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Hearing: 19th March 2009, day 30

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Thursday, 19 March 2009

commencing at 10.00 am

Day 30

2 Thursday, 19 March 2009

3 (10.00 am)

4 (Proceedings delayed)

5 (10.10 am)

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I call officer Constable Orr, please.

7 DAVID ALLAN ORR (sworn)

8 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

9 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood. I'm coming over from

10 this side. I'm Counsel to the Inquiry. I will ask some

11 questions to start with and it may well be you will be

12 asked some follow-up questions by others.

13 I won't ask you your full names, but can I get you

14 to identify a statement which has your names on? We

15 should see it on the screen at [81066]. Are those your

16 names at the top of it?

17 A. That's correct, yes.

18 Q. Can we flick through this statement quite quickly to see

19 if it is yours?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That is your statement, is it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it true?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. If we go back to the first page, [81066], at

1 paragraph 2 you tell us that you had served almost

2 30 years eventually and that, in the second sentence

3 there, you had received some initial training in scene

4 preservation. Is that initial training as a reservist

5 that you are talking about there or initial training as

6 a constable?

7 A. I would have said probably as a constable.

8 Q. So as of April 1997 had you had scene preservation

9 training, can you recall?

10 A. No, I can't recall, no.

11 Q. Okay. And looking further down on that paragraph, you

12 say in the final couple of sentences:

13 "The area ..."

14 This is the junction in Portadown:

15 "... was known as a flashpoint interface for

16 sectarian incidents on Friday and Saturday nights" and

17 there was always the potential at the weekends.

18 Before April 1997 had you personally had experience

19 of sectarian or any other violence in that area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can I put to you a suggestion made by one of the

22 witnesses, which is that basically, if you wanted to

23 fight on a Saturday night, this was the place to go

24 for it?

25 A. Well, not every Saturday night, but yes, it would have

1 been a good chance of it, yes.

2 Q. That witness also said that there were generally Land

3 Rover crews positioned there on public order duties.

4 Would that be correct?

5 A. Well, there would have been a Land Rover patrol in that

6 area, yes.

7 Q. And he made this suggestion -- let's see what you say

8 about this: that on more than one occasion in his

9 experience, the Land Rover crew would watch while

10 fighting took place. Can you comment on that?

11 A. I know personally, if there was fights taking place when

12 I was on, I would have been out.

13 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at page [03838]? If we

14 look at the final paragraph of that, this is a record

15 put together by a detective sergeant in June 1997 of the

16 vehicles arriving. It said:

17 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery

18 Mondeo, followed within seconds by the armoured Ford

19 Sierra. Both these vehicles parked at the junction of

20 Thomas Street/Market Street."

21 Then, "The third vehicle driven by..." -- it gives the

22 name:

23 "... states he drove through the crowd, turned right

24 opposite the church and drove back down through the

25 town, parking his vehicle at the junction of

1 Woodhouse Street/Market Street."

2 Is that your recollection, that you were in the

3 third vehicle arriving?

4 A. I don't know what particular order I arrived in.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I can't say that.

7 Q. When it speaks there of the route which you took:

8 "... drove through the crowd, turned right

9 opposite the church and drove back down through the town."

10 Is that right?

11 A. I believe it probably would be, if that's what I put in

12 my statement. I can't actually recall what it was.

13 Q. All right. You only give this detail if we go back to

14 your statement at [81067], bottom of the paragraph 4

15 there:

16 "We entered the town centre by Edward Street because

17 the town barriers were closed due to the security

18 situation. From Edward Street we turned left into the

19 High Street."

20 So if a detective has got the information from you,

21 in June 1997, that you carried on from turning left,

22 turned yourself around by the church and came back down

23 before you parked, that's likely to be true, is it?

24 A. It is quite possible, yes.

25 Q. Okay, thanks. And then looking at paragraph 5 in this

1 statement, you are talking here about Constable A and

2 a man called Wayne Lunt, and in the first sentence you

3 are informed that a notebook and statement records that

4 there was a man wearing a red, white and blue scarf,

5 holding a bottle upside down, and she later identified

6 that man as Wayne Lunt. You say you don't recall seeing

7 that man; you might have missed it. There were quite

8 a few men dressed in that way around town and there was

9 a lot going on. Do you mean by that you saw a lot of

10 men with what we now think to be a Rangers scarf on?

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That night?

12 MR UNDERWOOD: That night.

13 A. It would be a general -- it would be a general -- it

14 would have been a general sort of dress for youths at

15 that particular time. You would have got, you know,

16 more than one person wearing a Rangers scarf on

17 a Saturday.

18 Q. Is that your recollection of that evening, or just

19 a general --

20 A. Just a general feeling.

21 Q. Okay. Could you give us your recollection of what you

22 saw as you were driving through the town, if you have

23 one?

24 A. I can recall Constable A getting out of the vehicle

25 before me and where Constable A went, I don't know, I

1 can't say. I'm not sure whether I drove on after

2 Constable A got out. She may -- Constable A may have

3 got out, you know, prior to me parking the vehicle up.

4 Q. Okay. And if we go down to paragraph 6 of your

5 statement here, you say you parked the car in the area

6 of the central reservation and you have marked that on

7 a map. And you go on to say you saw a large crowd of

8 people, and later on in your statement you talk about

9 the police Land Rover.

10 Can I show you a model now, so we can get some

11 context for all this? I don't know whether you have

12 seen this model before, have you?

13 A. No, I haven't.

14 Q. If we just do a 360-degree pan, we can see it is taken

15 just outside Eastwoods and here we are just beginning to

16 look down Thomas Street, and here you are looking back

17 into Eastwoods itself.

18 Now it is looking up towards the church and here we

19 are looking over into Woodhouse Street. If we stop it

20 there, we have put a Land Rover there for the purpose of

21 asking witnesses whether it was there or somewhere else.

22 Can you recall for a start whether the Land Rover was

23 there or was it somewhere else?

24 A. I know there was a Land Rover in that particular area,

25 but exactly where it was I couldn't say.

1 Q. Fine. Can you show us or help us to see on here where

2 you ended up parking the car? Is it to the left of this

3 scene?

4 A. I think possibly it was over to the left somewhere.

5 Let's pan round.

6 Q. You may not be able to see it very easily here, but over

7 by Instep there there is a lay-by, a side road coming up

8 by Clarks?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So somewhere around there, around Instep perhaps?

11 A. I would say maybe towards the Alliance & Leicester

12 there.

13 Q. Okay. And there were people out -- you described them

14 as a large crowd of people at the junction with

15 aggressive behaviour. Do you mean spread around the

16 junction or were they concentrated anywhere?

17 A. They were all just in, you know, the general central

18 area between Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. More probably on the Thomas Street side.

21 Q. Right. You don't need to go back to it at the moment,

22 but in your statement at paragraph 7 you were saying

23 that there were about 30 to 35 Loyalists and about

24 15 Nationalists or so, and the Loyalists were shouting

25 "Fenian bastards" and you said it was a face-off towards

1 Loyalists with a few also of the police facing

2 Nationalists?

3 A. Yes, that would be right.

4 Q. Can you give us an impression of atmosphere?

5 A. It was tense, basically. You know -- I know from my

6 point of view I was trying to watch to prevent any

7 fights going on and prevent myself from getting hit as

8 well. It was quite likely that they would turn on us

9 too rather than --

10 Q. Would this be fair: that it was on the edge of violence,

11 but wasn't violence?

12 A. Just on the edge, I would say.

13 Q. Did you hear sectarian shouting on both sides?

14 A. There would have been, yes.

15 Q. And what were other officers doing?

16 A. I recall one officer with the two bodies that were on

17 the ground. There was one officer there. The rest were

18 basically doing the same as myself, just trying to

19 prevent any further incidents.

20 Q. Did you know who was in the police Land Rover in the

21 first place? Do you know the identity of the officers?

22 A. I do know now, but I didn't at that particular time.

23 Q. Knowing now who they were, did you see them out and

24 about?

25 A. Yes, they were.

1 Q. You told us that there was an officer with two bodies on

2 the ground. I'll get you in a moment, if you will, to

3 try and mark on this model where those bodies were, but

4 perhaps we can do a screen shot. But can you identify

5 who the officer was? Again, I don't want you to name

6 them.

7 A. Reserve Constable Silcock.

8 Q. That's fine, thank you. We need to take a snapshot, as

9 it were, of the scene in order to give you control of

10 the screen. Is the area that you are looking at now an

11 area in which the two bodies were or do we need to go

12 left or right?

13 A. I think probably it would be in that general area, yes.

14 Q. Okay. You have got control of the screen. If you want

15 to and if you feel able to, mark on it where you think

16 the bodies were.

17 A. Just this pen?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. It must have been around here somewhere.

20 Q. Were they both in that area?

21 A. I think -- yes, I think they were.

22 Q. Okay, thank you. Let's go back now, if we can, to your

23 statement at [81068]. At paragraph 8 you say you were

24 the most senior officer at the scene. It didn't seem to

25 be the worst public order incident you had seen, but it

1 had the potential to be serious. And you go on to say

2 that you instructed an officer -- it is Reserve Constable

3 Warnock as we call him now -- to return to the police

4 station and sign out a riot gun.

5 Give us an impression, please, of what sort of

6 seriousness of situation you would have had to judge

7 something to be in order to instruct someone to get

8 a riot gun in 1997?

9 A. Well, basically my opinion of it was I thought there was

10 potential for it to turn more serious, and with the lack

11 of numbers we had on the ground, I just thought possibly

12 the sight even of a riot gun at the scene may put people

13 off from escalating the trouble.

14 Q. Presumably there were regulations concerning the use and

15 acquisition of riot guns, were there?

16 A. There probably would have been.

17 Q. They weren't just carried as a matter of course, then?

18 A. No, they weren't.

19 Q. And how common would it have been in a public order

20 situation for you to send out for a riot gun?

21 A. It would never have been my responsibility to do that,

22 but because I was the senior person on the ground at

23 that particular time, I took that action.

24 Q. Right. We know that the officer who went to get it,

25 Reserve Constable Warnock, was driven there by somebody

1 else. Have you any idea why two officers went?

2 A. Probably to save time, I would imagine.

3 Q. Okay. And we have your description of the two men on

4 the ground. We have your description of the situation

5 generally. Were the two men on the ground attacked, as

6 far as you were aware?

7 A. I can't recall them being attacked when I was there. I

8 didn't see that.

9 Q. I'm so sorry. Did you see them under any threat? Was

10 anybody trying to get at them, in other words?

11 A. I didn't think so, but that's not to say that they

12 wouldn't have tried to get at them, you know. But

13 because we were there trying to see the two factions

14 apart, I don't think it happened.

15 Q. And if we turn over to page [81069], in the first

16 paragraph on that page -- it is a continuation of

17 paragraph 9 -- you talk about nobody assaulting or

18 attempting to assault the two men on the ground at that

19 stage, but there was a crowd of people a matter of yards

20 from them and you think there was a police officer with

21 the two injured men and you became subsequently aware

22 that it was the person we are now calling Reserve Constable Silcock.

23 You told us earlier on that you saw an officer with

24 the men?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it right that you didn't know who he was at that

2 stage?

3 A. That probably would have been right. He was just

4 a police officer.

5 Q. Okay. You finish that paragraph by saying:

6 "I recall seeing an ambulance at the scene, but

7 having refreshed my memory from my notebook, I think

8 there were two ambulances there."

9 What is your memory about that, was it one or two?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Right. Then going to paragraph 10, you tell us that

12 after some minutes an inspector and a sergeant arrived

13 at the scene. Did anybody brief them when they arrived,

14 as far as you were aware?

15 A. I can't recall anybody briefing them, no.

16 Q. Okay. Then moving on in that paragraph, the Inspector

17 ordered the police officers to move the Loyalists up

18 towards West Street and you assisted the officers in

19 doing so. And you say there:

20 "We moved the Loyalist crowd further away from the

21 men on the ground."

22 Was that the aim, to get them away from the men on

23 the ground, or was --

24 A. Getting clear probably of the area would not be a bad

25 way to describe it, to get them clear of the area.

1 Q. Okay. And officers were using batons, I think. Is that

2 right?

3 A. Certainly there probably would have been batons

4 produced.

5 Q. We know from a baton report that you drew yours. I

6 don't think you used it?

7 A. I didn't use it. I did not have to use it.

8 Q. How common would it have been in a public order

9 situation to have to draw the baton at all?

10 A. It just depends what sort of a situation it would be.

11 You know, you might never get close enough to use it

12 because people back off you -- throw stones, bottles,

13 et cetera, and back away. It just depends. If somebody

14 gets close enough, you use it.

