- - - - - - - - - - PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF ROBERT HAMILL - - - - - - - - - - Held at: Interpoint 20-24 York Street Belfast on Tuesday, 24th February 2009 commencing at 10.30 am Day 21 1 Tuesday, 24th February 2009 2 (10.30 am) 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, sir. I call Wayne Lunt, please. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 5 MR WAYNE DAVID LUNT (sworn) 6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 7 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Lunt. 8 A. Morning. 9 Q. My name is Underwood. I will be asking some questions 10 to start with. I know it catches you out when you 11 listen to a speaker. I will ask questions to start 12 with. Some other people may have some questions after 13 I have finished. All right? 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Can I ask you your full name please? 16 A. Wayne David Lunt. 17 Q. We are interested in the events of the early hours of 18 27th April 1997. I think you are aware of that. In 19 particular, what we want to know about from as many 20 witnesses as we can call is how fighting broke out, what 21 the police could have seen, and whether the police got 22 out of the Land Rover quickly enough to do anything to 23 help Mr Hamill, and then, once they did get out, what 24 they saw. So we are calling all the witnesses we can 25 find who were there on the night in the centre of 1 1 Portadown to ask them what they saw. 2 We are not interested in convicting anybody of 3 anything. As you know, in fact, there is immunity 4 against people being prosecuted on the basis of what 5 they say here. What I want to try to do is push your 6 memory as hard as I can for what you would have seen on 7 the night. All right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. First of all, I think before you went into town on 10 27th April, you were with some friends at 11 Michelle Jamieson's house. Is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I know you have been interviewed at great length about 14 all of this and what we see from the interviews is that 15 you had had quite a lot to drink that night. 16 A. That's correct, yes. 17 Q. Can you give us any idea what sort of state you were in 18 before you went into town? 19 A. I was quite drunk. 20 Q. I just want to get some idea of the practical effect of 21 that. If we have a look at page [06856] on the screen, 22 this is an interview you had with the police in 23 May 1997. They were testing your memory about what you 24 could recall of people wearing amongst the girls you 25 were with. Can I go through it with you to see if it 2 1 helps you get really clear just what you can remember 2 and how hazy it would be because of drink? 3 If you look at the bottom of [06856], the second 4 line from the bottom: 5 Question: "Can you remember what Heidi", that's 6 Heidi Reaney, "was wearing at all?" 7 Answer: "Heidi was wearing -- I know it was a checked [06857] 8 skirt." 9 Question: "Sorry?" 10 Answer: "I think so." 11 Question: "If you are not sure, don't worry about 12 it." 13 Answer: "No, I am not too sure what she was 14 wearing." 15 Question: "I'm just asking to see if you can." 16 Answer: "It probably was a checked skirt." 17 Question: "A checked shirt?" 18 Answer: "Aye, and tights." 19 Question: "What about a jacket?" 20 Answer: "I can't remember what type of jacket she 21 had on." 22 Question: "What about Michelle?" 23 That's Michelle Jamieson: 24 Answer: "Michelle? She was wearing jeans." [06858] 25 Question: "Can you remember what top she had on?" 3 1 Answer: "No." 2 Question: "Okay and then you say you met Lisa", 3 I think that's Lisa Hobson, "and Joanne", Bradley 4 I think: 5 Answer: "Yes." 6 Question: "And can you remember what Lisa had on?" 7 Answer: "Lisa was wearing a pair of black 8 hipsters. I don't know what type of top she had on, but 9 Joanne was wearing jeans." 10 Question: "Coats?" 11 Answer: "Well, they all had coats, but I don't 12 know what type of coats they were." 13 Question: "Colour? Were they like these bright 14 orange ones or --" 15 Answer: "No, black. Black-type colour. They were 16 nearly all black. I don't think Heidi had a coat on. 17 I'm not too sure now whether she had one or not." 18 So in that interview then you were able to give that 19 level of description of the clothing the girls were 20 wearing. Does that help you recall now just what sort 21 of state you were in? 22 A. No, not really, to be truthful. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: You were not a fashion editor. 24 A. No. 25 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we have a look at the map that was on the 4 1 screen when we started? We can see on the left-hand 2 side about halfway up there is West Street starting and 3 West Street goes towards the right into Market Street 4 into the junction there. 5 You were coming off from the left-hand side 6 somewhere, were you? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. If we have a look at a night model now, we can scroll 9 this round 360 degrees. Let's just do this to 10 familiarise you with the scene. This is how it was in 11 1997 with the street signs, etc. This is outside 12 Eastwoods. We are just about to look up toward the 13 church and West Street. This model has a Land Rover 14 that you will see here. So if we stop it there, if we 15 just go back to look at the church round to the left, 16 just pausing there, I think you, at various interviews 17 said you got as far as the summer seats -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- which we see, I think, where we see a road sign. The 20 summer seats are behind that, are they? 21 A. I can't really remember where they are. They would have 22 been in round the front of the church. 23 Q. Can you recall, when you got to the summer seats, what 24 was going on? When you got to the church, what was 25 going on? 5 1 A. I know there was a lot of people down in the centre of 2 the town. 3 Q. What about around the church? Were there many people 4 there? 5 A. Not that I can remember. 6 Q. Were you still with Heidi Reaney, Joanne Bradley, 7 Michelle Jamieson? 8 A. I can't remember, to be truthful. 9 Q. Okay. If we look at page [06870], if we take the bottom 10 third of it, you say: 11 Answer: "Aye. We were sitting there. We were 12 sitting there", this is at the summer seats, "like, for 13 about -- say it was about, I don't know, about five, 14 ten minutes we were sitting there, and the crowd 15 starting coming back." 16 So there you are talking about sitting with somebody 17 anyway at the summer seats and the crowd coming back up 18 towards West Street. Does that jog your memory? 19 A. No. I can't remember who was there, who all was there. 20 Q. We got statements from other people who were around the 21 summer seats we think probably around the same time as 22 you were there. 23 Some people say that while they were up by the 24 church and the summer seats area, they saw a fight or at 25 least something breaking out down by the junction and 6 1 people ran down towards it. 2 Do you have any recollection of that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. If we look at what Michelle Jamieson has to say and look 5 at page [09146] -- in fact, I can pick this up from the 6 final two lines on this page: 7 "There were loads of people running about and there 8 was shouting and screaming." 9 If we go over the page, [09147], first half: 10 "I heard things like, 'Come on then', 'Come ahead', 11 being shouted. I realised there was a fight going on 12 between Protestants and Catholics. I stayed at the 13 roundabout thing for a couple of minutes and during that 14 time I could hear bottles smashing. I walked on down 15 towards the crowd. I walked down the centre of the 16 street and then crossed over to the right-hand side of 17 the street. 18 "As I was doing so, I heard a woman screaming. She 19 had her hair in a bob. It was brown. She was wearing 20 a black jacket, I think. She was down on her knees over 21 a man who was lying on the street face downwards. He 22 was lying near to Eastwoods shop. She was screaming for 23 help and an ambulance." 24 So there is Michelle Jamieson, who you start off 25 with, seeing that, walking down or going down into the 7 1 town to get a closer look and seeing it very close by. 2 Again, any recollection of that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Is this the sort of thing that would have stuck in your 5 mind if you had seen it? 6 A. It's hard to remember anything from 12 years ago. 7 Q. Did you often see fights in the town? 8 A. Not often. They did occur. 9 Q. You can remember incidents, can you, in the town? 10 A. No. 11 Q. If we look at page [06826], this is back in your 12 interview. Just the last line of this, there is 13 a question in the last line: 14 Question: "Now, would it not be silly for you to 15 walk into [06827] something where you don't know", and the 16 policeman goes on, "what you were walking into, in case 17 you got a slap in the mouth?" 18 Answer: "Well, I was just going down to see." 19 Question: "Pardon?" 20 Answer: "That was a risk I was taking, wasn't it?" 21 Solicitor: "But there was police officers on the 22 scene?" 23 Answer: "Aye. There was police officers there. 24 There was Land Rovers and they were all out in the line. 25 I was just going down to see what was happening." 8 1 There in your interview with the police in May 1997 2 you are telling them that you walked down from the 3 summer seats or the church to see what was going on. 4 You saw police lined up. 5 What's your recollection of that? 6 A. I can remember a bit of shouting and that, so I did walk 7 down. I can remember seeing a couple of police. That's 8 about it. It's very vague. 9 Q. You remember that model we looked at had a police 10 Land Rover on it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. We can look at it again by all means, but do you 13 remember a Land Rover there? 14 A. I remember a Land Rover. I can't remember whereabouts 15 it was or where it was sitting. 16 Q. Any other police vehicles? 17 A. I think there was a police car that came up beside me. 18 Q. Where were you when that happened? 19 A. Walking down towards the centre of the town. 20 Q. So it came up -- when you say beside you, did it come 21 from behind you then? 22 A. I think it did come from behind me. Again, I am not 23 100% sure. 24 Q. How far had you got? Can you recall? 25 A. About halfway between the church and the junction to 9 1 Thomas Street. 2 Q. In that answer to the police there you are saying you 3 saw police -- you say: 4 "There was Land Rovers and they were all out in the 5 line." 6 Again, doing the best you can for us, police 7 officers on the street at that stage? 8 A. Yes, there was, yes. 9 Q. Now, let's deal with the police car that came up by you. 10 We know, of course, a woman police constable came up, 11 grabbed you and put you in the back of the Land Rover? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that the police car you are talking about? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What happened? What were you doing, just walking? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you have a bottle in your hand? 18 A. I did, yes. 19 Q. Was it empty? 20 A. Not that -- I really can't remember whether it was or 21 not. Well, it wouldn't have been empty because there 22 would have been stuff in it. That's the reason I would 23 have had it in my hand. 24 Q. If we look at page [00235], we can see a photograph 25 of -- this is the road sign I was showing you earlier on 10 1 from the night scene looked at from the other point of 2 view. Here you are looking down from the church end 3 towards the junction. This was taken the morning after 4 the incident with the police crime tape on it. You can 5 see that triangle of vegetation there. 6 If we then look at page [00236], there is a close-up 7 of it. There are a couple of bottles lying there. One 8 of those bottles was picked up afterwards and had your 9 fingerprints on. So we are assuming one of those was 10 the bottle you were carrying. 11 Can you recall what happened to the bottle? 12 A. No. 13 Q. The police constable has said in various statements that 14 when she saw you, you were carrying this bottle by the 15 neck. Would you agree with that? 16 A. I would, yes. 17 Q. In fact, the reason she has given for picking you up is 18 that she thought you were going towards the fight with 19 a bottle, holding it in a way that could have been used 20 as a weapon. Would you accept that? 21 A. No, I wasn't holding it that way. 22 Q. You have got a bottle there. Describe how you were 23 holding it. 24 A. If that was the bottle, like that. 25 Q. Overhand, if you like? 11 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. We also know what you were wearing, which included 3 a scarf, which was a Rangers scarf, I think. Is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 6 Q. Wrapped round your neck, and up? 7 A. It sits about here. 8 Q. Was that just by way of fashion or was there some 9 reason? 10 A. Yes, that's the way I wore my scarves. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: You show, what, across your mouth? 12 A. No, it sits just under the bottom lip on the chin. 13 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, I just want to put to you so you can 14 comment on it what the woman police officer said about 15 this. She took the view you were using the scarf 16 perhaps to hide your identity. 17 A. No, that's not true. 18 Q. Had you been picked up at Drumcree? 19 A. I had been, yes. 20 Q. Were you conscious that your photograph would be on 21 record somewhere? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Can we go back to page [06827]? Going back to this 24 passage we have already looked at in the middle of the 25 page, you say: 12 1 "Aye. There was police officers there. There was 2 Land Rovers and they were all out in the line." 3 Now, we know at some point police officers formed 4 a line and they were pushing people back up towards 5 West Street by using that police line. 6 Is that what you are describing there, or are you 7 just saying they were out in a line in some other way? 8 A. No, that's what I'm describing. 9 Q. Again, I just want to give you a chance to deal with 10 something that the woman police constable has said about 11 you. 12 She says on your way down to the crowd at the 13 junction you were running. What do you say about that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. We have looked at that statement of Michelle Jamieson's 16 and we can do it again, if you want. In it she 17 describes hearing bottles smashing. I am not suggesting 18 you smashed a bottle, but do you recall anybody else 19 doing that? 20 A. No, I can't remember hearing anything like that. 21 Q. Again, we have heard and seen various versions in 22 statements of sectarian abuse, fighting, small groups, 23 stand-offs between larger groups. 24 Can you describe, doing the best you can, what you 25 saw? 13 1 A. I really cannot remember. 2 Q. Can you give us any idea of numbers? 3 A. About 20, 30. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. It could have been more. 6 Q. Noise, do you recall that? 7 A. I'm sure there was a lot of shouting. If you get 8 a crowd of people, there's always going to be noise. 9 Q. Now, obviously you were arrested and you were 10 interviewed on the basis of an allegation that was made 11 against you by Mr Prunty. He was saying that he had 12 seen you involved in it, and, when you were let out of 13 the Land Rover, he had a go at you, because he recalled 14 you as being one of those involved. 15 You know about that in general, I think. 16 A. Generally, but ... 17 Q. Let me put to you -- he has already given evidence to 18 us, you see. As a matter of fairness, what I want you 19 to do is have a chance to see what he said so we can get 20 your views on it. 21 What we have is the transcript of the evidence he 22 has given to us. That was given on 21st January 2009. 23 If we could have that up on the screen from page 118. 24 In fact, I think it is 119. If we pick this up at 25 line 13, this is a question I asked him: 14 1 "Question: You see, here what you say in it -- and I 2 bear in mind this is a statement you made to the police 3 and they may have or may not have put words in your 4 mouth -- is: 5 "'By this stage', and this is the stage at which 6 Mr Hamill is being kicked, "'the police had got out ... 7 and were over at the crowd. There was either two 8 policemen and one woman or three policemen and a woman. 9 They ran in to try to stop it. One of the policemen 10 actually pulled me back, and, as he was doing this, 11 I saw another policeman grab hold of one of the fellas 12 in the group that was kicking Robert Hamill.' 13 "What you have told the police there is that the 14 police on the scene got out, intervened and actually 15 pulled one of the fellows in the group that was kicking 16 Mr Hamill out. 17 "Answer: Yes. 18 "Question: Was that accurate then? 19 "Answer: Yes. 20 "Question: Just to move on, this one you go on to 21 talk about one of the fellows in the group that was 22 kicking Robert Hamill: 23 "'He was wearing a Rangers scarf and he was took 24 away and put in the back of the Land Rover. He, like 25 everybody else in the group, was kicking Robert, he was 15 1 definitely kicking him but I can't say where'. 2 "Now, I just want to be as clear as I possibly can 3 about this man with the scarf. Never mind what he 4 looked like or anything. What I am interested in is 5 what he was doing. 6 "You saw him kicking or in the group that was 7 kicking at Mr Hamill. Was he pulled out from that group 8 by the policeman or policewoman, whichever it was, or 9 was he picked up by a policeman or policewoman after he 10 had stopped kicking, or can't you remember? 11 "Answer: I think he was pulled out, but I can't be 12 sure. 13 "Question: Pulled out while he was doing it? 14 "Answer: Yes." 15 So what he is saying there is the person wearing 16 a Rangers scarf is kicking or in the group kicking 17 Mr Hamill. He was pulled out by the police. 18 Now, did you get involved in a group kicking at 19 Mr Hamill? 20 A. No, no. 21 Q. Were you pulled out by the police from a group? 22 A. No. 23 Q. If we go on here, line 24, I go on to say at line 25 24 there: 25 "Question: To keep a track on what happened to that 16 1 person, this is a man who you say was wearing a Rangers 2 scarf, taken away and put in the back of the Land Rover. 3 There came a point, we know, when he was let out of the 4 Land Rover or a man was let out of the back of the 5 Land Rover. 