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Hearing: 26th March 2009, day 34

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Thursday, 26 March 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 34

1 Thursday, 26 March 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (10.40 am)

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. Sir, can I have witness P40,

6 please?

7 P40 (sworn)

8 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. My name is Underwood and I'm

10 Counsel to the inquiry. I will be asking questions to

11 start with. At the end of that, some other people may

12 have some questions for you.

13 Can I start by getting you to look at a statement at

14 page [81146]? There are seven pages of this. If we

15 scroll through the seven pages quite quickly, I just

16 want you to see whether it is your statement. Is that

17 your statement?

18 A. I think so, yes.

19 Q. And is it true?

20 A. It should be.

21 Q. Is it true to the best of your ability?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you some additional questions

24 about it so we can clarify some matters, and to start

25 with can we go back to page [81146]. At paragraph 2,

1 you tell us that you made a statement to the police on

2 27 April 1997, which is at pages [00695] to [00696], and

3 that that statement is true to the best of your

4 knowledge and belief. Perhaps we could just have a look

5 at that at page [00695]. Can we highlight the text?

6 I want to read the substance of this to you and then

7 ask you some questions about it, if I may. Picking it

8 up from the third line:

9 "On Sunday, 27 April 1997, I was in uniform and

10 accompanied by Constables ..."

11 Now, we are giving these people ciphers. Take it from

12 me, at the moment they are [Constable Neill], [Reserve

13 Constable Cornett] and [Reserve Constable Atkinson]. And you will

14 be given a list the ciphers if you need it as we go through:

15 "... in a Land Rover on public order duties in

16 Portadown town centre. At approximately 01:43 hours, we

17 were stopped at the junction of

18 Woodhouse Street/Market Street with the front of the

19 Land Rover pointing in the direction of the Halifax

20 Building Society. At this time, we were talking to two

21 male youths, one of whom I know as Stacey. A short time

22 later, a man who was approximately 35 to 40 years old

23 and wearing a navy shirt and dark-coloured trousers

24 informed Reserve Constable Cornett

1 that his mates were coming from St Pat's Hall

2 towards the town centre. At this time, I noted a crowd

3 of approx 25 persons walking from the direction of

4 Wellworths' shop in the direction of Church Street.

5 I heard shouting coming from the direction of

6 Thomas Street and informed Constable Neill.

8 A male person then opened Constable Neill's door and

9 started pulling at his arm and shouting at him. We then

10 got out of the Land Rover and I noted that there was

11 a crowd of approximately 50 youths and men. There were

12 several fights taking place..."

13 It goes on, but that's the substance of what I want

14 to ask you about because what you are telling us there,

15 or what you said to the detectives in that statement,

16 was this sequence: that you were stopped, you were

17 talking to two males, one of whom was Stacey?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then the man in the navy shirt came and told you his

20 mates were coming up. Then at that stage you saw

21 a crowd and you heard shouting and you informed the

22 driver, Constable Neill, then that driver's door was

23 opened. Then you got out and you saw fighting.

24 Now, are you clear about that sequence?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Because I know you have been interviewed about it on

2 a number of occasions and I know that it has been put to

3 you in interview that the other three in the Land Rover

4 got a different sequence.

5 Let me put this to you: the sequence that they set

6 out in statements was that the vehicle was moving and

7 this man in the blue shirt stopped the vehicle and

8 warned the officers about his mates coming up from

9 St Pat's and then you started talking to the two youths.

10 What do you say about that?

11 A. I can only go with what I have written down.

12 Q. Okay. And another distinction between what you said in

13 your statement and what other people have said is that

14 other officers say that when the driver was pulled out

15 and you all got out and saw what was going on, there was

16 no fighting going on. What do you say about that?

17 A. That word "fighting" I think I did change later on.

18 Fighting implies punches and things like that there. It

19 was more scuffling.

20 Q. I think later on you were saying that you didn't

21 actually see any punching at all?

22 A. No, there was no fighting.

23 Q. So what I'm anxious to get from you is this, though: it

24 didn't develop into fighting after you got out,

25 according to your statement, because what you say in

1 your statement is what was going on was already going on

2 by the time you got out. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Right. If we go over the page in this statement, it is

5 at page [00696] -- again, let's highlight all the text,

6 if we may -- you say in the top couple of lines:

7 "The male who was wearing the navy shirt and dark

8 trousers came over to me and shouted, 'What the fuck are

9 you going to do?'"

10 Are you sure that was the same man that came to you

11 and warned about his mates?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you sure when you wrote the statement?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Because I know that you were on a long shift, an

16 extended shift in fact. You went off duty at 3 or

17 4 o'clock in the morning, you were called back in from

18 your bed at 6 o'clock or so and you make this statement

19 then tired, having been dragged our your bed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But what you said in the statement is it is the same man

22 who had warned you about St Pat's and who then came up

23 to you. Can you help us with about how clear you would

24 have been when you wrote it?

25 A. I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say it was the

1 same man.

2 Q. Not now, I understand that. But why did you write it in

3 this way then?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. All right. There are a couple of other things I want to

6 ask you about on this page of the statement. In about

7 the middle of it, there is a line:

8 "I observed one of the males in the crowd. This

9 male had very short black hair, black moustache ..."

10 Et cetera. Are you with you me?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "... goatee-type beard. He was approx 5'9"

13 tall, was of stocky build. He had a black leather

14 jacket and was wearing blue jeans. This male [had] been

15 very aggressive and was taunting the Nationalists and

16 had to be physically moved back several times."

17 You were never asked, I think, to attend an

18 identification parade or a confrontation or look at

19 mugshots of this person. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you get a clear enough view of him that if you had,

22 for example, a week or two later been asked to attend

23 a confrontation or an ID parade you would have been able

24 to pick him out?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. I want to show you some models and photographs and plans

2 so that we can establish as best we can where you say

3 events happened. So if we can go to police vehicles'

4 positions in our virtual reality? You see here we have

5 a plan and here we have, if you see LR1, LR2 and LR3 in

6 these boxes -- can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This arose out of a reconstruction that was held on

9 10 June 1997, and LR1 is a position which officers told

10 the mappers the Land Rover had been parked in. That's

11 a lay-by outside Clarks shoe shop. LR2 is a position

12 where officers -- not you, but other officers -- told

13 the mappers the vehicle was when the man in the blue

14 shirt flagged it down, waved it down. And LR3 is

15 a position where the officers told the mappers the

16 vehicle ended up and where it remained when the talking

17 was going on to the two males, one of whom was Stacey.

18 Now, can you help us about these positions and

19 whether you say that the Land Rover was in any of those

20 at any time?

21 A. I can agree with LR1 because that's where I stopped to

22 have a smoke. And -- I thought we talked to the two

23 youths on up -- after the junction. I have that in my

24 head and I don't know -- I have that much in my head, I

25 don't know where the truth of it is.

1 Q. To be fair to you, a number of officers told this

2 Inquiry that when they arrived, the Land Rover was

3 outside the Halifax. Is that what you are suggesting to

4 us?

5 A. Where is the Halifax?

6 Q. That's the corner place opposite the

7 Alliance & Leicester. I tell you what, let's have

8 a look at a model. Here you can see the Land Rover in

9 what is in fact position LR3. You can see the Halifax

10 there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it around there or further back?

13 A. I thought, when Stacey stuck his head in, we were about

14 there.

15 Q. About at the Halifax?

16 A. Yes, I thought in my head. I don't know where the truth

17 of it is.

18 Q. All right. Can I ask you on that, what was the purpose,

19 apart from having a smoke, of a Land Rover full of

20 officers being parked at the lay-by?

21 A. Well, the practicality, I suppose, was that the people

22 in the front were still watching the flash area,

23 whatever you are going to call it.

24 Q. Okay. Now, if we go back into the police vehicle

25 positions, we can see a video through the windows at

1 positions LR2 and LR3. Let's have a look at LR2 to

2 start with.

3 I'm sorry, it is my fault for directing the VR

4 wrongly. We need to go through this from police vehicle

5 positions, vehicle videos through windows. And if we

6 take LR2. Can you help us -- what we have got here is

7 a set of positions from which clips of video were taken.

8 And you can see there is a viewing position set out in

9 various parts of the Land Rover. Can you tell us where

10 you were in the Land Rover?

11 A. I would have been where the single eye is in the corner

12 between the back door and that hole --

13 Q. Behind the driver?

14 A. Behind the driver at the extremity of the seat.

15 Q. Behind the driver and what?

16 A. As far back into the seat.

17 Q. I see. So you weren't able to see out of the side

18 window; is that right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could you see out of the back window?

21 A. Very little.

22 Q. Whatever the view was, were you able to see the back

23 window?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let's go to position LR3 in that case. Here we have got

1 no particular position in which you were, but if we take

2 the position that's on the other side of the Land Rover,

3 looking out of the back window -- just see how limited

4 that view is -- could you see anything like that view?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Worse than that?

7 A. Yes.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Just help me, Mr Underwood. This is as if I

9 were sitting on the nearside of the vehicle looking

10 through the offside rear door?

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.

12 SIR JOHN EVANS: No, it is not, is it? That's the offside

13 side window.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Offside rear window.

15 SIR JOHN EVANS: It is a rear window?

16 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. If we just see the snap at the top

17 right-hand corner, sir.

18 SIR JOHN EVANS: Yes, sorry.

19 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm not suggesting that was your view, of

20 course, because your suggestion was that you were never

21 at that position, LR3.

22 A. No.

23 Q. You were at a position further down --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- from the Halifax.

1 A. I was sitting --

2 Q. And you were on the offside anyway?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I understand. Now, there are some other documents

5 I want you to look at about your account of what

6 happened when everyone got out. Can we start with

7 page [39201]?

8 Let me tell you what's going on here. This is

9 a part of a report on you and it is a sort of running

10 report because it deals with a series of interviews you

11 had with the doctor. I'm not interested in any of the

12 medical side of it, what I'm interested in is what you

13 have told the doctor and to ask you to comment on that.

14 Looking at page [39201], as we have got on the

15 screen here, this is part of an account given by the

16 doctor of an interview he had with you --

17 a consultation, I should call it -- on 12 August 1997.

18 And what he says in the first paragraph of you is:

19 "He told me he did not witness the killing, but he

20 did see the body covered in blood."

21 Did you see a body covered in blood?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Your account in your statement is that when you got out

24 and you saw fighting or scuffling, you saw no bodies on

25 the ground at all?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And it is only later, when you were dealing with people

3 at the Woodhouse Street entrance, that you saw some

4 people on the ground?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Has this doctor just got it wrong there or did you tell

7 him that you saw a body covered in blood?

8 A. The only time I could have seen a body covered in blood

9 was whenever I went over to the other side.

10 Q. Sorry, did you see a body covered in blood at all?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How has the doctor got to say that? Did he get it from

13 you or has he simply got it wrong?

14 A. I didn't tell him.

15 Q. Just going on in that paragraph:

16 "He ..."

17 That is you:

18 "... told me that the worst aspect of the situation

19 was the loss of life, the helplessness and not being

20 able to do anything."

21 Did you tell him that?

22 A. I don't even know what doctor you are talking about.

23 Q. If you want to, out of fairness, we can look at more of

24 this. This is a report which was put together for your

25 solicitors. If we look at the first page of it -- and

1 there is a lot of it that is blacked out, so it may be

2 a bit alien to you. Can we look at page [39198]? And

3 the last page -- again, it is very blacked out -- is at

4 [39205].

5 Now, I suspect that this was a document put together

6 for your solicitors for the purposes of some sort of

7 claim, PTSD or similar?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Well, if we look at [39198] again, look at the passage

10 there that isn't blanked out:

11 "I interviewed P40 on 12 August 1997."

12 And a number of other dates:

13 "I understand he is claiming compensation following

14 his involvement in a fatal assault at Portadown on

15 27 April 1997."

16 Did you claim compensation arising out of the

17 incident?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So this report, whether or not you have seen it

20 before -- I don't know. Did you? Have you seen it

21 before?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. But this is the psychiatrist telling us what

24 it is you told him in these various interviews for this

25 claim. And if we go back to [39201], that first

1 paragraph, that second sentence of that:

2 "He told me that the worst aspect of the situation

3 was the loss of life, the helplessness and not being

4 able to do anything."

5 Never mind when you told the psychiatrist that for

6 the moment, was it your feeling after 27 April that --

7 A. It still is.

8 Q. -- you felt helpless and you felt unable to do anything?

9 A. Looking back, any loss of life is bad. You know, I have

10 never been involved in anything like that there.

11 Q. I'm not suggesting you are being callous about the loss

12 of life. What I'm interested in here is whether you

13 felt helpless and unable to do anything?

14 A. That was obviously made -- looking back.

15 Q. All right. If we look at page [39203], we can see that

16 the second half of the page deals with an interview on

17 10 April 2000, and looking at the passage after the

18 first black section, it says:

19 "I enquired further about his reaction at the time

20 of the Hamill incident. He said that it was 'nothing out

21 of the ordinary'. He said that about a week later, he

22 started to experience disturbance of his sleep. He said

23 he had dreams and sweating. 'I know now it was guilt.'

24 He said he asked himself whether he could have fired

25 a shot to disperse the crowd."

1 Is that right, that you were feeling guilty after

2 this because you thought you could have done more?

3 A. Yes, survivor's guilt.

4 Q. Is survivor's guilt something you have picked up during

5 the course of these various interviews as a phrase?

6 A. No, I'm now a qualified counsellor, so I have come

7 across it.

8 Q. You were saying at the time to this psychiatrist that

9 you asked yourself specifically whether you could have

10 fired a shot to disperse the crowd. Was that something

11 you were concerned about?

12 A. Whenever you've been lying in bed, waking, seeing

13 something so many times, so many angles, you know,

14 everything gets mixed up. You wonder if you do this, if

15 you had have done that there, you know, if things had

16 been different could you have -- could you have helped

17 the fellow.

18 Q. All right, let's pick that up. What was your resolution

19 of that? Would it have been useful to have fired

20 a shot?

21 A. I don't think. I don't think so.

22 Q. Let's go on, if we go further down:

23 "He told me he had been in the back of the Land

24 Rover at the time of the incident. He saw two fellows

25 lying on the road. One of them was lying in a pool of

1 blood with a broken bottle to one side."

2 That is your second reference in an interview with

3 this psychiatrist about the pool of blood. Are you

4 clear that you didn't tell the psychiatrist about blood?

5 A. That pool of blood could have been what the contents of

6 the bottle as well.

7 Q. If we go over the page, at [39204], you are asked about

8 your reaction at the time in the first line:

9 "And he said ..."

10 That's you:

11 "... 'I can't remember having any reaction'. P40

12 told me that, having decided not to intervene, he had

13 not been in severe danger from the crowd."

14 Did you tell the psychiatrist that?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. This is your psychiatrist instructed for the purposes of

17 making your claim for compensation arising out of this

18 and he has recorded that you see a body covered in

19 blood, a pool of blood, and you having a decision not to

20 intervene and feeling guilty.

21 Now, has he made this up? Were you over-egging the

22 pudding in order to get compensation, or was all this

23 true? You know that there is a very grave concern,

24 don't you, that the four in the Land Rover allowed

25 Mr Hamill to be murdered while they sat there? And here

1 you are saying to your own psychiatrist:

2 "Having decided not to intervene, he had not been in

3 severe danger from the crowd."

4 Apparently you tell your psychiatrist this. Did you

5 tell him?

6 A. I don't know what I told him.

7 Q. Let's go further down:

8 "He said this had made him realise that he had

9 a decision to make at the time of his involvement in the

10 incident and he had decided to save his own life."

11 What do you say about that? Did you tell the

12 psychiatrist that?

13 A. I can't -- it wasn't black and white. That's his --

14 that's what he has derived out of whatever I have said.

15 Q. As a counsellor, do you write reports on people?

16 A. Not yet, no.

17 Q. Not yet? Have you been trained partially as

18 a counsellor then?

19 A. I'm in the process, yes.

20 Q. And is it, in your understanding, important, when taking

21 a history, when you are counselling somebody, to get it

22 accurate?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you any reason to believe that the psychiatrist you

25 saw was incompetent?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Let's have a look at page [09385], if we may. This is

3 part of a disciplinary interview that you had, and I'm

4 sorry to say that the clip of it we have doesn't start

5 with the date.

6 Let me just see if I can get back to the first part

7 of the first page. It is 8 September 1997. This is the

8 Independent Commission for Police Complaints

9 interviewing you about the neglect complaint. If we

10 look at page [09385], about a third of the way down the

11 page, there is a question:

12 "Are you saying it would have been physically

13 impossible for the four of you ..."

14 That's the four in the Land Rover:

15 "... or the three of you and one woman, to stop the

16 crowd?

17 "Answer: Yes. Well, at the end of the day if we

18 got -- if we'd have -- my wife could have been walking

19 behind a coffin as well, so she could have, if I had

20 been in the middle of that..."

21 What was the meaning of that answer?

22 A. When you are waking up with sweat running down your back

23 and you have been trampled on, you have been kicked, you

24 have been shot, you sort of get -- that's where that

25 came from.

1 Q. Yes. Of course. None of that happened on the night of

2 27 April, did it? And I fully understand that you might

3 well have been through other traumatic experiences in

4 your police career. Is what you were saying here: that

5 you held back because of a fear that something like that

6 would happen to you on the 27th?

