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Hearing: 3rd April 2009, day 37
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Friday, 3 April 2009
commencing at 10.00 am
Day 37
1 Friday, 3 April 2009
2 (10.00 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. Can I call Fiona Hamill,
4 please.
5 MS FIONA HAMILL (sworn)
6 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. Can I ask your full names,
8 please?
9 A. My name is Fiona Josephine Ryan.
10 Q. Can I ask to you look at page [81745], please, on the
11 screen? If we just go through quickly the three pages
12 of this, can you tell us whether that's your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I don't want to ask you very much at all, just to
17 clarify a couple of things, if I may. If we look at the
18 first page of that, [81745], at paragraph 2, you say of
19 course you weren't at the scene. When you found out
20 that Robert had been attacked you went to the hospital
21 and you say you saw Dermot McNeice, who you knew had
22 been with Robert on the night?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you help us with who else was there at the hospital?
25 A. I only know that I was with my husband and I collected
1
1 my brother, xxxxxxxxxx. I know when I went to the hospital
2 that the first person I sort of saw was Dermot and
3 I went over to him. But I have to be truthful, I was
4 just really eager to get to see Robert and
5 just to find out where he was and I really didn't
6 go round anywhere looking for anyone else, to be honest.
7 Q. Obviously you spoke to Dermot McNeice?
8 A. Yes, I spoke to Dermot.
9 Q. Did he tell you anything about what he'd seen or where
10 he had been with Robert?
11 A. No, Dermot had just sort of said he was sort of standing
12 and he knew that he had a couple of drinks in him, but
13 he just said, you know, they were all over the place,
14 all over the place. He just kept repeating himself,
15 things like that there, but we didn't go into anything
16 else.
17 Q. Thank you. If we go over the page to [81746] at
18 paragraph 8, you tell us about a visit you had with your
19 sister Diane to Portadown police station to have
20 a discussion with an officer. It is an inspector. We
21 are calling him [Detective Inspector Irwin] at the moment.
22 Do you know who we are talking about?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you say there that -- in the second sentence:
25 "Detective Inspector Irwin was very negative regarding
2
1 the video evidence. He said that it was insignificant. There
2 was nothing on it."
3 You say:
4 "I asked him, 'Is the Land Rover on the video?' He
5 said, 'Yes, it is.' That was enough for me."
6 Are you clear about that?
7 A. I'm very clear about that.
8 Q. How did that make you feel? Can you recall your
9 reaction on being told that the Land Rover was on the
10 video?
11 A. I think I was kind of relieved that the Land Rover was
12 on the video. I asked him -- you know, he was very
13 negative that there was nothing of any evidence on the
14 video and I specifically just had said, "Is the Land
15 Rover on the video?" And he said, "Yes, it is".
16 At that stage, the other officer beside him swung
17 round and looked at him and then I just -- I just felt
18 happy that it was on it and that, you know, the fact
19 that the Land Rover was there meant that everything that
20 was going on around the Land Rover was on video as well
21 and they should be able to capture people.
22 Q. Was that a discussion about finding the killers or was
23 that a discussion about finding out whether the police
24 had got out of the Land Rover?
25 A. We had went up and we had wanted to find out what was
3
1 going on in the investigation because we weren't being
2 informed. We didn't know what was happening. I had
3 a brother in the Royal fighting for his life and we
4 didn't know what was going on. Nobody was telling us
5 anything. My opinion at that stage was that this was attempted
6 murder. We went up to find out what was happening because
7 we didn't know what was happening.
8 Q. Was your concern then in finding out how they were
9 getting on finding the perpetrators?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. There is just one matter I want to ask you about at
12 page [81747] at paragraph 13. You talk about attending
13 some meetings at the DPP's office and talking to
14 somebody called Kitson, and you say your understanding
15 was they would consider prosecuting if there was
16 evidence and his attitude was all right. And he gave
17 you an explanation that the cases had been dropped
18 because there was no evidence and the witnesses had
19 pulled out because "they were intimidated, I suppose".
20 There are two ways of reading that. Can you help us
21 with whether it was your supposition that the witnesses
22 were being intimidated, or you were told that?
23 A. No, I think he alluded to the fact that there were
24 witnesses being intimidated.
25 Q. Did he mention which ones?
4
1 A. No, he didn't. I think we have just learned, you know,
2 who was being intimidated. I think that has sort of
3 gradually come out.
4 Q. We have seen the notes of various meetings which the DPP
5 had with various witnesses and they don't mention
6 intimidation. Are you clear about that, that you think
7 he did say it?
8 A. Definitely he did say that, yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the inspector?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Kitson.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Good, thank you very much. Those are the
15 questions I have for you. As you know, what happens
16 here is some others may have some more.
17 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: May I ask about the video?
18 It is the first mention we have heard. Can you tell us
19 what the video ...
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Shall I elicit more about this so that I can
21 be clear where we are?
22 The videos I was asking you about that we were
23 discussing with Detective Inspector Irwin, those are the
24 CCTV capture of what was happening on the night in
25 Portadown from the various locations that had video
5
1 cameras. Is that how you understood it?
2 A. Yes.
3 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: Videos from around the town.
4 A. Yes, within that area.
5 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
6 MR ADAIR: No questions.
7 MR McGRORY: No questions.
8 Questions by MR O'CONNOR
9 MR O'CONNOR: I have just a couple of questions,
10 Mr Chairman. Sorry, is it Miss or Mrs Hamill?
11 A. Mrs Ryan.
12 Q. Mrs Ryan, in relation to the CCTV camera and cameras in
13 the area, did you feel that there would have been a lot
14 of CCTV coverage in the area?
15 A. I felt that there would have been a significant amount
16 of CCTV.
17 Q. Did you have quite a long conversation with Detective
18 Inspector Irwin about that?
19 A. No, it wasn't a long conversation, no.
20 Q. How long was it?
21 A. I can't recall how many minutes, but I know that it was
22 quite short and sweet and abrupt in manner.
23 Q. Yes. But is it fair that the police initially were very
24 nice about things and then things weren't so nice
25 afterwards; is that right? Is that your memory of how
6
1 the police were treating you and your sister? Do you
2 remember if that's right or not?
3 A. No, I don't recall that.
4 Q. How do you feel that the police were treating you at the
5 time of this conversation about the video cameras?
6 A. That initial interview with us?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Well, Mr Irwin, he was all right during that conversation but
9 the other officer had swung round and said, "Well, have you
10 had any evidence?", and I said, "No. Sure I wasn't there."
11 I felt his manner -- I was quite taken aback by the way he was
12 speaking to me, because I don't know why he was speaking to me like that.
13 Q. Can I just make it clear Detective Inspector Irwin was fine during that interview?
14 A. He was all right.
15 Q. And the other officer was --
16 A. He wasn't very nice.
17 Q. Do you know who that was?
18 A. I do, yes.
19 Q. Could you get a cipher out there, please?
20 A. I think it is Chief Inspector Bradley.
21 Q. Okay. Where was the video that you are referring to,
22 the CCTV that you are referring to that you say said
23 showed a Land Rover?
24 A. I wasn't -- I wasn't given that information, which video
25 that was.
7
1 Q. Did you have a feeling where that video might be, were
2 you suggesting during that time, where you had been told
3 where that CCTV would be?
4 A. I'm assuming it was the Alliance & Leicester, around
5 that area.
6 Q. Yes. Was it the situation that you and your sister were
7 suggesting that there was video evidence or there should
8 be video evidence outside the First Trust?
9 A. That's sort of next door to each other.
10 Q. Yes. Well, at that time, as I understand it, there was
11 the Halifax on one side of Woodhouse Street, there was
12 the Alliance & Leicester to the left of Woodhouse Street
13 and then at the lay-by there was the First Trust. Is
14 that right? Do you remember that?
15 A. He didn't tell us specifically which video evidence he
16 had, whatever, but I can just tell you that he said the
17 Land Rover was on that video, and that's all I know.
18 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that the conversation that
19 you had with Detective Inspector Irwin in relation to
20 CCTV was of the nature that you were suggesting the Land
21 Rover was outside the First Trust at the lay-by and
22 there would have been CCTV evidence of that?
23 A. I didn't suggest anything.
24 Q. No, and that as he explained to you, that even if the
25 Land Rover was on CCTV outside the First Trust, it
8
1 wouldn't have shown anything because nothing happened
2 outside the First Trust. Do you understand that?