15 Q. The reason I'm asking these questions is that the Panel

16 want to gauge how riotous this situation was, how

17 frightening, how big, how out of control, how difficult

18 it was to manage, and when you were up close with these

19 people on the street, moving them back, does the fact

20 that you had to draw your baton give any impression, or

21 should it give any impression, of how seriously you took

22 the threat to you?

23 A. I probably would have had the baton out for my own

24 safety, and if anybody had have attacked me, it would

25 have been used, but it didn't happen.

1 Q. Okay. The constable who was with you, who you know we

2 are now calling Constable A, has described this

3 situation as a riot. I asked her whether it was an

4 affray; she said it was much worse than that, it was

5 a riot. I think "serious riot" is what she said. Would

6 you accept that sort of phrase?

7 A. It wouldn't have been the worst riot situation.

8 Q. Okay. I'm not asking to you single out individuals in

9 the crowd on this question, but can I put this question

10 to you: were you aware that people in the crowd were

11 committing arrestable offences?

12 A. It depends what you call an arrestable offence.

13 Certainly from the violence point of view --

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. -- I would say I didn't see anybody committing anything

16 of that nature, but for -- you know, this sort of

17 behaviour, certainly, yes.

18 Q. So no worse than that, not affray, for example?

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. Okay?

21 A. Possibly.

22 Q. Thank you. Had you been policing in Portadown very

23 often in your police duties prior to April 1997?

24 A. I spent most of my career in and around Portadown,

25 Craigavon.

1 Q. Is it right you only recognised Noelle Moore, I think?

2 A. That's the only one that I recognised.

3 Q. Is that because you were just so busy that you weren't

4 pinning your attention on individuals or that nobody you

5 recognised turned up?

6 A. Basically I think it was a case of having recently dealt

7 with that particular person is why I recognised her.

8 Q. If we go down to paragraph 13, you comment in your

9 statement for us that you had been asked now whether you

10 knew Allister Hanvey, Marc Hobson, Rory Robinson

11 Wayne Lunt or Stacey Bridgett, and essentially you say

12 no. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, that would be correct. And if -- I would know the

14 names now, but if the people were here in this room, I

15 couldn't point out and say that was one particular

16 person. I don't know.

17 Q. If we go over the page to [81070] then, paragraph 16,

18 you comment on your notebook, recording that at 05.30

19 you instructed the town street cleaner to avoid the

20 junction and you assume you were directed to do that.

21 We know, over at paragraph 17 [81071], you say that you in

22 fact taped off the scene at 07:25 with Constable A. Is

23 there some reason why the scene wasn't taped off

24 earlier?

25 A. Well, any other situation where there would have been an

1 assault, you know, previously, people were taken to

2 hospital, it hasn't resulted in just being a serious

3 incident and we didn't believe obviously at that time

4 that it was going to be a serious incident. And,

5 therefore, that's probably why it wasn't taped off.

6 Q. Would this be fair, then: that at the point when, 05:30,

7 you told the street cleaners not to sweep it up, you

8 didn't think it worth taping off because you weren't

9 aware it was a serious assault?

10 A. I wasn't aware myself, no.

11 Q. Did you carry out any examination of the scene at any

12 stage for glass or blood?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you trained to do that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. If we go down on page [81071] to paragraph 20, you say

17 at the start of that:

18 "When we returned to the station, a CID officer

19 requested that we complete our notebooks and make

20 statements."

21 Was that it?

22 A. That was it, yes.

23 Q. That was the extent of the debriefing?

24 A. That would have been it.

25 Q. And if we go over the page to [81072], you talk about --

1 in paragraph 23 -- an allegation that was made against

2 you -- of which I should make it entirely clear you were

3 acquitted -- that you failed to obey a lawful order to

4 obtain the clothing belonging to the two injured men.

5 Do you have any recollection at all of being given that

6 order?

7 A. That order was never given to me. If it had have been,

8 I would have carried it out.

9 Q. Because, in fact, you were at the hospital?

10 A. I was at the hospital.

11 Q. But on another matter?

12 A. On another matter, yes.

13 Q. There is another civilian who has given evidence here

14 a couple of weeks ago who says that -- this is

15 a Catholic -- when the two men on the ground were being

16 attacked, or rather when one of the men on the ground

17 was being attacked and kicked, that he and police

18 officers pulled attackers off the man on the ground.

19 Were you aware of any of that?

20 A. That certainly wasn't me. I didn't see that happening.

21 Q. There is one other matter I'm going to ask you, officer,

22 which I have asked every serving officer who turned up

23 on the scene, which is that there has obviously been an

24 allegation of sectarianism against the RUC in the way in

25 which at least the four in the Land Rover dealt with the

1 incident on the night. Did you do or fail to do

2 anything as a result of sectarian views?

3 A. No, absolutely not.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

5 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

7 Questions by MR McGRORY

8 MR McGRORY: Just a very few questions, sir. I just want to

9 ask you some few questions on behalf the Hamill family,

10 Constable Orr, just taking you to that complaints procedure

11 in respect of -- during which you were interviewed about

12 a number of matters, including the suggestion that you

13 were directed to go to the hospital and collect the

14 clothing. That investigation took place in or about

15 2001. Do you have a recollection as to why you were

16 investigated for that particular issue?

17 A. I assume it was because the inspector alleged that I did

18 or was given an order but that didn't happen.

19 Q. Yes. He in fact has a note in his notebook that he did

20 do that, direct you to go to the hospital, and he was

21 interviewed about this at page [10372]. It is

22 page [10372], the very top of that.

23 The preceding page, [10371], at the bottom of it, it

24 sort of really introduces this topic where he says it is

25 his writing -- this is a Police Inspector McCrum.

1 Do you want to have a look at your cipher list, please,

2 [Inspector McCrum]?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recognise the name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes. As the senior officer, the duty inspector that

7 night?

8 A. He was, yes.

9 Q. Yes. Now, at the bottom of that page he says -- he is

10 referring to his notebook:

11 "When I read this from my journal, I can see I have

12 written it as Constable Orr."

13 But it is conceivable there was a suggestion that it

14 might have been a different constable, but he said it

15 was definitely you.

16 If we go over the page to [10372], he said it was

17 definitely you. So he told the investigators in 2001,

18 a few weeks before you were interviewed, that it was

19 definitely you that he sent to the hospital when he was

20 asked about that. You are absolutely categorically sure

21 that you were not given that instruction?

22 A. I definitely wasn't given that instruction at all.

23 MR McGRORY: Yes. Yes, thank you. No further questions.

24 Questions by MS DINSMORE

25 MS DINSMORE: Constable, is it correct to say that you recall

1 seeing Reserve Constable Atkinson at the scene?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that you observed him assisting the rest of you in

4 separating the crowds?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. And there wasn't anything of other note that you

7 observed?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And that you did not see him talking to anyone at the

10 scene, in any manner that you recall?

11 A. No, no.

12 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.

13 Questions by MR McCOMB

14 MR McCOMB: Just one or two small questions. You have

15 described the crowds as variously, perhaps 30 to

16 35 Loyalists and about 50 Nationalists, and I think also

17 in your statement to the Inquiry you noticed that there

18 were skirmishes going on when you arrived. Is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you say where the Nationalists were? Were they in

22 a group themselves or were they spread out?

23 A. There would have been some in the area where the two

24 people were lying and then spread out over towards

25 Woodhouse Street.

1 Q. So somewhere near the mouth of Thomas Street?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And were they shouting as well as the Protestants?

4 A. They would have been, yes.

5 Q. May I just ask: when you arrived, you came from about

6 four and a half miles away, I think?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you received the call and you came through the town

9 and you came down Edward Street and then you turned

10 left?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you describe driving through the crowd, as I think

13 Constable A, whom you were driving, she said --

14 described that yesterday. When you say you drove

15 through the crowd, was that the crowd who are near the

16 junction of Thomas Street?

17 A. Well, it would -- probably -- you would have had to go

18 past Thomas Street on that side of the road, I think, to

19 go round the church and back up again.

20 Q. Right, and that would take you past Thornton's shop; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I can't remember where Thornton's shop was, but I assume

23 it probably was.

24 Q. You yourself didn't see the person who we now know to be

25 Mr Lunt?

1 A. As I say, I don't know Mr Lunt.

2 Q. You didn't know him?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All you can recall really is that -- did you stop the

5 car for Constable A to get out?

6 A. I think I let Constable A out and then I parked the

7 car up.

8 Q. Yes. Did you park it up near the church then or did you

9 come back down --

10 A. I think it was further on down, I think. I can't

11 honestly say at this time.

12 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.

13 Questions by MR ADAIR

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?

15 MR ADAIR: There's just a few matters I want to ask you

16 about, Constable Orr.

17 Now, you left the scene at about what time

18 approximately? When I say "the scene", I mean

19 Thomas Street/Woodhouse Street area. Can you remember?

20 A. No, I couldn't say exactly what time it was. I don't

21 know how long I was there and I don't know what time

22 I left at.

23 Q. We know from your notebook that you attended at the

24 scene of a road traffic accident at about 2.55 am?

25 A. That probably would be right.

1 Q. So presumably then you had left -- does that help you

2 maybe on what time you left?

3 A. Well, obviously it was prior to that.

4 Q. Yes. And at that road -- can you remember what that

5 road traffic accident was? Was it one car, two cars,

6 three cars?

7 A. I can't recall, but from my statement I think it was

8 a three-car -- you know, I'm just -- I can't recall at

9 this time, but I'm just working back from the statement

10 I have seen.

11 Q. I understand. And were you accompanied to that accident

12 by Constable A?

13 A. I was, yes.

14 Q. And can you help us where you went from the accident?

15 Did you go back to the station? Was there a drink

16 driving procedure?

17 A. There was a drink driving procedure carried out at the

18 hospital later on. Just at this particular time I can't

19 remember whether we went back to the station for a drink

20 driving procedure, I don't know. I think the sergeant,

21 Sergeant P89, possibly had something to do with that.

22 Q. Yes. If you look at your statement at paragraph 15 --

23 unfortunately I do not have page numbers on mine. If

24 you could help, Mr Underwood?

25 MR UNDERWOOD: Page [81070].

1 MR ADAIR: Thank you very much. You can see you say in this

2 statement that from your notebook, you see:

3 "... the road traffic accident was at about 02:55.

4 I think Sergeant P89 also arrived at the road

5 traffic incident at one point. With the follow-up

6 investigations and preliminary breath tests procedures,

7 I would imagine that we were dealing with the RTA for

8 about three hours."

9 Is that right?

10 A. That would be possible, yes.

11 Q. Is that back at the station or is that somewhere else?

12 A. I would imagine it was, including the procedure that was

13 carried out at the hospital as well --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: (inaudible) time at the roadside, at the

15 accident?

16 A. No, we wouldn't have been at the roadside for that

17 particular time --

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that three hours include --

19 A. Yes, yes, yes.

20 MR ADAIR: And we know -- you have been asked about this by

21 Mr Underwood -- that you were at Craigavon Area Hospital

22 at some stage that morning. Was that at about 6 am that

23 morning for a breath test procedure?

24 A. There was a breath test carried out, yes. I think it

25 possibly was in or around that time.

1 Q. And then the next thing we know about your movements

2 is -- sorry, we are going back half an hour. We know

3 that you have told us from your statement that at 05:30

4 you instructed the road cleaners not to go near the

5 Thomas Street/Woodhouse Street area?

6 A. That's right, yes.

7 Q. Was Constable A with you at that time?

8 A. Constable A was with me all night.

9 Q. All night?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I just want to ask you briefly then about the fact

12 of you making a statement that morning. Can you tell us

13 what your practice was first of all in relation to

14 filling in your notebook at the end of a shift? Would

15 you fill it in at the end of the shift or the next day,

16 or what? When would you fill it in?

17 A. Possibly being on night duty, I may have filled it in

18 prior to the start of the next night turn, but I think

19 that particular morning we were asked for copies of our

20 notebooks before we left the station.

21 Q. Would you normally have made a witness statement

22 concerning a public order incident before you went home

23 at the end of your shift?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were asked to in this instance, as we know?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I want to ask you about -- you are about 30 years in the

3 police; is that right?

4 A. That's right, yes.

5 Q. You are retired now I think about three years ago; is

6 that right?

7 A. That's correct, yes.

8 Q. And from what you have told us this obviously isn't the

9 worst public order/riot situation you have been in?

10 A. That's right, yes.

11 Q. Have you been in other situations where people have been

12 injured in public order/riot situations?

