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Hearing: 11th February 2009, day 14

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Wednesday, 11th February 2009

commencing at 9.30 am

Day 14

1 Wednesday, 11 February 2009

2 (9.30 am)

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. Joy Kitchen, please.

4 This will be page [80610].

5 MS JOY KITCHEN (affirmed)

6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. My name is Underwood. I am

8 counsel for the Inquiry. You are Mrs Smyth, now,

9 I think. Could you give us your full name, please?

10 A. Joy Smyth.

11 Q. If you look at the screen in front of you, there should

12 be a document which runs to three pages. Could I get

13 you to have a quick look at it, please?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that a witness statement you made for the Inquiry?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. I want you to look at paragraph 2, please,

20 on the first page.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You tell us there you were in a relationship with your

23 now husband in April 1997?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that you socialised with Andrea and Michael McKee

1 who you knew through a club?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you now don't have any contact with them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That is still correct, is it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What sort of closeness of relationship did you have

8 then? How often would you have seen them?

9 A. I would have seen them quite a lot when we were doing

10 classes at Tae Kwon Do and maybe socialise with them

11 once a month, once a couple of months, but it would have

12 been more in Tae Kwon Do, I would have seen them a lot

13 down at the club.

14 Q. If we have a look at page to [80611], paragraph 5. You

15 tell us that you went with your now husband on three or

16 four occasions to their house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But you have no recollection of the night we are

19 interested in, 26/27 April?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever stay overnight?

22 A. That is what I was trying to think the other night.

23 I think I recall staying one night. But again, it

24 probably would have been more down the line, whenever

25 I was going out with Rodney a lot longer. Definitely

1 I can't recall staying, I wouldn't have been staying at

2 that time because I was only going out with him a couple

3 of weeks or whatever.

4 Q. Okay. You tell us you don't ever recall watching

5 a boxing match at the McKees?

6 A. No.

7 Q. That's still the case? Still no memory of that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The final sentence I want you to ask you about. You say

10 you didn't have independent access to their house and do

11 not recall ever being in the home without Andrea or

12 Michael being present?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What we are concerned is whether on the night of 26/27

15 you and your now husband were there on your own?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. You are shaking your head quite violently there. That

18 is completely out of the question?

19 A. I can't ever remember and I definitely don't think

20 I would have been on our own so soon into the

21 relationship, you know.

22 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [21322]? If we can

23 highlight a passage that's -- there is a large passage

24 which has the word "Atkinson" to the side of it.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can I just ask you to look at that? I don't want to

2 read it out.

3 A. Rubbish -- a load of rubbish.

4 Q. The one that starts, "... went to get Rodney ... was

5 married ...".

6 A. No, he wasn't married.

7 Q. I want you to just read it to yourself, please. This is

8 part of an interview with Eleanor Atkinson, and it's

9 what she is saying about you. (Pause)

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Mm-hm.

12 Q. Now, with the help of that, can you tell us again how

13 clear you are, whether you did or did not stay on your

14 own with your now husband?

15 A. No, I wouldn't have stayed.

16 Q. We know that a taxi picked up a fare called Smyth from

17 the McKee household on the morning of 27 April at about

18 2.30 and took them to Thomas Street. Did either you or

19 your now husband live in Thomas Street at the time?

20 A. He did, yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Those are the questions I have for you. It

22 may be that other people have some more.

23 Examination by MR MALLON

24 MR MALLON: You say this was very early on in your

25 relationship?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When did you start spending nights together?

3 A. What do you mean?

4 Q. You say you wouldn't have stayed together on 26/27 April

5 --

6 A. I wouldn't have stayed at somebody else's house. If

7 I was staying I would have stayed at my boyfriend's

8 house.

9 Q. Now, how friendly were you with the McKees?

10 A. Well, I didn't really get really, really friendly with

11 them until I started going out with Rodney, because he

12 would have been more friendly with them before.

13 Q. Do you know if Rodney ever stayed overnight in their

14 house?

15 A. I don't think so. Not to my knowledge, no.

16 MR MALLON: Thank you.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising out of that, thank you.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.

19 A. Thank you.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Rodney Smyth next, please.

22 MR RODNEY SMYTH (affirmed)

23 Examination by Mr UNDERWOOD

24 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Smyth. My name is Underwood.

25 I am counsel for the Inquiry and I will be asking the

1 questions, at least in the first place.

2 Can I ask you to look at page [81189] on the screen?

3 If we scroll through that fairly quickly, I just want

4 you to see whether that is your statement.

5 Is that your witness statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I want to ask you about some passages on the second

10 page, [81190], paragraphs 5 through to 8, inclusive.

11 You say at paragraph 5 you knew Andrea and

12 Michael McKee through Tae Kwon Do, and by the end of

13 April 1997 you had been going out with your now wife for

14 a few weeks.

15 How closely did you know -- or how close was your

16 relationship, rather, with the McKees at that time?

17 A. Michael was my Tae Kwon Do instructor and his wife also

18 worked in the club. So within the Tae Kwon Do

19 fraternity, we were close friends.

20 Q. Did you socialise with them before you met your now

21 wife?

22 A. Possibly, yeah.

23 Q. Okay. You say in paragraph 6 that you and your now wife

24 went to the McKees' house a few times?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that correct, is it?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

3 Q. By a few, do you mean two or three?

4 A. Two or three.

5 Q. And then at the end of paragraph 6 you say you remember

6 the police showed you a taxi log with the name "Smith"

7 written on it. You couldn't confirm then that it

8 referred to you.

9 Can I put this to you: we know that the taxi log

10 shows a pick-up in the name of Smith at about 2.15,

11 I think, on the morning of 27 April, taking the fare to

12 Thomas Street. Your wife just told us that you lived in

13 Thomas Street at the time. That is correct, is it?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. Paragraph 7, you say you can't recall whether you went

16 to the McKees' house on the night of 26/27 April. Is

17 that still the best of your recollection?

18 A. It is, yes.

19 Q. You say it's possible you watched a boxing match as you

20 were keen on martial arts. Tell us about that. Do you

21 recall any occasion when you watched any martial arts

22 with the McKees?

23 A. Yes, I remember probably just watching boxing or

24 watching probably video tapes or whatever of Tae Kwon Do

25 and martial arts competitions on the TV, but on what

1 nights, dates or times, I can't recall when it was.

2 Q. Fair enough. Paragraph 8, you say that at no time did

3 you have access to the McKees' house when they were not

4 at home. Did you have a key?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did they ever lend you a key?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you say you don't ever recall being in their home

9 without Andrea or Michael being present?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember being present with just one of them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How clear are you that if you were there then, they

14 would have been there?

15 A. I would say 100 per cent.

16 Q. Can I ask you to look at a passage of an interview that

17 the police had with Eleanor Atkinson? It is at page

18 [21322]. She says something here about you and your

19 wife. It is a passage we will highlight. Can I get you

20 to read to yourself what she said there? (Pause)

21 Now, with the aid of knowing what's said there,

22 would you like to tell us again what your recollection

23 is about whether you and your now wife ever spent time

24 at Andrea and Michael McKees' house without the McKees

25 being present?

1 A. No.

2 Q. One other matter I would like to ask you about. Can we

3 look at page [02636]? If we look at the second half of

4 the page from the words "subscriber check" down, this is

5 a police action record print from something called

6 a HOLMES system. Never mind the form of it for the

7 moment, but let me read it to you:

8 "Subscriber check on telephone number Mr R Smyth,

9 Portadown, now of [and it gives the address in

10 Portadown]. This number appears on 4 occasions on

11 telephone billing of Mr Robert Atkinson between

12 10-10-96 / 13-01-98."

13 Then it gives your present mobile number.

14 If we go down, the final two lines:

15 "Checked billings of R Atkinson for number [and

16 this is your telephone number]. This number is recorded

17 four times on 31 December 1997. See attached sheet for

18 details of calls."

19 What the police have discovered is on New Year's Eve

20 1997 somebody from Mr Atkinson's household called your

21 number four times. Have you any idea about that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you take calls from Mr Atkinson?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you know him?

1 A. I knew him, yes.

2 Q. At the end of 1997 were you friends?

3 A. I only knew him really through the Tae Kwon Do. We

4 weren't friends. Just socially through the Tae Kwon Do

5 club or through Tae Kwon Do events.

6 Q. Had he any reason to ring you to do with Tae Kwon Do?

7 A. If he was calling me, it could have been the only

8 reason, to do with the Tae Kwon Do.

9 Q. Were you ever asked at any point in 1997 by anybody

10 whether you had spent the night of 27 April 1997 at the

11 McKees or any time with them at the McKees?

12 A. No.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you very

14 much, but other people may have some.

15 Examination by MR MALLON

16 MR MALLON: With your permission, Chair.

17 On the night of 26/27, would it be fair to say you

18 have no recollection of being at the McKees' house?

19 A. I can't recall. I can't recall whether I was or wasn't.

20 Q. During that time, I think, in your statement you said

21 you had stayed with them up to four times; is that

22 correct?

23 A. I had been at the house. I hadn't actually -- you

24 know...

25 Q. You weren't, as it were, visiting them on a weekly basis

1 or on a regular basis?

2 A. No, I wouldn't say that, no.

3 Q. Did you sometimes make arrangements to be there and then

4 change them; would that have happened? Can you

5 remember?

6 A. It's possible. I can't recall.

7 Q. Mr McKee appears to have been a person who was

8 travelling around doing Tae Kwon Do classes everywhere,

9 and on occasions he wouldn't have returned home. Did

10 you ever arrive up at his house unannounced?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Would you have made a telephone call to his house to say

13 -- or to arrange to meet him at his home?

14 A. I can't -- I don't think I would have, no, but I can't

15 really --

16 Q. If you were going out on, say, the evening of 26/27 to

17 call at his house with a view to staying, drinking, and

18 taking a taxi there and taking a taxi back, would you do

19 that on speculation or would you contact them first, to

20 make sure, firstly, they would be in?

21 A. It would probably have been arranged.

22 Q. Yes, it would have been arranged. Were there any

23 telephone records at this time indicating that you had

24 contacted the McKees or do you remember ringing anyone?

25 A. No.

1 Q. So on 26/27 you don't remember ringing to make an

2 arrangement?

3 A. It would probably have been word of mouth through the

4 week or something in the club.

5 Q. If in fact it was planned and if you were going, you

6 would have arranged that by word or mouth or --

7 A. Probably, yes.

8 Q. Did you have their telephone numbers?

9 A. Probably.

10 Q. And did you ring their telephone numbers?

11 A. I can't really recall. Most times whenever -- if I needed

12 to speak to him or see him about anything it was always

13 at the club.

14 Q. Always at the club. So the contact was at the club.

15 But if you were going out socially to their home, would

16 that have been an informal or more formal occasion?

17 A. I don't really understand.

18 Q. If you were bringing, say, your new girlfriend -- at

19 that time she was your new girlfriend -- to meet them --

20 was that the first time -- I think you had been going

21 for three or four weeks?

22 A. I think I would have to say yes, aye.

23 Q. It is not something you would leave to chance, is it?

24 A. I don't understand.

25 Q. Would you have rung them to make sure they were there?

1 A. Yes, it was probably arranged, probably in the club.

2 I wouldn't...

3 Q. Now, do you have any recollection of when your

4 girlfriend first met the McKees?

5 A. When Joy -- I can't remember what date or when Joy

6 actually met them, as far as being a member or a student

7 of the club, no.

8 Q. Let's get back to the night of 26/27. As I understand

9 your evidence, you have no recollection of going to

10 their house?

11 A. I can't remember being there on that night.

12 Q. And you have no recollection of Joy going with you to

13 that house?

14 A. I can't recall.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean that night?

16 MR MALLON: That night, yes.

17 A. I can't recall, no. As I said before, it's possible,

18 but I just can't recall being there on the night.

19 Q. So if that was probably the first time you were going as

20 a couple to the house, it's something that might tend to

21 stick in your memory.

22 A. I can't -- I can't recall. I couldn't even remember, it

23 was only until Joy said even what date we started going

24 out with each other.

25 Q. It's being suggested to you that you were picked up by

1 taxi and taken to Thomas Street?

2 A. Mm-hm.

3 Q. Now, the taxi driver has no recollection of picking you

4 up. Do you have any recollection of being picked up?

5 A. I can't -- I can't -- I have thought and I can't recall

6 because if I could recall being -- if I could recall

7 being at the house or being in the taxi, then the other

8 one would be -- you know what I mean. I can't recall.

9 If it was at quarter past 2 in the morning and if I was

10 drinking and had to get a taxi, there's -- you know,

11 memory just mightn't have been just as sharp. I can't

12 recall, no, getting into the taxi that night.

13 Q. Now, I know you can't recall that.

14 A. Mm-hm.

15 Q. Do you recall the next time, after 26 or 27 April, when

16 you went next or after that period, I'm not saying --

17 I said "next", but it was a wrong word -- an occasion

18 after that when you went to their house.

19 A. No. I can't remember the next time I was there.

20 Q. So you have really no recollection of doing a lot of

21 socialising in their house?

22 A. Not a big -- you know, it could have been a week after,

23 two weeks after, three weeks after. I am sure I was

24 there after that date, but on what date or what days,

25 I can't recall.

1 MR MALLON: Thank you.

2 Examination by MR BERRY

3 MR BERRY: Mr Smyth, is it fair to say if you went to the

4 McKee house and had a few drinks, that under those

5 circumstances you would have got a taxi back to

6 Thomas Street?

7 A. That's correct.

8 MR BERRY: Thank you.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you very much.

10 Questions from THE PANEL

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one thing. If you booked a taxi by

12 phone, would you give your name?

13 A. Yes, sir, I would. I would give my surname. If it was

14 me booking it myself, I would book it under my name.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you spell it for them?

16 A. Pardon?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: What would you say?

18 A. "Could I book a taxi for Smyth?", and then they would

19 ask where you were going to and give my address.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you spell your name for them?

21 A. No.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Just Smyth?

23 A. Just Smyth.

24 BARONESS RICHARDSON: I wonder if you could tell us when you

25 first heard of the events that had happened in

1 Thomas Street on that night?

2 A. I would have to -- as I said, I probably heard when

3 I got back into work.

4 BARONESS RICHARDSON: When you got back in the taxi, nothing

5 strikes you as being unusual about the street at all on

6 that street, there were no people milling about, no

7 police presence, nothing happening?

8 A. I can't recall anything.

9 BARONESS RICHARDSON: Because often people recall where they

10 were when they hear of something happening, and they

11 say, "oh yes, I was...", but it didn't strike you as

12 being important, stick in your mind?

13 A. No.

14 BARONESS RICHARDSON: Thank you.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I just follow up on that? In

16 Thomas Street, which is, as we know, quite a long

17 street, were you towards the crossroads end?

18 A. It was directly opposite the fire station.

19 Q. And when the taxi took you in, did it take you through

20 the town?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: That was a silly question. In those days

23 were the barriers shut?

24 A. I would assume they were.

25 MR UNDERWOOD: And could a taxi have gone through the town

1 if the barriers were shut?

2 A. If I was a taxi driver and I was coming back from that

3 area and the barriers were shut, no, you would have to

4 go in down round by Meadow Lane.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you. Unless there's anything arising

6 out of that.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No.

8 MR BERRY: Sir, I wonder, I have just one matter arising out

9 of that. I hope to clarify something. You mentioned

10 the fire station?

11 A. Mm-hm.

12 MR BERRY: Is it correct that from the fire station end of

13 Thomas Street, you wouldn't have a view down to the

14 British Legion and then down towards the centre of the

15 town?

16 A. No, because the flat that I lived in, the actual side

17 window of the house looks straight into the street

18 across from me. The front of the window -- there was --

19 that's the only window. The other window in the hall

20 and the bedroom was directly facing at the fire station,

21 so if you had looked that way, the furthest you could

22 have seen would probably have been the telephone box at

23 the corner of the swimming pool.

24 MR BERRY: Thank you very much.

25 A. So no.

1 MR MALLON: Just one small matter arising with your

2 permission, Chair.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Tell me what the question is.

4 MR MALLON: Did you see any flashing lights or did you hear

5 anything to indicate any form of disturbance on that

6 night?

7 A. No, I can't recall.

8 MR MALLON: Thank you.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: I think that really is the end of your

11 evidence, Mr Smyth.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I should go while the going is good.

13 A. Thank you.

14 (The witness withdrew)

15 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Catherine Jagger next, please.

16 MS CATHERINE JAGGER (sworn)

17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Jagger, good morning. My name is

19 Underwood, I am counsel for the Inquiry. Could you ask

20 you your full names, please.

21 A. Catherine Sarah Jagger.

22 Q. I know that you have come in rather earlier than

23 expected. I hope you have had time to catch your

24 breath?

25 A. Yes, I have just arrived.

1 Q. I want you to look at a statement which will come up on

2 the screen at page [80553], please. If I get the screen

3 scrolled through for you, can you identify whether

4 that's your statement?

5 A. It is, yes.

6 Q. Is it true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we can go back to the first page, please, [80553] you

9 tell us in paragraph 2 you are a solicitor in Wrexham.

10 I want to look at paragraphs 4 and 5, if I may.

11 Paragraph 4, you say you were contacted in relation

12 to Andrea McKee on 29 March 2001. You had previously

13 been involved in two national crime squad referrals with

14 that officer. Was your experience that you had acted

15 for people who were to be prosecuted but who were

16 intended to give Queen's evidence?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was that how this was, as it were, presented to you?

19 A. Yes, I suppose so.

20 Q. If we look at paragraph 5, you say you were told,

21 presumably by that officer, that the case concerned an

22 offence of perverting the course of justice?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you take us to your notes at [73011]. Perhaps we

25 could have a look at those. There's a box with "K" in

1 it and then "brief re case in Northern Ireland", is

2 that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What are the two lines following that?

5 A. "Pervert course of justice, supporting police officer,

6 alibi following sectarian killing four years ago."

7 Q. Right. Then if we go back to your page [80553],

8 paragraph 5, final sentence, you tell us that, at that

9 stage, you knew that your client had already made

10 a statement admitting her involvement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that point, did you realise that that had not

13 been made under caution, can you tell us?

14 A. At that stage, I don't know. I am not sure that I would

15 have known or not, but I don't think I knew at that

16 stage.

17 Q. Right. Then if we go over to page [80554] and highlight

18 paragraph 7, you tell us that a couple of weeks later,

19 on 10 April at 9 o'clock you attended the police

20 station, met with that police officer and a DCI, who we

21 are calling "K", who gave you a full briefing, albeit

22 you weren't shown any statements and had no

23 instructions.

24 Are you likely to have been told by then, can you

25 tell us, whether she had made the statements or

1 statement not under caution?

2 A. I honestly don't know. Possibly not.

3 Q. Okay. It goes on:

4 "It was made very clear to me that the client would

5 be prosecuted and that it was hoped that she would agree

6 to be a witness in the linked cases."

7 In the briefing, can you help us whether you can

8 recall that you were told what sort of case they had

9 against her?

10 A. Again, I don't know at that stage whether I would have

11 known until I saw the full statements later on.

12 Q. All right. Then if we go down to paragraph 9 and

13 highlight the first paragraph of that, you tell us --

14 sorry, first sentence, I meant. That's fine:

15 "I met Mrs McKee for the first time on 10 April

16 [later that day therefore]... I received the disclosures

17 as listed on a disclosure schedule, being some 17

18 documents."

19 So at that point, that disclosure schedule, although

20 we haven't got it, is likely to have included the

21 statement or statements she had already made, not under

22 caution, I take it?

23 A. I believe so, yes.

24 Q. Then we go over the page to [80555] and if I can look at

25 paragraphs 10 and 11 to start with. You tell us in

1 paragraph 10 that you were satisfied that you were given

2 adequate disclosure and sufficient time to prepare her

3 for the interview, and you spent a couple of hours

4 discussing the options and procedures in full with her.

5 Now, pausing there, so at that stage we can take it,

6 can we, that you knew that she had made admissions, but

7 not under caution?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that the police wanted to prosecute her?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would it have crossed your mind to advise her that she

12 didn't have to make any admissions?

13 A. Yes. There would be -- I don't recall specifically, but

14 there may well have been discussions about admissibility

15 of those statements in due course, but it just became

16 irrelevant because that's what she wanted to do during

17 that interview.

18 Q. Just -- I suspect everybody in the room probably is

19 a lawyer, but in case anybody is not, who is

20 particularly interested in this question, where you have

21 a client who has made admissions in police interview or

22 in a statement, not under caution, and those admissions

23 are of a criminal offence, and they then come to you

24 with a view to an interview about that, what would have

25 been your understanding in 1997 of the ability of the

1 client to refuse to answer more questions about that?

2 A. She would have been able not to have answered any more

3 questions about it.

4 Q. And what would have been your view in 1997 with the

5 admissibility of the statements made not under caution?

6 A. There was a good chance they would not have been

7 admissible.

8 Q. And can you recall now, having read the disclosure

9 bundle of those 17 documents you told us about, when you

10 were consulting with your client, whether or not there

11 was a case against her, other than what she had said in

12 her not under caution statements?

13 A. In the sense of there were phone call records and issues

14 to do with -- having read and refreshed my memory

15 slightly, something to do with a taxi cab being called

16 from her home address, perhaps at relevant times that

17 proved she wasn't where she said she should have been in

18 relation to the alibi. That in particular, and possibly

19 that there were other people at her home that she phoned

20 the taxi for.

21 Q. All right. I'm sorry, you told us a couple of minutes

22 ago that all of this became irrelevant because she

23 wanted to go in and co-operate. Can you give us an

24 impression of the way the two hours went with her? Was

25 she, at the outset, saying, "I want to get this off my

1 chest", or was it gradual or what?

2 A. If I am 100 per cent honest, I can't recall those two

3 hours' worth of conversation.

4 Q. How clear are you that at the end of those two hours,

5 this was a lady who intended to co-operate with the

6 police?

7 A. I was 100 per cent clear that's what she wanted to do.

8 Q. You say in paragraph 11 you confirm there were no offers

9 of immunity from prosecution or a deferring of any

10 sentence. Was there any discussion with the police

11 about that at all, can you recall?

12 A. I don't believe so. I think it was made clear from the

13 outset that she would be prosecuted, but it was

14 obviously hoped that there would be more leniency if she

15 co-operated thereafter.

16 Q. If we look at paragraph 13 now, you say you spoke to

17 a Detective Chief Superintendent Stewart and drafted

18 a letter for him, and just to make life harder for the

19 technology people, I am going to ask you to look at that

20 as well. Perhaps we could go to page [73017] and split

21 the screen with 72018.

22 Is this the letter that you sent off to Detective

23 Chief Superintendent Stewart?

24 A. It is, yes.

25 Q. In the body of the text on [73017] you say:

1 "In order to assist in this matter we would ask you

2 to consider including the following information ..."

3 This was in a letter written by him to the judge:

4 "1. Andrea McKee was very much on the periphery

5 i.e. not the main player and was just backing up her

6 husband.

7 "2. Any information you feel relevant about her

8 character, e.g. was she relieved to give a statement,

9 admitting her part in this offence. Furthermore, could

10 you say that you believe she regrets her actions and is

11 remorseful for what she did."

12 What made you think that the police were liable to

13 say that she was relieved to give a statement and that

14 they believed she regretted her actions and is

15 remorseful? Were you taking a punt there or had you in

16 your discussions with the police got the impression that

17 that was their feeling about her?

18 A. This was -- I was asking for them to give me a letter

19 which portrayed that, which would help her before the

20 judge with the leniency in due course.

21 Q. But were you just pushing your luck in asking for that,

22 or did you have reason to believe they would do it?

23 A. Perhaps I was pushing my luck asking for that.

24 Q. You got it in the end, didn't you?

25 A. I did, yes.

1 Q. If we look at paragraph 6:

2 "If you are able to confirm that Andrea McKee is

3 well aware that she could receive a prison sentence as

4 she has been charged with a serious offence and she still

5 agreed to co-operate knowing this to be the case."

6 On that point, can you tell us what you and

7 Mrs McKee discussed about that? Was she aware she was

8 likely to be sent to prison?

9 A. She was aware she could receive a prison sentence,

10 absolutely. I suppose it was perhaps hoped that the

11 leniency could be the difference between prison and not,

12 or between a shorter time. I don't recall specifically

13 the conversation.

14 Q. Okay. If we look at page [34070], just for good order,

15 could you confirm that that is the letter you received

16 back from Detective Chief Superintendent Stewart?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Now, if we go back to your

19 statement at page [80556], paragraph 17, you say there

20 that, in your view, the RUC appeared to be committed to

21 using Mrs McKee as a witness, who was to be given as

22 much credit as possible. Also she was committed to

23 acting as a witness, in your opinion. It seemed to you

24 that she knew that she had covered up something, and

25 felt bad about it and wanted to have it dealt with so

1 she could get on with her life.

