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Hearing: 20th March 2009, day 31

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Friday, 20 March 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 31

1 Friday, 20 March 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. I will call witness Gordon Cooke.

5 MR GORDON WALTER COOKE (sworn)

6 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. You will get questions from me to start with. My name

10 is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the Inquiry. Rather

11 than ask you your names, can I get you to look at your

12 statement at [81674]. Are those your names at the top?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we look through the pages of this quite briefly, I

15 would just like you to scan it as we go and then we can

16 identify whether it is your statement. Is that your

17 statement?

18 A. It is, yes.

19 Q. Is it true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. If I can take you back to the first page,

22 [81674], there are just a few matters I would like to

23 amplify, if I may.

24 In paragraph 2, you tell us in the first sentence

25 your service history, as it were, and then in the second

1 sentence you say you were the driver of a mobile patrol

2 vehicle accompanied by two other officers. And later on

3 you tell us that the call sign was JD80. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if we look at page [03838], please, and the final

7 paragraph of this, we see a recital compiled

8 in June 1997 of what vehicles were on the scene. The

9 first vehicle at the scene, it says, was the livery

10 Mondeo, followed in seconds by the armoured Ford Sierra

11 and then a third vehicle, driven by another constable

12 who is named there, turned up after that. Can you

13 recall now which car you were in?

14 A. I think I was in the second vehicle, the armoured Ford

15 Sierra.

16 Q. Thank you. Do we take it then that was a plain clothes

17 vehicle?

18 A. It was an unmarked vehicle, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. If we go back to your statement at [81674],

20 please, back at paragraph 2, halfway through that you

21 say before going out on patrol you were briefed by the

22 sergeant, and then you go on to say:

23 "I had quite a lot of previous experience policing

24 Portadown and one tended to get general late night

25 assaults and incidents of a sectarian nature where

1 Protestants and Catholics confronted one another in the

2 town centre."

3 I would like to you comment, if you would, on

4 something a witness has told us, which is that on more

5 than one occasion he saw fights taking place in the

6 centre of Portadown when there was the police Land Rover

7 present and the police would not get out of the Land

8 Rover. Have you any experience of such an incident?

9 A. I have never known that to happen, no.

10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 3 of your statement, you refer

11 to the statement you made at [06363]. Can we just have

12 a look at that to confirm? That was the statement you

13 made on 27 April; is that right?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. And you, at a later stage than April 1997, were accused

16 of not gathering evidence, I think, at the scene or

17 sealing the scene off and I want to ask you about your

18 experience of training of scene preservation.

19 If we look at page [72546], is that your personal

20 record print showing the various courses you have

21 attended?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. And if we look at 16.06.1997, there is "Evidence

24 Gathering Initial", is that anything to do with scene

25 preservation?

1 A. No, it is not, it is using a camcorder.

2 Q. Of course that post-dates the events we are talking

3 about. As far as I can see on here -- perhaps you could

4 confirm this -- you were never trained in scene

5 preservation or evidence collection?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Thank you. Can I now get you to look at a model,

8 please? This is in a sense a collection of photographs

9 that has been put together so that we can pan from left

10 to right, taken from one position, which is just outside

11 Eastwoods clothing shop. Perhaps we can pan through

12 360 degrees and you can see what it shows us. This

13 looks down Thomas Street, you may recall. This is

14 Eastwoods itself. And here one is looking up towards

15 the church and West Street. And that's the junction of

16 Woodhouse street there. I want to ask you to describe

17 and, if possible, mark on the screen for us various

18 things that you saw when you arrived.

19 Firstly, can we deal with the Land Rover? We put

20 the Land Rover there for the purposes of seeing whether

21 witnesses think it was there or somewhere else. Don't

22 take it from the fact that it is there that that's

23 a fact. Would you like to say where the Land Rover was?

24 A. My recollection would have been that it was further

25 forward as to where it is now.

1 Q. In front of the Halifax or further down than that?

2 A. In front of the Halifax.

3 Q. Right, thank you. And we know there was a crowd, and

4 your witness statement tells us there was a crowd there

5 when you arrived.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Again, is this scene that's set up on the screen at the

8 moment adequate to show us where the crowd was?

9 A. Yes. As I recollect, the crowd would have been across

10 the road in the area of Instep, completely across the

11 road.

12 Q. Right, thank you. And you have spoken of two men lying

13 on the ground when you arrived. Again, is the scene

14 that we have got on the screen wide enough to show us

15 where those were?

16 A. Yes, this would have been in the area of the bottom

17 right-hand corner of the screen.

18 Q. We can do something which we call a screen shot which

19 gives you control of this to mark where you saw those,

20 please. You have control now. There is a white pen

21 for it.

22 A. As I recollect it, the two persons were somewhere in

23 that area.

24 Q. Thank you. If you can't remember, just tell me, but we

25 know that one of them turned out to be Robert Hamill and

1 he was wearing a black leather jacket. Can you say

2 which of those two was Robert Hamill?

3 A. No, I don't know, no.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Those two places are more or less opposite

6 the mouth of Thomas Street, but just into High Street or

7 Market Street, as it is there. Is that right?

8 A. In that area, yes.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: And can you help us also with where you

10 parked the car you were in?