13 A. I've been in situations where hand grenades have been

14 thrown at us.

15 Q. Can you help us about debriefing? Have you ever been

16 debriefed after such public order incidents?

17 A. I don't really understand what debrief -- when you say

18 debrief, what a debrief is.

19 Q. Well, let me try some potential scenarios. Have you

20 ever, for example, been taken into a room -- first of

21 all, let's try this scenario -- individually, just by

22 yourself and talked to by a CID man or an inspector or

23 a sergeant about what you had seen or who you had seen

24 and so on, after such an incident?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Had you ever been brought in collectively, if there had

2 been a group of officers out on the street involved in

3 a public order situation? Had you ever been brought in

4 collectively so that that officer could glean from all

5 of you what you had seen or who you had seen?

6 A. It would go to the extent more of being possibly all the

7 section being brought together and saying will you do

8 statements. You know, if there had have been an

9 incident of a serious nature, would you do a statement.

10 And that's what I would have considered a debrief, you

11 know, having to write your statement following the

12 incident, you know.

13 Q. Immediately following the incident?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So at the risk of leading you at all, but does it follow

16 then from what you say logically that you regarded the

17 making of the statement in this instance as

18 a debriefing?

19 A. I would say that would probably be the extent of the

20 debriefing, as far as I would be concerned, yes.

21 Q. The final thing I want to ask you about -- and

22 Mr Underwood has touched upon it -- you received in 2001

23 the Form 17/3 making specific allegations against you

24 and challenging your integrity; is that right?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

1 Q. How did you feel about receiving that after virtually

2 30 years in the police?

3 A. Well, I wasn't particularly pleased about it because

4 I know it didn't happen. You know, I know in my own

5 mind that I was never asked to get the clothing from

6 Mr Hamill in the hospital. It never happened.

7 Q. Yes, but were there other allegations made against you

8 in the --

9 A. There may have been.

10 Q. Could you just bring up [10710], please? You will see

11 that -- can you confirm, is this the 17/3 you received?

12 A. That would be it, yes.

13 Q. So the first allegation that was put to you was that you

14 neglected your duty by failing to properly secure the

15 scene and preserve it for expert examination. Is that

16 right?

17 A. I was never asked to do it. You know, when we left the

18 scene, we were carrying on with our normal duty as we

19 were detailed that night. We weren't told to stay at

20 that scene and do that. We were told to carry on with

21 normal duty.

22 Q. And then it was alleged that you failed to mention in

23 your statement the involvement with Wayne Lunt seen

24 carrying a bottle, and so on?

25 A. I didn't know Wayne Lunt.

1 Q. Yes. And then the third allegation is the one you have

2 referred to about getting the clothing. I think it has

3 been perhaps -- did you receive formal or informal

4 notification that there would be no further action

5 taken?

6 A. I can't remember whether I did or not.

7 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

8 Further questions by MR McGRORY

9 MR McGRORY: Sir, if I could ask for permission to ask a few

10 short questions arising from the last series of

11 questions asked by Mr Adair? This is in the context of

12 the timing and the fact that there was a further

13 investigation in respect of the complaints.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, very well then.

15 MR McGRORY: Yes. I'm obliged.

16 Constable Orr, we know that this investigation that took

17 place in 2001, that you are unhappy about it. But of

18 course you were exonerated in that investigation, were

19 you not?

20 A. I believe so, yes.

21 Q. Now, are you also aware that there were allegations of

22 serious misconduct in respect of a police officer in the

23 Land Rover?

24 A. I am now, yes.

25 Q. Yes. When did you become aware of those allegations?

1 A. Probably after -- you know, well after the incident.

2 Q. Yes. Were you aware that there was a complaint in 1997

3 about -- that centred on the --

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's a question which should be

5 directed to someone who really can deal with. There are

6 senior officers you will be able to ask about that.

7 MR McGRORY: Yes. Sir, perhaps this witness could be

8 excused. I would like to make a brief submission about

9 the relevance of these questions.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not concerned about the relevance. I'm

11 simply concerned about to whom you are addressing them.

12 MR McGRORY: Yes. Reserve Constable Silcock, what is your

13 view of a police officer who would use his position to

14 notify a suspect of how to escape detection?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, this question has been asked

16 a number of times already, happily not repeated until

17 you began. What's its purpose? Is it to tell us how

18 disgraceful such conduct would be? Because I don't think

19 any decent person would need any persuasion of that.

20 MR McGRORY: It is a question that has been asked by my

21 learned friend Mr Adair.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: I know it is.

23 MR McGRORY: And the purpose of the question, as I saw it,

24 when asked by Mr Adair -- well, I'm not quite sure what

25 Mr Adair's purpose was other than perhaps to elicit from

1 this witness that that's not something he would

2 countenance. But the relevance of it is this, sir: that

3 if Mr Adair is to be permitted to ask a witness such as

4 this, who has been subject to the investigation in 2001,

5 albeit exonerated, and that in the context that witness

6 was unhappy about being investigated at all, then in my

7 respectful submission it is not inappropriate to ask the

8 witness some questions about whether or not he has

9 a difficulty about there being an independent

10 investigation into police misconduct.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a different matter. You can ask him

12 that.

13 MR McGRORY: If I may be permitted to do so.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We really don't want to know from any other

15 officers how they regard misconduct by a police officer

16 of the nature alleged. We can form our own view about

17 that.

18 MR McGRORY: Yes, I'm grateful for that indication and

19 perhaps the question won't be asked again.

20 Do you understand what I'm asking you, Constable Orr,

21 that there was an investigation, a complaints investigation,

22 in 1997, which was inconclusive? Were you aware that

23 the Ombudsman was appointed in 2000?

24 A. Well, I assume he was appointed at some stage. I don't

25 know what particular date it was.

1 Q. Were you aware that the investigation in 2001, which

2 resulted in the serving on you of this notice that you

3 were shown, was supervised by the Ombudsman's office?

4 A. It is quite possible, yes.

5 Q. And you were exonerated in this investigation. Have you

6 any difficulty about the fact that you were asked to

7 clear up the suggestion that police officers didn't do

8 what they were supposed too?

9 A. I have no difficulty with that at all.

10 MR McGRORY: No. Thank you.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood?

12 MR UNDERWOOD: So sorry. I'm just considering whether it is

13 actually right to say that the Ombudsman supervised this

14 investigation, and I'm not clear that it was. But

15 perhaps we can save that -- there is nothing arising,

16 thank you.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You were asked and you said you hadn't seen

18 Reserve Constable Atkinson talking to anyone.

19 A. I didn't notice --

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, but how constantly would he be --

21 A. That's the thing, you know. I wouldn't have seen him --

22 you know, it was police on the ground. He may have

23 talked to somebody, he may not, but I wasn't

24 particularly paying attention to what he was doing. I

25 was paying attention to what I was doing.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

3 Sir, the next witness is Reserve Constable Warnock,

4 but I see the time. I suspect we will be asked for a

5 break quite shortly if I call him now, so perhaps this

6 might be a convenient moment.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 15 minutes.

8 (10.55 am)

9 (Short break)

10 (11.19 am)

11 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Paul Warnock, please.

12 PAUL WARNOCK (sworn)

13 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. My name is Underwood, I'm Counsel to the Inquiry. I'm

17 going to ask the questions to start with.

18 I won't ask you your names, but what I will ask you

19 to do is to show you a statement to ask you if it

20 contains your names. It should be on the screen at

21 [81238]. Are those your names on the top there?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. If we flick through this statement quite quickly, I just

24 want you to identify at the end whether it is your

25 statement?

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. Is it true?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you to amplify some parts

5 of it. Can we start at page [81238]. We don't need to

6 highlight this, but at the bottom of paragraph 2 you

7 say:

8 "Although it was possible to have lessons in scene

9 preservation, I can't recall receiving any training in

10 this skill."

11 I just want you to look at your training record at

12 page [72556] to identify that that is in fact your

13 record. We can go on to the second page as well, if you

14 want to see that. Does that represent the training you

15 have had?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just to page [72556], if we can look at that other page,

18 three quarters of the way down, there is a entry for

19 25.01.1996, "PACE DNA samples". Do you see that one?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's the nearest one I can find anything to do with

22 forensics. Is that anything to do with scene

23 preservation?

24 A. Not that I'm aware of.

25 Q. Okay, thank you. If we go back to your statement then,

1 please, at page [81239], in paragraph 4 you say during

2 your time with the force you carried out patrols in the

3 area around Market Street, Thomas Street, High Street

4 and Woodhouse Street and that it was known to be

5 a flashpoint for sectarian incidents. Can I put to you

6 what a witness has told us about this area, that it was

7 the place to go if you wanted to have a fight on

8 a Saturday night?

9 A. On a Friday or Saturday night you would have had

10 different incidents in that area and that location.

11 Q. Let me see what you can say about another comment that

12 same witness made. He said that on more than one

13 occasion he saw a police Land Rover there with officers

14 in it while fighting was going on and the officers sat

15 and watched the fighting. Have you any experience of

16 that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Then if we look at paragraph 5, you tell us who

19 you were on duty with, and can you tell us what the call

20 sign was? Can you recall that?

21 A. I don't recall the call sign, no.

22 Q. Do you recall what sort of car it was?

23 A. It was an armoured car.

24 Q. Okay. Who was driving it?

25 A. Constable ...

1 Q. You need to ...

2 A. ... [Cooke].

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Does armoured car mean an ordinary civilian

5 car but fitted with armour?

6 A. That would be correct, yes. Or a saloon car that would

7 have been armoured.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: And do you know whether you were the first

9 back-up car to arrive?

10 A. No, I think we were second.

11 Q. Okay. You tell us, across the course of that page of

12 your statement and the next page, what you saw when you

13 arrived, and I want to ask you to look at a model for us

14 to see whether we can identify positions. We can pan

15 this round 360 degrees so you can orientate yourself.

16 If we stop it there again, was the Land Rover there or

17 somewhere else?

18 A. As far as I can remember, the Land Rover was more at

19 this location here.

20 Q. Sorry, we can give you a screen shot so you can mark on

21 it for us. It will take a few seconds. Right, you have

22 got control now, you can mark on it with the pen.

23 A. More in front of the Halifax.

24 Q. Right, okay. Thank you. We will give that a number 1

25 for the record.

1 You tell us in your statement that you saw a crowd,

2 a large crowd in fact, in the area of the crossroads.

3 Was it in one part of the crossroads or was it milling

4 about, or what?

5 A. It was milling about and it would have been more to this

6 side here.

7 Q. Okay, thank you. Call that number 2?

8 THE CHAIRMAN: We are on the Thomas Street side?

9 A. It would be the Market Street side -- no, both sides of

10 the central reservation.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Do you want to do a scrawl around there

12 because I don't think it is marking otherwise. Thank

13 you very much. Call that number 2.

14 You saw two men on the ground, you tell us. Can you

15 help us with where they were?

16 A. Can we pan to the right slightly, please?

17 Q. We need to get out of the screen shot to do that, but

18 yes. I think we should be able to pan now.

19 A. The other direction, please. That will do, thank you.

20 Q. Again, we need to get the screen shot for you to be in

21 control.

22 A. One person was -- sorry.

23 Q. Sorry. Right, you have got it again.

24 A. One person was in or around this location here and the

25 second person, I think, if I remember correctly, was in

1 or around that location.

2 Q. Thank you very much. If we call the one on the right

3 number 3 and the one on the left number 4. Right. Can

4 we go back to your statement then, please, [81240]?

5 Paragraph 8, you say once you had got out of the car you

6 saw some other police officers:

7 "There were about four or five other officers, but

8 at the start I could not tell who they were."

9 Do you now know which officers had been in the Land

10 Rover in the first place?

11 A. I know now who had been in the Land Rover, yes.

12 Q. Now that you know that, can you tell us whether the

13 officers you first saw out, when you arrived, included

14 Land Rover officers?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All of the Land Rover officers?

17 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. What were crowd doing for a start?

19 A. The crowd was approximately 20 or 25 feet back from the

20 line of police officers, milling about, shouting.

21 Q. So the officers -- you say, a line of police officers.

22 Were they in a formal line?

23 A. Yes, basically they were spread out across from the

24 junction of Thomas Street to the opposite side of the

25 road, which would have been Woodhouse Street.

1 Q. Right. What was the atmosphere?

2 A. The crowd was milling about and basically shouting and

3 it was noisy.

4 Q. Was there a second and smaller crowd, or was it just one

5 big crowd milling about and a line of police officers?

6 A. The crowd that was to the front, to the front of the

7 line of police officers, was one, basically, big crowd.

