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Hearing: 25th February 2009, day 22
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Wednesday, 25th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 22
1 Wednesday, 25th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, sir. I call Glen Stewart, please.
4 MR ROBERT GLEN STEWART (sworn)
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Stewart.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
9 I will ask some questions of you to start with. It may
10 be, when I am finished, a few other people may ask some
11 more.
12 I am sure you know we are interested in the events
13 of the early hours of 27th April 1997.
14 Firstly, can I ask your full names?
15 A. My name is Robert Glen Stewart.
16 Q. Can I get you to look, please, at page [81204] on the
17 screen? If we go through the four pages of this
18 document fairly briefly, can I ask you to identify
19 whether that's a statement you have now signed for the
20 Inquiry?
21 A. Yes, that's a statement.
22 Q. Is it true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. I think you have made a statement on
25 8th May 1997, which we see at page [09188]. Again, if
1
1 we can look at the second page as well. Is that the
2 statement you made then?
3 A. Yes, that's the statement.
4 Q. In your witness statement for us you also refer to
5 an ambulance control form. Perhaps we can just have
6 a look at that to identify that. That's at page [08153]
7 and over at [08154]. Is that the form you are referring
8 to?
9 A. Yes, that's the form.
10 Q. Thank you. Now you tell us in your statement that you
11 came in the ambulance up Edward Street and into
12 Portadown town centre. We have a map. Again, we can
13 look at that. We can enlarge it and zoom in on it. We
14 have a model of the scene.
15 What I would like you to do, if you would, is mark
16 for us on one of them where you put the ambulance and
17 where you saw people. Would that be more convenient for
18 you on a map or a 3D model?
19 A. Can the map be enlarged?
20 Q. It can. If we zoom in. We can enlarge it even more,
21 I suspect. Does that work for you?
22 A. No. I need to see where Edward Street was.
23 Q. Let's go to the model, shall we?
24 A. Go to the model then.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you see Edward Street just on the right of
2
1 the map? It has gone now.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: We can move this round to the right somewhat,
4 this model we have on screen, and you can see down
5 towards where Edward Street was, but you can't see it
6 from here. We know you came up Edward Street and the
7 ambulance was then driven up this side.
8 Is this model sufficient for you to be able to mark
9 on it where the ambulance ended up and where you saw
10 people, or do you want to go back to the map?
11 A. I think I need to go back to the map.
12 Q. Sure. If we go round to the left a bit -- the other
13 way, sorry -- so that we can see Edward Street?
14 A. I see now.
15 Q. Is that scale all right for you now?
16 A. Yes, I see it now, yes.
17 Q. What we can do with this, I hope, is give you the
18 ability to mark on it. There's a pen there. Can you,
19 doing the best you can, help us with where the ambulance
20 stopped?
21 A. Well, I will do my best, but I know my recollection of
22 it -- it would be a while ago, you know.
23 Q. Of course.
24 A. We came down Edward Street and we took left. So
25 I reckon the ambulance would have been parked -- oh,
3
1 sorry.
2 Q. That's fine. Okay. We can mark that 1. You tell us
3 that you saw people on the ground.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Again, doing the best you can, can you mark the
6 positions of those people for us? You can see
7 Thomas Street coming up there and Woodhouse Street
8 leading off to the other side of the High Street, which
9 may give you your bearings.
10 A. I know the first casualty I went to was this side of the
11 road, if I can get this pen right.
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. If we just call that number 2 for the moment so that we
15 know where we are. Right. Yes?
16 A. Then further on up towards the church there was another
17 casualty.
18 Q. Uh-huh.
19 A. Near the verge, just over that, just where you get on
20 that side of the road, but it was this side of the road.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We will give that number 3. Thank you.
24 Now we have that context, can I get you to do the
25 best you can and describe the scene when you arrived in
4
1 terms of people milling around and such like?
2 A. Well, when we arrived at the scene, we actually pulled
3 over to the side of the road. In front of us we could
4 see a very hostile situation. There seemed to be
5 a crowd of -- I find it hard to say it in figures, but
6 I am sure there were 20 or 30. There seemed to be some
7 confrontation with the police and individuals, but when
8 we looked ahead, we could see casualties. We actually
9 asked for a back-up of another ambulance.
10 Q. So the hostile situation you have just described as
11 involving perhaps something to do with the crowd and the
12 police, did you get any impression that the crowd
13 contained elements hostile to each other in it or
14 whether the whole crowd was being hostile to the police?
15 A. Well, we could see -- all we could hear was shouting
16 and, you know, we could see it, but we didn't know who
17 was who, to be honest with you. We couldn't make that
18 distinction out, who was -- what factions were factions.
19 Do you know what I mean? We just seen people and knew
20 there was some sort of affray going on.
21 Q. Can you recall any noise, shouting, swearing?
22 A. There was shouting. There was shouting, because at one
23 stage we actually stopped for our own safety and says,
24 "You know, what are we going to do here?" Then we did
25 see casualties, and we have to protect ourselves going
5
1 out into that situation.
2 Q. I take it you were in the ambulance when you were having
3 this discussion?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you saying you stopped before you parked in the
6 eventual place while you surveyed the scene?
7 A. Sorry. When we parked, we could see the situation in
8 front of us. Right?
9 Q. So you were obviously worried about your own safety, but
10 you saw casualties up ahead and took the conscious
11 decision to get out?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have presumably experienced, before that, occasions
14 where you have turned up to a scene where there were
15 casualties and a risk you perceived to yourself?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you just help us with -- this may sound a silly
18 question -- why it is you perceived a risk to yourself
19 here? Was it that this was an out-of-control crowd
20 attacking people in uniforms, as it were, or what?
21 A. I would basically say it was a hostile situation.
22 Basically, what you could see is there was an affray
23 going on in the town centre. You had casualties. What
24 I could see was basically we had two casualties as
25 I looked up towards the church in Portadown and a lot of
6
1 crowd about and a lot of shouting.
2 Somebody actually -- I don't know who it was -- but
3 actually hit the ambulance, came over and smacked the
4 side of the ambulance.
5 Q. All right. Doing the best you can with the lapse of
6 time and the circumstances in which you had to go and
7 get those casualties, can you tell us, was it number 3
8 or number 2 that turned out to be Mr Hamill?
9 A. Number 3.
10 Q. Can you help us with what was happening, in particular
11 around Mr Hamill, when you arrived? Obviously you have
12 this hostile crowd and an affray going on and you see
13 casualties, which include Mr Hamill, who is the further
14 away from you. Can you help us with what was going on
15 around him?
16 A. Yes. I will briefly say before I go on, when I came out
17 of the ambulance, I did go to number 2 first.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I assessed him quickly, seen he was fully conscious, and
20 was with what I would class as minor injuries. I told
21 him to stay there and progressed on up towards patient
22 number 3, who I now know to be Robert Hamill.
23 There was a policeman standing not too far away from
24 him and there was girls -- I don't know who they were --
25 were shouting at the police
7
1 Q. You described him as Dean.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We know there was an officer called Dean Silcock at the
4 scene. Did you know him as Dean Silcock?
5 A. Yes. I didn't remember his second name, but
6 I recognised him as Police Officer Dean.
7 Q. You described in your statement that these girls were
8 being aggressive or upset --
9 A. Upset, yes.
10 Q. -- towards everybody, including him. Were there any
11 other hostile people attempting to get at or attacking
12 Mr Hamill?
13 A. No, not at this time.
14 Q. Anybody attacking or attempting to attack the other
15 casualty, number 2?
16 A. No, not at this time.
17 Q. You obviously, despite fears for your safety, got out
18 and did this. Having got out and attended to these two,
19 did anything happen to you? Did anybody come towards
20 you? Was there still aggression around you, apart from
21 these hostile or upset girls?
22 A. Nobody was aggressive towards me. At one stage,
23 somebody did bang the ambulance when we'd just arrived.
24 I think this was due to adrenaline and maybe other
25 things, but nobody was aggressive to me and my partner.
8
1 We did see a crowd further up from patient 3, Mr Hamill,
2 towards the church in Portadown.
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. I am not 100% sure how many there was, but I am sure
5 there was maybe 15 or 20 of them.
6 Q. What were they doing?
7 A. They were shouting.
8 Q. Keeping their distance and shouting, or what?
9 A. They were not within a close proximity of us now, but
10 I remember in one case I did believe that somebody had
11 threw a bottle which smashed close by us, but it
12 wouldn't have hit anybody.
13 Q. We are very interested in what the police did. You
14 described Dean Silcock there with these upset girls.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You described, of course, that when you arrived, you saw
17 the crowd being hostile towards the police.
18 Let's take this stage by stage. When you arrived,
19 can you recall seeing any police on the street?
20 A. When we arrived, I did see a Land Rover over to the
21 right-hand side.
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. When I did progress out of the ambulance, that's when
24 I recall Dean, Policeman Dean, I would say no more than
25 maybe 5, 6 feet away from Mr Hamill.
9
1 Q. So is he the first policeman you actually saw at the
2 scene?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The crowd that we have you say are nearer to the church,
5 that are a distance away but are shouting, were they
6 being kept back by police or were they just, of their
7 own volition, staying a distance away? Can you help us?
8 A. To be honest with you, from my recollection I am not
9 100% sure if there was police further on up at that
10 stage keeping the crowd back. I am not 100% sure.
11 Q. Can we just have a look at the model? You can see here
12 we have put a Land Rover in the mouth of
13 Woodhouse Street. Can you help us about whether that's
14 where the Land Rover was that you saw?
15 If it was somewhere else, tell us.
16 A. Initially, I thought it was actually further down.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. But it could have been around that area, the Ulster Bank
19 area, you know.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say "further down", do you mean to
21 the right, down High Street?
22 A. Sorry. If I was looking at that, down, further down ...
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Further down Woodhouse Street?
24 A. No, no. Down -- let us see now. There is a Halifax.
25 It looks like the Halifax further down. There is the
10
1 Northern Bank I thought it was --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's down High Street.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. If we move to the left in this model
5 and pause it there perhaps, we don't quite see the
6 church in this, but you see -- now we do -- the church.
7 There is a tree there, and to the right of the tree
8 there is a road sign giving some directions. That is
9 more or less outside Clarks.
10 Compared with all of that, can you help us with
11 where the crowd that was up nearer the church was? Was
12 it outside Clarks or --
13 A. No. Sorry. It would have been this -- I am touching
14 with the pen.
15 Q. We need to do some electronic work to enable you to mark
16 on this.
17 A. Sorry.
18 Q. Let's do that. Right. It is all yours.
19 A. I would have said the crowd was actually up -- there is
20 a street further on up. The 3D diagram doesn't show it.
21 It would have been around William Street area further on
22 up.
23 Q. Further on up past the church?
24 A. It wouldn't have been up further to the church, it would
25 have been in front of the church. There was a street
11
1 there off to the left, William Street. That's where the
2 crowd would have been.
3 Q. Okay. I will come back and deal with what you did with
4 Mr Hamill in a minute, if I may.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Just staying with the police and the crowd, we know you
7 dealt with Mr Hamill. Eventually, he was stretchered
8 into the ambulance. I say "eventually". He was quite
9 quickly stretchered into the ambulance and you drove
10 away.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the course of all that, did anything change in
13 relation to what the crowd was doing or in relation to
14 what you saw police doing?
15 A. I don't think anything did change in this situation.
16 The only policeman I seen was Dean.
17 While we were dealing with the casualties, our job
18 was to get the casualties on board. Normally, due to
19 the circumstances, it was hostile, we knew it was
20 hostile, and shouting and maybe a bottle being threw was
21 to get the casualties away from this situation.
22 Q. Let's deal with Mr Hamill. You tell us in your witness
23 statement -- and perhaps we could look at it at
24 page [81205] -- about this situation at paragraph 9.
25 A. Yes.
12
1 Q. "Mr Hamill was lying on his back and he was unconscious.
2 There were markings on the front left-hand side of his
3 face. The markings were haematomas with swelling."
4 What's a haematoma?
5 A. A haematoma is like a mark or a bruising to the face.
6 Q. "There were no open wounds", and you didn't see any
7 bleeding on his face or body, "but not 100% sure whether
8 there was blood on the back of the head."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would that have been something you would have checked
11 for?
12 A. Well, you wear gloves and you would normally know there
13 was bleeding to the back of the head. I did hold the
14 neck due to the fact he had a head injury. Probably,
15 and if you have time, in hindsight, it is a different
16 situation here than a normal situation.
17 Q. We know from other witnesses that there was some
18 suggestion of liquid around him. There seems to be
19 a debate about whether that was the contents of a bottle
20 that had either emptied or smashed around him or blood.
21 Do you have any record of any liquid?
22 A. To be honest with you, to my recollection there wasn't
23 much bleeding of any -- of that description. You would
24 see that, especially if you were alert to somebody and
25 you were so close to somebody in the back of
13
1 an ambulance. If you did see actual blood protruding
2 from maybe the ears or the back of the head, you know,
3 I mean, you would see that more clearly.
4 Q. Particularly, as you say, once you got into the
5 ambulance?
6 A. Once you got into the ambulance, yes, you would have
7 seen it.
8 Q. Do I take it that for the ride back from Portadown to
9 the hospital you would have been attending him in the
10 back of the ambulance?
11 A. Well, it was a peculiar situation. He was priority. To
12 be honest with you, I am not even, to this day, 100%
13 sure. I know there were three casualties, plus I think
14 two girls. So it is enough. But he was priority.
15 Q. Going over the page to [81206], picking up the first two
16 paragraphs and further up, you go on to say there:
17 "His teeth were clenched and, as a paramedic, I knew
18 that he had a serious head injury."
19 It goes on:
20 "Whilst it is difficult to remember now the exact
21 treatment I gave, I recall that the priority was to
22 maintain his airway and make sure that oxygen got into
23 his body. As his jaw was clenched, I tried to open his
24 airway whilst keeping his neck straight because he had
25 a head injury. He was breathing on his own, but I would
14
1 say that it was laboured."
2 Now, we have read so far some descriptions given by
3 other people who were on the scene about this time,
4 different descriptions. One of them says his breath was
5 raspy. One of them said there was such a strange noise
6 in his breathing that they thought he might have been
7 stabbed.
8 Can I get you to expand, please, on this and tell us
9 what you mean by "laboured breathing", and how that
10 would have appeared at the time?
11 A. Well, laboured breathing is, when we breathe normally,
12 you wouldn't hear us unless somebody would get down with
13 their ear to listen to your breathing, but you could
14 hear the noise when he was breathing, laboured breathing
15 when -- the breathing was slow. It wasn't -- it was out
16 of the normal sync for anybody breathing. So it was
17 like slow breathing, but there was a noise, noisy
18 breathing. It is classed as laboured breathing when it
19 is slow and noisy.
20 Q. Would "raspy" describe it?
21 A. "Raspy" could be fair enough to describe it, yes.
22 Q. Obviously, you come to this with a great deal of
23 training and expertise. So your analysis of it is what
24 it is, but can you tell us how that would have appeared
25 to somebody else who didn't have the training? Would
15
1 they have appeared, to a normal person, to be in a bad
2 way?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In paragraph 11 you go on to tell us:
5 "I did not speak to anyone at the scene other than
6 the girls to ask what had happened."
7 Are these the girls who were upset?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. "The girls said that Mr Hamill had been kicked. There
10 was a bottle on the pavement but no-one mentioned him
11 being hit with a bottle."
12 One of the grave difficulties in reconstructing the
13 events of this night is, of course, delay, the fact that
14 people were upset at the time and a lot of people had
15 a lot to drink.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Are you, as an observer who was not upset and had not
18 had a lot to drink, able to tell us more about what
19 these girls had said?
20 A. Well, to be honest with you, when you arrive at any
21 scene, you have to ask, you know, what did happen. When
22 I spoke to the girls, the girls said he had been kicked
23 around the head. I was taking that as, you know, what
24 actually had happened.
25 Q. Can you help us with whether those girls ended up in the
16
1 ambulance?
2 A. Yes. Well, in my recollection of the events, my
3 priority is to Mr Hamill, but there was girls travelling
4 in the ambulance and I do think those were the same
5 girls who were with Mr Hamill when I arrived.
6 Q. In fact, in this paragraph you go on to say:
7 "There was a bottle on the pavement but no-one
8 mentioned him being hit with a bottle. When I got to
9 the ambulance, I was told by one of the girls that the
10 name of the casualty was Robert Hamill."
11 Is it your recollection then that, of the two girls
12 who were upset in the first place, one of them at least
13 was able to tell you his name --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- and that that's likely then to be the same two girls
16 who came in the ambulance?
17 A. Yes. To me, I would say that was the same two girls who
18 were with Robert.
19 Q. Can I just remind you of what you said in paragraph 12
20 below here? You tell us there:
21 "I stayed with Mr Hamill while David Morrow
22 collected a stretcher from the ambulance so that we
23 could move him away from the hostile crowd as quickly as
24 possible. The crowd were about 20 to 30 feet away at
25 this stage and the police had their batons drawn trying
17
1 to keep the crowd back and separate the factions."
2 Reminding yourself with that paragraph, is that what
3 happened?
4 A. Well, David did go and collect the stretcher for me.
5 I stayed with Mr Hamill. I do remember police officers
6 at this were around the vicinity of us, but my priority
7 was to Mr Hamill and I was trying to maintain his
8 airway. I knew, the clenched teeth, I was dealing with
9 that but I do know there was police officers. I don't
10 know whether more arrived at the scene or what way they
11 come from, but there seemed to be more officers did
12 arrive.
13 Q. I appreciate how difficult it is when there you were
14 with a seriously injured man, but can you help us with
15 where the crowd were in relation to him? You say 20 to
16 30 feet away. Were they up towards the church or
17 gathered round or what?
18 A. Sorry, they weren't round Mr Hamill. They were further
19 up. The crowd had progressed up again to probably where
20 we arrived -- they were up again, I would say, around
21 the church, around William Street area.
22 Q. Again, if I push your memory too far, you tell me. You
23 say in this paragraph 12:
24 "The crowd were about 20 to 30 feet away at this
25 stage and the police had their batons drawn trying to
18
1 keep the crowd back and separate the factions."
2 Was it your impression at that stage that the crowd
3 was trying to do two things? One of those things was
4 trying to get at Mr Hamill and the other thing was
5 trying to get at each other, or am I reading too much
6 into that?
7 A. Maybe they weren't separating the factions, but when
8 I -- you know, you quickly on a scene like that there
9 knew that there had been a fight between two factions.
10 My thinking was that there was one faction further up
11 the town towards the church and there was different ones
12 round Mr Hamill and the police was trying to kind of,
13 say, keep law and order then on the street --
14 Q. So it wasn't just -- I am so sorry, I didn't mean to
15 overspeak.
16 So apart from the two girls who were upset, there
17 were likely to have been other people around Mr Hamill
18 who were, as it were, on his side. Is that your point?
19 A. To be fair, I would say, yes, there was, because
20 definitely there was a couple of gentlemen.
21 Q. Again, if I am reading too much into this paragraph,
22 tell me, but you tell us in the first sentence of it
23 that Mr Morrow collected a stretcher:
24 "... so that we could move him away from the hostile
25 crowd as quickly as possible."
19
1 Did you have any impression that the crowd was
2 hostile to him, still, or is this just you thinking,
3 "I have a casualty. There has been a fight. Let's get
4 him out of there"?
5 A. It is not as clear as that there. When you are in that
6 situation, there is shouting and all going on. I did
7 say earlier on somebody had threw a bottle. In this
8 stage here, I said, "Davy, let's get this casualty away
9 from this situation".