2 We know, of course, in 1997 she gave what we are

3 calling an "alibi statement" in respect of Reserve

4 Constable Atkinson, and in June 2000 she then, as it

5 were, recanted that, and that's what led to you acting

6 for her.

7 In your dealings with her did she give you any

8 reason to doubt that the recantation from June 2000

9 onwards was false?

10 A. No.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you. Those are the questions I have

12 for you. It may be that there are some questions.

13 Examination by MR ADAIR

14 MR ADAIR: Mrs Jagger, you would have become aware from the

15 disclosure documents that Andrea McKee had made

16 a witness statement, first of all, to two police

17 officers in April 2000. You probably don't remember the

18 dates, but you became aware that she had made a witness

19 statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you recall being told by her that officers had

22 come over from Northern Ireland, and talked to her and

23 taken a witness statement from her?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you remember, even in general terms, being informed

1 that she had told the police the truth, or words to that

2 effect?

3 A. I don't recall. All I recall is that there was

4 a statement. I don't recall anything in relation to the

5 making of that.

6 Q. Had Andrea McKee any complaint about anything the

7 original police officers had either said or done when

8 taking that statement from her?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And my understanding from your overall impression from

11 what Andrea told you and what you found out was that no

12 offers, improper or otherwise, had been made to Andrea

13 by any police officer throughout the course of the

14 taking of statements from her?

15 A. No, no such offers had been made, as I understood it.

16 Q. It's clear also, I think, from what you have said in

17 your statement that there was a sense of relief on her

18 part to be telling the truth?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you remember, was that in part related to the fact

21 that she's now started a new life and is separated from

22 her husband?

23 A. Yes, I believe so.

24 MR ADAIR: Thank you.

25 Examination by MR MALLON

1 MR MALLON: Can you indicate to me how the relationship in

2 respect of Andrea McKee was initiated? Did you call her

3 or did she call you?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: It may not have been either of those.

5 MR MALLON: Well, then, can you indicate how the contact was

6 made? I mean, this is with your client.

7 A. Yes. As I have said in my statement, it was arranged

8 through the police and she was asked if she then wanted

9 me to represent her.

10 Q. So the police asked her if she wanted to be represented

11 by you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. She didn't come to you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Does that happen often?

16 A. Not realistically. It's explained in my statement.

17 I don't think I can say any more than that.

18 Q. You must have conducted cases which were not only in

19 Queen's evidence basis?

20 A. Absolutely, yes.

21 Q. So you would have been aware, would you, that when she

22 was being directed to you by the police, this was not

23 ordinary. This was not run-of-the-mill. This was

24 exceptional.

25 A. In what way do you mean "exceptional"? Yes, it was not

1 the normal route.

2 Q. It was an exception to the normal routine.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you feel in any way uncomfortable talking to the

5 police and discussing a case with them about someone who

6 was not your client, for some number of hours?

7 A. When I discussed the case in detail --

8 Q. No, we are not talking about detail.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let her finish her answer, please.

10 MR MALLON: Yes.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on.

12 A. I wasn't given full disclosure until it had been checked

13 that she wanted me to act for her.

14 MR MALLON: That wasn't the question I was asking. You were

15 brought into discussion with the police before your

16 client had even known of you or had requested you?

17 A. Briefly, yes.

18 Q. Where was that held?

19 A. There was a very brief meeting, as I referred to in my

20 notes, where the officer attended at my office,

21 would I be available at this point in the future, and

22 that very brief note that we have already referred to.

23 Q. That very brief note indicates that they had approached

24 you and they had talked to you, was it fairly general

25 terms?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. About you taking on a client who would be giving Queen's

3 evidence?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: We have that point already. Move on, please.

5 MR MALLON: Now, having established that in your own mind,

6 was there ever any realistic view held by you that she

7 was going to contest this case?

8 A. She could well have done. I wouldn't know that until

9 I met her.

10 Q. When you did meet her, did you put to her what the

11 police had already told you?

12 A. Absolutely. I sought her views on the evidence that

13 I had.

14 Q. And the police view was she wanted her to give evidence

15 and they wanted her not only to give evidence, but they

16 wanted it after a plea of guilty?

17 A. That may well have been what they wanted. Obviously

18 I advised her what was best for her.

19 Q. So when you know there's no contest in a case and there

20 is not going to be a contest in a case, and your client

21 has indicated to you, what is your next step, as

22 a professional solicitor?

23 A. I don't understand exactly what you are asking me.

24 Q. If you know that you are not going to be able to defend

25 the client against the police, that she is going to

1 enter a plea, would you ever consider bargaining with

2 regard to that, to try and get her a lighter sentence?

3 A. I wasn't involved later on when she came to court at

4 that stage.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, it's not possible to bargain with

6 the police to get a lighter sentence. One can ask the

7 police what they may be able to say in favour of the

8 person to be prosecuted, but the sentence is a matter

9 for the judge.

10 MR MALLON: Of course it is.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Do ask the question, please, more accurately.

12 MR MALLON: Let's say, would you bargain with the police

13 about what was to be put before the judge?

14 Is that more accurately, Mr Chairman? What I'm

15 trying to get to --

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there any discussion between you and the

17 police about how they might put her case or what they

18 might say in her favour to mitigate her offence?

19 A. Those discussions related along the lines of the letter

20 that I then wrote to them and then the letter they would

21 then put before the judge.

22 MR MALLON: So what you were trying to do was to get the

23 police to speak very well of your client, with a view to

24 a suspended sentence?

25 A. With a view to a more lenient sentence, yes.

1 Q. At all times your client made it absolutely clear to you

2 that she was going to plead guilty to the offence?

3 A. I believe so, yes.

4 Q. And when you transferred the papers to the solicitor in

5 Belfast, wasn't that also the case? It was on that

6 basis you instructed him that there was going to be

7 a plea?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you bring up page, please, [34354]? This is

10 a defence statement put in by the solicitor, who was

11 instructed by you, and in paragraph 1, that defence

12 statement says this:

13 "Entirely without prejudice to her rights to contest

14 the admissibility of the evidence upon which the

15 prosecution intends to rely upon herein, or to any part

16 thereof, and to her rights in respect of such issues as

17 the evidence may properly give rise to, the accused

18 states that she is not guilty of the charge alleged."

19 So she had obviously changed her instructions.

20 A. I wasn't even aware until this point that she pleaded

21 not guilty.

22 MR MALLON: Thank you.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Berry?

25 Examination by MR BERRY

1 MR BERRY: Mrs Jagger, I appear for Mrs McKee and I want to

2 ask you a number of questions, if I may.

3 Could I just establish some things, which I hope

4 will assist? In 2001 you were an experienced solicitor

5 in terms of dealing with criminal cases, I take it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that would have formed a large part of your

8 practice, presumably?

9 A. A proportion of it, yes, certainly.

10 Q. Yes. And as a solicitor, you obviously were aware that

11 you had duties to your client and, presumably, duties to

12 the court?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. For instance, to advise your client?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But also to act on your client's instructions?

17 A. Absolutely, yes.

18 Q. And as part of the advice you would have given your

19 client -- in this case Mrs McKee -- you would have

20 advised her as to the strengths and weaknesses of her

21 position?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is it your evidence today that having gone through

24 that process of advice, which presumably would have been

25 a natural process in advising a criminal client, she was

1 at all times clear that she wanted to plead guilty?

2 A. That is how I believed it, certainly, yes.

3 Q. And Mr Adair has asked you about her sense of relief

4 that you described in her statement. Could I ask you,

5 could you describe how that manifested itself, if you

6 can remember?

7 A. I don't recall, no.

8 Q. Now, there's no question in terms of you being

9 approached by the police, that you felt in any way

10 beholden to them to do their bidding?

11 A. Not at all, no.

12 Q. Can the Panel take it that at all times you kept in mind

13 your primary duty to Mrs McKee?

14 A. Absolutely, 100 per cent, yes.

15 Q. And to advise her properly in all the circumstances?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you have been shown a document, which is still on

18 the screen, a defence statement. Do you know whether

19 Mrs McKee ever saw that document?

20 A. I would have no idea.

21 Q. Yes. You know what a defence statement is?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Obviously it is a document submitted to the court?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I am not sure if the provisions in England and Wales

1 are the same as in Northern Ireland, but a defence

2 statement we are dealing with a period back in the early

3 2000s, in England and Wales, to the best of your

4 recollection, would that have been a fairly broad based

5 document in the sense similar to a defence in a civil

6 case?

7 A. Yes, in the Crown Court we would file a defence

8 statement, possibly only of a few lines, very, very

9 vague.

10 Q. Yes. It is a document often submitted to protect

11 a client's interest, in the most general sense?

12 A. Absolutely, yes.

13 Q. I know recently things have tightened up, much to the

14 annoyance of criminal lawyers, but in any event we are

15 dealing in 2001?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: They often used to reveal very little.

17 MR BERRY: I often prided myself as a junior, Mr Chairman,

18 on my ability to do that.

19 Can I ask you then about the draft letter you were

20 shown that you sent to the police? Again, you were

21 trying to do your best for your client at that stage?

22 A. Yes, I believe so.

23 Q. Are we absolutely clear, there was no deal that you were

24 aware of in terms of Mrs McKee being guaranteed that she

25 wouldn't receive a sentence of immediate custody?

1 A. No, there was no such deal.

2 Q. Was there anything in it for her, if I can put it as

3 crudely as that, that you are aware of, that led her to

4 make her admissions to police?

5 A. No, only the issue of certain leniency being given to

6 someone if they turned Queen's evidence. That's all.

7 Q. This may seem a startling proposition, but sometimes

8 people plead guilty because they did the thing and they

9 are genuinely remorseful; would you accept that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, if I may just digress a little, and ask you about

12 something which I hope you can deal with -- if you can't

13 deal with it, please stop me, and I am sure others will.

14 You are an experienced criminal solicitor, as we

15 have heard, and you are aware from your dealings with

16 Mrs McKee that she made a statement giving an alibi

17 to -- giving cover, as it were, for a telephone call

18 from the Atkinson house to the Hanvey house which was

19 made about 8.37 on 27 April 1997. You are aware, I take

20 it, that she did that in a statement made on

21 29 October 1997. Are you aware of that? It's page

22 [09200], if it could be brought up.

23 A. Yes, I am not aware of the specific dates.

24 Q. If we could just have that up. That's the statement

25 there.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That really gives the cover to the telephone call, if

3 I can put it like that.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, were you aware of the circumstances in which that

6 statement was made?

7 A. No. Oh --

8 Q. Let me enlighten you, if I may.

9 A. Is this issue to do with -- well, now I know something

10 to do with Sean Hagan's office and a police officer

11 being present.

12 Q. If I may put this position to you, and ask for your

13 comment on it as an experienced solicitor. This

14 statement was taken by a Detective Inspector Irwin at

15 the offices of a solicitor called Sean Hagan.

16 Sean Hagan was not the solicitor for Andrea McKee. She

17 was never his client. He in fact was the solicitor for

18 Robert Atkinson.

19 Now, were you aware of that?

20 A. If I think about it -- I am not sure.

21 Q. Okay. I want to ask you, as an experienced solicitor,

22 how comfortable would you feel in that position?

23 A. I wouldn't normally expect a police officer to take

24 a statement in a solicitor's office.

25 Q. What about with someone who wasn't your client being in

1 your office?

2 A. Well, I'd have a conflict.

3 Q. Yes. What about when you were representing someone who

4 in fact was being given cover, who was your client;

5 would you would you feel about that?

6 A. I wouldn't be comfortable, as a solicitor, with that.

7 Q. Why would that be?

8 A. Because it would be a clear conflict, I would have felt.

9 I think that person should have had separate

10 representation perhaps.

11 Q. If you were presented with that circumstance, would you

12 have advised that person to either make their statement

13 at the police station in what I might call the ordinary

14 way? If that is a term you object to, please tell me.

15 A. Yes, I would advise them to make it at the police

16 station.

17 Q. Or to see another solicitor?

18 A. Yes. If I was -- if I was Robert Atkinson's solicitor,

19 I would be suggesting that the witness went to the

20 police station.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. And if I was her solicitor, I expect I would send her to

23 the police station.

24 MR BERRY: Thank you very much.

25 MR MALLON: Mr Chairman, with your permission, just one

1 matter arising out of that, the relationship between the

2 solicitor and the statement being taken by the policeman

3 in his office.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: You had your chance, didn't you, earlier?

5 MR MALLON: Yes, but that matter hadn't arisen.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: It is there on the papers.

7 MR MALLON: It is, but it hadn't arisen with this witness.

8 I hadn't opened it, my friend hadn't opened it.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Tell me what the question is, and don't

10 answer until I have listened to the question.

11 MR MALLON: I have to put to you, the situation in Northern

12 Ireland is different from in England, and I would be

13 suggesting to the witness that this room was made

14 available as a facility, not a solicitor/client

15 relationship. It was made available as a safe place --

16 THE CHAIRMAN: How can this witness answer that question?

17 No. That's it.

18 MR MALLON: That's okay, as long as the matter is there.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mallon, help me about this, will you?

20 I have listened very carefully to the questions you have

21 put to this lady. I note that you have not made any

22 suggestion of any impropriety or bad faith on her part.

23 That is correct, is it?

24 MR MALLON: Yes, that is correct, on the solicitor's part.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

1 Thank you, you are free now to go.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Jagger, thank you very much for coming.

3 I know you have come across from North Wales for this.

4 I very much appreciate it.

5 A. Thank you.

6 (The witness withdrew)

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we are making excellent progress, and so

8 much so that Andrea McKee can be brought forward from

9 this afternoon, but not before 11 o'clock. May

10 I suggest --

11 THE CHAIRMAN: We will break off until 11 o'clock. Thank

12 you.

13 (10.26 am)

14 (A short break)

15 (11.30 am)

16 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Andrea McKee, please.

17 MRS ANDREA MCKEE (affirmed)

18 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

19 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mrs McKee. My name is

20 Underwood and I am counsel for the Inquiry. I will be

21 asking questions to start with and other people may ask

22 questions afterwards. Can you give us your full names,

23 please.

24 A. Andrea McKee.

25 Q. And I think you have come over from North Wales today?

1 Thank you very much for coming.

2 I want you to look, please, at a statement that we

3 will see on screen at page [81486]. We will just scroll

4 through this, and perhaps you could have a quick look at

5 the pages as they come up. I want you to identify that it

6 is your statement once we have seen it all.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (Pause)

9 Is that your statement?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. Is it true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. If we can start with the first page,

14 [81486], you refer there to a number of statements that

15 you have made before. What I want to do to start with

16 is just show you those statements to make sure we are

17 all talking about the same things.

18 The first one you mention is one of 29 October 1997.

19 Can I ask -- first of all, I think it would be a good

20 idea if we had the split screen here, with this on the

21 left-hand side, and on the right-hand side if we have

22 page [09200]. That is the first page of a statement,

23 29 October 1997 and that deals with who made a telephone

24 call on 27 April from the Atkinson household.

25 Do you want to have a look at that to familiarise

1 yourself with it?

2 A. I am familiar with it.

3 Q. Is that the one that you are talking about there; is

4 that the statement that you made on 29 October there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Then instead of that on the right-hand page,

7 we can have page [14956]. This is the first page of

8 a statement of 20 June 2000. Again, you can look at all

9 of this if you want to, but if you are familiar with it,

10 that's fine too. Is this a statement you are referring

11 to as the 20 June one?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Perhaps we can replace that one with page

14 [14908]. That's the first page of a statement of

15 25 October 2000, and again, by all means, if you want to

16 look through this, we can look through it. If you are

17 familiar with it, can you help us now about whether that

18 is a statement of 25 October?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. There's one other which you don't mention,

21 and perhaps we could look at page [19988] on the

22 right-hand side. This is a statement of 7 May 2002. It

23 starts:

24 "Earlier today I was convicted at Craigavon Crown

25 Court in relation to telling lies to the police in

1 1997."

2 Is that a statement you made then?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Finally, if we can have on the right-hand side, page

5 [20297]. That's a witness statement of 30 October 2002.

6 Is that the statement you are referring to in

7 paragraph 3 of your witness statement now?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Perhaps we can just go back to

10 having your page [81486] on there.

11 I want to ask you, first of all, how good your

12 memory is now about the events we are discussing of

13 April 1997 onwards?

14 A. Some things are clear and some things are not so clear.

15 Q. All right. Let's -- I want to take you from scratch, if

16 I may. If we have to go back to statements, we will, of

17 course, and I will show you some documents as we go

18 along. If you are uncertain about anything, or you

19 can't remember anything, please say so?

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. In April 1997, were you living in Portadown?

22 A. I was living in Craigavon.

23 Q. Who with?

24 A. With my husband, Michael.

25 Q. What was your relationship with him at the time? How

1 good was it?

2 A. It was okay.

3 Q. And we know that his niece was Tracey Clarke?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How close were you to her?

6 A. I considered myself to be very close to Tracey. I would

7 support her and help her out whenever I could.

8 Q. Were you 25 in 1997?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I think she was about 17?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it like a family relationship, like sisters, or was

13 it a friends relationship or what?

14 A. Yes, it was -- I would say I was like a big sister.

15 Q. We have heard about the Tae Kwon Do club which Michael

16 ran, or at least took a lot of part in. Did you spend

17 time there?

18 A. I did. I spent a lot of time there, yes.

19 Q. And we have heard that Robert Atkinson and others went

20 there. Can you describe, as of April 1997, what sort of

21 relationship you had with both Mr and Mrs Atkinson?

22 A. Well, I would describe us as friends. We would

23 socialise together on occasions. The most accurate way

24 I can describe our relationship is we were friends.

25 Q. Okay. Were there any tensions between any of the people

1 I have just mentioned, for example, Tracey Clarke and

2 the Atkinsons; you and the Atkinsons?

3 A. Not that I am aware of, no.

4 Q. Could you tell us about Tracey Clarke's parents? Did

5 you know them?

6 A. Yes. I did. Tracey's mother, xxxxxxxxxx, she had physical

7 problems. I knew of her. Her husband, Jim, I knew Jim

8 as well, quite closely.

9 Q. And did Michael have a brother?

10 A. He did, yes, xxxxxxxxxx.

11 Q. And did you have any relationship with him and his wife?

12 A. Yes, I knew the both of -- the both of them. We used to

13 spend some time together, not a great deal amount of

14 time, but some time, [Michael's brother] would help Michael with the

15 gym on occasions.

16 Q. And did Tracey know them? Obviously she was related to

17 them, but was she close to them?

18 A. She was, yes.

19 Q. Were there tensions between her and her parents, do you

20 know?

21 A. No, I wouldn't say. Not that I was aware.

22 Q. Okay. Allister Hanvey is a name we have obviously heard

23 here. Again, did you know him well?

24 A. I knew Allister from he was 13. So I knew him

25 reasonably well, yes.

1 Q. And were you friends or what?

2 A. Yes. He was a regular member of the gym. As I say,

3 I got to know him from he was a youngster, and I would

4 consider myself as a friend of his, yes.

5 Q. Again, any tensions between him and -- I'll leave

6 Tracey Clarke out of this for the moment -- any tensions

7 between him and the rest of the family we have been

8 talking about?

9 A. No, not that I am aware.

10 Q. We have heard the relationship between Tracey Clarke and

11 Allister Hanvey described as "on and off", would that be

12 fair?

13 A. Yes. You couldn't keep track of whether they were on or

14 off.

15 Q. We have also heard that they had access to a room in

16 your house they could sleep sometimes. Is that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We are obviously interested in events of 27 April 1997

19 to start with. Can I ask you when you first became

20 aware that there had been any incident at all in the

21 town that night?

22 A. It was the following morning. Michael and myself were

23 at home, and Tracey came up to our house and informed us

24 that there had been trouble in the town the evening

25 before, on the Saturday night.

1 Q. Did she give any details, do you recall?

2 A. She mentioned that she had seen Robbie, he was on duty,

3 and she had seen him that evening. I can't remember

4 precisely exactly what she said, but she said she had

5 seen some fighting, that there had been some trouble,

6 but she didn't go into that much detail.

7 Q. Do you remember what her state was? Was she upset,

8 excited?

9 A. She was quite elated and excited.

10 Q. Okay. Did she say any more about it as time wore on?

11 A. I can't accurately recall now what she said and when she

12 said, to be honest.

13 Q. Okay. If I take you to page [81487], can we look at

14 paragraph 11? What you said in your statement there is:

15 "As the week progressed Tracey started to tell

16 Michael and me more about what she had seen and it

17 appeared that a few more people got to know about what

18 happened."

19 What you are saying now is you can't remember how

20 the story unfolded?

21 A. I couldn't give an exact day as to when she said what.

22 Q. All right. I want to ask you about the second part of

23 what I just read to you. You say:

24 "... it appeared that a few more people got to know

25 about what happened."

1 What do you mean by that?

2 A. It was just -- it started to become knowledge around the

3 club of the incident and what had gone on. People

4 started to become aware of events.

5 Q. Right. You go on there:

6 "She was able to recall a whole road of names that

7 she knew had been fighting and this included

8 Allister Hanvey."

9 You say you didn't know the names of the other lads

10 she was talking about. I want you take you directly now

11 to a statement you made to the police and see whether

12 they were names that you were familiar with at the time.

13 Can we look at page [17327], please?

14 I'm going to jump around pages here, so I don't want

15 anything highlighted. If we look at about four or five

16 lines down, she says in this statement:

17 "I met up with my friends, Pauline Newell,

18 Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery, Clara Glover,

19 Vicky Clayton ..."

20 Can you recall whether those were names you were

21 familiar with from Tracey Clarke in April 1997?

22 A. I hadn't heard of any of those names before. I wasn't

23 familiar with those people.

24 Q. All right. There's one other name on this page, that's

25 Shelley Liggett. Is that a name that you were familiar

1 with in those days?

2 A. No.

3 Q. If we go over the page at [17328], here perhaps we can

4 highlight the middle third of this, starting at the top

5 of that passage, on the right-hand side:

6 "I saw them jump on the person on the ground. They

7 jumped all over him and kicked him. I saw the persons

8 who were doing this and I can identify them as (1)

9 Dean Forbes, (2) Allister Hanvey, (3) Stacey Bridgett,

10 (4) Muck, (5) Rory Robinson ..."

11 Leave aside Allister Hanvey, were any of those names

12 known to you in April 1997?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If we can back to page [81487], please, paragraph 12

15 there, in the second sentence you say:

16 "Tracey started to say that Allister thought he was

17 going to be all right regarding the fighting in the town

18 because he was being kept updated by Robbie Atkinson."

19 Can you recall when she started telling you that,

20 within how many days it might have been of the incident?

21 A. I couldn't give an exact date, but what I can recall

22 regarding that is that Michael was aware of that and he

23 made a phone call to Robbie Atkinson to discuss it with

24 him. I recall, you know, that happening, but I can't

25 recall exactly and honestly when I first become aware of

1 that.

2 Q. Did you talk to Tracey about that?

3 A. I didn't really take that much notice of it, to be

4 honest. I didn't -- I can't recall having an actual

5 discussion with her about that. I remember her

6 discussing it when I was with her in the police station,

7 but I hadn't talked about it with her.

8 Q. Right. Help with us the conversation which Michael had,

9 your husband had, with Robert Atkinson about that. Can

10 you remember more detail about that?

11 A. I just know that he became aware of it and phoned him up

12 and said I am hearing this, that you have been phoning

13 Allister, and I just remember that he said if you did,

14 you are a fool.

15 Q. How close were Michael and Robert Atkinson?

16 A. Very close.

17 Q. How much time would they spend together in a week?

18 A. Well, it depended with the shifts that Robbie was

19 working and when he had free time, but they would have

20 contact with each other quite regularly.

21 Q. Go out drinking together?

22 A. Yes, football matches together, Robbie did a lot of work

23 at the gym, fixing things. So they spent time together

24 doing that. Michael spent time helping him renovate

25 a house he was renovating.

1 Q. Did you think this was an equal friendship?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you resent it?

4 A. No, not at all, no. I didn't resent it, no.

5 Q. So is there any question that you were worried that

6 Robbie Atkinson was monopolising your husband?

7 A. Can you explain -- ask me that again.

8 Q. He was taking up time that should have been spent with

9 you?

10 A. Not really, no, because a lot of the stuff we did was

11 together. For example, if Robbie was at the gym,

12 helping do jobs, I was there as well. So I was fine

13 with it.

14 Q. How did you hear that Robert Hamill had died?

15 A. On the radio.

16 Q. And did you have any conversations with Tracey Clarke

17 about that?

18 A. She was concerned about events and once she realised

19 that he had died.

