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Hearing: 11th May 2009, day 47

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Monday, 11th May 2009

commencing at 10.00 am

Day 47

1 Monday, 11 May 2009

2 (10.00 am)

3 MR UNDERWOOD: May I call Eleanor Atkinson, please?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

5 MRS ELEANOR ATKINSON (sworn)

6 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mrs Atkinson.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. My name is Underwood I have got some questions for you.

10 Can I ask your full names, please?

11 A. Eleanor Jean Atkinson.

12 Q. Can I ask you to look at two documents? First of all,

13 page [80032]. Can I just ask you to keep your eye on

14 the screen while we run through four pages of this quite

15 quickly?

16 SIR JOHN EVANS: We have no screens.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's see if this can be done within a minute

18 or two. (Pause)

19 I do apologise.

20 That's a statement that was drafted for you by the

21 Inquiry, Mrs Atkinson. Is that right?

22 A. No, by myself.

23 Q. No, the one we have just looked at.

24 A. Oh, yes.

25 Q. But you have come up with a separate one. Is that

1 correct? If we look at page [81495], is that the one

2 you have actually signed? Again, we can scroll through

3 the pages of it. Is that your --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- actual signed statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You say the contents of that are true, do you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Can we start by looking at a statement you

10 made to the police in 1997, which we find at

11 page [09195]. This, we see, is dated 9 October 1997,

12 and have you seen it recently?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was what you told the police in that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All of it?

17 A. All of it, yes.

18 Q. And you stand by every word of that, do you?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. I want to ask you some general questions. I think you

21 worked with Kenneth Hanvey, did you --

22 A. I did, yes.

23 Q. Physically how close were your working positions?

24 A. We were colleagues, we worked in different offices but

25 the nature of the work, I would have probably been

1 speaking to him about twice a week.

2 Q. And I think you knew Allister Hanvey through the TKD

3 club, did you?

4 A. I did, yes.

5 Q. When your husband came home at about 8 o'clock -- in

6 fact, let's take this in two stages. He came home

7 twice, I think, in the early hours of 27 April; is that

8 right?

9 A. He did, yes.

10 Q. About 4 o'clock and about 8 o'clock?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On either of those occasions did he tell you he had seen

13 Allister Hanvey at the scene?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you know Tracey Clarke?

16 A. I did, through the Tae Kwon Do.

17 Q. Did you know that it was an on/off relationship that she

18 had with Allister Hanvey?

19 A. I did, yes.

20 Q. Did you know that they had the use of a room at the

21 McKees' house?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Had you any reason to believe that Tracey Clarke would

24 spend the night with Allister Hanvey at any stage at his

25 parents'?

1 A. Well, I really didn't know what the set-up was with

2 Allister and Tracey.

3 Q. Because what you are telling us in your statements is

4 that when the McKees got to find out that there had been

5 trouble in the town that they rang looking for Tracey at

6 the Hanvey house. That's right, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And they only made one phone call?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that was unsuccessful because she wasn't there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you explain why they rang there?

13 A. Well, they asked why Robert hadn't showed up at the set

14 time -- usually it would have been 11 o'clock -- and

15 I said that there was trouble with the Coach bus.

16 That's all I knew about what had happened.

17 Q. But what I'm asking you about is this: you say the

18 McKees are at your house, they learn that there might be

19 trouble and they might be concerned about Tracey, and

20 the one place they ring to try and find Tracey is the

21 Hanvey house?

22 A. Well, at that particular time I think they were engaged

23 but wouldn't be sure. And Tracey and Michael were quite

24 close so he mentioned that she might be with him. So he

25 asked could he make a call.

1 Q. Hmm-mm. And having not found her then, they didn't

2 bother making any more calls. Is that right?

3 A. No, they had to go to the gym after that.

4 Q. Did you say a moment ago that the McKees asked why

5 Robbie wasn't home at 11?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He would have been home after 12, wouldn't he, on

8 a normal shift?

9 A. He would have been, yes.

10 Q. Not 11?

11 A. I don't know if it was three to 11 or three to 12. I'm

12 just not sure.

13 Q. All right. You know, don't you, that Michael McKee went

14 to prison and Andrea McKee got a suspended prison

15 sentence. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you know that they got those sentences because in

18 2000 they admitted to the police that the statements

19 they had made about them making this phone call were

20 false. Do you know that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Can you give us any explanation why they would make

23 admissions like that to the police and end up with those

24 prison sentences if that wasn't true?

25 A. I don't know. I really couldn't see into their minds.

1 I don't know why they would say that.

2 Q. But you were quite close to them, weren't you?

3 A. We were.

4 Q. You appreciate that the job of the Panel here is to try

5 to get to the truth and you understand, do you, that

6 what the Panel is faced with is a couple that went to

7 the police or were arrested by the police and admitted

8 serious criminal offences and these people you knew

9 quite well? Can you help the Panel at all about why

10 they might have done that?

11 A. I don't know. I really do not know.

12 Q. We also have reason to believe that when this telephone

13 call was made, or the night of the telephone call,

14 26/27 April, that a couple, Rodney Smyth and

15 Joy Kitchen, were at the McKees' house and they were

16 picked up by taxi from there. Do you know those two?

17 A. I just know them through the Tae Kwon Do club.

18 Q. And they have told us that they never went round to the

19 McKees' house unless the McKees were there. Have you

20 any reason to disbelieve that?

21 A. I don't know when they went to the McKees' house.

22 Q. You see, Andrea McKee has already given evidence here

23 and what she told the Panel in very broad terms was that

24 they were at home that night, that this telephone call

25 was not theirs and that it was later, somewhere

1 between September and October 1997, that your husband

2 asked Michael to make a false statement for him and that

3 you all had a meeting about that.

4 Now, I know that's a fair amount to digest, but I

5 think you understand already, don't you, what sort of

6 evidence Andrea McKee has given about this because you

7 have seen her statement; is that right?

8 Now, what do you say about that?

9 A. I can only tell you that Andrea and Michael stayed at my

10 house and I don't know why she would tell lies. I think

11 she is the liar.

12 Q. You see, she gave quite a bit of detail about this and,

13 for example, she said that Michael and she came round to

14 your house to discuss making false statements and you

15 were very upset. You were very upset with your husband

16 because you realised that he had gone out, put his neck

17 out for the Hanvey family. What do you say about that?

18 A. Well, I can't comment because I disagree.

19 Q. And she said in essence you were saying, "Robbie, why on

20 earth did you do that for them? That's not the sort of

21 thing they would do for you." Did you have any

22 conversation about that?

23 A. No meeting took place and there was no conversation of

24 that nature.

25 Q. You see, we know that the police knew about the

1 telephone call made at about half past eight or so on

2 the 27 May onwards, May of 1997, but that you didn't

3 actually ask your husband about it until September. We

4 know that. On 9 September he was called in for

5 interview and for the first time it was revealed to him

6 that police thought he had made, or might have made,

7 a phone call to the Hanveys. And he went off sick the

8 next day and never went back to work. Do you recollect

9 that?

10 A. I can't remember him going sick.

11 Q. Do you remember the point at which he ceased to be

12 a policeman?

13 A. I can't recall the exact date.

14 Q. No, I'm not asking you for the exact date. What I'm

15 putting to you is this: in fact, when it was revealed to

16 him that the police knew about this, that's it, he

17 ceased to be a policeman and went off sick and never

18 went back. What I'm asking you about is was this

19 a significant event?

20 A. Well, he has had a heart complaint, so I don't know if

21 it was that. I don't know what he went off sick with

22 but I know he has had heart condition.

23 Q. All right. What I want to know about for the Panel is

24 how serious an event this was. When he came back and

25 told you the police are putting a phone call to him and

1 suggesting this he made a phone call tipping off the

2 Hanveys, how did it come out? What sort of conversation

3 did you have?

4 A. He just asked about the phone call and I knew that

5 Michael and Andrea had stayed at my house and had rang

6 enquiring about Tracey.

7 Q. You see, I know it is a long time ago, but you have just

8 told me you couldn't remember the date when your husband

9 ceased to be a policeman, but it is your evidence, is

10 it, that when he came out of the blue in September 1997

11 you could remember a specific phone call in April 1997

12 and who made it?

13 A. Well, I asked my daughter because she was at home that

14 night.

15 Q. How old was she?

16 A. She was, I think, 11 at the time.

17 Q. Was she awake during any of this?

18 A. No, she was in bed.

19 Q. Right. So how would that help?

20 A. But she knew they stayed at my house that particular

21 night.

22 Q. What I'm interested in is this: somebody comes and asks

23 you about a phone call that was made five months before.

24 Most people wouldn't remember it and I'm wondering how

25 it is that you did.

1 A. I just remembered. I just remembered the particular

2 night that Robert had worked late or didn't come home

3 till the early hours.

4 Q. That was very rare, was it?

5 A. It wasn't in his duty, no.

6 Q. And then there is this further complication, isn't

7 there, because on your evidence there is no problem

8 because he didn't make any bad phone call, somebody else

9 did. Now, why do you need then to have everybody give

10 statements to the police about this? Why couldn't he

11 just go back and say, "I didn't make the phone call. My

12 wife says somebody else did"?

13 A. Well, I was asked to go and make a statement.

14 Q. Who asked you?

15 A. I think it was the detective.

16 Q. It was a policeman, was it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Right. And you are saying, are you, that there was no

19 discussion with the McKees about that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Sorry, that was my fault. It was a silly question.

22 Because "no" could mean no, there was no discussion or,

23 no, you are not saying it. Was there a discussion with

24 the McKees?

25 A. No discussion.

1 Q. So as far as you were concerned, the McKees were

2 contacted by the police, out of the blue with no warning

3 from you or from your husband, to be asked about

4 a telephone call made five months before. Is that

5 right?

6 A. I think it was done through my solicitor.

7 Q. Why?

8 A. Pardon?

9 Q. Why? Why was it done through your solicitor?

10 A. He asked would I go to Lurgan to make a statement

11 regarding the call.

12 Q. Your solicitor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That's what --

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that mean to Lurgan police station, do

16 you mean?

17 A. Lurgan, yes.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

19 MR UNDERWOOD: So it wasn't the police, it was your

20 solicitor that you asked; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I ask again: why all this fuss? If this is an

23 innocent phone call and, as far as your husband is

24 concerned, the answer is he didn't make it, somebody

25 else did, why was that the subject then of people giving

1 all these witness statements?

2 A. Well, I don't know why. I went and gave my statement

3 and if anybody else went, I wasn't aware of it at the

4 time.

5 Q. Right. There is one other matter I want to ask you

6 about and that's this. On 5 December 2000,

7 Michael McKee got a bullet through the post with a note

8 in essence saying 'keep your mouth shut', and what he told

9 the police that he did was that he then went to a phone

10 box and from that public phone box rang up your husband

11 and asked him why he had got the bullet. And what he

12 told the police is that you answered the phone and you

13 put the phone down on him.

14 Now, the police then did a check of the public phone

15 boxes in the street where Mr McKee lived, and there was

16 indeed a call on 5 December 2000 from that public phone

17 box to your house. Did you receive that call?

18 A. I did receive a call from Mr McKee and he was drunk.

19 Q. Hm-mm.

20 A. And I really couldn't understand what he was saying, but

21 there was no mention of a bullet and I just told him I

22 didn't want to talk to him and set the phone down.

23 Q. What was your relationship with the McKees by then?

24 A. We were quite friendly through the Tae Kwon Do club. My

25 daughter was a member of the club.

1 Q. Still in December 2000? Because by that stage it had

2 all broken up and Andrea McKee had gone back to North

3 Wales?

4 A. At that stage the club had broken up. I didn't see

5 either Mr or Mrs McKee from -- he took off with one of

6 his students' mothers and Andrea tried to continue with

7 the club. My daughter would have tried to help, but she

8 told the club that she was going back to Wales, she

9 would be back to open the club again, she collected £30

10 off every student and never come back to Northern

11 Ireland.

12 Q. Hm-mm.

13 A. To the best of my knowledge, I didn't know that she was

14 ever back.

15 Q. I wasn't asking you whether she was still running it.

16 I'm asking you whether you took that phone call. Why do

17 you feel the need to tell us about her stealing money?

18 A. She promised the club she would be back to, you know,

19 take over the club and run it herself but that never

20 happened.

21 Q. So when Mr McKee told the police that on the day he

22 received the bullet, he was very upset and he rang your

23 husband and got you and you put the phone down, you

24 accept that he did ring you and he was very upset; would

25 that be fair?

1 A. He was drunk.

2 Q. Can you give any reason why, when Michael McKee got

3 a bullet in the post telling him to keep his mouth shut,

4 he would rung your husband and ask him why he got it?

5 A. I don't know. I can't speak for Mr McKee.

6 Q. Could it be because there was a conspiracy in 1997 to

7 cover up the fact that a phone call was made from your

8 house by you or your husband?

9 A. Mr and Mrs McKee stayed at my house. I had absolutely

10 nothing to do with the phone call. They made the phone

11 call and I'm telling the truth.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. As I say, other people may have

13 some questions for you.

14 MR WOLFE: I have no questions, sir.

15 Questions from MR ADAIR

16 MR ADAIR: I have just one thing I want to say to you,

17 Mrs Atkinson. I have no specific questions for you, but

18 I just want to make it absolutely clear to you and those

19 whom I represent: do you not accept that the evidence is

20 overwhelming in this case that that call was made by you

21 or your husband rather than the McKees? Do you not even

22 see that yourself?

23 A. I don't. I see that -- I'm telling the truth. Mr McKee

24 made the phone call from my house and that's all I can

25 tell you.

1 MR ADAIR: All right.

2 Questions from MR McGRORY

3 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, Mrs Atkinson, my name is McGrory

4 and I represent the family of Robert Hamill.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I want to just take you back to that night in

7 question that the McKees arrived. Were you expecting

8 them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No. This was completely unannounced?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And of course your husband was at work?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yes. And so they arrived at the door, they were

15 expecting to go out for the night. Is that right?

16 A. Yes. Well, they had their drink with them, so -- my

17 husband wasn't there, so we wouldn't go out.

18 Q. So they were really expecting a night's hospitality at

19 your house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's why they came?

22 A. Well, I don't know but they came with their own drink.

23 Q. What time was that again?

24 A. It was probably be between eight and nine.

25 Q. Between eight and nine?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And xxxxxxxxxx, your 11-year-old, she would still have

3 been up at that time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where did she go when you brought the McKees in?

6 A. She would have sat in the living room for a while and

7 then she would have gone to bed.

8 Q. So she sat in amongst the adults for a while?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you expecting your husband to come home at any time

11 then?

12 A. Well, his duty will have been either three to 11 or

13 three to 12, I'm not quite sure, so I would have been

14 expecting him home either 11 or 12.

15 Q. So really, the McKees also came expecting to see your

16 husband?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So had he not told them he wouldn't be there?

19 A. They came unannounced.

20 Q. So they didn't know whether he was working or not?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did this happen often, they just arrived unannounced

23 with their bag of drink?

24 A. My daughter was at the Tae Kwon Do. She would have came

25 down three or four nights a week. Sometimes they would

1 see have brought her home from the club.

2 Q. Three or four nights a week?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How often then did they stay over?

5 A. They had stayed before, but during the Drumcree troubles

6 I had quite a bit of bother at my house. So with my

7 husband working at the time, Mr and Mrs McKee would have

8 stayed for about a month. They had stayed quite a lot

9 at my house.

10 Q. Did they indeed?

11 A. Yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: While the Drumcree troubles were on?

13 A. Yes. I had quite a bit of bother at the house.

14 I actually got -- somebody shot at the window. It was

15 actually Loyalists.

16 MR McGRORY: Now, just in terms of the arrangements -- so

17 they arrive unannounced -- this is something they did

18 maybe two or three times a week.

19 A. They didn't bring drink two or three times a week.

20 Michael was usually drunk before he got to my house.

21 Q. Two or three times a week?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, this is a relationship that was really driven by

24 your husband's friendship with Michael McKee. Is that

25 right?

1 A. It was actually driven by the fact that my daughter went

2 to Tae Kwon Do and that's how we got to know them

3 because she did start at four right up to about 14.

4 Q. What, are you saying that your husband wasn't

5 particularly friendly with Michael McKee then?

6 A. Well, at the beginning I would have brought my daughter

7 to the classes, and because of her age I would have

8 stayed with her. She was only four, so I would have

9 stayed with her.

10 Q. You see, we have evidence from Andrea McKee that in fact

11 there was quite a close friendship had built up between

12 your husband and Michael McKee. Isn't that the case?

13 A. Well, we were both friendly with Michael and

14 Andrea McKee.

15 Q. In fact, your husband was secretary to the club?

16 A. It was a recreation club and he was secretary, yes.

17 Q. And in fact, there was a suggestion that it was through

18 your husband that the premises at the Brownstown Centre

19 was secured?

20 A. No. Michael and Andrea told us they had got the

21 premises on the Brownstown. That's the first time we

22 heard that they were moving to Brownstown was from

23 Andrea and Michael.

24 Q. So you don't accept the evidence from Andrea McKee that

25 in fact her recollection was that it was your husband's

1 relationship with Bobby Jameson that was the connection

2 in securing that premises?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You don't accept that at all?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And in terms of this friendship, Mrs Atkinson, can

7 I take it that you weren't particularly fond of these

8 people?

9 A. Well, I got on quite well with them, yes.

10 Q. Michael McKee is somebody who arrives around at your

11 house frequently drunk?

12 A. Well, Michael could have drank from morning and at

13 7 o'clock he was reasonably sober, you know. He just

14 sort of drank himself from sober to drunk, back to

15 sober.

16 Q. But you don't take a drink yourself, so you don't?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yet these people arrive round at your house two/three

19 times a week, sometimes with bags of drink, sometimes

20 Michael already drunk, and this is something that you

21 put up with?

22 A. Well, if someone comes to your house -- you know, my

23 house is an open house. I don't turn anybody away.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just go back to the time of Drumcree

25 troubles. That would be in 1996?

1 A. Yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: They spent about a month at your home to help

3 you because of the threats you felt under?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: At that time, had you been asked, "How do you

6 get on with the McKees?" What would you have said?

7 A. I got on quite well with them, yes.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have gone further and said they

9 were very kind to you?

10 A. They were kind, yes.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

12 MR McGRORY: Just going back to the issue of the frequency

13 with which the McKees stayed at your house, how many

14 times in total would that have been by this time?

15 A. They had stayed a few times, but during the Drumcree

16 they would have stayed probably a month.

17 Q. A whole month?

18 A. Not Monday to Monday, but they would see have stayed

19 probably four nights, five maybe, with me, all depending

20 on what me and my husband worked.

21 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by this Inquiry about

22 all of this, maybe two years ago?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could I have your statement up, please? You are

25 interviewed on 16 June 2006 at page 39 of your

1 statement -- transcript, my apologies. Page 39 of your

2 transcript. Mr Pinfield interviewed you about all of

3 this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It says at the top of the page:

6 "Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself. The McKees

7 stayed at your house that Saturday night?

8 "Answer: Yes.

9 "Question: Was it a usual event for the McKees to

10 stay at your house?

11 "Answer: I think that might have been the second

12 occasion."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mrs Atkinson. The second occasion on which they had

15 stayed at your house. Now, that's quite different to

16 what you have just told us.