10 Q. Perhaps we can split the screen having [81206] on one
11 side and [81207] on the other. What I want to pick up
12 is paragraph 13 that stretches over the pages. On the
13 left-hand page, the final sentence there:
14 "It may be that three walking wounded were recorded
15 on the emergency call receipt, as David Morrow looked
16 back into the ambulance and thought that one of the
17 girls was injured."
18 That may well be so. Then you go on:
19 "Also, the call for back-up may be recorded on the
20 receipt as being at 02.02 hours if David was asked
21 whether a second ambulance was still needed when he
22 called in at that time to say that we were leaving the
23 scene."
24 I just want to get your help with that. We can look
25 at the call receipt, if you want, but you have told us,
20
1 and Mr Morrow told us as well, that when you arrived at
2 the scene, you could see two casualties. They are on
3 the ground, so naturally you need two ambulances,
4 because you want one ambulance per unconscious patient.
5 A. Ideal situation, yes.
6 Q. We know, though, that the note for the call for a second
7 ambulance is 2.02, when you were leaving. Can you
8 explain that?
9 A. I really can't explain that. I know when we arrived at
10 the scene, we asked immediately for another ambulance to
11 be dispatched to the scene.
12 Q. You are not responsible for writing the record, of
13 course.
14 A. No. I think there was a quick response that there was
15 no ambulance available.
16 Q. I just want to ask finally about paragraph 14 over on
17 page [81207]. You say there:
18 "I tried to insert a plastic airway into
19 Robert Hamill's throat to assist his breathing, but his
20 teeth were clenched. Mr Hamill's breathing was still
21 laboured in the ambulance and I asked the girls how much
22 he had drunk. One of the girls said that he had taken
23 a 'brave amount' of alcohol."
24 A "brave amount" is a phrase we English people have
25 seen quite a few times now in the documents. Can you
21
1 tell us what it would have conveyed to you and what
2 a person in Portadown would have been taken to mean by
3 a "brave amount"? I don't mean in terms of actual
4 quantity; I mean in terms of its effect on somebody?
5 A. With alcohol on board, it can affect somebody who has
6 had a head injury. So that's me, I have to find that
7 out when I am trying to find a history of -- I did smell
8 alcohol. You are trying to find out from the girls, you
9 know, how much alcohol. Would this be affecting his
10 condition?
11 Q. Sure. Obviously that's a phrase that gave you
12 an adequate understanding of the amount of alcohol that
13 had been taken. Is that fair?
14 A. If somebody says "a brave amount", I would say --
15 somebody could say three pints would be a brave amount.
16 Somebody could say ten pints. It is a person's own
17 perceivement of that.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We might on the mainland call it "a skinful".
19 A. Well, Saturday night, normally it would be fair.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I have pushed that as much as
21 I usefully can. Thank you very much, Mr Stewart. Those
22 are all the questions I have for you. As I say, other
23 people may have some more.
24 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions for you.
25
22
1 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
2 MR ADAIR: Mr Stewart, just to recap very briefly on your
3 arrival at the scene, what you saw was a hostile crowd
4 in confrontation with the police?
5 A. Well, what I seen was there was a crowd of people
6 gathered up part of the town and there was shouting
7 going on. Now ...
8 Q. Was it your impression at that time that the shouting
9 was directed towards the police or between each other?
10 A. I'd say --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Or both.
12 MR ADAIR: Or both.
13 A. To be honest with you, if you ask me now, it was all
14 three. There was three parties. To me, there was --
15 seemed to be -- sorry. Let me get this right.
16 There seemed to be a crowd near the church, there
17 was a crowd round Mr Hamill, and there was also the
18 police. So there was like -- to be honest with you,
19 there was like a hostile -- there was shouting going on
20 among -- you know, somebody was shouting at the police.
21 There was a crowd further up the town was shouting at --
22 could I say Mr Hamill's -- people round Mr Hamill.
23 Q. It was clearly a pretty chaotic situation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Naturally enough, your priority at that stage, because
23
1 you had spotted the two casualties, was to make your way
2 immediately towards the two casualties?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. We know that you first of all went to the gentleman who
5 turned out to be conscious and then you moved to
6 Mr Hamill.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Could it be that the casualties were further up towards
9 the church than where you have actually marked them on
10 the map, or what's your recollection about that?
11 A. To be honest with you, if I went back, it could be that
12 case, because this did happen numerous years ago, but
13 I know that we came into Edward Street, we took left and
14 we did stop a short distance up. When I got out of the
15 ambulance then, there was one casualty and I did say the
16 further one -- Mr Hamill was further towards the church
17 end in Portadown.
18 Q. Wherever they were exactly on the road, Mr Hamill was
19 certainly further up towards the church?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now you did, as you have been taken through part of your
22 Inquiry statement, make an Inquiry statement. You
23 accept what's in it is true. Is that right?
24 A. To the best of my knowledge.
25 Q. If we could have up page [81206], please. Now, you were
24
1 taken through part of paragraph 10, but I want to take
2 you to a further part of paragraph 10 and just confirm
3 that this is true as well. You will see about halfway
4 down that paragraph it starts:
5 "I am not sure whether Mr Hamill had been given
6 first aid before I arrived, but it seems unlikely as
7 people were hostile to the policeman called Dean who was
8 trying to assist him."
9 Now, if we just stop there for a moment, it is clear
10 from that -- and we will come to further parts of this
11 in a moment -- that Dean Silcock -- it turns out it is
12 Mr Silcock, Mr Stewart --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- was trying to assist Mr Hamill. That was your clear
15 impression?
16 A. My impression would be that Dean was there trying to
17 assist Mr Hamill.
18 Q. But in the last sentence you say:
19 "In particular ..."
20 When you say, "in particular", you are referring to
21 the people being hostile:
22 "... there were two girls with Mr Hamill who were
23 shouting at everyone, including the policeman, and they
24 would not let him", that's Mr Silcock, "near enough to
25 provide first aid to Mr Hamill."
25
1 Is that true?
2 A. That would be my recollection of events. Remember,
3 Mr Silcock might have been there before the ambulance
4 arrived, but when we arrived, they were shouting at the
5 policeman as I know as Dean, and he wouldn't --
6 preventing him from going over to -- it looks like he
7 was trying to render first aid.
8 Q. But they wouldn't let him near him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I am sorry I can't bring this up on the screen. In the
11 transcript of the interview you had with the Inquiry,
12 did you say:
13 "To be fair, they didn't want him near. What
14 I could hear that they were telling, the two girls were
15 shouting at this police officer. They were hostile
16 towards this police officer."
17 Do you remember you said that to the Inquiry or do
18 you accept you said it?
19 A. Yes. I would have said that the girls were verbally
20 abusive, if that's a strong enough word, towards the
21 policeman who I would have known as Dean.
22 Q. Did you also say -- again, I am sorry this is just in
23 a transcript, which I can't bring up on the screen:
24 "He was trying", that's Dean Silcock:
25 "To me personally, I think he was trying to help the
26
1 fellow who was lying on the ground, but they wouldn't
2 let him near. They wouldn't let him go near."
3 Do you remember saying that?
4 A. I believe the constable, Dean, was trying to help
5 Mr Hamill. The girls now -- can I say that -- they were
6 not physically stopping the policeman, but they were
7 verbally shouting at him not to come near him.
8 Q. You were taken to paragraph 12. If we could highlight
9 paragraph 12 at page [81206], please. Our understanding
10 is that, having made your way over to Mr Hamill, you
11 assessed him obviously fairly quickly and realised that
12 a stretcher was needed?
13 A. Yes. That would be correct.
14 Q. It would have been fairly quickly apparent to you that
15 a stretcher was needed?
16 A. Very quickly, yes.
17 Q. From this paragraph, do we understand then that
18 Mr Morrow went to the ambulance to get a stretcher?
19 A. Yes. Davy would have been required because of the
20 mechanism of getting a stretcher out of the ambulance.
21 Davy, at the time I asked him to go down and get
22 a stretcher as quickly as possible.
23 Q. So it must have been virtually immediately on arriving
24 on Mr Hamill that you become aware of this crowd, 20 to
25 30 feet away, and the police with their batons drawn
27
1 trying to do two things: to keep the crowd back and to
2 separate the factions?
3 A. Yes. That would be my recollection of the events.
4 Q. Just for the record, and I think you answered the
5 question understanding it, but Mr Underwood had actually
6 said to you, "Was the crowd doing these two things?" and
7 what was meant was the police were doing these two
8 things: keeping the crowd back and separating the two
9 factions?
10 A. I think the police officers were trying to keep the
11 factions apart and separate the factions, yes.
12 Q. Nobody got near Mr Hamill while you were there tending
13 to him.
14 A. Nobody got near Mr Hamill. No.
15 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you, Mr Stewart.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you go, you said Mr Hamill was
17 nearer to the church. Is that nearer to the church than
18 the other man?
19 A. Yes, that would be correct.
20 MR McGRORY: If I may, sir, I have some questions, when you
21 are ready, sir. Thank you, sir.
22 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
23 MR McGRORY: Sorry, Mr Stewart. I want to ask you some
24 questions on behalf of the Hamill family.
25 A. That's okay. Yes.
28
1 Q. The first matter I want to deal with is the position of
2 the injured when you arrived. Mr Adair I think
3 suggested to you that it might have been further up the
4 street -- in fact, I want to take you to -- than you had
5 indicated in your evidence earlier.
6 I want to take you to page [74383]. Now, this is
7 the map -- these are the markings you made as to your
8 recollection of the precise location of the injured when
9 you were interviewed by the Inquiry a couple of years
10 ago.
11 A. Right. Okay.
12 Q. Now, you will note that there are two markings on this
13 map. Where it says "Market Street", if that square area
14 could be highlighted, please, that would be of
15 assistance. Now there are two markings there, a 1 and
16 a 2.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Do you agree they are a bit further up Market Street
19 towards the church than you had remembered earlier this
20 morning?
21 A. I am looking at the map. My recollection is, when I did
22 do this here, I did state that I was unsure of exactly,
23 and I still would be unsure exactly, where the patients
24 were.
25 Q. It is just that this morning when you marked the screen,
29
1 you marked them on the High Street side of the junction
2 a bit north of where you have marked them now.
3 Do you accept that they may have been where you have
4 marked them on this map?
5 A. I'm looking at the map. To be honest with you, all
6 I can know from recollection of the events is we took
7 left at Edward Street. We parked the ambulance 20 yards
8 or -- 20 yards up the road, on the right-hand side of
9 that road, and I proceeded up towards the church, coming
10 across one patient, and then, further on up, maybe
11 20 feet, there was another patient, being Mr Hamill,
12 further up towards the church.
13 Q. Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, the bulk of the evidence --
15 I think all of the evidence we have heard so far is more
16 consistent with the two positions shown on this map at
17 the time of the interview.
18 MR McGRORY: Yes, yes. We will leave it at that. I am
19 obliged, Mr Chairman.
20 Now, the other issue I want to talk to you about,
21 Mr Stewart, is this issue of the extent to which the
22 crowd was hostile and your observations of that
23 hostility when you arrived.
24 You arrive close on 2 o'clock in the morning. Isn't
25 that correct?
30
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Do you accept that you came into a situation and you
3 knew nothing of what had immediately preceded your
4 arrival?
5 A. No. I think -- we didn't know the situation we were
6 going into, to be fair. We did get -- we got a call
7 from Ambulance Control to tell us there had been
8 an assault in Portadown town centre, an assault.
9 Q. Yes, of course, but in terms of how that assault had
10 occurred, how long before you were called it had
11 occurred and the finer detail of the assault in terms of
12 who assaulted whom, you were not privy to that
13 information?
14 A. No, I wasn't privy -- we wouldn't be privy to that
15 information, no.
16 Q. The impression you get when you arrive is one of it was
17 an ugly scene. Would that be a fair way to describe it?
18 A. Everybody would have their own classification of it.
19 Somebody could say it would be ugly, somebody could say
20 hostile. You know, that scene, yes.
21 Q. But you have no particular knowledge as to why anybody
22 is hostile or who is hostile at whom?
23 A. No, I wouldn't know. To be honest with you, I didn't
24 know -- to be fair, I didn't even know it was going on.
25 All I knew, there was casualties, you know, or who was
31
1 who.
2 Q. Now, the impression that you expressed about the reasons
3 for the policeman maybe being inhibited from giving
4 first aid, would it be fair to say that that impression
5 was formed as a result of what you had observed and felt
6 the situation to be upon your arrival?
7 A. Well, whatever has happened has probably happened before
8 my arrival.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. We arrived at the scene of Mr Hamill, and I did explain
11 there were two girls shouting at a police officer I know
12 as Dean. They wouldn't let Dean go near the casualty.
13 Now, I don't know what happened prior to my arrival,
14 what went on in Portadown, but when I arrived at the
15 situation, when I arrived, that was the situation on my
16 arrival.
17 Q. Thank you. I just want you to look at some evidence
18 from the police officer about whom you have been
19 referring, Dean Silcock. It is at page [00700].
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just give us the date of the
21 statement?
22 MR McGRORY: Yes. This is a statement dated
23 27th April 1997. The passage I am interested in begins
24 about a third of the way down:
25 "This man was wearing a dark jacket. He was
32
1 unconscious and having difficulty breathing."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "I removed glass away from the area of this man's head.
5 I radioed for an ambulance and stayed with these two
6 injured men, along with several women who said they were
7 accompanying the men when the fracas occurred, until the
8 ambulance arrived."
9 Do you see that passage?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, it would appear from that passage that certainly
12 there is no expression from Dean Silcock that he was the
13 recipient of any aggression from those women. Do you
14 see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then in a further statement that he made on 24th May,
17 which is at page [00702], at the bottom third -- bottom
18 five or six lines actually:
19 "Mr Hamill was unconscious and having difficulty
20 breathing. He was being cradled by his cousin who was
21 on her knees on the ground."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you didn't see that happening?
25 A. No.
33
1 Q. That would have happened just before you arrived?
2 A. That would be correct.
3 Q. "His head was in an upright position. I requested
4 Mr Hamill's cousin to turn him over."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "She was in a very distressed state."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "I assisted Mr Hamill's cousin in doing this."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He goes on to say on the next page [00703]:
14 "Whilst doing this manoeuvre, I put my hand up his
15 back and noticed that he was now rasping for breath. He
16 was placed front down and his head was turned to the
17 side."
18 I am suggesting to you there was no basis on which
19 Mr Silcock was inhibited by those women who were with
20 Mr Hamill from helping him?
21 A. That is probably -- this here happened probably prior to
22 my arrival. I am only saying what happened when
23 I arrived on the scene.
24 Q. Are you prepared to accept that the impression you got
25 that the policeman might have been inhibited from
34
1 helping Mr Hamill by the women who were with him might
2 perhaps be a slightly wrong impression in view of what
3 you have just heard?
4 A. Well, I am only giving the evidence that I seen when
5 I arrived on the situation. When I arrived on the
6 situation, Dean -- Constable Dean was being told from
7 girls shouting to get away from the casualty, basically
8 in an abusive manner.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they seem distraught?
10 A. Yes, they were distraught, yes.
11 MR McGRORY: Of course, unbeknownst to you, someone who may
12 have been one of those women had already been assisting
13 Dean Silcock in giving some sort of aid to Mr Hamill.
14 A. Yes, but I am only giving my evidence of what I have
15 seen. That girl could have been a different girl.
16 There could have been somebody helping Mr Hamill, but
17 there could have been also other girls giving the abuse.
18 I am only giving the evidence I have seen.
19 MR McGRORY: Indeed. I have no other issues. Thank you.
20 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
21 MS DINSMORE: Just three very brief points.
22 Firstly, you have alluded to the fact that the girl
23 with him said he had a brave amount of drink. Did she
24 indicate at all how much he had drunk and did she make
25 any statement in relation to what his condition was from
35
1 alcohol?
2 A. No, she didn't.
3 Q. So that was the only indication you had?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Secondly, your evidence is unambiguous that there was
6 a clear police presence that evening.
7 A. Yes, there was a police presence, yes.
8 Q. You told the interviewer in relation to the Inquiry
9 regarding the hostile crowd that they -- "they" being
10 the police -- were trying their best to keep back the
11 crowd.
12 A. That's my recollection of the events, yes.
13 Q. So you witnessed police making every effort you
14 considered was appropriate and that they could do?
15 A. In the time I was there, yes.
16 Q. Albeit you were only there four minutes.
17 Then if we can just look again at an area which you
18 have already covered, but if I just -- I wonder, could
19 we have the model up again, please? Could we do the
20 360 degrees? Now, perhaps it could be stopped there.
21 When you have marked the positions today, it is
22 correct to say you marked much further down from, let's
23 say, the edge of that junction. My friend Mr Adair put
24 to you, when you marked the map for the Inquiry, that
25 you were in a different position, that you were further
36
1 up towards the church?
2 A. That could well be, yes.
3 Q. You would accept that that might well have been the
4 case?
5 A. To me, honestly it is very hard for me to mark and I had
6 stated this in my previous recollection of the map of
7 an event that happened ten years ago. For me to put
8 an X where people are lying in this situation is very
9 hard for me, to put exactly where they are.
10 Q. One appreciates that and makes no criticism of it.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I have pointed out to Mr McGrory where the
12 balance of the evidence is, the great preponderance of
13 the evidence is, about position.
14 MS DINSMORE: I appreciate that. If I could ask one further
15 question. My client is of the view that one of the
16 casualties, Mr D, was in the middle of the road parallel
17 to the premises Bakery Number 7 and that Mr Hamill was
18 in the middle of the road parallel to the Eastwood
19 building.
20 Do you know where the Eastwood building is?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could the model just be turned right again, please?
23 Sorry, left. Now, the Eastwood building is on the
24 street just -- that is the corner of that building that
25 you see. All I am suggesting to you is that those
37
1 recollections as to where the casualties were placed you
2 could say might well be the position. You accept there
3 was a number of feet apart between two casualties?
4 A. Yes, there was.
5 Q. You accept that they may well have been further up
6 towards the church than you had marked today?
7 A. Could be.
8 Q. You accept Mr Hamill was in front of casualty D?
9 A. Mr Hamill was closer to the church --
10 Q. The church than casualty D?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
13 Cross-examination by MR McKILLOP
14 MR MCKILLOP: Just one matter. The two girls to whom you
15 have already referred, when you arrived at the scene and
16 started to give medical assistance to Mr Hamill, did
17 they interfere in any way with you administering that
18 assistance?
19 A. No, they didn't, no.
20 Q. You were looking to them to provide a history in
21 relation to what had happened and what he had had to
22 drink. They gave you that history. Isn't that correct?
23 A. They gave me that in the ambulance.
24 Q. In fact, in paragraph 14 you refer to others in the
25 ambulance being well-behaved.
38
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Would that include the two women to whom you have
3 already referred?
4 A. Yes, it would, yes.
5 MR MCKILLOP: Thank you.
6 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: One matter arising out of that. Can we look
8 back at page [00703], please? You were asked by
9 Mr McGrory on behalf of the Hamill family to have a look
10 at this. Let's take the top half, if we may. This is
11 Mr Silcock's second statement. The part you were shown
12 included this about four lines down:
13 "Before, during and after these actions, I was
14 pushing people away from the injured men as they
15 appeared to be trying to kick them but were prevented in
16 doing so."
17 It goes on:
18 "With the two-injured-men party there was a male
19 youth in a grey Umbro sweatshirt. He appeared to be
20 intoxicated and in a very aggressive and irate state.
21 He was verbally abusive to myself and other police. He
22 was running between the two injured men cursing and
23 interfering verbally with myself. The ambulance arrived
24 and the two injured men were placed into it."