3 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.
4 Q. Do you remember any of that conversation?
5 A. No, that wasn't in the conversation.
6 Q. I suggest to you that was the conversation?
7 A. No, that was most definitely not the conversation,
8 definitely not.
9 Q. I'm suggesting to you that would you know if CCTV
10 evidence in relation to the First Trust was checked?
11 A. I don't know what they had checked. They didn't
12 tell us.
13 Q. Were you told if the Alliance & Leicester had been
14 checked?
15 A. Again, they didn't tell us which video evidence they was
16 relating to.
17 Q. What about the Halifax?
18 A. We were assuming it was around that area.
19 Q. So you know where the Halifax is. You have heard some
20 evidence?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were assuming that's where you were talking about?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the CCTV evidence in relation
25 to those three financial institutions were checked.
9
1 That didn't come up in the discussion?
2 A. No, it didn't, no.
3 Q. And in fact there was a fourth one, the Northern Bank,
4 which is just on past again?
5 A. Hm-mm.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Unless Mrs Ryan was told, she wouldn't know,
7 would she?
8 MR O'CONNOR: I'm trying to put a little bit just,
9 Mr Chairman.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
11 MR O'CONNOR: You simply are just surprised that there was
12 no CCTV evidence; is that right? That's the position?
13 A. I'm surprised it was lost.
14 Q. Was there any discussion about Jameson's bar and the
15 CCTV --
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or the quality of CCTV evidence in Boss Hogg's?
18 A. What about it?
19 Q. Did you hear anything about that?
20 A. No.
21 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
22 MR McGRORY: Nothing arising, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Something half arises out of that. In one
10
1 way it is something I should have asked you before.
2 That meeting at the police station with these two
3 officers, you say in your statement -- you don't put
4 a date on it -- Robert was still alive at that stage.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know whether it was before or after the complaint
7 that was made by xxxxxxxxxx on behalf of the
8 family?
9 A. I believe it was before the complaint was made.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Diane Hudson, please.
13 MRS DIANE HUDSON (sworn)
14 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. Would you like to tell us your
16 full names, please?
17 A. Diane Mary Rose Hamill.
18 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [81729]. Can we flick
19 through the pages of this quite briefly, please. There
20 are 16 of them. Is that your statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Again, just a couple of questions I want to ask you
25 about, if I may.
11
1 If we go to page [81733] of this, paragraph 20, you
2 tell us there there was a story in the Irish News on the
3 day after the attack giving accounts from people coming
4 out of pubs in Woodhouse Street, and you say:
5 "This was the street heading down to the Catholic
6 areas, so the pubs there would have been Catholic. They
7 heard the screams of the girls and came up. One of the
8 fellows, Colin Hull, told me that he opened the door of
9 the Land Rover and pulled Constable Neill out saying,
10 'You sat there and watched it happening'."
11 Is that accurate? Is it that Colin Hull told you
12 that or did you read it in the paper?
13 A. I spoke to Colin Hull following the death of my brother.
14 I had heard from other people that he had done it and
15 I asked him directly was he the one that had opened the
16 Land Rover door. He told me that he was.
17 Q. How soon after the event was it that you spoke to him?
18 A. It was after Robert died, so probably within a couple of
19 weeks of Robert dying -- probably within a week of Robert dying.
20 Q. Did you seek him out to ask him this?
21 A. No, I think -- no, I think I met him on the street
22 actually outside his house. I think it was one of my
23 brothers who would have been friendly with him, and
24 I spoke to him and I asked him to tell me was it him
25 or not.
12
1 Q. You are quite clear about that, are you: he admitted it?
2 A. Yes, he did, 100 per cent.
3 Q. Did he have anything else to say about the events?
4 A. I didn't ask him to go into -- I didn't want to push
5 people afterwards, you know, for details about what
6 happened that night. That was the specific thing I was
7 interested in with Colin Hull because I knew it was
8 very, very important and I just wanted to clarify it.
9 Q. If we go to page [81735], in your paragraph 28, you deal
10 with what Fiona has just been telling us about the
11 meeting at the police station where you spoke to the
12 officer we are presently called [Detective Inspector
13 Irwin]. And you say there -- the second sentence:
14 "We discussed the tapes and the Land Rover. He
15 seemed to suggest there was nothing on the tapes and
16 they had gone back to the businesses. Fiona
17 specifically asked had the Land Rover shown up on the
18 tapes and he said that it had." [81736]
19 You go on:
20 "We were of the opinion ourselves that the Land
21 Rover being on the tapes was important and that they
22 should have been retained."
23 Now, again, how clear are you about that
24 conversation having taken place?
25 A. Absolutely clear, every detail of it, down to the room
13
1 that they took us to, which was that little room that
2 you had to go downstairs in the police station, down to
3 that little room that that inspector a few weeks ago
4 described.
5 It was a little interview room and there was a tape
6 recorder in it. It had a small table in the middle.
7 There was three of us. There was actually three sisters
8 there: There was me, xxxxxxxxxx, Fiona, and the two
9 policemen. They left us in the room for a while on our
10 own and then they come in, and the two policemen sat in
11 front of us. We had a short conversation.
12 We had to go to that police station to find out what
13 was happening because we had no idea had anyone been
14 lifted for hurting Robert. We had no idea what was
15 going on at all. We weren't being told. So we took it
16 upon ourselves to go up to the police station to try and
17 find out what was happening, and we asked had anyone
18 been arrested, had they any information. They didn't
19 have anything really to tell us. And, you know, we
20 asked about the CCTV footage that was available, you
21 know, from the various premises and we were told there
22 was nothing on it. And I was about to accept that when
23 Fiona piped up and said, "Well, was the Land Rover on
24 it?" I remember that distinctly because I remember
25 thinking, "Why did I not think of that question?" She
14
1 did and he said, yes, it was on it.
2 Q. Did you catch what Fiona caught, which was the other
3 officer --
4 A. Yes, he was shocked. He was shocked that that was
5 acknowledged.
6 Q. Did he seem to disagree with it or did you get the
7 impression that it was shock that it had been admitted?
8 A. He just swung round and looked at him as if to say,
9 "What did you just say?"
10 Q. When you tell us in your statement here that you were of
11 the opinion that the Land Rover being on the tapes was
12 important and that they should have been retained, is
13 that something that was said at that meeting or was that
14 an opinion you just have?
15 A. That the Land Rover was important?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. The fact that the Land Rover was on video. I would have
18 accepted that would have been important, you know.
19 Q. Did you say that at the meeting, is what I'm getting at?
20 Did say, "Why did you give the tapes back then if the
21 Land Rover was on it?" Or anything like that?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. How did the meeting end up on that point?
24 A. We were just in total shock. We couldn't believe that
25 those were -- at the time, I don't know if they knew
15
1 where they were, if they still had them they had given
2 them back or what they'd done with them. I know that
3 apparently they were eventually given back. I was just
4 dumbstruck that -- I felt that was evidence and it had
5 just been disregarded totally.
6 Q. And then if we go to page [81743], looking at
7 paragraph 54, you are dealing here with dealings with
8 the DPP and you say there you were made aware that
9 certain witnesses refused to give evidence, one of them
10 was Allister Hanvey's girlfriend. And you say you were
11 shocked that something couldn't have been done to
12 preserve their evidence or make sure it was used in some
13 way. And you say the DPP seemed very willing to just
14 let it drop.
15 Can you expand on this for us, the attitude of the
16 DPP about this? Do you think they were doing their best
17 or do you think they were just resigned to the fact that
18 they had no evidence, or what?
19 A. I'm not legalistic, but I just felt that once there was
20 a chance to drop this at any stage over the years it was
21 dropped, even up to the attempt at prosecution of [Reserve
22 Constable Atkinson]. Is that his name?
23 Q. Are you suggesting there that the DPP officers that you
24 were dealing with were more happy than not --
25 A. We didn't have a lot of dealings with them. I think we
16
1 had maybe one meeting with them.
2 Q. Is this part of your general impression about the way
3 that bringing people to justice was dealt with?
4 A. I had no idea about anybody else being brought to
5 justice. I was just concentrating on what was happening
6 to us and just that every chance there seemed to be for
7 things to be dropped, they were dropped straight away.
8 Q. That's your overall impression?
9 A. That's how I felt.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. As you know, other
11 people may have some questions.