6 "Ms McCoy told us this morning that you and she at 7 that stage had moved over to the Alliance & Leicester 8 and you saw a policewoman letting somebody out of the 9 back of the Land Rover. Do you recall that? 10 "Answer: Yes. 11 "Question: Were you by the Alliance & Leicester by 12 that point? 13 "Answer: Yes. 14 "Question: What had happened? Had you got 15 Ms McCoy away? 16 "Answer: Yes, I got Maureen away. 17 "Question: By that stage then, had things settled 18 down a bit? 19 "Answer: Yes. 20 "Question: At the Land Rover, were there any other 21 police officers? Do you remember? 22 "Answer: No. 23 "Question: Right. So you had a WPC letting the 24 man out of the back of the Land Rover? 25 "Answer: Yes. 17 1 "Question: Do you think it is the same man you saw 2 being picked up with the Rangers scarf? 3 "Answer: Yes. 4 "Question: Did you see any more than one person 5 with a Rangers scarf that night?" 6 Now did you see anybody else with a scarf like that? 7 A. Not that I can remember. 8 Q. I go on with the questioning: 9 "Question: What did you do when you saw him being 10 let out of the back? 11 "Answer: I went over to the policewoman, who was 12 in the back of the Land Rover, and said, 'What are you 13 letting him go for? Make sure you get his name'. 14 "Question: Could you have gone further than that 15 and said, 'What are you letting him go for? He is one 16 of those that did it'? 17 "Answer: Yes. 18 "Question: Maureen McCoy told us this morning you 19 were very angry by this point. Was that fair? 20 "Answer: Yes. 21 "Question: Angry at the Protestants or angry at 22 the police or just angry? 23 "Answer: Just angry at what had happened. 24 "Question: Some time later in the Inquiry we will 25 hear evidence from a policewoman who says she was the 18 1 officer who let a person out of the back of the 2 Land Rover. I think what she will say is that two men 3 approached her and asked her what she was doing that 4 for, because that was one of the men that had done it. 5 Was there anybody else there apart from you and 6 Maureen McCoy? 7 "Answer: Definitely not. 8 "Question: While the man was in the back of the 9 Land Rover, did he say anything? 10 "Answer: He was just smirking. 11 "Question: Looking back at your statement that you 12 made for the Inquiry ... you say: 13 "'He was inside the Land Rover being aggressive, 14 making fun of what had happened and saying 'Fenian 15 bastards'." 16 "Do you recall that now or do you just recall him 17 smirking? 18 "Answer: Yes. I remember him saying, 'Fenian 19 bastards'. 20 "Question: You go on to say, the final two 21 sentences: 22 "'I was in a bad temper so I swung at him while he 23 was inside the vehicle'." 24 "That's still your memory of it, is it? 25 "Answer: Yes." 19 1 So here we have a person in a Rangers scarf. He has 2 only seen one person in a Rangers scarf pulled out, put 3 in the Land Rover. You went in the Land Rover, didn't 4 you, with a Rangers scarf? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you see anybody else in the Land Rover? 7 A. No. 8 Q. When the person with the Rangers scarf is released from 9 the Land Rover, he comes along and has a go at the woman 10 police officer. Was it a woman that let you out? 11 A. I can't remember, because I think there were two police 12 officers in the back. There was a policewoman that 13 arrested me. I am sure she was in the back of the 14 Land Rover. 15 Q. The policewoman also checked on your address, I think. 16 A. Yes, she took my details. 17 Q. When you were getting out of the Land Rover, did 18 anything like this happen? 19 A. Not that I can remember. 20 Q. Were you smirking? 21 A. No. I had just been arrested. 22 Q. I am sorry? 23 A. I had just been arrested. 24 Q. Were you being aggressive? 25 A. No. 20 1 Q. Were you saying things like, "Fenian bastards"? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did anybody have a swing at you? 4 A. Not that I can remember, no. 5 Q. It is the sort of thing that would stick in your mind, 6 isn't it? 7 A. It is 12 years ago. 8 Q. Were you asked whether you would consent to go on 9 an identity parade after you were arrested? 10 A. I can't remember. 11 Q. Can you recall anything about the man who had a go at 12 the police officer when you were released? 13 A. No. 14 Q. When you got out, I think you stayed around the area 15 until about 3 o'clock. Is that right? 16 A. I can't remember that. 17 Q. I can help you. If we look at page [06831], at the top 18 there is an allegation made that when the policewoman 19 was taking you to the Land Rover, you had a kick at her. 20 You say at the top: 21 Answer: "Well, if I went to kick her, why didn't 22 she put in a complaint in against me that night? Why 23 didn't she arrest me for assaulting a police officer? 24 She didn't arrest me at all." 25 Policeman: "Well, I mean, the simple answer to that 21 1 was there was an affray. There was a lot of people. 2 There was a fight going on and they hadn't the manpower 3 to deal with you then and there." 4 Answer: "Well, why didn't she come after me when 5 it was all over? I seen her when I was going to the 6 taxi base when I was going to get my taxi. She was 7 taking care of a road accident." 8 Now, because we have had lots of time and lots of 9 documents, we have been able to work out that she was 10 dealing with a road accident at about 3 o'clock. So 11 when you went to get your taxi nearby, that would have 12 been roughly an hour later. 13 Can you help us on what you did afterwards, what you 14 saw? 15 A. I can't remember, but I know I had to walk the long way 16 around the town, because I lived on the other side of 17 town. So instead of going through the centre, I would 18 have had to walk the whole way around. 19 Q. Right. If we look at page [06819], still part of the 20 interview you had with the police, in the second line at 21 the top there they are asking you about what you saw 22 when you got out of the Land Rover, I think: 23 Question: "Did you see anybody lying on the ground?" 24 Answer: "Yes. I seen him lying there when I got 25 out of the Land Rover when I was going home. I have to 22 1 go through the town to get home and the only way I could 2 go was round the long route and I seen him lying there 3 whenever I got out of the Land Rover. That's the only 4 time." 5 You are asked whether you kicked him, that's 6 Mr Hamill, when you did that, and you deny that. 7 Can you help us with what you saw when you got out 8 of the Land Rover? 9 A. No. I can't remember at all. 10 Q. Can you recall, with the aid of this, seeing anybody on 11 the ground? 12 A. I can remember seeing someone lying on the ground, yes. 13 Q. Can you recall what they were wearing? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Can you recall where they were -- 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- or whether anybody was with them, comforting them or 18 anything like that -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- or treating them? 21 A. No. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: At which stage was that in relation to your 23 getting out of the Land Rover that you saw this man 24 lying on the ground? 25 A. Just after I got out of the Land Rover. 23 1 MR UNDERWOOD: Going back to Michelle Jamieson's statement 2 if we look at [9147], I have already taken you to the 3 first third or so of this where we get to a point where 4 Michelle Jamieson describes a person lying near to 5 Eastwoods shop. 6 Four lines down in this part she describes a woman 7 with her hair in a bob: 8 "She was screaming for help and an ambulance. 9 I kept looking at the man all the time. I walked over 10 to the woman and the man. The woman said, 'There's no 11 point in it', to me. I knelt down and listened to his 12 breathing. He sounded as if he couldn't get any air." 13 Of course, you may have been in the Land Rover at 14 the time, but can you help us whether you saw 15 Michelle Jamieson anywhere round there? 16 A. No, I can't remember that. 17 Q. We can look at it, if you like, but what we have is 18 a radio log from the police Land Rover to the base, 19 which shows the conversation that the woman police 20 officer had with base about confirming your address. 21 That shows that you were in the Land Rover between 1.55 22 that night and 2.02. We know that the ambulance arrived 23 at 1.58 and left at 2.02. We know that the ambulance 24 had come and gone while you were in the Land Rover. 25 Did you get any impression of the ambulance? Did 24 1 you see blue flashing lights, hear sirens? 2 A. Not that I can remember, no. 3 Q. Then, if we can look at page [06843], please, you are 4 being asked here in your interview with the police about 5 what you did when you got out of the Land Rover? 6 I have already asked you, of course, what you were 7 doing in it. Here you are being pressed about what 8 might have happened directly afterwards. You start at 9 the top by saying: 10 Answer: "I know, but I didn't shout anything." 11 Question: "You didn't?" 12 Answer: "No. There was a fella standing behind 13 the Land Rover near Woodhouse Street. He shouted 14 something at me and I turned round, and the next thing 15 there was six cops pushing me into the shutter." 16 Question: "What did he shout at you? Do you know?" 17 Answer: "I don't know what he shouted at me." 18 I just turned round. Probably something. I don't know, 19 like, what he was trying to say." 20 Solicitor: "Sorry, six policemen did what?" 21 Answer: "Pushed me into a shutter." 22 Question: "What shutter?" 23 Answer: "It was -- as you are going up -- as 24 you're coming down, it was on the right-hand side, so it 25 would have been -- if you are coming down here or 25 1 something." 2 Question: "So you actually crossed from the 3 left-hand side of the street after you were --" 4 Answer: "Yes, after the Land Rover, I went over 5 that way and walked up. 6 Solicitor: Is that near Dorothy Perkins?" 7 Answer: "Yes, it would be, aye." 8 Question: "I have a photograph of the area. 9 Solicitor: So the six policemen pushed you into 10 that shutter?" 11 Answer: "Yes." 12 Now, can you recall this incident? 13 A. I can't recall it, no. 14 Q. What were you talking about there in terms of crossing 15 the road? Was this from the Woodhouse Street side of 16 the junction across to the Thomas Street side? 17 A. Yes, it would have been, yes. 18 Q. Can you recall where Dorothy Perkins was? Was that on 19 the Thomas Street side? 20 A. I think it was on the Thomas Street side, yes. 21 Q. There you are obviously describing something to do with 22 six policemen who were either protecting you or stopping 23 you from doing something. Can you help us on that at 24 all? 25 A. I can't remember. 26 1 Q. Then if we go to [09103], this is the original police 2 statement of Mr Prunty. About just over halfway down 3 that, if we look here, about four lines, five 4 lines down: 5 "They were still shouting 'Fenian bastards', things 6 like that. After five or ten minutes I saw the fella 7 with the Rangers scarf being let out of the back of the 8 Land Rover. He went back into the crowd shouting, 'Up 9 the UV', which I knew to be the UVF." 10 Is that the sort of thing you shouted in those days? 11 A. I can't remember shouting that. 12 Q. Were you a UVF supporter? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you recall other people shouting that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was there still a crowd there to go into when you got 17 out of the Land Rover? 18 A. I can't remember. I know there was a few people there, 19 yes. I know the police were still there trying to 20 disperse the crowd, trying to get them back up the town. 21 Q. Can we go back to the map? We can focus in, I think, on 22 the junction. We have the Land Rover really at the 23 mouth of Woodhouse Street. You have just told us that, 24 when you were let out of it, you crossed over to the 25 Thomas Street side. Where would you have had to go to 27 1 get home walking the long way round? 2 A. I would have had to have went back up towards 3 St Mark's Church. 4 Q. Uh-huh. 5 A. There is a street on the left-hand side. I would have 6 walked down that way. 7 Q. Is that William Street or further down? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I see. So were there people up there, I mean, not in 10 William Street, but were there people further along the 11 High Street/Market Street? 12 A. Yes, there would have been in around the front of the 13 church and that. There would have still been people 14 there, yes. 15 Q. You told us that when you arrived in the first place, 16 police were out in a line and were moving people back up 17 towards Market Street. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. We obviously know you were in the back of a Land Rover 20 for quite some minutes. Had things changed very much by 21 the time you got out? 22 A. I really can't remember. 23 Q. Mr Lunt, you know how important this is, of course. We 24 are investigating in great detail the actions of the 25 police on the night -- 28 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- and whether they did everything they could. We are 3 trying to piece together as best we can. 4 Is there anything you can recall that you think 5 might help us that I haven't asked you about? 6 A. No. 7 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. You will be 8 asked some more questions. 9 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON 10 MR FERGUSON: Mr Lunt, you said you had been picked up at 11 Drumcree. 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. How long prior to the end of April had you been picked 14 up at Drumcree? 15 A. I can't remember that at all. I couldn't say exactly 16 when. 17 Q. Well, can you say what you were doing when you were 18 picked up at Drumcree? 19 A. Probably getting involved in what was happening. 20 Q. In what way were you getting involved? 21 A. It just depends. I really can't remember what I was 22 doing at that time. 23 Q. Can you not? 24 A. No. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it at the time of the Drumcree march? 29 1 A. Yes, it would have been, yes. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's about 12th July, isn't it? 3 MR FERGUSON: It should have been, yes. I am not going to 4 get into the minutiae of Drumcree -- the Tribunal has 5 enough to trouble themselves with -- basically, the 6 problem was that the Protestant community, or 7 a number thereof, were prevented from marching on 8 Drumcree. Is that right? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. You were there protesting against that? 11 A. Yes, I would have been. 12 Q. Obviously there were army people present, were there? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. But also members of the RUC? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were you hostile to the RUC because of what they were 17 preventing you doing at Drumcree? 18 A. I could have well been. I can't remember. 19 Q. Pardon? 20 A. I could have well been, but I can't remember. 21 Q. Are you serious about that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You can't remember? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Were you among a number of Protestants who were 30 1 demonstrating at Drumcree, attempting to cause trouble 2 at Drumcree? 3 A. I can't remember how many people were there. There were 4 thousands of people. 5 Q. Yes. But whatever happened at Drumcree, without going 6 into the detail, did that leave an animosity, a feeling 7 of hatred on the part of the Protestant community, or 8 a large part of it, towards the RUC? 9 A. I can't speak for everyone. 10 Q. Just speak for yourself then. 11 A. No, not really. 12 Q. You didn't mind? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You didn't resent the fact that the RUC had prevented 15 you from exercising what you would have regarded as your 16 right to march in that area? 17 A. At the time probably. Again, I can't remember. 18 Q. But probably at the time that would have been your frame 19 of mind? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did that frame of mind then continue up until the night 22 of the incident about which we are now speaking? 23 A. No. 24 Q. It didn't? Was there resentment on the part of a large 25 proportion of the Protestant community towards the RUC 31 1 as a result of Drumcree? 2 A. Not on my part, no. 3 Q. Not on your part? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You didn't mind that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You didn't resent the fact that they were standing in 8 your way? 9 A. Again, at the time, probably, but I can't remember. 10 MR FERGUSON: Very well. 11 MR McGRORY: If you please, sir, I have an application 12 I would like to make. I think the nature of the 13 application would require the Tribunal to sit in 14 chambers or in camera, so to speak. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: We will just rise while things are set up. 16 MR UNDERWOOD: I think that takes about fifteen minutes. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 18 (11.12 am) 19 (In camera proceedings) 20 (1.30 pm) 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Your examination-in-chief had finished, 22 I think. 23 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, it has. 24 MR FERGUSON: I have finished. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair? 32 1 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR 2 MR ADAIR: I have a few questions, Mr Lunt, in relation to 3 what you were wearing. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me for interrupting you. 5 I should have said I didn't have a closed session to 6 announce our decision in view of what the decision was, 7 but it seems to us appropriate to allow the application. 8 It seems to us to be relevant to an issue between the 9 witness and Mr Prunty. 10 It is not appropriate to say more at this stage, 11 because we have not yet come to the stage of deciding 12 where the truth lies about anything. 13 MR ADAIR: I understand. I think Mr McGrory will be dealing 14 with that, as he raised the issue, sir. 15 Mr Lunt, you were wearing amongst other things the 16 scarf. I want to know what way you had the scarf. You 17 describe in your Inquiry statement that you had the 18 scarf rolled up over your mouth. Is that right? 19 A. Yes, the bottom lip here. 20 Q. About your bottom lip? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were you also wearing a hat? 23 A. I was, yes. 24 Q. Was that a baseball-type hat, a peaked hat? 25 A. It was a peaked hat. 33 1 THE CHAIRMAN: With the peak at the front? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR ADAIR: You were not wearing it back to front with the 4 peak out the back? 5 A. (Witness shakes head). 