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Hearing: 24th February 2009, day 21
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Tuesday, 24th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 21
1 Tuesday, 24th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, sir. I call Wayne Lunt, please.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 MR WAYNE DAVID LUNT (sworn)
6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Lunt.
8 A. Morning.
9 Q. My name is Underwood. I will be asking some questions
10 to start with. I know it catches you out when you
11 listen to a speaker. I will ask questions to start
12 with. Some other people may have some questions after
13 I have finished. All right?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Can I ask you your full name please?
16 A. Wayne David Lunt.
17 Q. We are interested in the events of the early hours of
18 27th April 1997. I think you are aware of that. In
19 particular, what we want to know about from as many
20 witnesses as we can call is how fighting broke out, what
21 the police could have seen, and whether the police got
22 out of the Land Rover quickly enough to do anything to
23 help Mr Hamill, and then, once they did get out, what
24 they saw. So we are calling all the witnesses we can
25 find who were there on the night in the centre of
1
1 Portadown to ask them what they saw.
2 We are not interested in convicting anybody of
3 anything. As you know, in fact, there is immunity
4 against people being prosecuted on the basis of what
5 they say here. What I want to try to do is push your
6 memory as hard as I can for what you would have seen on
7 the night. All right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. First of all, I think before you went into town on
10 27th April, you were with some friends at
11 Michelle Jamieson's house. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I know you have been interviewed at great length about
14 all of this and what we see from the interviews is that
15 you had had quite a lot to drink that night.
16 A. That's correct, yes.
17 Q. Can you give us any idea what sort of state you were in
18 before you went into town?
19 A. I was quite drunk.
20 Q. I just want to get some idea of the practical effect of
21 that. If we have a look at page [06856] on the screen,
22 this is an interview you had with the police in
23 May 1997. They were testing your memory about what you
24 could recall of people wearing amongst the girls you
25 were with. Can I go through it with you to see if it
2
1 helps you get really clear just what you can remember
2 and how hazy it would be because of drink?
3 If you look at the bottom of [06856], the second
4 line from the bottom:
5 Question: "Can you remember what Heidi", that's
6 Heidi Reaney, "was wearing at all?"
7 Answer: "Heidi was wearing -- I know it was a checked [06857]
8 skirt."
9 Question: "Sorry?"
10 Answer: "I think so."
11 Question: "If you are not sure, don't worry about
12 it."
13 Answer: "No, I am not too sure what she was
14 wearing."
15 Question: "I'm just asking to see if you can."
16 Answer: "It probably was a checked skirt."
17 Question: "A checked shirt?"
18 Answer: "Aye, and tights."
19 Question: "What about a jacket?"
20 Answer: "I can't remember what type of jacket she
21 had on."
22 Question: "What about Michelle?"
23 That's Michelle Jamieson:
24 Answer: "Michelle? She was wearing jeans." [06858]
25 Question: "Can you remember what top she had on?"
3
1 Answer: "No."
2 Question: "Okay and then you say you met Lisa",
3 I think that's Lisa Hobson, "and Joanne", Bradley
4 I think:
5 Answer: "Yes."
6 Question: "And can you remember what Lisa had on?"
7 Answer: "Lisa was wearing a pair of black
8 hipsters. I don't know what type of top she had on, but
9 Joanne was wearing jeans."
10 Question: "Coats?"
11 Answer: "Well, they all had coats, but I don't
12 know what type of coats they were."
13 Question: "Colour? Were they like these bright
14 orange ones or --"
15 Answer: "No, black. Black-type colour. They were
16 nearly all black. I don't think Heidi had a coat on.
17 I'm not too sure now whether she had one or not."
18 So in that interview then you were able to give that
19 level of description of the clothing the girls were
20 wearing. Does that help you recall now just what sort
21 of state you were in?
22 A. No, not really, to be truthful.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You were not a fashion editor.
24 A. No.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we have a look at the map that was on the
4
1 screen when we started? We can see on the left-hand
2 side about halfway up there is West Street starting and
3 West Street goes towards the right into Market Street
4 into the junction there.
5 You were coming off from the left-hand side
6 somewhere, were you?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. If we have a look at a night model now, we can scroll
9 this round 360 degrees. Let's just do this to
10 familiarise you with the scene. This is how it was in
11 1997 with the street signs, etc. This is outside
12 Eastwoods. We are just about to look up toward the
13 church and West Street. This model has a Land Rover
14 that you will see here. So if we stop it there, if we
15 just go back to look at the church round to the left,
16 just pausing there, I think you, at various interviews
17 said you got as far as the summer seats --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- which we see, I think, where we see a road sign. The
20 summer seats are behind that, are they?
21 A. I can't really remember where they are. They would have
22 been in round the front of the church.
23 Q. Can you recall, when you got to the summer seats, what
24 was going on? When you got to the church, what was
25 going on?
5
1 A. I know there was a lot of people down in the centre of
2 the town.
3 Q. What about around the church? Were there many people
4 there?
5 A. Not that I can remember.
6 Q. Were you still with Heidi Reaney, Joanne Bradley,
7 Michelle Jamieson?
8 A. I can't remember, to be truthful.
9 Q. Okay. If we look at page [06870], if we take the bottom
10 third of it, you say:
11 Answer: "Aye. We were sitting there. We were
12 sitting there", this is at the summer seats, "like, for
13 about -- say it was about, I don't know, about five,
14 ten minutes we were sitting there, and the crowd
15 starting coming back."
16 So there you are talking about sitting with somebody
17 anyway at the summer seats and the crowd coming back up
18 towards West Street. Does that jog your memory?
19 A. No. I can't remember who was there, who all was there.
20 Q. We got statements from other people who were around the
21 summer seats we think probably around the same time as
22 you were there.
23 Some people say that while they were up by the
24 church and the summer seats area, they saw a fight or at
25 least something breaking out down by the junction and
6
1 people ran down towards it.
2 Do you have any recollection of that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If we look at what Michelle Jamieson has to say and look
5 at page [09146] -- in fact, I can pick this up from the
6 final two lines on this page:
7 "There were loads of people running about and there
8 was shouting and screaming."
9 If we go over the page, [09147], first half:
10 "I heard things like, 'Come on then', 'Come ahead',
11 being shouted. I realised there was a fight going on
12 between Protestants and Catholics. I stayed at the
13 roundabout thing for a couple of minutes and during that
14 time I could hear bottles smashing. I walked on down
15 towards the crowd. I walked down the centre of the
16 street and then crossed over to the right-hand side of
17 the street.
18 "As I was doing so, I heard a woman screaming. She
19 had her hair in a bob. It was brown. She was wearing
20 a black jacket, I think. She was down on her knees over
21 a man who was lying on the street face downwards. He
22 was lying near to Eastwoods shop. She was screaming for
23 help and an ambulance."
24 So there is Michelle Jamieson, who you start off
25 with, seeing that, walking down or going down into the
7
1 town to get a closer look and seeing it very close by.
2 Again, any recollection of that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is this the sort of thing that would have stuck in your
5 mind if you had seen it?
6 A. It's hard to remember anything from 12 years ago.
7 Q. Did you often see fights in the town?
8 A. Not often. They did occur.
9 Q. You can remember incidents, can you, in the town?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If we look at page [06826], this is back in your
12 interview. Just the last line of this, there is
13 a question in the last line:
14 Question: "Now, would it not be silly for you to
15 walk into [06827] something where you don't know", and the
16 policeman goes on, "what you were walking into, in case
17 you got a slap in the mouth?"
18 Answer: "Well, I was just going down to see."
19 Question: "Pardon?"
20 Answer: "That was a risk I was taking, wasn't it?"
21 Solicitor: "But there was police officers on the
22 scene?"
23 Answer: "Aye. There was police officers there.
24 There was Land Rovers and they were all out in the line.
25 I was just going down to see what was happening."
8
1 There in your interview with the police in May 1997
2 you are telling them that you walked down from the
3 summer seats or the church to see what was going on.
4 You saw police lined up.
5 What's your recollection of that?
6 A. I can remember a bit of shouting and that, so I did walk
7 down. I can remember seeing a couple of police. That's
8 about it. It's very vague.
9 Q. You remember that model we looked at had a police
10 Land Rover on it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We can look at it again by all means, but do you
13 remember a Land Rover there?
14 A. I remember a Land Rover. I can't remember whereabouts
15 it was or where it was sitting.
16 Q. Any other police vehicles?
17 A. I think there was a police car that came up beside me.
18 Q. Where were you when that happened?
19 A. Walking down towards the centre of the town.
20 Q. So it came up -- when you say beside you, did it come
21 from behind you then?
22 A. I think it did come from behind me. Again, I am not
23 100% sure.
24 Q. How far had you got? Can you recall?
25 A. About halfway between the church and the junction to
9
1 Thomas Street.
2 Q. In that answer to the police there you are saying you
3 saw police -- you say:
4 "There was Land Rovers and they were all out in the
5 line."
6 Again, doing the best you can for us, police
7 officers on the street at that stage?
8 A. Yes, there was, yes.
9 Q. Now, let's deal with the police car that came up by you.
10 We know, of course, a woman police constable came up,
11 grabbed you and put you in the back of the Land Rover?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that the police car you are talking about?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened? What were you doing, just walking?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have a bottle in your hand?
18 A. I did, yes.
19 Q. Was it empty?
20 A. Not that -- I really can't remember whether it was or
21 not. Well, it wouldn't have been empty because there
22 would have been stuff in it. That's the reason I would
23 have had it in my hand.
24 Q. If we look at page [00235], we can see a photograph
25 of -- this is the road sign I was showing you earlier on
10
1 from the night scene looked at from the other point of
2 view. Here you are looking down from the church end
3 towards the junction. This was taken the morning after
4 the incident with the police crime tape on it. You can
5 see that triangle of vegetation there.
6 If we then look at page [00236], there is a close-up
7 of it. There are a couple of bottles lying there. One
8 of those bottles was picked up afterwards and had your
9 fingerprints on. So we are assuming one of those was
10 the bottle you were carrying.
11 Can you recall what happened to the bottle?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The police constable has said in various statements that
14 when she saw you, you were carrying this bottle by the
15 neck. Would you agree with that?
16 A. I would, yes.
17 Q. In fact, the reason she has given for picking you up is
18 that she thought you were going towards the fight with
19 a bottle, holding it in a way that could have been used
20 as a weapon. Would you accept that?
21 A. No, I wasn't holding it that way.
22 Q. You have got a bottle there. Describe how you were
23 holding it.
24 A. If that was the bottle, like that.
25 Q. Overhand, if you like?
11
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We also know what you were wearing, which included
3 a scarf, which was a Rangers scarf, I think. Is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. Wrapped round your neck, and up?
7 A. It sits about here.
8 Q. Was that just by way of fashion or was there some
9 reason?
10 A. Yes, that's the way I wore my scarves.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: You show, what, across your mouth?
12 A. No, it sits just under the bottom lip on the chin.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, I just want to put to you so you can
14 comment on it what the woman police officer said about
15 this. She took the view you were using the scarf
16 perhaps to hide your identity.
17 A. No, that's not true.
18 Q. Had you been picked up at Drumcree?
19 A. I had been, yes.
20 Q. Were you conscious that your photograph would be on
21 record somewhere?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can we go back to page [06827]? Going back to this
24 passage we have already looked at in the middle of the
25 page, you say:
12
1 "Aye. There was police officers there. There was
2 Land Rovers and they were all out in the line."
3 Now, we know at some point police officers formed
4 a line and they were pushing people back up towards
5 West Street by using that police line.
6 Is that what you are describing there, or are you
7 just saying they were out in a line in some other way?
8 A. No, that's what I'm describing.
9 Q. Again, I just want to give you a chance to deal with
10 something that the woman police constable has said about
11 you.
12 She says on your way down to the crowd at the
13 junction you were running. What do you say about that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. We have looked at that statement of Michelle Jamieson's
16 and we can do it again, if you want. In it she
17 describes hearing bottles smashing. I am not suggesting
18 you smashed a bottle, but do you recall anybody else
19 doing that?
20 A. No, I can't remember hearing anything like that.
21 Q. Again, we have heard and seen various versions in
22 statements of sectarian abuse, fighting, small groups,
23 stand-offs between larger groups.
24 Can you describe, doing the best you can, what you
25 saw?
13
1 A. I really cannot remember.
2 Q. Can you give us any idea of numbers?
3 A. About 20, 30.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. It could have been more.
6 Q. Noise, do you recall that?
7 A. I'm sure there was a lot of shouting. If you get
8 a crowd of people, there's always going to be noise.
9 Q. Now, obviously you were arrested and you were
10 interviewed on the basis of an allegation that was made
11 against you by Mr Prunty. He was saying that he had
12 seen you involved in it, and, when you were let out of
13 the Land Rover, he had a go at you, because he recalled
14 you as being one of those involved.
15 You know about that in general, I think.
16 A. Generally, but ...
17 Q. Let me put to you -- he has already given evidence to
18 us, you see. As a matter of fairness, what I want you
19 to do is have a chance to see what he said so we can get
20 your views on it.
21 What we have is the transcript of the evidence he
22 has given to us. That was given on 21st January 2009.
23 If we could have that up on the screen from page 118.
24 In fact, I think it is 119. If we pick this up at
25 line 13, this is a question I asked him:
14
1 "Question: You see, here what you say in it -- and I
2 bear in mind this is a statement you made to the police
3 and they may have or may not have put words in your
4 mouth -- is:
5 "'By this stage', and this is the stage at which
6 Mr Hamill is being kicked, "'the police had got out ...
7 and were over at the crowd. There was either two
8 policemen and one woman or three policemen and a woman.
9 They ran in to try to stop it. One of the policemen
10 actually pulled me back, and, as he was doing this,
11 I saw another policeman grab hold of one of the fellas
12 in the group that was kicking Robert Hamill.'
13 "What you have told the police there is that the
14 police on the scene got out, intervened and actually
15 pulled one of the fellows in the group that was kicking
16 Mr Hamill out.
17 "Answer: Yes.
18 "Question: Was that accurate then?
19 "Answer: Yes.
20 "Question: Just to move on, this one you go on to
21 talk about one of the fellows in the group that was
22 kicking Robert Hamill:
23 "'He was wearing a Rangers scarf and he was took
24 away and put in the back of the Land Rover. He, like
25 everybody else in the group, was kicking Robert, he was
15
1 definitely kicking him but I can't say where'.
2 "Now, I just want to be as clear as I possibly can
3 about this man with the scarf. Never mind what he
4 looked like or anything. What I am interested in is
5 what he was doing.
6 "You saw him kicking or in the group that was
7 kicking at Mr Hamill. Was he pulled out from that group
8 by the policeman or policewoman, whichever it was, or
9 was he picked up by a policeman or policewoman after he
10 had stopped kicking, or can't you remember?
11 "Answer: I think he was pulled out, but I can't be
12 sure.
13 "Question: Pulled out while he was doing it?
14 "Answer: Yes."