7 A. No, that's your interpretation.

8 Q. Well, what's your interpretation of your answer to

9 a question:

10 "Are you saying it would have been physically

11 impossible for you to stop the crowd?"

12 And your answer is:

13 "At the end of the day, if we had have ... my wife

14 could have been walking behind a coffin ..."?

15 A. What I'm saying in retrospect is that -- you know,

16 looking at it -- four people could not have held, you

17 know, that crowd back. It just ...

18 Q. While we are on this page, can I just ask you about the

19 middle of it? You are being asked:

20 "During this whole fracas, you saw no blows being

21 struck?"

22 And you say:

23 "No, I didn't."

24 Are you with me:

25 "How many people did you recognise out of this

1 crowd?"

2 And you say:

3 "By name, there was -- there was only a couple of

4 them I know by name, but I know them all to see."

5 I asked you before about the man with a goatee beard

6 and if you had been asked to attend an ID parade or been

7 shown mugshots, you would have been able to pick him out

8 as a result of what you had been able to see of him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would that have been true as well of some other people

11 that you recognised to see but didn't know by name?

12 A. Possibly, yes.

13 Q. I know this is gruelling, do you want to break?

14 A. Please.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Quarter of an hour.

16 (11.10 am)

17 (Short break)

18 (11.36 am)

19 MR UNDERWOOD: I want to ask you to look at page [46055],

20 please. This is a report that you made to a sergeant on

21 12 May 1997, and it says:

22 "I am detailed to attend public order training on

23 24 May 1997. I am at present having problems with my

24 right knee. This is as a result of an injury on duty on

25 12 October 1996, which forced me to take 15 weeks sick

2 leave. I feel that because of the physical nature of the

3 course and as it is approximately 12 hours in duration

4 that it would further aggravate my injury. I therefore

5 respectfully request that my name be withdrawn from the

6 list for this course."

7 If we go down under the words "Subdivisional

8 Commander, Portadown", number 2:

9 "I have taken Reserve Constable P40 off the list

10 for public order training pending medical advice.

11 "3. I recommend he be referred to Occupational

12 Health Unit for assessment."

13 Is it right that in October 1996 you had had to have

14 15 weeks off because of a knee injury?

15 A. 1996. Yes.

16 Q. Is it right that that was still causing you concerns

17 in May of 1997?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So were you fit to be out and about in a riot

20 in April 1997?

21 A. That's not for me to say.

22 Q. In April 1997, was it a concern of yours that you could

23 aggravate the injury or somehow collapse if you got

24 involved in a dust-up?

25 A. I never thought about it.

1 Q. Okay. But you thought about it very quickly afterwards

2 in May when you were offered this public order training,

3 and what the Panel may be wondering is whether it was on

4 your mind on the night of 27 April that if you got out

5 into the middle of a fight, you would be crocked. What

6 do you say?

7 A. I can't remember being in ...

8 Q. I want to ask you about this aspect of the statement you

9 have given and the various statements you have given

10 when you have been interviewed about this incident.

11 Overall the impression given in your statements is

12 that what you saw wasn't fighting, it was scuffling.

13 That's right, isn't it? But we have seen from the

14 medical reports that you were very concerned, and we

15 have seen also from that disciplinary interview you were

16 very concerned about what might happen to you if you got

17 involved in it and how four officers might well have

18 been overwhelmed.

19 Can I ask to you tell us, what was actually going

20 on? Was it a frightening situation?

21 A. You only learn in retrospect how things are frightening.

22 Yes, it is like being in car accident. Are you afraid

23 when it happens. It is only when you look back after.

24 Q. I don't want to engage in metaphysical discussion. What

25 I want to ask you about is what the situation was like

1 in the early hours of 27 April 1997 when the police

2 constable's door was opened, you got out and you saw

3 50 people fighting or scuffling in the street. Was it

4 an alarming situation?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. All right. Can we look at page [81151]? This is back

7 in your witness statement that you made for the Inquiry

8 that I took you to to start with. If we look at

9 paragraph 30, you tell us there:

10 "I made my statement and notebook entry on my own and

11 did not discuss the events with Reserve Constable Atkinson

12 and Reserve Constable Cornett who were also there. I

13 believe Constable Neill arrived when I had finished the

14 statement. I went home and on returning to duty later that

15 day, was seen by a detective sergeant, who took some

16 additional notes about what I could remember of the incident."

17 Then you go on:

18 "Stacey Bridgett is the only person who I have

19 named, but there were other people in retrospect who

20 I saw but didn't write down their names. I think this

21 was due to my being tired and not having the time to

22 debrief with my colleagues. I cannot remember these

23 persons now."

24 So there you are telling us about there being

25 no debriefing and that there were other people who you

1 saw that you might have made more of if you had been

2 debriefed. That's your position, is it, that you could

3 have given more names perhaps, but certainly

4 descriptions, if anybody teased information out of you?

5 A. In retrospect, yes, if there had been time. There was

6 faces -- maybe not by name, but there was faces that

7 I did know there.

8 Q. But if we look at page [09688], these are the notes that

9 were taken from you by that detective sergeant -- we are

10 calling him [DS Bradley]; we can show you his name if

11 necessary -- which were taken, as you said in your

12 statement, later that day, later on 27 April. By all

13 means look through it, if you like, but he asked you a

14 number of questions. (Pause)

15 What we can see from this is a number of questions

16 and a number of answers, and the answers are put in

17 brackets. But there is no question there about whether

18 you saw anybody that you haven't put in your notebook or

19 whether you recognised anybody whose name you didn't

20 know or whether you could tell detectives about any

21 other person. So far as we can see from this, nobody

22 ever did try to tease out of you whether you saw anybody

23 else. That's fair, is it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That's accurate?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, what I want to do is put to you

3 a possibility, a possible series of events that emerges

4 as no more than a possibility from the evidence we have

5 heard so far, and see what you say about it.

6 First of all, it is this: that the vehicle was in

7 motion when the male with the blue shirt pointed out

8 that his mates were coming up from St Pat's. That's not

9 your version. That's right, isn't it? As far as you

10 were concerned, the vehicle had stopped and you were

11 talking to Stacey Bridgett and somebody else by that

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that's not what happened,

15 but in fact the vehicle was in motion and he stopped it,

16 flagged it down and said, "I have got friends coming up

17 from St Pat's". So you deny that? That's right?

18 A. I didn't see them.

19 Q. Then what happened after that was that he, that man with

20 the blue shirt, got involved in a face-off with two

21 youths, one of whom was Stacey Bridgett?

22 A. What do you mean a face-off?

23 Q. That they had a confrontation. No? And that as

24 a result of that confrontation, the observer in the Land

25 Rover -- that's Reserve Constable Cornett -- had to

1 open her door and tell the two youths to stop it. What

2 do you say to that?

3 A. I can't remember.

4 Q. And then instead of doing what the man in the blue shirt

5 had said you needed to do, which was watch out for

6 Catholics meeting Protestants, you all sat there and had

7 a nice cosy chat with your mate Stacey. What do you say

8 to that? Did you have --

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you sit and chat then?

11 A. What do you mean sit and chat?

12 Q. Did you stay in the Land Rover while two men, one of

13 whom was Stacey Bridgett, stood in the doorway and had

14 a chat with the officers?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And having completely ignored the warning and instead

17 decided to chat with your mates, what happened was two

18 men were felled in the middle of a lot of fighting and

19 somebody then opened the door and said, "What the fuck

20 are you doing sitting there, watching this happening?"

21 Is that what happened?

22 A. That's your version of events.

23 Q. Well, is it your version of events?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Why did the man open the door then?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Did people generally pull police officers out of Land

3 Rovers?

4 A. It has happened.

5 Q. Good for their health, is it?

6 A. That's a silly question.

7 Q. What happens to them if they pull people out of Land

8 Rovers?

9 A. You can get arrested.

10 Q. Then what happened is you all realised that while you

11 were having your chat, these two men had been put to the

12 ground. Is that what happened?

13 A. That's your version of events.

14 Q. Not your version? You deny it, do you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So that as soon as you got out, you knew there was

17 fighting and you knew that two men were down. You deny

18 that, do you?

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. Now, at the end of it, the four of you get back in the

21 Land Rover and all go back to the police station, don't

22 you?

23 A. (Pause) Sorry.

24 Q. It is all right. At the end of the evening, did the

25 four of you get back in the Land Rover and go back to

1 the station?

2 A. At the end even, whenever we were up the other end of

3 the street, yes, we got into the Land Rover and went

4 back to the station.

5 Q. Was there any discussion in the Land Rover about what

6 had just been going on?

7 A. No, not that I can recall.

8 Q. We know from statements that two of the officers in the Land

9 Rover -- that's the lady observer, Reserve Constable Cornett

10 we are calling her, and the driver, Constable Neill we are

11 calling him -- both had actually gone over to Mr Hamill and

12 both of them thought he was seriously injured. That's what

13 we are given to understand from what they have said so far?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Did they not tell you that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there no discussion about what on earth you were

18 going to say to explain yourself about a Catholic being

19 very seriously injured while the four of you sat in the

20 Land Rover having a cosy chat after being warned?

21 A. Could you put it that in ordinary English what you are

22 trying to say?

23 Q. I will put in very simple English. Did you not put

24 a story together?

25 A. You are accusing me of telling lies?

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I refute that.

3 Q. Okay. No conversation, no need to cover anything up?

4 Is that right?

5 A. (inaudible).

6 Q. You see, we have got a Catholic witness, a Catholic

7 witness, who says police officers pulled kickers off

8 Mr Hamill, and no police officer accepts that he did

9 that. Can you explain that?

10 A. When did this happen?

11 Q. You know what we are talking about, don't you?

12 A. I haven't got a clue. You are throwing shit at me

13 I have never heard about.

14 Q. Well, a man died while four police officers were in

15 a Land Rover no more than about 20 yards from him and

16 they want to know why that is.

17 A. Woah, woah --

18 MR ADAIR: I'm sorry to interrupt --

19 A. -- you have said that he died when we were -- fucking --

20 he didn't die until after. For fuck's sake.

21 MR ADAIR: I don't think it is right to say that a man died

22 while they were in the Land Rover, sir. Maybe --

23 THE CHAIRMAN: He died as a result of it.

24 MR ADAIR: -- as a result of, but I think it's ...

25 MR UNDERWOOD: My friend is quite right.

1 Now, can you explain why a Catholic witness would

2 say that a number of police officers pulled kickers off

3 Mr Hamill when no police officer accepts that that's

4 what happened?

5 A. I'm not saying (inaudible).

6 Q. Sorry?

7 A. I've got nothing else for you. You just accused me of

8 fucking sitting in the Land Rover watching somebody

9 fucking die, and he didn't die until he was in hospital.

10 That's not nice.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm accusing you of sitting in the Land Rover

12 while fighting is going on when you have been warned to

13 watch out for Catholics and Protestants coming together.

14 What do you say about that? (Pause)

15 No answer? I have no further questions.

16 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

18 Questions by MR McGRORY

19 MR McGRORY: P40, I have some questions for you. Can I make

20 it clear to you at the beginning that they are on behalf

21 of the family of Robert Hamill. Are you going to answer

22 my questions?

23 A. Certainly, if they're sensible.

24 Q. Now, if we could perhaps have page [17328] on the

25 screen, please. But before I ask you some questions

1 about what you might have seen or didn't see, the

2 sequence of events, I want just to show you some of the

3 evidence that the Tribunal has heard in respect of what

4 did happen. Do you understand that?

5 This statement that is on the screen is a page from

6 a statement made by a girl called Tracey Clarke on

7 10 May 1997. Have you ever heard of Tracey Clarke?

8 A. (Witness shakes head)

9 Q. She made this statement to a detective constable -- I'm

10 not going to name him -- on 10 May, and this page is the

11 second page of it. And if we could perhaps go to:

12 "The person I saw in the middle of road ..."

13 The top half of the statement, it would be easier to

14 read. This is what she says she saw, P40:

15 "The person I saw in the middle of the road

16 I thought was dead as he was not moving."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you read it?

20 A. Hm-mm.

21 Q. He was not moving. She thought he was dead:

22 "It was at this time that I saw a number of persons

23 gathered around the person lying in the centre of the

24 road. These persons were kicking the person on the

25 ground around the head and the body. I saw them jump on

1 the person on the ground. They jumped all over him and

2 kicked him. I saw the persons who were doing this and I

3 can identify them."

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And she identifies them as the following people:

7 Dean Forbes, Allister Hanvey, Stacey Bridgett, Muck and

8 Rory Robinson. Now, two of those people, P40, are the

9 people that were chatting to you in the Land Rover.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Isn't that right?

12 A. The only one I know was Stacey Bridgett.

13 Q. Right. You don't know the name of the other chap,

14 Dean Forbes?

15 A. I can't remember him.

16 Q. Well, at least you accept that Stacey Bridgett was the

17 guy in fact that you knew, that you had stopped to talk

18 to; isn't that right?

19 A. I haven't stopped to talk to him.

20 Q. Well, we will talk about that in a moment or two, but

21 you knew him. Isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were talking to him?

24 A. He popped his head in, he mentioned my name and I said

25 hello back to him basically. Something like that.

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. That was the total of the conversation.

3 Q. Yes. Now, he is one of the people that this lady

4 describes doing this to Robert Hamill as he lay on the

5 ground.

6 A. Right.

7 Q. Unconscious.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Now: "The other person lying near Eastwoods was being

10 helped by Michelle Jamieson

11 but I saw persons run up and kick him around

12 the head and body and Michelle was telling them to stop. At

13 that time I saw a number of police behind the crowd who

14 were attacking the two persons lying on the ground."

15 Then she says:

16 "As far as I could see, the police were not doing

17 much to stop what was happening."

18 Do you see where she says that?

19 A. Is she saying that the police are attacking the two

20 people?

21 Q. No, she says:

22 "These boys are attacking this man on the ground and

23 the other man is being attacked as well, and behind the

24 crowd are a number of policemen."

25 A. "I saw a number of police behind the crowd who were

1 attacking the two persons lying on the ground."

2 Q. I'll read it again:

3 "At that time I saw a number of police behind the

4 crowd who were attacking --

5 A. The two persons.

6 Q. I'm suggesting to you that refers to the crowd, not to

7 the police. There is nobody suggesting that the police

8 were attacking the people.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Right? What I'm suggesting to you is that she is saying

11 the police are also watching this. Do you

12 understand me?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But they are not doing anything about it.

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Now, at this point in time we have no evidence that

17 there were any other police around apart from those who

18 were in the Land Rover.

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Now, I want you to look at the statement of another

21 witness, called Timothy Jameson. It begins on

22 page [17653]. The relevant page is [17654], the top

23 half of the page. We will take our time with it:

24 "[He] walked up past McMahon's clothes shop and

25 Ronnie May's pub. When [he] got as far as Ronnie's pub [he]

1 saw a crowd of approximately 15 to 20 persons fighting

2 in the middle of the town. [He] walked towards the crowd.

3 There was fellows punching each other and I observed a

4 fellow with an Umbro sweater, grey colour, and, he thinks, blue

5 jeans fighting with another fellow. This fellow I know

6 to see; he ... is called Marc. He is also called Muck."

7 He says he thinks he was wearing a black leather

8 jacket. He was standing five feet from him, the lights

9 were on:

10 "Marc was punching this fellow in the face with his

11 fist. That's the fellow with the Umbro sweater on."

12 If we just stop there for a moment, P40, you told

13 the police when you were interviewed, the senior

14 detectives, in the context of the complaint

15 in September 1997 that you saw no punching, that it was

16 sort of scuffling?

17 A. Hm-mm.

18 Q. Would you agree that this observation is more than that,

19 the scuffling that you say you saw, that this is serious

20 punching that was going on?

21 A. That's a different perspective, yes. At what time was

22 this seen at? Was it the same time as I seen what

23 I seen?

24 Q. We are going to come to that in a moment, but what I'm

25 suggesting to you is that all of this happened either

1 when you were in the Land Rover or just after you had

2 gotten out of it.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Okay? It is for the Inquiry to determine precisely when

5 it happened, but I'm suggesting to you that the evidence

6 that we have got would show that it couldn't have

7 happened before the Land Rover arrived, that it had to

8 have happened after the Land Rover was there. We will

9 come to that in a moment, but let's just see what this

10 man says he saw:

11 "Marc knocked this fellow to the ground. He was

12 lying in the middle of the road opposite the bakery on

13 the corner of number 7 on the side of the street the cars drive up the town. This

14 fellow lay there for about one minute and got up again.

15 I didn't see Marc hit him while he was on the ground.

16 Marc then started fighting with another fellow. This

17 man was wearing a blue shirt and a tie... This man was

18 trying to stop the fighting.

19 "The Land Rover was parked at the side of the

20 street. I didn't see any police get out of it."

21 So this witness is suggesting that this was going

22 on, people were fighting, punching, and that he could

23 see the Land Rover but no police.

24 Now, do you agree that if this witness is telling

25 the truth, you would have been still in the Land Rover

1 at this stage? He doesn't see you?

2 A. Just out of his line of sight.

3 Q. Right. Over the page at [17655], he mentions a chap

4 called Rory Robinson. He says:

5 "Rory was hitting somebody with his fists. I

6 couldn't see who he was fighting with. Rory was wearing

7 cream coloured jeans. I then heard a bottle smashing.