8 And as far as I can remember, there was a smaller number

9 of people actually in Woodhouse Street.

10 Q. Right. And were the officers between the crowd and the

11 men on the ground?

12 A. The gentlemen that were lying on the ground?

13 Q. Yes, sorry.

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. Was there sectarian chanting or swearing?

16 A. Both.

17 Q. On both sides?

18 A. It seemed to be mainly coming from the crowd to the

19 front.

20 Q. Okay. And looking at your paragraph 10, you say you

21 didn't approach the individuals lying on the ground

22 because within a few seconds other police officers

23 arrived. And you saw an officer, whose name you give

24 there, run to person number 1 and he appeared to put

25 that person in the recovery position. Had you in fact

1 had first aid training?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then if we go over the page to [81241], paragraph 12,

4 you say there:

5 "I could tell that the Loyalist crowd was the one on

6 the main street by what they were shouting and perhaps

7 by some of the tee shirts that they were wearing. For

8 example, some of them may have been wearing a Rangers

9 football top."

10 You tell us later on that you didn't see anybody at

11 the scene in a Rangers scarf. Is that still your

12 recollection?

13 A. I don't recollect anybody in a Rangers scarf.

14 Q. Thank you. If we look at paragraph 13 you say:

15 "I do not recall any fighting occurring between

16 members of the crowd or any assaulting of police

17 officers. The only thing I remember seeing was

18 Constable A getting hold of a boy and bringing him

19 towards the Land Rover."

20 Do you remember anything about that boy? You go on

21 to say you now know him to be Wayne Lunt, but can you

22 recall anything about what he was wearing?

23 A. Not at the moment.

24 Q. Okay. Another civilian witness, who is a Catholic, has

25 given evidence about an attack on one of the men on the

1 ground in which about eight people were kicking him, and

2 he says that he and police officers pulled the kickers

3 away from the person on the ground. Did you see any of

4 that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. If we go to page [81243], at paragraph 16 you are

7 telling us there that you were directed to return to the

8 police station to sign out a baton gun by the person you

9 regarded as the senior officer at the time. With the

10 assistance of that, can you tell us whether, in your

11 view, it was actually a riot? I don't mean in any

12 formal or legal term, but just to give us an impression

13 of it?

14 A. At the time, whenever I was told to do that, the crowd

15 was in front of the police line, the crowd -- the number

16 in crowd and the number of policemen -- and I was in --

17 that's why I was directed to go and get the baton gun.

18 If the crowd had decided to come towards police,

19 basically the number of police that was there and the

20 size of the crowd, you would have been outnumbered in

21 the region of a six to one ratio.

22 Q. So would it be fair to say that, as far as you were

23 concerned, a riot gun was a precautionary measure?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us why you were driven back to get it,

1 because that took two officers off the scene?

2 A. Yes. Well, the time you would have run back, signed the

3 gun out -- and you also have a box to carry, which has

4 25 baton rounds in it, which is heavy enough as it is on

5 its own. It is handier to be able to leave the box,

6 take so many rounds out of that and leave the box in the

7 police vehicle.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that mean that someone stayed in the

9 police vehicle at the scene of the disturbance?

10 A. No, the police vehicle would have been locked.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I haven't quite followed then how it was

12 appropriate to have two people going to fetch the baton?

13 A. It was a quicker method to be driven back to the police

14 station than running back and having to run back down.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you perhaps haven't followed the

16 question. Not why it was necessary to drive to the

17 police station; why the driver couldn't have been the

18 man to go into the police station to get the gun.

19 A. Unless he has been trained, he wouldn't have been able

20 to sign the gun out.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: You were qualified, I gather?

23 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: May I ask, is a riot gun and

24 a baton gun one and the same thing?

25 A. Yes, it used to be known many years ago as a federal

1 riot gun and then a new gun, a new version, was issued

2 to the police and it has been basically named a baton

3 gun.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you have driven the car that went to

5 the police station for the riot gun?

6 A. Yes, I could have, yes.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: So that would involve only one officer

8 leaving those who were quite hard pressed? That's

9 right, is it?

10 A. That's correct. I'm just actually trying to remember

11 actually why I was police driver at the time.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Let me tease that out a bit more. Did you

14 have to have a qualification in order to be able to

15 drive a police vehicle?

16 A. That's correct. You have to pass a test.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have that qualification?

18 A. I'm trying to remember whether I was actually a police

19 driver at that time. I since have sat the standard

20 police driving course.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Would that have shown up in your personal

22 record if you had had that training?

23 A. Yes, it should.

24 Q. If we look at page 72256 -- of course this is in

25 reverse order. The last entry on there before 27 April

1 is 17 April, where the course title is "RUC KUF". Do

2 you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Perhaps you would just like to have a look over that and

5 the next page to see if there is anything in there that

6 represents a qualification for driving a police vehicle.

7 A. There is nothing that I can see, and I don't know what

8 "KUF" stands for.

9 SIR JOHN EVANS: It is KUF driving, is it?

10 A. It likely is.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: You were qualified to get a riot gun, you

12 weren't qualified to drive and get it? Are those

13 accurate?

14 A. That's a possibility. I can't remember whether I was

15 a police driver at the time.

16 Q. Were you the only one on the scene with a riot gun, as

17 far as you were aware?

18 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

19 Q. Perhaps we could have a look at page 45192. This is

20 a document that has only just been made material and

21 I suspect no one else will have looked at this.

22 I gather it has to be opened as a pdf.

23 This we take to be the RUC code for dealing with

24 riot guns at the time, and if we look at paragraph 2

25 again:

1 "Authority for riot guns must only be issued to

2 those members who have been trained in their use and are

3 aware of their characteristics ...

4 "(b) Riot guns are issued: (i) for defence of

5 station from attack by a mob; (ii) on directions of

6 person in charge of demonstrations where disorder is

7 anticipated; (iii) on direction of the divisional

8 commander to routine patrols in areas subject to

9 sporadic outbursts of disorder."

10 As far as you can tell, is (b)(ii) the nearest one

11 to the situation you were faced with?

12 A. Yes, that would be correct.

13 Q. And then while we have got this open, if we look over

14 the page, page 45193?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: It hardly covers it because it wasn't

16 a disorder at which any police officer was in charge.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: No. You give in your statement an account of

18 what you then did with the riot gun later on, but while

19 we have got this open, let's have a look at this. Under

20 (a):

21 "When circumstances permit, a warning should be

22 given before baton rounds are fired. If not given

23 initially, the warning should be given at the earliest

24 opportunity by the senior member present. A record of

25 words used when giving the warning should be kept. The

1 warning should be in the following words:

2 "'Attention, attention. This is a police officer

3 speaking. Unless you stop rioting immediately, baton

4 rounds will [perhaps again] be fired. No further

5 warning will be given.'.

6 "Unless otherwise directed by the divisional

7 commander, the senior member at the location of the

8 disorder will be responsible for authorising use

9 thereafter. The member in charge of the party carrying

10 riot guns will be responsible for directing the firing

11 of baton rounds."

12 If we now go back to your statement at

13 page [81243] --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Just --

15 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: That warning would need some form of public

17 address -- no doubt handheld system, wouldn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I doubt whether you would be heard by many

20 without.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps you could deal with this, officer.

22 Was this a situation in which somebody could be speaking

23 loudly enough to make that warning heard without

24 a megaphone?

25 A. If you shouted loud enough. Whether anybody would have

1 heard you is another question, I'm sorry, I can't

2 answer.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: It sounds like a warning intended to be

4 delivered by a public address system.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Looking at your paragraph 18, you tell us

6 there that you went back with the gun slung. Then over

7 the page at page [81244], in that first paragraph --

8 perhaps we can amplify that -- halfway down you say, on

9 the right-hand side:

10 "As far as I remember, I was the only officer with

11 a baton gun at the scene. When I arrived, I issued

12 a warning the crowd. I shouted something along the

13 lines of, 'Cease, move away, break up or baton rounds

14 may be used'. The gun had an effect. I think some of

15 the crowd saw the baton gun and drifted away, then

16 stayed away."

17 Can you help us with whether this code that we have

18 been looking at was followed? Was there a senior member

19 directing you? Was there somebody to authorise you to

20 use it?

21 A. There was -- you know, the senior constable at the time

22 who directed that I go and get the baton gun, which is

23 Constable Orr, whenever I arrived back he would have been aware

24 that I was back and had the gun with me.

25 Q. But did he have anything to do with it? Did he tell you

1 to shoot or not shoot?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Right. Can we move on over to page [81245]? I want to

4 spend some time on paragraph 21. You say you saw

5 Allister Hanvey, although you couldn't remember his name

6 at the time, and another youth. In fact, that youth,

7 P51 there, is called Hill.

8 You tell us further down in the statement that

9 Hanvey was a prominent figure, basically at the front of

10 the crowd and shouting and roaring at everybody in the

11 police lines. What would you say to the suggestion that

12 he wasn't there at all?

13 A. No. As far as I remember, he was definitely there.

14 Q. And definitely shouting and roaring and at the front of

15 the crowd?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was it that that brought him to your attention or did

18 you recall him being there for some other reason?

19 A. There was just -- him being at the front of the crowd

20 and what he was doing brought him to my attention.

21 Q. You say you couldn't remember his name at the time, but

22 you later did come to describe him by name and make

23 statements about him. How did that gap get bridged?

24 How is it that you recognised him but didn't remember

25 his name at the time?

1 A. I seen him. I knew I should know him and I knew his

2 name. I just couldn't think of his name at the time.

3 And I think what I did then was turn round and asked

4 some of me colleagues who were in the line, you know,

5 "What do you call that particular person there?"

6 Q. Do you remember who you would have asked that of?

7 A. It could have been anybody.

8 Q. Including Reserve Constable Atkinson?

9 A. Yes, it could have been Reserve Constable Atkinson, yes.

10 Q. Now, can we have a look at paragraph 22, please? You

11 are reminded about your statement of 27 April there --

12 and that's at page [06368], if anybody wants -- that:

13 "Allister Hanvey was wearing jeans with

14 a dark-coloured baseball-type jacket with grey-ish

15 coloured sleeves."

16 Are you saying that the body of the jacket was

17 darker than the sleeves or simply that you couldn't make

18 out the body of the jacket?

19 A. That's the way I remember it; it was a dark coloured

20 baseball jacket with grey-ish sleeves.

21 Q. Two-tone?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And by "baseball jacket", do you mean something quite

24 thin material?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. I think you are now aware that there are various

2 versions going round about what he was wearing on that

3 night, and one of them is that he was wearing a black

4 puffer jacket with, as it were, sections puffed out,

5 body and sleeves? That was all black and that had "CAT"

6 emblazoned on it. What would you say to that?

7 A. I'm not aware of that.

8 Q. If we move on in your statement to page [81247] --

9 paragraph 29 -- you deal with your notebook entry and

10 you give page references in which you point out that it

11 is at 03:00 that the crowd finally disperse and you sign

12 the gun back at 03:30. Were you aware that there were

13 two buses that brought people in from the Coach Inn in

14 the early hours?

15 A. I'm fairly certain, yes, you would have got buses coming

16 back from Banbridge from the Coach. They usually

17 dropped people off at the High Street barrier.

18 Q. Is it your recollection that there were waves of people

19 coming, that represented people getting off individual

20 coaches?

21 A. Yes, I remember other people coming up from the

22 High Street end of the town centre and coming past us.

23 Some of them may have made their way on up through the

24 town. Some of them went and spoke to different people

25 in the crowd and stayed, or else went on where they were

1 going.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: This would be coming up in groups?

3 A. Yes, you might have had, you know -- you might have only

4 had two people, but you might have had a group of three

5 or four.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we have a look at page [81248], please?

7 At paragraph 32, you tell us that your notebook records

8 that you returned to the scene at 07:15. You went to

9 cover CID, which meant keeping an eye out while CID

10 officers worked on the scene. We know that an officer

11 who we are now calling P39 was involved later that

12 morning. Do you know who she is now?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. And do you recall whether she attended the

15 scene?

16 A. I can't remember who actually attended the scene.

17 Q. Right. Did you recognise anybody else apart from the

18 two people that you have mentioned, Hanvey and Hill, but

19 who you then failed to record in either a statement or

20 notebook entry?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you do or fail to do anything on that night because

23 of any sectarian sympathies you may have?

24 A. I do not have any sectarian sympathies.

25 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

1 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

2 Questions by MR McGRORY

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

4 MR McGRORY: Reserve Constable Warnock, my name it Mr McGrory and

5 I want to ask you some questions on behalf of the Hamill family.

6 Can I just take you to page [81244] of your

7 statement? It is the bottom section of the top

8 paragraph, which should be the end of paragraph 18.