15 So what he is saying there is the person wearing
16 a Rangers scarf is kicking or in the group kicking
17 Mr Hamill. He was pulled out by the police.
18 Now, did you get involved in a group kicking at
19 Mr Hamill?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Were you pulled out by the police from a group?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If we go on here, line 24, I go on to say at line 25
24 there:
25 "Question: To keep a track on what happened to that
16
1 person, this is a man who you say was wearing a Rangers
2 scarf, taken away and put in the back of the Land Rover.
3 There came a point, we know, when he was let out of the
4 Land Rover or a man was let out of the back of the
5 Land Rover.
6 "Ms McCoy told us this morning that you and she at
7 that stage had moved over to the Alliance & Leicester
8 and you saw a policewoman letting somebody out of the
9 back of the Land Rover. Do you recall that?
10 "Answer: Yes.
11 "Question: Were you by the Alliance & Leicester by
12 that point?
13 "Answer: Yes.
14 "Question: What had happened? Had you got
15 Ms McCoy away?
16 "Answer: Yes, I got Maureen away.
17 "Question: By that stage then, had things settled
18 down a bit?
19 "Answer: Yes.
20 "Question: At the Land Rover, were there any other
21 police officers? Do you remember?
22 "Answer: No.
23 "Question: Right. So you had a WPC letting the
24 man out of the back of the Land Rover?
25 "Answer: Yes.
17
1 "Question: Do you think it is the same man you saw
2 being picked up with the Rangers scarf?
3 "Answer: Yes.
4 "Question: Did you see any more than one person
5 with a Rangers scarf that night?"
6 Now did you see anybody else with a scarf like that?
7 A. Not that I can remember.
8 Q. I go on with the questioning:
9 "Question: What did you do when you saw him being
10 let out of the back?
11 "Answer: I went over to the policewoman, who was
12 in the back of the Land Rover, and said, 'What are you
13 letting him go for? Make sure you get his name'.
14 "Question: Could you have gone further than that
15 and said, 'What are you letting him go for? He is one
16 of those that did it'?
17 "Answer: Yes.
18 "Question: Maureen McCoy told us this morning you
19 were very angry by this point. Was that fair?
20 "Answer: Yes.
21 "Question: Angry at the Protestants or angry at
22 the police or just angry?
23 "Answer: Just angry at what had happened.
24 "Question: Some time later in the Inquiry we will
25 hear evidence from a policewoman who says she was the
18
1 officer who let a person out of the back of the
2 Land Rover. I think what she will say is that two men
3 approached her and asked her what she was doing that
4 for, because that was one of the men that had done it.
5 Was there anybody else there apart from you and
6 Maureen McCoy?
7 "Answer: Definitely not.
8 "Question: While the man was in the back of the
9 Land Rover, did he say anything?
10 "Answer: He was just smirking.
11 "Question: Looking back at your statement that you
12 made for the Inquiry ... you say:
13 "'He was inside the Land Rover being aggressive,
14 making fun of what had happened and saying 'Fenian
15 bastards'."
16 "Do you recall that now or do you just recall him
17 smirking?
18 "Answer: Yes. I remember him saying, 'Fenian
19 bastards'.
20 "Question: You go on to say, the final two
21 sentences:
22 "'I was in a bad temper so I swung at him while he
23 was inside the vehicle'."
24 "That's still your memory of it, is it?
25 "Answer: Yes."
19
1 So here we have a person in a Rangers scarf. He has
2 only seen one person in a Rangers scarf pulled out, put
3 in the Land Rover. You went in the Land Rover, didn't
4 you, with a Rangers scarf?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see anybody else in the Land Rover?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When the person with the Rangers scarf is released from
9 the Land Rover, he comes along and has a go at the woman
10 police officer. Was it a woman that let you out?
11 A. I can't remember, because I think there were two police
12 officers in the back. There was a policewoman that
13 arrested me. I am sure she was in the back of the
14 Land Rover.
15 Q. The policewoman also checked on your address, I think.
16 A. Yes, she took my details.
17 Q. When you were getting out of the Land Rover, did
18 anything like this happen?
19 A. Not that I can remember.
20 Q. Were you smirking?
21 A. No. I had just been arrested.
22 Q. I am sorry?
23 A. I had just been arrested.
24 Q. Were you being aggressive?
25 A. No.
20
1 Q. Were you saying things like, "Fenian bastards"?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did anybody have a swing at you?
4 A. Not that I can remember, no.
5 Q. It is the sort of thing that would stick in your mind,
6 isn't it?
7 A. It is 12 years ago.
8 Q. Were you asked whether you would consent to go on
9 an identity parade after you were arrested?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Can you recall anything about the man who had a go at
12 the police officer when you were released?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When you got out, I think you stayed around the area
15 until about 3 o'clock. Is that right?
16 A. I can't remember that.
17 Q. I can help you. If we look at page [06831], at the top
18 there is an allegation made that when the policewoman
19 was taking you to the Land Rover, you had a kick at her.
20 You say at the top:
21 Answer: "Well, if I went to kick her, why didn't
22 she put in a complaint in against me that night? Why
23 didn't she arrest me for assaulting a police officer?
24 She didn't arrest me at all."
25 Policeman: "Well, I mean, the simple answer to that
21
1 was there was an affray. There was a lot of people.
2 There was a fight going on and they hadn't the manpower
3 to deal with you then and there."
4 Answer: "Well, why didn't she come after me when
5 it was all over? I seen her when I was going to the
6 taxi base when I was going to get my taxi. She was
7 taking care of a road accident."
8 Now, because we have had lots of time and lots of
9 documents, we have been able to work out that she was
10 dealing with a road accident at about 3 o'clock. So
11 when you went to get your taxi nearby, that would have
12 been roughly an hour later.
13 Can you help us on what you did afterwards, what you
14 saw?
15 A. I can't remember, but I know I had to walk the long way
16 around the town, because I lived on the other side of
17 town. So instead of going through the centre, I would
18 have had to walk the whole way around.
19 Q. Right. If we look at page [06819], still part of the
20 interview you had with the police, in the second line at
21 the top there they are asking you about what you saw
22 when you got out of the Land Rover, I think:
23 Question: "Did you see anybody lying on the ground?"
24 Answer: "Yes. I seen him lying there when I got
25 out of the Land Rover when I was going home. I have to
22
1 go through the town to get home and the only way I could
2 go was round the long route and I seen him lying there
3 whenever I got out of the Land Rover. That's the only
4 time."
5 You are asked whether you kicked him, that's
6 Mr Hamill, when you did that, and you deny that.
7 Can you help us with what you saw when you got out
8 of the Land Rover?
9 A. No. I can't remember at all.
10 Q. Can you recall, with the aid of this, seeing anybody on
11 the ground?
12 A. I can remember seeing someone lying on the ground, yes.
13 Q. Can you recall what they were wearing?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can you recall where they were --
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- or whether anybody was with them, comforting them or
18 anything like that --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- or treating them?
21 A. No.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: At which stage was that in relation to your
23 getting out of the Land Rover that you saw this man
24 lying on the ground?
25 A. Just after I got out of the Land Rover.
23
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Going back to Michelle Jamieson's statement
2 if we look at [9147], I have already taken you to the
3 first third or so of this where we get to a point where
4 Michelle Jamieson describes a person lying near to
5 Eastwoods shop.
6 Four lines down in this part she describes a woman
7 with her hair in a bob:
8 "She was screaming for help and an ambulance.
9 I kept looking at the man all the time. I walked over
10 to the woman and the man. The woman said, 'There's no
11 point in it', to me. I knelt down and listened to his
12 breathing. He sounded as if he couldn't get any air."
13 Of course, you may have been in the Land Rover at
14 the time, but can you help us whether you saw
15 Michelle Jamieson anywhere round there?
16 A. No, I can't remember that.
17 Q. We can look at it, if you like, but what we have is
18 a radio log from the police Land Rover to the base,
19 which shows the conversation that the woman police
20 officer had with base about confirming your address.
21 That shows that you were in the Land Rover between 1.55
22 that night and 2.02. We know that the ambulance arrived
23 at 1.58 and left at 2.02. We know that the ambulance
24 had come and gone while you were in the Land Rover.
25 Did you get any impression of the ambulance? Did
24
1 you see blue flashing lights, hear sirens?
2 A. Not that I can remember, no.
3 Q. Then, if we can look at page [06843], please, you are
4 being asked here in your interview with the police about
5 what you did when you got out of the Land Rover?
6 I have already asked you, of course, what you were
7 doing in it. Here you are being pressed about what
8 might have happened directly afterwards. You start at
9 the top by saying:
10 Answer: "I know, but I didn't shout anything."
11 Question: "You didn't?"
12 Answer: "No. There was a fella standing behind
13 the Land Rover near Woodhouse Street. He shouted
14 something at me and I turned round, and the next thing
15 there was six cops pushing me into the shutter."
16 Question: "What did he shout at you? Do you know?"
17 Answer: "I don't know what he shouted at me."
18 I just turned round. Probably something. I don't know,
19 like, what he was trying to say."
20 Solicitor: "Sorry, six policemen did what?"
21 Answer: "Pushed me into a shutter."
22 Question: "What shutter?"
23 Answer: "It was -- as you are going up -- as
24 you're coming down, it was on the right-hand side, so it
25 would have been -- if you are coming down here or
25
1 something."
2 Question: "So you actually crossed from the
3 left-hand side of the street after you were --"
4 Answer: "Yes, after the Land Rover, I went over
5 that way and walked up.
6 Solicitor: Is that near Dorothy Perkins?"
7 Answer: "Yes, it would be, aye."
8 Question: "I have a photograph of the area.
9 Solicitor: So the six policemen pushed you into
10 that shutter?"
11 Answer: "Yes."
12 Now, can you recall this incident?
13 A. I can't recall it, no.
14 Q. What were you talking about there in terms of crossing
15 the road? Was this from the Woodhouse Street side of
16 the junction across to the Thomas Street side?
17 A. Yes, it would have been, yes.
18 Q. Can you recall where Dorothy Perkins was? Was that on
19 the Thomas Street side?
20 A. I think it was on the Thomas Street side, yes.
21 Q. There you are obviously describing something to do with
22 six policemen who were either protecting you or stopping
23 you from doing something. Can you help us on that at
24 all?
25 A. I can't remember.
26
1 Q. Then if we go to [09103], this is the original police
2 statement of Mr Prunty. About just over halfway down
3 that, if we look here, about four lines, five
4 lines down:
5 "They were still shouting 'Fenian bastards', things
6 like that. After five or ten minutes I saw the fella
7 with the Rangers scarf being let out of the back of the
8 Land Rover. He went back into the crowd shouting, 'Up
9 the UV', which I knew to be the UVF."
10 Is that the sort of thing you shouted in those days?
11 A. I can't remember shouting that.
12 Q. Were you a UVF supporter?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you recall other people shouting that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was there still a crowd there to go into when you got
17 out of the Land Rover?
18 A. I can't remember. I know there was a few people there,
19 yes. I know the police were still there trying to
20 disperse the crowd, trying to get them back up the town.
21 Q. Can we go back to the map? We can focus in, I think, on
22 the junction. We have the Land Rover really at the
23 mouth of Woodhouse Street. You have just told us that,
24 when you were let out of it, you crossed over to the
25 Thomas Street side. Where would you have had to go to
27
1 get home walking the long way round?
2 A. I would have had to have went back up towards
3 St Mark's Church.
4 Q. Uh-huh.
5 A. There is a street on the left-hand side. I would have
6 walked down that way.
7 Q. Is that William Street or further down?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I see. So were there people up there, I mean, not in
10 William Street, but were there people further along the
11 High Street/Market Street?
12 A. Yes, there would have been in around the front of the
13 church and that. There would have still been people
14 there, yes.
15 Q. You told us that when you arrived in the first place,
16 police were out in a line and were moving people back up
17 towards Market Street.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We obviously know you were in the back of a Land Rover
20 for quite some minutes. Had things changed very much by
21 the time you got out?
22 A. I really can't remember.
23 Q. Mr Lunt, you know how important this is, of course. We
24 are investigating in great detail the actions of the
25 police on the night --
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- and whether they did everything they could. We are
3 trying to piece together as best we can.
4 Is there anything you can recall that you think
5 might help us that I haven't asked you about?
6 A. No.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. You will be
8 asked some more questions.
9 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
10 MR FERGUSON: Mr Lunt, you said you had been picked up at
11 Drumcree.
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. How long prior to the end of April had you been picked
14 up at Drumcree?
15 A. I can't remember that at all. I couldn't say exactly
16 when.
17 Q. Well, can you say what you were doing when you were
18 picked up at Drumcree?
19 A. Probably getting involved in what was happening.
20 Q. In what way were you getting involved?
21 A. It just depends. I really can't remember what I was
22 doing at that time.
23 Q. Can you not?
24 A. No.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it at the time of the Drumcree march?
29
1 A. Yes, it would have been, yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's about 12th July, isn't it?
3 MR FERGUSON: It should have been, yes. I am not going to
4 get into the minutiae of Drumcree -- the Tribunal has
5 enough to trouble themselves with -- basically, the
6 problem was that the Protestant community, or
7 a number thereof, were prevented from marching on
8 Drumcree. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. You were there protesting against that?
11 A. Yes, I would have been.
12 Q. Obviously there were army people present, were there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But also members of the RUC?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you hostile to the RUC because of what they were
17 preventing you doing at Drumcree?
18 A. I could have well been. I can't remember.
19 Q. Pardon?
20 A. I could have well been, but I can't remember.
21 Q. Are you serious about that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You can't remember?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you among a number of Protestants who were
30
1 demonstrating at Drumcree, attempting to cause trouble
2 at Drumcree?
3 A. I can't remember how many people were there. There were
4 thousands of people.
5 Q. Yes. But whatever happened at Drumcree, without going
6 into the detail, did that leave an animosity, a feeling
7 of hatred on the part of the Protestant community, or
8 a large part of it, towards the RUC?
9 A. I can't speak for everyone.
10 Q. Just speak for yourself then.
11 A. No, not really.
12 Q. You didn't mind?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You didn't resent the fact that the RUC had prevented
15 you from exercising what you would have regarded as your
16 right to march in that area?
17 A. At the time probably. Again, I can't remember.
18 Q. But probably at the time that would have been your frame
19 of mind?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did that frame of mind then continue up until the night
22 of the incident about which we are now speaking?
23 A. No.
24 Q. It didn't? Was there resentment on the part of a large
25 proportion of the Protestant community towards the RUC
31
1 as a result of Drumcree?
2 A. Not on my part, no.
3 Q. Not on your part?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn't mind that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You didn't resent the fact that they were standing in
8 your way?
9 A. Again, at the time, probably, but I can't remember.
10 MR FERGUSON: Very well.
11 MR McGRORY: If you please, sir, I have an application
12 I would like to make. I think the nature of the
13 application would require the Tribunal to sit in
14 chambers or in camera, so to speak.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: We will just rise while things are set up.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I think that takes about fifteen minutes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
18 (11.12 am)
19 (In camera proceedings)
20 (1.30 pm)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Your examination-in-chief had finished,
22 I think.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, it has.
24 MR FERGUSON: I have finished.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
32
1 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
2 MR ADAIR: I have a few questions, Mr Lunt, in relation to
3 what you were wearing.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me for interrupting you.
5 I should have said I didn't have a closed session to
6 announce our decision in view of what the decision was,
7 but it seems to us appropriate to allow the application.