12 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
13 Questions by MR ADAIR
14 MR ADAIR: Sir, I have just some questions for you,
15 Ms Hudson.
16 We know, and it is obvious, that neither you or your
17 sisters were present that night and you were relying on
18 what you had been told by other people to try and get an
19 account of what happened. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes, that's true.
21 Q. Was it that first night in the hospital that you were
22 told by people what they had seen? For example, was
23 Mr Hull in the hospital that night?
24 A. I'm not aware if he was in the hospital that night. The
25 account that I was told come from my mother.
17
1 I was working night duty. I got my mother come to
2 my door at 5.30 in the morning crying saying that Robert
3 was hurt, that people had hurt him in the town and that
4 the police had sat and hadn't helped him. That story
5 had come directly from -- I believe she had had two
6 phone calls: one from my sister xxxxxxxxxx, who had spoken
7 to E and F and had come from -- my mother as well had
8 spoken to the mother of E and F who had phoned my mother
9 and give her the same story.
10 Q. I understand. So you went to the hospital?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Did you not go to the hospital at all?
13 A. Not to Craigavon Area Hospital. I went to the Royal
14 Victoria Hospital because he was transferred.
15 Q. Can you remember the first time it was that you spoke to
16 Colin Hull about it?
17 A. As I said, it was maybe a week or two after he died.
18 Q. Is that the time you are talking about that you have
19 told us already about, where you met him on the street?
20 A. Yes. That's the only time I spoke to Colin Hull apart
21 from after this inquiry, I spoke to him outside.
22 Q. Can you remember the first time you spoke to
23 Dermot McNeice about it?
24 A. The first time I spoke to Dermot McNeice was the day he
25 give evidence at this inquiry.
18
1 Q. What you were being told essentially was that the police
2 had sat there and watched this whole thing happening and
3 done nothing?
4 A. Then I spoke to E and F myself on the Monday and they
5 told me the same story: that Robert had been attacked
6 and that no one had helped him.
7 Q. Now, thereafter I think you said that you weren't getting any
8 information from the police in the days after the
9 assault. Is that right?
10 A. I don't believe we were, no, otherwise I wouldn't have
11 went to the police station.
12 Q. I mean, I'm not going to go through it in detail, but
13 the Inquiry will hear evidence that there were visits to
14 you -- to your home -- first of all on the 27th, to try
15 and get the clothing?
16 A. I believe I heard about that one, yes. One of my
17 sisters was at home when that happened, yes.
18 Q. Do you know what had happened to the clothing?
19 A. I believe they had been given to his fiancee the night
20 in the hospital.
21 Q. So the fiancee had taken the clothing?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We know that it ended up with the solicitor. Do you know why
24 his clothing ended up with the solicitor?
25 A. I had no idea they had ended up with the solicitor. As
19
1 far as I'm aware, they were handed over to the police.
2 Q. If you don't know then obviously we cannot take it any
3 further with you, but I think the evidence will be that
4 ultimately Robert's clothing had to be collected from
5 Hugo Marleys -- do you know Hugo Marleys solicitors?
6 A. Yes, I do. I went to Hugo Marley myself initially.
7 Q. You can't help us with how it ended up there?
8 A. No idea.
9 Q. There will also be evidence that the police attended at
10 your house two days later on the 29th to liaise with the
11 family and update the family on the investigation and
12 other matters raised. Can you remember that visit?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you --
15 A. No one in my family told me about that, no.
16 Q. Maybe I can short circuit this. Were you living in the
17 family home?
18 A. When Robert was hurt I was travelling between the family
19 home and the hospital.
20 Q. Were you still going to work?
21 A. No, not when he was hurt, no. We were all off.
22 Q. Then there will be evidence that again on the 30th, the
23 next day, again two officers came to your home to update the
24 family. Do you remember that happening?
25 A. No.
20
1 Q. Then again on the following day, that Detective Inspector Irwin
2 spoke to you reference the progress of the investigation?
3 A. That was the time I went to the police station.
4 Q. I think that might be the time you went to the station.
5 Then again that on 7 May, two officers went to your home and
6 spoke to [your mother] about the assault. Can you remember
7 that happening?
8 A. No. I remember -- I'll tell you the incidents I do
9 remember police coming to our house was the one that
10 xxxxxxxxxx told me about the morning that Robert was hurt
11 looking for his clothes. The next I knew was they come
12 to -- Robert was dead -- in our house during our wake to
13 tell us they had arrested people. And then the next
14 time he come to our house was to let us know that they
15 were letting them out.
16 Q. I want to suggest to you that there were a number of
17 visits by a number of police officers to your family
18 home from the period of the 27th right up to the time of
19 Robert's death, but if you don't remember those, you
20 don't remember those?
21 A. I don't remember those. You know, we obviously felt
22 that we needed to go to the police station. I don't go
23 to the police station willy-nilly.
24 Q. You have told us -- and I just want to be clear about
25 this Colin Hull business. You know you have told us
21
1 when you met Colin Hull --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- you asked him about whether he had pulled the police
4 officer from the Land Rover?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you told us that a number of other people had told
7 you that he did that. Who were they?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Try and recall.
10 A. I don't, I honestly don't.
11 Q. Were they people that had witnessed Colin Hull doing
12 this?
13 A. I can't honestly say, Mr Adair, to be honest with you.
14 Q. If you can't, you can't. But can you even remember --
15 just putting it in general terms without saying
16 specifically who they were, can you remember were they
17 people who had actually seen it happening or were they
18 people who were recounting what they had heard? Do you
19 understand the difference?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Can you remember that?
22 A. I can't, honestly. I would be telling lies if I said a name to
23 you, to be honest.
24 Q. When you asked him, did he readily accept that he was
25 the person who had done that?
22
1 A. He did, yes.
2 Q. Now, I only want to ask you just in very general terms
3 and I'm going to put to you a simple proposition: you
4 have been sitting in this tribunal listening to the
5 evidence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Up to date?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It is pretty apparent that there was a wall of silence
10 from a lot of the Protestant witnesses in this town,
11 isn't it?
12 A. That's very apparent, yes.
13 Q. It is pretty apparent that when the police went to them
14 time after time after time that they basically
15 substantially refused to cooperate with the police.
16 Isn't that right? That has become apparent?
17 A. It seems to be, yes.
18 Q. For whatever reason -- and there may be good or bad
19 reason for it...
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. ... it is right to say also that on the Catholic side there
22 was a total lack of cooperation with the police
23 investigation either into the murder or -- I say total:
24 there was a substantial lack of cooperation from the
25 Catholic side for good or bad reason?
23
1 A. I spoke to the people that give me the information about
2 what happened that night were E and F, and I spoke to
3 them on the Monday and they had told me they had been to
4 the police station on the Sunday to tell them what had
5 happened.
6 Q. I know they had made statements, but you are aware,
7 aren't you, for example -- well, are you aware that
8 xxxxxxxxxx had taken statements from McNeice and
9 from Hull and that nobody actually knew about them until
10 about a year and a half later? Were you aware of that?
11 A. During the Inquiry I was aware of that.
12 Q. You weren't aware up to then?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, had you given --
15 A. I knew people had given statements to xxxxxxxxxx.
16 Q. Had you given any instructions that nobody's statements
17 should be passed on to the police?
18 A. No.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you use "you" for the lady herself or for the family?
20 MR ADAIR: That would be better. Are you aware whether any
21 of the family had said to xxxxxxxxxx there should
22 be no cooperation with the police inquiry?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know that xxxxxxxxxx failed, it will be
25 suggested, to in any way cooperate with the police
24
1 investigation, or inquiry indeed into the disciplinary
2 matters?
3 A. I don't know what her reasons were for that.
4 Q. Well, you also, apart from xxxxxxxxxx, were sent
5 a letter asking -- as were a substantial number of other
6 witnesses -- asking to come along for an interview at
7 a place and time of your choosing. Do you remember
8 getting that letter?
9 A. I do, yes.
10 Q. And didn't go?
11 A. No, I didn't. I wasn't there that night, Mr Adair.
12 Q. I understand that. The other witnesses didn't go
13 either. Was that on the behest of the family --
14 A. No --
15 Q. Can you help us --
16 A. I had no idea what those people were doing. You know,
17 it was between them and their legal representative. I
18 wasn't going to force anyone to do anything.