8 I was standing in the middle of the fight."

9 So he says he is right in the middle of this. He is

10 feet away from these guys, they are fighting, they are

11 punching, they are kicking?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. You have said that when you got out of the Land Rover,

14 there was nothing but scuffles?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Are you still maintaining that, P40?

17 A. Yes. That's what I seen.

18 Q. But he goes on to say:

19 "I looked around and I saw Allister Hanvey kick and

20 punch this fellow who was lying on the ground. This

21 fellow was lying in the middle of the street, about

22 opposite Eastwoods clothing. I was about nine feet from

23 him. The fellow was just lying there with his hands at

24 his side, he didn't move. The fellow was wearing

25 a black coloured jacket. I think he had black hair.

1 I saw Allister Hanvey kick this fellow three to four

2 times while he was on the ground."

3 A. This fellow's standing in the middle of the crowd, he is

4 part of the crowd.

5 Q. This fellow is part of the crowd, yes?

6 A. Is he saying how this fellow got to the ground?

7 Q. He doesn't say how he got to the ground, but he says --

8 A. And he's nine feet from him.

9 Q. I'm asking the questions. What I'm saying to you is

10 this fellow saw the man on the ground getting kicked

11 while he was on the ground?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Now, you have said that when you got out of the Land

14 Rover, you saw nobody on the ground?

15 A. That's twice you have asked that. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. And that you saw no serious fighting?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Now, we had evidence also from a lady called

19 Maureen McCoy, who was coming down this street around

20 the same time as Robert Hamill and the cousin that he

21 was with called D, and two other girls, and that as they

22 were coming down the street from the top of the street,

23 they could see the Land Rover at the position LR3. So

24 I'm suggesting to you that you were there in that

25 position before Robert Hamill and his friend actually

1 got there to the junction. So all of this fighting

2 hadn't started yet.

3 Now, are you still suggesting that when you did get

4 out of the Land Rover, there was no fighting going on?

5 A. I'm not suggesting -- I'm telling you what I seen.

6 Q. Now, didn't you hear some shouting when you were in the

7 Land Rover?

8 A. I heard loud noise -- yes, shouting.

9 Q. You heard shouting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was your purpose for being there?

12 A. As part of a crew.

13 Q. What was the purpose of the crew being there? Can

14 I help you with this? Was the purpose of the crew --

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you see first if he can tell us?

16 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Why was the crew there?

18 A. To stop any public order or report if any

19 was going to start.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, very well.

21 MR McGRORY: Of course, by this time in 1997 you had been in

22 the reserves some 10/11 years? Isn't that right?

23 A. Hm-mm.

24 Q. And you told the police in September 1997 when you were

25 interviewed about this in the context of the complaint

1 that you had some considerable experience of public

2 order incidents. Isn't that right?

3 A. Public order incidents?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Or public order?

6 Q. Public order.

7 A. Public order duties?

8 Q. Public order duties, yes. I think you told them you had

9 seen maybe 30 or 40 incidents, fighting and so forth?

10 A. Not fighting, no.

11 Q. Did you ever see any fighting during your 11 years of

12 experience?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you have tried to intervene and stop the fighting?

15 A. As part of an organised squad, yes.

16 Q. Even if it had happened out of the blue, would you have

17 tried to stop it?

18 A. Yes. Whenever you are part of a team, you are told what

19 to do. If there is something happening, if you are told

20 to form up, whatever happens, you are told what to do.

21 Q. Is it not part of your training that whenever there is

22 a public order incident that you should try and stop it?

23 A. What are you suggesting, that one person run out and say

24 "stop" themselves?

25 Q. If that's what it takes. If two people are fighting --

1 A. No, that's not how it happens. You work as a unit.

2 Q. If you are on patrol, whether you are on your own or

3 with other people, and a fight breaks out between two

4 drunk people, are you saying that you just wait to see

5 what others do or you do nothing? What do you do?

6 A. Are you talking about a Land Rover crew?

7 Q. Anybody. You are on patrol. You are either on foot or

8 you are in a Land Rover and you observe a fight break

9 out, what do you believe it was your duty to do?

10 A. Well, from experience I have approached fights and said, "Look,

11 wise up fellows, break it up", and the person I have been

12 with has called it in and asked for back-up.

13 Q. What is the purpose of doing that?

14 A. Of?

15 Q. Why would you do that? Go and say, "Break it up",

16 approach them?

17 A. To stop it.

18 Q. Yes, and why would you stop it?

19 A. Would you rather I didn't?

20 Q. Would you answer the question, please? Why would you

21 stop it?

22 A. To stop somebody getting hurt.

23 Q. Precisely.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: You said just now in your experience, you

25 approached fights and let wiser fellows break it up. In

1 what respect were they wiser than you?

2 A. Sorry?

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just asking you to explain an answer you

4 gave. Shall I repeat --

5 A. Yes.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: You said:

7 "From experience, I have approached fights and let

8 wiser fellows break it up."

9 In what respect would they be wiser than you?

10 A. I didn't say that.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: You did, I am afraid.

12 MR McGRORY: I think -- we have a local expression here,

13 which is "wise up".

14 MR ADAIR: I think it means "catch yourself on". "Wise up"

15 is "catch yourself on".

16 MR McGRORY: Can I just have a look briefly at page [09356],

17 please? In the bottom half of that, the bottom third of

18 it, the name of the driver of the vehicle that night is

19 mentioned. We don't want to mention that name, but you

20 are asked there:

21 "How often did you see, or during your time in

22 Portadown, sectarian conflict, issues such as that,

23 St Pat's or the tunnel end or whatever? How many?

24 "Answer: A brave few."

25 You are asked to try and quantify that and you said

1 maybe 30 or 50. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Isn't it correct, P40, that you had a fair amount of

4 experience of public disorder policing?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You don't agree with that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is that not what you told them in this interview? This

9 is the interview you had in September 1997?

10 A. Public order duties, yes, but not actual taking part in

11 riots. It is part of your duty to -- you would be part

12 of that crew but, you know, how many times do you get

13 out to -- in a riot situation? Once in a ...

14 Q. Let's leave aside for the moment whether or not you had

15 encountered this kind of thing 30 times or 40 times or

16 no times or two times, but in terms of basic common

17 sense, do you accept that basic common sense is an

18 attribute -- something that a policeman would need in

19 the course of his duties?

20 A. It helps.

21 Q. And that common sense would suggest that if a fight

22 breaks out or there is serious trouble, that you

23 intervene?

24 A. Or you get back-up or whatever.

25 Q. Let's maybe just get to that. This is the point that

1 Mr Underwood was asking you about. Is it the case, P40,

2 that really what happened here is that you made

3 a judgment that you weren't going to intervene because

4 you were afraid? Did you --

5 A. Have you read my statement?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Then you could see that I done something.

8 Q. Yes. Well, we will talk about that in a moment because

9 what you said you were doing was keeping two people whom

10 you perceived to be Nationalists from getting out of

11 Woodhouse Street while everything else was going on

12 behind you. That's your evidence, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was going on behind you was a very serious assault

15 with maybe -- do you accept that this happened to

16 Robert Hamill, first of all?

17 A. I don't know the sequence of events, but there is

18 something happened to Robert Hamill.

19 Q. What these two witnesses say was that he was being

20 attacked while on the ground by five or six people?

21 A. That's their point of view.

22 Q. And that their description of the attack is a vicious

23 attack?

24 A. That's their wording.

25 Q. I'm suggesting to you that this either happened while

1 you were in the Land Rover or just after you had gotten

2 out of it?

3 A. That's your suggestion.

4 Q. Do you accept that it had to have happened?

5 A. It happened at some time.

6 Q. I'm suggesting to you it couldn't have happened at any

7 other time because these people hadn't reach the

8 junction by the time you were in the position of LR3.

9 So it hadn't started?

10 A. Well -- it happened.

11 Q. You see, did you not say that you had stopped first of

12 all when all was quiet for a bit of a break and a smoke?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The Land Rover was stationary?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you get out then?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you had your smoke in the Land Rover?

19 A. With the back doors open, yes.

20 Q. With the back doors open?

21 A. As far as I can remember.

22 Q. Yes. Did you close the back doors again when you headed

23 off?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But all was quiet then at that point?

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. Yes. Well, you were on public order duties, so if it

3 wasn't quiet, you would know about it; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could I have page [09361], please? This is a page of

6 your interview with senior detectives in September 1997

7 investigating the complaint. The top of the page:

8 "Right, now tell us about those two people and what

9 transpired from there?

10 "Answer: As we pulled in to see what the craic was

11 with them because, not putting a blunt edge on it, but

12 Stacey was a bit of a troublemaker. So we pulled in to

13 see what the craic was and started chatting away, so we

14 did. He knows me by name, so he does."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So that's your evidence as to what happened then. You

18 have your break, you have your smoke, you close up the

19 doors and you head off, but then you pull in again very

20 quickly; isn't that right?

21 A. Going by -- inside a matter of yards, yes.

22 Q. Yes, because you see them, you see Stacey?

23 A. Hm-mm. No, I didn't pull the Land Rover in.

24 Q. We know you weren't driving, but what you say here is:

25 "We pulled in to see what the craic was with them."

1 A. This was made in retrospect.

2 Q. Well, it is only a few months later.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. So are you saying that this is not what happened now?

5 A. I'm saying that this is something that happened before,

6 and whenever you see somebody at that time of night --

7 if I had been in the front seat, I would have pulled in,

8 right. "What are you doing about this time of night?"

9 Just to find out what they are at.

10 Q. That's what happened. The Land Rover stopped for the

11 purpose of talking to them on your account in 1997?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. "We pulled in to see what the craic was and started

14 chatting away, so we did. He knows me by name. He

15 popped his head in and said, 'There's P40. How

16 are you doing?'"

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "How are you doing?"

20 He said to you. So you were having a chat?

21 A. I wasn't having a chat.

22 Q. What you told the police in 1997 happened was that he

23 popped his head in, mentioned your name and started

24 chatting?

25 A. But he wasn't talking to me.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: "So we did" seems to refer to all of you,

2 does it?

3 A. It is referring to the person in the front.

4 MR McGRORY: I'm not going to spend any longer on this, P40,

5 but I have to suggest to you what you clearly told the

6 senior detectives in September 1997 is that the Land

7 Rover pulled over to talk to these two boys and that

8 Stacey popped his head in and started chatting?

9 A. He popped his head in, passed acknowledgment to me and

10 put his head back out again, and that was my

11 conversation.

12 Q. And then you go on to say that just after that:

13 "Somebody, a male person, opened Alan's door

14 and started trying -- he started pulling at Alan

15 and shouting. He started shouting at him."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So just as you are chatting on your own account to the

19 boy that you knew as a trouble maker, just as you are

20 chatting to him, then somebody comes over to the Land

21 Rover and pulls you out?

22 A. No, he didn't pull me out.

23 Q. Somebody came over and pulled the driver's door and

24 started pulling at him?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that at the point at which you all got out?

2 A. Shortly after it, yes.

3 Q. Well, it wouldn't have needed to have been too longer

4 after it, would it, if you had been told there was

5 something serious going on?

6 You see, what I'm suggesting to you, P40, is that

7 clearly what happened here is that you stop for your

8 smoke and your break and you head off and you run across

9 Bridgett and Forbes, and Bridgett knows you and he

10 starts chatting. He pops his head round the back of the

11 Land Rover?

12 A. No, Woah, woah, woah, woah. It was in through the front

13 passenger's door.

14 Q. Well, we only have your word for that at the moment.

15 A. Okay.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a comment.

17 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir. You are chatting and while you are

18 chatting, the trouble starts?

19 A. I wasn't chatting. He popped his head in, said, "There

20 is dah, dah". He pulled his head back -- and I passed

21 some comment back and he pulled his head back out again.

22 That was the end of my conversation. It wasn't

23 a conversation.

24 Q. The more serious issue, I have to suggest to you, P40,

25 is not so much -- if the trouble started when you were

1 chatting to Bridgett and Forbes, that's bad enough?

2 That's bad enough.

3 A. I did not have a chat with Forbes.

4 Q. Well, the two of them are together. That's the run of

5 the evidence. But regardless of that, what you ought to

6 have been immediately after that, immediately, is

7 jumping out and looking to see what it was this guy was

8 talking about?

9 A. I didn't see what had happened, so what was I jumping

10 out for?

11 Q. Do you accept that what you told the police in 1997:

12 somebody came over and pulled at the driver?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Said, "There is something going on"?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So that surely alerts you to the fact that something is

17 happening out there?

18 A. And Constable Neill has been pulled.

19 Q. Is that not the point at which you got out?

20 A. I said shortly after that.

21 Q. Within seconds or minutes, or how long?

22 A. That's very unfair. I don't know.

23 Q. You see, the other difficulty we have is that this boy

24 that you know, Bridgett --

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. -- there is a witness who says that at some point during

2 this assault on the man lying on the ground, he is one

3 of those doing it?

4 A. Right. So did he do it before we talked to him or

5 after?

6 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that he went over and

7 joined it, that it is going on. Do you understand me?

8 You see, you say you got out and you didn't see anything

9 but scuffles. Isn't that your evidence?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the assault on Robert Hamill

12 had already been well underway and that the guy that you

13 knew went over and joined in on the evidence of

14 Tracey Clarke? He was participating in it?

15 A. And how am I supposed to know whether he did or not?

16 Q. Because I'm suggesting to you that you saw him do that.

17 You must have seen him?

18 MR ADAIR: Sorry, sir, on what basis is that being

19 suggested, that he saw him doing that? I think it

20 should be made clear on what basis that is being

21 suggested.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory is entitled to put the question,

23 but the witness will answer it as he believes.

24 MR ADAIR: Very well, sir. Just if I might respectfully

25 say, there should be some foundation for putting

1 a question rather than an assertion which doesn't seem

2 to be backed up by any evidential basis. For example, I

3 can see the question being, "How on earth did you miss

4 Bridgett doing that, if he did it?"

5 THE CHAIRMAN: That implies, "Of course, you saw it".

6 MR ADAIR: I have made my point, sir. I'll leave it at

7 that.

8 MR McGRORY: I think I have made mine too, P40.

9 Let's just have a look at the statement that you did

10 make to the police later that day. It is at

11 page [00695]. It is dated 27 April. Now, can you

12 remember what time you made this statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You knocked off duty about 03:30; isn't that right? Can

15 you remember?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you remember being recalled?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You do remember being recalled?

20 A. Yes, I got a telephone call.

21 Q. So we accept that at some point, say, in the middle of

22 the night, you were allowed to go home?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: The witness, I understand, is asking for

24 a break. Five minutes, yes.

25 (12.25 pm)

1 (Short break)

2 (12.32 pm)

3 THE CHAIRMAN: He wants another five minutes. Five minutes

4 only.

5 (12.34 pm)

6 (Short break)

7 (12.40 pm)

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

9 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.

10 Now, P40, I was just beginning to ask you about your

11 recollection of how your statement was made on 27 April,

12 and you said that you had agreed that you had gone home

13 and you got a phone call to come back.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you remember you made the phone call? Don't mention

16 the name.

17 A. The duty inspector.

18 Q. The duty inspector, yes. And can you remember what was

19 the scene in the police station when you got back?

20 A. What was the scene? I was told to go to Comms.

21 Q. Sorry, to go where?

22 A. To the communications room. As soon as -- somebody at

23 the barrier stopped us, park there, go in. I think

24 I went from there -- there is one of the CID took us up

25 to the office. "You sit there and you sit there and you

1 sit there. There is your paper, there is your pens."

2 That was it.

3 Q. So how many of the Land Rover crew were in this

4 office --

5 A. Three.

6 Q. -- when you were handed the paper and pens?

7 A. Three.

8 Q. Three?

9 A. Hm-mm.

10 Q. Am I correct in saying that the one who was absent was

11 the driver?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. Careful not to mention any names here, that's the

14 easiest way to do this. And did the person who handed

15 you the paper, was that a CID detective?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I don't want you to mention his name either. But then

18 he left you to it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. So had you any what we would describe as

21 a debriefing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let's just deal with the debriefing perhaps. Do you

24 know what a debriefing is?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you tell us what in your experience that was?

2 A. I have never had a debrief, a proper debrief.

3 Q. Right. How do you know what it is?

4 A. It is in The Bill, of course.

5 Q. I think I want to keep this at a serious level because

6 we are talking about the death of a man here and how

7 come no one has been brought to account for it.

8 So you answered to me that you knew what

9 a debriefing was and then in the next question you said

10 you had never had one?

11 A. Yes, I have never experienced a debrief.

12 Q. You have never had a debrief?

13 A. Not for a -- I never had, no.

14 Q. Had you ever had one at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What would you imagine one would be like?

17 A. As I say, the only experience I would have is what

18 I have seen on TV.

19 Q. Just let me get this right, at this stage in 1997 you

20 are a police officer, a reserve constable albeit, of

21 11/12 years' experience?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You have considerable experience in public order

24 policing?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we assume that in the course of that experience

2 things happened, events, violence?

3 A. Nothing to this magnitude.

4 Q. No, whether it is of this magnitude or not -- this was

5 a murder, of course -- have you had to charge anybody

6 with an offence?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No. Are you saying that in 11 years as a reserve

9 constable, you never had to charge anybody with doing

10 anything wrong?

11 A. I have had people in court for small things, but nothing

12 ...