20 Q. Explain that a bit more, if you would.

21 A. The seriousness of what had happened, and now there was

22 a death and it was distressing for her.

23 Q. How did she express that? Was she talking to you about

24 it, or did you just see her expression?

25 A. She just displayed shock.

1 Q. At page [81488], paragraph 16, you tell us about

2 a Reserve constable who used to come to the gym and you

3 say there that Tracey was talking about the fighting and

4 Robert Hamill's death, and that this officer overheard.

5 Firstly, how well do you recall that incident?

6 A. I just remember that I was in the reception area of the

7 gym, and there was a room off to the side, and there was

8 a hallway in front, and this constable was standing,

9 like, in the reception with me, over, like, a counter,

10 and Tracey was in a room off to the side and she was

11 discussing things in there with some people, and the

12 door was ajar and he heard.

13 Q. Can you recall what sort of detail she was going into?

14 A. I can't -- I couldn't say accurately now what she was

15 saying, but he overheard stuff that she was saying, and

16 asked me who she was.

17 Q. And you tell us in your statement that that led to him

18 reporting this to the detectives, who then saw you?

19 A. He said, "I need to make a phone call, can I use the

20 phone at the gym?", and he did, and he made a phone

21 call.

22 Q. Can you explain why it is that you then met the police

23 officers rather than -- the detectives that is, rather

24 than that the detectives went straight to Tracey?

25 A. He just asked me would I meet with the police, just

1 while he relayed what he had heard Tracey saying.

2 Q. You tell us in paragraph 17 that you told the officers:

3 "... exactly what Tracey had been telling Michael

4 and I about the fighting and who was involved ..."?

5 A. Mm-hm.

6 Q. Can you recall now whether you were able to give all the

7 names that ended up in the statement that -- her witness

8 statement we have just been looking at, or not?

9 A. I can recall that I was able to remember a name,

10 Stacey Bridgett, and I was able to remember that because

11 I thought it was a more unusual name for a boy, one that

12 stood out. So I can recall that I could remember that

13 name from what Tracey had said.

14 Q. Can you recall whether you remembered the other names

15 and gave them to them?

16 A. I can't remember them now, no.

17 Q. I'm asking whether you can remember whether you were

18 able to give them to the police?

19 A. I am aware that I was able to recall more than one name,

20 yes.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall in that meeting whether you

22 mentioned the question of Robbie Atkinson keeping

23 Allister Hanvey informed?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. We know then that quite shortly after that meeting

1 Tracey Clarke was interviewed by the police and gave the

2 statement, which we've just looked at. How did that

3 come about, as far as you were aware?

4 A. Well, I can remember it was quite late in the evening,

5 and it must have been around 10 o'clock because the gym

6 was getting ready to close. The last class was coming

7 to an end, and [Tracey's mother] phoned the gym, and she said the

8 police had phoned her and asked her to relay a message

9 to Tracey that she needed to come to the police station.

10 Tracey was working in the Chinese, so [Tracey's mother] asked

11 Michael and myself, would we go and collect her and take

12 her to the police station.

13 Q. What was [Tracey's mother]'s behaviour in relation to that? Did she

14 sound worried, upset?

15 A. No, she wasn't worried. She was just worried about how

16 Tracey would get there.

17 Q. Had you had any discussions by that stage with [Tracey's mother]

18 about what Tracey had been saying?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were [Tracey's mother] and her husband, Jim, capable themselves of

21 getting Tracey to a police station, do you think?

22 A. I would imagine Jim would have been, but [Tracey's mother] wouldn't

23 have been. She couldn't drive, and, as I say, she had

24 physical problems.

25 Q. All right. So what happened?

1 A. We went to the Chinese. Tracey was coming to the end of

2 her shift and I went in and said, "The police want you

3 to go to the police station". So she got permission off

4 the staff that were there to leave, and we took her

5 over.

6 Q. How did she take the news?

7 A. Well, she was shocked, but she -- she was shocked, but

8 she seemed not too bad.

9 Q. Did you have any conversation about what she was going

10 to say?

11 A. No. She just -- no, we just said, "Just answer what

12 they ask you and tell them what you know".

13 Q. You say it was a relationship like big sister, little

14 sister. Was she relying on you, do you think, for

15 guidance about what to do here?

16 A. I don't think so, no. She asked me would I stay with

17 her while she went into the police station. I didn't

18 know if I would be allowed to. But the police said

19 I was, so I stayed with her for support.

20 Q. Did you take any part in the interview?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you didn't remind her of any names?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you put any names into her head?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Did you put any pressure on her?

2 A. I would have no reason to put pressure on her. I was

3 just there to support her. It was her statement, so no.

4 Q. Did you appreciate that in giving a statement she was

5 likely to have people arrested?

6 A. Well, it was a serious -- it was serious, what she was

7 saying. So there's obviously going to be consequences

8 from a statement -- the statement that she made.

9 Q. How did you feel about the prospect of Allister Hanvey

10 being arrested, Robert Atkinson being arrested?

11 A. I liked both of them people. I considered them all

12 friends of mine. It was just the events that happened

13 were just shocking and hard to believe, really, that,

14 you know, all this had gone on.

15 Q. Did she say anything in the interview to the police that

16 she had not already told you?

17 A. When we were at the -- when she was giving her

18 interview, she just give a whole account of what had

19 happened on that night, and, you know, I wasn't there,

20 clearly, so it was just all what she could recall, and

21 what information she had to share.

22 Q. I know it's difficult to remember now, but she had

23 obviously told you some information before this, which

24 you were able to retail to the police yourself. What

25 would be helpful, if you can recall it, whether she gave

1 more information in that interview than she had

2 previously given you?

3 A. Clearly, yes, because, you know, it was -- she just went

4 through the start of the evening, right until the end.

5 So it was an account of what she saw and experienced.

6 Q. Did you believe that she was telling the truth?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After she came out, having given her statement, it was,

9 I think, early in the morning?

10 A. It was, yes.

11 Q. Did you have any conversation about what she had done

12 and what might happen?

13 A. There was a lady police officer there, you know, who

14 said if she had any concerns, she could always ring.

15 And she was tearful on the journey home, and I recall

16 saying to her, you know, "You are going to be able to

17 phone them at any time if you have any problems".

18 Q. Was that -- we are calling that lady police officer P39.

19 Not a very glamorous name, but that's what they are

20 doing. Was she present during the interview?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was Detective Inspector Irwin there?

23 A. I don't think so.

24 Q. John McAteer?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What was their attitude to her during the interview?

2 A. They were supportive. They gave her all the time that

3 she needed to answer questions. They offered her, you

4 know, a drink at any time that she wanted one. Her

5 mother phoned up during the time that she was giving the

6 statement and somebody come in and relayed to her that

7 her mother had phoned, asking about her. They were nice

8 with her.

9 Q. Did you get the impression that they already knew any of

10 the information that she was giving them?

11 A. I couldn't say -- accurately say. I don't think so.

12 Q. All right. What would you say to the suggestion that

13 they were putting words in her mouth?

14 A. No, they didn't put any words. They listened to her

15 account of what happened that night.

16 Q. Can I ask you to look at paragraph 23 of your statement,

17 which is on page [81489]? You tell us there about

18 a jacket. You say, first of all, that Tracey had told

19 the police about a jacket Allister Hanvey had been

20 wearing on 26/27 April 1997. How clear are you that she

21 had told them about it?

22 A. I can recall her telling them about that jacket, yes.

23 Q. This is during the interview?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you recall what she said about it?

1 A. She -- she told them that it was a jacket that she had

2 bought for him. It was quite an expensive jacket for

3 her to buy for him, but it was one that she had

4 purchased for him.

5 Q. Did she tell them where she had got it from?

6 A. I can't recall clearly if she did or she didn't.

7 Q. Can you recall whether she described it?

8 A. Yes, she described it, yes.

9 Q. You go on in this paragraph to say how you recall that

10 jacket looking, which you say was orange and black with

11 a silver lining and a zip front. Can you recall how she

12 described it to the police?

13 A. I can't, no.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I have my own memories of Allister -- on that jacket,

16 but I can't remember how she described it.

17 Q. There's no mention of this jacket in her statement, you

18 see, which is why the Panel is going to be interested in

19 what information the police had about it and why it

20 didn't get in the statement. How clear are you about

21 this conversation between her and the police?

22 A. I am sure that she mentioned it to them.

23 Q. Now, let's move on to what you have just told us about,

24 which is your recollection of Allister wearing the

25 jacket. You have told us in the witness statement what

1 you recall there, but can you do it now, from your

2 memory, tell us what it looked like?

3 A. It was -- first of all, it looked like it was too small

4 because it was quite high up, short in the body, like,

5 with long -- long sleeves. It was like a thin material

6 jacket. He used to wear it quite a lot.

7 Q. Was it reversible?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Can you tell whether it had a proper lining?

10 A. It was very, like, thin material.

11 Q. Tell us about the colours.

12 A. It was -- it had a zip-up and it was like silvery grey

13 and orange down the side. I think there was some

14 writing on the back.

15 Q. In your statement you told us that -- and we have got it

16 up here -- a high waistband, orange and black in colour

17 with a silver lining. So which is it: was it silver

18 with orange on it or was it orange and black with

19 a silver lining?

20 A. I just remember it was orange down the sleeves, big

21 cuffs, high in the waist. It was a silver colour to it.

22 Q. All right. In early 1997, do you remember seeing him

23 with any other jacket?

24 A. Tracksuit tops, but not jackets, no.

25 Q. What about a blue Daniel Poole puffa jacket,

1 three-quarter length?

2 A. No.

3 Q. A black CAT jacket?

4 A. I can't recall that, no.

5 Q. All right. In this paragraph you are telling us that

6 Tracey was making a fuss about it. You have already

7 told us, of course, that she told the police about that.

8 When you say she was making a fuss about it, what else

9 do you mean by that; was she talking to you about it,

10 apart from telling the police?

11 A. Just that, you know, she'd -- what I can remember

12 clearly is the fact that she had been paying it off over

13 a period of time. That's just what's really clear for

14 me.

15 Q. Then if we look at paragraph 25, over on page [81490] --

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you do, you have described

17 a jacket, silver and with orange on it and writing on

18 the back; when she was talking about a jacket to the

19 police, were you able to recognise from what she said,

20 the jacket you have just told us about, in other words,

21 connect the two?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: So the jacket you have described was the one

24 she was telling the police about; is that it?

25 A. Yes.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you see Allister Hanvey wearing that

3 jacket after the incident of 27 April, do you recall?

4 A. I couldn't answer that accurately.

5 Q. In paragraph 25 you tell us about events after

6 Tracey Clarke had made her statement and in the second

7 sentence of that you say:

8 "I know she said that people were starting to ignore

9 her in town and not talking to her."

10 Tell us about that, if you would.

11 A. She was working in a travel agent's, and she would

12 discuss with me that some people had come in and not

13 been very pleasant to her. And she discussed with me on

14 another occasion she had been walking through the town

15 and she had been approached and, again, the same sort of

16 thing. She had -- the lady, I can't remember her name,

17 hadn't been pleasant to her.

18 Q. Did she say what people were, as it were, accusing her

19 of?

20 A. I can't remember the exact detail.

21 Q. All right. Then if we have a look at paragraph 28 you

22 tell us about creating an alibi for Robbie Atkinson.

23 Tell us in your own words, please, how you, first,

24 became aware that there was any question of making

25 a statement or dealing with a telephone call.

1 A. Robbie had mentioned to Michael that he had made a call

2 early in the morning that he was going to be in trouble

3 for, and he needed to get it covered because he -- you

4 know, it was going to get him in serious trouble.

5 Q. In relation to the events we know about, namely the

6 fight on 27 April and the tragic death on 8 May, how

7 long after those events was the first inkling of the

8 need to cover up a telephone call?

9 A. I couldn't say accurately. I can't pin it down to

10 a certain time.

11 Q. All right. So how did it progress?

12 A. I don't think it was so much of a shock to Michael

13 because he had been aware, you know, of Robbie saying

14 stuff about Allister, and he had discussed that with him

15 and said that "You are a fool, you know, if you have

16 been doing anything that you shouldn't have been doing".

17 And I just remember that he knew he was going to be

18 asked to cover that call and he wasn't happy to do that,

19 but he felt obliged that it was the only way he was

20 going to try and get Robbie off the hook.

21 Q. Can you help us with why you think he did do that?

22 A. Why?

23 Q. Why he would lie for a police officer?

24 A. Hindsight is a wonderful thing now, but at the time he

25 just knew the seriousness of the trouble Robbie was

1 going to be in. He was in a bad state at that time.

2 Q. Who was?

3 A. Robbie.

4 Q. Tell us about the bad state.

5 A. He was stressed, he wasn't sleeping well. He had lost

6 some weight. He wasn't too good at all.

7 Q. Did you think that stress was a result of this telephone

8 call?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have any conversations with Mr Atkinson about

11 it?

12 A. Not until the evening when we went round to his house.

13 I had heard it second hand from what Michael had relayed

14 to me.

15 Q. Right. Tell us about the evening that you went round to

16 the house then.

17 A. We went round after the gym had shut one evening. It

18 was to -- for Robbie to finalise what was going to be

19 said at the police station. Eleanor wasn't happy about

20 what they were about to do.

21 Q. Tell us about that.

22 A. She just was so annoyed at what he had done. She was

23 getting dragged into it and she was angry at him for

24 making the phone call. She couldn't understand why he

25 would try and help them in any way at all. It's not

1 something that she thought they would ever do for him.

2 She was annoyed at him.

3 Q. Who first mentioned your involvement or that you should

4 become involved?

5 A. When they went off to the police station, I wasn't

6 involved at all. I stayed at home with Robbie's

7 daughter and I become aware that I would be involved

8 when they come back from the police station.

9 Q. Were you asked or told that you would be involved?

10 A. Robbie just asked -- said to me that I would need to

11 just go make a statement to back up what they had said,

12 and this is, from my point of view, why I am so

13 disappointed in myself, because he asked me to. He

14 didn't make me, and I know right from wrong, and I had

15 a choice to say no, but, foolishly, I allowed myself to

16 be brought into it.

17 Q. Okay. Why?

18 A. At the time, I suppose, my focus and concern was backing

19 up what Michael had said.

20 Q. It was a result of that then, was it, that you went to

21 Sean Hagan's office and made the statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. We know that statement was taken by

24 Detective Inspector Irwin.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Let's just be clear, can we, about what part

2 Detective Inspector Irwin had played in the earlier part

3 of this; when you had originally spoken to police and

4 when you had gone with Tracey to give her statement,

5 what was Detective Inspector Irwin's role in all that?

6 A. Well, I was faced with a situation where I had been with

7 him in a car and, you know, I knew he would know about

8 the details of the statement that Tracey made.

9 Q. So he had been in the car when you had had the

10 conversation after the police officer in the gym had

11 overheard Tracey?

12 A. Mm-hm.

13 Q. But he wasn't at the police station during the

14 interview-taking process, was he?

15 A. Not that I remember, no.

16 Q. And then you are faced with him again in Sean Hagan's

17 office; what was his attitude?

18 A. He just looked at me with raised eyebrows as if to say

19 "What are you going to say?" Just his body language to

20 me -- I just expected him to say get out, you know, as

21 if he didn't believe me.

22 Q. Doing the best you can with what might be a hypothetical

23 question, can you tell us how much it would have taken

24 for you to change your course?

25 A. At that moment in time, I knew right from wrong and I'm

1 responsible for my own actions, and, foolishly,

2 I shouldn't have gone in there and made that statement.

3 He was there to do his job and take a statement, as he

4 had been asked to. As I say, I can't blame anybody but

5 myself. I was asked to do that by Robbie. I wasn't

6 made to, and he took a statement as he was asked to,

7 from me, which was untruthful.

8 Q. Were you dead set on doing this?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So if he had said, "What are you doing, Andrea"?

11 A. I would have got up and gone.

12 Q. Would you have been prepared, can you tell us, to

13 uncover the cover-up, or would you have just gone out of

14 the room?

15 A. I can't answer that.

16 Q. All right. Let's move on to June 2000. You were seen

17 in June 2000 by Detective Inspector Irwin and Detective

18 Chief Superintendent McBurney, I think; was that

19 completely out of the blue?

20 A. I think it was, yes. I can't tell you accurately, but

21 I think it was, yeah.

22 Q. So you'd, by this stage, split up from your husband?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Moved back to Wales?

25 A. Mm-hm.

1 Q. Nearly three years had gone by?

2 A. Mm-hm.

3 Q. What was your reaction to these officers turning up on

4 your doorstep?

5 A. I thought I would never hear of it again. It was, like,

6 I was shocked.

7 Q. Worried?

8 A. Not -- not worried, but shocked. I mean, my first thing

9 was how did they even know where I was.

10 Q. And you went to Wrexham Police Station with them,

11 I think?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if we look over the page at [81491] at paragraph 30,

14 in the last sentence you say:

15 "I went with them to Wrexham Police Station where

16 they told me it would be in my interest to tell the

17 truth and that they had already spoken to Michael."

18 Did they give you the impression that Michael had,

19 as it were, broken?

20 A. I couldn't -- I can't recall that accurately.

21 Q. Did you realise you were in trouble?

22 A. What I can recall is that I was aware that this was

23 an opportunity for me to tell the truth, and I wasn't

24 going to get myself in any more trouble. I wondered,

25 you know, what information did they have to come all the

1 way to Wales to find me, and that -- on that occasion

2 I just wasn't going to tell any more lies.

3 Q. Did they threaten you in any way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did they put any pressure on you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, we have already seen the statement you made on that

8 day, but a couple of points I want to show you. If we

9 look at page [14956], if we highlight the top half of

10 the text, about half a dozen lines down into that, you

11 say in the statement:

12 "We didn't go out that night [26/27 April] and

13 I believe we were watching boxing on Sky television.

14 I believe it was Prince Naseem and it was a subscriber

15 match. We owned our own Sky system and the card was in

16 my name."

17 Then it goes on about the telephone number there.

18 Now, it turns out that you didn't watch

19 a Prince Naseem fight that night, because, firstly,

20 there wasn't one on, and secondly, your Sky system

21 didn't allow you access to that type of event.

22 What do you say about that?

23 A. We used to watch boxing on a regular occasion, but that

24 is an oversight on -- and a error on my part.

25 Q. But you gave that detail, which turned out to be wrong.

1 Why do you think it helpful to give a detail if you

2 couldn't be right about it?

3 A. As I say, that was an error on my behalf. We did use to

4 watch boxing whenever it was on.

5 Q. Also in this statement there's no mention that anybody

6 else was with you while that was happening, and later

7 on, and we will see it, you remembered other people

8 being with you. Can you tell us why you didn't mention

9 anybody in this statement?

10 A. I just hadn't recalled that there was anybody in our

11 house that night until later on, and then I had -- I was

12 mistaken, first of all, who actually was there, and then

13 I was able to recall who was.

14 Q. And who do you recall being there?

15 A. Rodney Smyth and Joy Kitchen.

16 Q. Were those people ever in your house on their own,

17 without either Michael or yourself being present?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did they have a key?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I want you to look at page [21441], if you would. This

22 is a document in the possession of the police, as we

23 see, on 26 September 2000. If we go over the page, we

24 see what it is. Do you remember this?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What it says is:

2 "Here is a copy of the letter which is on its way to

3 DCI Irwin at Portadown Police Station unless you confirm

4 to me by Friday that you are starting a divorce against

5 me. I have asked you nicely, but now I am going to

6 fight you, and this is only the beginning. You will not

7 talk your way out of this one, the way you lie your

8 way through everything else."

9 If we go over the page to [21443], the final

10 paragraph before your signature, or your name, is:

11 "I want a letter off [presumably that's some

12 solicitors] saying divorce has started by Friday 22nd or

13 my letter is off to Portadown RUC."

14 If we go to page [21445] we see that the letter

15 which was attached to that, dated 18 September 2000, "Re

16 stolen CD players":

17 "Dear DC Irwin, CID, following our recent

18 conversation regarding your investigation into the

19 stolen CD players from Brownstown Business Centre,

20 I have decided to contact you to inform you of the facts

21 of the event. The CD systems were in fact stolen from

22 outside the audio sound unit at Brownstown Business

23 Centre by my husband, Michael McKee. I have spoken to

24 a few of the people who he sold them to and they have

25 told me that they will state this fact [presumably it

1 is] to you. I am sorry for not giving you these facts

2 before, but at that stage I was trying to protect him,

3 but now I can assure you of my change of heart. I wait

4 to hear from you."

5 Now, I hope you will forgive me if I call this

6 a blackmail attempt; why were you doing this?

7 A. That's frustration from my part about (1) Michael going

8 off, and then (2), not wanting -- when I was trying to

9 move on with my life, from what I see, do the

10 appropriate thing and start a divorce or ...

11 Q. How much is there in this threat; were you prepared to

12 do this?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. It follows then, does it, that the content of the

15 letter, the draft letter to Mr Irwin, is true, is it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you had known about the theft; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you had not told the police about it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Had you had the opportunity; had you been asked by

22 police?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you in the habit of withholding information from

25 the police?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you in the habit of blackmailing people?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If we go back to your statement at page [81491],

5 paragraph 32, you deal with this, and in the last

6 sentence you say:

7 "During this call [the telephone call that Michael

8 had with you as a result of it] he told me that the

9 police had been to see him and he said he had told them

10 the truth."

11 We know that when the police had gone to see him at

12 this stage, he had stood by the alibi statement he had

13 given for Mr Atkinson. What did he actually say to you

14 during this call on this topic?

15 A. I can't recall that because I was just so frustrated

16 with him, you know, about wanting to get a divorce.

17 I can't recall accurately what he said.

18 Q. Was he telling you in that telephone call that he had

19 told the police that the alibi that he had given had

20 been false?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. We know, of course, you made some further statements,

23 and then on 10 April 2001 you were interviewed under

24 caution at the police station. Now, you very kindly

25 waived privilege over your documents with your

1 solicitors so that we have been able to see what

2 happened between you and Mrs Jagger, who was the

3 solicitor that you consulted at that point.

4 What I want to ask you about is that when you saw

5 her and when you were interviewed under caution, were

6 you aware you didn't have to say anything?

7 A. All I was aware of was that I was going to, at this

8 point, tell the truth and not get myself in any further

9 trouble regarding this matter.

10 Q. We know that between October 1997 and June 2000 you

11 split up with your husband, moved to Wales, as you have

12 told us, and we can see that the split was acrimonious;

13 is that fair?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were prepared to go to quite extreme lengths to

16 force Michael to divorce you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you prepared to go to extreme lengths to get him in

19 trouble?

20 A. I didn't want to get him in trouble. You know, I felt

21 sorry for him that we had both done something so

22 foolish. For me there is a difference between wanting

23 to get a divorce. You know, we told this untruth about

24 being at Robbie's house together. So I didn't want to

25 get him into trouble over that. We had both done

1 something wrong.

2 Q. By the middle of 2000, what relationship, if any, did

3 you have with Robbie Atkinson?

4 A. None.

5 Q. How did you feel about him?

6 A. Well, I was angry that he was the instigator of the

7 whole events and, you know, we had done something to try

8 and help him out, as wrong as it was, we are responsible

9 for our own actions and there's consequences to actions,

10 and disappointed that I told lies for him and he was

11 watching us get in trouble, I suppose.

12 Q. All right. You were prosecuted and did you ever intend

13 to plead not guilty?

14 A. Absolutely not, no.

15 Q. Did you ever tell your solicitors to defend the case in

16 any way?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What did you expect might happen to you when you were

19 sentenced?

20 A. I was aware that I could have got a prison sentence.

21 Q. Did you talk to Michael in the course of the

22 prosecution?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you talk to him again after the prosecution?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Have you spoken to him about the admissions you made and

2 the conviction of both of you at all?

3 A. No. I wasn't able to. We weren't in contact together.

4 Q. You then offered to give evidence against Mr Atkinson

5 and others in respect of the cover-up. How do you feel

6 about that?

7 A. Well, you know, I just wanted to tell the truth and it

8 was a difficult process for me to do with travelling and

9 such like, but I was committed to -- that's what I would

10 do.

11 Q. All right. And we know that on 22 December 2003 you

12 were due to attend for a hearing before a magistrate,

13 but you didn't, and you telephoned the lady police

14 officer who was liaising with you about that. Can you

15 take us through that? Take us through the events of the

16 weekend before you were due to give that evidence,

17 please.

18 A. Just my son was unwell and I felt that because he was

19 unwell, I wasn't going to be able to attend. I felt

20 that I had a duty as a mum to look after him. I didn't

21 feel I could put that on to my mother or my partner to

22 travel over. So I informed the correct people that

23 I wouldn't be able to attend.

24 Q. This was the lady police officer, whose name we are not

25 using. Again, she has a very glamorous set of

1 initials, P29. Was that true?