6 Q. Then you had some white clothing on. Is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So what one could see of your face was your forehead, 9 your eyes and your nose and the top part of your mouth? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. At that time you had black hair, as we have seen from 12 the picture. Is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It looked to be relatively short. Is that right? 15 A. Yes, it would have been. 16 Q. In the picture we saw -- I don't know whether it is 17 possible to -- I can't remember the numbers. Is it 18 possible in the meantime to bring it up? You seemed to 19 have something of a slight growth above your lip. Was 20 that just at the time of the photograph or is that the 21 way you normally wear it? 22 A. That would have -- no, I normally would have had that, 23 yes. 24 Q. You normally had some growth above your lip? 25 A. Yes, yes. 34 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have the photographs available? 2 I think you would like them up, wouldn't you, Mr Adair? 3 [75201] Yes, here we are. 4 MR ADAIR: We can see that this is taken on 11th May of 5 1997, it would appear from the date on the photograph. 6 So that's pretty much the way you looked -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- at the end of April, the night of this incident? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know Mr Forbes? 11 A. Not personally, no. 12 Q. Did you know him at the time? 13 A. No. 14 Q. We can't see the back of your head there. Was your hair 15 short at the back or long at the back? 16 A. Short. 17 Q. So would you have been able to see any of your hair at 18 the back if you were wearing a cap? 19 A. Well, the cap would have came to about the middle of the 20 head. So whatever was underneath that, yes. 21 Q. Now, I just want to ask you briefly about what you saw 22 that night in the town centre. 23 Do I understand that you saw a crowd and then went 24 down towards it? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 35 1 Q. Was there something that drew you to the crowd? Was 2 there something they were doing or saying or -- what was 3 happening that drew you down to them? 4 A. Just lots of shouting and stuff. 5 Q. Shouting and stuff. Did you run down towards the crowd? 6 A. No, not that I can remember. 7 Q. Pardon? 8 A. Not that I can remember, no. 9 Q. I suggest to you that you were running down towards the 10 crowd and that there will be evidence heard by the 11 Tribunal from the lady police officer who ultimately 12 arrested you that you were running down towards the 13 crowd. Might that be right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. I suggest to you that you were holding the bottle upside 16 down that you had with you when you were running down 17 towards the crowd. 18 What I am reading into that, from her statement -- 19 we will hear from her in due course -- is that that was 20 in an aggressive way. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you -- just stopping there for 23 a second, you were asked a couple of times by my learned 24 friend Mr Underwood about what police you saw. At one 25 stage you described seeing a couple of police. 36 1 Do you remember saying that? Do you remember saying 2 that to the Inquiry this morning? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was it at the point that you were running down to the 5 crowd that you saw the police? 6 THE CHAIRMAN: That's two questions in one. 7 MR ADAIR: When did you see the couple of police? 8 A. When I was walking down to the crowd. 9 Q. When you were walking down to the crowd? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were the police amongst the crowd? 12 A. I really can't remember what position they were in, no. 13 Q. At that stage, had the fighting started? 14 A. I really can't say. 15 Q. Pardon? 16 A. I can't say. I can't remember. 17 Q. Had you made your way down towards the crowd immediately 18 on hearing the shouting and realising there was 19 something happening? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. You then described again this morning a stage of seeing 22 a line of policemen. Do you remember telling us about 23 that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who were pushing the crowd back, were they? 37 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 Q. Was that after the fighting had occurred? 3 A. I presume so. I really can't remember. 4 Q. You do agree that you ran away when the lady police 5 officer tried to stop you -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- as you were making your way down to the crowd? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Why was that? 10 A. Because I didn't want to be arrested. 11 Q. Why would you be arrested? 12 A. I'm sure I really don't know. There was a lot of stuff 13 going on in town at that time. 14 Q. Why would you be arrested if you were simply walking 15 down to the crowd? 16 A. Well, she jumped out and came towards me. 17 Q. So you were, according to you, doing nothing in your 18 movement or your actions to -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- cause any police person to be apprehensive about you? 21 A. No, apart from having the clothes I was wearing and the 22 bottle in my hand. 23 Q. You do agree then, I take it, that later on you were 24 again arrested by this same police officer -- 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 38 1 Q. -- and taken to the Land Rover? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. She will say that you were kicking out with your feet at 4 her. You don't remember whether you did that or not? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Are you not able to help this Inquiry at all as to the 7 circumstances of the assault upon Mr Hamill or D? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you simply not see anything? 10 A. I didn't see anything at all. 11 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you. 12 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, I have some questions. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory? 14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY 15 MR McGRORY: Mr Lunt, I am going to ask you some questions 16 on behalf of the Hamill family. I think you are aware 17 of that from the previous application. 18 Let me just clarify, first of all, what we are 19 agreed upon. We are agreed that you had a lot of drink 20 taken that night. Isn't that correct? 21 A. Yes, that is correct. 22 Q. Is it fair to say you had already consumed a bottle of 23 Buckfast wine and were on your second? 24 A. Yes, that's correct. 25 Q. In fact, earlier in the evening, having finished your 39 1 first bottle of Buckfast, you had sent out in a taxi for 2 a second bottle. Isn't that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That was, of course, before you left the premises that 5 you were in before going down into town. Isn't that 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So it would be reasonable to assume that you had 9 a reasonable amount of the second bottle consumed by the 10 time these events happened? 11 A. I can't say how much I had out of the second bottle. 12 I can't remember whether it was a bit or a lot. 13 Q. Somebody made an observation that you might have been 14 sick on the street. Do you remember that? 15 A. I can't remember it, no. 16 Q. But at any event, you are happy to say you had a fair 17 amount of drink taken? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The other issue on which we are agreed is that you were 20 wearing a Rangers scarf. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You know of nobody else who was wearing a Rangers scarf? 23 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 24 Q. Do you accept you were carrying the bottle of Buckfast, 25 that's the second bottle? 40 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Indeed, a bottle was recovered later and your 3 fingerprint was found on it and you accepted to the 4 police that was most likely the bottle you were 5 carrying. Isn't that right? 6 A. I didn't know anything about the fingerprints on the 7 bottle until I received the paperwork from the Inquiry. 8 Q. Do you accept that must have been the bottle you were 9 carrying? 10 A. Well, if my fingerprints was on the bottle, obviously, 11 yes. 12 Q. Unless, of course, you lifted another bottle. 13 A. No. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know about where the prints were on 15 the bottle? 16 MR McGRORY: I am afraid we don't seem to have that 17 information. I did look for information like that, 18 Mr Chairman, when I was looking through the papers, but 19 it is something we can raise, perhaps, with the Inquiry. 20 MR UNDERWOOD: We will be hearing from the forensic officer 21 who found the prints. He may be able to help us. 22 I don't think on the material we have we can take it any 23 further. 24 MR McGRORY: Of course, you accept that you ran away from 25 Constable A. Isn't that correct? 41 1 A. Yes, that is correct. 2 Q. Now, the reason you have given for running 3 away from Constable A, Mr Lunt, is that you were afraid 4 of being arrested. 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 6 Q. You have said I think in your Inquiry statement that you 7 had already been in trouble in the past, not for 8 fighting, but after Drumcree. Isn't that correct? 9 A. Yes, that is correct. 10 Q. Now, Mr Ferguson, before lunch, asked you some questions 11 about the circumstances in which you were arrested after 12 Drumcree. Do you remember those questions? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You weren't able to tell us very much. I will just read 15 the exchange to you. If anyone else wishes to locate 16 it, it is on page 28 of today's evidence at line 24: 17 Mr Ferguson said: 18 "Question: Mr Lunt, you said you had been picked up 19 at Drumcree. 20 "Answer: Yes, that's correct. 21 "Question: How long prior to the end of April had 22 you been picked up at Drumcree? 23 "Answer: I can't remember that at all. I couldn't 24 say exactly when." 25 Do you remember giving that answer this morning? 42 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The next question was: 3 "Question: Well, can you say what you were doing 4 when you were picked up at Drumcree? 5 "Answer: Probably getting involved in what was 6 happening." 7 Do you remember that answer? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were then asked: 10 "Question: In what way were you getting involved? 11 "Answer: It just depends. I really can't remember 12 what I was doing at that time." 13 A. Yes, that's correct. 14 Q. Is that still your memory? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Could I have page 3 on the screen, please? Now, are you 17 seriously telling this Inquiry, Mr Lunt, that you had no 18 memory as to what sort of trouble you had been in at 19 Drumcree? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. No idea? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You didn't tell this Inquiry, either at interview or 24 today that, in fact, you were convicted of an offence 25 arising out of an incident at Drumcree, did you? 43 1 A. No, it wasn't brought up. I didn't need to delve into 2 my past. 3 Q. Well, when you spoke to the Inquiry a couple of years 4 ago, you gave a fairly similar answer. Isn't that 5 correct? 6 A. I can't remember what answer I gave, no. 7 Q. Mr Ferguson asked you, "How long before April 1997 were 8 you in trouble at Drumcree?" and you said you couldn't 9 remember. 10 There are two entries on this. This is a criminal 11 record on the screen, your criminal record. Do you 12 understand? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The first entry is a conviction arising out of 15 an incident on 10th July 1995. Do you observe that? 16 A. I do, yes. 17 Q. You were convicted on 10th April 1996 of the offence of 18 riotous behaviour. Do you remember that? 19 A. Well, I can't remember. Obviously if it is there on the 20 screen, yes, I have been convicted for it, but I can't 21 remember, no. 22 Q. Are you suggesting to this Inquiry that when you were 23 asked about why you were running away from Constable A, 24 are you seriously suggesting it was only some vague sort 25 of thing about Drumcree? 44 1 A. No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying I didn't 2 want to be arrested. 3 Q. But you knew very well you had a conviction at this 4 stage for riotous behaviour? 5 A. At that stage probably, but it probably didn't come into 6 my mind. I really can't remember what I was thinking at 7 that time. 8 Q. When Mr Ferguson asked you how long before, you know 9 very well it was a year and a half before. Isn't that 10 correct? 11 A. It must have been, yes. It's there. 12 Q. But my question -- 13 A. I didn't know at that time, no. 14 Q. -- is: you knew very well that in the Drumcree, not the 15 previous Drumcree, but the one before that, you got 16 a conviction in Craigavon Juvenile Court for riotous 17 behaviour? 18 A. At the time, no, it didn't come into my head, no. 19 Q. It is not something you would forget, is it? 20 A. Well, obviously I have forgotten about it now. It was 21 a long time ago. 22 Q. It was your first criminal conviction by the looks of 23 it. Is that correct? 24 A. It must have been, yes. 25 Q. To be brought before a Juvenile Court would be a fairly 45 1 memorable thing. Would you not agree? 2 A. Not if -- it is not something I would be thinking about 3 on a daily basis. 4 Q. You didn't say to the Inquiry or Mr Ferguson, "There is 5 a reason why I can't go into any detail there", did you? 6 A. Sorry? 7 Q. You didn't put forward that the reason for not 8 disclosing your conviction for riotous behaviour, that 9 that was not something you had to tell about, did you? 10 A. I didn't think of it. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: That supposes a certain degree of 12 sophistication about proceedings, doesn't it? 13 MR McGRORY: Pardon, sir? 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it presupposes a certain 15 sophistication of his knowledge about proceedings; 16 knowing that he need not answer. 17 MR McGRORY: Well, that's the answer he gave to me when 18 I suggested he was not truthful. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know. Yes. 20 MR McGRORY: So I am suggesting so you that you were simply 21 holding back. Isn't that correct? 22 A. No, it is not. I wasn't holding back. 23 Q. Because, in fact, I am going to suggest to you that the 24 reason why you ran away from Constable A is not that you 25 had some vague notion that you had been in trouble 46 1 before, you knew very well you had a previous conviction 2 for riotous behaviour. Isn't that correct? 3 A. No, it is not. 4 Q. You also knew that what Constable A had seen you do -- 5 MR UNDERWOOD: I wonder if I could ask my learned friend to 6 bear in mind the redaction policy from time to time. 7 MR McGRORY: I seem to have a mental block about that one. 8 I am so sorry, sir. 9 You also knew that what Constable A had seen you do 10 could lead to another conviction for riotous behaviour. 11 Isn't that correct? 12 A. No. I wasn't thinking about that at the time. 13 Q. There is no reason why you would have run away other 14 than that. Isn't that correct? 15 A. No. The reason I ran away is because I didn't want to 16 be arrested. 17 Q. I suggest to you Constable A did not run after you and 18 arrest you because you had previously been in trouble. 19 A. No. 20 Q. That wouldn't be a good enough reason for a police 21 constable to go after you, sure it wouldn't? 22 A. It could have well been. I don't know what she was 23 thinking or what was happening. 24 Basically, I did not run away because of my previous 25 convictions. They didn't even occur to me at that time. 47 1 Q. But that's the reason you have given this Inquiry, that 2 you thought that because you had been in trouble at 3 Drumcree, you needed to get offside. Isn't that 4 correct? 5 A. No, I didn't want to be arrested at that time, at that 6 night. 7 Q. But if you weren't doing anything wrong, why would she 8 arrest you? 9 A. Why did she come running towards me in the first place? 10 Q. That's the question. What I am suggesting to you is she 11 came running towards you because you were running into 12 the crowd with a bottle turned upside down -- 13 A. No. 14 Q. -- in a threatening manner. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Now, Mr Ferguson also asked you a few questions just 17 about your general attitude to the police arising out of 18 your concerns about Drumcree. Do you remember those 19 questions? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do we take it you were protesting at Drumcree for 22 a reason? 23 A. Yes. At the time, yes. 24 Q. And that the reason you were protesting at Drumcree is 25 you, like many people, were upset that the march wasn't 48 1 being allowed through? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. You regard it as the right of the Orange Order to march 4 through Drumcree? 5 A. That's correct, yes. 6 Q. And that the Catholic population of Garvaghy Road do not 7 have a right to object to the march going through 8 Drumcree? 9 A. Not that they don't have a right to object. Everybody 10 has a right to object. 11 Q. Yes, but that their objections should not have been 12 sustained or upheld. Do you understand that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So you would have a problem with the fact that if the 15 Catholics demanded that the march be stopped, that that 16 was an unwelcome development? 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 Q. So do you have a difficulty with Catholics generally, 19 Mr Lunt? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Could I have page [72045], please, on the screen? The 22 top half of the page, if that could be highlighted. 23 Now, this is difficult to read, this document, 24 because it is handwritten, Mr Lunt, but it is a record 25 of an arrest on 6th March 1997. 49 1 Do you remember being arrested on 6th March 1997? 2 A. No. 3 Q. That is only about six or seven weeks prior to this 4 incident. Isn't that correct? 5 A. It would have been, yes. 6 Q. You have no memory of that whatsoever? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Well, this is the police record of why you were 9 arrested. It says: 10 "Circumstances of arrest". 11 At the bottom half of this half of the page. Do you 12 see that: 13 "Details of the circumstances and grounds for the 14 arrest must be included together with the name of the 15 officer supplying the information." 