8 It seems to us to be relevant to an issue between the
9 witness and Mr Prunty.
10 It is not appropriate to say more at this stage,
11 because we have not yet come to the stage of deciding
12 where the truth lies about anything.
13 MR ADAIR: I understand. I think Mr McGrory will be dealing
14 with that, as he raised the issue, sir.
15 Mr Lunt, you were wearing amongst other things the
16 scarf. I want to know what way you had the scarf. You
17 describe in your Inquiry statement that you had the
18 scarf rolled up over your mouth. Is that right?
19 A. Yes, the bottom lip here.
20 Q. About your bottom lip?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you also wearing a hat?
23 A. I was, yes.
24 Q. Was that a baseball-type hat, a peaked hat?
25 A. It was a peaked hat.
33
1 THE CHAIRMAN: With the peak at the front?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR ADAIR: You were not wearing it back to front with the
4 peak out the back?
5 A. (Witness shakes head).
6 Q. Then you had some white clothing on. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So what one could see of your face was your forehead,
9 your eyes and your nose and the top part of your mouth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At that time you had black hair, as we have seen from
12 the picture. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It looked to be relatively short. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, it would have been.
16 Q. In the picture we saw -- I don't know whether it is
17 possible to -- I can't remember the numbers. Is it
18 possible in the meantime to bring it up? You seemed to
19 have something of a slight growth above your lip. Was
20 that just at the time of the photograph or is that the
21 way you normally wear it?
22 A. That would have -- no, I normally would have had that,
23 yes.
24 Q. You normally had some growth above your lip?
25 A. Yes, yes.
34
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have the photographs available?
2 I think you would like them up, wouldn't you, Mr Adair?
3 75201 Yes, here we are.
4 MR ADAIR: We can see that this is taken on 11th May of
5 1997, it would appear from the date on the photograph.
6 So that's pretty much the way you looked --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- at the end of April, the night of this incident?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know Mr Forbes?
11 A. Not personally, no.
12 Q. Did you know him at the time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. We can't see the back of your head there. Was your hair
15 short at the back or long at the back?
16 A. Short.
17 Q. So would you have been able to see any of your hair at
18 the back if you were wearing a cap?
19 A. Well, the cap would have came to about the middle of the
20 head. So whatever was underneath that, yes.
21 Q. Now, I just want to ask you briefly about what you saw
22 that night in the town centre.
23 Do I understand that you saw a crowd and then went
24 down towards it?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
35
1 Q. Was there something that drew you to the crowd? Was
2 there something they were doing or saying or -- what was
3 happening that drew you down to them?
4 A. Just lots of shouting and stuff.
5 Q. Shouting and stuff. Did you run down towards the crowd?
6 A. No, not that I can remember.
7 Q. Pardon?
8 A. Not that I can remember, no.
9 Q. I suggest to you that you were running down towards the
10 crowd and that there will be evidence heard by the
11 Tribunal from the lady police officer who ultimately
12 arrested you that you were running down towards the
13 crowd. Might that be right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I suggest to you that you were holding the bottle upside
16 down that you had with you when you were running down
17 towards the crowd.
18 What I am reading into that, from her statement --
19 we will hear from her in due course -- is that that was
20 in an aggressive way.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you -- just stopping there for
23 a second, you were asked a couple of times by my learned
24 friend Mr Underwood about what police you saw. At one
25 stage you described seeing a couple of police.
36
1 Do you remember saying that? Do you remember saying
2 that to the Inquiry this morning?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was it at the point that you were running down to the
5 crowd that you saw the police?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: That's two questions in one.
7 MR ADAIR: When did you see the couple of police?
8 A. When I was walking down to the crowd.
9 Q. When you were walking down to the crowd?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were the police amongst the crowd?
12 A. I really can't remember what position they were in, no.
13 Q. At that stage, had the fighting started?
14 A. I really can't say.
15 Q. Pardon?
16 A. I can't say. I can't remember.
17 Q. Had you made your way down towards the crowd immediately
18 on hearing the shouting and realising there was
19 something happening?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. You then described again this morning a stage of seeing
22 a line of policemen. Do you remember telling us about
23 that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who were pushing the crowd back, were they?
37
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Was that after the fighting had occurred?
3 A. I presume so. I really can't remember.
4 Q. You do agree that you ran away when the lady police
5 officer tried to stop you --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- as you were making your way down to the crowd?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Why was that?
10 A. Because I didn't want to be arrested.
11 Q. Why would you be arrested?
12 A. I'm sure I really don't know. There was a lot of stuff
13 going on in town at that time.
14 Q. Why would you be arrested if you were simply walking
15 down to the crowd?
16 A. Well, she jumped out and came towards me.
17 Q. So you were, according to you, doing nothing in your
18 movement or your actions to --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- cause any police person to be apprehensive about you?
21 A. No, apart from having the clothes I was wearing and the
22 bottle in my hand.
23 Q. You do agree then, I take it, that later on you were
24 again arrested by this same police officer --
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
38
1 Q. -- and taken to the Land Rover?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. She will say that you were kicking out with your feet at
4 her. You don't remember whether you did that or not?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Are you not able to help this Inquiry at all as to the
7 circumstances of the assault upon Mr Hamill or D?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you simply not see anything?
10 A. I didn't see anything at all.
11 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
12 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, I have some questions.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
15 MR McGRORY: Mr Lunt, I am going to ask you some questions
16 on behalf of the Hamill family. I think you are aware
17 of that from the previous application.
18 Let me just clarify, first of all, what we are
19 agreed upon. We are agreed that you had a lot of drink
20 taken that night. Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Is it fair to say you had already consumed a bottle of
23 Buckfast wine and were on your second?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. In fact, earlier in the evening, having finished your
39
1 first bottle of Buckfast, you had sent out in a taxi for
2 a second bottle. Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That was, of course, before you left the premises that
5 you were in before going down into town. Isn't that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So it would be reasonable to assume that you had
9 a reasonable amount of the second bottle consumed by the
10 time these events happened?
11 A. I can't say how much I had out of the second bottle.
12 I can't remember whether it was a bit or a lot.
13 Q. Somebody made an observation that you might have been
14 sick on the street. Do you remember that?
15 A. I can't remember it, no.
16 Q. But at any event, you are happy to say you had a fair
17 amount of drink taken?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The other issue on which we are agreed is that you were
20 wearing a Rangers scarf.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You know of nobody else who was wearing a Rangers scarf?
23 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
24 Q. Do you accept you were carrying the bottle of Buckfast,
25 that's the second bottle?
40
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Indeed, a bottle was recovered later and your
3 fingerprint was found on it and you accepted to the
4 police that was most likely the bottle you were
5 carrying. Isn't that right?
6 A. I didn't know anything about the fingerprints on the
7 bottle until I received the paperwork from the Inquiry.
8 Q. Do you accept that must have been the bottle you were
9 carrying?
10 A. Well, if my fingerprints was on the bottle, obviously,
11 yes.
12 Q. Unless, of course, you lifted another bottle.
13 A. No.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know about where the prints were on
15 the bottle?
16 MR McGRORY: I am afraid we don't seem to have that
17 information. I did look for information like that,
18 Mr Chairman, when I was looking through the papers, but
19 it is something we can raise, perhaps, with the Inquiry.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: We will be hearing from the forensic officer
21 who found the prints. He may be able to help us.
22 I don't think on the material we have we can take it any
23 further.
24 MR McGRORY: Of course, you accept that you ran away from
25 Constable A. Isn't that correct?
41
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Now, the reason you have given for running
3 away from Constable A, Mr Lunt, is that you were afraid
4 of being arrested.
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. You have said I think in your Inquiry statement that you
7 had already been in trouble in the past, not for
8 fighting, but after Drumcree. Isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Now, Mr Ferguson, before lunch, asked you some questions
11 about the circumstances in which you were arrested after
12 Drumcree. Do you remember those questions?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You weren't able to tell us very much. I will just read
15 the exchange to you. If anyone else wishes to locate
16 it, it is on page 28 of today's evidence at line 24:
17 Mr Ferguson said:
18 "Question: Mr Lunt, you said you had been picked up
19 at Drumcree.
20 "Answer: Yes, that's correct.
21 "Question: How long prior to the end of April had
22 you been picked up at Drumcree?
23 "Answer: I can't remember that at all. I couldn't
24 say exactly when."
25 Do you remember giving that answer this morning?
42
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The next question was:
3 "Question: Well, can you say what you were doing
4 when you were picked up at Drumcree?
5 "Answer: Probably getting involved in what was
6 happening."
7 Do you remember that answer?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were then asked:
10 "Question: In what way were you getting involved?
11 "Answer: It just depends. I really can't remember
12 what I was doing at that time."
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Is that still your memory?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could I have page 3 on the screen, please? Now, are you
17 seriously telling this Inquiry, Mr Lunt, that you had no
18 memory as to what sort of trouble you had been in at
19 Drumcree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. No idea?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You didn't tell this Inquiry, either at interview or
24 today that, in fact, you were convicted of an offence
25 arising out of an incident at Drumcree, did you?
43
1 A. No, it wasn't brought up. I didn't need to delve into
2 my past.
3 Q. Well, when you spoke to the Inquiry a couple of years
4 ago, you gave a fairly similar answer. Isn't that
5 correct?
6 A. I can't remember what answer I gave, no.
7 Q. Mr Ferguson asked you, "How long before April 1997 were
8 you in trouble at Drumcree?" and you said you couldn't
9 remember.
10 There are two entries on this. This is a criminal
11 record on the screen, your criminal record. Do you
12 understand?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The first entry is a conviction arising out of
15 an incident on 10th July 1995. Do you observe that?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. You were convicted on 10th April 1996 of the offence of
18 riotous behaviour. Do you remember that?
19 A. Well, I can't remember. Obviously if it is there on the
20 screen, yes, I have been convicted for it, but I can't
21 remember, no.
22 Q. Are you suggesting to this Inquiry that when you were
23 asked about why you were running away from Constable A,
24 are you seriously suggesting it was only some vague sort
25 of thing about Drumcree?
44
1 A. No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying I didn't
2 want to be arrested.
3 Q. But you knew very well you had a conviction at this
4 stage for riotous behaviour?
5 A. At that stage probably, but it probably didn't come into
6 my mind. I really can't remember what I was thinking at
7 that time.
8 Q. When Mr Ferguson asked you how long before, you know
9 very well it was a year and a half before. Isn't that
10 correct?
11 A. It must have been, yes. It's there.
12 Q. But my question --
13 A. I didn't know at that time, no.
14 Q. -- is: you knew very well that in the Drumcree, not the
15 previous Drumcree, but the one before that, you got
16 a conviction in Craigavon Juvenile Court for riotous
17 behaviour?
18 A. At the time, no, it didn't come into my head, no.
19 Q. It is not something you would forget, is it?
20 A. Well, obviously I have forgotten about it now. It was
21 a long time ago.
22 Q. It was your first criminal conviction by the looks of
23 it. Is that correct?
24 A. It must have been, yes.
25 Q. To be brought before a Juvenile Court would be a fairly
45
1 memorable thing. Would you not agree?
2 A. Not if -- it is not something I would be thinking about
3 on a daily basis.
4 Q. You didn't say to the Inquiry or Mr Ferguson, "There is
5 a reason why I can't go into any detail there", did you?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. You didn't put forward that the reason for not
8 disclosing your conviction for riotous behaviour, that
9 that was not something you had to tell about, did you?
10 A. I didn't think of it.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: That supposes a certain degree of
12 sophistication about proceedings, doesn't it?
13 MR McGRORY: Pardon, sir?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it presupposes a certain
15 sophistication of his knowledge about proceedings;
16 knowing that he need not answer.
17 MR McGRORY: Well, that's the answer he gave to me when
18 I suggested he was not truthful.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know. Yes.
20 MR McGRORY: So I am suggesting so you that you were simply
21 holding back. Isn't that correct?
22 A. No, it is not. I wasn't holding back.
23 Q. Because, in fact, I am going to suggest to you that the
24 reason why you ran away from Constable A is not that you
25 had some vague notion that you had been in trouble
46
1 before, you knew very well you had a previous conviction
2 for riotous behaviour. Isn't that correct?
3 A. No, it is not.
4 Q. You also knew that what Constable A had seen you do --
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I wonder if I could ask my learned friend to
6 bear in mind the redaction policy from time to time.
7 MR McGRORY: I seem to have a mental block about that one.
8 I am so sorry, sir.
9 You also knew that what Constable A had seen you do
10 could lead to another conviction for riotous behaviour.
11 Isn't that correct?
12 A. No. I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
13 Q. There is no reason why you would have run away other
14 than that. Isn't that correct?
15 A. No. The reason I ran away is because I didn't want to
16 be arrested.
17 Q. I suggest to you Constable A did not run after you and
18 arrest you because you had previously been in trouble.
19 A. No.
20 Q. That wouldn't be a good enough reason for a police
21 constable to go after you, sure it wouldn't?
22 A. It could have well been. I don't know what she was
23 thinking or what was happening.
24 Basically, I did not run away because of my previous
25 convictions. They didn't even occur to me at that time.
47
1 Q. But that's the reason you have given this Inquiry, that
2 you thought that because you had been in trouble at
3 Drumcree, you needed to get offside. Isn't that
4 correct?
5 A. No, I didn't want to be arrested at that time, at that
6 night.
7 Q. But if you weren't doing anything wrong, why would she
8 arrest you?
9 A. Why did she come running towards me in the first place?
10 Q. That's the question. What I am suggesting to you is she
11 came running towards you because you were running into
12 the crowd with a bottle turned upside down --
13 A. No.
14 Q. -- in a threatening manner.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, Mr Ferguson also asked you a few questions just
17 about your general attitude to the police arising out of
18 your concerns about Drumcree. Do you remember those
19 questions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do we take it you were protesting at Drumcree for
22 a reason?
23 A. Yes. At the time, yes.
24 Q. And that the reason you were protesting at Drumcree is
25 you, like many people, were upset that the march wasn't
48
1 being allowed through?
2 A. That's correct, yes.
3 Q. You regard it as the right of the Orange Order to march
4 through Drumcree?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. And that the Catholic population of Garvaghy Road do not
7 have a right to object to the march going through
8 Drumcree?
9 A. Not that they don't have a right to object. Everybody
10 has a right to object.
11 Q. Yes, but that their objections should not have been
12 sustained or upheld. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you would have a problem with the fact that if the
15 Catholics demanded that the march be stopped, that that
16 was an unwelcome development?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. So do you have a difficulty with Catholics generally,
19 Mr Lunt?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could I have page [72045], please, on the screen? The
22 top half of the page, if that could be highlighted.
23 Now, this is difficult to read, this document,
24 because it is handwritten, Mr Lunt, but it is a record
25 of an arrest on 6th March 1997.
49
1 Do you remember being arrested on 6th March 1997?
2 A. No.
3 Q. That is only about six or seven weeks prior to this
4 incident. Isn't that correct?
5 A. It would have been, yes.
6 Q. You have no memory of that whatsoever?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, this is the police record of why you were
9 arrested. It says:
10 "Circumstances of arrest".