25 He may be compressing time there, of course, but
39
1 doing the best you can, can you recall anybody of that
2 description: a male, grey Umbro sweatshirt, aggressive,
3 irate, abusive to Mr Silcock and other police?
4 A. There was people being abusive, verbally abusive to the
5 police. Now, from my recollection I was with Mr Hamill
6 and those two girls with Mr Hamill. There was a lot of
7 shouting going on in the vicinity towards the police.
8 I can't really personally say there was a male youth
9 with a grey Umbro sweatshirt on. I couldn't say that.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Fair enough. Thank you very much,
11 Mr Stewart.
12 Questions from REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON
13 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: The next sentence of
14 that which we just saw said the policeman assisted with
15 lifting the stretcher into the ambulance. Is that part
16 of your recollection?
17 A. I can't recall that, to be honest with you. We don't
18 lift the stretcher, and that's how I would say -- you
19 can't lift a stretcher now. It is done mechanically.
20 The stretcher is wheeled down, we put it on to a ramp
21 and we press buttons and it goes up itself. So there
22 would have been no lifting of stretchers. That's all
23 I can say about that.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Unless there is anything else arising, that
25 concludes your evidence.
40
1 Thank you very much, Mr Stewart.
2 A. Okay. Thank you.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Would you give me a moment? I am being asked
5 for a comfort break.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Fifteen minutes.
7 (11.32 am)
8 (A short break)
9 (11.47 am)
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, sir. Neil Ritchie, please.
11 MR NEIL RITCHIE (sworn )
12 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Ritchie.
14 A. Hiya.
15 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry. It
16 is my job to ask you questions in the first place. When
17 I am finished, some other people may have a few
18 questions for you.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Can I ask you your full name, first of all?
21 A. It is Neil Ritchie.
22 Q. On the screen, can we have page [81128], please?
23 If we just scroll quickly through the three pages of
24 that, is that the statement that you signed for the
25 Inquiry?
41
1 A. Yes, it looks to be, yes.
2 Q. Is it true --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- to the best of your knowledge?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. I want to you look, please, at page [09157].
7 This is a statement which you think you made on
8 13th May 1997 -- is that right -- to the police?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Picking it up from the bottom two lines, you say there:
11 "I left Timothy Jameson's company at Boss Hoggs",
12 you say there, "and began to walk up the town."
13 If we go over the page, [09158], and if we pick up
14 the top half of the page, you say there that you went to
15 walk up towards St Mark's church on your own.
16 To read on:
17 "I eventually started to cross the road at Ronnie's
18 pub, walking on to the central traffic island
19 reservation situated in the centre of the High Street.
20 At this time, I saw a police Land Rover parked outside
21 the Alliance & Leicester Building Society with the front
22 of it facing towards the bottom of the town. I then
23 completed my crossing of the road and I found myself
24 outside the First Trust Bank next door to the
25 Alliance & Leicester.
42
1 "I would like to add that I was following the
2 following three girls: Anne Bowles, Alison Bowles and
3 [another]. These girls were ahead of me some 15 to
4 20 metres and I want wanted to catch up to them. As
5 I got to Boots the Chemists I heard the sound of females
6 screaming coming from behind me. On turning round,
7 I saw a group of 15 to 20 males and females fighting
8 amongst themselves. I could not recognise anybody from
9 where I was standing. After a few seconds, I resumed my
10 journey."
11 I read that to you to remind you of that. Can I now
12 show you a model?
13 This is essentially a photograph taken from outside
14 Eastwoods Clothing store. It is looking over, and that
15 junction we can there is the junction with
16 Woodhouse Street. We have put a Land Rover there. You
17 can see the Alliance & Leicester on one corner of
18 Woodhouse Street and the Halifax on the other corner.
19 Can you help us, for a start, about where it was you
20 crossed the road, looking at this model? Was it in this
21 scene or was it to the left or to the right of this?
22 A. I'm not honestly sure. It would have probably been sort
23 of maybe crossing from the bottom of that street, sort
24 of walking maybe diagonally across.
25 Q. So from the pavement we see on the right-hand side here,
43
1 do you mean?
2 A. It could have been. I'm not 100% sure exactly.
3 Q. Can you recall where Ronnie's pub was?
4 A. It's maybe just a wee bit back, sort of down the street.
5 Q. If we go round to the left, would that help you?
6 A. No. I think it's --
7 Q. You mean the other way?
8 A. -- back the other way.
9 Q. So looking down there, we know that Boss Hoggs is
10 further down. We see a white hoarding around there.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Between here and Boss Hoggs, do you think?
13 A. Sort of maybe somewhere near the bottom of
14 Thomas Street. I am not 100% sure.
15 Q. You tell us in the statement we have just been reading,
16 the police statement, that you saw a Land Rover. As
17 I say, we have put a Land Rover here in the junction of
18 Woodhouse Street. Is that where you saw it or did you
19 see it somewhere else?
20 A. It would have maybe been further back, I think, maybe.
21 It was around there somewhere, like.
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. Maybe slightly back.
24 Q. If we move this round to the left, and stop it there, we
25 know that at an earlier stage -- sorry -- let me make
44
1 this clear. We know that the Land Rover was parked
2 somewhere around the Clarks/Instep area for a bit and
3 then it moved off. It may have ended up somewhere
4 around where we have put it.
5 Can you help us about whether, if you think it was
6 further back, you mean around the Instep area or Clarks
7 or Alliance & Leicester?
8 A. Yes. I think it wasn't as far down as that, like. It
9 was definitely a bit back, I think.
10 Q. Did you see policemen out on the street, can you recall?
11 A. No. I don't think so, no.
12 Q. All right. In the police statement you said that you
13 found yourself outside the First Trust Bank next door to
14 the Alliance & Leicester. Then you were following the
15 girls. As you got to Boots the Chemist, you said to the
16 police, you heard the sound of females screaming from
17 behind up. Where is Boots the Chemist on this? If we
18 go round to the left --
19 A. It would have been ...
20 Q. Past Clarks?
21 A. Yes, I think it was on up, yes.
22 Q. Okay?
23 A. It is where Captain Cook's is now, I think. It is
24 pretty much up near the church, like, pretty close to
25 the church.
45
1 Q. Can I show you some documents that relate to the Bowles
2 sisters and a couple of other people to see what you can
3 help us with on that?
4 If we look at page [07777], recalling, of course,
5 that you were follow the Bowles girls, Anne was
6 interviewed on 7th June. What she says here is:
7 "She stated that as they were at the Northern Bank
8 in High Street ... they saw a crowd of about 50 persons
9 in the middle of the road at the junction of
10 Thomas Street/Market Street and that there was a lot of
11 shouting. They then walked up past the police
12 Land Rover to the Abbey National Building Society and it
13 was then that they saw Dean Forbes standing in the
14 traffic reservation in the centre of Market Street.
15 "She cannot say if the police were out of the
16 Land Rover when they passed it, but accepted that they
17 could have been, but it would have been impossible to
18 see, as the crowd was all over the road and people were
19 running everywhere. She will say that there was no
20 persons standing at the police Land Rover when they
21 [passed] it", we think that should be. "She did not
22 know who was with Dean Forbes."
23 Alison said much the same. So the two Bowles
24 sisters told the police, when they were seen in
25 June 1997, that they saw about 50 people. It was so
46
1 busy they couldn't say whether the police were out of
2 the Land Rover or not. There was a lot of shouting.
3 Now, having seen that, can you help us with the
4 shape of this? What did you see people doing?
5 A. I honestly can't remember, like. Going by just what my
6 statement says, that was, to the best of my knowledge,
7 what I can remember from the night, but it just looked
8 as if there was a commotion or a row or ...
9 Q. Okay. Can you recall noise?
10 A. I'm sure there was shouting and roaring, like, but
11 I couldn't honestly say that I can remember hearing
12 noise.
13 Q. Just give us your impressions of it as best you can
14 recall them. Did this seem like a sectarian problem?
15 A. It just looked like a big row.
16 Q. A big and nasty row or just a row that you could walk
17 by?
18 A. Just a commotion. Well, I wouldn't have wanted to be
19 anywhere near it, you know. It was just like a big row,
20 commotion.
21 Q. All right. Let me take you to what Dean Forbes told the
22 police at page [07064]. I should tell you that what he
23 is saying here is, according to this, what he saw when
24 he was with the Bowles girls up and around the church.
25 As you say, you were following them up. So if this is
47
1 right, this is somebody who is further away from the
2 junction than you were and he is saying this.
3 Let's just see what he says. Picking it up from
4 about half a dozen lines down from the top:
5 "... when we got to the back of the Land Rover, we
6 noticed that there was a big row going on and there was
7 already two fellows were lying on the ground.
8 "Question: And what did you do?
9 "Answer: Well, I did what the policewoman had told
10 me to do, backed off.
11 "Question: There was two fellows lying on the
12 ground. Could you describe the position of those in
13 relation to the junction and any of the shops that are
14 there?
15 "Answer: Where Eastwoods shutter was, just sort of
16 level with that in the middle of the road.
17 "Question: What was that? Sorry. We will just
18 deal with this one first of all. What was that man
19 wearing?"
20 He describes that. If we go over the page [07065],
21 about three paragraphs in there is a question:
22 "What was happening at that stage then, whenever you
23 first seen that?
24 "Answer: Well, people were just, you know, getting
25 tore into each other and then the police.
48
1 "Question: What do you mean getting tore into each
2 other?
3 "Answer: Hitting each other with their fists and
4 what have you, and while that fellow was lying on the
5 ground, and then --
6 "Question: Did he -- did you see him being struck?
7 "Answer: Shortly after, when I moved more further
8 back, I could see him getting hit. He was getting
9 kicked even.
10 "Question: Where did you see those kicks going
11 to?"
12 Overleaf [07066):
13 "Just in and around there."
14 He describes the ribs a couple of lines down.
15 Picking it up just over halfway down, there is
16 a question:
17 "Question: And he was kicked about the head. Isn't
18 that right?
19 "Answer: Well, I saw another fellow running in and
20 kicking him from the crowd, but I couldn't see where he
21 was getting kicked.
22 "Question: Where did you see the other fellow on
23 the road?"
24 Overleaf, [07067]:
25 "Answer: The other fellow lying on the road, he was
49
1 lying further back, more near the path of the bakery, so
2 he was, closer to the junction of the corner.
3 "Question: What was he wearing?"
4 He says something about that. Picking it up about
5 halfway down:
6 "Question: And what did you see happening to him?
7 "Answer: Nothing. He was -- he was just lying
8 there and a girl was holding him. She had lifted him up
9 and was cuddling him.
10 "Question: And where -- just tell me exactly where
11 you say you were at that time?
12 "Answer: At that time, I was standing just where
13 the flowerpots were, just in the middle of the road at
14 the neck where they split the junction on that traffic
15 island thing."
16 So he is up by the church or towards the church
17 pretty much outside Clarks, I think, according to that.
18 If that's right, he is able, from there, to see two men
19 on the ground. One of them is being punched and kicked.
20 He is able to see girls cradling. He is able to see
21 people attacking each other and the police.
22 Now, we have not seen him give evidence yet. We
23 don't know whether what he says there is true or not.
24 What I am asking you is whether you can help us with
25 that, because if that's right and if he is up there with
50
1 the Bowles girls, whom you are following, he was able to
2 see that, when you, closer to the action, were unable to
3 see it. Do you see the point?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, having seen and heard that, can you help us with
6 whether, when you were walking up there, this was going
7 on?
8 A. I don't honestly know.
9 Q. If people were being kicked --
10 A. It was just, it was like -- all I can remember, it was
11 like a row. There was a crowd of people. That's all
12 I can remember.
13 Q. I am sorry to keep pressing you on this. You appreciate
14 how important it is?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If that's what, in fact, you saw, ie just a commotion
17 and no particular violence, and you passed the Bowles or
18 caught up with the Bowles girls before anybody could see
19 anybody being kicked or police being attacked and so on,
20 that gives us a very good insight into what was going
21 on. That is why we have to test everybody's memory as
22 best we can.
23 Help us with the sort of person you were then. Did
24 you see commotions in town before this?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean on that day?
51
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Sorry, yes. Was this the first time you had
2 seen a commotion like this in the centre of Portadown?
3 A. I had seen fights and rows before, like, so I had.
4 Q. What was your attitude to them? Did you stand and
5 watch, join in, get away or what?
6 A. Get away.
7 Q. With that attitude, does that mean you were likely to
8 turn your head, not look at it, get out of the way or
9 what?
10 A. I wouldn't have wanted to be involved, like, so get away
11 from it.
12 Q. Is it possible that while this commotion was going on,
13 that a person who was paying attention would have been
14 able to see people being kicked, but you weren't paying
15 attention because you just wanted to have nothing to do
16 with it. Is that likely?
17 A. That somebody could have seen what was going on?
18 Q. That what he is describing could have been going on, but
19 because you were somebody who didn't want to get
20 involved in this sort of thing, you were just getting
21 offside?
22 A. It could have been, yes.
23 Q. If this had been going on, would you have paid any
24 attention to it?
25 A. I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near it.
52
1 Q. If I can take you back to your statement that you made
2 for us at page [81129], if we just look at paragraph 5
3 for the moment -- we don't need to highlight it -- you
4 say there in the middle of that paragraph 5:
5 "... I do remember that around the time I caught up
6 with the girls there was some sort of scuffle in the
7 middle of the street. I wasn't going to see what it was
8 all about."
9 Is that the same as a commotion or are you
10 describing something different there?
11 A. I don't know. That's just what I have been able to
12 remember. Scuffle, row, commotion. They're all ...
13 Q. All right. Then at paragraphs 6 to 8, and again we
14 don't need to highlight them, you were asked to deal
15 with a number of people's names. It amounts to this.
16 You knew Marc Hobson, knew of Wayne Lunt, Rory Robinson
17 and Andrew Allen. You knew Dean Forbes, Stacey Bridgett
18 and Allister Hanvey. Is that fair assessment of that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There is very strong reason to believe that they were
21 all there in the middle of this commotion. What I want
22 you to do is tell us, please, whether you saw any of
23 them that night in that commotion?
24 A. I couldn't say, no. I wouldn't be able to say yes or
25 no, like.
53
1 MR UNDERWOOD: All right, Mr Ritchie. Thank you very much.
2 As I say, other people may have some questions for you.
3 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
4 MR FERGUSON: Mr Ritchie, you had come back from Banbridge
5 with a number of people whom you knew. Isn't that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You then got out with Mr Jameson and you went in with
9 him and then you seem to have walked on on your own?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, now, as you were walking on your own along the
12 road, you heard this commotion behind you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What you told the police in your police statement:
15 "On turning round, I saw a group of 15 to 20 males
16 and females fighting among themselves. I could not
17 recognise anybody from where I was standing. After
18 a few seconds, I resumed my journey."
19 Well, were you not curious as to whether or not any
20 of your friends with whom you had socialised that
21 evening might have been involved in that commotion?
22 A. I just wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near it, so
23 I would have just wanted to walk away.
24 Q. Your curiosity had not been raised at all as to whether
25 or not some of your friends might have been in trouble,
54
1 the victim of an attack perhaps of some sort?
2 A. I just wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near it, to
3 be honest with you.
4 Q. Yes. You just headed on on your own --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- taking no further interest in what was taking place
7 behind you down the road?
8 A. That's what I would have wanted to do, yes.
9 MR FERGUSON: Fair enough.
10 MR ADAIR: No questions.
11 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
12 MR McGRORY: Sir, I do have some questions.
13 Now, Mr Ritchie, I am going to ask you some
14 questions on behalf of the Hamill family.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. You understand that Robert Hamill was effectively kicked
17 to death on this night?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. One of a number of purposes of this Inquiry is to try to
20 find out just exactly what happened.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. You were one of those people who were present on the
23 night in reasonably close proximity to the events that
24 led to Mr Hamill's death.
25 A. Yes.
55
1 Q. Now, can you help me just a little bit more with some of
2 the precise locations? If we could perhaps have the
3 virtual reality, the revolving picture of the
4 crossroads, please, on the screen.
5 Now, it would be fair to say that you came from --
6 thank you very much -- the area just north of the lights
7 here towards the crossroads of Thomas Street,
8 High Street and Woodhouse Street -- would that be
9 correct -- from the direction of Boss Hoggs?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us where Ronnie's pub is on this? Can you
12 help us with the location of Ronnie's pub?
13 A. It is maybe facing the Halifax, sort of on the other
14 side of the road. I am not 100% sure.
15 Q. Can you be a bit more precise about that? Is it in the
16 area on what I am saying is the north side of the
17 junction on High Street? Is it on that side, closer to
18 Boss Hoggs?
19 A. It would sort of be in between Edward Street and
20 Thomas Street.
21 Q. So it is on that side then?
22 A. It is on the right-hand side of the screen, yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it named on the map by any chance?
25 MR McGRORY: I am afraid I haven't found it, sir. No, we
56
1 don't see a PH. That's okay.
2 Anyway, you must have walked past that area -- isn't
3 that correct -- past Ronnie's pub, in order to get up to
4 St Mark's Church where you say you ended up?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were walking past Ronnie's pub, was
7 Timothy Jameson with you at that point?
8 A. No, I think I had left him in Boss Hoggs, going by what
9 I have said.
10 Q. Yes. You cross over. Your intention is to catch up
11 with the Bowles girls. Isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You walk right through the junction?
14 A. I think I would have maybe sort of crossed when I have
15 maybe got up to Thomas Street and walked diagonally
16 towards Clarks. I think that may have been the route
17 I took. I don't honestly know. I couldn't be 100%
18 sure, like.
19 Q. Just stop at any point. How many people were around the
20 staggered crossroads when you crossed over?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. No idea?
23 A. No idea.
24 Q. Well, were there not quite a number of people milling
25 about who had come off the bus and --
57
1 A. I couldn't honestly tell you how many. I don't honestly
2 know.
3 Q. You went into Boss Hoggs for chips? Did you go into
4 Boss Hoggs?
5 A. I think I was in Boss Hoggs, yes.
6 Q. You think you were in Boss Hoggs. You see, you told the
7 police in May 1997 that you did go to Boss Hoggs with
8 Timmy Jameson.
9 A. I must have then.
10 Q. You must have then?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you saying you have no memory of going into
13 Boss Hoggs now?
14 A. No.
15 Q. None whatsoever?
16 A. I can't -- I just can't remember. I am sorry.
17 Q. Can you remember, was there a queue?
18 A. I wouldn't be able to go into detail like that.
19 Q. No. Well, would you accept that there might have been
20 quite a number of people milling about Boss Hoggs coming
21 off the bus?
22 A. There probably was, yes.
23 Q. You came off the bus with quite a number of people,
24 didn't you?
25 A. I would have, yes.
58
1 Q. Well, you see these answers, "I would have", and,
2 "I might have", you did or you didn't get off the bus,
3 Mr Ritchie.
4 A. I did get off the bus, yes.
5 Q. You did get off the bus, yes. So you did get off the
6 bus. Do you remember getting off the bus?
7 A. I can't actually picture myself getting off the bus,
8 like, but, you know ...
9 Q. Would you accept this was a fairly significant event in
10 your young life to this point, in terms of you were
11 present when a serious incident happened in the centre
12 of Portadown?
13 A. Aye. Obviously it is significant, yes. Somebody was
14 killed at the end of the day, yes.
15 Q. You were pretty close to the point where someone was
16 beaten to death. Isn't that right?
17 A. I was, yes.
18 Q. Is that something that has preyed on your mind since
19 then, "Somebody was killed near me"?
