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Hearing: 18th March 2009, day 29

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Wednesday, 18 March 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 29

1 Wednesday, 18 March 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (10.50 am)

5 Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Underwood, for the delay in

7 sitting. You have probably known there are various

8 matters we have had to consider.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite. Sir, we are in the happy position of

10 having finished the civilian witnesses save for, I

11 think, two or three that need to be rescheduled, and the

12 next group of witnesses we are about to hear are police

13 officers who were at the scene in Portadown in the early

14 hours of 27 April. They comprise the officers in the

15 Land Rover and back-up officers.

16 I am proposing to call the back-up officers first,

17 which may seem perverse, but of course there is

18 a history of allegations against those officers which

19 has led to this Inquiry being established and I want to

20 give the best possible opportunity for all the evidence

21 that may be material to them to be out before they give

22 evidence, out of fairness to them.

23 The evidence generally of this group of witnesses

24 goes to a number of matters. Clearly to start with it

25 will cover what the officers in the Land Rover were told

1 by way of briefing to do on the night. It will also, of

2 course, cover what they saw and what they did on the

3 night.

4 So far as the back-up officers go -- briefings

5 rather less important -- so far as they are concerned,

6 the important question is what they saw; in particular,

7 were the Land Rover officers out and what were they

8 doing by the time the back-up officers arrived, and what

9 can the back-up officers tell us about the anatomy of

10 the fight when they arrived. And much of that will also

11 go to the question of Robert Atkinson, as we are now

12 calling him, the officer who may or may not have had a

13 conversation subsequently with Mr Hanvey.

14 There are other aspects of the Inquiry which these

15 officers at the scene can impinge on, for example,

16 scene preservation and the early stages of the

17 investigation. Although those are matters which will be

18 more thoroughly covered by the investigative officers,

19 there is an obviously important stage at which, as it

20 were, there is a transition between the officers on the

21 scene who saw and heard things which they could and

22 should have reported to the detectives and the

23 detectives themselves. And in order to see what it is

24 they should have reported, of course, we need to find

25 out what it is they saw or perhaps should have seen.

1 There are a number of issues that arise in this

2 aspect of the evidence, or this part of the evidence

3 rather. The first is the experience and the training of

4 those who were on duty and the adequacy of it. You will

5 see some personnel records, insofar as they are

6 material, to show the degree to which the officers who

7 attended were trained in specific matters, such as scene

8 preservation, or were not trained in it.

9 The second issue is about briefing. There is

10 a manual on public order which sets out the essential

11 elements of the briefing. Perhaps we could have a look

12 at that on the screen. It is at page [10810],

13 paragraph 20.1:

14 "Briefing is the issuing of instructions to

15 personnel detailing arrangements prior to, and during,

16 the policing of events. Proper briefing is essential to

17 ensure the personnel involved in any public order/disorder

18 situation know exactly what police action is to be taken

19 and the reasons for it and how such action is to be

20 implemented. Each individual officer involved should

21 know his own particular role and how this fits into the

22 overall plan. This may be amplified by a precise

23 written instruction setting out the members' duties.

24 Sufficient time must be allowed to cater for briefing in

25 respect of all operations."

1 Then 20.2 under "Considerations":

2 "Briefing should be in two phases, the overall

3 commander briefing all officers of or above the rank of

4 inspector and the inspector in turn briefing his

5 particular serial."

6 Obviously you are going to hear evidence from the

7 officers about how they were briefed and no doubt you

8 will assess it against those standards.

9 Then the next issue is what is the evidence of those

10 who were in the Land Rover about what they could see and

11 when they got out. I think it is fair to say that only

12 one Catholic witness now says the police never got out

13 of the Land Rover at any material time. That's

14 Mr McNeice, and you have heard evidence from Mr Prunty,

15 conversely, that the officers and he pulled people off

16 Mr Hamill while they were kicking him and that it may

17 well be those officers were the officers in the Land

18 Rover. It is yet to be established, of course.

19 If it does transpire that the McNeice evidence is

20 right, then, of course, the question arises why did they

21 stay there. And you will have in mind perhaps the

22 evidence of Mr Blevins who said that on a number of

23 occasions he walked through the town when there was

24 a fight and there was a Land Rover and the police sat

25 there perhaps because the fights were never technically

1 serious. It is possibility -- I only float it as one --

2 that that's what happened here and it got out of hand.

3 Then you will fourthly, no doubt, consider steps

4 taken to obtain back-up. We will hear the radio calls

5 in a minute and you will see there were plentiful calls

6 for back-up and, indeed, back-up did arrive although

7 there was a little confusion about in precisely what

8 form it arrived.

9 Then fifthly one will need to consider perhaps the

10 adequacy of the behaviour of the back-up officers, in

11 particular was Mr Hamill being attacked when they

12 arrived and, if so, did they do anything about that.

13 Finally on the events of the night, the question

14 arises whose responsibility was it to secure the scene

15 and what steps were taken. I said these witnesses also

16 impinge on the investigation side of the Inquiry and

17 there is a number of aspects of that. The first

18 question is whether there was any adequate debriefing so

19 that if they didn't retell to the detectives what they

20 had seen, whose fault that might be. Debriefing is set

21 out again in that manual on public order, and perhaps we

22 can look at page [10812]. If we highlight the second

23 half:

24 "Effective debriefing at the end of an operation is

25 just as important as the briefing before it. It can be

1 described as being in three different stages:

2 "(a) by supervisory officers at the scene of the incident whilst

3 the details are still fresh in the mind."

4 We know there were two supervisory officers at the

5 scene, a sergeant and an inspector:

6 "(b) immediately after the event and before

7 dispersal of personnel engaged in the operation."

8 There was dispersal. One of the officers, for

9 example, was sent off to a road traffic incident, the

10 Land Rover crew were allowed home before taking their

11 statements, then they were called back in:

12 "(c) a post-incident enquiry may be held. Any

13 necessary amendments, alterations or adjustments

14 considered necessary for future events should be

15 discussed."

16 That aspect of it no doubt will need to be

17 considered under the next phase of the evidence when we

18 get to the investigative officers.

19 Then --

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pausing there, Mr Underwood -- and this

21 may very well belong to a later part -- the existence of

22 a system of briefing and debriefing is obviously

23 important. Also what may be important is ad hoc checks

24 to see that the system is being honoured. Not in every

25 case would that be necessary, but query whether there

1 should be some unexpected, if you like, ad hoc

2 investigation to see on a particular occasion had things

3 worked as they should.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. I'm certainly proposing to call, in the

5 later stages, some very senior officers indeed up to and

6 including the Chief Constable. So that's a question

7 that can be put to a number of them.

8 Also in respect of the, as it were, transitional

9 phase from what these officers saw and did to the

10 investigative stage, falls the evidence of officer Robert

11 Atkinson, as we are now calling him, and what he saw and

12 what he did or did not pass on about Mr Hanvey.

13 He now unequivocally accepts that he did see

14 Mr Hanvey on the night and it is beyond doubt that he

15 didn't put in his notebook or a statement any record of

16 that. The question, of course, is why that is. The

17 resolution of that will touch on the events of the early

18 morning telephone call and the veracity of the evidence

19 of Ms McKee. But there are other officers who saw

20 Mr Hanvey on the night and didn't tell detectives about

21 them, in particular the sergeant whom we are now calling

22 [Sergeant McClean], who, as we heard already, was the

23 subject of a warning from Robert Atkinson that he was a

24 martial arts expert, that that sergeant thought he was

25 going to be attacked by Mr Hanvey and he was known to him.

1 That sergeant did eventually make a statement --

2 perhaps we can look at that. It is [11084]. I think we

3 have seen most of this before, but if I take up the

4 first page to start with. Made 28 December 2000.

5 Picking it up at the end of the first line:

6 "I have been asked ... if I had any conversation with

7 Robert Atkinson following the serious assault in

8 Portadown town centre on 27 April 1997 resulting in the death

9 of Robert Hamill. I can recall when I was assisting

10 police to remove the large group of people into

11 West Street, Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson was on my left

12 side within speaking distance. I think Reserve Constable

13 Silcock would have been assisting as well in our immediate

14 vicinity.

15 "There was about 40 Loyalists at this stage. There

16 was one particular individual who was very hostile. He

17 was very reluctant to move back and had to be physically

18 forced by myself by pushing him back. It was clear to

19 me that this individual was close to assaulting me. I

20 can recall Robert Atkinson saying words to the

21 effect, 'Do you know who he is? Watch him, that fellow

22 is an expert or black belt in martial arts.' He

23 mentioned the fellow's name as Hanvey but I certainly

24 didn't know him. I am unable to remember what clothing

25 this man was wearing. I have been shown a copy of the

1 baton report form which was completed by me in respect

2 of [that reserve constable]. [He] produced his baton to me.

3 There was nothing of any significance found on the

4 baton, although I did note the leather strap was broken.

5 I note that I have recorded Robert Atkinson struck

6 a male person on the stomach and names the person to me

7 as being Rory Robinson. I wouldn't have recalled this

8 from memory because it was so long ago. I can't recall

9 any other conversations with Robert Atkinson about

10 the incident or anybody involved in it.

11 "I have been asked if I observed

12 Robert Atkinson having a conversation with Allister Hanvey,

13 Tracey Clarke or any other persons. I don't know

14 Tracey Clarke and I only know Hanvey when he was

15 identified to me by Robert Atkinson. However, I

16 didn't see him have any in depth conversation with

17 anybody other than speaking to people in the crowd when

18 we were moving them back."

19 He goes on to talk about some others. So you may

20 think it would have been very helpful to the

21 investigation to have known that some time before

22 28 December 2000, which was well over a year after the

23 Hobson trial.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, it may be that the sergeant could

25 have given a description of clothing if this had been

1 known earlier.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, rather than three and a half years

3 later, quite so.

4 I can give you a list of officers that I'm proposing

5 to call and what it is their evidence might go on,

6 bearing in mind that at present I'm going to have to do

7 that with ciphers. I don't know how helpful that's

8 likely to be.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I suspect we shall be listening to quite

10 a number of officers using ciphers before this is

11 thrashed out so it may be as well just to tell us now.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. I'm going to open the evidence,

13 when I do it, by playing the radio transcripts, both of

14 the police communications and the ambulance

15 communications. I'm then going to deal with the

16 communications officer, Constable Godley,

17 whose statement I will read to you. That deals with

18 some the nuances of the tapes.

19 Then I'll move on to the back-up officers. There is

20 a detective sergeant called James Harkness and he describes the

21 order in which cars arrived at the scene. If we have

22 a look at that. It is at page [03838]. Taking the

23 final paragraph:

24 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery

25 Mondeo followed within seconds by the A/Ford Sierra. Both

1 these vehicles parked at the junction of

2 Thomas Street/Market Street. The third vehicle, driven

3 by Constable Orr, states he drove through the crowd,

4 turned right opposite the church and drove back down the

5 town parking his vehicle at the junction of

6 Woodhouse Street/Market Street."

7 That officer is Constable Orr. As I say, there was

8 a little confusion about who was in what car and there

9 are contradictory accounts which we will have to resolve

10 when we get to the evidence.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't see the date on this document.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: That's 12 June 1997.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: You then get a witness who is Reserve

15 constable Silcock, who may well have been the first of the

16 back-up officers on the scene, and he describes those in

17 the Land Rover being actively engaged when he attended.

18 That's Constable Neill, R/Con Cornett, P40 and Robert Atkinson.

19 This officer, Reserve Constable Silcock, identified

20 Stacey Bridgett and Rory Robinson at the scene and so

21 is going to be material to your judgment about the

22 evidence of those gentlemen.

23 Next I'm going to call Constable A. She too

24 identifies people as being in the crowd, in particular

25 Stacey Bridgett and Dean Forbes. She has them acting

1 aggressively and, again, that's going to go to the

2 evaluation of their evidence about what they did.

3 There is a specific issue about her, which is about

4 Wayne Lunt. She it was who detained Mr Lunt, put him in

5 the back of the Land Rover and identified him. She then

6 released him and she accepts that she was approached by

7 somebody who may well have been Mr Prunty who asked why

8 she was letting him go because he was one of those that

9 did it. And in relation to her, there is one piece of

10 criticism, which is that she did not recite that

11 accusation in her notebook or her first statement, and

12 only in May of 1997 did she mention it to anyone.

13 Next there will be Constable Adams and he identifies

14 Rory Robinson at the scene. Again, that's likely to go

15 to the assessment of Rory Robinson's evidence.

16 Then we deal with Constable Orr. He will deal with

17 Constable A's handling of Wayne Lunt. And the evidence

18 both of Constable A and that constable may well assist

19 you on whether anybody other than Wayne Lunt was ever

20 placed in the Land Rover, could have looked like

21 Wayne Lunt and could have been the subject of the

22 accusation that he was one of those that did it.

23 Finally on that subject, you will hear

24 Constable Warnock who assisted Constable A in grabbing the

25 arm of Wayne Lunt. This constable, Warnock, also goes to

1 two other interesting issues. Firstly, he drew a riot

2 gun and it may enable you to assess the scene,

3 when he explains why it is he felt it necessary to have

4 a riot gun. And secondly, he gave the description of

5 Mr Hanvey's clothing as including grey sleeves. Again,

6 perhaps quite an important matter.

7 We then get to Reserve Constable Murphy, who was

8 briefed to be an extra observer in the mobile support

9 vehicle, call sign JD80. No doubt we will find out when we

10 get to these witnesses whether he was in fact with that group.

11 The final back-up officer you will hear is

12 Constable Cooke. We then get to

13 a Reserve Constable Burrows, who was given security duty at

14 the police station and he will give evidence of the

15 comings and goings of other officers, including the

16 back-up vehicles passing by.

17 After that, we get to the officers in charge of the

18 scene who are Sergeant McClean, whose statement we just

19 looked at, and Inspector McCrum, and the importance there

20 is, firstly, that Sergeant McClean briefed the Land Rover

21 crew for public order duties, and secondly, that these

22 were the officers who were in a position to debrief the

23 officers at the scene or, indeed, directly afterwards.

24 And they did attend, as we have seen.

25 Finally in this group of witnesses, as I say, I will

1 call the officers who were in the Land Rover.

2 Perhaps it would be helpful at this stage to hear

3 the radio track and then go to the communications

4 officer to explain some of it. So perhaps we could hear

5 first of all the police communications on the virtual

6 reality.

7 (Radio track played)

8 MR UNDERWOOD: Probably we will move it on to just after

9 2 o'clock.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think there is something on channel 19

11 a bit before this.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: There is. It is the checking of the

13 electoral register.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. It is just that I thought when the

15 slide was moving on, we saw yellow first and then blue.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: We did, I'm sorry.

17 (Radio track continued)

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Stop it there. We did skip over something.

19 We could go back to it by all means or we can see it in

20 transcript later. It is just some more business about

21 identifying Wayne Lunt, and the purpose of letting it

22 play that was to give you an impression when it was

23 Wayne Lunt must have been in the Land Rover and when he

24 was released.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: For myself, I would like to just hear the

1 first minute or couple of minutes, the first by the

2 policewoman in what is obviously a distressed voice.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. Perhaps we could replay from 1.45

4 through to, say, 1.50.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It may not need to be as long as that, but

6 the first remarks she made were not easy to follow and

7 then we had the transcript on the screen.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course.

9 (Radio track played)

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the very first bit was on channel 19.

11 That was, I think, when the voice was saying they are

12 killing each other, or words to that effect.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. Perhaps we can go back.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: It is the very beginning.

15 (Radio track played)

16 That's it, thank you very much.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure whether this will be put on to

19 LiveNote, but it might be helpful to us if we could have

20 pages 1 to 7, I think all told, isn't it, as

21 a transcript?

22 MR UNDERWOOD: There is in fact a transcript. It is at

23 page [06589] of the pocket phone and there is another

24 transcript of the other channel. I'll find the numbers

25 of that for you when we come to the communications

1 officer's evidence.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: I know that Mr Adair wants to make some

4 remarks before we get into the evidence.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?

6 Submissions by MR ADAIR

7 MR ADAIR: Thank you. Sir, just some brief comments to

8 make, sir, if I may, at this stage before the various

9 police officers whom I represent give evidence to the

10 Tribunal.

11 I want to make it absolutely clear from the outset,

12 sir, that if, during the course of these brief

13 submissions, I use the word "police", the Tribunal will

14 remember that I am representing a number of officers,

15 both uniformed and CID. I do not represent Robert Atkinson, and so

16 while that issue about Robert Atkinson has yet to be decided, if

17 I use the word "police", I'm not referring to any action

18 or inaction on the part of Robert Atkinson. And I want to make that

19 absolutely clear for the record, sir.

20 Now, you have heard, sir, from my learned friend

21 just now that this Tribunal has been set up and was set

22 up as a result of a history of allegations that were

23 made against the police, if I may use the generic term

24 just for the moment. Initially, those allegations

25 centred on the actions or inactions of the various

1 officers in the Land Rover. And the Panel will be very

2 much aware that over the years, getting back to 1997,

3 the allegations have been aired both in local press, in

4 national press and, of course, have been aired in the

5 United States of America with congressmen, have been

6 aired at committees at Westminster and have been the

7 subject of various articles by various interested

8 groups, if I may put it that way. And various interest

9 groups have made allegations against the various

10 officers whom I represent over the years.

11 They have all had the luxury of access to American

12 congressmen, to Westminster committees, the media and to

13 the publication of articles, unlike those officers whom

14 I represent, who, as very often -- and one can draw

15 analogies with other situations -- have been the silent

16 ones. They have not had the opportunity until now,

17 ironically, because of this Inquiry being set up, to

18 answer these allegations and to let the public know what

19 their side of the story is.

20 They have been the brunt over the past 12 years of

21 a series of allegations, some serious, some extremely

22 serious and others implying oversight, over these past

23 12 years, and nobody has listened so far to their side

24 of this awful event.

25 Now, ironically their only involvement in the

1 investigations to date has been their interview and

2 re-interview by various internal disciplinary or

3 potentially criminal investigations. And you may have

4 seen -- I'm not aware, sir, as to whether you have read

5 or have seen some of the Inquiry statements made by the

6 various officers, but can I say this, sir: if a sense

7 of grievance is demonstrated from time to time by any of

8 these officers, I want to make it absolutely clear that

9 as far as they are concerned -- and I ask the Panel to

10 bear this in mind; the reason I'm mentioning this at

11 this stage is so that when you are assessing them you

12 are aware of this -- any grievance they bear is not

13 towards the Hamill family.

14 Each and every one, so far as I'm aware, can

15 understand why the Hamill family have pursued the course

16 of action that they have. Whether they would agree with

17 precisely the way in which it was pursued is another

18 matter, but the grievance is not against the Hamill

19 family. But as part of this Inquiry, sir, you will be

20 hearing evidence, for example, from Superintendent

21 Kennedy, who conducted a

22 series of interviews with these officers in 2000/2001, and

23 ou will hear, sir -- and you will see in due course --

24 that a series of blanket allegations were made against

25 these officers by that superintendent during the course of

1 that inquiry. Some of them, we will be submitting, were

2 outrageous allegations that were put to them and were

3 blanket allegations put to these officers in order to

4 enable them to interview not based on any fact, not

5 based on any evidence. And their grievance ironically,

6 sir, if it comes over, is with the way they have treated

7 in the intervening years by that investigation as

8 opposed to the fact that they are the subject of

9 scrutiny by this Inquiry.

10 Now, I'm not going to go into detail at this stage

11 because this is just, as I said, a brief opening

12 submission to you about this. But what I'm saying to

13 the Panel is this: when we are looking at these officers

14 and whatever sense of grievance they may express, what

15 I ask you to bear in mind, sir, is that very many of

16 these officers have served in the RUC for a lifetime.

17 They have impeccable records of service to this

18 community, they have been shot at, they have been abused

19 by both Protestants and Catholics, family members have

20 been murdered. And their grievance, sir, stems from the

21 fact that having done that over the years, they are

22 treated the way they were by this investigation -- not

23 this Inquiry, but by the internal investigation and the

24 way that allegations were made about their integrity

25 having served this community for a lifetime. And that's

1 very much where very much of their grievance lies.

2 Now, as I say, it is not directed towards this

3 Inquiry attempting to find out the truth of what

4 happened to Robert Hamill.

5 Now, as I said, sir, these people have been the

6 silent and -- I use the word in the -- again, it is

7 perhaps not an appropriate word -- but they have been

8 the silent victims in a sense of the allegations being

9 publicly aired over the years without recourse to any

10 reply.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Whipping boys, you might ...

12 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir. They now will get their opportunity to

13 tell this Inquiry their account of what happened.

14 Now, some of the allegations that have made over the

15 years have ranged, as I say, from oversight to perhaps

16 the most serious allegation, that has been made either

17 directly or by innuendo, that any action or inaction on

18 the part of these police officers was because

19 Robert Hamill was a Catholic.

20 Now, it may be -- and time will tell -- that during

21 the course of this Inquiry that suggestion will not be

22 put to any of the officers whom I represent. I don't

23 know. And obviously everybody involved in this tribunal

24 has got their own role to play, and no doubt so far, if

25 I might venture to say, any of the allegations that have

1 been put to various witnesses have been based on proper

2 grounds.

3 I would like to think, sir -- and I'm saying this

4 at the outset before these officers give any evidence --

5 that if there is any allegation to be made against any

6 one of those officers whom I represent that any of their

7 actions or inactions was based on the fact that

8 Robert Hamill was a Catholic, that that is put to them

9 and based on some evidence, whether circumstantial or

10 direct.