13 Q. So you were never involved in any disorder incident

14 where people were charged with rioting or assault?

15 A. No, I have never done anything like that.

16 Q. Never?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you had never had occasion for somebody else to sit

19 you down and say, "Well, what happened?"

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would that be what a debrief would be?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It never, ever happened?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So it didn't happen this night before you went off duty

1 anyway, and when you came back did anybody speak to you

2 before you went into the room and were given the paper

3 and pens to write things down?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How serious did you understand the situation to be when

6 you were called back?

7 A. I was just told to make a statement about what -- my

8 experience, basically.

9 Q. But why do you think that was?

10 A. Because I was asked to.

11 Q. Sorry, it is [11116]. But did you not have an

12 understanding by then -- I'm going to suggest to you

13 that this is about half six in the morning now -- you

14 have been called back -- I will talk to you about this

15 statement in a moment, but when you were called back,

16 tell us what you remember, your understanding of the

17 situation. Did you have a memory that a man was

18 seriously injured?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No idea?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So have you no memory of a ambulance being called?

23 A. Yes, there was an ambulance and that there, but the

24 seriousness, no.

25 Q. Have you any memory of somebody being unconscious?

1 A. No.

2 Q. So when you are called back, did any anybody say to you,

3 "Listen, this is a serious incident"?

4 A. No, I never even got talking to the other part of the

5 crew.

6 Q. Now, this is a statement dated 19 December 2000 and it

7 is from a chief inspector we are calling K. I don't

8 know if you have a cipher list, but he's a chief

9 inspector who was appointed to -- do you have his name?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember seeing him --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- in 2000?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember what his role was, what he was doing

16 when he was speaking to you in 2000?

17 A. I was brought in and he says, "Look, there is -- we are

18 just -- it is not a statement I am taking from you, we

19 are just trying to fill in holes and that there, just an

20 ordinary book." And we just went through it.

21 Q. Well, there is no need to refer to it now but the first

22 page of his statement suggests that he interviewed you

23 on 19 December 2000 at 6.30 pm in Gough Barracks, this

24 chief inspector?

25 A. Could have been.

1 Q. Were you aware when he interviewed you that he was

2 reinvestigating the complaint?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You had no idea?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I mean, the incident had happened over three years

7 previously. Isn't that right? In 1997?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you conscious of the fact that there was public

10 concern about the fact that nobody had been brought to

11 account for this murder?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You were utterly unaware of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you utterly unaware that there was public concern

16 that the Land Rover police maybe could have done a bit

17 more to save these people?

18 A. This is where my head is mixed up. I have difficulty

19 splitting times up, when things happened. It is hard to

20 explain.

21 Q. Okay. If we have the second half of that page

22 highlighted, please, this is a statement that

23 Inspector K, Chief Inspector K, made about his

24 conversation with you and it recounts what you told him

25 when he met you on 19 December 2000. And what he says

1 you told him is that you got into the office, you recall

2 seeing a certain other reserve constable. Do you see

3 that?

4 A. Which line are you on?

5 Q. At the very top it says a certain inspector directed you

6 to go to a CID office to make a statement about what you

7 had witnessed.

8 A. Hm-mm.

9 Q. You got into the office, you recall seeing a certain

10 reserve constable?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that reserve constable also in the Land Rover with

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And a certain --

16 A. Yes, D/Con.

17 Q. D/Con, yes. And that you believed another person from

18 the Land Rover arrived?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Arrived shortly after you arrived, and that the other

23 chap, the driver, did not arrive until much later?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The detective then spoke to you and handed you a witness

1 statement form?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that you made the statement while sitting in the CID

4 office?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that the other chap from the Land Rover went to

7 another corner?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told him that you hadn't discussed anything between

10 you?

11 A. Hm-mm.

12 Q. Do we take it that the reserve constable, the female,

13 was also there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the detective left the room. That's what you told

16 us before you had a break?

17 A. Hm-mm.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the statement made on the 27th?

19 MR McGRORY: Yes, this is how your statement on 27 April was

20 made.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you understand?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you had had no debrief?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Three of the four of you in the Land Rover are left in

2 a room on your own?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And given statement forms to write a statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you discuss with the other two what you would put in

7 that statement?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Not at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How big was the room?

12 A. From here nearly to the far wall, maybe a wee bit this

13 row, and it was from about the curtains to, I think,

14 there -- sort of about there. That's my recollection.

15 Q. It is not a big room, is it?

16 A. It is a fair-sized room.

17 Q. Okay. So the three of you are sitting there writing

18 your statements in complete silence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At what point did you write your notebook?

21 A. I think I wrote it up around about the same time.

22 Q. In fact, would you take it from me that your notebook

23 entry and your statement of 27 April are absolutely

24 identical?

25 A. I believe you.

1 Q. Yes, in fact without having to go through the painful

2 process of comparing them now, they are word-for-word

3 identical?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. So which did you write first?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You can't remember?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So you made both entries at roughly the same time. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.

12 Q. Now, if we go to your statement at page [00695], the

13 bottom five or six lines, you say you heard shouting

14 coming from the direction of Thomas Street and informed

15 the driver. Do you see that? Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "A male person then opened Constable Neill's door and

18 started pulling at his arm and shouting at him." [00696]

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Hm-mm.

21 Q. "We then got out of the Land Rover and I noted that there

22 was a crowd of approximately 50 youths and men. There

23 were several fights taking place and several females

24 were screaming and shouting."

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You go on to describe a man coming over to you and in

2 strong language saying to you, "What are you going to

3 do?"

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You then talk about physically stopping a male and

6 moving him back towards Woodhouse Street?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you say you observed two males lying in the

9 middle of the road adjacent to Thomas Street. Do you

10 see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So are you suggesting then that you didn't observe those

13 two males until after --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- that stage --

16 A. Hm-mm.

17 Q. -- after you had had the altercation with the Nationalists

18 coming up from Woodhouse Street? You see also on 27 April

19 you had cause to be interviewed or to be spoken to by

20 another police officer, a sergeant. Do you remember that?

21 [Detective Sergeant Bradley]. Do you want to have a look

22 at your cipher list?

23 A. I can't remember that.

24 Q. You can't remember speaking to Detective Sergeant Bradley?

25 A. I can remember speaking to Detective Sergeant Bradley not

1 in a formal way. I was walking (inaudible) road, he came

2 in and he had a copy of my statement and he says -- he

3 wanted me to change my statement because there was no pile

4 in it and I says, "No, I stand by what I wrote".

5 Q. Let's get this clear: you are in the room, you are on

6 your own with the two others from the Land Rover, you

7 all write out statements. Do you give them to somebody

8 then?

9 A. Yes, I can't remember whether that D/Con came back or we

10 brought it down with us to Comms. It was signed and -- I

11 can't remember where it went.

12 Q. So at some stage then Detective Sergeant Bradley comes

13 back to you that morning and asks you to change your statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell us about that because that's a serious matter now.

16 Is this a sergeant?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To come back and say, "I want you to change that". What

19 was wrong with it that he wanted changed?

20 A. Well, it took me hours doing that. I was absolutely

21 knackered. I had had no sleep. That's all the head

22 would do. You know, I suppose if I had -- if I had went

23 to my bed and got up -- if I had been refreshed I could

24 have done better.

25 Q. Yes, but on what basis do you say, P40, that Detective

1 Sergeant Bradley wanted you to change your statement?

2 What detail of it did he want you to change?

3 A. He didn't say any detail. He just asked me did I want

4 to change it.

5 Q. Did he give you any reason for asking you that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If he wanted you to change it, did he say, "There is

8 something in here I'm not happy about"?

9 A. No. To me, personally -- and I can only speak from that

10 point of view -- it is a very short statement with very

11 little meat on it, but that's all I could put at that

12 time.

13 Q. I wouldn't disagree with you there, P40.

14 A. And, you know -- but that's all I could -- I had been up

15 the morning before with my children, I had done a tour

16 of duty, I stayed on, went to bed, hadn't slept and came

17 back in.

18 Q. I'm not concerned about how tired you were. I'm concerned

19 about what you have just said about what Detective

20 Sergeant Bradley said to you, and what you have said is

21 that he asked you to change your statement.

22 A. No, no, he asked me did I want to.

23 Q. Did you want to change it, sorry. You have clarified

24 that.

25 A. And I said no.

1 Q. That's fine. Could you look at page [09688]? This is

2 the note that Detective Sergeant Bradley made of this

3 conversation, okay? He asks you some questions out of

4 your statement, asking you to clarify certain things.

5 Do you see that? Notes taken down from your name re

6 incident. Okay? And he goes through your statement,

7 obviously when you exactly stopped, the direction you

8 were pointing in, position and so forth:

9 "We were talking ..."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "Who was talking to Stacey?"

13 "Answer: All talking.

14 "Question: Why were the youths talking?"

15 He asked you, and you must have said:

16 "Friendly."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. I think that was the tone of voice, or whatever.

19 Q. Then you tell him that:

20 "[You hear] shouting from

21 Thomas Street."

22 Did you hear that? You told him that?

23 A. Hm-mm.

24 Q. Do you dispute that you told him that?

25 A. No.

1 Q. And that something was hard to make out, it was verbal.

2 And then a male opened the door and pulled the driver

3 out and shouted at him. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And there were "50 youths and men ... females screaming", and

6 then there is a "male wearing a navy shirt. First

7 mention of a specific male." This is his note.

8 We will have to ask him about this.

9 But then he says:

10 "Had got out of the Land Rover at this stage."

11 Do you see that? Do you see the words:

12 "Had got over the Land Rover at this stage"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then immediately after that it says:

15 "Two males lying on the road."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Hm-mm.

18 Q. Now, this may have been disrupted in translation, but

19 that would suggest, P40, on this outline of events that

20 you saw the two males when you got out of the Land

21 Rover. Do you agree that that's how that looks?

22 A. From the context you are taking it in, yes.

23 Q. Is that what happened?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Because, you see, that's not what you said in your

1 statement?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Didn't you tell Detective Sergeant Bradley that you

4 saw the males when you got out of the Land Rover?

5 A. I'm sure if I went through the statement, I said I had

6 seen the two boys, but I don't -- I didn't write that.

7 Q. No. Can we turn, please, to your statement to this

8 inquiry, please?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before we turn the page, had you seen

10 the two men on the road before you got out of the Land

11 Rover?

12 A. No.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

14 MR McGRORY: Page [81149], paragraph 19. It is your

15 statement to the Inquiry. Of course, your evidence in

16 this statement by and large, and to the Inquiry today,

17 is that you got out of the Land Rover, there is nothing

18 too serious going on and a lot of verbal and scrapping

19 and so forth, and you are busy keeping these people back

20 from getting up through Woodhouse Street. At this point

21 in your evidence you haven't seen anybody yet.

22 A. No.

23 Q. And then you said eventually that you did notice the two

24 males, in your statement of the 27th, after you deal

25 with the guys in Woodhouse Street. Isn't that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So what you say here is then:

3 "Another male then came up Woodhouse Street. I believed

4 him to be a Nationalist. He made a dash to go across

5 the road. I grabbed hold of him and could smell alcohol

6 and he appeared to be drunk. I turned this man on to

7 his back and tried to get him up, and as I did so,

8 thought I saw someone flop to the ground as I was

9 looking across the junction towards Thomas Street."

10 A. I didn't see anybody flop to the ground. As I was

11 lifting the man up, I saw a person lying on the ground.

12 Q. Well, let me just read this:

13 "I turned this man on to his back and tried to get

14 him up."

15 This is one of the males you are grappling with at

16 Woodhouse Street?

17 A. Where is that?

18 Q. Paragraph 19, [81149], I'm reading from?

19 A. That's not on here.

20 Q. Are you looking at different pages, I wonder?

21 MR McGRORY: Page 4 of his statement. Perhaps I have got

22 a different version of it.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Which paragraph?

24 MR McGRORY: Paragraph 19.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what we have got on the screen.

1 MR McGRORY: The sentence I'm reading isn't on this. This

2 must have been amended, this statement.

3 Well, I have a version which is different from the

4 one you have agreed so I need to talk about that then.

5 A. I know nothing about that version.

6 Q. I'll tell you what the version I have says, and in

7 fairness to you, you might have to be shown it because

8 I have a version which says:

9 "I turned this man on his back and tried to get him

10 up, and as I did so, thought I saw someone flop on to

11 the ground."

12 A. No, I never said that in my life.

13 Q. For some reason or other, P40, that was on a draft of

14 this statement?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: The statement we have has been signed by the

16 witness.

17 MR McGRORY: Yes. Well, but because I thought I could rely

18 on this, I haven't researched this particular reference

19 in the transcript. But we will come back to that.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Does he say a person "flopping" or "flopped"?

21 MR McGRORY: "I thought I saw someone flop on to the

22 ground."

23 Obviously an early draft of this statement.

24 MR McCOMB: May I be of assistance? In relation to the

25 transcript, it is at either page 54 or 55 of the

1 transcript.

2 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much, Mr McComb.

3 MR McCOMB: 54:

4 "Someone had flopped, so he had", I think.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not at odds with what paragraph 19

6 says.

7 MR McGRORY: Sir, if you will excuse me, I will have to read

8 this for the transcript, sir. If you will allow me just

9 a brief moment.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

11 MR McGRORY: Are these transcripts now on the system? That

12 would help.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, if 54 could be brought up.

14 MR McGRORY: Yes, if 54 could be brought up.

15 Sorry, do you see that? This is your interview,

16 P40, with a member of the Inquiry team and what you told

17 him was that:

18 "The first time was whenever this grey haired man I

19 had put him back and then I tried to keep him out of the

20 trouble, keep them at the Alliance & Leicester. He made

21 a dash across. He tripped, and as I grabbed him, turned

22 him over on the back. As I looked up, I thought I'd

23 seen something there on the other side of the road.

24 "Question: They were lying at the junction?

25 "Answer: I heard you could -- you could just see

1 somebody had flopped, so he had."

2 So the original transcription, I think, it is fair

3 to say, is accurate? What you said was you could just

4 see somebody had flopped?

5 THE CHAIRMAN: As I say, that is less colloquial language,

6 but seems to me to be repeated in the statement. The

7 same substance is there.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR McGRORY: So what I'm suggesting to you, P40, is that

10 this is a detail that you gave to the Inquiry: that you

11 saw somebody fall to the ground?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: He doesn't say "fall to the ground". He had

13 "flopped".

14 A. He is fucking telling it the way he wants to.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet and watch your language.

16 MR McGRORY: Well, if we go to page 56, Mr Stephens says to

17 you:

18 "If you are saying those things then, you have

19 really got to concentrate on what you have said

20 previously. As far as questions are concerned, you say

21 you saw somebody flop down."

22 THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the questioner got it wrong.

23 Just go back to the other page. It is quite clear

24 he saw something that had already happened.

25 MR McGRORY: Well, when Mr Stephens asks you to clarify this,

1 you agreed with him. And he said:

2 "As far as the questions are concerned, you say you

3 saw somebody flop down?

4 "Answer: Yes."

5 Do you see that? And then he again says:

6 "When you turned around to try and stop this person

7 who had gone past you."

8 So really all I'm trying to suggest to you, P40,

9 here is that what you are doing in this interview with

10 the Inquiry is you are trying to make out that somebody

11 had fallen to the ground only then? Only then?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we had better move on from this

13 point.

14 MR McGRORY: Yes, well. I just want to turn finally, P40,

15 please, to your medical report that Mr Underwood

16 discussed with you. I don't want to spend too long on

17 this because it has already been dealt with, but in that

18 medical report you said that you had seen a pool of

19 blood. Isn't that correct?

20 Q. That's what it says in the report.

21 A. I ... I have seen that much --

22 Q. It is at page [39201] of the medical report, [39201].

23 Page 4 of the report:

24 "He told me he did not witness the killing, but he

25 did see the body covered in blood. He told me that the

1 worst aspect of this situation was the loss of life, the

2 helplessness and not being able to do anything."

3 Do you see that? Mr Underwood spoke to you about it

4 this morning.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said to him that you didn't say that to the

7 psychiatrist. Was the purpose of this visit to the

8 psychiatrist in the context of a stress claim you had

9 made?

10 A. I believe so.

11 Q. Yes. Did you make a criminal injury claim following the

12 Robert Hamill incident? Did you make a claim for

13 compensation following the Robert Hamill incident?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, you see, on your account of the incident that you

16 gave in your statement, you didn't actually see very

17 much, did you --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- that would cause you any trauma, I'm suggesting to

20 you? But you have put in a nervous shock claim. Isn't

21 that what happened?

22 A. You are confusing me here.

23 Q. Did you put in a nervous shock claim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you get money?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You didn't? You didn't get any compensation?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No. Do you remember being refused compensation?

5 A. What has this got to do --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me be the decider of that. Just answer

7 the question, please.

8 A. No.

9 MR McGRORY: Do you remember why you were refused

10 compensation?

11 A. I don't think it is finished with yet.

12 Q. Is it finished with or isn't it? Did you get a notice

13 of decision saying you weren't getting compensation?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. But do you agree that that was the purpose of going to

16 the psychiatrist? Were you aware, when you put in your

17 claim, your nervous shock claim, that they were

18 difficult claims to establish, to get money for?

19 A. I don't know the statistics.

20 Q. No, no. In order to get compensation for nervous shock,

21 you must have been aware that you had to establish that

22 you suffered nervous shock?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Did you know that that was what you were trying to do?