2 A. Yes. He was unwell, yes.

3 Q. I want to show you a series of medical records to see

4 what you say about them, please. Can we look, first, at

5 page [74254]? This is your son's medical record, and

6 again you have very kindly given us access to it. We

7 see in the top right-hand corner he was 6 years old at

8 the time. Is that correct?

9 A. At the time he wasn't 6, no.

10 Q. I'm so sorry. That's at the date of printing in 2008.

11 Take five years off. If we look at the entry, final

12 entry on the page, 18/11/2003, GP surgery; do you happen

13 to know what these initials stand for, "E" and "O"?

14 A. "O" is "observation" and "E" is "examination".

15 Q. Thank you. You know that because of your training now,

16 I think. So on examination then, "Swelling below both

17 ears", and then observation, "Looks well. apryexial. ?

18 mumps"?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you translate the "also bom" for us?

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you?

21 A. Pardon?

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you understand what that "bom" might

23 mean?

24 A. No, I don't know what that stands for.

25 Q. So what we are getting from this then is that he has

1 swelling below both ears on 18 November 2003, looked

2 well but was apyrexial, not high temperature; would that

3 be right; but there's a question mark about mumps

4 because of the swelling?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was that your understanding?

7 A. He was just so unwell a lot of the time. It just all --

8 you know, he had a history of being unwell, and it was

9 a constant theme of swollen glands and -- which left him

10 quite poorly.

11 Q. I think you have had nursing training now; is that

12 right?

13 A. Mm-hm.

14 Q. Had you had that at this stage in 2003?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Then if we look over the page we see on 1 December he is

17 back -- or rather he is not back, there is a home visit,

18 and can you tell us what "S" is? Again, I know they are

19 not your notes.

20 A. I think it's "symptoms".

21 Q. Right:

22 "Baby high temp 24 hrs has cold not

23 eating, having Calpol 4 hrly ?had Mumps, [one

24 week, would that be] 1/52"?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. "Not picked up since. Mum not well unable to come to

2 surgery."

3 Then below that, we have again the same date, note

4 of the home visit:

5 On examination, "swelling front of left ear,

6 temperature, cough", and on observation "apyrexial [is

7 that] zero rash ..."?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. "Zero neck stiffness."

10 So these are meningitis signs?

11 A. Symptoms, yes.

12 Q. "? has mumps bilateral otitis media, chest clear.

13 script [so prescription] for Ceporex... [and] Xylan nasal

14 drops."

15 So you were already giving him Calpol, is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he is now being prescribed something else; can you

19 tell us what the something else is, the Ceporex and the

20 Xylan.

21 A. It is an antibiotic.

22 Q. Then, although the doctor forgot to mention it when he

23 was asked by the police to give the history, we see that

24 at page [34043], by way of a corrective statement, he

25 tells us something which nobody put in the GP records,

1 and if we highlight the script, please, after the part

2 that's blanked out we see:

3 "I can now also confirm that the named patient [that

4 is your son] was visited at his home by myself following

5 a request from his mother to the surgery for a doctor to

6 attend. The child was suffering from ear infection and

7 possibility of mumps as well. I recall prescribing the

8 patient antibiotics for his illness. This visit took

9 place on 11th December 2003."

10 So we have got, according to this, a home visit on

11 the 1st, a home visit again on 11 December, you having

12 been to the surgery on 18 November, and then if we go

13 to --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we do, is it possible perhaps for us

15 to have a typed copy of this document, so that there's

16 no room for error in our thinking what it says?

17 MR UNDERWOOD: I think we might even have one. If so,

18 I will find it and give my apologies. If not, I will

19 provide it.

20 If we now go, please, to page [74255], and here we

21 have, at the bottom entry, an entry for 22 December, so

22 the day you should have been at the Magistrates' Court.

23 Visit to the "GP surgery", and this again is your son's

24 record. He's got "E", so "examination", "Otitis media,

25 NOS".

1 Then if we go over the page to [74256]:

2 "... and persistent glands in neck - review if

3 doesn't settle - test for bloods."

4 Then presumably "RX" must mean "prescribe", is

5 "Penicillin Elixir".

6 So again on the day you were due to be at the

7 Magistrates' Court you were attending the GP, were you,

8 with your son, the question mark about testing for

9 bloods and he was given penicillin?

10 A. There is an entry missing somewhere on this when he was

11 admitted to the children's ward via Accident &

12 Emergency. I don't know why, but that is not anywhere

13 here.

14 Q. Tell us about that.

15 A. There was a night when he was unwell. He was in

16 respiratory distress, he was breathing fast and shallow.

17 I phoned for advice. They told me to sit him up and

18 monitor what happened. Things didn't settle, so I took

19 him over to Accident & Emergency. He was triaged there.

20 His oxygen saturation was low. In A&E he was given

21 a nebuliser with Ventolin in it, and then after a while

22 he was admitted up to the children's ward for one night.

23 Q. Can you tell us in the context of this when that was?

24 A. I don't know. I can't remember exactly, I am just

25 surprised that it hasn't shown up on here.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Which hospital was this?

2 A. It was Wrexham Maelor Hospital.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me the name again.

4 A. Wrexham, and then it's Maelor, M-A-E-L-O-R.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Now, if we also look at page [74257], we see

7 that there is a call sheet for a telephone call made to

8 the Wrexham Out-of-Hours Co-operative, which I think we

9 all know as Pendine Surgery.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there we see that this is for "coughing when lying

12 down/swollen glands". Is that your son again, or is

13 that you?

14 A. That's my son. I'm not sure, but I think this may be

15 the night when I rung for advice, but then took him to

16 A&E.

17 Q. Right. Then if we look at page [74260], here this is

18 one to do with you. "Patient name" is "Andrea",

19 26 November. We see that you are not well on that day.

20 A. I had toncillitis, I think.

21 Q. So you had dealings with Pendine.

22 We know that the magistrate asked for some evidence

23 of the illness of your son, that inquiries were

24 conducted which led to you telling police, and others,

25 that you had had dealings with and been to

1 Pendine Surgery on the weekend leading to 22 December?

2 A. Mm-hm.

3 Q. Was that true?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did it work? How did you get in touch with Pendine?

6 Did you have a number for them, or was your call

7 re-routed through your GP?

8 A. You call through to your GP surgery and it gets

9 forwarded to Pendine.

10 Q. We know, because we have tracked through the records of

11 those two that we have just seen, with your dealings

12 with Pendine, that what then happens under the system is

13 that Pendine tell the GP that they have had dealings

14 with you.

15 After the dealings you had with Pendine on the

16 weekend before 22 December, did the GPs get in touch

17 with you?

18 A. No, I just went there on the Monday morning.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: To the GP, is that?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I have a look at page [34024] with you?

22 This is a set of your phone records. If we look over

23 the page at [34025], a lot of it has been blanked out.

24 If we can just highlight the middle third, roughly.

25 Thank you.

1 You see, in the middle of the page there is

2 "Armagh Police". If we look to the left of that, just

3 underneath it, there's "Strathmore Surgery", that's the

4 caller, calling you on 22 December at 10 o'clock in the

5 morning for 2 minutes 40 seconds.

6 Can you explain why the GP would be ringing you at

7 10 o'clock in the morning on the 22nd?

8 A. I don't know. I can't understand that, because I'm sure

9 around that time I was actually at the surgery.

10 Q. We know you went to the surgery.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did she call you in or did you call to make an

13 appointment and then ring you back?

14 A. I can't remember the exact events. I just know that

15 I took my son along there that morning.

16 Q. Now tell us what you recall about your dealings with

17 Pendine Surgery on that weekend, if you would.

18 A. Just a contact -- I was most concerned about my son. He

19 was unwell, and then me and my partner went over to the

20 surgery. I took him in and he was seen by a doctor.

21 Q. Did you go in with him and see the doctor?

22 A. I was in the waiting room.

23 Q. So did you actually see a doctor, personally?

24 A. Well, I have seen a doctor come out and call for him to

25 go through.

1 Q. Was anything prescribed?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Any advice given?

4 A. Just to continue giving him Calpol.

5 Q. I think you are aware now that according to the records,

6 there was no contact from you and no visit by you?

7 A. I'm aware, yes.

8 Q. And I think you are also aware now that the doctors who

9 were on duty at Pendine that weekend deny any knowledge

10 of you?

11 A. Mm-hm.

12 Q. What do you say to that?

13 A. I can't answer for what they say. Just my son was

14 unwell and, as I always do when he's not well, I seek

15 appropriate help, and that's what I did on this

16 occasion.

17 Q. Were you embroidering your evidence, as it were, when

18 you were telling people about this visit? Do you

19 understand what I mean?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The position is this, isn't it? You were due to give

22 evidence. You didn't turn up, and you said your child

23 was ill?

24 A. Mm-hm.

25 Q. And people came and tested that?

1 A. Mm-hm.

2 Q. The first problem you had was when they tested it, your

3 GP managed to make a mess of it, because he said there

4 wasn't that middle visit on 10 December, and the people

5 who were investigating this were worried about the truth

6 of your assertions. And were you then making it better

7 by saying, "Well, look, not only did I see the GP on

8 these occasions, but I also went to the out-of-hours

9 surgery"?

10 A. No, I was just taking my son to see the doctors every

11 time he wasn't well.

12 Q. Mrs McKee, if you want to, you can tell us that you lied

13 about that. The Panel isn't necessarily going to

14 disbelieve everything you say if you tell us now that

15 you lied about part of it.

16 A. But I'm not going to say that I lied about my son being

17 ill and where I took him, when I didn't, when that's not

18 the case.

19 Q. Very well. I have no more questions for you. It may

20 well be that other people do. Thank you very much.

21 Sir, before I do, with apologies, there is a typed

22 version of that laboriously written statement of the

23 doctor. It's at page [59853]. I do apologise for going

24 to the rough one.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we should just see that on the

1 screen, should we?

2 Examination by MR FERGUSON

3 MR FERGUSON: When the police came to see you in Wrexham on

4 the first occasion, that was a visit out of the blue, as

5 far as you were concerned?

6 A. That's my recollection, yes.

7 Q. They hadn't been in touch with you before that to warn

8 you that they were coming to interview you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What happened, they just turned up at your door?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Any recollection of what times of day it was when they

13 arrived?

14 A. I remember one occasion when I had been working a night

15 shift, and I was home in bed in the morning and they

16 turned up.

17 Q. That was Mr McBurney and Mr Irwin; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they made it clear to you that, as far as they were

20 concerned, they wanted the truth of what had happened;

21 is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And indeed they made it clear to you that it would be in

24 your own best interests if you told the truth. You

25 didn't have a solicitor present when you went to the

1 police station in Wrexham?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did they suggest you should have one or was that not

4 mentioned?

5 A. I can't recall. I didn't think I needed one. It wasn't

6 a concern of mine.

7 Q. No. Prior to their visit to you in Wrexham on that

8 occasion, had you been in touch with anyone back in

9 Portadown about the events with which we are concerned?

10 A. I only had one friend who I was in contact with

11 occasionally, and that was Glynnis Finnegan.

12 Q. So you thought really, as far as you were concerned,

13 there would be no more to it; is that right?

14 A. I suppose, yes.

15 Q. Until they arrived?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when they arrived, and they asked you to tell the

18 truth and advised you it would be in your own best

19 interests, in fact you then told them the statement was

20 false, which you had made earlier on?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Did they put answers in your mouth?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did they treat you properly?

25 A. Yes, they did.

1 Q. Did they give you every opportunity to explain what had

2 happened and why you had done what you had done?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you have no complaint to make about their conduct?

5 A. None at all.

6 Q. At that time?

7 A. None at all.

8 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair.

10 Examination by MR ADAIR

11 MR ADAIR: I have just a few questions for you, Ms McKee.

12 Just going back briefly to the day in the club whenever

13 the policeman overhears the conversation with -- he

14 hears what Tracey is saying.

15 A. Mm-hm.

16 Q. Just starting from there, that policeman was obviously

17 then interested because it was clear to him, was it,

18 that there was some information that might help catch

19 the killers of Robert Hamill?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it would appear that, without hesitation, that

22 policeman wanted to get that information to the CID?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Because he made the phone call from the club?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And that same day, then, you are asked to go and meet

2 with two officers in the car park?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you remember that was Mr McAteer and Mr Irwin; do

5 you remember their names?

6 A. Yes, I can remember their names. Yeah.

7 Q. And was it clear to you that both those officers were as

8 anxious, naturally enough, as any police officer would

9 be, to get as much information about the murder of

10 Mr Hamill as they could?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this meeting was arranged, obviously, very quickly?

13 A. It was quickly, yes.

14 Q. And you, along with the police officer who had been in

15 the club, told them what you knew?

16 A. Mm-hm.

17 Q. And that same night then it was arranged that Tracey

18 should go down to the police station?

19 A. I can't remember if it was the same night.

20 Q. You then arranged to pick up Tracey, at the request of

21 her mother?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And took her down to the police station?

24 A. I can't recall if it was the same night though, but yes.

25 Q. Right, okay. You arrive at the police station and it's

1 clear from -- the impression I got from what you are

2 saying is that you asked could you go in with her

3 because you were supporting her, and the police said,

4 that's fine?

5 A. I didn't ask to go in with her. Tracey asked me,

6 would I stay with her.

7 Q. And you asked the police, was that okay, and they said

8 that was perfectly okay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You then went in, I take it, to some kind of interview

11 room or something; was that the way it worked?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And there was a woman police officer present, along with

14 Detective Constable McAteer, who had been one of the

15 officers up at the car park?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'm not going to go over old ground, but it's clear --

18 my impression from what you are saying is that Tracey

19 was treated very well by both these officers?

20 A. She was, yes.

21 Q. And is it clear that, as with the previous meeting in

22 the car park, both those officers were anxious to obtain

23 as much information as they could to catch the killers

24 of Robert Hamill?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And there's nothing -- just again in general terms -- in

2 the way the interview was conducted with Tracey, there's

3 nothing that you would say that was done either

4 improperly or wrongly?

5 A. Absolutely not, no. They were appropriate and nice and

6 kind to her.

7 Q. But whilst being nice and kind with her, obviously again

8 anxious to get the information from her?

9 A. Of course, yes.

10 Q. Now, can you remember, and again I know I am asking you

11 to go back a long time, but can you remember, before the

12 actual statement was taken, before any writing started

13 on a document, was there a discussion about what she

14 knew first and then was there a statement taken, or

15 can't you remember?

16 A. I can't remember to say accurately.

17 Q. And in particular I'm interested about -- your

18 recollection is that Tracey told them about the coat

19 Hanvey had been wearing that night?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you remember, was that at the start, perhaps before

22 any statement was taken?

23 A. I couldn't remember -- I can't remember accurately.

24 Q. I'll just put it as simply as this. Were the words in

25 her statement Tracey's words?

1 A. They were, yes.

2 Q. Were any of those words suggested either by you or the

3 police officers in the room?

4 A. No.

5 Q. For completeness I should ask you, there is a suggestion

6 that may be made, if a witness gives evidence, that

7 during the course of this interview the table was banged

8 and that she was told she wasn't getting out of the

9 police station; is there any truth whatsoever in that?

10 A. Absolutely none at all. That's ridiculous.

11 Q. Can you remember, during the course of the taking of the

12 statement, did any other police officer come in and give

13 any information to those conducting the interview?

14 A. Somebody come in to tell Tracey that her mum had phoned

15 to see how she was doing.

16 Q. You have told us that, but apart from that, did anyone

17 come in and say, "I've got information from another

18 source and here it is", or anything like that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. As I understand it, Tracey was then taken home by the

21 woman police officer, P39, we are calling her?

22 A. Both of us were, yes.

23 Q. Both of you. Was she making it clear that whatever

24 support was needed for Tracey would be given?

25 A. She left her number with Tracey and said, you know,

1 "Don't hesitate, you can contact me any time you like if

2 you have any problems".

3 Q. Now, I finally just want to ask you a little bit, just

4 a few questions, about -- if you bear with me for

5 a couple of minutes, I think I'll be, Chairman. If you

6 wish, I will come back after lunch.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no.

8 MR ADAIR: It's relating to the evidence you have given

9 concerning why you made the statement, the false

10 statement, in October. Now, would I be right in saying,

11 Mrs McKee, that it was a combination of misguided

12 loyalty to in particular your husband and partly

13 Atkinson?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. Would it be fair to say to you that there was a -- while

16 you knew right from wrong, it was because of the request

17 coming from those two sources that persuaded you to do

18 the wrong thing?

19 A. Robbie only asked me to make that statement. He didn't

20 make me.

21 Q. I understand that. But the source was Robbie and you

22 were aware that your husband had made a similar

23 statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the statement was in essence in support, first of

1 all, of what your husband said, and to give an alibi in

2 a sense to Atkinson?

3 A. That's right, yes.

4 Q. While you were with your husband, can we assume you

5 wouldn't have changed that; you wouldn't have phoned up

6 the police and said, "By the way, what I said is untrue

7 and my husband has also given a false statement"; it's

8 only when you had separated and started a new life that

9 you thought better of it?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR ADAIR: Thank you very much, Mrs McKee.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: 2 o'clock.

13 (1.00 pm)

14 (The short adjournment)

15 (2.00 pm)

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

17 MR McGRORY: We don't have a witness, Mr Chairman. That

18 doesn't really matter. I may have some questions, but

19 I am going to defer that, with your permission, sir,

20 until others have finished their questions, except of

21 course for Mr Berry.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well then.

23 MR McGRORY: I am obliged.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McComb, I owe you an apology for

25 mispronouncing your name for the last fortnight.

1 MR McCOMB: It's happened to me many times before.

2 Examination by MR McCOMB

3 MR McCOMB: Just before I ask Mrs McKee some questions,

4 I will be asking questions on behalf of Tracey Clarke

5 and some others.

6 As you are aware, sir, Tracey Clarke has made

7 a statement, but not signed, and in that she makes

8 certain averments or certain allegations. It wouldn't

9 be my intention, and I have discussed this with

10 Mr Underwood, unlike in a criminal trial there are

11 a number of matters which I would have to be put to the

12 witness normally, to be traversed. It wouldn't be my

13 intention, subject to the Chair's ruling, to go through

14 those in any particular detail or even in any form at

15 all.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I suspect sooner or later the witness will be

17 asked to deal with the allegations, because it may help

18 us to see how she responds to them. If your

19 instructions are that the statement you have is accurate

20 --

21 MR McCOMB: Yes, they are.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: -- then is seems to me entirely appropriate

23 you should put, however briefly, your challenges to her

24 evidence.

25 MR McCOMB: I can certainly do that, sir.

1 Now, Mrs McKee, you have known Tracey, I imagine,

2 since she was a very young girl, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you were close friends and you described earlier

5 your relationship with her?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you say it was a constant and a happy

8 relationship?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And a friendly one?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you fond of Tracey?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would it be fair to describe Tracey as quite a decent

15 hard-working young girl?

16 A. She was brought up to be that, yes.

17 Q. And indeed, as we have heard, she worked in the daytime

18 at a travel agency and then she did some work at night

19 in a Chinese restaurant?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you close to her, did you see her regularly?

22 A. It wouldn't have been every day, because she was busy

23 doing her own thing, but ...

24 Q. You weren't, of course, as you have said -- became aware

25 through the media of this terrible events, 26/27 April,

1 and Tracey came to you and you say discussed or talked

2 about things the following day?

3 A. The following morning, yes.

4 Q. And the words you said were, I think, "excited" and

5 "elated"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you get the impression that she had -- from anything

8 she said then, that she had actually witnessed anything

9 herself?

10 A. I can't recall in detail what she said that morning, but

11 she had been there and she had witnessed things, but

12 I can't tell you in detail what they were.

13 Q. Yes, and indeed in your evidence this morning you have

14 described how, during the course of that week, bits and

15 pieces of new information came, to your knowledge?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would it be right to say that that came from

18 a number of sources? For example, you said it was

19 freely talked about in the Tae Kwon Do gym; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That wasn't just by Tracey, obviously; it was by other

23 people?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And as the week wore on, therefore, did you have

1 a picture in your mind, which developed, as to what

2 might have happened that night or that morning, or not?

3 A. I can't -- I can't say that accurately, no.

4 Q. Yes. But certainly by the time you had a conversation

5 with those two Reserve constables in the Tae Kwon Do

6 gym, and then with the police --

7 A. I didn't have a conversation with two. There was one.

8 Q. Just the one?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you spoke to the police, Mr McAteer and others,

11 at a rendez-vous at a place called Kernan later on that

12 night, that evening?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you did that for security reasons or something; is

15 that correct? Were you anxious about perhaps going to

16 the police station?

17 A. No, that was just where they arranged.

18 Q. They arranged it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It wasn't because of your concern?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I see. Now, at that stage, did you have a number of

23 people's names which had been given to you by, perhaps,

24 a number of different sources?

25 A. No.

100

1 Q. You described the name Stacey Bridgett?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I think in your evidence again, and subject to

4 corrections, I think you said there were other names as

5 well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But you don't know now who those were?

8 A. I can't recall them, no.

9 Q. Now, had you any conversation or discussion with

10 Tracey's parents, [Tracey's mother] or her stepfather Jim Murray,

11 during this week or at any time up until 9 April?

12 A. Not that I can recall, no.

13 Q. Did you let them know or did you not let them know that

14 you were taking Tracey down to the police station?

15 A. Tracey's mother phoned up at the gym and asked if we

16 could facilitate that, Tracey getting to the police

17 station.

18 Q. Do you know in what context? Had she been asked to go

19 to the police station by yourself or the police?

20 A. The police had contacted Tracey's mother, xxxxxxxxxx, and

21 left a message for her to get in touch with Tracey and

22 tell her that she was to go to the police station.

23 Q. And in due course you took her after she had finished

24 work at about 10 o'clock?

25 A. Yes.

101

1 Q. And she was there for some hours?

2 A. I can't remember how many, but yes.

3 Q. Did it seem quite a long time?

4 A. It was late into the night, yes.

5 Q. Did you, at any stage, tell Tracey that you had

6 conversations with the police?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You didn't refer to the meeting the night before to

9 Kernan?

10 A. Not that I can recall, no.

11 Q. Was there any reason for that?

12 A. I don't know. Just it wasn't mentioned.

13 Q. Did you have no discussion with Tracey when you drove

14 her to the police station as to what she might be asked

15 to do or why she was going there?

16 A. There was Michael and myself in the car, and you know,

17 Tracey just knew it was to do with, obviously, what had

18 gone on and what she had seen, but there was no great

19 discussion, no.

20 Q. I don't know if you are aware that Tracey has made

21 a number of allegations. One of them is that she didn't

22 feed you names, but you gave her names of various people

23 who might have been involved. Do you dispute that?

24 A. Yes, I do, yes.

25 Q. She says also that while certainly you had been friends,

102

1 she thought that you were vindictive. She used the word

2 "vindictive".

3 A. I don't know why --

4 Q. How would you answer that?

5 A. I only ever did things that would support Tracey. You

6 know, she had a difficult life with her mum. I used to

7 do washing and stuff and give her money from time to

8 time to help her out, so I don't know why she would say

9 that.

10 Q. Do you remember when you were in the police station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Her views are somewhat different from the picture you

13 have given, Mrs McKee. She may say that it was quite

14 a fraught interview, that Mr McAteer banged the table

15 and also -- I will ask you that, first of all. Do you

16 dispute that?

17 A. Absolutely. The table was never banged at all. It was

18 all calm and they were supportive of Tracey for...

19 Q. You said that a woman officer -- I think she is now

20 known as P29 -- sat in throughout the interview. Is

21 that correct? P39, sorry.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Might it be that in fact that lady came in from time to

24 time to reassure, perhaps to give a motherly support to

25 Tracey while she was being interviewed?

103

1 A. I just remember that she was there. I can't remember if

2 she was coming in and out or not. I just remember she

3 was a nice lady and she was there.

4 Q. Yes. Did any other officers come in or out from time to

5 time?

6 A. Somebody come in to give a message about Tracey's mum

7 ringing.

8 Q. You have told us that. Apart from that, anything?

9 A. Not that I remember, no.

10 Q. Do you remember, did Tracey have an opportunity then to

11 speak to her mum, or what happened in relation to

12 [Tracey's mother]'s phone call?

13 A. They gave her a message that her mum had phoned to see

14 how she was doing, and they'd told her she was doing

15 okay and she was all right.

16 Q. Yes. Do you remember during the interview, perhaps if

17 we can go to a witness statement.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McComb, won't that microphone move any

19 closer to you? I don't want us to have to adjourn while

20 you go to the osteopath. Is it moveable?