11 At the bottom half of this half of the page. Do you
12 see that:
13 "Details of the circumstances and grounds for the
14 arrest must be included together with the name of the
15 officer supplying the information."
16 Can you see that bit?
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. Now I suggest to you what this says is:
19 "Singing songs - shouting about Bobby Sands - singing
20 sectarian songs."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes. I can't read it. I can't understand the writing,
23 but ...
24 Q. Do you accept that's what it says --
25 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
50
1 Q. -- that, six or seven weeks before this incident, you
2 were arrested for singing sectarian songs? Do you
3 remember that now?
4 A. No, I don't remember it at all.
5 Q. You have no memory of that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you saying that that wasn't uppermost in your mind
8 when Constable A came after you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Because I am suggesting to you that you were engaging in
11 similar behaviour and that's why Constable A came
12 after you.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Sorry. That's why Constable A came after you.
15 A. No.
16 Q. You don't accept that at all?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could I have page 3 back on the screen, please? You
19 see, on 24th October 1997, a few months after this
20 incident, you were convicted again. Do you remember
21 that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were convicted of disorderly behaviour. Do you
24 remember that? That's the second entry, the lower part
25 of the page?
51
1 A. Yes, I'm reading it, but I can't remember it.
2 Q. Are you saying you have no memory of this conviction
3 whatsoever?
4 A. Not at that time, no, no.
5 Q. You were convicted of assault on police. You have no
6 memory of that?
7 A. No, I can't remember the incident at all.
8 Q. Can I have page [72104] on the screen, please? The top
9 half of the page, please, would be helpful.
10 This is a record, Mr Lunt, of your bail conditions
11 when you were released on bail on 6th March 1997, some
12 six or seven weeks before this incident.
13 Do you remember being released on bail only six
14 weeks before the night of 27th April?
15 A. No.
16 Q. No memory at all?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know what being released on bail means by the
19 police?
20 A. If you are released on bail, obviously if you are seen
21 doing any trouble, you can be arrested.
22 Q. That's correct.
23 A. You are bailed basically to appear until the date you
24 appear.
25 Q. Do you see the signature at the bottom of that page?
52
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that your signature?
3 A. It is, yes.
4 Q. You see you were bailed on the sum of the surety of
5 £200?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That would have been a considerable sum at that time to
8 you, wouldn't it?
9 A. It would have, yes.
10 Q. Now, are you seriously suggesting that when Constable A
11 leapt out of the car and approached you, that you didn't
12 have that very much in your mind?
13 A. No, it didn't even occur to me.
14 Q. It didn't even occur to you?
15 A. Not that I can remember, but it definitely did not occur
16 to me about that.
17 Q. You didn't think, "Oh, my goodness. I am going to be
18 arrested again"?
19 A. To be truthful, I didn't even know -- forgot clean all
20 about that I was on bail until you brought it up today.
21 Q. You clean forgot about it?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have known at that time that if you
24 were arrested for committing some other offence while on
25 bail, you might lose your liberty?
53
1 A. No. I wasn't aware of that at that time.
2 MR McGRORY: Now, you were wearing a baseball cap and
3 a scarf. Isn't that correct?
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us anything about the circumstances then of
6 your arrest for the Drumcree incident in 1995?
7 A. I really can't remember.
8 Q. Have you no memory of how that conviction was brought
9 about?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it on the evidence of a police officer of what you
12 were doing?
13 A. I really can't remember.
14 Q. Was it on video-taped evidence of what you were doing?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. Do you accept that insofar as the incident on 6th March,
17 a few weeks earlier, was concerned, there would have
18 been evidence from a police officer that you were
19 singing sectarian songs?
20 A. I can't remember that either.
21 Q. That somebody had identified you as doing that?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. In fact, you were arrested on the spot.
24 A. I really can't remember.
25 Q. Would it have occurred to you, Mr Lunt, that one way of
54
1 avoiding re-arrest is to make sure nobody could
2 recognise you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. That wouldn't have occurred to you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. A baseball cap and scarf around the bottom of your face
7 would prevent anybody from recognising you, wouldn't it?
8 A. No, I always wore my scarf like that.
9 Q. You always wore your scarf?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Everywhere you went?
12 A. Not every day, but when I did wear my scarf, that's the
13 way I wore it.
14 Q. You wore it up around your face?
15 A. No, not around my face. Around the bottom -- that was
16 the chin to about to here.
17 Q. Are you sure it wasn't a bit further up?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you agree that if someone is wearing a baseball cap
20 and scarf, even only as high as their lower lip, that it
21 would make it difficult to identify them?
22 A. Well, that's not what was going through my mind when
23 I was putting it on.
24 Q. Are you quite sure about that?
25 A. I am 100% positive.
55
1 Q. It would be a handy disguise for a rioter, wouldn't it?
2 A. Well, I wasn't going out for a riot that night, was I?
3 Q. You may not have been, but if you'd had your scarf
4 handy, I am suggesting to you that pulling it up a bit
5 would have been a good way of disguising yourself.
6 A. It obviously would be, but that isn't the case and that
7 isn't the way I was wearing it.
8 Q. But certainly your scarf was high enough up above your
9 jacket or coat or whatever else you were wearing to be
10 clearly visible. Isn't that correct?
11 A. The top I was wearing, I think it came into a V and --
12 like that.
13 Q. So somebody wearing a scarf in the manner in which you
14 were wearing it for whatever reason, that would have
15 been a good way of identifying somebody?
16 A. Sorry?
17 Q. Do you agree your scarf was recognisable?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It was clear to see?
20 A. Yes, it was clear to see, yes.
21 Q. Now, you have already heard about what Mr Prunty said.
22 Isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr Prunty, I am going to suggest to you, has been very
25 consistent in terms of what he has said about the man
56
1 wearing the Rangers scarf. Mr Prunty has said from the
2 very beginning that a man wearing the Rangers scarf was
3 in the crowd that was kicking at Robert Hamill.
4 A. That's not true.
5 Q. Are you suggesting that Mr Prunty saw nobody wearing
6 a Rangers scarf?
7 A. No, he could have well seen me wearing the Rangers
8 scarf, but I wasn't in the crowd and I certainly wasn't
9 kicking Robert Hamill.
10 Q. You see, the difficulty is, Mr Lunt, that we have no
11 description of anybody else wearing a Rangers scarf.
12 Do you accept that?
13 A. Yes, I accept that, yes.
14 Q. In any form, let alone one raised up above their jacket.
15 Do you accept that?
16 A. Yes, I accept that.
17 Q. What Mr Prunty has said to the police initially at the
18 trial of Marc Hobson and to this Inquiry consistently is
19 that a man wearing a Rangers scarf was in the crowd
20 kicking at Robert Hamill.
21 A. It is not true.
22 Q. I suggest that that was you.
23 A. No. I was not in the crowd.
24 Q. What Mr Prunty has said is that somebody pulled this man
25 away. He thinks a policeman. I am suggesting to you
57
1 that that probably happened before Constable A arrived
2 on the scene.
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that, having been removed from the crowd around
5 Robert Hamill, you were coming back with a bottle.
6 Isn't that correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were going to strike somebody or throw it?
9 A. No, that's not true.
10 Q. That's why you ran away from Constable A.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Not for any other reason.
13 A. No. It's not.
14 Q. And that, in fact, you are lying to this Inquiry today.
15 A. No, I'm not lying.
16 MR McGRORY: No further questions.
17 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
18 MS DINSMORE: Do you recall the female police officer
19 placing you in the police Land Rover?
20 A. I can't really remember it, no.
21 Q. Can you recall was she accompanied by another police
22 officer?
23 A. I am not 100%, but I think there were two police
24 officers, yes.
25 Q. Can you help us as to whether they were both policewomen
58
1 or one was a policewoman and one was a policeman?
2 A. I think one was a policeman.
3 Q. Now, in relation to the police officer when you were in
4 the police Land Rover, who was it took your details and
5 questioned you?
6 A. I really can't say who it was, but I think it was
7 a policewoman took my details.
8 Q. Can you just recap for us what is your recall about what
9 the police were doing at the material time when you were
10 present?
11 A. I can't remember. I am near enough sure they were
12 pushing people back up the town.
13 Q. Immediately prior to your arrest, was that the position
14 also?
15 A. Yes, I think it was, yes.
16 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
17 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Only one matter. I entirely forgot to ask
19 you about the draft witness statement. Perhaps we could
20 deal with that now.
21 If we could look at page [80703], this is a draft
22 that runs for 11 pages. We have heard a number of times
23 that you were interviewed by the Inquiry. That's
24 correct, is it?
25 A. Yes.
59
1 Q. What this is is a draft compiled for you arising out of
2 the interview. This was sent to you by -- rather, sent
3 to your solicitors to pass on to you by post, I think
4 last year.
5 Did you receive this?
6 A. No, I didn't receive it, but I was advised -- I was
7 advised of it, yes.
8 Q. Have you seen it recently?
9 A. Yes, I have, yes.
10 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it?
11 A. I have, yes.
12 Q. Is it accurate?
13 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
14 Q. Why didn't you sign it?
15 A. I was advised not to.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much.
17 Unless there is anything arising?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Thank you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Lunt.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Anne Bowles, please.
22 MS ANNE MURIEL BOWLES (sworn)
23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Ms Bowles. My name is
25 Underwood. I will be asking some questions on behalf of
60
1 the Inquiry. Should I be calling you Ms Bowles or
2 Mrs Smyth now?
3 A. It doesn't matter.
4 Q. Can you tell us your full names, please?
5 A. It is Anne Smyth, Anne Muriel Smyth.
6 Q. I think you understand what we are concerned with here
7 is the events of the early hours of 27th April 1997 in
8 the middle of Portadown.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want to ask you, first of all, whether you can
11 identify your witness statement, which we find at
12 page [80083]. If we just scroll through fairly briefly
13 the three pages, is that your statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 How good is your memory of the night of
19 27th April 1997?
20 A. I would say it's quite vague.
21 Q. Okay. Can I try to refresh it by taking you to a couple
22 of documents that are nearer the time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. First of all, if we look at page [07776], this is a note
25 of an interview with you by a police officer on
61
1 10th May 1997:
2 "Spoke with Anne Bowles, 19 years, who states that
3 she, her sister Alison and a girl (blank) purchased some
4 food from Boss Hogg's and sat on the step of the
5 Ulster Bank to eat their food and to wait for the
6 arrival of the Portadown bus from Banbridge. After the
7 bus had arrived, the three girls walked up the
8 High Street towards the direction of St Mark's Church on
9 the right-hand side of the High Street. They walked
10 past the police Land Rover and, when they reached the
11 Abbey National Building Society, Anne Bowles saw
12 Dean Forbes standing on a control traffic reservation.
13 Anne Bowles asked Forbes, 'What's going on?'. Forbes
14 replied, 'There's a fight going on'. The three girls
15 then left the scene and walked home. Anne Bowles
16 declined to make a statement."
17 I am going to ask you some questions in a minute,
18 but perhaps we can look at a second document, which is
19 page [07777], a further interview by another policeman
20 on 7th June 1997 at your home. The first line:
21 "She stated that as they were at the Northern Bank
22 in High Street on 27/04/97, they saw a crowd of about
23 50 persons in the middle of the road at the junction of
24 Thomas Street/Market Street and that there was a lot of
25 shouting. They then walked on up past the police
62
1 Land Rover to the Abbey National Building Society and it
2 was then that they saw Dean Forbes standing in the
3 traffic reservation in the centre of Market Street. She
4 cannot say if the police were out of the Land Rover when
5 they passed it, but accepted that they could have been
6 but it would have been impossible to see as the crowd
7 was all over the road and people were running
8 everywhere. She will say that there was no persons
9 standing at the police Land Rover when they parked it."
10 I think that should have been "passed it":
11 "She did not know who was with Dean Forbes."
12 Does that help?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, we can look at a model of how the scene might have
15 been at night-time on that date. We can see here --
16 this is taken from just outside Eastwoods Clothing shop,
17 if you might remember that, at the top of Thomas Street.
18 Down to the right is the road leading down to Boss Hogg's
19 and up to the left is the church. We can swing to the
20 left so you can see that part of it. There you see the
21 church and West Street.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. If we go back down to the right, and if you look down
24 the street a bit, just pausing it there, can you help us
25 about whether the Land Rover was there, where we put it,
63
1 or somewhere else?
2 A. I am not totally sure, but I thought it was more down
3 a bit, more in front of the Halifax, but I'm not totally
4 sure.
5 Q. Is it right that you couldn't recall, when asked in
6 1997, whether the police were out of the Land Rover?
7 A. Yes, I don't know.
8 Q. Can you help us with whereabouts on this scene people
9 were?
10 A. People were more at the bottom of the screen here.
11 Q. Sorry. At the bottom of --
12 A. Over at the other side of the road, just at the junction
13 of Thomas Street here.
14 Q. I am sorry. Nearer where the photographer is, you mean?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. You have described in the interviews you gave in May and
17 June with the policeman the people running around
18 everywhere --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- and, if the police were out, you wouldn't have been
21 able to see them.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you help us about what the crowd was up to? Was it
24 violent, aggressive, noisy or what?
25 A. I can't really remember. I just remember seeing
64
1 a massive mob. There was loads of people.
2 Q. Were you up on this side of the street on the
3 Thomas Street side or --
4 A. No, I was the far side where the Land Rover was. We had
5 walked up the town, that side of the street.
6 Q. Okay. Were you frightened?
7 A. I probably was frightened, you know. I just couldn't
8 wait to get past it all.
9 Q. If we swing round again to the left here, we see traffic
10 reservations around here.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you spoke to the police officers and told them you
13 had bumped into Dean Forbes at a traffic reservation, do
14 you mean one further down the road here or up near the
15 church?
16 A. I think I was speaking to Dean -- see where that sign is
17 in the middle of the road now?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Roughly round that area.
20 Q. So pretty much outside Clarks?
21 A. Yes, or -- yes, it was around that area.
22 Q. Can I show you something Dean Forbes said when he was
23 interviewed by the police and again see if that helps
24 your memory about what you might have seen?
25 A. Yes.
65
1 Q. If we look at page [07064], picking it up after the
2 first paragraph there is a question:
3 Question: "And what did you do?"
4 Answer: "Well, I did what the policewoman had told
5 me to do, backed off."
6 Question: "There was two fellows lying on the
7 ground. Could you describe the position of those in
8 relation to the junction and any of the shops that are
9 there?"
10 Answer: "Where Eastwoods' shutter was, just sort
11 of level with that in the middle of the road."
12 Then, if we go over the page, [07065], the third
13 paragraph down:
14 Question: "What was happening at that stage then
15 whenever you first seen that?"
16 Answer: "Well, people were just, you know, getting
17 tore into each other and then the police --"
18 Question: "What do you mean 'getting tore into
19 each other'?"
20 Answer: "Hitting each other with their fists and
21 what have you, and while that fellow was lying on the
22 ground, and then --"
23 Question: "Did he -- did you see him being struck?"
24 Answer: "Shortly after, when I moved more further
25 back, I could see him getting hit. He was getting
66
1 kicked even."
2 Question: "Where did you see those kicks going
3 to?""