17 A. Well, at the Drumcree time they didn't actually go to

18 bed. They sat in my living room because I have had my

19 windows broken, shots at my house, so we sat in the

20 living room. I might have went to bed, my daughter

21 might have went. But she had to go to school so she had

22 to go to bed. So I would have had a few hours' sleep

23 and maybe they would have had a few hours' sleep. But

24 they did stay for a month, maybe more, quite a lot with

25 me.

1 Q. That's a lie, Mrs Atkinson, you have just made it up.

2 Isn't that correct?

3 A. I have made nothing up. They stayed at my house. My

4 daughter was afraid, so Michael and Andrea said they

5 would stay and if I needed any messages -- they were

6 very kind to me.

7 Q. You see, when you were interviewed by Mr Pinfield on

8 behalf of this Inquiry in 2006, you never mentioned them

9 staying for a month.

10 A. Well, I must have forgot at the time but they did stay

11 with me for a month, maybe more.

12 Q. Of course, you were also interviewed in 2001 by the

13 police. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I suggest to you you didn't mention it then either, that

16 they stayed for a month?

17 A. I tried to block the Drumcree out of my head. I really

18 didn't want to go back to that.

19 Q. When you spoke to this Inquiry in 2006, you were putting

20 a different spin on this. You were trying to distance

21 yourself from these people; isn't that right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. They were telling the Inquiry in 2006 that they had only

24 stayed maybe twice before?

25 A. I'm saying they stayed more than twice and they stayed

1 with me for a month at the height of the Troubles.

2 Q. The first time we have ever heard anything about them

3 staying for a month is today. You were interviewed in

4 2001 on 10 April. Page [21300] of the transcript of

5 that interview you were asked about this. At the bottom

6 of the page:

7 "I think it's a black car he had.

8 "Question: If they had've came, would they have stayed

9 over often?

10 "Answer: Uh-huh ... Maybe not once a week, but when he

11 drank, Michael drinks like a fish."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But throughout that interview, you never say in fact,

15 "He stayed with me for a month"?

16 A. Well, I probably forgot, but Mr and Mrs McKee can verify

17 that they stayed with me for a month.

18 Q. Let's just go back to that night in question,

19 26/27 April, for a moment or two. Your daughter xxxxxxxxxx

20 is 11 and she sits up for a bit with the adults?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then she went to bed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. She went to her own bed?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And she fell asleep?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Some time subsequent to that, the McKees decide they

4 want to stay in your house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then what did you do with your daughter?

7 A. I took her from her double bed to my son's bed.

8 Q. So you woke her up?

9 A. I just lifted her. Once she was sleeping, there is no

10 waking xxxxxxxxxx up.

11 Q. So the McKees, just halfway through the night, said they

12 weren't going home?

13 A. They had a private student at the gym at 9 o'clock on

14 the Sunday, so they decided -- I wasn't leaving my

15 daughter to drive them home.

16 Q. Are you not sort of waiting for Robbie to come in at

17 about 11 or 12? Is that what you are saying?

18 A. His duty was 11 or 12, yes.

19 Q. Is it the case again that you are say that they just came,

20 not knowing whether he was working or not but just

21 completely on spec?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When 11 or 12 came and he didn't come home, what did

24 you do?

25 A. Well, if it happens, sometimes he would ring if he

1 could, but on this particular night he mustn't have been

2 able to get to a phone to let me know.

3 Q. Were you not getting a bit concerned come 11 or

4 12 o'clock?

5 A. I was quite used to that.

6 Q. Yes. But these guests had arrived all of a sudden and

7 they are hanging on and he hasn't come in yet?

8 A. I was quite used to his duty and if he didn't come home,

9 well, you knew he had to work.

10 Q. Was it not the case that you weren't expecting him home

11 that night at all at midnight?

12 A. Well, his duty was to 11 or 12. I was expecting him

13 home.

14 Q. And was it before 11 or 12 that the McKees decided to

15 stay over or after?

16 A. It was after.

17 Q. It was after that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what time?

20 A. Well, I'm not quite sure but both had consumed quite

21 a lot of drink. I wasn't prepared to bring them to

22 their home. I wasn't leaving my daughter. So they

23 talked about this private student and they would stay.

24 So that's what they done.

25 Q. Could they not have got a taxi?

1 A. Well, they never mentioned a taxi. So they just asked

2 me would it be okay. It would save them the bother in

3 the morning, they would just have to go about 200 yards

4 to the Tae Kwon Do club.

5 Q. So your husband was actually detailed to work until

6 3 am. Did you realise that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You have no recollection of that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So he would have known he wasn't going to be home until

11 at least three that night?

12 A. I don't know anything about that now.

13 Q. No. Let's just go to the next morning then. Your

14 husband does come in some time after three. Isn't that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he wake you when he was getting into bed at all?

18 A. No.

19 Q. By this time the McKees are asleep in your daughter's

20 room?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is he aware of that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And so he gets into the bed, and then do you have the

25 alarm set to get up?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You don't?

3 A. I do not have an alarm. I just automatically waken

4 every morning at whatever.

5 Q. Do you remember the phone ringing?

6 A. I do, yes.

7 Q. And tell us about that. What happened?

8 A. The phone rang and I asked who it was and Robert said he

9 had to go back to work.

10 Q. So did Robert answer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you have a phone by the bed or did you have to

13 get up?

14 A. I'm not sure at that time, now, if it was by the bed or

15 down in the hall.

16 Q. Did he explain why he was going back to work?

17 A. He just said there was -- had been a row in the town

18 with the Coach bus.

19 Q. And then do you remember him coming back?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell us about that. Were you awake, were you up?

22 A. I was awake, yes.

23 Q. Had you got up at that point?

24 A. I would probably have been up, yes.

25 Q. Were the McKees up?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were they still asleep?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your daughter's bed. Is your daughter up?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So everybody is asleep when Robbie came back?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you remember what time it was?

9 A. 8 o'clock.

10 Q. What makes you remember it was 8 o'clock?

11 A. Because I knew that the McKees had to go to the gym for

12 nine. I usually was up seven/half seven myself, so I

13 was up in the bedroom when he come home and I knew then

14 I had to hurry. I actually had to look after my mother

15 as well, so I had quite a lot, you know, to do in the

16 mornings.

17 Q. So Robbie comes in and the McKees aren't up yet?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he gets into bed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What does he tell you at that point?

22 A. I don't think he mentioned anything. He was tired. He

23 just got into bed.

24 Q. And falls fast asleep?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. But he falls asleep quickly, does he?

2 A. He would, yes.

3 Q. Then you got the McKees up?

4 A. I probably would have put on me and got the McKees up,

5 yes.

6 Q. And you make them a bit of tea and toast, or whatever?

7 A. I'm not sure, but I know it was tea -- tea, coffee.

8 Q. It is at this point that there is a conversation between

9 you and the McKees about some trouble in the town?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If Robbie says nothing to you when he comes back, gets

12 straight into bed and goes to sleep, how do you know

13 there was significant trouble in the town?

14 A. He had said the first time that there was something

15 happened with the Coach bus in town. That's all I was

16 told so I mentioned it to the McKees.

17 Q. So the only information you have is what Robbie tells

18 you when the phone rings as to why he has been recalled?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it is just something very vague about trouble with

21 the Coach bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that's all you have to tell the McKees?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you are saying that that's what prompts

3 Michael McKee to ask to use the phone to ring Hanvey's

4 house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just because Robbie has called back about something

7 about the bus?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You have no information about there being a serious

10 fight in the town or --

11 A. No, I had no information other than about the Coach bus,

12 there was a row by the Coach bus.

13 Q. So what time are the McKees up then? Obviously they are

14 going to hurry off for 9 o'clock?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We know that the gym is not too far from your house?

17 A. It is about 200 yards.

18 Q. How far is the police station?

19 A. It is about 1.4 miles.

20 Q. 1.4 miles?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And your husband would have been in uniform?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Well, I'm not quite sure. He could have changed in the

1 station, I wouldn't be sure about that.

2 Q. Yes. He might have changed in the station?

3 A. I'm not sure.

4 Q. So your husband is just coming home from the station --

5 by the way, he takes his car does he or does he walk?

6 A. He takes a car.

7 Q. So, what, five, 10 minutes getting back to your house?

8 A. About five minutes.

9 Q. So you are up with the McKees. What time is that?

10 About ten past, quarter past eight?

11 A. It might have been 25 past because they left about five

12 to nine.

13 Q. So they needed some time to get their tea or toast and

14 have a chat?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So of course it is 8.37 when you say they make the phone

17 call to Hanvey's house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would the simple thing not have been, Mrs Atkinson, for

20 the McKees or you to have asked Robbie who is only just

21 in the door -- you say eight o'clock --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- what did happen down the down? "Did you see Tracey?"

24 Any of those things?

25 A. No, I wasn't speaking to him about anything that

1 happened in the town.

2 Q. Would that not have been the simplest thing to do: let's

3 ask Robbie what happened?

4 A. Well, it was at that point Michael mentioned Tracey had

5 gone to the Coach and maybe she has -- I don't know if

6 she was engaged to Allister at that particular time, but

7 he passed some remark and -- about Tracey being with him

8 and he asked could he make the phone call to see if

9 Tracey was at the Hanveys'.

10 Q. You see, Tracey wasn't with Allister that night?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. They were on a break, you see. They weren't going out

13 at that time.

14 A. I wouldn't have been sure. It was an on/off

15 relationship.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: No one asked your husband, "Have you seen

17 Tracey?"

18 A. No.

19 MR McGRORY: You see, Michael would have known that,

20 Mrs Atkinson, that they weren't going out at that time.

21 A. I don't know. That's the remark he made. I didn't know

22 if they were together or not.

23 Q. You see, another difficulty about this is that your

24 husband was in the police station still at seven minutes

25 past eight. Did you know that?

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. No. If you could look at page [04149], please, this is

3 a document prepared at the direction of a senior police

4 officer who was investigating the making of this phone

5 call in 2001. About halfway down it says:

6 "One Constable Neill ..."

7 Could that be highlighted in the middle of the page,

8 "Constable Neill".

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. He was phoned at 5.40 and asked to come back. What

11 happened is he falls asleep but he has to be phoned

12 again. You see, itemised billing shows that his home

13 was rang at 5.53 and 8.07. That's on the telephone

14 records of the police station.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, during that phone call Constable Neill has a very

17 clear recollection of speaking to your husband who was

18 still in the police station at that time. So he is

19 still down in the police station, Mrs Atkinson, at at

20 least seven minutes past eight?

21 A. Well, it is only 1.4 miles, so it would only have taken

22 him about five minutes.

23 Q. Say he had got out of there as quick after seven minutes

24 past eight as physically possible, he has got to get

25 into his car, he has got to drive home and he has got to

1 come in. I'm suggesting to you he wouldn't have been in

2 the door until at least quarter past, 20 past probably?

3 A. Well, I don't know about that now but at eight, five

4 past, he was at home.

5 Q. Well, according to the police records he was still in

6 the police station, Mrs Atkinson.

7 This is a complete cock-and-bull story that you are

8 telling us.

9 A. I'm not telling any cock-and-bull story. I'm telling

10 the truth.

11 Q. You see, you have to have him asleep by eight o'clock,

12 don't you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Yes, you do, because if he is not asleep by eight

15 o'clock, then the easiest thing for Michael McKee or you

16 to have done would have been to turn round and ask him

17 when he came into the door, "What's all this about?"

18 A. I can only tell you what -- that he was home sleeping --

19 Mr McKee made the phone call from my house.

20 Q. Because unless these records are wrong, he would have

21 been coming in the door about quarter past to 20 past

22 eight, just in time, I suggest to you, Mrs Atkinson, to

23 put on the kettle and ring Hanvey's house?

24 A. No, Mr McKee rang Hanvey's house.

25 Q. I'm suggesting to you he did no such thing. Mr McKee

1 has admitted that he didn't.

2 A. I can't speak for Mr McKee. I can only tell you what

3 happened in my house.

4 Q. He spent six months in prison for his trouble. Are you

5 aware of that?

6 A. I am.

7 Q. Can you think of any reason why he would go to jail for

8 six months?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know what goes on in his head.

10 Q. No. You see, you are the one who has the relationship

11 with the Hanveys, isn't that right, Mrs Atkinson?

12 A. I have only -- Mr Hanvey was a work colleague and apart

13 from that, Allister done the Tae Kwon Do and that's the

14 only relationship I had with the family.

15 Q. You would have seen Mr Hanvey maybe two or three times

16 a week in the Northern Ireland Electricity building in

17 Portadown?

18 A. I worked in a different office.

19 Q. Yes, but you still would have seen him several times

20 a week?

21 A. I would have spoke to him about my work several times

22 a week.

23 Q. So he's a relatively close work colleague?

24 A. I wouldn't say close.

25 Q. You work in an electricity office building in

1 a reasonably medium-sized town. Isn't that right?

2 A. I do, yes.

3 Q. And you went to school with his wife; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And your daughter is becoming quite proficient in the

6 art of Tae Kwon Do herself by this time; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. She is now 11, she has been doing it since she was four?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And of course Michael McKee has been teaching her since

11 she was four?

12 A. That's right, yes.

13 Q. But Michael McKee is going off the rails, isn't he?

14 A. No, I'm not sure, but then he gradually --

15 Q. By April 1997?

16 A. Well, I'm not sure but he was gradually hitting the

17 drink.

18 Q. Yes. And he is maybe not paying so much attention to

19 teaching, is he?

20 A. Well, he was, yes.

21 Q. And Mr Allister Hanvey of course is quite a star in the

22 Tae Kwon Do club, isn't he?

23 A. He was, yes.

24 Q. And he is doing a bit of teaching himself?

25 A. He was. He was the first black belt. The children all

1 looked up to him. They were very proud of him.

2 Q. And he taught your daughter as well, didn't he?

3 A. He did, yes.

4 Q. Would you also have been conscious that your husband

5 maybe wouldn't have been the most popular guy

6 a Portadown?

7 A. Well, probably, yes.

8 Q. It is tough being a policeman within your own community,

9 isn't it?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. Particularly when some difficult things have to be done,

12 like reporting people for crimes or ... arresting them?

13 A. Well, his work was his work. He didn't speak to me

14 about his work. I just knew through Drumcree what

15 trouble was.

16 Q. Well, Drumcree was a big feature in your lives,

17 wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As indeed was the issue of marching in the Tunnel maybe,

20 eight or nine years earlier?

21 A. I can't remember that now.

22 Q. No. You don't remember that at all?

23 A. Well, I remember the start of Drumcree. I don't know

24 the year.

25 Q. Do you remember the controversy over Loyalist marches

1 through the Tunnel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And after the Anglo-Irish Agreement in the late 1980s

4 a stop was put to that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And a lot of people were very upset about that --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- within the Protestant community in Portadown

9 particularly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And one of the big tensions around Portadown at that

12 time was that the police were asked to stop the marchers

13 going through the Tunnel?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And your husband would have been one of those policemen?

16 A. Well, he could answer that.

17 Q. I'm asking you to answer it.

18 A. Well, I'm not sure what duty he carried out, you know,

19 if he was actually there. I wouldn't be just sure.

20 Q. You are just not too sure?

21 A. No.

22 Q. It didn't cause a lot of tension in your house that your

23 husband had to go out and stop neighbours and friends

24 and work colleagues from marching?

25 A. Well, it probably would have caused the Protestant

1 people in Portadown to not like us.

2 Q. But I want to know the effect it had in your household

3 when your husband was tasked with being one of those

4 policemen to stop this happening.

5 A. Well, we had quite a little -- quite a lot of bother at

6 the house. The effect on it was worry, but I stayed

7 put, I stayed in my house. I was determined. No one

8 was going to drive me out of it.

9 Q. In fact your house was attacked?

10 A. Yes, several times. I was actually shot at while I sat

11 in the living room.

12 Q. And this was because your husband was policing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And stopping Loyalists from marching where they expected

15 they should march?

16 A. Yes, it was his duty.

17 Q. Of course.

18 A. It was his work.

19 Q. Of course, but I'm suggesting that that puts an enormous

20 strain on a household?

21 A. Well, if you know our family, no. It might have been

22 stressful but it was a good house to live in.

23 Q. And if your husband had come in that morning and said to

24 you, "I have just seen young Hanvey involved in

25 attacking a guy, a Catholic, in the town," how would

1 that have affected you?

2 A. Well, he didn't say it. So, you know -- that's

3 something that I wouldn't think about, you know.

4 Q. It would have been another strain, wouldn't it,

5 Mrs Atkinson?

6 A. Well, it wasn't said, so I wouldn't have had the strain.

7 Q. You see, Mr Kenneth Hanvey had a dim view of your

8 husband. Are you aware of that?

9 A. Yes, well, he probably would have had towards the

10 police.

11 Q. Yes. But he had no time for your husband because of

12 what he perceived to be your husband's interference with

13 Loyalist marching. Are you aware of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Wouldn't that have been the last thing you needed? The

16 last thing you needed, Mrs Atkinson, was your husband

17 being a witness against Kenneth Hanvey's son?

18 A. Well, I really didn't think about it in that sense.

19 Robert could maybe answer that.

20 Q. You didn't think about it in that sense?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you thought about it in some sense?

23 A. I didn't think about it at all.

24 Q. If you didn't know about it, how could you think about

25 it at all -- well ...?

1 A. When I first knew about it was on the news. Robert

2 didn't discuss his work with me.

3 Q. This is only after he is arrested; is that right?

4 A. Pardon.

5 Q. This is only after Allister Hanvey is arrested; is that

6 right?

7 A. I'm not sure, but the first I knew about it was on the

8 news.

9 Q. Would it not have been a very attractive thing to do,

10 Mrs Atkinson, to lift the phone, one or other of you, to

11 Hanvey and warn them that there was a big investigation

12 going on?

13 A. Well, I didn't know anything about it other than the

14 Coach bus. Nobody's name was mentioned. And Mr McKee,

15 he asked to make the phone call and he made it. So I'm

16 not telling lies. Mr Michael McKee made the phone call

17 from my house.

18 Q. Mrs Atkinson, I'm suggesting to you either you or your

19 husband lifted the phone to Kenneth Hanvey's house.

20 A. No, Mr McKee actually made the call.

21 Q. The McKees weren't there at all. They just weren't even

22 there, were they?

23 A. Mr and Mrs McKee stayed at my house on the Saturday

24 night and left about five to nine to take a private

25 student -- or two private students up in the Tae Kwon Do

1 club.

2 Q. Would you never have phoned the Hanveys' house really?

3 A. No, except my daughter would have.

4 Q. Because you had to phone her again on 2 May. Is that

5 right?

6 A. I did, yes, for my daughter.

7 Q. It is awful bad luck, isn't it, that there should be two

8 completely unrelated and innocent phone calls to the

9 Hanvey household just at this time when there is an

10 allegation that your husband is tipping off

11 Allister Hanvey?

12 A. Well, is there any phone records to suggest that?

13 Q. We have got two, don't we?

14 A. Well, the second call was my daughter asked me to get

15 a pattern book. She was doing her exam. I don't know

16 if it was the exam or the world championships, and you

17 know what teenagers are like. She asked me and

18 I asked -- I rang, asked for whatever the pattern book

19 and gloves or whatever they had, and that was left in

20 the Tae Kwon Do club for my daughter.

