- - - - - - - - - - PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF ROBERT HAMILL - - - - - - - - - - Held at: Interpoint 20-24 York Street Belfast on Wednesday, 18 March 2009 commencing at 10.30 am Day 29 1 Wednesday, 18 March 2009 2 (10.30 am) 3 (Proceedings delayed) 4 (10.50 am) 5 Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr Underwood, for the delay in 7 sitting. You have probably known there are various 8 matters we have had to consider. 9 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite. Sir, we are in the happy position of 10 having finished the civilian witnesses save for, I 11 think, two or three that need to be rescheduled, and the 12 next group of witnesses we are about to hear are police 13 officers who were at the scene in Portadown in the early 14 hours of 27 April. They comprise the officers in the 15 Land Rover and back-up officers. 16 I am proposing to call the back-up officers first, 17 which may seem perverse, but of course there is 18 a history of allegations against those officers which 19 has led to this Inquiry being established and I want to 20 give the best possible opportunity for all the evidence 21 that may be material to them to be out before they give 22 evidence, out of fairness to them. 23 The evidence generally of this group of witnesses 24 goes to a number of matters. Clearly to start with it 25 will cover what the officers in the Land Rover were told 1 1 by way of briefing to do on the night. It will also, of 2 course, cover what they saw and what they did on the 3 night. 4 So far as the back-up officers go -- briefings 5 rather less important -- so far as they are concerned, 6 the important question is what they saw; in particular, 7 were the Land Rover officers out and what were they 8 doing by the time the back-up officers arrived, and what 9 can the back-up officers tell us about the anatomy of 10 the fight when they arrived. And much of that will also 11 go to the question of Robert Atkinson, as we are now 12 calling him, the officer who may or may not have had a 13 conversation subsequently with Mr Hanvey. 14 There are other aspects of the Inquiry which these 15 officers at the scene can impinge on, for example, 16 scene preservation and the early stages of the 17 investigation. Although those are matters which will be 18 more thoroughly covered by the investigative officers, 19 there is an obviously important stage at which, as it 20 were, there is a transition between the officers on the 21 scene who saw and heard things which they could and 22 should have reported to the detectives and the 23 detectives themselves. And in order to see what it is 24 they should have reported, of course, we need to find 25 out what it is they saw or perhaps should have seen. 2 1 There are a number of issues that arise in this 2 aspect of the evidence, or this part of the evidence 3 rather. The first is the experience and the training of 4 those who were on duty and the adequacy of it. You will 5 see some personnel records, insofar as they are 6 material, to show the degree to which the officers who 7 attended were trained in specific matters, such as scene 8 preservation, or were not trained in it. 9 The second issue is about briefing. There is 10 a manual on public order which sets out the essential 11 elements of the briefing. Perhaps we could have a look 12 at that on the screen. It is at page [10810], 13 paragraph 20.1: 14 "Briefing is the issuing of instructions to 15 personnel detailing arrangements prior to, and during, 16 the policing of events. Proper briefing is essential to 17 ensure the personnel involved in any public order/disorder 18 situation know exactly what police action is to be taken 19 and the reasons for it and how such action is to be 20 implemented. Each individual officer involved should 21 know his own particular role and how this fits into the 22 overall plan. This may be amplified by a precise 23 written instruction setting out the members' duties. 24 Sufficient time must be allowed to cater for briefing in 25 respect of all operations." 3 1 Then 20.2 under "Considerations": 2 "Briefing should be in two phases, the overall 3 commander briefing all officers of or above the rank of 4 inspector and the inspector in turn briefing his 5 particular serial." 6 Obviously you are going to hear evidence from the 7 officers about how they were briefed and no doubt you 8 will assess it against those standards. 9 Then the next issue is what is the evidence of those 10 who were in the Land Rover about what they could see and 11 when they got out. I think it is fair to say that only 12 one Catholic witness now says the police never got out 13 of the Land Rover at any material time. That's 14 Mr McNeice, and you have heard evidence from Mr Prunty, 15 conversely, that the officers and he pulled people off 16 Mr Hamill while they were kicking him and that it may 17 well be those officers were the officers in the Land 18 Rover. It is yet to be established, of course. 19 If it does transpire that the McNeice evidence is 20 right, then, of course, the question arises why did they 21 stay there. And you will have in mind perhaps the 22 evidence of Mr Blevins who said that on a number of 23 occasions he walked through the town when there was 24 a fight and there was a Land Rover and the police sat 25 there perhaps because the fights were never technically 4 1 serious. It is possibility -- I only float it as one -- 2 that that's what happened here and it got out of hand. 3 Then you will fourthly, no doubt, consider steps 4 taken to obtain back-up. We will hear the radio calls 5 in a minute and you will see there were plentiful calls 6 for back-up and, indeed, back-up did arrive although 7 there was a little confusion about in precisely what 8 form it arrived. 9 Then fifthly one will need to consider perhaps the 10 adequacy of the behaviour of the back-up officers, in 11 particular was Mr Hamill being attacked when they 12 arrived and, if so, did they do anything about that. 13 Finally on the events of the night, the question 14 arises whose responsibility was it to secure the scene 15 and what steps were taken. I said these witnesses also 16 impinge on the investigation side of the Inquiry and 17 there is a number of aspects of that. The first 18 question is whether there was any adequate debriefing so 19 that if they didn't retell to the detectives what they 20 had seen, whose fault that might be. Debriefing is set 21 out again in that manual on public order, and perhaps we 22 can look at page [10812]. If we highlight the second 23 half: 24 "Effective debriefing at the end of an operation is 25 just as important as the briefing before it. It can be 5 1 described as being in three different stages: 2 "(a) by supervisory officers at the scene of the incident whilst 3 the details are still fresh in the mind." 4 We know there were two supervisory officers at the 5 scene, a sergeant and an inspector: 6 "(b) immediately after the event and before 7 dispersal of personnel engaged in the operation." 8 There was dispersal. One of the officers, for 9 example, was sent off to a road traffic incident, the 10 Land Rover crew were allowed home before taking their 11 statements, then they were called back in: 12 "(c) a post-incident enquiry may be held. Any 13 necessary amendments, alterations or adjustments 14 considered necessary for future events should be 15 discussed." 16 That aspect of it no doubt will need to be 17 considered under the next phase of the evidence when we 18 get to the investigative officers. 19 Then -- 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pausing there, Mr Underwood -- and this 21 may very well belong to a later part -- the existence of 22 a system of briefing and debriefing is obviously 23 important. Also what may be important is ad hoc checks 24 to see that the system is being honoured. Not in every 25 case would that be necessary, but query whether there 6 1 should be some unexpected, if you like, ad hoc 2 investigation to see on a particular occasion had things 3 worked as they should. 4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. I'm certainly proposing to call, in the 5 later stages, some very senior officers indeed up to and 6 including the Chief Constable. So that's a question 7 that can be put to a number of them. 8 Also in respect of the, as it were, transitional 9 phase from what these officers saw and did to the 10 investigative stage, falls the evidence of officer Robert 11 Atkinson, as we are now calling him, and what he saw and 12 what he did or did not pass on about Mr Hanvey. 13 He now unequivocally accepts that he did see 14 Mr Hanvey on the night and it is beyond doubt that he 15 didn't put in his notebook or a statement any record of 16 that. The question, of course, is why that is. The 17 resolution of that will touch on the events of the early 18 morning telephone call and the veracity of the evidence 19 of Ms McKee. But there are other officers who saw 20 Mr Hanvey on the night and didn't tell detectives about 21 them, in particular the sergeant whom we are now calling 22 P89, who, as we heard already, was the 23 subject of a warning from Robert Atkinson that he was a 24 martial arts expert, that that sergeant thought he was 25 going to be attacked by Mr Hanvey and he was known to him. 7 1 That sergeant did eventually make a statement -- 2 perhaps we can look at that. It is [11084]. I think we 3 have seen most of this before, but if I take up the 4 first page to start with. Made 28 December 2000. 5 Picking it up at the end of the first line: 6 "I have been asked ... if I had any conversation with 7 Robert Atkinson following the serious assault in 8 Portadown town centre on 27 April 1997 resulting in the death 9 of Robert Hamill. I can recall when I was assisting 10 police to remove the large group of people into 11 West Street, Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson was on my left 12 side within speaking distance. I think Reserve Constable 13 Silcock would have been assisting as well in our immediate 14 vicinity. 15 "There was about 40 Loyalists at this stage. There 16 was one particular individual who was very hostile. He 17 was very reluctant to move back and had to be physically 18 forced by myself by pushing him back. It was clear to 19 me that this individual was close to assaulting me. I 20 can recall Robert Atkinson saying words to the 21 effect, 'Do you know who he is? Watch him, that fellow 22 is an expert or black belt in martial arts.' He 23 mentioned the fellow's name as Hanvey but I certainly 24 didn't know him. I am unable to remember what clothing 25 this man was wearing. I have been shown a copy of the 8 1 baton report form which was completed by me in respect 2 of [that reserve constable]. [He] produced his baton to me. 3 There was nothing of any significance found on the 4 baton, although I did note the leather strap was broken. 5 I note that I have recorded Robert Atkinson struck 6 a male person on the stomach and names the person to me 7 as being Rory Robinson. I wouldn't have recalled this 8 from memory because it was so long ago. I can't recall 9 any other conversations with Robert Atkinson about 10 the incident or anybody involved in it. 11 "I have been asked if I observed 12 Robert Atkinson having a conversation with Allister Hanvey, 13 Tracey Clarke or any other persons. I don't know 14 Tracey Clarke and I only know Hanvey when he was 15 identified to me by Robert Atkinson. However, I 16 didn't see him have any in depth conversation with 17 anybody other than speaking to people in the crowd when 18 we were moving them back." 19 He goes on to talk about some others. So you may 20 think it would have been very helpful to the 21 investigation to have known that some time before 22 28 December 2000, which was well over a year after the 23 Hobson trial. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, it may be that the sergeant could 25 have given a description of clothing if this had been 9 1 known earlier. 2 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, rather than three and a half years 3 later, quite so. 4 I can give you a list of officers that I'm proposing 5 to call and what it is their evidence might go on, 6 bearing in mind that at present I'm going to have to do 7 that with ciphers. I don't know how helpful that's 8 likely to be. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: I suspect we shall be listening to quite 10 a number of officers using ciphers before this is 11 thrashed out so it may be as well just to tell us now. 12 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. I'm going to open the evidence, 13 when I do it, by playing the radio transcripts, both of 14 the police communications and the ambulance 15 communications. I'm then going to deal with the 16 communications officer, Constable Godley, 17 whose statement I will read to you. That deals with 18 some the nuances of the tapes. 19 Then I'll move on to the back-up officers. There is 20 a detective sergeant called James Harkness and he describes the 21 order in which cars arrived at the scene. If we have 22 a look at that. It is at page [03838]. Taking the 23 final paragraph: 24 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery 25 Mondeo followed within seconds by the A/Ford Sierra. Both 10 1 these vehicles parked at the junction of 2 Thomas Street/Market Street. The third vehicle, driven 3 by Constable Orr, states he drove through the crowd, 4 turned right opposite the church and drove back down the 5 town parking his vehicle at the junction of 6 Woodhouse Street/Market Street." 7 That officer is Constable Orr. As I say, there was 8 a little confusion about who was in what car and there 9 are contradictory accounts which we will have to resolve 10 when we get to the evidence. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't see the date on this document. 12 MR UNDERWOOD: That's 12 June 1997. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 14 MR UNDERWOOD: You then get a witness who is Reserve 15 constable Silcock, who may well have been the first of the 16 back-up officers on the scene, and he describes those in 17 the Land Rover being actively engaged when he attended. 18 That's Constable Neill, R/Con Cornett, P40 and Robert Atkinson. 19 This officer, Reserve Constable Silcock, identified 20 Stacey Bridgett and Rory Robinson at the scene and so 21 is going to be material to your judgment about the 22 evidence of those gentlemen. 23 Next I'm going to call Constable A. She too 24 identifies people as being in the crowd, in particular 25 Stacey Bridgett and Dean Forbes. She has them acting 11 1 aggressively and, again, that's going to go to the 2 evaluation of their evidence about what they did. 3 There is a specific issue about her, which is about 4 Wayne Lunt. She it was who detained Mr Lunt, put him in 5 the back of the Land Rover and identified him. She then 6 released him and she accepts that she was approached by 7 somebody who may well have been Mr Prunty who asked why 8 she was letting him go because he was one of those that 9 did it. And in relation to her, there is one piece of 10 criticism, which is that she did not recite that 11 accusation in her notebook or her first statement, and 12 only in May of 1997 did she mention it to anyone. 13 Next there will be Constable Adams and he identifies 14 Rory Robinson at the scene. Again, that's likely to go 15 to the assessment of Rory Robinson's evidence. 16 Then we deal with Constable Orr. He will deal with 17 Constable A's handling of Wayne Lunt. And the evidence 18 both of Constable A and that constable may well assist 19 you on whether anybody other than Wayne Lunt was ever 20 placed in the Land Rover, could have looked like 21 Wayne Lunt and could have been the subject of the 22 accusation that he was one of those that did it. 23 Finally on that subject, you will hear 24 Constable Warnock who assisted Constable A in grabbing the 25 arm of Wayne Lunt. This constable, Warnock, also goes to 12 1 two other interesting issues. Firstly, he drew a riot 2 gun and it may enable you to assess the scene, 3 when he explains why it is he felt it necessary to have 4 a riot gun. And secondly, he gave the description of 5 Mr Hanvey's clothing as including grey sleeves. Again, 6 perhaps quite an important matter. 7 We then get to Reserve Constable Murphy, who was 8 briefed to be an extra observer in the mobile support 9 vehicle, call sign JD80. No doubt we will find out when we 10 get to these witnesses whether he was in fact with that group. 11 The final back-up officer you will hear is 12 Constable Cooke. We then get to 13 a Reserve Constable Burrows, who was given security duty at 14 the police station and he will give evidence of the 15 comings and goings of other officers, including the 16 back-up vehicles passing by. 17 After that, we get to the officers in charge of the 18 scene who are Sergeant P89, whose statement we just 19 looked at, and Inspector McCrum, and the importance there 20 is, firstly, that Sergeant P89 briefed the Land Rover 21 crew for public order duties, and secondly, that these 22 were the officers who were in a position to debrief the 23 officers at the scene or, indeed, directly afterwards. 24 And they did attend, as we have seen. 25 Finally in this group of witnesses, as I say, I will 13 1 call the officers who were in the Land Rover. 2 Perhaps it would be helpful at this stage to hear 3 the radio track and then go to the communications 4 officer to explain some of it. So perhaps we could hear 5 first of all the police communications on the virtual 6 reality. 7 (Radio track played) 8 MR UNDERWOOD: Probably we will move it on to just after 9 2 o'clock. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think there is something on channel 19 11 a bit before this. 12 MR UNDERWOOD: There is. It is the checking of the 13 electoral register. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. It is just that I thought when the 15 slide was moving on, we saw yellow first and then blue. 16 MR UNDERWOOD: We did, I'm sorry. 17 (Radio track continued) 18 MR UNDERWOOD: Stop it there. We did skip over something. 19 We could go back to it by all means or we can see it in 20 transcript later. It is just some more business about 21 identifying Wayne Lunt, and the purpose of letting it 22 play that was to give you an impression when it was 23 Wayne Lunt must have been in the Land Rover and when he 24 was released. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: For myself, I would like to just hear the 14 1 first minute or couple of minutes, the first by the 2 policewoman in what is obviously a distressed voice. 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. Perhaps we could replay from 1.45 4 through to, say, 1.50. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: It may not need to be as long as that, but 6 the first remarks she made were not easy to follow and 7 then we had the transcript on the screen. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. 9 (Radio track played) 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the very first bit was on channel 19. 11 That was, I think, when the voice was saying they are 12 killing each other, or words to that effect. 13 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. Perhaps we can go back. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: It is the very beginning. 15 (Radio track played) 16 That's it, thank you very much. 17 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure whether this will be put on to 19 LiveNote, but it might be helpful to us if we could have 20 pages 1 to 7, I think all told, isn't it, as 21 a transcript? 22 MR UNDERWOOD: There is in fact a transcript. It is at 23 page [06589] of the pocket phone and there is another 24 transcript of the other channel. I'll find the numbers 25 of that for you when we come to the communications 15 1 officer's evidence. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. 3 MR UNDERWOOD: I know that Mr Adair wants to make some 4 remarks before we get into the evidence. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair? 6 Submissions by MR ADAIR 7 MR ADAIR: Thank you. Sir, just some brief comments to 8 make, sir, if I may, at this stage before the various 9 police officers whom I represent give evidence to the 10 Tribunal. 11 I want to make it absolutely clear from the outset, 12 sir, that if, during the course of these brief 13 submissions, I use the word "police", the Tribunal will 14 remember that I am representing a number of officers, 15 both uniformed and CID. I do not represent Robert Atkinson, and so 16 while that issue about Robert Atkinson has yet to be decided, if 17 I use the word "police", I'm not referring to any action 18 or inaction on the part of Robert Atkinson. And I want to make that 19 absolutely clear for the record, sir. 20 Now, you have heard, sir, from my learned friend 21 just now that this Tribunal has been set up and was set 22 up as a result of a history of allegations that were 23 made against the police, if I may use the generic term 24 just for the moment. Initially, those allegations 25 centred on the actions or inactions of the various 16 1 officers in the Land Rover. And the Panel will be very 2 much aware that over the years, getting back to 1997, 3 the allegations have been aired both in local press, in 4 national press and, of course, have been aired in the 5 United States of America with congressmen, have been 6 aired at committees at Westminster and have been the 7 subject of various articles by various interested 8 groups, if I may put it that way. And various interest 9 groups have made allegations against the various 10 officers whom I represent over the years. 11 They have all had the luxury of access to American 12 congressmen, to Westminster committees, the media and to 13 the publication of articles, unlike those officers whom 14 I represent, who, as very often -- and one can draw 15 analogies with other situations -- have been the silent 16 ones. They have not had the opportunity until now, 17 ironically, because of this Inquiry being set up, to 18 answer these allegations and to let the public know what 19 their side of the story is. 20 They have been the brunt over the past 12 years of 21 a series of allegations, some serious, some extremely 22 serious and others implying oversight, over these past 23 12 years, and nobody has listened so far to their side 24 of this awful event. 25 Now, ironically their only involvement in the 17 1 investigations to date has been their interview and 2 re-interview by various internal disciplinary or 3 potentially criminal investigations. And you may have 4 seen -- I'm not aware, sir, as to whether you have read 5 or have seen some of the Inquiry statements made by the 6 various officers, but can I say this, sir: if a sense 7 of grievance is demonstrated from time to time by any of 8 these officers, I want to make it absolutely clear that 9 as far as they are concerned -- and I ask the Panel to 10 bear this in mind; the reason I'm mentioning this at 11 this stage is so that when you are assessing them you 12 are aware of this -- any grievance they bear is not 13 towards the Hamill family. 14 Each and every one, so far as I'm aware, can 15 understand why the Hamill family have pursued the course 16 of action that they have. Whether they would agree with 17 precisely the way in which it was pursued is another 18 matter, but the grievance is not against the Hamill 19 family. But as part of this Inquiry, sir, you will be 20 hearing evidence, for example, from Superintendent 21 Kennedy, who conducted a 22 series of interviews with these officers in 2000/2001, and 23 ou will hear, sir -- and you will see in due course -- 24 that a series of blanket allegations were made against 25 these officers by that superintendent during the course of 18 1 that inquiry. Some of them, we will be submitting, were 2 outrageous allegations that were put to them and were 3 blanket allegations put to these officers in order to 4 enable them to interview not based on any fact, not 5 based on any evidence. And their grievance ironically, 6 sir, if it comes over, is with the way they have treated 7 in the intervening years by that investigation as 8 opposed to the fact that they are the subject of 9 scrutiny by this Inquiry. 10 Now, I'm not going to go into detail at this stage 11 because this is just, as I said, a brief opening 12 submission to you about this. But what I'm saying to 13 the Panel is this: when we are looking at these officers 14 and whatever sense of grievance they may express, what 15 I ask you to bear in mind, sir, is that very many of 16 these officers have served in the RUC for a lifetime. 17 They have impeccable records of service to this 18 community, they have been shot at, they have been abused 19 by both Protestants and Catholics, family members have 20 been murdered. And their grievance, sir, stems from the 21 fact that having done that over the years, they are 22 treated the way they were by this investigation -- not 23 this Inquiry, but by the internal investigation and the 24 way that allegations were made about their integrity 25 having served this community for a lifetime. And that's 19 1 very much where very much of their grievance lies. 2 Now, as I say, it is not directed towards this 3 Inquiry attempting to find out the truth of what 4 happened to Robert Hamill. 5 Now, as I said, sir, these people have been the 6 silent and -- I use the word in the -- again, it is 7 perhaps not an appropriate word -- but they have been 8 the silent victims in a sense of the allegations being 9 publicly aired over the years without recourse to any 10 reply. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Whipping boys, you might ... 12 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir. They now will get their opportunity to 13 tell this Inquiry their account of what happened. 14 Now, some of the allegations that have made over the 15 years have ranged, as I say, from oversight to perhaps 16 the most serious allegation, that has been made either 17 directly or by innuendo, that any action or inaction on 18 the part of these police officers was because 19 Robert Hamill was a Catholic. 20 Now, it may be -- and time will tell -- that during 21 the course of this Inquiry that suggestion will not be 22 put to any of the officers whom I represent. I don't 23 know. And obviously everybody involved in this tribunal 24 has got their own role to play, and no doubt so far, if 25 I might venture to say, any of the allegations that have 20 1 been put to various witnesses have been based on proper 2 grounds. 3 I would like to think, sir -- and I'm saying this 4 at the outset before these officers give any evidence -- 5 that if there is any allegation to be made against any 6 one of those officers whom I represent that any of their 7 actions or inactions was based on the fact that 8 Robert Hamill was a Catholic, that that is put to them 9 and based on some evidence, whether circumstantial or 10 direct. 