25 A. I'm not a doctor.

1 Q. But when you went to see a lawyer about making a claim,

2 do you remember doing that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In order to make the claim?

5 A. Hm-mm.

6 Q. Were you advised that without a physical injury, in

7 order to get compensation, you had to establish nervous

8 shock?

9 A. No. This is not my failure. You are talking above me,

10 here.

11 Q. P40, you put in a claim, looking for money, for

12 compensation because you suffered during the

13 Robert Hamill incident. That's what you claimed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it wasn't a physical injury?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So it had to have been nervous shock?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. And you had to get some advice about whether or not you

20 could make such a claim?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And I'm suggesting to you that you must have been

23 advised that you couldn't establish such a claim unless

24 you could show that you suffered shock?

25 A. Right.

1 Q. In fact, I'm suggesting to you that you had to have been

2 advised that for anyone to establish a shock claim, you

3 had to reach a financial threshold in those days of

4 £2,500?

5 A. As far as I can remember, there was never any figure

6 suggested to me.

7 Q. Well, I'm suggesting to you that the only compensation

8 you could have got at that time would have been £2,500

9 or above. You don't remember anybody telling you

10 anything about that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, is it the case, P40, that what you were doing with

13 Dr xxxxxxxxxx --

14 MR ADAIR: I'm story to interrupt, but I have just been

15 informed by my instructing solicitor that this case is

16 ongoing. I know my friend won't be aware of that as

17 well. I wasn't aware of it actually either. Apparently

18 there is an appeal which is about to be heard. So --

19 THE CHAIRMAN: This is an appeal against an adverse

20 decision, is it?

21 MR ADAIR: I believe so, sir.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: First instance.

23 MR ADAIR: Mr McGrory wasn't aware of that.

24 MR McGRORY: No.

25 MR ADAIR: Unless it is of critical importance, it might be

1 better left, but that's a matter entirely for ...

2 THE CHAIRMAN: He says he knew he was claiming for nervous

3 shock.

4 MR McGRORY: Is it the case that in order to get home on

5 your claim, P40, you needed to embellish what you had

6 seen?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you never mentioned a pool of

9 blood in your 27 April statement. Do you agree with

10 that?

11 A. Yes, that's in my original statement.

12 Q. And you didn't mention it to the detective sergeant when

13 he asked you some questions about your statement?

14 A. There was a broken bottle and ...

15 Q. It is a straightforward question. You never mentioned

16 the blood to the detective sergeant?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Never mentioned blood to the interviewing senior police

19 in September 1997 either?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Now, this psychiatrist saw you on 12 August 1997,

22 September 1997, October 1997, January 2000

23 and April 2000 for the purposes of this report, which is

24 dated 16 May 2000. And you discussed with Mr Underwood

25 a little earlier, P40, the final paragraphs of this

1 statement. Let's start with [39203]. This is your

2 interview with him on 10 April 2000 when you said you

3 had dreams and were sweating:

4 "... and I know now it was guilt."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Whereabouts are you?

7 Q. In the middle paragraph:

8 "... I now know it was guilt."

9 A. Hm-mm.

10 Q. Is that what lies at the bottom of your nervous

11 situation, P40: that it is guilt?

12 A. Have you ever heard of survivor's guilt?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Just answer counsel's question, please.

14 A. In the context you are talking about, no.

15 MR McGRORY: You asked yourself whether you could have fired

16 a shot to disperse the crowd. That's the context in

17 which you are telling the psychiatrist you feel guilty.

18 Not survivor's guilt: whether you could have fired

19 a shot to disperse the crowd. Isn't that how you felt

20 on 10 April 2000?

21 A. Whenever you have been lying in bed in the middle of the

22 night and you went over the scenario and said if only,

23 if only, if only, and you have looked at it from every

24 angle and you have felt yourself being beaten to a pulp

25 inside a coffin and you can see your wife in front of

1 you, a bullet has gone through you, it is not nice.

2 Q. If we turn to page [39204]:

3 "P40 told me that having decided not to intervene,

4 he had not been in severe danger from the crowd."

5 Isn't that the source of your guilt, P40?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You took a decision not to intervene; isn't that right?

8 A. A conscious decision?

9 Q. A conscious decision not to intervene?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Because that's what you are feeling guilty about and

12 that's what you told the psychiatrist?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And after the blacked out bit:

15 "He said this had made him realise that he had

16 a decision to make at the time of his involvement in the

17 incident and he decided to save his own life."

18 Isn't that the decision that you took when you got

19 out of the Land Rover, P40? And isn't that what you

20 meant when you told the interviewing police in 1997

21 that:

22 "My wife would have been following a coffin had

23 I intervened"?

24 A. I may have.

25 Q. I suggest to you, P40, what happened here is that you

1 got out of the Land Rover and you saw the vicious crowd

2 kicking and beating Robert Hamill on the ground, as

3 described by Tracey Clarke, jumping on his head, and

4 that you took a decision. Isn't that what happened?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And the decision was to save your own life --

7 A. I see nobody jumping up and down on anybody.

8 Q. -- and not Robert Hamill's?

9 A. No. That's what you might like me to say.

10 MR McGRORY: Thank you.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Mallon? Do you have some questions?

12 MR MALLON: Yes, I do. They may be some time and it is now

13 20 past one.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We will break off now until ten past two.

15 (1.20 pm)

16 (The short adjournment)

17 (2.16 pm)

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Mallon?

19 Questions by MR MALLON

20 MR MALLON: Thank you, Mr Chairman. If I just refer to you as

21 P40, my name a Mallon and I appear on behalf of Reserve

22 Constable Atkinson. Can you, please, check that on the

23 cipher so know who I'm talking about?

24 A. (Witness nods)

25 Q. Reserve Constable Atkinson was with you in the Land Rover?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As I understand it, you have been a reserve constable

3 for a long number of years?

4 A. I was, yes.

5 Q. Now, do you remember what training you received? If you

6 could go to [44268], please, that is a document that

7 would appear to cover your training. Would you agree

8 with it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you had basically three weeks' training and you were

11 issued with a RUC reserve handbook and then you had

12 further training on the 6th of the 9th 1996. Do you

13 remember what form that training took?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was there any public order training in it? Do you

16 remember being equipped with riot shields, face masks,

17 body armour or anything of that nature?

18 A. I think there was one day I went down to hangar

19 something and it was at the time of -- it was the long

20 shields.

21 Q. So you may have had one day of that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that the extent of your public order training?

24 A. As far as I can mind.

25 Q. Were you ever given any training in how to respond as

1 a small unit to a crowd when you didn't have long

2 shields, protection or anything of that nature?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Had you ever faced a situation like this before, where

5 you had four people against the crowd of maybe 50 or 60?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, do you remember the night of this incident? Do you

8 remember it yourself or do you need something to remind

9 you of it? You can remember bits of it, can you?

10 A. I can remember -- which version --

11 Q. Okay, if we can go to the Land Rover, please, the inside

12 of the Land Rover, the vehicle video through windows

13 section, could we have position LR3, please? Thank you.

14 Now, as I understand that Land Rover being

15 positioned, as it were, against the Halifax at a slight

16 angle in the position of LR3, you were sitting in the

17 back right-hand corner?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And your vision would not have been shown on any of

20 those positions. As I also understand it -- and perhaps

21 you can correct me if I'm wrong -- you were wedged, as

22 it were, at the back of the Land Rover between the door

23 and the Land Rover side?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. With your legs angled into the vehicle?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Because you are tall and in that vehicle you can't put

3 your legs any other way?

4 A. I can't sit up straight.

5 Q. So your back would have been roughly to the direction of

6 Thomas Street?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the windows that you would have been looking at

9 would have been from that corner in the direction of

10 Halifax or down into Woodhouse Street?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. If you were looking anywhere, you would have

13 been to the left-hand side of the Land Rover and looking

14 down that street?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: What about to the front through the

16 windscreen?

17 A. I had a very, very limited view because there is a thing

18 comes up about that height there over the spare wheel

19 and all, and I have to actually duck down to see out

20 through the front window.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

22 MR MALLON: Yes. In the Land Rover there is a barrier

23 between the front and the back and that goes up high.

24 The seating is high and the driver's seat and passenger

25 seat are somewhat lower.

1 A. They're sitting a wee bit lower than we are.

2 Q. Yes. All you see is the roof and a small space below,

3 and to see forward you have to actually crouch down?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell me where your attention was that evening as

6 you were sitting there? Now, before anybody comes, can

7 you describe what you were doing in the Land Rover, in

8 the LR3? You had already had a smoke, you were coming

9 up, you were parked there?

10 A. We were parked there. We pulled over, as far as I can

11 remember, because we had seen the two fellows walking

12 up. The door opened and Stacey, he stuck his head in,

13 said hello to me and pulled his head back out again.

14 Q. If I can just stop you there, and if I could ask for

15 page [10977] to be brought up, please? [10977] is the

16 notebook record of Reserve Constable Cornett.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before we look at that, was

18 Stacey Bridgett looking through the driver's or the

19 passenger door?

20 A. He put his head in the gap there, into the passenger's

21 door and he looked into the back.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

23 MR MALLON: Yes, indeed, I'm just coming to that,

24 Mr Chairman.

25 If one looks at the top four lines of that -- can we

1 just do that, please? -- you will see that -- and I'm

2 not going to use the name -- at 1.40 -- that's [Reserve

3 Constable Cornett] -- at 1.40:

4 "Parked at Instep, then proceeded down High Street

5 when I observed a male in his late 30s or 40s wearing

6 a blue shirt and dark trousers, looking at me and moving

7 his lips."

8 That, I think, was Stacey Bridgett?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Sorry, I beg your pardon, Mr Mallon. If you look at

11 that carefully, do you remember in that sequence

12 Mr Mallon, if we can just go down through the rest of

13 that, please? Thank you. He says four lines:

14 "My friends are coming down Thomas Street."

15 Now, do you remember whether that was shouted in or

16 merely spoken, or did you hear it at all?

17 A. I didn't hear it.

18 Q. You didn't hear it at all?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So whatever was said by a voice outside the Land Rover

21 and to the woman police constable, even in the Land

22 Rover, even at that distance you didn't hear it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Was there much background noise in the Land Rover?

2 A. If you have been in a Land Rover --

3 Q. I haven't when it is in operation, so could you please

4 explain it?

5 A. It is a V8, so it is, and it does make a brave, big

6 noise and -- because of the security stuff on it, it

7 contains it.

8 Q. Right. So the noise of thing in itself would drown out

9 normal conversation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you didn't hear what was said?

12 A. No. I'm sorry.

13 Q. Now, we then come further down, the next few lines:

14 "He then proceeded down Woodhouse Street."

15 That's Mr Mallon leaving the scene and then you

16 have:

17 "Two youths, males, late teens/early 20s came over

18 to me at the Land Rover and started to talk to me."

19 That conveys to me that the two men come over to

20 talk to the woman police constable. She was obviously

21 holding them in conversation. Is that what you

22 remember?

23 A. Yes, she was talking to him, yes.

24 Q. Yes. And one of them nodded in by way of looking for

25 you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But did you hold him in any conversation?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Other than to acknowledge him?

5 A. No, I just acknowledged him.

6 Q. So that's the extent of the conversation. Did Reserve Constable

7 Atkinson have any conversation with him as far as you can remember?

8 A. Who is [Reserve Constable Atkinson]?

9 Q. Would you look at that again, please?

10 A. No.

11 Q. None at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So the conversation, other than asking for you and you

14 acknowledging him, was with the woman police constable

15 and the guys outside?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. She I think in her statement said they were trying to

18 chat her up. She felt they were chatting her up. Did

19 you hear any of that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And yet you were only four or five feet away and you

22 still couldn't hear that?

23 A. I didn't.

24 Q. Why not? Was that a private, quiet conversation? Was

25 that normal banter?

1 A. I couldn't tell you what the conversation was about.

2 Q. Right. What I would like you to do is see if you can

3 explain to the Tribunal, who weren't in the Land Rover,

4 just how difficult it was to hear that kind of

5 conversation?

6 A. I'm sure yous have all sat in a car with two people in

7 the front and music is on, and you can see lips moving

8 but you can't hear what's being said.

9 Q. Now, if you couldn't hear someone that close, you then

10 go on to say that you heard noise outside?

11 A. Hm-mm.

12 Q. Can you describe at what level you heard it in the

13 vehicle?

14 A. It was shouting, but -- I can't quantify it.

15 Q. Did it appear close or distant?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. Were you able to distinguish the nature or did it appear

18 threatening or hostile?

19 A. Sorry?

20 Q. Did the noise appear in any way threatening or hostile?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Right. Were you able to make out any of the words that

23 were used?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In relation to the conversation that you had and after

1 the two boys had been, as it were, dismissed, they had

2 gone --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- and the woman police constable said that she told

5 them to get off, go away home, something that of nature,

6 did you notice that she had dismissed them or did you

7 think they had just turned of their own accord?

8 A. I don't know. I just -- I don't know whether that had

9 stopped before the door opened.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Well, is it possible to conduct a conversation through

13 that closed door?

14 A. I would doubt so.

15 Q. And why is that?

16 A. Because -- because of the thickness of the armour on it.

17 It is plate steel, as far as I can remember.

18 Q. Can you go back, please, to the vehicle video again?

19 Thank you very much. You were sitting in the back

20 right-hand corner. Do you see the window that is to

21 your left on the door?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember checking that or looking out of that to

24 see what the cause of the noise was?

25 A. To be honest, I can't.

1 Q. Now, if you had have wanted to look up Thomas Street --

2 A. Right.

3 Q. -- would that have been possible from where you were

4 sitting?

5 A. No, I would have had to have moved over to about there.

6 Q. Yes, across --

7 THE CHAIRMAN: So it was possible if you moved a little to

8 your right and turned your head round?

9 A. No, that's about there in relation to me.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just looking at the diagram we have got.

11 A. I was sitting to the left.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I understand that.

13 A. But it wasn't --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't say that. I said if you moved along

15 a little to your right and turned, you would then be

16 able to see.

17 A. Yes, sorry.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: That's all I asked.

19 A. Sorry.

20 MR MALLON: If you had moved up to your right to

21 approximately the position where the eye is behind the

22 driver and looked left out of that, you would have had

23 then a chance to see up the road?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, if you had looked up that road, would you have seen

1 the whole of the way up Thomas Street?

2 A. I think, even -- I think if you look up Thomas Street,

3 it rises and it goes round to your right-hand side

4 a bit.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. So you couldn't physically see from top to bottom, from

7 bottom to top.

8 Q. Yes. Now, when you were there -- and if I could ask for

9 page [61114] in your interview with detective

10 inspector -- and I haven't got his cipher just to hand,

11 but it was a detective inspector. And do you see when

12 you were talking to him about that, you are talking

13 about the positions LR2 at the top one half of the page.

14 That was with Inspector Irwin -- said:

15 You "see a couple of fellows walking up past ..."

16 Then you were fed that answer. You see Stacey

17 coming up. Then you were asked:

18 "Can you recall seeing anybody in Thomas Street?"

19 Now, were you aware when you were looking up at

20 Thomas Street that friends of Mr Mallon were expected

21 down it?

22 A. No, I don't think so.

23 Q. You don't think so?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Now, that's not a crowd of people, friends of Mr Mallon.

1 Do you know or have you ever ascertained how many

2 friends were expected?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Whether that was a general warning or just a throwaway

5 statement that people were coming. Did you ever know

6 anything about it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Then you were asked:

9 "Can you recall seeing anybody in Thomas Street at

10 all?

11 "Answer: No."

12 It was clarified by.

13 "Question: Nobody in Thomas Street?

14 "Answer: No."

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mallon, you introduced the proposition

16 that the people coming were friends of Mr Mallon. I

17 don't think friends figured you in the warning he gave,

18 did it?

19 MR MALLON: It did in the evidence that was to be given by

20 Reserve Constable Cornett directly from your notebook

21 I referred to, page [10977]. For completeness:

22 "My friends are coming down Thomas Street," was the

23 nature of the warning that she recorded.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, thank you.

25 MR MALLON: So when you looked up Thomas Street, there was

1 "nobody in Thomas Street?"

2 "Answer: No.

3 "Question: Well?"

4 "Answer: This is the first two people." Then you were asked:

5 "How can you be so certain?"

6 The questioner said:

7 "It is quite restricted a view out of the Land Rover

8 at this stage."

9 And you agree with him:

10 "Good point. There might have been, putting it that

11 away. I didn't see nobody, but there might have been."

12 So when you looked up Thomas Street do you agree

13 that your vision was restricted? Yes?

14 Now, by what was it restricted?

15 A. Well, it was restricted, I suppose, you know, to the

16 distance up Thomas Street and to the visibility either

17 side.

18 Q. Could we have the Land Rover back again, please, the

19 inside view looking out? And this time with the fields

20 of view from the sides of the vehicle going out through

21 the windows. You have marked that, but I actually want

22 to see the actual views, please. That's super.

23 Now, that is, I think, the side that is opposite you

24 looking towards Thomas Street. You would agree that

25 that's quite narrow?

1 THE CHAIRMAN: That because you're sitting on the other side

2 of the vehicle?