16 Can you see that bit? 17 A. Yes, I can. 18 Q. Now I suggest to you what this says is: 19 "Singing songs - shouting about Bobby Sands - singing 20 sectarian songs." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. I can't read it. I can't understand the writing, 23 but ... 24 Q. Do you accept that's what it says -- 25 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 50 1 Q. -- that, six or seven weeks before this incident, you 2 were arrested for singing sectarian songs? Do you 3 remember that now? 4 A. No, I don't remember it at all. 5 Q. You have no memory of that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Are you saying that that wasn't uppermost in your mind 8 when Constable A came after you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Because I am suggesting to you that you were engaging in 11 similar behaviour and that's why Constable A came 12 after you. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Sorry. That's why Constable A came after you. 15 A. No. 16 Q. You don't accept that at all? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Could I have page 3 back on the screen, please? You 19 see, on 24th October 1997, a few months after this 20 incident, you were convicted again. Do you remember 21 that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You were convicted of disorderly behaviour. Do you 24 remember that? That's the second entry, the lower part 25 of the page? 51 1 A. Yes, I'm reading it, but I can't remember it. 2 Q. Are you saying you have no memory of this conviction 3 whatsoever? 4 A. Not at that time, no, no. 5 Q. You were convicted of assault on police. You have no 6 memory of that? 7 A. No, I can't remember the incident at all. 8 Q. Can I have page [72104] on the screen, please? The top 9 half of the page, please, would be helpful. 10 This is a record, Mr Lunt, of your bail conditions 11 when you were released on bail on 6th March 1997, some 12 six or seven weeks before this incident. 13 Do you remember being released on bail only six 14 weeks before the night of 27th April? 15 A. No. 16 Q. No memory at all? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know what being released on bail means by the 19 police? 20 A. If you are released on bail, obviously if you are seen 21 doing any trouble, you can be arrested. 22 Q. That's correct. 23 A. You are bailed basically to appear until the date you 24 appear. 25 Q. Do you see the signature at the bottom of that page? 52 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that your signature? 3 A. It is, yes. 4 Q. You see you were bailed on the sum of the surety of 5 £200? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That would have been a considerable sum at that time to 8 you, wouldn't it? 9 A. It would have, yes. 10 Q. Now, are you seriously suggesting that when Constable A 11 leapt out of the car and approached you, that you didn't 12 have that very much in your mind? 13 A. No, it didn't even occur to me. 14 Q. It didn't even occur to you? 15 A. Not that I can remember, but it definitely did not occur 16 to me about that. 17 Q. You didn't think, "Oh, my goodness. I am going to be 18 arrested again"? 19 A. To be truthful, I didn't even know -- forgot clean all 20 about that I was on bail until you brought it up today. 21 Q. You clean forgot about it? 22 A. Yes. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have known at that time that if you 24 were arrested for committing some other offence while on 25 bail, you might lose your liberty? 53 1 A. No. I wasn't aware of that at that time. 2 MR McGRORY: Now, you were wearing a baseball cap and 3 a scarf. Isn't that correct? 4 A. That's correct, yes. 5 Q. Can you tell us anything about the circumstances then of 6 your arrest for the Drumcree incident in 1995? 7 A. I really can't remember. 8 Q. Have you no memory of how that conviction was brought 9 about? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was it on the evidence of a police officer of what you 12 were doing? 13 A. I really can't remember. 14 Q. Was it on video-taped evidence of what you were doing? 15 A. I can't remember. 16 Q. Do you accept that insofar as the incident on 6th March, 17 a few weeks earlier, was concerned, there would have 18 been evidence from a police officer that you were 19 singing sectarian songs? 20 A. I can't remember that either. 21 Q. That somebody had identified you as doing that? 22 A. I can't remember. 23 Q. In fact, you were arrested on the spot. 24 A. I really can't remember. 25 Q. Would it have occurred to you, Mr Lunt, that one way of 54 1 avoiding re-arrest is to make sure nobody could 2 recognise you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. That wouldn't have occurred to you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. A baseball cap and scarf around the bottom of your face 7 would prevent anybody from recognising you, wouldn't it? 8 A. No, I always wore my scarf like that. 9 Q. You always wore your scarf? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Everywhere you went? 12 A. Not every day, but when I did wear my scarf, that's the 13 way I wore it. 14 Q. You wore it up around your face? 15 A. No, not around my face. Around the bottom -- that was 16 the chin to about to here. 17 Q. Are you sure it wasn't a bit further up? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you agree that if someone is wearing a baseball cap 20 and scarf, even only as high as their lower lip, that it 21 would make it difficult to identify them? 22 A. Well, that's not what was going through my mind when 23 I was putting it on. 24 Q. Are you quite sure about that? 25 A. I am 100% positive. 55 1 Q. It would be a handy disguise for a rioter, wouldn't it? 2 A. Well, I wasn't going out for a riot that night, was I? 3 Q. You may not have been, but if you'd had your scarf 4 handy, I am suggesting to you that pulling it up a bit 5 would have been a good way of disguising yourself. 6 A. It obviously would be, but that isn't the case and that 7 isn't the way I was wearing it. 8 Q. But certainly your scarf was high enough up above your 9 jacket or coat or whatever else you were wearing to be 10 clearly visible. Isn't that correct? 11 A. The top I was wearing, I think it came into a V and -- 12 like that. 13 Q. So somebody wearing a scarf in the manner in which you 14 were wearing it for whatever reason, that would have 15 been a good way of identifying somebody? 16 A. Sorry? 17 Q. Do you agree your scarf was recognisable? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It was clear to see? 20 A. Yes, it was clear to see, yes. 21 Q. Now, you have already heard about what Mr Prunty said. 22 Isn't that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Mr Prunty, I am going to suggest to you, has been very 25 consistent in terms of what he has said about the man 56 1 wearing the Rangers scarf. Mr Prunty has said from the 2 very beginning that a man wearing the Rangers scarf was 3 in the crowd that was kicking at Robert Hamill. 4 A. That's not true. 5 Q. Are you suggesting that Mr Prunty saw nobody wearing 6 a Rangers scarf? 7 A. No, he could have well seen me wearing the Rangers 8 scarf, but I wasn't in the crowd and I certainly wasn't 9 kicking Robert Hamill. 10 Q. You see, the difficulty is, Mr Lunt, that we have no 11 description of anybody else wearing a Rangers scarf. 12 Do you accept that? 13 A. Yes, I accept that, yes. 14 Q. In any form, let alone one raised up above their jacket. 15 Do you accept that? 16 A. Yes, I accept that. 17 Q. What Mr Prunty has said to the police initially at the 18 trial of Marc Hobson and to this Inquiry consistently is 19 that a man wearing a Rangers scarf was in the crowd 20 kicking at Robert Hamill. 21 A. It is not true. 22 Q. I suggest that that was you. 23 A. No. I was not in the crowd. 24 Q. What Mr Prunty has said is that somebody pulled this man 25 away. He thinks a policeman. I am suggesting to you 57 1 that that probably happened before Constable A arrived 2 on the scene. 3 A. No. 4 Q. And that, having been removed from the crowd around 5 Robert Hamill, you were coming back with a bottle. 6 Isn't that correct? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You were going to strike somebody or throw it? 9 A. No, that's not true. 10 Q. That's why you ran away from Constable A. 11 A. No. 12 Q. Not for any other reason. 13 A. No. It's not. 14 Q. And that, in fact, you are lying to this Inquiry today. 15 A. No, I'm not lying. 16 MR McGRORY: No further questions. 17 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE 18 MS DINSMORE: Do you recall the female police officer 19 placing you in the police Land Rover? 20 A. I can't really remember it, no. 21 Q. Can you recall was she accompanied by another police 22 officer? 23 A. I am not 100%, but I think there were two police 24 officers, yes. 25 Q. Can you help us as to whether they were both policewomen 58 1 or one was a policewoman and one was a policeman? 2 A. I think one was a policeman. 3 Q. Now, in relation to the police officer when you were in 4 the police Land Rover, who was it took your details and 5 questioned you? 6 A. I really can't say who it was, but I think it was 7 a policewoman took my details. 8 Q. Can you just recap for us what is your recall about what 9 the police were doing at the material time when you were 10 present? 11 A. I can't remember. I am near enough sure they were 12 pushing people back up the town. 13 Q. Immediately prior to your arrest, was that the position 14 also? 15 A. Yes, I think it was, yes. 16 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. 17 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD 18 MR UNDERWOOD: Only one matter. I entirely forgot to ask 19 you about the draft witness statement. Perhaps we could 20 deal with that now. 21 If we could look at page [80703], this is a draft 22 that runs for 11 pages. We have heard a number of times 23 that you were interviewed by the Inquiry. That's 24 correct, is it? 25 A. Yes. 59 1 Q. What this is is a draft compiled for you arising out of 2 the interview. This was sent to you by -- rather, sent 3 to your solicitors to pass on to you by post, I think 4 last year. 5 Did you receive this? 6 A. No, I didn't receive it, but I was advised -- I was 7 advised of it, yes. 8 Q. Have you seen it recently? 9 A. Yes, I have, yes. 10 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it? 11 A. I have, yes. 12 Q. Is it accurate? 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 14 Q. Why didn't you sign it? 15 A. I was advised not to. 16 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. 17 Unless there is anything arising? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Thank you. 19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Lunt. 20 (The witness withdrew) 21 MR UNDERWOOD: Anne Bowles, please. 22 MS ANNE MURIEL BOWLES (sworn) 23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 24 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Ms Bowles. My name is 25 Underwood. I will be asking some questions on behalf of 60 1 the Inquiry. Should I be calling you Ms Bowles or 2 Mrs Smyth now? 3 A. It doesn't matter. 4 Q. Can you tell us your full names, please? 5 A. It is Anne Smyth, Anne Muriel Smyth. 6 Q. I think you understand what we are concerned with here 7 is the events of the early hours of 27th April 1997 in 8 the middle of Portadown. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I want to ask you, first of all, whether you can 11 identify your witness statement, which we find at 12 page [80083]. If we just scroll through fairly briefly 13 the three pages, is that your statement? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is it true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Thank you. 18 How good is your memory of the night of 19 27th April 1997? 20 A. I would say it's quite vague. 21 Q. Okay. Can I try to refresh it by taking you to a couple 22 of documents that are nearer the time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. First of all, if we look at page [07776], this is a note 25 of an interview with you by a police officer on 61 1 10th May 1997: 2 "Spoke with Anne Bowles, 19 years, who states that 3 she, her sister Alison and a girl (blank) purchased some 4 food from Boss Hogg's and sat on the step of the 5 Ulster Bank to eat their food and to wait for the 6 arrival of the Portadown bus from Banbridge. After the 7 bus had arrived, the three girls walked up the 8 High Street towards the direction of St Mark's Church on 9 the right-hand side of the High Street. They walked 10 past the police Land Rover and, when they reached the 11 Abbey National Building Society, Anne Bowles saw 12 Dean Forbes standing on a control traffic reservation. 13 Anne Bowles asked Forbes, 'What's going on?'. Forbes 14 replied, 'There's a fight going on'. The three girls 15 then left the scene and walked home. Anne Bowles 16 declined to make a statement." 17 I am going to ask you some questions in a minute, 18 but perhaps we can look at a second document, which is 19 page [07777], a further interview by another policeman 20 on 7th June 1997 at your home. The first line: 21 "She stated that as they were at the Northern Bank 22 in High Street on 27/04/97, they saw a crowd of about 23 50 persons in the middle of the road at the junction of 24 Thomas Street/Market Street and that there was a lot of 25 shouting. They then walked on up past the police 62 1 Land Rover to the Abbey National Building Society and it 2 was then that they saw Dean Forbes standing in the 3 traffic reservation in the centre of Market Street. She 4 cannot say if the police were out of the Land Rover when 5 they passed it, but accepted that they could have been 6 but it would have been impossible to see as the crowd 7 was all over the road and people were running 8 everywhere. She will say that there was no persons 9 standing at the police Land Rover when they parked it." 10 I think that should have been "passed it": 11 "She did not know who was with Dean Forbes." 12 Does that help? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, we can look at a model of how the scene might have 15 been at night-time on that date. We can see here -- 16 this is taken from just outside Eastwoods Clothing shop, 17 if you might remember that, at the top of Thomas Street. 18 Down to the right is the road leading down to Boss Hogg's 19 and up to the left is the church. We can swing to the 20 left so you can see that part of it. There you see the 21 church and West Street. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. If we go back down to the right, and if you look down 24 the street a bit, just pausing it there, can you help us 25 about whether the Land Rover was there, where we put it, 63 1 or somewhere else? 2 A. I am not totally sure, but I thought it was more down 3 a bit, more in front of the Halifax, but I'm not totally 4 sure. 5 Q. Is it right that you couldn't recall, when asked in 6 1997, whether the police were out of the Land Rover? 7 A. Yes, I don't know. 8 Q. Can you help us with whereabouts on this scene people 9 were? 10 A. People were more at the bottom of the screen here. 11 Q. Sorry. At the bottom of -- 12 A. Over at the other side of the road, just at the junction 13 of Thomas Street here. 14 Q. I am sorry. Nearer where the photographer is, you mean? 15 A. Yes, yes. 16 Q. You have described in the interviews you gave in May and 17 June with the policeman the people running around 18 everywhere -- 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. -- and, if the police were out, you wouldn't have been 21 able to see them. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you help us about what the crowd was up to? Was it 24 violent, aggressive, noisy or what? 25 A. I can't really remember. I just remember seeing 64 1 a massive mob. There was loads of people. 2 Q. Were you up on this side of the street on the 3 Thomas Street side or -- 4 A. No, I was the far side where the Land Rover was. We had 5 walked up the town, that side of the street. 6 Q. Okay. Were you frightened? 7 A. I probably was frightened, you know. I just couldn't 8 wait to get past it all. 9 Q. If we swing round again to the left here, we see traffic 10 reservations around here. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When you spoke to the police officers and told them you 13 had bumped into Dean Forbes at a traffic reservation, do 14 you mean one further down the road here or up near the 15 church? 16 A. I think I was speaking to Dean -- see where that sign is 17 in the middle of the road now? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Roughly round that area. 20 Q. So pretty much outside Clarks? 21 A. Yes, or -- yes, it was around that area. 22 Q. Can I show you something Dean Forbes said when he was 23 interviewed by the police and again see if that helps 24 your memory about what you might have seen? 25 A. Yes. 65 1 Q. If we look at page [07064], picking it up after the 2 first paragraph there is a question: 3 Question: "And what did you do?" 4 Answer: "Well, I did what the policewoman had told 5 me to do, backed off." 6 Question: "There was two fellows lying on the 7 ground. Could you describe the position of those in 8 relation to the junction and any of the shops that are 9 there?" 10 Answer: "Where Eastwoods' shutter was, just sort 11 of level with that in the middle of the road." 12 Then, if we go over the page, [07065], the third 13 paragraph down: 14 Question: "What was happening at that stage then 15 whenever you first seen that?" 16 Answer: "Well, people were just, you know, getting 17 tore into each other and then the police --" 18 Question: "What do you mean 'getting tore into 19 each other'?" 20 Answer: "Hitting each other with their fists and 21 what have you, and while that fellow was lying on the 22 ground, and then --" 23 Question: "Did he -- did you see him being struck?" 24 Answer: "Shortly after, when I moved more further 25 back, I could see him getting hit. He was getting 66 1 kicked even." 2 Question: "Where did you see those kicks going 3 to?"" 4 Overleaf, [07066]: 5 Answer: "Just in and around there." 6 Question: "And for the purposes of the tape, you are 7 indicating to us the ...?" 8 Answer: "The ribs and what have you." 9 If we go down towards the bottom quarter of the 10 page, there is a question: 11 Question: "And he was kicked about the head. Isn't 12 that right?" 13 Answer: "Well, I saw another fellow running in and 14 kicking him from the crowd, but I couldn't see where he 15 was getting kicked." 16 Question: "Where did you see the other fellow on 17 the road?" 18 Answer: "The other fellow lying on the road, he 19 was lying further back more near the path of the bakery, 20 so he was, closer to the junction at the corner." 