11 I appreciate that one can, on the basis of 12 circumstantial evidence, suggest something which isn't 13 directly evidenced by fact. But I would like to think, 14 sir, that that's just about as serious an allegation as 15 one can make against a serving police officer in this 16 community, as you will appreciate now, sir. And again, 17 it may not come to pass, but if there is to be an 18 allegation made against any of those whom I represent 19 that their actions or inactions were more than just an 20 oversight but was motivated by the fact that 21 Robert Hamill was a Catholic, then I would like to 22 think, sir, that the Panel will ask the questioner on 23 what evidential basis that suggestion is made, because 24 as I say, it is just about as serious an allegation as 25 one can make against a serving officer or retired 21 1 officer in this community. 2 And can say this, sir? I have no difficulty 3 whatsoever with any of those officers for whom I appear 4 being asked about their previous or post experience with 5 the RUC or PSNI in dealing with criminal matters. For 6 example, we know that during the course of this Inquiry 7 and during the course of some of the applications made 8 by Mr McGrory, for example, to introduce criminal 9 records, that we have discussed, well, character can be 10 relevant to propensity, for example. One's attitude can 11 be relevant. For example, if one was at Drumcree it 12 might be that that is relevant to other matters. 13 If there is anything in any of these police 14 officers' history, either pre- or post April 1997, that 15 in any way suggests that predisposition to treat 16 Catholics in a different way than Protestants, then I'm 17 happy that it is brought out. If one wants to see or if 18 the Inquiry wants to see or anybody else wants to see 19 their personnel records, their history of prosecution of 20 Catholics and Protestants, the way they have treated 21 case after case after case on the basis of equality as 22 opposed to sectarianism, then I'm content that they will 23 see it. Because if I'm right in submitting that there 24 is nothing in any of those officers for whom I represent 25 to suggest one scintilla of sectarianism, then it begs 22 1 the question why did they pick out this one particular 2 incident to treat the Catholic, as is suggested, in the 3 way they did. 4 Can I say this also, sir, in relation to a number of 5 the officers for whom I appear? I trust that the 6 Tribunal will accept it. If I, as counsel, for 7 example -- although I appear and represent all these 8 officers, in my role as, I suppose, as an officer of the 9 court, as an officer to this tribunal, if I think -- and 10 if I'm asked the question whether this should be done or 11 that should have been done in hindsight, I would like to 12 think, sir, I will answer the question honestly and to 13 the best of my ability as assisting whatever enquiries 14 are being made. And it may be -- I'm not going to 15 pre-judge the evidence -- that one or other, or perhaps 16 more, of the officers will accept that in hindsight in 17 the perfect world something should have been done or not 18 done. But that's quite a different matter as to whether 19 it was an oversight, whether it was negligent, whether 20 it was culpably negligent, whether it was grossly 21 negligent. It is quite different than the motivation 22 aspect, and as I say, it is the motivation aspect that 23 I'm really addressing at this stage. 24 For example, I have yet to meet the perfect lawyer. 25 I have met deluded lawyers who think they are perfect. 23 1 I have yet to meet a lawyer who -- I can only go from my 2 own experience -- who, if asked, "Should you have called 3 that witness?" "Well, maybe I should." "Should you 4 have consulted with that witness a bit earlier?" "Maybe 5 I should". "Should you have asked that question?" "No, 6 I shouldn't, what a mug." I keep it under review 7 constantly, whether there is a perfect lawyer, but to 8 date I have not found one. And I think it is important 9 that when we are looking at the actions of police 10 officers involved in this type of scene, with what they 11 were going through in 1997, that one doesn't judge it in 12 the calm, studied perfection of this tribunal but looks 13 at it and assesses it in the real world, if I can just 14 put it that way, sir. 15 So I would say: let's not think that there is 16 perfection and there may well have been things done that 17 shouldn't have been done and things not done that should 18 have been done. But I'm just asking the Tribunal to 19 bear in mind that it really brings to mind that the 20 phrase "detached reflection cannot be expected in the 21 presence of an uplifted knife." One has to look at the 22 thing in reality, as opposed to the calmness of this 23 tribunal. 24 So that's all I want to say at this stage, sir, in 25 relation to the witnesses for whom I appear. 24 1 Can I say this just while I'm on my feet, and I 2 think the issue may arise today, so that's why I'm 3 mentioning it, sir, at this stage: some of the witnesses 4 for whom I appear have already been granted, pre the 5 temporary rulings, both anonymity and screening. Now, 6 I'm subject to the Tribunal really in this, but that of 7 course will exclude all from the Tribunal, including the 8 Hamill family who, as you know, I have already indicated 9 I have no difficulty in appearing in relation to the 10 temporary situation. 11 I'm prepared, if the Tribunal thinks it appropriate, 12 to take instructions from each of the people for whom 13 I appear who have been granted the full anonymity and 14 screening, that the Hamill family also be allowed in for 15 their evidence. That will be a matter for you, sir, as 16 to whether you think that's appropriate because you made 17 the order. But I'm prepared, if you think it 18 appropriate, to ask each one of them to allow that to 19 occur and then you can amend the order if you think it 20 is appropriate. I thought I would mention it at this 21 stage because it will arise fairly quickly today. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Just help me about this: on the question of 23 motive or attitude, could you object to a question which 24 is not making a suggestion but enquiring? 25 MR ADAIR: No, sir. 25 1 THE CHAIRMAN: About a person's attitude? 2 MR ADAIR: I have already spoken to Mr Underwood about that 3 this morning. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: What's your reaction to this particular part 5 of the population, for instance. It is simply 6 a question, not suggesting the answer. 7 MR ADAIR: I have no difficulty with that at all, sir. 8 Thank you very much. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood? 10 MR UNDERWOOD: That's helpful. I wonder, while we are still 11 in fully open session, whether I should play the 12 ambulance transcript? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I had forgotten about that. 14 MR UNDERWOOD: It is my fault. I knew my friend wanted to 15 make some opening remarks and I should have let him do 16 it earlier. Perhaps we can go to the ambulance 17 transmission now. 18 (Ambulance transmission played) 19 That is it. [06581] [06582] 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: As I say, I propose next to go to the 22 statement of the communications officer. That has not 23 been redacted. So I regret that we are going to have to 24 go into the screened session in order to see that. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: You are suggesting -- yes, I see -- in other 26 1 words, the screen should be cut off from the public? 2 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And the press? 4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we need to rise for that? 6 MR UNDERWOOD: I think we probably do. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: How long? 8 MR UNDERWOOD: About 10 minutes. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 minutes, thank you. We shall make it 10 15 minutes. That will give the shorthand writers the 11 break. 12 (11.52 am) 13 (Short break) 14 (12.15 pm) 15 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, those audio tapes are not easy to follow 16 even with the two channels imposed on one. So can I, in 17 order to get some more assistance, take to you the 18 witness statement of the communications officer? 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 20 MR UNDERWOOD: We find it at [80320]. This officer is 21 Constable Godley. We have already seen his 22 name on the tapes because he was the man at the station 23 fielding the radio calls. If we look at paragraph 7 24 onwards, over the page, I need to read about four or 25 five pages of this. Paragraph 7: 27 1 "I have been asked to explain how the radio system 2 in the Communications Room worked. Messages were sent 3 over two channels: channel 19 and channel 37. The 4 vehicle-mounted radios transmitted over channel 19, and the 5 pocket phones worn by officers transmitted over 6 channel 37. Both channels were used in the 7 Communications Room simultaneously. 8 When an officer radioed a message in, they would 9 use a call sign and so if the officer used the wrong 10 call sign, it was not immediately possible to tell 11 whether the call was from a vehicle or someone on the beat. 12 "An officer on the beat would not have been able 13 to hear a conversation transmitted on channel 19. Only 14 vehicles with vehicle-mounted radios in the area tuned 15 to that channel and possibly MSU vehicles in the area 16 would have been able to hear conversations using that 17 channel too. Channel 19 was used by J division and 18 other areas would use different frequencies to avoid 19 overcrowding. 20 "The only people who could hear channel 37 would be 21 those with a pocket phone tuned to that frequency and 22 who were within a couple of kilometres of the base 23 station. These phones would have weak spots where they 24 simply did not work, as is the case with mobile 25 telephones. 28 1 "I first became aware of the fight that was 2 happening in Portadown town centre when I heard 3 screaming coming over the radio at about 01:45. The 4 transcript of channel 37 is contained at pages 10521 to 5 10532 and the transcript of channel 19 is at pages ..." 6 This should be: 7 "... 10534 to 10591. At 01:45.37, I heard over 8 channel 19, 'We need back-up over in the town'. This is 9 on the transcript contained at page 10536. 10 "My recollection of the message was hearing Reserve Constable 11 Denise Cornett literally screaming over the 12 network. I knew it was Reserve Constable Cornett because 13 I recognised her voice. She was screaming something like 14 'They're killing one another'." 15 I should point out that that's not on the tape, it 16 is not on the transcript we have seen, including the 17 transcripts exhibited to this witness statement: 18 "At that stage we realised that there was something 19 horribly wrong in the town centre. With hindsight, it 20 was perhaps unfortunate for her to use the phrase, 21 'They're killing one another' because she simply meant 22 there was a bad fracas in the town centre. It 23 took a few seconds to finally get clearly from 24 Reserve Constable Cornett that she needed back-up. I was 25 confused because Reserve Constable Cornett was using the 29 1 call signs 80 and 81 which would, in theory, have been 2 on channel 19. There was a different call sign for the 3 pocket phone. So I was responding on one channel while 4 she was getting very confused tying to reply to me on 5 the other." 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pausing there, Mr Underwood, does that 7 mean that when she was using 19, they were talking as 8 though she was using 37? She could hear on 19 something 9 which was being sent out -- sorry, she could hear on 37 10 something which was being sent out on 19? 11 MR UNDERWOOD: No, she couldn't hear it. What this officer 12 is saying is because -- I presume he couldn't 13 distinguish between the bands he was listening to and 14 all he could tell was, from the call sign, which band it 15 should have been on. So he was transmitting back on the 16 band he assumed she was transmitting from because she 17 had given the call sign, and of course she couldn't hear 18 it because she was using the wrong frequency. 19 SIR JOHN EVANS: Channel 19 would be VHF, while 37 would be 20 UHF. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: And he goes on: 22 "Reserve Constable Cornett was wrong to use the call 23 sign 80 at all. Vehicles with call signs in the 80s 24 were Land Rovers and those in 70s were patrol cars. 70 25 would have been the number one response vehicle and 80 30 1 would have been the duty section's Land Rover. If there 2 was a supplementary Land Rover for back-up it was 81. 3 The call sign, therefore, does not refer to a specific 4 vehicle, but to a crew in a particular role. I was in 5 81 until midnight, but I think Reserve Constable Cornett was 6 in 80, which was the duty Land Rover. 7 At midnight we were swapped over, so 8 Reserve Constable Cornett was now in the supplementary 9 section working for a further four hours as back-up. 10 Her call sign would, therefore, have become 81. It was 11 because we recognised her voice and knew she had been 80 12 earlier that we realised that she was in fact 81 and in 13 the town centre. 14 "As can be seen on the transcript contained at 15 page 10522, at 01:46.15 Reserve Constable Cornett came in 16 on channel 37 finally saying, 'Juliet delta from 81, we 17 need back-up urgently in the town'. I was in a position 18 to respond, 'There are other vehicles. They are already 19 on their way.' Vehicles had already been dispatched 20 because they had heard Reserve Constable Cornett panicking 21 over the radio. At 01:46.15, just before 22 Reserve Constable Cornett requested back-up, Reserve 23 Constable ..." 24 This should be Warnock: 25 "... had transmitted, 'En route, en route. Be with 31 1 you shortly.' At 01:48, Reserve Constable Cornett came back 2 on and said, 'JD from 81, we need a couple of 3 ambulances, over.' I see the transcript at page 10524 4 states that I replied, 'Roger, ambulances, two victims, 5 over'. Looking at the transcript again, I think 6 I actually just said, 'Roger' and then either Constable 7 Neill or Reserve Constable Silcock came on their pocket 8 phone and said, 'Two ambulances, two victims'. I must have 9 got that wrong on the transcription because I would not 10 have known that there were two victims." 11 I should point out I think what I said originally in 12 opening is that the version we have got up on the 13 screens is a transcription which has been done by us. 14 It is the best we can make it. It may differ slightly 15 from the transcript that is attached to the exhibits to 16 this. 17 At paragraph 15, this officer goes: 18 "I cannot say exactly when the request for an 19 ambulance went out to ambulance control. My 20 recollection is that it was fairly obvious from the 21 noise and what was happening on the street that there 22 was a good possibility that we were going to have 23 casualties, so I would have dialled through to 24 Ambulance Control, which would have taken a few seconds. 25 I am in a position to say that the ambulances were on 32 1 their way by 01:49 because I transmitted, 'Roger, they 2 are en route, over'. At the moment when I called 3 Ambulance Control I would not have been able to talk to 4 people on the radio for a few moments, but that was the 5 norm. It was just a case of prioritising the tasks. 6 It is clear from the transcripts that I was not 7 told at any stage about the nature of the injuries that 8 had been sustained. 9 "At 01:49.18, Reserve Constable ..." 10 Sorry, I should have been able to pick up his -- 11 Silcock: 12 "... came on channel 37 and asked, 'Have you tasked 13 the ambulance, over?' Reserve Constable Silcock was in the 14 same vehicle as ..." 15 This should be Constable Porter: 16 "... and was giving the call sign Juliet Bravo 70, which 17 would have been a patrol car. Reserve Constable Warnock then 18 said, 'See can you get some more, over'. 19 Reserve Constable Warnock was giving the call sign Juliet 20 Bravo 80, which was a different vehicle. 21 "I am reasonably certain that 22 Reserve Constable Silcock's crew was the first to arrive at 23 the scene as back-up, but there were a number of people 24 talking over each other so it was difficult to work out 25 who got there first. 33 1 At 01:46.15 in the transcript at page 15023, 2 Reserve Constable Warnock transmitted, 'We're at 3 Guildford Road roundabout and we're going as quick as 4 we can' but I do not know exactly when his vehicle arrived. 5 "It is clear from the transcript that both 6 crews were there at 01:49, some four minutes after 7 Reserve Constable Cornett initially asked for assistance. 8 Portadown town centre had barriers at that time and 9 so it was not possible to drive straight up the street. 10 Crews had to drive around the town and get into the town 11 centre via the police station." 12 That is up Edward Street: 13 "Just before 01:55, I received a transmission from 14 Constable A. As can be seen from page 10525 of the 15 transcript, she said at 01:55, 'Roger, will you check 16 your electoral register for a Wayne Lunt?' I knew 17 of Wayne Lunt and his family because I had had some 18 dealings with him relating to public order, family rows 19 and incidents on the estates. I have been asked whether 20 I was aware that Wayne Lunt had been arrested a few 21 weeks before at the Esso garage. I did not know anything 22 about that incident. 23 "When I checked the register for the address 24 Constable A had given me, I replied, 'There is nobody 25 listed at xxxxxxxxxx, over'. At 02:00.54, Constable A 34 1 asked me, 'Roger, any luck on [address redacted]'. 2 I replied, 'Sounds about right, wait one' and then I said, 3 'They used to live on [another address] but I am under 4 the impression they have moved out [another address] or 5 somewhere'. Constable Adams in JB70 might be able to help you 6 on that one, over. I was referring to 7 Reserve Constable Adams who was a member of another crew. 8 He had had more recent dealings with Wayne Lunt than I 9 had. 10 Constable A then transmitted, 'Roger, that's okay. 11 Constable Adams has cleared it with me.' Reserve Constable 12 Adams was bviously at the scene and confirmed Wayne's 13 identity for her. 14 "In the statement I gave on 20 August 2001, 15 contained at page 17268, I said 'I was aware that 16 Constable A from my own station at one time detained 17 Wayne Lunt because I'd carried out an address check 18 for her.' I knew this from the exchange I had with 19 Constable A on the radio. 20 "Later that night, Inspector McCrum directed me to get 21 the officers who had been on duty at the scene to come 22 back to the station because the situation had become a 23 lot more serious. Sergeant P89 or Inspector McCrum had 24 found out that Robert Hamill was in a far more serious 25 condition than was originally thought. I believe they 35 1 had either been to the hospital or been in contact with 2 it. 3 Because the incident seemed a lot more serious, we 4 requested CID and we needed more information about what 5 had happened because Headquarters would have to be informed. 6 "When the crews went off duty, they would have 7 come into the station, signed their radios in and in 8 doing so they would probably have talked a little bit 9 about the incident to me. They then would have gone 10 upstairs to write up the accounts book to make sure that 11 the full details were there, and they would have talked 12 to the Inspector and the Sergeant. I do not remember 13 having any conversation with anyone about what had happened. 14 "I know that PC Neill says that I spoke to him at 15 about 08:00 and that I passed the telephone to 16 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson during the call. I was asked 17 about this in my interview with DCI K and I refer to it 18 in my statement of 23 August 2001 at page numbers 19 17268 to 17270. 20 By 08:00, I was back in civilian clothes and was in 21 the process of leaving at the end of my shift. I had 22 telephoned PC Neill earlier to call him back in, but he 23 had not arrived. I said I would telephone him again 24 before I left because I had the number to hand. I do 25 not know exactly why PC Neill had not come in when asked 36 1 to, but I will give him the benefit the doubt and say he 2 had just fallen asleep." 3 That is in fact the account that he will give you, 4 that he was at the end of his long shift, gone home, 5 fallen asleep, had the phone call, fell back asleep and 6 had to be rung again: 7 "I do remember that Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson was the 8 first officer to come back into the station, but I do 9 not remember passing the telephone to him to speak to 10 PC Neill. However, if PC Neill says that I did, then all I 11 can say is that I did. I assume that calling PC Neill 12 was the last thing I did before leaving the station." 13 Finally at paragraph 25: 14 "I am sure I must have spoken to 15 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson about the incident when he came 16 into the station, but we would not have had a great deal 17 of information. He would have known more about it than 18 I did. I have been asked whether I socialised with 19 Reserve Constable Robert Atkinson outside work. I did not, and I 20 was not a member of the Tae Kwon Do club in Portadown." 21 So until we get the officers who made the radio 22 transmissions in, that's the best we can do about 23 understanding the framework of it. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Just going back to the final sentence of 25 paragraph 11, I was confused by the last words: 37 1 "... trying to reply to me on the other." 2 I think it would be: 3 "... speak to me on the other." 4 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Because of course you couldn't reply if she 6 couldn't hear what was being said to her. 7 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. So I'm going to call now Reserve Constable Silcock. 8 GODFREY DEAN SILCOCK (sworn) 9 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD 10 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the 11 Inquiry. I will ask questions to start with. I'm not going 12 to ask you your full names. What I'm going to ask you 13 to do is have a look at the statement on the screen and 14 identify whether it is yours, please. It is at 15 page [81159]. 16 Can I first of all ask you whether the name at the 17 top is yours? 18 A. That's correct, yes. 19 Q. If we can go through the pages of this fairly briefly -- 20 there is about seven of them, I think. Is that your 21 statement? 22 A. That's my statement. 23 Q. Is it true? 24 A. Yes, it's true. 25 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to ask you to recite all of 38 1 the evidence in this. What I want to do is take you to 2 some paragraphs and ask you to elaborate and explain 3 a little, if you would. 4 Could we start with page [81159], paragraph 3. You 5 tell us in the first line who you were detailed with and 6 we will be able to help you -- I should just make sure 7 that before we go any further I have somebody sitting 8 next to you with a cipher list. Are you content to -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Thank you. You tell us who you were detailed with there 11 on mobile patrol. Can you tell us what your call sign 12 was? 13 A. JD70. 14 Q. Does that mean you were not a Land Rover? 15 A. No, that means we were in a saloon car. 16 Q. We know there was a Mondeo and we know there was another 17 saloon car. Do you recall what type of saloon car it 18 was? 19 A. I don't, no. 20 Q. Okay. Can you recall whether it was liveried? 21 A. I can't recall. 22 Q. Okay. In the final three lines or so of that you tell 23 us you drove into town via Bridge Street and then into 24 Market Street. Did you have to go through a barrier to 25 do that? 39 1 A. There was barriers at that time but they would have been 2 opened. 3 Q. At Bridge Street? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Because we know that at least two vehicles that were 6 back-up vehicles came up Edward Street and we have an 7 officer who opened the barriers in Edward Street for 8 them -- 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. -- but we don't know whether yours was one of those. 11 You say not? 12 A. No, the barrier would have been open. It was a main 13 arterial barrier. 14 Q. Then if we go over the page to [81160], you tell us at 15 the top: 16 "When we arrived at the scene there was a large 17 number of people who appeared to be hostile. I estimate 18 there were about 60 civilians and four police officers. I saw two 19 men lying on the ground and there were women with them." 20 Now, could we have a look at a model, our standard 21 model, and see if you can help us with identifying that. 22 I don't know whether you have seen this before, have 23 you, officer? 24 A. No, I haven't. 25 Q. This is taken from a series of photographs and the 40 1 photographer in every case was standing just outside 2 Eastwoods clothing, if you recall where that was, the 3 top of Thomas Street? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Let me rotate this through 360 degrees for you so you 6 can familiarise yourself with it. Looking down 7 Thomas Street. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This is Eastwoods, here looking up towards the church 10 and West Street. If we stop it there, can you help us 11 with where you saw the civilians, in which sort of area? 12 A. The civilians would have been on -- looking towards the 13 church, left-hand side of the street. One was near 14 where Eastwoods would be and the other was further up 15 towards the church. 16 Q. Are you able to mark on this for us -- you know we have 17 the facility to draw to this screen and if we just give 18 that you facility, which will take a moment. (Pause) 19 Right. You have the control of this now. 20 A. How exactly do I pan round towards the church? 21 Q. Let's come out of this screen shot then and pan it round 22 to the left. Tell us where to stop. Is that all right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Again, we need to make this a screen shot so you can 25 have control of ... 41 1 A. From roughly -- 2 Q. Hold on a second. You don't have control yet. Right? 3 A. Okay, from memory one approximately there and one 4 slightly up a bit. 5 Q. Right. And we will call the one near to us number 1 and 6 the one further away number 2. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And to leap ahead, I know that eventually one of these 9 became known to you as Mr Hamill? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Which one was Mr Hamill: number 1 or number 2? 12 A. From memory, number 2. 13 Q. Okay. And you have described the crowd of -- what you 14 said is a large number of people who appeared to be 15 hostile, about 60 of them and four police officers. 16 Relative to these people on the ground, where was the 17 crowd and where were the police officers? 