3 MR MALLON: Indeed. So he wouldn't even have seen that

4 much. Could we then look at the other ones, please,

5 just to go through in sequence, please. Again, that was

6 someone sitting on the opposite side of the vehicle than

7 you were sitting and, again, they could see a limited

8 amount. Again, a very limited amount.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, Mr Mallon, I don't think that

10 views from the other side of the Land Rover are really

11 helping us. The closer you get to a window, albeit

12 a narrow window, the more you can see. If I look so, I

13 can see a much more limited view than if I look like

14 this. Let's get on to something which may help us, but

15 not this.

16 MR MALLON: In respect of even if you had turned round to

17 look, do you agree that the amount that you could have

18 seen from those windows was very limited?

19 A. Very limited.

20 Q. And then you have that and you have the two boys coming

21 and leaving. The next major incident appears to have

22 been somebody pulling the driver out of the vehicle. I

23 think it is Constable Neill. Can you just check, please?

24 Constable Neill is grabbed by the arm according to you

25 and pulled out of the vehicle.

1 Now, when that was happening, I'm not interested in

2 what you saw but did you hear what that person was

3 shouting or saying? Could you make it out?

4 A. I can't recall what was shouted, no.

5 Q. Did it cause you concern?

6 A. It could have been at that stage that we left the

7 vehicle.

8 Q. Yes, I think you probably did. But what I'm doing is

9 trying to focus on what your reaction was when you saw

10 him being manhandled out of the vehicle, and did you

11 hear anything which would have alarmed you or caused you

12 to think that there was something else that you had

13 missed?

14 A. It was a surprise. As far as I can remember, there was

15 the two fellows. Next thing, the door opened and -- I

16 didn't see where he was grabbed. I can't remember --

17 you know, you could -- the motion -- it was as if

18 somebody was pulling him.

19 Q. Can I refer you to page [61115], please? About halfway

20 down that page, do you see how you describe it there:

21 "What happened after that? Somebody, a male

22 person opened Alan's door

23 and started trying, he started

24 pulling at Alan and shouting. He

25 started shouting at him, so he did."

1 A. Yes.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: So you could hear him shouting?

3 A. I could hear noise. I had couldn't hear the words, I

4 could hear shouting.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

6 MR MALLON: Did you hear shouting as he approached the

7 vehicle before the door was opened?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So it was only after the door was opened and he had laid

10 hands on Constable Neill that you heard him shouting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, was it coherent shouting? Could you understand it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did it appear to be drunken shouting?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Was it abusive?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. So you see this happening, somebody shouting, and you

19 see a police officer being physically trailed out of the

20 Land Rover. What do you think then?

21 A. I don't think I thought anything. I think that --

22 Q. Were you surprised? Were you shocked?

23 A. I couldn't tell you.

24 Q. You didn't think anything?

25 A. I think I was just -- you know, bang, out you get.

1 Q. I'm just wondering what your state of mind was when you

2 saw this happening. If you can't remember, say so?

3 A. I can't.

4 Q. What then did you do? Who opened the door? Who kicked

5 the doors open?

6 A. Oh, God, I don't know.

7 Q. Is that the normal way? These doors are heavy, someone

8 will kick the door open and someone will then use that

9 as a means of exit? Is that what normally happens? The

10 doors are armoured, they are very heavy. Do you

11 normally open them with your feet or do you push them?

12 A. The two back doors --

13 Q. The back doors. My client will say -- R/Con Atkinson will say --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that's not a proper form of question.

15 Put your question to him.

16 MR MALLON: Would it not normally be the situation that

17 those doors were kicked open or pushed open with feet?

18 A. They are heavy, but you are never really in that much

19 rush to get them open.

20 Q. Well, this was unusual, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And there was a rush to open the doors, wasn't there?

23 A. I can't remember opening the doors.

24 Q. You can't remember opening the doors?

25 A. No.

1 Q. But you found yourself outside the doors?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you get out before Reserve Constable Atkinson or did Reserve

4 Constable Atkinson get out before you, or do you remember?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Reserve Constable Atkinson will say -- he will say --

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No, please. You do not tell us what the

8 evidence will be. You put a question. That's

9 a fundamental part of the role of an advocate not to put

10 questions in that way.

11 MR MALLON: I have to suggest to you that a police officer

12 went straight round from the back of that Land Rover to

13 the scene where Constable Neill was being manhandled and

14 that that was Reserve Constable Atkinson.

15 A. I can't tell you.

16 Q. Now, you then said that you looked around and you could

17 see that there was disorder?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At that time I think you have also made it clear that

20 you didn't see bodies down; is that right? Did anyone

21 take command of your actions or those of the other

22 officers in the vehicle?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did anybody say, "Stop and think"?

25 A. No.

100

1 Q. Did anybody direct you to do anything? If the vehicle

2 commander was Constable Neill, being the senior officer

3 there, and he was incapacitated from giving orders

4 because of his involvement with a drunk, who then would

5 take charge in the vehicle?

6 A. (Witness shakes head)

7 Q. You don't know?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you then went out of the vehicle and you seem to

10 remember going and -- sorry, are you --

11 A. My head is sore, yes.

12 Q. If I'm going too quickly, please tell me. You then get

13 out of the vehicle. The impression was of disorder?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it localised or was it spread over the whole of the

16 intersection?

17 A. It wasn't localised. It just wasn't people standing

18 around a football.

19 Q. Was there any one particular place you could have gone

20 to quell that disorder?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did that mean then that the police officers would have

23 had to spread themselves over the whole of the junction?

24 I think you describe four or five fights. Isn't that

25 right?

101

1 A. Yes, yes. There was no --

2 Q. Scuffles or whatever?

3 A. Scuffles.

4 Q. Four or five scuffles at about that time. Did you think

5 at that time, "We are short of resources here to tackle

6 this"?

7 A. I did not have time to think.

8 Q. Well, you had time to worry?

9 A. I don't think you had time to worry.

10 Q. What then did you do?

11 A. When I was out, a person came over to me. He shouted --

12 what did he shout? And I got -- I physically moved him

13 back over towards the building -- that corner there.

14 Q. So you physically grabbed somebody immediately you got

15 out?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Within, what, a few seconds?

18 A. It is hard to say.

19 Q. Now, you were also, I think, the man in the Land Rover

20 who carried the rifle; is that right?

21 A. I'm not sure whether I had one that night or not. I

22 can't remember.

23 Q. Right, you can't remember if you had a rifle that night.

24 Do you know if anyone else was carrying a rifle that

25 night?

102

1 A. I can't.

2 Q. Was it not standard procedure to have a rifle in that

3 time, 1997?

4 A. If you are doing -- if you are doing ordinary patrol in

5 a Land Rover for VCPs, et cetera, to give cover, yes.

6 But in a public order situation, I'm not sure about ...

7 Q. Well, we will ask someone else. If you can't remember,

8 you can't remember.

9 A. I'm not sure.

10 Q. I was just wondering if that is why you wouldn't lock

11 somebody in the vehicle because a rifle might be left in

12 it? If you had somebody that you wanted to keep -- you

13 throw them into the vehicle, you lock the doors and they

14 are not going to go anywhere. But if there is a rifle

15 in there, you might have to take it out before you would

16 put them in. That's the only reason I'm asking you.

17 A. I don't know whether there was or not.

18 Q. You see, nobody was locked in that vehicle?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or left or put there, but they were under supervision

21 and then they were let out.

22 Now, if the senior officer is incapable, through

23 force of circumstances or injury or any other reason, of

24 taking control of that vehicle, I want to suggest to you

25 that you should have got back into it, driven it across

103

1 the road and put it between the crowd and the bodies.

2 You suggested that in your statement to the

3 psychiatrist. You were worried about firing a shot and

4 you were also worried about -- thinking maybe the Land

5 Rover would have been better placed between the bodies

6 and the crowd to offer them the protection of its hard

7 shell. Did anybody think of that and did anybody talk

8 to you about that?

9 A. (Witness shakes head)

10 Q. If the Land Rover had been the block between the crowd

11 and the bodies, would you have felt more secure?

12 A. Everything is good in hindsight.

13 Q. Everything is good in hindsight. Now, do you know

14 whether there is any training available for dealing with

15 this type of situation where there is a small number of

16 police officers in an armoured vehicle dealing with

17 a crowd?

18 A. If there is, I don't know about it.

19 Q. Now, you have seen in riot situations where the police

20 put Land Rovers between the crowd and people?

21 A. (Witness nods)

22 Q. Now, is that something that an individual does off his

23 own bat or do you think that that's what they are

24 trained to do?

25 A. That's -- I take it that they are taught to do that.

104

1 Q. You were never taught to do that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You were never trained to do that? Now, whose idea was

4 it to rush from the back of the Land Rover into the

5 crowd? Did you get an order to do that or did you do it

6 spontaneously?

7 A. I didn't rush over into the crowd.

8 Q. No, you didn't; you grabbed someone else and put them

9 down Woodhouse Street?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But there were three others in the vehicle. Did you

12 hear anyone being ordered into the crowd?

13 A. I don't know where the rest went.

14 Q. You don't know where the rest went?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, when you had that done and when you had yourself in

17 the vehicle and you had yourself before the incident,

18 were you tired?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you think that that tiredness at the end of the shift

21 may have stopped you thinking or reacting quickly or

22 clearly? Between the end of your duty and the start of

23 the second duty, did you get any length of a break?

24 A. You get time for a quick coffee.

25 Q. A quick coffee. Five/ten minutes?

105

1 A. If you get ten, that's it.

2 Q. And then you are back out again?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, when you were in the vehicle, opposite you was an

5 officer. That was Reserve Constable Atkinson.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you see what he was doing at all?

8 A. At what stage?

9 Q. After he got out of the vehicle and before you went back

10 to the police station that night?

11 A. Whenever I got out and took charge of -- I just -- that

12 was my concern.

13 Q. Yes. But, you see, you then said that after you

14 released that person, you went back into the line and

15 helped to push the crowd back up towards St Mark's

16 church?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in that line there were a lot of other officers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, do you know whether you joined the line after the

23 first liveried vehicle or the second armoured car or the

24 MSU came? I'm trying to say how long were you offside

25 before you became involved in that line?

106

1 A. I couldn't tell you.

2 Q. You don't know?

3 A. I can't remember.

4 Q. When you joined the line, were there many officers in

5 it? Was there just two or three?

6 A. No, there was more.

7 Q. There was more?

8 A. There was more.

9 Q. So if there was more than three, it means some other

10 vehicles had arrived?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you didn't join that line until some other vehicles

13 had arrived. I think the first vehicle arrived with two

14 in it?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Would there have been four in the line? If you can't

17 remember, I know, it is a long time ago. You can't

18 remember? But your impression is, I think, that there

19 were a lot of police there then?

20 A. There was people -- there was police to this side and

21 there was police to this side. But I think there was

22 more to this side.

23 Q. More to your left?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Right. Have you any sort of a notion of how many

107

1 police: two, three, four, five? I'm not suggesting

2 there would be double figures.

3 A. No.

4 Q. There wouldn't have been double figures?

5 A. No.

6 Q. That was before the mobile support unit arrived?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: He hasn't actually said yes or no to that.

8 Was that before the mobile service unit arrived?

9 A. I don't know.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

11 MR MALLON: If the mobile support unit had arrived, there

12 would have been about a dozen officers in that, wouldn't

13 there?

14 A. If a full MSU had arrived, there would have been 24 --

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. -- officers.

17 Q. You would have been tripping over policemen?

18 A. Hm-mm.

19 Q. Was that the case?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So the MSU hadn't arrived?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Right. Just so that we know, when the MSU come, they

24 don't come in one drib and drab, they come as a unit;

25 isn't that right? So you get them all or you get

108

1 nothing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if 24 officers arrived, there were four sergeants in

4 that street with six already there, that would have been

5 over 30 officers and you would have been tripping over

6 them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Right. They eventually did come. Do you remember that?

9 A. Vaguely.

10 Q. You vaguely remember them coming. Yes. So the

11 impression was always there was plenty of police?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then the crowd could be brought under control. Then

14 they could be moved away.

15 Now, when you joined the crowd, you were aware of

16 two persons lying on the ground?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And surrounded by maybe 40/50 people? If you can

19 remember, please help me.

20 A. I think whenever I came across -- no, I'm not sure.

21 Q. Okay. So then you go back into your Land Rover. Were

22 you in the back of Land Rover going home, as it were, to

23 the police station, at around 03:30?

24 A. Yes, from what I remember at the time.

25 Q. This had been a long duty. You had had to deal with

109

1 this incident. Were you tired?

2 A. (Witness nods) Yes.

3 Q. Very tired?

4 A. (Witness nods)

5 Q. Could you think clearly? Would you be in a position to

6 give a coherent view of what had gone on that night?

7 You wouldn't?

8 A. I found it very hard even driving home.

9 Q. You find it very hard even driving home. Would that

10 have been the same from those people that you saw in the

11 vehicle, were they all tired?

12 A. They were all tired.

13 Q. Was there much conversation?

14 A. (Witness shakes head)

15 Q. Shattered would be the word, would it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They had also been through a very frightening

18 experience. You had been through a very frightening

19 experience. At one time Reserve Constable Cornett was

20 on the radio in the vehicle?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were at the top of Woodhouse Street, two officers

23 were left: Constable Neill and Reserve Constable Atkinson.

24 Two officers facing a crowd of at least 50. Did you ever

25 get any training for what to do in those circumstances?

110

1 A. (Witness shakes head)

2 Q. Would you have felt happier dealing with that crowd if

3 you had had riot gear, protective gear and a riot gun?

4 A. No.

5 Q. It wouldn't have made any difference?

6 A. (Witness shakes head)

7 Q. Were you taught that you don't help a casualty and

8 become a casualty yourself? Were you ever taught that:

9 When you are giving first aid, the first thing you do is

10 make sure you are safe yourself. You bring the casualty

11 to a position of safety and then you treat them?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not quite the question you asked him.

13 MR MALLON: I understand that, but I'm trying to lead up to

14 the normal way that would be taught. When you were

15 being taught first aid --

16 SIR JOHN EVANS: He hasn't been taught first aid, has he?

17 MR MALLON: I thought you had a course in first aid. It

18 might have been later.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Shall we look at his training record? It

20 will tell us.

21 MR MALLON: Yes. Training record. I had that.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: [44268].

23 MR MALLON: [44268], thank you. Yes, on 12 November 1999

24 you seem to have done a first aid course.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

111

1 MR MALLON: When you were trained in first aid, were you

2 first taught to assess the situation and not to put

3 yourself in a position of danger?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. You can't recall. Well, perhaps someone more

6 experienced will be able to answer that.

7 Now, when those two officers went up against that

8 crowd, they left the Land Rover, they left the place of

9 safety. Did it occur to you to bring the Land Rover

10 over to them to provide them with its bulk and its

11 protection? No? Did you speak to Reserve Constable

12 Cornett when she was in the vehicle?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When you passed the vehicle, was Reserve Constable

15 Cornett in the vehicle or out of the vehicle?

16 A. Whenever I --

17 Q. When you passed it to go to the crowd, to deal with the

18 crowd, after you had left the people in

19 Woodhouse Street, you left them down there, you said you

20 joined the cordon across the road of the police

21 officers?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You must have passed the vehicle to do that?

24 A. No, because that was behind me and I went over.

25 Q. So you passed it to your left?

112

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember, was there anyone inside it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, in a situation of danger, which you apprehended --

5 now, if I go back to page [61113]. In the middle that

6 of page, please.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: We need to go back, not forwards.

8 MR MALLON: [61111], please. Thank you. Just in the middle

9 that of page, please, the question is:

10 "What would you do if you thought there was going to

11 be sectarian conflict?

12 "Answer: If you could feel it in the air, you know.

13 "Question: Yeah if you could feel it in the air.

14 "Answer: If you could feel it coming, if you could

15 feel it in the air, you get back-up."

16 The first thing that you would do if you thought

17 there was a sectarian racket or a sectarian row going to

18 spill over into trouble, the first thing you would do,

19 you would order, if you were in control, is back-up.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, back up where or into what?

21 A. They get more personnel.

22 MR MALLON: Back-up means back-up vehicles and other

23 personnel there.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.

25 MR MALLON: You would understand that sectarian conflict is

113

1 not a normal public order situation, it is more serious

2 than that and the first thing that you would ask for

3 is back-up?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: He has said that already.

5 MR MALLON: Yes. Now, in this instance where you were

6 sitting in the town and already the disorder had

7 developed, did it occur to you to go to the radio and

8 get back-up?

9 A. I hadn't time to bless myself, never mind ...

10 THE CHAIRMAN: The evidence is that I think at 1.16 and 37

11 seconds, or 1.15 and 37 seconds, the police woman called

12 for back-up?

13 MR MALLON: And the relevance is -- you have interrupted me

14 in a question. I wanted to put to this witness that the

15 policewoman was in fact delegated to do this.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, then, put it.

17 MR MALLON: If you didn't think of doing it, was it in your

18 mind that there was somebody who was delegated to do

19 that within the Land Rover?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who was that? Was that Reserve Constable Cornett?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, did it occur to you that that might not have been

24 done?

25 A. No.

114

1 Q. You had enough confidence in it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you aware that she had got out of the Land Rover,

4 run into the crowd, realised she didn't have her radio

5 and had to go back to the Land Rover to make a call and

6 to use the main radio in the vehicle, so she didn't

7 actually do what she was supposed to do: make the call?