21 MR McCOMB: Page [31616], I think. If we may go to the last

22 page of that, please, the previous page, and highlight

23 the bottom third. Do you see the last three lines

24 there, Mrs McKee?

25 A. Yes.

104

1 Q. "I spoke to Allister Hanvey yesterday and I asked him

2 what he did to the persons that they attacked in the

3 centre of Portadown who is now dead."

4 Do you remember her saying that in the interview?

5 A. Yes, because Tracey found this quite shocking.

6 Q. She was shocked, yes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. She says there:

9 "I asked him [that is Allister] what he did."

10 Did that strike you as somewhat strange, that she

11 should be asking Allister what he did, if in fact the

12 tenor of her interview there is that she saw these

13 things herself?

14 A. I can't comment on that really because they are Tracey's

15 words. So they are not my words.

16 Q. I'm sorry. It didn't strike you as odd at the time, or

17 perhaps you weren't really concentrating.

18 A. No, I can't say.

19 Q. Is it correct that you were discussing things from time

20 to time and giving bits of information to Jim and [Tracey's mother]?

21 They made statements in which they make that assertion.

22 A. I can't recall that.

23 Q. Might that have been the case, that you were giving

24 information to them other than -- or perhaps

25 supplemental to anything that Tracey might have said or

105

1 other people might have said?

2 A. No, I don't think that is the case.

3 Q. Do you take issue with that, or can you not say at the

4 moment?

5 A. I can't say.

6 Q. Would it be fair to say that this was a case of extreme

7 interest to everyone in the Portadown area, both

8 Catholics from their side and Protestants from their

9 side as well. It was talked, certainly in the days up

10 to the death of Robert Hamill, and even more so perhaps

11 after that as well?

12 A. Yes, it was -- basically, it was the talk of the town,

13 I suppose.

14 Q. Yes. And indeed in your position, in the Tae Kwon Do

15 club, you would be, as it were, a focus for a lot of

16 tittle tattle, and conversation and bits of information?

17 A. As people attended they would talk about things. So

18 whether that's -- that's just how it was.

19 Q. So far as Allister Hanvey was concerned, Tracey has

20 said, or may say, that you didn't like him. Would that

21 be your recollection at this time?

22 A. Didn't like Allister?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. No, I liked Allister. As I say, I knew him from when

25 he was 13. He was brought up by his parents to be

106

1 polite and well mannered and that's how I found him. He

2 was a nice young lad.

3 Q. And that would have been your impression of him up

4 until, perhaps even afterwards?

5 A. Yes, I had no problems with Allister.

6 Q. And although their relationship was on and off, he was

7 never unpleasant?

8 A. With?

9 Q. With either Tracey or yourself, when you were about?

10 A. He was never unpleasant with me. Him and Tracey, you

11 know, they fought and argued as they were on/off, but

12 everyone let them get on with it because that is how it

13 was for them.

14 Q. Did you have any qualms or any anxiety about going down

15 to the police station, and with the obvious result that

16 both Allister and Mr Atkinson might find themselves in

17 serious trouble?

18 A. Clearly. I mean, this was something really serious.

19 So, you know, the only outcome that you could imagine is

20 that there would be serious trouble.

21 Q. And of course even before the date of Mr Hamill's death,

22 he had been in hospital for some 10 or 11 days. And

23 were you aware that he had been quite seriously --

24 I don't mean that flippantly at all -- he had been

25 seriously injured?

107

1 A. I didn't know the severity of his injuries. I knew he

2 was injured, but I didn't know the severity of his

3 injuries.

4 Q. But it had been a serious event in the middle of

5 Portadown, with serious -- injuries to a young man?

6 A. Well, he had clearly been assaulted, but I didn't know

7 the severity of his injuries.

8 Q. Now, did it ever occur to you that if Tracey, as you

9 say, had given you some names, that she should get down

10 to the police station and assist the police in bringing

11 these people to justice? Why did one have to wait for

12 Mr Hamill to die?

13 A. I don't know. I can't answer that.

14 Q. You didn't ask yourself, say to Tracey, you should be

15 going down there and helping the police?

16 A. As soon as Tracey was called to the police station to do

17 that, that's what she did.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think she ought to go to the police

19 and say what she knows?

20 A. I can't say it crossed my mind. You know, she knew what

21 she saw, so in hindsight, yes, probably she should have

22 gone sooner.

23 MR McCOMB: Perhaps just for completeness, sir, if I may --

24 perhaps I will just quote from the transcript of

25 Tracey's interview.

108

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

2 MR McCOMB: She was being asked by one of the Inquiry

3 interviewers, Mr Pinfield, and he quotes something from

4 her statement:

5 "'I remember Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and

6 Allister said that Robbie had been very good to him because

7 on the Sunday morning after the incident in the town

8 centre he rang him at about 8 am and told him to get

9 rid of the clothes he was wearing the previous night.'" And

10 she said [Tracey said], "I don't know where that has come

11 from. I think that has come from my Auntie."

12 That would be yourself, Mrs McKee. Do you take

13 issue with that?

14 A. Sorry, could you say that again, please?

15 Q. Yes. She was having quoted to her part of her statement

16 to the police, in which she said that she remembered

17 Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and making the call to

18 destroy his clothes. Tracey Clarke's answer to that

19 was:

20 "I don't know where that has come from. I think it

21 has come from my Auntie."

22 Which is yourself. Do you take issue with that?

23 You say that isn't correct at all?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. She was then asked again:

109

1 "'Since then Allister has contacted me on numerous

2 occasions and he keeps asking about what I have said to

3 the police.'"

4 That again was in her statement, and the way she

5 dealt with that when she was being interviewed by

6 Mr Pinfield was to say:

7 "That probably is incorrect because I wasn't going

8 out with him and I was disliking him at that time and I

9 didn't really want to speak to him. so, I probably made

10 that up or it's come out of Andrea."

11 One or the other of those. Do you say it didn't

12 come from you? She was then asked:

13 "So that again you think might have come out of your

14 Auntie?"

15 And then he quotes again:

16 "'He also told me that Robbie Atkinson was ringing

17 him every day to keep him up-to-date with the police

18 investigation.'"

19 And her answer to that was:

20 "Again, I believe that's Andrea has put that in."

21 A. Absolutely not, no.

22 Q. Further in relation to the police interview itself, she

23 said:

24 "My Auntie took me to the police station and they

25 weren't going to let me out of the police station unless

110

1 I told them these things and my aunt was telling me what

2 to say."

3 What's your observation about that?

4 A. Well, I mean, Tracey's statement is detail from what she

5 saw that night. I don't know how I could have told her

6 to say such fine details of what she saw in the town

7 that night.

8 Q. She was then much later on in the interview, and this is

9 the last thing I will put to you out of this:

10 "She told us that Robbie Atkinson, who I know is

11 a policeman in Portadown, had told Allister to burn his

12 coat."

13 Tracey said to that:

14 "I guarantee you that that's from Andrea McKee."

15 So she is saying that any discussion or any

16 information from whatever source it came, to her

17 knowledge, if that was said, that came from you, not

18 from herself.

19 A. That didn't come from me at all.

20 Q. So I think you said this morning in your evidence that

21 your then husband, Michael, had some phone call with

22 Robbie Atkinson?

23 A. When he become aware that this was going around, he made

24 contact with Robbie to discuss it with him.

25 Q. And correct me if I am wrong, the impression I got from

111

1 the context of your answer this morning was that that

2 didn't come from Tracey, it came from some other source;

3 would that be right?

4 A. Well, it would have come from Allister, directly to

5 Tracey.

6 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mrs Dinsmore.

8 Examination by MRS DINSMORE

9 MS DINSMORE: Good afternoon, I am Margaret-Ann Dinsmore.

10 I represent, along with my friend, both Mr and Mrs

11 Atkinson. Now I am going to say to you at the outset

12 this afternoon, during the course of this afternoon,

13 I will be suggesting to you that, at best, you are

14 mistaken in relation to a lot of matters or,

15 alternatively, that you are telling untruths.

16 Now, before we move to the detail of that, however,

17 I would wish to explore with you the relationships that

18 there were within your social circle, as your statements

19 deal with those in very great detail.

20 What age were you when you came to Northern Ireland

21 with Michael?

22 A. I would have been 18 or 19, possibly.

23 Q. What is your date of birth?

24 A. 4 September 1971.

25 Q. 1971, okay, and you came to Northern Ireland when?

112

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. You have no idea when you first came to Northern

3 Ireland?

4 A. I can't remember now off the top of my head, no.

5 Q. But you can remember meeting Michael in Wrexham?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And he had one of these clubs in Wrexham also?

8 A. He did, yes.

9 Q. And you met him there and he was married at that time,

10 wasn't he?

11 A. No, he wasn't.

12 Q. He wasn't married and he didn't have children at that

13 time?

14 A. He had children.

15 Q. But in any event, you and him came to Northern Ireland?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you settled, initially, in Craigavon?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you come with the intention of pursuing his

20 expertise in relation to the type of martial art which

21 we have heard much about?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in fact, as a couple, that's what you did?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And can you remember what year you met him?

113

1 A. No, I can't. No.

2 Q. Do you not remember the night you met him?

3 A. Not now, no. It's not something I wish to remember,

4 even.

5 Q. But what we do know is that you left in 1999. Would you

6 have had, perhaps, eight or nine years in Northern

7 Ireland?

8 A. Yes. I left in 1999.

9 Q. You left in May of 1999, isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were the years initially happy ones with you and

12 Michael?

13 A. They were, yes.

14 Q. When did things start to go wrong?

15 A. I can't pinpoint that. Looking back, probably around

16 December of 1998, possibly.

17 Q. So are you telling the Inquiry, there were no

18 difficulties in your relationship until he started an

19 affair with this lady, xxxxxxxxxx?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The Inquiry has heard that your ex-husband had a grave

22 alcohol problem?

23 A. Well, he used to drink at the weekends and some

24 evenings, yes.

25 Q. And was that the height of it? Are you saying he was

114

1 a pleasant heavy social drinker at worst?

2 A. Well, he used to drink, you know. I am not going to say

3 he didn't, because he did. The extent of his alcohol is

4 maybe something to discuss with him, possibly. My

5 opinion is, you know, he would drink.

6 Q. You see, the Inquiry has already heard in relation to

7 a police sentencing report about very grave alcohol

8 difficulties and behavioural difficulties that Mr McKee

9 suffered. Now, you as his wife, living 24/7 with him,

10 you would say it wasn't a big problem; the problem arose

11 in 1998 when he started this affair with this lady,

12 xxxxxxxxxx?

13 A. Michael used to drink, as I say, but he functioned

14 during the day. He used to run clubs every night. He

15 used to drive his car all round the country, to do his

16 job, and then, yes, he would drink alcohol at night and

17 at the weekends.

18 Q. Just so I'm clear, as a wife, you are saying: in our

19 marriage his drinking wasn't a problem?

20 A. Well, he used to drink, but I didn't see it as

21 a problem.

22 Q. So the answer to that is: yes, it was no problem?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, did he ever, for example, leave you for two or

25 three days at a time and you knew not where he was?

115

1 A. There was -- would have been times when, yes, he would

2 have done that.

3 Q. He would have booked himself into a local hotel, such as

4 Seagoe or Silverwood, and that for a number of days you

5 would not know where he had disappeared to?

6 A. Well, I would have known where he was. It wouldn't have

7 been a case that I didn't know where he was.

8 Q. And you never actually asked anyone to help you find

9 him?

10 A. He is an adult. You know, he can look after himself.

11 Q. Yes, he is an adult, but you are his loving, caring

12 wife, and what I want to understand is exactly, you

13 know, what was going on between you and Michael, because

14 if Michael was disappearing on occasions and such like,

15 who looked after things in the club?

16 A. I would have, or some of the other members would have.

17 Q. And in fact the club had a real collegiate spirit, did

18 it not?

19 A. Sorry?

20 Q. The club was very chummy?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it was a place where people got on very well and

23 very much had a club atmosphere, where everybody was

24 pulling together to try and make the club work?

25 A. That's right, yes.

116

1 Q. And Robbie Atkinson would have been one of those

2 persons?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And his behaviour wasn't unusual in that, because that

5 was the atmosphere of the club?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it was the sort of club where if something needed

8 done round the place, whoever could do it, did it?

9 A. That's correct, yes.

10 Q. If there were outings, as many as could make it would go

11 on the outings?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So in your statement, when you refer to yourself, and

14 Michael and Allister Hanvey, Tracey Clarke, Mr and

15 Mrs Atkinson being present, on occasions socially, isn't

16 it true to say that would have always been in the

17 context of the club facilities and outings?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So what the Inquiry know is that the club was embraced

20 by members and that there was nothing unusual in

21 relation to the commitment that, for example,

22 Mr Atkinson had towards it?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And that many of the friendships which are referred to,

25 the nexus in those friendships was the club?

117

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And indeed the nexus in the Atkinsons' friendship with

3 yourselves was the club?

4 A. Where their daughter attended.

5 Q. She was exceptionally good, wasn't she?

6 A. She was, yes.

7 Q. And then in relation to the Tracey, you lived very close

8 to Tracey?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you have explained that you were like a big sister

11 to her, that there's only eight years between you, and

12 that her mother had some difficulties, so you were there

13 to help her and support her?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you see yourself in the role of a substitute

16 parent?

17 A. No, Tracey had her own parents.

18 Q. But when it came to something of the magnitude of going

19 to a police station to give a statement, it was you who

20 went with her and you who sat in through the interview?

21 A. I was asked to do so, yes.

22 Q. You didn't think that was unusual?

23 A. No.

24 Q. No? And were you comfortable about doing that?

25 A. Well, Tracey asked me to, so I wasn't going to say no.

118

1 I was there to support her.

2 Q. Now, she would have been in your house very, very

3 frequently. In fact she had her own bedroom, didn't

4 she?

5 A. We had the spare room, and if Tracey wanted to stay

6 over, she could have.

7 Q. If she wanted to, she could have. Perhaps you can tell

8 the Inquiry, was it a regular feature that she did in

9 fact stay over?

10 A. Not regular, but from time to time.

11 Q. Would Allister Hanvey have at times stayed with her?

12 A. On two occasions, as I can recall.

13 Q. So that Allister and Tracey would have availed of the

14 facility of your guest room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you didn't have any difficulty with that?

17 A. None at all.

18 Q. So you and Tracey were close?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, are you still close?

21 A. With Tracey?

22 Q. Yes?

23 A. I haven't seen her or spoke to her since 1998/1999.

24 So --

25 Q. But you are not a person who necessarily abandons

119

1 friendships and such like, because we know, isn't it

2 correct to say, that you are still very friendly with

3 Glynnis Finnegan?

4 A. I am friendly with Glynnis, yes.

5 Q. You are very friendly with her?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That is no criticism. Now, why are you still friendly

8 with Glynnis Finnegan and you haven't spoken to

9 Tracey Clarke in almost ten years?

10 A. When I left this country, I went back to Wales to set up

11 my own life and there was just no contact between me and

12 Tracey or any of her family. Tracey didn't make any

13 contact with me and I didn't make any contact with her.

14 Q. Why not, if she was like a little sister to you?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Where are we getting to with this? I have

16 been patient so far.

17 A. I was separated from her uncle. So, you know ...

18 MS DINSMORE: I am happy to move on. I was setting the

19 scene in relation to the relationships that existed. So

20 I am putting to you, first of all, just so we have

21 clarity on it, that apropos Mr Atkinson, the social life

22 that you described was in the context of a club

23 situation.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And there was nothing unusual in relation to his

120

1 participation --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: She has said that. You have asked her

3 already.

4 MS DINSMORE: If we then move to the issue of you accept

5 that in the past you have told a number of lies?

6 A. I told lies to cover a phone call for Robert Atkinson.

7 Q. Is that the only lie you have ever told?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you sure about that?

10 A. As I'm aware, yes.

11 Q. So the only lie is that you made a statement, saying,

12 "I witnessed that phone call"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I fully appreciate that your child was unwell, and

15 Mr Underwood has dealt with this, but I have to suggest

16 to you when you said that you attended the

17 Pendine Surgery on that date in December, that in fact

18 you had not done so?

19 A. I did attend with my son, who was unwell.

20 Q. If perhaps page [58457] could you called up. Now, if we

21 could just go to paragraph 4, please:

22 "Copies of the Call Log Sheets for each of these doctors

23 has been obtained. They do not show any record of

24 Andrea ... or her son having attended Pendine during

25 this period."

121

1 Now, is your answer to that that the records are

2 wrong in their entirety, notwithstanding the extensive

3 investigations that have been done and the information

4 taken from the doctors?

5 A. I can't comment on that. All I can tell you is I'm here

6 to assist the Inquiry with the truth. My son was

7 unwell, and I took him to Pendine Park to get some

8 medical attention.

9 Q. Yes, but the point is that you had specifically stated

10 that on 19 December you were there?

11 A. That's correct. I was there with my son. He was

12 unwell.

13 Q. I am suggesting to you the records make it absolutely

14 clear that --

15 A. I appreciate what the records say. I have been informed

16 of this, but I can only tell you that my son was unwell

17 and I took him there.

18 Q. And you don't have the view that you could even be mixed

19 up on the dates?

20 A. No, I am certain what happened, and following taking him

21 there, I then took him on the Monday morning to my GP.

22 Q. Now, obviously you and Mr McKee did not part on good

23 terms?

24 A. That is fair to say, yes.

25 Q. And do you remain on difficult terms?

122

1 A. Well, I have moved on with my life, so, you know, it's

2 irrelevant to me, my terms with him. It's in the past

3 for me now.

4 Q. Could we have page [21445], please, on the screen, and

5 could we have parallel with it page [23894]? Do you

6 accept that you wrote those letters?

7 A. I wrote those letters. I did, yes.

8 Q. That's blackmail?

9 A. That is immaturity on my behalf.

10 Q. Is it also blackmail?

11 A. You could -- I suppose you could say --

12 Q. What age were you when you wrote them, if it was

13 immaturity?

14 A. I don't recall, but no matter age --

15 Q. It is not difficult to work out. September 2000 and you

16 were born in 1972, leaves you?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. 28, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes, but it's still immaturity on my behalf.

20 Q. Do you think that is an excuse for it?

21 A. Absolutely not, no. It's disgraceful behaviour on my

22 behalf.

23 Q. So that's disgraceful, dishonest behaviour. So that's

24 the second aspect of disgraceful behaviour that you are

25 admitting to?

123

1 A. In hindsight, that was an indication of my frustration

2 at that time.

3 Q. Was it true what you said in those letters, was there

4 the stolen CDs?

5 A. There was, yes.

6 Q. Had that happened while you were with him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were you aware of all that going on?

9 A. I was aware that he had been involved in that, yes.

10 Q. And what was your attitude to that? How did you go

11 about dealing with that?

12 A. It's not very good behaviour, is it?

13 Q. No, but did you think of reporting him to the police, at

14 that stage?

15 A. I didn't report that to the police, no.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. I don't know, but, in hindsight, I should have done.

18 Q. Then when we come to the night in question, the night of

19 26/27 April, now, you in your statement of 25 October

20 were fairly adamant that xxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxx had

21 stayed with you?

22 A. I was mistaken that it was them. They would have called

23 to our house on occasions and, initially, I was mistaken

24 that it was them.

25 Q. And didn't -- well, you completely accept you were

124

1 mistaken?

2 A. Absolutely, yes.

3 Q. If we could have [59559], please, and [59557], both of

4 them say that they didn't even know each other at the

5 relevant time, and it couldn't possibly have been them.

6 A. It was a mistake on my part.

7 Q. Well, it was a big mistake, bearing in mind that you

8 were very close friends with them; isn't that right?

9 A. It was a mistake on my behalf.

10 Q. Were you close friends with them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was your husband their best man?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were you their witness?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So we are talking about people you knew very, very well

17 indeed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And notwithstanding that, that you placed them at your

20 home that evening?

21 A. As I have said, that was a mistake on my behalf.

22 Q. But it was a mistake that you went into in some very

23 considerable detail; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, can you tell me how it came about that at the very,

125

1 very last sentence of that 13-page statement, reference

2 is made to Rodney Smyth and Joy Kitchen?

3 A. I was able to recall that it was Rodney and Joy

4 who stayed on at my house that evening, when

5 I remembered that it was me who phoned them a taxi.

6 Q. Did anyone show you any taxi receipts that mentioned the

7 word "Smyth" and all, during the course of your

8 interview?

9 A. I can't recall.

10 Q. Well, just so we are clear, on page 6, which is [14913],

11 what we do know -- by the time you were doing page 6 of

12 the interview, you were certain it was:

13 "... Michael and I were at home that night. Nobody

14 was living with us ... I recall that there was a couple of friends

15 xxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxx who came out to our house at

16 that time... I had started to think about this

17 after making the statement on 20 June ..."

18 And this is what I have come up with.

19 So you have thought for a number of months, between

20 June and October, who was staying with you; isn't that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And having gone through that thought process for

24 a number of months, and knowing the reason for this

25 statement, you go in adamant that it's the xxxxxxxxxx.

126

1 A. That was an error on my behalf. I then remembered that

2 it was Rodney and Joy, because I phoned the taxi for

3 Rodney to leave our house that evening.

4 Q. Well, did someone show you the taxi receipt?

5 A. Not that I can recall, no.

6 Q. But miraculously, when you get to the very end of your

7 interview, notwithstanding the detail you gave about

8 xxxxxxxxxx, you mention Smyth?

9 A. I was able to remember them.

10 Q. Are you sure today it was the Smyths?

11 A. Yes, I am, yes.

12 Q. How are you so sure today?

13 A. I just can remember that it was them that -- I cooked

14 a meal for us all, and I phoned the taxi for them to go

15 home.

16 Q. You wouldn't have cooked a meal if it had been the

17 xxxxxxxxxx, no?

18 A. I may have done, yes, but I can remember, clearly, now

19 that it was Rodney and Joy.

20 Q. Now, remember the detail that you went into in that

21 statement, regarding what was on the television as well,

22 on the Sky, and do you accept now that you got that

23 mistaken as well?

24 A. I do, yes.

25 Q. So that is another mistake. So we are mistaken about

127

1 the people and we are mistaken about how you spent the

2 evening?

3 A. That's right, yes.

4 Q. You see, I have to suggest to you, that you are mistaken

5 about other things as well, and I'm now going to go to

6 your statement and put specifics to you in relation to

7 which Mr Atkinson takes issue on.

8 I wonder, could we have the witness's statement of

9 25 October, which is [14908]? Now, that's the statement

10 you made on 25 October 2000, isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, before that statement was made, however, you made

13 a very short statement in June 2000; do you recall that?

14 A. Not off the top of my head.

15 Q. We will allow you an opportunity to have sight of that.

16 If the statement of June 2000 could be put on the

17 screen, please, which you will find at [14956].

18 So maybe before we go to the October statement, in

19 relation to the statement in June, how did that one come

20 about; is that the one when the two policemen arrived at

21 your door?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. Well, do you remember it?

24 A. I remember two policemen coming to my house. I had been

25 on a night shift.

128

1 Q. Right. What can you recall about the making of

2 that statement; that is a witness statement, isn't that

3 right? They didn't caution you, it was a witness

4 statement that you gave?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, can you just tell us the circumstances as to how

7 that statement came about?

8 A. I can't remember. Sorry, I can't remember how it come

9 about. Just when I was approached by the police,

10 I wasn't going to tell any further lies and get myself

11 in any further trouble, so I told them the truth of the

12 events.

13 Q. So you are saying the statement of June 2000 was the

14 truth of the events?

15 A. Is this this one here, is it?

16 Q. It is [14956], dated 20 June 2000.

17 A. That is -- I'm confused here, sorry. Could you ask me

18 that again?

19 Q. You made two statements in 2000?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. One on 20 June 2000, which is the first one, and that is

22 [14956], on the screen in front of you and the one

23 that's headed 20 June 2000, and it starts:

24 "I have been shown a witness statement made by

25 myself and dated 29 October 1997."

129

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "I can now state that parts of this statement are

3 untrue."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you made that statement in June 2000?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. That statement is very brief indeed compared to your

8 statement of 29 October 2000.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you explain to me what happened between June 2000

11 and October 2000 that gave rise to the potential for

12 such very great elaboration on your part?

13 A. I can't, no.

14 Q. You can't at all?

15 A. I just made a statement when I was asked to do so.

16 Q. Well, and that applies to each of those statements?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you understand why, in relation to 20 June, you give

19 that succinct statement, whereas on 25 October you give

20 a 13-page statement?

21 A. I just give -- well, I made statements what I was asked

22 to do so. The length and stuff, you know, I can't

23 recall now.

24 Q. You see, I have to suggest --

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us? Did a policeman sit

130

1 down with a pen and paper and say, "Right, you tell me",

2 and did you dictate it or were there questions put to

3 you as your statement was made, which you answered? Can

4 you remember now?