18 A. The police officers would have been -- the police 19 officers were basically over the show, the four police 20 officers, when I arrived. The crowd were all around 21 near where the two people were lying and quite -- round 22 the show as well. It wasn't just compact. There was 23 quite a few all over the place, milling all over the 24 place. 25 Q. What was the interaction, if any, between the crowd and 42 1 the two people on the ground? Was the crowd trying get 2 at them? Was it ignoring them? 3 A. They weren't ignoring them, there was people around 4 them. I personally didn't see anyone assaulting the two 5 people on the ground, but there was fairly large vocal, 6 intent body language, which showed there was a lot of 7 aggression. 8 Q. Towards the men on the ground? 9 A. Towards the men on the ground and people listening, yes. 10 Q. Help us if you can about what the police officers were 11 doing. You said they were all over the shop? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were they attempting to control the crowd, in your view? 14 A. In my view they were, yes. 15 Q. Did they have anything to do with the men on the ground? 16 Were they attempting to protect them, were they fending 17 people off, were they trying to stop fights? 18 A. My recollection is they were trying to break up the 19 crowd, basically break up the crowd and try and keep 20 some sort of control and order. 21 Q. Now, we know that there were Catholics and there were 22 Protestants and they may have been fighting, or that one 23 side may have been attacking the other. Was it as neat 24 as that when you arrived and looked at it? Could you 25 tell who was who? 43 1 A. Personally my assumptions were that the ones on the 2 ground and the men with them, the small number, were 3 from -- Roman Catholic and the crowd were Protestant. 4 Q. Can you help us with what gave you that impression? 5 A. One, history; that Portadown is predominantly a 6 Protestant area; two, there has been loads of fracas 7 before and fights before in Portadown and it was just an 8 assumption I made at that time, my own thinking. 9 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [11051]. This is 10 a statement of somebody we are calling [Constable Adams] at the 11 moment. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it was made on 27 April 1997 and he, of course, was 14 the officer you were with, I think? 15 A. That's correct, yes. 16 Q. And if we look about four lines down in this, five lines 17 down, he says in the middle of a line: 18 "On entering the town centre from Edward Street, 19 I observed a crowd of around 30 persons, both male and 20 female, in the area of Thomas Street where it joins 21 Market Street and High Street. On approaching this 22 point, I further observed that the police at the scene 23 were attempting to keep rival persons apart..." 24 So his view of it -- of course, we will hear from 25 him -- is that police, rather than trying break up 44 1 individual fights or randomly being around, were 2 directing themselves to keeping two rival factions 3 apart. Your impression is it wasn't that 4 straightforward? 5 A. My impression is they were trying to keep a bit of order 6 within that, yes. 7 Q. Okay. And if we go back to your statement, 8 page [81160], paragraph 5, you say: 9 "The four police officers were running around trying 10 to keep the crowd away from the men on the ground, and I 11 think some had their batons drawn." 12 Is that still your recollection? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. If we go down to paragraph 6, you say you saw 15 a police Land Rover marked at the position you have 16 marked on the map, and again, I'm sorry to leap about, 17 but can we go back to the model and go round to the 18 right. We have placed the Land Rover there. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You can see that's in the mouth of Edward Street, parked 21 at an angle more over to the right-hand side than the 22 left-hand side. And the purpose of putting it there is 23 to see what witnesses say about that. Don't take it 24 because it is there that that is necessarily anybody 25 else's evidence. How does that square with your 45 1 recollection? 2 A. My recollection will be it would be further down, but I 3 can't say. 4 Q. Right. Going back to your -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: That's to the right in the photograph as you 6 look at it? 7 A. Yes, towards -- away from the church end. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 9 MR UNDERWOOD: Outside the Halifax or even further to the 10 right? 11 A. Just -- 12 Q. We can pan it round to the right, obviously. 13 A. Please, yes. My recollection would be round about the 14 Halifax, just at the far end of the Halifax. 15 Q. So right-hand side of the Halifax? 16 A. Round about, yes. 17 Q. Okay. If we could go back to the your statement, 18 please, at [81161], paragraph 8, the second half of 19 this, you say: 20 "During the fracas, there were about 30 people near 21 Mr D. At one point they were about two to three feet 22 away. I had to take out my baton and physically push 23 the crowd back. I could hear people in the crowd 24 saying, 'I hope they die' but I did not see anyone trying 25 to attack Mr D whilst he lay on the ground." 46 1 So you have got 50 or 60 people in general spread 2 about, as you said. You have got officers doing -- only 3 four of them -- doing their best to keep some sort of 4 order, two men on the ground and you said from what the 5 crowd were saying and their body language there was 6 a lot of aggression towards the man on the ground. Did 7 you have to take your baton out and physically push the 8 crowd back in order to stop them attacking them, or 9 what? 10 A. When I was there, they were getting rather close to the 11 two people on the ground and their demeanour, et cetera, 12 showed that they were quite aggressive. I took my baton 13 out and actually physically pushed. I never struck 14 anyone with my baton, but physically pushed them. 15 Q. Were other officers helping you with that? 16 A. I can't honestly remember. 17 Q. Were you successful in keeping them away? 18 A. I believe I was, yes -- yes. 19 Q. If we go down to paragraph 9, you tell us in the third 20 sentence that you are trained in first aid and you put 21 your hand on Mr Hamill's back to turn him over into the 22 recovery position. And you say: 23 "It was clear to me from the vibration I felt in his 24 back as I moved him that he was definitely having 25 difficulty breathing." 47 1 Can you expand on that for us about the state he was 2 in? 3 A. The state he was in, he appeared to be unconscious. 4 There was people with him. I tried to get him into the 5 recovery position as best I could. As I put my hand up 6 his back, I felt vibration from his breathing showing he 7 had strained breathing, he had difficulty breathing, 8 which concerned me. I tried to put him in the recovery 9 position, checked round his head and stuff. There was 10 no glass or anything like that, and I checked his mouth 11 to make sure there was nothing blocking his breathing. 12 Q. I know it is a long time ago and this is very fine 13 detail I'm asking you about. If I push you too far in 14 trying to recall detail, tell me. Could the difficulty 15 in breathing have been discerned without putting your 16 hand on his back, do you think? 17 A. I suppose if you looked at him long enough you might 18 have, but -- I don't know. I don't honestly know. 19 Q. All right. If we turn over to page [81162], you are 20 dealing here with Rory Robinson and Stacey Bridgett. 21 The top paragraph deals with Rory Robinson, and you say 22 in that, second sentence: 23 "I am unable to say if Rory Robinson shouted actually 24 those words ..." 25 That's, "I hope they die": 48 1 "... but I recall that he was in a very aggressive 2 state in that he was shouting and his body was tensed up 3 and his eyes were wild looking." 4 You talk about the body language and verbal abuse. 5 How clear are you that Rory Robinson was a participant 6 in the aggressive crowd? 7 A. He was there, he was shouting. I was close up, 8 obviously, to see, and from seeing his demeanour and 9 everything else, but I know he was at that scene. 10 Q. And if we go down to paragraph 11, you tell us there 11 about a woman wearing a white top pointing out a youth 12 in the crowd and an allegation that he had jumped on the 13 head of Robert Hamill. And you say you looked over at 14 him: 15 "He was smaller than Rory Robinson and was wearing a grey 16 tracksuit top." 17 You can hear people calling him Stacey. You saw him 18 react to that by turning around and he had blood coming 19 from his nose. And you say that you were close enough 20 to see from his eyes that he was excited. 21 If you had had the opportunity, would you have 22 arrested him? 23 A. If I had had the opportunity, I like to think I would 24 have. 25 Q. That's not a critical question. 49 1 A. Unfortunately, the opportunity wasn't there and the 2 circumstances didn't dictate it. 3 Q. But that was sufficient for you to have reason to 4 believe that he had committed an offence, was it? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And is the same true of Robinson? 7 A. In that would I have arrested him? 8 Q. If you had had the chance, yes, from what you saw him 9 doing? 10 A. I don't know on Robinson -- 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. -- to be honest. 13 Q. If we go over the page to page [81163], at paragraph 15 14 you tell us in the final couple of sentences: 15 "At that stage I do not think that I had been 16 trained in scene preservation." 17 You go on to say you don't recall any instructions 18 being given to you to preserve the scene. Can I just 19 get you to look at what appears to be your training 20 record, [72554]? This record -- you don't need to go 21 through it, just take it from me for the moment -- shows 22 that there was no training in scene preservation. Can 23 you just confirm it is your record print? 24 A. It appears to be, yes. 25 Q. Thank you. Then if we go to page [81165] -- this is 50 1 back in your statement -- at the top couple of lines you 2 talk about your witness statement made on 27 April, and 3 you say: 4 "Once I was finished, I think ..." 5 It goes on: 6 "... I handed my statement to Detective Sergeant 7 ..." 8 And it gives a name there. It is [DS Lawther] we are calling 9 him. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are you clear about that because he has told us he 12 wasn't back into the station until 28 April? 13 A. I thought at that time I had handed it to that person. 14 Q. Okay. Right. I just want to ask some general questions 15 of you now. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: You say: 17 "Once I was finished, I think I discussed it with 18 anyone." 19 Is it: 20 "... I don't think I discussed it with anyone." 21 Or: 22 "... I discussed it with anyone who would listen"? 23 A. No, I don't think I discussed it with anyone. I didn't 24 discuss it with anyone. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 51 1 MR UNDERWOOD: I just want to ask you some general questions 2 that I'm going to ask officers who attended the scene. 3 Did anything you did or failed to do on that night 4 have anything to do with your attitude towards 5 Catholics? 6 A. Totally not. 7 Q. Did you see any individual involved in a fight or any 8 sectarian activity and then fail to report it to 9 detectives? 10 A. No, not that I recall. 11 Q. Did you pull any person who was kicking Mr Hamill off 12 him? 13 A. Not that I recall. 14 Q. The closest you came to that was that you had your baton 15 out -- 16 A. Yes, pushing -- 17 Q. Didn't use it and that was to keep people from being 18 close. Is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Finally, we have heard evidence from a witness who says 21 that he had, on more than one occasion, seen fighting in 22 the town centre and he had seen a police Land Rover 23 present at the fighting and the police didn't get out of 24 the Land Rover -- not on this occasion, on other 25 occasions, and to be fair, he said those fights didn't 52 1 generally result in serious injury. Did you have any 2 experience of seeing or being in a Land Rover when 3 fighting was going on in the town centre and police not 4 getting out? 5 A. No. 6 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well, thank you very much. Other people 7 may have some questions for you. 8 Questions by MR FERGUSON 9 MR FERGUSON: When you arrived at the scene, what you saw 10 was a crowd of about 60 civilians. Is that right? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And four police officers? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And four police officers trying to deal with the 15 civilians? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Of course, when you arrived, it would not have been 18 apparent to you certainly immediately that the two 19 bodies on the ground -- whether they were Loyalist or 20 Nationalist or what they were? 21 A. Did you mean did I know straight away if they were 22 Loyalists or Nationalists? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Very soon after I did, but at the time I couldn't say 25 exactly -- 53 1 Q. But when you arrived it would not have been apparent to 2 you immediately as to what they were? 3 A. No, sir, it wasn't. 4 Q. They were just two injured people lying on the ground? 5 A. That is correct, sir. 6 Q. And you instinctively then commenced to do your best to 7 keep other people away from injuring those two people 8 lying on the ground? 9 A. Yes, that would have been my intention, yes. 10 MR FERGUSON: Yes, thank you. 11 A. Thank you, sir. 12 Questions by MR McGRORY 13 MR McGRORY: I have some questions, if I may. 14 MR ADAIR: I think according to our custom, I'm going to go 15 last. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly. 17 MR McGRORY: Reserve Constable Silcock, I'm going to ask you 18 some questions on behalf of the Hamill family. I want to 19 ask you first, Reserve Constable Silcock, just about the 20 impression that you got of these people who were around 21 Robert Hamill when you went over to him. 22 You have already been asked about your description 23 of them and the excitement that was generated by their 24 actions in their faces, and I think in your interview 25 with the Inquiry -- it is at page 30 of your 54 1 interview -- you referred to one of them. They are 2 basically Stacey Bridgett and Rory Robinson and you 3 referred to Rory Robinson as someone in whose eyes you 4 had never seen such excitement. Is that your 5 recollection? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Now, when you used the phrase you had never seen such 8 excitement in his eyes, had you come across this man 9 before? 10 A. Rory Robinson I would have known from general police 11 duties in Portadown, yes. 12 Q. Yes. Referring specifically to Stacey Bridgett, had you 13 come across him before? 14 A. No, I hadn't, no. 15 Q. So when you used the phrase: 16 "I had never seen such excitement in his eyes." 17 You mean you had never seen such excitement in 18 anybody's eyes? 19 A. Yes, in a general term, yes. 20 Q. I just want to clarify that. You see, what I'm going to 21 suggest to you is that what may be remarkable about this 22 is that these two guys in particular you are able to 23 identify, that they had no inhibitions whatsoever about 24 approaching this man on the ground in an aggressive way 25 in front of a police officer. Is that your memory? 55 1 A. Yes, sir, it is. 2 Q. And that had you not been there, it is your recollection 3 that they would have attacked him in front of you had 4 you not apprehended them? 5 A. I don't know -- I would have assumed that would have 6 happened. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: That is conjecture, not a proper question. 8 MR McGRORY: Well, I was simply trying to get the witness's 9 impression of the extent of the aggression towards 10 Mr Hamill, sir. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Without more, the question is not 12 appropriate. If there were evidence that he was handing 13 his jacket to someone to hold for him -- that's a rather 14 silly example -- but putting one foot forward and 15 leaning forward, that might permit such a question but 16 not as far as it goes at the moment. 17 MR McGRORY: As you please, sir. 18 Now, Reserve Constable Silcock, just in terms of what you 19 did with Mr Hamill on the ground, we have evidence from a 20 witness who also goes by the name of F. I'm not allowed to 21 mention her name. She would have been one of those who 22 was related to Mr Hamill and was present. She gave 23 evidence on 26 January -- page 73 of her evidence -- 24 that no one came to help. But obviously that cannot be 25 correct -- is that right? -- in view of what you have 56 1 said? 2 A. I was there to help. 3 Q. Yes. Now, what I want to ask you about this further is the 4 ambulanceman, at page [81204], if I could have that please -- 5 I just want you to have a look at what he says, Reserve 6 Constable Silcock, because it is at paragraph 9. You see that: 7 "The second casualty, who I now know to have been 8 Robert Hamill, was further up Market Street away from the mouth 9 the Thomas Street closer to the central reservation. 10 Mr Hamill was lying on his back and he was unconscious." 11 Now, the ambulanceman is saying he was lying on his 12 back, which would suggest that he wasn't in the recovery 13 position, Reserve Constable Silcock. What is your memory of 14 how you left him lying? 15 A. I left him on his side with the people he was with in 16 the recovery position. 17 Q. Are you suggesting then that the ambulanceman must have 18 been wrong about this? 19 A. Whenever he was left by me, he was in the recovery 20 position. 21 Q. Very well. Now, if I could just ask you about 22 paragraph 11 of your statement to the Inquiry -- sir, I 23 do not have a page reference numbers on my -- 24 MR ADAIR: [81162]. 25 MR McGRORY: [81162]. I'm grateful to Mr Adair. [81162]. At 57 1 the beginning of this paragraph, Reserve Constable Silcock, 2 your recollection of a woman wearing a white top pointing 3 out a youth to you in the crowd. She alleged that he had 4 jumped on the ahead of Robert Hamill. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. Now, you refer to this in some of your original, more 7 contemporaneous statements as well and you appear to 8 identify the person that she identified to you as 9 Stacey Bridgett, because you hear him answering to that 10 name a short time later. Do you agree with the fact? 11 A. Yes, I agree with you, yes. 12 Q. He was the chap who you said had such excitement in his 13 eyes. Also note this intervention by this woman in your 14 notebook. Do you remember that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It is in (inaudible). Now, is it the case obviously 17 that you didn't approach her to find out who she was? 18 A. Just at that time, unfortunately, the situation 19 didn't -- couldn't allow me to do that. 20 Q. Could you not have just said to her, "Sorry, what's your 21 name?" 22 A. In hindsight it could have been done, but at that time I 23 didn't. 24 Q. Do you understand that she was potentially a very 25 important witness? Do you understand why that would be 58 1 the case? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Because she was telling you that she had witnessed that 4 particular man kick Robert Hamill? 5 A. I understand what you are saying, yes. 6 Q. And that in terms of the efficiency of the 7 investigation, it would have been very, very useful to 8 the investigation to have known who that woman was. Do 9 you agree with that? 10 A. Yes, I agree with you, yes. 11 Q. But are you saying that you didn't have the time to find out 12 who she was or it didn't occur to you, Reserve Constable Silcock? 13 A. At that time I just hadn't the time to do that with 14 everything that was going on. 15 Q. You were able to identify some of the people around as 16 relatives. Is that right? 17 A. Yes, cousins and stuff, yes. 18 Q. So you were able to do that. How did you ascertain 19 that, Reserve Constable Silcock, that they were relatives? 20 A. It must have been conversations I had at the scene, you 21 know. 22 Q. So you had sufficient conversation with some of the 23 people to ascertain that at least they were relatives? 24 A. They would have been very quick questions. "I'm 25 a cousin" or, "Yes, I'm with this man". Something like 59 1 that. There wasn't great detail given. 2 Q. Do you not accept, Reserve Constable Silcock, that it 3 wouldn't have taken a lot to ask this woman in the 4 white cardigan what her name was? 5 A. It wouldn't have taken a lot in slow time to do that. 6 Unfortunately, with the case going around me and all, I 7 didn't do it. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember at what stage you learned 9 from conversations that some women were cousins? 10 A. Just whenever the men were on the ground and I was 11 working with them. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 13 MR McGRORY: Can I turn, Reserve Constable Silcock, to 14 paragraph 19 of your statement? Perhaps we could have 15 that on the screen. It would be helpful. Thank you. 16 Now, in this paragraph you describe, when you go 17 back to the station, part of the scene, and when you 18 completed your notebook, you can't remember when or 19 where you were in the station, but when you were about 20 to terminate duty for the day you were called to the 21 CID. It was approximately 8 am. There are a number of 22 names of police personnel. I'm not going to use those 23 names; you can see them. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, is it correct that at no point up until the point 60 1 that you left the police station -- at no point did 2 anybody sit you down and say, "Give us a account of what 3 you saw and what you did"? 4 A. I can't remember that being done. 5 Q. But you seem to have entered up your notebook off your 6 own bat. Something that you would have done anyway? 7 A. Yes, it is something I normally do, yes. 8 Q. And of course the entry about the woman in the white 9 cardigan is in the notebook. So you were sufficiently 10 conscious of the importance of it to put it in the 11 notebook? 12 A. Yes, the lady in the white top. 13 Q. Yes, back in the police station, and about what she had 14 seen. But at that point did it not occur to you, Reserve 15 Constable Silcock, to say to some of those more senior people 16 in the police station, "Look, there is something of significance 17 here. What I was told by the woman in the white cardigan?" 18 A. Sorry, could you -- 19 Q. Did you pass that information on to any of those people 20 who were around you in the police station? 21 A. I can't remember doing that, no. I can't remember 22 passing it on. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: What happens to your notebook when you have 24 written up your note? 25 A. I hold on to it until it is finished and then it is put 61 1 by. I would use for making statements. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So there is no routine inspection of it by 3 someone else? 4 A. Not at the end of each shift or anything, no. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 6 MR McGRORY: We know that you didn't think to volunteer that 7 information to anyone, but what I'm talking about here 8 is whether or not you were debriefed -- do you 9 understand that term? 10 A. Yes, I do understand the term debrief, yes. 11 Q. Would you have understood it then? Would you have had 12 a debrief before? 13 A. I don't recall a debrief taking place, a formal debrief 14 or a debrief taking place that morning. 15 Q. Maybe you have told us already and I have missed it, but 16 how long had you been on the police force in May 1997? 17 A. I joined in May 1988. 18 Q. Is you were quite experienced? 19 A. Some eight or nine years. 20 Q. Can we presume, Reserve Constable Silcock, that you had 21 been on the scene of some serious incidents in your time? 22 A. A few but not numerous, but a few, yes. 23 Q. Public order incidents? 24 A. Nothing as drastic as this one. 25 Q. And after such an incident, have you had any experience 62 1 of somebody more senior saying to you, "Tell me what 2 happened, what did you see"? 3 A. No, I can't, I can't recall it happening. 4 Q. So that had never happened to you before? 5 A. Not in public order things in the town centre, no. 6 Q. No. But certainly, before you left the police station 7 this particular morning at 8 am, a number of more senior 8 people had arrived on this scene. That's your 9 recollection? 10 A. That's correct, yes, CID, yes. 11 Q. And by this time it was being discussed that this was 12 a serious incident, in that these injuries to Mr Hamill 13 were pretty serious? 14 A. Yes, at that time, yes. 15 Q. And even in that context nobody said, "Well, tell me 16 what happened in your own words. Give me more 17 information, give me more detail." Nobody asked you 18 that question? 19 A. I can't remember that being asked of you. 20 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: It does say in paragraph 19: 21 "We were all asked to make statements." 22 MR McGRORY: Yes, and indeed in the statement that you'd 23 made you mention the fact that a lady in a white 24 cardigan had spoken to you. Just have a look there. 25 MR UNDERWOOD: Page [09220]. 63 1 MR McGRORY: Yes, thank you. Because I think you do mention 2 it in one of your statements, all right, about the woman 3 in the white cardigan, I can't just quite find it at the 4 moment. 5 MR UNDERWOOD: Page [09220]. 6 MR McGRORY: I haven't my glasses. Yes, thank you. That's 7 very helpful. Thank you, Mr Underwood. 8 So in this statement which you made on 27 April -- 9 this is obviously the statement that you made before you 10 left the police station -- you have actually -- you have 11 translated what you had in your notebook onto your 12 statement? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: If you read over the page to see what you 15 allege. 16 MR McGRORY: Indeed, over the page you actually say that: 17 "One of the rowdy youths was pointed out to me by a 18 woman wearing a white top, who alleged [09221] that this youth 19 had jumped on the head of one of the injured men." 20 Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When you finished making this statement to whom did you 23 give it? Can you remember? 24 A. I gave it to CID personnel. 25 Q. I don't want you to mention any names. 64 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. But -- 3 THE CHAIRMAN: He has got a chart. 4 MR McGRORY: Can you refresh your memory at all from the 5 chart? 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Paragraph 19, he can look that up on the 7 chart. 8 MR McGRORY: You mention a number of names in paragraph 19 9 of your statement. 10 A. From memory, I think I gave it to DS Lawther. 11 Q. Now, was it read in your presence at all? 12 A. I can't remember, I can't honestly remember. 13 Q. But certainly nobody said to you, "Can you tell us 14 anything more about the woman in the white cardigan"? 