8 A. I can't answer for that.

9 Q. She will answer to that. But what I'm suggesting to you

10 is that you didn't know whether she had done her job

11 properly or not, but you trusted her to do it. Is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you then got into the crowd. Did you trust the

15 police officers on either side of you to do their job

16 properly?

17 A. Of course.

18 Q. What did you conceive that job to be?

19 A. Whenever -- the line, to hold that line to make

20 a sterile area behind us.

21 Q. Did you know at that time whether the persons on the

22 ground were Protestants or Catholics?

23 A. What do you mean?

24 Q. Did you know that the persons who were on the ground,

25 the injured parties, were Protestants or Catholics?

115

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did it make a difference to you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Has it ever made a difference to you in your job?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you didn't know whether a Protestant was lying on the

7 ground or a Catholic was lying on the ground?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you know that a Catholic crowd of four people or six

10 people, a group of friends, had come down that road and

11 been provocative?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know what kicked this whole situation off?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you know they were going down challenging the

16 Protestants and, indeed, involving themselves in

17 fighting with them before you even saw it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did it make any difference to you where the people had

20 come from or was it more important that they be

21 protected because they were injured?

22 A. Because they were injured.

23 Q. Now, in doing that, did you put your own personal safety

24 at risk?

25 A. I never thought about it.

116

1 Q. I suggest to you you did and that you were aware that

2 that crowd could have overwhelmed you. You certainly

3 were aware of it when you woke up worried about it at

4 a later date, weren't you? So whether you recognised it

5 at the time, it certainly did affect you?

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That's about four questions in one. Now,

7 please, can we have one question at a time.

8 MR MALLON: Thank you. One question. Question number 1:

9 were you frightened that you could have been overwhelmed

10 by that crowd either then or later?

11 A. Later, when I thought about it.

12 Q. Four against 50 or four against 60: what odds would you

13 have given in that situation of coming out uninjured?

14 A. I wouldn't be betting on it.

15 Q. Without protection, with only a short baton to use

16 against that crowd, would you have felt more secure or

17 less secure than if you had been properly equipped for

18 that situation?

19 A. If we had had the proper stuff, it gives you a fighting

20 chance.

21 Q. If you had the proper stuff it gives you a fighting

22 chance?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You went in there without a fighting chance, didn't you?

25 At any time you could have been overwhelmed?

117

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you had could have been laid on the ground and you

3 could have been kicked unconscious; isn't that right?

4 A. Right, right.

5 Q. And you were well aware of that, weren't you?

6 A. Not at the time.

7 Q. Well, certainly when you were interviewed -- if I could

8 call up page [61113], fourth block down, it begins:

9 "Because the police are hated on both sides of the

10 community in Portadown and if you are out there

11 stranded, a fight can break out that quick, so it can.

12 How do you explain it? You know, if four people are

13 walking past you can get a dig in the head very

14 quickly."

15 That's very disjointed, but are you really saying

16 there that four people can at any time turn and attack

17 a policeman?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Without warning?

20 A. (Witness nods)

21 Q. Have you been on the streets in fact when policemen have

22 been killed?

23 A. Unfortunately.

24 Q. Yes, you have, haven't you?

25 A. (Witness nods)

118

1 Q. And it is a very dangerous situation because you

2 wouldn't even patrol out of a Land Rover then, sure you

3 wouldn't, because the streets were that dangerous. It

4 is nothing to be ashamed of, it is a fact: that you were

5 frightened that night, weren't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you had worked with -- sorry, would you like a few

8 moments?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: We can take a ten-minute break. How much

10 longer do you think you will be, Mr Mallon?

11 MR MALLON: About 20 minutes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Make it a quarter of hour and then you will

13 sit down.

14 Ten minutes.

15 (3.10 pm)

16 (Short break)

17 (3.24 pm)

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, 15 minutes starting now, Mr Mallon.

19 MR MALLON: In relation to the situation that you found

20 yourself in at the end of the evening, when you were

21 going back in the Land Rover and before you were

22 released, who had the authority to release you to go

23 home that evening? Was it a sergeant or an inspector?

24 A. It would be the inspector if they had an inspector on,

25 the senior role.

119

1 Q. And did anyone ask you or take you into any sort of

2 a situation one-on-one where they asked to you name

3 people or to identify them or to show them pictures or

4 to agree anything with them?

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have been through this once,

6 haven't we? Let's move on.

7 MR MALLON: During that time do you remember whether

8 Reserve Constable Atkinson was with you or not?

9 A. When he was with me in what circumstance?

10 Q. He came back to the police station with you in the Land

11 Rover. When you were in, did you go in as a group of

12 four or were you taken individually in, or how did you

13 get in to where you were going? Did you travel

14 together?

15 A. Yes, we travelled all together, parked the Land Rover

16 up, brought our kit in, whoever signed their bits and

17 pieces in and that was it, went home.

18 Q. And were you ordered to go home or were you got together

19 and told you could leave? Was there any form of meeting

20 where you were told, "Night's over, boys, go home"?

21 A. I don't know who.

22 Q. You don't know who did that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You worked with R/Con Atkinson for how many years at this time?

25 A. I can't remember.

120

1 Q. A long time?

2 A. Hm-mm.

3 Q. Did you have great reliance one on the other in that

4 small unit?

5 A. We were part of a team.

6 Q. Did you function well together, in your opinion?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you then surprised that allegations came out about

9 Reserve Constable Atkinson? Allegations were made to

10 you at a function? If you would like to go to page

11 [81152] and paragraph 35, you say:

12 "I became aware of that inquiry into Reserve

13 Constable Atkinson through conversations with other

14 officers at work."

15 A. Hm-mm.

16 Q. Do you remember when that was? You are quite certain it

17 was with police officers and that would tend to suggest

18 the station?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So this was common knowledge and talked about in the

21 station to you?

22 A. I don't know whether it was common knowledge, but

23 I can't even mind who I heard it off.

24 Q. Was it a uniformed officer or was it a non-uniformed

25 officer?

121

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Can you remember what the nature of the

3 conversation was?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You go on to detail it in paragraph 36. Was that

6 provided to you by Detective Chief Inspector -- and he

7 has got the nominal K. Did he specify the allegations

8 to you at that meeting?

9 A. Not ... more or less -- that telephone call.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. But I suppose I was only told what I needed to know.

12 Q. But you are also gossiping, apparently, to Constable

13 Neill about it, if you look down that paragraph?

14 A. To be quite honest, I was rather drunk that night.

15 Q. You may well have been drunk, but you were a drunken

16 gossip.

17 A. I can't deny it, that's the truth.

18 Q. Where did you hear the substance to gossip about? Did

19 you get it from a senior detective?

20 A. Are you talking about this detective, K?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Before you met him?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. This was a colleague you are talking about, someone you

122

1 had shared a section with, and you can't remember?

2 A. Hm-mm.

3 MR MALLON: Thank you.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair? Mr Green?

5 Questions by MR GREEN

6 MR GREEN: P40, I really just want to ask you a very few

7 questions about the time when you joined your colleagues

8 over at the Loyalist crowd. Do you remember that? And

9 it is dealt with, I think, in paragraph 19 of your

10 statement to the Inquiry at page [81149].

11 You discuss there in paragraph 19 that you dealt

12 with the person, or you saw a person lying on the

13 ground:

14 "It was just a brief look as I was pulling the man

15 up and I do not know how or why he went to the ground.

16 I put the male in the grey sweatshirt into

17 Woodhouse Street and went across the street to assist my

18 colleagues."

19 I think you have clarified this afternoon or this

20 morning, was it, that in fact your colleagues included

21 not just the other members of the Land Rover crew but

22 also other constables. Is that right? Did I hear that

23 right?

24 A. I went across to --

25 Q. That the colleagues you are telling us about there were

123

1 not just the constables from the Land Rover crew, but by

2 that stage other police had joined in support?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You have a clear recollection of that? I just want you

5 to think about that if you can for a moment. (Pause)

6 Do you remember giving that evidence earlier today?

7 It was Mr Mallon perhaps was asking you the questions.

8 A. Yes, the line was made up of a number of people, yes.

9 Q. Yes, because he was asking you about the line of police

10 and you said that it included others apart from the Land

11 Rover crew.

12 Well, at paragraph 21 there, P40, you then tell us

13 what you did with your colleagues, but you only mention

14 two of the constables who were with you in the Land

15 Rover crew. Is that because that's the only two that

16 you recall or is that because that's the only two you

17 worked with? You do not make any reference to any other

18 constables apart from those two. Do you see that,

19 paragraph 21?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Just go over the page. You tell us about:

22 "... women screaming and shouting from the men on

23 the ground and we were pushing the Loyalists

24 back."

25 "We" meaning your other colleagues from the Land

124

1 Rover crew; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then in paragraph 22 -- I don't want you to go through

4 that again, but you describe a person with black hair

5 and it is a quite a detailed description. And that, in

6 essence, is lifted from the statement that you provided

7 on 27 April 1997; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, the crowd that you were dealing with -- that is you

10 and your two colleagues, and whether there were others,

11 I'm not really that concerned about -- but the Loyalist

12 crowd that you were dealing with were quite aggressive

13 according to your evidence. Isn't that right?

14 A. Hm-mm.

15 Q. Did you have your back to the persons who were now on

16 the ground?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were dealing with the Loyalist mob in front of

19 you. Is that right? The only person who you describe

20 is this one person; isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is there any particular reason why there is only one

23 person that you describe?

24 A. Because he was there and --

25 Q. Is it because he was right in front of you?

125

1 A. He was -- he stuck out for his actions.

2 Q. And this is at a time when you were with the two

3 colleagues who you mention in paragraph 21?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you heard that particular person saying, "Hope he

6 fucking dies". Is that right?

7 A. I wasn't sure about it at the time. That -- the

8 conversation -- I can't -- it was -- I think he sort of

9 suggested it was the words said.

10 Q. Sorry, who suggested? DS Bradley, is that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He suggested that this person was shouting, "Hope he

13 fucking dies"?

14 A. He was -- it was -- it was in the context of, you know,

15 he was giving me a picture of what others had said and

16 I knew -- and then I could hear him saying it.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You are saying "hear him". Do you mean the

18 man who said it?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: That brought it to your mind, did it?

21 A. It brought back the memory of the words.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

23 MR GREEN: Because we know from what you have said there in

24 paragraph 22 that that particular phrase didn't make it

25 into a statement -- isn't that right? -- of yours?

126

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And neither did it make it into a notebook. Isn't that

3 right? Well, we have your notebook and it is not there.

4 A. Right.

5 Q. When you had the discussion with DS Bradley, was that

6 an important discussion? Did you consider it was an

7 important piece of material that you had left out of

8 your statement and your notebook?

9 A. Erm, I can't remember the full conversation.

10 Q. And in fact it wasn't until the Inquiry put you over

11 these matters or in fact gave you a lot of documentation

12 that it ever occurred to you again after these

13 statements and notebooks were written up, that this was

14 information that you had to give. Isn't that right?

15 Because it is only in 2006 that you put on the record

16 that this person made this comment. Isn't that right?

17 That is right. It is only during --

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. -- the period of time -- well, correct me if I am wrong.

20 It is only during the period of time when you are being

21 asked to provide a statement to this Inquiry that you

22 connect the two together. Isn't that right?

23 A. I can't argue with it.

24 Q. And even when this turned into a murder investigation --

25 and it turned into a murder investigation very shortly,

127

1 within two weeks of that conversation with DS Bradley --

2 it didn't occur to you that this was a piece of information

3 that you really ought to either make a note of or to

4 ensure that you made a statement about?

5 A. No.

6 Q. No. And nobody came to you to ask you to make

7 a statement; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The person that you saw at paragraph 22, looking back

10 now, did his behaviour give cause for you to think that

11 you might have had a reason to arrest him? Do you think

12 you had the power to arrest him?

13 Just look at the statement and what you are telling

14 us this person is doing. Does it strike you that that

15 person there and then was committing a criminal offence?

16 A. He might have been committing a criminal offence, but

17 would it have been safe to arrest him in them

18 circumstances --

19 Q. The question --

20 A. -- with so few policemen.

21 Q. The question of arresting him, for whatever reason,

22 didn't occur to you. Is that right? It might be

23 because you didn't have the manpower. It might be --

24 A. No, it didn't occur to me.

25 Q. It didn't occur to you. And it was when DS Bradley,

128

1 he spoke to you then later on the morning of the 27th --

2 isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he asked you, according to your evidence earlier

5 today, to change your statement because according to

6 your evidence this morning, there wasn't a whole pile in

7 it. I have checked the transcript and that's what has

8 been described, that he asked you to change your

9 statement?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: He said that, and then a sentence or two

11 later he said was there anything I wanted to add to my

12 statement, or words to that effect.

13 MR GREEN: I'm grateful, sir, you did qualify it. So did he

14 ask to you change it because there wasn't a whole pile

15 in it, or did he ask you to have a look at it, or what

16 is your recollection?

17 A. To me -- it was an opportunity to redo it, whatever way

18 you look at it. At the time I made it, I was -- I

19 wasn't really fit to make one.

20 Q. Well, DS Bradley had looked at the other statements of the

21 other constables -- isn't that right? -- and he had told

22 you what they had said. Isn't that right? You have

23 told us that already about five or ten minutes ago. I

24 think you will find that you told us that he had told

25 you what other police constables had said and he was

129

1 quizzing you effectively about what you had said. Isn't

2 that right?

3 A. I can't argue.

4 Q. Sorry. You then deal with this in paragraph 31, if we

5 can bring that up, of your statement to the Inquiry.

6 I'll just read paragraph 31:

7 "Stacey Bridgett is the only person who I have

8 named, but there were other people in retrospect who

9 I saw but didn't write down their names."

10 Now, you are telling us there that there were other

11 people who you could have named. Isn't that right?

12 A. No, I didn't know their names.

13 Q. "Stacey Bridgett is the only person who I have named,

14 but there were other people in retrospect who I saw but

15 didn't write down their names"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Well, why didn't you say, "I didn't write down their

18 names because I didn't know them"? You didn't say that,

19 did you? You have a clear indication there that you

20 simply didn't write down their names. Then in the next

21 sentence:

22 "I think this was due to my being tired and not

23 having the time to debrief with my colleagues."

24 You don't in that sentence, which would give

25 a reason why you couldn't name them, say, "I didn't name

130

1 them because I couldn't name them." Isn't that right?

2 A. That's your perspective.

3 Q. With all due respect, it is what that statement is

4 telling us. So if you have something other than the

5 natural interpretation of that sentence to tell us, then

6 please do. Have I read that wrong and is everyone else

7 reading that statement, reading it wrong? Is it

8 something else you are trying to say?

9 A. What I was trying to say, when you police an area, you

10 know loads of faces but it doesn't necessarily mean you

11 know everybody's name.

12 Q. That was your opportunity in paragraph 31 to say that

13 you didn't know the name. You don't say that, P40, do

14 you? What you do go on to say, however, is:

15 "I cannot remember these persons now."

16 Now, if there was any doubt in the preceding

17 sentences of that paragraph about what you were saying

18 there, there can be no doubt what you are saying there

19 is you did remember them at the time, you could have

20 written them down in your statement or notebook but with

21 the passage of time you can't remember them now. Do you

22 accept that?

23 A. (Pause) That's what it sounds like, yes.

24 Q. So what I want an answer from you in respect of is why

25 did you not name them in your statement or your notebook

131

1 entry?

2 A. Because what I think I'm trying to say was that if I had

3 have sat down and had a debriefing with someone who had

4 a whole lot of local knowledge, if I said, "Look -- sort

5 of went through a description of the person, they could

6 have helped me maybe put a name to the face.

7 Q. That's a description and that's a whole other area here,

8 whether you could have added descriptions to people you

9 didn't know. I'm talking about people you do know, and

10 it would simply be a matter of recording their names; no

11 description needed or necessary. The name is missing

12 and it seems from that paragraph that you would have

13 been in a position to give that name in 1997, but

14 didn't?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Sorry, can I just say the reason you seem to give in

17 that paragraph is because you were tired and not having

18 time to debrief. How long does it take to write two

19 words of a person's name?

20 A. You can believe it or not, I had -- know very little

21 names about Portadown.

22 Q. Why did you not write the names of the people who you

23 did know, but -- sorry, a final point to this

24 question -- but took the time to write a graphic

25 description of someone whom you didn't know?

132

1 A. I did what I did.

2 Q. I can see that.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That doesn't really answer counsel's

4 question, you know. If you can't, you had better

5 say so.

6 You haven't really answered counsel's question. If

7 you can't answer, you had better say so?

8 A. I can't answer it.

9 MR GREEN: Can I suggest that you were perhaps being

10 selective in what you were deciding you wanted to put in

11 a statement and your notebook in 1997?

12 A. I don't think I was being selective at that time in the

13 morning.

14 Q. Were you telling the truth?

15 A. Everything I put in that there is the truth.

16 Q. In your statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In 1997?

19 A. I can stand by what I said in that statement.

20 MR GREEN: Yes, thank you.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Berry?

22 Questions by MR BERRY

23 MR BERRY: Whilst you were inside the Land Rover, whilst it

24 was parked at the top of Woodhouse Street, at any time

25 during that period did you hear banging on the driver's

133

1 side of the Land Rover?