11 I appreciate that one can, on the basis of

12 circumstantial evidence, suggest something which isn't

13 directly evidenced by fact. But I would like to think,

14 sir, that that's just about as serious an allegation as

15 one can make against a serving police officer in this

16 community, as you will appreciate now, sir. And again,

17 it may not come to pass, but if there is to be an

18 allegation made against any of those whom I represent

19 that their actions or inactions were more than just an

20 oversight but was motivated by the fact that

21 Robert Hamill was a Catholic, then I would like to

22 think, sir, that the Panel will ask the questioner on

23 what evidential basis that suggestion is made, because

24 as I say, it is just about as serious an allegation as

25 one can make against a serving officer or retired

1 officer in this community.

2 And can say this, sir? I have no difficulty

3 whatsoever with any of those officers for whom I appear

4 being asked about their previous or post experience with

5 the RUC or PSNI in dealing with criminal matters. For

6 example, we know that during the course of this Inquiry

7 and during the course of some of the applications made

8 by Mr McGrory, for example, to introduce criminal

9 records, that we have discussed, well, character can be

10 relevant to propensity, for example. One's attitude can

11 be relevant. For example, if one was at Drumcree it

12 might be that that is relevant to other matters.

13 If there is anything in any of these police

14 officers' history, either pre- or post April 1997, that

15 in any way suggests that predisposition to treat

16 Catholics in a different way than Protestants, then I'm

17 happy that it is brought out. If one wants to see or if

18 the Inquiry wants to see or anybody else wants to see

19 their personnel records, their history of prosecution of

20 Catholics and Protestants, the way they have treated

21 case after case after case on the basis of equality as

22 opposed to sectarianism, then I'm content that they will

23 see it. Because if I'm right in submitting that there

24 is nothing in any of those officers for whom I represent

25 to suggest one scintilla of sectarianism, then it begs

1 the question why did they pick out this one particular

2 incident to treat the Catholic, as is suggested, in the

3 way they did.

4 Can I say this also, sir, in relation to a number of

5 the officers for whom I appear? I trust that the

6 Tribunal will accept it. If I, as counsel, for

7 example -- although I appear and represent all these

8 officers, in my role as, I suppose, as an officer of the

9 court, as an officer to this tribunal, if I think -- and

10 if I'm asked the question whether this should be done or

11 that should have been done in hindsight, I would like to

12 think, sir, I will answer the question honestly and to

13 the best of my ability as assisting whatever enquiries

14 are being made. And it may be -- I'm not going to

15 pre-judge the evidence -- that one or other, or perhaps

16 more, of the officers will accept that in hindsight in

17 the perfect world something should have been done or not

18 done. But that's quite a different matter as to whether

19 it was an oversight, whether it was negligent, whether

20 it was culpably negligent, whether it was grossly

21 negligent. It is quite different than the motivation

22 aspect, and as I say, it is the motivation aspect that

23 I'm really addressing at this stage.

24 For example, I have yet to meet the perfect lawyer.

25 I have met deluded lawyers who think they are perfect.

1 I have yet to meet a lawyer who -- I can only go from my

2 own experience -- who, if asked, "Should you have called

3 that witness?" "Well, maybe I should." "Should you

4 have consulted with that witness a bit earlier?" "Maybe

5 I should". "Should you have asked that question?" "No,

6 I shouldn't, what a mug." I keep it under review

7 constantly, whether there is a perfect lawyer, but to

8 date I have not found one. And I think it is important

9 that when we are looking at the actions of police

10 officers involved in this type of scene, with what they

11 were going through in 1997, that one doesn't judge it in

12 the calm, studied perfection of this tribunal but looks

13 at it and assesses it in the real world, if I can just

14 put it that way, sir.

15 So I would say: let's not think that there is

16 perfection and there may well have been things done that

17 shouldn't have been done and things not done that should

18 have been done. But I'm just asking the Tribunal to

19 bear in mind that it really brings to mind that the

20 phrase "detached reflection cannot be expected in the

21 presence of an uplifted knife." One has to look at the

22 thing in reality, as opposed to the calmness of this

23 tribunal.

24 So that's all I want to say at this stage, sir, in

25 relation to the witnesses for whom I appear.

1 Can I say this just while I'm on my feet, and I

2 think the issue may arise today, so that's why I'm

3 mentioning it, sir, at this stage: some of the witnesses

4 for whom I appear have already been granted, pre the

5 temporary rulings, both anonymity and screening. Now,

6 I'm subject to the Tribunal really in this, but that of

7 course will exclude all from the Tribunal, including the

8 Hamill family who, as you know, I have already indicated

9 I have no difficulty in appearing in relation to the

10 temporary situation.

11 I'm prepared, if the Tribunal thinks it appropriate,

12 to take instructions from each of the people for whom

13 I appear who have been granted the full anonymity and

14 screening, that the Hamill family also be allowed in for

15 their evidence. That will be a matter for you, sir, as

16 to whether you think that's appropriate because you made

17 the order. But I'm prepared, if you think it

18 appropriate, to ask each one of them to allow that to

19 occur and then you can amend the order if you think it

20 is appropriate. I thought I would mention it at this

21 stage because it will arise fairly quickly today.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Just help me about this: on the question of

23 motive or attitude, could you object to a question which

24 is not making a suggestion but enquiring?

25 MR ADAIR: No, sir.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: About a person's attitude?

2 MR ADAIR: I have already spoken to Mr Underwood about that

3 this morning.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: What's your reaction to this particular part

5 of the population, for instance. It is simply

6 a question, not suggesting the answer.

7 MR ADAIR: I have no difficulty with that at all, sir.

8 Thank you very much.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

10 MR UNDERWOOD: That's helpful. I wonder, while we are still

11 in fully open session, whether I should play the

12 ambulance transcript?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I had forgotten about that.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: It is my fault. I knew my friend wanted to

15 make some opening remarks and I should have let him do

16 it earlier. Perhaps we can go to the ambulance

17 transmission now.

18 (Ambulance transmission played)

19 That is it. 06581 06582

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: As I say, I propose next to go to the

22 statement of the communications officer. That has not

23 been redacted. So I regret that we are going to have to

24 go into the screened session in order to see that.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: You are suggesting -- yes, I see -- in other

1 words, the screen should be cut off from the public?

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: And the press?

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we need to rise for that?

6 MR UNDERWOOD: I think we probably do.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: How long?

8 MR UNDERWOOD: About 10 minutes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 minutes, thank you. We shall make it

10 15 minutes. That will give the shorthand writers the

11 break.

12 (11.52 am)

13 (Short break)

14 (12.15 pm)

15 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, those audio tapes are not easy to follow

16 even with the two channels imposed on one. So can I, in

17 order to get some more assistance, take to you the

18 witness statement of the communications officer?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

20 MR UNDERWOOD: We find it at [80320]. This officer is

21 Constable Godley. We have already seen his

22 name on the tapes because he was the man at the station

23 fielding the radio calls. If we look at paragraph 7

24 onwards, over the page, I need to read about four or

25 five pages of this. Paragraph 7:

1 "I have been asked to explain how the radio system

2 in the Communications Room worked. Messages were sent

3 over two channels: channel 19 and channel 37. The

4 vehicle-mounted radios transmitted over channel 19, and the

5 pocket phones worn by officers transmitted over

6 channel 37. Both channels were used in the

7 Communications Room simultaneously.

8 When an officer radioed a message in, they would

9 use a call sign and so if the officer used the wrong

10 call sign, it was not immediately possible to tell

11 whether the call was from a vehicle or someone on the beat.

12 "An officer on the beat would not have been able

13 to hear a conversation transmitted on channel 19. Only

14 vehicles with vehicle-mounted radios in the area tuned

15 to that channel and possibly MSU vehicles in the area

16 would have been able to hear conversations using that

17 channel too. Channel 19 was used by J division and

18 other areas would use different frequencies to avoid

19 overcrowding.

20 "The only people who could hear channel 37 would be

21 those with a pocket phone tuned to that frequency and

22 who were within a couple of kilometres of the base

23 station. These phones would have weak spots where they

24 simply did not work, as is the case with mobile

25 telephones.

1 "I first became aware of the fight that was

2 happening in Portadown town centre when I heard

3 screaming coming over the radio at about 01:45. The

4 transcript of channel 37 is contained at pages 10521 to

5 10532 and the transcript of channel 19 is at pages ..."

6 This should be:

7 "... 10534 to 10591. At 01:45.37, I heard over

8 channel 19, 'We need back-up over in the town'. This is

9 on the transcript contained at page 10536.

10 "My recollection of the message was hearing Reserve Constable

11 Denise Cornett literally screaming over the

12 network. I knew it was Reserve Constable Cornett because

13 I recognised her voice. She was screaming something like

14 'They're killing one another'."

15 I should point out that that's not on the tape, it

16 is not on the transcript we have seen, including the

17 transcripts exhibited to this witness statement:

18 "At that stage we realised that there was something

19 horribly wrong in the town centre. With hindsight, it

20 was perhaps unfortunate for her to use the phrase,

21 'They're killing one another' because she simply meant

22 there was a bad fracas in the town centre. It

23 took a few seconds to finally get clearly from

24 Reserve Constable Cornett that she needed back-up. I was

25 confused because Reserve Constable Cornett was using the

1 call signs 80 and 81 which would, in theory, have been

2 on channel 19. There was a different call sign for the

3 pocket phone. So I was responding on one channel while

4 she was getting very confused tying to reply to me on

5 the other."

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pausing there, Mr Underwood, does that

7 mean that when she was using 19, they were talking as

8 though she was using 37? She could hear on 19 something

9 which was being sent out -- sorry, she could hear on 37

10 something which was being sent out on 19?

11 MR UNDERWOOD: No, she couldn't hear it. What this officer

12 is saying is because -- I presume he couldn't

13 distinguish between the bands he was listening to and

14 all he could tell was, from the call sign, which band it

15 should have been on. So he was transmitting back on the

16 band he assumed she was transmitting from because she

17 had given the call sign, and of course she couldn't hear

18 it because she was using the wrong frequency.

19 SIR JOHN EVANS: Channel 19 would be VHF, while 37 would be

20 UHF.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: And he goes on:

22 "Reserve Constable Cornett was wrong to use the call

23 sign 80 at all. Vehicles with call signs in the 80s

24 were Land Rovers and those in 70s were patrol cars. 70

25 would have been the number one response vehicle and 80

1 would have been the duty section's Land Rover. If there

2 was a supplementary Land Rover for back-up it was 81.

3 The call sign, therefore, does not refer to a specific

4 vehicle, but to a crew in a particular role. I was in

5 81 until midnight, but I think Reserve Constable Cornett was

6 in 80, which was the duty Land Rover.

7 At midnight we were swapped over, so

8 Reserve Constable Cornett was now in the supplementary

9 section working for a further four hours as back-up.

10 Her call sign would, therefore, have become 81. It was

11 because we recognised her voice and knew she had been 80

12 earlier that we realised that she was in fact 81 and in

13 the town centre.

14 "As can be seen on the transcript contained at

15 page 10522, at 01:46.15 Reserve Constable Cornett came in

16 on channel 37 finally saying, 'Juliet delta from 81, we

17 need back-up urgently in the town'. I was in a position

18 to respond, 'There are other vehicles. They are already

19 on their way.' Vehicles had already been dispatched

20 because they had heard Reserve Constable Cornett panicking

21 over the radio. At 01:46.15, just before

22 Reserve Constable Cornett requested back-up, Reserve

23 Constable ..."

24 This should be Warnock:

25 "... had transmitted, 'En route, en route. Be with

1 you shortly.' At 01:48, Reserve Constable Cornett came back

2 on and said, 'JD from 81, we need a couple of

3 ambulances, over.' I see the transcript at page 10524

4 states that I replied, 'Roger, ambulances, two victims,

5 over'. Looking at the transcript again, I think

6 I actually just said, 'Roger' and then either Constable

7 Neill or Reserve Constable Silcock came on their pocket

8 phone and said, 'Two ambulances, two victims'. I must have

9 got that wrong on the transcription because I would not

10 have known that there were two victims."

11 I should point out I think what I said originally in

12 opening is that the version we have got up on the

13 screens is a transcription which has been done by us.

14 It is the best we can make it. It may differ slightly

15 from the transcript that is attached to the exhibits to

16 this.

17 At paragraph 15, this officer goes:

18 "I cannot say exactly when the request for an

19 ambulance went out to ambulance control. My

20 recollection is that it was fairly obvious from the

21 noise and what was happening on the street that there

22 was a good possibility that we were going to have

23 casualties, so I would have dialled through to

24 Ambulance Control, which would have taken a few seconds.

25 I am in a position to say that the ambulances were on

1 their way by 01:49 because I transmitted, 'Roger, they

2 are en route, over'. At the moment when I called

3 Ambulance Control I would not have been able to talk to

4 people on the radio for a few moments, but that was the

5 norm. It was just a case of prioritising the tasks.

6 It is clear from the transcripts that I was not

7 told at any stage about the nature of the injuries that

8 had been sustained.

9 "At 01:49.18, Reserve Constable ..."

10 Sorry, I should have been able to pick up his --

11 Silcock:

12 "... came on channel 37 and asked, 'Have you tasked

13 the ambulance, over?' Reserve Constable Silcock was in the

14 same vehicle as ..."

15 This should be Constable Porter:

16 "... and was giving the call sign Juliet Bravo 70, which

17 would have been a patrol car. Reserve Constable Warnock then

18 said, 'See can you get some more, over'.

19 Reserve Constable Warnock was giving the call sign Juliet

20 Bravo 80, which was a different vehicle.

21 "I am reasonably certain that

22 Reserve Constable Silcock's crew was the first to arrive at

23 the scene as back-up, but there were a number of people

24 talking over each other so it was difficult to work out

25 who got there first.

1 At 01:46.15 in the transcript at page 15023,

2 Reserve Constable Warnock transmitted, 'We're at

3 Guildford Road roundabout and we're going as quick as

4 we can' but I do not know exactly when his vehicle arrived.

5 "It is clear from the transcript that both

6 crews were there at 01:49, some four minutes after

7 Reserve Constable Cornett initially asked for assistance.

8 Portadown town centre had barriers at that time and

9 so it was not possible to drive straight up the street.

10 Crews had to drive around the town and get into the town

11 centre via the police station."

12 That is up Edward Street:

13 "Just before 01:55, I received a transmission from

14 Constable A. As can be seen from page 10525 of the

15 transcript, she said at 01:55, 'Roger, will you check

16 your electoral register for a Wayne Lunt?' I knew

17 of Wayne Lunt and his family because I had had some

18 dealings with him relating to public order, family rows

19 and incidents on the estates. I have been asked whether

20 I was aware that Wayne Lunt had been arrested a few

21 weeks before at the Esso garage. I did not know anything

22 about that incident.

23 "When I checked the register for the address

24 Constable A had given me, I replied, 'There is nobody

25 listed at xxxxxxxxxx, over'. At 02:00.54, Constable A

1 asked me, 'Roger, any luck on [address redacted]'.

2 I replied, 'Sounds about right, wait one' and then I said,

3 'They used to live on [another address] but I am under

4 the impression they have moved out [another address] or

5 somewhere'. Constable Adams in JB70 might be able to help you

6 on that one, over. I was referring to

7 Reserve Constable Adams who was a member of another crew.

8 He had had more recent dealings with Wayne Lunt than I

9 had.

10 Constable A then transmitted, 'Roger, that's okay.

11 Constable Adams has cleared it with me.' Reserve Constable

12 Adams was bviously at the scene and confirmed Wayne's

13 identity for her.

14 "In the statement I gave on 20 August 2001,

15 contained at page 17268, I said 'I was aware that

16 Constable A from my own station at one time detained

17 Wayne Lunt because I'd carried out an address check

18 for her.' I knew this from the exchange I had with

19 Constable A on the radio.

20 "Later that night, Inspector McCrum directed me to get

21 the officers who had been on duty at the scene to come

22 back to the station because the situation had become a

23 lot more serious. Sergeant McClean or Inspector McCrum had

24 found out that Robert Hamill was in a far more serious

25 condition than was originally thought. I believe they

1 had either been to the hospital or been in contact with

2 it.

3 Because the incident seemed a lot more serious, we

4 requested CID and we needed more information about what

5 had happened because Headquarters would have to be informed.

6 "When the crews went off duty, they would have

7 come into the station, signed their radios in and in

8 doing so they would probably have talked a little bit

9 about the incident to me. They then would have gone

10 upstairs to write up the accounts book to make sure that

11 the full details were there, and they would have talked

12 to the Inspector and the Sergeant. I do not remember

13 having any conversation with anyone about what had happened.

14 "I know that PC Neill says that I spoke to him at

15 about 08:00 and that I passed the telephone to

16 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson during the call. I was asked

17 about this in my interview with DCI K and I refer to it

18 in my statement of 23 August 2001 at page numbers

19 17268 to 17270.

20 By 08:00, I was back in civilian clothes and was in

21 the process of leaving at the end of my shift. I had

22 telephoned PC Neill earlier to call him back in, but he

23 had not arrived. I said I would telephone him again

24 before I left because I had the number to hand. I do

25 not know exactly why PC Neill had not come in when asked

1 to, but I will give him the benefit the doubt and say he

2 had just fallen asleep."

3 That is in fact the account that he will give you,

4 that he was at the end of his long shift, gone home,

5 fallen asleep, had the phone call, fell back asleep and

6 had to be rung again:

7 "I do remember that Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson was the

8 first officer to come back into the station, but I do

9 not remember passing the telephone to him to speak to

10 PC Neill. However, if PC Neill says that I did, then all I

11 can say is that I did. I assume that calling PC Neill

12 was the last thing I did before leaving the station."

13 Finally at paragraph 25:

14 "I am sure I must have spoken to

15 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson about the incident when he came

16 into the station, but we would not have had a great deal

17 of information. He would have known more about it than

18 I did. I have been asked whether I socialised with

19 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson outside work. I did not, and I

20 was not a member of the Tae Kwon Do club in Portadown."

21 So until we get the officers who made the radio

22 transmissions in, that's the best we can do about

23 understanding the framework of it.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Just going back to the final sentence of

25 paragraph 11, I was confused by the last words:

1 "... trying to reply to me on the other."

2 I think it would be:

3 "... speak to me on the other."

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Because of course you couldn't reply if she

6 couldn't hear what was being said to her.

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. So I'm going to call now Reserve Constable Silcock.

8 GODFREY DEAN SILCOCK (sworn)

9 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

10 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the

11 Inquiry. I will ask questions to start with. I'm not going

12 to ask you your full names. What I'm going to ask you

13 to do is have a look at the statement on the screen and

14 identify whether it is yours, please. It is at

15 page [81159].

16 Can I first of all ask you whether the name at the

17 top is yours?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. If we can go through the pages of this fairly briefly --

20 there is about seven of them, I think. Is that your

21 statement?

22 A. That's my statement.

23 Q. Is it true?

24 A. Yes, it's true.

25 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to ask you to recite all of

1 the evidence in this. What I want to do is take you to

2 some paragraphs and ask you to elaborate and explain

3 a little, if you would.

4 Could we start with page [81159], paragraph 3. You

5 tell us in the first line who you were detailed with and

6 we will be able to help you -- I should just make sure

7 that before we go any further I have somebody sitting

8 next to you with a cipher list. Are you content to --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. You tell us who you were detailed with there

11 on mobile patrol. Can you tell us what your call sign

12 was?

13 A. JD70.

14 Q. Does that mean you were not a Land Rover?

15 A. No, that means we were in a saloon car.

16 Q. We know there was a Mondeo and we know there was another

17 saloon car. Do you recall what type of saloon car it

18 was?

19 A. I don't, no.

20 Q. Okay. Can you recall whether it was liveried?

21 A. I can't recall.

22 Q. Okay. In the final three lines or so of that you tell

23 us you drove into town via Bridge Street and then into

24 Market Street. Did you have to go through a barrier to

25 do that?

1 A. There was barriers at that time but they would have been

2 opened.

3 Q. At Bridge Street?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Because we know that at least two vehicles that were

6 back-up vehicles came up Edward Street and we have an

7 officer who opened the barriers in Edward Street for

8 them --

9 A. That's correct, yes.

10 Q. -- but we don't know whether yours was one of those.

11 You say not?

12 A. No, the barrier would have been open. It was a main

13 arterial barrier.

14 Q. Then if we go over the page to [81160], you tell us at

15 the top:

16 "When we arrived at the scene there was a large

17 number of people who appeared to be hostile. I estimate

18 there were about 60 civilians and four police officers. I saw two

19 men lying on the ground and there were women with them."

20 Now, could we have a look at a model, our standard

21 model, and see if you can help us with identifying that.

22 I don't know whether you have seen this before, have

23 you, officer?

24 A. No, I haven't.

25 Q. This is taken from a series of photographs and the

1 photographer in every case was standing just outside

2 Eastwoods clothing, if you recall where that was, the

3 top of Thomas Street?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me rotate this through 360 degrees for you so you

6 can familiarise yourself with it. Looking down

7 Thomas Street.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is Eastwoods, here looking up towards the church

10 and West Street. If we stop it there, can you help us

11 with where you saw the civilians, in which sort of area?

12 A. The civilians would have been on -- looking towards the

13 church, left-hand side of the street. One was near

14 where Eastwoods would be and the other was further up

15 towards the church.

16 Q. Are you able to mark on this for us -- you know we have

17 the facility to draw to this screen and if we just give

18 that you facility, which will take a moment. (Pause)

19 Right. You have the control of this now.

20 A. How exactly do I pan round towards the church?

21 Q. Let's come out of this screen shot then and pan it round

22 to the left. Tell us where to stop. Is that all right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Again, we need to make this a screen shot so you can

25 have control of ...