15 A. I can't remember anybody asking that. 16 Q. Can you describe her? Can you identify her as one of 17 the relatives? Nobody pressed you on this? 18 A. I can't remember anyone pressing me on it at all. 19 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much. 20 Questions by MS DINSMORE 21 MS DINSMORE: I appear on behalf of Robert Atkinson. Could you just 22 help the Inquiry with anything you observed in relation 23 to what Robert Atkinson was doing at the scene? 24 A. Yes, he was -- Robert Atkinson was out with a baton and was quite 25 proactive. 65 1 Q. When you say "quite proactive", who was he proactive 2 towards? 3 A. The crowd in question. 4 Q. Was that crowd in question the Loyalist crowd? 5 A. As far as I remember, yes. 6 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. 7 Questions by MR GREEN 8 MR GREEN: I have just one question. When you arrived at 9 the scene -- I think you were one of the first back-up 10 police officers to arrive; isn't that right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. You would be very rapidly assessing the situation in 13 front of you; isn't that right? 14 A. Yes, I mean -- from memory, yes. 15 Q. To see what assistance you could give to your colleagues 16 who were already there; is that right? 17 A. Yes, the situation. 18 Q. The two persons who you have given us a account of 19 seeing -- of you seeing doing something -- were persons 20 who were not known to you at the time; isn't that right? 21 A. Naming names, Mr Robinson I knew from the general police 22 duties, the other boy, Mr Bridgett, I didn't know. 23 Q. You see, that is in your statement at paragraph 10, I 24 think, if you knew Mr Robinson from your general police 25 duties. But could I ask you to look at your original 66 1 statement, dated 27 April, page [09221]. Just 2 highlight -- and you tell us there about the person who 3 responded to the name Stacey: 4 "Another youth was wearing a bright yellow/orange 5 shirt with a black check. This youth had dark-ish hair. 6 I now know this person to be Rory Robinson." 7 Then you give the address. That seems to indicate 8 that at the time you saw what was happening you didn't 9 in fact know Rory Robinson, in that the name at some 10 stage thereafter was given to you, a name to the person. 11 Do you understand that? 12 A. I understand what you are saying, yes. 13 Q. Can you help with us that? 14 A. Yes, I had known Rory Robinson from general police 15 duties from Portadown. 16 Q. Yes, but at the time that statement is made -- 17 A. I see the way it is phrased, yes. 18 Q. It is dated 27 April 1997 and it seems to indicate quite 19 strongly that at the time you were recording the details 20 of what that person was doing, you didn't know him 21 because why else would you say: 22 "I now know this person"? 23 A. Yes, the phrase would give that impression, but I did 24 know Rory Robinson from general police duties. 25 Q. You did know him? 67 1 A. From general police duties. 2 MR GREEN: Thank you. 3 Questions by MR BERRY 4 MR BERRY: Constable, you have described arriving at the 5 scene and going to a person you now know to be D? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that was before you attended on Robert Hamill; is 8 that correct? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection now of what D was wearing? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you made a statement on 24 May 1997 and you gave 13 a description of what that person was wearing -- that's 14 [00702] -- you say about five or six lines down: 15 "Number 1 was a male dressed in shirt and trousers." 16 Do you see that? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. And then you identify that person as being D? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When you made that statement, was that matter fresh in 21 your recollection at that time? 22 A. I can't honestly -- I can't honestly remember. 23 Q. The second man I want to ask you about is -- two 24 witnesses have indicated that the women who were with 25 Robert Hamill were verbally aggressive to the police. 68 1 A. The women? 2 Q. Yes. Now, the first thing I want to ask you: apart from 3 you, when you were with Robert Hamill, was any other 4 police officer in the immediate vicinity of 5 Robert Hamill apart from you? 6 A. I can't remember anyone, but I thought that the 7 constable that I was driving was behind me, so he was. 8 Q. Well, when you were attending Robert Hamill, there were 9 a number of people with him; isn't that correct? 10 A. That's correct, yes. 11 Q. And some of those people were women. Isn't that right? 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 Q. Were any of those women verbally aggressive to you? 14 A. I don't recall any women being verbally aggressive to 15 myself. 16 Q. Even going on from that, a paramedic, a Mr Glen Stewart, 17 he has indicated in fact that the women, or a woman, 18 prevented you from giving first aid to Robert Hamill. 19 Is that your recollection? 20 A. Sorry, I can't -- I don't remember any woman being 21 physically or verbally aggressive towards me. Maybe 22 there was one that was really protective of him. That 23 would have been maybe an obstruction, but I can't 24 remember anyone actually being physically or verbally 25 aggressive of a female nature. 69 1 Q. You had administered what first aid you could to 2 Robert Hamill; isn't that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR BERRY: Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb? 6 Questions by MR McCOMB 7 MR McCOMB: Just a few questions. Most of the ground has 8 already been covered. Just an answer to the last 9 question from the last colleague of mine. You were 10 being asked which other officers did you remember being 11 in the immediate vicinity of Mr Hamill as he was lying 12 on the ground. Your recollection was it was your 13 colleague, Constable Adams, who you had driven who had arrived with 14 you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In the same car. Isn't that right? 17 Now, perhaps it is not fair to put this to you, but 18 do you recall whether he was perhaps on the opposite 19 side of the road at some stage, dealing with the crowd 20 at the Woodhouse Street entrance? It may be that that 21 is what his evidence will be -- I don't know -- but it 22 appears to be perhaps part of the statement. 23 A. I couldn't be 100 per cent clear on that. 24 Q. Indeed. 25 A. It would be wrong of me to say. 70 1 Q. Indeed. But when you are trying to recall -- and 2 I appreciate it is difficult -- what other fellow 3 officers were with you or close to you as you were with 4 Mr Hamill as he was lying on the ground, is that the 5 only officer whom you can recall being present in that 6 immediate vicinity at the time that you were with him? 7 A. The only one I recall who was with me, yes. 8 Q. And just so I'm clear -- we may be clear about this -- 9 when you say in that vicinity, do you mean by that in 10 the immediate vicinity of Mr Hamill? 11 A. In the close vicinity of my myself, yes. 12 Q. And you were with Mr Hamill at the time? 13 A. I couldn't 100 per cent say, yes, that gentleman was 14 behind me whenever I was attending, I couldn't -- 15 Q. I'm trying to ask you -- 16 A. I'm trying to give an honest answer. 17 Q. Just to try and get a picture, you do have a picture of 18 a crowd of people? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Some of whom were more excited than others. And we have 21 different accounts of this. It may be that there were 22 some fights going on with small groups of people, 23 perhaps one-to-one or something like that, around the 24 time that you had arrived and were present. Would you 25 have any recollection of that? 71 1 A. No, I don't, sir. 2 Q. And so far as Mr Robinson or Mr Bridgett are concerned, 3 or indeed anybody else, is it fair to say that you never 4 saw them trying to strike or kick anybody, either D 5 or -- 6 A. No, I never actually saw them trying to strike or kick 7 them at that stage, no. 8 Q. Just in relation to the lady with the white top, did she 9 appear to you to be one of what we now know to be the 10 Protestant crowd or did she appear to you to be somebody 11 who was with or of the same faith as the two injured 12 men? 13 A. The lady in the white top I thought was from the Roman 14 Catholic side. 15 Q. Yes. When she spoke to you, was she right beside 16 Mr Hamill? 17 A. She would have been in the close vicinity. 18 Q. And do you recall that there were one or two, or what 19 number of ladies would have been in that group, in 20 Mr Hamill's ...? 21 A. I think four, I think -- well, I couldn't be 22 100 per cent, but -- 23 Q. Four -- 24 A. I think four women, but I couldn't be 100 per cent. 25 Q. I see. Thank you very much. Perhaps the only thing 72 1 perhaps to say -- but it may be more a matter of 2 comment -- that none of the ladies that's given evidence 3 here could recall having said anything to you or any 4 other officer about a man having attacked Mr Hamill, but 5 you can't comment on that, can you? 6 A. I can't comment on that. 7 MR McCOMB: Thank you. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair, I see the time. Would you prefer 9 to do this at 20 past two? 10 MR ADAIR: I'm aware of certain knowledge about a personal 11 situation involving this witness's father. Would you 12 prefer I dealt with you now? 13 A. I would prefer if it was dealt with now. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, carry on. 15 Questions by MR ADAIR 16 MR ADAIR: I will not be very long, sir. 17 Could you put up page [81160], please? If we can 18 highlight paragraph 5, we see in paragraph 5 that you 19 told the Inquiry that four police officers were running 20 around trying to keep the crowd away from the men on the 21 ground and I think some with their batons drawn. Is 22 that still your recollection today? 23 A. Yes, it would be, yes. 24 Q. Now, if you could go turnover to [81162], please, you 25 will remember -- and I think it possibly was just an 73 1 error that was being put to you by Mr McGrory, that it 2 was Stacey Bridgett you described as the person with the 3 eyes rolling. Maybe you don't remember being asked 4 about that. If you look at paragraph 10 -- just 5 highlight the top -- you say: 6 "He was in the group of people that were shouting, 7 'I hope they die, they die'. I'm not able to say if 8 Rory Robinson shouted actually those words, but I recall 9 that he was in a very aggressive state in that he was 10 shouting and his body was tensed up and his eyes were 11 wild-looking." 12 So when you are talking about the person with wild 13 eyes, are you talking Rory Robinson or the man called 14 Stacey? 15 A. Stacey Bridgett, I remember his eyes. Rory Robinson -- 16 how -- had excited looking eyes as well. 17 Q. So it is both of them, really? 18 A. Yes, it would have been. 19 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you if you can help us about this, 20 please tell us: you had said that one of the barriers 21 was up, the main or arterial barrier would have been up 22 that night, is what I picked up from your evidence. Are 23 you sure about that? 24 A. I can't be 100 per cent sure now, but I thought it was 25 when I was writing up. 74 1 Q. Well, were there any cars driving about the street when 2 you went down? 3 A. Not that I remember. 4 Q. No. 5 A. I'm working from memory 12 years ago. Not that 6 I actually remember, no. 7 Q. Throughout the time that you were there, did you see any 8 cars making their way down High Street, Market Street? 9 A. I can't recall. 10 Q. Now, I want to ask you just briefly about this business 11 of debriefing. I know you have told us you have been on 12 relatively few public order incidents. Is that right? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. First of all, what do you understand by the term 15 "debriefing"? 16 A. My understanding, or personal view, is that whenever 17 people ask actually what I see happened, basically going 18 through what actually happened on that incident, you 19 know, I'm meaning senior officers or people interested, 20 they would want to know what happened, you would tell 21 them your side of the story. That's my thinking of 22 debriefing. 23 Q. Have you ever had one of those? 24 A. I have had a few, yes, to do with different incidents 25 and stuff, yes. 75 1 Q. Have you ever had one on a public order incident? 2 A. Not that I recall, no. Not prior to Mr Hamill's murder. 3 Q. So post Mr Hamill's murder, can you help us as to 4 whether the incidents of being talked to or debriefed by 5 more senior officers has increased in your experience? 6 A. It has increased in my experience. I am no longer in 7 the role I was in in Portadown. I'm now in a different 8 role. So if a public order would be -- I would attend 9 more public order problems (inaudible), more 10 debriefings, in these past several years, over these 11 past number of years, yes. 12 Q. Again, I'm not exactly sure -- I just want your help on 13 this: is a debriefing an officer getting a -- senior 14 officer getting all the people who have been at the 15 scene into a room and asking them all, in each other's 16 presence, what they saw? Is it getting individual 17 officers into a room and asking them what they saw? 18 What is it? 19 A. My debriefings have been to basically tell my sergeant 20 or inspector, telling them. I never actually did it in 21 open forum as such. 22 Q. So it would be person to person? 23 A. In my experience, identify to say it would be 24 person-to-person, yes. 25 Q. And would that be before or after you had made a witness 76 1 statement? 2 A. Any I have done have actually been before I made my 3 statement. 4 Q. At the time of this, in April 1997, had you ever had 5 a debriefing in a public order incident? 6 A. Not that I ever remember, no. 7 Q. How many would you have had since? 8 A. Several. I couldn't put a number on it. Obviously not 9 dozen and dozens. 10 Q. Several, what is several? 11 A. Large ones, probably half a dozen. That's where I'm 12 working now, where I have been more involved in public 13 disorder. Whilst being an ordinary patrol constable, 14 I don't remember any basically after that. 15 Q. Well, was there anything more you could have told, for 16 example, in this case, a debriefing officer than you had 17 already put in your statement? 18 A. I don't believe so, no. 19 Q. You are obviously still a serving police officer? 20 A. Yes, I'm still a serving police officer at present, yes. 21 Q. Were you served with what's known as a Form 17/3 at one 22 stage by the investigation team that were investigating 23 internal disciplinary matters? 24 A. Yes, I was, yes. 25 Q. Turn up page [10712], please. So is this the 17/3 that 77 1 got served on you at that stage? You told us you joined 2 the police when? 3 A. 31 May 1988. 4 Q. So you would have been a police officer for about 5 13 years at that stage? 6 A. No, about nine years. Sorry, when this was served? 7 Q. Yes, 2001? 8 A. Yes, that would have been right, yes. 9 Q. And we will see that it was alleged that you neglected 10 your duty, in that whilst you removed glass away from 11 the area, from the man's head, you took no appropriate 12 action, I think that is -- to secure and preserve same, 13 I think that's meant to be, in accordance with force 14 instructions and that you neglected your duty in 15 preserving the scene and that you failed to effect the 16 early arrests of suspects or consider the seizure of 17 clothing belonging to this suspect or suspects for the 18 purposes of forensic examination. 19 Now, had you anything -- first of all, had you any 20 training in scene preservation in 1997? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Had you ever received as much as half a day's training 23 in scene preservation? 24 A. Not -- 25 Q. Or an hour? Had you received five minutes' training in 78 1 it? 2 A. Not that I remember, no. 3 Q. As far as you are concerned, did you have any role to 4 play in the preservation of the scene where this 5 incident was concerned? 6 A. No, I didn't believe on a personal basis, no. 7 Q. And in relation to the other allegations, do you believe 8 you had any role to play in any of those allegations? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How did you feel when you got -- I'm sorry, if we go to 11 the next page, [10713], this is also -- am I right in 12 saying -- the allegation that was made against you by 13 this team: 14 "Because of the shortfalls in the investigative 15 processes, a number of persons who were subsequently 16 acquitted at court of serious criminal offences. In 17 addition, as a result of the aforementioned allegations, 18 you have brought the reputation of the force into 19 disrepute and your actions were contrary to the Force 20 Ethics on professional policing." 21 Were you aware that you were being accused of a lack 22 of integrity, Mr ...? 23 A. Once I got this here, I was made aware of it. I was 24 absolutely gutted on a personal thing. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we should note the date of that, 79 1 22 June 2001. 2 A. Yes, which was several years after that. I was 3 absolutely angry, for getting this. I didn't think 4 I did anything wrong. To be accused of that there, 5 self-esteem-wise, I felt somewhat annoyed as well. 6 MR ADAIR: Now, these are a series of very serious 7 allegations that this form set out against you, 8 including bringing the reputation of the police force 9 into disrepute. 10 If you go to page [10252], do you remember then 11 being interviewed by two officers concerning these 12 allegations? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. These serious allegations which left you in the state 15 you have described, we will see that your interview 16 started at 09:51. If we look about six lines down, and 17 four lines up from the bottom, your interview ended at 18 10:15? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. So including all the preliminary introductions that were 21 made to you and so on about the nature of the 22 allegations, the interview that was conducted with you 23 lasted all of 25 minutes. Is that right? 24 A. That would be right, yes. 25 Q. Did you ever receive any notification about the outcome 80 1 of it? 2 A. I can't remember receiving any official notification. 3 I'm saying I can't remember, I'm not saying I didn't. 4 Q. I understand. 5 A. I can't remember. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you receive any unofficial notification? 7 A. Yes, I was told that there would be nothing forthcoming 8 from it. 9 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you. 10 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD 11 MR UNDERWOOD: Just a few questions arising, if I may. You 12 have been asked about the lady with the white top who 13 pointed out Stacey Bridgett. Can you recall any other 14 aspects of her clothing? 15 A. No, I can't. 16 Q. The only other matter I want to ask you about is 17 debriefing after public order incidents. You told us 18 that prior to the one we are talking about here, you 19 hadn't received a debriefing after a public order 20 incident. But what I want to ask you is had you 21 experienced a public order incident with a serious 22 injury like this one prior to this? 23 A. No, I hadn't. 24 Q. Just so that we can all understand how these things 25 worked, in this jurisdiction, do I gather this 81 1 correctly, that in 1997 at least if you witnessed 2 something or were involved in something and you then 3 completed your notebook entry, you didn't compile your 4 notebook entry together with other officers who had 5 seen it? 6 A. I believe some did, but I didn't. 7 Q. Hm-mm. And as a matter practice, you didn't do that? 8 A. That was my personal ... 9 Q. So, so far as you were concerned, when you came to make 10 notebook entries in general, unless you were debriefed, 11 the question of what you remembered and what you were 12 able to record was not assisted by anybody debriefing 13 you or jogging your memory by what they also saw? 14 A. No, what I put in my notebook was my words and my 15 recollection. 16 Q. Can you help us with the occasions where, now, you can 17 talk about having been debriefed, whether on those 18 occasions the debriefing exercise was able to elicit 19 from you anything that you wouldn't otherwise have put 20 in your notebook? 21 A. I don't believe it would have. 22 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, it may be helpful if we can 82 1 know what are the force instructions to which the 2 disciplinary notice referred and what distribution they 3 had; in other words, would a constable have known of 4 them? 5 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, we will be calling the two officers who 6 conducted that investigation and I hope we have the 7 documents attached to their statements. If we haven't, 8 I'll ensure that we do. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Very well, 25 to three. 10 (1.35 pm) 11 (The short adjournment) 12 (2.40 pm) 13 MR UNDERWOOD: Witness A, please. 14 Application by MR McGRORY 15 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir, before this witness is called, can 16 I raise a brief issue, sir? 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 18 MR McGRORY: Towards the conclusion of the previous 19 witness's evidence, Mr Adair asked a series of questions 20 about the conduct of the investigation in 2001 by 21 a certain female superintendent. 22 Now, I just wish to express some unease about the 23 relevance of raising those questions with a witness in 24 respect of whom that superintendent made no criticism at 25 the conclusion of that investigation. 83 1 Now, I accept entirely -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: May it not bear in the case of witnesses whom 3 she may have criticised? 4 MR McGRORY: Yes, we are about, actually, to hear from one 5 such witness, and in my respectful submission, it would 6 not be inappropriate for Mr Adair to raise questions of 7 the next witness, assuming that the issue of the 8 admonishment is touched upon in the course of that 9 witness's evidence. But it is my respectful 10 submission -- and I don't regard this as a major issue, 11 but I still think that it would be inappropriate for 12 each and every police witness who was interviewed in the 13 context of that investigation to be asked questions 14 about their view of the conduct of the investigation 15 when, in fact, that investigation made no criticism of 16 them whatsoever. 17 I put it no further than that, sir, other than that 18 there are very few witnesses -- 19 THE CHAIRMAN: In his opening remarks, Mr Adair was asking 20 the Panel to bear in mind the tension that police 21 officers had been under in the years since 1997 because 22 of the allegations which had been made against them and 23 because of disciplinary proceedings. I think he puts 24 that forward as something we should bear in mind when we 25 weigh their testimony. Indeed, he said, bear in mind, 84 1 if they appear to be resentful -- that's my word -- 2 about the treatment they have received, it is not 3 treatment by the Panel, but it has been treatment by the 4 police authority itself. 5 Now, isn't that something which may have a bearing 6 upon how we assess their evidence? 7 MR McGRORY: Well, respectfully no, sir, in a context where 8 the particular investigation about which Mr Adair seeks 9 to complain in itself had no bearing on what this 10 witness has to say about the events of 27 April 1997. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: But, you see, if a witness feels aggrieved -- 12 and this last witness felt angry about the allegation 13 made against him -- if one doesn't know why he feels 14 aggrieved, one might regard this as an adverse factor 15 when it comes to assessing his evidence. Isn't that so? 16 MR McGRORY: Yes, but -- 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, then, isn't Mr Adair entitled to ask 18 questions which explain or offer an explanation as to 19 why the witness should feel aggrieved so that if we 20 accept that, we don't say, "My word, this was a man with 21 a chip on his shoulder" and think that might reflect 22 against the weight we should give to his evidence? 23 MR McGRORY: Yes, but with respect, the evidence of the 24 sense of being aggrieved is led, is it not, by Mr Adair. 25 So he, on the one hand, seeks to lead the evidence of a 85 1 grievance and, on the other hand, then explain it. The 2 issue of a grievance on the part of an individual police 3 officer about the timing and the nature in which the 4 Superintendent's investigation was conducted, in my 5 respectful submission, are not relevant to the terms of 6 reference, except insofar as any finding might have 7 been -- 8 THE CHAIRMAN: It was I who raised the question at the time. 9 Do you remember? I drew attention to the date of the 10 complaint. 11 MR McGRORY: Yes. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: And it does seem to me that that's something 13 we may have to take into account in asking why were 14 disciplinary proceedings brought and why at the time 15 they were. 16 MR McGRORY: Yes. Well, in my respectful submission, sir, 17 those questions were raised after Mr Adair had raised 18 the issue. But I put it no higher than that. You have 19 my submission and you may make your ruling. 20 There is one other issue, sir and that is that I 21 have been notified that the family can't hear these 22 proceedings and I would ask that we go no further until 23 they can. They have been excluded for this witness's 24 evidence and I would be unhappy about proceeding until 25 they can hear what's happening. 86 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I don't think the temporary granting of 2 anonymity relates to there not being a sound 3 transmission to the room where they may be in. 4 MR ADAIR: This witness has permanent -- she was one of the 5 ones originally granted the permanent screening and 6 anonymity. So obviously the family have to hear what is 7 being said. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: I don't know whether that's a technical 9 problem or whether that's designed, whether we will need 10 time to put it right. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, those -- both the press and the 12 family -- must be in a position to hear. How long will 13 it take to you put that right? 14 IT OFFICER: About 15 minutes. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: 15 minutes? Everything needs to take 16 15 minutes. I ought to ask you, Mr Adair, about whether 17 you wish to say anything about Mr McGrory's submission. 18 MR ADAIR: No, sir. I rhetorically wonder why Mr McGrory 19 wishes to silence those police officers who have been 20 interviewed under discipline and exonerated, but wishes 21 to emphasise those police officers who have been 22 interviewed and admonished arising out of the same 23 disciplinary proceedings. I haven't come to the answer 24 of the rhetorical question myself yet. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to say anything on the issue, 87 1 Mr Underwood? 