20 A. I am just glad I wasn't involved in it, you know.
21 Q. Did you ever give it any thought as to what you might
22 have seen, if you could have helped?
23 A. No. I don't -- you know, I didn't see anything. How
24 could I help then?
25 Q. Well, you cross over here. Now, you say you end up at
59
1 Boots Chemists. Can you help us just where
2 Boots Chemists is? This is what you told the police
3 back in May 1997.
4 Now, do you remember ending up at Boots Chemists?
5 A. I think that's maybe where I caught up with the girls.
6 Q. Do you remember catching up with the girls?
7 A. I couldn't say. I can remember just meeting up with
8 them, like. Obviously that's what happened, but ...
9 Q. Do you say "Obviously that's what happened" because
10 that's what you told the police happened in May 1997?
11 A. No, it must have been what has happened. I honestly
12 can't remember.
13 Q. What I am asking you is this: you are accepting that
14 must have been what happened?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you say you don't remember it happening. Isn't
17 that what you have just told us?
18 A. Yes. I couldn't be 100% sure, like.
19 Q. No, but if you are accepting that it happened, are you
20 accepting that it happened because that's what you told
21 the police happened in 1997?
22 A. It must have been what happened, going by what I have
23 told the police, you know. I would have told the
24 police, to the best of what I could remember, what had
25 happened, like.
60
1 Q. So you accept that if you told the police in 1997 that
2 you had gotten as far as Boots Chemists, that that is
3 what happened?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Right. Thank you.
6 Now, can you tell us where Boots Chemists -- does it
7 still exist?
8 A. Well, the building obviously does, but Boots has moved
9 on up the street.
10 Q. Could you help us with where Boots is on this --
11 A. It is on up towards the town church.
12 Q. Perhaps we could just swivel round. Thank you. That
13 would be -- can you tell us, first of all, which side of
14 the street Boots Chemists was on?
15 A. It was over where the Alliance & Leicester -- that side
16 of the street.
17 Q. Then the next shop is Instep.
18 A. Yes. It would have been further on up yet again.
19 Q. We have Clarks then next. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes. It would have maybe been somewhere up behind where
21 that road sign is, maybe even just the next shop up.
22 I am not 100% sure.
23 Q. If we could perhaps swivel on round a bit further.
24 That's a bit before the church. Isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
61
1 Q. You see, what you told the police in 1997 was that by
2 the time you got to Boots Chemists, you had heard
3 females screaming. Do you remember hearing females
4 screaming?
5 A. I can remember just hearing a big row and commotion and
6 shouting, yes.
7 Q. You turned round to see what was going on?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You saw a group of about 15 to 20 males. Do you
10 remember that?
11 A. Yes, from the statement, yes.
12 Q. I asked you: do you remember it?
13 A. No, I can't remember it, no.
14 Q. You have no memory of this whatsoever?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You saw this group of people fighting with each other.
17 That's what you told the police. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember it happening?
20 A. I can't -- I can't picture it, no.
21 Q. Just can't picture it?
22 A. I just can't remember. Sorry.
23 Q. You then told the police back in 1997 that you didn't
24 recognise any of those people. Do you remember that?
25 A. Well, if it's in my statement, yes, but I can't actually
62
1 remember it.
2 Q. No. So you are not able to tell us who any of those
3 people might have been now, not because you didn't
4 recognise them, but because you just don't remember it
5 at all. Is that right?
6 A. Sorry. Repeat that question.
7 Q. I maybe made that question a bit too complicated.
8 You told the police that you didn't recognise any of
9 the people.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Were you telling the truth at that point?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You didn't recognise any of them?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, you had known Allister Hanvey since childhood.
16 Isn't that correct?
17 A. From junior high school.
18 Q. Yes. What age would that be?
19 A. 12 maybe.
20 Q. 12 or 13 I think you told the Inquiry. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What age were you then at this point on 27th April 1997?
23 A. 19.
24 Q. 19. So you had known Allister Hanvey for about some
25 five years or so. Is that right?
63
1 A. Five or six years.
2 Q. And he was a friend?
3 A. We would have been friendly, yes.
4 Q. But he is someone to you at the time who would have been
5 instantly recognisable. Isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you were also friendly with Timothy Jameson. Isn't
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In fact, you had gone into Boss Hoggs with him. You
11 were in his company that night in the Coach. Isn't that
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Timothy Jameson made a significant statement to the
15 police in the days after this incident. Are you aware
16 of that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You are not aware of it at all?
19 A. I don't know what he said, no.
20 Q. But are you aware that he said something that was
21 important at the time?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by this Inquiry,
24 Mr Ritchie?
25 A. Not really, to be honest.
64
1 Q. You don't remember that?
2 A. I can remember coming down to Belfast and talking about
3 it, like, but ...
4 Q. Yes. That was in April 2006, three years ago.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. You don't remember what you said to the Inquiry people
7 then?
8 A. I couldn't tell you, no.
9 Q. Do you have a memory problem generally?
10 A. No. I just can't really remember.
11 Q. You were informed during the course of that interview
12 that Timothy Jameson had made a significant statement
13 back in 1997. Do you remember being told that then?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You don't even remember that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You denied then that you knew anything about it at that
18 point. Do you accept that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you still know Timmy Jameson?
21 A. I know him, but I don't really socialise or anything
22 with him now, no.
23 Q. So you are utterly unaware over the years that
24 Timmy Jameson had made a statement to the police in 1997
25 that implicated a number of people that he recognised as
65
1 being involved in the assault on Robert Hamill?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You were utterly unaware of that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, in terms of your relationship with Allister Hanvey,
6 are you still pally with Allister Hanvey?
7 A. Not overly, no. I wouldn't run about with him or go out
8 with him or -- we would still be friendly with, you
9 know, if we bumped into each other, but I haven't seen
10 him.
11 Q. Are you aware that he got married?
12 A. He was married, yes. I think he was, yes, but I wasn't
13 at no wedding or ...
14 Q. Do you know who he got married to?
15 A. Tracey?
16 Q. Tracey. Is he not married to her anymore?
17 A. I don't think so, no.
18 Q. Are you aware that they have become estranged, or they
19 are not getting on together recently? Is that right?
20 A. No, I just heard they were split up.
21 Q. Is that right? Do you remember he had children?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that Tracey was the mother of the children?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you bump into him from time to time?
66
1 A. Now and again. I haven't seen him for a long time.
2 Q. You would never have any conversation about these events
3 whenever you do bump into him?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you live in Portadown?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you work in Portadown?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, over the years, especially the period of weeks and
10 months following Robert Hamill's death, would there have
11 been some talk about the town about the incident?
12 A. I'm sure there was, yes.
13 Q. It would have been pretty much on the news, Mr Ritchie,
14 that Robert Hamill had died and that he had been beaten
15 to death in the centre of town.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can we take it that your ears would have pricked up
18 whenever there was some talk about it on the news or
19 otherwise, because you were there?
20 A. What did you say? My ears would have pricked up?
21 Q. If you had heard on the news something about the
22 Robert Hamill case, about Robert Hamill dying, about
23 people being charged with his murder or something of
24 that kind, it would have occurred to you, "I was there"?
25 Would that not have occurred to you?
67
1 A. I would have thought about it, yes.
2 Q. It wasn't a remote bit of news, the way it might be if
3 you hear about some stranger in a different town getting
4 killed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. This was real to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember it being on the news that a number of
11 people were charged with his murder?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that one of those people was Allister Hanvey?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Whom you knew.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. With whom you had been reasonably friendly at the time.
18 Isn't that right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Did you think of anything -- did it occur to you, "My
21 goodness! I didn't see Allister getting involved in
22 that". No?
23 A. No, I can't remember recognising anyone.
24 Q. What I am saying to you is the fact you didn't recognise
25 anyone, did that occur to you? "I saw those guys.
68
1 I didn't recognise them". Did that occur to you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. It didn't occur to you? It didn't occur to you, "I know
4 Allister very well. I was at school with him. He is
5 a chum of mine". Did that occur to you?
6 A. What do you mean, did it occur to me?
7 Q. Well, you turned round at Boots Chemists -- okay? You
8 have accepted that?
9 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
10 Q. You observed 15 to 20 people fighting. Do you accept
11 that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You made a good enough observation of those 15 to 20
14 people to know that you didn't know any of them. Isn't
15 that right?
16 A. I just didn't recognise anyone. I was further on up the
17 street. I was pretty drunk, you know. I can't --
18 Q. But if one of those people had been somebody like
19 Allister Hanvey, who was a friend of yours with whom you
20 had been at school for six years, that you would have
21 recognised them?
22 A. Not necessarily, no. You know, I am sure if I had seen
23 him, but, as I say, I was drunk. I was a right wee
24 distance away from it. I couldn't have -- I didn't
25 recognise anyone.
69
1 Q. Marc Hobson, you knew Marc Hobson, didn't you?
2 A. Not overly well, like. I just sort of maybe knew of him
3 or ...
4 Q. Can you describe him?
5 A. What, like looks, eye colour?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you remember what he looked like at the time?
9 A. I think he had a shaved head.
10 Q. Yes. What was he like, say, for example, weight-wise?
11 A. He would have been slightly stocky maybe.
12 Q. Uh-huh. Did any facial features stand out in terms of
13 whether he had facial hair or not?
14 A. He maybe had a moustache or a goatee.
15 Q. A goatee beard?
16 A. Yes. He may have.
17 Q. Others have described him as having a goatee beard at
18 the time, you see.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. You see, your friend Timothy Jameson, Mr Ritchie, whom
21 you had just left, made some observations of what he saw
22 that night, and he did recognise people.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Are you not aware of that?
25 A. No.
70
1 Q. No, of course not.
2 He made an observation about what Marc Hobson was
3 doing.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. He described him as being overweight and having a goatee
6 beard. That was how he recognised him.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. He observed him fighting with someone, punching a fellow
9 in the face with his fist, a fellow with an Umbro
10 sweater.
11 You didn't see that? No?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He also made observation about Allister Hanvey.
14 Did you see anybody lying on the ground?
15 A. No. I don't think so, no.
16 Q. Mr Jameson saw Mr Hanvey kicking and punching at
17 a fellow on the ground. You are utterly unaware he had
18 done that, he had made those observations and that he
19 had told the police?
20 A. Yes. As I say, I had left Timothy Jameson's company.
21 Q. As for Tracey Clarke, the Tracey you have referred to as
22 being the woman Allister Hanvey married, that's
23 Tracey Clarke, isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see, she also made some observations that night
71
1 which she told the police. Are you aware of that?
2 A. I wasn't aware of anything she had said to the police.
3 Q. Are you telling us at that there was no talk amongst
4 your circles in Portadown in the weeks and months and
5 years after Robert Hamill was killed that Tracey Clarke
6 had identified the man she was to marry as someone who
7 was involved in the murder of Robert Hamill?
8 A. I wouldn't really have run about with Tracey Clarke or
9 been in her company that often.
10 Q. No, but you knew Allister Hanvey well at school. You
11 certainly knew him. Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes. Well, I was in some of his classes, like, yes.
13 Q. There were no whispers or rumours or talk that
14 Tracey Clarke had identified Allister Hanvey as being
15 involved in the murder of Robert Hamill?
16 A. I never heard any of those, no.
17 Q. When Allister Hanvey was arrested for the murder of
18 Robert Hamill, are you saying there was no talk about
19 what the evidence was?
20 A. I can't remember, no.
21 Q. In the months and years surrounding this Inquiry, which
22 was set up towards the end of 2004, and in respect of
23 which you were interviewed in April 2006, was there some
24 talk around Portadown that there was going to be
25 an Inquiry into this murder?
72
1 A. I am sure there was, yes.
2 Q. Did you hear it?
3 A. I read about it in the paper and stuff like that there,
4 yes.
5 Q. Did you think, when you read about it in the paper,
6 that, "Somebody might ask me about that"?
7 A. What do you mean? Here now, or ...?
8 Q. Yes. "There is an Inquiry into the death of
9 Robert Hamill. I was there that night. Somebody is
10 going to ask me some questions about that"?
11 A. Yes, I expected that, yes.
12 Q. Did you ever, whenever you bumped into Allister Hanvey
13 from time to time, say to him, "You were charged with
14 that murder, but they didn't go through with it or
15 whatever." No?
16 A. No, I never really spoke about it.
17 Q. Did you never say to him, "I was there that night and
18 I didn't see you do anything wrong"? No?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Is that because you did see him do something wrong and
21 you are just not prepared to tell anybody that?
22 A. No. As I say, I never seen anything really. I was on
23 up the town.
24 Q. I am suggesting to you, Mr Ritchie, you were really only
25 a matter of metres away and you had a perfectly good
73
1 view of who was fighting.
2 A. No.
3 Q. That you were able to take a decision that you didn't
4 recognise anybody.
5 A. No.
6 Q. That's what you were going to tell the police anyway.
7 A. No.
8 Q. That you saw a lot more than you are letting on.
9 A. No.
10 MR McGRORY: Very well.
11 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
12 MS DINSMORE: Just two questions. I act on behalf of one of
13 the policemen. I just want to ask you: you say you were
14 drunk, how much drink had you taken that night?
15 A. God! I couldn't tell you. I was -- I don't know. Is
16 it in my statement maybe?
17 Q. What is your preferred drink?
18 A. I would have drunk wine before I went to the Coach and
19 then probably beer in the Coach.
20 Q. Are you satisfied you were drunk?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You didn't see anybody lying on the ground at all, so
23 you can't help us with the position as to where those
24 people were?
25 A. No.
74
1 Q. In relation to the police, what did you observe them
2 doing?
3 A. I don't think they were out. I can just remember seeing
4 a Land Rover, but ...
5 Q. Are you saying you didn't see any police?
6 A. Yes. I don't think so, no.
7 Q. Well, you are aware that there were police present?
8 A. Yes. I can just remember the Land Rover, going by the
9 photo there.
10 Q. Were you there when the ambulance arrived? Do you
11 remember the ambulance coming?
12 A. I don't think so, no.
13 Q. So where did you go after you had stopped outside Boots
14 and turned round?
15 A. Corcrain.
16 Q. How long did you stand turned round observing the scene?
17 A. I don't know. It wouldn't have been for very long,
18 I don't think.
19 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
20 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
21 MR UNDERWOOD: I will just ask you a couple of questions
22 arising out of that. If we look back at page [09158],
23 you were asked at the very bottom of that statement --
24 this is the statement you made to the police on
25 13th May 1997 -- you say:
75
1 "I didn't socialise with Dean Forbes that Saturday
2 evening, but", if we go over the page, [09159], "as
3 I was walking up the town from Boss Hoggs, I can recall
4 seeing Dean Forbes and maybe saying hello to him before
5 I reached Ronnie's pub."
6 When you gave that statement to the police, were you
7 doing your best to recall what you had seen?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you remember now seeing Dean Forbes on the way up?
10 A. I couldn't remember, no.
11 Q. Do you remember, when you got up by the church and when
12 you caught up with the Bowles sisters, did you see
13 Dean Forbes up there?
14 A. I don't think so, no.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: That's all I wanted to ask. Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go,
17 Mr Ritchie.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Ritchie.
19 A. Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: This afternoon we were slated to have three
22 witnesses, but one of them, Mr Carville has been slotted
23 into tomorrow afternoon. We will have a reasonably
24 short afternoon. I would invite you to rise now and
25 return when convenient.
76
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 2 o'clock.
2 (12.35 pm)
3 (The luncheon adjournment)sp^ to here
4 (2.00 pm)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I will call Mark Currie, please.
6 MR JOHN MARK CURRIE (sworn)
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Currie.
9 A. Afternoon.
10 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
11 I will ask some questions to start with. It may be,
12 when I am finished, some other people may have a few
13 questions for you.
14 A. Fine.
15 Q. Can I ask you your full names, first?
16 A. John Mark Currie.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look, please, at page [09163]
18 on the screen? Is this a statement you made to the
19 police on 14th May 1997?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What I want to do with you, if I may, is go through it
22 with you and ask you about parts of it, whether you can
23 remember them, whether you can add anything to them and
24 try to build a picture, please, of what you saw on the
25 night of 27th April.
77
1 You describe in the first couple of lines that on
2 the 26th you had been at the Rugby Club in Portadown and
3 left there to walk back home about 1 o'clock or so in
4 the morning.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If we move on down about four or five lines, having
9 stopped to get a take-away, you say you walked up
10 Bridge Street in the direction of the town centre:
11 "About Bridge Street a traffic police car came
12 racing along with its sirens going and its blue flashing
13 lights."
14 By a traffic police car, do you mean a white one
15 with red and orange stripes?
16 A. No, it was just an ordinary white police car.
17 Q. Perhaps we could have a look at the standard map so we
18 can see whereabouts you were. Are we off this map in
19 your description of Bridge Street or is it on here? Can
20 you orientate yourself on this? You see West Street
21 going away to the left. Is Bridge Street off out of the
22 scope of this map?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We have other maps. Perhaps we can have a look at
25 number 3. If we zoom in. We see Market Street
78
1 continuing on. Then it gets onto a very straight road.
2 Where is Bridge Street round there? Can you help us?
3 A. Bridge Street is top left.
4 Q. Hang on. Let's wait for it to stop moving about. Is it
5 very far away from West Street where we see the church
6 was?
7 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: It is a continuation of
8 High Street. North of High Street.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. Of course, you are
10 coming from the Rugby Club area. We can zoom in on this
11 one.
12 You tell us in the police witness statement that the
13 police cars were going past you around Bridge Street.
14 You say it turned into Meadow Lane and then you walked
15 on down the town and saw a taxi outside Z Cabs.
16 Is Z Cabs pretty much where Bridge Street comes into
17 High Street?
18 A. See the Post Office?
19 Q. Uh-huh.
20 A. In around that direction there, the cinema.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Then we can go back to
22 page [09163], please. You go on there to say you saw
23 a taxi outside Z Cabs. You tried to get a lift from it:
24 "Just as I got to about the top of the slight hill
25 at Wellworths, I could see people standing about, and
79
1 the police car, which was on the Thomas Street side of
2 High Street, and a police Land Rover, which was on the
3 Woodhouse Street side."
4 So if we can just now go to the model, we have put
5 a Land Rover here at the junction with Woodhouse Street.
6 Can you help us whether that was where you saw it?
7 A. Roughly about there, yes.
8 Q. The police car was on the side of the street where the
9 photograph was taken, Thomas Street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How far down is Wellworths?
12 A. To the right, about 100 metres.
13 Q. Okay. Is that on the Thomas Street side or the
14 Woodhouse Street side of the road?
15 A. On the Thomas Street side of the road going down.
16 Q. Okay. You go on in the police statement to say that, as
17 you got closer, you could see two men lying on the
18 ground. You think there were a couple of women with
19 them and another man and about ten people standing
20 about.
21 As you have seen, we have maps and we have this
22 model, and we have the ability that you can draw on the
23 street to mark. What I want you to do, as best you can,
24 if you could, please, is mark either on the model or the
25 map where the two men were lying on the ground.
80
1 A. Basically, it is just round where the traffic lights are
2 in this direction here.
3 Q. Right. Let's just hold on a minute while we get the
4 technology up to speed and we can mark on this then.
5 There should be a pen on your desk there, but there
6 isn't.
7 A. No.
8 Q. If we can find something else for you to mark with.
9 MR SPENCE: You should be able to use your finger.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Just trying using your finger. If you can
11 mark where the two men were, as best you can.
12 A. Both were roughly similar place.
13 Q. Right. We will give that a number, number 1. Going
14 back to your statement, if we can, at [09163], about
15 three-quarters of the way down this passage where you
16 have said:
17 "As I got closer, then I could see two men lying on
18 the ground. I think there was a couple of women with
19 them and another man. There were about ten people
20 standing about. There was also some police."