5 A. I can't recall, no.

6 MS DINSMORE: Were you asked to fill a questionnaire in?

7 A. No, I didn't fill any questionnaires, no.

8 Q. I have to suggest to you, the reason why this statement,

9 particularly the statement of the 13th or of the

10 25 October, it is an enormous fabrication of detail in

11 relation to a lot of stuff that you have made up.

12 A. It is not a fabrication.

13 Q. None of it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. None of it? Anything that we have illustrated --

16 A. The only fabrication is that I made a statement to say

17 I stayed at Robbie's house and a phone call was made.

18 That's the only fabrication.

19 Q. So anything that is now inaccurate or now is mistaken,

20 that is simply a mistake on your part?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So who was staying, et cetera, that we have gone through

23 this afternoon, that's all mistakes?

24 A. No, it is not a mistake that Rodney and Joy were at my

25 house, because they were. That is not a mistake. It

131

1 was an error on my behalf that I thought xxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxx

2 stayed. That is a mistake on my behalf.

3 Q. So any aspect of this which is not now conducive to what

4 you are thinking is, you say is an error?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's either an error or else it is simply indication of

7 a witness fabricating, and I have to suggest to you,

8 that's what it is.

9 A. Well, it's not. I don't agree.

10 Q. Well, if we turn then to specific allegations against

11 Mr Atkinson, which you have made in the statement of

12 25 October. And I'm obliged, particularly in light,

13 Mr Chairman, of the indication that you gave my friend

14 Mr McComb, I intend to, for the record, refute those

15 allegations, which I have specific instructions,

16 Mr Chair, that we are disputing.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: There will be no need to repeat the

18 challenges about which the witness has already been

19 asked.

20 MS DINSMORE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

21 Now, the first one --

22 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sure you will be asking yourself, before

23 you formulate your question, is this going to help the

24 Panel to arrive at the truth?

25 MS DINSMORE: Could page [14909] come up, please? If you

132

1 look at the last six lines of that -- five lines of

2 that -- you have said there:

3 "I remember that Michael actually got the unit in

4 Brownstown Business Centre through C, who was driving

5 for Bobby Jameson who owned the complex."

6 My instructions are that Michael did not in fact get

7 that complex via Mr Atkinson. What makes you think he

8 did?

9 A. Could you repeat that, please?

10 Q. You have said that Michael got the unit through

11 Robert Atkinson. Now, Robert Atkinson is saying that

12 that is incorrect, Michael did not. Now, I'm asking

13 you, what makes you say that?

14 A. Well, Robert used to work for Bobby Jameson and that was

15 his unit, that he owned it. So Robbie facilitated the

16 process of Michael becoming -- renting the property to

17 open a gym.

18 Q. Well, Mr Atkinson (a) denies that, and (b) when you use

19 a term like "he facilitated", tell us what the

20 understanding of the facilitation that you are referring

21 to?

22 A. Well, he talked to Bobby about how much the rent would

23 be and how many rooms would be available. He knew the

24 premises because he used to be based there. He knew it

25 would be a good idea for the gym to be there because of

133

1 parking and there was toilets, and it was suitable for

2 all the things that Michael was looking for.

3 Q. But you were in Foundry Street at that time?

4 A. But it wasn't big enough.

5 Q. So Foundry Street, but it had all those facilities as

6 well?

7 A. But the hall wasn't big enough for the students that

8 were coming, whereas Robbie knew this was a much bigger

9 hall.

10 Q. The other thing is you have no direct knowledge of any

11 of this?

12 A. I have.

13 Q. Were you there at some conversation which allegedly

14 Mr Atkinson had with Mr Jameson dealing with this issue;

15 were you?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Dinsmore, please, how is this going to

17 help us so arrive at this decision? Is this woman, when

18 she speaks of what happened, over a telephone call,

19 lying or not? Not whether she's made mistakes about

20 other things. There's all the difference in the world

21 between a mistake and a lie. How are we being helped?

22 MS DINSMORE: Well, then, if I go to the -- the meeting

23 where Davy, the police officer, allegedly overheard

24 Tracey Clarke, and you were present, now, you then went

25 to a cemetery with two police officers that evening?

134

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why did you not go to a police station?

3 A. I don't know. That's what they arranged.

4 Q. Do you have a reluctance to go to police stations?

5 A. Not at all.

6 Q. Were you nervous about going to the police stations?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you are saying, out of the blue, a police officer

9 arranged a meeting in a cemetery?

10 A. They will be able to tell you, I suppose, why it was

11 there. I don't know.

12 Q. But you did go to the police station when you were

13 accompanying Tracey Clarke?

14 A. She asked me to go to the police station, so I went,

15 yes.

16 Q. Now, in relation to the allegation regarding the

17 speaking of Michael, the telephone call from

18 Robert Atkinson, do you remember that call?

19 A. Say that again, sorry.

20 Q. Do you remember the call that you make reference to,

21 which allegedly happened between Michael and

22 Mr Atkinson?

23 A. I remember they had the telephone conversation, yes, but

24 Michael was talking to Robbie, so I didn't hear what

25 they were saying.

135

1 Q. Did you hear Michael's end?

2 A. Pardon.

3 Q. Did you hear what Michael was saying?

4 A. I can't recall it now word for word, but I was in the

5 vicinity when the conversation was taking place.

6 Q. I have to suggest to you that conversation never took

7 place. I also have to suggest to you that your

8 allegation that Mr Atkinson discussed matters with

9 Allister Hanvey never happened. How do you know that it

10 did? Where is your evidence on this?

11 A. Can you explain what you mean, please?

12 Q. What I mean is this. You have said in your statement

13 that Mr Atkinson contacted Allister Hanvey and discussed

14 matters with him. Now, you know nothing about that

15 directly. Any knowledge you have relates to

16 Tracey Clarke's outline, isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And isn't it correct to say, with the exception that

19 I am moving to very shortly of the actual staying over

20 at the home of the McKees or the home of the Atkinsons,

21 any evidence you have given is evidence you have heard

22 from other people?

23 A. I wasn't at the Atkinsons' house. I was at my own

24 house.

25 Q. We will move on to that in a moment. If you will just

136

1 deal with this. You have no direct knowledge at all.

2 Everything in relation to this allegation regarding the

3 phone call, the alleged phone call, that was being

4 derived from what Tracey Clarke has told you?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. And if Tracey Clarke has told you a lot of lies --

7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's comment, isn't it?

8 A. But Robbie had --

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get on then, please.

10 MS DINSMORE: In relation to the meeting in Sean Hagan's

11 office, is it correct to say he wasn't your solicitor?

12 A. No, he was one that Robbie arranged for us.

13 Q. And isn't it correct to say that was a facility that was

14 made available as an alternative to the police station?

15 A. I don't know. Just what Robbie arranged that. I don't

16 know what the alternative was.

17 Q. Isn't it correct to say that things were very difficult

18 in Portadown at that time, and often people were

19 reluctant to give interviews in police station?

20 A. I wasn't reluctant to go to the police station. Just

21 that's what Robbie arranged for it to be at the

22 solicitor's office.

23 Q. Then if we move to the actual night in question, apropos

24 the house, isn't it correct to say it is a semi-detached

25 house?

137

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you had stayed on a few occasions?

3 A. One occasion.

4 Q. One occasion before that? Isn't it correct to say one

5 goes up the stairs and it turns round and there's three

6 bedrooms and a bathroom?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that you would have stayed in xxxxxxxxxx's room?

9 A. On one occasion, yes, I stayed there.

10 Q. Well, two occasions?

11 A. No, I have only ever stayed in Robbie's house on one

12 occasion.

13 Q. In xxxxxxxxxx's room, isn't it correct to say there was

14 a double bed?

15 A. I can't recall.

16 Q. If you were sleeping in it with Michael, are you sure

17 you can't recall?

18 A. No, I can't recall.

19 Q. As one gets up to the top of the stairs, the bathroom is

20 immediately to one's left and the bedroom you stayed in

21 is straight ahead?

22 A. I can't recall the layout of upstairs.

23 Q. What I am suggesting to you is the layout is such that

24 it's quite feasible for Mr Atkinson to be present in

25 that home, in the next bedroom, and you not see him or

138

1 hear him; do you accept that? Sorry, I apologise. You

2 accept that, yes?

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know one way or the other?

4 A. I can't remember the layout of upstairs. I would never

5 think to go looking in somebody's bedroom to know who

6 was there or who wasn't.

7 MS DINSMORE: This is a bedroom you have slept in, of

8 course.

9 A. I stayed once in xxxxxxxxxx's room.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the point you are seeking to make?

11 Are you seeking to suggest that she got into the room

12 unbeknown to Mr Atkinson?

13 MS DINSMORE: Not at all. What I am suggesting is this,

14 that there is no question that it could not have

15 occurred that Mr Atkinson was present in the home when

16 these this couple was present and that they were unaware

17 of him being there.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, well...

19 MS DINSMORE: Because you are aware that -- your case is you

20 were never at the Atkinsons' that night at all?

21 A. Not on the night -- on that night, no, I was at home.

22 Q. Well, I have to suggest to you you are wrong on that?

23 A. I am not wrong at all. I was at home. I telephoned

24 a taxi after 2 in the morning for Rodney Smyth to leave

25 my house, so I'm not wrong.

139

1 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mr Emmerson.

3 Examination by MR EMMERSON

4 MR EMMERSON: Ms McKee, I represent the Director of Public

5 Prosecutions for Northern Ireland and I want to ask you

6 some questions about some fairly narrow issues

7 concerning your position as a witness in the prosecution

8 against Mr and Mrs Atkinson and Mr Hanvey, in particular

9 your reasons for not attending the committal hearing on

10 22 December.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your visit to the Pendine Out-of-Hours Surgery, which

13 you told us was on the night of 19, Friday, the 19th, is

14 that right?

15 A. I think it was Saturday evening.

16 Q. Well --

17 A. Friday or Saturday evening.

18 Q. You have given various different answers at various

19 different times about that. Perhaps it doesn't matter

20 in the end whether it was the night of Friday, 19th into

21 the early hours of Saturday, 20th or the night of

22 Saturday, 20th into the early hours of Sunday, 21st, but

23 we can look at both options in a moment or two.

24 What I want to do with you, so you know where I'm

25 going before I start, is I want to look at how it was

140

1 that when you first mentioned that visit to Pendine to

2 anybody in authority, as an explanation for your failure

3 to attend, and I want to make it clear to you at this

4 stage that there is no dispute that your son was ill at

5 the time, that there had been visits to the doctors with

6 potential suspicions of mumps. What I want to do is

7 explore with you the truthfulness -- and I make it

8 clear, the truthfulness rather than the reliability or

9 accuracy -- of your account about your visit to Pendine,

10 and I want to do that with you in some little detail.

11 Before we look at the chronology, could I ask you

12 just one matter. You told us in your evidence earlier

13 in answer to questions from Mr Underwood that you did

14 not go into the consultation room with your partner and

15 the baby at the time when the doctor physically examined

16 your baby; is that correct?

17 A. I recall I was in the waiting room.

18 Q. And you remained in the waiting room while this

19 examination took place; is that correct?

20 A. I think that's correct, yes.

21 Q. Now, that is something that you mentioned, I believe,

22 for the first time when you were interviewed by a man

23 called Gerry Simpson QC, who was conducting

24 a consultation or interview with you about this visit to

25 Pendine; do you remember that meeting?

141

1 A. Not off the top of my head.

2 Q. I will take you to the document in a little while. But

3 you do remember a number of meetings with barristers who

4 were prosecuting the case who wanted to ascertain the

5 truth of the account that you had given?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember one occasion telling one of those

8 barristers that the doctor who had examined your son had

9 grey hair?

10 A. I can't recall now, no.

11 Q. We will come back to that and look at the documents in

12 a moment. Do you remember later at another meeting with

13 a more senior barrister, being confronted with the fact

14 that there was no record of your attendance, but there

15 was no doctor with grey hair working at the surgery. Do

16 you remember that being put to you?

17 A. I can't recall that, no.

18 Q. We will look at that again in a moment or two. It was

19 again, I suggest, for the first time you told anybody in

20 authority that you had not gone into the consultation

21 room with your sick child for the examination; do you

22 remember that?

23 A. I can't recall it. I just remember being there and my

24 partner was with us, and I was upset and worried about

25 his condition.

142

1 Q. Yes, I am sure you were very worried. What I want to

2 explore with you is why, if you were so worried about

3 your child, you sat in the waiting room whilst he was

4 being examined by a doctor?

5 A. Sorry?

6 Q. Madam, did you not hear the question?

7 MR UNDERWOOD: I didn't hear a question either.

8 MR EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I thought I made the question

9 clear. Why is it that, as a lady quite naturally

10 concerned about their baby's illness that night, you

11 remained in the waiting room while your partner took the

12 baby into the consulting room for the examination?

13 A. He was with his dad. You know, I wasn't sure that there

14 is a problem with that, his dad taking him into see the

15 doctor.

16 Q. There's no problem, but isn't it natural that, as the

17 mother who had taken him to the doctor's in the past,

18 who had been with him when he had been examined by the

19 doctors in the past, that you would want to be there

20 while the baby was being examined?

21 A. I was happy for his dad to take him into the --

22 Q. Did you have any particular reason for wanting to remain

23 in the waiting room?

24 A. Not at all, no.

25 Q. So can we take it that you didn't see the examination

143

1 taking place?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. You didn't see what the doctor did to the baby?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. You didn't see him touch the baby?

6 A. No, I didn't see.

7 Q. Or see whether he made any notes of what he was doing at

8 the time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. None of that was taking place in your presence?

11 A. No.

12 Q. We will come back to that, if we may.

13 Just to sketch in the broad chronology, so that we

14 have it clear, you attended the Magistrates' Court for

15 the first time for committal proceedings as a witness on

16 27 October; is that right?

17 A. I can't recall exact dates, but...

18 Q. Well, I think we can get the date from your witness

19 statement, if we need to. I don't think there is any

20 dispute about it.

21 A. No.

22 Q. But on that occasion, the hearing could not proceed; do

23 you remember that?

24 A. I can't remember what happened on what particular times.

25 Q. Well, let's see if we can go through it carefully with

144

1 you then, if there is any difficulty with your

2 recollection. Do you remember going to the Magistrates'

3 Court on one occasion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Take it from me that that was 27 October. Do you

6 remember that on that occasion the hearing could not

7 proceed?

8 A. I remember I had a journey over and nothing went on.

9 Q. Yes, and were you aware, when you left court that day,

10 of the date at which you were being required to return?

11 A. I can't recall. I knew I would have another journey

12 back, but I can't remember when the date was going to be

13 or if I was told when the date would be.

14 Q. You were though, were you not, told about the date in

15 early December?

16 A. I can't recall that. I don't know what particular day

17 I was told.

18 Q. You knew that you were required to attend on Monday,

19 22 December, did you not?

20 A. I would have known that I was to return because travel

21 arrangements would have been made.

22 Q. Exactly. Could I ask, please, for page [81018] to be

23 brought up? This is a witness statement made by

24 a female police officer, whose name you know and we

25 know, but who is referred to in these proceedings as

145

1 P29, who was liaising with you.

2 If we would turn to page [81021], paragraph 15.

3 Now, on 19 December, witness P29 contacted you,

4 I suggest, to make the travel arrangements for your

5 attendance. Do you remember that phone call taking

6 place?

7 A. Not clearly, but you know, I can't dispute that that

8 happened.

9 Q. That wasn't the first you knew of the date, was it?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No, you already knew about the date in advance of that

12 telephone call, this was simply a call to make the

13 travel arrangements; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And she told you about the way in which the travel would

16 take place. There was going to be a flight, I think; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes, there would have been a flight, yes.

19 Q. And I just want to clarify one matter with you. You

20 will see if you look at this paragraph, I will read just

21 the last three or four lines of it:

22 "She [that is you] did not appear to be any

23 different in her manner from when I saw her in October

24 2003. Andrea McKee did not mention during our

25 conversation either that her son was ill or that she had

146

1 been to the surgery with him."

2 Did you say anything to the police officer about the

3 possibility that you may have difficulties because your

4 son was ill?

5 A. I can't recall if I did or I didn't. I can't recall

6 that, no.

7 Q. But there was another problem you had for the following

8 week, wasn't there? Apart from your son's illness,

9 there was an appointment you had, wasn't there?

10 A. I had a medical to attend.

11 Q. You yourself were required to attend a medical for a job

12 application; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that for the Tuesday morning?

15 A. I can't remember when it was for.

16 Q. We will look at what you have said on previous

17 occasions, but work on the basis for the moment that it

18 was on the morning of Tuesday, the 23rd. Can you tell

19 us, please, what that was all about, that appointment?

20 I don't mean the medical concern, but what was the

21 purpose of the medical appointment?

22 A. It was procedure. It was normal protocol to have

23 a medical for a new job.

24 Q. Yes. So you had applied for a job; that is right?

25 A. Yes.

147

1 Q. You had been approved in principle, subject to a medical

2 examination?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you needed to be back at home in Wrexham by Tuesday

5 morning, didn't you, for the medical appointment?

6 A. I would have -- well, if I couldn't have attended that

7 one, I could have had another one, but I had to attend

8 a medical at some point.

9 Q. So when you were discussing the travel arrangements that

10 you needed to make with witness P29, which would have

11 involved you being in Northern Ireland on the Monday,

12 with presumably no certainty of how long you would be

13 there, did you tell her then that you needed to be back

14 by the Tuesday morning because you had a medical

15 appointment?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, Mr Emmerson, that is a comment

17 inserted into a question. The first thing you need to

18 ask her is whether she knew that she would have no idea

19 when, on Monday, she would finish.

20 MR EMMERSON: With respect, that is a counter comment.

21 Plainly, the witness can't have known how long she would

22 have been in the witness box, because it's in the nature

23 of witnesses giving evidence that there may be delays

24 and witnesses may be held over.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Then --

148

1 MR UNDERWOOD: I will be leading evidence later that

2 Mrs McKee had unequivocally said on earlier occasions

3 that she was expecting to be in Northern Ireland only

4 for one day. So if my learned friend is putting

5 something contrary to that, namely that the travel

6 arrangements are open-ended, perhaps he could put it.

7 MR EMMERSON: Well, the travel arrangement were being made

8 during this conversation; is that correct?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. The purpose of the conversation was to make the travel

11 arrangements?

12 A. For going, yes, but for the return, I would imagine

13 I usually would go and come back on one day, travel

14 early in the morning and then try and get a flight later

15 in the day.

16 Q. Did you raise with witness P29 the fact that you could

17 not spill over into the second day? Did you inform her

18 of the appointment you had on the Tuesday morning?

19 A. The appointment wasn't that relevant because if I didn't

20 attend that, I could have had a medical at any time.

21 Q. Well, you telephoned, I think, then on the 21st to

22 notify the police that you did not intend to attend the

23 following morning; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you spoke eventually to witness P29 again; is that

149

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If we look at page [81021], paragraph 17, that officer

4 has there recorded the conversation:

5 "Andrea told me that her son had mumps and orchitis.

6 She explained that her son's testicles were swollen and

7 there was concern that her son might fit because of his

8 high temperature. Andrea explained that her child's

9 illness had started two weeks earlier with an ear

10 infection and that she had taken him to see the doctor

11 on two occasions ..."

12 So two occasions at that stage:

13 "... and the doctor had visited her home on one

14 occasion. She was going to take her son to the doctor

15 on Monday morning."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You did not mention to that officer, did you, on the

19 21st, the Sunday, that you had had to take your baby to

20 the out-of-hours surgery at Pendine in the night of

21 either the Friday or the Saturday?

22 A. From that, no, I didn't mention that.

23 Q. Any reason for that?

24 A. No, not that I can recall, no.

25 Q. Wouldn't that be, with respect, the most important

150

1 information to give the police officer since it was the

2 most recent medical attendance that had occurred?

3 A. I was giving information that my son wasn't well, and

4 therefore I wouldn't be attending.

5 Q. More than that, you had given her specific attendances

6 that had happened earlier in the month and an

7 appointment that you had made for the 22nd, but not the

8 fact that the child had been so sick that he had had to

9 be taken into hospital during the night of either the

10 Friday or the Saturday?

11 A. He wasn't taken into hospital.

12 Q. You took him into hospital, or into the medical centre?

13 A. I took him to the medical centre. It is not a hospital.

14 Q. Very well. I stand corrected. Was it not the most

15 relevant and up-to-date information as to the condition

16 that your child was in? That is a question.

17 A. Sorry. Well, I was just doing my best to let them know

18 that he wasn't well and I wouldn't be attending.

19 Q. Very well. You were aware, were you, then that the

20 following morning the hearing had to be adjourned; that

21 was information that was later conveyed to you, is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you aware that it had been adjourned by the

25 magistrate on the strict condition that the reliability

151

1 of the medical information that had been provided by you

2 should be thoroughly investigated?

3 A. I wasn't --

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Would my friend put that rather more

5 accurately? Perhaps he could put a note of what it was

6 that the magistrate had required, because my

7 understanding is he asked for a medical certificate.

8 MR EMMERSON: At the request of defence counsel --

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps my friend could put what it was the

10 magistrate required --

11 MR EMMERSON: The magistrate required, as one would expect,

12 medical evidence to substantiate the reasons for the

13 witness's non-attendance. Is that something that you

14 were aware of?

15 A. No, all I was aware was that my son was unwell and I was

16 taking him to the doctor. I didn't know...

17 Q. You did take him to the doctor that morning because we

18 have seen a record of it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You didn't mention to the doctor that you had taken him

21 to the Pendine over the weekend?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Because I was there with the doctor now, so he was

25 getting attention.

152

1 Q. You know, because it's been brought to your attention,

2 I think in the past and in the course of your evidence

3 today, that there is not only no record of your

4 attendance, but no recollection on the part of any

5 person who was on duty at the Pendine of you or of

6 anybody by your name attending that weekend or at all in

7 December?

8 A. I am aware. As I say, I can't answer for that as to why

9 there is no record. I attended with my son to A&E and

10 he was admitted to a children's ward, but there was no

11 record of that either.

12 Q. On the 23rd, the day of your medical appointment, did

13 you attend the appointment?

14 A. Sorry, say that again?

15 Q. Did you attend your medical examination on the morning

16 of the Tuesday for your job interview?

17 A. I can't remember, if I didn't I didn't. I can't recall.

18 Q. Do you remember what the application for the job was

19 for?

20 A. I can remember what it was.

21 Q. You can't remember whether you had to cancel the

22 appointment on the Tuesday?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. You contacted the police on the Tuesday to say that you

25 had received a threatening letter; is that right?

153

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was received when?

3 A. I can't remember the exact day, sorry.

4 Q. Did you call the police on the day it was received or

5 did you sit on it for a day or two?

6 A. No, I called the police straight away.

7 Q. In the course of exploring the medical evidence,

8 substantiating your explanation for non-attendance, were

9 you called to a meeting with a barrister called

10 Christine Smith and with a man called Ivor Morrison, the

11 Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions?

12 A. Their names are familiar, yes.

13 Q. Could we, please, call up page [33991]? This is

14 a record of that meeting. I want to just go to certain

15 passages of it with you because the purpose of the

16 meeting, amongst other things, was to assess the

17 reliability and the truthfulness of the account that you

18 had given of the medical appointment that you had had at

19 the Pendine. Do you remember that being the subject of

20 discussion?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just look at the bottom of the first page. You explain

23 how you came to go into the Pendine on that either the

24 Friday to Saturday or Saturday to Sunday night. Three

25 lines up from the bottom:

154

1 "I phone surgery and I go direct to late night

2 surgery -- bounces on -- automatically redirected to

3 Pendine Park Nursing Home/Doctor's Surgery. Phoned

4 quite late -- after 11 pm."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So the first contact you are telling the barrister was

8 initiated by you telephoning your surgery and the phone

9 call being automatically redirected; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. To the Pendine, then your partner spoke to someone;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That's someone at the Pendine, is it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was told to give the baby Calpol, and they would

17 phone back after an hour to see how he was; correct?

18 A. I think we were to phone back.

19 Q. Well, what you are recorded as having said is that they

20 were to phone back. You go on to say:

21 "When they phoned, [the] temperature [was] still too

22 high, so we took him in ..."; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is over the page. Do you see that? The first

25 three lines?

155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So two telephone calls. One from your house via the

3 local surgery, put through to the Pendine, and another

4 from the Pendine back to your house, giving you

5 instruction; correct?

6 A. Yes, I am not sure if it was from the house. I think it

7 was from a mobile.

8 Q. And to a mobile?

9 A. No, it wouldn't have been to a mobile. It would have

10 been to my doctor's surgery.