19 Q. But at that stage, the complaint had been made by
20 xxxxxxxxxx about the police activity or inactivity?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That was being investigated because the complaint was
23 made?
24 A. Right, yes.
25 Q. So do we understand then that it was no instruction from
25
1 the Hamill family not to cooperate with the police
2 investigation?
3 A. Most definitely not.
4 Q. So is it the position then that if there was total
5 non-cooperation by xxxxxxxxxx's office in this
6 investigation, that was her decision and not the
7 family's?
8 A. We didn't instruct anyone not to cooperate with the
9 police.
10 Q. The final thing just I want to ask you about is just in
11 relation to Mr Prunty, Colin Prunty. Do you know
12 Colin Prunty?
13 A. I do, yes, I do.
14 Q. Had you talked to him about what he had seen?
15 A. I had heard that Colin Prunty had approached a police
16 officer who had let someone out of a Land Rover, and
17 I approached Colin Prunty myself.
18 Q. Did you talk to him about what he had seen?
19 A. Yes, I did, yes.
20 Q. Well, did he not tell you, as he has told others, that
21 the police got out of the Land Rover when Robert was on
22 the ground and tried to get in to break it up, but it
23 was to no effect because there wasn't enough of them?
24 A. No, he did not tell me that at all. The first I heard
25 of that was in this Inquiry.
26
1 Q. Was in the Inquiry?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you, Ms Hudson.
4 A. Okay.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Ms Dinsmore?
6 Questions by MS DINSMORE
7 MS DINSMORE: I am sure everyone in this room appreciates
8 how incredibly difficult this is for you and I just want
9 to ask you really just one thing. You have described
10 your brother in paragraph 3 of your statement as
11 handsome.
12 A. Yes, his photographs in the media don't do him any
13 justice. He would not be happy with that old photograph
14 that goes round the media at all.
15 Q. Have you a photograph with you of him there? Can I just
16 ask you one question -- I will not prolong this -- what
17 colour was Robert's hair?
18 A. Robert had dirty fair hair.
19 MS DINSMORE: Dirty fair hair. Thank you very much.
20 Questions by MR O'CONNOR
21 MR O'CONNOR: A couple of questions, Mrs Hudson, in relation
22 to the CCTV evidence that your sister Mrs Ryan has given
23 evidence about.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As far as I can tell from a quick revision of my papers,
27
1 she didn't mention in the past the reaction of the other
2 officer during the time that Detective Inspector Irwin
3 mentioned the Land Rover. And doing the best I can, it
4 seems that you didn't either at any stage. Is that
5 right, first of all?
6 A. I didn't really think it was relevant. Obviously,
7 during this Inquiry we have had a lot more family
8 discussions about things that have gone on and people
9 have remembered things and things have come back to us.
10 Q. And when did you sign your statement for this Inquiry?
11 A. It was a couple of days ago.
12 Q. Yes. Has that come to your mind in the last couple of
13 days then?
14 A. There is thousands of things have happened to us over
15 the 12 years. I wouldn't have had enough room in the
16 statement. You'd have had an encyclopaedia if I'd have
17 put everything in.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The date of the signing of the statement
19 isn't necessarily the date of its compilation, still less of
20 course the date of the interview on which it was based.
21 MR O'CONNOR: Did you think at any stage that you might want
22 to put in that detail when it came to mind? When it
23 came to mind during the course of this Inquiry that you
24 might say, "That's definitely important now and I must
25 say to the Inquiry I must change my statement and put
28
1 that bit in because we've now realised how important that is"?
2 A. There is lots of things that have had happened to me with regard to different
3 police officers over the years that I could have put into that statement
4 that aren't in it. That didn't come to mind to put into the statement, no.
5 Q. I understood what you have just said to me is that you
6 realised some time during the course of this Inquiry how
7 important that piece of evidence would be?
8 A. I knew the second he said the Land Rover was on the
9 video how important it was.
10 Q. I'm talking about the reaction of the other officer,
11 that he was dumbstruck by this statement. First of all,
12 do you know who the other officer was?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you give me his cipher, please?
15 A. [Detective Sergeant Bradley].
16 Q. His reaction was such that you felt that there was
17 something wrong being done by Detective Inspector Irwin,
18 isn't that really what you are implying?
19 A. I can't interpret his actions. He was surprised that he
20 had said it. I can't interpret how he felt, how he
21 perceived it or what he felt. I can just tell you that
22 he swung his head round and looked at him.
23 Q. Is it fair that well in advance of this hearing, and in fact
24 over many years, you have come to realise that the police
25 have been quite clear that there is nothing on CCTV footage
29
1 or on any video which would help the investigation?
2 A. I had no idea. I have never seen them. I know they had
3 them for a few days. I believe they had them for a few
4 days and gave them back. The fact that the Land Rover
5 was on the footage, there was so many happened around
6 the Land Rover.
7 Q. You have made a number of statements over the years and
8 during those statements and during things you've said
9 over the years -- there's a lady who'll be giving
10 evidence, Beatrix Campbell, a journalist, at some stage
11 and you have given the same type of evidence to her and
12 you know the point about the CCTV evidence?
13 A. Hm-mm.
14 Q. And you know how important that would be?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So then you would know how important it would be that if
17 an officer had this reaction during that interview --
18 A. I was more shocked. I was more concentrating on the
19 fact that the Land Rover was on it and that they had
20 given them back or they didn't know where they were at
21 the time. I don't think they were that clear where they
22 were at the time. His reaction -- honestly, it was just
23 when we were talking about it it kind of brought it back
24 to me. The whole layout of that room, everything come
25 back to me. I didn't put in my statement his reaction,
30
1 no. Maybe that was a fault of mine.
2 Q. When did that come back to you, the layout of the room,
3 everything, all the detail that you have given the
4 Inquiry today? When did all that detail come back to
5 you?
6 A. I have never really particularly forgotten the layout of
7 the room. I always knew it was a grubby little room
8 with a tape recorder.
9 Q. I'm asking you when did the detail that you mentioned
10 come back to you?
11 A. Which detail in particular are you talking about?
12 Q. The detail you have just referred to you, because you
13 said the detail just came back to me and my next
14 question was, "When it did come back to you?" So can
15 you tell me when it came back to you and what detail you
16 were talking about?
17 A. Well, I have never forgot the conversation in the room
18 or the layout of the room, if you are asking that
19 question.
20 Q. I'm asking you to go back to my previous question and
21 ask you what detail you were talking about that come
22 back to you?
23 A. The reaction of the officers.
24 Q. The officers or the officer?
25 A. That reaction that you are talking about was that one
31
1 officer.
2 Q. Yes, and when did that detail of that reaction come back
3 to you?
4 A. Probably during the course of the Inquiry.
5 Q. And we are back now to asking you -- I don't want to
6 repeat myself, but when you realised that that
7 reaction came back to you, and knowing the importance of
8 the evidence in relation to the CCTV camera, why did you
9 not think at some stage prior to signing your statement
10 to say, "There is a bit more here that I think is
11 important"?
12 A. I didn't understand the relevance of his reaction, to be
13 honest with you, I didn't.
14 Q. Because that reaction would back up evidence that
15 Detective Inspector Irwin said that; isn't that right?
16 A. He did say it.
17 Q. Yes. But I'm putting it clearly to you that that wasn't
18 said in those terms?
19 A. The fact that I didn't mention in my statement that he
20 turned round and looked at him, no, I didn't.
21 Q. No, what I'm saying to you about Detective Inspector Irwin
22 is that the discussion was -- at that stage, did you think
23 that the Land Rover was parked at the First Trust Bank?
24 A. No, that Land Rover, we believe, was parked at
25 position 3.
32
1 Q. At the time when you were being interviewed by Detective
2 Inspector Irwin and the other officer, did you know
3 where the Land Rover was parked?
4 A. Yes, we did. E and F had told us where it was parked.
5 Q. Did you think it was at the First Trust Bank?
6 A. No, that's where the lay-by was. They had moved on down
7 the street.
8 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the discussion about the Land
9 Rover with Detective Inspector Irwin was in relation to
10 the lay-by outside the First Trust Bank.
11 A. That would have been -- why would we have talked about
12 that? That would have been a waste of time because they
13 had already moved on down and the attack happened when
14 they had moved on down.