21 Q. And you are utterly unaware at this time that the police

22 have information that your husband is tipping off

23 Allister Hanvey?

24 A. I'm unaware.

25 Q. You have lived with this for, what, 12 years now?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This has been an awful strain, this allegation, has it

3 not?

4 A. Well, if you know you are telling the truth -- I mean,

5 I'm telling the truth as to who made the phone call and

6 what happened at my house. So really it is a strain,

7 yes, to a certain extent, but if you know you are

8 truthful, you know, you just take it in your stride.

9 Q. One of the reasons for the strain is the fact that you

10 have been telling lies for 12 years, Mrs Atkinson?

11 A. No, I haven't been telling the lies for the 12 years.

12 Q. And you got your then friends, the McKees, to lie for

13 you?

14 A. Oh, nobody had to lie for me. If they were in my house,

15 made the phone call, what would I have to lie about?

16 Q. Well, they lied to help out Robbie, didn't they?

17 A. No, they stayed in my house and -- I mean, that's all I

18 can tell.

19 Q. Later it all fell apart, Mrs Atkinson?

20 A. Well, the Tae Kwon Do club folded because Mr McKee ran

21 away with one of the students' mothers, and she left so

22 the children was left without a club. After all the

23 years that -- he had started the club when my daughter

24 was four and after all those years then he just flew

25 town.

1 Q. They were good candidates to tell a lie, weren't they?

2 A. Well, they weren't telling a lie on my behalf because

3 they were in my house and stayed. He made the phone

4 call and I can tell you nothing more.

5 Q. You see, they got it off their chests, Mrs Atkinson.

6 The whole thing fell apart because they have just

7 accepted the lie.

8 A. Well, I don't know what goes through their heads, so I

9 can't answer for them.

10 Q. I suggest your life perhaps might begin to return to

11 some kind of normality if you just told the truth.

12 A. Well, I am telling the truth.

13 MR McGRORY: Very well.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs Atkinson, the Panel may have to consider

15 where the truth lies about this.

16 A. Yes.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: So I'm explaining this to you so that you

18 have an opportunity to deal with it.

19 A. Yes.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You have told us that the McKees had been

21 kind to you --

22 A. Yes.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: -- during the Drumcree troubles.

24 A. That's right.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Then they had made statements to the police

1 explaining that these telephone calls the police were

2 interested in were quite innocent.

3 A. Yes.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: But then they withdrew that and put

5 themselves, you understand, in jeopardy.

6 A. Yes.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall have to consider why they would

8 do that. Do you follow?

9 A. Yes.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, when you were yourself interviewed by

11 the police, you said they had only stayed at your house

12 a couple of times.

13 A. Yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Which wasn't quite accurate in view of the

15 time they had spent at your house --

16 A. Well --

17 MR UNDERWOOD: To be fair -- and this is a point that I was

18 going to pick up in re-examination -- that's not

19 accurate.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: That's not what Mrs Atkinson told the police.

22 What Mrs Atkinson told the police in that interview was

23 that while her husband had had to stay at Mahon Road,

24 the McKees had stayed with her for at least a fortnight.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I needn't trouble you then. There seems

1 to be no one with ...

2 Questions from MR BERRY

3 MR BERRY: I'm not sure if anybody else, Mrs Dinsmore or

4 Mr Mallon ...

5 MS DINSMORE: This is our witnesses and we do not proceed at

6 this stage, Mr Berry.

7 MR BERRY: I think that's what I was saying.

8 Mrs Atkinson, how long have you been married?

9 A. 34 years.

10 Q. And did you go out with your husband for a period of

11 time prior to that?

12 A. About five years.

13 Q. About five years. So you have been together for almost

14 40 years?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And have you ever told a lie for him?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Never?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Never the smallest lie, a white lie, if you like?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would you tell a lie for him?

23 A. I would not.

24 Q. You would not?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You love him, I assume?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But you don't love him enough to tell a lie for him?

4 A. I would have no reason to tell a lie for him.

5 Q. Presumably he always tells the truth then. So do you.

6 Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me be clear about it: you did tell lies for him in

9 relation to this evening?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And the morning of 27 April 1997 you did lie for him?

12 A. I did not.

13 Q. And on the subject of lies, could you assist us about

14 Tracey Clarke? Was there any reason why Tracey Clarke

15 in 1997 would tell lies about your husband?

16 A. Well, I couldn't answer for Tracey. I don't know.

17 Q. All right. Let me put it to you this way: Were you

18 aware of anything in their relationship, in their

19 contact with each other which would explain why she

20 would tell lies about him?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would you, for instance, be able to assist us as to why

23 on 10 May 1997 she alleged that your husband was keeping

24 Allister Hanvey informed and in fact had made the phone

25 call at 8.37 on 27 April 1997?

1 A. Well, I can't answer for Tracey. I don't know why she

2 would have said that.

3 Q. Yes. Well, she has made it up, obviously, according to

4 your account; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And really what I'm asking you is, from your own

7 knowledge of this, is there anything you can assist the

8 Panel with as to why she would have made it up, why she

9 would have taken umbrage against your husband?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. What about Andrea McKee? Back in 1997 was there any

12 reason why she disliked your husband?

13 A. I can't think of anything, no.

14 Q. Can you think of anything at any stage in your contact

15 with Andrea McKee whereby she would have a motive to

16 tell lies about you and your husband?

17 A. I don't know because we always helped at the Tae Kwon Do

18 club. I can't see a reason why she would have lied.

19 Q. What about Michael McKee? Would he have had any reason

20 to tell lies in relation to you or your husband?

21 A. No, I can't think of anything, no.

22 Q. That's three people, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you have no explanation at all and no reason that

25 you can give as to why they would tell lies about you

1 and your husband?

2 A. I can't really answer for them. I don't know why they

3 told the lies. I can only tell you the truth.

4 Q. You see, can I suggest to you you can't think of a

5 reason because there is no reason, because in fact they

6 are all telling the truth?

7 A. Well, I'm telling the truth.

8 Q. You are aware of the evidence that Andrea McKee gave to

9 this Inquiry, aren't you?

10 A. Yes, I'm aware of five statements she made, yes.

11 Q. Well, now, do you want to focus on what I asked you?

12 Are you aware of the evidence that she gave to the

13 Inquiry?

14 A. I am aware of all the evidence she has given.

15 Q. Yes. Are you aware of the evidence she has given to the

16 Inquiry?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Why did it take you three attempts to answer

19 that?

20 A. Well, I just thought it would ...

21 Q. What?

22 A. Let you know what I thought.

23 Q. In what sense?

24 A. In the sense that I have read all her statements, all

25 five of them.

1 Q. Yes, did I ask you about those statements?

2 A. No, but I just wanted to let you know I have read all of

3 her statements.

4 Q. Could you answer the questions that I ask you perhaps?

5 A. I will, yes.

6 Q. Did you feel the need perhaps to make a point that she

7 had made five statements?

8 A. No, why read five -- why read one and not five.

9 Q. Well, if you didn't feel the need to make the point, why

10 did you say that?

11 A. Because that's how I feel. She made five statements.

12 Q. Can I suggest to you, Mrs Atkinson, that the McKees were

13 not at your house on 26 and 27 April 1997 and can

14 I suggest that your husband used you and then the McKees

15 to provide cover for the phone call that was made at

16 8.37 on 27 April 1997?

17 A. Well, I can only tell you that Andrea and Michael stayed

18 at my house on that date and made the phone call the

19 next morning.

20 Q. And I'm not going to go through old ground or engage in

21 repetition. I simply want to put to you that the

22 account that Andrea McKee has given to this Inquiry is

23 in fact the truth and your account is a lying account?

24 A. My account is the truth. I can't see into Mrs McKee's

25 head as to why she would lie. I can only tell you now

1 that what I have -- I have always cooperated, I have

2 told the truth and I keep repeating myself, but that is

3 the truth.

4 MR McGRORY: I have nothing further, Mr Chairman.

5 MR MALLON: No questions.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

7 MR UNDERWOOD: There is nothing arising. Thank you very

8 much, unless of any of you have any questions.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: No.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mrs Atkinson.

11 I assume that might be a good moment for a break?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, 15 minutes.

13 (11.14 am)

14 (Short break)

15 (11.39 am)

16 MR UNDERWOOD: Robert Atkinson, please.

17 MR ROBERT ATKINSON (sworn)

18 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD

19 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. My name is Underwood, I'm

20 counsel to the Inquiry. I think you probably know the

21 routine, which is that I ask questions primarily here.

22 Other people may ask some supplemental ones.

23 We all know you haven't been well. If at any point

24 you need a break, let us know.

25 A. Thank you.

1 Q. What are your full names please?

2 A. Robert Cecil Atkinson.

3 Q. Can we have a look at page [81385]. I wonder if you

4 would have a look at this while we scroll through this

5 briefly, just so we can identify it. Is that the

6 witness statement that you have compiled with the aid of

7 your solicitor?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 Q. Do you say the contents of that are true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I wonder if you would do me a favour and move the

12 microphone towards you. I'm not sure that the

13 stenographer is going to pick up everything otherwise.

14 Thank you very much.

15 I want to ask first about the events of the night of

16 26/27 April 1997 and put to you all sorts of general

17 questions as well as questions about what you saw and

18 did.

19 We had a witness a long time ago now who said to us

20 that he had been in town on a number of occasions when

21 there was trouble at the crossroads and police would be

22 there in a Land Rover and they would watch the fighting

23 and that the fighting would end up with nothing

24 particularly serious in terms of injuries and the police

25 would just let it go, not take any action. Can you

1 comment on ever having seen or experienced that?

2 A. No, it never happened any time I was working.

3 Q. Can I ask about the Land Rover itself and the way in

4 which it was equipped. I think you referred somewhere

5 to one of the officers, a man we are calling P40, having

6 a long arm?

7 A. That would be correct, yes.

8 Q. What was the armaments situation with the four of you in

9 the Land Rover?

10 A. The four of us had side arms and the normal thing was

11 either to carry one or two long arms in the vehicle. I

12 think on the night in question, the constable you refer

13 to was carrying a -- I'm not sure what it was but some

14 sort of rifle.

15 Q. Can you help us about the way in which officers in those

16 days were expected to use their guns? Would the long

17 arm be used in a public order situation?

18 A. No, primarily for self-defence.

19 Q. What about the side arms?

20 A. Same thing, really.

21 Q. Was there any ruling or practice about where the long

22 arm would go? Would that be kept in the Land Rover?

23 A. No, the person who signed for it and took it out would

24 normally carry it with him.

25 Q. And where you are on public order duties and something

1 breaks out, would anybody need to stay with the Land

2 Rover?

3 A. Of course, yes.

4 Q. Who would that be? Would that be the observer?

5 A. Usually the observer would stay with the Land Rover.

6 Excuse me, I have a bit of hay fever.

7 Q. Was that for the purpose of using the radio?

8 A. Yes. Obviously in the past vehicles had been taken and

9 burned by crowds. So you always had to leave someone

10 with it.

11 Q. Right. And if the person who has got the long arm isn't

12 the observer, would they be expected to get out and wade

13 into the trouble carrying their long arm with them?

14 A. The normal thing would be the observer hadn't got the

15 long arm, it was normally a person in the back.

16 Q. Say you have got a situation where there is a skirmish

17 going on and you feel the need to get out and deal with

18 it, your observer would stay with the vehicle to deal

19 with the radio and make sure somebody didn't pinch it

20 and the person with the long arm, would they leave the

21 long arm in the vehicle and go off?

22 A. Not normally because if the observer is at the front of

23 the vehicle, the back of the vehicle is not secure.

24 Q. Right. Does that mean that the person with the long arm

25 would tend to stay in the vehicle with the long arm?

1 A. In or about the vehicle if they can.

2 Q. So in practical terms of the four people in the Land

3 Rover, only two were --

4 A. Two were capable of giving any assistance, yes.

5 Q. Right.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be difficult to see that he had the

7 long arm when he got out of the vehicle?

8 A. No, it shouldn't be, Mr Chairman.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm jumping ahead now, but we have not heard

10 from anybody that when the officer we are calling P40

11 got out, he took the long arm with him. Do you have any

12 recollection of whether he did or not?

13 A. It is that long ago I'm obviously unaware, but I would

14 nearly be 99 per cent sure that he definitely would have

15 took it with him. It is a very, very dangerous thing to

16 leave it in the back of the Land Rover.

17 Q. Let me just go back a little. You have said you can't

18 remember what sort of long arm it was but could it have

19 been a submachine gun?

20 A. In all probability it would have been a Ruger rifle or

21 an MP5.

22 Q. So actually physically quite long?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to move on to the situation where a man walked in

25 front or was walking around the vicinity of the Land

1 Rover and said something. We know, because we have

2 heard evidence from Mr Mallon, what he says about that,

3 we have heard evidence from at least one other officer

4 about this. We know you were in the back, and can you

5 help us with what you saw or what you were aware of in

6 relation to this man?

7 A. The first I was aware was I was sitting directly behind

8 the observer looking out forward and a person came

9 across in front of the Land Rover and at the same time

10 there were two people coming up, two males were coming

11 up the High Street on the left-hand side of the Land

12 Rover and they seemed to speak to them or something like

13 that. But the observer, she opened the door and told

14 them to move on.

15 Q. Did you get a decent look at him, the man who walked in

16 front?

17 A. Just basically as he crossed, nothing.

18 Q. Were you aware that he said anything to Mr Neill or to

19 anybody else in the vehicle?

20 A. As far as I can recollect, he said something to the two

21 people walking on the footpath. There were some words

22 exchanged between them, but I didn't realise that he had

23 said anything in towards the Land Rover.

24 Q. Again, a long time ago and this is a small detail, but

25 can you remember whether the vehicle was moving?

1 A. No, the vehicle was parked.

2 Q. I don't think you went to the reconstruction in June?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If we look at the police vehicle positions and police

5 cordon on the virtual reality suite -- if we can just go

6 back to the map on this. I'm sure you have seen this

7 map in various --

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. And LR1, for what it is worth, is further back in the

10 lay-by and LR2 is a position which other officers have

11 suggested was where the vehicle was moving when this man

12 walked in front and it then came to a stop at LR3?

13 A. No, my recollection is we were parked at LR3 when he

14 came across.

15 Q. Again, it may be just a matter of detail, it may turn

16 out to be important: are you content that LR3 as marked

17 there is where the Land Rover ended up?

18 A. Within maybe a foot or two -- it could have been

19 a little bit further forward towards the corner, very

20 little, but it is near enough.

21 Q. Okay. While we are in this, let's have a look at the

22 views from LR3, if we may. You were on the passenger

23 side at the back, were you?

24 A. At the middle of the vehicle there, between the -- there

25 is a partition between the driver and the observer in

1 the rear of the vehicle and I was sitting against the

2 partition.

3 Q. So none of these positions, in fact?

4 A. Yes, the third from the right at the top. I was there.

5 Q. Okay. If we click on that -- that one?

6 A. No.

7 Q. To the right?

8 A. To the right. No, to the right. No, that's not my

9 position.

10 Q. The one directly behind the --

11 A. The one directly behind the observer, which is all over.

12 Q. That's it?

13 A. That's it there, yes.

14 Q. So is this a fair representation of the view you would

15 have had if you had been looking forward?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Let's go back to the two men. You say that the

18 observer -- that's Miss Cornett -- opened her door and

19 had a word with the two who had approached the man who

20 had crossed in front. Is that right?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. What did you hear of that?

23 A. From my recollection, she said something to them like,

24 "Go on home, boys," something like that. She just told

25 them to go on their way, something like that.

1 Q. We have heard evidence from them and we have heard other

2 evidence to the effect that those two in fact approached

3 the Land Rover and Miss Cornett had her door open and

4 they were standing there talking to her?

5 A. I don't recall that, no.

6 Q. Okay. You have obviously given evidence about this at

7 the trial of Mr Hobson?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And there you told the judge that there was a three- or

10 four-minute gap between the incident where you saw

11 Miss Cornett tell them to push off and the door being

12 pushed open, Mr Neill's door?

13 A. That's right, as far as I can recollect.

14 Q. Tell us about that. What happened?

15 A. We were just sitting in the vehicle and the next thing

16 the door bust open and I could see Constable Neill going

17 out at an angle as if somebody had grabbed him, pulled

18 him out.

19 Q. There was some suggestion while the vehicle was there

20 that Mr Neill's door was ajar. Any recollection of

21 that?

22 A. No, I couldn't honestly say if it was pulled closed or

23 sitting slightly open. I don't know. All I can

24 recollect was him getting pulled bodily to the side.

25 Q. Okay. If the door had been shut, would it have been

1 automatically locked?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So people could actually have opened it from the

4 outside?

5 A. Hm-mm.

6 Q. Okay. Did you get out then?

7 A. Yes, I immediately got out.

8 Q. And went round to see what was going on with Mr Neill, I

9 think?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was the man dealing with Mr Neill there and then the

12 same man who had walked in front?

13 A. Yes, I thought it was, yes.

14 Q. You have said this several times in interview and other

15 officers have given a different account.

16 A. I was of the opinion it was the same man.

17 Q. Fair enough. I just want to test that with you because

18 the clothing was the same?

19 A. Yes, it was his clothing. He had a blue-ish coloured

20 shirt on and to me it was the same person who crossed

21 the front of the wagon.

22 Q. What was he saying?

23 A. He just seemed to be having an altercation. I didn't

24 really pick the words up. They had squared up to each

25 other by the time I got round to them and then faced

1 each other and then it just seemed to be over as quick

2 as it had started.

3 Q. And where I come from people get arrested for doing

4 that --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- and he didn't get arrested. Can you explain why?

7 A. If we arrested him at that particular time, if we

8 arrested everybody that squared up to us we wouldn't

9 have the room to put them in.

10 Q. It was the pulling out of the Land Rover I was talking

11 about. Did something else get in the way?

12 A. Obviously Neill knew more about it than I did. It was

13 up to Constable Neill to deal with it. If he was going

14 to arrest him at that stage, he should have.

15 Q. Sure. What else was going on then?

16 A. When I was there, I became aware that there was a bit of

17 catcalling and there was a few sporadic groups across

18 the street.

19 Q. Let's have a look at the night model and see if you can

20 help us with where people were. Again, we put the Land

21 Rover there (indicates)?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. To within a foot or so that's accurate enough, yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Obviously we are looking at it here from a different

1 angle, we are looking from the top end of Thomas Street.

2 If we take a screen shot of this, you will be able to

3 mark on it. Can you help us with the pen that's there?

4 Very roughly marking -- I hope there is a white pen?

5 A. Yes, sitting here, yes.

6 Q. Right. Help us, as roughly as needs be, with where

7 people were?

8 A. To the very left of the picture, here, here (indicates).

9 Q. Okay, if we mark those together as 1, so a number of

10 groups of people or two sides, or what?

11 A. There seemed to be two opposing groups, but they were

12 split up into twos, threes, fours in factions and they

13 were spread across the entire width of the street. They

14 weren't standing in a group.

15 Q. Can you help us with numbers?

16 A. I would say there was probably, in the smaller group,

17 10 to 12 and in the larger group in or around 15 in

18 total, like. But having said that, again they were

19 spread twos, threes and fours across the street.