2 A. Banging?

3 Q. Yes. Did you hear a lady's voice screaming for help?

4 A. (Witness shakes head)

5 Questions by MR O'CONNOR

6 MR O'CONNOR: Just one or two short matters, Mr Chairman,

7 sir.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

9 MR O'CONNOR: Could you look at your cipher list and look at

10 Sergeant P89?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that the duty sergeant who briefed you going out in

13 the Land Rover that night?

14 A. He was the duty sergeant.

15 Q. Do you remember him putting together the crew and

16 sending you out in the Land Rover? You don't remember

17 that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Had you done Land Rover duties on previous Saturday

20 nights in this area?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was there any information that this was any

23 different a Saturday night from another Saturday night?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And were there other Saturday nights where a Land Rover

134

1 crew would have four officers in it going out to patrol

2 the area?

3 A. To my recollection, four or five.

4 Q. That was normal. Is that right?

5 A. I ...

6 Q. If you don't remember --

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Just finally, you mentioned that when you went back to

9 go off duty, it would be the duty inspector who would

10 let you go off duty. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You told my friend that. Now, if the duty inspector,

13 rather than go back to the station, had gone on to his

14 other duties in Lurgan or Banbridge and wasn't there

15 when you got back, would you wait for him to come back

16 or would you be let off duty by someone else?

17 A. Whoever was standing in.

18 Q. And who would that be in the absence of the duty

19 inspector?

20 A. It would be Sergeant P89.

21 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have to wait to be let off duty?

23 A. No.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mr McComb?

25 Questions by MR McCOMB

135

1 MR McCOMB: Just a very few questions, P40. I represent

2 a number of the people who were ultimately charged with

3 the assault and the murder of Mr Hamill.

4 Just in relation to those names of people who my

5 friend Mr Green was asking you about, could paragraph 80

6 of the transcript of your interview be shown up, please?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the --

8 MR McCOMB: It is the Inquiry interview, sir, yes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 MR McCOMB: I don't think they are page numbered. Sorry, it

11 is page 80. Page 80.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

13 MR McCOMB: If you just look at the very top there. You

14 weren't able to identify anybody else:

15 "Answer: There was other people that I had seen,

16 but just when you're (inaudible) and you maybe pass

17 somebody and I think he was there that night.

18 "Question: But you didn't write those details down?

19 "Answer: No."

20 "Question: You were later asked that day by Bradley,

21 I think, about certain people. No?

22 "Answer: No.

23 "Question: Okay. In your interview on 8 September

24 you made the comment 'Troublemakers, I'll not name

25 them'.

136

1 "Now, I don't want to take that out of context, but

2 were these troublemakers ones that you had seen on the

3 street that night? Or was that a reference to something

4 else?"

5 That goes back to your statement. I won't ask that

6 to be flagged up, but you said:

7 "Troublemakers, I'll not name them."

8 What do you mean by that?

9 A. (Pause) I suppose somebody who has a few drinks and

10 hangs about.

11 Q. Okay. I think further on when you were asked did you

12 know or could you identify any of the other people other

13 than Mr Bridgett and Mr Forbes, although you didn't know

14 him but you became aware of his name by association with

15 Mr Bridgett as the other chap who had been at the Land

16 Rover. Apart from those two, is it correct to say that

17 you had excluded from any of these people whom you might

18 have seen the other people who were actually charged

19 with the offence?

20 A. I was what?

21 Q. You said that you did not see any of the other people

22 who were charged with the offence of murder on the scene

23 that night. Would you take it from me that you accepted

24 that?

25 A. Okay.

137

1 Q. Yes. Now, just going back very briefly, because so much

2 has been covered already, can you remember when

3 Mr Bridgett, Stacey, came and talked to your colleagues

4 and to yourself, did that last for some time, that

5 conversation?

6 A. The conversation with myself was -- he just said hello

7 and that was it.

8 Q. Well, yes, although you did say that he was talking to

9 you all at one stage and that he was talking to him, who

10 I think was probably the driver of the Land Rover. Do

11 you not recall that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Or if, indeed, there was some conversation about work or

14 employment or anything of that nature, you mightn't have

15 heard that on the back seat?

16 A. No.

17 Q. But is it fair to say that around that time something

18 happened, that the driver's door was pulled open?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did that happen around or nearly at the same time as

21 these --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- chaps were talking to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is that your memory of that?

138

1 A. Yes.

2 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.

3 Questions by MR ADAIR

4 MR ADAIR: I've just two or three very short matters that

5 I want to deal with, P40. I will just be a few minutes,

6 can you just bear with me?

7 You were asked a question a few minutes ago about

8 whether you heard somebody banging the side of the Land

9 Rover. There is no reply came up on the transcript, but

10 what's your answer to that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You were also asked, do you remember, the paragraph in

13 your statement where, on the face -- do you remember you

14 were asked by Mr Green -- of that paragraph that we

15 looked at in your statement, you were saying in your

16 Inquiry statement that there were other people whose

17 names you knew at the scene but you hadn't put them in

18 your statement? Do you remember being asked about that

19 a few minutes ago?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm not going to trawl you through it again. Was there

22 anybody else at the scene that you recognised and could

23 name?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you explain why it appears the way it does in

139

1 your Inquiry statement, which I know you didn't draft,

2 but ...?

3 A. Maybe the way I explained -- I didn't explain myself

4 well.

5 Q. If there had been anybody else there that you could have

6 named, would you have named them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Two brief matters I want to just ask you about. You

9 have told us about hearing -- I think the word you have

10 used today -- you have certainly used it before -- the

11 shouting when you were sitting in the back of the Land

12 Rover?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me ask: what sort of shouting was it? Was it the

15 usual Saturday night, was it aggressive, was it violent,

16 was it something out of the ordinary? What was it?

17 A. I suppose if I was to categorise it, it was just a group

18 of people. It wasn't angry, it wasn't -- it wasn't

19 threatening. Just if there had been 50 -- (inaudible)

20 people coming up. It was just like boisterous.

21 Q. Now, the question might be asked then, as we know from

22 your Inquiry statement that you mentioned it to

23 Constable Neill, what was it about the shouting that

24 made you think you should mention it to Constable Neill?

25 A. Just that I had heard something.

140

1 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you is: when you get

2 out of the Land Rover, to summarise what you are saying,

3 as I understand it, you effectively went to the

4 Woodhouse Street junction?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Why did you go there as opposed to where the scuffling

7 was?

8 A. Whenever I disembarked, it was merely at this time this

9 other person came over to me and I had to deal with

10 that. As I say, I took him over to Woodhouse Street and

11 then the second person came up and he had fallen down.

12 I picked him up, and by the time I had got him across --

13 whilst they were there, I went across.

14 Q. And why were you dealing with these people at the

15 junction of Woodhouse Street?

16 A. Because I believed they were from that end of town.

17 Q. Pardon?

18 A. I believed that they were from that end of town.

19 Q. Why were you staying there with those people?

20 A. Because I didn't want them to get involved with the

21 larger group.

22 Q. You didn't want?

23 A. Them to get involved.

24 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

25 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

141

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Just a few small matters arising out of that.

2 Did you have good hearing in 1997?

3 A. As far as I know.

4 Q. Do I understand, in answer to another counsel earlier

5 on, you to say that when the man in the blue shirt said

6 something to the other officers in the Land Rover about

7 his friends coming up from Thomas Street, you didn't

8 hear that yourself; is that right?

9 A. Was that when --

10 Q. Sorry, go on. The man that gave the warning about

11 friends coming up from Thomas Street. You know about

12 that now?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you hear it at the time?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you hear what he said?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you sure about that?

19 A. I'm not.

20 Q. Because can I just take you to some matters which might

21 help you on it? Can we look at page [81148] to start

22 with? This is the statement you made to the Inquiry,

23 and then at paragraph 14 you see about five lines down

24 on the right-hand side:

25 "I recall an older male crossing in front of the

142

1 Land Rover ..."

2 Are you with me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "... and saying that his friends were coming down

5 Thomas Street from St Patrick's Hall."

6 So what you have told the Inquiry in your statement

7 is that you recall him coming across and saying that.

8 Does that help you?

9 A. Sorry.

10 Q. All right. Let's have a look at page [00695].

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we need to look at the next sentence.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry, it is entirely my fault. Let's

13 have a look at page [00695]. Thank you.

14 MR ADAIR: I think perhaps the next sentence should be on

15 the record as well, in fairness.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course:

17 "I cannot remember if I heard this or Reserve

18 Constable Cornett had relayed this to

19 Reserve Constable Atkinson and myself."

20 So --

21 MR ADAIR: I'm not saying it was deliberate at all.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: No, no, no. That's entirely right.

23 So what you are telling us in this statement is that

24 you knew it at the time either because you heard it or

25 because the lady officer told you. Does that help you?

143

1 THE CHAIRMAN: You would have been able to hear one or the

2 other, whichever one of them it was?

3 A. Exactly.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: If we have a look at page [00695], this is

5 the statement you made on 27 April, and in the middle of

6 that, in the centre of that there is the word "Stacey"

7 on the left-hand side, and you say:

8 "A short time later, a man who was approximately 35

9 to 40 years old and wearing a navy shirt and

10 dark-coloured trousers informed Reserve Constable Cornett that

11 his mates were coming from St Pat's Hall towards the town centre."

12 Does that help you about whether you heard --

13 A. Sorry.

14 Q. No? Then if we look at finally on this, page [09361],

15 this is part of the public interview we have looked at

16 before and you will recall this is in 1997 on

17 8 September. And at the bottom of the page, you are

18 first asked there about the person who opens the

19 driver's door and remember what he started shouting, and

20 you say you couldn't make it out. And then you were

21 asked:

22 "Can you remember speaking to anyone before that?"

23 And you say:

24 "Before someone opened the door?

25 "Question: Yes.

144

1 "Answer: Yes, Stacey and his friend.

2 "Question: And prior to that, can you recall anyone

3 talking to the front two, passenger and driver?

4 "Answer: Yes, there was a fellow came round the

5 front of the Land Rover to the side that Stacey was at

6 and he said that his friends was coming down from

7 St Pat's, so he did.

8 "Question: Was Stacey there at that stage?

9 "Answer: Yes.

10 "Question: Right. There are counter-accounts --

11 not counter-accounts -- there is another account of the

12 incident that would suggest that this person walked in

13 front of the Land Rover before Stacey and his friend

14 was?

15 "Answer: Well I can only, I can only give you my point of view."

16 If we go down to the bottom of that page. Roughly

17 in the middle of that passage there is:

18 "If we could move back to when Stacey was at the

19 door?

20 "Answer: Yes.

21 "Question: And the person shouted in?

22 "Answer: His friends is coming down from St Pat's."

23 So you are giving your account there. You are

24 saying he shouted in his friends were coming down from

25 St Pat's. Were the matters fresh in your mind still

145

1 in August 1997?

2 A. Is that not telling me Stacey shouting in? Because he

3 talked to me.

4 Q. Yes. We will come to what Stacey was talking about

5 later on, but the suggestion there is that that's the

6 person warning the Land Rover crew that his friends are

7 coming down from St Pat's. You are not suggesting that

8 Stacey Bridgett had friends coming down from

9 St Patrick's Hall, are you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. It doesn't help you? All right. Move on to the other

12 matter that I want to ask you about then, and that's

13 this: can I just get clear, after Stacey Bridgett and

14 his friend started talking to the lady observer in the

15 Land Rover, was she the only person they spoke to?

16 A. He spoke to me.

17 Q. Yes. If we look at page [09688], these are the notes

18 that were taken down from you by the sergeant on

19 27 April, and just pick up the top quarter of it:

20 "When exactly stopped. Pointing in direction of

21 Halifax."

22 Then what we see in the brackets are your answers:

23 "(At give way lines pointing slightly into

24 Woodhouse Street.)

25 "Position of Land Rover?

146

1 "Answer: (We were talking.)

2 "Question: Who was talking to Stacey? (All

3 talking)."

4 So you were asked there who was talking to Stacey

5 and you say you were all talking.

6 "Question: Why were these youths talking?

7 "Answer: (Friendly.)"

8 Was that an accurate description of what was going

9 on, that you were all having a friendly conversation

10 with these two youths?

11 A. No, it is not very specific. We were talking. Who was

12 talking to Stacey, all talking. (Witness shakes head)

13 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: You said in one of the documents you were

15 shown, "Troublemakers, I'll not name them". You were

16 asked a question about that. I think you said what you

17 meant by troublemakers, but you didn't tell us why you

18 said "I'll not name them". Can you help us about that?

19 Why did you say:

20 "... I'll not name them"?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know why I said that.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, that concludes your

24 evidence.

25 Sir, that concludes the evidence for today. The

147

1 position about anonymity is that there is now a threat

2 assessment that has been handed round to the lawyers,

3 and what I would respectfully propose is that they and

4 we all use tomorrow and Monday to consider the anonymity

5 question and that submissions are made on it on Tuesday.

6 I don't know whether anybody else has submissions to

7 make on that.

8 MR McGRORY: Can I just clarify on what basis the

9 submissions are being made. If I tell you what my

10 understanding is, that it ought to be, perhaps we can

11 get some clarification of that and that is that Mr Adair

12 made an application -- I think it was on 10 March -- for

13 anonymity, which was granted, and screening, with the

14 family excepted, on a temporary basis pending some

15 threat assessment that could be achieved at the earliest

16 opportunity. Then, about a week later, we got a threat

17 assessment which was unclear and in respect of which

18 clarification was sought, and now we have one which

19 seems to be a bit clearer.

20 Whether Mr Adair is satisfied with it or not is

21 another matter, but my understanding of Tuesday is that

22 this would be Mr Adair's opportunity to make his full

23 application for permanent anonymity and screening, which

24 I would oppose, of course. But I would just like to

25 have it clarified that Mr Adair is the applicant and

148

1 anyone else may make such submissions as they choose.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I rather think, Mr Adair, you may be making

3 an application for some, but there may be a further

4 threat assessment you are seeking.

5 MR ADAIR: That's it in a nutshell, sir.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: So we may be able to dispose of some but not

7 all.

8 MR ADAIR: Can I say this, that in respect of the driver of

9 the Land Rover, we have instructions that he is not

10 further seeking any anonymity and is content to come

11 without any further assessment and give evidence both

12 publicly and in the presence of the Hamills, obviously,

13 and the public.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

15 MR ADAIR: So hopefully that will be some progress next

16 week. And I'm hoping that by next week we will have

17 honed down, on instructions, those that we need to take

18 further steps about.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. As I understand the position, the

20 ruling which we made a long time ago now is not one that

21 can be reopened, and so the real issue is whether the

22 recent killings have altered the risk in respect of

23 those who are now seeking anonymity, not here, but when

24 they go back to their own environment.

25 MR ADAIR: That's on the Article 2.

149

1 THE CHAIRMAN: On Article 2, yes. Of course it may have

2 a bearing on a common law application.

3 MR ADAIR: It may, yes.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: And matters which were scouted when we made

5 the original application may be relevant -- I don't say

6 necessarily -- insofar as they throw light on the

7 present risk.

8 MR ADAIR: Yes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Or they may not.

10 MR ADAIR: That's right, sir. Just for your assistance,

11 sir, the only one that I'm aware of at the moment that

12 the common law situation might apply to is

13 Reserve Constable Cornett.

14 As far as I'm aware, any other applications

15 I anticipate that I may have will be Article 2

16 applications.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see.

18 MR ADAIR: I'll liaise with Mr Underwood and the Inquiry

19 team over the weekend and hopefully we will be in

20 a position if not to resolve the issues -- I don't

21 foresee that I will be able to make substantive

22 applications, frankly, on Tuesday, but I'm hoping that

23 we will be in a position to say that we have progressed

24 sufficiently to let us get on with things just to put

25 it --

150

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I think applications or assessment need

2 to be made through the Tribunal. We shall want to know

3 on what particular basis it is said that the applicant

4 asking for an assessment differs from the other cases,

5 the generality of cases, which are covered by the

6 revised assessment.

7 MR ADAIR: I understand.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Because of course, we shall have to look at

9 those and we shall hear submissions about whether they

10 do amount to a factor which justifies our requesting

11 a threat assessment.

12 MR ADAIR: Yes.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: You accept that?

14 MR ADAIR: I accept that entirely. That -- I hope -- I see

15 my instructing solicitor looking at me in horror, but no

16 doubt he will attend to that over the weekend and have

17 the necessary information for us all by Tuesday. I hope

18 to have as much -- obviously, sir, that will take

19 probably a little bit of time. We will make every

20 effort to have as much information by Tuesday for the

21 Panel as we can. But can I assure you that we are

22 trying to do everything we can to ensure we progress

23 according to the schedule, sir.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Then Tuesday at 10.30, and over the weekend I

25 shall try and catch myself on.

151

1 MR McGRORY: Wise up, sir.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I just say that of course applications

3 for anonymity are in play for other officers not

4 represented by Mr Adair, and no doubt they will be

5 canvassed in the same way.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, those appearing will have heard and I

7 haven't seen anyone jumping up to dissent to what I have

8 suggested should be the approach. Thank you.

9 (4.11 pm)

10 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am on Tuesday,

11 31 March 2009)

152

1 I N D E X

2
P40 (sworn) ...................................... 1
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 1
4
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 30
5
Questions by MR MALLON ....................... 82
6
Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 123
7
Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 133
8
Questions by MR O'CONNOR ..................... 134
9
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 135
10
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 139
11
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 141
12

153

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 26th March 2009, day 34