1 A. From roughly --

2 Q. Hold on a second. You don't have control yet. Right?

3 A. Okay, from memory one approximately there and one

4 slightly up a bit.

5 Q. Right. And we will call the one near to us number 1 and

6 the one further away number 2.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And to leap ahead, I know that eventually one of these

9 became known to you as Mr Hamill?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which one was Mr Hamill: number 1 or number 2?

12 A. From memory, number 2.

13 Q. Okay. And you have described the crowd of -- what you

14 said is a large number of people who appeared to be

15 hostile, about 60 of them and four police officers.

16 Relative to these people on the ground, where was the

17 crowd and where were the police officers?

18 A. The police officers would have been -- the police

19 officers were basically over the show, the four police

20 officers, when I arrived. The crowd were all around

21 near where the two people were lying and quite -- round

22 the show as well. It wasn't just compact. There was

23 quite a few all over the place, milling all over the

24 place.

25 Q. What was the interaction, if any, between the crowd and

1 the two people on the ground? Was the crowd trying get

2 at them? Was it ignoring them?

3 A. They weren't ignoring them, there was people around

4 them. I personally didn't see anyone assaulting the two

5 people on the ground, but there was fairly large vocal,

6 intent body language, which showed there was a lot of

7 aggression.

8 Q. Towards the men on the ground?

9 A. Towards the men on the ground and people listening, yes.

10 Q. Help us if you can about what the police officers were

11 doing. You said they were all over the shop?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were they attempting to control the crowd, in your view?

14 A. In my view they were, yes.

15 Q. Did they have anything to do with the men on the ground?

16 Were they attempting to protect them, were they fending

17 people off, were they trying to stop fights?

18 A. My recollection is they were trying to break up the

19 crowd, basically break up the crowd and try and keep

20 some sort of control and order.

21 Q. Now, we know that there were Catholics and there were

22 Protestants and they may have been fighting, or that one

23 side may have been attacking the other. Was it as neat

24 as that when you arrived and looked at it? Could you

25 tell who was who?

1 A. Personally my assumptions were that the ones on the

2 ground and the men with them, the small number, were

3 from -- Roman Catholic and the crowd were Protestant.

4 Q. Can you help us with what gave you that impression?

5 A. One, history; that Portadown is predominantly a

6 Protestant area; two, there has been loads of fracas

7 before and fights before in Portadown and it was just an

8 assumption I made at that time, my own thinking.

9 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [11051]. This is

10 a statement of somebody we are calling [Constable Adams] at the

11 moment.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it was made on 27 April 1997 and he, of course, was

14 the officer you were with, I think?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. And if we look about four lines down in this, five lines

17 down, he says in the middle of a line:

18 "On entering the town centre from Edward Street,

19 I observed a crowd of around 30 persons, both male and

20 female, in the area of Thomas Street where it joins

21 Market Street and High Street. On approaching this

22 point, I further observed that the police at the scene

23 were attempting to keep rival persons apart..."

24 So his view of it -- of course, we will hear from

25 him -- is that police, rather than trying break up

1 individual fights or randomly being around, were

2 directing themselves to keeping two rival factions

3 apart. Your impression is it wasn't that

4 straightforward?

5 A. My impression is they were trying to keep a bit of order

6 within that, yes.

7 Q. Okay. And if we go back to your statement,

8 page [81160], paragraph 5, you say:

9 "The four police officers were running around trying

10 to keep the crowd away from the men on the ground, and I

11 think some had their batons drawn."

12 Is that still your recollection?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. If we go down to paragraph 6, you say you saw

15 a police Land Rover marked at the position you have

16 marked on the map, and again, I'm sorry to leap about,

17 but can we go back to the model and go round to the

18 right. We have placed the Land Rover there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You can see that's in the mouth of Edward Street, parked

21 at an angle more over to the right-hand side than the

22 left-hand side. And the purpose of putting it there is

23 to see what witnesses say about that. Don't take it

24 because it is there that that is necessarily anybody

25 else's evidence. How does that square with your

1 recollection?

2 A. My recollection will be it would be further down, but I

3 can't say.

4 Q. Right. Going back to your --

5 THE CHAIRMAN: That's to the right in the photograph as you

6 look at it?

7 A. Yes, towards -- away from the church end.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Outside the Halifax or even further to the

10 right?

11 A. Just --

12 Q. We can pan it round to the right, obviously.

13 A. Please, yes. My recollection would be round about the

14 Halifax, just at the far end of the Halifax.

15 Q. So right-hand side of the Halifax?

16 A. Round about, yes.

17 Q. Okay. If we could go back to the your statement,

18 please, at [81161], paragraph 8, the second half of

19 this, you say:

20 "During the fracas, there were about 30 people near

21 Mr D. At one point they were about two to three feet

22 away. I had to take out my baton and physically push

23 the crowd back. I could hear people in the crowd

24 saying, 'I hope they die' but I did not see anyone trying

25 to attack Mr D whilst he lay on the ground."

1 So you have got 50 or 60 people in general spread

2 about, as you said. You have got officers doing -- only

3 four of them -- doing their best to keep some sort of

4 order, two men on the ground and you said from what the

5 crowd were saying and their body language there was

6 a lot of aggression towards the man on the ground. Did

7 you have to take your baton out and physically push the

8 crowd back in order to stop them attacking them, or

9 what?

10 A. When I was there, they were getting rather close to the

11 two people on the ground and their demeanour, et cetera,

12 showed that they were quite aggressive. I took my baton

13 out and actually physically pushed. I never struck

14 anyone with my baton, but physically pushed them.

15 Q. Were other officers helping you with that?

16 A. I can't honestly remember.

17 Q. Were you successful in keeping them away?

18 A. I believe I was, yes -- yes.

19 Q. If we go down to paragraph 9, you tell us in the third

20 sentence that you are trained in first aid and you put

21 your hand on Mr Hamill's back to turn him over into the

22 recovery position. And you say:

23 "It was clear to me from the vibration I felt in his

24 back as I moved him that he was definitely having

25 difficulty breathing."

1 Can you expand on that for us about the state he was

2 in?

3 A. The state he was in, he appeared to be unconscious.

4 There was people with him. I tried to get him into the

5 recovery position as best I could. As I put my hand up

6 his back, I felt vibration from his breathing showing he

7 had strained breathing, he had difficulty breathing,

8 which concerned me. I tried to put him in the recovery

9 position, checked round his head and stuff. There was

10 no glass or anything like that, and I checked his mouth

11 to make sure there was nothing blocking his breathing.

12 Q. I know it is a long time ago and this is very fine

13 detail I'm asking you about. If I push you too far in

14 trying to recall detail, tell me. Could the difficulty

15 in breathing have been discerned without putting your

16 hand on his back, do you think?

17 A. I suppose if you looked at him long enough you might

18 have, but -- I don't know. I don't honestly know.

19 Q. All right. If we turn over to page [81162], you are

20 dealing here with Rory Robinson and Stacey Bridgett.

21 The top paragraph deals with Rory Robinson, and you say

22 in that, second sentence:

23 "I am unable to say if Rory Robinson shouted actually

24 those words ..."

25 That's, "I hope they die":

1 "... but I recall that he was in a very aggressive

2 state in that he was shouting and his body was tensed up

3 and his eyes were wild looking."

4 You talk about the body language and verbal abuse.

5 How clear are you that Rory Robinson was a participant

6 in the aggressive crowd?

7 A. He was there, he was shouting. I was close up,

8 obviously, to see, and from seeing his demeanour and

9 everything else, but I know he was at that scene.

10 Q. And if we go down to paragraph 11, you tell us there

11 about a woman wearing a white top pointing out a youth

12 in the crowd and an allegation that he had jumped on the

13 head of Robert Hamill. And you say you looked over at

14 him:

15 "He was smaller than Rory Robinson and was wearing a grey

16 tracksuit top."

17 You can hear people calling him Stacey. You saw him

18 react to that by turning around and he had blood coming

19 from his nose. And you say that you were close enough

20 to see from his eyes that he was excited.

21 If you had had the opportunity, would you have

22 arrested him?

23 A. If I had had the opportunity, I like to think I would

24 have.

25 Q. That's not a critical question.

1 A. Unfortunately, the opportunity wasn't there and the

2 circumstances didn't dictate it.

3 Q. But that was sufficient for you to have reason to

4 believe that he had committed an offence, was it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is the same true of Robinson?

7 A. In that would I have arrested him?

8 Q. If you had had the chance, yes, from what you saw him

9 doing?

10 A. I don't know on Robinson --

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. -- to be honest.

13 Q. If we go over the page to page [81163], at paragraph 15

14 you tell us in the final couple of sentences:

15 "At that stage I do not think that I had been

16 trained in scene preservation."

17 You go on to say you don't recall any instructions

18 being given to you to preserve the scene. Can I just

19 get you to look at what appears to be your training

20 record, [72554]? This record -- you don't need to go

21 through it, just take it from me for the moment -- shows

22 that there was no training in scene preservation. Can

23 you just confirm it is your record print?

24 A. It appears to be, yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Then if we go to page [81165] -- this is

1 back in your statement -- at the top couple of lines you

2 talk about your witness statement made on 27 April, and

3 you say:

4 "Once I was finished, I think ..."

5 It goes on:

6 "... I handed my statement to Detective Sergeant

7 ..."

8 And it gives a name there. It is [DS Lawther] we are calling

9 him.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you clear about that because he has told us he

12 wasn't back into the station until 28 April?

13 A. I thought at that time I had handed it to that person.

14 Q. Okay. Right. I just want to ask some general questions

15 of you now.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: You say:

17 "Once I was finished, I think I discussed it with

18 anyone."

19 Is it:

20 "... I don't think I discussed it with anyone."

21 Or:

22 "... I discussed it with anyone who would listen"?

23 A. No, I don't think I discussed it with anyone. I didn't

24 discuss it with anyone.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: I just want to ask you some general questions

2 that I'm going to ask officers who attended the scene.

3 Did anything you did or failed to do on that night

4 have anything to do with your attitude towards

5 Catholics?

6 A. Totally not.

7 Q. Did you see any individual involved in a fight or any

8 sectarian activity and then fail to report it to

9 detectives?

10 A. No, not that I recall.

11 Q. Did you pull any person who was kicking Mr Hamill off

12 him?

13 A. Not that I recall.

14 Q. The closest you came to that was that you had your baton

15 out --

16 A. Yes, pushing --

17 Q. Didn't use it and that was to keep people from being

18 close. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Finally, we have heard evidence from a witness who says

21 that he had, on more than one occasion, seen fighting in

22 the town centre and he had seen a police Land Rover

23 present at the fighting and the police didn't get out of

24 the Land Rover -- not on this occasion, on other

25 occasions, and to be fair, he said those fights didn't

1 generally result in serious injury. Did you have any

2 experience of seeing or being in a Land Rover when

3 fighting was going on in the town centre and police not

4 getting out?

5 A. No.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well, thank you very much. Other people

7 may have some questions for you.

8 Questions by MR FERGUSON

9 MR FERGUSON: When you arrived at the scene, what you saw

10 was a crowd of about 60 civilians. Is that right?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And four police officers?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. And four police officers trying to deal with the

15 civilians?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Of course, when you arrived, it would not have been

18 apparent to you certainly immediately that the two

19 bodies on the ground -- whether they were Loyalist or

20 Nationalist or what they were?

21 A. Did you mean did I know straight away if they were

22 Loyalists or Nationalists?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Very soon after I did, but at the time I couldn't say

25 exactly --

1 Q. But when you arrived it would not have been apparent to

2 you immediately as to what they were?

3 A. No, sir, it wasn't.

4 Q. They were just two injured people lying on the ground?

5 A. That is correct, sir.

6 Q. And you instinctively then commenced to do your best to

7 keep other people away from injuring those two people

8 lying on the ground?

9 A. Yes, that would have been my intention, yes.

10 MR FERGUSON: Yes, thank you.

11 A. Thank you, sir.

12 Questions by MR McGRORY

13 MR McGRORY: I have some questions, if I may.

14 MR ADAIR: I think according to our custom, I'm going to go

15 last.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly.

17 MR McGRORY: Reserve Constable Silcock, I'm going to ask you

18 some questions on behalf of the Hamill family. I want to

19 ask you first, Reserve Constable Silcock, just about the

20 impression that you got of these people who were around

21 Robert Hamill when you went over to him.

22 You have already been asked about your description

23 of them and the excitement that was generated by their

24 actions in their faces, and I think in your interview

25 with the Inquiry -- it is at page 30 of your

1 interview -- you referred to one of them. They are

2 basically Stacey Bridgett and Rory Robinson and you

3 referred to Rory Robinson as someone in whose eyes you

4 had never seen such excitement. Is that your

5 recollection?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Now, when you used the phrase you had never seen such

8 excitement in his eyes, had you come across this man

9 before?

10 A. Rory Robinson I would have known from general police

11 duties in Portadown, yes.

12 Q. Yes. Referring specifically to Stacey Bridgett, had you

13 come across him before?

14 A. No, I hadn't, no.

15 Q. So when you used the phrase:

16 "I had never seen such excitement in his eyes."

17 You mean you had never seen such excitement in

18 anybody's eyes?

19 A. Yes, in a general term, yes.

20 Q. I just want to clarify that. You see, what I'm going to

21 suggest to you is that what may be remarkable about this

22 is that these two guys in particular you are able to

23 identify, that they had no inhibitions whatsoever about

24 approaching this man on the ground in an aggressive way

25 in front of a police officer. Is that your memory?

1 A. Yes, sir, it is.

2 Q. And that had you not been there, it is your recollection

3 that they would have attacked him in front of you had

4 you not apprehended them?

5 A. I don't know -- I would have assumed that would have

6 happened.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: That is conjecture, not a proper question.

8 MR McGRORY: Well, I was simply trying to get the witness's

9 impression of the extent of the aggression towards

10 Mr Hamill, sir.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Without more, the question is not

12 appropriate. If there were evidence that he was handing

13 his jacket to someone to hold for him -- that's a rather

14 silly example -- but putting one foot forward and

15 leaning forward, that might permit such a question but

16 not as far as it goes at the moment.

17 MR McGRORY: As you please, sir.

18 Now, Reserve Constable Silcock, just in terms of what you

19 did with Mr Hamill on the ground, we have evidence from a

20 witness who also goes by the name of F. I'm not allowed to

21 mention her name. She would have been one of those who

22 was related to Mr Hamill and was present. She gave

23 evidence on 26 January -- page 73 of her evidence --

24 that no one came to help. But obviously that cannot be

25 correct -- is that right? -- in view of what you have

1 said?

2 A. I was there to help.

3 Q. Yes. Now, what I want to ask you about this further is the

4 ambulanceman, at page [81204], if I could have that please --

5 I just want you to have a look at what he says, Reserve

6 Constable Silcock, because it is at paragraph 9. You see that:

7 "The second casualty, who I now know to have been

8 Robert Hamill, was further up Market Street away from the mouth

9 the Thomas Street closer to the central reservation.

10 Mr Hamill was lying on his back and he was unconscious."

11 Now, the ambulanceman is saying he was lying on his

12 back, which would suggest that he wasn't in the recovery

13 position, Reserve Constable Silcock. What is your memory of

14 how you left him lying?

15 A. I left him on his side with the people he was with in

16 the recovery position.

17 Q. Are you suggesting then that the ambulanceman must have

18 been wrong about this?

19 A. Whenever he was left by me, he was in the recovery

20 position.

21 Q. Very well. Now, if I could just ask you about

22 paragraph 11 of your statement to the Inquiry -- sir, I

23 do not have a page reference numbers on my --

24 MR ADAIR: [81162].

25 MR McGRORY: [81162]. I'm grateful to Mr Adair. [81162]. At

1 the beginning of this paragraph, Reserve Constable Silcock,

2 your recollection of a woman wearing a white top pointing

3 out a youth to you in the crowd. She alleged that he had

4 jumped on the ahead of Robert Hamill. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Now, you refer to this in some of your original, more

7 contemporaneous statements as well and you appear to

8 identify the person that she identified to you as

9 Stacey Bridgett, because you hear him answering to that

10 name a short time later. Do you agree with the fact?

11 A. Yes, I agree with you, yes.

12 Q. He was the chap who you said had such excitement in his

13 eyes. Also note this intervention by this woman in your

14 notebook. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It is in (inaudible). Now, is it the case obviously

17 that you didn't approach her to find out who she was?

18 A. Just at that time, unfortunately, the situation

19 didn't -- couldn't allow me to do that.

20 Q. Could you not have just said to her, "Sorry, what's your

21 name?"

22 A. In hindsight it could have been done, but at that time I

23 didn't.

24 Q. Do you understand that she was potentially a very

25 important witness? Do you understand why that would be

1 the case?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Because she was telling you that she had witnessed that

4 particular man kick Robert Hamill?

5 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.

6 Q. And that in terms of the efficiency of the

7 investigation, it would have been very, very useful to

8 the investigation to have known who that woman was. Do

9 you agree with that?

10 A. Yes, I agree with you, yes.

11 Q. But are you saying that you didn't have the time to find out

12 who she was or it didn't occur to you, Reserve Constable Silcock?

13 A. At that time I just hadn't the time to do that with

14 everything that was going on.

15 Q. You were able to identify some of the people around as

16 relatives. Is that right?

17 A. Yes, cousins and stuff, yes.

18 Q. So you were able to do that. How did you ascertain

19 that, Reserve Constable Silcock, that they were relatives?

20 A. It must have been conversations I had at the scene, you

21 know.

22 Q. So you had sufficient conversation with some of the

23 people to ascertain that at least they were relatives?

24 A. They would have been very quick questions. "I'm

25 a cousin" or, "Yes, I'm with this man". Something like

1 that. There wasn't great detail given.

2 Q. Do you not accept, Reserve Constable Silcock, that it

3 wouldn't have taken a lot to ask this woman in the

4 white cardigan what her name was?

5 A. It wouldn't have taken a lot in slow time to do that.

6 Unfortunately, with the case going around me and all, I

7 didn't do it.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember at what stage you learned

9 from conversations that some women were cousins?

10 A. Just whenever the men were on the ground and I was

11 working with them.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

13 MR McGRORY: Can I turn, Reserve Constable Silcock, to

14 paragraph 19 of your statement? Perhaps we could have

15 that on the screen. It would be helpful. Thank you.

16 Now, in this paragraph you describe, when you go

17 back to the station, part of the scene, and when you

18 completed your notebook, you can't remember when or

19 where you were in the station, but when you were about

20 to terminate duty for the day you were called to the

21 CID. It was approximately 8 am. There are a number of

22 names of police personnel. I'm not going to use those

23 names; you can see them.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, is it correct that at no point up until the point

1 that you left the police station -- at no point did

2 anybody sit you down and say, "Give us a account of what

3 you saw and what you did"?

4 A. I can't remember that being done.

5 Q. But you seem to have entered up your notebook off your

6 own bat. Something that you would have done anyway?

7 A. Yes, it is something I normally do, yes.

8 Q. And of course the entry about the woman in the white

9 cardigan is in the notebook. So you were sufficiently

10 conscious of the importance of it to put it in the

11 notebook?

12 A. Yes, the lady in the white top.

13 Q. Yes, back in the police station, and about what she had

14 seen. But at that point did it not occur to you, Reserve

15 Constable Silcock, to say to some of those more senior people

16 in the police station, "Look, there is something of significance

17 here. What I was told by the woman in the white cardigan?"

18 A. Sorry, could you --

19 Q. Did you pass that information on to any of those people

20 who were around you in the police station?

21 A. I can't remember doing that, no. I can't remember

22 passing it on.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: What happens to your notebook when you have

24 written up your note?

25 A. I hold on to it until it is finished and then it is put

1 by. I would use for making statements.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: So there is no routine inspection of it by

3 someone else?

4 A. Not at the end of each shift or anything, no.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

6 MR McGRORY: We know that you didn't think to volunteer that

7 information to anyone, but what I'm talking about here

8 is whether or not you were debriefed -- do you

9 understand that term?

10 A. Yes, I do understand the term debrief, yes.

11 Q. Would you have understood it then? Would you have had

12 a debrief before?

13 A. I don't recall a debrief taking place, a formal debrief

14 or a debrief taking place that morning.

15 Q. Maybe you have told us already and I have missed it, but

16 how long had you been on the police force in May 1997?

17 A. I joined in May 1988.

18 Q. Is you were quite experienced?

19 A. Some eight or nine years.

20 Q. Can we presume, Reserve Constable Silcock, that you had

21 been on the scene of some serious incidents in your time?

22 A. A few but not numerous, but a few, yes.

23 Q. Public order incidents?

24 A. Nothing as drastic as this one.

25 Q. And after such an incident, have you had any experience

1 of somebody more senior saying to you, "Tell me what

2 happened, what did you see"?

3 A. No, I can't, I can't recall it happening.

4 Q. So that had never happened to you before?

5 A. Not in public order things in the town centre, no.

6 Q. No. But certainly, before you left the police station

7 this particular morning at 8 am, a number of more senior

8 people had arrived on this scene. That's your

9 recollection?

10 A. That's correct, yes, CID, yes.

11 Q. And by this time it was being discussed that this was

12 a serious incident, in that these injuries to Mr Hamill

13 were pretty serious?

14 A. Yes, at that time, yes.

15 Q. And even in that context nobody said, "Well, tell me

16 what happened in your own words. Give me more

17 information, give me more detail." Nobody asked you

18 that question?

19 A. I can't remember that being asked of you.

20 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: It does say in paragraph 19:

21 "We were all asked to make statements."