20 Q. Okay. And you were clear they were up that side of the

21 street?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Obviously we are concerned to know whether there was

24 anybody on the ground by the time police officers got

25 out?

1 A. Not at that stage when I was there, no.

2 Q. Let me jump forward and while we have got this screen

3 and a pen, can you help by marking where in the end you

4 saw people on the ground?

5 A. Not exactly. Looking from this angle, it is really

6 a bad view, you know. If you were looking from the

7 other angle ... But roughly about here, I imagine

8 (indicates). It is hard to envisage, there is a corner

9 of a building here. I think it's Eastwoods shop.

10 Q. It is, yes.

11 A. Somewhere about Eastwoods shop, here (indicates).

12 Q. So down from Instep on our view?

13 A. But on this side of the road.

14 Q. If with we mark where you put a cross, 2, and then we

15 will come out of the screen shot and go back to this

16 model. If we pan it round to the left, this is in front

17 of Eastwoods --

18 A. That is a better view, yes.

19 Q. If we go back a bit -- stop there -- is that helpful?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you help us --

22 A. There was one person on the street about here.

23 Q. We need to take a screen shot before you --

24 A. All right.

25 Q. Right. So, again, if you can mark ...?

1 A. Again, I imagine somewhere about there (indicates).

2 Q. Okay. We will call that number 3, that mark. Now,

3 again I'm jumping ahead of events here, but was it

4 person 2 or person 3 that turned out to be Mr Hamill?

5 A. Person 3, I think.

6 Q. Now, he is quite close to where you would have first

7 seen the crowd; is that correct?

8 A. Yes --

9 Q. Sorry, go on?

10 A. Well, the larger crowd might have been further back.

11 Q. Further back towards Clarks or towards the church?

12 A. No, further back towards the church direction, yes.

13 Q. Is it possible that Mr Hamill could have been there when

14 you got out?

15 A. Definitely not, no.

16 Q. So no possibility at all that he was obscured --

17 A. No, because after I had -- Constable Neill and myself

18 had left the Land Rover, we saw a guy that we assumed,

19 out of the smaller crowd, to be getting into trouble.

20 There had been a clash of two or three together. There

21 was maybe four guys had grabbed this lad. The two of us

22 ran across from the Land Rover and grabbed him from them

23 and that -- we would have had at that stage to run

24 directly over the top of where the body actually

25 ended up.

1 Q. Again, I'm taking things out of order. Let me go back

2 to the point where you have got out of the Land Rover,

3 you have got these groups of people. How quickly did it

4 develop into a physical clash?

5 A. There was a lot of catcalling, they were calling each

6 other names, which was fairly normal for that type of

7 situation, and there was no -- there was no coming

8 together physically. Then the next thing there was

9 a few bottles and stones started to go -- and just like

10 that it broke out.

11 Q. Right. And is that the point at which you and Mr Neill

12 wade in to get one --

13 A. We saw this guy -- the two groups -- one was as bad as

14 the other -- they were squaring up to each other and

15 this guy got -- he seemed to get in difficulties and I

16 think there was three or four in a group got a hold of

17 him, so we made our way as fast as we could. We just

18 ran straight across away, grabbed him and run him

19 straight in around the back of the Land Rover and put

20 him back into Woodhouse Street.

21 Q. You assumed he was a Catholic?

22 A. I assumed he was, yes.

23 Q. Can you now tell us what he was wearing?

24 A. The guy that we took away?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. I think he had light coloured top on him, a sports top.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. He wasn't a bulky -- he was a small-ish lad, you know,

4 youthful. Sort of a ...

5 Q. Right. How did it continue?

6 A. It then basically -- a lot of stones and bottles and

7 things were thrown and it broke out into four or five

8 fights across the street.

9 Q. And did you and Constable Neill stick together or were

10 you off trying to sort things out between you?

11 A. Basically we were together at the back of the Land Rover

12 and then, as far as I can recollect, this guy that he

13 had had the altercation with him, he proceeded to have

14 a go at me, grabbed me by the jacket and -- I had my

15 baton out and he tried to take the baton off me. I had

16 a physical tussle with me and I got the strap broke off

17 my baton, but I still maintained my hold on the baton

18 and he broke away then.

19 Q. I think you described him as being like a gorilla?

20 A. Yes, he was real stocky.

21 Q. So, again, this is the third sighting of this one

22 person, is it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At what point did you realise that there was somebody on

25 the ground?

1 A. When I was having a tussle with this guy, obviously I

2 had a baton in one hand so I was only able to hold on to

3 him with the other hand. I had my flak jacket on, which

4 is about a two-stone weight. It is sort of wearing you

5 down. He spun me round and I got a quick look over my

6 shoulder and I could see a body on the ground at that

7 stage.

8 Q. Now, is that the one we are looking at as number 3 here

9 or is it the other one, number 2?

10 A. No, I think it was number 2, but I couldn't be

11 100 per cent sure. It was that quick, I just got a spin

12 round and I saw a couple of guys at this body. But my

13 immediate thing was to try and stop this guy from

14 getting the baton off me because I knew what was going

15 to happen if he got it.

16 Q. Sure. Did you get any impression of what these two at

17 the body were doing?

18 A. They were jumping about him.

19 Q. Could you give any sense of identification?

20 A. No, I just got a fleeting glance and I was spun round

21 and I was still trying to get myself squared up and get

22 this boy off me.

23 Q. How did things go from there?

24 A. Well, I got him broke away off me and run across the

25 road then and the two bodies were lying on the road.

1 Q. So that's the first time you saw this number 3, is it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was happening around the two of them?

4 A. There was no one at them when we got across and when

5 I say we, I'm talking Constable Neill and myself. There

6 was no one at him, but I noticed at number 3 there was

7 a bottle lying on the road broken and I -- well, I still

8 assumed that this had been a thrown bottle, you know.

9 Now, whether it struck the person or not, I'm not sure

10 but it was lying beside him and the ground was wet, so

11 there obviously had been liquid in the bottle at that

12 stage.

13 Q. What were people doing if they weren't around these two

14 people?

15 A. They had moved back.

16 Q. Back up towards the church?

17 A. Back up towards the church, yes.

18 Q. What was going on --

19 A. They were still catcalling --

20 Q. Okay. Was there any point after that at which people

21 tried to get at the men on the ground?

22 A. There was indeed, yes.

23 Q. Tell us about that.

24 A. I got in front of number 3 here and there was several

25 attempts to sort of come through and get at him again.

1 And I did in fact strike a guy then and put him back up

2 the street.

3 Q. Is that Mr Robinson?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. You hit him with your baton?

6 A. I did, yes.

7 Q. We have heard tales of police pushing people up the

8 street.

9 A. That was later.

10 Q. Right. So can you give us some impression then of what

11 was going on while you were by what turned out to be

12 Mr Hamill and you ended up having to hit Rory Robinson

13 with your baton. What was the general situation?

14 A. The general situation was they were still catcalling,

15 roaring and shouting at each other and we were stuck

16 between the two factions.

17 Q. So the Catholics are behind you, are they?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So at this stage we have got two men on the ground, both

20 of whom were Catholics out of which you took to be an

21 initial group of 10 or 12 Catholics?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. How many Catholics would you say were then behind you?

24 A. I really wasn't in a position to look, to be honest. I

25 was too busy trying to keep the crowd back, but I assume

1 it was the same number that I initially saw.

2 Q. Okay. When you were forced to hit Rory Robinson with

3 the baton, how close were people able to get to

4 Mr Hamill?

5 A. Probably from about me to you.

6 Q. Right, so 10 feet away maybe?

7 A. Yes. I would have been at 10 feet away maybe at that

8 stage.

9 Q. We know, for example, that Stacey Bridgett's blood from

10 a nose bleed dripped or got on to the jeans of

11 Mr Hamill.

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Can you give us any sense at what stage in all of this

14 that could have occurred?

15 A. No. From the initial find of the bodies on the ground,

16 they didn't get back at the bodies.

17 Q. From the initial stage where you saw bodies on the

18 ground, did any of the Protestants get nearer than, say,

19 10 feet from the two?

20 A. Certainly not where I was. I don't know -- I couldn't

21 speak for the other -- the whole thing was just

22 pandemonium really, if you know what I mean.

23 Q. We have had a Catholic witness who tells us that he

24 pulled kickers away from Mr Hamill and was helped by

25 police to do that. Were you conscious of anything like

1 that happening?

2 A. No, I wasn't.

3 Q. Let's go back to this position where you are --

4 pandemonium, I understand, so difficult to describe.

5 But very broadly, you are, as it were, defending

6 Mr Hamill --

7 A. I'm in front of Eastwoods shop on the corner.

8 Q. At what point compared with that did reinforcements

9 turn up?

10 A. I would say from when they were initially called it

11 could have been maybe six or seven minutes or something

12 like that period of time, and it would have been --

13 I suppose we were defending ourselves for two or three

14 minutes on our own without help.

15 Q. Where were you when the back-up arrived?

16 A. I was just in the same position.

17 Q. Right.

18 A. On the side of the street and the back-up came down the

19 street on the opposite side in an armoured car.

20 Q. Okay. We know that the sergeant and inspector turned up

21 from the station?

22 A. Yes. That was later.

23 Q. Right. That's after the reinforcements came?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you get a chance to tell anybody when they arrived

1 what was going on, what had happened?

2 A. No, it was obvious to see what was going on. They

3 hadn't to be told, really.

4 Q. Now, you told us about hitting Rory Robinson?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that because he was trying to get to Mr Hamill?

7 A. Yes. I told him to go back, I think. I'm not sure of

8 the exact wording, but I told him to move back and he

9 wouldn't move back and he started to jostle and push

10 forward as if to go past me. So he had had his warning,

11 so he got struck.

12 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about Wayne Lunt. I think you

13 know who he is?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We know that a lady constable -- we are calling her

16 Constable A -- took him to the Land Rover and he was

17 there to establish his identity for a bit. Did you help

18 in that?

19 A. I did, yes.

20 Q. Were you there when he was let out of the Land Rover?

21 A. No.

22 Q. We have heard not least from her that it would have been

23 impractical to arrest him and keep him at the scene?

24 A. I would agree with that and obviously if she knew his

25 identity, he would have been very easy to re-arrest at

1 any time when required.

2 Q. Would that have been true as well with, say, Robinson?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You knew who Robinson was?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And we have heard evidence about who was supposed to be

7 in charge in these situations and one of the pieces of

8 evidence we have heard is that the observer in the first

9 back-up car to arrive is supposed to take charge. I see

10 from your face that you are sceptical?

11 A. That's a new one to me.

12 Q. You wouldn't have expected Constable A to be in charge

13 of all this?

14 A. No, the senior constable on the ground at that time

15 until a supervisory sergeant or an inspector appeared.

16 The observer in the other vehicle could have been

17 a reserve constable. It wouldn't make sense really for

18 the --

19 Q. This may or may not be important, but as far as you are

20 concerned, was PC Neill --

21 A. As far as I was concerned at that time, yes.

22 Q. Did you see the ambulance arrive?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were you aware that what turned out to be Mr Hamill

25 was stretchered into it?

1 A. I am. The ambulance arrived after I had dealt with

2 Wayne Lunt.

3 Q. Right.

4 A. During the trial of Mr Hobson the ambulance driver and I

5 had sort of disagreed as to where he had parked. Now, I

6 don't know why he said he was in one place. My

7 recollection was he was in another, you know, a slightly

8 different position. But, yes, I saw the ambulance

9 pulling up and at that stage there was police giving

10 first aid to the two parties.

11 Q. To both of them?

12 A. Yes, and then the ambulance pulled up. So after that I

13 had no dealings other than to help push the crowd back.

14 Q. By the time you had got to that stage, helping to push

15 the crowd back, were the sergeant and the inspector

16 there?

17 A. Yes, I'm not sure about the inspector but the sergeant

18 was definitely there.

19 Q. Were you quite close to the sergeant physically when you

20 were doing this?

21 A. He could have been maybe to my right about six or seven

22 yards, maybe, or eight yards across from me.

23 Q. Because you had a conversation with him about

24 Allister Hanvey?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

1 Q. Where you warned him Hanvey was a martial arts expert?

2 A. I think they directly asked me, "Who is this guy here?"

3 And I just in passing said, "Just watch him," and I told

4 him his name.

5 Q. Again, easy for us to imagine that there you are 12 feet

6 away from him and that was a static positions --

7 A. I still had a group in front of me which I was dealing

8 with and he was to my right with a small group in front

9 of him, as were other police to his right again.

10 As the street sort of had broadened out, it gets

11 wider all the time there, so we are actually getting

12 spread out all the time.

13 Q. Could you see what it was that the sergeant was having

14 to contend with with Allister Hanvey?

15 A. No, he wasn't doing anything. He just -- the reason

16 I named him to him and told him to watch himself is

17 what -- he says to me, "Who is this guy?"

18 Q. Sergeant P89 has told us that he thought that Hanvey

19 was going to try and drop him?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Did you see that?

22 A. No, I didn't see that, no. I was still involved with

23 the -- Robinson and -- I forget the name of the other

24 guy.

25 Q. Did you have any more dealings with Bridgett?

1 A. Aye, Robinson and Bridgett and those guys. I was still

2 involved with them.

3 Q. With Bridgett at the front being troublesome?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So -- again, I want to concentrate now on --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You saw him?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You, in response to Sergeant P89 asking him who he

10 was, named --

11 A. I named him, yes.

12 Q. And gave him a warning?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Although, you say, a light one?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see Hanvey doing anything else?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you have any conversation with him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you have any reason to believe he was drunk or high

21 on drugs?

22 A. I didn't form any opinion of that at the time, no.

23 Q. Did you see Tracey Clarke there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You have told us that you named Hanvey to --

1 A. Sergeant P89, yes.

2 Q. You actually gave him the name Hanvey or --

3 A. Allister Hanvey.

4 Q. Thank you. When Allister Hanvey was interviewed in due

5 course, he said that a policeman had asked him to help

6 move the crowd back?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And he identified an officer, and I think this was put

9 to you at some point. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes, it was put to me in interview, yes.

11 Q. And you took the view it wasn't a description of you?

12 A. I think the description was -- well, it certainly wasn't

13 the colour of my hair, you know.

14 Q. Were you aware of any other officer on the scene knowing

15 Allister Hanvey?

16 A. Oh, a few of them would have known him, yes.

17 Q. You know, I think, that Trevor Leatham has provided

18 a statement --

19 A. Yes, I have read his statement, yes.

20 Q. He has now given evidence to the effect that he had

21 a conversation with you and you told him at some point

22 that Hanvey was high on drink or drugs?

23 A. I don't recall that conversation. Trevor -- to be fair,

24 Trevor has a drink problem. Most times Trevor was high

25 on a drop of drink.

1 Q. When you say "to be fair", to be fair to who?

2 A. Trevor. Well, Trevor would have normally kept a bottle

3 of cider in the car when he was going about. So Trevor

4 had his own drink problem.

5 Q. I want to move on to the debriefing stage.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We know that the four of you in the Land Rover went back

8 to the station and clocked off?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If that's not too formal a phrase. Did you have any

11 discussion on the way back about what you had all seen

12 and done?

13 A. I can't recall, no.

14 Q. You were then, I think, allowed to go home?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Nobody asked you to make a notebook entry, is that

17 right, at that stage?

18 A. I'm not sure -- I'm not sure when I made my notebook

19 entry, if it was at that time or later on.

20 Q. As best we can make out, you were asked to make

21 a statement after this?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. You made a statement and I think you made your notebook

24 entry after that. Is that your recollection --

25 A. I can't recall. I just honestly can't recall.

1 Q. Okay. We know that you went home and were recalled?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And you went back in for the purpose of making

4 a statement. Is that your recollection?

5 A. Yes. Well, I just was recalled. I didn't know I was

6 going in to make a statement. When I got in I was told

7 to make a statement.

8 Q. Who was there when you got back? Can you help us?

9 A. I think it was Detective Constable Keys. From memory, I

10 think that's who it was.

11 Q. Did he do anything more than just say, "Please make

12 a statement"?

13 A. No, not that -- well, I wasn't -- I wasn't aware of him

14 doing anything else other than ask me to make

15 a statement.

16 Q. Right. Did you talk to anybody else before you sat down

17 and wrote it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I think your recollection of this is that you sat down

20 and wrote it from start to finish at that point; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What Sergeant Bradley said is that the next day when he

24 came in, the 28th, he wanted to interview the four of

25 you who had been in the Land Rover and at that point you

1 said, "I haven't actually finished my statement" and you

2 then went off and finished it. Is that wrong?

3 A. I don't recall that because I had written my statement

4 and put it in the CID pigeonhole.

5 Q. How does that work? There was a pigeonhole for the CID

6 to pick stuff out of, was there?

7 A. Yes. My recollection was that I completed my statement

8 and put it in the pigeonhole. During one of my

9 interviews it was put to me that I didn't finish my

10 statement for a couple of days and it was pointed out to

11 Sergeant Bradley that he had signed it and dated it on

12 that day.

13 Q. Now, you didn't mention Allister Hanvey in the

14 statement?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. Because from previous experience, I had been involved in

18 a riot situation in Bellaghy in County Londonderry and

19 at that particular time, I was in the Mobile Support

20 Unit and the whole unit was involved in a real

21 full-scale fracas across the street and, for instance,

22 if I was on the left, I named what the guy on the right

23 of me was doing and he named what I was doing,

24 et cetera, et cetera. When the case come to court, the

25 judge threw it out because he said all our statements

1 were too alike. So from that time on, any time I made

2 a statement I just dealt with what I had saw in front of

3 me and who you dealt with, and that's why he never got

4 a mention. The fact that I had already told my

5 supervising sergeant who he was I assumed was enough.

6 Q. We know that over the next day or two you gave another

7 couple of names: so Victoria Clayton, Rat Gray?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that because you were asked to name anybody you had

10 seen?

11 A. No, it was -- in the whole pandemonium that was going

12 on, you saw people but they didn't register in your

13 mind, and then it come back to you in a day -- oh, I saw

14 him that night or I saw her that night, and any that

15 come back into recollection were given to CID.

16 Q. Right. So is this right then: There was no point at

17 which somebody sat you down and said, "Never mind your

18 normal practice, you just tell us everything you saw

19 that night"?

20 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. Sergeant Bradley had spoken

21 to us and said, "Anything that you can recollect come

22 back and tell me," or something like that. But we

23 weren't actually sat in a room and told, "Right, you are

24 going to sit here and say who you saw and who you didn't

25 see".

1 Q. If Sergeant Bradley said to you, "Write down anything

2 that you can recollect," why didn't you say,

3 "I recollect Hanvey"?

4 A. I already told my supervising sergeant. I was

5 quite aware that Sergeant P89 was aware of who he

6 was. I hadn't dealt with Allister Hanvey at all.

7 I basically had told Sergeant Bradley the people who I

8 had dealt with on the night.

9 Q. Did you appreciate that it was a serious assault?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know that by the time you got back to the police

12 station to make your statement on the morning of the

13 27th, at 6 o'clock or so?

14 A. We knew it was an assault, grievous bodily harm, but you

15 saw several of those every month. It didn't stick out

16 as being any more serious than any one. It was just

17 that there was a larger crowd involved in that than

18 normal.