11 Q. So do you have a landline in your home?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why would you use your mobile? Sorry, Mrs McKee?

14 A. I don't know. There is no set rule to what phone

15 I would use when I am making a phone call.

16 Q. What number would you have given then?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. You know that the telephone records do not show any

19 telephone calls to you or from you in relation to the

20 Pendine that night, don't you, or either of those

21 nights?

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, I wonder if my friend could be

23 a little more specific? They don't show any phone calls

24 to or from her home phone.

25 MR EMMERSON: That's correct. You know that, don't you?

156

1 A. I could have used my mobile phone. I don't know for

2 sure that I used a landline.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just so that I follow, Mr Emmerson, if there

4 is a phone call from her landline, without the caller

5 saying, there's some automatic way of registering at the

6 receiving end the number of the caller?

7 MR EMMERSON: If there is a telephone call to a landline or

8 from a landline?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: From a landline.

10 MR EMMERSON: If I dial a telephone number from my landline,

11 that will show up, obviously, on telephone records, is

12 that the question you are asking?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I am wondering if the system they had at

14 the establishment to which the witness says she was

15 phoning, would that automatically be able to say from

16 what number the call was being made?

17 MR EMMERSON: Just to be clear, the investigations are not

18 confined to the records held at the Pendine, which do

19 not disclose any calls, either records relating to an

20 enquiry, or an attendance or a telephone call, or the

21 landline records of Ms McKee's home address.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

23 MR EMMERSON: So there's simply no record at neither end,

24 independently examined, of any telecommunication between

25 the two.

157

1 Let's just carry on, if we may, Ms McKee. You say,

2 or you are recorded as having said, to Ms Smith, when

3 the Pendine phoned you back:

4 "... [his] temperature [was] still too high, so

5 we took him in ..."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That is your partner, your child and yourself to

9 Pendine Park?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You say you don't know who your partner spoke to. You

12 don't know if he knows who he spoke to, but it was

13 a lady doctor who phoned back; correct?

14 A. I can't recall these details accurately now.

15 Q. This is what you said in the course of a meeting on

16 9 January 2004. Have you any reason to contradict the

17 record of what it is you are recorded as having said?

18 A. No.

19 Q. If we just drop down a little?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Just let's finish that bit of the paragraph:

21 "A lady doctor phoned back because I had

22 spoken to her before. I think it was a doctor."

23 MR EMMERSON: You say a little further down:

24 "I am sure she is a doctor ... because I spoke to

25 her before."

158

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Which paragraph is that?

3 Q. "I spoke to [the] lady doctor - don't know if she

4 introduced herself. I'm sure she is a doctor because

5 I spoke to her before."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When had you spoken to this lady doctor before?

8 A. It would have been when the initial call was made.

9 Q. Was it you who conducted the initial call or your

10 partner? A little earlier on you seemed to be saying it

11 was your partner who spoke to somebody?

12 A. I am sure it was my partner.

13 Q. So when you say you had spoken to the lady doctor

14 before, and that is how you are sure it was a doctor,

15 who are you referring to and when was the contact

16 between you?

17 A. I don't know. I am mistaken here.

18 Q. I see. Go down two lines further on:

19 "[I] think it was the Friday night ..."

20 You told us a moment ago you thought it was the

21 Saturday night:

22 "... after 11 pm. At Pendine Park early hours of

23 Saturday morning 18th/19th [it] would've been ..."

24 In fact the Saturday, as the note indicates, would

25 have been the 19/20th:

159

1 "Nothing sticks in [my] mind to make me sure [it] was

2 [the] Friday ..."

3 But on the Saturday you said you thought you would

4 be going shopping with your mother.

5 If we can just drop down to just below halfway down

6 the page, a line beginning, "Lady doctor asked"; do you

7 see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is still a reference, it appears, to the telephone

10 conversation:

11 "Lady doctor asked what medication he was on and

12 said just to keep giving Calpol, reduce his clothing and

13 keep a damp flannel on him - she rang back after an hour

14 and said to bring him in."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "We took him over to [the] surgery on her advice. [We] went

18 to Pendine Park in [a] car, a distance of about

19 1 - 1.5 miles."

20 Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes. I remember the journey in the car.

22 Q. "[The] receptionist was [a] female. [There were] not many

23 people there. They were waiting for us. [We] went in.

24 [The] doctor said, 'Bring him through'. [A] male doctor,

25 [I] can't remember [his] name. [And then this] he felt

160

1 round his neck, listened to his chest."

2 How did you know that, Mrs McKee?

3 A. I must have gone through with him to say that. I must

4 have gone through with him, but I don't know. I thought

5 his dad did.

6 Q. I asked you about that a little earlier on. You were

7 clear both in your evidence when you were first asked

8 questions and in the clear series of questions that

9 I asked you earlier on, you did not go in. Indeed you

10 were quite clear there was no reason why you should,

11 even when I put to you that it was the natural instinct

12 of a mother to do so.

13 A. I have taken my son to that many doctors to be seen,

14 I am not sure if I can remember which one I was in and

15 which one I wasn't.

16 Q. You said, I suggest, you didn't go in because you knew

17 you had a problem with the description you gave of the

18 doctor?

19 A. All I know is, and I have said this to you before, my

20 son was unwell and I was taking him to a doctor.

21 Q. Very well. Can we turn to page [33993], the following

22 page, second paragraph:

23 "At Pendine surgery I was carrying [presumably the

24 baby]. [My partner] spoke to [the] receptionist. [The]

25 receptionist could've been [the] person I spoke to on

161

1 phone. [The] doctor opened [the] door. [He was] old. [He had]

2 grey hair. [I] didn't see [the] receptionist making notes.

3 She could've done. [The] doctor didn't take any notes

4 when we were there."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. I see that, yes.

7 Q. Again, I'm suggesting to you, if you had not been in the

8 room where the consultation took place, you wouldn't

9 know one way or the other whether the doctor took notes,

10 would you, and I asked you that earlier on?

11 A. I can't recall if I was in the room or I wasn't in the

12 room.

13 Q. But you were quite clear on this occasion that you were

14 in a position to say what took place inside the room,

15 weren't you?

16 A. This is indicating that I am. I haven't got it clear.

17 Q. You also gave a description of the doctor's appearance;

18 he was an old man with grey hair, wasn't he?

19 A. I have said that there, yes.

20 Q. That there wasn't an elderly man with grey hair, or

21 indeed any doctor with grey hair working at the surgery

22 that weekend, Ms McKee?

23 A. I am aware of that now, yes.

24 Q. Isn't that why you came up with the story about not

25 going into the room with the doctor?

162

1 A. There is no story. My son wasn't well. I have said

2 this over and over again, and he was taken to see

3 a doctor. It is not a story.

4 Q. Can we turn, please, to page [33916]? This is a record

5 by Gerry Simpson, senior counsel, who conducted

6 a further interview with you to test the veracity and

7 reliability of your account of this meeting, and your

8 reasons therefore for not attending on 22 December.

9 That was a meeting that you again attended, and it was

10 on 2 March. Do you remember meeting that gentleman?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as you will see there in the first paragraph, the

13 purpose of the consultation was for Mr Simpson to have

14 the opportunity to assess you and your credibility in

15 the light of the developments that had occurred as

16 a result of the investigation into the truth of what you

17 had been saying about this visit.

18 As you will see, in the following sentence:

19 "The consultation arises out of the failure of

20 Ms [McKee] to attend court on 22 December and the

21 subsequent police investigations directed by the

22 resident magistrate into the reasons for her

23 non-attendance."

24 I just want to pick it up, if I can, please, towards

25 the bottom of that page. If we start -- I'm sorry.

163

1 If I can just ask you to start at paragraph 4, you

2 will see at paragraph 4:

3 "On Friday, 19th, Ms [McKee] was contacted by DCP29 to

4 confirm the final travel arrangements. She did not

5 mention the problems with the child to DCP29 but

6 indicated that the arrangements were suitable. In

7 consultation with her I [that is Mr Simpson] asked her about this

8 failure to alert the police to any potential difficulty

9 which the sickness of the child might cause. She [that

10 is you] told us that she had thought that she had

11 mentioned it to police and agreed that it was surprising

12 that she didn't mention the illness of the child to

13 DCP29."

14 Is that your recollection of what you said during

15 the course of the meeting with Mr Simpson?

16 A. I can't recall that.

17 Q. If we turn over to page [33917], and to paragraph 12,

18 again, if we can just -- sorry to correct that. If we

19 can just look at paragraph 11 as well, this document

20 records the investigations that had been conducted and

21 the system for recording those who attend at Pendine,

22 which would include not only records within Pendine

23 itself, but a communication to your GP.

24 So not only did you not tell your GP when you went

25 in there on the Monday morning that you had been to

164

1 Pendine over the weekend, but Pendine didn't tell your

2 GP because they had no record of you having been there.

3 You understand that background?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And as you will see in paragraph 11, the records had

6 been checked for the whole of the month to see if you

7 might have been mistaken by a day or two, and there's no

8 record of any such attendance at any point. Do you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At paragraph 12:

12 " Ms [McKee] described the doctor who, she says, saw

13 the child as being a male doctor with grey hair."

14 This is a reference it the description that you gave

15 in the interview on 9 January with Ms Smith:

16 "None of the duty doctors fits that description.

17 When asked about this at the consultation, she sought to

18 explain away this matter by saying that it was not she

19 who took the child in to see the doctor, but her

20 partner. She says that she waited in the reception area

21 and may have mistakenly thought that the person who

22 called her partner and the child in was the doctor.

23 This is in direct conflict with her version of events

24 when spoken to on 9th January when she told those who

25 consulted with her that she had been present when the

165

1 doctor examined the child. She specifically stated that

2 the doctor was old with grey hair."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This was the first time you came up with the suggestion

6 that you hadn't gone into the room for the examination.

7 It was when you were taxed by Mr Simpson with the fact

8 that you had given a description of the doctor that

9 couldn't match any of the doctors that had been on duty.

10 That is correct, isn't it?

11 A. None of it is -- I just can't recall which doctor and

12 when.

13 Q. That's not the question I am asking you. The question

14 I am asking you is the first time you came up with the

15 explanation that you gave in your evidence before

16 I confronted you with the notes of the 9 January

17 meeting, the first time you came up with the explanation

18 that you hadn't gone into the room, as one might expect

19 a mother with a sick baby would do, for the purposes of

20 the examination itself, was when you were confronted by

21 Mr Simpson during the course of this consultation with

22 the fact that you had described a doctor, who could not

23 fit the description of any of the doctors that were on

24 duty on either night?"

25 That is right, isn't it?

166

1 A. If I have made a mistake, I accept that, with

2 descriptions.

3 Q. And again, similarly, whether you went into the room or

4 not, what's your final position in relation to that?

5 A. It's not clear. I can't remember if I did or I didn't.

6 Q. If we turn to paragraph 14:

7 "Unless the whole system of dealing with, and

8 recording visits of, patients at Pendine Park is fatally

9 flawed; unless all the doctors were mistaken about her

10 attendance; and unless the available telephone records

11 are incomplete then the inevitable conclusion is that

12 Ms [McKee] has concocted the story about taking the

13 child to that surgery. That is the view that I take

14 having consulted with her about the matter. She is

15 able, and quick, to think of apparently plausible

16 explanations for apparent problems when they are pointed

17 out to her (e.g. her present explanation for the

18 non-existence of the old, grey-haired doctor as

19 contrasted with her original version of the visit).

20 "I offered her an opportunity [as did Mr Underwood]

21 to admit that her story was untrue and to give us the

22 true explanation. She maintained that the version she

23 had given was true."

24 Was it communicated to you then or shortly

25 afterwards that a view had been taken that your evidence

167

1 was unreliable in relation to that?

2 A. Not that I remember, no. I wasn't able to attend on

3 that day, but I was -- that was only on that occasion.

4 I was able to attend at a later occasion. I didn't have

5 a problem with that.

6 Q. Could I just ask you briefly about that? When you were

7 seen by Ms Smith on 9 January, putting it very

8 succinctly, was the position this, that you did not feel

9 you would be able to attend if you were still living at

10 the address where you were then living?

11 A. I had concerns for my safety, as I have had done today.

12 And I'm here today, and I didn't have any problems with

13 attending when I was asked to do so. I just couldn't

14 attend on that day because my son was unwell.

15 MR EMMERSON: Those are my questions. Thank you.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.

17 MR GREEN: Sir, I have one line of Inquiry. I don't know

18 whether the witness is able to proceed.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: We will have a quarter of an hour's break.

20 (3.35 pm)

21 (A short break)

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Green.

23 Examination by MR GREEN

24 MR GREEN: Mrs McKee, I am going to take you back now to

25 1997 again, and to the events that you recalled

168

1 occurring on 27 April.

2 Now, you have already told us that the relationship

3 you had with Tracey Clarke was a quite close one, isn't

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I think you described her as like a sister

7 relationship between the two of you, you being the older

8 sister?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were 25 and she was 17?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you give us some idea of your assessment of her

13 character at that time? What sort of person she was?

14 A. I just think she was like a happy-go-lucky girl.

15 Q. Was she well adjusted?

16 A. I would say. Yes.

17 Q. And was she an honest person?

18 A. As far as I know she was, yes.

19 Q. Did she ever give you any reason to doubt her honesty

20 and integrity?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And would you have acted on her word as a 17 year-old;

23 if she told you something was true, would you tend to

24 believe her?

25 A. I would have believed Tracey, yes.

169

1 Q. Have you any reason to have a different opinion of her

2 now?

3 A. Well, I know what she has done has been very, very

4 serious, and on reflection now, I'm aware that, you

5 know, she is trying to turn it all around. Not to bring

6 herself, you know, any further with it, I suppose.

7 Q. And is that re-evaluation of her character, if you

8 compared it with an evaluation you would have made in

9 1997, a surprise to you?

10 A. It's not a surprise to me that she is saying what she is

11 saying, because she is in a really difficult situation.

12 I wouldn't -- I am disappointed in what she is doing,

13 but it is not a surprise.

14 Q. Now, she called to your house on 27 April. If we can

15 just bring up your statement to the Inquiry at page

16 [81486], I think. If we can just go to the last page of

17 that, please. Now, that's dated 7 January of this year;

18 is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That was compiled from an interview you had with the

21 Inquiry in the year or so before that statement is

22 signed in January of this year, isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It is a compilation of discussions you have had with

25 other people during that time. Isn't that right?

170

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we can go back to paragraph 8, I think, on the second

3 page, just highlight the paragraphs 8, 9, 10 and 11,

4 please.

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Paragraph 8 reads:

8 "On Sunday morning 27 April 1997 Tracey came to our

9 house."

10 If I can just stop it there; was that a frequent

11 occurrence for her?

12 A. Tracey would have called up to our house at any time.

13 You would have never known when she was going to pop in.

14 Q. Was your house an open house, that people could come and

15 go without announcement?

16 A. Not everyone, no, but Tracey lived across the road from

17 us. So she would have come from time to time.

18 Q. And it wouldn't have been out of the blue or out of the

19 normal thing for her to just pay a visit on any Sunday

20 morning, for instance, and this is nothing out of the

21 ordinary for her to do this.

22 A. No, that is normal behaviour.

23 Q. When she came to your house she told you and Michael

24 about a fight in the town centre of Portadown the

25 previous night?

171

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The next sentence is:

3 "She was all excited by it and it was just like

4 buzzing news for her."

5 Do you remember telling the Inquiry that she was

6 excited about it and it was just like buzzing news for

7 her? Do you remember actually telling the person that,

8 giving them that phrase?

9 A. That is an accurate impression that I --

10 Q. That's why I am asking you about it. It is an

11 impression that you have relayed a significant period of

12 time after the event you are describing, and is it clear

13 in your mind that that was the impression she created?

14 A. I can remember back to that morning and when she came in

15 through the door, you know, she was --

16 Q. What did you think was giving her a buzz or an

17 excitement about it?

18 A. She just had so much to talk about, I suppose.

19 Q. Was she portraying by her excitement or the buzz that

20 she was glad about what had happened?

21 A. No, she wasn't.

22 Q. It was just news for her?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you get the impression she was giving you news

25 about something or telling you something that she had

172

1 herself seen?

2 A. I couldn't answer that accurately now. It was -- she

3 had been in the town and, you know, she had seen things,

4 but I can't --

5 Q. Your next paragraph, paragraph 9:

6 "Tracey told us that she had been to the Coach Inn

7 at Banbridge and when they got back into the town she

8 was sitting outside one of the shops. I cannot remember

9 the name of it now, it was Poundsaver or

10 Poundstretcher."

11 Did you know Portadown at the time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you know that there was in fact a Poundstretcher

14 in Portadown?

15 A. I can recall that there was a shop of that name.

16 Q. And have you visualise now where that would be in

17 relation to Thomas Street, for instance?

18 A. I couldn't recall that now, no.

19 Q. Perhaps the IT could bring up the virtual reality of

20 Poundstretcher, please? Do you see between Menarys and

21 Castle Hardware, is that Poundstretcher?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If we pan to the left there, the street that we come to

24 beyond the street sign on the left-hand side, is that

25 Thomas Street?

173

1 A. As far as I can remember.

2 Q. In between Number 7 Bakery and the Carphone Warehouse,

3 I think that is Thomas Street. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If we can just pan back to Poundstretcher. That seemed

6 to be where Tracey Clarke was telling you she was at

7 some point during the night when she saw something

8 happen in Portadown, isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can we just go back to your statement, please?

11 A. That's what she told in the police interview. I don't

12 recall her telling me that specifically, but she said

13 that in her police interview.

14 Q. That is why I am asking you. Paragraph 9 there is

15 you -- correct me if I am wrong -- telling the Inquiry

16 that on Sunday morning, 27 April, that Tracey told you,

17 you and Michael, that she had been to the Coach Inn in

18 Banbridge. You can't remember the name of it now, but

19 it was Poundsaver or Poundstretcher which was the shop

20 she was sitting outside of?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that what she was telling you on the morning of

23 Sunday, 27th or not?

24 A. She just said she was sitting there on the floor with

25 somebody.

174

1 Q. And she mentioned Poundstretcher to you; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And she said she was sitting on the floor watching some

4 fighting going on?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And she said that Robbie Atkinson was there and he told

7 her to get from there and get home, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that's you casting your mind back to the events that

10 she was relaying to you on 27 April 1997, and that is

11 the detail that she went into on that morning, isn't

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. She didn't go into any further or greater detail?

15 A. That's it.

16 Q. Because if she had, you would have recorded that, isn't

17 that right?

18 A. Yes, that's my recollection now of what I can recall

19 from that morning.

20 Q. Because had she gone into more detail and started naming

21 names, that would have been your opportunity there to

22 tell the Inquiry what in fact she told you beyond simply

23 where she was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in a very general sense what she saw?

175

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Paragraph 10:

3 "I knew Robbie Atkinson as a Reserve constable. His

4 daughter attended the Tae Kwon Do. Michael and

5 I socialised with Robbie and his wife Eleanor."

6 Then paragraph 11:

7 "As the week progressed Tracey started to tell

8 Michael and me more about what she had seen and it

9 appeared that a few more people got to know about what

10 happened."

11 "A few more people got to know about what happened";

12 what did you mean by that phrase?

13 A. I was just aware that people knew there was an incident

14 in the town, and it seemed to be a topic of discussion

15 between people.

16 Q. Are you relaying to the Inquiry that in fact it had

17 become gossip in the town what, apparently, had happened

18 on the night, is that right?

19 A. It's part what Tracey had said and part of what was the

20 talk.

21 Q. But the one thing is clear, Ms McKee, when she spoke to

22 you on 27 April, she did not give you any detail, isn't

23 that right; and it seemed to be as the week progressed

24 and it became gossip within the town, she was able to

25 give you any detail of what she said happened?

176

1 A. She had seen fighting and she was sitting on the floor

2 outside the shop, that's what I can recall she said.

3 Q. But isn't that right, as the week progressed and the

4 issue of the beating that Mr Hamill took in Portadown

5 was more of an issue and being more discussed within the

6 town, it was only at a later stage in the week that she

7 came to you with any details about what she says

8 happened on that night?

9 A. I can't clearly remember now when -- on what days and

10 when she said what.

11 Q. I am not asking you to be as specific as that because

12 paragraph 11 tells us:

13 "As the week progressed Tracey started to tell

14 Michael and me more about what she had seen and it

15 appeared that a few more people got to know about what

16 happened. She was able to recall a whole load of names

17 that she knew had been fighting and this included

18 Allister Hanvey. I didn't know the names of the other

19 lads she was talking about."

20 It was later in the week she started and did tell

21 you any names, apart from Allister Hanvey?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. There's no reason why she couldn't have told you that

24 information on the morning of Sunday, 27 April; isn't

25 that right?

177

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But she didn't?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did she seem keen when she told you that, and was she

5 again excited about the news?

6 A. I wouldn't say "excited" was the right word. She was

7 just -- she was -- she had so much to say, and that was

8 making her excited. But I don't think she was actually

9 excited about what she had seen, about the fighting.

10 Q. Did you get the impression, Mrs McKee, at all, that the

11 information that she was then able to give you

12 throughout the week was sourced from other people?

13 A. I can't answer that accurately now, I am sorry.

14 Q. Her relationship with Allister Hanvey, you were aware

15 of, was a difficult one; isn't that right?

16 A. You could never keep track on whether they were together

17 or not.

18 Q. And it's clear that at the time this event happened, on

19 27 April 1997, they were not then in that relationship;

20 isn't that right?

21 A. That's my understanding, yes.

22 Q. Would she confide in you whenever her relationship went

23 sour with Mr Hanvey?

24 A. Well, they would be fighting and arguing one minute, and

25 then they would be driving off together the next.

178

1 Q. We know that, Ms McKee, but would she confide in you

2 whenever she would have these bust-ups with Mr Hanvey?

3 A. It just got that I would switch off to it, I think.

4 I can't accurately say if she confided in me or not.

5 Q. Would she go on about Mr Hanvey when she wasn't with him

6 in that she wasn't in a relationship?

7 A. If they weren't together, she would always be in

8 conflict with him, but then they would be back together

9 and she was in love with him again. So --

10 Q. When it is in an off condition, which is all I am

11 interested in, when it is in an off condition, would she

12 be spiteful about Allister Hanvey?

13 A. No, she would always be hoping when it would be on

14 again.

15 Q. But would she have good things to say about him?

16 A. Good and bad, I suppose.

17 Q. Would she be keen to highlight the bad?

18 A. Not really, no. She thought an awful lot of him.

19 Q. Did you get an impression from her when she would talk

20 to you about her relationship with Mr Hanvey that it was

21 he who was causing the difficulties in the relationship

22 or did she not discuss that with you?

23 A. No, she didn't discuss that with me, and they were as

24 bad as each other, in my opinion. She wouldn't say it

25 was him or her. They were just as bad as each other for

179

1 bickering.

2 Q. Knowing all that you know about Tracey Clarke now, do

3 you think it's possible that she has it within her to

4 make up allegations about people in the way that she

5 did, if my instructions are correct, about the

6 involvement of Mr Hobson and others in the fight in

7 Portadown centre on 27 April?

8 A. No, I don't think Tracey would have it in her to make

9 all that up. She was able to relay what she had seen,

10 but she didn't make it up.

11 Q. We don't know she had seen anything yet, but you don't

12 think she had it within her to do what she has now done,

13 isn't that right?

14 A. Yes. Well, I can understand why she has. She is in

15 a difficult situation and I am disappointed in what

16 she's done, but it is not a surprise.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not quite what she had said to you in

18 answer to your earlier questions. She said to you she

19 didn't think she had it in her to make up allegations,

20 but you added to that what she has now done.

21 MR GREEN: Indeed.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Your evidence is she didn't think that

23 Tracey Clarke had it in her to make up a story. That's

24 my phrase, but --

25 MR GREEN: Sir, you are right.

180

1 Ms McKee, your assessment of Tracey Clarke, I asked

2 you earlier, changed from what you would have thought of

3 her in 1997 to what it would be now; isn't that right?

4 A. I haven't known Tracey for a long, long time, so I can't

5 comment on her personally now, what she's like --

6 I don't know now what she's like.

7 MR GREEN: Thank you.

8 Examination by MR O'CONNOR

9 MR O'CONNOR: Sir, I have three short matters.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

11 MR O'CONNOR: Ms McKee, I appear for

12 Detective Inspector Irwin. Can I take you to document

13 number [21445] again, the letter. I just want to

14 confirm in relation to that letter, that letter was

15 never sent to Detective Inspector Irwin at any stage?

16 A. No, it wasn't, no.

17 Q. If you go to the body of it:

18 "Dear DCI Irwin, Following our recent conversation

19 ..."