22 MR McGRORY: Yes, and indeed in the statement that you'd

23 made you mention the fact that a lady in a white

24 cardigan had spoken to you. Just have a look there.

25 MR UNDERWOOD: Page [09220].

1 MR McGRORY: Yes, thank you. Because I think you do mention

2 it in one of your statements, all right, about the woman

3 in the white cardigan, I can't just quite find it at the

4 moment.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Page [09220].

6 MR McGRORY: I haven't my glasses. Yes, thank you. That's

7 very helpful. Thank you, Mr Underwood.

8 So in this statement which you made on 27 April --

9 this is obviously the statement that you made before you

10 left the police station -- you have actually -- you have

11 translated what you had in your notebook onto your

12 statement?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: If you read over the page to see what you

15 allege.

16 MR McGRORY: Indeed, over the page you actually say that:

17 "One of the rowdy youths was pointed out to me by a

18 woman wearing a white top, who alleged [09221] that this youth

19 had jumped on the head of one of the injured men."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you finished making this statement to whom did you

23 give it? Can you remember?

24 A. I gave it to CID personnel.

25 Q. I don't want you to mention any names.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: He has got a chart.

4 MR McGRORY: Can you refresh your memory at all from the

5 chart?

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Paragraph 19, he can look that up on the

7 chart.

8 MR McGRORY: You mention a number of names in paragraph 19

9 of your statement.

10 A. From memory, I think I gave it to DS Lawther.

11 Q. Now, was it read in your presence at all?

12 A. I can't remember, I can't honestly remember.

13 Q. But certainly nobody said to you, "Can you tell us

14 anything more about the woman in the white cardigan"?

15 A. I can't remember anybody asking that.

16 Q. Can you describe her? Can you identify her as one of

17 the relatives? Nobody pressed you on this?

18 A. I can't remember anyone pressing me on it at all.

19 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.

20 Questions by MS DINSMORE

21 MS DINSMORE: I appear on behalf of Robert Atkinson. Could you just

22 help the Inquiry with anything you observed in relation

23 to what Robert Atkinson was doing at the scene?

24 A. Yes, he was -- Robert Atkinson was out with a baton and was quite

25 proactive.

1 Q. When you say "quite proactive", who was he proactive

2 towards?

3 A. The crowd in question.

4 Q. Was that crowd in question the Loyalist crowd?

5 A. As far as I remember, yes.

6 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.

7 Questions by MR GREEN

8 MR GREEN: I have just one question. When you arrived at

9 the scene -- I think you were one of the first back-up

10 police officers to arrive; isn't that right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. You would be very rapidly assessing the situation in

13 front of you; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes, I mean -- from memory, yes.

15 Q. To see what assistance you could give to your colleagues

16 who were already there; is that right?

17 A. Yes, the situation.

18 Q. The two persons who you have given us a account of

19 seeing -- of you seeing doing something -- were persons

20 who were not known to you at the time; isn't that right?

21 A. Naming names, Mr Robinson I knew from the general police

22 duties, the other boy, Mr Bridgett, I didn't know.

23 Q. You see, that is in your statement at paragraph 10, I

24 think, if you knew Mr Robinson from your general police

25 duties. But could I ask you to look at your original

1 statement, dated 27 April, page [09221]. Just

2 highlight -- and you tell us there about the person who

3 responded to the name Stacey:

4 "Another youth was wearing a bright yellow/orange

5 shirt with a black check. This youth had dark-ish hair.

6 I now know this person to be Rory Robinson."

7 Then you give the address. That seems to indicate

8 that at the time you saw what was happening you didn't

9 in fact know Rory Robinson, in that the name at some

10 stage thereafter was given to you, a name to the person.

11 Do you understand that?

12 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.

13 Q. Can you help with us that?

14 A. Yes, I had known Rory Robinson from general police

15 duties from Portadown.

16 Q. Yes, but at the time that statement is made --

17 A. I see the way it is phrased, yes.

18 Q. It is dated 27 April 1997 and it seems to indicate quite

19 strongly that at the time you were recording the details

20 of what that person was doing, you didn't know him

21 because why else would you say:

22 "I now know this person"?

23 A. Yes, the phrase would give that impression, but I did

24 know Rory Robinson from general police duties.

25 Q. You did know him?

1 A. From general police duties.

2 MR GREEN: Thank you.

3 Questions by MR BERRY

4 MR BERRY: Constable, you have described arriving at the

5 scene and going to a person you now know to be D?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that was before you attended on Robert Hamill; is

8 that correct?

9 A. That's correct, yes.

10 Q. Do you have any recollection now of what D was wearing?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you made a statement on 24 May 1997 and you gave

13 a description of what that person was wearing -- that's

14 [00702] -- you say about five or six lines down:

15 "Number 1 was a male dressed in shirt and trousers."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And then you identify that person as being D?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you made that statement, was that matter fresh in

21 your recollection at that time?

22 A. I can't honestly -- I can't honestly remember.

23 Q. The second man I want to ask you about is -- two

24 witnesses have indicated that the women who were with

25 Robert Hamill were verbally aggressive to the police.

1 A. The women?

2 Q. Yes. Now, the first thing I want to ask you: apart from

3 you, when you were with Robert Hamill, was any other

4 police officer in the immediate vicinity of

5 Robert Hamill apart from you?

6 A. I can't remember anyone, but I thought that the

7 constable that I was driving was behind me, so he was.

8 Q. Well, when you were attending Robert Hamill, there were

9 a number of people with him; isn't that correct?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. And some of those people were women. Isn't that right?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. Were any of those women verbally aggressive to you?

14 A. I don't recall any women being verbally aggressive to

15 myself.

16 Q. Even going on from that, a paramedic, a Mr Glen Stewart,

17 he has indicated in fact that the women, or a woman,

18 prevented you from giving first aid to Robert Hamill.

19 Is that your recollection?

20 A. Sorry, I can't -- I don't remember any woman being

21 physically or verbally aggressive towards me. Maybe

22 there was one that was really protective of him. That

23 would have been maybe an obstruction, but I can't

24 remember anyone actually being physically or verbally

25 aggressive of a female nature.

1 Q. You had administered what first aid you could to

2 Robert Hamill; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR BERRY: Thank you.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

6 Questions by MR McCOMB

7 MR McCOMB: Just a few questions. Most of the ground has

8 already been covered. Just an answer to the last

9 question from the last colleague of mine. You were

10 being asked which other officers did you remember being

11 in the immediate vicinity of Mr Hamill as he was lying

12 on the ground. Your recollection was it was your

13 colleague, Constable Adams, who you had driven who had arrived with

14 you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the same car. Isn't that right?

17 Now, perhaps it is not fair to put this to you, but

18 do you recall whether he was perhaps on the opposite

19 side of the road at some stage, dealing with the crowd

20 at the Woodhouse Street entrance? It may be that that

21 is what his evidence will be -- I don't know -- but it

22 appears to be perhaps part of the statement.

23 A. I couldn't be 100 per cent clear on that.

24 Q. Indeed.

25 A. It would be wrong of me to say.

1 Q. Indeed. But when you are trying to recall -- and

2 I appreciate it is difficult -- what other fellow

3 officers were with you or close to you as you were with

4 Mr Hamill as he was lying on the ground, is that the

5 only officer whom you can recall being present in that

6 immediate vicinity at the time that you were with him?

7 A. The only one I recall who was with me, yes.

8 Q. And just so I'm clear -- we may be clear about this --

9 when you say in that vicinity, do you mean by that in

10 the immediate vicinity of Mr Hamill?

11 A. In the close vicinity of my myself, yes.

12 Q. And you were with Mr Hamill at the time?

13 A. I couldn't 100 per cent say, yes, that gentleman was

14 behind me whenever I was attending, I couldn't --

15 Q. I'm trying to ask you --

16 A. I'm trying to give an honest answer.

17 Q. Just to try and get a picture, you do have a picture of

18 a crowd of people?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Some of whom were more excited than others. And we have

21 different accounts of this. It may be that there were

22 some fights going on with small groups of people,

23 perhaps one-to-one or something like that, around the

24 time that you had arrived and were present. Would you

25 have any recollection of that?

1 A. No, I don't, sir.

2 Q. And so far as Mr Robinson or Mr Bridgett are concerned,

3 or indeed anybody else, is it fair to say that you never

4 saw them trying to strike or kick anybody, either D

5 or --

6 A. No, I never actually saw them trying to strike or kick

7 them at that stage, no.

8 Q. Just in relation to the lady with the white top, did she

9 appear to you to be one of what we now know to be the

10 Protestant crowd or did she appear to you to be somebody

11 who was with or of the same faith as the two injured

12 men?

13 A. The lady in the white top I thought was from the Roman

14 Catholic side.

15 Q. Yes. When she spoke to you, was she right beside

16 Mr Hamill?

17 A. She would have been in the close vicinity.

18 Q. And do you recall that there were one or two, or what

19 number of ladies would have been in that group, in

20 Mr Hamill's ...?

21 A. I think four, I think -- well, I couldn't be

22 100 per cent, but --

23 Q. Four --

24 A. I think four women, but I couldn't be 100 per cent.

25 Q. I see. Thank you very much. Perhaps the only thing

1 perhaps to say -- but it may be more a matter of

2 comment -- that none of the ladies that's given evidence

3 here could recall having said anything to you or any

4 other officer about a man having attacked Mr Hamill, but

5 you can't comment on that, can you?

6 A. I can't comment on that.

7 MR McCOMB: Thank you.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair, I see the time. Would you prefer

9 to do this at 20 past two?

10 MR ADAIR: I'm aware of certain knowledge about a personal

11 situation involving this witness's father. Would you

12 prefer I dealt with you now?

13 A. I would prefer if it was dealt with now.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, carry on.

15 Questions by MR ADAIR

16 MR ADAIR: I will not be very long, sir.

17 Could you put up page [81160], please? If we can

18 highlight paragraph 5, we see in paragraph 5 that you

19 told the Inquiry that four police officers were running

20 around trying to keep the crowd away from the men on the

21 ground and I think some with their batons drawn. Is

22 that still your recollection today?

23 A. Yes, it would be, yes.

24 Q. Now, if you could go turnover to [81162], please, you

25 will remember -- and I think it possibly was just an

1 error that was being put to you by Mr McGrory, that it

2 was Stacey Bridgett you described as the person with the

3 eyes rolling. Maybe you don't remember being asked

4 about that. If you look at paragraph 10 -- just

5 highlight the top -- you say:

6 "He was in the group of people that were shouting,

7 'I hope they die, they die'. I'm not able to say if

8 Rory Robinson shouted actually those words, but I recall

9 that he was in a very aggressive state in that he was

10 shouting and his body was tensed up and his eyes were

11 wild-looking."

12 So when you are talking about the person with wild

13 eyes, are you talking Rory Robinson or the man called

14 Stacey?

15 A. Stacey Bridgett, I remember his eyes. Rory Robinson --

16 how -- had excited looking eyes as well.

17 Q. So it is both of them, really?

18 A. Yes, it would have been.

19 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you if you can help us about this,

20 please tell us: you had said that one of the barriers

21 was up, the main or arterial barrier would have been up

22 that night, is what I picked up from your evidence. Are

23 you sure about that?

24 A. I can't be 100 per cent sure now, but I thought it was

25 when I was writing up.

1 Q. Well, were there any cars driving about the street when

2 you went down?

3 A. Not that I remember.

4 Q. No.

5 A. I'm working from memory 12 years ago. Not that

6 I actually remember, no.

7 Q. Throughout the time that you were there, did you see any

8 cars making their way down High Street, Market Street?

9 A. I can't recall.

10 Q. Now, I want to ask you just briefly about this business

11 of debriefing. I know you have told us you have been on

12 relatively few public order incidents. Is that right?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. First of all, what do you understand by the term

15 "debriefing"?

16 A. My understanding, or personal view, is that whenever

17 people ask actually what I see happened, basically going

18 through what actually happened on that incident, you

19 know, I'm meaning senior officers or people interested,

20 they would want to know what happened, you would tell

21 them your side of the story. That's my thinking of

22 debriefing.

23 Q. Have you ever had one of those?

24 A. I have had a few, yes, to do with different incidents

25 and stuff, yes.

1 Q. Have you ever had one on a public order incident?

2 A. Not that I recall, no. Not prior to Mr Hamill's murder.

3 Q. So post Mr Hamill's murder, can you help us as to

4 whether the incidents of being talked to or debriefed by

5 more senior officers has increased in your experience?

6 A. It has increased in my experience. I am no longer in

7 the role I was in in Portadown. I'm now in a different

8 role. So if a public order would be -- I would attend

9 more public order problems (inaudible), more

10 debriefings, in these past several years, over these

11 past number of years, yes.

12 Q. Again, I'm not exactly sure -- I just want your help on

13 this: is a debriefing an officer getting a -- senior

14 officer getting all the people who have been at the

15 scene into a room and asking them all, in each other's

16 presence, what they saw? Is it getting individual

17 officers into a room and asking them what they saw?

18 What is it?

19 A. My debriefings have been to basically tell my sergeant

20 or inspector, telling them. I never actually did it in

21 open forum as such.

22 Q. So it would be person to person?

23 A. In my experience, identify to say it would be

24 person-to-person, yes.

25 Q. And would that be before or after you had made a witness

1 statement?

2 A. Any I have done have actually been before I made my

3 statement.

4 Q. At the time of this, in April 1997, had you ever had

5 a debriefing in a public order incident?

6 A. Not that I ever remember, no.

7 Q. How many would you have had since?

8 A. Several. I couldn't put a number on it. Obviously not

9 dozen and dozens.

10 Q. Several, what is several?

11 A. Large ones, probably half a dozen. That's where I'm

12 working now, where I have been more involved in public

13 disorder. Whilst being an ordinary patrol constable,

14 I don't remember any basically after that.

15 Q. Well, was there anything more you could have told, for

16 example, in this case, a debriefing officer than you had

17 already put in your statement?

18 A. I don't believe so, no.

19 Q. You are obviously still a serving police officer?

20 A. Yes, I'm still a serving police officer at present, yes.

21 Q. Were you served with what's known as a Form 17/3 at one

22 stage by the investigation team that were investigating

23 internal disciplinary matters?

24 A. Yes, I was, yes.

25 Q. Turn up page [10712], please. So is this the 17/3 that

1 got served on you at that stage? You told us you joined

2 the police when?

3 A. 31 May 1988.

4 Q. So you would have been a police officer for about

5 13 years at that stage?

6 A. No, about nine years. Sorry, when this was served?

7 Q. Yes, 2001?

8 A. Yes, that would have been right, yes.

9 Q. And we will see that it was alleged that you neglected

10 your duty, in that whilst you removed glass away from

11 the area, from the man's head, you took no appropriate

12 action, I think that is -- to secure and preserve same,

13 I think that's meant to be, in accordance with force

14 instructions and that you neglected your duty in

15 preserving the scene and that you failed to effect the

16 early arrests of suspects or consider the seizure of

17 clothing belonging to this suspect or suspects for the

18 purposes of forensic examination.

19 Now, had you anything -- first of all, had you any

20 training in scene preservation in 1997?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Had you ever received as much as half a day's training

23 in scene preservation?

24 A. Not --

25 Q. Or an hour? Had you received five minutes' training in

1 it?

2 A. Not that I remember, no.

3 Q. As far as you are concerned, did you have any role to

4 play in the preservation of the scene where this

5 incident was concerned?

6 A. No, I didn't believe on a personal basis, no.

7 Q. And in relation to the other allegations, do you believe

8 you had any role to play in any of those allegations?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How did you feel when you got -- I'm sorry, if we go to

11 the next page, [10713], this is also -- am I right in

12 saying -- the allegation that was made against you by

13 this team:

14 "Because of the shortfalls in the investigative

15 processes, a number of persons who were subsequently

16 acquitted at court of serious criminal offences. In

17 addition, as a result of the aforementioned allegations,

18 you have brought the reputation of the force into

19 disrepute and your actions were contrary to the Force

20 Ethics on professional policing."

21 Were you aware that you were being accused of a lack

22 of integrity, Mr ...?

23 A. Once I got this here, I was made aware of it. I was

24 absolutely gutted on a personal thing.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we should note the date of that,

1 22 June 2001.

2 A. Yes, which was several years after that. I was

3 absolutely angry, for getting this. I didn't think

4 I did anything wrong. To be accused of that there,

5 self-esteem-wise, I felt somewhat annoyed as well.

6 MR ADAIR: Now, these are a series of very serious

7 allegations that this form set out against you,

8 including bringing the reputation of the police force

9 into disrepute.

10 If you go to page [10252], do you remember then

11 being interviewed by two officers concerning these

12 allegations?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These serious allegations which left you in the state

15 you have described, we will see that your interview

16 started at 09:51. If we look about six lines down, and

17 four lines up from the bottom, your interview ended at

18 10:15?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. So including all the preliminary introductions that were

21 made to you and so on about the nature of the

22 allegations, the interview that was conducted with you

23 lasted all of 25 minutes. Is that right?

24 A. That would be right, yes.

25 Q. Did you ever receive any notification about the outcome

1 of it?

2 A. I can't remember receiving any official notification.

3 I'm saying I can't remember, I'm not saying I didn't.

4 Q. I understand.

5 A. I can't remember.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you receive any unofficial notification?

7 A. Yes, I was told that there would be nothing forthcoming

8 from it.

9 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

10 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Just a few questions arising, if I may. You

12 have been asked about the lady with the white top who

13 pointed out Stacey Bridgett. Can you recall any other

14 aspects of her clothing?

15 A. No, I can't.

16 Q. The only other matter I want to ask you about is

17 debriefing after public order incidents. You told us

18 that prior to the one we are talking about here, you

19 hadn't received a debriefing after a public order

20 incident. But what I want to ask you is had you

21 experienced a public order incident with a serious

22 injury like this one prior to this?

23 A. No, I hadn't.

24 Q. Just so that we can all understand how these things

25 worked, in this jurisdiction, do I gather this

1 correctly, that in 1997 at least if you witnessed

2 something or were involved in something and you then

3 completed your notebook entry, you didn't compile your

4 notebook entry together with other officers who had

5 seen it?

6 A. I believe some did, but I didn't.

7 Q. Hm-mm. And as a matter practice, you didn't do that?

8 A. That was my personal ...

9 Q. So, so far as you were concerned, when you came to make

10 notebook entries in general, unless you were debriefed,

11 the question of what you remembered and what you were

12 able to record was not assisted by anybody debriefing

13 you or jogging your memory by what they also saw?

14 A. No, what I put in my notebook was my words and my

15 recollection.

16 Q. Can you help us with the occasions where, now, you can

17 talk about having been debriefed, whether on those

18 occasions the debriefing exercise was able to elicit

19 from you anything that you wouldn't otherwise have put

20 in your notebook?

21 A. I don't believe it would have.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, it may be helpful if we can

1 know what are the force instructions to which the

2 disciplinary notice referred and what distribution they

3 had; in other words, would a constable have known of

4 them?

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, we will be calling the two officers who

6 conducted that investigation and I hope we have the

7 documents attached to their statements. If we haven't,

8 I'll ensure that we do.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Very well, 25 to three.

10 (1.35 pm)

11 (The short adjournment)

12 (2.40 pm)

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Witness A, please.

14 Application by MR McGRORY

15 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir, before this witness is called, can

16 I raise a brief issue, sir?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

18 MR McGRORY: Towards the conclusion of the previous

19 witness's evidence, Mr Adair asked a series of questions

20 about the conduct of the investigation in 2001 by

21 a certain female superintendent.

22 Now, I just wish to express some unease about the

23 relevance of raising those questions with a witness in

24 respect of whom that superintendent made no criticism at

25 the conclusion of that investigation.

1 Now, I accept entirely --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: May it not bear in the case of witnesses whom

3 she may have criticised?

4 MR McGRORY: Yes, we are about, actually, to hear from one

5 such witness, and in my respectful submission, it would

6 not be inappropriate for Mr Adair to raise questions of

7 the next witness, assuming that the issue of the

8 admonishment is touched upon in the course of that

9 witness's evidence. But it is my respectful

10 submission -- and I don't regard this as a major issue,

11 but I still think that it would be inappropriate for

12 each and every police witness who was interviewed in the

13 context of that investigation to be asked questions

14 about their view of the conduct of the investigation

15 when, in fact, that investigation made no criticism of

16 them whatsoever.

17 I put it no further than that, sir, other than that

18 there are very few witnesses --

19 THE CHAIRMAN: In his opening remarks, Mr Adair was asking

20 the Panel to bear in mind the tension that police

21 officers had been under in the years since 1997 because

22 of the allegations which had been made against them and

23 because of disciplinary proceedings. I think he puts

24 that forward as something we should bear in mind when we

25 weigh their testimony. Indeed, he said, bear in mind,

1 if they appear to be resentful -- that's my word --

2 about the treatment they have received, it is not

3 treatment by the Panel, but it has been treatment by the

4 police authority itself.

5 Now, isn't that something which may have a bearing

6 upon how we assess their evidence?

7 MR McGRORY: Well, respectfully no, sir, in a context where

8 the particular investigation about which Mr Adair seeks

9 to complain in itself had no bearing on what this

10 witness has to say about the events of 27 April 1997.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: But, you see, if a witness feels aggrieved --

12 and this last witness felt angry about the allegation

13 made against him -- if one doesn't know why he feels

14 aggrieved, one might regard this as an adverse factor

15 when it comes to assessing his evidence. Isn't that so?

16 MR McGRORY: Yes, but --

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, then, isn't Mr Adair entitled to ask

18 questions which explain or offer an explanation as to

19 why the witness should feel aggrieved so that if we

20 accept that, we don't say, "My word, this was a man with

21 a chip on his shoulder" and think that might reflect

22 against the weight we should give to his evidence?