15 Q. At the time you were talking about the First Trust Bank,
16 the --
17 A. We weren't talking about the First Trust Bank.
18 Q. This is what I'm suggesting to you. You have denied
19 it --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: You see, if you put a question which
21 pre-supposes her assent to something she hasn't
22 assented, it becomes two questions in one and it merely
23 confuses.
24 MR O'CONNOR: I will put a question between then. Do you
25 remember any talk about the First Trust Bank?
33
1 A. No, there was no mention -- we just knew there was
2 various cameras that come off various businesses around
3 the town. We didn't know what was on each or any one of
4 them at all.
5 Q. What I'm suggest suggesting to you is that there was
6 talk about the First Trust Bank --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: She said no to that.
8 MR O'CONNOR: Yes. And that you gave the impression that
9 you thought the Land Rover was at the First Trust Bank
10 during this interview.
11 A. No, E and F had told me where the Land Rover was and
12 that's the basis of the discussion, as to where that
13 Land Rover was. It was never mentioned, the First Trust
14 Bank. No businesses were mentioned, I don't believe, at
15 all.
16 Q. And that you were told that even if there was a Land
17 Rover in front of the First Trust Bank, that wouldn't be
18 of any use because that's not where the incident
19 happened?
20 A. That was never mentioned, no. We were referring to
21 video footage of the actual incident and the Land Rover
22 was at position 3.
23 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
25 MR McGRORY: Two matters --
34
1 MR BERRY: Sorry, Mr Chairman.
2 MR McGRORY: My apologies to Mr Berry.
3 Questions by MR BERRY
4 MR BERRY: Ms Hamill, I'm Greg Berry and I appear for
5 Andrea McKee. I want to ask you about one paragraph in
6 your statement, if I may.
7 It is on page [81743], if we could have that up,
8 please, paragraph 56. I wonder could you just have
9 a wee look at that for me, please. (Pause)
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay? The portion of that paragraph where you say:
12 "I understand the prosecution felt Andrea McKee to
13 be an unreliable witness."
14 When you say "the prosecution" there, are you
15 referring to the DPP?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And does that tie in with what you said at paragraph 54
18 about a willingness on the part of DPP to let things
19 drop?
20 A. I was gobsmacked that that prosecution failed. I was
21 totally gobsmacked. We couldn't believe that that
22 failed.
23 Q. Now, can I ask you why were you gobsmacked about that?
24 A. Because there was a lady who was willing to come and
25 give evidence, you know, to say that a police officer
35
1 had helped out people who I believe murdered my brother,
2 at least one of them. I don't know who he fed on to
3 after that. And I felt she was a very important
4 witness.
5 And the fact -- you know, the reason we were given
6 was some sort of a story about some confusion about her
7 kid being sick and what not, and I just didn't feel --
8 I felt it was too important -- for that -- that was too
9 silly of a reason not to let that lady give evidence --
10 to me.
11 Q. All right. Can I ask you this -- if you can answer
12 this, obviously do so; if you can't, then don't -- did
13 you detect any sense of relief on the part of, say,
14 police or the DPP that this prosecution was dropped?
15 A. I wasn't aware of that, no. I just knew it was dropped
16 very easily.
17 MR BERRY: Thanks very much.
18 MR McGRORY: Just one matter which I think the Chairman has
19 already touched upon. I believe the representative of
20 the PPS has a question?
21 MS O'KANE: I don't seek to cross-examine the witness.
22 I represent the Director of Public Prosecutions in these
23 proceedings and it is simply for the record that I would
24 want to make it noted that there will be a series of
25 witnesses from the office of the Public Prosecution
36
1 Service giving evidence in due course in relation to
2 matters raised by both Mrs Hudson and Mrs Ryan. And I
3 make no further comment at this stage.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: If you have anything to challenge in her
5 evidence about it, then it is open to you to do so now,
6 and desirable.
7 MS O'KANE: Thank you, sir. The witness, both this witness
8 and the previous witness, have given evidence in
9 relation to their impression of certain conduct by
10 representatives and members of the office and I prefer
11 to wait, in fact, until those persons concerned can give
12 direct evidence.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand really her reaction to --
14 MS O'KANE: Of course.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: -- others' decisions is really a matter of
16 comment.
17 MS O'KANE: Absolutely.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
19 Questions by MR McGRORY
20 MR McGRORY: I hesitate to rise.
21 One question, Ms Hamill, really, and that is the
22 statement that you signed, I think, towards the end of
23 last week -- is this correct? -- was based on an
24 interview that you had with a former Inquiry solicitor
25 in 2005?
37
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in terms of any analysis of that statement or any
3 additions to it, were you asked to address a specific
4 matter arising from the evidence in recent weeks, in
5 terms of any supplement to that?
6 A. Yes, I was, yes. The specific issue of a person jumping
7 up and down.
8 Q. Yes, can you remember that person's name?
9 A. He was Andrew Hill.
10 Q. Yes. And is that essentially the only matter of detail
11 that you revisited in the context of this statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR McGRORY: Yes. Thank you.
14 Questions by MR THOMPSON
15 MR THOMPSON: My name is Aaron Thompson. I appear on behalf
16 of Andrew Hill. I simply want to pick up on that last
17 point and just ask Mrs Hudson: the issue you were just
18 questioned about about Andrew Hill, was that a situation
19 that you recalled from a statement that you had earlier
20 made? Do you recall the incident of this individual,
21 Andrew Hill, jumping up and down?
22 A. Oh, yes, yes. Twice he did it, yes.
23 Q. Do you recall that based on a statement or do you recall
24 that now today?
25 A. I have never forgot that. It was various people
38
1 throughout Portadown did that to us along with shouting
2 things at us and he was one of them.
3 Q. This individual who you believe to be Andrew Hill,
4 your sister told you it was Andrew Hill; is that right?
5 A. What happened was that I knew his face from travelling
6 down that area of Park Road. I had seen him several
7 times, and an incident happened where he saw me as I was
8 driving past in my car and he jumped up and down. And I
9 didn't know who he was, and then a few days later I was
10 with one of my sisters in my car and he passed me again
11 and I said, "That's the fellow that did that to me,
12 what's his name?" And she told me his name.
13 Q. Which sister was that, Mrs Hudson?
14 A. That would have been xxxxxxxxxx.
15 Q. How long do you think it was between that first sighting
16 and the second sighting with xxxxxxxxxx? You said it was a
17 few days?
18 A. I would always have seen him about, quite regularly.
19 Q. How did you know him, Mrs Hudson?
20 A. xxxxxxxxxx told me his name but I knew him to see.
21 Q. Did you just know him as a boy about the town or did you
22 know him any other way?
23 A. Just as a boy down in the Park Road area.
24 Q. Did you know him as being part of a group of youths or
25 did you know him specifically?
39
1 A. No, I just knew his face. I didn't know anything else about him. I just knew his face to see.
2 Q. Do you remember anything specific about how he looked at
3 the time that drew your attention to him?
4 A. He was just a finely made-up fellow with dark hair.
5 Q. Do you remember for instance what clothes he was wearing?
6 A. No.
7 MR THOMPSON: I have nothing further.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising from that, thank you very
9 much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Monica O'Reilly, please.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you swear the witness, do we have
13 the second page of this?
14 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry about this. It was missed off
15 the system. It is now on the system as [81064A]. You
16 won't have a hard copy, I am afraid.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any hard copies?
18 MR UNDERWOOD: We can get hard copies brought in. I will
19 have that done.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
21 MISS MONICA O'REILLY (sworn)
22 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the Inquiry.
40
1 I have got some questions for you and when I have
2 finished, it may well be that some other people will ask
3 a few of you after that?
4 A. That's okay.
5 Q. May I ask your full names?
6 A. Monica O'Reilly.
7 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at the screen and have
8 a look at [81064]? This is in truth a three-page
9 statement and I'm hoping that as we flick through it, we
10 will see all three pages. Can we just run through them
11 quickly to identify the document. Is that your
12 statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want to ask you a little more detail about this, and
17 if we go back to page [81064] at paragraph 4 you tell us
18 that the branch of the Alliance & Leicester for which
19 you worked was fitted with a number of security cameras.
20 There was only one recorder?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you refer there to a photograph where you say there
23 were four external cameras visible?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And I think perhaps it would help if we have a look at
41
1 that photograph. It is in the virtual reality suite in
2 the photograph album at page 00222. We see the
3 Alliance & Leicester on the right of our screen there.
4 Are the security cameras those black boxes that are
5 above, as it were, the sign writing?