19 Q. Did it occur to you that what the detectives would want

20 to do would be to interview everybody who was at the

21 scene?

22 A. That usually took place within the next few days of any

23 assault or any incident that you had been at.

24 Q. Sure, and the only way they could find out was if the

25 officers at the scenes gave the names or identification?

1 A. I know what you are getting at. I had already given

2 Mr Hanvey's name to my supervising sergeant. Who else

3 could I give it to?

4 Q. I know you are giving that evidence now. Was that your

5 thinking at the time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. As I have explained to you, the names that were put in

9 my statement were the names of people that I dealt with

10 on the street.

11 Q. We know that Mr Bridgett was one of the two men who were

12 at the Land Rover before --

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. -- the fighting broke out and you have told us he was at

15 the front causing trouble later on. Did you see what he

16 did immediately after --

17 A. From when he left the Land Rover?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. What about Mr Forbes? Did you see him again after

21 getting out of the Land Rover?

22 A. I didn't actually know Mr Forbes at all. I hadn't even

23 a clue who he was until later on, maybe two or three

24 days later. Some of the other police had said to me,

25 "Could you identify a boy" and said what he was wearing.

1 I hadn't even saw him at all.

2 Q. Two things I want to ask you about that: the one is what

3 I originally wanted to ask which is never mind whether

4 you knew his name, did you see him again after you got

5 out the Land Rover?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Right. The second is --

8 A. Did I see him again after I got out of the Land Rover?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I hadn't seen him at all.

11 Q. Sorry, I thought you saw two men approach the --

12 A. I did, yes, but I wasn't aware one of them was Forbes.

13 Q. No, no. Never mind what you thought his name might have

14 been.

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. The two guys who walked up the footpath --

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- I -- in my opinion was Bridgett and Robinson.

20 Q. Right. What you also just told me was that a few days

21 later a policeman asked you whether you could identify

22 somebody who turned out to be Forbes?

23 A. Yes, some of the police were trying to go through what

24 some of the people were wearing.

25 Q. This is a process I want to find out about, please. Are

1 you talking about detectives here?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Right. So can you recall which constables it was, or

4 reserve constables?

5 A. I can. It was a reserve constable.

6 Q. Can you recall Constable Cooke, perhaps?

7 A. No, I think it was Warnock.

8 Q. Right.

9 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think it was Warnock.

10 Q. Just tell us about that. What was going on? Was he

11 going round asking people for their recollections, or

12 how did it go?

13 A. Just, "Did you see someone dressed in a certain --

14 whatever -- obviously he had dealt with -- he had dealt

15 with one of these guys on the street. Did you see him

16 and I had said no, I don't know who you are talking

17 about.

18 Q. Did you get the impression he was trying to put a name

19 it to a face?

20 A. Yes, something like that, yes.

21 Q. Did anybody ever ask to you attend an identification

22 parade or confrontation?

23 A. No. When I was called to the trial of Mr Hobson, I had

24 never seen him before.

25 Q. Just going back to Bridgett, did you see him carrying

1 a bottle when he was at the Land Rover or around the

2 Land Rover?

3 A. No, I couldn't say he had, like.

4 Q. Do I take it from your earlier answer that you don't

5 know how he got his bloody nose?

6 A. No. It wouldn't be hard to work it out. He was

7 obviously involved in the scuffle somewhere in the

8 vicinity, not directly in front of me.

9 Q. What I should have asked you is you didn't see him get

10 his bloody nose?

11 A. But he had a bloody nose is correct, yes.

12 Q. Now I want to ask you about the allegation of the

13 tip-off.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We know of course there was a phone call from your home

16 to the Hanvey home at 8.37 on --

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. Were you aware before this was put to you

19 in September 1997 that the police were concerned about

20 that call?

21 A. Not really, no.

22 Q. At all?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was that the first --

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. -- intimation that you had had at all?

2 A. As far as I am aware, yes. I went over to be

3 interviewed as regards a complaint about neglected duty

4 and it was put to me there.

5 Q. Hm-mm. So your evidence, I take it, is this, is it:

6 that you went home and at some point told your wife

7 there had been some trouble involving the bus from the

8 Coach and --

9 A. I went home at 4-ish, got into bed, went to sleep. The

10 phone rang some time about six, I come back to work.

11 And obviously she heard the phone ringing. I hadn't

12 wakened her in the first incident. She said, "What's

13 happened?" I said, "There was trouble on the Coach bus

14 I have to go back down to work".

15 Q. And your evidence is you weren't aware of the phone call

16 being made at 8.37; is that right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you didn't make the call to warn Allister Hanvey?

19 A. I was in my bed sleeping.

20 Q. And when you then had this put to you in September 1997,

21 you went off sick the next day, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And never returned?

24 A. No, I think I returned.

25 Q. How long were you off sick for?

1 A. I just honestly don't know, but I was back at work,

2 I know that.

3 Q. Was it this allegation that made you go off sick?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What was it?

6 A. I was carrying two previous injuries.

7 Q. Why go off sick the day after this is put to you?

8 A. I didn't particularly go off sick because of it. I went

9 off sick because I was carrying two previous injuries,

10 which I had sustained on duty.

11 Q. Complete coincidence that it is the day after this

12 allegation first emerges?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did this allegation strike you?

15 A. Ludicrous.

16 Q. Worrying?

17 A. Of course.

18 Q. Did you think you were in trouble?

19 A. Well, any allegation is serious.

20 Q. Hm-mm. Compared with the allegation of not getting out

21 of the Land Rover, how did it strike you in terms of

22 serious?

23 A. Similar.

24 Q. Let's have a look at what Tracey Clarke told the police

25 in May. It is at page [17329]. This is her statement

1 to the police on 10 May, and if we pick up from about

2 halfway down, the second line here on the right-hand

3 side:

4 "I remember Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and

5 Allister said that Robbie Atkinson had been very good to

6 him because on the Sunday morning after the incident in

7 the town centre, he rang him at about 8.00 am and told him

8 to get rid of the clothes he was wearing the previous

9 night. Since then, Allister has contacted me on

10 numerous occasions and he keeps asking me what I have

11 said to the police. He also told me that

12 Robbie Atkinson was ringing him every day to keep him up

13 to date with the police investigation."

14 Now, on your evidence then either Mr Hanvey made

15 that up and told Tracey Clarke or Tracey Clarke made it

16 up, and in either event Tracey Clarke made that very

17 serious allegation to the police. Now, look at

18 Tracey Clarke for the moment. Do you know of any reason

19 why she would be out to get you then?

20 A. I don't, no.

21 Q. Allister Hanvey, any reason why he would be making an

22 allegation like that?

23 A. I haven't a clue. Now, as far as the allegations are

24 made, there is an allegation there that he was ringing

25 me every day. I have read the papers in this case until

1 I'm near blind reading them. I cannot find any evidence

2 anywhere that somebody is ringing me every day. It was

3 her made that allegation.

4 Q. The allegation is that you were ringing him every day,

5 as a matter of fact.

6 A. Well, well ... I think my phone records and all phone

7 records purporting to the case have been checked and

8 there is no sign of that anywhere.

9 Q. Did you ever use a public phone?

10 A. Where would I ring to?

11 Q. I'm just asking you whether --

12 A. No, but I'm asking you if I had to ring him where would

13 I ring him to? Would I ring him to his own home?

14 Q. Would you answer the question?

15 A. Did I ever use a public phone? Yes, I am sure I did,

16 many's the time.

17 Q. Yes. Now, if we look at Tracey Clarke's mother. If we

18 look at page [14897], this is the second page of

19 a statement she made on 1 November 2000. If we pick up

20 the second half of it, about halfway down this passage

21 on the right-hand side, there is a sentence that starts:

22 "Tracey was saying, 'Imagine telling him to burn

23 that good silver coat'. It cost Tracey £175.00 out of

24 Paranoid in High Street Mall. I don't know if it was in

25 the mall in 1997. Tracey knew a girl who worked in

1 Paranoid and she'd left the jacket over and Tracey was

2 paying weekly out of her pay so that Allister could have

3 it by Christmas 1996. This was a bright silver coat

4 with a black waistband and bright silver arms. Although

5 Tracey was annoyed at the coat having to be burnt and

6 went on about this, she also said that Robbie had told

7 him, that's Allister, to burn everything, trousers,

8 shirts, the lot."

9 So what we have got here is in 2000, Tracey Clarke's

10 mother telling the police that in 1997 Tracey was going

11 on about this coat and being upset that the result of

12 the alleged tip-off by you was that he had burned the

13 coat that she had bought him for Christmas. Do you

14 follow me?

15 A. Yes, I follow you.

16 Q. Again, can you help us with why Tracey Clarke's mother

17 would be making that up?

18 A. No, I have no reason to help you at all in that regard

19 because I don't know why that allegation has been made.

20 Q. And then if we go to page [17339], this is a statement

21 of Tracey Clarke's stepfather. It is made on

22 16 November 2000. He is called Jim Murray and, again,

23 the second half of this, top line, right-hand side:

24 "I remember after Tracey met Allister for lunch ..."

25 This is just after the 27th:

1 "... Tracey said that Allister felt quite proud of

2 what he'd one. This was after [somebody] had asked her

3 how she had got on with Allister.

5 Tracey also said that Allister said, 'Sure, he was

6 only a Fenian bastard' and that was the type of attitude

7 he had. Again, some time when I was sitting at the

8 kitchen table with Tracey, Tracey said she went over to

9 the back of the Land Rover to talk to Robert Atkinson."

10 That's not true, is it?

11 A. I don't recall talking to Tracey on the night at all.

12 Q. Okay:

13 "She said he told them, that's the ones on the

14 street and Allister, to go on and he told Allister to get

15 them clothes burnt."

16 So --

17 A. I didn't return to the Land Rover until I was going back

18 to the station from when I initially got out of it.

19 Q. You were there when you helped Constable A put Lunt in

20 it, weren't you?

21 A. Yes, I run back and threw him to it. That's it. But I

22 wasn't back in the Land Rover until the whole thing was

23 cleared up and we were going back to the station. So I

24 don't see that she could have come across and spoken to

25 me in the back of the Land Rover because I wasn't back

1 in it.

2 Q. If we go on then:

3 "Tracey said that she had been sitting on the kerb

4 and Atkinson was by himself at the back of the Land

5 Rover, so she went over to him and that's when she heard

6 him telling them to go and telling Allister to burn his

7 clothes. I was raging at Atkinson saying this to

8 Allister Hanvey if he had been involved in beating up

9 Robert Hamill."

10 A. A few minutes ago you have told me that I'm alleged to

11 have rang him and told him to burn his clothes and now

12 she is saying that I'm supposed to have said it at the

13 back of the Land Rover. Does she know, if this evidence

14 of hers is true, which is the case?

15 Q. Once we have got her here, she will tell us, but at the

16 moment the two allegations she has made are here and

17 that's what I'm putting to you.

18 A. I refute those allegations.

19 Q. Right. If we go over the page, [17340], about the last

20 third of it, this is his first-hand evidence of this.

21 About halfway down this on the right-hand side, there is

22 a sentence which starts:

23 "I also remember, although I don't know exactly when,

24 Tracey said Allister had got rid of the clothes and

25 burnt them. Tracey had bought him a silver jacket from

1 Paranoid for that Christmas, that's 1996, and I never saw

3 it after that Hamill incident.

4 The jacket was silver, like anorak material without the

5 lining in it. I remember the jacket had an orange

6 stripe on the sleeves. The jacket only came to his

7 waist and it looked too small for him."

8 So there you have got two people, do you see,

9 Tracey Clarke's mother and the stepfather, both

10 independently telling the police that she bought him

11 a silver jacket, it went missing and she was going

12 around raging about the destruction of it arising out of

13 the tip-off that you gave. Again, can you help us?

14 A. Arising out of a tip-off that it is alleged that I gave,

15 not that I gave. Mr Murray is again -- you are saying

16 this is first-hand evidence. He is passing on what,

17 allegedly, Tracey Clarke has told him. How can that be

18 first-hand evidence?

19 Q. That's your answer to his evidence to the police that he

20 saw the silver jacket and he saw that it had

21 disappeared; is that right?

22 A. You would need to ask Mr Murray about the silver jacket,

23 I know nothing about a silver jacket at all.

24 Q. So you have got no reason to offer the Panel for why

25 Tracey Clarke would pass this information on to the

1 police in May 1997; is that right?

2 A. I have no reason, no.

3 Q. And you have got no reason to offer to the Panel why

4 [Tracey's mother] and Jim Murray would say they had seen

5 such a jacket and that Tracey Clarke was moaning about

6 its destruction?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, let's go back to the allegation when it was made

9 against you on 9 September 1997. You told us that you

10 took it very seriously. Did you go and talk to your

11 wife immediately about it?

12 A. I obviously spoke to my wife about it, yes.

13 Q. The police didn't put your phone records to you, did

14 they, on 9 September?

15 A. No, they asked me to produce them.

16 Q. So did you talk to her before you found the phone

17 records?

18 A. Yes, I did, yes.

19 Q. So before you had a record of any such phone call being

20 made, what was her response?

21 A. I obviously just talked it over to her. I can't

22 remember exactly the circumstances I was speaking to her

23 about it. I told her there is an allegation been made

24 that I have phoned Hanvey's house.

25 Q. And you knew you hadn't made that call, didn't you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So did you ask her whether she had?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did she say?

5 A. She said no, she didn't. And I asked her could she

6 remember back if anybody did.

7 Q. And did she remember back?

8 A. She said that Michael McKee had phoned Hanveys.

9 Q. Right. So this is before you got the phone records?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So did you need to get the phone records?

12 A. I was requested by a detective superintendent, yes.

13 Q. Okay. And we know you went back on 9 October to be

14 interviewed again?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Between 9 September when this was first raised and

17 9 October when you went back, did you talk to either of

18 the McKees about this?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know how it was that your wife and both the

21 McKees came to give statements to the police about this?

22 A. I think -- I'm not sure of the actual -- how it came

23 about, but I think my solicitor requested.

24 Q. Why do that?

25 A. He obviously had been contacted by the police.

1 Q. How could the police know who your solicitor was?

2 Because he was at the interview?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So without reference to you, you think the police

5 contacted him to arrange alibi -- if we call it an

6 alibi -- alibi statements to be made, is that it?

7 A. I honestly can't recall how the statements came to be

8 made about -- but I know the police requested that they

9 be interviewed.

10 Q. And it is your evidence, is it then, that they gave

11 these statements to the police supporting your version

12 of the phone call without you talking to them about it

13 at all?

14 A. I spoke to my wife about it.

15 Q. Sorry, the McKees, I should make it clear?

16 A. I can't recall when I spoke to them, I don't know.

17 Q. In 1997, how regularly were you in touch with them?

18 A. Oh, depending when my daughter was at Tae Kwon Do.

19 Q. But you and Michael McKee were quite close friends,

20 weren't you?

21 A. I wouldn't say we were close friends but we did

22 socialise, yes.

23 Q. So between May of 1997 and October 1997 you would have

24 seen them quite regularly anyway, wouldn't you?

25 A. Yes, maybe once or twice a week.

1 Q. And between September 1997 and October 1997 equally you

2 would have seen them once or twice a week?

3 A. Once or twice a week maybe, just depending what shift I

4 was on.

5 Q. This was bound to have come up, wasn't it?

6 A. It was mentioned, yes.

7 Q. Between you first being interviewed and the time when

8 you gave this statement, you talked to them about it?

9 A. Well, I didn't sit down and -- I just said, "Look, this

10 phone call -- I can't recall actually what I said to

11 them, but I imagine I said Something like, "This phone

12 call that was made from my house, can you explain it?"

13 Q. Can you remember what their reaction was?

14 A. It was totally innocent, as far as I recollect.

15 Q. You see, Andrea McKee has told us that there was

16 a conversation, it was at your home and you asked

17 Michael McKee to cover for a phone call you had made.

18 A. That's not true.

19 Q. And in that conversation, according to Andrea McKee,

20 your wife was upset with you because you had helped out

21 the Hanveys?

22 A. That's not true. As we know, Andrea McKee has made five

23 different statements, all contradicting each other.

24 Q. Is that right? All five statements contradict each

25 other?

1 A. Well, from my reading of them anyway. I'm not a legal

2 brain.

3 Q. Why do you feel the need to tell us that?

4 A. Because you are telling me that Andrea McKee is saying

5 things about me.

6 Q. And can you offer any explanation then as to why the

7 McKees should choose to make false statements which then

8 give them prison sentences?

9 A. No, I cannot. You would need to ask the McKees that.

10 Q. Well, we have and the evidence Andrea McKee has given is

11 that her husband and her made false alibi statements to

12 help you out because Michael was a friend of yours, and

13 that eventually she told the truth and then so did

14 Michael. Then, in his case, he went to prison and, in

15 her case, to get a suspended prison sentence. That's

16 her evidence, that's what we've asked her about and

17 that's what she's said. The Panel have to make their

18 minds up whether to believe her or to believe you.

19 A. I understand that.

20 Q. Can you help us with why --

21 A. Going back to Andrea McKee and the statements she had

22 made, I was arraigned to go to the court appearance

23 where she didn't turn up. She gave an alibi that her

24 child was sick, which has since been proved that there

25 wasn't anything of it at all. In fact, she was telling

1 lies. So I would say that she just tells lies hand over

2 fist.

3 Q. Right. So what if the Panel found that she had told the

4 truth about her child being ill? Would that mean you

5 are lying?

6 A. No, I'm not lying.

7 Q. So she is lying about you -- ?

8 A. It has been well documented that she wasn't telling the

9 truth about her child, as I am sure you are aware.

10 Q. Her child wasn't ill, is that your -- ?

11 A. That's correct, it was in the papers. There is actually

12 several letters referring to it; one, I think, to

13 xxxxxxxxxx.

14 Q. We also know that on the night of 26/27 April, there is

15 reason to believe that Rodney Smyth and Joy Kitchen were

16 at the McKees' house and they have given evidence to the

17 effect that they didn't go there except when the McKees

18 were there. Do you know those two?

19 A. I do, yes.

20 Q. Were they liars too?

21 A. I didn't call them liars.

22 Q. When they came to give that evidence then, do you accept

23 that was true?

24 A. Did they give evidence to say that they were there on

25 that night?

100

1 Q. They did indeed.

2 A. That wasn't the reading I took in the transcripts.

3 Q. Oh, you take an interest in their evidence, have you?

4 A. No, I read the transcripts every day, naturally enough.

5 Q. Okay. So if the Panel concluded that their evidence was

6 to the effect that they were there that night, would you

7 say that was true evidence?

8 A. No, not necessarily.

9 Q. There is a taxi record to take Smith from the McKee home

10 that night into town. We know that they lived in town.

11 Any comment on that?

12 A. No, on my reading of that record, it hasn't been proved

13 that he took Smith into town.

14 Q. Okay. Then we understand that Michael McKee got

15 a bullet in the post on 5 December 2000 and a note

16 accompanied it telling him in effect to keep his mouth

17 shut. And what he told the police was that he rang you,

18 rang your home, to ask why the bullet had arrived and

19 that he got your wife who put the phone down on him. Do

20 you know anything about that?

21 A. I know he rang, yes, but I don't know why he rang me

22 about a bullet.