23 MR McGRORY: Yes, but with respect, the evidence of the

24 sense of being aggrieved is led, is it not, by Mr Adair.

25 So he, on the one hand, seeks to lead the evidence of a

1 grievance and, on the other hand, then explain it. The

2 issue of a grievance on the part of an individual police

3 officer about the timing and the nature in which the

4 Superintendent's investigation was conducted, in my

5 respectful submission, are not relevant to the terms of

6 reference, except insofar as any finding might have

7 been --

8 THE CHAIRMAN: It was I who raised the question at the time.

9 Do you remember? I drew attention to the date of the

10 complaint.

11 MR McGRORY: Yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: And it does seem to me that that's something

13 we may have to take into account in asking why were

14 disciplinary proceedings brought and why at the time

15 they were.

16 MR McGRORY: Yes. Well, in my respectful submission, sir,

17 those questions were raised after Mr Adair had raised

18 the issue. But I put it no higher than that. You have

19 my submission and you may make your ruling.

20 There is one other issue, sir and that is that I

21 have been notified that the family can't hear these

22 proceedings and I would ask that we go no further until

23 they can. They have been excluded for this witness's

24 evidence and I would be unhappy about proceeding until

25 they can hear what's happening.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I don't think the temporary granting of

2 anonymity relates to there not being a sound

3 transmission to the room where they may be in.

4 MR ADAIR: This witness has permanent -- she was one of the

5 ones originally granted the permanent screening and

6 anonymity. So obviously the family have to hear what is

7 being said.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: I don't know whether that's a technical

9 problem or whether that's designed, whether we will need

10 time to put it right.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, those -- both the press and the

12 family -- must be in a position to hear. How long will

13 it take to you put that right?

14 IT OFFICER: About 15 minutes.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: 15 minutes? Everything needs to take

16 15 minutes. I ought to ask you, Mr Adair, about whether

17 you wish to say anything about Mr McGrory's submission.

18 MR ADAIR: No, sir. I rhetorically wonder why Mr McGrory

19 wishes to silence those police officers who have been

20 interviewed under discipline and exonerated, but wishes

21 to emphasise those police officers who have been

22 interviewed and admonished arising out of the same

23 disciplinary proceedings. I haven't come to the answer

24 of the rhetorical question myself yet.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to say anything on the issue,

1 Mr Underwood?

2 MR UNDERWOOD: No, sir.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm against you, Mr McGrory. We will retire.

4 (2.50 am)

5 (Short adjournment)

6 (3.10 pm)

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Witness A.

8 A (sworn)

9 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. My name is Underwood and I'm

11 Counsel to the Inquiry. I will ask questions to start

12 with. It is highly likely you will be asked some more

13 after that by other people.

14 You realise, I think, that we are calling you "A" in

15 this?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We have also got a number of initials now for other

18 people who are on the list and you will have a chance, I

19 think, to be given a list as we go through.

20 Can I ask you to look, please, at page [81683].

21 This is the start of a statement -- can I just ask you

22 to have a look quickly, as we scan through it quickly.

23 Is that your witness statement?

24 A. It appears to be, yes.

25 Q. Is it true?

1 A. It is true.

2 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you some additional

3 questions arising out of bits and pieces of it to

4 clarify and expand, if I may.

5 If we look at the first page, [81683], in

6 paragraph 3, you tell us that you were a constable for

7 14 years and you received training that you identify

8 there. Can I ask you to have a look, please, at

9 page [72544]? Is that your training record?

10 A. It would appear to be, yes.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Then I want to go over to

12 page [81684], paragraph 4 of your statement. You tell

13 us there who was in your section and which sergeant was

14 in charge. You don't mention somebody we are calling

15 [Constable Adams]. Can I just ask you to have a look on

16 the cipher list and see who that is?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he in there?

19 A. He was in my section. He wasn't in my crew that night.

20 I can't recall him being in my crew that night.

21 Q. All right. Still looking on that page, if we look at

22 paragraph 5, you tell us that you were detailed in

23 a response car with a constable we are calling him -- we

24 have got his name to the screen -- Constable Orr. Was

25 there anybody else in your car?

1 A. Not that I can recall.

2 Q. Can I just show you a couple of documents and see if

3 they can help you on this?

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. If you look at page [09980]. Perhaps we can all look at

6 page [09980]. There is an entry there:

7 "23:45 Paraded for duty by [the sergeant]."

8 And:

9 "Detailed OBS ..."

10 Is that observer?

11 A. It is, yes.

12 Q. "... [in] JD70."

13 It gives two names there. Does that help you?

14 A. Yes, I remember that he was detailed with me, but I

15 can't remember him being in the car.

16 Q. This is your notebook entry, I should point out.

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And of course there is the part of the entry which is at

19 23:45 on 26 April. Can you just help us about when you

20 would have made the notebook entry for that? Would you

21 have made the whole notebook entry at the end of the

22 tour of duty?

23 A. No, my briefing would have been made -- the entry would

24 have been made at my briefing.

25 Q. Right. And can you help us, was JD a Land Rover or an

1 ordinary car?

2 A. It was an armoured car.

3 Q. Then if we go back to [81684], paragraph 6, you say

4 that:

5 "Reserve constable Cornett was

6 basically screaming down the radio that she needed help.

7 She was screaming, 'They're killing each other'."

8 Do you recall that?

9 A. I do, yes.

10 Q. I should say -- this is nothing to do with examining

11 you -- I said before the break that on the tape we

12 listened to that doesn't appear. I'm being told that

13 for those who listen very carefully and are well enough

14 attuned, it is there. It hasn't reached a transcript

15 and I will be asking that officer about it when she

16 comes to give her evidence.

17 If we look at page [03838], final paragraph there.

18 This is a report a little later on, 12 June 1997, about

19 the sequence in which the cars arrived at the scene. It

20 says:

21 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery

22 Mondeo followed within seconds by the A/Ford Sierra."

23 Does that mean "armoured Ford Sierra"?

24 A. It would do, yes.

25 Q. That's your car then?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we go back then to page [81684], paragraph 7, you

3 say:

4 "I cannot remember how soon we arrived after

5 receiving the call. Nor can I remember exactly what route, once we

6 entered the town. However, I remember that the barriers

7 were definitely closed except for the barrier at

8 Edward Street, so this was the only way in. We

9 started driving through Edward Street, up

10 Market Street, turned right to go down Market Street

11 again and around the central reservation."

12 It goes on and says you drove on the other side of

13 the road. Is that your clear recollection now: you

14 drove in, went one way up the dual carriageway, turned

15 round and went back again?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In doing so, did you pass through any crowd or did you

18 see anything going on?

19 A. I know that we must have passed through the crowd, but I

20 don't recall it.

21 Q. Is this right, that you saw Wayne Lunt at quite an early

22 stage as you were coming in?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. So was your attention on him?

25 A. No.

1 Q. So is it just a memory problem, do you think, about

2 seeing a crowd or did you not notice a crowd at all?

3 A. I think it is just a memory -- I just don't recall --

4 I know that we did -- we must have drove through the

5 crowd.

6 Q. Right. Then if we go to the next page of your

7 statement, paragraph 8, you deal with seeing Wayne Lunt

8 outside of Thornton's:

9 "... did not recognise him."

10 Does that mean you didn't know him?

11 A. I didn't know him at all.

12 Q. You describe there his clothing and of course we know

13 that in due course you took him to the back of the Land

14 Rover and checked on his name and address. Did you deal

15 with anybody else in a similar way; in other words, did

16 you put anybody else into the back of the Land Rover?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you see any other officer put anybody in the back of

19 the Land Rover?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you see anybody else wearing clothing that you

22 describe there that was on him?

23 A. In what way, clothing?

24 Q. Did you see anybody else wearing a white sweatshirt with

25 grey stripes, a Rangers scarf --

1 A. I didn't see anybody else wearing the scarf around their

2 face, no.

3 Q. What about the rest of the white outfit: white jeans,

4 white sweatshirt, baseball cap?

5 A. I honestly can't remember.

6 Q. Right.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember how his scarf was worn?

8 A. When I initially saw him?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

10 A. It was obscuring his nose and mouth.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: He told us it was up to his mouth. Are you

12 clear that it was higher than that?

13 A. Very clear.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: What sort of an evening was it, or a night

15 was it, in terms of temperature?

16 A. It was a very calm night, it wasn't raining, it was

17 a bright night. I can't remember how cold it was.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

19 MR UNDERWOOD: So you have told us in the next paragraph of

20 your statement that you stopped the car and ran after

21 him and he ran off up towards the church and you

22 couldn't catch him.

23 Compared with that incident, can you tell us when

24 you first noticed that there was a disturbance going on?

25 A. When I noticed Lunt running and the bottle down by his

1 side. I noticed that he was running towards a crowd in

2 the town centre and I just assumed that he was going to

3 this crowd and he was going to be throwing that bottle.

4 Q. And you told us in the statement that he had his hand

5 down by his side and he was holding the bottle by its

6 neck. Are you clear about that?

7 A. He was holding the bottle upside down.

8 Q. You are clear about that, are you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Looking at your paragraph 10, you tell us

11 there that you saw a Land Rover, and further on in the

12 paragraph -- we don't need to go to it -- you tell us

13 that you saw two bodies and a crowd of youths. Can

14 I ask you now to have a look at a map and for you to

15 mark on the map for us? If we go to our standard map

16 and perhaps we could zoom in on the centre. Perhaps

17 zoom in a little more, if we can.

18 Does that give you enough of the scene to be able to

19 mark where the Land Rover was and where the men were on

20 the ground were?

21 A. Could you zoom out slightly for me, please?

22 Q. Of course. Do you see Thomas Street is the one going

23 down from the junction and Woodhouse Street the one

24 going up. Is that enough of a scene for you?

25 A. It would be, yes.

1 Q. If we do a screen shot of that, we can give you control

2 and perhaps you could mark first of all where the Land

3 Rover was.

4 A. Very roughly. Sorry, I believe -- do you want me to try

5 that again?

6 Q. Yes, please.

7 A. Sorry.

8 Q. That's all right. It takes some getting used to.

9 Okay. And the men on the ground? So could we mark

10 those, starting from the top, 1, 2, 3? Keep that as

11 a record of that evidence. Thank you.

12 Now, we know that there came a point after you had

13 got Wayne Lunt into the back of the Land Rover, that you

14 radioed and asked for his address to be confirmed. Did

15 you make any other radio calls?

16 A. Not that I can recall.

17 Q. If we can go back to your witness statement then, on to

18 [81686], paragraph 12, you say:

19 "The crowd were right on top of the bodies and there

20 were about 40 people in the crowd, just a single crowd

21 of people, and they were close to the bodies but how

22 close I could not tell you. They were

23 trying to get to the bodies. The police

24 had formed a line between the bodies and the crowd and

25 we were just trying to push the people back..."

1 You were part of the line, were you?

2 A. I was, yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us about the atmosphere and what the crowd

4 was saying and doing?

5 A. I can't recall what they were saying, but I know that

6 they were pushing the police line and we were the only

7 defence between them and the bodies lying on the ground.

8 Q. By pushing, do you mean they were just pushing against

9 you?

10 A. No, they would have been aggressive in their manner.

11 Q. And trying to get through or just trying to push you

12 back? If you can't help, you can't help.

13 A. I don't know, I don't know.

14 Q. Then if we go over to the next page, at the bottom of

15 the page -- paragraph 14, rather -- you tell us in the

16 last three sentences or so, of this:

17 "I physically put Lunt into the back of the Land

18 Rover and climbed in behind him. I did this because I

19 wanted to get his name and address. I cannot remember

20 whether I closed the door, but I do not think I would

21 have left it open; normally, I would always shut and

22 lock it."

23 This was not the first time, then, that you had had

24 occasion to put a suspect into the back of a vehicle to

25 check his identity; is that right?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And when you did that, in the ordinary course, would you

3 have made a note of who he was?

4 A. Not including this night, is that ...?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, I would have, yes.

7 Q. You were in the Land Rover with him for five minutes or

8 so, I think, and when he was in the Land Rover he wasn't

9 causing any trouble, was he?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't make a note of who he

12 was while you were there?

13 A. I did make a note of Lunt's details while I was there.

14 Q. You did, did you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. In your notebook?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Right. Then looking down at paragraph 16, over the

19 page, sorry, in the middle of 16 you tell us:

20 "I assume that Lunt gave me the correct details

21 because otherwise I would have noted it in my statements.

22 It was my thinking that I was going to prosecute him for

23 disorderly behaviour and assault on a police officer."

24 We know that you decided it wasn't prudent to detain

25 him because it would have taken officers off the ground

1 at a busy time. We know he was on bail at the time of

2 this for an alleged offence of assault on the police.

3 If you had been told that when you checked his details,

4 would that have made a difference?

5 A. I still don't think we would have had the manpower to

6 arrest him and take him off the street.

7 Q. Is that because there was such a lot going on?

8 A. It is, because it was a very large crowd and a small

9 number of police.

10 Q. Then at paragraph 17, in the middle of the paragraph,

11 you say:

12 "I was not concerned that Lunt would run straight

13 back into the crowd because he had toned down his

14 attitude and his actions. He was so compliant by then

15 and was not the same person without his mates. Also, if

16 he had run back into the crowd, we probably would have

17 dealt with it, but he did not go back into the crowd."

18 I just want to check against that page [10454],

19 please. This is part of a disciplinary interview of you

20 on 20 November 2001. And about six lines down -- in

21 fact, if we highlight the top half of this about six

22 lines down:

23 "Now, by releasing him then, are you say that threat

24 from Wayne Lunt had gone away?

25 "Answer: Not necessarily, no.

1 "Question: Right, so you were happy enough to

2 release him?

3 "Answer: It wasn't that I was happy enough to

4 release him, no, but if I wanted to detain him any

5 longer, I was going to have to take him to a police

6 station which was going to take me and it was going to

7 take at least two other constables off the ground

8 because the way he was fighting. The way in which

9 I first detained him, the crowd were trying to pull him

10 off me. It was going to take at least three people off

11 the ground and we couldn't afford it.

12 "Question: Okay, so the decision to release

13 Wayne Lunt was purely because of the public order

14 situation pertaining at the time?

15 "Answer: Absolutely, absolutely. The crowd were

16 still there. They were still trying to get at the two

17 bodies lying on the ground."

18 That was the situation, was it?

19 A. It was very much the situation.

20 Q. So both at the time you took him into the Land Rover,

21 when people were trying to pull him back from you, and

22 at the time you let him out, when people were trying to

23 get at the two bodies on the ground, this crowd was

24 still, if I can put this word in your mouth, rioting;

25 would that be fair?

100

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your view, was this an affray?

3 A. No.

4 Q. It wasn't an affray because?

5 A. It was a riot situation.

6 Q. More than affray?

7 A. Hm-mm.

8 Q. And I want to take you to paragraph 18 of your

9 statement, please, which I think was on the page we just

10 had. This is the reference to the man approaching you

11 and him saying:

12 "What the fuck did you let him go for? He was one

13 of the ones that did it."

14 The first thing I want to ask you about this is are

15 you certain that this man was accompanied by another

16 man?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see a woman in the area at the time, can you

19 recall?

20 A. I can't recall, no.

21 Q. Help us out, if you would, about what else was going on

22 in your immediate area when this was happening.

23 Was there fighting around you?

24 A. The fighting was on the other side, across the central

25 reservation, if you like.

101

1 Q. So when you let --

2 A. We were quite close to the central reservation, the Land

3 Rover, and I let Lunt out of the Land Rover and was

4 immediately approached or spoken to by that male person.

5 Q. And was this man who asked you, "What the fuck did you

6 let him go for?" the only person who swore at you?

7 A. He was standing with another man.

8 Q. That night and either immediately around this time or

9 otherwise, were you the subject of any abuse or

10 swearing?

11 A. By an individual person?

12 Q. By anybody.

13 A. No, just that one.

14 Q. So this would have stood out, then?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell us why you didn't put it in your notes?

17 A. It was a hectic night. I regret not putting him in my

18 notebook and there was nothing sinister in the fact that

19 it wasn't put in my notebook. I let the man go and I

20 had to get back to my colleagues. I gave them, the two

21 men, my details and asked them to come to my station the

22 following day to make a statement.

23 Q. To go back, at this stage is it your evidence that

24 people were still trying to get at the two men on the

25 ground?

102

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the ratio, as it were, of police to rioters,

3 roughly?

4 A. Maybe nine/ten of us and about 40/50 of them.

5 Q. You could have asked this person his name and written it

6 in your notebook in the same way that you had written

7 Lunt's name in your notebook. That's correct, is it?

8 A. That is correct, yes.

9 Q. You are saying it is pressure of time, there were other

10 priorities. Is that fair?

11 A. It is, yes.

12 Q. You then, I think -- and I'm moving ahead -- you went

13 off to do a road traffic accident after this event?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And then came back to the station -- I know that you

16 later on were involved in the scene log; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we know that you closed off the scene log, I think,

19 at 13 minutes past eight. Did you go back to the

20 station after that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that when you first made up your notes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you assisted at all in making up your notes?

25 A. No.

103

1 Q. Let me get this quite clear: did you talk to any of the

2 other officers, while you were making up your notes,

3 about recollections?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did anybody help you by debriefing you so as to get

6 pieces of memory out of you in order to help your notes?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you experienced other occasions where you have been

9 debriefed and your notes and statements have benefited,

10 or have, as a result, been the subject of that

11 debriefing?

12 A. I have been debriefed in the past, yes, other incidents.

13 And as a result of that, you know, you were then sent to

14 do your statements.

15 Q. On those occasions where you were being debriefed, did

16 you find it of benefit? In other words, were you able

17 to put more in the statement than you would otherwise

18 have recalled?

19 A. I can't really say, I'm sorry.

20 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened then after you had let Lunt

21 out of the Land Rover and the situation which was

22 obtaining meant people were still trying to get at the

23 two people on the ground. What did you do?

24 A. I remember seeing the ambulance there and crews aiding

25 the two men on the ground. The crowd were forcibly

104

1 pushed back behind the barrier.

2 Q. By police, including you --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- or by other police? Right.

5 A. At that stage, there was an MSU in presence then and

6 when the crowd was pushed back behind the barrier I was

7 sent to the DIC RTA.

8 Q. Can you look at the final sentence of paragraph 19 on

9 the next page, [81689]? Let's take the last two

10 sentences:

11 "It was very much the case that everybody knew where

12 to go, and compared to some other crowds I faced this

13 one was manageable at this stage. Earlier the police

14 were in danger of being overwhelmed."

15 When you say:

16 "Earlier the police were in danger of being

17 overwhelmed."

18 Are you describing the first occasion when you were

19 involved in a line before seeing Lunt?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you say "overwhelmed", do you mean there that the

22 crowd was liable to break through the line, or what else

23 do you mean?

24 A. They could have broken through the line, yes.

25 Q. Okay. If we go to paragraph 20, you talk about the

105

1 sergeant and some other officers there. What I want to

2 ask you about is a reserve constable we are calling

3 [Robert Atkinson]. Do you know who I mean?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see him at the scene?

6 A. I don't recall seeing him there.

7 Q. Do you know who the Land Rover crew were?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall seeing any of those at the scene when you

10 arrived?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. They were out and about, were they --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- or were they still in the car?

15 A. They were out.

16 Q. Do you recall what they were doing?

17 A. They were in the crowd.

18 Q. Were they in the crowd being effective, or not?

19 A. I would say no, there was only four of them.

20 Q. Can you say that they should have been doing anything

21 else?

22 A. They were doing their best.

23 Q. Okay. In paragraph 22 you say in the final sentence

24 that a statement that you refer to there:

25 "... also reminds [you] that [you] recognised

106

1 Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes and another in the crowd."

2 When you made your notebook entry and when you made

3 your statement on 27 April, did you record the names of

4 everybody that you recognised?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if we go to the next paragraph, 23, you deal with

7 Stacey Bridgett there.

8 A. Hm-mm.

9 Q. And you describe him, and then halfway down you say he

10 had blood coming from his nose and was in the crowd

11 pushing forward. You say you didn't hear him saying

12 anything to anyone, nor exactly where he was in the

13 crowd. We know his blood got on to Robert Hamill's

14 jeans. From what you saw him doing, do you think that

15 happened while you were watching him; in other words,

16 was he close enough when you saw him for that to have

17 happened?

18 A. I don't believe so, no.

19 Q. And then in paragraph 24 you talk about Dean Forbes and

20 how, in essence, inseparable Stacey Bridgett and he

21 were. And going over the page on that paragraph, you

22 say, top line:

23 "I have known them so long that I knew their manner

24 was aggressive."

25 Are you clear about that?

107

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Their evidence has been, "Nothing to do with me. I

3 wasn't there. I was watching it from a safe distance.

4 I was a calm spectator who was not involved." What do

5 you say to that?

6 A. I disagree.

7 Q. If we go to paragraph 34 -- sorry, my page numbers are

8 out, so I'm not going to be able to help on which page

9 it is. Thank you. You tell us there you have no memory

10 of who taped the area although the serious crime log and

11 your notebook entry suggest it was you. That's the

12 position, is it, still?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we look at the serious crime log at [10995], in the

15 middle section, details of persons who enter the

16 designated scene area, the first person is you and its

17 time of arrival, 07:27; departure is 08:13. You don't

18 record anybody else as arriving or entering the scene.

19 So would you have recorded that accurately at the time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us your understanding in 1997 of who was

22 responsible for scene preservation after a public order

23 incident? If you can't recall, you can't recall. All

24 right.