6 A. I think so, yes.
7 Q. And if we go back to your statement, the second page,
8 [81064A], if we pick up the first three paragraphs, you
9 say on the second line:
10 "The cameras operated for 24 hours a day and gave us
11 day and night images of the outside, including some
12 along High Street. To the best of my knowledge, the
13 cameras usually worked at the weekends. I cannot fully
14 remember, but I think there was a weekend setting to
15 enable a longer viewing time on the tape."
16 Then you go on:
17 "No one specific person was responsible for security
18 and CCTV footage. On a daily basis, a member of staff
19 had responsibility for changing the tapes in each
20 camera. I have a feeling that the tapes were changed at
21 5 pm, just before we left the branch for the day. There was
22 one tape for each day of the week and the recordings
23 were kept for up to a week. The tape for a particular
24 day would then be recorded over on the same day of the
25 following week."
42
1 You go on then:
2 "The branch staff would only view the tapes if there
3 had been an incident, for example, if anyone had been
4 stopped."
5 How clear are you now that these cameras did in fact
6 record on to tape and that the tapes were replaced on
7 a daily basis?
8 A. That's correct. That is 100 per cent correct.
9 Q. And looking at paragraph 6, you say when you arrived at
10 work on Monday, 28 April, you were aware there had been
11 a serious assault. And in the second sentence, you say:
12 "Nobody at the branch viewed the tapes at that stage
13 or contacted the police because the incident took place
14 on the street and didn't involve the branch. Then some
15 time later that Monday [the 28th] the police called to
16 the branch and asked to see our tapes for that night.
17 As the most senior member of staff at that time, I dealt
18 with the police. I do not recall who called in or
19 exactly what was required, but I imagine the police made
20 me aware of the purpose of the visit and I handed over
21 whatever they asked for."
22 Did you in fact hand over tapes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as far as you were aware, were they the tapes that
25 would have been recorded over the weekend?
43
1 A. Correct, yes.
2 Q. Have you any reason to believe that there was nothing on
3 those tapes? I mean, that they were blank?
4 A. They wouldn't have been blank. They would have been
5 recording whatever happened over the weekend.
6 Q. And doing the best you can now, can you recall how many
7 tapes there were?
8 A. I think there was two tapes, but I can't be 100 per cent
9 sure because it is such a long time ago. But I think
10 there was two tapes.
11 Q. If we go over the page to [81065], paragraph 8, you
12 say:
13 "I am now informed that when the police viewed the
14 tapes, they did not show any night scenes. I am
15 surprised to hear this because night recordings were
16 precisely the purpose of the tapes and the reason why we
17 carried out the task of changing tapes at the weekend."
18 You earlier on talked about changing tapes at
19 5 o'clock every night?
20 A. Hm-mm.
21 Q. But you also talked about a weekend setting?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What do you mean by "the task of changing tapes at the
24 weekend"?
25 A. At 5 o'clock on the Friday evening you would have put
44
1 a tape into the recorder and the recorder was set up --
2 we didn't set it up, it was automatically set up that it
3 would record a weekend from Friday evening to Monday
4 morning.
5 Q. I understand. Thank you very much.
6 A. Thank you.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: As I say, other people may have more
8 questions for you but that's all I have.
9 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
10 Questions by MR O'HARE
11 MR O'HARE: I have a few questions. In 1997, Miss O'Reilly, you had worked
12 in this branch of the Alliance & Leicester for approximately two years?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Am I correct in saying that apart from the staff loading
15 the tapes and taking the tapes out you had nothing to do
16 actually with the CCTV cameras themselves?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Or the recording equipment?
19 A. Nothing.
20 Q. Yes. Nor did other members of the staff have anything
21 to do --
22 A. No, there was probably a firm come in, but I can't
23 remember who it was. But we had nothing to do with
24 setting them up.
25 Q. No, you had nothing to do with it. Am I right in saying
45
1 also that the purpose of those cameras was for bank
2 security to see if there were any incidents involving
3 the bank, as such?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now you described how you think that those black boxes in
6 photograph 222 were cameras?
7 A. Hm-mm.
8 Q. Do you recall them being cameras?
9 A. I don't recall them being cameras. I know there was
10 cameras outside on the building, but just looking at
11 that photograph, I assume they are cameras.
12 Q. If an incident had happened and the footage from the
13 cameras needed to be looked at, would it be somebody
14 from, say, security at head office who would come?
15 A. Yes, I was just doing temporary manager at the time
16 because our manager was off sick, but somebody from head
17 office would have come from head office to have a look,
18 or from Belfast. Somebody more senior than I.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be helpful to ask what the witness
20 means by "an incident"?
21 A. An incident as in a robbery or someone breaking our
22 windows.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Something to do with the bank?
24 A. Yes, something to do with the bank
25 MR O'HARE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. It was bank business?
46
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If there had have been such an incident, as you say, it
3 would have been somebody from head office and security
4 who would come down to view the tapes?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Am I correct in saying that in the period of time that
7 you were working in this branch of the
8 Alliance & Leicester you had never had occasion to look
9 at the tapes?
10 A. Never.
11 Q. Because if I understand your interview with the Inquiry
12 right, there hadn't been any incident in the period of
13 time that you were there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And am I right in saying then that from the fact that
16 you had never had occasion to look at these tapes, you
17 couldn't say precisely what view these cameras showed?
18 A. Correct.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
20 MR O'HARE: And do you recall why it was two tapes that you
21 give the police?
22 A. I don't know why, but I just had a vague recollection
23 that this was two tapes. But I don't know why there
24 would have been two tapes because, as I say, it was such
25 a long time ago.
47
1 Q. Yes, such a long time ago. Was there any one particular
2 member of staff who was delegated, as it were, to change
3 these tapes?
4 A. No. Whoever went up the stairs at five o'clock in the
5 evening went up and changed the tapes. It was upstairs.
6 Q. Am I correct in saying that you never actually looked at
7 the tapes for the weekend of the 25th, 26th and 27th?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So you can't assist the Inquiry as to what those tapes
10 actually showed?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. In fact, do you recall if you actually changed the tapes
13 that weekend?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Do you recall who did?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Yes. And are you really assuming then the fact the
18 tapes were changed that weekend?
19 A. They would have been.
20 Q. Yes, but you are assuming that?
21 A. I'm assuming that -- it was standard thing to do and it
22 was part of our job, so.
23 Q. Had you ever checked yourself to see if the cameras were
24 working?
25 A. No.
48
1 MR O'HARE: Yes. Thank you, Miss O'Reilly.
2 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
3 Questions by MR O'CONNOR
4 MR O'CONNOR: Can I just ask one question. Were those tapes
5 given back?
6 A. Yes, they were, as far as I'm aware.
7 Q. And the total number of tapes, if they were being used,
8 if you like, that weekend, was two?
9 A. Two -- as far as I can remember -- I can't be sure, but
10 I think it was two.
11 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you. Thank you very
13 much.
14 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do I take it that there was no failsafe
16 system so that if a camera wasn't working, wasn't
17 recording, some alarm was set off?
18 A. No, there would have been no alarm.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't necessarily mean an audio alarm, but
20 nothing to say, "This isn't working"?
21 A. I honestly can't answer your question.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
23 A. I can't remember.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
25 Further questions by MR McGRORY
49
1 MR McGRORY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, something has occurred to
2 me arising out of that question.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
4 MR McGRORY: This may or may not be of value: were there
5 monitors inside the bank also so that the staff could
6 see what was happening outside?
7 A. I don't think so. I really don't think so.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, thank you.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Miss O'Reilly.
10 A. Thank you.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we have one further witness today.
12 I wonder if now might be a time for a break?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well then.
14 (11.06 am)
15 (Short break)
16 (11.32 am)
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Gareth Cust, please.
18 MR GARETH CUST (sworn)
19 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Cust.
21 A. How are you doing.
22 Q. My name is Underwood. I'm Counsel to the Inquiry. I'm
23 going to ask you some questions and when I have finished
24 other people may have a few for you.
25 A. Great.
50
1 Q. Can I ask you your full names, please?
2 A. It's Gareth Cust.
3 Q. We are asking about events on 26 and 27 April 1997. How
4 old were you then?