21 Overleaf, [07067], if we go halfway down the page 22 there is a question: 23 Question: "And where -- just tell me exactly where 24 you say you were at that time?" 25 Answer: "At that time, I was standing just where 67 1 the flowerpots were, just in the middle of the road at 2 the neck where they split the junction on that traffic 3 island thing." 4 Question: "Yes. That new traffic island thing 5 that you can drive around. You were standing on it, 6 were you?" 7 Overleaf [07068]: 8 Answer: "Yes, at the very back of it." 9 If we go to page [07069], he is asked: 10 Question: "Did you get involved in any fighting at 11 all?" 12 Answer: "No." 13 Question: "What did you do then during this fight?" 14 Answer: "While that was -- while that was all 15 going on, I was standing talking to the girls." 16 Question: "Who? What girls are you taking about?" 17 Answer: "Anne and Lynn Bowles." 18 Question: "Anne and Lynn Bowles and their third 19 sister?" 20 Answer: "I think it was their other sister." 21 Question: "You think it was their third sister?" 22 Answer: "Yes." 23 Now, we have not seen Mr Forbes yet and we don't 24 know if that's true or not, but the account he was 25 giving to the police was a very detailed one of what 68 1 people were doing and of two people he could describe on 2 the ground and where he was, which is just where you 3 have been describing you bumped into him, and he says, 4 rightly or wrongly, that he was standing there talking 5 to you, your sister and another girl. 6 Does that help you with what you were able to see? 7 A. I didn't see a punch that night. I just saw a massive 8 mob of people. 9 Q. Were you the sort of girl who went out and looked at 10 trouble, if you saw it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You told us before that what you wanted to do was get 13 out of there, get past it as quickly as possible? 14 A. Yes. I wasn't even speaking to Dean that long. 15 Q. Help us on that. 16 A. Yes. I basically asked Dean what was going on. All he 17 could tell me was there was a fight had broke out at the 18 bottom of Thomas Street. 19 Q. Could you tell what he was about? Was he sitting there 20 looking relaxed, or did he look tense to go and join in 21 or anything of that nature? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. If there had been kicking and punching and people on the 24 ground by the time you had got to that traffic sign 25 area -- 69 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- and you had been talking to him about it -- 3 A. I didn't see anybody on the ground. 4 Q. That's what I was really going to ask you. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You have told us when you were going past the Land Rover 7 you wouldn't have been able to see if the police were 8 out because there was such a crowd. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But by the time you got up there, can you tell us 11 whether the situation had changed, whether it was still 12 such a busy crowd that you wouldn't have been able to 13 see what was going on in it? 14 A. Yes. There was just a big massive mob of crowd. 15 I didn't know what was going on. 16 Q. Just some other things I want to see if you can help us 17 about. Do you know Stacey Bridgett? 18 A. I know Stacey Bridgett just to say hello to. I don't 19 know him on a personal level. 20 Q. We know that at some point in the evening while the 21 fight was in progress or was just starting that 22 Mr Forbes and Stacey Bridgett were with each other. Did 23 you see him around? 24 A. No. When I was speaking to Dean, I think Dean was on 25 his own. I am not totally sure, but I didn't see 70 1 Stacey. 2 Q. Did you see anybody with a bloody nose, do you recall? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you know Andrew Allen? 5 A. No. 6 Q. He went by the name of "Fonzy" apparently. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you recognise anyone else in the area? 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just ask: would you know Andrew Allen 10 or "Fonzy" by sight? 11 A. I might recognise "Fonzy" by sight, but I don't -- 12 I have a vague idea who he is, but I am not 100% sure. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 14 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you recognise anybody else around the 15 area that night? 16 A. Dean was the only one I knew, that I saw that I knew. 17 Q. Just remind me again what it is you think he told you. 18 A. He just told me that a fight had broke out at the bottom 19 of Thomas Street. 20 Q. Did you hear any screaming, shouting at any stage? 21 A. I can't remember. I can't remember if there was 22 screaming and shouting. 23 Q. Did you meet Neil Ritchie in the evening? 24 A. I can't remember meeting Neil that night down the town. 25 I don't think I did. 71 1 Q. I am so sorry. 2 A. I don't think I saw Neil downtown. I didn't see Neil 3 downtown that night. 4 Q. Okay. Did anybody else that you came across say 5 anything else apart from a fight had started at the top 6 of Thomas Street? 7 A. No. 8 Q. I hope you understand how important this is and we are 9 doing the very best we can to piece together memories 10 that are now 12 years old. We obviously appreciate you 11 coming. 12 Is there anything else you think you can help us 13 with on this? 14 A. No. 15 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much. You may be 16 asked some more questions. 17 A. Okay. 18 MR McGRORY: No questions. 19 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR 20 MR ADAIR: Ms Bowles, you saw the police, first of all, on 21 10th May. I am sure you won't remember the date, but 22 that's the date. This is at page [07776], if we could 23 just have that on the screen, please. 24 How did the police get in touch with you? Did they 25 call at your house or phone you to come to the station? 72 1 A. They came to my house. 2 Q. They came to your house and they talked to you in your 3 house and wanted to know what you had seen. Is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It is on the screen what you told the police on 7 10th May. You make no mention at all of seeing anybody, 8 let alone any crowd in the street, apart from 9 Dean Forbes. 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Now why was that? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. You see, you had seen this mob on the street. Isn't 14 that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. But yet, when you were first seen by the police on 17 10th May, you make absolutely no mention of it? 18 A. I don't know. I'm sure I told the police there was 19 a mob of people. I don't know. 20 Q. You were asked then to make a statement about what you 21 had seen, and you refused. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why was that? 24 A. Because I just felt that I had nothing basically to tell 25 the police and I wanted nothing to do with this. 73 1 Q. Well, could it be it is the second part of your answer 2 is the accurate part; that you wanted nothing to do with 3 it? 4 A. I had no relevant information to tell the police either. 5 Q. Well, we know when you saw the police again -- they came 6 to see you again. Did they come again to your house? 7 A. Yes, I think so. 8 Q. That was on 7th June. I am sure, again, you won't 9 remember the date. That's at page [07777]. On this 10 occasion, you tell the police about walking up past the 11 police Land Rover essentially at the time the crowd were 12 at the junction of Thomas Street. Isn't that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do I understand that what you are telling us here today 15 is that throughout that time that you walked up past the 16 Land Rover, through the crowd, stood talking to -- 17 A. I didn't walk through the crowd. 18 Q. Round the crowd. 19 A. Right. 20 Q. At the junction of Woodhouse Street, stood talking to 21 Dean Forbes -- 22 A. I didn't actually walk round the crowd either. The 23 crowd was across the other side of the road. 24 Q. Okay. You walked across the road from the crowd, 25 Ms Bowles -- 74 1 A. Right. Okay. 2 Q. -- but you saw nothing happening? 3 A. There was that many people, you couldn't see what was 4 going on. 5 Q. You saw nobody hitting each other? 6 A. I didn't see a punch that night. 7 Q. Did you hear anybody shouting abuse at the police? 8 A. I don't know. No. I can't remember. No, I don't think 9 so. 10 Q. Did you hear any bottles being thrown? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you hear anybody screaming? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Did you hear anybody shouting? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Did you hear any sirens? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Is it just you don't want to tell us what you saw? 19 A. No, that's not the case. I have told you everything 20 I know. 21 Q. I suggest to you, Ms Bowles, that you are symptomatic of 22 the problem the police had in trying to investigate this 23 crime. 24 A. No, that's wrong. 25 Q. Saw nothing, heard nothing. 75 1 A. I have told you what I have saw. 2 MR ADAIR: Thank you. 3 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE 4 MS DINSMORE: I have just one question, Mrs Smyth. I wonder 5 could we have [07777] again, please, on the screen? If 6 we could just look at six lines from the bottom, it 7 starts: 8 "She cannot say if police were out of the Land Rover 9 when they passed it, but accepted that they could have 10 been, but it would have been impossible to see, as the 11 crowd was all over the road ..." 12 So it is absolutely clear in your mind that the 13 police could well have been out of the Land Rover and 14 you are not for a moment suggesting that there was no 15 police presence? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Nor for a moment are you suggesting that your evidence 18 to the Inquiry is that there were police sitting in the 19 Land Rover observing what you claim to observe? 20 A. No. 21 MS DINSMORE: Thank you. 22 MR McGRORY: I have a few short questions. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: You weren't quick enough off the mark! 24 MS DINSMORE: Oh, sorry, Mr McGrory. 25 76 1 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY 2 MR McGRORY: That's all right. I earlier declined. 3 I want to ask you some questions, Ms Bowles, on 4 behalf of the Hamill family. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. "I basically wanted nothing to do with this", was 7 an answer you gave Mr Adair beside me a few moments ago. 8 Do you realise what we are talking about here is the 9 fact that a young man was beaten to death in the street? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Probably for one reason only and that was his religion? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. But you did realise at the time, if not that night, very 14 quickly afterwards, what had happened that night? 15 A. Yes. Well, I heard on the news after that, yes. 16 Q. There were a lot of young people around Portadown 17 centre, maybe 40 to 50 young people, on that particular 18 occasion. 19 You see, one of the problems we are encountering in 20 this Inquiry, Ms Bowles, is an awful lot of those young 21 people seem to have had a reluctance to cooperate with 22 the police. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You have basically said you wanted nothing to do with 25 this. 77 1 A. It was nothing to do with me. I was in the wrong place 2 at the wrong time. I was walking home with my own 3 friends. 4 Q. Yes, but I have to suggest to you that the fact that you 5 might have seen nothing is a simple answer, but wanting 6 nothing to do with it is another matter altogether. 7 A. I have told yous what I have saw. 8 Q. But if you told the police everything that you had seen, 9 why do you need to say you basically wanted nothing to 10 do with it? 11 A. I didn't want no involvement in it. It was nothing to 12 do with me. I wasn't involved in it. 13 Q. But you wouldn't be involved if you hadn't seen 14 anything. The police wouldn't have been interested in 15 you after that. 16 A. I didn't -- I have told you what I saw. 17 Q. That's not what I am asking you. 18 If you had told the police the truth, that you had 19 seen nothing, they would have been happy with that. 20 They wouldn't have been interested in you after that. 21 Do you understand that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. By basically saying, "I wanted nothing to do with it" 24 I am suggesting to you that reveals that was the reason 25 why you told the police you hadn't seen anything? 78 1 A. No. 2 Q. Are you telling the truth? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you accept that there might have been a lot of people 5 who were present in the centre of Portadown that night 6 who would rather not have been involved in giving 7 information? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that's really for the witness 9 to say. 10 MR McGRORY: Very well, sir. I accept that. No further 11 questions. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, it is possible to be of this state 13 of mind, isn't it, "I didn't see anything and, 14 therefore, I wanted nothing to do with it"? 15 A. Yes. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I hear the witness saying, "Yes". You may 17 say I am prompting her. 18 MR McGRORY: Yes. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: There are two ways in which the sequence may 20 go, are there not? "I didn't want to be involved, so 21 I said I saw nothing". "I saw nothing and so I didn't 22 want to be involved". 23 A. Yes. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 25 MR McGRORY: Thank you. 79 1 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you, sir. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mrs Smyth. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 5 (The witness withdrew) 6 MR UNDERWOOD: Alison Bowles, please. 7 MS ALISON ESTHER BOWLES (sworn) 8 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. 10 A. Hi. 11 Q. My name is Underwood and I am Counsel to the Inquiry. 12 I have some questions for you. 13 Can you tell us your full name, please? 14 A. It is Alison Esther Bowles. Well, it was at the time. 15 Q. What is it now? 16 A. Alison Esther Whitton. 17 Q. If we look at page [80080] -- it will come up on the 18 screen -- if we just flick through these three 19 pages fairly briefly, is that a statement you kindly 20 signed for us last year? 21 A. It is, yes. 22 Q. Is it true? 23 A. It is, yes. 24 Q. I want to ask some questions, like I asked your sister 25 some questions -- 80 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. -- about what you would have seen on 27th April 1997? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. She told us that you were together, that you saw 5 Dean Forbes -- you walked up the town from the 6 Boss Hogg's area to past the police Land Rover to the 7 area where there is a traffic control just before the 8 church -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- and you bumped into Dean Forbes there. 11 Can I show you a couple of documents to jog your 12 memory to see what you can recall of that, please? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. If we look at page [07777], this is a note of interview 15 with your sister. 16 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 17 Q. 7th June 1997. So six weeks or so after the events: 18 "Interviewed Anne Bowles on 07/06/97 at her home. 19 She stated that as they were at the Northern Bank in the 20 High Street on 27/04/97, they saw a crowd of 21 about 50 persons in the middle of the road at the 22 junction of Thomas Street/Market Street and that there 23 was a lot of shouting. They then walked on up past the 24 police Land Rover to the Abbey National Building Society 25 and it was then that they saw Dean Forbes standing in 81 1 the traffic reservation in the centre of Market Street. 2 "She cannot say if the police were out of the 3 Land Rover when they passed it, but accepted that they 4 could have been, but it would have been impossible to 5 see, as the crowd was all over the road and people were 6 running everywhere. She will say that there was no 7 persons standing at the police Land Rover when they 8 parked it." 9 We think that probably means "passed it": 10 "She did not know who was with Dean Forbes." 11 Then if we go over the page to [07778], we see the 12 final few lines of that page, same time, same date, same 13 police officer: 14 "Interviewed Alison Bowles on 07/06/97 at her home. 15 She gave the same details as her sister Anne Bowles as 16 shown in A325." 17 Were you interviewed together, in fact, or just one 18 after the other? 19 A. I think we were interviewed together. I am not 100% 20 sure, but I think we were, yes. 21 Q. We have a model of the scene we have put together. 22 Perhaps I can show you that. You can see here, just to 23 get you orientated, this is like a photograph taken from 24 just outside Eastwoods Clothing shop, if you can 25 remember that. 82 1 Down to the right-hand side there is 2 Market Street/High Street going down towards Boss Hogg's. 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. We can swing to the right a little bit and show you 5 a slightly better view of that. Then, if we go back to 6 the left, we can see the church, West Street where that 7 tree is really, and then there is a sign giving traffic 8 directions -- 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. -- just outside Clarks. 11 Now, can you help us with which side of the street 12 you were walking up when you walked up from Boss Hogg's? 13 A. It would have been the side of the street where the 14 Alliance & Leicester was. It would have been down by 15 the Northern Bank. 16 Q. So passing the entrance to Woodhouse Street rather than 17 Thomas Street? 18 A. Yes. We didn't walk up the other side. It was that 19 side, yes. 20 Q. Can you help us about the Land Rover? If we swung back 21 to the right, can you remember whether it was parked 22 there or somewhere different? 23 A. I can remember a Land Rover being there, but I can't 24 exactly remember where it was parked -- 25 Q. All right. 83 1 A. -- so I can't. 2 Q. When you bumped into Dean Forbes, again can you help us, 3 if we swing left a bit here, both your sister and he 4 have said that took place roughly where that traffic 5 sign is. Can you help us on that? 6 A. Yes. I think it was round, you know, the Abbey National 7 was from my memory. I am not 100% sure. 8 Q. Where is the Abbey National? 9 A. The Abbey National would have been round where that 10 traffic ... 11 Q. Right. Now the critical question for us is: what was 12 going on? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. We are grateful for any help anybody can give us about 15 this, because it is obviously a matter of great 16 importance. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. In particular, we are concerned to know what sort of 19 fighting was going on and what the police were doing 20 about it and where they were. 21 Now, can you recall seeing any policemen on the 22 ground? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Were there any other police vehicles around? 25 A. Not that I can remember. 84 1 THE CHAIRMAN: "The ground" may be ambiguous. 2 MR UNDERWOOD: Out of the Land Rover is what I should say, 3 walking, running around or standing? 4 A. I can't remember anything like that. 5 Q. Can you recall any noise in particular, like sirens or 6 shouting, sectarian abuse? 7 A. I don't honestly remember, to be honest with you. 8 I don't remember if there was anything shouted or what 9 was shouted or anything, so I don't. I'm sure there was 10 noise obviously, like, but I can't say for definite what 11 I heard. 12 Q. You obviously agreed with what your sister had said -- 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. -- when you were both interviewed in 1997. That was to 15 the effect there was a crowd of about 50 people around 16 and about. 17 A. Yes, yes. 18 Q. Again, using this model if you want to, can you help 19 with where that crowd was? Were they over on this side 20 of the street or over by the Land Rover or where? 21 A. From my memory it was in around the bottom of the -- 22 across the road from the Alliance & Leicester, more of 23 a crowd was there. 24 Q. Really at the mouth of Thomas Street? 25 A. Yes, yes. 85 1 Q. Was this the sort of thing you had seen before, a crowd 2 of 50 people milling around in that way? 3 A. No, no. 4 Q. Give us a feeling of the atmosphere of it? Was it 5 frightening? 6 A. It probably was frightening, yes, so it was, because 7 there was a large crowd there, so there was. It 8 probably was frightening, yes. 9 Q. Did you hurry past it or linger or try to have a look or 10 what? 11 A. No. I probably walked on past it, so I did, and, you 12 know, at the Alliance & Leicester just on up towards the 13 Abbey National. 14 Q. When you met Dean Forbes, what happened then? 15 A. I never spoke to Dean Forbes, so I didn't. 16 Q. It was just between your sister and him, was it? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Were you a little apart from them or do you remember how 19 that was? 20 A. I honestly can't remember how far away I was from him. 21 Q. Did you and she stop for very long? 22 A. No, it would have just been to ask what was going on 23 over there, more or less to find out what was going on, 24 but we didn't hang about. 25 Q. No interest in it, no fascination in what might have 86 1 been behind you? 2 A. No, no involvement. Didn't want to know anything, you 3 know. 4 Q. Because one of the matters the Inquiry is going to have 5 to consider is what Dean Forbes was doing that night. 6 He has given an account to the police about talking to 7 you at some length. 8 Can I show it to you for you to comment on it? 9 A. Uh-huh, yes. 10 Q. It starts on page [07064]. In the middle of that page 11 he is describing what he did: namely, that a policewoman 12 had told him to back off. He is asked a question just 13 after that: 14 Question: "There was two fellows lying on the 15 ground. Could you describe the position of those in 16 relation to the junction and any of the shops that are 17 there? 18 Answer: "Where Eastwoods' shutter was, just sort 19 of level with that in the middle of the road." 20 So he is able to describe from wherever he was two 21 men lying on the ground. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Then over the page at [07065], about a third of the way 24 down, he says: 25 87 1 Answer: "Well, people were just, you know, getting 2 tore into each other, and then the police --" 3 Question: "What do you mean getting tore into each 4 other?" 5 Answer: "Hitting each other with their fists and 6 what have you, and while that fellow was lying on the 7 ground, and then --" 8 Question: "Did he -- did you see him being struck?" 9 Answer: "Shortly after, when I moved more further 10 back, I could see him getting hit. He was getting 11 kicked even." 12 He is able to describe all of that. Then if we go 13 to page [07067], about halfway down the page there is 14 a question: 15 Question: "And where -- just tell me exactly where 16 you say you were at that time?" 17 Answer: "At that time, I was standing just where 18 the flowerpots were, just in the middle of the road at 19 the neck where they split the junction on that traffic 20 island thing." 21 Going over the page, [07068], halfway down 22 a question: 23 Question: "And that's what you saw happening when 24 you were standing there? This man getting kicked in the 25 ribs, and you say you saw a man kicking him in the head, 88 1 you said?" 2 Answer: "Well, I don't know if it was in the head 3 because of the crowd that was there." 4 He goes on to describe him. Then, if we go over to 5 [07069], second line: 6 Question: "Did you get involved in any fighting at 7 all?" 8 Answer: "No." 9 Question: "What did you do then during this fight?" 10 Answer: "While that was -- while that was all 11 going on, I was standing talking to the girls." 12 Question: "Who? What girls are you talking about?" 13 Answer: "Anne and Lynn Bowles." 14 Question: "Anne and Lynn Bowles and their third 15 sister?" 16 Answer: "I think it was their other sister." 17 Question: "You think it was the third sister?" 18 Answer: "Yes." 19 So he is saying you two sisters and what must have 20 been xxxxxxxxxx, I think, were standing there talking to 21 him while he could see all of this fighting going on. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It very important from his perspective, you 24 understand -- 25 A. Uh-huh. 89 1 Q. -- because the police suspected him -- and the Inquiry 2 is going to have to look into this question -- of being 3 involved in killing Robert Hamill, and his alibi, if you 4 like, is you. He wasn't there killing anybody; he was 5 standing there chatting to you and able to see it all. 6 Now, can you give him that alibi or not? 7 A. No, because I wasn't standing talking to him. From my 8 memory, I cannot remember if I was standing talking to 9 Dean Forbes. I can't even say of a conversation I had 10 with him, and Lynn Bowles wasn't even there that night. 11 Q. The Inquiry obviously is going to only get this short 12 opportunity to see you. It doesn't know whether you are 13 the sort of girl who would hurry away from violence or 14 watch it for a sport. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you help us with what the position would have been 17 that night if you had been standing there and you had 18 seen people being kicked in the head and kicked in the 19 ribs, lying on the ground with a crowd baying for them 20 to die? Would that have stuck in your mind? 21 A. No, but I didn't see that. 22 Q. No, but if you had, how would that have struck you? 23 Would that have been the sort of thing that horrified 24 you or fascinated you or what? 25 A. That would have been a thing that would have been in 90 1 your head, but I didn't see that. 2 Q. How likely is it then that that happened while you were 3 standing there talking to Dean Forbes and you have 4 simply forgotten it? 5 A. No, I don't remember talking -- I remember seeing 6 Dean Forbes, but I don't remember having a conversation 7 with him. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you. That's very helpful. If you wait 9 there, some other people may have some questions for 10 you. 11 MR FERGUSON: No questions. 12 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR 13 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir. 14 Could you bring up again [07777], please? This is 15 the note I think you were shown earlier on about the 16 time the police came to talk to you and your sister. Do 17 you remember that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were talked to together. Basically, both of you 20 agreed with what the other was saying. Is that right? 21 A. Yes, uh-huh. 22 Q. So I take it then that you agree that -- do you see 23 about halfway down where it says: 24 "She cannot say if the police were out of the 25 Land Rover when they passed it, but accepted that they 91 1 could have been, but it would have been impossible to 2 see, as the crowd was all over the road and people were 3 running everywhere." 4 Do you agree with that, just like your sister said? 5 A. Uh-huh, yes. 6 MR ADAIR: Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory? 8 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY 9 MR McGRORY: Yes. 10 Sorry, Ms Bowles. I am going to ask you a very few 11 short questions on behalf of the Hamill family. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. I just want you to understand that the Hamill family are 14 very concerned that perhaps a lot of people have not 15 been as forthcoming as they could have been about what 16 they saw that night. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Do you understand that that is a very important matter, 19 because Robert Hamill was kicked to death on the night 20 of 27th April? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. You would have been aware that he died of his injuries 23 some ten days later? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, I am going to suggest to you that in view of what 92 1 Mr Forbes says he saw, that was put to you by 2 Mr Underwood a short while ago -- 3 A. Uh-huh, yes. 4 Q. -- that you were in or about the same place in front of 5 the church? 6 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 7 Q. You would have had pretty much the same view of what the 8 crowd were doing as he did? 9 A. No -- Dean Forbes obviously had seen something that 10 I didn't see. I am not going to say something that 11 I didn't see. Do you know what I mean? I am not going 12 to sit here and say something when I didn't see 13 something like that. 14 Yes, I would have been standing where Dean Forbes 15 was that night, but I didn't see what Dean Forbes seen. 16 Q. You see, I am going to suggest to you that all of this 17 was going on and you must have walked past it? 18 A. We walked past the other side of the road. 19 Q. Yes, but even taking into account the fact that you were 20 walking up a different side of the road -- 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. -- you would have been walking past what was a virtual 23 riot. Do you -- 24 A. Well, at the time, whenever we were walking past it, 25 I wasn't 100% sure what was going on over there. I knew 93 1 there was a crowd of people, but I didn't know until we 2 got up and asked what was -- well, Anne asked what -- to 3 Dean Forbes what was going on over there. 4 Q. You see, we have varying descriptions of what happened, 5 but there were various stages in what happened. 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. At an early stage I am going to suggest to you that 8 there is evidence that Robert Hamill and others who were 9 with him were attacked for no good reason -- 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. -- and he was beaten while lying on the ground. Do you 12 understand that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that thereafter a situation of mayhem ensued -- 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. -- as others came along, and there was some fighting 17 afterwards. Do you accept that? 18 A. There was fighting. Sorry, what do you mean by -- 19 Q. In the street. Street fighting amongst two different 20 groups. 21 A. There was another fight that night? 22 Q. Well, what I am suggesting to you is what happened to 23 Robert Hamill was not a fight, that he was attacked. 24 A. Right, okay, uh-huh. 25 Q. But that after that happened, there was fighting between 94 1 people? 2 A. I didn't see anything like that. I don't remember 3 anything like that. 4 Q. This is what I am asking you about, because I am 5 suggesting to you that you must have come along the 6 street at some point either during the time when 7 Robert Hamill was being attacked on the ground -- 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. -- or that there was fighting in the immediate aftermath 10 of that, and you must have seen it. 11 A. I don't remember seeing anything like that, so I don't. 12 I don't remember seeing a fight after it at all. 13 Q. And that even standing at the church, you would have had 14 a good view of exactly what was going on down at the 15 junction. 16 A. I didn't see anything that was going on down at that 17 junction, so I didn't. I definitely didn't. I don't 18 even remember anything like that or fighting -- 19 Q. Well, is it -- 20 A. -- after that. 21 Q. -- the case, Ms Bowles, you just don't want to be 22 involved in this and you are just not telling us what 23 you saw? 24 A. No, that's not the case. I am not going to sit here and 25 say something that I am supposedly meant to have seen 95 1 when I didn't see it. 2 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions. 3 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman. 4 MR McCOMB: No questions. 5 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you. 6 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Just two things. First of all, you said just 8 now that Anne asked Dean Forbes what was going on. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Did you hear what he said in reply? 11 A. I honestly don't even remember what he said. By my 12 notes it said that he said there was a fight going on, 13 but I don't even remember -- it is too long. I don't 14 even remember what he said. That's the truth. 15 Q. Did you and your sister stop when she asked him that 16 question? 17 A. Yes, we probably did stop. I assume we stopped, so 18 I did. I don't think we walked, shouting it or walked on 19 or whatever. 20 Q. No, but can you remember for how long you stopped? 21 A. It wouldn't have been that long. 22 Q. Are we speaking of seconds or minutes? 23 A. I don't honestly know. There is no point in saying 24 because I don't know. 25 Q. But you think it wasn't for long? 96 1 A. No, I don't think it was for long. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. I have nothing arising 4 out of that. That's your evidence. Thank you for 5 coming. 6 A. Okay. Thank you. 7 (The witness withdrew) 8 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we have one further witness for this 9 afternoon, who is Stephen Sinnamon. I am being asked 10 for a comfort break before we arrive at him. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 12 (2.45 pm) 13 (A short break) 14 (3.00 pm) 15 MR UNDERWOOD: Stephen Sinnamon, please. 16 MR STEPHEN TREVOR SINNAMON (affirmed) 17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 18 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Sinnamon, can you tell the Panel your full 19 name, please? 20 A. It is Stephen Trevor Sinnamon. 21 Q. Thank you. I want to be asking you about events of the 22 early hours of 27th April 1997. To jog your memory, we 23 have some documents and some photographs and we have 24 a model. 25 Can I just show you the model, for a start, to give 97 1 you a recall, as best we can, of what Portadown centre 2 looked like in April 1997? This is taken from outside 3 Eastwoods Clothing Store and the shop signs on here are 4 as they were in April 1997. 5 If we swing round to the right and keep going round 6 360 degrees, that is Number 7 Bakery at the top of 7 Thomas Street. Beginning to look down Thomas Street, 8 there is Jamesons. You see the British Legion area down 9 there. This is Eastwoods itself. Then we are looking 10 back towards the church, West Street and top of 11 Woodhouse Street. If we leave it there, we have put 12 a Land Rover there principally for the purpose of asking 13 witnesses if they can recall seeing one and, if so, 14 whether that's the right position. 15 Can I ask you, first of all, in respect of the night 16 have you got any decent memory of it? 17 A. It's not great, being honest. 18 Q. Let's see if I can jog it. 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. If we look at page [08141], this is something called 21 a QPF. It is a questionnaire which police had in April 22 and May 1997 and they were going asking questions based 23 on it of anybody they knew might have been in the area. 24 This one is the one they asked of you. They had spaces 25 in it, but they have typed in the answers here. 98 1 If we pick it up from there, we see this was 2 9th May 1997. Do you remember being seen by the police 3 then? 4 A. Sorry. 5 Q. Do you remember being seen by the police around 6 9th May 1997? 7 A. I remember them coming to the house, yes. 8 Q. Okay. These are standard questions: 9 "You have been identified as being present at 10 Market Street, Portadown, on 27th April 1997 at or 11 around the time of a serious assault. 12 "Where were you coming from?" 13 The answer that has been typed in for you there is: 14 "Coach Inn, Banbridge." 15 Do you remember that night being at the Coach Inn 16 and coming back from -- 17 A. I remember at the Coach Inn. 18 Q. "Who was with you? 19 "'Grogs'." 20 We have seen documents suggesting "Grogs" was 21 Gregory Blevins. Is that helpful? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That's right, is it? There is a name blanked out: 24 "'Fonzy'." 25 That's Andrew. 99 1 A. Andrew? 2 Q. Andrew Allen. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. "Tracey Clarke, Tracy Newell", also known, I think, as 5 Tracy McAlpine. Did you know her by that name? 6 A. No. 7 Q. All right: 8 "Kelly Lavery, Judith, Pauline Newell, 9 Andrew Osborne and Dean Forbes." 10 Were those people who were, in fact, with you? 11 A. I am not sure who Kelly Lavery is. I don't know if 12 Andrew was there. 13 Q. "Who else was in the vicinity?" 14 You say: 15 "No-one seen." 16 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so, 17 give details." 18 What you say is: 19 "Was aware of incident from outside McConvilles." 20 Can you tell us what you saw? 21 A. From McConvilles, you can't really see down there. 22 I heard scuffling and like that there. I went on down 23 to it. When I got there, I think it was pretty much 24 over. 25 Q. Can you help us with where McConvilles was? We can look 100 1 at the map or the model. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let's look at the map, shall we? It will come up. 4 Can you orientate yourself here? 5 A. Let me see now. 6 Q. Was it at the church end or the Boss Hogg's end? 7 A. It is the church end. 8 Q. Can you remember which street it was in, or was it on 9 West Street? 