20 Again, there was no conversation --

21 A. No, there wasn't.

22 Q. -- with DCI Irwin, isn't that right?

23 A. That is right.

24 Q. The second matter was you were asked about the meeting

25 in the car about DC McAteer and DI Irwin at the

181

1 Seagoe Cemetery. When you were asked -- I will just

2 read the transcript back to you again:

3 "Question: And you did that for security reasons or

4 something; is that correct? Were you anxious about

5 perhaps going to the police station?

6 "Answer: No, that was just where they arranged.

7 "Question: They arranged it?

8 "Answer: Yes.

9 "Question: It wasn't because of your concern?"

10 And your answer was "no".

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Do you understand that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you were in the car with these two police officers,

15 is it your evidence to the --

16 A. There was three. There was Davy and two others.

17 Q. When you were in the car, is it your evidence to the

18 Inquiry that you weren't worried about this, you weren't

19 one that worried?

20 A. I wasn't, no.

21 Q. You didn't have any concerns about what you were telling

22 these officers?

23 A. No, I was just supporting -- Davy had overheard Tracey,

24 and they were asking me how she was related to me and

25 was she Michael's niece, and I wasn't concerned, no.

182

1 Q. But the import of this was it was quite a serious

2 matter. You understand that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did it not occur to you at that early stage that what

5 you were saying could have serious repercussions?

6 A. I knew there would be consequences somewhere, yes.

7 Q. Were you not frightened that your co-operation with the

8 police would become known in the Parkmore estate?

9 A. That didn't cross my mind at that time.

10 Q. And you say at this stage you didn't have any concerns

11 about this at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I am suggesting to you that your demeanour in the car --

14 and Detective Inspector Irwin will say this -- was of

15 somebody who was extremely frightened, concerned for her

16 own safety, didn't want this to get out. Are those all

17 wrong?

18 A. I don't remember that I was frightened. I felt quite

19 comfortable. If I didn't feel comfortable, you know,

20 I wouldn't have gone to meet them.

21 Q. Was it fair to say that you wanted this information at

22 this stage to be kept secret?

23 A. I can't remember if I asked for that to be the case or

24 not.

25 Q. Is it possible that in fact you indicated through the

183

1 police that you would rather have a secret meeting, and

2 that's how it took place?

3 A. I can't remember. Just that's how it was arranged,

4 so...

5 Q. One final matter, at page [19988], at the bottom of the

6 page, the last four lines. I am just going to read out

7 this. This is your statement after the Crown Court

8 conviction in Craigavon on 7 May 2002, and you again

9 gave a statement to the police:

10 "Michael made his statement to the police and after

11 this, Robbie made an arrangement with his solicitor,

12 Sean Hagan for me to make a statement. I later made

13 a statement to the police with Robbie's solicitor."

14 That is correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, at this time -- just bear with me. Yes, at this

17 time your husband, Robert Atkinson and Eleanor Atkinson

18 had all already been in with the police at the police

19 station in Lurgan on 9 October. That was 20 days before

20 this. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were aware of that?

23 A. I thought it was Portadown Police Station they went to.

24 Q. Sorry, the evidence was given that it was Lurgan. They

25 were in the police station in any event?

184

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were aware that they had been to see the police?

3 A. Yes. I waited at home with Robbie's daughter.

4 Q. At that stage then, Reserve Constable Atkinson came back

5 and indicated to you at that stage then that he would

6 want you to make a statement as well; is that right?

7 A. To cover what they had said there, yes.

8 Q. And at that stage also were you aware that Mr Hagan was

9 at those interviews in the police station?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you were interviewed then in Mr Hagan's solicitor's

12 office, was there any reason for Detective Inspector

13 Irwin to think that Mr Hagan was not your solicitor?

14 A. I don't -- there would have been no reason for him --

15 well, I didn't have a solicitor. That was -- Robbie

16 was --

17 THE CHAIRMAN: But did anyone at that meeting say he was

18 your solicitor or did Mr Hagan say, "I'm your

19 solicitor"?

20 A. No.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Or did anyone say he was Mr Atkinson's

22 solicitor?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 MR O'CONNOR: Just finally, Mr Hagan in his statement, at

25 paragraph 7 of [80350], says that he was there during

185

1 the whole of that interview.

2 A. He wasn't there during the whole interview.

3 Q. And Detective Inspector Irwin has made a statement to

4 the same effect that Mr Hagan was there during the

5 interview?

6 A. He was there at the start and he was sorting some papers

7 and then he left, which surprised me because I thought,

8 you know, that was a bit strange, but he left, and then

9 he came back after a while.

10 Q. You have made that point in your Inquiry statement;

11 isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long do you say he left for?

14 A. I can't remember. Five minutes, maybe.

15 Q. Might it have been during the taking of the statement he

16 left and came back during the taking of the statement,

17 took a call, something simple?

18 A. Yes. He left and came back while it was going on.

19 There were periods of time he wasn't there.

20 Q. Yes, but he was there at the start of the statement and

21 he came back before the end of the statement being

22 taken?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

186

1 MR McGRORY: I wouldn't plan to be too long, sir, so I don't

2 know if --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we will finish this witness today.

4 I dare say you would like to get back to Wales, would

5 you?

6 A. Please, yes.

7 MR McGRORY: I'm obliged, sir.

8 Examination by MR McGRORY

9 MR McGRORY: Is it Ms [McKee] or Ms McKee?

10 A. McKee.

11 Q. I represent the Hamill family and I would like to ask

12 you a few questions, not too many, with the Chairman's

13 permission.

14 If I could have on the screen [81021], which should

15 be paragraphs 15 to 17.

16 Now, I think P29 is the name of the witness who made

17 this statement. This is the police woman, Mrs McKee,

18 with whom you were in contact immediately preceding the

19 anticipated court appearance on 22 December 2003.

20 Perhaps if we could just highlight paragraph 15. She

21 said she contacted you on Friday, 19 December 2003, when

22 she telephoned you on your mobile to take travel

23 arrangements for the court appearance on the Monday.

24 Now, at that point there didn't appear to be any

25 indication from you that your son was so ill that you

187

1 wouldn't be able to attend on the Monday. Do you recall

2 that?

3 A. Well, I knew that he obviously was unwell, but

4 I thought -- you know, I may be able to leave him with

5 my mum. But I wasn't happy then to do that, so...

6 Q. So at this stage, despite the medical history in recent

7 weeks, you were still willing to travel on the Monday,

8 even at this point?

9 A. If he hadn't have been so poorly, yes, I would have.

10 I attended in October and I had no problem to come back

11 to this, and, you know, on that occasion I couldn't

12 attend because he was unwell but, you know, I had no

13 problem with coming back on another date, if one had

14 have been set.

15 Q. The point I am making to you is that on Friday,

16 19 December, even though you were aware at that stage

17 that your son wasn't 100 per cent, that there had been

18 some illness in preceding weeks, you were still willing

19 to travel at the beginning of the following week, were

20 you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In fact even at that stage, on Friday, the 19th, of

23 course you have heard earlier from Mr Underwood, your

24 child's medical notes were shown to you, that as far

25 back as 27 November there had been a sore throat and

188

1 a visit to the doctor. You will recall seeing that this

2 morning.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that there's another entry that your notes here --

5 your son's notes, [74259] -- there's another entry there

6 on 17 December following that, "externally entered". Can

7 you explain that at all? It doesn't give us any detail.

8 A. I had my son at that many appointments to see doctors.

9 Q. Yes. Of course, we do know that on the 11th we have

10 seen the handwritten note of a doctor that there was

11 a home visit, query mumps, on 11 December, six days

12 earlier. Do you recall that?

13 A. Yes. I was unwell myself as well. So I had asked the

14 doctor to come out to the house instead of me having to

15 take him to the surgery.

16 Q. And despite that, you were still willing to attend on

17 the 22nd, as of the Friday, the 19th?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me to understand the

20 reference for 17 December: "externally entered",

21 "unspecified doctor". Now, does that mean a telephone

22 call, and if so --

23 MR UNDERWOOD: What that means is that they entered

24 a document that came from an external source, and if you

25 look at the date of that, it's underneath "D:*RA1

189

1 26.11.2003, 00H form". 26.11.2003 OOH is the

2 out-of-hours form. So we've seen from Pendine two

3 forms, one of which is dated 26 November 2003, and that

4 eventually got entered into the GP's records there, as

5 we see it, on 17 December 2003.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.

7 MR McGRORY: If I can have the previous page back up,

8 [81021], and highlight paragraph 17 this time, please.

9 Now, at this stage P29 is recounting in her

10 statement what it is you had told her in respect of the

11 reason why you felt unable to come to court on the 22nd,

12 and this is her account of what you told her when she

13 speaks to you on Sunday, the 21st. Do you recall the

14 conversation?

15 A. Not clearly. I was just relaying that he was unwell.

16 Q. Yes. She says you told her that your son had mumps and

17 orchitis. Certainly from the medical records that we

18 have seen, there was a query about mumps by this stage.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "She explained that her son's testicles were swollen and

21 there was concern that her son might fit because of his

22 high temperature."

23 We have seen some reference to say Calpol being

24 administered. Would you give Calpol because of

25 a concern over temperature?

190

1 A. Absolutely, yes.

2 Q. You explained that your child's illness had started two

3 weeks earlier with an ear infection, "... and she had

4 taken him to the doctor on two occasions and the doctor

5 had visited her home on one occasion". All of those are

6 borne out by the medical notes; isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were going to take your son to the doctor on Monday

9 morning, and of course you did that; isn't that correct?

10 A. I did, yes.

11 Q. Now, was this your first child, Mrs McKee?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I suppose it would be fair to say that, particularly

14 with a first child, when there is a series of illnesses

15 and something like mumps mentioned, that you would be

16 particularly concerned?

17 A. It's worrying, yes.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: How old was he?

19 A. At that time, 2.

20 MR McGRORY: And despite the recent history of illness on

21 the Friday, the 19th, having said you were prepared to

22 still go to court on the Friday, by the Sunday is it

23 a statement of the obvious that something had changed

24 your mind?

25 A. Well, I thought I might have been able to leave him with

191

1 my mum, but he got worse and I didn't think it was fair

2 to put that responsibility on to other people. So

3 I felt I had a duty as a mum to be there to look after

4 him.

5 Q. Yes. So is it your recollection that there was

6 a deterioration between the Friday and the Sunday in his

7 condition?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, if I could perhaps refer you to the telephone call

10 to your mobile on Monday, the 22nd. It's at [34025].

11 About halfway down, there is a reference to -- that's

12 very helpful, thank you.

13 There's a reference there to Armagh Police on

14 21 December. One can presume that that is an outgoing

15 call from you, attempting to inform the police that you

16 didn't want to come the following day. Can you

17 remember?

18 A. Yes, I made that call, yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you confirm what the two columns mean,

20 Mr Underwood?

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. That is our understanding.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: The first column is...?

23 MR UNDERWOOD: The first column is received; the second

24 column is outgoing.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

192

1 MR UNDERWOOD: We didn't compile this.

2 MR McGRORY: The next entry below that is a call which would

3 seem to be from a Strathmore Surgery. Now, this is at

4 10 o'clock in the morning. Can you recall whether or

5 not you had phoned Strathmore Surgery earlier that

6 morning to make an appointment?

7 A. As I recall, I would have had to have done that to get

8 in to see a GP. I would have had to have phoned.

9 Q. Might you have spoken to someone and left a number?

10 A. Possibly. They would have my number anyway. It's on

11 the system for...

12 Q. Strathmore Surgery is your main surgery, or was; isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Pendine is not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, during the out-of-hours period, I think you have

18 mentioned that when you make a call, it's redirected?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. And of course when someone answers the redirected call,

21 it's not a doctor who answers?

22 A. No. No, it's a receptionist, as I know.

23 Q. And that person asks you what the problem is, and at

24 that point in a night time situation, does the person

25 who answers the out-of-hours call take a number to ring

193

1 you back?

2 A. If they were to going to ring you back with further

3 advice or -- they would have your number obviously, so

4 that they could do that.

5 Q. Yes. Well, I think if I could have page [33991], and

6 that would go on to [33992], please, if we could split

7 the screen.

8 At the very bottom of page [33991] -- now, let me

9 tell you what this document is. This is a record that

10 you have been referred to already of the meeting that

11 you had on 9 January with a number of people, including

12 two representatives of the DPP, in January 2004. Do you

13 recollect the meeting?

14 A. Not clearly, no.

15 Q. At the bottom of the page, the very final paragraph:

16 "I phone surgery and I go direct to late night

17 surgery -- bounces on -- automatically redirected to

18 Pendine Park Nursing Home/Doctor's surgery. Phoned

19 quite late -- after 11 pm. [Blank] spoke to someone. Told

20 to give him Calpol and they would phone back after

21 an hour to see how he was."

22 So do you agree, that would suggest that you gave

23 them a number?

24 A. Yes, I would have to have done for them to ring me back.

25 Q. Yes. Might that have been your mobile number?

194

1 A. Yes, possibly.

2 Q. It's your evidence, of course, though that you went

3 anyway into Pendine?

4 A. I took him to Pendine, yes.

5 MR EMMERSON: The evidence, as I understood it, was that

6 there had been phone calls back to the number, and

7 that's what's recorded in the document.

8 MR McGRORY: Yes, but I think those might have been landline

9 records. My simple point to the witness is that she may

10 have left a mobile number with an out-of-hours medical

11 clinic which may have been passed on to Strathmore or

12 may not have been. That's my simple question.

13 A. It is a possibility, yes. I can't recall what number

14 I gave.

15 Q. Just since we are on that consultation with the DPP on

16 9 January, if I could move to page [33996] of the record

17 of that meeting, please, if the bottom paragraph,

18 starting "pointed out by Christine Smith" could be

19 highlighted.

20 Now, do you see in that paragraph, beginning:

21 "Pointed out by Christine Smith that the Andrea's

22 commitment to give evidence was not binding,

23 particularly in light of change in circumstances, the

24 letter, the fact that her evidence and cross-examination

25 at committal stage was likely to last about three days,

195

1 rather than the one day initially anticipated..."

2 Now, this meeting was on 9 January 2004. That would

3 suggest that when it was suggested that you come over

4 and give evidence on 22 December, nobody thought it

5 would last any longer than one day?

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. Just on that paragraph, it's pointed out to you at this

8 consultation that your evidence -- your commitment isn't

9 binding, particularly in view of the letter, that it

10 might take longer than you had initially thought, that

11 they couldn't give you any guarantees that the hearings

12 would convenience you, and that they really needed to

13 know your attitude. Now, can you remember this

14 discussion?

15 A. Not clearly, no.

16 Q. You can't remember what impression you had as to whether

17 or not you were particularly wanting to come and give

18 evidence?

19 A. I had made it clear that I was willing and committed to

20 come, as I have done and come today. There's no -- at

21 any time did I, you know, say that I wouldn't come. It

22 was just that when my son was unwell, I couldn't. If he

23 hadn't have been unwell, then I would have attended.

24 There is no doubt about that.

25 Q. And at no time during that discussion did you rule out

196

1 coming back at another convenient date?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Indeed, if I could cross over the page [33997] --

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before we do, could we have explained

5 the last line:

6 "If still living where I'm living I couldn't give

7 evidence."

8 MR McGRORY: Yes, I was hoping to do that in the context of

9 the next page.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

11 MR McGRORY: "Would relocate to another house, somewhere

12 close with protection measures."

13 Now, we have already heard some talk about a letter

14 that you had received?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that you received a letter -- let's put it

17 this way -- suggesting that you should not come and give

18 evidence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you regard that letter as threatening?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did that letter give you concern for your safety if

23 you were to give evidence?

24 A. Of course, yes.

25 Q. And is it the correct interpretation of this exchange

197

1 that you were saying, "Despite that I'm still willing to

2 come and give evidence, but I need you to relocate me"?

3 A. I made it clear that I was still willing to come and

4 give evidence. It wasn't convenient for me to be

5 relocated because where I was living, you know, it was

6 perfect for me and it was an inconvenience for me to be

7 relocated.

8 Q. But if you were given an alternative address in the same

9 area, would that have satisfied you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In fact, the note suggests in the middle paragraph:

12 "Giving evidence is not a problem, but being safe

13 is."

14 Is that a correct interpretation of your --

15 A. Of course, yes.

16 Q. -- feeling at the time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Yes, thank you on that point.

19 I just want to ask you, Mrs McKee, about

20 Allister Hanvey, if you don't mind?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, Mr Hanvey, you got to know him when really he was

23 quite young?

24 A. Around 13, I believe.

25 Q. And I believe he was quite a star in the Tae Kwon Do

198

1 world?

2 A. He was, yes.

3 Q. It would be fair to say that you were very much involved

4 in that sporting world?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That being how your husband made his living?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But by the age of 16 or 17, you have said previously

9 that Mr Hanvey's interest in Tae Kwon Do began to wane?

10 A. It did, yes.

11 Q. And that he got into other things?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the interests of clarity, you said that in the

14 interview with the Inquiry in 2006 at the top of page 12

15 of that interview, but I don't think we need to go into

16 that. What other things did he get into?

17 A. Just he was doing what any typical teenage lad did. He

18 was going out and enjoying himself, drinking, and then

19 that affected his fitness and then he wasn't committed

20 to turning up to train and his interest just moved away.

21 Q. We heard a little bit of evidence yesterday about the

22 style of clothing that was worn by people who go to

23 raves, ravewear. Would you know anything about that

24 scene?

25 A. Not really, no.

199

1 Q. In respect of how he conducted himself at that time,

2 once he is beginning to go drinking and lose his fitness

3 and take less of an interest in the sport, would he have

4 developed a reputation for putting himself about as

5 somebody who would have used his perhaps Tae Kwon Do

6 skills in a fight?

7 A. He always had a reputation that he wasn't to be messed

8 with because he could -- he was a good fighter.

9 Q. In fact, when he was at the top of his game, he would

10 have fought against men a lot older than him; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. He was fighting in a weight category, and even though he

13 was young, he was able to compete against men of the

14 same weight.

15 Q. You do make a reference in that interview to him being

16 involved in the odd scuffle. Are you aware of any

17 particular incident?

18 A. Just -- I was just aware that he had a reputation, that,

19 you know, he could fight and as young lads he would have

20 scuffles. But I couldn't give anything specific.

21 Q. Yes, I think when asked by Mr Stephens in that

22 interview, if Mr Hanvey used his Tae Kwon Do on the

23 streets as well, you said:

24 "Probably so."

25 A. Yes, he would -- it was the way he was trained. So it

200

1 would be a natural instinct for him to fight.

2 Q. Just one last question I want to ask you, Mrs McKee. We

3 heard evidence from a prison officer called Mr Leatham

4 a few days ago, maybe a week ago. Do you remember

5 Mr Leatham?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He himself had a daughter who was involved in the

8 Tae Kwon Do.

9 A. A son.

10 Q. A son, sorry. Thank you. He said he distanced himself

11 from the Tae Kwon Do club. Do you remember that?

12 A. He stopped attending, but...

13 Q. Well, I think just I need to suggest to you, or let you

14 know what the reason he gave for that distancing was,

15 and that was that he said there was a reputation that

16 those around the club were becoming involved in drugs.

17 Is this the first you have heard of that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if that was the case, would you have had anything to

20 do with the club?

21 A. I don't agree to drugs, but anybody taking drugs, it

22 wouldn't have been tolerated, you know, in the club.

23 It's just not something that would have been accepted.

24 Q. But, of course, in terms of what the various members of

25 the club might do outside of their club activities?

201

1 A. That's up to them, what they do.

2 Q. Of course, and you have not necessarily any knowledge or

3 control over that?

4 A. No.

5 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions, sir.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Berry.

7 Examination by MR BERRY

8 MR BERRY: If everyone else has finished?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think so.

10 MR BERRY: Ms McKee, you will be pleased to hear I will be

11 brief. I think everyone else will as well.

12 Can I ask you, when you attended on 27 October 2003,

13 that was for a Magistrates' Court hearing; isn't that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I take it you understood that you were part of

17 a process called a mixed committal, where the accused

18 persons could ask for witnesses to come and give

19 evidence in the Magistrates' Court?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the magistrate would then, if the committal took its

22 normal course, be asked to determine whether or not

23 a prima facie case existed for the accused to be

24 returned to trial to the Crown Court?

25 A. Yes.

202

1 Q. And I take it you were aware that if the committal

2 proceedings, if that hurdle were passed, as it were,

3 that you would be required to give evidence in the Crown

4 Court as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the last contact you appear to have with the office

7 of the DPP, the last substantial contact, is the

8 consultation with Mr Simpson that Mr Emmerson has

9 referred you to on 2 March 2004. Isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can I ask, was it your state of mind at that stage,

12 and indeed after that stage, that you were willing to

13 give evidence at both the committal and, if required, at

14 the Crown Court, should the case proceed to the Crown

15 Court?

16 A. That's correct. As I am here today to assist this

17 Inquiry, I was happy to assist then also.

18 MR BERRY: Thank you very much.

19 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD

20 MR UNDERWOOD: One matter arising. Could we see page

21 [33965], please, and can I highlight the first half of

22 the text?

23 This is a note of a consultation which you had with

24 Mr Simpson QC. What I want to put to you is the second

25 paragraph and the third one. I should start at the

203

1 stop:

2 "Mr Simpson introduced himself to Andrea and

3 informed her he was senior counsel in the case. Went on

4 to discuss the issue of Andrea saying she visited

5 Pendine surgery out-of-hours and the fact that none of

6 the doctors or receptionists can remember her visit.

7 Also telephone records cannot confirm that calls were

8 made.

9 "Mr Simpson asked Andrea did she know why this could

10 be.

11 "Andrea said that she told H [who is a police

12 officer] already that she might have used a mobile that

13 she has since given to her niece.

14 "Mr Simpson stated that this might account for

15 a telephone call but not for the fact that there is no

16 record of Andrea being at Pendine."

17 Did you give that explanation about a possible extra

18 telephone?

19 A. I can't remember now.

20 Q. Were you ever asked for the number of that telephone?

21 A. I was asked for lots of numbers and lots of things.

22 Q. But do you remember the DPP -- we have no record, you

23 see. We have asked the DPP and we have asked the PSNI,

24 and we have no answer to whether you were asked for the

25 record of that. Do you know whether you were?

204

1 A. Well, I had a mobile, my partner had a mobile, and I was

2 just ask for all my records which I -- I can't answer

3 that now accurately.

4 Q. Do you recall the telephone number now?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you have any records that might allow us to establish

7 what the numbers were of the various mobiles?

8 A. I may have at home somewhere, but I couldn't say for

9 sure.

10 Q. When you go home, when we eventually let you go, will

11 you search to see if you have any records that might

12 show any mobile numbers for us?

13 A. I can ask my partner if he has anything left.

14 Q. When you say there that the mobile you have since given

15 to your niece, which niece were you referring to there?

16 A. My sister's daughter.

17 Q. Right. Thank you very much.

18 Unless there is anything else arising out of that...

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Emmerson.

20 MR EMMERSON: I wonder if the witness might be asked to

21 check with the niece concerned whether the mobile is

22 still available or, if not available, whether or not

23 records from the niece's use of the mobile are

24 available.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you do that?

205

1 A. If you want me to do that, yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

3 Then tomorrow morning, is it 10.00 or 10.30?

4 MR UNDERWOOD: 10.30, I'm being told.

5 Thank you very much indeed, Mrs McKee.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

7 A. Thank you.

8 (4.45 pm)

9 (The hearing adjourned until Thursday, 12 February 2009 at

10 10.30 am)

206

1 INDEX

2 PAGE

3 MS JOY KITCHEN (affirmed) ........................ 1

5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1

7 Examination by MR MALLON .................. 4

9 MR RODNEY SMYTH (affirmed) ....................... 5

11 Examination by Mr UNDERWOOD ............... 5

13 Examination by MR MALLON .................. 10

15 Examination by MR BERRY ................... 15

17 Questions from THE PANEL .................. 15

19 MS CATHERINE JAGGER (sworn) ...................... 18

21 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 18

23 Examination by MR ADAIR ................... 27

25 Examination by MR MALLON .................. 28

207

2 Examination by MR BERRY ................... 33

4 MRS ANDREA MCKEE (affirmed) ...................... 41

6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 41

8 Examination by MR FERGUSON ................ 88

10 Examination by MR ADAIR ................... 90

12 Examination by MR McCOMB .................. 97

14 Examination by MRS DINSMORE ............... 112

16 Examination by MR EMMERSON ................ 140

18 Examination by MR GREEN ................... 168

20 Examination by MR O'CONNOR ................ 181

22 Examination by MR McGRORY ................. 187

24 Examination by MR BERRY ................... 202

208

1 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 203

209

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 11th February 2009, day 14