9 I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions, if

10 I may, about your impression of the seriousness of the

11 situation and what effect the riot gun had.

12 Can I ask you first of all just, Reserve Constable

13 Warnock, is there any significance in the 25 rounds or

14 is that just standard issue?

15 A. That's the way they come -- the rounds come in a steel

16 box, 25 rounds per box.

17 Q. You are given a whole box?

18 A. At that time, it was 25 rounds per box.

19 Q. Yes, thank you. You say there you shouted something

20 along the lines of:

21 "Cease, move away, break up or baton rounds may be

22 used."

23 And you felt that the gun had an effect. Do you see

24 that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So you say some of the crowd began to drift away and

2 stayed away and others did not seem surprised by the

3 gun. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, was it your impression that there were those there

6 for whom the sight of a riot gun would not have been

7 something particularly remarkable?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You are agreeing with me there?

10 A. Baton guns at a riot are or a large street disorder, you

11 know, there is a possibility that baton guns, you know,

12 would be there. But it would depend on who was actually

13 there and whether it would be local police or whether it

14 would be tactical support group.

15 Q. You see, what you go on to say there was there was

16 a type of expression on their faces as if to say, "He

17 will not bother, he will not even do that". Do you see

18 that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Am I correct: My sense of what you are saying there is

21 that there were those who remained a threat despite the

22 riot gun?

23 A. I wouldn't say -- it depends what you mean by threat.

24 Q. Well, the riot gun arrives, you say it had an effect,

25 some drifted away, but is there another category of

1 person on this scene, I'm asking you, who felt no threat

2 from the riot gun? Do you follow me?

3 A. If you are trying to say that -- die hard people?

4 Q. Well, that's ...

5 A. You will always, you know, irrespective of -- not just

6 this instance, where you would have some type of street

7 disorder where you do turn around and tell people to go

8 home, go on about their business, you will always get

9 somebody, who is more than likely under the influence of

10 alcohol, who will stand and want to argue with you.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: He wouldn't be put off by the appearance of a

12 riot gun; is that correct?

13 A. No.

14 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: Can I ask what would the

15 effect be if it had been fired? I don't know these

16 things.

17 A. Basically if the need had arisen for the baton round to

18 be discharged, you have certain points on the body which

19 you are only allowed to fire at. Basically it is from

20 the waist down. You are looking to hit upper thighs,

21 that type of area. If it is discharged and you do make

22 an effective hit and the round actually hits the person

23 the way you want it to, a lot of pain and usually what

24 you will find is that they will fall to the ground.

25 Usually one round is fired. It usually takes the effect

1 that everybody backs way off.

2 MR McGRORY: Can I just move on to a different issue, Reserve

3 Constable Warnock, and that's this question of whether or

4 not you had a debriefing or whether or not it was the

5 practice to havea debriefing. Can I take you to page [81251]?

6 That's paragraph 37 of your statement. And the last few lines

7 of that:

8 "I then terminated duty at 09:30 am. No specific

9 debriefing took place from either CID or [a certain

10 inspector] ..."

11 And I don't want you to use his name. Do you see it

12 there?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. "... because the writing of the statement and the

15 notebook was construed as a debrief..."

16 And that you are making your superiors aware of what you

17 did and what you saw. Can we take it from that passage

18 that it wasn't your experience that after an event such

19 as this, someone would sit you down and ask you

20 questions about what you saw or did?

21 A. That would be correct.

22 Q. But that the practice was you were simply told, "Go and

23 write out an account, a statement, and give it back in"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But that, in your experience, was what was a debrief.

1 That really is what it amounted to in those days?

2 A. That would be correct.

3 Q. But you say there as well that when you give over the

4 statement, you are making your superiors aware of what

5 you did and what you saw. Does that suggest, Reserve

6 Constable Warnock, that you expected that somebody

7 would read that fairly soon after you give it to them?

8 A. Yes, I would expect that, you know, once I had handed

9 over my statement stating whatever I had done, that in

10 due course that statement, along with any other

11 statements that had been handed over, would have been

12 all read.

13 Q. Was it ever your experience, Reserve Constable Warnock,

14 that then somebody would come back to you and say, "You

15 see that statement you gave us a few hours ago, or

16 yesterday or ... can you clarify something for us?"

17 Would that ever have happened?

18 A. That's a possibility that that does happen, yes.

19 Q. And can you recall if it happened on this occasion?

20 A. No, I can't recall.

21 Q. No. Now, paragraph 39 of that page deals with an issue

22 that I anticipate might come up shortly, but I just want

23 to ask you some questions about it. In 2001 you were

24 served with a Form 17/3. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. It is referred to there in the first couple of lines of

2 that paragraph. Do you remember the context in which

3 that was served, that there was a complaints-type

4 investigation?

5 A. I was made aware whenever the Form 17/3 was served on me

6 that a complaint had been made.

7 Q. Yes. Were you aware, Reserve Constable Warnock, that

8 there had been a previous complaints investigation at all?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No. But can we take it that as a police officer you

11 have no difficulty with being accountable, have you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No. And that sometimes, whenever issues arise where

14 there might be public concern or concern on the part of

15 the family of a victim that the police mightn't have

16 done their job right -- you understand that it is

17 necessary sometimes to have an inquiry about that?

18 A. Yes, I understand that.

19 Q. And you have no difficulty about cooperating?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Indeed, you have had no difficulty about cooperating

22 with this inquiry, sure you haven't?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And indeed, that particular inquiry made no finding

25 against you, sure it didn't?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Just before I leave this, were you aware that the

3 Ombudsman's office had been set up in the year 2000?

4 A. I'm aware of the Ombudsman's office had been set up, but

5 in relation to dates --

6 Q. No. Well, let's put it this way: that would have been

7 a significant change in the circumstances of police

8 officers, would it not?

9 A. I don't understand.

10 Q. Do you remember the Good Friday Agreement in 1998?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that as a consequence of that, there were certain

13 recommendations about policing?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As a police officer, you would have been keeping abreast

16 of those developments?

17 A. I try to.

18 Q. Yes. And that in the two years following the

19 Good Friday Agreement, an office was set up called the

20 Ombudsman's office?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You are aware of that? And are you aware that the

23 context in which that office was set up was that there

24 was a belief in certain circles that the old complaints

25 procedure was ineffective?

1 A. I couldn't comment on that.

2 Q. You can't comment. In any event, you had no difficulty

3 in cooperating with this particular complaints

4 investigation, had you?

5 A. No.

6 MR McGRORY: No. Thank you.

7 Questions by MS DINSMORE

8 MS DINSMORE: Good afternoon, Reserve Constable Warnock. I

9 appear on behalf of Reserve Constable Atkinson.

10 I wonder could I take you to paragraph 11 of your

11 statement, which we find at [81241], please, and I'm

12 just going to ask you, would you be good enough to

13 confirm to the Inquiry, first of all, that you saw the

14 whole four Land Rover crew? That is Reserve Constable

15 Atkinson, Reserve Constable Cornett, P40 and Constable Neill?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you saw them forming part of the line too?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. I take it you would have considered that very

20 appropriate behaviour in the circumstances?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then you go on to say that you were asked what Reserve Constable Atkinson

23 was doing, and you said, "I think he would have been

24 doing what all the other officers were doing at that

25 stage" and that fell into a number of categories: trying

1 to keep the crowd back, maintaining a distance between

2 the crowd and the police and trying to stop anyone

3 encroaching through the police line to the persons on

4 the ground?

5 A. That would be correct, yes.

6 Q. And you are quite satisfied that that reflects the conduct of

7 Reserve Constable Atkinson as well as those other officers?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, can I then take you to paragraph 13, just over the

10 page, please, if we could have [81242]? Can I just ask

11 you: in relation to the assistance of Mr Wayne Lunt, can

12 you tell me, was he being particularly difficult?

13 A. When Constable A -- whenever I seen that Constable A had

14 hold of him, he was struggling.

15 Q. And was there a general mayhem as well going on?

16 A. There was -- the crowd was still milling about, the

17 crowd that was in front of the police line, the main

18 crowd.

19 Q. So it may well be there was lots of things attracting

20 your attention; isn't that right?

21 A. That would be correct, yes.

22 Q. So it may well be that Constable A was struggling with

23 this gentleman some time before you noticed it and went

24 to her aid?

25 A. That's a possibility, yes.

1 Q. Because, you see, to the best of his recollection, Reserve

2 Constable Atkinson recollects assisting as well, but you

3 would say you can't comment on that, but it is certainly

4 not out of the question even if you did render assistance?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. You just don't know?

7 A. Yes.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: At the time you noticed the incident, did

9 Constable A already have hold of Lunt?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS DINSMORE: Then if I could take you to paragraph 26,

12 which is found at page [81246], if we could just say --

13 you say in relation to paragraph 26, it is correct to

14 say that you ascertained the identity of Mr Hanvey. You

15 knew his face, but you didn't put a name to the face at

16 that stage. I think that's what you have told us today;

17 isn't that right?

18 A. Initially, yes, whenever I see him in the crowd, I knew

19 who he was but I couldn't remember what his name was at

20 that particular time.

21 Q. You say as far as the name coming to you was because you

22 turned to other police in the line and asked, "Who is

23 that?"

24 A. That's correct, yes.

25 Q. And wouldn't Mr Hanvey be someone who would be

1 well-known in the town of Portadown?

2 A. The reason why I knew his face but just couldn't

3 remember his name was because I had seen his picture in

4 the local paper.

5 Q. I think an exceptional expert in this Tae Kwon Do. So

6 the policemen generally would be familiar with the

7 identity of Mr Hanvey. Well, you were, from the local

8 paper?

9 A. I was. I can't comment on any other officer.

10 Q. But what you can say to this Inquiry is you know not who

11 said to you his name at that incident. All you know is

12 it was one of the police officers around, and in your

13 statement you said it could easily have been

14 Constable Neill, P40 or Reserve Constable Murphy, paragraph 26.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Because, you see, Reserve Constable Atkinson will say that --

17 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not a proper form of question.

18 MS DINSMORE: I accept that.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Put the suggestion; he will give his evidence

20 later.

21 MS DINSMORE: So what you are saying is you are quite

22 satisfied some policeman -- and you know not who he was,

23 and it was within the ambit of a general mayhem going

24 on?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Thank you. Then if I could take you to paragraph 37, which

2 you find on the [81251], and all I'm asking you there is

3 can you confirm, as you say in your statement, that you

4 saw Reserve Constable Atkinson back at the station, but you

5 didn't have any conversation with him about the incident?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And then in relation to Reserve Constable Atkinson, you have

8 been a policeman for some considerable time in the area, as

9 has Reserve Constable Atkinson , and you have described your

10 relationship as a working relationship with him?

11 A. That would be correct, yes.

12 Q. And what would a working relationship involve in

13 a police station?

14 A. It would depend on what duties you were doing. You

15 could either have been doing security duties at the

16 station, you could have been doing the town centre beat,

17 you could have been doing mobile patrol or you could

18 have been supplying the soft target protection to

19 particular individuals.

20 Q. And you had been working with Reserve Constable Atkinson in 1997?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS DINSMORE: Okay, thank you very much.

23 Questions by MR ATCHISON

24 MR ATCHISON: Just in relation to Mr Hanvey, it is fair to

25 say you knew him from the newspaper; isn't that right?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. You didn't know him from any police duties at the time?

3 A. Not that I can recollect, no.

4 Q. You also say that it is hard to say whether Mr Hanvey

5 was a recognised person in Portadown at that time.

6 Would that be right?

7 A. That would be correct.

8 Q. In relation to Mr Lunt, you were asked whether or not

9 you recall if he was still struggling. Would it be fair

10 to say in paragraph 18 of your statement, you say you

11 would not have moved on if Mr Lunt was still struggling?

12 A. Can I see the statement?

13 Q. Yes, sorry, paragraph 13. I regret that I do not have

14 the precise page number, sir.

15 If we could carry on to the next page, please, the

16 very last line, Constable, you will see that you say:

17 "I would not have moved on if he had still being

18 struggling."

19 Is that right?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. So it is fair to say that Mr Lunt had ceased struggling

22 with Constable A?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Also you told us that the crowd were approximately 20 to

25 25 feet away from the injured persons on the ground.

1 A. They were about 20 to 25 feet away from the police line.

2 Q. Very well. Could I refer you to paragraph 9, please?

3 Thank you. You will see that there you recorded that:

4 "I think that the crowd were approximately 20 to

5 25 feet away from the two people lying on the ground.