4 Overleaf, [07066]:
5 Answer: "Just in and around there."
6 Question: "And for the purposes of the tape, you are
7 indicating to us the ...?"
8 Answer: "The ribs and what have you."
9 If we go down towards the bottom quarter of the
10 page, there is a question:
11 Question: "And he was kicked about the head. Isn't
12 that right?"
13 Answer: "Well, I saw another fellow running in and
14 kicking him from the crowd, but I couldn't see where he
15 was getting kicked."
16 Question: "Where did you see the other fellow on
17 the road?"
18 Answer: "The other fellow lying on the road, he
19 was lying further back more near the path of the bakery,
20 so he was, closer to the junction at the corner."
21 Overleaf, [07067], if we go halfway down the page
22 there is a question:
23 Question: "And where -- just tell me exactly where
24 you say you were at that time?"
25 Answer: "At that time, I was standing just where
67
1 the flowerpots were, just in the middle of the road at
2 the neck where they split the junction on that traffic
3 island thing."
4 Question: "Yes. That new traffic island thing
5 that you can drive around. You were standing on it,
6 were you?"
7 Overleaf [07068]:
8 Answer: "Yes, at the very back of it."
9 If we go to page [07069], he is asked:
10 Question: "Did you get involved in any fighting at
11 all?"
12 Answer: "No."
13 Question: "What did you do then during this fight?"
14 Answer: "While that was -- while that was all
15 going on, I was standing talking to the girls."
16 Question: "Who? What girls are you taking about?"
17 Answer: "Anne and Lynn Bowles."
18 Question: "Anne and Lynn Bowles and their third
19 sister?"
20 Answer: "I think it was their other sister."
21 Question: "You think it was their third sister?"
22 Answer: "Yes."
23 Now, we have not seen Mr Forbes yet and we don't
24 know if that's true or not, but the account he was
25 giving to the police was a very detailed one of what
68
1 people were doing and of two people he could describe on
2 the ground and where he was, which is just where you
3 have been describing you bumped into him, and he says,
4 rightly or wrongly, that he was standing there talking
5 to you, your sister and another girl.
6 Does that help you with what you were able to see?
7 A. I didn't see a punch that night. I just saw a massive
8 mob of people.
9 Q. Were you the sort of girl who went out and looked at
10 trouble, if you saw it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You told us before that what you wanted to do was get
13 out of there, get past it as quickly as possible?
14 A. Yes. I wasn't even speaking to Dean that long.
15 Q. Help us on that.
16 A. Yes. I basically asked Dean what was going on. All he
17 could tell me was there was a fight had broke out at the
18 bottom of Thomas Street.
19 Q. Could you tell what he was about? Was he sitting there
20 looking relaxed, or did he look tense to go and join in
21 or anything of that nature?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. If there had been kicking and punching and people on the
24 ground by the time you had got to that traffic sign
25 area --
69
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- and you had been talking to him about it --
3 A. I didn't see anybody on the ground.
4 Q. That's what I was really going to ask you.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have told us when you were going past the Land Rover
7 you wouldn't have been able to see if the police were
8 out because there was such a crowd.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But by the time you got up there, can you tell us
11 whether the situation had changed, whether it was still
12 such a busy crowd that you wouldn't have been able to
13 see what was going on in it?
14 A. Yes. There was just a big massive mob of crowd.
15 I didn't know what was going on.
16 Q. Just some other things I want to see if you can help us
17 about. Do you know Stacey Bridgett?
18 A. I know Stacey Bridgett just to say hello to. I don't
19 know him on a personal level.
20 Q. We know that at some point in the evening while the
21 fight was in progress or was just starting that
22 Mr Forbes and Stacey Bridgett were with each other. Did
23 you see him around?
24 A. No. When I was speaking to Dean, I think Dean was on
25 his own. I am not totally sure, but I didn't see
70
1 Stacey.
2 Q. Did you see anybody with a bloody nose, do you recall?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know Andrew Allen?
5 A. No.
6 Q. He went by the name of "Fonzy" apparently.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you recognise anyone else in the area?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just ask: would you know Andrew Allen
10 or "Fonzy" by sight?
11 A. I might recognise "Fonzy" by sight, but I don't --
12 I have a vague idea who he is, but I am not 100% sure.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you recognise anybody else around the
15 area that night?
16 A. Dean was the only one I knew, that I saw that I knew.
17 Q. Just remind me again what it is you think he told you.
18 A. He just told me that a fight had broke out at the bottom
19 of Thomas Street.
20 Q. Did you hear any screaming, shouting at any stage?
21 A. I can't remember. I can't remember if there was
22 screaming and shouting.
23 Q. Did you meet Neil Ritchie in the evening?
24 A. I can't remember meeting Neil that night down the town.
25 I don't think I did.
71
1 Q. I am so sorry.
2 A. I don't think I saw Neil downtown. I didn't see Neil
3 downtown that night.
4 Q. Okay. Did anybody else that you came across say
5 anything else apart from a fight had started at the top
6 of Thomas Street?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I hope you understand how important this is and we are
9 doing the very best we can to piece together memories
10 that are now 12 years old. We obviously appreciate you
11 coming.
12 Is there anything else you think you can help us
13 with on this?
14 A. No.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. You may be
16 asked some more questions.
17 A. Okay.
18 MR McGRORY: No questions.
19 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
20 MR ADAIR: Ms Bowles, you saw the police, first of all, on
21 10th May. I am sure you won't remember the date, but
22 that's the date. This is at page [07776], if we could
23 just have that on the screen, please.
24 How did the police get in touch with you? Did they
25 call at your house or phone you to come to the station?
72
1 A. They came to my house.
2 Q. They came to your house and they talked to you in your
3 house and wanted to know what you had seen. Is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It is on the screen what you told the police on
7 10th May. You make no mention at all of seeing anybody,
8 let alone any crowd in the street, apart from
9 Dean Forbes.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Now why was that?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. You see, you had seen this mob on the street. Isn't
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But yet, when you were first seen by the police on
17 10th May, you make absolutely no mention of it?
18 A. I don't know. I'm sure I told the police there was
19 a mob of people. I don't know.
20 Q. You were asked then to make a statement about what you
21 had seen, and you refused.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Why was that?
24 A. Because I just felt that I had nothing basically to tell
25 the police and I wanted nothing to do with this.
73
1 Q. Well, could it be it is the second part of your answer
2 is the accurate part; that you wanted nothing to do with
3 it?
4 A. I had no relevant information to tell the police either.
5 Q. Well, we know when you saw the police again -- they came
6 to see you again. Did they come again to your house?
7 A. Yes, I think so.
8 Q. That was on 7th June. I am sure, again, you won't
9 remember the date. That's at page [07777]. On this
10 occasion, you tell the police about walking up past the
11 police Land Rover essentially at the time the crowd were
12 at the junction of Thomas Street. Isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do I understand that what you are telling us here today
15 is that throughout that time that you walked up past the
16 Land Rover, through the crowd, stood talking to --
17 A. I didn't walk through the crowd.
18 Q. Round the crowd.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. At the junction of Woodhouse Street, stood talking to
21 Dean Forbes --
22 A. I didn't actually walk round the crowd either. The
23 crowd was across the other side of the road.
24 Q. Okay. You walked across the road from the crowd,
25 Ms Bowles --
74
1 A. Right. Okay.
2 Q. -- but you saw nothing happening?
3 A. There was that many people, you couldn't see what was
4 going on.
5 Q. You saw nobody hitting each other?
6 A. I didn't see a punch that night.
7 Q. Did you hear anybody shouting abuse at the police?
8 A. I don't know. No. I can't remember. No, I don't think
9 so.
10 Q. Did you hear any bottles being thrown?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you hear anybody screaming?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Did you hear anybody shouting?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Did you hear any sirens?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is it just you don't want to tell us what you saw?
19 A. No, that's not the case. I have told you everything
20 I know.
21 Q. I suggest to you, Ms Bowles, that you are symptomatic of
22 the problem the police had in trying to investigate this
23 crime.
24 A. No, that's wrong.
25 Q. Saw nothing, heard nothing.
75
1 A. I have told you what I have saw.
2 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
3 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
4 MS DINSMORE: I have just one question, Mrs Smyth. I wonder
5 could we have [07777] again, please, on the screen? If
6 we could just look at six lines from the bottom, it
7 starts:
8 "She cannot say if police were out of the Land Rover
9 when they passed it, but accepted that they could have
10 been, but it would have been impossible to see, as the
11 crowd was all over the road ..."
12 So it is absolutely clear in your mind that the
13 police could well have been out of the Land Rover and
14 you are not for a moment suggesting that there was no
15 police presence?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Nor for a moment are you suggesting that your evidence
18 to the Inquiry is that there were police sitting in the
19 Land Rover observing what you claim to observe?
20 A. No.
21 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.
22 MR McGRORY: I have a few short questions.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You weren't quick enough off the mark!
24 MS DINSMORE: Oh, sorry, Mr McGrory.
25
76
1 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
2 MR McGRORY: That's all right. I earlier declined.
3 I want to ask you some questions, Ms Bowles, on
4 behalf of the Hamill family.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. "I basically wanted nothing to do with this", was
7 an answer you gave Mr Adair beside me a few moments ago.
8 Do you realise what we are talking about here is the
9 fact that a young man was beaten to death in the street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Probably for one reason only and that was his religion?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. But you did realise at the time, if not that night, very
14 quickly afterwards, what had happened that night?
15 A. Yes. Well, I heard on the news after that, yes.
16 Q. There were a lot of young people around Portadown
17 centre, maybe 40 to 50 young people, on that particular
18 occasion.
19 You see, one of the problems we are encountering in
20 this Inquiry, Ms Bowles, is an awful lot of those young
21 people seem to have had a reluctance to cooperate with
22 the police.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have basically said you wanted nothing to do with
25 this.
77
1 A. It was nothing to do with me. I was in the wrong place
2 at the wrong time. I was walking home with my own
3 friends.
4 Q. Yes, but I have to suggest to you that the fact that you
5 might have seen nothing is a simple answer, but wanting
6 nothing to do with it is another matter altogether.
7 A. I have told yous what I have saw.
8 Q. But if you told the police everything that you had seen,
9 why do you need to say you basically wanted nothing to
10 do with it?
11 A. I didn't want no involvement in it. It was nothing to
12 do with me. I wasn't involved in it.
13 Q. But you wouldn't be involved if you hadn't seen
14 anything. The police wouldn't have been interested in
15 you after that.
16 A. I didn't -- I have told you what I saw.
17 Q. That's not what I am asking you.
18 If you had told the police the truth, that you had
19 seen nothing, they would have been happy with that.
20 They wouldn't have been interested in you after that.
21 Do you understand that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. By basically saying, "I wanted nothing to do with it"
24 I am suggesting to you that reveals that was the reason
25 why you told the police you hadn't seen anything?
78
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you telling the truth?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you accept that there might have been a lot of people
5 who were present in the centre of Portadown that night
6 who would rather not have been involved in giving
7 information?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that's really for the witness
9 to say.
10 MR McGRORY: Very well, sir. I accept that. No further
11 questions.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, it is possible to be of this state
13 of mind, isn't it, "I didn't see anything and,
14 therefore, I wanted nothing to do with it"?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I hear the witness saying, "Yes". You may
17 say I am prompting her.
18 MR McGRORY: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: There are two ways in which the sequence may
20 go, are there not? "I didn't want to be involved, so
21 I said I saw nothing". "I saw nothing and so I didn't
22 want to be involved".
23 A. Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
79
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mrs Smyth.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 (The witness withdrew)
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Alison Bowles, please.
7 MS ALISON ESTHER BOWLES (sworn)
8 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon.
10 A. Hi.
11 Q. My name is Underwood and I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
12 I have some questions for you.
13 Can you tell us your full name, please?
14 A. It is Alison Esther Bowles. Well, it was at the time.
15 Q. What is it now?
16 A. Alison Esther Whitton.
17 Q. If we look at page [80080] -- it will come up on the
18 screen -- if we just flick through these three
19 pages fairly briefly, is that a statement you kindly
20 signed for us last year?
21 A. It is, yes.
22 Q. Is it true?
23 A. It is, yes.
24 Q. I want to ask some questions, like I asked your sister
25 some questions --
80
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. -- about what you would have seen on 27th April 1997?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. She told us that you were together, that you saw
5 Dean Forbes -- you walked up the town from the
6 Boss Hogg's area to past the police Land Rover to the
7 area where there is a traffic control just before the
8 church --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- and you bumped into Dean Forbes there.
11 Can I show you a couple of documents to jog your
12 memory to see what you can recall of that, please?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. If we look at page [07777], this is a note of interview
15 with your sister.
16 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
17 Q. 7th June 1997. So six weeks or so after the events:
18 "Interviewed Anne Bowles on 07/06/97 at her home.
19 She stated that as they were at the Northern Bank in the
20 High Street on 27/04/97, they saw a crowd of
21 about 50 persons in the middle of the road at the
22 junction of Thomas Street/Market Street and that there
23 was a lot of shouting. They then walked on up past the
24 police Land Rover to the Abbey National Building Society
25 and it was then that they saw Dean Forbes standing in
81
1 the traffic reservation in the centre of Market Street.
2 "She cannot say if the police were out of the
3 Land Rover when they passed it, but accepted that they
4 could have been, but it would have been impossible to
5 see, as the crowd was all over the road and people were
6 running everywhere. She will say that there was no
7 persons standing at the police Land Rover when they
8 parked it."
9 We think that probably means "passed it":
10 "She did not know who was with Dean Forbes."
11 Then if we go over the page to [07778], we see the
12 final few lines of that page, same time, same date, same
13 police officer:
14 "Interviewed Alison Bowles on 07/06/97 at her home.
15 She gave the same details as her sister Anne Bowles as
16 shown in A325."
17 Were you interviewed together, in fact, or just one
18 after the other?
19 A. I think we were interviewed together. I am not 100%
20 sure, but I think we were, yes.
21 Q. We have a model of the scene we have put together.
22 Perhaps I can show you that. You can see here, just to
23 get you orientated, this is like a photograph taken from
24 just outside Eastwoods Clothing shop, if you can
25 remember that.
82
1 Down to the right-hand side there is
2 Market Street/High Street going down towards Boss Hogg's.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. We can swing to the right a little bit and show you
5 a slightly better view of that. Then, if we go back to
6 the left, we can see the church, West Street where that
7 tree is really, and then there is a sign giving traffic
8 directions --
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. -- just outside Clarks.
11 Now, can you help us with which side of the street
12 you were walking up when you walked up from Boss Hogg's?
13 A. It would have been the side of the street where the
14 Alliance & Leicester was. It would have been down by
15 the Northern Bank.
16 Q. So passing the entrance to Woodhouse Street rather than
17 Thomas Street?
18 A. Yes. We didn't walk up the other side. It was that
19 side, yes.
20 Q. Can you help us about the Land Rover? If we swung back
21 to the right, can you remember whether it was parked
22 there or somewhere different?
23 A. I can remember a Land Rover being there, but I can't
24 exactly remember where it was parked --
25 Q. All right.
83
1 A. -- so I can't.
2 Q. When you bumped into Dean Forbes, again can you help us,
3 if we swing left a bit here, both your sister and he
4 have said that took place roughly where that traffic
5 sign is. Can you help us on that?