25 We have identified your record of training and on it

108

1 there is no training for scene preservation. Is that

2 because you didn't have any?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The response car that you were in, did that have any

5 crime scene tape? Can you help?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Can you help with whether it was a normal situation for

8 support vehicles to have crime scene tape?

9 A. I'd say sometimes you would have got tape in some of the

10 cars, but not all of the time.

11 Q. All right. We know that somebody used Allister Hanvey's

12 ATM card to take money out of an ATM in the middle of

13 Portadown at 8.46. Were you still there, by any chance?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I'm not suggesting you took the money out.

16 A. Oh, right.

17 Q. I was just wondering whether you had seen. If we go

18 back to your statement at paragraph 35 on the next page,

19 you tell us:

20 "No message had come back to me about the

21 seriousness of Robert Hamill's injuries and the

22 requirement to tape the scene didn't suggest to me that

23 the incident had become more serious."

24 We know from some officers who actually went over

25 and looked at and listened to Mr Hamill while he was on

109

1 the ground, that he had breathing difficulties. Was

2 there any discussion at all between officers at the

3 scene about what was going on and what had happened to

4 the men on the ground, in particular about the

5 seriousness of the injury?

6 A. No, not that I recall.

7 Q. Okay. No attempt by a sergeant or inspector there to

8 gather people round and ask what had happened or --

9 A. No.

10 Q. -- what the seriousness was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And if we look at paragraph 37 over the page, you say

13 you didn't attend any briefings or speak to the sergeant

14 or a detective constable about it or the inspector.

15 Somebody presumably told you to make a statement, did

16 they, or did you do that off your own bat?

17 A. I think it was whenever we went back to the station

18 after being relieved at the scene, that was what

19 everybody was doing, making statements.

20 Q. Do you recall whether the sergeant or the inspector were

21 still at the station by the time you got back to do

22 that?

23 A. Not as far as I'm aware, no.

24 Q. Okay. So when did you realise that this was a serious

25 assault?

110

1 A. I couldn't obviously say -- honestly say. Possibly the

2 next night.

3 Q. But not until after you had made your statement. Would

4 that be fair?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And then if we look at page [48734], this is

7 a message form, and if we pick up the middle section,

8 this is information:

9 "Rough details of man who approached me at junction

10 the Woodhouse Street and Church Street", and this is the

11 record that you made in May.

12 If we go back to the main text of this, you see the

13 date of it: 19 May 1997. Can you just expand on how it

14 came about that you came to complete that message form?

15 A. I think I was spoken to by the DS, Portadown CID, and he

16 said that he had had information that this man had

17 approached a policewoman and it was then that I recalled

18 what had happened that night.

19 Q. Then if we go to the last page of your statement,

20 perhaps a little before, in paragraph 40, the final four

21 lines or so you say:

22 "My response is that Lunt WAS arrested by CID. I

23 don't know if it would have made any difference to the

24 murder investigation had I identified Lunt earlier or

25 whether it may have led to an earlier arrest."

111

1 Can I just ask you what the status of your detention

2 of him was? He obviously didn't come quietly to the

3 back of the Land Rover. What power were you exercising

4 in order to get him into and keep him in the Land Rover?

5 Was he in fact under arrest?

6 A. He was not, no. I don't know what the power would have

7 been.

8 Q. All right. Then if we go to your paragraph 41, you talk

9 about the advice you had about the disciplinary

10 procedure. And then in the second sentence of that you

11 tell us about a condition you have got as a result of

12 this and other incidents. And part of this condition

13 has been caused by the way you were treated afterwards.

14 Are you saying there that part of your condition

15 results from what you saw and what happened to you on

16 the night of 27 April?

17 A. That would be part of my condition, yes.

18 Q. Is that because it was such a riotous situation, or

19 what?

20 A. It was a very scary situation to be in, yes.

21 Q. Can you help us with what in particular was scary

22 about it?

23 A. The fact that we were very close to being overrun by

24 a crowd of rioters.

25 Q. If you had had the opportunity to arrest Dean Forbes and

112

1 Stacey Bridgett, for example, for affray, would you have

2 felt that was justified?

3 A. I didn't actually see them doing anything, you know.

4 They were in the crowd, you could have arrested the

5 whole crowd, you know, but I didn't see them doing an

6 individual --

7 Q. Did you see any individual doing anything worse than

8 them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So this very scary riotous situation in which you were

11 nearly overwhelmed involved them as much as anybody

12 else; is that fair?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I want to ask you some questions that I'm asking all

15 officers at the scene. Did you do, or fail to do,

16 anything on the night because you had a particular view

17 about Catholics?

18 A. Absolutely not.

19 Q. We have heard from a witness that a number of people

20 were seen by him to be kicking Robert Hamill and that he

21 attempted to pull those people off and that police

22 officers helped him and that they succeeded in pulling

23 people off. Did you see any of that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And a final point: did you have any other experience of

113

1 seeing or being in a Land Rover in the centre of

2 Portadown on public order duties?

3 A. Have I seen?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We have a witness who said that he, on more than one

7 occasion, had seen fighting going on in the middle of

8 Portadown and police sitting in a Land Rover and not

9 getting out. I think the inference might fairly be

10 because it was light policing and these fights didn't

11 generally involve much injury.

12 Do you have any experience of either being in a Land

13 Rover or seeing people in a Land Rover not getting out

14 whilst such fighting was going on?

15 A. Never.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: As I said, other people may have some

17 questions, but those are mine. Thank you.

18 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

19 MR McGRORY: I have some questions, sir.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

21 Questions by MR McGRORY

22 MR McGRORY: Constable A, I'm going to ask you some

23 questions on behalf of the family of Robert Hamill.

24 I want just to ask you about the process you entered

25 into in seeking to identify Wayne Lunt when you had him

114

1 in the Land Rover. At page [06592], we have some of the

2 transcript that we heard earlier of the exchange that

3 you had with another police constable when you were

4 seeking to ascertain Mr Lunt's identity. It is Constable Godley.

5 Now, the top half of the page, at 02:01.55, this is

6 where you are exchanging with him about the possible

7 residence of Mr Lunt:

8 "They used to live on [such and such a place], but

9 I am under the impression that they have moved out the

10 [something] somewhere."

11 Now, there is a Christian name there. I'm not going

12 to mention that Christian name, but I'm suggesting to

13 you that it's Constable Adams. If you would please check your list

14 of ciphers?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is Constable Adams the policeman to whom the gentleman is referring

17 when he mentions that Christian name, and that he would

18 answer to R/Con Cornett that night?

19 A. I assume so, yes.

20 Q. Said:

21 "He might be able to help you on that, over."

22 And then you reply:

23 "Roger, that's okay. He has cleared it with me."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

115

1 Q. Now, are you absolutely sure that you spoke to Constable

2 Adams? Do you have a recollection of it?

3 A. I don't, I am afraid.

4 Q. No. You see, what I suggest to you is that when you

5 write up your notebook later, you don't in fact record

6 that you spoke to Constable Adams. Do you accept that

7 without going through the notebook?

8 A. I would accept that, yes.

9 Q. Yes. And, indeed, in the material that we have got so

10 far from Constable Adams, he doesn't seem to recount that you asked

11 him to confirm Mr Lunt's identity. Is it possible that

12 you let Mr Lunt out of the Land Rover without in fact

13 confirming precisely who he was?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You see, because the way you went about this was to ask

16 if he was on the electoral register?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would it not have been easier to ascertain his date of

19 birth from Mr Lunt?

20 A. I'm not sure how that would have helped me, sorry.

21 Q. Would it not be a common way for police officers to

22 ascertain someone's identity; that is, to ask them their

23 date of birth?

24 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean, as a first question?

25 MR McGRORY: As a first question -- or even a second

116

1 question. Name and date of birth, obviously. After you

2 have ascertained the name?

3 A. Yes. I still don't know how that would have helped me,

4 sorry.

5 Q. Well, what I'm suggesting to you is that when you find

6 out somebody's name and you want to know whether or not

7 this is somebody in relation to whom the police might

8 have an interest, do you understand me?

9 A. I wasn't radioing to see if the police had an interest

10 in Mr Lunt. I was radioing to ascertain his address for

11 any follow-up proceedings that may occur, and to confirm

12 his address.

13 Q. Right. So the purpose of you contacting base camp, so

14 to speak, wasn't to see whether or not this was someone

15 who ought to be let go or not at this point?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. You see, what I'm suggesting to you here is that in fact

18 it would appear from the transcript, Constable A, that

19 there is no conclusion in terms of your contact with the

20 gentleman on the other side of the radio, as to who this

21 man was precisely and what his address was. Certainly

22 that exchange -- it doesn't appear to be concluded. Do

23 you agree with that?

24 A. I would agree with that, yes.

25 Q. And the problem I have and that I'm putting to you is

117

1 that there is no other evidence, other than --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, Mr McGrory that's not the way

3 I read that page we have got on now. The radio

4 controller says he is under the impression that Lunt's

5 family have moved out, and I think he says where. And

6 then the witness says -- and he says:

7 "You may be able to get help from B70."

8 And then you say:

9 "Yes, that's okay" -- or the witness says:

10 "That's okay, he has cleared it with me."

11 Doesn't that sound as though she has received some

12 confirmation, if that makes any sense?

13 MR McGRORY: Yes, but the difficulty that I have and that

14 I'm putting to this witness, sir, is that we can't

15 address this fully until we speak to the next witness.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not this witness's problem. You are

17 suggesting that this page shows that she hadn't got

18 information about where Lunt lived. I'm simply saying

19 the way I read it, it looks as though she has had some

20 confirmation of the suggestion made by the controller.

21 MR McGRORY: Well, certainly, I accept that, sir. Certainly

22 you haven't noted anywhere, constable, just in what

23 respect it was cleared with you, have you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In the sense that the other policeman, Constable Adams,

118

1 you have taken no record as to which of those two

2 addresses he felt was the correct one?

3 A. No, I have made no record of it, no.

4 Q. So in terms of the extent to which it was cleared up, it

5 was only that it might be either one of those addresses.

6 Do you accept that?

7 A. I'm assuming that -- I'm assuming that the address that

8 I have been given was the correct one.

9 Q. Given by Constable Adams?

10 A. Given by Lunt to me, was the correct one.

11 Q. Is it not the case, witness A, that frequently police in

12 situations like this have another purpose for

13 ascertaining someone's identity and that's not just for

14 future reference in terms of future proceedings, but to

15 see whether or not this is someone who perhaps is

16 someone that should be held on to; do you understand me?

17 A. Say that if a constable or member of the police have had

18 dealings with that person, and maybe know the history of

19 that person, that they could radio and check to confirm

20 it, but I certainly had no dealings with Lunt before. I

21 had never met him before.

22 Q. You see, you weren't appraised in this brief exchange

23 that Lunt in fact might have been on bail for another

24 offence?

25 A. That's the first I have heard of it, today.

119

1 Q. Would that have altered your course had you been told he

2 is on bail for riotous behaviour or something? Would

3 you have held on to him?

4 A. I don't know whether I would have or not. I probably

5 would have asked for help on that, you know, from my

6 inspector or sergeant.

7 Q. Yes. If I could move on, Constable A, to the issue of

8 the man, or two men, coming over to you and saying:

9 "Look" -- just after you have let him go:

10 "That's one of the ones that did it."

11 You didn't note that at the time. In fact, when you

12 went back even to the police station -- your notebook is

13 on page [09982], you see 01:57 there -- yes, thank you.

14 This is your recording of basically what had happened,

15 and you say at the end of that passage that you now know

16 this male to be Wayne Lunt and there you do give his

17 date of birth?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you get his date of birth when you were making

20 up the note?

21 A. I have obviously asked Lunt for his date of birth.

22 Q. You have asked Lunt for his date of birth?

23 A. Hm-mm.

24 Q. Where do you make this note, because you say in your --

25 to refer to you now, I just want to let you know that

120

1 you say in your statement at [81694] at the beginning of

2 paragraph 36:

3 "I returned to the station and completed my notebook

4 entries..."

5 Can you help us just as to how much of the notebook

6 was completed back at the station and how much was done

7 perhaps on the scene?

8 A. It would have been very little, if any, done at the

9 scene.

10 Q. You see, it is just that the notebook entry -- sorry, if

11 I can return to that -- says:

12 "I now know this male to be Wayne Lunt, 15/6 ..."

13 It gives a date of birth?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That would suggest, I'm putting to you, a further

16 enquiry was made, perhaps not of Lunt himself?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Back at the station; no?

19 A. No, it is just terminology. It is how I would say

20 90 per cent of police make their statements:

21 "I now know this male, this person to be ..."

22 Q. You see, what I'm trying to get to the bottom of,

23 constable, is how this exchange could have taken place

24 with these individuals about you having just released

25 Mr Lunt and that not being recorded in your notebook.

121

1 So are you telling us that you must have made this

2 entry reasonably soon after ascertaining his date of

3 birth?

4 A. No.

5 Q. No.

6 A. I would have got the details from the coms man.

7 Q. Sorry, the who?

8 A. Sorry, the communications. I would have gone in, "Get

9 me those details I radioed to you" and I would have made

10 my note with that.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you saying you radioed Lunt's date of

12 birth to the communications --

13 A. I would have done, yes.

14 MR McGRORY: You see, one of the reasons why I'm asking

15 these questions about the date of birth is that we don't

16 appear to have an entry in the communications record of

17 the date of birth being mentioned.

18 A. I can't --

19 Q. Can you explain that?

20 A. No, I can't, sorry.

21 Q. But in any event, if you are telling us that you got the

22 date of birth from Mr Lunt himself --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- then you must have made this entry within

25 a reasonable period of time after getting that

122

1 information from him. Minutes?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So are you saying that you retained that information in

6 your head?

7 A. That information would have been held with the

8 communications officer.

9 Q. By the communications officer?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, can you assist us at all as to when you made that

12 entry in your notebook?

13 A. I would assume at the end of duty.

14 Q. Can you assist us as to when that was? You didn't

15 finish duty until after you left the police station,

16 I take it?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Would it have been at that point?

19 A. It would have been at that point. I wouldn't have left

20 the station without making up my notebook.

21 Q. So are you saying that the most likely time for making

22 this entry was much later in the morning, before you

23 left the police station?

24 A. It would have been, yes.

25 Q. But then you must have made an enquiry with the

123

1 communications people if you say that you would have

2 told them his date of birth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you understand me?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You must have made a further enquiry when you were

7 writing up your notebook, to put that in?

8 A. I radioed communications with the details and the

9 details come back that the address was correct that I

10 had been given. When I returned to the station, I would

11 have got the details back off the communications officer

12 to make up my notebook.

13 Q. Well, I just have to remind you, Constable A, that that

14 is not recorded. So I am suggesting to you that some

15 time back at the police station you had some further

16 conversation with somebody about Lunt's identity during

17 which exchange the date of birth was raised?

18 A. It never happened, no.

19 Q. And what I'm suggesting to you is puzzling about this is

20 that at no point when making your notebook entry, do you

21 mention the fact that you were approached about this

22 man?

23 A. That's correct, I wasn't. I didn't make an entry.

24 Q. And is your explanation that you just forgot about it?

25 A. Forgot completely about it. It is an honest answer.

124

1 There is nothing sinister about it.

2 Q. Let me make this clear, Constable A: I'm not suggesting

3 that there is anything sinister about your failure to

4 note this. Let me make that very clear. I'm not

5 suggesting that you thought in any way, "I'll compromise

6 this because the victim is a Catholic" or anything. I'm

7 just trying to get to the bottom of the seriousness of

8 the omission.

9 I want to come on to that because you say in your

10 statement that he was eventually arrested by CID and you

11 don't know what impact your failure to make that

12 information available on the night had on the

13 investigation. But let me ask you some questions about

14 your experience as a police officer. How long had you

15 been on the force at this point?

16 A. Seven years.

17 Q. Seven years. So you would have been aware as a police

18 officer of some seven years' experience that every

19 little piece of information in an investigation after

20 a serious incident could be of relevance. Do you accept

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that those who were charged with the investigation

24 end of it could potentially have been compromised in

25 their investigation by not having been given

125

1 a significant piece of information?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that in fact potentially you had a suspect in a very

4 serious assault in the Land Rover?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In respect of whom you had been told by an observer that

7 he had been guilty of the serious assault. Do you

8 accept that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So what you have omitted to detail is in fact a very,

11 very valuable piece of evidence in the investigation?

12 A. I agree, yes.

13 Q. Do you accept that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I can't ask you to do any more, Constable A.

16 Now, in terms of what you were asked about the

17 events when you went back to the police station, people

18 have mentioned to you about debriefings and so forth.

19 In your seven years of experience as a police officer,

20 to what extent had you ever been debriefed before? Do

21 you know what I mean by a debriefing?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In other words, that somebody sits down with you and

24 asks you for a detailed account of what had happened;

25 a supervisor or somebody of that kind?

126

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So how many times had you been debriefed before?

3 A. Very few.

4 Q. But you had been the subject of debriefings before?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And on this evening in question, you would know who your

7 supervisors were. There was a sergeant who was

8 present --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- that night and, indeed, an inspector?

11 A. Hm-mm, yes.

12 Q. Did either of those gentlemen approach you to ask you

13 some questions as to what might have happened?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And the important detail about what you had been told

16 that Mr Lunt had done, had somebody asked you to recount

17 the events, do you think you would have been likely to

18 have remembered that information at that time?

19 A. Possibly, yes.

20 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.

21 A. Thank you.

22 Questions by MS DINSMORE

23 MS DINSMORE: Constable, I appear on behalf of Robert Atkinson. Now, do

24 you need a moment just to brace yourself?

25 Do you recall earlier on this afternoon you said you

127

1 didn't recall seeing Robert Atkinson at the scene?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that still the position?

4 A. It would be, yes.

5 Q. I wonder, could we have up page [81686], please? Do you

6 know who Robert Atkinson is?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you would know Robert Atkinson, wouldn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, if we could call up and if we could just go to

11 paragraph 10, the top paragraph. And if we look at

12 that, if we just go about seven lines down, it reads:

13 "There were about four or five officers I saw at that

14 stage. I recognised Reserve Constable P40 and five

15 other police constables, of which one was Robert Atkinson."

16 What you said is you recalled them at the scene, but

17 you couldn't recall what any of them were doing.

18 Now, is your position today that either that's

19 wrong -- that's your statement to the Inquiry -- or when

20 you think about it, in fact you did see Robert Atkinson was present

21 and you were aware of his presence?

22 A. I just can't recall him.

23 Q. Can you recall any of those persons?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you recall them all except Robert Atkinson? Is there any of the

128

1 others you can't recall?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, can you tell us who the others are you can't

4 recall? If you just want to go through each of them.

5 P40, can recall P40?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You definitely can't recall P40?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know who P40 is?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you are quite satisfied that you have no recall of

12 him whatsoever?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. And what about the next officer, which is R/Con Cornett?

15 Can you recall R/Con Cornett being at the scene?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You don't? So that's three of the officers who were in

18 the original land crew that you don't recall seeing at

19 all. And what about Reserve Constable Warnock? Can you recall him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You can recall him? And what about Reserve Constable Silcock,

22 can you recall Reserve Constable Silcock?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you recall -- I understood that P40 and the

25 fifth policeman -- it may be my error; maybe,

129

1 Mr Underwood, you could assist us -- is one and the

2 same?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right, I apologise for that. Then, do you recall

5 Constable Neill?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You do recall Constable Neill. So of those, then, the only

8 ones that you can recall are Constable Neill and the other

9 two that you named were not part of the Land Rover crew?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, is there any reason at all why you think you can

12 recall, for example, Constable Neill?

13 A. I can recall Constable Neill because he assisted me with placing

14 Lunt into the rear of the Land Rover.

15 Q. Now, I think there is no dispute that Robert Atkinson was in fact

16 present. Now, it was a very hectic night; isn't that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In fact, you have said it was a scary situation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you felt almost nearly overwhelmed, I think was the

22 word that you used?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you recall in your statement that you said people

25 had tried to pull this individual from you?

130

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Yes? And we find a reference to that at [81687], but

3 that's not in dispute.

4 So you find yourself in this hectic, difficult,

5 overwhelming situation, and there are persons about you

6 who are endeavouring to pull this individual from you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yes. And I have to suggest to you, insofar as he can

9 recollect, Robert Atkinson is of the view that he was one of the

10 persons who assisted you.

11 Now, would you have any reason to doubt that,

12 bearing in mind what you have said about there being

13 a number of persons endeavouring to pull someone from

14 you?

15 A. No, no reason to doubt it at all.

16 Q. You have no reason to doubt that recollection?

17 A. No.

18 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

20 MR McCOMB: Just a very few questions.

21 Questions by MR McCOMB

22 MR McCOMB: I represent, amongst others, Lunt and Bridgett

23 and others who were charged with the murder.

24 Can I just take you back as best as you can recall,

25 please, you have told us that you received a message at

131

1 01:47 on the 27th. Is that right?

2 A. Correct, yes.

3 Q. Take your time. If there is something you want to just

4 go back and check, please feel free to do so.

5 Where were you at 01:47?

6 A. When I got the call?

7 Q. When you received the call, yes, to go to the centre of

8 Portadown?

9 A. I think we were out quite a distance away from the town

10 centre.

11 Q. Were you on another duty at that stage or were you

12 coming back from finishing duty?

13 A. No, we were just covering the whole of the area.

14 Q. I see. And, again, any time any characters emerge, of

15 course you must remember not to mention their names.

16 So did you make it as quickly as you could to the

17 centre? Did you realise that there was considerable

18 urgency?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that back-up was needed as a matter of immediate

21 urgency?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you give any estimate as to how long it might have

24 taken you to get from where you were to the centre of

25 town?