6 As for the Land Rover, I think it was ..."

7 I won't go into that, but certainly you thought the

8 crowd were about 25 to 30 yards [sic] away from the people on

9 the ground; is that right?

10 A. 25 feet from the crowd or the people on the ground?

11 Q. The crowd to the people on the ground.

12 A. Yes, they were another approximately five feet -- it

13 could have been more -- the people on the ground would

14 have been behind the police line. So it is

15 a possibility that it's not five feet, maybe a bit more.

16 Q. Certainly you didn't see anybody attacking the persons

17 on the ground?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No one from the crowd was attempting to attack them

20 either. Would that be fair?

21 A. That would be correct, yes.

22 Q. Am I right that you volunteered in your evidence earlier

23 that it was quite noisy that evening?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. It would be fair to say that you couldn't pick out

1 individual voices? It would be hard to determine what

2 any one individual was shouting; would that be fair?

3 A. That would be correct.

4 Q. Just to recap, you said at paragraph 13 that you didn't

5 recall any fighting or assaulting, so it would be fair

6 to say that this wasn't, in your recollection,

7 a particularly violent crowd?

8 A. I don't recollect any fighting between members of the

9 crowd.

10 Q. In fairness, Constable Orr, who gave evidence earlier

11 today, indicated that -- I hope I paraphrase this

12 correctly, sir -- to his mind, this wasn't the most

13 aggressive crowd he had ever seen. Would you agree with

14 that?

15 A. I can agree, but everybody has their own perspective.

16 Q. Yes. But certainly you haven't given us the impression

17 that this was a violent crowd?

18 A. No, I would basically deem a violent crowd as members of

19 a crowd, members of the public that, you know, would

20 want to run at you, throw stones, bottles, bricks or any

21 other items they could possibly get their hands on.

22 Q. Indeed, you said that the crowd were staying back from

23 the police. Isn't that right?

24 A. Yes, they stepped back from the police line.

25 Q. And you say that the odd individual might have taken

1 a few steps forward, but they would have stepped back of

2 their own volition?

3 A. Yes. There is a possibility that another member,

4 another officer further along the line from where I was

5 might have shouted something at them and, you know, told

6 them to stay back.

7 Q. Clearly we will revisit the issue of the baton gun.

8 Just in relation to the people coming up from the Coach

9 bus, you didn't deem them to be a threat. Isn't that

10 right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. In fact, you said that you didn't believe they amounted

13 to a crowd?

14 A. You had groups of, as I said earlier -- you maybe had

15 groups of two. You could have had groups of three or

16 four coming.

17 Q. It was a small number?

18 A. Small numbers.

19 Q. And it is fair to say that most walked on?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. To use your words, you weren't concerned about them?

22 A. So long as they were walking on and weren't joining,

23 swelling the crowd, there was no concern.

24 Q. Just in relation to Mr Hanvey, do you recall did you

25 discuss Mr Hanvey with other police in order to jog your

1 memory?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the name return to you from your own memory?

4 A. The only time that I asked other police was whenever I

5 was in the police line and seen him, I couldn't remember

6 his name and turned round, asked other officers, "What

7 do you call that particular person there?" And I got an

8 answer. Who it was from, I cannot tell.

9 Q. You said, when Mr Underwood asked you, that Mr Hanvey

10 was a prominent figure in the crowd. Isn't that right?

11 A. That's correct. He was to the front of the crowd. I

12 would deem that as being prominent.

13 Q. Certainly, just to be clear, whilst he was at the front

14 of the crowd, he wasn't proactively engaging in any

15 aggression?

16 A. Except for shouting.

17 Q. Yes. He didn't try to push the police, for example?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And there were no confrontations that you saw involving

20 Mr Hanvey?

21 A. Not that I can recollect, no.

22 Q. In fairness then, there is probably, aside from being at

23 the front of the crowd, very little reason for you to

24 notice what Mr Hanvey was doing. Is that right?

25 A. Unless he had turned round and lifted something and was

1 about to throw it or had decided to take a run at the

2 police.

3 Q. But that's not the case?

4 A. That's not the case.

5 Q. And, indeed, you were candid and you conceded you

6 couldn't recall what hair colour Mr Hanvey had?

7 A. No, I couldn't recollect it.

8 Q. Nor could you recall the hairstyle?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it possible that your recollection of the jacket may

11 not be all that accurate?

12 A. That's the way I recollect the jacket.

13 Q. Can I clarify: a baseball jacket, if one were to draw

14 a parallel to a tracksuit jacket, would you agree that

15 a baseball jacket would be much larger?

16 A. No, I couldn't agree that.

17 Q. Very well. Do you recall seeing any orange on the

18 jacket?

19 A. Not that I recollect, no.

20 Q. Did you see any writing on the jacket?

21 A. Not that I can recollect.

22 Q. Just in relation to when you returned to the police

23 station, I understand that you went to a recreational

24 room?

25 A. Sorry, yes.

1 Q. And you say that you might have had a 45-minute break?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, Constable Orr, the officer who preceded you today,

4 in his statement to the Inquiry he identified that officers

5 would often talk loudly and it would be easy to overhear

6 one another. Would that be fair?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall during that time, could it have been that

9 this case was discussed no doubt?

10 A. No, I don't remember it being discussed.

11 Q. Is that a specific memory or is that an assumption?

12 A. That's an assumption. I don't remember -- I remember

13 having my break, I don't remember who else was there at

14 the same time in the same room.

15 MR ATCHISON: Thank you.

16 Questions by MR ADAIR

17 MR ADAIR: Just one matter I want to ask you about. You

18 have been asked very helpfully by Mr McGrory that in

19 relation to your attitude towards helping with, first of

20 all, this Inquiry, you have no problem doing that, have

21 you; that's what you have told us?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you have told us that you have no difficulty with

24 cooperating with anybody who wanted to investigate

25 anything to do surrounding these events. Is that right?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Are you happy to do that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I think you have effectively said you have always

5 been happy to do that; is that right?

6 A. That would be correct.

7 Q. I want to ask you about quite a different matter and

8 that is at page [10714], if you could turn that up,

9 please? That's the 17/3 form you got. Can you tell us,

10 were you happy to be accused of a lack of integrity?

11 A. No, I was not happy.

12 Q. Were you happy to be accused or had you any difficulty

13 with being accused of the things that are set out in the

14 report that was served upon you?

15 A. I wasn't happy, no.

16 MR ADAIR: Thank you.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

18 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN

19 THE CHAIRMAN: You were, you tell us, not among the first

20 officers to come as reinforcements?

21 A. If I recollect correctly, I think we were the second

22 vehicle that arrived.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: By the time you got there, were the police

24 already beginning to get the crowd under control?

25 A. Whenever I arrived, got out of the police car, police

1 were already -- a line was basically being formed in

2 front of the crowd across the junction from

3 Thomas Street towards Woodhouse Street, across the

4 main -- the crossroads, so to speak.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Presumably the police wouldn't decide to make

6 a cordon and push the crowd back unless there was some

7 need for that?

8 A. That would be correct, yes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: But you had not seen what might have caused

10 that need?

11 A. I didn't see the incident taking place.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: No.

13 A. Basically we heard the call for assistance, we made our

14 way to the town centre, alighted from the police vehicle

15 and joined other police that was already on the line.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: And you said it would be difficult to hear

17 what people said?

18 A. That would be correct.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Would that depend on how close they were to

20 you, how loud they spoke?

21 A. You have 60 maybe plus people. You have maybe -- they

22 are shouting at each other, they are shouting at you.

23 You don't know who is actually saying what.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. Thank you.

25 Mr Underwood, we saw the instruction on the issue of

1 the use of riot guns. Is there another page to it which

2 does cover this situation?

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Not that I could see. If we perhaps get it

4 back on the screen, I can take you through it in case

5 there is anything this witness should be shown before he

6 goes.

7 The first page is 45192, which deals with

8 authority. Then the next page deals with restrictions

9 on use. 45194 continues that and then deals with

10 additional requirements, and then we see at page 45195

11 the possibility of using smoke cartridges. Then

12 reportage, and then how the weapon should be carried and

13 no rounds in the chamber unless action is imminent.

14 That appears to be the complete code, that we have got

15 at least.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: You see, the nearest we get to it is in

17 paragraph 2(b)(ii).

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: But it doesn't really cover it, and you know

20 no other police document which deals with this?

21 MR UNDERWOOD: I don't, or we don't as a team. Perhaps the

22 witness could help us.

23 Can you help us, officer, as to whether there was

24 any other instruction that you can now recall about the

25 authority for the use of a riot gun?

1 A. Today, now, it would be for any individual who is

2 trained on the use of a baton gun. The order would have

3 to be coming from either the Chief Constable as sole

4 gold commander, or it would be coming from the SAC for

5 the district.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: But can you recall any other instruction at

7 the time in 1997?

8 A. Not that I can recall, no.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, officer. That concludes your

11 evidence.

12 A. Thank you.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me just one moment. I think paragraph 3

14 may -- not now -- call for further consideration. It

15 may be that 2(b) is not very felicitously expressed.

16 Very well, thank you.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, officer.

18 Sir, we have made rather better progress than I had

19 anticipated. We have got one other officer to give

20 evidence today and allowance has been made for his evidence

21 to continue into tomorrow. He is Reserve Constable Murphy.

22 I'm told that he is due to attend at 1.15.

23 Experience suggests that it takes 20 minutes or

24 15 minutes to familiarise witnesses with the technology

25 and so on before they come in. Can I suggest that we

1 rise now and resume at 1.30?

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, very well.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: I am confident that we will finish his

4 evidence this afternoon.

5 (12.22 pm)

6 (The short adjournment)

7 (1.30 pm)

8 MR UNDERWOOD: I will call the officer currently known as

9 [Reserve Constable Murphy].

10 JAMES MURPHY (sworn)

11 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon, sir.

14 Q. My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the Inquiry.

15 I have some questions for you. Rather than ask you your

16 full name I'm going to get you to have a look at your

17 statement and see if it is yours. It is at

18 page [81710]. Are those your names at the top of that?

19 A. They are, sir, yes.

20 Q. If we just flick through the statement on the screen --

21 there is nine pages of it -- fairly briefly, can I ask

22 you just to have a scan? Is that your witness

23 statement?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Is it true?

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Thank you. If we can go back to the first page,

3 [81710], paragraph 4, you tell us you were part of the

4 late crew retained for public order duties -- that's the

5 Land Rover crew. However, you were detailed on mobile

6 patrol with two other officers that you have named

7 there. Can you help us with why it is that you didn't

8 go in the Land Rover?

9 A. At the time the sergeant in charge felt that four in the

10 Land Rover was sufficient and he detailed me then to go

11 in the back of the car.

12 Q. We had some materials to suggest that five might have

13 been the normal complement for a Land Rover?

14 A. Five would have been, yes.

15 Q. Obviously we will ask the sergeant, but did you get any

16 understanding from him at the time about why he thought

17 four was the right number that night?

18 A. No, sir, it was a direction from an officer and I just

19 obeyed.

20 Q. Thank you. If we go over the page to [81711], at

21 paragraph 6 you talk about receiving a radio

22 transmission, going into the town and where you parked

23 and seeing a Land Rover.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And later on in your statement you talk to us about the

1 crowd and two men on the ground.

2 Now, rather than deal with all that by reference to

3 your statement, I wonder if we could have a look at

4 a model and get your help on what it looked like in

5 reality. It will come up on the screen. We can pan

6 this round through 360 degrees, so you can orientate

7 yourself. This is taken from outside Eastwoods. We are

8 beginning to see into Thomas Street here.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That's Eastwoods. You can see up the street to the

11 church.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, first of all, can I ask you to give us some help on

14 where your vehicle stopped. Is it on the scene at the

15 moment or do we need to go to the right?

16 A. No, go to the right slightly, please. Just stop there.

17 The large light pole here beside the traffic lights.

18 Q. Right. So --

19 A. Slightly down from that on the same side, I believe we

20 parked behind another vehicle.

21 Q. We are going to need to do what we call screen shots and

22 get you to mark on there. We will take this scene for

23 a start and get you to mark on this. Right, you have

24 got control of this. There is a white pen there. If

25 you would be so kind, you can mark where you recall the

1 cars stopping.

2 A. Can we go further to the right on this?

3 Q. Okay. We will have to go back out of the screen shot.

4 A. Sorry.

5 Q. No, it is not your fault. It takes a slightly different

6 shot when we narrow it down. Right, you have got

7 control again.