6 A. Yes. I think it was round, you know, the Abbey National
7 was from my memory. I am not 100% sure.
8 Q. Where is the Abbey National?
9 A. The Abbey National would have been round where that
10 traffic ...
11 Q. Right. Now the critical question for us is: what was
12 going on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We are grateful for any help anybody can give us about
15 this, because it is obviously a matter of great
16 importance.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. In particular, we are concerned to know what sort of
19 fighting was going on and what the police were doing
20 about it and where they were.
21 Now, can you recall seeing any policemen on the
22 ground?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were there any other police vehicles around?
25 A. Not that I can remember.
84
1 THE CHAIRMAN: "The ground" may be ambiguous.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Out of the Land Rover is what I should say,
3 walking, running around or standing?
4 A. I can't remember anything like that.
5 Q. Can you recall any noise in particular, like sirens or
6 shouting, sectarian abuse?
7 A. I don't honestly remember, to be honest with you.
8 I don't remember if there was anything shouted or what
9 was shouted or anything, so I don't. I'm sure there was
10 noise obviously, like, but I can't say for definite what
11 I heard.
12 Q. You obviously agreed with what your sister had said --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- when you were both interviewed in 1997. That was to
15 the effect there was a crowd of about 50 people around
16 and about.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Again, using this model if you want to, can you help
19 with where that crowd was? Were they over on this side
20 of the street or over by the Land Rover or where?
21 A. From my memory it was in around the bottom of the --
22 across the road from the Alliance & Leicester, more of
23 a crowd was there.
24 Q. Really at the mouth of Thomas Street?
25 A. Yes, yes.
85
1 Q. Was this the sort of thing you had seen before, a crowd
2 of 50 people milling around in that way?
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. Give us a feeling of the atmosphere of it? Was it
5 frightening?
6 A. It probably was frightening, yes, so it was, because
7 there was a large crowd there, so there was. It
8 probably was frightening, yes.
9 Q. Did you hurry past it or linger or try to have a look or
10 what?
11 A. No. I probably walked on past it, so I did, and, you
12 know, at the Alliance & Leicester just on up towards the
13 Abbey National.
14 Q. When you met Dean Forbes, what happened then?
15 A. I never spoke to Dean Forbes, so I didn't.
16 Q. It was just between your sister and him, was it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you a little apart from them or do you remember how
19 that was?
20 A. I honestly can't remember how far away I was from him.
21 Q. Did you and she stop for very long?
22 A. No, it would have just been to ask what was going on
23 over there, more or less to find out what was going on,
24 but we didn't hang about.
25 Q. No interest in it, no fascination in what might have
86
1 been behind you?
2 A. No, no involvement. Didn't want to know anything, you
3 know.
4 Q. Because one of the matters the Inquiry is going to have
5 to consider is what Dean Forbes was doing that night.
6 He has given an account to the police about talking to
7 you at some length.
8 Can I show it to you for you to comment on it?
9 A. Uh-huh, yes.
10 Q. It starts on page [07064]. In the middle of that page
11 he is describing what he did: namely, that a policewoman
12 had told him to back off. He is asked a question just
13 after that:
14 Question: "There was two fellows lying on the
15 ground. Could you describe the position of those in
16 relation to the junction and any of the shops that are
17 there?
18 Answer: "Where Eastwoods' shutter was, just sort
19 of level with that in the middle of the road."
20 So he is able to describe from wherever he was two
21 men lying on the ground.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Then over the page at [07065], about a third of the way
24 down, he says:
25
87
1 Answer: "Well, people were just, you know, getting
2 tore into each other, and then the police --"
3 Question: "What do you mean getting tore into each
4 other?"
5 Answer: "Hitting each other with their fists and
6 what have you, and while that fellow was lying on the
7 ground, and then --"
8 Question: "Did he -- did you see him being struck?"
9 Answer: "Shortly after, when I moved more further
10 back, I could see him getting hit. He was getting
11 kicked even."
12 He is able to describe all of that. Then if we go
13 to page [07067], about halfway down the page there is
14 a question:
15 Question: "And where -- just tell me exactly where
16 you say you were at that time?"
17 Answer: "At that time, I was standing just where
18 the flowerpots were, just in the middle of the road at
19 the neck where they split the junction on that traffic
20 island thing."
21 Going over the page, [07068], halfway down
22 a question:
23 Question: "And that's what you saw happening when
24 you were standing there? This man getting kicked in the
25 ribs, and you say you saw a man kicking him in the head,
88
1 you said?"
2 Answer: "Well, I don't know if it was in the head
3 because of the crowd that was there."
4 He goes on to describe him. Then, if we go over to
5 [07069], second line:
6 Question: "Did you get involved in any fighting at
7 all?"
8 Answer: "No."
9 Question: "What did you do then during this fight?"
10 Answer: "While that was -- while that was all
11 going on, I was standing talking to the girls."
12 Question: "Who? What girls are you talking about?"
13 Answer: "Anne and Lynn Bowles."
14 Question: "Anne and Lynn Bowles and their third
15 sister?"
16 Answer: "I think it was their other sister."
17 Question: "You think it was the third sister?"
18 Answer: "Yes."
19 So he is saying you two sisters and what must have
20 been xxxxxxxxxx, I think, were standing there talking to
21 him while he could see all of this fighting going on.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It very important from his perspective, you
24 understand --
25 A. Uh-huh.
89
1 Q. -- because the police suspected him -- and the Inquiry
2 is going to have to look into this question -- of being
3 involved in killing Robert Hamill, and his alibi, if you
4 like, is you. He wasn't there killing anybody; he was
5 standing there chatting to you and able to see it all.
6 Now, can you give him that alibi or not?
7 A. No, because I wasn't standing talking to him. From my
8 memory, I cannot remember if I was standing talking to
9 Dean Forbes. I can't even say of a conversation I had
10 with him, and Lynn Bowles wasn't even there that night.
11 Q. The Inquiry obviously is going to only get this short
12 opportunity to see you. It doesn't know whether you are
13 the sort of girl who would hurry away from violence or
14 watch it for a sport.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you help us with what the position would have been
17 that night if you had been standing there and you had
18 seen people being kicked in the head and kicked in the
19 ribs, lying on the ground with a crowd baying for them
20 to die? Would that have stuck in your mind?
21 A. No, but I didn't see that.
22 Q. No, but if you had, how would that have struck you?
23 Would that have been the sort of thing that horrified
24 you or fascinated you or what?
25 A. That would have been a thing that would have been in
90
1 your head, but I didn't see that.
2 Q. How likely is it then that that happened while you were
3 standing there talking to Dean Forbes and you have
4 simply forgotten it?
5 A. No, I don't remember talking -- I remember seeing
6 Dean Forbes, but I don't remember having a conversation
7 with him.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you. That's very helpful. If you wait
9 there, some other people may have some questions for
10 you.
11 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
12 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
13 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
14 Could you bring up again [07777], please? This is
15 the note I think you were shown earlier on about the
16 time the police came to talk to you and your sister. Do
17 you remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were talked to together. Basically, both of you
20 agreed with what the other was saying. Is that right?
21 A. Yes, uh-huh.
22 Q. So I take it then that you agree that -- do you see
23 about halfway down where it says:
24 "She cannot say if the police were out of the
25 Land Rover when they passed it, but accepted that they
91
1 could have been, but it would have been impossible to
2 see, as the crowd was all over the road and people were
3 running everywhere."
4 Do you agree with that, just like your sister said?
5 A. Uh-huh, yes.
6 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
8 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
9 MR McGRORY: Yes.
10 Sorry, Ms Bowles. I am going to ask you a very few
11 short questions on behalf of the Hamill family.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. I just want you to understand that the Hamill family are
14 very concerned that perhaps a lot of people have not
15 been as forthcoming as they could have been about what
16 they saw that night.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Do you understand that that is a very important matter,
19 because Robert Hamill was kicked to death on the night
20 of 27th April?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. You would have been aware that he died of his injuries
23 some ten days later?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I am going to suggest to you that in view of what
92
1 Mr Forbes says he saw, that was put to you by
2 Mr Underwood a short while ago --
3 A. Uh-huh, yes.
4 Q. -- that you were in or about the same place in front of
5 the church?
6 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
7 Q. You would have had pretty much the same view of what the
8 crowd were doing as he did?
9 A. No -- Dean Forbes obviously had seen something that
10 I didn't see. I am not going to say something that
11 I didn't see. Do you know what I mean? I am not going
12 to sit here and say something when I didn't see
13 something like that.
14 Yes, I would have been standing where Dean Forbes
15 was that night, but I didn't see what Dean Forbes seen.
16 Q. You see, I am going to suggest to you that all of this
17 was going on and you must have walked past it?
18 A. We walked past the other side of the road.
19 Q. Yes, but even taking into account the fact that you were
20 walking up a different side of the road --
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. -- you would have been walking past what was a virtual
23 riot. Do you --
24 A. Well, at the time, whenever we were walking past it,
25 I wasn't 100% sure what was going on over there. I knew
93
1 there was a crowd of people, but I didn't know until we
2 got up and asked what was -- well, Anne asked what -- to
3 Dean Forbes what was going on over there.
4 Q. You see, we have varying descriptions of what happened,
5 but there were various stages in what happened.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. At an early stage I am going to suggest to you that
8 there is evidence that Robert Hamill and others who were
9 with him were attacked for no good reason --
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. -- and he was beaten while lying on the ground. Do you
12 understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that thereafter a situation of mayhem ensued --
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. -- as others came along, and there was some fighting
17 afterwards. Do you accept that?
18 A. There was fighting. Sorry, what do you mean by --
19 Q. In the street. Street fighting amongst two different
20 groups.
21 A. There was another fight that night?
22 Q. Well, what I am suggesting to you is what happened to
23 Robert Hamill was not a fight, that he was attacked.
24 A. Right, okay, uh-huh.
25 Q. But that after that happened, there was fighting between
94
1 people?
2 A. I didn't see anything like that. I don't remember
3 anything like that.
4 Q. This is what I am asking you about, because I am
5 suggesting to you that you must have come along the
6 street at some point either during the time when
7 Robert Hamill was being attacked on the ground --
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. -- or that there was fighting in the immediate aftermath
10 of that, and you must have seen it.
11 A. I don't remember seeing anything like that, so I don't.
12 I don't remember seeing a fight after it at all.
13 Q. And that even standing at the church, you would have had
14 a good view of exactly what was going on down at the
15 junction.
16 A. I didn't see anything that was going on down at that
17 junction, so I didn't. I definitely didn't. I don't
18 even remember anything like that or fighting --
19 Q. Well, is it --
20 A. -- after that.
21 Q. -- the case, Ms Bowles, you just don't want to be
22 involved in this and you are just not telling us what
23 you saw?
24 A. No, that's not the case. I am not going to sit here and
25 say something that I am supposedly meant to have seen
95
1 when I didn't see it.
2 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions.
3 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
4 MR McCOMB: No questions.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
6 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Just two things. First of all, you said just
8 now that Anne asked Dean Forbes what was going on.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Did you hear what he said in reply?
11 A. I honestly don't even remember what he said. By my
12 notes it said that he said there was a fight going on,
13 but I don't even remember -- it is too long. I don't
14 even remember what he said. That's the truth.
15 Q. Did you and your sister stop when she asked him that
16 question?
17 A. Yes, we probably did stop. I assume we stopped, so
18 I did. I don't think we walked, shouting it or walked on
19 or whatever.
20 Q. No, but can you remember for how long you stopped?
21 A. It wouldn't have been that long.
22 Q. Are we speaking of seconds or minutes?
23 A. I don't honestly know. There is no point in saying
24 because I don't know.
25 Q. But you think it wasn't for long?
96
1 A. No, I don't think it was for long.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. I have nothing arising
4 out of that. That's your evidence. Thank you for
5 coming.
6 A. Okay. Thank you.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we have one further witness for this
9 afternoon, who is Stephen Sinnamon. I am being asked
10 for a comfort break before we arrive at him.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
12 (2.45 pm)
13 (A short break)
14 (3.00 pm)
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Stephen Sinnamon, please.
16 MR STEPHEN TREVOR SINNAMON (affirmed)
17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Sinnamon, can you tell the Panel your full
19 name, please?
20 A. It is Stephen Trevor Sinnamon.
21 Q. Thank you. I want to be asking you about events of the
22 early hours of 27th April 1997. To jog your memory, we
23 have some documents and some photographs and we have
24 a model.
25 Can I just show you the model, for a start, to give
97
1 you a recall, as best we can, of what Portadown centre
2 looked like in April 1997? This is taken from outside
3 Eastwoods Clothing Store and the shop signs on here are
4 as they were in April 1997.
5 If we swing round to the right and keep going round
6 360 degrees, that is Number 7 Bakery at the top of
7 Thomas Street. Beginning to look down Thomas Street,
8 there is Jamesons. You see the British Legion area down
9 there. This is Eastwoods itself. Then we are looking
10 back towards the church, West Street and top of
11 Woodhouse Street. If we leave it there, we have put
12 a Land Rover there principally for the purpose of asking
13 witnesses if they can recall seeing one and, if so,
14 whether that's the right position.
15 Can I ask you, first of all, in respect of the night
16 have you got any decent memory of it?
17 A. It's not great, being honest.
18 Q. Let's see if I can jog it.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. If we look at page [08141], this is something called
21 a QPF. It is a questionnaire which police had in April
22 and May 1997 and they were going asking questions based
23 on it of anybody they knew might have been in the area.
24 This one is the one they asked of you. They had spaces
25 in it, but they have typed in the answers here.
98
1 If we pick it up from there, we see this was
2 9th May 1997. Do you remember being seen by the police
3 then?
4 A. Sorry.
5 Q. Do you remember being seen by the police around
6 9th May 1997?
7 A. I remember them coming to the house, yes.
8 Q. Okay. These are standard questions:
9 "You have been identified as being present at
10 Market Street, Portadown, on 27th April 1997 at or
11 around the time of a serious assault.
12 "Where were you coming from?"
13 The answer that has been typed in for you there is:
14 "Coach Inn, Banbridge."
15 Do you remember that night being at the Coach Inn
16 and coming back from --
17 A. I remember at the Coach Inn.
18 Q. "Who was with you?
19 "'Grogs'."
20 We have seen documents suggesting "Grogs" was
21 Gregory Blevins. Is that helpful?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That's right, is it? There is a name blanked out:
24 "'Fonzy'."
25 That's Andrew.
99
1 A. Andrew?
2 Q. Andrew Allen.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "Tracey Clarke, Tracy Newell", also known, I think, as
5 Tracy McAlpine. Did you know her by that name?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right:
8 "Kelly Lavery, Judith, Pauline Newell,
9 Andrew Osborne and Dean Forbes."
10 Were those people who were, in fact, with you?
11 A. I am not sure who Kelly Lavery is. I don't know if
12 Andrew was there.
13 Q. "Who else was in the vicinity?"
14 You say:
15 "No-one seen."
16 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so,
17 give details."
18 What you say is:
19 "Was aware of incident from outside McConvilles."