10 A. Mandeville Street. 11 Q. We can zoom in on Mandeville Street, I think. 12 A. That would be McConvilles there, that "PH", public 13 house. 14 Q. I see. On the corner of Mandeville Street and 15 West Street? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That's when you first heard something, you say? 18 A. I would have heard, of course. 19 Q. You went back down, you tell us? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. How far back down did you go? Did you go all the way to 22 the junction with Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street, or 23 what, or did you stay round by the church? 24 A. I went on down, right up to it. 25 Q. When you went back down, were you on your own or did 101 1 those others who had been walking up there with you walk 2 down with you? 3 A. I think I was on my own. I can't recall anybody else 4 being there. 5 Q. What did you see when you got there? 6 A. At that time, I think the ambulance was there, so it 7 was, and the police was moving everybody pretty much up. 8 Q. The ambulance was parked, was it, or moving? 9 A. Parked, I think it was parked. 10 Q. Let me just tell you this is very helpful because we 11 know when precisely the ambulance stopped and left 12 there, so this pins down for us a snapshot of what was 13 happening at a particular time. 14 We know it is between 1.58 and 2.02 that the 15 ambulance was there. You walked down West Street then, 16 I presume, did you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When you say you went all the way down, did you stay on 19 that side of the road or did you cross over to the top 20 of Thomas Street or what? 21 A. It would have been down the middle of the road, I would 22 say. I am not really sure, to be honest. 23 Q. So you describe the ambulance as stationary. Did you 24 see anybody on the ground? 25 A. No. 102 1 Q. Did you see anybody with a stretcher? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Describe again what the police were doing for us, if you 4 would? 5 A. They were moving people up towards the church direction. 6 Q. How were they doing that? Were they in a line or were 7 they just one-on-one? 8 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you, to be honest. 9 I just noticed them moving up. It was a policewoman 10 I noticed. To be honest, I didn't even know how much 11 or... 12 Q. Okay. What was the atmosphere? Was it aggressive, 13 noisy? 14 A. I would say there would probably have been a bit of 15 tension or whatever. I can't really ... 16 Q. I am sorry? 17 A. Probably a bit of tension. 18 Q. Did you see the police with batons or riot guns, or, as 19 far as you could see, were they just walking people up? 20 A. As far as I could see, they were just walking them up. 21 Q. Any noise? 22 A. At that stage? 23 Q. Uh-huh. 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. It was the noise that had alerted you in the first 103 1 place, I think. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you help us with whether you think the noise had 4 quietened down by the time you got down there or do you 5 just not remember? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. All right. You told the police in this questionnaire we 8 just looked at some of the names of people who, at that 9 stage, you thought you had been with coming back. You 10 just told us that you think when you walked back down 11 into the centre there you were on your own. 12 Did you see anybody that you recognised when you 13 went back down into the middle? I will put some names 14 to you. How about that? Dean Forbes? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Rory Robinson? 17 A. Who? 18 Q. Rory Robinson? 19 A. Sorry. 20 Q. Stacey Bridgett? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Andrew Allen? 23 A. No. 24 Q. "Fonzy", that is, of course. 25 A. No. 104 1 Q. Allister Hanvey, did you know him. 2 A. I knew him, but I could -- it's trying to put faces to 3 the people that I seen. I honestly don't know. 4 Q. Marc Hobson? 5 A. Don't know. Sorry. 6 Q. Did you know David Woods? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you see him that night? 9 A. I seen him that night, but I don't -- I didn't see him 10 there at that time. 11 Q. All right. Did you see the Land Rover itself, the 12 police Land Rover? 13 A. As I was saying earlier on, I knew there was 14 a Land Rover there, but I couldn't tell you exactly 15 where. We were kind of -- it was there every week. Do 16 you know what I mean? You just didn't pay it any 17 attention. 18 Q. So you would have walked past it in the first place, 19 presumably? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. From what you are telling us, when you walked up the 22 street in the first place, there wasn't anything going 23 on. Would that be fair? 24 A. Sorry? 25 Q. When you walked up -- 105 1 A. When I was walking up? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Not that I knew of. I would have been obviously ahead 4 of people and I didn't know anything. It was like, 5 whenever I got to there, I heard the ... 6 Q. Did you see any other police cars around, do you 7 remember? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. All right. I think you went on to a gathering at 10 Tracy Newell's house afterwards. Is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you remember who was there or anybody that was there? 13 A. There was a load of people there, like, but ... 14 Q. Allister Hanvey? 15 A. I am not sure if he was there or not. I think he 16 probably was. I don't know. 17 Q. Anybody wearing a silver jacket with orange stripes down 18 the sleeves? 19 A. I don't know what I was wearing that night. Sorry. 20 Q. As far as I can see, if we look back at this 21 questionnaire of yours, if we go to page [08142], which 22 is the second page of it, you tell us on the second main 23 line there in response to the question: 24 "If travelled from Banbridge, who else travelled to 25 Portadown with you? 106 1 "Chris Henderson." 2 Then you say: 3 "Got a lift home with his girlfriend." 4 Do you mean Chris Henderson got a lift home with his 5 girlfriend or you did? 6 A. I think it would have been Chris. He lived out in 7 Kernon. 8 Q. Okay. That's all then finished off. It describes you. 9 As far as we are aware, the police didn't have any 10 further dealings with you after this questionnaire in 11 1997. 12 A. Not that I can think of, no. I don't know. 13 Q. Did you have any more to do with them? Did you try to 14 get in touch with them, for example? 15 A. My mother did. 16 Q. What happened there? 17 A. She just -- she was at work when the police called at 18 the house and I told her they were there and what it was 19 about. She just phoned them up to see, you know -- 20 I don't even know what she asked. She just phoned them 21 up to see what was going on, basically. 22 Q. You just mentioned there that you told her there was 23 fighting. You haven't told us you saw fighting. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Were you able to tell her there had been fighting 107 1 because of what you learned afterwards? 2 A. Sorry? 3 Q. Were you able to tell your mother there had been 4 fighting because of what you had heard afterwards? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where did you hear that from? 7 A. Hear there was fighting? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Well, I knew there was fighting. I was there. 10 Q. Sorry. My fault, I am sure. Let's see if I can take 11 you back over what you saw. 12 When you walked up through the town -- 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. -- there was nothing going on? 15 A. Well, there was an ambulance. 16 Q. When you walked up, there was nothing. Is that right? 17 A. Oh, yes, yes. 18 Q. You get up to Mandeville Street. You hear a commotion. 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. You walk back down and you see police walking people 21 back up the street. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. You say there was tension in the air -- 24 A. Probably would have been. 25 Q. -- and, of course, there was an ambulance. Did you just 108 1 assume there had been fighting or did you see anybody? 2 A. I seen it and heard it. 3 Q. So the commotion you heard was the sound of fighting? 4 A. It would have been the fighting. 5 Q. Sectarian sounds? Were people swearing at each other? 6 A. I don't know. I don't know anything that was being 7 said. 8 Q. Give us the best impression you can of what made you 9 think that the commotion was fighting. 10 A. The ambulance and the police moving people up, plus the 11 noise of the fighting, like. 12 Q. Excuse me a moment. I said there was no more dealing 13 with you. I should have taken you to page [03692]. On 14 21st May you were re-interviewed. It calls you P46 15 here. It is you: 16 "Re-interviewed P46 again. States he is unable to 17 recall whom he walked from Boss Hogg's to 18 St Mark's Church with. Stated initially that he walked 19 with Pauline Newell and Tracy McAlpine. Pointed out 20 neither had mentioned him. Then stated he walked on his 21 own. Recalled seeing Marc Hobson and Allister Hanvey 22 but didn't walk with them. Also saw Stacey Bridgett and 23 Dean Forbes but didn't walk with them. Denies seeing 24 the fight in centre of town. Just people running about. 25 Was at the church when he saw this." 109 1 It goes on: 2 "Did not believe P46's account. He was evasive in 3 his answers and replies. He knows or witnessed more but 4 will not divulge it. No statement recorded." 5 Taking this stage by stage: in May, when you were 6 interviewed by this officer, you name these names, 7 Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes, Marc Hobson, 8 Allister Hanvey. It says there: 9 "Denies seeing the fight ... just people running 10 about." 11 Can you help us with this? What you have described 12 to us today is hearing a commotion, then walking back 13 down and what you saw was the line of police bringing 14 people back up. Can you tell us, please, where running 15 around comes into that? 16 A. The running about was probably what was the police 17 moving people up. I can't really recall, to be honest. 18 Q. Then if we look at page [03419], this is the note of the 19 policeman who gave you that questionnaire we were 20 looking at and this is his impression of you about that 21 discussion he had with you: 22 "Pro forma attached. When first spoken to, P46 did 23 not mention the party. He described coming home from 24 the Coach, getting off the bus with Tracey Clarke and 25 Kelly Lavery - going to Boss Hogg's for chips and walking 110 1 along Market Street in the direction of McConvilles. 2 Stated that when he was in the area of the church, he 3 heard a bottle breaking." 4 Now, can you help us with that? 5 A. I would have heard a bottle breaking in the whole 6 commotion. 7 Q. Was that part of the commotion? 8 A. It would have been, yes. 9 Q. "He states at that time he looked round, saw a commotion 10 and walked on with the two girls before going home. It 11 was put to him that he had not gone straight home and he 12 then accepted that at 2.15 to 2.30 he had gone to a 13 party at Tracy Newell's (McAlpine's) house." 14 What he is saying there is that the first time he 15 spoke to you, not only did you not say you had been to 16 the party, but more importantly you did not say you had 17 gone back down into the town. Can you tell us why you 18 didn't do that? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Is it because you had seen people you had recognised 21 involved in fighting? 22 A. I never seen any fighting. I don't know why I said. 23 Q. If you had seen anybody you recognised doing anything, 24 attacking someone or even just fighting with somebody 25 else, would you have told the police about it? 111 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Going on, it says: 3 "He outlined that Tracey Clarke, Tracy Newell, 4 Dean Forbes, Andrew Osborne, nickname Ossie, who was 5 with a girl called Judith from Edgarstown, 6 Pauline Newell were at the party. He denies that there 7 were others present whom he could not name because he 8 was drunk. He also stated that at some stage during the 9 party the fight was discussed. By whom he would not 10 say." 11 I asked you earlier about whether you were able to 12 tell your mother there had been a fight because you had 13 simply gathered it from what you had seen or whether it 14 was because somebody described it to you afterwards. 15 Does this help you with that? Could it have been 16 that at the party there was quite a discussion about the 17 fight? 18 A. At the party -- I was saying that earlier -- I never 19 really asked anybody anything about it. I didn't want 20 to know, to be honest. 21 Q. But was there discussion about it? 22 A. I would say there would have been. I don't know. 23 Q. Tell us what the discussion was? 24 A. I can't recall. 25 Q. He goes on here, you see: 112 1 "It was discussed that 'one of them boys' hit wee 2 Davy Woods ... and it was then the fight started." 3 So you were able to tell this officer, on 4 9th May 1997, that at the gathering at Tracy Newell's 5 house there was discussion of the fight and part of that 6 discussion was that one of them boys -- that would be 7 a Catholic -- hit wee Davy Woods and it was then the 8 fight started. 9 How were you able to tell the officer that? 10 A. It must have been something I heard, picked up. 11 Q. "During the course of our time with P46, he was very 12 nervous. He welled up with tears and blushed 13 frequently. At the end, it was put to him that he had 14 not been absolutely truthful with us. He did not 15 actually say that was the case, but remained silent 16 before apologising that he could not be of any more 17 help." 18 Now, we know from a lot of people who come here that 19 Portadown wasn't a place that encouraged people to go to 20 the police and tell on Protestants who got involved in 21 violence, let alone violence which led to death. 22 Is that what was going on here? 23 A. I don't know. Could have been. I don't know. 24 Q. Let me ask you again. Is this the position: that when 25 you went back down to see what was going on with the 113 1 commotion, you got close to it and you saw people 2 fighting whom you could identify, and when the police 3 came and asked you about it, you were caught in a real 4 bind, because if you told the police what you had seen, 5 you would be in trouble in the community, but you wanted 6 to help the police, and what you ended up doing was 7 being evasive and blushing and apologising to them? 8 What do you say about that? 9 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember that 10 there interview with the police. 11 Q. Why was your mother concerned to ring the police? 12 A. I would say any mother would be concerned. She phoned 13 them up. What she said to me after -- she just wanted 14 to know why they wanted to talk to me. She was, like, 15 reassured over the phone and that my name wasn't being 16 bandied about too much. She just wanted to make sure 17 I wasn't in trouble, basically. 18 Q. That's it, isn't it? She was worried to make sure you 19 weren't known in the community as naming anybody who had 20 murdered Mr Hamill? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Well, why would she be worried about your name being 23 bandied about the place? 24 A. She was worried about me. She is my mother. 25 Q. She was not worried you had actually done anything, was 114 1 she? 2 A. No, she believed me when I said I didn't. 3 Q. What else could she have been worried about? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. If we look at page [09129], we have the second page of 6 the statement of Pauline Newell here? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we have a date for this? 8 MR UNDERWOOD: I am sorry. It is a statement made on 9 20th May 1997. If we look at the second half of this, 10 halfway down this section she says: 11 "I slept ..." 12 This is at the house that the gathering was at: 13 "I slept and woke some time around 5.00 am. I got 14 up to get a drink of water and came downstairs to get 15 one. In the living room I saw a number of people. 16 I don't know who had let them in, but remember seeing 17 Allister Hanvey", you, "'Fonzy', Chris Henderson and 18 Dean Forbes." 19 Now, Chris Henderson was a friend of yours, wasn't 20 he? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. There are you in the living room with Allister Hanvey, 23 "Fonzy" Allen and your friend Chris at 5 o'clock in the 24 morning, so three hours or so after the fight had taken 25 place. There must have been quite some discussion about 115 1 this fight, must there not? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. What did you do at this? Did you sit there silently 4 looking at each other. 5 A. Seriously, I don't know. 6 Q. Giving a Catholic a good kicking would have been quite 7 a topic of conversation, wouldn't it? No? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. If we look at page [00262], this is the statement of 10 Tracey Clarke made on 10th May 1997, so two days after 11 Mr Hamill died of his injuries. 12 If we pick it up halfway down this on the right-hand 13 side: 14 "Pauline Newell went into Boss Hogg's and got chips 15 and we waited for her. We walked up as far as the 16 Mandarin House in West Street. I think at that stage 17 the other persons with me were Pauline Newell, 18 Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery, Shelley Liggett and 19 a fellow called Jason. I would say that it was about 20 1.45 am approx when we were in West Street, as the bus 21 got in at about 1.30 am. Around this time we heard 22 shouting coming from the main street. I can't remember 23 what was said, but it was something like, 'Fight, 24 Fight'." 25 So here she is putting herself and all of these 116 1 other people, some of whom you have mentioned being with 2 that evening, up West Street hearing something like, 3 "Fight, fight". What she says is: 4 "We all ran down to see what was happening." 5 You ran down to see what was happening, as you have 6 told us. She goes on: 7 "When we got as far as the church, I could see 8 a crowd", overleaf, [00263], "at the junction of 9 Thomas Street/Market Street. I met up with 10 Stephen Bloomer at Poundstretcher and I just sat down 11 beside him. I saw two people lying on the street. One 12 was near the centre of the road and the other was near 13 the footpath close to Eastwoods. The person I saw in 14 the middle of the road I thought was dead as he was not 15 moving. 