132

1 A. I can't, I am afraid, sorry.

2 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea even of how far away you

3 were when you got the message? You say you were some

4 distance away. Would you be able to help us at all

5 about that?

6 A. I'm sorry, no.

7 Q. Might we assume it would be some minutes, but not very

8 many minutes, obviously?

9 A. I can only go by the timings in which we arrived.

10 Q. When you arrived anyway, did you come up through the

11 town -- is that right? -- or did you come from the

12 direction of St Mark's church towards the town?

13 A. We came in via Edward Street.

14 Q. There was a crowd there, but you weren't particularly

15 aware of what was going on at that stage; would that be

16 correct?

17 A. I can't recall, I'm sorry.

18 Q. But at some point as you were driving -- I think you

19 describe how you drove through the crowd, or past the

20 crowd -- you saw Mr Lunt, although you didn't know him

21 at the time, I understand?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But you saw him and something drew your attention and

24 you chased him, but he got away?

25 A. Yes.

133

1 Q. And then did you turn the car round and then come back

2 into the town nearer the centre of town?

3 A. It is a one-way system.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. So we were already on the other side of the road

6 whenever I saw Lunt, and we drove straight down there

7 towards the crowd in the Land Rover.

8 Q. I take it that when you ran after him, were you

9 accompanied by anybody else, or were you --

10 A. No.

11 Q. -- by yourself?

12 A. By myself.

13 Q. So that's a short time, but you got back into the car

14 again; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, it appears that then you became involved -- and we

17 will come to this in a second or two -- with what was

18 happening on the ground, as it were, with the two

19 injured parties --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- and so on. I'll come back to that. But for

22 a period, then, you were involved in that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then you became aware of Mr Lunt again approaching

25 the crowd?

134

1 A. He was in the crowd.

2 Q. But you saw him as if he was running towards the crowd?

3 A. Initially.

4 Q. That's what initially drew your attention?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You are quite right. You then got hold of him this time

7 and took him over to the Land Rover?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you put him into the Land Rover?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, from the records we have seen today, from the log,

12 that would appear to be at about 01:55. He was already

13 in the Land Rover, brought in by yourself. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at that stage you were radioing for information

17 about him. And in a nutshell, did he give you his

18 correct name and address?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. What I suggest to you, of course, is that when one looks

21 at the times, we are talking really about really

22 a matter of a few minutes at the very most from the time

23 that you arrived at the scene to this stage, and I'm

24 sure would you accept that?

25 A. Yes.

135

1 Q. Do you recall seeing one or two, or more, ladies beside

2 the bodies who were lying on the ground?

3 A. I recall seeing one.

4 Q. Yes. And was she beside whom we may now know to be

5 Mr Hamill; is that correct?

6 A. I don't know who the men were at that stage. She was

7 kneeling beside one of the bodies.

8 Q. Yes. And might there have been another woman there as

9 well attending to another person?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: "Might" doesn't give a meaningful answer,

11 does it?

12 MR McCOMB: Sorry, of course. You saw one person, one

13 female; is that right? And you didn't have any

14 conversation with her yourself?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you see any of your colleagues ministering to that

17 person or putting him into the recovery position?

18 A. I remember Reserve Constable Silcock --

19 Q. Yes?

20 A. -- at one of the bodies also.

21 Q. You recall him being there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And indeed he has given evidence to that effect as well.

24 You do not recall seeing any of the Land Rover crew

25 there -- is that correct? -- from what you have just

136

1 said?

2 A. That would be correct.

3 Q. But again, in fairness to them, you were really there

4 for a very, very fleeting period of time --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- when we look at the timescale of your arrival, and

7 then you are dealing for the second time with Mr Lunt?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR McCOMB: Yes, thank you very much indeed.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Green?

11 Questions by MR GREEN

12 MR GREEN: Constable A, I ask questions on behalf of

13 Marc Hobson.

14 Now, Wayne Lunt was released from the rear of the

15 Land Rover at five minutes past two, and it was at that

16 stage that you rejoined your colleagues who were

17 endeavouring to contain the Protestant crowd in

18 Market Street. Isn't that right?

19 A. The crowd in Market Street, yes.

20 Q. And your colleagues were endeavouring to push that crowd

21 up towards West Street and Mandeville Street. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you saying that when you joined your colleagues you

25 are not able to tell us which of your colleagues were

137

1 present with you?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

3 Q. Can you not recall seeing Constable Neill at that time?

4 A. We were -- at that time we were all in a line. I don't

5 know even who was standing next to me at that stage.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: About how far apart would you be?

7 A. We would have been quite close together.

8 MR GREEN: Yes, you were forming a line. Were you linking

9 arms together?

10 A. No.

11 Q. But you were forming a line and trying to push the crowd

12 up the street?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you succeeding at all in doing that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you describe the crowd as at that stage being

17 aggressive?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And whilst perhaps not individually doing anything that

20 would have merited an arrest, they were a hostile and

21 aggressive crowd as a unit; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it is at that stage that you are able to recognise

24 Dean Forbes and Stacey Bridgett; isn't that right?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

138

1 Q. Now, these are young men who you recognised at that

2 time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Isn't that right? From your general duties as a police

5 officer. You knew Marc Hobson in 1997; isn't that

6 right?

7 A. Could I just see my statement again?

8 Q. Yes, indeed. I can put this statement up at

9 page [81691], at paragraph 27. If you could just have

10 a look at that. And there you say:

11 "I also knew Marc Hobson since 1996 from seeing him

12 around Portadown..."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, would you agree that a description of Marc Hobson

15 at that time would have been very short hair, overweight

16 with a goatee beard?

17 A. I can't recall.

18 Q. You can't recall. But did you not see Marc Hobson at

19 that time when you were assisting your colleagues

20 pushing the crowd up towards West Street and

21 Mandeville Street. Isn't that right?

22 A. I recall seeing them in the crowd at some stage.

23 Q. Do you see in paragraph 27 you are saying there that you

24 know Marc Hobson?

25 A. Yes.

139

1 Q. "... from seeing him around Portadown but I have never

2 arrested him; He was just another one of those faces

3 that pop up every now and then, and you get to know these

4 people."

5 Then you say:

6 "I did not see him at the scene of the incident."

7 Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR GREEN: Thank you.

10 Questions by MR ADAIR

11 MR ADAIR: Sir, now, I just want to ask you just a few

12 questions just to clarify a couple of things.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, if it will take more than

14 a minute or two, I think we had better give the

15 shorthand writer a break.

16 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you. Can I ask you this before we

17 break. There is another witness of mine here today,

18 Mr Adair, whom I think will be quite a while as well. I

19 don't know what Mr Underwood thinks, but it seems to be

20 rather late in the day to be starting him certainly.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm more in Mr Adair's hands than anybody

22 else. He's been here most of the day. I was hoping to

23 get him started at least.

24 MR ADAIR: I wonder could I talk to him in the interval.

25 Would it be helpful if you knew what his attitude was?

140

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

2 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

3 (4.25 pm)

4 (Short break)

5 (4.40 pm)

6 MR ADAIR: Sir, in relation to the next witness, Constable

7 Adams, his position is -- it is a matter for the Panel,

8 of course, but his position was that if there was a

9 possibility of running into tomorrow, he would prefer

10 to give the entire of his evidence in one tranche.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: But how long is it going to take? How long

12 will you be asking questions with the --

13 MR ADAIR: 10 minutes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: And how long will the rest of the other

15 witness take?

16 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I will probably be 20 minutes with

17 him, the next witness. So really very much a matter for

18 everybody else of whether they would be likely to take

19 more than about 40 minutes, I guess.

20 MR ADAIR: I'm in your hands, sir. The witness will do

21 whichever ...

22 THE CHAIRMAN: What will happen to tomorrow's timetable if

23 we don't go beyond this witness today?

24 MR UNDERWOOD: I am so sorry, I didn't hear half of that?

25 THE CHAIRMAN: What will happen to tomorrow's timetable if

141

1 we don't go beyond this witness today?

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Tomorrow is a very tight schedule. We are

3 likely to end up with knocking on into Friday. We are

4 already allowing some continuation of the third witness

5 tomorrow into Friday. I would rather not leach any

6 further.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we will carry on then and we will sit

8 tomorrow at 10 o'clock. If it will help. Yes?

9 Mr Adair?

10 MR ADAIR: Now, I want to ask you just a few questions about

11 your evidence and about just one other matter connected

12 with your evidence.

13 Now, you had mentioned, do you remember, describing

14 when you were at the scene seeing one of the police

15 officers who was at, I think was the word you used, one

16 of the injured parties. Do you remember him mentioning

17 that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If we turn up page [81686], just for clarification you

20 will see about halfway down paragraph 11, if we

21 highlight paragraph 11, you identify that officer. Do

22 you see, about five or six lines down?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you say that:

25 "[He] was near one of the bodies giving first aid"?

142

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So when you say he was over at one of the bodies, he was

3 actually administering first aid?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. To one of those persons. Yes, thank you.

6 Now, I wanted to ask you this -- and I mean,

7 actually, I should have said, to ask the last witness

8 about this -- you have served as a police officer for

9 how long?

10 A. 14 years.

11 Q. 14 years. Now, you will understand that nothing has

12 been proven against any police officer to date in

13 relation to their actions surrounding the investigation

14 of the Hamill incident. So I'm asking you a general

15 question as to what your thoughts as a police officer

16 are and would have been back in 1997 as to this

17 scenario.

18 If one of your colleagues had phoned up one of the

19 potential suspects in the death of Robert Hamill and

20 told him, for example, to do something which would

21 prejudice the investigation -- do you follow what I'm

22 saying?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- and had told him effectively that he would keep him

25 in touch with how the investigation was going --

143

1 I presume you have heard that type of allegation has

2 been made against an officer in this case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is your attitude and would your attitude be if that

5 is proven to be true?

6 A. I would be absolutely disgusted.

7 Q. From your knowledge of those officers that you worked

8 with -- you had been in Portadown for a year, isn't that

9 right, at the time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Previously you had been in the MSU?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. From your knowledge of their personalities, working with

14 them day in daily, can you say whether they feel the

15 same or differently from you?

16 A. They would feel the same as me.

17 Q. Now, you told us that you worked -- well, I'm not quite

18 sure whether you did actually tell us, but it is in your

19 Inquiry statement that you worked with the MSU, which is

20 the Mobile Support Unit?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you had worked with the Mobile Support Unit for

23 about four years prior to moving to Portadown?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Mobile Support Unit, the Panel will probably have

144

1 realised, is the unit that is called in whenever there

2 is trouble going on that the local police can't handle?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you were part of that, were you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are there many ladies in it, or were there many ladies

7 in it? Please don't take any of these questions the

8 wrong way, incidentally. I'm just trying to enquire

9 factually: Were there many ladies involved in the MSU?

10 A. You possibly would have had one woman per unit at that

11 stage.

12 Q. One woman per -- and how many were in a unit?

13 A. One, four and 24.

14 Q. I'm sorry?

15 A. One, four and 24. One inspector, four sergeants,

16 24 constables.

17 Q. So about 29 people?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And one of those would be, in those days -- I don't know

20 if it is different now -- would be a woman?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you expected to do the same type of riot control

23 work as the men?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you carry out the same type of riot control work as

145

1 the men throughout the years in the MSU?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Looking back now, did that influence your thinking as to

4 why you jumped out of the car and chased this man we now

5 believe to be Lunt in the midst of what was obviously

6 a pretty hectic situation? Was it your training with

7 the MSU, or why was it you did that?

8 A. It was just my training full stop, as a police

9 constable.

10 Q. In the MSU we know that they attend various riot scenes

11 and other types of situations that are going on. Going

12 back to 1997, did you have -- whatever this word

13 "briefing" or "debriefing" means -- debriefings after

14 public order situations when you were a member of the

15 MSU?

16 A. Sometimes we would have, yes.

17 Q. And what would that involve?

18 A. If we were deployed to an area that we didn't know, for

19 instance, say, we were deployed to Belfast, the

20 debriefing would consist of letting us know, like, what

21 road we started on, you know, we turned left down

22 Ainsworth Avenue or, you know -- it was just to get

23 street name, et cetera, timings and place.

24 Q. But there may be some misunderstanding amongst -- we

25 here are not police officers -- as to what debriefings

146

1 are. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. Are

2 you saying that the debriefings you are talking about

3 was to fill you in with information which may not have

4 been within your own personal knowledge because you were

5 in a strange area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And possibly that's just one scenario. What other type

8 of debriefing would you have received?

9 A. Within the MSU or ...?

10 Q. We will start with MSU.

11 A. Well, if a riot situation had taken place, you know, you

12 would have got details that plastic could be fired and

13 you would be given the time that that order was given.

14 Q. I'm talking about debriefing as opposed to briefing now.

15 A. Yes, no, on debriefing a plastic was fired and an order

16 was given, you would be given the timing that that order

17 was given.

18 Q. So were debriefings, were they meant to get out whatever

19 personal information you had about the incident or was

20 that left to the making of a statement?

21 A. You would have got out, you know -- I don't really

22 understand the question, I'm sorry.

23 Q. All I'm trying to find out is what happened on

24 a debriefing. At the time you had your debriefings,

25 were all the officers in one room?

147

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Have you ever, for example, attended court to give

3 evidence about a riot situation you were in?

4 A. I don't believe I have, no.

5 Q. Have you ever heard suggestions made by lawyers acting

6 on behalf of defendants where policemen or women have

7 got together in a room after the event and the

8 suggestion is very often made that they have got

9 together and made up their stories together --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- and put in names because one officer mentions one

12 name and the other latches on?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have heard that being talked about in the police?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's what I'm trying to find out: were debriefings

17 held communally or individually?

18 A. They would have been held as a section or a unit.

19 Q. So, therefore, were the details of what you had seen or

20 who you had seen discussed in that communal situation in

21 these debriefs?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So, then, how was the information about what you had

24 seen or who you had seen -- how was that imparted to the

25 investigating team? Was that by a statement or --

148

1 A. By your statement and your notebook entry.

2 Q. Yes. Then leaving aside the MSU for a moment, going to

3 your time in Portadown, had you been in other public

4 order situations while a constable?

5 A. As an ordinary uniformed constable?

6 Q. Yes, yes.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was this the only one?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you surprised there wasn't a debriefing, or not?

11 A. I was a bit surprised. We didn't really know what was

12 happening, you know. We didn't know the extent of

13 injuries to Mr Hamill, et cetera, so, yes, I was a bit

14 surprised about that.

15 Q. Was your surprise before or after you discovered the

16 extent of the injury; in other words, at the time when

17 it was known -- sorry, it wasn't known whether the

18 injuries were serious, would you have expected a debrief

19 at that stage?

20 A. Not necessarily, no.

21 Q. We know that it did become known, I think around about

22 4 am in the morning when the Inspector phoned the

23 hospital, that the injuries were serious. And you were

24 still on duty until, I think it was 8 o'clock in the

25 morning?

149

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So are you saying that you are surprised you didn't

3 receive a debrief once it became known the injuries were

4 serious?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes. And what would you have expected the nature of

7 that debrief to be?

8 A. That -- I would have expected that CID would have held

9 it and that any names and anything that we had witnessed

10 was given to CID.

11 Q. In what way? Are you saying other than by a statement,

12 or ...?

13 A. I would say just by the statement, you know.

14 Q. Well, that didn't happen. We know that did happen. You

15 were asked to make a statement. Sorry, I think your

16 evidence is you simply made a statement, I think was

17 your evidence.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So I know you had done that. So is there something else

20 that you expected to be debriefed about? You made

21 a statement setting out what you had seen and what you

22 had done.

23 A. Just really about the state that, you know, that

24 Robert Hamill was in, you know. I would have liked to

25 have known that, you know, at the time.

150

1 THE CHAIRMAN: A debriefing is much more concerned with what

2 you can tell those in charge of any investigation than

3 information they may pass on to you, do you follow?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Mr Adair is wanting to know what's

6 the kind of information you would pass on to those

7 dealing with the investigation, and how?

8 A. Well, if it was a one-on-one, you know, if the

9 debriefing had happened, you know, I possibly could have

10 been asked, "What did you do? What about this boy Lunt,

11 you know, what happened there?" You know, and just

12 afterwards you would make a statement.

13 MR ADAIR: I think you've fairly said in answer -- I can't

14 remember to who -- that it might be, you have told us, I

15 think, that this information about the conversation

16 might have come out of your debrief. I think that's

17 your --

18 A. The radio transmission, you mean?

19 Q. No, what you said about the man telling you that Lunt

20 had been involved in the incident.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are debriefings -- are they two-way traffic or are they

23 the officer giving you the information and you giving

24 the officer information? What are they?

25 A. It would be a two-way.

151

1 Q. And is there not concern -- and, again, help us with

2 this: Is there not concern, if it is a two-way passing

3 of information, about subsequent allegations being made

4 of fabrication and collusion and so on? Is that not

5 talked about? Maybe it is not, I don't know.

6 A. It would have been talked about at the time, but I don't

7 know whether we would have ever got a briefing about it.

8 I think it would have just been ...

9 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about is the

10 interview you had with two senior officers in 2001. Do

11 you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were interviewed and you were first of all

14 served with what is called a Form 17/3?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which set out a number of allegations being made against

17 you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that was just about four years after the incident

20 had occurred; isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think we can see your 17/3 at page [10717]. And

23 we will see that the date of it is 27 June and you

24 acknowledge the service on 3 July. So it is over four

25 years after the incident had occurred?

152

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were interviewed, and am I right in saying that

3 you were subsequently admonished?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you accept that admonishment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can I ask you this, first of all: I know you have

8 expressed upset about the way that occurred, and so on?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If you had been admonished for what you have today

11 accepted you failed to do --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- if you had been admonished three or four months after

14 this incident, would you have accepted it without

15 reservation?

16 A. Yes.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: That is asked in a very leading form. Mind

18 you, she is really your witness.

19 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir, it is and I thought it was

20 a non-controversial issue that I had discussed -- that I

21 had certainly mentioned to my friends before.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

23 MR ADAIR: Did you become aware that the way you had been

24 admonished -- and the Inquiry may well hear evidence

25 about this in due course -- that the admonishment -- let

153

1 me ask you this: were you advised before you accepted

2 the admonishment that you could refuse to accept it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You weren't?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you say now whether you are aware now that under the

7 codes and the regulations you should have been advised

8 that you could refuse to accept it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know you could refuse to accept it? At the time

11 you accepted it, did you know you could refuse to

12 accept it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So let me ask you this question: can you say whether it

15 is the fact of the admonishment or the way that it

16 occurred that causes you concern?

17 A. The way that it occurred.

18 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

19 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter. I'm sure it is my fault,

21 but there is a bit of confusion about your evidence on

22 one issue and that is whether you saw the four people

23 who were in the Land Rover in the first place out and

24 active.

25 You told me that you did and that they were out

154

1 doing their best, not able to be effective because they

2 were so outnumbered. Then you were asked specifically

3 about individual officers and you gave slightly

4 different answers.

5 Doing the best you can after all this time, can you

6 tell us what your settled position is on this? When you

7 arrived and when you saw the four from the first Land

8 Rover, were they or were they not out and about?

9 A. They were, yes.

10 Q. And to explore that a little bit further, were they

11 active and doing their best to control the situation?

12 A. They were, yes.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it that you can't just lock someone in

15 the Land Rover and leave them?

16 A. No.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: They can get out?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Whatever damage they might do?

20 Yes, thank you.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed.

22 A. Thank you.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Constable Adams now, and the position

24 is, of course, that the family who have been out in

25 the press room can be present during this witness.

155

1 MR McGRORY: Somebody is away to get them.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much.

3 JOHN ADAMS (sworn)

4 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. My name is Underwood, I'm

6 Counsel to the Inquiry. I have got some questions for

7 you and then it may well be that a few more will be

8 addressed to you by other people.

9 I'm not going to ask your name, but can you have

10 a look at a statement and see if it is yours. On screen

11 it will come up as [80001]. Can we just flick through

12 the six pages of this statement briefly? Is that your

13 statement?

14 A. Yes, that is my statement, yes.

15 Q. Is it true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. If we go back to the first page,

18 paragraph 3, you say on the night of 26 April you were

19 stationed at Portadown and on general patrol duties with

20 another officer whom we are calling [Reserve Constable

21 Silcock]. Can you tell us what your call sign was on

22 that occasion, if you can recall it?

23 A. From what I can recall, I think it was JB70.

24 Q. Thank you. If we look at page [03838], the final

25 paragraph of that is a note which is the result of an

156

1 investigation of which vehicles turned up when made on

2 12 June 1997:

3 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery

4 Mondeo, followed within seconds by [what I take to be]

5 the armoured Ford Sierra, both these vehicles parked at

6 the junction of Thomas Street/Market Street."

7 The third vehicle, driven by another constable, then

8 turns up. Can you tell us which vehicle you were in?

9 A. I would have been in the first vehicle that arrived at

10 the scene.

11 Q. A livery Mondeo, you think? I don't want to put words

12 into your mouth. Can you recall what sort of car it

13 was?

14 A. I can't recall whether it was a livery vehicle or not.

15 I would assume it was an armoured vehicle, but whether

16 it was a liveried vehicle or not, I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. Back on your page [80001], paragraph 3, you

18 tell us in the final sentence of that third paragraph:

19 "I have patrolled that area many times myself and

20 have seen a number of incidents there."

21 Obviously I'm going to ask you in a little more

22 detail in a moment about what it is that you saw on the

23 night and how the scene developed. Relatively speaking,

24 though, compared with the other incidents you

25 experienced there, how serious was the incident that we

157

1 are talking about?