20 Can you tell us what you saw?
21 A. From McConvilles, you can't really see down there.
22 I heard scuffling and like that there. I went on down
23 to it. When I got there, I think it was pretty much
24 over.
25 Q. Can you help us with where McConvilles was? We can look
100
1 at the map or the model.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's look at the map, shall we? It will come up.
4 Can you orientate yourself here?
5 A. Let me see now.
6 Q. Was it at the church end or the Boss Hogg's end?
7 A. It is the church end.
8 Q. Can you remember which street it was in, or was it on
9 West Street?
10 A. Mandeville Street.
11 Q. We can zoom in on Mandeville Street, I think.
12 A. That would be McConvilles there, that "PH", public
13 house.
14 Q. I see. On the corner of Mandeville Street and
15 West Street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That's when you first heard something, you say?
18 A. I would have heard, of course.
19 Q. You went back down, you tell us?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. How far back down did you go? Did you go all the way to
22 the junction with Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street, or
23 what, or did you stay round by the church?
24 A. I went on down, right up to it.
25 Q. When you went back down, were you on your own or did
101
1 those others who had been walking up there with you walk
2 down with you?
3 A. I think I was on my own. I can't recall anybody else
4 being there.
5 Q. What did you see when you got there?
6 A. At that time, I think the ambulance was there, so it
7 was, and the police was moving everybody pretty much up.
8 Q. The ambulance was parked, was it, or moving?
9 A. Parked, I think it was parked.
10 Q. Let me just tell you this is very helpful because we
11 know when precisely the ambulance stopped and left
12 there, so this pins down for us a snapshot of what was
13 happening at a particular time.
14 We know it is between 1.58 and 2.02 that the
15 ambulance was there. You walked down West Street then,
16 I presume, did you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you say you went all the way down, did you stay on
19 that side of the road or did you cross over to the top
20 of Thomas Street or what?
21 A. It would have been down the middle of the road, I would
22 say. I am not really sure, to be honest.
23 Q. So you describe the ambulance as stationary. Did you
24 see anybody on the ground?
25 A. No.
102
1 Q. Did you see anybody with a stretcher?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Describe again what the police were doing for us, if you
4 would?
5 A. They were moving people up towards the church direction.
6 Q. How were they doing that? Were they in a line or were
7 they just one-on-one?
8 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you, to be honest.
9 I just noticed them moving up. It was a policewoman
10 I noticed. To be honest, I didn't even know how much
11 or...
12 Q. Okay. What was the atmosphere? Was it aggressive,
13 noisy?
14 A. I would say there would probably have been a bit of
15 tension or whatever. I can't really ...
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. Probably a bit of tension.
18 Q. Did you see the police with batons or riot guns, or, as
19 far as you could see, were they just walking people up?
20 A. As far as I could see, they were just walking them up.
21 Q. Any noise?
22 A. At that stage?
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. It was the noise that had alerted you in the first
103
1 place, I think.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you help us with whether you think the noise had
4 quietened down by the time you got down there or do you
5 just not remember?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. All right. You told the police in this questionnaire we
8 just looked at some of the names of people who, at that
9 stage, you thought you had been with coming back. You
10 just told us that you think when you walked back down
11 into the centre there you were on your own.
12 Did you see anybody that you recognised when you
13 went back down into the middle? I will put some names
14 to you. How about that? Dean Forbes?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Rory Robinson?
17 A. Who?
18 Q. Rory Robinson?
19 A. Sorry.
20 Q. Stacey Bridgett?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Andrew Allen?
23 A. No.
24 Q. "Fonzy", that is, of course.
25 A. No.
104
1 Q. Allister Hanvey, did you know him.
2 A. I knew him, but I could -- it's trying to put faces to
3 the people that I seen. I honestly don't know.
4 Q. Marc Hobson?
5 A. Don't know. Sorry.
6 Q. Did you know David Woods?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see him that night?
9 A. I seen him that night, but I don't -- I didn't see him
10 there at that time.
11 Q. All right. Did you see the Land Rover itself, the
12 police Land Rover?
13 A. As I was saying earlier on, I knew there was
14 a Land Rover there, but I couldn't tell you exactly
15 where. We were kind of -- it was there every week. Do
16 you know what I mean? You just didn't pay it any
17 attention.
18 Q. So you would have walked past it in the first place,
19 presumably?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. From what you are telling us, when you walked up the
22 street in the first place, there wasn't anything going
23 on. Would that be fair?
24 A. Sorry?
25 Q. When you walked up --
105
1 A. When I was walking up?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Not that I knew of. I would have been obviously ahead
4 of people and I didn't know anything. It was like,
5 whenever I got to there, I heard the ...
6 Q. Did you see any other police cars around, do you
7 remember?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. All right. I think you went on to a gathering at
10 Tracy Newell's house afterwards. Is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember who was there or anybody that was there?
13 A. There was a load of people there, like, but ...
14 Q. Allister Hanvey?
15 A. I am not sure if he was there or not. I think he
16 probably was. I don't know.
17 Q. Anybody wearing a silver jacket with orange stripes down
18 the sleeves?
19 A. I don't know what I was wearing that night. Sorry.
20 Q. As far as I can see, if we look back at this
21 questionnaire of yours, if we go to page [08142], which
22 is the second page of it, you tell us on the second main
23 line there in response to the question:
24 "If travelled from Banbridge, who else travelled to
25 Portadown with you?
106
1 "Chris Henderson."
2 Then you say:
3 "Got a lift home with his girlfriend."
4 Do you mean Chris Henderson got a lift home with his
5 girlfriend or you did?
6 A. I think it would have been Chris. He lived out in
7 Kernon.
8 Q. Okay. That's all then finished off. It describes you.
9 As far as we are aware, the police didn't have any
10 further dealings with you after this questionnaire in
11 1997.
12 A. Not that I can think of, no. I don't know.
13 Q. Did you have any more to do with them? Did you try to
14 get in touch with them, for example?
15 A. My mother did.
16 Q. What happened there?
17 A. She just -- she was at work when the police called at
18 the house and I told her they were there and what it was
19 about. She just phoned them up to see, you know --
20 I don't even know what she asked. She just phoned them
21 up to see what was going on, basically.
22 Q. You just mentioned there that you told her there was
23 fighting. You haven't told us you saw fighting.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you able to tell her there had been fighting
107
1 because of what you learned afterwards?
2 A. Sorry?
3 Q. Were you able to tell your mother there had been
4 fighting because of what you had heard afterwards?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where did you hear that from?
7 A. Hear there was fighting?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Well, I knew there was fighting. I was there.
10 Q. Sorry. My fault, I am sure. Let's see if I can take
11 you back over what you saw.
12 When you walked up through the town --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- there was nothing going on?
15 A. Well, there was an ambulance.
16 Q. When you walked up, there was nothing. Is that right?
17 A. Oh, yes, yes.
18 Q. You get up to Mandeville Street. You hear a commotion.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. You walk back down and you see police walking people
21 back up the street.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. You say there was tension in the air --
24 A. Probably would have been.
25 Q. -- and, of course, there was an ambulance. Did you just
108
1 assume there had been fighting or did you see anybody?
2 A. I seen it and heard it.
3 Q. So the commotion you heard was the sound of fighting?
4 A. It would have been the fighting.
5 Q. Sectarian sounds? Were people swearing at each other?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know anything that was being
7 said.
8 Q. Give us the best impression you can of what made you
9 think that the commotion was fighting.
10 A. The ambulance and the police moving people up, plus the
11 noise of the fighting, like.
12 Q. Excuse me a moment. I said there was no more dealing
13 with you. I should have taken you to page [03692]. On
14 21st May you were re-interviewed. It calls you P46
15 here. It is you:
16 "Re-interviewed P46 again. States he is unable to
17 recall whom he walked from Boss Hogg's to
18 St Mark's Church with. Stated initially that he walked
19 with Pauline Newell and Tracy McAlpine. Pointed out
20 neither had mentioned him. Then stated he walked on his
21 own. Recalled seeing Marc Hobson and Allister Hanvey
22 but didn't walk with them. Also saw Stacey Bridgett and
23 Dean Forbes but didn't walk with them. Denies seeing
24 the fight in centre of town. Just people running about.
25 Was at the church when he saw this."
109
1 It goes on:
2 "Did not believe P46's account. He was evasive in
3 his answers and replies. He knows or witnessed more but
4 will not divulge it. No statement recorded."
5 Taking this stage by stage: in May, when you were
6 interviewed by this officer, you name these names,
7 Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes, Marc Hobson,
8 Allister Hanvey. It says there:
9 "Denies seeing the fight ... just people running
10 about."
11 Can you help us with this? What you have described
12 to us today is hearing a commotion, then walking back
13 down and what you saw was the line of police bringing
14 people back up. Can you tell us, please, where running
15 around comes into that?
16 A. The running about was probably what was the police
17 moving people up. I can't really recall, to be honest.
18 Q. Then if we look at page [03419], this is the note of the
19 policeman who gave you that questionnaire we were
20 looking at and this is his impression of you about that
21 discussion he had with you:
22 "Pro forma attached. When first spoken to, P46 did
23 not mention the party. He described coming home from
24 the Coach, getting off the bus with Tracey Clarke and
25 Kelly Lavery - going to Boss Hogg's for chips and walking
110
1 along Market Street in the direction of McConvilles.
2 Stated that when he was in the area of the church, he
3 heard a bottle breaking."
4 Now, can you help us with that?
5 A. I would have heard a bottle breaking in the whole
6 commotion.
7 Q. Was that part of the commotion?
8 A. It would have been, yes.
9 Q. "He states at that time he looked round, saw a commotion
10 and walked on with the two girls before going home. It
11 was put to him that he had not gone straight home and he
12 then accepted that at 2.15 to 2.30 he had gone to a
13 party at Tracy Newell's (McAlpine's) house."
14 What he is saying there is that the first time he
15 spoke to you, not only did you not say you had been to
16 the party, but more importantly you did not say you had
17 gone back down into the town. Can you tell us why you
18 didn't do that?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Is it because you had seen people you had recognised
21 involved in fighting?
22 A. I never seen any fighting. I don't know why I said.
23 Q. If you had seen anybody you recognised doing anything,
24 attacking someone or even just fighting with somebody
25 else, would you have told the police about it?
111
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Going on, it says:
3 "He outlined that Tracey Clarke, Tracy Newell,
4 Dean Forbes, Andrew Osborne, nickname Ossie, who was
5 with a girl called Judith from Edgarstown,
6 Pauline Newell were at the party. He denies that there
7 were others present whom he could not name because he
8 was drunk. He also stated that at some stage during the
9 party the fight was discussed. By whom he would not
10 say."
11 I asked you earlier about whether you were able to
12 tell your mother there had been a fight because you had
13 simply gathered it from what you had seen or whether it
14 was because somebody described it to you afterwards.
15 Does this help you with that? Could it have been
16 that at the party there was quite a discussion about the
17 fight?
18 A. At the party -- I was saying that earlier -- I never
19 really asked anybody anything about it. I didn't want
20 to know, to be honest.
21 Q. But was there discussion about it?
22 A. I would say there would have been. I don't know.
23 Q. Tell us what the discussion was?
24 A. I can't recall.
25 Q. He goes on here, you see:
112
1 "It was discussed that 'one of them boys' hit wee
2 Davy Woods ... and it was then the fight started."
3 So you were able to tell this officer, on
4 9th May 1997, that at the gathering at Tracy Newell's
5 house there was discussion of the fight and part of that
6 discussion was that one of them boys -- that would be
7 a Catholic -- hit wee Davy Woods and it was then the
8 fight started.
9 How were you able to tell the officer that?
10 A. It must have been something I heard, picked up.
11 Q. "During the course of our time with P46, he was very
12 nervous. He welled up with tears and blushed
13 frequently. At the end, it was put to him that he had
14 not been absolutely truthful with us. He did not
15 actually say that was the case, but remained silent
16 before apologising that he could not be of any more
17 help."
18 Now, we know from a lot of people who come here that
19 Portadown wasn't a place that encouraged people to go to
20 the police and tell on Protestants who got involved in
21 violence, let alone violence which led to death.
22 Is that what was going on here?
23 A. I don't know. Could have been. I don't know.
24 Q. Let me ask you again. Is this the position: that when
25 you went back down to see what was going on with the
113
1 commotion, you got close to it and you saw people
2 fighting whom you could identify, and when the police
3 came and asked you about it, you were caught in a real
4 bind, because if you told the police what you had seen,
5 you would be in trouble in the community, but you wanted
6 to help the police, and what you ended up doing was
7 being evasive and blushing and apologising to them?
8 What do you say about that?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember that
10 there interview with the police.
11 Q. Why was your mother concerned to ring the police?
12 A. I would say any mother would be concerned. She phoned
13 them up. What she said to me after -- she just wanted
14 to know why they wanted to talk to me. She was, like,
15 reassured over the phone and that my name wasn't being
16 bandied about too much. She just wanted to make sure
17 I wasn't in trouble, basically.
18 Q. That's it, isn't it? She was worried to make sure you
19 weren't known in the community as naming anybody who had
20 murdered Mr Hamill?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Well, why would she be worried about your name being
23 bandied about the place?
24 A. She was worried about me. She is my mother.
25 Q. She was not worried you had actually done anything, was
114
1 she?
2 A. No, she believed me when I said I didn't.
3 Q. What else could she have been worried about?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. If we look at page [09129], we have the second page of
6 the statement of Pauline Newell here?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we have a date for this?
8 MR UNDERWOOD: I am sorry. It is a statement made on
9 20th May 1997. If we look at the second half of this,
10 halfway down this section she says:
11 "I slept ..."
12 This is at the house that the gathering was at:
13 "I slept and woke some time around 5.00 am. I got
14 up to get a drink of water and came downstairs to get
15 one. In the living room I saw a number of people.
16 I don't know who had let them in, but remember seeing
17 Allister Hanvey", you, "'Fonzy', Chris Henderson and
18 Dean Forbes."
19 Now, Chris Henderson was a friend of yours, wasn't
20 he?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There are you in the living room with Allister Hanvey,
23 "Fonzy" Allen and your friend Chris at 5 o'clock in the
24 morning, so three hours or so after the fight had taken
25 place. There must have been quite some discussion about
115
1 this fight, must there not?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. What did you do at this? Did you sit there silently
4 looking at each other.
5 A. Seriously, I don't know.
6 Q. Giving a Catholic a good kicking would have been quite
7 a topic of conversation, wouldn't it? No?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. If we look at page [00262], this is the statement of
10 Tracey Clarke made on 10th May 1997, so two days after
11 Mr Hamill died of his injuries.
12 If we pick it up halfway down this on the right-hand
13 side:
14 "Pauline Newell went into Boss Hogg's and got chips
15 and we waited for her. We walked up as far as the
16 Mandarin House in West Street. I think at that stage
17 the other persons with me were Pauline Newell,
18 Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery, Shelley Liggett and
19 a fellow called Jason. I would say that it was about
20 1.45 am approx when we were in West Street, as the bus
21 got in at about 1.30 am. Around this time we heard
22 shouting coming from the main street. I can't remember
23 what was said, but it was something like, 'Fight,
24 Fight'."
25 So here she is putting herself and all of these
116
1 other people, some of whom you have mentioned being with
2 that evening, up West Street hearing something like,
3 "Fight, fight". What she says is:
4 "We all ran down to see what was happening."