21 Can you describe whether people were moving, whether
22 there was noise, or whether this was a static, quiet
23 scene?
24 A. It was pretty static when I was coming towards it. If
25 there had been trouble, I wouldn't have gone towards it,
81
1 I would have stayed back, but there was nothing
2 happening.
3 Q. Right. We have heard that the women that were with
4 these men were upset.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Understandably perhaps. Can you recall that?
7 A. As I was walking past, somebody shouted something
8 towards people on the floor on the ground and the reply
9 came back, "What do you hate us Roman Catholics for?" or
10 something like that, and somebody else shouted other
11 words back at them again.
12 Q. Can you recall what the man -- you have described there
13 a couple of women with them and another man. Do you
14 recall what the man was wearing?
15 A. No idea.
16 Q. Do you remember what he was doing?
17 A. There was one of them -- people on the floor and people
18 standing over them. They were standing in the middle of
19 the road and the rest of the people were just standing
20 about 15, 20 yards up towards the town church. The
21 police were out as well.
22 Q. I will come to the police in a minute. The 10 or 15
23 people that were further up by the church, did you get
24 the impression that they were a separate group from the
25 ones over the men on the ground?
82
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Antagonistic to them?
3 A. There was a few words being spoken, yes.
4 Q. When you say the police were out, were the police
5 between these groups or what?
6 A. The police were standing, yes, between the two of them.
7 On the middle of the road there was police standing and,
8 as far as I can remember, there was police standing
9 beside the person on the ground and one standing in the
10 middle of the road at the top of Woodhouse Street,
11 Thomas Street.
12 Q. We know at some point the police had batons out. Did
13 you see that?
14 A. When more police arrived, they started pushing the crowd
15 up and batons were drawn.
16 Q. Right. By that stage, can you give us any idea how big
17 that crowd was that was being pushed up?
18 A. It hadn't grew since I got there. It hadn't grown any
19 since when I arrived.
20 Q. You say in this statement, the final couple of lines:
21 "They moved the crowd up past St Mark's Church.
22 Everyone was ushered up past the McGowan Buildings."
23 What happened to you in all that? Were you behind
24 the police or were you by then ushered as part of the
25 crowd?
83
1 A. I was part of the crowd.
2 Q. Once you got caught up as part of that crowd, what was
3 the experience like? What were the crowd doing? Were
4 they being aggressive to the police or what?
5 A. Slow walking. They weren't in a rush to go anywhere.
6 Police were just, you know, pushing them up the road.
7 They weren't in any hurry to move anywhere.
8 Q. Were they being hostile?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What was the atmosphere like?
11 A. Hard to describe really. There was no animosity towards
12 them. They were just people who had been out for
13 a drink and just talking amongst themselves and just ...
14 Q. By this point, the ambulance had come, I think.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If we go over the page, [09164], there what you went on
17 to say is, second line:
18 "I stopped and stood about at the doorway to
19 Dorothy Perkins or thereabouts. There were one or two
20 sectarian shouts or remarks. I think one of the girls
21 who was with one of the injured men said, 'What have you
22 got against us Catholics', or something similar."
23 You go on there to tell us what you have told us
24 about, the passing remarks. Can you tell us whether
25 those remarks were before the police started pushing the
84
1 crowd up or after?
2 A. Before.
3 Q. You say in the final four lines or so of your police
4 statement:
5 "I didn't see anybody kick at the men as they lay on
6 the ground, nor did I see any fighting at all when the
7 police started to move everybody on."
8 Now, we have read statements made by the police. We
9 haven't heard their evidence yet. A number of them say
10 that the people at the very front of the crowd they were
11 pushing back or were attempting to move up towards
12 West Street were pretty aggressive towards them.
13 What the Panel would be interested to know is
14 whether that's accurate, and, if so, whether that's
15 a different situation to the one that you are
16 describing, or whether you were at the back of the
17 crowd, as it were, so you wouldn't have seen it anyway.
18 Can you help us on that?
19 A. I don't remember anyone actually going for the police.
20 I don't remember anybody -- when I was there now, there
21 was nobody shouting anything at the police or going at
22 them, like that there. I got a couple of young lads who
23 were sort of worse for wear. I pulled them out of the
24 road, got them out of the road, but apart from that,
25 there was nobody going to attack the police or ...
85
1 Q. It is going to be important for the Panel to be able to
2 understand what it was the police were facing.
3 I don't want to paraphrase too much, but a number of
4 the officers will, I think, say that by the time back-up
5 had arrived and by the time a sergeant had arrived from
6 the police station, they were able to have enough
7 numbers to start moving people back, but at that stage,
8 with batons out, there were some people at the front who
9 were trying to push through the police lines and who
10 were being very violent towards them. One of the police
11 officers had his baton strap broken. It was a tough
12 push.
13 A. Not that I seen when I was there now. It might have
14 been before that, but not when I was there.
15 Q. Just how possible would it have been for that to be
16 going on while you were being part of the crowd that was
17 moving back up? Is it likely that that could have
18 happened and you didn't see it?
19 A. It could have happened, yes. I didn't see it.
20 Q. Okay. I think you knew Allister Hanvey, did you?
21 A. Vaguely know him, yes.
22 Q. Marc Hobson?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Dean Forbes?
25 A. Vaguely know him.
86
1 Q. Stacey Bridgett?
2 A. Yes, I know him.
3 Q. Did you see any of those in that area that night?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If there were only about 10 or 15 people in the crowd
6 that was being pushed back up, does it then follow that
7 that crowd didn't include any of those people?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you had seen them, would you have mentioned that to
10 the police?
11 A. I didn't see them, so it didn't cross my mind.
12 Q. Can you give any descriptions about anybody else you saw
13 in the group that was being moved up the road?
14 A. Just young fellows, youngsters, that's all, with too
15 much to drink. That was all I remember about them.
16 Q. Were there any girls in the group?
17 A. I can't honestly remember.
18 Q. One other question about this. If you had been given
19 the opportunity to attend an identity parade within
20 a few weeks of this, is it likely that you would have
21 been able to recognise anybody from the scene if they
22 had been --
23 A. Not now.
24 Q. No, at that stage, if they had been put in a parade?
25 A. I couldn't answer that. I have no idea.
87
1 Q. Excuse me. Were there some people you recognised
2 without knowing their names, people whose faces you
3 recognised?
4 A. People I seen in bars within the crowd, I knew they were
5 Protestant because I had seen them in bars. That's how
6 I knew the situation, what was going on.
7 Q. Right. Does it follow from that that you understood
8 that the men on the ground were Catholics?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But you got that presumably from the shouting?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. One other matter. Can I ask you to look at
13 page [81330], please? If we just look briefly through
14 the three pages of this, it is a statement drafted by
15 the Inquiry for you. Did you get a copy of this by
16 post?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it accurate?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why didn't you sign it?
21 A. I never knew what it was for. I asked my solicitor and
22 I told him what it was. I asked him, "Have I to sign
23 it?" and he said, "You are under no obligation to sign
24 it".
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Currie. As I say,
88
1 other people may have some questions for you.
2 A. Okay.
3 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
6 MR ADAIR: Mr Currie, it is really just one matter I want to
7 ask you about. You were asked a question about the
8 possibility of attending an ID parade. Had you seen
9 anybody do anything?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you make that clear to the police when you were
12 talking to them and you made your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
15 MR McGRORY: No questions, sir.
16 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
17 MS DINSMORE: Could we have the model up again, please?
18 Now, Mr Currie, you got off at Bridge Street. You
19 progressed along that road. You came to Z Cabs,
20 couldn't get a taxi and you proceeded on.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, when were you first aware in your sightline of two
23 persons lying on the road?
24 A. About halfway between Edward Street and Thomas Street.
25 Q. Is it appearing on the model there at the moment?
89
1 A. Somewhere about --
2 Q. Could you do a screen shot?
3 A. Further on down from that wee bit, further on down to
4 the right.
5 Q. Further on down beyond the telegraph pole that we can
6 see?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where was Wellworths, at that stage, in relation to
9 that?
10 A. Wellworths is the other side of Edward Street.
11 Q. Okay. So you are walking up there. Was that when you
12 first saw the two persons lying --
13 A. I first recognised --
14 Q. That there were two persons lying on the road?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They were in your sightline right up from there as you
17 got closer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How far did you walk up? You say as you "got closer".
20 How far up did you walk to?
21 A. This is -- the footpath is main side. I kept on that
22 side of the footpath, crossed Thomas Street and walked
23 up the town.
24 Q. So you crossed right across Thomas Street and proceeded
25 on up past Eastwoods and along that way?
90
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you have, all of that time, the persons lying on the
3 road in your view?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you were asked to make markings in relation to
6 where the persons were. Now, before we go to your
7 marking, can you tell me exactly what you remember when
8 you saw those persons?
9 A. I just seen two people on the road, people standing over
10 them. That's ...
11 Q. Well, were the crowd round the two of them in one corps
12 or was there clearly two distinct bodies?
13 A. I remember distinctly seeing one person lying where
14 I said, definitely one person was lying there. The
15 other one --
16 Q. Just so we are clear, one person was lying where you
17 have marked?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where your mark -- I wonder, could we have the mark up
20 again, please, location 1?
21 You have made a marking there and you say there is
22 one person there. That is the middle of the road
23 approximately, in or about the middle of the road?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That's at that side of the Thomas Street junction where
91
1 the Number 7 Bakery is. Is that right? Could we move
2 the -- can we do a 365, please? If we just stop there,
3 please.
4 Now, when you look at where your mark is, isn't it
5 correct to say it is approximately the middle of the
6 road and parallel to that Number 7 Bakery?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that where you saw one person lying on the road?
9 A. I definitely saw one person lying on the road.
10 Q. In relation to -- so the one that you saw is in the
11 middle of the road parallel to Number 7 Bakery?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, in relation to the second person that you saw, tell
14 us exactly what you recall in relation to that person?
15 A. Not much, to be honest with you. I just remember
16 vaguely that one sticks in mind, because that's --
17 he was nearest to me.
18 Q. I don't want to do you any injustice. I appear for one
19 of the police officer who has a recall in relation to
20 where he believes he saw both of the persons.
21 Your recall accords with his, certainly in relation
22 to one of the persons; that is across the middle of the
23 road parallel to number 7 -- towards the middle of the
24 road parallel to Number 7 Bakery.
25 Is your evidence to the Inquiry today that you do
92
1 not know where the second person was?
2 A. I can't remember offhand where the second person was,
3 no.
4 Q. When you told the Inquiry earlier on this afternoon that
5 the second person was beside the first person, do you
6 think you might have been mistaken about that?
7 A. Yes, I probably was mistaken that.
8 Q. So you were mistaken about that?
9 A. I remember seeing definitely one was sitting there and
10 there was crowd round him and there was another body
11 close to it -- maybe not close, beside it.
12 Q. So there was a definite gap in your recall --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- though you cannot remember exactly where number 2
15 was, but you agree with me that there was a definite gap
16 between the person you have a clear recollection about
17 and the other person?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that a fair comment?
20 A. That's fair comment.
21 Q. Would it be correct -- would you have any recall --
22 maybe you could assist me in this -- and if you just
23 can't remember, please feel free to say -- did you walk
24 past the first person and were still aware of the second
25 person?
93
1 A. I definitely remember the one -- I seen on the other
2 side of the road there was something going on, the other
3 side of the road, the central reservation.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. One was there and there was something happening just on
6 the other side of it.
7 Q. Right. So after the one that you are certain about, you
8 are aware that on up the road -- am I putting words in
9 your mouth there -- on up towards the church end there
10 was another person?
11 A. No, no. Towards the other side of the central
12 reservation.
13 Q. Oh, on the other side of the central reservation?
14 A. There or thereabouts. I am not 100% sure.
15 Q. You are not 100% sure about that?
16 A. Not 100% sure, no.
17 Q. If I could just take you to that, what makes you say it
18 was the other side of the central reservation?
19 A. The body was sitting centre and the other one wasn't.
20 It was close to it, but not beside it. So you are going
21 towards the Woodhouse Street area.
22 Q. Perhaps I am confusing you a little. We are clear about
23 what recall you have about one person.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In relation to the other person, have you any recall
94
1 other than there was a gap between the person you do
2 remember and the person that you don't remember?
3 A. There is a definite gap.
4 Q. A definite gap?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you any recall that you are satisfied as evidence
7 that you would give as to where the other person was?
8 A. I could not tell you 100% exactly where it was, but
9 there was a gap.
10 Q. There was a gap, and isn't it correct to say then, when
11 you put an X saying that the two persons were about
12 there, now having reconsidered that, you accept that's
13 not right?
14 A. Not 100% true, because there was --
15 Q. Could we have the marker again? If you say, "Look,
16 I just can't put a mark to do this", feel free to do
17 that, but if you think you can put a mark as to where
18 you second person was, will you do so?
19 A. I couldn't put a mark exactly.
20 Q. It could be the second person could be lying across the
21 middle of the road parallel to premises which were
22 Eastwoods Clothing?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I suppose, if he can't say where he was, he
24 can't answer a hypothetical question like that, can he?
25 A. There was definitely nobody up past Thomas Street.
95
1 MS DINSMORE: But you can't remember where the second person
2 was?
3 A. The other person would have been towards
4 Woodhouse Street, but definitely would not have been up
5 towards the town church.
6 Q. Well, are you telling the Tribunal then that the second
7 person was actually down towards Wellworths?
8 A. Towards Woodhouse Street, that direction.
9 Q. Woodhouse Street?
10 A. Towards Woodhouse Street.
11 Q. Like, diagonally across?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But diagonally across -- because they are not sitting
14 parallel. Is that right? You have no recall about two
15 persons lying parallel?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Therefore, in relation to the person number 1, what your
18 recall -- and it is no criticism of you -- in relation
19 to person number 2, your recall appears to be -- and
20 again, correct me if I am wrong -- that it was more at
21 least towards the central reservation and it was
22 diagonal in relation to person number 1?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. By being diagonal, then it follows as a matter of logic,
25 does it not, that if it is diagonal, it was pointing
96
1 towards the direction of the church as opposed to the
2 direction towards the Bridge Street end, High Street
3 leading on to Bridge Street?
4 A. The first one as I said. The second one would be on the
5 left-hand side towards Woodhouse Street.
6 Q. Yes, but not sitting parallel --
7 A. Not sitting parallel.
8 Q. -- and not behind person number 1?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS DINSMORE: Okay. Thank you very much.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: You are free to go.
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Victoria Clayton, please.
16 MS VICTORIA ELIZABETH CLAYTON (sworn)
17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. My name is Underwood and I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
21 I have some questions for you.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Then, when I have finished, it may be some other people
24 may ask a few questions too.
25 Can I ask your full names please?
97
1 A. Victoria Elizabeth Clayton.
2 Q. I want to take you to some materials, which are maps and
3 models and some statements and so on, to try to get your
4 memory jogged as best we can about the morning of
5 27th April 1997.
6 Can I start by looking at the map we have on screen?
7 I think in 1997 you were about 16 or 17, were you?
8 A. I was 17.
9 Q. On the night that we are talking about, you went to the
10 Coach Inn and came back by bus into Portadown, I think.
11 A. That's right, yes.
12 Q. If we are looking at this map, we know that the bus
13 dropped people off in the area toward the top right-hand
14 corner of this where you see a load of arrows with A, B
15 and C marked in circles there.
16 Where did you go after that?
17 A. We proceeded to walk up town. We stopped to get chips
18 and then walked on up the town towards home, my home.
19 Q. Would that have meant you were going up West Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you stopped for chips, most people seem to have
22 stopped at Boss Hoggs. Is that where you stopped?
23 A. Yes. I think it was further on down the bottom of the
24 town. It is closed now.
25 Q. Boss Hoggs here, in fact, is marked at C.
98
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It follows from that you would have needed to cross the
3 road after that to get over to the other side to be able
4 to get up West Street.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you recall whereabouts you crossed?
7 A. I think it was up towards the church.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. St Mark's Church.
10 Q. If we can have a look at a model now, if we swing this
11 round to the left, you will see that this is taken from
12 just outside Eastwoods. As we are going down, you can
13 see now the church, if we stop it there.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you help us from this whereabouts you were likely to
16 have crossed the road?
17 A. It would have been on up towards the church, maybe where
18 the road sign is, or further on after that.
19 Q. So you would have passed the entrance to Thomas Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can I get you to look at some documents that were
22 completed at about the time of the incident we are
23 talking about?
24 First of all, at page [08115] this is
25 a questionnaire. The police were going round with
99
1 printed questionnaires with questions marked on them and
2 blanks left for the answers. Once they had interviewed
3 someone and put their answers in, they had them typed up
4 and this is yours.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Taken from you, it says, at 8.15 on 29th April.
7 A couple of days later then. The first question is:
8 "Question: You have been identified as being present
9 at Market Street, Portadown on 27th April 1997 at or
10 around the time of a serious assault.
11 "Where were you coming from?
12 "Answer: Banbridge. Got off bus at bottom of town
13 at approximately 1.45 am and walked up town. Walked up
14 past Boss Hoggs and when about church heard shouting.
15 Looked down. Didn't see any fighting, only people
16 running around.
17 "Question: Who was with you?
18 "Answer: Jennifer O'Neill."
19 If we go down to Q5 at the bottom there:
20 "Question: Did you see an assault in Market Street?
21 If so, give details.
22 "Answer: Only people shouting and running about."
23 So within two days of the incident then, the police
24 had discovered you were somebody who was on the scene --
25 A. Yes.
100
1 Q. -- and asked you about it. Your recollection then was
2 only people shouting and running about.
3 Now, were you telling the truth to the police when
4 you were giving them your recollection?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Was it fresh in your mind?
7 A. Well, I think that was only a few days after it happened
8 that the police came to my parents' home. So it would
9 have been fairly fresh, yes.
10 Q. Doing the best you can now, with your memory jogged by
11 that, can you help us about what it was you saw?
12 A. I can remember standing up just around the church area
13 with Jennifer. We got chips. Just really people
14 shouting and running about. There was a lot of people
15 about in the town, but, I mean, that wasn't, you know,
16 unusual, you know. After the bus came home from
17 Banbridge, there would normally have been quite a lot of
18 people about town.
19 Q. Can you help us with what the atmosphere was like? Was
20 it noisy and aggressive, or just boisterous, or what?
21 A. As I say, all I noticed was people shouting and running
22 about. I wasn't really paying any attention to it.
23 I didn't realise what was going on.
24 Q. Did you stay around the church area and watch it or
25 what?
101
1 A. I can't remember how long we stayed there for, but
2 I doubt it would have been very long. I mean, Jennifer
3 stayed at my house every Saturday night and we would
4 normally have just went straight home.
5 Q. If we look to see what Jennifer O'Neill told the police,
6 we see that at page [09153]. She gave a statement
7 a couple of weeks or so later. This was 13th May 1997.
8 The first four lines she describes going to the Coach
9 and coming back. Four lines in she says:
10 "I was with Victoria Clayton on the bus home. I can
11 remember seeing Kyle Magee and Pauline Newell on the bus
12 on the way home."
13 She tells the police about sitting at the front of
14 the bus and the timing. Going down a couple of lines:
15 "I got off the bus with Victoria and Kyle Magee
16 joined us. We walked up the street to Boss Hoggs. The
17 three of us went into Boss Hoggs and I stood inside the
18 door talking to Kyle. Victoria got something to eat for
19 us. The three of us left together and walked up the
20 town centre."
21 Pausing there, can you help on that? Was Kyle with
22 you?