2 A. It would have been fairly serious compared with the

3 other incidents. Other incidents would have been more

4 of a minor nature over the years.

5 Q. And we have had a witness, a civilian witness, who said

6 that he had been in Portadown on more than one occasion

7 when fights were going on and there was a Land Rover

8 parked there, a police Land Rover, and the police didn't

9 get out of the Land Rover. Have you any experience of

10 such a situation?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. You say in paragraph 4 that [Reserve Constable

13 Silcock], as we are calling him, and you heard a transmission

14 requesting assistance and the two of you headed off into the

15 town centre straight away. You entered via Edward Street.

16 We know there were barriers around the town?

17 A. Yes, correct, at that time, yes.

18 Q. Was Edward Street the only way you could get through?

19 A. Yes, it was the only entrance, past the police station.

20 Q. Okay. If we go over to page [80002], top paragraph:

21 "I also noticed two people lying on the road just at

22 the mouth of Thomas Street. Those two people were being

23 attended to by members of the public. There was no ambulance at

24 the scene."

25 Can you help us with the general event at the time

158

1 you arrived? Were there police on the street?

2 A. Yes, there were indeed, yes.

3 Q. Was there fighting?

4 A. There was no fighting as such. The people on the street

5 certainly were boisterous and shouting, but no fighting

6 as such when we arrived.

7 Q. Were the people who were lying on the ground being

8 attacked?

9 A. I have no recollection of seeing them being attacked

10 when we arrived.

11 Q. What action did you think was called for by you?

12 A. My initial reaction was to get out and to deal with the

13 crowd that was there, and when I got out of the vehicle,

14 I just went to the closest group that I met as I got out

15 of the vehicle to deal with them.

16 Q. You said they were boisterous. In what way did they

17 need dealing with?

18 A. To keep them back from the opposing crowd that was on up

19 the street.

20 Q. Was this a neat division between two crowds trying to

21 get at each other, or what?

22 A. In what way do you mean "a neat division"?

23 Q. You are saying you needed to deal with the crowd and

24 you've developed that by saying you needed to keep, in

25 a sense, the opposing sections apart?

159

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were there nice neat lines of Protestants and Catholics,

3 or were there lots of little groups, or how was it?

4 A. There would have been two separate groups: the

5 Protestants on up the streets and the Roman Catholics

6 were just about the entrance of Woodhouse Street, about

7 that area.

8 Q. If we look at the model, we have a standard model I

9 would like to show you.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. This is the shot taken essentially from outside

12 Eastwoods. For a start, we put the Land Rover over

13 there for people to comment on, agree or disagree

14 whether that was its position. Can you help us about

15 whether there was the Land Rover there?

16 A. Yes, it was in that general area. It was somewhere --

17 as to what way it was facing, I know it was facing down

18 the street, but whether it was facing into -- which you

19 diagram seems to indicate, into the mouth of

20 Woodhouse Street, I don't know or it was facing down the

21 street, but I know it was in that general area.

22 Q. Do I get it right then that the Catholic group was over

23 towards the Land Rover?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The other side of the Land Rover or this side?

160

1 A. I wouldn't be sure about that, to be honest. I wouldn't

2 be sure about that.

3 Q. Were the Protestants nearer where the photographer is?

4 A. They would be back up somewhere towards where Clarks

5 shop is, or that area.

6 Q. To the left then?

7 A. To the left, yes.

8 Q. We can swing this scene around if we need to, but does

9 this scene include the area where the two people on the

10 ground were or do we need to go to the left or the

11 right?

12 A. That's only showing one side of the carriageway, if I'm

13 right.

14 Q. If we go round to the left, you will get a better view

15 of what it shows you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You just see the side of Eastwoods on the immediate left

18 of the --

19 A. Okay, yes.

20 Q. And the central reservation is that thin grey line

21 running up towards the church. Would it be better if

22 I showed you a map?

23 A. No, I think I can manage with that all right, yes.

24 Q. Does this scene that we have got on the screen at the

25 moment include the area where the two bodies were?

161

1 A. Probably a bit more down to the right of the screen. Go

2 back a wee bit. Yes, it was somewhere just --

3 Q. I can give you control of this screen and allow you to

4 write on it, if you would. Perhaps we can do a screen

5 shot. Just doing the best you can for us when the

6 technology is enabling us to do it -- have you got the

7 white pen there? That will allow you to write on the

8 screen, if you would.

9 A. Just somewhere about there. I think, in that general

10 area. Again, there was two casualties. As to exactly

11 where each casualty was, I wouldn't be sure.

12 Q. If we go back to your statement at page [80002],

13 paragraph 6, you say:

14 "I estimated there were about 20 to 30 people in the

15 Protestant crowd. That crowd was chanting and cheering

16 and trying to push past the police officers who were

17 holding them back."

18 Is that your recollection now?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. And you say there were only three or four officers at

21 that stage and they were known to be the officers in the

22 Land Rover?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. That's still your recollection, is it? Then if we go

25 over the page to [80003], top of the page, paragraph 9,

162

1 you talk about one of the men in the group you were

2 with. And in the middle of that paragraph:

3 "The older man was chanting and shouting and he came

4 over after I'd arrived, perhaps down from

5 Woodhouse Street."

6 Did you see people coming down from Woodhouse Street

7 who had to be held back or is this just the group that

8 you observed when you started off?

9 A. It was just mainly the group that was there when we

10 arrived. Now, some of them may have left and, again,

11 been replaced by someone else coming up from

12 Woodhouse Street.

13 Q. The impression that this gives -- and see what you say

14 about this -- is that there were some officers who were

15 with the Protestants trying to keep them back and then

16 there were officers who were with the Catholics trying

17 to keep them away?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. And you were part of the second group; is that right?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. And if we look, please, at page [06592], this is part of

22 a radio transmission transcript and if we look at the

23 entry for 2:01.55, this is discussion between the lady

24 officer who we have just had. I think you know who she

25 is -- or did you not see her?

163

1 A. I didn't see her.

2 Q. We are calling her Constable A. Do you know who

3 that is?

4 A. Yes, okay, yes.

5 Q. This is a conversation between her over the radio and

6 the radio controller at the station, and she is asking

7 here about the address of a Wayne Lunt. And this is

8 part of a passage in which the address he is given isn't

9 the address being shown up on the details held in the

10 station.

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And the controller is saying I'm under the impression

13 that they have moved out somewhere:

14 "Constable Adams in B70 might be able to help you on

15 that, over."

16 And the officer says:

17 "Roger, that's okay. Constable Adams has cleared it with me."

18 Have you got a recollection of that? Of whether you

19 are the Constable Adams being spoken of?

20 A. I do not have a clear recollection of it, yes. But from

21 what we are saying now, yes, I would say it was myself

22 all right now. But as to the full details of what the

23 conversation was about, I can't recall at all now as to

24 what it was all about.

25 Q. Because it would follow from the evidence you have

164

1 given, would it, that you were quite close by the Land

2 Rover?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if we go over to page [80004], paragraph 13 at the

5 top, you say:

6 "When I arrived back at the scene ..."

7 I'm sorry, I should just tell you that what passes

8 before this in your statement is that you had gone back

9 to help out, get a baton gun?

10 A. Yes, okay.

11 Q. You say:

12 "When I arrived back at the scene, the group which I

13 had been watching in Woodhouse Street had dispersed.

14 The Protestant crowd had not dispersed, but had been

15 moved up Market Street towards West Street. There was

16 an ambulance at the scene by then. I joined the other

17 officers moving the crowd up West Street."

18 So is that right, that you, as it were, had had your

19 time out going to get the baton gun, by the time you

20 came back the Catholics at Woodhouse Street weren't

21 a problem?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. Can you help us with the atmosphere by this stage and

24 just what the Protestant crowd was doing and how they

25 were treating being moved up?

165

1 A. They was still shouting and getting on, like, from that

2 crowd when I arrived back there. I think actually the

3 ambulance went into the scene when we were back at the

4 police station. They would have had to come in the same

5 way past the police station. Maybe we met it on the way

6 to the police station, I can't recall, but ...

7 Q. Okay. And if we go to paragraph 14, you tell us about

8 Rory Robinson and escorting him offside. Final three

9 lines:

10 "He had been in the crowd earlier, but I didn't see

11 him do anything in particular. He didn't say anything

12 of significance to me as I escorted him."

13 That's escorted him back down the town?

14 A. Yes, okay.

15 Q. When you say you didn't see him doing anything in

16 particular, did you see him as part of the crowd, part

17 of the Protestant crowd?

18 A. I must have noticed him at some stage among that crowd

19 whenever I arrived back from the police station.

20 Q. But you can't help us with what he was doing?

21 A. No, I can't, no.

22 Q. Is there anybody else that you saw and recognised that

23 night who you didn't report in your notebook or your

24 statement afterwards?

25 A. No.

166

1 Q. Did you hold back from doing anything or do anything

2 because you have an attitude towards Catholics?

3 A. Absolutely not, no.

4 Q. And one other matter I want to ask you about: one of the

5 Catholic witnesses has told us that he helped pull

6 people who were kicking Mr Hamill off him and that

7 police officers came along and helped out and they were

8 successful in pulling the kickers off. Did you see or

9 take part in any of that?

10 A. I don't recall seeing that or taking part in that, no.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

12 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

13 Questions by MR McGRORY

14 MR McGRORY: I have very few questions. Are you still in

15 the police, sir?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. I want to ask you a few questions on behalf of the

18 Hamill family, if you don't mind. I'll not keep you too

19 long.

20 Can you clear up for us just when you were shown the

21 entry in the exchange that the previous witness had --

22 I'm sorry, I haven't got the ciphers to hand. It is

23 a female witness, Constable A, sorry -- Constable A had

24 with the base in the police station, the radio exchange

25 concerning Wayne Lunt's address?

167

1 A. Right.

2 Q. You were just asked that a moment ago and you said you

3 hadn't a clear recollection of being asked about that at

4 the time; is that correct?

5 A. I can't recall now whether I actually spoke to her on

6 the ground or whether I answered her on the radio to

7 confirm it. I don't know.

8 Q. Can I just tell you what you said about that when you

9 spoke to the Inquiry? It is in your statement at the

10 bottom of paragraph 15 on page 4 of your statement. You

11 say that:

12 "I do not think I knew Wayne Lunt at the time ..."

13 It is the very last line:

14 "... but I knew a xxxxxxxxxx, Wayne's brother."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This might be the answer to this. Have you any

17 recollection that you were asked about the Lunts' house?

18 A. That is a possibility as to confirm the address or

19 Something like that, because it -- rather than the

20 address for the individual, it might have been just for

21 the family.

22 Q. If you didn't know Wayne Lunt, how would you know he was

23 xxxxxxxxxx's brother? Is that something you now know or do

24 you think it was something you knew then?

25 A. Whether I knew it at the time or not, I don't know, I

168

1 couldn't say, or whether I had become aware of it since

2 then. I don't know.

3 Q. You don't know. I'll take that matter no further.

4 I just want to ask you a question about the people

5 you were holding back in Woodhouse Street. There were

6 two rival factions, you say?

7 A. That's correct, yes.

8 Q. That were being held apart. Would it be correct to say

9 that those that you were holding back from coming out of

10 Woodhouse Street were from the Catholic or Nationalist

11 side?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. Would it be reasonable to suggest that if you were

14 holding them back, there would be a reason for holding

15 them back? Were they getting upset at this point?

16 A. Well, obviously they were and there was potential for

17 further trouble if they got further up the street where

18 the Protestant crowd was being held back at the other

19 end.

20 Q. Yes, and would they have been shouting things at the

21 Protestant crowd?

22 A. Yes, they would have been, yes, but don't ask me what

23 was being shouted because there were hostilities being

24 shouted in both directions.

25 Q. We can imagine what they would have been --

169

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Anyway, they were shouting sufficiently for you to get

3 worried that they needed to be held back?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In terms of any debriefings, you have heard the phrase

6 "debriefing" mentioned?

7 A. I have certainly, yes.

8 Q. Can you recall that night being asked any questions

9 about what happened? Did anybody sit you down and say,

10 "Look, what happened here?"

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. What is your impression of what a debriefing ought

13 to be?

14 A. Well, it would be a review of what has happened or

15 anything that needs to be done or anything that could be

16 learned from the incident.

17 Q. And would that be on a one-to-one basis or would you

18 have expected it to be in a group format, or what way

19 would they have occurred?

20 A. It could have been on a one-to-one or it could been in

21 a group for any officers involved in any incident.

22 Q. Was there a standard way of taking debriefings either on

23 one-to-one --

24 A. I wouldn't have said there was any kind of standard way

25 of it being done.

170

1 Q. Had you them in both circumstances? Have you had

2 debriefings both on one-to-one and in a group?

3 A. Not on a kind of a regular basis as such, no. Any

4 incidents, you know, you would do -- if there was

5 anything to be passed on to your sergeant or anything in

6 the next section, they would be made aware of it at the

7 end of an incident or whatever, if anything needed to be

8 carried out, but no direct debriefings out of an

9 incident like that as such.

10 Q. Have you never had a debriefing after a public disorder

11 incident?

12 A. I can't say that I have really had a debriefing as such.

13 Debriefings probably were more appropriate if we were

14 doing a planned operation, a planned police -- say it

15 was a search or something like that. Then you would

16 come back in and there would be a kind of a debriefing

17 and a collation of who done what or what happened or

18 that type of thing, but not for the like of this.

19 Q. Yes. In other words, if there had been a specific

20 briefing about what you were going to do, then you would

21 have expected the debriefing after it was over?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. But it wasn't your experience that there would be

24 a debriefing in the circumstances of this incident?

25 A. No.

171

1 Q. You made a statement that was date 27 April 1997. It is

2 not countersigned by anybody else. It is on

3 page [11051] and [11052]. Well, there is another name

4 there on the left-hand side at the top of the page. Do

5 you see that? P15 is the cipher given to that name on

6 the left-hand side; your own name is on the right-hand

7 side:

8 "By whom this statement was recorded and received."

9 Do you see that at the top of the page? It is

10 a printed signature, but it is ciphered at the moment,

11 [DS Lawther]. Have you got [11051] on the screen?

12 SIR JOHN EVANS: He is looking at the cipher.

13 MR McGRORY: Sorry, you are looking for the cipher, thank

14 you. Sorry, for some reason I have [DS Lawther] on mine but

15 there may be a new cipher. It is DS Lawther.

16 A. Okay, yes, I'm with you now.

17 Q. Have you got DS Lawther?

18 A. Yes, he is here.

19 Q. Sorry, I must have an old cipher on my statement. Was

20 that person with you when you made this statement; Ds Lawther?

21 A. I don't think so, no, I don't think so.

22 Q. You see, his name is printed there, where it says

23 "signature of member", but his signature doesn't appear

24 in this. That's what I'm saying to you. Is it your

25 recollection that he was with you?

172

1 A. I don't believe he would have been with me. I don't see

2 that he would have been with me. Obviously that's

3 a typed statement, so what was on the original statement

4 ... on the handwritten statement, I don't know.

5 Q. Then at the second page, [11052], there is another name

6 written in hand, yes, whom I believe is DS Bradley. If you

7 would have a look at DS Bradley?

8 A. Yes, that's okay, yes.

9 Q. Now, that's a signature this time?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Have you any recollection whether that policeman was

12 present?

13 A. No, I have no recollection.

14 Q. So I'm just trying to understand how these other two

15 policemen come to be involved in this statement. Did

16 you write it out by hand?

17 A. Yes, the statement would have been handwritten and then

18 typed up.

19 Q. And when you handed it over before you left -- did you

20 hand it over before you left that morning?

21 A. I would assume I did now, but I can't recall. Yes, I

22 probably would have left before I finished that morning.

23 Q. Can you remember to whom you gave this statement?

24 A. No, I can't.

25 Q. Was it countersigned in your presence?

173

1 A. I don't know, I couldn't say.

2 Q. But in any event, nobody read it over before you left

3 and asked you any questions about it?

4 A. No, I don't recall anyone asking me anything further. I

5 had done the statement and it was handed over to someone

6 from CID.

7 Q. Was there anyone else in the room when you did your

8 statement?

9 A. I can't recall.

10 MR McGRORY: You can't recall. Thank you very much.

11 A. Okay.

12 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.

13 Questions by MR ADAIR

14 MR ADAIR: Just a couple of brief things. If we go back to

15 the previous page, [11052]. I'm not sure whether the

16 system is the same across the water as it is here, but

17 can you tell the Panel -- you see where it says,

18 "P84" [DS Lawther], signature member by whom the statement was

19 recorded or received. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When it says "received", what does that mean in your

22 understanding? We know what "recorded" means?

23 A. That officer -- that person received the statement

24 from me.

25 Q. Does it indicate at what stage he receives it from you?

174

1 A. No, there is nothing to indicate at what stage, no.

2 Q. Is that the typed statement he is referring to or is it

3 the original he is referring to? Do you follow? You

4 write out a handwritten statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who do you hand it to?

7 A. It would be handed -- in that case I would have handed

8 it to CID and my understanding is he would have signed

9 the handwritten statement and that statement then would

10 subsequently be typed and, therefore, his signature then

11 would be typed on to the typed statement.

12 Q. So do you know at what stage he received the statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If you go to the next page then, [11052], this other

15 signature, there is a handwritten signature on the typed

16 copy. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, again, I'm not sure if the system is the same

19 across the water, but are there typed statements made up

20 for preliminary enquiry in this jurisdiction? Are you

21 aware of that from your --

22 A. I am indeed, yes.

23 Q. And during the course of preparing those typed

24 statements, does an officer certify that they are true

25 copies of the original?

175

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The typed copy that we have tells its own

3 story. The witness made a statement himself in

4 manuscript. That statement, when it was completed and

5 no doubt signed, was handed to the other officer who

6 signed to show that he had either written it or received

7 it. Then we can see that that is, after that, typed up

8 and then it is certified as a true copy and signed, and

9 that's why one gets the signatures simply typed in.

10 MR ADAIR: That's right, sir. I wasn't sure whether the

11 same -- whether the same principles --

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know, I'm sure.

13 MR ADAIR: -- applied over there.

14 SIR JOHN EVANS: They are the same forms.

15 MR ADAIR: Thanks. There is only one other thing I want to

16 ask you about and that is could I have page [09967],

17 please? Now, this is your notebook entry. Do you

18 see -- if we could highlight from 02:30 -- it appears you

19 left town with Inspector McCrum to supervise division;

20 is that right?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. So are you his driver at that stage, essentially?

23 A. Essentially, yes, I was his driver from that point on,

24 yes.

25 Q. Can you remember where you went to? We know it covered

176

1 Lurgan, Banbridge, Portadown.

2 A. I couldn't say for definite that night. I probably went

3 to Lurgan and maybe Craigavon. Whether we went to

4 Banbridge or not that night, I don't know.

5 Q. Then 3.30, a break at station. Now, you see at 4.30:

6 "Resumed mobile as detailed, assisted CID

7 re enquiries regarding above incident. Obins Street

8 area."

9 What does that mean?

10 A. Obviously we were just providing cover to CID officers

11 that were going in to, like, follow up enquiries that

12 morning.

13 Q. Is this outside the station or inside the station, or

14 where is this because you say "resumed mobile"?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And "assisted CID."

17 I'm just trying to ascertain what that means?

18 A. It would have been -- mobile were told back-up to the

19 CID officers in the Obins Street area.

20 Q. Has it anything to do with this incident or is it to do

21 with some other incident?

22 A. It would have been to do with this incident, yes.

23 Q. That's what rather -- I mean, what CID officers was it

24 that you were assisting?

25 A. I couldn't recall now who it was, I couldn't recall.

177

1 Q. Okay.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: You have the advantage of us but is the

3 Obins Street area an area which includes the junction of

4 Thomas Street and High Street --

5 A. It is from the bottom end of Woodhouse Street, you go

6 into Obins Street.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

8 MR ADAIR: So it is the same area. It would be described as

9 being the same area as Woodhouse Street.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 MR ADAIR: That's why I was asking what it meant. The

13 final thing I want to ask you is I take it you are aware

14 of the nature of some of the allegations that have been

15 made against a police officer in this case, concerning

16 phoning a suspect and so on?

17 A. Yes, I become aware of it some time after -- maybe years

18 after this event.

19 Q. If they are true -- and I emphasise if they are true --

20 what is your attitude towards that officer?

21 A. I would be totally disgusted if that were true. It is

22 something that should never have happened, if it did

23 happen.

24 MR ADAIR: Thank you.

25 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

178

1 THE CHAIRMAN: You are free to go.

2 A. Thank you very much.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: We wonder about 10 o'clock in the morning in

5 view of the workload there is -- and things seem to

6 happen to find we miss 15 minutes here and 15 minutes

7 there.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: For safety's sake, 10 o'clock would certainly

9 be wise.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10 o'clock.

11 (5.35 pm)

12 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10 o'clock the following day)

179

1 I N D E X

2
Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD ...................... 1
3
Submissions by MR ADAIR .......................... 16
4 Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD ...................... 26
GODFREY DEAN SILCOCK (sworn) ..................... 38
5
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 38
6
Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 53
7
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 54
8
Questions by MS DINSMORE .................... 65
9
Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 66
10
Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 68
11
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 70
12
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 73
13
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 81
14
Application by MR McGRORY ........................ 83
15
A (sworn) ........................................ 88
16
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 88
17
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 114
18
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 127
19
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 131
20
Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 137
21
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 140
22
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 154
23
JOHN ADAMS (sworn) ............................... 156
24
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 156
25
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 167

180

1
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 174
2

181

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 18th March 2009, day 29