5 A. 12.
6 Q. I think some time that night you were out with some
7 friends, Kyle Woods, Simon McNally and Andrew Hill; is
8 that right?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. What we are interested in is what happened at the
11 junction of the main road with Thomas Street and
12 Woodhouse Street.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. And we know that there was fighting there, that there
15 was an attack, from which Robert Hamill died some days
16 later.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That there were police at the scene at some point, and
19 what the Inquiry is interested in in particular is at
20 what stage the police got out of the Land Rover in
21 relation to the attack on Mr Hamill. Do you understand?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So what I want you to help us with if you can is what,
24 if anything, you saw. We have got a map in front of us
25 on the screen. You can see there that West Street comes
51
1 from left to right up into Market Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you see St Mark's church there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where were you coming from on the night?
6 A. I was coming from West Street, you know, down
7 West Street towards the church.
8 Q. Okay. How far did you get?
9 A. I would -- I was just -- I think it was just the front
10 of it, from what I can remember, like.
11 Q. Just in front of the church?
12 A. Just in front of the church.
13 Q. And what did you see?
14 A. There was police, the police Land Rover. There was
15 like -- there wasn't many people about whenever I got
16 down, you know.
17 Q. Okay. Can I just stop you there? We have got a model.
18 Let me show you that.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This is the photograph taken from outside Eastwoods
21 clothing shop. If we could swivel round to the left,
22 you can see up to the church there. If we go back round
23 to the Land Rover -- don't take it from us that the Land
24 Rover was there, we have just put the Land Rover there
25 in the picture to see whether people can help us with
52
1 whether that's accurate or not. When you say you saw
2 a police Land Rover, was it there or was it somewhere
3 else?
4 A. I think it was up outside Instep, the shop there, as far
5 as I can remember.
6 Q. Okay. Do you know there is a lay-by there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it in the lay-by?
9 A. I think so, yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, we know that at some point the Land Rover
11 moved from the lay-by there and that the occupants of
12 the Land Rover had a discussion, or some of them,
13 a discussion with a man who crossed the street and that
14 was before the fighting broke out.
15 Now, can you help us with whether you saw the Land
16 Rover move?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Sorry, I interrupted you to show you this. You were
19 telling me that there were a few people about but not
20 many. Can you tell us what was happening?
21 A. Nothing much.
22 Q. Did you hear any shouting?
23 A. There was a wee bit of shouting, you know, stuff like
24 that there.
25 Q. Sectarian stuff or just ordinary drunken banter?
53
1 A. Not that I remember, like. It wouldn't come into my
2 head that it was stuff like that.
3 Q. Okay. Did you see any fighting?
4 A. Not -- not fighting, not -- standing kicking someone on
5 the street, like.
6 Q. Sorry, I didn't catch that?
7 A. Standing kicking somebody on the street, like.
8 Q. Can you help us on here -- I can give you something
9 called a screen shot on this. It will just take
10 a second. It will give you a chance to mark something
11 on the screen for us. Right. There is a white pen,
12 I hope, attached to the computer there. Could you mark
13 on the screen for us where you think you saw people
14 kicking at someone?
15 A. It's more or less where the pen is there. I'm sorry.
16 Right there.
17 Q. Okay. Did you only see one person on the ground?
18 A. On the ground? No, sorry, I didn't see --
19 Q. Tell us about the kicking. Were they kicking
20 somebody --
21 A. From what I can remember, I was -- they could have on
22 further back on down the town or -- you know.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I haven't much memory of it, you know.
25 Q. I'm getting myself confused. This red mark you have
54
1 given us here -- it doesn't have to be precisely
2 accurate -- but it is around there you saw somebody
3 being kicked; is that right?
4 A. No, I didn't see nobody being kicked.
5 Q. What did you see?
6 A. There was people coming up from the town, you know,
7 through the town.
8 Q. And I asked you whether you had seen fighting and you
9 said not really?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And scuffling or something like that?
12 A. It was just what you would normally see in Portadown on
13 a Saturday.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: What was that?
16 A. That was rowdiness and, you know, the police normally
17 sit about town in Portadown centre at night, like, and
18 stuff like that there.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you see any police out on the street?
20 A. No, I can't remember seeing any police out on the
21 street, no.
22 Q. And what were you doing? Were you sitting at the Summer
23 Seats or standing up, or what?
24 A. We had walked down from the thing towards the Summer
25 Seats at the church, you know, so we had, and we only
55
1 stood for maybe -- it wasn't very long, from what I can
2 remember, like.
3 Q. Had you been into town on other Saturday nights?
4 A. After that?
5 Q. No, before this?
6 A. I can't remember really.
7 Q. Because you told us that you saw what you would normally
8 see there on a Saturday night. Was it just famous for
9 rowdiness or had you seen it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can I get you to look at a couple of witness statements
12 so that you can perhaps have your memory jogged. If we
13 look at page [09131], this is, I think, Andrew Hill and
14 it is a statement of 21 May 1997. He says that on
15 26 April he was at Simon McNally's house and he goes on
16 to say he was there with Kyle Woods and you. You are
17 P44 in this.
18 A. Hm-mm.
19 Q. And then, going down the page, just over halfway down,
20 he talks about some of the group went into the Chinese:
21 "I stood outside with [you] and Kyle. When the
22 other ones came out, we all started to walk towards the
23 town centre for a walk. We walked down through McGowan
24 Buildings to the big church. We all sat down on the
25 summer seats at the front of the church. I don't know
56
1 what time we arrived at the church. I wasn't wearing
2 a watch. I remember seeing a police Land Rover parked
3 facing down the street. It was parked at the Halifax
4 Building Society. I didn't see any police standing
5 about the Land Rover."
6 Then he says: [09132]
7 "I think there were a few members of the public
8 standing around the Land Rover. I then heard shouting.
9 I heard, 'Orange bastards, this is our town' and 'Up the
10 RA'. I looked down the street and I could see
11 a scuffle at the junction with Woodhouse Street and
12 Thomas Street. There were about 10 to 12 people in the
13 scuffle, but they weren't all fighting. I didn't see
14 any punches being thrown and I didn't see anybody lying
15 on the street. I didn't recognise anybody in the
16 scuffle. I was only sitting on the summer seat for
17 about five minutes before the scuffle started. I got up
18 and started to run back up the street..."
19 And "... [you], Kyle and Simon ran with me."
20
21 Does that help you remember sectarian shouting and
22 scuffling?
23 A. Not really, no.
24 Q. Okay. If we look at page [09133], this is Kyle Woods'
25 statement and he tells us that he was with the rest of
57
1 the group. And if we pick this up about halfway down,
2 he says you got to the church, and he says:
3 "We didn't go any further than that. I saw a crowd
4 of people in the centre of the town. There was a police
5 Land Rover at the Alliance & Leicester and a crowd
6 coming up towards it from the bottom of the town. There
7 were people standing at the Land Rover talking to the
8 policemen. There was a boy, he was fat, and he was
9 shouting, 'Tiocfaidh ar la'. I don't really remember
10 what happened next, but I do recall seeing two people
11 lying on the ground at about Eastwoods and the crowd
12 punching and kicking at them. I also heard glass
13 breaking, but I didn't see anyone throwing any bottles.
14 I saw police trying to push the crowd back. The
15 atmosphere was very intense and I didn't want to be
16 there."
17 How did you miss that?
18 A. What's that?
19 Q. How did you miss that?
20 A. I must have been walking behind him or something, just
21 whatever it says in my statement, you know.
22 Q. Your statement is at page [09162]. Let's have a look at
23 that. You say you were with Kyle Woods, Andrew Hill and
24 Simon McNally. And then in about the fourth line, you
25 say:
58
1 "At about 1 am, we went down to the Chinese at
2 Jervis Street. We got something to eat and stayed about
3 it for a while. While we were there, we heard sirens.
4 The sound was coming from the town centre. We walked
5 down past McGowan Buildings to see what was happening.
6 I saw a police Land Rover or police car with its lights
7 flashing and an ambulance. We stood there for a while
8 and went back to Simon's house and stayed there all
9 night."
10 So back then you recalled seeing a police car with
11 lights flashing and an ambulance. Do you remember the
12 ambulance now?
13 A. No, not really.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. I have no further questions,
15 thank you.
16 MR FERGUSON: No, questions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
18 Questions by MR ADAIR
19 MR ADAIR: I just want to clear up something, possibly
20 because you dropped your voice, possibly because you were
21 misunderstood by Mr Underwood. When you were asked
22 a question, "Did you see fighting?", I think I picked
23 you up saying you didn't see fighting, you didn't see
24 anything like somebody being kicked on the street or
25 anything like that.