23 A. I didn't actually remember Kyle was with us until
24 I looked at the documents that I had received, but if
25 Jennifer said he was, then he must have been, but, as
102
1 I say, you know, I hadn't really thought anything since
2 I spoke to the police initially and then they brought
3 this to my attention when I first spoke to the Inquiry.
4 Q. I am sure you are doing your best to help us here, but
5 can I try to distinguish between what you accept must be
6 true because Jennifer sees it and what you can now
7 remember because you have had your memory jogged?
8 A. I can't honestly remember Kyle being with us.
9 Q. That's clear. Thank you. All right. Moving on then:
10 "The three of us left together and walked up the
11 town centre. We walked up the left-hand side of the
12 street to the traffic lights in the centre of the town
13 and then we crossed over and walked on up the town past
14 Jeffers."
15 She has you crossing the road rather earlier.
16 Again, does that do anything to your memory?
17 A. No.
18 Q. "There were a few people in the centre of the town, but
19 I don't know them and I didn't pay any attention to
20 them. I recall seeing a police Land Rover parked
21 somewhere on the main street. I can't remember where."
22 Again, we can go back to the model, if you want, in
23 which we put a Land Rover in at the junction of
24 Woodhouse Street. Now you have seen that, does that
25 help your memory and can you tell us whether you saw
103
1 a Land Rover.
2 A. I don't honestly remember. At that time, it wouldn't
3 have been unusual to see police in town at night. So
4 I really -- I didn't pay any attention, you know.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Okay. Then she goes on in the statement:
8 "The three of us walked on towards St Mark's Church
9 at the top of the town, and whilst walking past
10 Connor's Chemist", going over the page [09154], "I heard
11 shouting coming from the direction of the town centre.
12 The three of us stood at the green gate at the side of
13 St Mark's Church and looked down the street. I could
14 see approximately 20 people in the middle of the street,
15 about the middle of the town. About ten of these people
16 were fighting with each other. I observed people
17 throwing punches at each other and others running about.
18 I heard people shouting, 'Fenian bastards', and there
19 was one fellow shouting, 'Orange bastards'.
20 "I could see a police car parked outside Wellworths.
21 I observed it drive up the street with the two-tone
22 horns on. It was one of them police cars with the
23 stripes. It parked about Wellworths. I didn't see
24 anybody lying on the street. The crowd that was
25 fighting was a good distance down the street from me.
104
1 There was a fair crowd standing around beside us and
2 I spoke to Noelle Moore. I just met her as I started to
3 walk off."
4 Dropping down about four or five lines on the
5 right-hand side:
6 "I can remember looking behind me when I got to the
7 security barrier at the top of McGowan Buildings.
8 I could see a crowd of people walking up the street
9 towards us and I could see police behind them moving
10 them up the street."
11 So what Jennifer was able to tell the police
12 a couple of weeks after this incident is, while she was
13 with you walking up -- when she stopped with you,
14 rather, at the side of St Mark's Church, she could see
15 about 20 people and about 10 of those were fighting each
16 other, throwing punches. She heard, "Fenian bastards"
17 and "Orange bastards", being shouted. She sees a police
18 car coming up with two-tone horns on.
19 Then you are there long enough that the scene moves
20 on, and by the time the security barrier is reached,
21 there is a crowd of people being moved up the street by
22 the police. Surely you must have seen that?
23 A. I can just remember looking back down the town from the
24 church and then we walked on. I don't remember any of
25 that, to be honest with you.
105
1 Q. Can you give us any idea why you wouldn't remember it,
2 why you wouldn't have seen it?
3 A. Well, I had drink taken that night.
4 Q. So much that you would have missed a lot of people
5 fighting and a police car coming up with sirens on, do
6 you think?
7 A. I did see, you know, the crowd in the centre of the town
8 and the people running about. I think I can remember
9 shouting, but I can't remember what they were shouting.
10 I don't remember -- I don't remember any of that. I can
11 remember getting the chips and standing at the church,
12 as I say --
13 Q. All right.
14 A. -- and looking down the town.
15 Q. Then if we look at what Kyle Woods had to say to the
16 police, he is somebody who also had a viewpoint from the
17 church. It may be that at the same time as you were
18 there, he was there. It may be that he was there at
19 a slightly different time.
20 If we look at page [09133], as I say, I am not
21 suggesting that he says anywhere in this that he was
22 with you. This is a statement he made on 28th May 1997.
23 Halfway down it he talks about being stopped when, "we
24 reached the front of the church". "We", whoever he was
25 with, didn't go any further than that:
106
1 "I saw a crowd of people in the centre of the town.
2 There was a police Land Rover at the Alliance &
3 Leicester and a crowd coming up towards it from the
4 bottom of the town. There were people standing at the
5 Land Rover talking to the policemen. There was a boy.
6 He was fat and he was shouting 'Tiocfaidh ar la'.
7 I don't really remember what happened next, but I do
8 recall seeing two people lying on the ground at about
9 Eastwoods and the crowd punching and kicking at them.
10 I also heard glass breaking but I didn't see anyone
11 throwing any bottles."
12 Then he goes on, overleaf [09134]:
13 "I saw police trying to push the crowd back."
14 Again, from the viewpoint of the church, we are
15 being told there that people could see serious events
16 going on. As I say, he may not have been there at the
17 same time as you. But, if that had been going on while
18 you were there, are you saying that you just had too
19 much drink on board to take it in?
20 A. I think if I had saw something like that going on, you
21 know, I would have remembered it.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. We must have moved on by that stage or it just wasn't
24 happening whenever we were there.
25 Q. Can we look at page [02150] now, please? This is a note
107
1 by a detective constable who says he interviewed you on
2 29th April. What he says is:
3 "Interviewed Victoria Clayton who stated she was
4 standing at church. Heard shouting. Observed people
5 running about down towards town centre. Couldn't
6 identify any of them. This was at approximately
7 1.45 am. Went on up street. Met fellow at about
8 Right Price Carpets. Had small cut to upper lip.
9 Stated she just went across this fellow's lip with her
10 finger. Not sure of person's identity. Might have been
11 Stacey Bridgett. Stated she didn't know Stacey that
12 well. Denied asking injured party how he came by his
13 injuries. Stated Jennifer O'Neill was with her.
14 Re-interviewed on 30th April 1997. Refused in presence
15 of mother to make statement."
16 The first thing I want to ask you about this is how
17 it was you could recall on 29th April that you had had
18 this incident where you had attended to somebody's
19 cut --
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. -- if you had had that much drink. Is it you could
22 remember parts of things or that you could remember
23 things by 29th April and then you had forgotten them or
24 what?
25 A. This was something that happened after, you know, seeing
108
1 the crowd downtown. This part of it is very vague.
2 I think what happened was, while we were walking home,
3 I saw someone and they had blood just round here and
4 I gave them a tissue and then we just walked on. That
5 was it.
6 Q. But it stuck in your mind?
7 A. Well, a bit, yes.
8 Q. Did it cross your mind to wonder how, if you hadn't seen
9 any fighting, you did see somebody with blood on them?
10 A. I didn't think it was related, you know. I didn't know
11 the seriousness, you know, of what had went on that
12 night, you know. I had no idea that this fellow had
13 anything to do with what had happened.
14 Q. All right. The final couple of lines we see:
15 "Re-interviewed on 30th April 1997. Refused in
16 presence of mother to make statement."
17 Did you refuse to make a statement?
18 A. I don't remember being asked to make a statement.
19 Q. If you had been, would you have done it?
20 A. Well, I'm not sure.
21 Q. Let me just ask about attitudes to the police.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We have had a variety of witnesses, some of whom would
24 have helped police, some of whom wouldn't have helped
25 police.
109
1 Where would you have been on that range?
2 A. Well, if I thought that I had anything, you know,
3 significant to say, yes, I would have helped them, but
4 I didn't believe, and I don't believe, that really
5 anything that I, you know, saw had -- you know, was of
6 significance.
7 Q. All right. If we look at page [15750], please, if we
8 take the top half, this is a note from a different
9 police officer which deals with the culmination of
10 a number of contacts they had in which they set out that
11 they wanted to talk to you again. We see:
12 "Contacted by V Clayton who agreed to be seen on
13 14th June 2001. Interviewed V Clayton at her home in
14 presence of her father. She related that on the night
15 of 26th to 27th April 1997 she was at the Coach Inn
16 Banbridge and that she travelled home on a bus with
17 Jennifer O'Neill to Portadown. There she walked up the
18 town centre, getting chips on the way. States she made
19 her way to the area of the church at the top of the town
20 where she ate her chips."
21 Is that right? You stayed around the church area to
22 eat your chips?
23 A. From my recollection, yes.
24 Q. "V Clayton would say that on the way past the
25 Thomas Street junction she was aware of people on the
110
1 main street generally but that there were no
2 disturbances taking place at this time, and she does not
3 recall having seen any police taking any form of action
4 in relation to members of the public on the street as
5 she made her way to the area of the church.
6 "V Clayton stated that whilst she was in the area of
7 the church, the disturbance took place at the junction
8 of Thomas Street but that she did not go near it. She
9 could not be specific as to any timings of the above
10 movements or events at this stage and cannot recall on
11 whose bus she returned from Banbridge.
12 "When asked if she knew Tracey Clarke or Allister
13 Hanvey, she said that knew them to see but had no
14 association with them. When asked if she knew
15 Robert Atkinson her reply was unconvincing and she
16 hesitated, stating that she had heard the name but did
17 not know him even to see. She also stated that she
18 cannot recall having seen Tracey Clarke
19 or Allister Hanvey in Portadown at the relevant time.
20 "At the termination of the interview, Mr Clayton
21 expressed concern at the number of occasions on which
22 his daughter had been spoken to during the course of
23 this enquiry and asked that this should cease."
24 Now, are you aware that it was Mr Atkinson who gave
25 your name to the detectives, because he told them that
111
1 he had seen you wiping blood off Stacey Bridgett?
2 A. I'm not sure. I think maybe I was informed of it, yes.
3 Q. So he knew who you were and your name or your telephone
4 number was in his book apparently. Did you know that?
5 A. I did know that, yes. My dad knew him years ago.
6 I think actually he used to have a touring caravan and
7 we had one at the same time. I think that's how he
8 knows -- how they know each other.
9 Q. All right. When you were being pressed here in the
10 interview we are looking at about Allister Hanvey and
11 Tracey Clarke, were you telling the truth when you said
12 you had no association with them?
13 A. I probably knew -- you know, I knew them, I am sure, to
14 see. I wouldn't have been great friends or anything
15 with them. I probably would have known Tracey a bit
16 better just from knowing friends of mine and that sort
17 of thing, but ...
18 Q. All right. Did you know Timothy Jameson at the time?
19 A. I did, yes.
20 Q. Dean Forbes?
21 A. I think I knew them all, yes, but not -- you know, I am
22 not sure how I knew them at the time. I probably would
23 have known them to see, but I am not sure, you know, how
24 well I would have known them.
25 Q. We know, of course, that the person whose blood you were
112
1 wiping was Stacey Bridgett. Were you aware of who he
2 was at the time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Rory Robinson, did you know him?
5 A. I think I did know Rory, yes.
6 Q. And Marc Hobson?
7 A. Marc Hobson was at my primary school, but I wouldn't
8 have known him -- you know, I wouldn't have been
9 a friend of his or anything at the time.
10 Q. If these people had been in the crowd that was around
11 the centre of Portadown on the night when you were
12 looking back from the church, would you have recognised
13 them?
14 A. I probably would have, if I was able to.
15 Q. Can we look at page [09143]?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not clear that I know what it means when
17 you say you probably would have recognised him if you
18 were able to. Just explain it, can you?
19 A. I didn't -- I am not aware of them being around my
20 company that night.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: If you had seen them, do you think you would
22 have been able to recognise them?
23 A. Probably, yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: At [09143] we are looking at a statement made
113
1 on 30th April 1997 by Kyle Magee. Picking it up about
2 five lines from the bottom:
3 "There was a large crowd standing outside
4 Boss Hoggs. I stood there for about ten to
5 fifteen minutes. Victoria Clayton and Jennifer O'Neill
6 were also outside Boss Hoggs and I spoke to them.
7 I then ran back down to Herron's to see Conor Black.
8 I asked Conor if I could go back to his house", overleaf
9 [09144], and if we enlarge the whole of this, "as I knew
10 his mother and father were away. I asked Conor if
11 I could bring Victoria Clayton and Jennifer O'Neill
12 back. Conor said no as his sister was home. I walked
13 back up to Boss Hoggs and met up with Victoria and
14 Jennifer again. I stood outside Boss Hoggs with the two
15 girls. I think Timothy Jameson and Stephen Bloomer were
16 standing beside us.
17 "The next thing I saw was a crowd starting to fight
18 on the middle of the street at the junction of
19 Woodhouse Street with Thomas Street."
20 So there what he is saying is that you, he and
21 Jennifer O'Neill were standing at Boss Hoggs when the
22 fight started. Can you help us on that?
23 A. I would say that's incorrect. I would have remembered
24 that.
25 Q. Then he goes on:
114
1 "There would have been about 20 fighting. I started
2 to walk towards the fight and Victoria and Jennifer
3 walked with me. I got near the fight. I got close to
4 it. I saw about 20 boys fighting. The police
5 Land Rover was parked outside the Alliance & Leicester
6 Building Society and I saw a couple of police officers
7 get out of the Land Rover and walk towards the fight.
8 I started shouting at the police. I can't remember what
9 all I called them. I then walked up towards the church
10 with the two girls Victoria and Jennifer. The crowd was
11 still fighting. I walked up to the church. Jason Woods
12 was standing about there. I walked down to the summer
13 seats just down from the church towards the town centre.
14 I sat down with Victoria and Jennifer for a few minutes
15 and watched the fight. The ambulance arrived.
16 "I observed a fellow lying on the ground in the
17 middle of the road on Thomas Street side of the
18 Main Street. I think he was lying in a pool of blood.
19 The police had got the fight under control by now. The
20 police marched the people up the town up past the
21 church. I walked up West Street with Victoria and
22 Jennifer too."
23 So he is saying not only did he see the start of the
24 fight when he was with you at Boss Hoggs, but, in
25 walking past it, he had a good shout at the police and
115
1 could see what was going on, and, when he got up to the
2 church with you, he could see somebody lying on the
3 ground.
4 Now, how could that be right?
5 A. I strongly disagree with that.
6 Q. Do you accept you were with him?
7 A. I may have been with him at some stage, but, you know,
8 I definitely didn't see anything like that going on.
9 Q. It may well be that he was involved in the trouble here
10 and he is using you as an alibi. That's a possibility,
11 of course. That you saw him at some point, and what he
12 is telling the police is he was with you throughout and
13 you could back him up.
14 What you are telling us then is you are not going to
15 back him up. Is that fair?
16 A. As I have already said, I can't even remember Kyle being
17 with us that night. You know, he could have been with
18 us. You know, I just don't recall. I mean, there were
19 people walking up the town. He could have been behind
20 us or in front of us, but nothing -- I don't remember
21 seeing anything like that happening.
22 Q. Right. There is one other matter I want to ask you
23 about. Can we look at page [80191]? This is
24 a three-page document. Perhaps we could just very
25 briefly look at the other two pages of it. It is
116
1 a statement that has been drafted for you by the
2 Inquiry --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- arising out of an interview you gave to the Inquiry.
5 Have you been provided with a copy of this?
6 A. Yes, I got one last week.
7 Q. Is it true? Is it accurate, I mean?
8 A. As far as I can gather, yes.
9 Q. Is there any reason why you haven't signed it?
10 A. I wasn't asked to sign it.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. Other
12 people may ask questions, as I say.
13 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
14 MR ADAIR: No questions.
15 MR McGRORY: Sir, I have some questions.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
17 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
18 MR McGRORY: Miss Clayton, I am going to ask you some
19 questions on behalf of the Hamill family.
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. You were just asked some questions about the extent to
22 which you might have been close to Kyle Magee when he
23 made the observations that he made.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. You say that under no circumstances were you with him at
117
1 that time.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. You accept that, had you been, you would have seen those
4 things that he saw?
5 A. I definitely didn't see what he saw.
6 Q. No, but do you accept that, had you been with him at
7 that time, that you would almost certainly have also
8 seen the trouble that was going on?
9 A. Well, if he claims to have seen those things, yes, if
10 I had been with him.
11 Q. Now, insofar as you were with your friend
12 Jennifer O'Neill, she has said that the extent to which
13 she was aware that something was going on was when she
14 was up at the church and she heard shouting.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Now, you don't even accept that you heard that. Is that
17 right?
18 A. I think I did say I heard shouting.
19 Q. So you did hear shouting?
20 A. I think I did say in one of my -- whenever the police
21 first talked to me, I heard shouting.
22 Q. Well, let's just have a look at what you told the
23 police. If I could have page [02150] up again, please,
24 this appears to be a record of an interview you had with
25 DC Honeyford on 29th April 1997. I think you have been
118
1 shown this already. This would have been within
2 a couple of days of the incident. There you do say you
3 heard shouting and you observed people running about
4 down towards the town centre:
5 "This was approximately 1.45 am. Went on up street.
6 Met fellow at about Right Price Carpets. Had small cut
7 to his upper lip. Stated she just went across this
8 fellow's lip with her finger. Not sure of person's ID.
9 Might have been Stacey Bridgett. Stated she didn't know
10 Stacey that well. Denied asking injured party how he
11 came by his injuries."
12 Now, when you were interviewed by the Inquiry, they
13 have recorded an answer that you gave them in the
14 interview that you did not hear any shouting or
15 sectarian abuse, but do you accept that was not
16 necessarily an accurate answer?
17 A. Well, I knew after -- I only saw these other documents
18 there last week. From reading over them, you know,
19 I have been trying to familiarise myself with things.
20 I know I had said I heard shouting initially.
21 Q. So that has jogged your memory at least about the
22 shouting --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- has it?
25 So Jennifer O'Neill is accurate when she says that,
119
1 when you were in her company, shouting could be heard.
2 Now, this document that's on the screen, you say
3 that Jennifer O'Neill was with you. You were
4 re-interviewed on 30th April 1997. Do you remember the
5 second interview?
6 A. I don't at all. I remember the police calling, but
7 I can't remember the specifics.
8 Q. Yes. This was in the presence of your mother this time.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Have you any recollection as to why the police wanted to
11 interview you a second time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, on the first time, on 29th April, you obviously
14 had told them about wiping the blood from somebody's
15 nose.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. You had identified that person as possibly being
18 Stacey Bridgett. Do you accept that?
19 A. I don't recall the content of that visit. I am sorry.
20 Q. I am talking about the first visit now. This is the one
21 when you are not with your mother, but probably on your
22 own, on 29th April, which DC Honeyford has recorded
23 here, during which you told him you met a fellow. He
24 had a small cut to his upper lip:
25 "Stated she just went across this fellow's lip with
120
1 her finger. Might have been Stacey Bridgett."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Do you agree now that DC Honeyford has recorded that you
5 identified this person as possibly being
6 Stacey Bridgett?
7 A. I just said it was a person. He put it to me, he asked
8 me if it was Stacey, but I couldn't confirm that.
9 Q. Well, if you remember that he suggested the name to you,
10 that would suggest that you actually remember the
11 conversation.
12 A. I just remember, yes, part of the conversation, but
13 I couldn't tell you when this conversation took place,
14 at what stage or what visit.
15 Q. Well, we know it took place two days after the incident
16 if DC Honeyford is correct about this.