23 Q. Had you fallen out by that stage?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could it be because --

101

1 A. Are you accusing me of sending him a bullet?

2 Q. I'm just about to ask you a question. Could it be that

3 he knew and you knew that he had made a false alibi and

4 that in the middle of 2000, Andrea McKee cracked and

5 told the truth and he got a bullet in the post, he knew

6 not from whom, but he was worried it might be from you?

7 Is that why he rang you?

8 A. He was very foolish if he thought I would send him a

9 bullet. That is the last thing I would do to anyone. I

10 have been the brunt of a lot of intimidation and

11 I certainly wouldn't intimidate anyone.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Those are the questions I have, thank you

13 very much.

14 A. Thank you.

15 Questions from MR WOLFE

16 MR WOLFE: Good afternoon, Mr Atkinson. I'm asking some

17 questions on behalf of the PSNI.

18 A. Yes. What is your name, please?

19 Q. Wolfe.

20 A. Right, Mr Wolfe.

21 Q. You joined the Royal Ulster Constabulary in 1974; is

22 that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. When did you leave the RUC?

25 A. I'm not sure of the exact date. I did 28 and a half

102

1 years.

2 Q. Yes. All of your service was with the RUC; is that

3 correct?

4 A. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. And you would have known from all of your training and

6 all of your experience that the raison d'etre of a

7 police officer was to uphold the law?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And as part of that duty, you would know of course that

10 it is important for a police officer to bring

11 wrongdoers, to bring offenders to account?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And if it isn't possible to arrest a wrongdoer, it would

14 be the duty of a police officer to give up whatever

15 information that police officer would have about

16 a wrongdoer?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you would be aware, of course, that that duty

19 applies whether or not you know of or have any

20 relationship with the wrongdoer?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Mr Atkinson, during your service with the Royal Ulster

23 Constabulary is it fair to say that nobody in that

24 organisation would have given you any encouragement to

25 think that you could get away with assisting offenders?

103

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Indeed, you would be aware that the RUC would have been

3 intolerant of an officer who would assist offenders?

4 A. That's correct, sir.

5 Q. You are aware that ultimately, Mr Atkinson, the Police

6 Service of Northern Ireland believed that you were

7 guilty of assisting offenders?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And that they prepared a file for the Public Prosecution

10 Service?

11 A. That's correct.

12 MR WOLFE: Thank you.

13 Questions from MR ADAIR

14 MR ADAIR: I have just a few questions for you, Mr Atkinson.

15 In relation to the Land Rover that night, you know the

16 way you have told us that you thought there was a long

17 arm there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, I appear for the other officers in the Land Rover.

20 A. That's fine.

21 Q. Their recollection is that there wasn't a long arm that

22 night. I think I'm right in saying I don't think anyone

23 of them said there was a long arm. Could it be there

24 wasn't?

25 A. I would find that very strange.

104

1 Q. All right.

2 A. Very, very strange.

3 Q. Who looked after it when all of you were out of the Land

4 Rover?

5 A. Well, I had assumed that was [P40]

6 Q. Well, I think we are calling him P40. Are you saying

7 that if he had had the long arm that he actually would

8 have had it out on the street --

9 A. Yes, definitely, yes.

10 Q. Nobody has told us about anybody carrying a long arm out

11 on the street.

12 A. I would find it very, very strange --

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Including P40?

14 MR ADAIR: Yes.

15 A. I would find it very strange that any police vehicle

16 would be out at night without a long arm on board.

17 Q. I'm suggesting you are wrong about that?

18 A. I couldn't swear that there was a long arm in the

19 vehicle, but it would be a very, very strange thing not

20 to have one on the vehicle at night.

21 Q. Okay. The other thing I wanted to ask you about in

22 relation to that night, do you remember you were being

23 asked about the two men that came along?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You thought actually it was Robinson and Bridgett; is

105

1 that right?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And you described that between Cornett talking to them

4 and Neill being pulled out of the Land Rover, you

5 thought was three or four minutes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I'm suggesting to you that it was, if not instantaneously, ...

8 A. No, definitely not.

9 Q. Okay. Well, I'm suggesting to you that if it wasn't at

10 the same time as they were there, it was within seconds

11 of them being there?

12 A. No, definitely not. As far as I can recollect, they had

13 gone and then left the vehicle at the time.

14 Q. Okay. So what were you doing sitting there for three or

15 four minutes then?

16 A. Observing down the street.

17 Q. What did you observe?

18 A. Just people, normal Saturday night people coming home.

19 Q. Well, I'm not suggesting you are wrong about that. You

20 may have been mistaken about it just?

21 A. I'm not mistaken, no.

22 Q. Okay. We know then that you went back, and you have

23 told us you went back to the police station, you went

24 home, you were brought in and you made a statement and

25 then you went home again?

106

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember Detective Sergeant Bradley talking to

3 you on the Monday?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the Monday?

6 A. I'm not sure if it was Monday or Sunday. I'm not sure

7 if it was Monday or Sunday now.

8 Q. Okay. If we go to page [17573], please and if you just

9 highlight the bottom half of that page, please, this is

10 a statement that Detective Sergeant Bradley made, which

11 we assume he is going to give evidence in accordance

12 with, and it is dealing with his discussion with the

13 officers in the Land Rover and trying to get further

14 information from them.

15 A. Right, okay.

16 Q. Okay. In fact -- sorry -- could you just highlight the

17 whole page again? Do you see about five or six lines

18 down, if we start at the words just after the second

19 "P40 and Cornett first", would you highlight from there,

20 please? Well, he says that at some point he recalls you

21 telling him that you hadn't completed your written

22 statement and you left the room to go into the CID

23 office opposite to finish the statement. Could it be

24 that that's right?

25 A. My recollection is that the statement that I signed, he

107

1 signed it on the day that I give it to him. So if you

2 look that up, it will tell you.

3 Q. You can see that this was on the 28th that he was

4 talking to him?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. But in any event, you will see then further on down the

7 page, about halfway down, where it says:

8 "Reserve Constable Atkinson ..."

9 Do you see that:

10 "... handed me his statement ..."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "... and I examined the content of the statement with

14 him. I recall pointing out to Reserve

15 Constable Atkinson that he had only identified two

16 persons, Rory Robinson and Wayne Lunt. I pointed out to

17 Reserve Constable Atkinson that he had served in

18 Portadown for many years and lived locally and that he

19 was bound to be able to identify more persons who were

20 possibly involved."

21 Do you remember him putting that to you?

22 A. I don't recall that, no.

23 Q. Do you accept he put that to you?

24 A. I couldn't say if he did or not, I don't recall it.

25 Again, I go back to the point, my statement is bound to

108

1 be there and I signed it and dated it.

2 Q. Whenever the statement was made or whenever it was

3 dated, do you accept that Detective Sergeant Bradley --

4 it looks from this -- clearly didn't believe that you

5 weren't able to identify more people than you had in

6 your statement?

7 A. No, I don't accept that at all.

8 Q. And put it to you, said to you, "You are bound to know

9 more people. You are a local man, you live in

10 Portadown, these are locals"?

11 A. I don't accept that at all. Again, when did he accept

12 my statement?

13 Q. Don't worry about the date.

14 A. I'm entitled to have a look at the statement.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: It doesn't matter what the date of the

16 statement is. What you are being asked about is what

17 Detective Sergeant Bradley said concerning it.

18 A. Yes, Mr Chairman --

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Then just listen, please, to Mr Adair's

20 questions and answer them.

21 MR ADAIR: You remember Bradley talking to you?

22 A. I remember speaking to Detective Sergeant Bradley.

23 Q. So is the answer yes?

24 A. If you let me finish, please. I can't recall if it was

25 in Michael Irwin's office or not.

109

1 Q. What does it matter in whose office it was in? Do you

2 remember speaking to Bradley?

3 A. I remember speaking to him. I don't remember that

4 conversation taking place.

5 Q. Do you remember him going through your statement with

6 you?

7 A. No, I remember handing my statement to him. I don't

8 remember that taking place.

9 Q. Do you remember him asking you about the contents of

10 your statement?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So would he just literally take your statement from

13 you --

14 A. As far as my recollection is, he took my statement off

15 me and he said something like, "If there is anything

16 else you can remember, let me know".

17 Q. And you did remember more?

18 A. I told him a couple of more names then, in a couple of

19 more days I think or the next day.

20 Q. Well, according to Mr Bradley, if you read on in the

21 statement, where, after he had indicated to you that you

22 were bound to know and be able to identify more persons:

23 "As a result of that being put to him, Reserve

24 Constable Atkinson then gave me two further pieces of

25 information, which I recorded."

110

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So it was there and then you told him, wasn't it?

3 A. I'm not sure. That's his wording of it, I'm not sure.

4 I am of the opinion it was maybe a day later.

5 Q. You don't remember him obviously being totally sceptical

6 about you --

7 A. I don't, no.

8 Q. -- and your ability to identify more people at this

9 scene?

10 A. Definitely not.

11 Q. Now, you have told us you have had a very long career

12 with the RUC; is that right?

13 A. 28 and a half years.

14 Q. And you served with some very fine men; isn't that

15 right?

16 A. I did indeed.

17 Q. I'm not going to go through with you, Mr Atkinson, the

18 various matters Mr Underwood has put. Do you understand

19 me?

20 A. I understand.

21 Q. I just want to put to you that you are a disgrace to the

22 name of the RUC. Do you understand?

23 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.

24 Q. I want to put to you that those who I represent, a

25 substantial number of policemen, regard you, if these

111

1 allegations are true, as a disgrace to the name of the

2 RUC. Do you understand in clear terms --

3 A. I understand in clear terms what you are saying, yes.

4 MR ADAIR: Thank you.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: This is a good time to break off until

6 2 o'clock.

7 MR McGRORY: I should put you on notice that Mr Underwood

8 mentioned to me at the commencement of the day that if I

9 wanted to touch on a certain issue, I would need to make

10 an application about that. I do wish to touch on that

11 issue, so I would need to make an application at some

12 point when we recommence. So I leave it in your hands.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be convenient, Mr Underwood, to do

14 it now so we don't lose time later?

15 MR UNDERWOOD: It would be, but I'm not sure if the

16 technology is available. At the moment we are treating

17 this as a screened issue and I'm not sure if it is

18 a topic that needs to be touched on in private. I am in

19 my friend's hands.

20 MR McGRORY: I think it might be.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: What we will do, we will break off until

22 2 o'clock, but if the arrangements for a private hearing

23 could be ready then.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, thank you very much.

25 (1.00 pm)

112

1 (The short adjournment)

2 (3.00 pm)

3 (In camera)

4 (3.29 pm)

5 MR ROBERT ATKINSON (continued)

6 Questions from MR McGRORY

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

8 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir. Mr Atkinson, my name is

9 McGrory and I want to ask you some questions on behalf

10 of the family of Robert Hamill.

11 A. Yes, Mr McGrory.

12 Q. I just want to take you back to the night of 26 April

13 and morning of 27 April 1997. You came home after your

14 tour of duty around about what time?

15 A. I think it was about 4 o'clock.

16 Q. You were rostered to work until three; isn't that right?

17 Can you remember?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. It is neither here nor there. You finished work at four

20 anyway?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And then you came home, and how was the house? Was

23 everything quiet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Everybody was in bed?

113

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You wouldn't have taken a look in to see your daughter

3 at all?

4 A. No, I was straight into bed.

5 Q. Did you speak to your wife?

6 A. No, I didn't wake her.

7 Q. You didn't speak to her at all?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Then you get a phone call; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was said to you in the phone call?

12 A. Just that I needed to come back into the station.

13 Q. And you got up and you went in?

14 A. Yes, and I told my wife I was going back to work.

15 Q. Did you tell her why you were going back to work?

16 A. I passed some remark to her about there had been an

17 incident with the Coach bus.

18 Q. Yes. No more than that?

19 A. No more than that.

20 Q. Did she wake up when the phone rang, did she?

21 A. Well, I assume so because she was waken when I come

22 off the phone.

23 Q. She wanted to know where you were going?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you put your uniform on?

114

1 A. I don't recall.

2 Q. Would it have been your practice to dress in the

3 house --

4 A. No.

5 Q. So you kept your uniform in the barracks?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you would have gone in --

8 A. I may have had my shirt on, but I wouldn't have had --

9 Q. So you would have gone back into the barracks when you

10 got the call after six. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In civvies?

13 A. Yes, more or less.

14 Q. Would you have needed to change into your uniform for

15 that purpose at that time, when you went in?

16 A. Depending what I had been asked to do, yes.

17 Q. Can you remember, did you?

18 A. I can't recall, no.

19 Q. So let's paint the pictured in the station now. It is

20 after 6 am, you have been called back in. You had gone

21 home at 4 o'clock. There had been the incident and as

22 far as you were concerned, that had been the end of the

23 matter for a while?

24 A. Yes, for that night anyway.

25 Q. But then you start to learn things when you go back to

115

1 the police station at six in the morning, more things

2 about the incident. Isn't that right?

3 A. Well, I was just told that I was required to make

4 a statement.

5 Q. Yes, but there would be a reason why you were required

6 to make a statement, why you were brought back in; isn't

7 that right?

8 A. Well, yes.

9 Q. I can help you with what that reason might be: that this

10 now was turning out to be a more serious incident than

11 had been perhaps first thought?

12 A. That would be correct.

13 Q. In that certainly one of the victims at least was quite

14 seriously injured?

15 A. Yes, I wasn't aware of the seriousness of it, but I knew

16 that that was the reason I was called back.

17 Q. Yes, well, you weren't called back routinely, sure you

18 weren't?

19 A. Oh, no.

20 Q. Obviously you were called back because people were

21 thinking, "This is a more serious incident. We need

22 statements and we need them now"?

23 A. More or less, yes.

24 Q. And you obviously would have been told by somebody in

25 seniority that, "Look, one of these people is seriously

116

1 injured"?

2 A. No, I was speaking to, I think it was, Detective

3 Constable Keys.

4 Q. Yes. Did he not say to you, "Look, one of these chaps

5 is badly injured"?

6 A. I don't recall what he said to me other than he required

7 a statement.

8 Q. Would he have made you aware that one of the injured in

9 fact had been taken to the Royal Victoria Hospital in

10 Belfast?

11 A. No, I don't recall him saying that, no.

12 Q. But you at least knew, of course, that one of the

13 individuals was unconscious when they were taken away in

14 the ambulance?

15 A. As far as I was concerned, they both were.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And so Detective Constable Keys, did he leave you

19 entirely to your own devices to write a statement or did

20 he ask you any questions?

21 A. No, he just left me to my own devices.

22 Q. Were there others present, the others in the Land Rover?

23 A. At that stage, no, I was the nearest to the station, I

24 was the first in.

25 Q. And were constables -- well, Constable P40 was one of

117

1 the other male constables?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And there is Constable Neill?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And then there is a woman constable as well?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. We know that Constable Neill hadn't returned at this

8 point?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But the others came back around about this time?

11 A. Yes, I do believe Constable Neill lived a further

12 distance away.

13 Q. Did you have conversation with P40 and the female

14 constable when they returned?

15 A. I don't recall having a conversation with them, no.

16 Q. You didn't say, "Did you see this, did you see that?"

17 A. No, I just made out my own statement and put it in the

18 CID pigeonhole.

19 Q. And nobody asked you any questions about it at all?

20 A. No.

21 Q. DC Keys didn't read over the statement at this time?

22 A. I'm not sure he was even in the station. I think he

23 had gone out when I finished my statement.

24 Q. It was DC Godly who phoned you to come back; isn't that

25 right?

118

1 A. Yes, I think so.

2 Q. Did you tell him you were leaving when you finished?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you had a brief conversation with Keys; is that

5 right?

6 A. When I arrived in the station, yes.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I think -- from what I can recall, he went out to make

9 sure the scene was secure or something.

10 Q. Yes, and no other police inspector or police sergeant,

11 perhaps from the uniformed section, spoke to you at that

12 time?

13 A. I can't recall, no.

14 Q. And you had no conversation with anybody before you had

15 gone home initially at 4 am?

16 A. No, not that I can recall, no.

17 Q. Have you heard of this term "debriefing"?

18 A. I have indeed.

19 Q. It has been the subject of some controversy in these

20 proceedings, as you will appreciate.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you ever had a debriefing before after an incident?

23 A. Many times.

24 Q. Many times. Tell us what a debriefing was?

25 A. Those on duty would have been taken into the briefing

119

1 room and sort of asked what had taken place when they

2 were stood down to go home.

3 Q. Was that almost routine after every tour of duty or only

4 if there was an incident?

5 A. It just depends what situation you were in. From what I

6 can recollect, the duty sergeant and the duty inspector

7 were still out on the ground at the time that we

8 terminated. That's my recollection of it.

9 Q. So would you have expected to have had a debriefing?

10 A. If they had have been in the station, yes.

11 Q. So did you fill out your notebook then independently

12 before you went home, or did you leave it until later?

13 A. I can't recall.

14 Q. So really what you are telling us, Mr Atkinson, is that

15 there was no form of debriefing at all, either on the

16 first occasion, before you went out, or on the second

17 occasion?

18 A. That would be correct.

19 Q. Not until you were spoken to by Sergeant Bradley on the

20 Monday. Did you have anything akin to an exchange with

21 another police officer as to what might have happened?

22 A. I can't recall. It was Monday the 28th; is that right?

23 Q. Yes --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you speak to anyone between putting the statement in

120

1 the pigeonhole and going home on the morning of the

2 27th and then speaking to --

3 A. Aye, I spoke to Constable Neill on the phone and told

4 him I had left my statement in the pigeonhole.

5 Q. Yes. Just tell us about that now. You remember

6 speaking to Constable Neill on the phone?

7 A. I did, yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the circumstances of

9 how you came to be speaking to him?

10 A. I can't really recall. All I remember was someone had

11 asked was -- he was coming in and I gave him a ring and

12 said, "Look, I have left my statement in the pigeonhole

13 and are you coming in". That was it.

14 Q. Why would you have wanted him to know where your

15 statement was?

16 A. There was no one there to tell us where to leave the

17 statements and I just told them they had to be left in

18 the CID pigeonhole.

19 Q. What was that to do with Constable Neill? Presumably

20 you want to get it to CID?

21 A. It was the CID pigeonhole. I just informed

22 Constable Neill that he had to leave his statement in

23 the CID pigeonhole.

24 Q. I thought you were telling him that you had left --

25 A. Yes, I had left my statement in the CID pigeonhole and

121

1 that's where he was to leave his.

2 Q. So I maybe misunderstood you that the purpose of you

3 speaking to him was to tell him that your statement was

4 there?

5 A. I told him he had to leave his own there as well, that

6 all statements had to be left for CID.

7 Q. What about the woman constable and P40? Were their

8 statements there at that stage?

9 A. I can't recall if they were there at that time. I think

10 mine was the first one in the pigeonhole.

11 Q. Were you not making your statement in a room with them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No. You were entirely on your own?

14 A. I'm not sure where I sat to write it. I sat somewhere

15 in the station obviously, but I'm not sure what room I

16 was in.

17 Q. Now, after the conversation with Constable Neill on the

18 telephone, what then did you do?