2 MR UNDERWOOD: No, sir. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm against you, Mr McGrory. We will retire. 4 (2.50 am) 5 (Short adjournment) 6 (3.10 pm) 7 MR UNDERWOOD: Witness A. 8 A (sworn) 9 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD 10 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. My name is Underwood and I'm 11 Counsel to the Inquiry. I will ask questions to start 12 with. It is highly likely you will be asked some more 13 after that by other people. 14 You realise, I think, that we are calling you "A" in 15 this? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. We have also got a number of initials now for other 18 people who are on the list and you will have a chance, I 19 think, to be given a list as we go through. 20 Can I ask you to look, please, at page [81683]. 21 This is the start of a statement -- can I just ask you 22 to have a look quickly, as we scan through it quickly. 23 Is that your witness statement? 24 A. It appears to be, yes. 25 Q. Is it true? 88 1 A. It is true. 2 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you some additional 3 questions arising out of bits and pieces of it to 4 clarify and expand, if I may. 5 If we look at the first page, [81683], in 6 paragraph 3, you tell us that you were a constable for 7 14 years and you received training that you identify 8 there. Can I ask you to have a look, please, at 9 page [72544]? Is that your training record? 10 A. It would appear to be, yes. 11 Q. Thank you very much. Then I want to go over to 12 page [81684], paragraph 4 of your statement. You tell 13 us there who was in your section and which sergeant was 14 in charge. You don't mention somebody we are calling 15 [Constable Adams]. Can I just ask you to have a look on 16 the cipher list and see who that is? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was he in there? 19 A. He was in my section. He wasn't in my crew that night. 20 I can't recall him being in my crew that night. 21 Q. All right. Still looking on that page, if we look at 22 paragraph 5, you tell us that you were detailed in 23 a response car with a constable we are calling him -- we 24 have got his name to the screen -- Constable Orr. Was 25 there anybody else in your car? 89 1 A. Not that I can recall. 2 Q. Can I just show you a couple of documents and see if 3 they can help you on this? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. If you look at page [09980]. Perhaps we can all look at 6 page [09980]. There is an entry there: 7 "23:45 Paraded for duty by [the sergeant]." 8 And: 9 "Detailed OBS ..." 10 Is that observer? 11 A. It is, yes. 12 Q. "... [in] JD70." 13 It gives two names there. Does that help you? 14 A. Yes, I remember that he was detailed with me, but I 15 can't remember him being in the car. 16 Q. This is your notebook entry, I should point out. 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. And of course there is the part of the entry which is at 19 23:45 on 26 April. Can you just help us about when you 20 would have made the notebook entry for that? Would you 21 have made the whole notebook entry at the end of the 22 tour of duty? 23 A. No, my briefing would have been made -- the entry would 24 have been made at my briefing. 25 Q. Right. And can you help us, was JD a Land Rover or an 90 1 ordinary car? 2 A. It was an armoured car. 3 Q. Then if we go back to [81684], paragraph 6, you say 4 that: 5 "Reserve constable Cornett was 6 basically screaming down the radio that she needed help. 7 She was screaming, 'They're killing each other'." 8 Do you recall that? 9 A. I do, yes. 10 Q. I should say -- this is nothing to do with examining 11 you -- I said before the break that on the tape we 12 listened to that doesn't appear. I'm being told that 13 for those who listen very carefully and are well enough 14 attuned, it is there. It hasn't reached a transcript 15 and I will be asking that officer about it when she 16 comes to give her evidence. 17 If we look at page [03838], final paragraph there. 18 This is a report a little later on, 12 June 1997, about 19 the sequence in which the cars arrived at the scene. It 20 says: 21 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery 22 Mondeo followed within seconds by the A/Ford Sierra." 23 Does that mean "armoured Ford Sierra"? 24 A. It would do, yes. 25 Q. That's your car then? 91 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. If we go back then to page [81684], paragraph 7, you 3 say: 4 "I cannot remember how soon we arrived after 5 receiving the call. Nor can I remember exactly what route, once we 6 entered the town. However, I remember that the barriers 7 were definitely closed except for the barrier at 8 Edward Street, so this was the only way in. We 9 started driving through Edward Street, up 10 Market Street, turned right to go down Market Street 11 again and around the central reservation." 12 It goes on and says you drove on the other side of 13 the road. Is that your clear recollection now: you 14 drove in, went one way up the dual carriageway, turned 15 round and went back again? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In doing so, did you pass through any crowd or did you 18 see anything going on? 19 A. I know that we must have passed through the crowd, but I 20 don't recall it. 21 Q. Is this right, that you saw Wayne Lunt at quite an early 22 stage as you were coming in? 23 A. That's correct, yes. 24 Q. So was your attention on him? 25 A. No. 92 1 Q. So is it just a memory problem, do you think, about 2 seeing a crowd or did you not notice a crowd at all? 3 A. I think it is just a memory -- I just don't recall -- 4 I know that we did -- we must have drove through the 5 crowd. 6 Q. Right. Then if we go to the next page of your 7 statement, paragraph 8, you deal with seeing Wayne Lunt 8 outside of Thornton's: 9 "... did not recognise him." 10 Does that mean you didn't know him? 11 A. I didn't know him at all. 12 Q. You describe there his clothing and of course we know 13 that in due course you took him to the back of the Land 14 Rover and checked on his name and address. Did you deal 15 with anybody else in a similar way; in other words, did 16 you put anybody else into the back of the Land Rover? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you see any other officer put anybody in the back of 19 the Land Rover? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you see anybody else wearing clothing that you 22 describe there that was on him? 23 A. In what way, clothing? 24 Q. Did you see anybody else wearing a white sweatshirt with 25 grey stripes, a Rangers scarf -- 93 1 A. I didn't see anybody else wearing the scarf around their 2 face, no. 3 Q. What about the rest of the white outfit: white jeans, 4 white sweatshirt, baseball cap? 5 A. I honestly can't remember. 6 Q. Right. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember how his scarf was worn? 8 A. When I initially saw him? 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 10 A. It was obscuring his nose and mouth. 11 MR UNDERWOOD: He told us it was up to his mouth. Are you 12 clear that it was higher than that? 13 A. Very clear. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: What sort of an evening was it, or a night 15 was it, in terms of temperature? 16 A. It was a very calm night, it wasn't raining, it was 17 a bright night. I can't remember how cold it was. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 MR UNDERWOOD: So you have told us in the next paragraph of 20 your statement that you stopped the car and ran after 21 him and he ran off up towards the church and you 22 couldn't catch him. 23 Compared with that incident, can you tell us when 24 you first noticed that there was a disturbance going on? 25 A. When I noticed Lunt running and the bottle down by his 94 1 side. I noticed that he was running towards a crowd in 2 the town centre and I just assumed that he was going to 3 this crowd and he was going to be throwing that bottle. 4 Q. And you told us in the statement that he had his hand 5 down by his side and he was holding the bottle by its 6 neck. Are you clear about that? 7 A. He was holding the bottle upside down. 8 Q. You are clear about that, are you? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Thank you. Looking at your paragraph 10, you tell us 11 there that you saw a Land Rover, and further on in the 12 paragraph -- we don't need to go to it -- you tell us 13 that you saw two bodies and a crowd of youths. Can 14 I ask you now to have a look at a map and for you to 15 mark on the map for us? If we go to our standard map 16 and perhaps we could zoom in on the centre. Perhaps 17 zoom in a little more, if we can. 18 Does that give you enough of the scene to be able to 19 mark where the Land Rover was and where the men were on 20 the ground were? 21 A. Could you zoom out slightly for me, please? 22 Q. Of course. Do you see Thomas Street is the one going 23 down from the junction and Woodhouse Street the one 24 going up. Is that enough of a scene for you? 25 A. It would be, yes. 95 1 Q. If we do a screen shot of that, we can give you control 2 and perhaps you could mark first of all where the Land 3 Rover was. 4 A. Very roughly. Sorry, I believe -- do you want me to try 5 that again? 6 Q. Yes, please. 7 A. Sorry. 8 Q. That's all right. It takes some getting used to. 9 Okay. And the men on the ground? So could we mark 10 those, starting from the top, 1, 2, 3? Keep that as 11 a record of that evidence. Thank you. 12 Now, we know that there came a point after you had 13 got Wayne Lunt into the back of the Land Rover, that you 14 radioed and asked for his address to be confirmed. Did 15 you make any other radio calls? 16 A. Not that I can recall. 17 Q. If we can go back to your witness statement then, on to 18 [81686], paragraph 12, you say: 19 "The crowd were right on top of the bodies and there 20 were about 40 people in the crowd, just a single crowd 21 of people, and they were close to the bodies but how 22 close I could not tell you. They were 23 trying to get to the bodies. The police 24 had formed a line between the bodies and the crowd and 25 we were just trying to push the people back..." 96 1 You were part of the line, were you? 2 A. I was, yes. 3 Q. Can you tell us about the atmosphere and what the crowd 4 was saying and doing? 5 A. I can't recall what they were saying, but I know that 6 they were pushing the police line and we were the only 7 defence between them and the bodies lying on the ground. 8 Q. By pushing, do you mean they were just pushing against 9 you? 10 A. No, they would have been aggressive in their manner. 11 Q. And trying to get through or just trying to push you 12 back? If you can't help, you can't help. 13 A. I don't know, I don't know. 14 Q. Then if we go over to the next page, at the bottom of 15 the page -- paragraph 14, rather -- you tell us in the 16 last three sentences or so, of this: 17 "I physically put Lunt into the back of the Land 18 Rover and climbed in behind him. I did this because I 19 wanted to get his name and address. I cannot remember 20 whether I closed the door, but I do not think I would 21 have left it open; normally, I would always shut and 22 lock it." 23 This was not the first time, then, that you had had 24 occasion to put a suspect into the back of a vehicle to 25 check his identity; is that right? 97 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And when you did that, in the ordinary course, would you 3 have made a note of who he was? 4 A. Not including this night, is that ...? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Yes, I would have, yes. 7 Q. You were in the Land Rover with him for five minutes or 8 so, I think, and when he was in the Land Rover he wasn't 9 causing any trouble, was he? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't make a note of who he 12 was while you were there? 13 A. I did make a note of Lunt's details while I was there. 14 Q. You did, did you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Thank you. In your notebook? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Right. Then looking down at paragraph 16, over the 19 page, sorry, in the middle of 16 you tell us: 20 "I assume that Lunt gave me the correct details 21 because otherwise I would have noted it in my statements. 22 It was my thinking that I was going to prosecute him for 23 disorderly behaviour and assault on a police officer." 24 We know that you decided it wasn't prudent to detain 25 him because it would have taken officers off the ground 98 1 at a busy time. We know he was on bail at the time of 2 this for an alleged offence of assault on the police. 3 If you had been told that when you checked his details, 4 would that have made a difference? 5 A. I still don't think we would have had the manpower to 6 arrest him and take him off the street. 7 Q. Is that because there was such a lot going on? 8 A. It is, because it was a very large crowd and a small 9 number of police. 10 Q. Then at paragraph 17, in the middle of the paragraph, 11 you say: 12 "I was not concerned that Lunt would run straight 13 back into the crowd because he had toned down his 14 attitude and his actions. He was so compliant by then 15 and was not the same person without his mates. Also, if 16 he had run back into the crowd, we probably would have 17 dealt with it, but he did not go back into the crowd." 18 I just want to check against that page [10454], 19 please. This is part of a disciplinary interview of you 20 on 20 November 2001. And about six lines down -- in 21 fact, if we highlight the top half of this about six 22 lines down: 23 "Now, by releasing him then, are you say that threat 24 from Wayne Lunt had gone away? 25 "Answer: Not necessarily, no. 99 1 "Question: Right, so you were happy enough to 2 release him? 3 "Answer: It wasn't that I was happy enough to 4 release him, no, but if I wanted to detain him any 5 longer, I was going to have to take him to a police 6 station which was going to take me and it was going to 7 take at least two other constables off the ground 8 because the way he was fighting. The way in which 9 I first detained him, the crowd were trying to pull him 10 off me. It was going to take at least three people off 11 the ground and we couldn't afford it. 12 "Question: Okay, so the decision to release 13 Wayne Lunt was purely because of the public order 14 situation pertaining at the time? 15 "Answer: Absolutely, absolutely. The crowd were 16 still there. They were still trying to get at the two 17 bodies lying on the ground." 18 That was the situation, was it? 19 A. It was very much the situation. 20 Q. So both at the time you took him into the Land Rover, 21 when people were trying to pull him back from you, and 22 at the time you let him out, when people were trying to 23 get at the two bodies on the ground, this crowd was 24 still, if I can put this word in your mouth, rioting; 25 would that be fair? 100 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In your view, was this an affray? 3 A. No. 4 Q. It wasn't an affray because? 5 A. It was a riot situation. 6 Q. More than affray? 7 A. Hm-mm. 8 Q. And I want to take you to paragraph 18 of your 9 statement, please, which I think was on the page we just 10 had. This is the reference to the man approaching you 11 and him saying: 12 "What the fuck did you let him go for? He was one 13 of the ones that did it." 14 The first thing I want to ask you about this is are 15 you certain that this man was accompanied by another 16 man? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you see a woman in the area at the time, can you 19 recall? 20 A. I can't recall, no. 21 Q. Help us out, if you would, about what else was going on 22 in your immediate area when this was happening. 23 Was there fighting around you? 24 A. The fighting was on the other side, across the central 25 reservation, if you like. 101 1 Q. So when you let -- 2 A. We were quite close to the central reservation, the Land 3 Rover, and I let Lunt out of the Land Rover and was 4 immediately approached or spoken to by that male person. 5 Q. And was this man who asked you, "What the fuck did you 6 let him go for?" the only person who swore at you? 7 A. He was standing with another man. 8 Q. That night and either immediately around this time or 9 otherwise, were you the subject of any abuse or 10 swearing? 11 A. By an individual person? 12 Q. By anybody. 13 A. No, just that one. 14 Q. So this would have stood out, then? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Tell us why you didn't put it in your notes? 17 A. It was a hectic night. I regret not putting him in my 18 notebook and there was nothing sinister in the fact that 19 it wasn't put in my notebook. I let the man go and I 20 had to get back to my colleagues. I gave them, the two 21 men, my details and asked them to come to my station the 22 following day to make a statement. 23 Q. To go back, at this stage is it your evidence that 24 people were still trying to get at the two men on the 25 ground? 102 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What was the ratio, as it were, of police to rioters, 3 roughly? 4 A. Maybe nine/ten of us and about 40/50 of them. 5 Q. You could have asked this person his name and written it 6 in your notebook in the same way that you had written 7 Lunt's name in your notebook. That's correct, is it? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. You are saying it is pressure of time, there were other 10 priorities. Is that fair? 11 A. It is, yes. 12 Q. You then, I think -- and I'm moving ahead -- you went 13 off to do a road traffic accident after this event? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And then came back to the station -- I know that you 16 later on were involved in the scene log; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And we know that you closed off the scene log, I think, 19 at 13 minutes past eight. Did you go back to the 20 station after that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that when you first made up your notes? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Were you assisted at all in making up your notes? 25 A. No. 103 1 Q. Let me get this quite clear: did you talk to any of the 2 other officers, while you were making up your notes, 3 about recollections? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did anybody help you by debriefing you so as to get 6 pieces of memory out of you in order to help your notes? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you experienced other occasions where you have been 9 debriefed and your notes and statements have benefited, 10 or have, as a result, been the subject of that 11 debriefing? 12 A. I have been debriefed in the past, yes, other incidents. 13 And as a result of that, you know, you were then sent to 14 do your statements. 15 Q. On those occasions where you were being debriefed, did 16 you find it of benefit? In other words, were you able 17 to put more in the statement than you would otherwise 18 have recalled? 19 A. I can't really say, I'm sorry. 20 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened then after you had let Lunt 21 out of the Land Rover and the situation which was 22 obtaining meant people were still trying to get at the 23 two people on the ground. What did you do? 24 A. I remember seeing the ambulance there and crews aiding 25 the two men on the ground. The crowd were forcibly 104 1 pushed back behind the barrier. 2 Q. By police, including you -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- or by other police? Right. 5 A. At that stage, there was an MSU in presence then and 6 when the crowd was pushed back behind the barrier I was 7 sent to the DIC RTA. 8 Q. Can you look at the final sentence of paragraph 19 on 9 the next page, [81689]? Let's take the last two 10 sentences: 11 "It was very much the case that everybody knew where 12 to go, and compared to some other crowds I faced this 13 one was manageable at this stage. Earlier the police 14 were in danger of being overwhelmed." 15 When you say: 16 "Earlier the police were in danger of being 17 overwhelmed." 18 Are you describing the first occasion when you were 19 involved in a line before seeing Lunt? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When you say "overwhelmed", do you mean there that the 22 crowd was liable to break through the line, or what else 23 do you mean? 24 A. They could have broken through the line, yes. 25 Q. Okay. If we go to paragraph 20, you talk about the 105 1 sergeant and some other officers there. What I want to 2 ask you about is a reserve constable we are calling 3 [Robert Atkinson]. Do you know who I mean? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you see him at the scene? 6 A. I don't recall seeing him there. 7 Q. Do you know who the Land Rover crew were? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall seeing any of those at the scene when you 10 arrived? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. They were out and about, were they -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- or were they still in the car? 15 A. They were out. 16 Q. Do you recall what they were doing? 17 A. They were in the crowd. 18 Q. Were they in the crowd being effective, or not? 19 A. I would say no, there was only four of them. 20 Q. Can you say that they should have been doing anything 21 else? 22 A. They were doing their best. 23 Q. Okay. In paragraph 22 you say in the final sentence 24 that a statement that you refer to there: 25 "... also reminds [you] that [you] recognised 106 1 Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes and another in the crowd." 2 When you made your notebook entry and when you made 3 your statement on 27 April, did you record the names of 4 everybody that you recognised? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And if we go to the next paragraph, 23, you deal with 7 Stacey Bridgett there. 8 A. Hm-mm. 9 Q. And you describe him, and then halfway down you say he 10 had blood coming from his nose and was in the crowd 11 pushing forward. You say you didn't hear him saying 12 anything to anyone, nor exactly where he was in the 13 crowd. We know his blood got on to Robert Hamill's 14 jeans. From what you saw him doing, do you think that 15 happened while you were watching him; in other words, 16 was he close enough when you saw him for that to have 17 happened? 18 A. I don't believe so, no. 19 Q. And then in paragraph 24 you talk about Dean Forbes and 20 how, in essence, inseparable Stacey Bridgett and he 21 were. And going over the page on that paragraph, you 22 say, top line: 23 "I have known them so long that I knew their manner 24 was aggressive." 25 Are you clear about that? 107 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Their evidence has been, "Nothing to do with me. I 3 wasn't there. I was watching it from a safe distance. 4 I was a calm spectator who was not involved." What do 5 you say to that? 6 A. I disagree. 7 Q. If we go to paragraph 34 -- sorry, my page numbers are 8 out, so I'm not going to be able to help on which page 9 it is. Thank you. You tell us there you have no memory 10 of who taped the area although the serious crime log and 11 your notebook entry suggest it was you. That's the 12 position, is it, still? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. If we look at the serious crime log at [10995], in the 15 middle section, details of persons who enter the 16 designated scene area, the first person is you and its 17 time of arrival, 07:27; departure is 08:13. You don't 18 record anybody else as arriving or entering the scene. 19 So would you have recorded that accurately at the time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you tell us your understanding in 1997 of who was 22 responsible for scene preservation after a public order 23 incident? If you can't recall, you can't recall. All 24 right. 25 We have identified your record of training and on it 108 1 there is no training for scene preservation. Is that 2 because you didn't have any? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. The response car that you were in, did that have any 5 crime scene tape? Can you help? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Can you help with whether it was a normal situation for 8 support vehicles to have crime scene tape? 9 A. I'd say sometimes you would have got tape in some of the 10 cars, but not all of the time. 11 Q. All right. We know that somebody used Allister Hanvey's 12 ATM card to take money out of an ATM in the middle of 13 Portadown at 8.46. Were you still there, by any chance? 14 A. No. 15 Q. I'm not suggesting you took the money out. 16 A. Oh, right. 17 Q. I was just wondering whether you had seen. If we go 18 back to your statement at paragraph 35 on the next page, 19 you tell us: 20 "No message had come back to me about the 21 seriousness of Robert Hamill's injuries and the 22 requirement to tape the scene didn't suggest to me that 23 the incident had become more serious." 24 We know from some officers who actually went over 25 and looked at and listened to Mr Hamill while he was on 109 1 the ground, that he had breathing difficulties. Was 2 there any discussion at all between officers at the 3 scene about what was going on and what had happened to 4 the men on the ground, in particular about the 5 seriousness of the injury? 6 A. No, not that I recall. 7 Q. Okay. No attempt by a sergeant or inspector there to 8 gather people round and ask what had happened or -- 9 A. No. 10 Q. -- what the seriousness was? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And if we look at paragraph 37 over the page, you say 13 you didn't attend any briefings or speak to the sergeant 14 or a detective constable about it or the inspector. 15 Somebody presumably told you to make a statement, did 16 they, or did you do that off your own bat? 17 A. I think it was whenever we went back to the station 18 after being relieved at the scene, that was what 19 everybody was doing, making statements. 20 Q. Do you recall whether the sergeant or the inspector were 21 still at the station by the time you got back to do 22 that? 23 A. Not as far as I'm aware, no. 24 Q. Okay. So when did you realise that this was a serious 25 assault? 110 1 A. I couldn't obviously say -- honestly say. Possibly the 2 next night. 3 Q. But not until after you had made your statement. Would 4 that be fair? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. And then if we look at page [48734], this is 7 a message form, and if we pick up the middle section, 8 this is information: 9 "Rough details of man who approached me at junction 10 the Woodhouse Street and Church Street", and this is the 11 record that you made in May. 12 If we go back to the main text of this, you see the 13 date of it: 19 May 1997. Can you just expand on how it 14 came about that you came to complete that message form? 15 A. I think I was spoken to by the DS, Portadown CID, and he 16 said that he had had information that this man had 17 approached a policewoman and it was then that I recalled 18 what had happened that night. 