17 A. I was visited a few times by the police.
18 Q. Let's concentrate on the first time. It is within two
19 days of the incident. Are you now saying that
20 DC Honeyford suggested the name Bridgett to you?
21 A. I can't be certain.
22 Q. Did you just make that answer up?
23 A. No, I didn't make the answer up. I can't be certain.
24 Q. To get away from the fact you actually remember it was
25 Stacey Bridgett?
121
1 A. No, not at all.
2 Q. You knew it was Stacey Bridgett, didn't you?
3 A. No, that's not true.
4 Q. Well, if you saw a complete stranger in the street with
5 a cut, would you go over and offer them a hanky?
6 A. I probably would, yes.
7 Q. You would? Without having any inkling as to how they
8 got the cut?
9 A. It's just -- I didn't think about what I was doing at
10 the time. You know ...
11 Q. Are you sure you didn't see how he got the cut?
12 A. I'm positive.
13 Q. You didn't see him being involved in the fighting?
14 A. I was just trying to be friendly to someone that was
15 hurt.
16 Q. Would it be the case that you were more than being
17 friendly, you were actually going to his aid, as you saw
18 it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you absolutely certain about that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, do you know Timothy Jameson?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Before I go on to Timothy Jameson, I just want to ask
25 you about the subsequent meeting on 30th April.
122
1 Now, if you remember talking to DC Honeyford on
2 29th April and you remember that he might have suggested
3 the name Bridgett to you, do you remember whether or not
4 you were on your own when you spoke to him?
5 A. Who to, sorry?
6 Q. To DC Honeyford on 29th April?
7 A. I can't, no.
8 Q. Do you remember being with your mother when you spoke to
9 him the next day?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you remember the police coming back to you within
12 24 hours?
13 A. I know that they revisited me, but I can't remember, you
14 know, how close it was to the initial visit or -- I just
15 know they came to see me a couple of times.
16 Q. Did it concern you that they wanted to speak to you
17 again within 24 hours?
18 A. It did, yes, yes.
19 Q. You see, what we were talking about at this stage is
20 a situation where a man who was still alive at this
21 point had been subjected to a very serious beating, and
22 you now know that he subsequently died of those injuries
23 and that his name was Robert Hamill, and that the police
24 would have been under a duty to investigate that, and
25 that if there could have been any information that they
123
1 could glean from talking to people who were down there
2 on the night that would assist them in finding out what
3 happened to Robert Hamill, it was very important to them
4 to chase up that information.
5 Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes, I understand, yes.
7 Q. Do you understand why they might have been coming back
8 to you within 24 hours?
9 A. Well, I just thought they were going to revisit and go
10 over everything over again. I mean, I found it all very
11 distressing. I had never been in trouble with the
12 police before and my parents weren't very happy about
13 it.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: But you weren't in trouble now with the
15 police, were you? They were simply approaching you as
16 a witness.
17 A. No, it was just them coming to the house and my parents,
18 you know, weren't very happy about it.
19 MR McGRORY: Well, you see, this is why I am puzzled about
20 why you weren't necessarily forthcoming with them on
21 30th April 1997, one day later. You were able to
22 identify the person whom you offered the hanky to, who
23 had a cut nose.
24 A. I wasn't able to identify anyone.
25 Q. Let's just take it that as far as DC Honeyford was
124
1 concerned, you at least partially agreed that it might
2 have been Stacey Bridgett at the very least. You didn't
3 say to him, "Oh, it definitely wasn't Stacey Bridgett.
4 I know Stacey Bridgett".
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Okay? As far as DC Honeyford is concerned, you could
7 have been of some help.
8 A. Well, as far as I was concerned, I had told them all
9 I knew.
10 Q. Well, do you accept that was the reason why he probably
11 came back to you the next day?
12 A. I thought it was just to go over everything all over
13 again, you know.
14 Q. But unfortunately, his note of what happened the next
15 day is all too brief:
16 "Re-interviewed 30.04.97. Refused in presence of
17 mother to make a statement."
18 With hindsight, do you not think it would have been
19 of some help if you could have cooperated with
20 DC Honeyford about what you did know when he spoke to
21 you again on 30th April?
22 A. Well, as I have already said, I felt that I had told
23 them everything I knew and I was under no obligation to
24 make a statement.
25 Q. Could it be the case that, in fact, you didn't tell him
125
1 everything you knew?
2 A. No.
3 Q. No? Okay.
4 Could I have page [17656] on the screen, please?
5 Now what this is, Ms Clayton, is a statement made on
6 9th May 1997 by Timothy Jameson.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. You told my a few moments ago you knew Timothy Jameson.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you still know Timothy Jameson?
11 A. I haven't seen him in ages. I wouldn't be in contact
12 with him at all.
13 Q. He obviously knew you.
14 Do you see the last five lines:
15 "I also observed Vicky Clayton in the crowd being
16 pushed up the street by the police."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. I see it, yes.
19 Q. Now, he has put you in the crowd being pushed up the
20 street by the police.
21 A. Well, I would strongly disagree with that.
22 Q. Yes. This is another person with whom you strongly
23 disagree who observed you right down there in the heart
24 of things. Do you see that?
25 I don't want to go through it in huge detail because
126
1 it would take up a fair amount of time, but this is the
2 very end of the statement Timothy Jameson made on
3 9th May 1997. In that statement he gives a very
4 detailed account of what he saw and events as they
5 unfolded and of Robert Hamill being attacked, of
6 fighting in the street. He names a number of people
7 involved in that. He describes how the police came, how
8 they had batons -- a rubber-bullet gun, rather.
9 So this is sort of at the end of things, right at
10 the end of the events as described as Timothy Jameson,
11 and lo and behold, there is Vicky Clayton being pushed
12 up the street by the police.
13 A. I strongly disagree with that.
14 Q. Why would Timothy Jameson invent you being there and
15 just stick it in the statement?
16 A. I don't know if he was maybe getting me mixed up.
17 I don't agree with that at all.
18 Q. But you knew him anyway and he knew you. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, do you know Tracey Clarke?
21 A. I do know her, yes. Not very well.
22 Q. You know her now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you knew her then. You knew her back in 1997,
25 didn't you?
127
1 A. I did know her, yes.
2 Q. Would you not describe her as a friend?
3 A. More of an acquaintance.
4 Q. Do you know who she is married to?
5 A. I do, yes.
6 Q. Who is she married to?
7 A. She is married to one of the accused.
8 Q. One of those who was accused?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What's his name?
11 A. Allister Hanvey.
12 Q. Do you know him?
13 A. Not very well. He -- I didn't really know him at the
14 time, but ...
15 Q. You knew her all right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you say that you stayed in Jennifer O'Neill's house
18 that night.
19 A. No, sorry. Jennifer stayed at my house.
20 Q. Sorry. She stayed at your house that night. Yes,
21 sorry. My apologies.
22 Did you go anywhere before you went back to your
23 house?
24 A. No, we went straight home.
25 Q. Straight home?
128
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You didn't go to a party anywhere?
3 A. Definitely not.
4 Q. Can I have document [70901] on the screen, please? Now,
5 at the bottom of that is an entry:
6 "Party at house."
7 Do you see that, the last four or live lines?
8 A. Uh-huh, yes.
9 Q. Are you aware there was a party going on that night?
10 A. Since then, yes. I definitely did not attend it.
11 Q. Tell us how you found out about it since then?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Well, you must have heard about it from somebody?
14 A. Yes. I heard about it and then -- was it not one of the
15 questions asked to me whenever I met the Inquiry the
16 first time?
17 Q. I am asking you about it now.
18 A. Yes, it was.
19 Q. So since then, you have heard about the party?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Since 1997?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell us how -- who told you about it?
24 A. Well, I was definitely informed -- asked at the Inquiry
25 if I was at it the first time I met yous.
129
1 Q. But are you telling us you only heard about it because
2 the Inquiry asked you about it?
3 A. I think so, yes.
4 Q. You didn't hear about it before then?
5 A. I'm not sure. I can't say, but I definitely wasn't at
6 a party that night.
7 Q. Tracey Clarke didn't tell you about it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Nobody else told you about it. Do you know any of these
10 individuals listed under the entry:
11 "Party at house."
12 Tracy McAlpine, Pauline Newell, do you know these
13 people.
14 A. Vaguely.
15 Q. Vaguely?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know where the house was at the time?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. I believe it was in Brownstown. Where was your house?
20 A. My house was in [redacted].
21 Q. Do you see these other people: Kelly Lavery,
22 Allister Hanvey --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- "Fonzy", Dennis, Iain Carville? If we could go over
25 the page, please, [70902]. Do you know any of those
130
1 people?
2 A. Yes. I definitely wasn't at that house.
3 Q. "Chris Henderson, [redacted], Stephen Bloomer" --
4 A. Definitely not.
5 Q. -- "[Andrew Hill], Lisa Hobson, Dean Forbes, Vicky Clayton."
6 A. Definitely not.
7 Q. So Tracey Clarke is mistaken about that?
8 A. She definitely is. I know for a fact that night that
9 I went straight home with Jennifer. Jennifer stayed at
10 my house every Saturday night.
11 Q. Yes. Are you sure Tracey Clarke is not a fairly good
12 friend of yours?
13 A. Positive, yes.
14 Q. Would you have her phone number?
15 A. I have it now, yes.
16 Q. Do you normally keep phone numbers of people who are
17 acquaintances?
18 A. She actually asked my advice about something, about
19 an application form recently, but that was it.
20 Q. So you are friendly enough for her to ask your advice
21 about application forms?
22 A. I don't run about with her.
23 Q. No. Did she discuss this Inquiry with you?
24 A. Not at all.
25 Q. Not at all?
131
1 A. No, definitely not.
2 Q. Can I have page [27303] on the screen, please? The very
3 bottom third would be helpful. Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the document?
5 MR McGRORY: This is a document dated 15th November 2000,
6 Ms Clayton.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. It is a statement given to the police by [name
9 redacted] --
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. -- who is Tracey Clarke's mother.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay?
14 "I have given to H a page from my phone book with
15 the name Vicky Clayton and her phone number on it."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I do, yes.
18 Q. So Tracey's mother had your phone number.
19 A. Maybe Tracey had it. I don't know her mother.
20 Q. Is it not correct that you and Tracey go back a long
21 time?
22 A. We didn't go back a long time. I mean, she was just
23 someone that I sort of ran about with.
24 Q. You know all about what Mr Hanvey did on the night of
25 27th April.
132
1 A. Definitely not, no.
2 Q. You were right down there, were you not?
3 A. I was not, definitely not.
4 Q. And under no circumstances are you going to give up your
5 friend's husband. Is that right?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Or anybody else that you would have recognised?
8 A. I totally disagree with that. I have told you I was up
9 at the church and I saw shouting and running about.
10 I don't know any more than that. I am sorry.
11 Q. You see, I am suggesting to you that you have not told
12 the truth to this Inquiry about what you saw that night.
13 A. I have told the truth.
14 Q. That the evidence would suggest that, in fact, you were
15 there a lot longer and a lot later within the events
16 than you have said.
17 A. I disagree with that.
18 Q. Otherwise Kyle Magee, Timothy Jameson have put you right
19 down in the heart of matters for no good reason.
20 A. I can't explain that, but I have told you all I know, as
21 I say.
22 Q. No good reason.
23 Now, the police had made some considerable efforts
24 to talk to you at a subsequent stage -- isn't that
25 correct -- in 2001?
133
1 A. I can vaguely remember them coming into contact.
2 Q. Just vaguely?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Page [15749], please. The very bottom part of that
5 page, please. Now, I may need some assistance with the
6 Inquiry in terms of dating this. Do you see there it
7 says:
8 "Continue efforts to interview N35 Clayton. Refers
9 to Victoria Clayton. Continue to make efforts to
10 interview her regarding matters as outlined. Also list
11 all dates and times of calls made to interview this
12 witness."
13 Do you see that entry?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. That would suggest they were having some difficulty
16 getting hold of you.
17 A. Yes, it would.
18 Q. Were you dodging the police at this time?
19 A. I wasn't dodging the police. As I have already said, it
20 was a very distressing time for me. I was a young girl,
21 and I do believe my mother contacted the police about
22 that.
23 Q. We already know that back on 30th April 1997, in the
24 presence of your mother, you refused to make
25 a statement. Is that right?
134
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can we take it you weren't exactly getting any
3 encouragement at home to help the police?
4 A. How do you mean?
5 Q. Well, you were in the centre of Portadown on the night
6 of 27th April. A man was murdered. Do you accept that?
7 A. Yes.
[SECTION REDACTED ]
[MR McGRORY]
22 You certainly appear to have come into contact with
23 someone who would have been involved in the fighting
24 that night. Do you accept that?
25 A. May have, yes.
135
1 Q. That is information that may have been of value to the
2 police in terms of their investigation.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Do you accept that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The next day, when you were asked to give a statement
7 which might have assisted the investigation, in the
8 presence of your mother you refused.
9 A. I was under no obligation to give a statement.
10 Q. I am not saying for one moment that you were under
11 an obligation, but would you not have regarded it as
12 your civic duty to help the police in a murder
13 investigation?
14 A. As far as I could see, I had no involvement in it, you
15 know. That's all I can say on the matter.
16 Q. Well, is it the case, Ms Clayton, that certainly amongst
17 a section of the Protestant community in Portadown,
18 a section of it who knew about these events, there was
19 a wall of silence being put up?
20 A. Not on my part.
21 Q. Now, if we go back to the document that's on the screen,
22 the very last line:
23 "Initial contact made with V Clayton's father who
24 undertook to have her contact me."
25 Then if we go over the page to [15750]. You have
136
1 seen this document already today. The top section of
2 text is the relevant bit. At the very end of that it is
3 made clear that your father voiced objections to the
4 number of times the police had wanted to speak to you.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Again, even though this is probably much later -- it may
7 have been as late as 2003 when you were being asked
8 these questions again -- would you not have regarded it
9 as helpful to the police to be able to cooperate with
10 them?
11 A. As I have already said, as far as I was concerned, I had
12 told them as much as I could, as much as I knew.
13 Q. You see, it is four years since you appear last to have
14 been spoken to, maybe even six years. This is 2003.
15 Certainly quite a few years. So it is hardly that they
16 were banging your door on a regular basis, is it?
17 A. I knew that they had called a few times.
18 Q. Well, is it the case, Ms Clayton, that you simply
19 couldn't speak to the police, because you knew far too
20 much?
21 A. Not at all. Not at all.
22 Q. The police, when they spoke to you on this occasion,
23 seemed to be interested in the fact that there was
24 a connection between your family and the family of
25 Mr Atkinson?
137
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Were you aware of Mr Atkinson's connection with this
3 case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you aware that Tracey Clarke had made an allegation
6 about Mr Atkinson's conduct that night?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Not aware at all?
9 A. I didn't know that until I read it in the newspapers.
10 Q. When did you read it in the newspapers?
11 A. I couldn't tell you. It wouldn't have been for quite
12 some time after anyway.
13 Q. Are you sure you wouldn't have been able to give the
14 police some help about that?
15 A. No, definitely not.
16 Q. Well, again, we could spend all afternoon at this,
17 Ms Clayton, but I am going to suggest to you finally
18 that if you know something --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- if you know something, you should tell it to the
21 Inquiry.
22 A. I have already said all I know. I'm sorry.
23 MR McGRORY: I can take it no further.
24 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
25 MS DINSMORE: Now, Ms Clayton, I appear on behalf of
138
1 Mr Robert Atkinson, the police officer. Just at the
2 outset, do you know Mr Atkinson?
3 A. As I have already said, he had a touring caravan -- as
4 far as I can remember, he had a touring caravan years
5 ago and our family also had one. I think we used to
6 meet up, you know, some weekends.
7 Q. The only point I am making to you is that you would know
8 him to see.
9 A. I would know him to see now, but not at this time.
10 I mean, that was years ago, when I was a child, that we
11 used to go away together.
12 Q. Well you were -- what age were you when this incident
13 occurred?
14 A. 17.
15 Q. Well, Mr Atkinson knew you, and that wouldn't take you
16 by surprise at all?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I should say to you that Mr Atkinson's position is that
19 he never witnessed you involved in any disorder, but
20 what he does say -- and I understand you take no dispute
21 with this -- is that he recalls seeing you wiping blood
22 from the face of Stacey Bridgett. Do you agree with
23 that?
24 A. Yes, that has been put to me, yes.
25 Q. I am not asking you has it been put to you, I am asking
139
1 you: do you agree that you wiped blood from the face of
2 Stacey Bridgett?
3 A. No. I don't know if it was Stacey Bridgett. The memory
4 is very vague in my mind.
5 Q. Right. So the furthest you will go is to say, "Yes,
6 Mr Atkinson could well have known me and recognised me
7 and that he is right when he says he has seen me wiping
8 blood off somebody's face", but you know not who that
9 person was?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That is the position?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, you got off at Bridge Street and you walked -- got
14 your chips and walked right up. So you had a walk right
15 up all of High Street --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- across the junction at Thomas Street and proceeded
18 right on up to the church?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, after you got your chips, could you just tell us
21 where were you on Bridge Street when you first noticed
22 a crowd in the town?
23 A. Well, there was a crowd about the town, but at that
24 stage there was no trouble, you know.
25 Q. Now, when you say "there was a crowd about the town",
140
1 can you tell the Inquiry exactly what you mean by "there
2 was a crowd about the town"?
3 A. I mean there was people here and there. The bus would
4 have been full coming home and then there would have
5 been other people making their way home from other
6 places. So, you know, it wasn't abnormal to see a lot
7 of people making their way in different places about the
8 town and in around the town area.
9 Q. So what you are saying is, "After I got off the bus, as
10 I proceeded up part of the way along the town in any
11 event, what I saw were people about in groups, but not
12 anything I would describe as a crowd"?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Now, as you proceeded up, where were you when you first
15 noticed what you call a crowd?
16 A. At the church, I believe.
17 Q. So are you telling the Inquiry that you proceeded right
18 along past the junction of Thomas Street right on up to
19 the church before there was a question of you witnessing
20 a crowd?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: She has just said that.
22 A. Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't answer that question. You have
24 answered it once.
25 MS DINSMORE: Thank you. When did you move from the church
141
1 to Right Price Carpets?
2 A. It was so long ago. I just don't know. I can't imagine
3 I would have stood about town that long. I don't know.
4 I can't remember.
5 Q. You accept that Right Price Carpets is not at the
6 church --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- it is on up West Street?
9 A. Yes. I don't think it is there anymore actually. I am
10 not sure.
11 Q. But in those days it was?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So what you are saying is, therefore, that not only did
14 you proceed to the church, but some time later -- you
15 know not how long -- you then moved up West Street to
16 Right Price Carpets?
17 A. Well, that's the way I would have walked home.
18 Q. I am not criticising you in relation to that. I am just
19 asking you factually to tell us was that the position?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, can you tell us, between you first seeing the crowd
22 and being up at Right Price Carpets, everything you saw?
23 A. I honestly don't remember what happened. I don't know.
24 I couldn't say.
25 Q. Well, we know that you had noticed a crowd that you
142
1 hadn't noticed before you got to the church. Isn't that
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, where were you when you noticed them? You have
5 told us the church. Just tell us, after you noticed the
6 crowd, exactly what did you see happening.
7 A. As I have already said, there was just people running
8 about the town. It just looked like drunk people.
9 Q. How did that scenario differ from groups of people?
10 I mean, a crowd I would have to suggest to you was
11 an amassing of people, people getting together in
12 a large group. Isn't that right?
13 A. It could have been groups together. I mean, as I have
14 already said, I didn't really pay that much attention at
15 the time.
16 Q. Well, you have told us you saw a crowd. I am simply
17 asking you to explain what you understand by a crowd and
18 what you saw?