19 A. I just went home.

20 Q. You went home? Where would you have parked?

21 A. Just directly outside the station.

22 Q. So how far is it from the station to your house?

23 A. It is 1.4 miles.

24 Q. Yes, yes. It is a very precise figure?

25 A. Not really.

122

1 Q. Do you have any reason why you have it at 1.4?

2 A. Well, you used to be allowed to claim mileage.

3 Q. And so you would have driven up home and you would have

4 parked close by your house?

5 A. Straight in the drive.

6 Q. Straight in the drive. And that would have taken, what,

7 five minutes, 10 minutes?

8 A. Not even that.

9 Q. Not even that. So you would have gone in home, and did

10 you go straight to bed or what happened?

11 A. Straight into bed, yes.

12 Q. And the house was quiet at that point?

13 A. It was.

14 Q. So you were straight into bed, and was your wife up or

15 was she awake?

16 A. I think I wakened her when I went in just.

17 Q. Any more conversation with her at that point?

18 A. Not really, no. I think I just went in and went to

19 sleep. I had been up from the previous morning at

20 8 o'clock.

21 Q. Yes. Did she tell that you the McKees were in the

22 house?

23 A. I can't recall that, no.

24 Q. And had she told you that the McKees were in the house,

25 would that have been an unusual event?

123

1 A. Not really, no.

2 Q. So did they stay with you often?

3 A. Frequently -- quite frequently, maybe once a month.

4 Q. Quite frequently, maybe once a month. Now, you had

5 developed a relationship with these people over quite

6 a number of years; would that be right?

7 A. It would be fair enough, yes.

8 Q. In fact from maybe around 1990?

9 A. Not really as early as that, no.

10 Q. Yes. Well, your daughter was 11 in 1997; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. Just between 11 and 12.

13 Q. And she had been doing Tae Kwon Do since she was about

14 four or five. So you would at least have been

15 associated with the Tae Kwon Do club for maybe six or

16 seven years?

17 A. Yes, six years, really.

18 Q. And Michael McKee of course ran the club?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And he ran it out of a premises very close to your

21 house?

22 A. About 400/500 yards, yes.

23 Q. And that premises was owned by Bobby Jameson?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And of course you had a fairly close association with

124

1 Bobby Jameson, had you not?

2 A. I worked with him, yes.

3 Q. You in fact were his police driver for quite a while?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And when Michael McKee needed a new premises for his Tae

6 Kwon Do club, was it you who suggested that

7 Bobby Jameson might have somewhere?

8 A. No, he had already brokered a deal with Bobby Jameson.

9 I had nothing to do with it.

10 Q. Nothing whatsoever?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I think I may stand to be corrected, but I think

13 Andrea McKee told us that it was her understanding that

14 you and her fixed Michael up?

15 A. That may be have been, but I was actually surprised when

16 he told me he was going to because I didn't think he

17 could afford it.

18 Q. Just going back for a moment to you going back into the

19 house, your wife, you woke her up when you were coming

20 in and she doesn't say Andrea and Michael stayed over?

21 A. I can't recall her saying it to me, no.

22 Q. But she got up and she went downstairs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You see, she went downstairs then to make their

25 breakfast basically?

125

1 A. Well, I don't know what she did but she got up and left

2 me -- I was going back to work for 3 or 4 o'clock again.

3 Q. Yes, so you went out for the count?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Fast asleep. What time do you think that was?

6 A. I would say it was maybe quarter past eight or shortly

7 after.

8 Q. You see, by 8.37 this phone call has been made from your

9 house to the Hanveys'?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You are aware of all that, of course. And there would

12 have been plenty of opportunity for Michael McKee or

13 your wife to come up to your room and say, "What did

14 actually happen down the town?"

15 A. Well, I wasn't -- I was in bed as soon as I came home

16 and went to sleep.

17 Q. In fact there is no reason why you couldn't have

18 answered those question, sure there isn't, had you been

19 asked?

20 A. But I wasn't asked.

21 Q. Because you had a lot of information about what

22 happened?

23 A. Yes, I wasn't particularly -- my main object was to get

24 to bed and get to my sleep.

25 Q. Do you not think it's odd that Michael McKee and

126

1 Andrea McKee are in your house, and the story is now

2 that they were worried about their niece, and that

3 nobody asked you, "Did you see Tracey?"

4 A. Nobody asked me anything, I was sleeping.

5 Q. I'm going to suggest to you, Mr Atkinson, that you

6 weren't asleep at 8.37?

7 A. Well, you can suggest if you like, but I know I was.

8 Q. By the time you got in from the police station, it would

9 have been at least a quarter past eight if not a little

10 bit after it, at the very least?

11 A. I have already said a quarter past.

12 Q. That the McKees weren't there, that there was nobody

13 there but your wife and your daughter?

14 A. No, that's not correct.

15 Q. Because you see your wife has told us that she thought

16 you were asleep by eight o'clock?

17 A. I'm sure she wasn't looking at the clock.

18 Q. And because not long after eight she said she was up and

19 about and making at least tea for her guests?

20 A. At the time, the time wasn't relevant to any of the two

21 of us.

22 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Atkinson, we have got slightly

23 different times from you and your wife?

24 A. That's quite possible. I really didn't look at the

25 clock and I'm sure she didn't.

127

1 Q. If you are not in until quarter past eight, Mr Atkinson,

2 the McKees are probably already up and about?

3 A. There was no one up in my house when I arrived home.

4 Q. But you would have bumped into them in your kitchen?

5 A. If they had have been in the kitchen, yes, but there was

6 nobody in the kitchen. I went into the house, the

7 upstairs doors were all closed. I opened my own bedroom

8 door, went into my bed and got into it.

9 Q. They weren't in the kitchen, Mr Atkinson, because they

10 weren't there?

11 A. I don't agree with you.

12 Q. I want to ask you just about joining the police. You

13 joined back in the 1970s; is that right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. The police reserve. Can I just have page 9 of your

16 Inquiry transcript on the screen, please. Perhaps we

17 could try the next page. I have a page 9 which is

18 slightly different. The pagination may be slightly

19 different, but I just want to talk to you about an

20 answer that you gave the Inquiry about why you joined

21 the police. Before I do that, maybe you will tell us

22 why you did join the reserves back in the 1970s?

23 A. Because I thought it was a worthwhile thing to do.

24 Q. You said that basically there weren't enough police in

25 this country to police the situation that we were in?

128

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. We were in a situation in the 1970s of some turmoil;

3 isn't that right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And you told them then that the powers that be recruited

6 those who were like-minded to join the police?

7 A. It is not in front of me here.

8 Q. No, no, but I am afraid my pagination is slightly

9 different --

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I thought I saw something on page 9 of that.

11 MR McGRORY: I have it at the very top of page 9.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: We have got page 11 up at the moment.

13 MR McGRORY: I think it is 11 at the minute, sorry.

14 A little bit before that, sorry.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it the middle of the page that came up

16 then:

17 "Just to help the community."

18 Page 9?

19 MR McGRORY: Go back to page 9, please?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You have gone too far.

21 MR McGRORY: It is a little bit before. Page 8, please.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: There it is:

23 "What made you join?

24 "Answer: Just to help the community."

25 MR McGRORY: Can we go back to page 8, please? Yes, sorry,

129

1 the bottom of page 8, thank you. Now:

2 "When basically there wasn't enough police in this

3 country to police the situation we were in, and the

4 powers that be recruited those who were like-minded to

5 join the police on short term, three-year contracts."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. That's correct, yes.

8 Q. What do you mean by "like-minded"?

9 A. Who wanted to join for three years.

10 Q. But you say "like-minded". Just wanted to join the

11 police to help the situation?

12 A. More or less, yes.

13 Q. This is the situation where the regular police force was

14 coming under significant attack from terrorist groups;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. They just hadn't enough men.

17 Q. But when you say "like-minded" do you mean people who

18 just wanted to do their civic duty and join the police

19 because of the situation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So when you joined the police reserves in the 1970s, you

22 saw yourself as someone who was joining up to help with

23 the situation of conflict?

24 A. More or less, yes.

25 Q. Now, in terms of how that affected your life within your

130

1 own community, did that make any significant difference

2 in the 1970s?

3 A. Not really, no.

4 Q. No. Because as a reservist of course, you weren't like

5 an ordinary police constable, you weren't out arresting

6 people on a day and daily basis for, say, robberies or

7 burglaries or anything like that?

8 A. Depending what duty you were detailed to do. Some

9 full-time reserves were detailed security duties and

10 there were some detailed beat and patrol.

11 Q. Yes, indeed.

12 A. And I was detailed beat and patrol in Tandragee.

13 Q. Would that have brought you into the situation where you

14 were doing public order duties.?

15 A. Not really in Tandragee, but occasionally we would have

16 been called into Portadown to do things like that.

17 Q. What sort of public order duties?

18 A. Football matches et cetera.

19 Q. And then of course you were detailed as a driver for

20 Mr Jameson at some point?

21 A. That was much later.

22 Q. But would you have found yourself in a situation where

23 you were policing people you knew in the 1970s?

24 A. I had been stationed in Tandragee and Banbridge which

25 weren't my locality, and then later on I was in the DMSU

131

1 in Banbridge and we sort of served the South Down area.

2 So I wasn't really in my own locality, no.

3 Q. I suppose in the DMSU there is a certain amount of -- to

4 use a word that we have used a lot here -- anonymity in

5 the sense that you are not policing your neighbours and

6 people in Portadown on a daily basis?

7 A. That would be correct. We very rarely did work in

8 Portadown.

9 Q. But then things changed, didn't they, Mr Atkinson, in

10 the late 1980s?

11 A. Yes, there was a few problems with parades in Portadown

12 and I ended up working on it, yes.

13 Q. There was an agreement between the British and Irish

14 governments in 1986 called the Anglo-Irish Agreement;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And one of the consequences of that coming together of

18 the two governments was a change in attitude about

19 parades in Portadown; isn't that right?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And indeed the police had to stop certain Loyalist

22 parades from going through the Tunnel in Portadown?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And you were one of those officers who was detailed

25 there?

132

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And that was difficult for you, wasn't it?

3 A. I just performed my duty like everybody else. I had to.

4 We did what we were told.

5 Q. But can I suggest that maybe for the first time now you

6 are being pitted against those whom you might have

7 known?

8 A. It would be fair to say, yes.

9 Q. Indeed, they would have been people from within your

10 community, neighbours, people with whom you associated

11 socially and so forth, who were amongst those who were

12 wanting to march through the tunnel?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. But you did what you had to do?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Did you arrest any of those people?

17 A. I did, yes.

18 Q. Did that cause you some personal grief?

19 A. Not any personal grief, no. I just did my job.

20 Q. But did the fact that you did your job not make you

21 particularly unpopular within your community?

22 A. I wasn't there to be popular, I was just there to do my

23 job.

24 Q. That's a separate issue. Didn't it make you unpopular?

25 A. It all depends who you are talking about. Some people

133

1 it didn't annoy and other people of course it did, yes.

2 Q. Some people it did annoy, didn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And your wife has told us about the fact that your house

5 was attacked?

6 A. Many times, yes.

7 Q. Would that be as a consequence of you policing parades

8 in Portadown?

9 A. I would say you are right, yes.

10 Q. So it did cause you some grief?

11 A. At home, yes.

12 Q. Yes. And it would have been a worry, wouldn't it?

13 A. Yes, they were worrying times at that time, all right,

14 yes.

15 Q. But you had children?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You would have been worried about their safety?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Now, the Hanvey family were known to you, were they not?

20 A. In what respect?

21 Q. By at least the 1990s?

22 A. I knew Allister from the Tae Kwon Do and I had played

23 football years before with his father.

24 Q. Now, he has told us that he has played football with you

25 and he didn't have much to do with you after that?

134

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. But he has also told us that he was one of those people

3 who was unhappy about you policing the Tunnel, the

4 marches through the Tunnel in the 1980s.

5 A. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have nothing

6 to do with what he decided.

7 Q. And of course you would have been aware that your wife

8 and he worked together for Northern Ireland Electricity

9 in Portadown?

10 A. I was aware he worked there, yes.

11 Q. And she has told us she had contact with him several

12 times a week?

13 A. I'm not sure, but I assume that's what happened, yes.

14 Q. Is that not one of those situations, Mr Atkinson, where

15 someone within your community, who is connected to you

16 in some way or another, was unhappy about your

17 activities as a policeman?

18 A. Well, he was entitled to his own opinion.

19 Q. Were you aware of his opinions?

20 A. He didn't make them known to me, no.

21 Q. Are you sure he didn't make them known to you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then of course you got to know his son?

24 A. That's correct, yes.

25 Q. You became associated with Michael McKee in the Tae

135

1 Kwon Do?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. In fact you became secretary of the Tae Kwon Do?

4 A. No, that's not correct.

5 Q. Is that not correct?

6 A. No, I was secretary of the Tae Kwon Do recreation club,

7 which is a separate entity altogether.

8 Q. Right. Would you explain the difference, please?

9 A. Yes, the Tae Kwon Do club was run by Michael and

10 Andrea McKee as a working venture in which they achieved

11 their salary, et cetera. Michael had a few problems

12 with drinking and a few of the parents got together and

13 decided that for going away on trips and for buying

14 trophies and things, we would form a recreation club to

15 facilitate this.

16 Q. And when did you do that?

17 A. I couldn't be sure of the exact date now.

18 Q. And that would have been because you and others were

19 worried that the activity of Tae Kwon Do, which had

20 built up in Portadown, might cease?

21 A. We had built a very strong club and that, and the kids

22 were doing very well in competitions and things they

23 went to. And on one particular date, Michael, he

24 organised a competition in -- I think it is the Lagan

25 Valley Leisure Centre and there is quite a few guys came

136

1 up from Southern Ireland and Michael was supposed to pay

2 them for doing judging and helping out on the day and

3 doing patterns and grades and things. And the bit --

4 when it come to the bit, there was no money to pay them.

5 So after that, the parents rallied round and said,

6 right, we will take this in hand ourselves and try and

7 organise that ourselves. So what's what we did.

8 Q. You said, "We had built up a very strong club in

9 Portadown"?

10 A. As a combined group.

11 Q. Yes, and you would have been one of those parents who

12 took a keen interest in the club?

13 A. Yes, all the parents were very keen on their children

14 doing well.

15 Q. So whether you were secretary of that particular club or

16 the subsequent organisation you set up, you were still

17 someone who was very much involved in the Tae Kwon Do

18 club run by Michael McKee?

19 A. All I did was organise transport and hotels and things

20 whenever we went away on trips.

21 Q. I would suggest to you, Mr Atkinson, that that's pretty

22 involved?

23 A. I didn't say it was a big thing.

24 Q. Of course, the Tae Kwon Do that had been painstakingly

25 built up over a number of years had one big star,

137

1 hadn't it?

2 A. No, I wouldn't say that.

3 Q. Well, it had Allister Hanvey?

4 A. Yes, he was quite good, yes.

5 Q. He was more than quite good, wasn't he?

6 A. It depends what you mean.

7 Q. He was the first black belt, wasn't he?

8 A. He was the first black belt in that club, yes, but there

9 were many more after him.

10 Q. Your daughter was one of them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact he helped your daughter?

13 A. He did. As the children all progressed, the higher

14 belts all helped the lower belts right along through.

15 Q. That's right. And he in fact was quite successful in

16 world championships?

17 A. That was prior to us joining the club.

18 Q. He was a silver medallist or something?

19 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.

20 Q. So I'm suggesting to you, Mr Atkinson, that you are

21 pretty involved with this club?

22 A. No more so than any of the rest of the parents, no.

23 Q. But you were involved with it enough to maybe be in

24 contact with the McKees two or three times a week?

25 A. Sometimes I would have saw them two or three times,

138

1 sometimes I wouldn't have saw them at all. It just

2 depended on what my work pattern was.

3 Q. They were regular callers to your house?

4 A. They called occasionally, yes.

5 Q. They called more than occasionally according to your

6 wife?

7 A. It depends what you mean by occasionally.

8 Q. Did they stay over more than occasionally?

9 A. They stayed over quite a few times, yes.

10 Q. I take it you don't open your house to anybody,

11 Mr Atkinson?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So I'm suggesting to you that this is a pretty close

14 relationship between you, your wife and the McKees?

15 A. We were just friendly with them, socially.

16 Q. The fact that they stayed over regularly according to

17 you?

18 A. I wouldn't say regularly, no.

19 Q. I'm also suggesting to you that Allister Hanvey was well

20 known to you?

21 A. I knew Allister Hanvey, yes.

22 Q. Well known?

23 A. I have never denied that I know him.

24 Q. Did you also know that your wife worked with his father?

25 A. I was aware of that, yes. I have already said that.

139

1 Q. And of course, Drumcree comes along, doesn't it, in the

2 1990s, as if things hadn't been bad enough?

3 A. It was no worse than the previous years.

4 Q. No, but you had the trouble in the 1980s with the

5 Tunnel; isn't that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And it had died down a bit then, hadn't it?

8 A. You could say that, for a couple of years, yes.

9 Q. And the attacks on your homes, did they happen after the

10 Tunnel or Drumcree?

11 A. Both.

12 Q. Both. So Drumcree comes along and here we are again,

13 you are a reserve constable who joined the force and you

14 find yourself policing your own community, your local

15 community?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. You are not in Banbridge in DMSUs, you are not on

18 driving duty for Bobby Jameson, this time you are down

19 there at Drumcree?

20 A. I wasn't at Drumcree, no.

21 Q. You were not at Drumcree at all?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What is the Mahon Road?

24 A. By the time Drumcree came around, I wasn't stationed in

25 the DMSU.

140

1 Q. So you weren't sent to Drumcree at all?

2 A. I wasn't near Drumcree.

3 Q. What is the Mahon Road?

4 A. It was an army camp.

5 Q. It is an army camp?

6 A. Army/RUC combined barracks.

7 Q. Did you have to go there at times, did you?

8 A. I was in there at times, yes.

9 Q. Now, come around the July period every year, especially

10 around Drumcree, tensions rose within the community,

11 didn't they?

12 A. That's right, yes.

13 Q. We have also heard evidence from more than Mr Hanvey

14 that you had a reputation in the community. Do you know

15 a guy called Blevins?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He said you had a reputation for arresting -- you would

18 arrest your own mother?

19 A. I just arrested anybody that I came across in the line

20 of duty who needed arresting. I didn't know who they

21 were. If they were breaking the law, I arrested them.

22 Q. And did you yourself have any issues with the Orange

23 Order or anything of that kind?

24 A. What do you mean by issues?

25 Q. Were you a member of the Orange Order by any chance?

141

1 A. I wasn't, no.

2 Q. Would you have had any cause on 12 July to march

3 yourself?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Or attend any demonstrations?

6 A. I may have gone down the street to look -- if I hadn't

7 been working, yes, I may have gone down the street to

8 watch the parade.

9 Q. Would you ever have gone to the meetings on 12th July

10 after the parades?

11 A. No, what would I have gone there for? I wasn't

12 a member.

13 Q. Well, the Orange Order would have had marches and it

14 would have converged on a field or something, where

15 there were speeches and so forth.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Sort of demonstrations?

18 A. No, the only recollection I have is when xxxxxxxxxx was

19 a baby in the pram, I think it was. I wasn't working

20 and we walked the length of Carleton Street and watched

21 the parade and walked home again.