19 Q. Then if we go to the last page of your statement, 20 perhaps a little before, in paragraph 40, the final four 21 lines or so you say: 22 "My response is that Lunt WAS arrested by CID. I 23 don't know if it would have made any difference to the 24 murder investigation had I identified Lunt earlier or 25 whether it may have led to an earlier arrest." 111 1 Can I just ask you what the status of your detention 2 of him was? He obviously didn't come quietly to the 3 back of the Land Rover. What power were you exercising 4 in order to get him into and keep him in the Land Rover? 5 Was he in fact under arrest? 6 A. He was not, no. I don't know what the power would have 7 been. 8 Q. All right. Then if we go to your paragraph 41, you talk 9 about the advice you had about the disciplinary 10 procedure. And then in the second sentence of that you 11 tell us about a condition you have got as a result of 12 this and other incidents. And part of this condition 13 has been caused by the way you were treated afterwards. 14 Are you saying there that part of your condition 15 results from what you saw and what happened to you on 16 the night of 27 April? 17 A. That would be part of my condition, yes. 18 Q. Is that because it was such a riotous situation, or 19 what? 20 A. It was a very scary situation to be in, yes. 21 Q. Can you help us with what in particular was scary 22 about it? 23 A. The fact that we were very close to being overrun by 24 a crowd of rioters. 25 Q. If you had had the opportunity to arrest Dean Forbes and 112 1 Stacey Bridgett, for example, for affray, would you have 2 felt that was justified? 3 A. I didn't actually see them doing anything, you know. 4 They were in the crowd, you could have arrested the 5 whole crowd, you know, but I didn't see them doing an 6 individual -- 7 Q. Did you see any individual doing anything worse than 8 them? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So this very scary riotous situation in which you were 11 nearly overwhelmed involved them as much as anybody 12 else; is that fair? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I want to ask you some questions that I'm asking all 15 officers at the scene. Did you do, or fail to do, 16 anything on the night because you had a particular view 17 about Catholics? 18 A. Absolutely not. 19 Q. We have heard from a witness that a number of people 20 were seen by him to be kicking Robert Hamill and that he 21 attempted to pull those people off and that police 22 officers helped him and that they succeeded in pulling 23 people off. Did you see any of that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And a final point: did you have any other experience of 113 1 seeing or being in a Land Rover in the centre of 2 Portadown on public order duties? 3 A. Have I seen? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. We have a witness who said that he, on more than one 7 occasion, had seen fighting going on in the middle of 8 Portadown and police sitting in a Land Rover and not 9 getting out. I think the inference might fairly be 10 because it was light policing and these fights didn't 11 generally involve much injury. 12 Do you have any experience of either being in a Land 13 Rover or seeing people in a Land Rover not getting out 14 whilst such fighting was going on? 15 A. Never. 16 MR UNDERWOOD: As I said, other people may have some 17 questions, but those are mine. Thank you. 18 MR FERGUSON: No questions. 19 MR McGRORY: I have some questions, sir. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 21 Questions by MR McGRORY 22 MR McGRORY: Constable A, I'm going to ask you some 23 questions on behalf of the family of Robert Hamill. 24 I want just to ask you about the process you entered 25 into in seeking to identify Wayne Lunt when you had him 114 1 in the Land Rover. At page [06592], we have some of the 2 transcript that we heard earlier of the exchange that 3 you had with another police constable when you were 4 seeking to ascertain Mr Lunt's identity. It is Constable Godley. 5 Now, the top half of the page, at 02:01.55, this is 6 where you are exchanging with him about the possible 7 residence of Mr Lunt: 8 "They used to live on [such and such a place], but 9 I am under the impression that they have moved out the 10 [something] somewhere." 11 Now, there is a Christian name there. I'm not going 12 to mention that Christian name, but I'm suggesting to 13 you that it's Constable Adams. If you would please check your list 14 of ciphers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is Constable Adams the policeman to whom the gentleman is referring 17 when he mentions that Christian name, and that he would 18 answer to R/Con Cornett that night? 19 A. I assume so, yes. 20 Q. Said: 21 "He might be able to help you on that, over." 22 And then you reply: 23 "Roger, that's okay. He has cleared it with me." 24 Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 115 1 Q. Now, are you absolutely sure that you spoke to Constable 2 Adams? Do you have a recollection of it? 3 A. I don't, I am afraid. 4 Q. No. You see, what I suggest to you is that when you 5 write up your notebook later, you don't in fact record 6 that you spoke to Constable Adams. Do you accept that 7 without going through the notebook? 8 A. I would accept that, yes. 9 Q. Yes. And, indeed, in the material that we have got so 10 far from Constable Adams, he doesn't seem to recount that you asked 11 him to confirm Mr Lunt's identity. Is it possible that 12 you let Mr Lunt out of the Land Rover without in fact 13 confirming precisely who he was? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You see, because the way you went about this was to ask 16 if he was on the electoral register? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would it not have been easier to ascertain his date of 19 birth from Mr Lunt? 20 A. I'm not sure how that would have helped me, sorry. 21 Q. Would it not be a common way for police officers to 22 ascertain someone's identity; that is, to ask them their 23 date of birth? 24 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean, as a first question? 25 MR McGRORY: As a first question -- or even a second 116 1 question. Name and date of birth, obviously. After you 2 have ascertained the name? 3 A. Yes. I still don't know how that would have helped me, 4 sorry. 5 Q. Well, what I'm suggesting to you is that when you find 6 out somebody's name and you want to know whether or not 7 this is somebody in relation to whom the police might 8 have an interest, do you understand me? 9 A. I wasn't radioing to see if the police had an interest 10 in Mr Lunt. I was radioing to ascertain his address for 11 any follow-up proceedings that may occur, and to confirm 12 his address. 13 Q. Right. So the purpose of you contacting base camp, so 14 to speak, wasn't to see whether or not this was someone 15 who ought to be let go or not at this point? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. You see, what I'm suggesting to you here is that in fact 18 it would appear from the transcript, Constable A, that 19 there is no conclusion in terms of your contact with the 20 gentleman on the other side of the radio, as to who this 21 man was precisely and what his address was. Certainly 22 that exchange -- it doesn't appear to be concluded. Do 23 you agree with that? 24 A. I would agree with that, yes. 25 Q. And the problem I have and that I'm putting to you is 117 1 that there is no other evidence, other than -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, Mr McGrory that's not the way 3 I read that page we have got on now. The radio 4 controller says he is under the impression that Lunt's 5 family have moved out, and I think he says where. And 6 then the witness says -- and he says: 7 "You may be able to get help from B70." 8 And then you say: 9 "Yes, that's okay" -- or the witness says: 10 "That's okay, he has cleared it with me." 11 Doesn't that sound as though she has received some 12 confirmation, if that makes any sense? 13 MR McGRORY: Yes, but the difficulty that I have and that 14 I'm putting to this witness, sir, is that we can't 15 address this fully until we speak to the next witness. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not this witness's problem. You are 17 suggesting that this page shows that she hadn't got 18 information about where Lunt lived. I'm simply saying 19 the way I read it, it looks as though she has had some 20 confirmation of the suggestion made by the controller. 21 MR McGRORY: Well, certainly, I accept that, sir. Certainly 22 you haven't noted anywhere, constable, just in what 23 respect it was cleared with you, have you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. In the sense that the other policeman, Constable Adams, 118 1 you have taken no record as to which of those two 2 addresses he felt was the correct one? 3 A. No, I have made no record of it, no. 4 Q. So in terms of the extent to which it was cleared up, it 5 was only that it might be either one of those addresses. 6 Do you accept that? 7 A. I'm assuming that -- I'm assuming that the address that 8 I have been given was the correct one. 9 Q. Given by Constable Adams? 10 A. Given by Lunt to me, was the correct one. 11 Q. Is it not the case, witness A, that frequently police in 12 situations like this have another purpose for 13 ascertaining someone's identity and that's not just for 14 future reference in terms of future proceedings, but to 15 see whether or not this is someone who perhaps is 16 someone that should be held on to; do you understand me? 17 A. Say that if a constable or member of the police have had 18 dealings with that person, and maybe know the history of 19 that person, that they could radio and check to confirm 20 it, but I certainly had no dealings with Lunt before. I 21 had never met him before. 22 Q. You see, you weren't appraised in this brief exchange 23 that Lunt in fact might have been on bail for another 24 offence? 25 A. That's the first I have heard of it, today. 119 1 Q. Would that have altered your course had you been told he 2 is on bail for riotous behaviour or something? Would 3 you have held on to him? 4 A. I don't know whether I would have or not. I probably 5 would have asked for help on that, you know, from my 6 inspector or sergeant. 7 Q. Yes. If I could move on, Constable A, to the issue of 8 the man, or two men, coming over to you and saying: 9 "Look" -- just after you have let him go: 10 "That's one of the ones that did it." 11 You didn't note that at the time. In fact, when you 12 went back even to the police station -- your notebook is 13 on page [09982], you see 01:57 there -- yes, thank you. 14 This is your recording of basically what had happened, 15 and you say at the end of that passage that you now know 16 this male to be Wayne Lunt and there you do give his 17 date of birth? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How did you get his date of birth when you were making 20 up the note? 21 A. I have obviously asked Lunt for his date of birth. 22 Q. You have asked Lunt for his date of birth? 23 A. Hm-mm. 24 Q. Where do you make this note, because you say in your -- 25 to refer to you now, I just want to let you know that 120 1 you say in your statement at [81694] at the beginning of 2 paragraph 36: 3 "I returned to the station and completed my notebook 4 entries..." 5 Can you help us just as to how much of the notebook 6 was completed back at the station and how much was done 7 perhaps on the scene? 8 A. It would have been very little, if any, done at the 9 scene. 10 Q. You see, it is just that the notebook entry -- sorry, if 11 I can return to that -- says: 12 "I now know this male to be Wayne Lunt, 15/6 ..." 13 It gives a date of birth? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That would suggest, I'm putting to you, a further 16 enquiry was made, perhaps not of Lunt himself? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Back at the station; no? 19 A. No, it is just terminology. It is how I would say 20 90 per cent of police make their statements: 21 "I now know this male, this person to be ..." 22 Q. You see, what I'm trying to get to the bottom of, 23 constable, is how this exchange could have taken place 24 with these individuals about you having just released 25 Mr Lunt and that not being recorded in your notebook. 121 1 So are you telling us that you must have made this 2 entry reasonably soon after ascertaining his date of 3 birth? 4 A. No. 5 Q. No. 6 A. I would have got the details from the coms man. 7 Q. Sorry, the who? 8 A. Sorry, the communications. I would have gone in, "Get 9 me those details I radioed to you" and I would have made 10 my note with that. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you saying you radioed Lunt's date of 12 birth to the communications -- 13 A. I would have done, yes. 14 MR McGRORY: You see, one of the reasons why I'm asking 15 these questions about the date of birth is that we don't 16 appear to have an entry in the communications record of 17 the date of birth being mentioned. 18 A. I can't -- 19 Q. Can you explain that? 20 A. No, I can't, sorry. 21 Q. But in any event, if you are telling us that you got the 22 date of birth from Mr Lunt himself -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- then you must have made this entry within 25 a reasonable period of time after getting that 122 1 information from him. Minutes? 2 A. No. 3 Q. No? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So are you saying that you retained that information in 6 your head? 7 A. That information would have been held with the 8 communications officer. 9 Q. By the communications officer? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Well, can you assist us at all as to when you made that 12 entry in your notebook? 13 A. I would assume at the end of duty. 14 Q. Can you assist us as to when that was? You didn't 15 finish duty until after you left the police station, 16 I take it? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Would it have been at that point? 19 A. It would have been at that point. I wouldn't have left 20 the station without making up my notebook. 21 Q. So are you saying that the most likely time for making 22 this entry was much later in the morning, before you 23 left the police station? 24 A. It would have been, yes. 25 Q. But then you must have made an enquiry with the 123 1 communications people if you say that you would have 2 told them his date of birth? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you understand me? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You must have made a further enquiry when you were 7 writing up your notebook, to put that in? 8 A. I radioed communications with the details and the 9 details come back that the address was correct that I 10 had been given. When I returned to the station, I would 11 have got the details back off the communications officer 12 to make up my notebook. 13 Q. Well, I just have to remind you, Constable A, that that 14 is not recorded. So I am suggesting to you that some 15 time back at the police station you had some further 16 conversation with somebody about Lunt's identity during 17 which exchange the date of birth was raised? 18 A. It never happened, no. 19 Q. And what I'm suggesting to you is puzzling about this is 20 that at no point when making your notebook entry, do you 21 mention the fact that you were approached about this 22 man? 23 A. That's correct, I wasn't. I didn't make an entry. 24 Q. And is your explanation that you just forgot about it? 25 A. Forgot completely about it. It is an honest answer. 124 1 There is nothing sinister about it. 2 Q. Let me make this clear, Constable A: I'm not suggesting 3 that there is anything sinister about your failure to 4 note this. Let me make that very clear. I'm not 5 suggesting that you thought in any way, "I'll compromise 6 this because the victim is a Catholic" or anything. I'm 7 just trying to get to the bottom of the seriousness of 8 the omission. 9 I want to come on to that because you say in your 10 statement that he was eventually arrested by CID and you 11 don't know what impact your failure to make that 12 information available on the night had on the 13 investigation. But let me ask you some questions about 14 your experience as a police officer. How long had you 15 been on the force at this point? 16 A. Seven years. 17 Q. Seven years. So you would have been aware as a police 18 officer of some seven years' experience that every 19 little piece of information in an investigation after 20 a serious incident could be of relevance. Do you accept 21 that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that those who were charged with the investigation 24 end of it could potentially have been compromised in 25 their investigation by not having been given 125 1 a significant piece of information? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that in fact potentially you had a suspect in a very 4 serious assault in the Land Rover? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In respect of whom you had been told by an observer that 7 he had been guilty of the serious assault. Do you 8 accept that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So what you have omitted to detail is in fact a very, 11 very valuable piece of evidence in the investigation? 12 A. I agree, yes. 13 Q. Do you accept that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. I can't ask you to do any more, Constable A. 16 Now, in terms of what you were asked about the 17 events when you went back to the police station, people 18 have mentioned to you about debriefings and so forth. 19 In your seven years of experience as a police officer, 20 to what extent had you ever been debriefed before? Do 21 you know what I mean by a debriefing? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In other words, that somebody sits down with you and 24 asks you for a detailed account of what had happened; 25 a supervisor or somebody of that kind? 126 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So how many times had you been debriefed before? 3 A. Very few. 4 Q. But you had been the subject of debriefings before? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And on this evening in question, you would know who your 7 supervisors were. There was a sergeant who was 8 present -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- that night and, indeed, an inspector? 11 A. Hm-mm, yes. 12 Q. Did either of those gentlemen approach you to ask you 13 some questions as to what might have happened? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And the important detail about what you had been told 16 that Mr Lunt had done, had somebody asked you to recount 17 the events, do you think you would have been likely to 18 have remembered that information at that time? 19 A. Possibly, yes. 20 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much. 21 A. Thank you. 22 Questions by MS DINSMORE 23 MS DINSMORE: Constable, I appear on behalf of Robert Atkinson. Now, do 24 you need a moment just to brace yourself? 25 Do you recall earlier on this afternoon you said you 127 1 didn't recall seeing Robert Atkinson at the scene? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that still the position? 4 A. It would be, yes. 5 Q. I wonder, could we have up page [81686], please? Do you 6 know who Robert Atkinson is? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you would know Robert Atkinson, wouldn't you? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Well, if we could call up and if we could just go to 11 paragraph 10, the top paragraph. And if we look at 12 that, if we just go about seven lines down, it reads: 13 "There were about four or five officers I saw at that 14 stage. I recognised Reserve Constable P40 and five 15 other police constables, of which one was Robert Atkinson." 16 What you said is you recalled them at the scene, but 17 you couldn't recall what any of them were doing. 18 Now, is your position today that either that's 19 wrong -- that's your statement to the Inquiry -- or when 20 you think about it, in fact you did see Robert Atkinson was present 21 and you were aware of his presence? 22 A. I just can't recall him. 23 Q. Can you recall any of those persons? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you recall them all except Robert Atkinson? Is there any of the 128 1 others you can't recall? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Well, can you tell us who the others are you can't 4 recall? If you just want to go through each of them. 5 P40, can recall P40? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You definitely can't recall P40? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know who P40 is? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you are quite satisfied that you have no recall of 12 him whatsoever? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. And what about the next officer, which is R/Con Cornett? 15 Can you recall R/Con Cornett being at the scene? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't? So that's three of the officers who were in 18 the original land crew that you don't recall seeing at 19 all. And what about Reserve Constable Warnock? Can you recall him? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You can recall him? And what about Reserve Constable Silcock, 22 can you recall Reserve Constable Silcock? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And can you recall -- I understood that P40 and the 25 fifth policeman -- it may be my error; maybe, 129 1 Mr Underwood, you could assist us -- is one and the 2 same? 3 A. No. 4 Q. All right, I apologise for that. Then, do you recall 5 Constable Neill? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You do recall Constable Neill. So of those, then, the only 8 ones that you can recall are Constable Neill and the other 9 two that you named were not part of the Land Rover crew? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, is there any reason at all why you think you can 12 recall, for example, Constable Neill? 13 A. I can recall Constable Neill because he assisted me with placing 14 Lunt into the rear of the Land Rover. 15 Q. Now, I think there is no dispute that Robert Atkinson was in fact 16 present. Now, it was a very hectic night; isn't that 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In fact, you have said it was a scary situation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you felt almost nearly overwhelmed, I think was the 22 word that you used? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you recall in your statement that you said people 25 had tried to pull this individual from you? 130 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Yes? And we find a reference to that at [81687], but 3 that's not in dispute. 4 So you find yourself in this hectic, difficult, 5 overwhelming situation, and there are persons about you 6 who are endeavouring to pull this individual from you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yes. And I have to suggest to you, insofar as he can 9 recollect, Robert Atkinson is of the view that he was one of the 10 persons who assisted you. 11 Now, would you have any reason to doubt that, 12 bearing in mind what you have said about there being 13 a number of persons endeavouring to pull someone from 14 you? 15 A. No, no reason to doubt it at all. 16 Q. You have no reason to doubt that recollection? 17 A. No. 18 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb? 20 MR McCOMB: Just a very few questions. 21 Questions by MR McCOMB 22 MR McCOMB: I represent, amongst others, Lunt and Bridgett 23 and others who were charged with the murder. 24 Can I just take you back as best as you can recall, 25 please, you have told us that you received a message at 131 1 01:47 on the 27th. Is that right? 2 A. Correct, yes. 3 Q. Take your time. If there is something you want to just 4 go back and check, please feel free to do so. 5 Where were you at 01:47? 6 A. When I got the call? 7 Q. When you received the call, yes, to go to the centre of 8 Portadown? 9 A. I think we were out quite a distance away from the town 10 centre. 11 Q. Were you on another duty at that stage or were you 12 coming back from finishing duty? 13 A. No, we were just covering the whole of the area. 14 Q. I see. And, again, any time any characters emerge, of 15 course you must remember not to mention their names. 16 So did you make it as quickly as you could to the 17 centre? Did you realise that there was considerable 18 urgency? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that back-up was needed as a matter of immediate 21 urgency? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you give any estimate as to how long it might have 24 taken you to get from where you were to the centre of 25 town? 132 1 A. I can't, I am afraid, sorry. 2 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea even of how far away you 3 were when you got the message? You say you were some 4 distance away. Would you be able to help us at all 5 about that? 6 A. I'm sorry, no. 7 Q. Might we assume it would be some minutes, but not very 8 many minutes, obviously? 9 A. I can only go by the timings in which we arrived. 10 Q. When you arrived anyway, did you come up through the 11 town -- is that right? -- or did you come from the 12 direction of St Mark's church towards the town? 13 A. We came in via Edward Street. 14 Q. There was a crowd there, but you weren't particularly 15 aware of what was going on at that stage; would that be 16 correct? 17 A. I can't recall, I'm sorry. 18 Q. But at some point as you were driving -- I think you 19 describe how you drove through the crowd, or past the 20 crowd -- you saw Mr Lunt, although you didn't know him 21 at the time, I understand? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. But you saw him and something drew your attention and 24 you chased him, but he got away? 25 A. Yes. 133 1 Q. And then did you turn the car round and then come back 2 into the town nearer the centre of town? 3 A. It is a one-way system. 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. So we were already on the other side of the road 6 whenever I saw Lunt, and we drove straight down there 7 towards the crowd in the Land Rover. 8 Q. I take it that when you ran after him, were you 9 accompanied by anybody else, or were you -- 10 A. No. 11 Q. -- by yourself? 12 A. By myself. 13 Q. So that's a short time, but you got back into the car 14 again; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, it appears that then you became involved -- and we 17 will come to this in a second or two -- with what was 18 happening on the ground, as it were, with the two 19 injured parties -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- and so on. I'll come back to that. But for 22 a period, then, you were involved in that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then you became aware of Mr Lunt again approaching 25 the crowd? 