19 A. Just a group of people running about.
20 Q. Did you see any police?
21 A. I can't remember if I saw police or not.
22 Q. Well, as you were at the church, was there anything then
23 you say you saw other than people running around?
24 A. I don't remember. That's all I can remember.
25 Q. You see, I am loth to take time and press you on this,
143
1 but I need to understand your mental distinction between
2 the concept of a crowd and the concept of groups of
3 people, some of whom are running around.
4 Now, can you just explain that to us, please?
5 A. I don't really understand what more you want me to
6 explain. There were people about the town that night,
7 lots of people about the town. There were people
8 running about in the middle of the town. That's all
9 I can say.
10 Q. Well, were they running around in a mass together?
11 A. I honestly don't remember.
12 Q. Well, can you remember this crowd moving towards the
13 church area?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So you never saw them proceeding up the street?
16 A. I can't remember. I'm sorry.
17 Q. Well, are you saying that you have no recall at all of
18 a movement of the crowd?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Well, you see, do you accept that the police moved the
21 crowd up?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. You just can't remember?
24 A. No. I can't remember.
25 Q. So basically, your only memory is people running around
144
1 in groups in a drunken fashion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How was that behaviour different from what you saw
4 earlier on after you got your chips before you
5 approached at the church?
6 A. Well, I don't recall walking up the town and seeing
7 people running about, you know. As I have said, there
8 were just people walking up the town making their way
9 home.
10 Q. Groups of them?
11 A. People here and there, yes.
12 Q. So is the only distinction between the concept of
13 a crowd and groups of people not being a crowd that some
14 of them run about? Is that the only distinction?
15 A. It is just what I remember from that night.
16 Q. Then you met the person with the blood on their face.
17 That was at Right Price Carpets?
18 A. I believe so.
19 Q. You believe that. So that person had proceeded up past
20 the church and was a distance up West Street. Isn't
21 that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That must be right, must it not?
24 A. It must be right, yes.
25 Q. Did you see other people before you came across him or
145
1 was he just a lone person in that entire vicinity?
2 A. I think there were other people about that night, but,
3 as I say, I can't remember -- I can't remember who and
4 I wasn't asked at the time. So, you know, I can't
5 remember now. There were definitely other people about,
6 but I couldn't say exactly who they were. Sorry.
7 Q. Are you saying the other people's conduct who were about
8 was not such as to cause you any alarm at all?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So the crowd --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure what "no" means, whether she is
12 agreeing or saying she did not see.
13 MS DINSMORE: What is the answer to that?
14 A. There was nothing else to cause me concern.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
16 MS DINSMORE: So there was nothing to cause you concern at
17 all that evening until you saw a man with some blood on
18 his nose?
19 A. That didn't even concern me at the time, to be honest
20 with you.
21 Q. Did it occur to you how he could have got his face into
22 that condition?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Would that be something you would come across quite
25 a bit?
146
1 A. No. I don't think so.
2 Q. But in any event, when you saw him with the blood, your
3 approach -- and at this stage you are well up
4 West Street, having not seen anything to alarm you at
5 all -- there was nothing about the crowd that alarmed
6 you?
7 A. No, not at the time other than that they were running
8 about.
9 Q. Other than a crowd running about, there was nothing
10 about the crowd that alarmed you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Or could have?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You didn't see any furore in relation to persons on the
15 ground?
16 A. No, definitely not.
17 Q. You see this person with blood on their face. You walk
18 across to them. In one of the documents it stated that
19 you ran your finger over his lip?
20 A. I think I actually gave him a tissue.
21 Q. You think you gave him a tissue.
22 A. Yes. I can't be sure.
23 Q. You may well have run your finger over his lip. You
24 didn't talk to him at all. Is that right?
25 A. I don't think so, no.
147
1 Q. To this day, you don't know who he is?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You see, I have to suggest to you there was very serious
4 behaviour which would cause alarm.
5 A. Yes, I understand that now, yes.
6 Q. And I have to suggest to you that you were at the scene.
7 I am not putting to you that you were involved in any
8 disorder at all. Mr Atkinson is not saying you were
9 involved in any disorder. However, he has clear recall
10 of seeing you at the scene.
11 A. Uh-huh. At the scene. Do you mean up by the church
12 or ...?
13 Q. Well, in the crowd.
14 A. I wasn't in a big crowd that night.
15 Q. Did the crowd come to you perhaps?
16 A. I don't remember. I just remember seeing people down
17 the middle of the town.
18 MS DINSMORE: Okay. Thank you.
19 MR McCOMB: No questions.
20 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Something perhaps I should have asked you
22 about before, but can I perhaps do it now?
23 Can we have a look at page [81058]? This is
24 a statement that Jennifer O'Neill has signed for the
25 Inquiry. We have not called her to give evidence yet.
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1 Do you know where she is?
2 A. I haven't a clue. The last I knew she was in America or
3 Australia or somewhere.
4 Q. Can we have a look at page [81061]? At paragraph 12 she
5 says:
6 "I cannot remember exactly what time the fight
7 started and it is difficult for me to distinguish now
8 between what I actually saw and heard and the details
9 I was told later by other people or heard on the news.
10 However, a man, who I now believe to be Robert Hamill,
11 was standing in the middle of the High Street and he
12 shouted something along the lines of, 'I'm a Fenian.
13 This is my town'. I cannot remember exactly where the
14 man was standing because he was quite far away down the
15 street. I remember someone shouting, 'Fenian bastards'
16 and then a lot of people just ran.
17 "It seemed like a crowd of people came out of
18 nowhere, as they'd been walking up the town and just
19 descended. It was almost as if one minute the street
20 was empty and then there was just a crowd of about 20
21 people in the street. I am unable to say whether the
22 crowd was made up of people who came off the Coach Inn
23 bus or not. I was not close enough to see who was in
24 the crowd and there were other people in the town that
25 night who had not come off the bus. I would have named
149
1 specific people if I had been able to see them."
2 Now, does that help you remember any more about
3 this?
4 A. I am sorry. It doesn't, no.
5 Q. Would that have struck you if you had seen somebody
6 shouting, "I'm a Fenian. This is my town"?
7 A. It probably would have, yes.
8 Q. How does her recollection here of a crowd descending
9 from nowhere strike you now?
10 A. I can't remember what I saw happening like that at all.
11 As I said, I just remember -- maybe I was facing the
12 other direction and I was just turning round and seeing
13 people.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Right. Thank you very much. Unless there is
15 anything else arising from that?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. No. You are free now to go.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Ms Clayton.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, this may be a helpful time to introduce
20 three witness statements that are to be read. Two of
21 those are from the ambulance controllers.
22 Statement of RUTH LEONARD (read)
23 The first is that of Ruth Leonard, which we find at
24 page [80666].
25 It is a statement she signed and is dated
150
1 27th March 2008. If I can pick it up from paragraph 2:
2 "In April 1997, I was the control assistant on duty
3 in the Southern Division Ambulance Control in Craigavon.
4 I worked under the instruction of Susan Morrow at that
5 time, who was the control officer. She was ultimately
6 responsible for the deployment of ambulances. Whilst
7 I could be asked to give out calls if Sue was busy on
8 the radio or with other calls, I would always check with
9 her before doing so. We worked as a team.
10 "On the night of 26-27 April 1997 my shift began at
11 midnight and ended at 0800. It was a busy night. Night
12 duty is invariably busy and a Saturday night is the
13 busiest night duty of the week. Sue and I were
14 the only two people on duty in the control centre and we
15 were solely responsible for covering the six ambulance
16 stations in that area for the duration of the shift.
17 "I received the 999 call in connection with this
18 incident and I despatched an ambulance (call sign 322).
19 To my knowledge, the records show just one emergency
20 call for an ambulance in relation to the incident at
21 Market Street/Thomas Street in Portadown."
22 Perhaps we could split the screen here and just have
23 this on the left-hand side and [08153] on the other.
24 Thank you. [80667]. Thank you:
25 "The receipt of the 999 call is recorded on 'Form
151
1 AS1' containing page numbers 08153 to 08514. There is
2 a section which shows 'Caller's name RUC Portadown'", we
3 see that about two thirds of the way down on page
4 [08153], "and this was taken by myself 'R Leonard' at
5 'time 0149'."
6 We see that towards the right-hand side on page
7 [08153]:
8 "All of the information in Form AS1 is not recorded
9 at the time of the call, but a record was kept for the
10 duration of each shift. At the initial receipt I would
11 record the address of the incident or emergency, the
12 time of receipt, the times of arrival for the crew and
13 departure/arrival at hospital. Clear times would be put
14 in as these events happened, as would any names
15 regarding patients lifted from the emergency. To my
16 knowledge I filled all of this information that night.
17 "There is also a transcript of the ambulance control
18 emergency call tape."
19 Perhaps on the right-hand side screen we could look
20 at [09338]. She says those pages just refer to 0148:
21 "I can confirm this relates to the same call. The
22 request was made on this occasion from RUC Portadown but
23 I do not recall to which officer I spoke. It is quite
24 possible that a name was not given, because they would
25 identify themselves as 'police Portadown' or whichever
152
1 police control room was running the response. To the
2 best of my recollection, all I was told was that there
3 was a fight at the top of Woodhouse Street, Portadown.
4 I was not given any details about the incident at that
5 time or how many people were injured at the scene."
6 One can see on page [09338] thereafter the first few
7 lines:
8 "We require an ambulance in the centre of the town,
9 please.
10 "Right, whereabouts in the centre of town?
11 "I take was going to be the top of
12 Woodhouse Street -- we have a punch up going
13 (inaudible)."
14 There is a repetition at 1.50.10 at the bottom part
15 of that:
16 "There's a fight on in the middle of Portadown at
17 the top of Woodhouse Street. The police are in
18 attendance and need an ambulance."
19 Then if we go back to paragraph 6, which is the
20 final paragraph on 08667, there:
21 "The AS1 shows that a call was given to the crew on
22 the transcript at 01.50. The crew then went to the
23 location at 01.52. I have been shown a copy of an A3
24 ambulance log sheet that we used during that shift
25 containing page 00006."
153
1 Perhaps on the right-hand side we could look at
2 page [00006]. We need I think to look at the 0150. It
3 is the top four lines, if they could be enlarged. Maybe
4 the split in the screen is not a good idea at this
5 stage. No. We can come back to that, if necessary.
6 Going back to the paragraph on page [80667],
7 paragraph 6:
8 "At that time this log was kept as a record of crew
9 going out and crew arrival and of hospital time on
10 emergency calls or doctors' urgent calls for the
11 duration of the shift. I have circled where it says
12 '999 0152' and underneath 'Portadown'. '0152' refers to
13 the time that the crew went mobile on the call to
14 Market Street/Thomas Street. To the left of where
15 I have circled, the log refers to '0139'. This relates
16 to a totally separate call."
17 Then paragraph 7, [80668]:
18 "I can confirm that once I had received the call,
19 I was the officer who dispatched the ambulance. This
20 was possibly because Sue was busy dealing with other
21 situations at that time such as other emergency calls.
22 To be honest, I cannot recall whether the words 'Ruth,
23 dispatch this ambulance' were actually said but the crew
24 were in the location of Craigavon casualty at the time
25 the call came in, so if Sue was tied up on another phone
154
1 call, I would just immediately ring the crew and
2 dispatch them to the scene.
3 "We were guided by the police as to the best way of
4 approaching the incident because of the barrier across
5 the junction of Market Street and Thomas Street. The
6 barriers were the police's domain. If the barriers were
7 all closed, then the ambulance would have to be on the
8 other side of the barrier and the crew would have to
9 walk. But normally in any situation the barrier would
10 be open. The most important thing when an emergency
11 call is taken is to get the crew en route. The crew did
12 ask me, 'How do we get down to it?' The transcript at
13 pages 9338 to 9339 shows that I actually rang the
14 Portadown police barrack and asked them for the best way
15 to approach the scene. I asked the police, 'Is the town
16 open for them to go straight through?' I held on
17 momentarily and then they gave the answer that we needed
18 to come down Edward Street. Since the ambulance was
19 already mobile, the information the police gave was
20 passed to the crew over the radio.
21 "According to the AS1 at page [08153] the ambulance
22 arrived at the scene at 01.58 and left again at 02.02.
23 The AS1 then refers to 'Arr' and below it says '0209'.
24 This records the arrival time at hospital as being
25 02.09. Then 'Clear' and '0210' means that the crew left
155
1 the hospital at 02.10.
2 "On the AS1 the details '4 pts' and '1 uncons,
3 3 walking wounded' appear. To my knowledge, this is my
4 writing on the AS1. '4 pts' means 4 patients, so 4
5 patients in total required attention; of those, '1
6 uncons' means 1 unconscious patient and '3 walking
7 wounded' means three walking patients. That information
8 would have come from the ambulance crew, but the names
9 of patients would not be known until the", overleaf,
10 [80669], "crew were at the hospital clearing at
11 casualty. Casualty would have been informed in advance
12 by me of the number of patients coming in and a brief
13 outline of their condition as noted on the AS1. Page 2
14 of the AS1 at page 8154", perhaps we can show that on
15 the right-hand side, [08154], "shows 'CAH'", and we see
16 that in the second box down, "which refers to Craigavon
17 Area Hospital and the time '2.03'", which we see on the
18 right-hand side about the third box down, "with my
19 initials appearing below.
20 "The first page of the AS1 at page 08153 records the
21 names of 3 patients as 'Rbt Hamill', D and 'Colin Hull'.
22 This information would have been given by the ambulance
23 crew who would usually call in upon completion before
24 they cleared casualty and made themselves available for
25 the next call or returned to base. The names of only
156
1 three patients are given. This possibly could have been
2 because only three names were known at that time. There
3 may not have been any identification on the other
4 patient. I cannot say whether a fourth patient was, in
5 fact, carried by the ambulance. I would not normally
6 receive any information about what treatment the
7 ambulance crew had given to patients. To the best of my
8 knowledge, I was not given any details of the injuries
9 of Robert Hamill or the treatment administered to him in
10 the ambulance.
11 "A second ambulance was requested at 02.02 hours
12 which is recorded on the original AS1 document at
13 page 08154."
14 We see that fourth box down [08154]:
15 "Notes: Reg 2nd veh at 0202 - no."
16 The statement continues at paragraph 12:
17 "Then the AS1 reads 'No'. This means that there is
18 no vehicle available to send and I am not aware of any
19 second ambulance being sent. I have been asked whether
20 I at any point tried to clarify with another member of
21 staff the issue of the second ambulance being
22 dispatched. I cannot remember whether the question ever
23 arose or whether anyone asked me again to dispatch
24 another vehicle. I do not believe so.
25 "I can confirm that the only contact I had with the
157
1 police that night was the original emergency call and
2 the call I made to clarify what way the crew had to
3 approach the scene. I honestly do not know whether
4 I spoke to the same person during each of those calls."
5 That's the material part of that statement.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pausing there, that verifies the arrival
7 and departure times which Mr Morrow gave us?
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, exactly.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: It shows that the police were first in touch
10 about an ambulance at 1.48.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: It does.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It shows that the second ambulance was
13 requested at 2.02 am?
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Correct.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Then there is at page [80984] -- we are going
17 to need this full screen, I think -- this is the first
18 page of a statement by Susan Morrow.
19 Statement of SUSAN MORROW (read)
20 It was signed on 3rd June 2006. This lady
21 essentially confirms what we have just been hearing. If
22 one looks at paragraph 2:
23 "On 26/27 April 1997 I was in charge of the
24 ambulance control room, Craigavon and I was responsible
25 for delegating which ambulance responds to which
158
1 incident. Ruth Leonard is my assistant. I don't recall
2 the night but I have been shown the records of the
3 incident and what follows is based upon those records."
4 She refers there to a copy of the records being
5 produced and shown to her marked SM1. I can tell you,
6 and we can see them if necessary, by way of that SM1
7 assignment, but those are pages [00006], [09338],
8 [08153] and 09908, all of which we have seen. So
9 I don't think it is necessary to go any further in that
10 statement.
11 Then, finally, can I read the statement of
12 Aaron Reaney, which we find at [81586].
13 Statement of AARON REANEY (read)
14 This is quite a useful example where we have drawn
15 the line between calling a witness who may have seen
16 something and merely reading the statement of a witness
17 who may have seen something but we think is unlikely to
18 be of any assistance if we call them.
19 This gentleman signed the statement on 4th December
20 last year. Perhaps I can pick it up at paragraph 5
21 where he says:
22 "On 13th May 1997 I gave a statement to the police
23 investigating the murder of Robert Hamill."
24 That statement is, in fact, at page 09176. We
25 don't need to go to it. He goes on:
159
1 "I remember catching the bus to the Coach."
2 He names some people with whom he went.
3 If we go to paragraph 7, [81587], he says:
4 "The Coach closed at 1.00 am. I said in my witness
5 statement that I left the Coach at about 1.00 or 1.15 to
6 get the bus. I cannot remember whether Richard and
7 Christopher were on the bus with me on the way back to
8 town. I said in my witness statement that 'the bus
9 dropped us off at the bottom of town', but this may be
10 referring to lots of people on the bus being dropped off
11 rather than referring to Richard, Christopher and
12 I specifically."
13 If we go to paragraph 9:
14 "I was one of the first off the bus and I headed
15 straight home once I got off. I wanted to get home
16 before 2 o'clock or thereabouts. I did not feel hungry
17 and so I did not stop at Boss Hoggs. My witness
18 statement says that about 20 to 30 people got off the",
19 overleaf, [81588], "bus, but I did not pay attention to
20 who they were. I just started walking home on my own."
21 If we go to paragraph 12 he says:
22 "I said in my statement to the police that 'I heard
23 noises coming from behind me but I thought it was a boy
24 only carrying on. That was it. I just walked on home',
25 when I walked up through town. The noise I heard was
160
1 shouting and this was normal for a Saturday night in
2 town. It was just people carrying on and I did not
3 think there was any problem. I heard the shouting when
4 I was walking past St Mark's Church. I did not look to
5 see what was going to on because it was none of my
6 business. I cannot say whether there was anyone coming
7 up Thomas Street at that time."
8 The significance of this we say is that there are
9 a number of people who would have got off the bus early,
10 not stopped at Boss Hoggs or anywhere of that nature,
11 got up out of it and may or may not have heard some
12 noise behind them but took no apparent notice of it and
13 about whom we have no other information.
14 Nobody else puts them on the scene. Nobody suggests
15 they might have seen anything or been with anybody else
16 who saw anything. So there is no purpose of calling
17 them in to attempt to disagree with their statements.
18 The value of them may be they give you an idea that the
19 first people up the town who didn't stop missed out on
20 this incident.
21 That concludes the evidence that I would want to
22 introduce today.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 am tomorrow.
24 (3.50 pm)
25 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
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1 I N D E X
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MR ROBERT GLEN STEWART (sworn) ................... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 23
5 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 28
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 35
6 Cross-examination by MR McKILLOP .......... 38
Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 39
7 Questions from REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN ..... 40
RICHARDSON
8
MR NEIL RITCHIE (sworn ) ......................... 41
9 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 41
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 54
10 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 55
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 74
11 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 75
12 MR JOHN MARK CURRIE (sworn) ...................... 77
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 77
13 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 89
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 89
14
MS VICTORIA ELIZABETH CLAYTON .................... 97
15 (sworn)
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 97
16 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 117
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 138
17 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 148
18 Statement of RUTH LEONARD (read) ................. 150
19 Statement of SUSAN MORROW (read) ................. 158
20 Statement of AARON REANEY (read) ................. 159
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163