22 Q. Would there have been demonstrations in Keady in

23 County Armagh at all?

24 A. There could be, yes.

25 Q. Would you have attended any of those?

142

1 A. In recent years since I left the police, yes.

2 Q. In recent years?

3 A. Since I left the police, yes.

4 Q. Tell us about them in recent years. What were the

5 demonstrations about?

6 A. You are bound to be aware of what the normal annual

7 12 July demonstrations is about.

8 Q. It is a gathering of Orangemen; isn't that correct?

9 A. Of course that's correct.

10 Q. Would you attend them as a member of the Orange Order?

11 A. At the moment, yes.

12 Q. Were you a member of the Orange Order back in 1997?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When did you join?

15 A. I think three years past.

16 Q. Only three years ago you joined the Orange Order?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The Orange Order has a view on Drumcree, doesn't it?

19 A. They have their own particular view, yes.

20 Q. And do you share that view?

21 A. No. I'm not involved with Portadown district, I don't

22 belong to a lodge in Portadown.

23 Q. Where are you a member?

24 A. In Loughgall.

25 Q. Loughgall, County Armagh?

143

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you a member of any other organisation?

3 A. I am, yes.

4 Q. Are you a member of the freemasons?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Were you a member of the freemasons back there?

7 A. I was, yes.

8 Q. Was that lodge 409, Armagh?

9 A. No, it was not, no.

10 Q. What lodge was that?

11 A. 263.

12 Q. What county?

13 A. Tandragee.

14 Q. What county is that?

15 A. Armagh.

16 Q. How many masonic lodges are there in County Armagh?

17 A. I wouldn't know, I haven't a clue.

18 Q. What does the masonic order do when it meets?

19 A. In what respects?

20 Q. Any respects.

21 A. It is a charitable organisation which gives funds to

22 worthy causes like Alzheimer's and things like that.

23 They pick a particular charity and do their best to try

24 and assist them.

25 Q. Would you get together with other lodges?

144

1 A. Occasionally.

2 Q. The local county?

3 A. Occasionally, yes.

4 Q. And are there other policemen in those lodges?

5 A. I'm sure there are, yes.

6 Q. I suggest --

7 A. There are people from all walks of life.

8 Q. Of course. But I suggest you know very well there are

9 other policemen in those lodges?

10 A. I have already told you there is, yes.

11 Q. But you actually know personally policemen in those

12 lodges?

13 A. A few, yes, not that many.

14 Q. And did you ever come across Superintendent McBurney at

15 any of those meetings?

16 A. I didn't, no.

17 Q. Not at all?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Would you have been aware that he was one of those

20 policemen who was a member of another masonic lodge?

21 A. No, I wasn't aware, no.

22 Q. Utterly unaware until today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to turn, please, to the interview that you had

25 in September of 1997 about the conduct in the Land Rover

145

1 of you and your colleagues. Do you remember that

2 interview?

3 A. Yes, it is one of many, yes.

4 Q. The purpose of bringing you into that interview, you

5 have already said, was to deal with what you maybe did

6 or didn't do on the night. Isn't that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And you have said, of course, that as far as you were

9 concerned, you did everything that you could?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. I would like you to look, please, at the statement of

12 Tracey Clarke at page [17328]. Beginning with:

13 "The person I saw in the middle of road I thought

14 was dead ..."

15 About four lines down.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This is what she says happened that night, what she saw

18 happen:

19 "The person I saw in the middle of the road

20 I thought was dead as he was not moving. It was at this

21 time I saw a number of persons gathered around the

22 person lying in the centre of the road. These persons

23 were kicking the person on the ground around the head

24 and body. I saw them jump on the person on the ground.

25 They jumped all over him and kicked him. I saw the

146

1 persons who were doing this and I can identify them as

2 Dean Forbes, Allister Hanvey, Stacey Bridgett, 'Muck' and

3 Rory Robinson."

4 She goes on to say a line or two later:

5 "At that time I saw a number of police behind the

6 crowd who were attacking the two persons lying on the

7 ground. As far as I could see, the police were not

8 doing much to stop what was happening."

9 Now, you are aware of that passage, are you not?

10 A. I see it here, yes.

11 Q. But you have seen it before?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you told the Inquiry that as far as you were

14 concerned, the people lying on the ground weren't lying

15 on the ground when you got out of the Land Rover?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. So if your evidence is correct then, they got to the

18 ground, they were felled to the ground, after you got

19 out?

20 A. Yes, that is correct, yes, they weren't on the ground

21 when I got out. I'm 100 per cent sure.

22 Q. Of course you are not suggesting in any way that the two

23 people weren't felled?

24 A. Oh, no. They definitely ended up on the ground, that's

25 right.

147

1 Q. There is an abundance of evidence about that. You see,

2 there is another statement from a Timothy Jameson, and

3 I'm not going to bring his statement up but he also

4 identifies Allister Hanvey as being one of those people

5 kicking the guy on the ground?

6 A. I can't identify him if I didn't see it.

7 Q. Yes, but what I'm going to say to you is this,

8 Mr Atkinson: that here we have two people who describe

9 a fairly sustained attack on somebody lying on the

10 ground. Would you agree with the suggestion that that's

11 what they describe?

12 A. The description is that, yes.

13 Q. In fact, they describe how these people who were around,

14 who were kicking him and jumping on his head, that's

15 what they saw?

16 A. That's what they say they saw, yes.

17 Q. I suggest to you that it is inconceivable that you

18 couldn't have seen the same thing.

19 A. That's not correct. I got out, there was no one lying

20 on the ground. Myself and the other constable removed

21 the guy that was in trouble, brought him back to the

22 back of the Land Rover. I have already described what

23 I saw.

24 Q. Are you seriously saying that this wasn't all going on

25 for some time after you are out of that Land Rover?

148

1 A. Definitely not.

2 Q. You are not suggesting of course that it all happened

3 while you were in the Land Rover?

4 A. It definitely didn't. They weren't on the ground when

5 I got out of the Land Rover.

6 Q. So it had to have happened after you got out?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And nowhere, Mr Atkinson, nowhere in any statement you

9 have made or in any interview you have had do you say

10 that you saw Allister Hanvey involved in this?

11 A. I did not see him involved in it.

12 Q. I suggest to you that it is inconceivable you didn't see

13 him?

14 A. You can suggest what you like, I didn't see him. I

15 didn't see the other ones that are named there as well,

16 except when I dealt with them when they were straight in

17 front of me.

18 Q. You see, he is well known to you?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. You certainly would have instantly recognised him,

21 I suggest?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. That he was hard to miss?

24 A. If I had have saw him I would have named him as

25 a perpetrator. I didn't see him.

149

1 Q. Is that the truth of it, Mr Atkinson?

2 A. It is the truth of it, yes.

3 Q. Would that not have brought a whole heap of trouble on

4 your head?

5 A. I really wasn't concerned about trouble on my head.

6 That doesn't concern me in the least. I was in to do my

7 job --

8 Q. You see, you have gotten over the Tunnel and now you

9 have Drumcree?

10 A. That really didn't matter to me.

11 Q. Your house has been attacked?

12 A. My house --

13 Q. In 1997?

14 A. My house was attacked, yes.

15 Q. That the last thing you want to be doing is naming,

16 identifying people, becoming a witness against people

17 for attacking a Catholic?

18 A. Sure I did name people and did become a witness.

19 Q. I suggest to you not in respect of what you really saw

20 and really knew?

21 A. Your suggestion is completely wrong, sir.

22 Q. Let fast forward a little bit to 2001, Mr Atkinson. You

23 were arrested in or about March 2001 -- isn't that

24 right? About the phone call?

25 A. Are you talking about the arrest --

150

1 Q. Yes, you were arrested and charged with conspiracy to

2 pervert the course of justice?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. On the basis that you were accused of conspiring with

5 the McKees to invent a fake alibi for the phone call on

6 27 April?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Do you remember all of that?

9 A. Yes, I remember being arrested, of course I do.

10 Q. And then you were released of course and got bail?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. After you were charged?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then on 19 April you found a surveillance device in

15 your house; isn't that right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Where did you find it again?

18 A. Behind the fireplace.

19 Q. Behind the fireplace?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And where behind the fireplace?

22 A. In behind the fireplace.

23 Q. Is this the fireplace that was cemented?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It is. What reason were you pulling the fireplace out?

151

1 A. I didn't pull the fireplace out.

2 Q. You found it behind the fireplace?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What were you doing behind the fireplace?

5 A. I was having a look for a surveillance device.

6 Q. Right. So you actually were looking for one on

7 19 April?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 Q. Is that because someone had advised you that you were

10 being listened to?

11 A. No, it is not. I looked for the device because of the

12 manner in which I was arrested. Myself and my wife

13 could have been arrested at the house and taken to

14 Gough Barracks, it seemed very strange to me that the

15 two of us were arrested away from the house and the

16 house searched. Several persons who were passing had

17 told me of a large number of vehicles being outside my

18 home. When I examined the search record, it only showed

19 four police present, so I knew there was something that

20 was not right.

21 Q. And being the canny enough policeman --

22 A. Well, I'm not stupid.

23 Q. -- that you had been over the years, you worked it out,

24 didn't you?

25 A. Yes, I'm not stupid.

152

1 Q. Just like you would have worked out that young Hanvey

2 was in a lot of trouble on 27 April 1997?

3 A. What trouble Hanvey was in had nothing to do with me.

4 Q. Because by the time you got back to the police station

5 you realised the CID were on the job, forensic were

6 being called out back in 1997, back to the police

7 station in the morning of the 27th?

8 A. What Allister Hanvey done is nothing to do with me

9 whatsoever.

10 Q. But you would have been able to apply that same canny

11 knowledge of police procedures in 1997 that you applied

12 in 2001. You would have realised there was a big

13 investigation going on into this incident?

14 A. I realised there was an investigation. I wouldn't say

15 it was big at that stage.

16 Q. And that involved Scenes of Crime, forensic?

17 A. Every investigation involves Scenes of Crime.

18 Q. So you would have known that if Mr Hanvey was involved

19 in that incident during the early hours of the morning

20 that there was likely some forensic traces on his

21 clothes?

22 A. Everybody in the street would have known that, if he had

23 have been involved.

24 Q. You see, I'm suggesting to you that everybody in the

25 street wouldn't have known it, Mr Atkinson?

153

1 A. I don't think so.

2 Q. It would have taken somebody who knew two things: the

3 first of those two things was just what Allister Hanvey

4 had done?

5 A. I didn't see Allister Hanvey doing anything. You have

6 already answered that question.

7 Q. And the second of those two things, Mr Atkinson, would

8 be that if he was involved in what you had seen him

9 being involved in, there could have been blood on his

10 clothes?

11 A. I have already told you I didn't see him being involved

12 in anything. The only time I saw Allister Hanvey was

13 when Sergeant P89 asked me his name.

14 Q. Of course there is a third element to that: that you had

15 a direct interest in contacting Mr Hanvey?

16 A. I had no direct interest whatsoever.

17 Q. You certainly had a direct interest in not naming him as

18 one of those you had seen attack Robert Hamill.

19 A. I don't see where you are coming from.

20 Q. You have already had a heap of trouble on your head over

21 Drumcree and the Tunnel?

22 A. I was quite able to sort my own trouble out at home.

23 Q. Was there any other reason you might have been concerned

24 about Mr Hanvey? He went on to the UVF wing when he was

25 arrested in 1997. Being the experienced policeman that

154

1 you are, did that tell us something?

2 A. Well, I wasn't aware that he had went to the UVF wing.

3 Q. You see, in 2001, on 19 April you find your bugging

4 device behind the fireplace?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Allister Hanvey found his the following day?

7 A. Well, that's nothing to do with me.

8 Q. Yes, but, you see, you are the canny policeman,

9 Mr Atkinson, who has worked out the way they arrested

10 you, sent a bunch of people to your house when you

11 weren't there, that they probably planted a bug.

12 Mr Hanvey wouldn't have had access to that type of

13 knowledge?

14 A. I wasn't even aware that Mr Hanvey had been arrested.

15 Q. I didn't say Mr Hanvey was arrested in 2001. I'm saying

16 that he hadn't access to the type of knowledge that you

17 had about how the police went about planting bugs?

18 A. I assume what you were inferring he was arrested the

19 same time as me.

20 Q. No, I never said that.

21 A. Well, I'm sure I have picked you up wrong then.

22 Q. You had a reason in 2001, Mr Atkinson, to look for

23 a bug?

24 A. I had, that's correct.

25 Q. Because you had worked it out?

155

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. But Mr Hanvey hadn't?

3 A. I know nothing about him. You would need to ask him why

4 he looked for it.

5 Q. Can you help us at all with the coincidence that he

6 found his bug 24 hours later?

7 A. It had nothing to do with me whatsoever. I was quite

8 happy that I had found what I had in the house.

9 Q. Did the word get out about your bug?

10 A. I wouldn't assume so, no. The only people present were

11 my solicitor and my local MLA.

12 Q. When you found it?

13 A. When I found it I called them.

14 Q. So they weren't present when you found it?

15 A. No.

16 Q. But you contacted them immediately?

17 A. Immediately.

18 Q. And you have no reason to believe why they would contact

19 Mr Hanvey?

20 A. I would find it very strange if they did.

21 Q. But did you contact him in 2001?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. Get some sort of message to him that there was a bug?

24 A. Definitely not. I had too many problems of my own

25 without looking after other people.

156

1 Q. You see, the bugs were collected then a day or so later

2 by Constable H?

3 A. No, my bug was collected that night.

4 Q. That night?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember the guy who collected it?

7 A. I do indeed.

8 Q. He then went round to Hanvey's to collect Hanvey's?

9 A. You said a day later. He was with me that night. So if

10 he left my house and went to Hanvey's it wasn't a day

11 later, it was the same day.

12 Q. So Hanvey knew about it even more quickly than 24 hours

13 later?

14 A. If that's your timings, yes.

15 Q. And you had nothing to do with that?

16 A. Why would I have?

17 Q. You see if there is a bug in Hanvey's house, he might

18 have been saying something you would rather he wasn't

19 saying. Is that right?

20 A. I know nothing about him.

21 Q. But your connections?

22 A. You need to ask him that question. I know nothing about

23 Allister Hanvey.

24 Q. Who was the MLA that was in your house?

25 A. xxxxxxxxxx, the local MLA at the time.

157

1 Q. You see, the same policeman, when he goes to

2 Allister Hanvey's house, he said, "There is an MLA there

3 but there are other people there, paramilitary-type

4 people"?

5 A. I'm not privy to that. I know nothing about it. I had

6 no paramilitaries in my house, I can assure you.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: What is an MLA, please?

8 MR McGRORY: Member of the Legislative Assembly.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 MR McGRORY: You see, it is one thing arresting people in

11 Drumcree -- you didn't arrest people in Drumcree. It is

12 one thing arresting people at the Tunnel, it is one

13 thing arresting people in other places for things, but

14 it is another altogether, Mr Atkinson, to become a key

15 witness against a member of your community in a murder

16 case.

17 A. I have give evidence against members of my community on

18 numerous occasions. My record can be looked at and will

19 stand up in any court. I have arrested people on both

20 sides of the political divide. It doesn't matter to me

21 who they are or what they are.

22 Q. You have never given evidence, have you, in a murder

23 case?

24 A. I have indeed, yes.

25 Q. Against a specific individual on whose evidence he was

158

1 convicted of murder?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. I just can't recall the chap's name, but it was in

5 Belfast and Mr xxxxxxxxxx represented him.

6 Q. Did he indeed? That was hardly a neighbour or a friend,

7 was it?

8 A. It was a local. I was aware of him. I just can't

9 recall his name.

10 Q. You just can't recall his name, no. You see, if you had

11 done what you were supposed to do back in 1997, you

12 would have been a key prosecution witness against

13 Allister Hanvey?

14 A. I did what I was supposed to do. I was there. I knew

15 what I did and what I did was the proper course of duty,

16 what I performed.

17 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you didn't?

18 A. I'm suggesting to you you are wrong.

19 Q. That would have been one step too far for you and your

20 family?

21 A. No, I disagree with you.

22 Q. Not only did you not give evidence against Mr Hanvey,

23 but you actually went one step further?

24 A. I disagree with you.

25 Q. And you rehabilitated yourself, or sought to do so in

159

1 your community --

2 A. I did nothing of the sort.

3 Q. -- by tipping Allister Hanvey off to get rid of his

4 clothing?

5 A. No.

6 MR McGRORY: Thank you.

7 Questions from MR DALY

8 MR DALY: Mr Atkinson, in relation to Andrea McKee, again

9 she is the liar in this situation, isn't that right,

10 according to you?

11 A. She has been known to tell lies, yes.

12 Q. When she makes her statement implicating herself about

13 this phone call and providing you with the false alibis,

14 she is telling lies about that?

15 A. I'm not sure what goes on in Andrea's mind but I know

16 that she tells lies.

17 Q. And when she implicated herself --

18 A. I don't understand why she implicated herself. You

19 would need to ask Mrs McKee why she implicated herself.

20 Q. And when she admitted her role in the criminal offence

21 of perverting the course of justice she was actually

22 lying about that?

23 A. I didn't say that. I said I don't know why Mrs McKee

24 made so many statements.

25 Q. Do you accept that she admitted her role in this serious

160

1 criminal offence?

2 A. She made a statement to say that.

3 Q. Do you know that she pleaded guilty in court in relation

4 to the offence?

5 A. Why she did that, I will never know.

6 Q. You will never know because that was the wrong thing

7 to do?

8 A. No, no, you'll need to ask Mrs McKee why she did that.

9 I can't speak for another person.

10 Q. She hadn't perverted the course of justice, Mr Atkinson,

11 in providing you with a false cover for the phone call?

12 A. As far as I'm aware.

13 Q. You are the one telling the truth about this; is that

14 right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And she is the liar?

17 A. Well, she has been known to tell lies, yes.

18 MR DALY: Thank you.

19 Questions from MR McKILLOP

20 MR McKILLOP: Just one matter, Mr Chairman. Whilst you were

21 present inside the Land Rover, did you hear any banging

22 inside the Land Rover?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Or anyone shouting for assistance?

25 A. No, I didn't, no.

161

1 MS DINSMORE: No re-examination.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will then 10 o'clock tomorrow

4 morning.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Atkinson.

6 In fact, we have allowed all of tomorrow for the

7 remainder of Mr Atkinson's evidence. So unless the

8 witness team have managed to bring anybody forward,

9 which I very much doubt, tomorrow will be a preparation

10 day, I think.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, very well.

12 (4.37 pm)

13 (The Inquiry adjourned until Wednesday, 13 May 2009)

162

1 I N D E X

2
MRS ELEANOR ATKINSON (sworn) ..................... 1
3
Questions from MR UNDERWOOD .................. 1
4
Questions from MR ADAIR ...................... 14
5
Questions from MR McGRORY .................... 15
6
Questions from MR BERRY ...................... 46
7
MR ROBERT ATKINSON (sworn) ....................... 51
8
Questions from MR UNDERWOOD .................. 51
9
Questions from MR WOLFE ...................... 102
10
Questions from MR ADAIR ...................... 104
11
MR ROBERT ATKINSON (continued) ................... 113
12
Questions from MR McGRORY .................... 113
13
Questions from MR DALY ....................... 160
14
Questions from MR McKILLOP ................... 161
15

163

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 11th May 2009, day 47