59
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So what you are saying is you didn't see that happen?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When you say no, you did not see anybody being kicked in
5 the street?
6 A. My memory, you know -- not that I can remember anybody
7 seeing -- just my statement is there, like, you know.
8 Q. If we call up your statement again just briefly, please,
9 at [09162], we can see that was made on 18 May 1997.
10 Now, is that statement true?
11 A. More or less, yes.
12 Q. What's less about it? Is it true or not true?
13 A. Yes, it is true.
14 Q. Well, is it the situation then that whenever you arrived
15 in the Market Street/High Street area, you had already
16 heard sirens? If you read the top of the statement:
17 "At about 1 am we went down to the Chinese at
18 Jervis Street. We got something to eat and stayed about
19 it for a while. While we were there, we heard sirens."
20 Is that right?
21 A. Hm-mm.
22 Q. Is that true?
23 A. Possibly, yes.
24 Q. "The sound was coming from the town centre. We walked
25 past McGowan Buildings to see what was happening."
60
1 And you saw a police Land Rover or police car with
2 its lights flashing and an ambulance?
3 A. Hm-mm.
4 Q. Was that the first thing you saw when you arrived?
5 A. We were standing there for five minutes or so, like.
6 Q. All I'm trying to discover was, was the ambulance there
7 when you arrived or did it arrive when you were there?
8 A. There was an ambulance after we left, so there was.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: After you left where?
10 A. We walked back up, you know.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: From the church?
12 A. Yes. There was an ambulance coming back down. There
13 was an ambulance there, like, obviously.
14 MR ADAIR: Did you not see this big crowd on the street
15 trying to get past the police and so on? Did you not
16 see any of that?
17 A. Not that I can remember, no.
18 Q. Did you not see the police trying to push the crowd up
19 in a line up the street?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you not see what was effectively a mini riot
22 going on?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you looking down at the scene?
25 A. I can't remember.
61
1 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
2 Questions by MR BERRY
3 MR BERRY: You were with Kyle Woods, Andrew Hill and
4 Simon McNally that night?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I don't intend to go into your statements in detail with
7 you, but from what they are saying, certainly Mr Woods
8 and Mr McNally, you all left to go down to the Chinese
9 firstly?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And at that stage it appears that Mr Hill met two people
12 there or thereabouts at the Chinese. Can you remember
13 that?
14 A. There was a couple of people at the Chinese, really.
15 Q. Do the names Lisa Hobson and Wayne Lunt mean anything to
16 you?
17 A. I only know them from about Portadown, you know.
18 Q. Were those the people that Mr Hill met?
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. You can't remember. Can you remember, when you went
21 down to the Summer Seats, who exactly was with you? Can
22 you remember?
23 A. It had to have been with Simon and Kyle. You know, I
24 was staying at Simon's house that night, you know.
25 Q. It is just that Mr McNally I think in a statement to the
62
1 police said that after the encounter at the Chinese that
2 he recounts that:
3 "Gareth, Kyle and I walked along West Street down to
4 the Summer Seats."
5 He seems to be saying it was simply you, Mr McNally
6 and Kyle Woods?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would that be right?
9 A. Maybe just -- we were all together, but we just walked
10 at different times though, like, something like that.
11 Q. You can't remember specifically if Mr Hill was with you
12 at the Summer Seats?
13 A. No.
14 MR BERRY: Thank you.
15 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free to go, Mr Cust.
18 A. Thank you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the live evidence for today.
20 There is one statement that it may be helpful to read at
21 this stage and that's of a Father Sean Dooley. We find
22 that at page [80242]. In paragraph 2, he tells us that:
23 "Between September 1992 and September 2000 I was
24 attached to the Parish of Drumcree in Portadown."
25 At paragraph 4 he says:
63
1 "On 11 May 1997, I received an anonymous telephone
2 call about the Robert Hamill murder. I think the caller
3 phoned earlier while I was out and asked for me by name.
4 On this occasion, I answered the phone. To get a call
5 like that around 9 o'clock in the evening was most
6 unexpected. I wasn't sure of the identity of the person,
7 whom I may have encountered in my duties, or if it was
8 somebody just trying to cause trouble because Portadown
9 was in such a situation at the time that this could have
10 been somebody from a militant wing of the Nationalist
11 community trying to stir up trouble, maybe trying to get
12 me to pass on information for them. I still don't know
13 who made the call, but I assumed it was a policeman
14 because of the amount of information he had. He
15 said that there were four officers in the Land
16 Rover and that they were sleeping. They had been on duty
17 since 4 pm and were on overtime but didn't want to be
18 there. I wrote down what the person said on two small
19 bits of green paper and then I sat down the next morning
20 and wrote it out longhand on pieces of A4 paper.
21 I changed two small bits of it afterwards.
22 "I was given two names, one I thought was 'Handy'
23 when I picked it up on the phone, and I discovered
24 afterwards from watching the news that it was Hanvey.
25 The other was Stacey Bridgett's name. I had spelt it
64
1 with one T, but I discovered afterwards there were two
2 Ts in it, so I changed that. Then, some short time
3 afterwards I've written down in different coloured pen
4 some of the questions that were being asked by the
5 people in the area at the time; for example, the family.
6 The questions I have written down were, 'Why were
7 the police not doing something?' 'Why were they there
8 if they weren't going to help?' 'Why did they allow
9 this to happen?' 'Why did they not intervene?' And then I
10 have written down the number for the Independent
11 Commission for Police Complaints for Northern Ireland.
12 I was thinking about contacting them, but I didn't.
13 I have also written 'How many girls were in the group of
14 Protestants?', but I don't know why I wrote that."
15 And he produces the notes. We see the first two
16 pieces of paper at page [72782] and over the page, and
17 the A4 pieces we find at [72786]. Perhaps we could look
18 at those, and we see it is 9 pm, 21:16, at the top and
19 four officers in the Land Rover sleeping:
20 "... had been on duty since 4 pm plus were on
21 overtime but didn't want to be there. One of the
22 officers owns/runs a club at the top of the Brownstown
23 Road, Jameson's Enterprises - Atkinson by name.
24
25 "One of the those arrested, Handy (Hanvey), is
65
1 involved in this Karate club and it was he who felled
2 Robert. The police officers were wakened by the two
3 girls (with Robert). They saw people jumping on Robert's
4 head. (Name Stacey Bridget) -- charged. There were three
5 men plus one woman in the Land Rover. The woman was
6 unable/useless to help/act. There are two weak links
7 in this team -- woman and a man officer (not Atkinson)."
8 Then over the page [72787]:
9 "They were detailed to be there -- to protect the
10 people coming from St Patrick's."
11 Then "neglect of duty" underlined:
12 "Back-up out in the country. It should have been in
13 town, but was not."
14 Then in different ink:
15 "These are some of the questions being asked by
16 people of the area."
17 Then as the statement says, they refer the notes
18 about the ICPC and girls in the Protestants.
19 There is, I think, nothing else we can usefully deal
20 with before the anonymity question is concluded and
21 I apprehend from a very helpful discussion I have had
22 with my friend for the police that we are close to
23 identifying a witness who could come and assist you on
24 that the first day after Easter that we are back. So
25 with that, I have no more evidence to lead today.
66
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we shall adjourn until 23 April.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: I think it is 23rd, yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10.30 on 23 April.
4 (11.55 am)
5 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am on 23 April 2009)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
67
1 I N D E X
2
MS FIONA HAMILL (sworn) .......................... 1
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 1
4
Questions by MR O'CONNOR ..................... 6
5
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 10
6
MRS DIANE HUDSON (sworn) ......................... 11
7
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 11
8
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 17
9
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 27
10
Questions by MR O'CONNOR ..................... 27
11
Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 35
12
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 37
13
Questions by MR THOMPSON ..................... 38
14
MISS MONICA O'REILLY (sworn) ..................... 40
15
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 40
16
Questions by MR O'HARE ....................... 45
17
Questions by MR O'CONNOR ..................... 49
18
Questions by THE CHAIRMAN .................... 49
19
Further questions by MR McGRORY .............. 49
20
MR GARETH CUST (sworn) ........................... 50
21
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 50
22
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 59
23
Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 62
24
25
68