8 A. Okay, you want me to mark it with an X?

9 Q. If you like, yes.

10 A. I believe we would have been down this area somewhere.

11 Q. Thank you. We will mark --

12 A. Slightly further back down the street.

13 Q. Fine, and you think that was parked behind another

14 police vehicle?

15 A. I believe it was, yes.

16 Q. Right. We will mark that number 1 for future reference.

17 While that's happening, do you see the Land Rover parked

18 over where we have got it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Don't take it as gospel that that's where it was. We

21 simply put it there in order to ask people whether they

22 agree with that positioning or whether it was to the

23 left or the right or whatever. Can you help about us

24 that?

25 A. I believe the Land Rover was slightly back from the

1 position it's in. It was closer to the footpath at the --

2 outside the Alliance & Leicester.

3 Q. Okay, thank you. You tell us in your statement about

4 a crowd, as I said, and does this scene on the screens

5 in front of us contain the area where the crowd was?

6 A. Part of it, yes. There was part of it further back

7 that's not in shot here.

8 Q. Was the crowd concentrated in one area or was it spread

9 about?

10 A. The crowd was spread over the full width of the street,

11 both sides of the central reservation.

12 Q. So both on this and on the left. So it would have been

13 at the mouth of Thomas Street and to the left of the

14 mouth of Thomas Street --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- looking from Thomas Street?

17 A. Thank you very much.

18 Q. You also tell us about two men lying on the ground. Are

19 they on this scene that we have on our screens?

20 A. One would have been.

21 Q. Would it help if we go back out of this and just pan

22 round? Is there a scene which we can capture which

23 would have both of them in, do you think?

24 A. The camera would need to go slightly to the left.

25 Q. Tell us where to stop.

1 A. I'm losing the one on the right. I haven't got to the

2 one on the left yet.

3 Q. So this isn't going to be capable of doing it then?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Fair enough. Let's go back to where we were then on

6 that screen shot that's just marked up. If you can

7 identify the one that is in this scene by marking it for

8 us, that would be kind. Thank you.

9 We will call that number 2, and then we need to come

10 out of this and pan round to the left then, do we?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Still round to the left?

13 A. It is, yes, more round to the left.

14 Q. Tell us where to stop?

15 A. You can stop here.

16 Q. Thank you. Again, can you mark on there for us?

17 A. Okay, I believe the second gentleman was -- sorry.

18 Q. That's not your fault.

19 A. Approximately there, I believe.

20 Q. Right, thank you. We know that one of these two

21 gentlemen was Robert Hamill. Do you know which of

22 those --

23 A. No, sir, I didn't.

24 Q. Do you know if one was wearing a black leather jacket?

25 A. I can't recall, sir, no.

1 Q. All right, thank you. If we could go back to the last

2 screen shot, please, I think your number 2 got lost.

3 The marking you gave us as number 2, which was the first

4 person on the ground, would you mind doing that for us

5 again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Something went wrong with the technology.

8 A. No problem.

9 Q. Okay, we will mark that number 2. Thank you very much.

10 Now, if we can go back to your statement, which is

11 at page [81712] -- go over the page. Sorry, perhaps we

12 can go back. Paragraph 7. You tell us:

13 "There were at least four officers, possibly six, on

14 the street when we arrived on the scene: the four from the Land

15 Rover crew and then the officers from the other police

16 vehicle. There was a crowd of about 40, possibly 50,

17 people and they were all over the place. The majority

18 of the crowd, I would say in the region of 95 to

19 99 per cent, was Loyalist. The rest were

20 Nationalists. They were all shouting and running about

21 like madmen. It was quite evident that they were high

22 on drink. In my notebook entry, I describe the crowd as

23 'rioting'."

24 Is that a fair description on your recollection now?

25 A. Yes, the numbers involved, and there was small scuffles

1 taking place all over the street. It was just quite

2 hectic.

3 Q. Out of control?

4 A. Yes, it would have been out of control. The amount of

5 officers that were on the street at that particular time

6 I don't believe could have dealt with it efficiently.

7 Q. What were the officers doing?

8 A. Basically pushing the crowd back, trying to get them

9 moved away up the street.

10 Q. Up towards West Street?

11 A. Up towards West Street, to try to defuse the situation.

12 Q. Looking at your paragraph 8, towards the bottom of that

13 you deal with some women who were with the men on the

14 ground, and you say about four lines from the bottom

15 you:

16 "... presume those women were with the men on the

17 ground. As the men appeared to be receiving comfort

18 from these women, I didn't go to assist the men nor did

19 I see other officers provide any assistance."

20 Were the men on the ground at any threat, as far as

21 you could see, from the crowd?

22 A. At that stage, I don't believe so. I don't believe so.

23 There was police in the vicinity.

24 Q. Okay. And can you help us again with the relationship

25 between them and the crowd? Was the crowd directing

1 anything, taunts or aggression towards them in any way?

2 A. There was shouting taking place over the whole street,

3 directed at ourselves, directed at other people. You

4 know, it was just general mayhem.

5 Q. Were any bottles being thrown?

6 A. Not that I seen, no.

7 Q. Did you feel threatened?

8 A. Very much so, yes.

9 Q. Threatened as an object of attention or threatened

10 because you were in there and attempting to help?

11 A. We were in a situation where we were basically

12 surrounded, and at stages you were isolated, on your own

13 with a large crowd around you. Yes, frightened, very

14 much so.

15 Q. Did you see any police officer actually assaulted?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. If I can take you over the page to [81713] and look at

18 paragraph 10, please, you start that paragraph by

19 saying:

20 "There had been numerous incidents at the

21 Woodhouse Street/Thomas Street junction in the past, for

22 example, when the bars would empty and there might be

23 half a dozen people on each side squaring up with each

24 other. The junction had always been known to be

25 a flashpoint for sectarian violence during my time in

1 Portadown..."

2 We have heard from a witness who says pretty much

3 that, but goes on to say that on more than one occasion

4 he saw a police Land Rover at the junction -- not on

5 this occasion, but on other occasions -- and a fight

6 going on and the officers didn't get out of the Land

7 Rover, they just let the fight peter out, basically. Do

8 you have any experience of such a thing?

9 A. None whatsoever.

10 Q. If we look further down at paragraph 11, you say there:

11 "It is fair to say that there was no clear strategy,

12 although it was fairly obvious what we needed to do. In

13 my view, our priority was to control the crowd. It was

14 a matter of everybody mucking in to try to push the

15 crowd back."

16 Another witness has told us that -- and this is

17 a Catholic witness -- there were about eight people

18 kicking at one of the men on the ground at one stage and

19 he and police officers pulled them off. Did you see

20 that?

21 A. No, I didn't, sir.

22 Q. Continuing in your paragraph 11 there and the final

23 couple of sentences, you say:

24 "I believe there may have been one or two Federal

25 Riot Guns available, but I do not believe they were

1 fired. Given the size of the crowd, I'm not sure that

2 it would have made a difference anyway if they had been

3 fired."

4 Have you experience of crowds, either before or

5 after this incident, where riot guns were used?

6 A. During some of the Drumcree disputes, yes, but that was

7 down in Drumcree itself.

8 Q. Can you give the Panel some impression, please, of how

9 it would be that there would be an occasion, say, at

10 Drumcree, where a riot gun could do some good but it

11 couldn't here?

12 A. It is hard to say. I know there has to be a certain

13 distance between an officer firing a riot gun and the

14 crowd. That night the crowd was actually in our faces.

15 It would have been unsafe, in my opinion -- but again,

16 it is only my opinion -- it would have been unsafe.

17 Q. No, that's helpful, thank you.

18 If we go over the page to [81704] at paragraph 14,

19 you say pretty much what you have just been telling us:

20 "When I was trying to control the crowd, I would

21 have been right up in their faces, I was that close to

22 them."

23 You go on:

24 "However, I was not able to recognise anyone."

25 You go on to talk about a Wayne Lunt. But can

1 I just ask you first of all whether, in your view,

2 people were committing offences like affray, for

3 example?

4 A. There is a lot of people could have been guilty of

5 disorderly behaviour, public order offences.

6 Q. Nothing more serious?

7 A. No, not to my knowledge at that time, no.

8 Q. Right. Had you experience of policing in Portadown that

9 brought you into contact with people apart from just the

10 public order things that you were talking about before?

11 A. Not a great experience. A lot of my duties would have

12 consisted of security duties. The vast majority -- I

13 was full-time reserve and not a police driver. So,

14 therefore, a lot of my duties would have consisted of

15 being in the sanger. It was rare occasions I was out as

16 such.

17 Q. So you weren't involved in general policing duties in

18 a way that would have put faces to names?

19 A. Possibly one tour of duty out of seven or eight I might

20 have been out.

21 Q. Is that the reason why you weren't able to recognise

22 anybody, or is there some other reason?

23 A. No, that would be the main reason.

24 Q. I take it you were able to make out faces in the

25 crowd --

1 A. Yes, you could see faces, yes.

2 Q. Were you -- after the event -- ever offered the

3 opportunity to look at mug shots or take part in

4 confrontations to identify anyone?

5 A. No, not that I'm aware.

6 Q. If we look at your paragraph 24, which I think we find

7 on page [81718], you say:

8 "I have been asked about various other people who

9 are connected with this and I can say that I knew

10 Allister Hanvey because I had dealt with him a few

11 months before in connection with a road traffic

12 collision. However, he wasn't as well-known to me as

13 Donald Blevins was, for example. I saw Allister Hanvey

14 in the crowd of Loyalists that night, but I cannot

15 remember exactly when I saw him, what he was wearing nor

16 what he was doing when I did see him."

17 I don't think in fact you made a statement about

18 that until January 2001; is that right?

19 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us why it is that there was no mention of

21 Mr Hanvey in your notebook or statement of 27 April?

22 A. I believe I seen him on the night. I didn't see him

23 doing anything of note that I would have recorded it.

24 The second statement was generated as a direct result of

25 questions asked of me by CID officers during interview.

1 Q. It is not a critical line of questioning. I'm

2 interested in this issue: did anybody ask you to

3 identify people on the scene who might have been

4 witnesses?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. If you had been asked by way of a debriefing, for

7 example, to name anybody on the scene in order that

8 police could have gone to interview those people about

9 what they had seen, would you have mentioned Mr Hanvey?

10 A. I probably would have, yes.

11 Q. Doing the best you can to help us on this -- this may be

12 a question too far -- if you had been asked on

13 27 April 1997 what you saw Mr Hanvey wearing, would you

14 have been able to help on that?

15 A. No, I don't believe I would.

16 Q. Was there anybody else that you saw on the scene whom

17 you might have put in a note or might have put in

18 a statement had you been asked specifically --

19 A. Other than Donald Blevins, who I mentioned. That's

20 really the only one I could have recognised.

21 Q. You told us frankly that the reason you came up with

22 Mr Hanvey's name in 2001 was as a result of a direct

23 line of questions?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But were you asked specifically did you see Hanvey on

1 the night? Is that the line of questions?

2 A. Yes, it was, and a certain relationship that he had with

3 somebody else.

4 Q. Reserve Constable Atkinson?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So nobody at any stage took you through a role call of

7 other names; is that right?

8 A. No, sir, no.

9 Q. If we go back to page [81715], paragraph 16, you tell us

10 while you were with Mr Lunt in the Land Rover:

11 "... Constable A went back up the street about 50 or

12 60 yards up towards the church. She spoke to the other

13 police. I don't know what about."

14 Do you know which other police were up there?

15 A. I don't know, sir, no. There was just officers up

16 there. I can't recall who they were.

17 Q. Okay. And if we go over to page [81716], paragraph 19,

18 in the first sentence you say:

19 "Eventually the 10 or 12 officers on the scene were

20 able to get the crowd under control and push them up to

21 the top of West Street beyond the barriers at the

22 junction of Mandeville Street."

23 And you go on that you marked on the map.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was anybody in control of the officers -- was somebody

1 taking charge of this action?

2 A. At that stage there would have been an inspector and

3 sergeant, the duty inspector and duty sergeant would

4 have been there.

5 Q. Right. And if we go over then to page [81717], you tell

6 us in paragraphs 21 and 22 about terminating duty and

7 coming back on. In paragraph 21, you told us roughly in

8 the middle of that that you terminated duty at about

9 03:45. Then you talk in roughly the middle of

10 paragraph 22 that you returned to duty at 15:45 later

11 that day, and then you made your statement.

12 It follows from it, does it, from this that nobody

13 contacted you to tell you this was a serious matter?