16 "It was at this time I saw a number of persons 17 gathered around the person lying in the centre of the 18 road. These persons were kicking the person on the 19 ground around the head and body. I saw them jump on the 20 person on the ground. They jumped all over him and 21 kicked him. I saw the persons who were doing this and 22 I can identify them as (1) Dean Forbes, (2) 23 Allister Hanvey, (3) Stacey Bridgett, (4) 'Muck'", 24 that's Marc Hobson, "(5) Rory Robinson." 25 Is that not what you saw as well? 117 1 A. No, I can't recall seeing that there. 2 Q. But she is describing almost exactly the incident and 3 the way in which she came to see it -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- as you -- how is it she could have experienced all 6 this and you not? 7 A. I don't know. At the time I was there, the ambulance 8 and all was there. 9 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. I have no further questions. 10 Thank you. 11 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON 12 MR FERGUSON: You were asked at one time if you had seen 13 anybody you knew fighting, or, indeed, if you had seen 14 any fighting, would you have told the police about it, 15 and your answer was, "I don't know". 16 Why wouldn't you have told the police if you had 17 seen anything of that nature? 18 A. It was like 12 years ago. I don't -- I can't honestly 19 answer what I would say at that stage, whether I would 20 have or whether I wouldn't have. I don't know. 21 Q. Well, did you not think it was your responsibility to 22 cooperate with the police and to help them with their 23 enquiries? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Well, why then would you say, "I don't know if I would 118 1 have told them"? 2 A. Because back then I don't honestly know if I would have 3 told them or not. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: You must have a reason for saying, "I don't 5 know if I would have told them". We want to know from 6 you the reason. 7 A. I just don't know. I suppose. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: You suppose what? 9 A. I suppose -- like I say, back then, I don't -- I don't 10 know. I don't know I would want to see anybody get into 11 trouble. I don't know what I would say back then. 12 MR FERGUSON: You didn't see any obligation on you to assist 13 the police in this matter? 14 A. It is, like -- you are obliged to help them, like. 15 Q. I am sorry? 16 A. You would be obliged to help. You would have to help 17 them, like. 18 Q. Why, then, did you say, "I don't know"? 19 A. Because back then when we were young, just -- I don't 20 know if I would have said. 21 Q. Or is it the position that back then you and a large 22 part of the Protestant population were not prepared to 23 cooperate with the police? Is that the reason? 24 A. I can't answer that. 25 Q. Why not? 119 1 A. Like I said, back then, I don't know if I would have 2 wanted -- you know, said or not. 3 Q. That's the only answer you can give? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 MR FERGUSON: Thank you. 6 MR ADAIR: No questions. 7 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY 8 MR McGRORY: I have a few questions for you, Mr Sinnamon, on 9 behalf of the Hamill family. 10 Now, you were on the bus on the way back from the 11 Coach. Isn't that correct? 12 A. That's right, yes. 13 Q. Where did the bus drop you off? 14 A. I am not really sure. 15 Q. Can I help you with that? We have had a lot of evidence 16 about that. Was it on High Street at all? 17 A. It would have been on the High Street, yes. I would say 18 so. 19 Q. In order to get from -- can you remember just where on 20 High Street? 21 A. I can't remember exactly where, being honest. I think 22 it was -- I think it might have been by -- I think it 23 might have been by the Country Fried Chicken, although 24 I am not 100% about that. 25 Q. Do you know Boss Hogg's chip shop? 120 1 A. I remember it was either -- was Boss Hogg's there where 2 the Country Fried is now, or was -- because -- 3 Boss Hogg's, it was either where the Subway is now or it 4 was -- 5 Q. I don't need to know the precise location. 6 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, it is now Subway. 7 MR McGRORY: It is now the Subway. That does help. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In order to get from where the bus left you off, you had 10 to walk past Boss Hogg's chip shop. Isn't that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You had to walk past down past the junction of 13 Thomas Street, High Street and Market Street. Isn't 14 that right? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Then you had to walk on up towards the church? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. In order to get down to McConvilles, you would then have 19 had to have walked down West Street? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, when you first began to give your evidence, you 22 said you were alerted to something going on when you 23 reached McConvilles at the bottom of West Street. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you remember saying that earlier on? 121 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, are you saying that at that point at McConvilles 3 you could hear something? 4 A. At McConvilles? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Yes, I would have. 7 Q. What did you hear exactly? 8 A. I heard like there would have been shouting and I heard 9 a bottle smashing and ... 10 Q. You see, a little later in your evidence you agreed with 11 the police document at [03419] that you -- perhaps we 12 could have it back up -- that in the area of the church 13 you heard a bottle breaking. You then agreed that 14 that's where you heard the bottle breaking. 15 A. It must have been. It was around that area, yes. 16 Q. That's quite a different place than McConvilles. So why 17 did you tell us, when you first gave evidence, that you 18 were first alerted to something going on down at 19 McConvilles? 20 A. It was just McConvilles. It is in the same road, pretty 21 much the same place. 22 Q. I am suggesting to you that's not correct. It is quite 23 a distance down. 24 Isn't it correct that you were putting yourself as 25 far away as you could from the incident when you said 122 1 you were first alerted to it when you were at 2 McConvilles? 3 A. No. I thought it was McConvilles. I remember it as 4 McConvilles. 5 Q. So that was a mistake? 6 A. Sorry? 7 Q. That was a mistake then? 8 A. What was? 9 Q. When you said it was McConvilles. 10 A. It could have been. It was either there or at the 11 church, yes. I can't remember exactly where. 12 Q. Well, I am suggesting to you, Mr Sinnamon, those answers 13 reveal you are being as evasive as possible. 14 A. I am sorry? 15 Q. You are not going to be caught saying you were anywhere 16 near this fight, are you? You had been caught out when 17 this document was put to you, when it was shown to you 18 that you told the police you were at the church when you 19 heard the bottle. Isn't that right? 20 A. Sorry. Can you repeat that? 21 Q. You were telling this Inquiry first of all you were away 22 down at McConvilles and you had to come all the way 23 back. Isn't that right? That's what you told the 24 Inquiry first. 25 A. Yes. 123 1 Q. Then it was pointed out to you that you told the police 2 you were at the church when you heard the bottle break. 3 You had to accept that? 4 A. I was in one of the two places. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we just see the plan again, please? 6 MR McGRORY: Yes. Can we have the plan back up, please? 7 Perhaps the area of West Street and St Mark's Church 8 could be highlighted, that particular square. Thank 9 you. 10 Now, when you first gave your evidence, you said you 11 were as far down as McConvilles, which is the "PH" at 12 the very bottom of West Street 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. I am suggesting to you that you told the Inquiry, when 15 you began your evidence, that you were away down there 16 to make sure that you were as far away as possible? 17 A. No. 18 Q. So that you wouldn't be asked about what you had seen. 19 You weren't -- you didn't realise you were about to be 20 shown that, in fact, you told the police you were back 21 up at the church. Isn't that correct? 22 A. No. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me, Mr McGrory? Is there 24 a premises known as McConvilles or is McConvilles a way 25 of referring to McConville Street. 124 1 MR McGRORY: No, there is a public house on that corner 2 called McConvilles, and it is there to this day. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 4 MR McGRORY: Perhaps I could have [03419] back on the 5 screen, please, the bottom half: 6 "It was discussed that one of them boys hit wee 7 Davy Woods from [blank] and that it was then the fight 8 started. During the course of our time with P46, he was 9 very nervous, he welled up with tears and blushed 10 frequently." 11 Do you remember this exchange with the police, 12 Mr Sinnamon? 13 A. I can't remember that particular one. 14 Q. The police came back to speak to you a second time 15 because of this, because they thought you knew a lot 16 more than you were telling them. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, you have an opportunity here, Mr Sinnamon, today, 19 to tell us what you did see. 20 The Hamill family are here. Mr Hamill was kicked 21 and beaten on this night and he died some ten days 22 later. It is one of the purposes of this Inquiry to 23 find out what exactly happened. 24 The police clearly believed that you were nervous, 25 that you were blushing, that tears welled up in your 125 1 eyes and you felt you could not tell them any more, but 2 that you had information that you could have given them. 3 Do you accept that they took that view? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What age were you then? 6 A. I would have been about 18, 19 or something. 7 Q. That would be quite a weight on your shoulders then, 8 wouldn't it, to have known who had killed somebody? 9 A. I didn't know. 10 Q. I am suggesting to you that you probably did. You 11 certainly knew who was involved, and some of them were 12 at the party you attended. Isn't that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, how do you know they were involved? 15 A. Sorry? 16 Q. I asked you that some of those who were involved 17 attended the party and you said, "Yes". How did you 18 know that? 19 A. Some of the boys who were there was coming back, being 20 pushed back by the police that were at the party. 21 Q. Well, now, for most of your evidence this afternoon, 22 Mr Sinnamon, you have told us you saw nothing and heard 23 nothing but the smashing of a bottle. 24 Now you tell us that you saw boys being pushed back 25 by the police. Whom exactly did you see being pushed 126 1 back by the police? 2 A. I don't know who it was exactly. It was dark. I was 3 very, very drunk. Like I said to the police at the 4 time, I couldn't remember. 5 Q. But you have just told us they were some of the same 6 boys that were at the party. Isn't that right? 7 A. What? 8 Q. You have just told us that some of the boys that were at 9 the party were among those being pushed back by the 10 police. 11 A. That's what it says. 12 Q. Where does it say it? 13 A. It was in one of the other things there. 14 Q. No, no. It is only suggested to you that certain 15 individuals were at the party. Nobody is suggesting to 16 you in this document that those people attacked 17 Robert Hamill. 18 Now, you have disclosed a knowledge to us just now 19 that some of those people who were at the party were 20 involved in the attack on Robert Hamill, I am suggesting 21 to you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not quite sure that's right. He has 23 said they were being pushed back by the police. 24 MR McGRORY: Well, that's -- 25 THE CHAIRMAN: That can include spectators. 127 1 MR McGRORY: I accept that, sir. That's the next step. 2 Let's take step one. What you have disclosed to us is 3 that some people who were at the party were being pushed 4 back by the police. Isn't that right? 5 A. Like I said, I can't remember who exactly I seen at the 6 time. 7 Q. Well, that's not true, is it? Because when I asked you 8 earlier about the people at the party, and when you said 9 they were involved in the incident concerning 10 Robert Hamill, and I asked you for details, you said 11 they were being pushed back by the police. That was the 12 first time you disclosed that. 13 So are you now withdrawing from that or is that your 14 evidence? 15 A. What's that there, sorry? 16 Q. That some of those at the party were being pushed back 17 by the police, that you saw them. 18 A. I said earlier I couldn't tell you who exactly was there 19 being pushed back by the police. 20 Q. But you have already told us that some of those who were 21 there who were involved were being pushed back by the 22 police, so how do you know that if you didn't see them 23 being pushed back by the police? 24 A. I don't know who it was being pushed back at the time. 25 I can't recall. 128 1 Q. Can I suggest to you who they might have been? 2 Allister Hanvey. He was at the party, wasn't he? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was he one of those you saw being pushed back by the 5 police? 6 A. I am not sure. Could have been. 7 Q. Dean Forbes? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Was he at the party? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Did you see him being pushed back by the police? 12 A. I can't recall. I don't think so. 13 Q. Andrew Allen. Did you see him being pushed back by the 14 police? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Marc Hobson. Did you see him being pushed back by the 17 police? 18 A. (Witness shakes head). 19 Q. Then who was it, Mr Sinnamon, that you did see being 20 pushed back by the police who was at the party? 21 A. I don't know. I don't know who it was. I remember 22 seeing -- I don't know. I can't put a -- I can't put 23 a face. 24 Q. I am going to give you one last opportunity, because we 25 are not going to spend all afternoon going round in 129 1 circles, Mr Sinnamon, because you are not going to tell 2 us the truth of what you saw. You have one last 3 opportunity to tell this Inquiry what it was you 4 actually saw. You are not going to do it, are you? 5 A. What's that? 6 Q. Tell us what you actually saw. 7 A. I am not going to make something up. I am not going to 8 make it up. 9 MR McGRORY: No further questions. 10 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chairman. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb? 12 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB 13 MR McCOMB: Perhaps just a couple of questions, sir. 14 You have been asked today to cast your mind back and 15 to look at material which you provided the police with 16 either by way of question and answer, whatever it was, 17 at an early stage after this incident. Is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You have been shown those today. Have you looked at 20 those recently? Have you looked at anything recently? 21 A. I haven't seen anything, no. 22 Q. Yes. Have you thought about what has happened and 23 thought about the Robert Hamill affair over the years? 24 A. Not really, no. 25 Q. In your answers to the various counsel who have asked 130 1 you questions this afternoon, have you had in your mind 2 a clear picture of what was happening that night? Have 3 you seen what was happening or are you trying to answer 4 questions based on what you have been shown from various 5 documents? 6 A. I can't -- my mind at the time whenever the police was 7 talking to me, I told them -- I am saying we were very 8 young and very, very drunk. I know it is no real 9 excuse, but I couldn't even remember at the time. 10 Q. I am not asking you about being young and very drunk. 11 I am asking you: do you have in your mind, when you are 12 trying to assist the Inquiry which is seeking to find 13 out what happened this night, a picture when you say 14 that, "Such and such a person was there. I was in such 15 a position", do you have a clear picture of that at all? 16 A. No. 17 MR McCOMB: Thank you. 18 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one matter. One of the documents we saw 20 on the screen spoke of you as a young man, as we know, 21 18, who was tearful and embarrassed and apologised. 22 Some people might see that as a picture of a young man, 23 a decent young man, who was feeling guilty because he 24 dare not say more. 25 Would that be a fair reading of it? 131 1 A. It was like I said. When the police was -- I knew the 2 police didn't believe me at the time. They were putting 3 an awful pressure on me. There was nothing I could 4 really tell them. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you. 6 MR UNDERWOOD: No further questions. Thank you. Thank you, 7 Mr Sinnamon. 8 A. Thank you. 9 (The witness withdrew) 10 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today, sir. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, if it is convenient, I would 12 quite like to rise earlier for lunch tomorrow, say about 13 12.50 pm. 14 MR UNDERWOOD: Certainly. Thank you very much. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 am. 16 (3.50 pm) 17 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am tomorrow morning) 18 19 --ooOoo-- 20 I N D E X 21 22 MR WAYNE DAVID LUNT (sworn) ...................... 1 23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 29 24 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 33 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 39 25 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 58 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD ....... 59 132 1 MS ANNE MURIEL BOWLES (sworn) .................... 60 2 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 60 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 72 3 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 76 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 77 4 MS ALISON ESTHER BOWLES (sworn) .................. 80 5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 80 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 91 6 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 92 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 96 7 MR STEPHEN TREVOR SINNAMON ....................... 97 8 (affirmed) Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 97 9 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 118 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 120 10 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 130 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 131 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133