5 You ran down to see what was happening, as you have
6 told us. She goes on:
7 "When we got as far as the church, I could see
8 a crowd", overleaf, [00263], "at the junction of
9 Thomas Street/Market Street. I met up with
10 Stephen Bloomer at Poundstretcher and I just sat down
11 beside him. I saw two people lying on the street. One
12 was near the centre of the road and the other was near
13 the footpath close to Eastwoods. The person I saw in
14 the middle of the road I thought was dead as he was not
15 moving.
16 "It was at this time I saw a number of persons
17 gathered around the person lying in the centre of the
18 road. These persons were kicking the person on the
19 ground around the head and body. I saw them jump on the
20 person on the ground. They jumped all over him and
21 kicked him. I saw the persons who were doing this and
22 I can identify them as (1) Dean Forbes, (2)
23 Allister Hanvey, (3) Stacey Bridgett, (4) 'Muck'",
24 that's Marc Hobson, "(5) Rory Robinson."
25 Is that not what you saw as well?
117
1 A. No, I can't recall seeing that there.
2 Q. But she is describing almost exactly the incident and
3 the way in which she came to see it --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- as you -- how is it she could have experienced all
6 this and you not?
7 A. I don't know. At the time I was there, the ambulance
8 and all was there.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. I have no further questions.
10 Thank you.
11 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
12 MR FERGUSON: You were asked at one time if you had seen
13 anybody you knew fighting, or, indeed, if you had seen
14 any fighting, would you have told the police about it,
15 and your answer was, "I don't know".
16 Why wouldn't you have told the police if you had
17 seen anything of that nature?
18 A. It was like 12 years ago. I don't -- I can't honestly
19 answer what I would say at that stage, whether I would
20 have or whether I wouldn't have. I don't know.
21 Q. Well, did you not think it was your responsibility to
22 cooperate with the police and to help them with their
23 enquiries?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Well, why then would you say, "I don't know if I would
118
1 have told them"?
2 A. Because back then I don't honestly know if I would have
3 told them or not.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You must have a reason for saying, "I don't
5 know if I would have told them". We want to know from
6 you the reason.
7 A. I just don't know. I suppose.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You suppose what?
9 A. I suppose -- like I say, back then, I don't -- I don't
10 know. I don't know I would want to see anybody get into
11 trouble. I don't know what I would say back then.
12 MR FERGUSON: You didn't see any obligation on you to assist
13 the police in this matter?
14 A. It is, like -- you are obliged to help them, like.
15 Q. I am sorry?
16 A. You would be obliged to help. You would have to help
17 them, like.
18 Q. Why, then, did you say, "I don't know"?
19 A. Because back then when we were young, just -- I don't
20 know if I would have said.
21 Q. Or is it the position that back then you and a large
22 part of the Protestant population were not prepared to
23 cooperate with the police? Is that the reason?
24 A. I can't answer that.
25 Q. Why not?
119
1 A. Like I said, back then, I don't know if I would have
2 wanted -- you know, said or not.
3 Q. That's the only answer you can give?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.
6 MR ADAIR: No questions.
7 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
8 MR McGRORY: I have a few questions for you, Mr Sinnamon, on
9 behalf of the Hamill family.
10 Now, you were on the bus on the way back from the
11 Coach. Isn't that correct?
12 A. That's right, yes.
13 Q. Where did the bus drop you off?
14 A. I am not really sure.
15 Q. Can I help you with that? We have had a lot of evidence
16 about that. Was it on High Street at all?
17 A. It would have been on the High Street, yes. I would say
18 so.
19 Q. In order to get from -- can you remember just where on
20 High Street?
21 A. I can't remember exactly where, being honest. I think
22 it was -- I think it might have been by -- I think it
23 might have been by the Country Fried Chicken, although
24 I am not 100% about that.
25 Q. Do you know Boss Hogg's chip shop?
120
1 A. I remember it was either -- was Boss Hogg's there where
2 the Country Fried is now, or was -- because --
3 Boss Hogg's, it was either where the Subway is now or it
4 was --
5 Q. I don't need to know the precise location.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, it is now Subway.
7 MR McGRORY: It is now the Subway. That does help.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In order to get from where the bus left you off, you had
10 to walk past Boss Hogg's chip shop. Isn't that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had to walk past down past the junction of
13 Thomas Street, High Street and Market Street. Isn't
14 that right?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Then you had to walk on up towards the church?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. In order to get down to McConvilles, you would then have
19 had to have walked down West Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, when you first began to give your evidence, you
22 said you were alerted to something going on when you
23 reached McConvilles at the bottom of West Street.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember saying that earlier on?
121
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, are you saying that at that point at McConvilles
3 you could hear something?
4 A. At McConvilles?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes, I would have.
7 Q. What did you hear exactly?
8 A. I heard like there would have been shouting and I heard
9 a bottle smashing and ...
10 Q. You see, a little later in your evidence you agreed with
11 the police document at [03419] that you -- perhaps we
12 could have it back up -- that in the area of the church
13 you heard a bottle breaking. You then agreed that
14 that's where you heard the bottle breaking.
15 A. It must have been. It was around that area, yes.
16 Q. That's quite a different place than McConvilles. So why
17 did you tell us, when you first gave evidence, that you
18 were first alerted to something going on down at
19 McConvilles?
20 A. It was just McConvilles. It is in the same road, pretty
21 much the same place.
22 Q. I am suggesting to you that's not correct. It is quite
23 a distance down.
24 Isn't it correct that you were putting yourself as
25 far away as you could from the incident when you said
122
1 you were first alerted to it when you were at
2 McConvilles?
3 A. No. I thought it was McConvilles. I remember it as
4 McConvilles.
5 Q. So that was a mistake?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. That was a mistake then?
8 A. What was?
9 Q. When you said it was McConvilles.
10 A. It could have been. It was either there or at the
11 church, yes. I can't remember exactly where.
12 Q. Well, I am suggesting to you, Mr Sinnamon, those answers
13 reveal you are being as evasive as possible.
14 A. I am sorry?
15 Q. You are not going to be caught saying you were anywhere
16 near this fight, are you? You had been caught out when
17 this document was put to you, when it was shown to you
18 that you told the police you were at the church when you
19 heard the bottle. Isn't that right?
20 A. Sorry. Can you repeat that?
21 Q. You were telling this Inquiry first of all you were away
22 down at McConvilles and you had to come all the way
23 back. Isn't that right? That's what you told the
24 Inquiry first.
25 A. Yes.
123
1 Q. Then it was pointed out to you that you told the police
2 you were at the church when you heard the bottle break.
3 You had to accept that?
4 A. I was in one of the two places.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we just see the plan again, please?
6 MR McGRORY: Yes. Can we have the plan back up, please?
7 Perhaps the area of West Street and St Mark's Church
8 could be highlighted, that particular square. Thank
9 you.
10 Now, when you first gave your evidence, you said you
11 were as far down as McConvilles, which is the "PH" at
12 the very bottom of West Street
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. I am suggesting to you that you told the Inquiry, when
15 you began your evidence, that you were away down there
16 to make sure that you were as far away as possible?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So that you wouldn't be asked about what you had seen.
19 You weren't -- you didn't realise you were about to be
20 shown that, in fact, you told the police you were back
21 up at the church. Isn't that correct?
22 A. No.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me, Mr McGrory? Is there
24 a premises known as McConvilles or is McConvilles a way
25 of referring to McConville Street.
124
1 MR McGRORY: No, there is a public house on that corner
2 called McConvilles, and it is there to this day.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
4 MR McGRORY: Perhaps I could have [03419] back on the
5 screen, please, the bottom half:
6 "It was discussed that one of them boys hit wee
7 Davy Woods from [blank] and that it was then the fight
8 started. During the course of our time with P46, he was
9 very nervous, he welled up with tears and blushed
10 frequently."
11 Do you remember this exchange with the police,
12 Mr Sinnamon?
13 A. I can't remember that particular one.
14 Q. The police came back to speak to you a second time
15 because of this, because they thought you knew a lot
16 more than you were telling them.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you have an opportunity here, Mr Sinnamon, today,
19 to tell us what you did see.
20 The Hamill family are here. Mr Hamill was kicked
21 and beaten on this night and he died some ten days
22 later. It is one of the purposes of this Inquiry to
23 find out what exactly happened.
24 The police clearly believed that you were nervous,
25 that you were blushing, that tears welled up in your
125
1 eyes and you felt you could not tell them any more, but
2 that you had information that you could have given them.
3 Do you accept that they took that view?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What age were you then?
6 A. I would have been about 18, 19 or something.
7 Q. That would be quite a weight on your shoulders then,
8 wouldn't it, to have known who had killed somebody?
9 A. I didn't know.
10 Q. I am suggesting to you that you probably did. You
11 certainly knew who was involved, and some of them were
12 at the party you attended. Isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, how do you know they were involved?
15 A. Sorry?
16 Q. I asked you that some of those who were involved
17 attended the party and you said, "Yes". How did you
18 know that?
19 A. Some of the boys who were there was coming back, being
20 pushed back by the police that were at the party.
21 Q. Well, now, for most of your evidence this afternoon,
22 Mr Sinnamon, you have told us you saw nothing and heard
23 nothing but the smashing of a bottle.
24 Now you tell us that you saw boys being pushed back
25 by the police. Whom exactly did you see being pushed
126
1 back by the police?
2 A. I don't know who it was exactly. It was dark. I was
3 very, very drunk. Like I said to the police at the
4 time, I couldn't remember.
5 Q. But you have just told us they were some of the same
6 boys that were at the party. Isn't that right?
7 A. What?
8 Q. You have just told us that some of the boys that were at
9 the party were among those being pushed back by the
10 police.
11 A. That's what it says.
12 Q. Where does it say it?
13 A. It was in one of the other things there.
14 Q. No, no. It is only suggested to you that certain
15 individuals were at the party. Nobody is suggesting to
16 you in this document that those people attacked
17 Robert Hamill.
18 Now, you have disclosed a knowledge to us just now
19 that some of those people who were at the party were
20 involved in the attack on Robert Hamill, I am suggesting
21 to you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not quite sure that's right. He has
23 said they were being pushed back by the police.
24 MR McGRORY: Well, that's --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That can include spectators.
127
1 MR McGRORY: I accept that, sir. That's the next step.
2 Let's take step one. What you have disclosed to us is
3 that some people who were at the party were being pushed
4 back by the police. Isn't that right?
5 A. Like I said, I can't remember who exactly I seen at the
6 time.
7 Q. Well, that's not true, is it? Because when I asked you
8 earlier about the people at the party, and when you said
9 they were involved in the incident concerning
10 Robert Hamill, and I asked you for details, you said
11 they were being pushed back by the police. That was the
12 first time you disclosed that.
13 So are you now withdrawing from that or is that your
14 evidence?
15 A. What's that there, sorry?
16 Q. That some of those at the party were being pushed back
17 by the police, that you saw them.
18 A. I said earlier I couldn't tell you who exactly was there
19 being pushed back by the police.
20 Q. But you have already told us that some of those who were
21 there who were involved were being pushed back by the
22 police, so how do you know that if you didn't see them
23 being pushed back by the police?
24 A. I don't know who it was being pushed back at the time.
25 I can't recall.
128
1 Q. Can I suggest to you who they might have been?
2 Allister Hanvey. He was at the party, wasn't he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he one of those you saw being pushed back by the
5 police?
6 A. I am not sure. Could have been.
7 Q. Dean Forbes?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Was he at the party?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Did you see him being pushed back by the police?
12 A. I can't recall. I don't think so.
13 Q. Andrew Allen. Did you see him being pushed back by the
14 police?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Marc Hobson. Did you see him being pushed back by the
17 police?
18 A. (Witness shakes head).
19 Q. Then who was it, Mr Sinnamon, that you did see being
20 pushed back by the police who was at the party?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know who it was. I remember
22 seeing -- I don't know. I can't put a -- I can't put
23 a face.
24 Q. I am going to give you one last opportunity, because we
25 are not going to spend all afternoon going round in
129
1 circles, Mr Sinnamon, because you are not going to tell
2 us the truth of what you saw. You have one last
3 opportunity to tell this Inquiry what it was you
4 actually saw. You are not going to do it, are you?
5 A. What's that?
6 Q. Tell us what you actually saw.
7 A. I am not going to make something up. I am not going to
8 make it up.
9 MR McGRORY: No further questions.
10 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?
12 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
13 MR McCOMB: Perhaps just a couple of questions, sir.
14 You have been asked today to cast your mind back and
15 to look at material which you provided the police with
16 either by way of question and answer, whatever it was,
17 at an early stage after this incident. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You have been shown those today. Have you looked at
20 those recently? Have you looked at anything recently?
21 A. I haven't seen anything, no.
22 Q. Yes. Have you thought about what has happened and
23 thought about the Robert Hamill affair over the years?
24 A. Not really, no.
25 Q. In your answers to the various counsel who have asked
130
1 you questions this afternoon, have you had in your mind
2 a clear picture of what was happening that night? Have
3 you seen what was happening or are you trying to answer
4 questions based on what you have been shown from various
5 documents?
6 A. I can't -- my mind at the time whenever the police was
7 talking to me, I told them -- I am saying we were very
8 young and very, very drunk. I know it is no real
9 excuse, but I couldn't even remember at the time.
10 Q. I am not asking you about being young and very drunk.
11 I am asking you: do you have in your mind, when you are
12 trying to assist the Inquiry which is seeking to find
13 out what happened this night, a picture when you say
14 that, "Such and such a person was there. I was in such
15 a position", do you have a clear picture of that at all?
16 A. No.
17 MR McCOMB: Thank you.
18 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one matter. One of the documents we saw
20 on the screen spoke of you as a young man, as we know,
21 18, who was tearful and embarrassed and apologised.
22 Some people might see that as a picture of a young man,
23 a decent young man, who was feeling guilty because he
24 dare not say more.
25 Would that be a fair reading of it?
131
1 A. It was like I said. When the police was -- I knew the
2 police didn't believe me at the time. They were putting
3 an awful pressure on me. There was nothing I could
4 really tell them.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: No further questions. Thank you. Thank you,
7 Mr Sinnamon.
8 A. Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today, sir.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, if it is convenient, I would
12 quite like to rise earlier for lunch tomorrow, say about
13 12.50 pm.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Certainly. Thank you very much.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 am.
16 (3.50 pm)
17 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am tomorrow morning)
18
19 --ooOoo--
20 I N D E X
21
22
MR WAYNE DAVID LUNT (sworn) ...................... 1
23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 29
24 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 33
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 39
25 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 58
Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD ....... 59
132
1
MS ANNE MURIEL BOWLES (sworn) .................... 60
2 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 60
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 72
3 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 76
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 77
4
MS ALISON ESTHER BOWLES (sworn) .................. 80
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 80
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 91
6 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 92
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 96
7
MR STEPHEN TREVOR SINNAMON ....................... 97
8 (affirmed)
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 97
9 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 118
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 120
10 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 130
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 131
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18
19
20
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24
25
133