134 1 A. He was in the crowd. 2 Q. But you saw him as if he was running towards the crowd? 3 A. Initially. 4 Q. That's what initially drew your attention? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You are quite right. You then got hold of him this time 7 and took him over to the Land Rover? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you put him into the Land Rover? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, from the records we have seen today, from the log, 12 that would appear to be at about 01:55. He was already 13 in the Land Rover, brought in by yourself. Is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And at that stage you were radioing for information 17 about him. And in a nutshell, did he give you his 18 correct name and address? 19 A. Yes, he did. 20 Q. What I suggest to you, of course, is that when one looks 21 at the times, we are talking really about really 22 a matter of a few minutes at the very most from the time 23 that you arrived at the scene to this stage, and I'm 24 sure would you accept that? 25 A. Yes. 135 1 Q. Do you recall seeing one or two, or more, ladies beside 2 the bodies who were lying on the ground? 3 A. I recall seeing one. 4 Q. Yes. And was she beside whom we may now know to be 5 Mr Hamill; is that correct? 6 A. I don't know who the men were at that stage. She was 7 kneeling beside one of the bodies. 8 Q. Yes. And might there have been another woman there as 9 well attending to another person? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: "Might" doesn't give a meaningful answer, 11 does it? 12 MR McCOMB: Sorry, of course. You saw one person, one 13 female; is that right? And you didn't have any 14 conversation with her yourself? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you see any of your colleagues ministering to that 17 person or putting him into the recovery position? 18 A. I remember Reserve Constable Silcock -- 19 Q. Yes? 20 A. -- at one of the bodies also. 21 Q. You recall him being there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And indeed he has given evidence to that effect as well. 24 You do not recall seeing any of the Land Rover crew 25 there -- is that correct? -- from what you have just 136 1 said? 2 A. That would be correct. 3 Q. But again, in fairness to them, you were really there 4 for a very, very fleeting period of time -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- when we look at the timescale of your arrival, and 7 then you are dealing for the second time with Mr Lunt? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR McCOMB: Yes, thank you very much indeed. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Green? 11 Questions by MR GREEN 12 MR GREEN: Constable A, I ask questions on behalf of 13 Marc Hobson. 14 Now, Wayne Lunt was released from the rear of the 15 Land Rover at five minutes past two, and it was at that 16 stage that you rejoined your colleagues who were 17 endeavouring to contain the Protestant crowd in 18 Market Street. Isn't that right? 19 A. The crowd in Market Street, yes. 20 Q. And your colleagues were endeavouring to push that crowd 21 up towards West Street and Mandeville Street. Is that 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are you saying that when you joined your colleagues you 25 are not able to tell us which of your colleagues were 137 1 present with you? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. Can you not recall seeing Constable Neill at that time? 4 A. We were -- at that time we were all in a line. I don't 5 know even who was standing next to me at that stage. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: About how far apart would you be? 7 A. We would have been quite close together. 8 MR GREEN: Yes, you were forming a line. Were you linking 9 arms together? 10 A. No. 11 Q. But you were forming a line and trying to push the crowd 12 up the street? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were you succeeding at all in doing that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you describe the crowd as at that stage being 17 aggressive? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And whilst perhaps not individually doing anything that 20 would have merited an arrest, they were a hostile and 21 aggressive crowd as a unit; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it is at that stage that you are able to recognise 24 Dean Forbes and Stacey Bridgett; isn't that right? 25 A. That's correct, yes. 138 1 Q. Now, these are young men who you recognised at that 2 time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Isn't that right? From your general duties as a police 5 officer. You knew Marc Hobson in 1997; isn't that 6 right? 7 A. Could I just see my statement again? 8 Q. Yes, indeed. I can put this statement up at 9 page [81691], at paragraph 27. If you could just have 10 a look at that. And there you say: 11 "I also knew Marc Hobson since 1996 from seeing him 12 around Portadown..." 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, would you agree that a description of Marc Hobson 15 at that time would have been very short hair, overweight 16 with a goatee beard? 17 A. I can't recall. 18 Q. You can't recall. But did you not see Marc Hobson at 19 that time when you were assisting your colleagues 20 pushing the crowd up towards West Street and 21 Mandeville Street. Isn't that right? 22 A. I recall seeing them in the crowd at some stage. 23 Q. Do you see in paragraph 27 you are saying there that you 24 know Marc Hobson? 25 A. Yes. 139 1 Q. "... from seeing him around Portadown but I have never 2 arrested him; He was just another one of those faces 3 that pop up every now and then, and you get to know these 4 people." 5 Then you say: 6 "I did not see him at the scene of the incident." 7 Isn't that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR GREEN: Thank you. 10 Questions by MR ADAIR 11 MR ADAIR: Sir, now, I just want to ask you just a few 12 questions just to clarify a couple of things. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, if it will take more than 14 a minute or two, I think we had better give the 15 shorthand writer a break. 16 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you. Can I ask you this before we 17 break. There is another witness of mine here today, 18 Mr Adair, whom I think will be quite a while as well. I 19 don't know what Mr Underwood thinks, but it seems to be 20 rather late in the day to be starting him certainly. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm more in Mr Adair's hands than anybody 22 else. He's been here most of the day. I was hoping to 23 get him started at least. 24 MR ADAIR: I wonder could I talk to him in the interval. 25 Would it be helpful if you knew what his attitude was? 140 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 2 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you. 3 (4.25 pm) 4 (Short break) 5 (4.40 pm) 6 MR ADAIR: Sir, in relation to the next witness, Constable 7 Adams, his position is -- it is a matter for the Panel, 8 of course, but his position was that if there was a 9 possibility of running into tomorrow, he would prefer 10 to give the entire of his evidence in one tranche. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: But how long is it going to take? How long 12 will you be asking questions with the -- 13 MR ADAIR: 10 minutes. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: And how long will the rest of the other 15 witness take? 16 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I will probably be 20 minutes with 17 him, the next witness. So really very much a matter for 18 everybody else of whether they would be likely to take 19 more than about 40 minutes, I guess. 20 MR ADAIR: I'm in your hands, sir. The witness will do 21 whichever ... 22 THE CHAIRMAN: What will happen to tomorrow's timetable if 23 we don't go beyond this witness today? 24 MR UNDERWOOD: I am so sorry, I didn't hear half of that? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: What will happen to tomorrow's timetable if 141 1 we don't go beyond this witness today? 2 MR UNDERWOOD: Tomorrow is a very tight schedule. We are 3 likely to end up with knocking on into Friday. We are 4 already allowing some continuation of the third witness 5 tomorrow into Friday. I would rather not leach any 6 further. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we will carry on then and we will sit 8 tomorrow at 10 o'clock. If it will help. Yes? 9 Mr Adair? 10 MR ADAIR: Now, I want to ask you just a few questions about 11 your evidence and about just one other matter connected 12 with your evidence. 13 Now, you had mentioned, do you remember, describing 14 when you were at the scene seeing one of the police 15 officers who was at, I think was the word you used, one 16 of the injured parties. Do you remember him mentioning 17 that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. If we turn up page [81686], just for clarification you 20 will see about halfway down paragraph 11, if we 21 highlight paragraph 11, you identify that officer. Do 22 you see, about five or six lines down? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you say that: 25 "[He] was near one of the bodies giving first aid"? 142 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So when you say he was over at one of the bodies, he was 3 actually administering first aid? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. To one of those persons. Yes, thank you. 6 Now, I wanted to ask you this -- and I mean, 7 actually, I should have said, to ask the last witness 8 about this -- you have served as a police officer for 9 how long? 10 A. 14 years. 11 Q. 14 years. Now, you will understand that nothing has 12 been proven against any police officer to date in 13 relation to their actions surrounding the investigation 14 of the Hamill incident. So I'm asking you a general 15 question as to what your thoughts as a police officer 16 are and would have been back in 1997 as to this 17 scenario. 18 If one of your colleagues had phoned up one of the 19 potential suspects in the death of Robert Hamill and 20 told him, for example, to do something which would 21 prejudice the investigation -- do you follow what I'm 22 saying? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- and had told him effectively that he would keep him 25 in touch with how the investigation was going -- 143 1 I presume you have heard that type of allegation has 2 been made against an officer in this case? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is your attitude and would your attitude be if that 5 is proven to be true? 6 A. I would be absolutely disgusted. 7 Q. From your knowledge of those officers that you worked 8 with -- you had been in Portadown for a year, isn't that 9 right, at the time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Previously you had been in the MSU? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. From your knowledge of their personalities, working with 14 them day in daily, can you say whether they feel the 15 same or differently from you? 16 A. They would feel the same as me. 17 Q. Now, you told us that you worked -- well, I'm not quite 18 sure whether you did actually tell us, but it is in your 19 Inquiry statement that you worked with the MSU, which is 20 the Mobile Support Unit? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you had worked with the Mobile Support Unit for 23 about four years prior to moving to Portadown? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The Mobile Support Unit, the Panel will probably have 144 1 realised, is the unit that is called in whenever there 2 is trouble going on that the local police can't handle? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you were part of that, were you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are there many ladies in it, or were there many ladies 7 in it? Please don't take any of these questions the 8 wrong way, incidentally. I'm just trying to enquire 9 factually: Were there many ladies involved in the MSU? 10 A. You possibly would have had one woman per unit at that 11 stage. 12 Q. One woman per -- and how many were in a unit? 13 A. One, four and 24. 14 Q. I'm sorry? 15 A. One, four and 24. One inspector, four sergeants, 16 24 constables. 17 Q. So about 29 people? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And one of those would be, in those days -- I don't know 20 if it is different now -- would be a woman? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were you expected to do the same type of riot control 23 work as the men? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you carry out the same type of riot control work as 145 1 the men throughout the years in the MSU? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Looking back now, did that influence your thinking as to 4 why you jumped out of the car and chased this man we now 5 believe to be Lunt in the midst of what was obviously 6 a pretty hectic situation? Was it your training with 7 the MSU, or why was it you did that? 8 A. It was just my training full stop, as a police 9 constable. 10 Q. In the MSU we know that they attend various riot scenes 11 and other types of situations that are going on. Going 12 back to 1997, did you have -- whatever this word 13 "briefing" or "debriefing" means -- debriefings after 14 public order situations when you were a member of the 15 MSU? 16 A. Sometimes we would have, yes. 17 Q. And what would that involve? 18 A. If we were deployed to an area that we didn't know, for 19 instance, say, we were deployed to Belfast, the 20 debriefing would consist of letting us know, like, what 21 road we started on, you know, we turned left down 22 Ainsworth Avenue or, you know -- it was just to get 23 street name, et cetera, timings and place. 24 Q. But there may be some misunderstanding amongst -- we 25 here are not police officers -- as to what debriefings 146 1 are. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. Are 2 you saying that the debriefings you are talking about 3 was to fill you in with information which may not have 4 been within your own personal knowledge because you were 5 in a strange area? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And possibly that's just one scenario. What other type 8 of debriefing would you have received? 9 A. Within the MSU or ...? 10 Q. We will start with MSU. 11 A. Well, if a riot situation had taken place, you know, you 12 would have got details that plastic could be fired and 13 you would be given the time that that order was given. 14 Q. I'm talking about debriefing as opposed to briefing now. 15 A. Yes, no, on debriefing a plastic was fired and an order 16 was given, you would be given the timing that that order 17 was given. 18 Q. So were debriefings, were they meant to get out whatever 19 personal information you had about the incident or was 20 that left to the making of a statement? 21 A. You would have got out, you know -- I don't really 22 understand the question, I'm sorry. 23 Q. All I'm trying to find out is what happened on 24 a debriefing. At the time you had your debriefings, 25 were all the officers in one room? 147 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you ever, for example, attended court to give 3 evidence about a riot situation you were in? 4 A. I don't believe I have, no. 5 Q. Have you ever heard suggestions made by lawyers acting 6 on behalf of defendants where policemen or women have 7 got together in a room after the event and the 8 suggestion is very often made that they have got 9 together and made up their stories together -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- and put in names because one officer mentions one 12 name and the other latches on? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You have heard that being talked about in the police? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That's what I'm trying to find out: were debriefings 17 held communally or individually? 18 A. They would have been held as a section or a unit. 19 Q. So, therefore, were the details of what you had seen or 20 who you had seen discussed in that communal situation in 21 these debriefs? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So, then, how was the information about what you had 24 seen or who you had seen -- how was that imparted to the 25 investigating team? Was that by a statement or -- 148 1 A. By your statement and your notebook entry. 2 Q. Yes. Then leaving aside the MSU for a moment, going to 3 your time in Portadown, had you been in other public 4 order situations while a constable? 5 A. As an ordinary uniformed constable? 6 Q. Yes, yes. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was this the only one? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were you surprised there wasn't a debriefing, or not? 11 A. I was a bit surprised. We didn't really know what was 12 happening, you know. We didn't know the extent of 13 injuries to Mr Hamill, et cetera, so, yes, I was a bit 14 surprised about that. 15 Q. Was your surprise before or after you discovered the 16 extent of the injury; in other words, at the time when 17 it was known -- sorry, it wasn't known whether the 18 injuries were serious, would you have expected a debrief 19 at that stage? 20 A. Not necessarily, no. 21 Q. We know that it did become known, I think around about 22 4 am in the morning when the Inspector phoned the 23 hospital, that the injuries were serious. And you were 24 still on duty until, I think it was 8 o'clock in the 25 morning? 149 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So are you saying that you are surprised you didn't 3 receive a debrief once it became known the injuries were 4 serious? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Yes. And what would you have expected the nature of 7 that debrief to be? 8 A. That -- I would have expected that CID would have held 9 it and that any names and anything that we had witnessed 10 was given to CID. 11 Q. In what way? Are you saying other than by a statement, 12 or ...? 13 A. I would say just by the statement, you know. 14 Q. Well, that didn't happen. We know that did happen. You 15 were asked to make a statement. Sorry, I think your 16 evidence is you simply made a statement, I think was 17 your evidence. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So I know you had done that. So is there something else 20 that you expected to be debriefed about? You made 21 a statement setting out what you had seen and what you 22 had done. 23 A. Just really about the state that, you know, that 24 Robert Hamill was in, you know. I would have liked to 25 have known that, you know, at the time. 150 1 THE CHAIRMAN: A debriefing is much more concerned with what 2 you can tell those in charge of any investigation than 3 information they may pass on to you, do you follow? 4 A. Yes. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Mr Adair is wanting to know what's 6 the kind of information you would pass on to those 7 dealing with the investigation, and how? 8 A. Well, if it was a one-on-one, you know, if the 9 debriefing had happened, you know, I possibly could have 10 been asked, "What did you do? What about this boy Lunt, 11 you know, what happened there?" You know, and just 12 afterwards you would make a statement. 13 MR ADAIR: I think you've fairly said in answer -- I can't 14 remember to who -- that it might be, you have told us, I 15 think, that this information about the conversation 16 might have come out of your debrief. I think that's 17 your -- 18 A. The radio transmission, you mean? 19 Q. No, what you said about the man telling you that Lunt 20 had been involved in the incident. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Are debriefings -- are they two-way traffic or are they 23 the officer giving you the information and you giving 24 the officer information? What are they? 25 A. It would be a two-way. 151 1 Q. And is there not concern -- and, again, help us with 2 this: Is there not concern, if it is a two-way passing 3 of information, about subsequent allegations being made 4 of fabrication and collusion and so on? Is that not 5 talked about? Maybe it is not, I don't know. 6 A. It would have been talked about at the time, but I don't 7 know whether we would have ever got a briefing about it. 8 I think it would have just been ... 9 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about is the 10 interview you had with two senior officers in 2001. Do 11 you remember that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you were interviewed and you were first of all 14 served with what is called a Form 17/3? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which set out a number of allegations being made against 17 you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that was just about four years after the incident 20 had occurred; isn't that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And I think we can see your 17/3 at page [10717]. And 23 we will see that the date of it is 27 June and you 24 acknowledge the service on 3 July. So it is over four 25 years after the incident had occurred? 152 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you were interviewed, and am I right in saying that 3 you were subsequently admonished? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you accept that admonishment? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can I ask you this, first of all: I know you have 8 expressed upset about the way that occurred, and so on? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If you had been admonished for what you have today 11 accepted you failed to do -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- if you had been admonished three or four months after 14 this incident, would you have accepted it without 15 reservation? 16 A. Yes. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: That is asked in a very leading form. Mind 18 you, she is really your witness. 19 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir, it is and I thought it was 20 a non-controversial issue that I had discussed -- that I 21 had certainly mentioned to my friends before. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. 23 MR ADAIR: Did you become aware that the way you had been 24 admonished -- and the Inquiry may well hear evidence 25 about this in due course -- that the admonishment -- let 153 1 me ask you this: were you advised before you accepted 2 the admonishment that you could refuse to accept it? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You weren't? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Can you say now whether you are aware now that under the 7 codes and the regulations you should have been advised 8 that you could refuse to accept it? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you know you could refuse to accept it? At the time 11 you accepted it, did you know you could refuse to 12 accept it? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So let me ask you this question: can you say whether it 15 is the fact of the admonishment or the way that it 16 occurred that causes you concern? 17 A. The way that it occurred. 18 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you. 19 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD 20 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter. I'm sure it is my fault, 21 but there is a bit of confusion about your evidence on 22 one issue and that is whether you saw the four people 23 who were in the Land Rover in the first place out and 24 active. 25 You told me that you did and that they were out 154 1 doing their best, not able to be effective because they 2 were so outnumbered. Then you were asked specifically 3 about individual officers and you gave slightly 4 different answers. 5 Doing the best you can after all this time, can you 6 tell us what your settled position is on this? When you 7 arrived and when you saw the four from the first Land 8 Rover, were they or were they not out and about? 9 A. They were, yes. 10 Q. And to explore that a little bit further, were they 11 active and doing their best to control the situation? 12 A. They were, yes. 13 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it that you can't just lock someone in 15 the Land Rover and leave them? 16 A. No. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: They can get out? 18 A. Yes. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Whatever damage they might do? 20 Yes, thank you. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed. 22 A. Thank you. 23 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Constable Adams now, and the position 24 is, of course, that the family who have been out in 25 the press room can be present during this witness. 155 1 MR McGRORY: Somebody is away to get them. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much. 3 JOHN ADAMS (sworn) 4 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD 5 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. My name is Underwood, I'm 6 Counsel to the Inquiry. I have got some questions for 7 you and then it may well be that a few more will be 8 addressed to you by other people. 9 I'm not going to ask your name, but can you have 10 a look at a statement and see if it is yours. On screen 11 it will come up as [80001]. Can we just flick through 12 the six pages of this statement briefly? Is that your 13 statement? 14 A. Yes, that is my statement, yes. 15 Q. Is it true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Thank you. If we go back to the first page, 18 paragraph 3, you say on the night of 26 April you were 19 stationed at Portadown and on general patrol duties with 20 another officer whom we are calling [Reserve Constable 21 Silcock]. Can you tell us what your call sign was on 22 that occasion, if you can recall it? 23 A. From what I can recall, I think it was JB70. 24 Q. Thank you. If we look at page [03838], the final 25 paragraph of that is a note which is the result of an 156 1 investigation of which vehicles turned up when made on 2 12 June 1997: 3 "The first vehicle at the scene was the livery 4 Mondeo, followed within seconds by [what I take to be] 5 the armoured Ford Sierra, both these vehicles parked at 6 the junction of Thomas Street/Market Street." 7 The third vehicle, driven by another constable, then 8 turns up. Can you tell us which vehicle you were in? 9 A. I would have been in the first vehicle that arrived at 10 the scene. 11 Q. A livery Mondeo, you think? I don't want to put words 12 into your mouth. Can you recall what sort of car it 13 was? 14 A. I can't recall whether it was a livery vehicle or not. 15 I would assume it was an armoured vehicle, but whether 16 it was a liveried vehicle or not, I don't know. 17 Q. Thank you. Back on your page [80001], paragraph 3, you 18 tell us in the final sentence of that third paragraph: 19 "I have patrolled that area many times myself and 20 have seen a number of incidents there." 