14 A. No, sir, no.

15 Q. Nobody asked you as a matter of urgency to make

16 a notebook entry or a statement?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. There is a final matter I'm asking all officers at the

19 scene as a matter of fairness. You know there is an

20 allegation that officers at the scene may have acted or

21 failed to act out of a sense of sectarian sympathy for

22 the rioters and against those who were injured. Did you

23 do anything or fail to do anything as a result of any

24 sectarian sympathies?

25 A. I don't believe I did, sir, no.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. You will be asked some

2 more questions, I think.

3 MR FERGUSON: No, questions.

4 Questions by MR McGRORY

5 MR McGRORY: Please, sir, I have a few matters.

6 Reserve Constable Murphy, I want to ask you some

7 questions on behalf of the Hamill family. Can I first

8 of all take to you a document which is a map -- an entry

9 on a map, [73897]. It is hard to make out. There is a

10 mark on Market Street. I'm going to tell you what this

11 is in one second, but can you see the mark?

12 A. Yes, I think I can, yes.

13 Q. This is actually a map which was marked by

14 Constable Orr. Do you want to check your cipher list?

15 A. I think his name is at the top of it.

16 Q. It is indeed. Now, we heard evidence that this car

17 arrived at the scene just before you. This is the delta

18 call sign 70?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I believe that's what that smudged mark in fact says?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you help us at all, Reserve Constable Murphy, with

23 whether or not you pulled in at the back of it or was

24 it facing towards you or facing away from you?

25 A. No, I believe we pulled into the rear of that vehicle.

1 Q. To the rear of that vehicle?

2 A. I believe so, yes.

3 Q. So it was pointing up towards St Mark's church?

4 A. Up towards the church, I believe, sir, yes.

5 Q. Yes. What was your impression of the scene just as you

6 were arriving, in terms of whether or not a vehicle

7 could have proceeded up the street towards the church on

8 that side of the road?

9 A. It would have been quite difficult with the crowd

10 stretching across the full width of the street.

11 Q. Thank you. Sir, this is a matter which should have been

12 dealt with with Constable Orr, who I think has given mistaken

13 evidence, but I'm sorry this point wasn't -- despite my

14 learned junior's efforts -- raised with Constable Orr. So

15 Constable Orr's evidence was he agreed with Constable A that

16 they drove up that side of street, which I think I will be

17 making a submission can't possibly have been possible, but it

18 is something that perhaps Inquiry Counsel may consider

19 if there needs to be a recall. It is just an oversight

20 on our part.

21 But in any event, you parked at the rear of it?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And there was a significant crowd in front of that other

24 car?

25 A. There would have been. I believe there was.

1 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, can I just turn briefly to

2 page 81110, paragraph 5 of your statement. Sorry,

3 have I got --

4 THE CHAIRMAN: The wrong document, I think.

5 MR McGRORY: 81710, sorry, my apologies. Perhaps 81711

6 perhaps. Sorry, [81712], yes, thank you. Paragraph 8,

7 the bottom half of paragraph 8, please. I wonder can

8 you help us just with this, Reserve Constable Murphy:

9 "The men appeared to be receiving comfort from these

10 women. I did not go to assist the men, nor did I see

11 any other officers provide any assistance."

12 Have you a memory of this at the moment, Reserve Constable Murphy?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. And can you remember seeing any police officer helping

15 the men on the ground at any time?

16 A. I don't. Again, a lot of the time my back would have

17 been to the -- either facing the crowd, my back would

18 have been -- and to my left side where the two injured

19 persons were. You would have glanced over periodically,

20 but you weren't continually looking in their direction;

21 you were facing the crowd.

22 Q. Thank you. I'll take that issue no further.

23 Now, in the following page at paragraph 10 [81713] you refer

24 to your impression of the crowd. The second half of the

25 statement, you say:

1 "The crowd had no fear of the police. We were

2 totally outnumbered."

3 Would it be fair to say that your impression of this

4 crowd at the point of your arrival was of such hostility

5 that it was still a dangerous situation?

6 A. I believed so, yes.

7 Q. Yes. And that the presence of those police that had

8 arrived was significant in terms of preventing any

9 further injury. Would that be a fair assumption?

10 A. It would be, yes.

11 Q. If I could just turn finally to paragraph 22. Thank

12 you. This is your Inquiry statement where you are asked

13 about this issue of debriefing.

14 Now, you are aware that this is an issue in the

15 Inquiry as to whether or not police officers such as

16 yourself were given the opportunity to give over to

17 someone of seniority everything that you had seen, all

18 the information that you had at your disposal?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that, indeed, it was the issue of there perhaps not

21 being a formal debrief that is something which was

22 raised in the disciplinary proceedings?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes. Can you help us, Reserve Constable Murphy, if there

25 was a custom or a practice or a culture within the police

1 of an incident such as this of having some sort of formal

2 -- for want of a better phrase -- debriefing?

3 A. In my experience, it would have been a very, very rare

4 occasion. Major operations, it may have required it,

5 but when we would have finished a normal tour of duty,

6 as this was on this particular night, there was no such

7 thing as a regular debrief held.

8 Q. But of course, on this occasion you would have been

9 aware by the time you got back to the police station

10 that there had been some serious assault; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. And that some significant injury was caused to one or

14 both of those people lying on the ground?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. But at no point did anybody ask you any information

17 other than what you put in your statement?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And would you have expected that when you handed over

20 the statement, someone would have scrutinised it?

21 A. I would have believed so, yes.

22 Q. And that they would have perhaps compared and contrasted

23 that statement with the statements from the other

24 police?

25 A. I would imagine so, yes.

1 Q. And nobody came back to you and said, "Listen, there is

2 something so and so says, could you help us with?"

3 A. No.

4 MR McGRORY: Thank you.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Leaving aside what injuries were or weren't

6 caused, this was a pretty ugly situation, wasn't it?

7 A. It was indeed, sir.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: And a situation in which, whether or not

9 serious injury is caused, is very much a matter of

10 chance?

11 A. Very much so, yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: So suppose there had been no serious injury,

13 would you have dismissed it as a fairly minor matter, or

14 how would you have seen it?

15 A. On the night in question, when I terminated duty, it was

16 regarded as a sectarian assault. It didn't become

17 evident until later on how serious it actually was.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but whatever kind of assault it was,

19 how -- as an incident, a breach of the peace, if you

20 like, how seriously did you regard it?

21 A. It was a fairly serious incident.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

23 MR ADAIR: I think Mrs Dinsmore was about to --

24 MS DINSMORE: Thank you, Mr Adair.

25 Questions by MS DINSMORE

1 MS DINSMORE: Reserve Constable Murphy, I appear on behalf of Reserve

2 Constable Atkinson, and isn't it correct to say that you never

3 saw Reserve Constable Atkinson speak to anyone at the scene?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And that one finds that on -- if we could call up

6 [34807] and that you put in your statement of 2 January

7 of 2001?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And that remains correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Thank you. Also when you were interviewed by the

12 Inquiry team, you were asked did you speak to Reserve Constable Atkinson at any

13 stage after the incident, walking back to the station or

14 the following day. Can you recall, did you speak to him

15 at all?

16 A. I can't recall precisely, no.

17 Q. You told the Inquiry:

18 "No, I can't even remember. I seen him the day

19 after. I can't remember as to whether he was working on

20 that day or not. I don't know."

21 So you have no record of speaking to Reserve Constable Atkinson about this

22 incident afterwards?

23 A. No.

24 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

1 MR McCOMB: Really just a couple of questions.

2 Questions by MR McCOMB

3 MR McCOMB: I represent a number of people who were charged

4 with the murder, but it is really perhaps in relation to

5 a question recently asked from the bench. I think it

6 was at paragraph 7 of your statement to the Inquiry, you

7 described that after you arrived you saw at least four,

8 possibly six, officers who were doing their best -- you

9 put it that way; would that be fair enough?

10 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

11 Q. What you noticed amongst other things, no doubt, was

12 that there were minor fights breaking out all over the

13 place, people were running around like madmen, you said,

14 before that and there were minor fights. Some other

15 people have described them as skirmishes. Can you

16 elaborate on that at all perhaps to give a picture of

17 what these minor fights were which you saw in amongst

18 the generally melee?

19 A. More like scuffles. You know, it wasn't really

20 hand-to-hand, it was pushing and stuff.

21 Q. Pushing and shoving, as we used to call it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you estimate at all whether those scuffles were

24 between people of different faiths or could they have

25 been amongst people of the same group or sets?

1 A. I believe they were of different faith, most of them,

2 but again, there was -- some, I would believe, were

3 among the Loyalist crowd.

4 Q. Amongst themselves?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then others perhaps one-on-one or something like that?

7 A. Yes, sir, yes.

8 Q. And would that have been spread out all over the general

9 area from Woodhouse Street to --

10 A. It was fairly well across the whole street, yes.

11 Q. Do you have a picture in your recollection of perhaps

12 a crowd, a smaller crowd perhaps, from the

13 Woodhouse Street area who would have been

14 Nationalists -- sorry, perhaps separated by virtue of

15 the police involvement from the Loyalist crowd?

16 A. Well, I was at the back, standing at the back of the

17 Land Rover. I physically myself was pushing people back

18 down -- a few people back down Woodhouse Street who were

19 coming up.

20 MR McCOMB: I see. Yes. Thank you very much.

21 MR ADAIR: No questions.

22 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

23 MR UNDERWOOD: Forgive me a moment. Can I just ask you

24 about that scuffling? We know the numbers very broadly

25 of Protestants and very broadly of Catholics, and we

1 have your picture of small groups, as it were, of people

2 from one faith scuffling with people from another faith.

3 Was this a sort of four to five on one type of scuffle

4 or were there equal numbers in any of the scuffles, or

5 can't you help?

6 A. I know there were different sides involved. What

7 numbers against each other, I don't know, sir.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. I have nothing else

9 arising.

10 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us roughly about how many

12 officers there were to be drawn upon who might be on the

13 Land Rover duty of a Saturday or Friday night in the

14 town centre?

15 A. There normally would probably have been one Land Rover

16 crew consisting of four to five officers.

17 Q. Yes, but from what number of officers would that group

18 be drawn? In other words, over a period of six months

19 how many officers might be, at some stage or another, on

20 that duty?

21 A. It is hard to say. I don't fully understand the

22 question.

23 Q. You have got a pool of officers from whom you would

24 choose your team of four on any Saturday night.

25 A. Well, if you take my section, if we are going to use it

100

1 like that, my section would have consisted of a team of

2 10 or 14 officers in number. We wouldn't have always,

3 obviously on a rotational basis, we wouldn't have been

4 doing public order duty every Friday or Saturday night.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: How many sections?

6 A. Four.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: So we are speaking of about 50 officers

8 altogether?

9 A. That's correct.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, you have told us that you didn't see Reserve Constable Atkinson

11 talking to anyone. For about how much of the time you

12 were there would you have him under your view?

13 A. Glancing back and forward whenever I noticed him but

14 other than that, not for any good length of time.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: You have got your own job to do.

16 A. We're already in with the crowd, you know, you were

17 trying to cover your own back.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid we tend, when we ask people about

19 these incidents, to suppose that they have both eyes on

20 everything all the time, but it doesn't work like that.

21 A. Totally impossible, sir.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you help me about identification

23 practice? If someone doesn't stand on identification

24 parade, do you have provisions in Northern Ireland

25 whereby you can attempt some other kind of

101

1 identification?

2 A. That's way above my level, sir.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you very much.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you for coming.

5 A. You are welcome, sir.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today. As is

7 painfully evident, I utterly misjudged how long it would

8 take to hear these three officers. We have two officers

9 tomorrow. I'm not going to suggest a 10 o'clock start

10 in the light of this.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Good idea.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: There is one other matter that Mrs Dinsmore

13 wishes to raise in closed session. I wonder if we could

14 have a short break to re-arrange the technology for

15 that.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly, yes.

17 For the rest of you, 10.30 tomorrow morning.

18 (2.12 pm)

19 (Short adjournment)

20 (2.35 pm)

21 (In camera)

22 (2.43 pm)

23 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)

102

1 I N D E X

2
DAVID ALLAN ORR (sworn) .......................... 1
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 1
4
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 18
5
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 19
6
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 20
7
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 22
8
Further questions by MR McGRORY .............. 29
9
PAUL WARNOCK (sworn) ............................. 33
10
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 33
11
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 52
12
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 59
13
Questions by MR ATCHISON ..................... 63
14
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 70
15
Questions by THE CHAIRMAN .................... 71
16
JAMES MURPHY (sworn) ............................. 75
17
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 75
18
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 91
19
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 96
20
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 98
21
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 99
22
Questions by THE CHAIRMAN .................... 100
23

103

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 19th March 2009, day 30