21 Obviously I'm going to ask you in a little more 22 detail in a moment about what it is that you saw on the 23 night and how the scene developed. Relatively speaking, 24 though, compared with the other incidents you 25 experienced there, how serious was the incident that we 157 1 are talking about? 2 A. It would have been fairly serious compared with the 3 other incidents. Other incidents would have been more 4 of a minor nature over the years. 5 Q. And we have had a witness, a civilian witness, who said 6 that he had been in Portadown on more than one occasion 7 when fights were going on and there was a Land Rover 8 parked there, a police Land Rover, and the police didn't 9 get out of the Land Rover. Have you any experience of 10 such a situation? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. You say in paragraph 4 that [Reserve Constable 13 Silcock], as we are calling him, and you heard a transmission 14 requesting assistance and the two of you headed off into the 15 town centre straight away. You entered via Edward Street. 16 We know there were barriers around the town? 17 A. Yes, correct, at that time, yes. 18 Q. Was Edward Street the only way you could get through? 19 A. Yes, it was the only entrance, past the police station. 20 Q. Okay. If we go over to page [80002], top paragraph: 21 "I also noticed two people lying on the road just at 22 the mouth of Thomas Street. Those two people were being 23 attended to by members of the public. There was no ambulance at 24 the scene." 25 Can you help us with the general event at the time 158 1 you arrived? Were there police on the street? 2 A. Yes, there were indeed, yes. 3 Q. Was there fighting? 4 A. There was no fighting as such. The people on the street 5 certainly were boisterous and shouting, but no fighting 6 as such when we arrived. 7 Q. Were the people who were lying on the ground being 8 attacked? 9 A. I have no recollection of seeing them being attacked 10 when we arrived. 11 Q. What action did you think was called for by you? 12 A. My initial reaction was to get out and to deal with the 13 crowd that was there, and when I got out of the vehicle, 14 I just went to the closest group that I met as I got out 15 of the vehicle to deal with them. 16 Q. You said they were boisterous. In what way did they 17 need dealing with? 18 A. To keep them back from the opposing crowd that was on up 19 the street. 20 Q. Was this a neat division between two crowds trying to 21 get at each other, or what? 22 A. In what way do you mean "a neat division"? 23 Q. You are saying you needed to deal with the crowd and 24 you've developed that by saying you needed to keep, in 25 a sense, the opposing sections apart? 159 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were there nice neat lines of Protestants and Catholics, 3 or were there lots of little groups, or how was it? 4 A. There would have been two separate groups: the 5 Protestants on up the streets and the Roman Catholics 6 were just about the entrance of Woodhouse Street, about 7 that area. 8 Q. If we look at the model, we have a standard model I 9 would like to show you. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. This is the shot taken essentially from outside 12 Eastwoods. For a start, we put the Land Rover over 13 there for people to comment on, agree or disagree 14 whether that was its position. Can you help us about 15 whether there was the Land Rover there? 16 A. Yes, it was in that general area. It was somewhere -- 17 as to what way it was facing, I know it was facing down 18 the street, but whether it was facing into -- which you 19 diagram seems to indicate, into the mouth of 20 Woodhouse Street, I don't know or it was facing down the 21 street, but I know it was in that general area. 22 Q. Do I get it right then that the Catholic group was over 23 towards the Land Rover? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The other side of the Land Rover or this side? 160 1 A. I wouldn't be sure about that, to be honest. I wouldn't 2 be sure about that. 3 Q. Were the Protestants nearer where the photographer is? 4 A. They would be back up somewhere towards where Clarks 5 shop is, or that area. 6 Q. To the left then? 7 A. To the left, yes. 8 Q. We can swing this scene around if we need to, but does 9 this scene include the area where the two people on the 10 ground were or do we need to go to the left or the 11 right? 12 A. That's only showing one side of the carriageway, if I'm 13 right. 14 Q. If we go round to the left, you will get a better view 15 of what it shows you. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You just see the side of Eastwoods on the immediate left 18 of the -- 19 A. Okay, yes. 20 Q. And the central reservation is that thin grey line 21 running up towards the church. Would it be better if 22 I showed you a map? 23 A. No, I think I can manage with that all right, yes. 24 Q. Does this scene that we have got on the screen at the 25 moment include the area where the two bodies were? 161 1 A. Probably a bit more down to the right of the screen. Go 2 back a wee bit. Yes, it was somewhere just -- 3 Q. I can give you control of this screen and allow you to 4 write on it, if you would. Perhaps we can do a screen 5 shot. Just doing the best you can for us when the 6 technology is enabling us to do it -- have you got the 7 white pen there? That will allow you to write on the 8 screen, if you would. 9 A. Just somewhere about there. I think, in that general 10 area. Again, there was two casualties. As to exactly 11 where each casualty was, I wouldn't be sure. 12 Q. If we go back to your statement at page [80002], 13 paragraph 6, you say: 14 "I estimated there were about 20 to 30 people in the 15 Protestant crowd. That crowd was chanting and cheering 16 and trying to push past the police officers who were 17 holding them back." 18 Is that your recollection now? 19 A. That's correct, yes. 20 Q. And you say there were only three or four officers at 21 that stage and they were known to be the officers in the 22 Land Rover? 23 A. That's correct, yes. 24 Q. That's still your recollection, is it? Then if we go 25 over the page to [80003], top of the page, paragraph 9, 162 1 you talk about one of the men in the group you were 2 with. And in the middle of that paragraph: 3 "The older man was chanting and shouting and he came 4 over after I'd arrived, perhaps down from 5 Woodhouse Street." 6 Did you see people coming down from Woodhouse Street 7 who had to be held back or is this just the group that 8 you observed when you started off? 9 A. It was just mainly the group that was there when we 10 arrived. Now, some of them may have left and, again, 11 been replaced by someone else coming up from 12 Woodhouse Street. 13 Q. The impression that this gives -- and see what you say 14 about this -- is that there were some officers who were 15 with the Protestants trying to keep them back and then 16 there were officers who were with the Catholics trying 17 to keep them away? 18 A. That's correct, yes. 19 Q. And you were part of the second group; is that right? 20 A. That's correct, yes. 21 Q. And if we look, please, at page [06592], this is part of 22 a radio transmission transcript and if we look at the 23 entry for 2:01.55, this is discussion between the lady 24 officer who we have just had. I think you know who she 25 is -- or did you not see her? 163 1 A. I didn't see her. 2 Q. We are calling her Constable A. Do you know who 3 that is? 4 A. Yes, okay, yes. 5 Q. This is a conversation between her over the radio and 6 the radio controller at the station, and she is asking 7 here about the address of a Wayne Lunt. And this is 8 part of a passage in which the address he is given isn't 9 the address being shown up on the details held in the 10 station. 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And the controller is saying I'm under the impression 13 that they have moved out somewhere: 14 "Constable Adams in B70 might be able to help you on 15 that, over." 16 And the officer says: 17 "Roger, that's okay. Constable Adams has cleared it with me." 18 Have you got a recollection of that? Of whether you 19 are the Constable Adams being spoken of? 20 A. I do not have a clear recollection of it, yes. But from 21 what we are saying now, yes, I would say it was myself 22 all right now. But as to the full details of what the 23 conversation was about, I can't recall at all now as to 24 what it was all about. 25 Q. Because it would follow from the evidence you have 164 1 given, would it, that you were quite close by the Land 2 Rover? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And if we go over to page [80004], paragraph 13 at the 5 top, you say: 6 "When I arrived back at the scene ..." 7 I'm sorry, I should just tell you that what passes 8 before this in your statement is that you had gone back 9 to help out, get a baton gun? 10 A. Yes, okay. 11 Q. You say: 12 "When I arrived back at the scene, the group which I 13 had been watching in Woodhouse Street had dispersed. 14 The Protestant crowd had not dispersed, but had been 15 moved up Market Street towards West Street. There was 16 an ambulance at the scene by then. I joined the other 17 officers moving the crowd up West Street." 18 So is that right, that you, as it were, had had your 19 time out going to get the baton gun, by the time you 20 came back the Catholics at Woodhouse Street weren't 21 a problem? 22 A. That's correct, yes. 23 Q. Can you help us with the atmosphere by this stage and 24 just what the Protestant crowd was doing and how they 25 were treating being moved up? 165 1 A. They was still shouting and getting on, like, from that 2 crowd when I arrived back there. I think actually the 3 ambulance went into the scene when we were back at the 4 police station. They would have had to come in the same 5 way past the police station. Maybe we met it on the way 6 to the police station, I can't recall, but ... 7 Q. Okay. And if we go to paragraph 14, you tell us about 8 Rory Robinson and escorting him offside. Final three 9 lines: 10 "He had been in the crowd earlier, but I didn't see 11 him do anything in particular. He didn't say anything 12 of significance to me as I escorted him." 13 That's escorted him back down the town? 14 A. Yes, okay. 15 Q. When you say you didn't see him doing anything in 16 particular, did you see him as part of the crowd, part 17 of the Protestant crowd? 18 A. I must have noticed him at some stage among that crowd 19 whenever I arrived back from the police station. 20 Q. But you can't help us with what he was doing? 21 A. No, I can't, no. 22 Q. Is there anybody else that you saw and recognised that 23 night who you didn't report in your notebook or your 24 statement afterwards? 25 A. No. 166 1 Q. Did you hold back from doing anything or do anything 2 because you have an attitude towards Catholics? 3 A. Absolutely not, no. 4 Q. And one other matter I want to ask you about: one of the 5 Catholic witnesses has told us that he helped pull 6 people who were kicking Mr Hamill off him and that 7 police officers came along and helped out and they were 8 successful in pulling the kickers off. Did you see or 9 take part in any of that? 10 A. I don't recall seeing that or taking part in that, no. 11 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. 12 MR FERGUSON: No questions. 13 Questions by MR McGRORY 14 MR McGRORY: I have very few questions. Are you still in 15 the police, sir? 16 A. That's correct, yes. 17 Q. I want to ask you a few questions on behalf of the 18 Hamill family, if you don't mind. I'll not keep you too 19 long. 20 Can you clear up for us just when you were shown the 21 entry in the exchange that the previous witness had -- 22 I'm sorry, I haven't got the ciphers to hand. It is 23 a female witness, Constable A, sorry -- Constable A had 24 with the base in the police station, the radio exchange 25 concerning Wayne Lunt's address? 167 1 A. Right. 2 Q. You were just asked that a moment ago and you said you 3 hadn't a clear recollection of being asked about that at 4 the time; is that correct? 5 A. I can't recall now whether I actually spoke to her on 6 the ground or whether I answered her on the radio to 7 confirm it. I don't know. 8 Q. Can I just tell you what you said about that when you 9 spoke to the Inquiry? It is in your statement at the 10 bottom of paragraph 15 on page 4 of your statement. You 11 say that: 12 "I do not think I knew Wayne Lunt at the time ..." 13 It is the very last line: 14 "... but I knew a xxxxxxxxxx, Wayne's brother." 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. This might be the answer to this. Have you any 17 recollection that you were asked about the Lunts' house? 18 A. That is a possibility as to confirm the address or 19 Something like that, because it -- rather than the 20 address for the individual, it might have been just for 21 the family. 22 Q. If you didn't know Wayne Lunt, how would you know he was 23 xxxxxxxxxx's brother? Is that something you now know or do 24 you think it was something you knew then? 25 A. Whether I knew it at the time or not, I don't know, I 168 1 couldn't say, or whether I had become aware of it since 2 then. I don't know. 3 Q. You don't know. I'll take that matter no further. 4 I just want to ask you a question about the people 5 you were holding back in Woodhouse Street. There were 6 two rival factions, you say? 7 A. That's correct, yes. 8 Q. That were being held apart. Would it be correct to say 9 that those that you were holding back from coming out of 10 Woodhouse Street were from the Catholic or Nationalist 11 side? 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 Q. Would it be reasonable to suggest that if you were 14 holding them back, there would be a reason for holding 15 them back? Were they getting upset at this point? 16 A. Well, obviously they were and there was potential for 17 further trouble if they got further up the street where 18 the Protestant crowd was being held back at the other 19 end. 20 Q. Yes, and would they have been shouting things at the 21 Protestant crowd? 22 A. Yes, they would have been, yes, but don't ask me what 23 was being shouted because there were hostilities being 24 shouted in both directions. 25 Q. We can imagine what they would have been -- 169 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Anyway, they were shouting sufficiently for you to get 3 worried that they needed to be held back? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In terms of any debriefings, you have heard the phrase 6 "debriefing" mentioned? 7 A. I have certainly, yes. 8 Q. Can you recall that night being asked any questions 9 about what happened? Did anybody sit you down and say, 10 "Look, what happened here?" 11 A. No, no. 12 Q. What is your impression of what a debriefing ought 13 to be? 14 A. Well, it would be a review of what has happened or 15 anything that needs to be done or anything that could be 16 learned from the incident. 17 Q. And would that be on a one-to-one basis or would you 18 have expected it to be in a group format, or what way 19 would they have occurred? 20 A. It could have been on a one-to-one or it could been in 21 a group for any officers involved in any incident. 22 Q. Was there a standard way of taking debriefings either on 23 one-to-one -- 24 A. I wouldn't have said there was any kind of standard way 25 of it being done. 170 1 Q. Had you them in both circumstances? Have you had 2 debriefings both on one-to-one and in a group? 3 A. Not on a kind of a regular basis as such, no. Any 4 incidents, you know, you would do -- if there was 5 anything to be passed on to your sergeant or anything in 6 the next section, they would be made aware of it at the 7 end of an incident or whatever, if anything needed to be 8 carried out, but no direct debriefings out of an 9 incident like that as such. 10 Q. Have you never had a debriefing after a public disorder 11 incident? 12 A. I can't say that I have really had a debriefing as such. 13 Debriefings probably were more appropriate if we were 14 doing a planned operation, a planned police -- say it 15 was a search or something like that. Then you would 16 come back in and there would be a kind of a debriefing 17 and a collation of who done what or what happened or 18 that type of thing, but not for the like of this. 19 Q. Yes. In other words, if there had been a specific 20 briefing about what you were going to do, then you would 21 have expected the debriefing after it was over? 22 A. That's correct, yes. 23 Q. But it wasn't your experience that there would be 24 a debriefing in the circumstances of this incident? 25 A. No. 171 1 Q. You made a statement that was date 27 April 1997. It is 2 not countersigned by anybody else. It is on 3 page [11051] and [11052]. Well, there is another name 4 there on the left-hand side at the top of the page. Do 5 you see that? P15 is the cipher given to that name on 6 the left-hand side; your own name is on the right-hand 7 side: 8 "By whom this statement was recorded and received." 9 Do you see that at the top of the page? It is 10 a printed signature, but it is ciphered at the moment, 11 [DS Lawther]. Have you got [11051] on the screen? 12 SIR JOHN EVANS: He is looking at the cipher. 13 MR McGRORY: Sorry, you are looking for the cipher, thank 14 you. Sorry, for some reason I have [DS Lawther] on mine but 15 there may be a new cipher. It is DS Lawther. 16 A. Okay, yes, I'm with you now. 17 Q. Have you got DS Lawther? 18 A. Yes, he is here. 19 Q. Sorry, I must have an old cipher on my statement. Was 20 that person with you when you made this statement; Ds Lawther? 21 A. I don't think so, no, I don't think so. 22 Q. You see, his name is printed there, where it says 23 "signature of member", but his signature doesn't appear 24 in this. That's what I'm saying to you. Is it your 25 recollection that he was with you? 172 1 A. I don't believe he would have been with me. I don't see 2 that he would have been with me. Obviously that's 3 a typed statement, so what was on the original statement 4 ... on the handwritten statement, I don't know. 5 Q. Then at the second page, [11052], there is another name 6 written in hand, yes, whom I believe is DS Bradley. If you 7 would have a look at DS Bradley? 8 A. Yes, that's okay, yes. 9 Q. Now, that's a signature this time? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Have you any recollection whether that policeman was 12 present? 13 A. No, I have no recollection. 14 Q. So I'm just trying to understand how these other two 15 policemen come to be involved in this statement. Did 16 you write it out by hand? 17 A. Yes, the statement would have been handwritten and then 18 typed up. 19 Q. And when you handed it over before you left -- did you 20 hand it over before you left that morning? 21 A. I would assume I did now, but I can't recall. Yes, I 22 probably would have left before I finished that morning. 23 Q. Can you remember to whom you gave this statement? 24 A. No, I can't. 25 Q. Was it countersigned in your presence? 173 1 A. I don't know, I couldn't say. 2 Q. But in any event, nobody read it over before you left 3 and asked you any questions about it? 4 A. No, I don't recall anyone asking me anything further. I 5 had done the statement and it was handed over to someone 6 from CID. 7 Q. Was there anyone else in the room when you did your 8 statement? 9 A. I can't recall. 10 MR McGRORY: You can't recall. Thank you very much. 11 A. Okay. 12 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions. 13 Questions by MR ADAIR 14 MR ADAIR: Just a couple of brief things. If we go back to 15 the previous page, [11052]. I'm not sure whether the 16 system is the same across the water as it is here, but 17 can you tell the Panel -- you see where it says, 18 "P84" [DS Lawther], signature member by whom the statement was 19 recorded or received. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When it says "received", what does that mean in your 22 understanding? We know what "recorded" means? 23 A. That officer -- that person received the statement 24 from me. 25 Q. Does it indicate at what stage he receives it from you? 174 1 A. No, there is nothing to indicate at what stage, no. 2 Q. Is that the typed statement he is referring to or is it 3 the original he is referring to? Do you follow? You 4 write out a handwritten statement? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who do you hand it to? 7 A. It would be handed -- in that case I would have handed 8 it to CID and my understanding is he would have signed 9 the handwritten statement and that statement then would 10 subsequently be typed and, therefore, his signature then 11 would be typed on to the typed statement. 12 Q. So do you know at what stage he received the statement? 13 A. No. 14 Q. If you go to the next page then, [11052], this other 15 signature, there is a handwritten signature on the typed 16 copy. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, again, I'm not sure if the system is the same 19 across the water, but are there typed statements made up 20 for preliminary enquiry in this jurisdiction? Are you 21 aware of that from your -- 22 A. I am indeed, yes. 23 Q. And during the course of preparing those typed 24 statements, does an officer certify that they are true 25 copies of the original? 175 1 A. That's correct, yes. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: The typed copy that we have tells its own 3 story. The witness made a statement himself in 4 manuscript. That statement, when it was completed and 5 no doubt signed, was handed to the other officer who 6 signed to show that he had either written it or received 7 it. Then we can see that that is, after that, typed up 8 and then it is certified as a true copy and signed, and 9 that's why one gets the signatures simply typed in. 10 MR ADAIR: That's right, sir. I wasn't sure whether the 11 same -- whether the same principles -- 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know, I'm sure. 13 MR ADAIR: -- applied over there. 14 SIR JOHN EVANS: They are the same forms. 15 MR ADAIR: Thanks. There is only one other thing I want to 16 ask you about and that is could I have page [09967], 17 please? Now, this is your notebook entry. Do you 18 see -- if we could highlight from 02:30 -- it appears you 19 left town with Inspector McCrum to supervise division; 20 is that right? 21 A. That's correct, yes. 22 Q. So are you his driver at that stage, essentially? 23 A. Essentially, yes, I was his driver from that point on, 24 yes. 25 Q. Can you remember where you went to? We know it covered 176 1 Lurgan, Banbridge, Portadown. 2 A. I couldn't say for definite that night. I probably went 3 to Lurgan and maybe Craigavon. Whether we went to 4 Banbridge or not that night, I don't know. 5 Q. Then 3.30, a break at station. Now, you see at 4.30: 6 "Resumed mobile as detailed, assisted CID 7 re enquiries regarding above incident. Obins Street 8 area." 9 What does that mean? 10 A. Obviously we were just providing cover to CID officers 11 that were going in to, like, follow up enquiries that 12 morning. 13 Q. Is this outside the station or inside the station, or 14 where is this because you say "resumed mobile"? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And "assisted CID." 17 I'm just trying to ascertain what that means? 18 A. It would have been -- mobile were told back-up to the 19 CID officers in the Obins Street area. 20 Q. Has it anything to do with this incident or is it to do 21 with some other incident? 22 A. It would have been to do with this incident, yes. 23 Q. That's what rather -- I mean, what CID officers was it 24 that you were assisting? 25 A. I couldn't recall now who it was, I couldn't recall. 177 1 Q. Okay. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: You have the advantage of us but is the 3 Obins Street area an area which includes the junction of 4 Thomas Street and High Street -- 5 A. It is from the bottom end of Woodhouse Street, you go 6 into Obins Street. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. 8 MR ADAIR: So it is the same area. It would be described as 9 being the same area as Woodhouse Street. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 11 A. That's correct, yes. 12 MR ADAIR: That's why I was asking what it meant. The 13 final thing I want to ask you is I take it you are aware 14 of the nature of some of the allegations that have been 15 made against a police officer in this case, concerning 16 phoning a suspect and so on? 17 A. Yes, I become aware of it some time after -- maybe years 18 after this event. 19 Q. If they are true -- and I emphasise if they are true -- 20 what is your attitude towards that officer? 21 A. I would be totally disgusted if that were true. It is 22 something that should never have happened, if it did 23 happen. 24 MR ADAIR: Thank you. 25 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you. 178 1 THE CHAIRMAN: You are free to go. 2 A. Thank you very much. 3 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We wonder about 10 o'clock in the morning in 5 view of the workload there is -- and things seem to 6 happen to find we miss 15 minutes here and 15 minutes 7 there. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: For safety's sake, 10 o'clock would certainly 9 be wise. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10 o'clock. 11 (5.35 pm) 12 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10 o'clock the following day) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 1 I N D E X 2 Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD ...................... 1 3 Submissions by MR ADAIR .......................... 16 4 Submissions by MR UNDERWOOD ...................... 26 GODFREY DEAN SILCOCK (sworn) ..................... 38 5 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 38 6 Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 53 7 Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 54 8 Questions by MS DINSMORE .................... 65 9 Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 66 10 Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 68 11 Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 70 12 Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 73 13 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 81 14 Application by MR McGRORY ........................ 83 15 A (sworn) ........................................ 88 16 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 88 17 Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 114 18 Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 127 19 Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 131 20 Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 137 21 Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 140 22 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 154 23 JOHN ADAMS (sworn) ............................... 156 24 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 156 25 Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 167 180 1 Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 174 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181