11 A. It would have been further to the right of the screen.

12 Q. Right. On the Thomas Street side of the road or the

13 Woodhouse Street side of the road?

14 A. On the Thomas Street side.

15 Q. So, again, we can do a screen shot. Perhaps you could

16 just help us with marking. Right, you have got the

17 control again.

18 A. I think we parked in that area.

19 Q. Was there another vehicle there already when you parked,

20 or not?

21 A. There was another police vehicle just in front of where

22 we parked.

23 Q. Right. Thank you very much. If we go back to your

24 witness statement now then, please, at page [81676], at

25 paragraph 9 you say:

1 "It is difficult to describe exactly what the crowd

2 was doing because it was bedlam, but they were shouting,

3 some of them were waving things, some of them were

4 walking along towards the police and some of them were

5 trying to get towards the two injured persons on the

6 ground."

7 We heard this described as a riot. Would that be

8 a description you would use of it?

9 A. It was certainly chaos. They weren't throwing things

10 towards us so it wasn't a riot in that respect, but it

11 was certainly chaotic, a lot of running about and

12 milling about.

13 Q. Aggressively or just in high spirits?

14 A. Aggressively.

15 Q. Was there shouting?

16 A. There was a lot of shouting.

17 Q. Sectarian shouting in particular?

18 A. I can't recall exactly, but a lot of shouting.

19 Q. Okay. Again, just help the Panel to get an impression,

20 and I'm not asking to you identify whether you saw

21 a particular person doing anything in particular. Did

22 you get the impression that people were doing things for

23 which they could have been arrested if you were able to

24 arrest them?

25 A. They were being disorderly.

1 Q. And in respect of the two people on the ground, you have

2 no recall, according to your statement, of anybody

3 attacking the two people on the ground; is that fair?

4 A. That's fair.

5 Q. Or trying to?

6 A. I had an impression the crowd -- members of the crowd

7 were trying to get towards the two injured persons, but

8 the police officers were between them.

9 Q. We have heard from another witness, a Catholic witness,

10 who says that he and police officers pulled people who

11 were kicking one of the men on the ground away from that

12 person. Did you see or take part in any of that?

13 A. No. If that happened, that was before I arrived.

14 Q. Okay. Do I take it from that answer that you are

15 confident that if it had happened while you were there,

16 you would have seen it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. And if we go to paragraph 14 of this

19 statement on page [81677], I want to ask you about

20 Stacey Bridgett who you note there. You say you

21 recognised him, and roughly in the middle of it you

22 describe him and you say then that you noted that his

23 nose was bleeding. We know that his blood got on to

24 Robert Hamill's jeans. You now know, of course, that

25 Robert Hamill was one of the two people lying on the

1 ground?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see Bridgett close enough for his blood to have

4 dripped on that person on the ground?

5 A. No, not while I was there.

6 Q. Again, is that something that -- tell us what degree of

7 confidence you can have about whether that would have

8 happened while you were there?

9 A. During the period I was there, no one -- no member of

10 the crowd got towards the two injured persons before

11 they were taken away by ambulance.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: As I understand the picture you give to us,

13 whatever had happened to the two men on the ground, the

14 police were preventing any repetition of that and

15 keeping people away from them?

16 A. That was our main aim, yes.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: So could you help us with the proximity of

18 people here? You have got men on the ground, you have

19 got the police keeping the crowd from them and you have

20 got the crowd, as you have said, pushing towards the

21 injured men. Was that all happening within a few feet,

22 or what?

23 A. The crowd were about ten or 12 feet from the injured

24 men. The police were within two or three feet of the

25 crowd.

1 Q. Right. So when you describe somebody as at the front of

2 the crowd and pushing, they were really very close to

3 police officers; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In all that, where were you?

6 A. I was two to three feet from the crowd, doing my best to

7 hold them back, push them back.

8 Q. And if we go over to page [80198], paragraph 16, you

9 deal with what you saw of Rory Robinson. And, again, he

10 is at the scene, you say. And about four lines down,

11 you say towards the right-hand side:

12 "I noted that at least on one occasion, possibly

13 more, he tried to push past myself and other police."

14 Are you clear about that?

15 A. Oh, yes.

16 Q. If we move on down on that same page, paragraph 18,

17 there is a name blanked out. You say there:

18 "I also identified ..."

19 And that's xxxxxxxxxx is what you have written in

20 your original statement. You then go on to say:

21 "As I recall on my return from a two-week holiday

22 abroad, Detective Sergeant Bradley asked me to the effect,

23 'These people you have identified, are you sure about

24 their identification?'"

25 You say:

1 "I looked at my statement again at this stage and it

2 suddenly struck me that I'd put the surname xxxxxxxxxx

3 instead of Hobson."

4 You go on to say that you made a statement to that

5 effect. Are you aware that Marc Hobson was subsequently

6 prosecuted for murder and was convicted of affray

7 arising out of these events?

8 A. I am, yes.

9 Q. You didn't give evidence at that trial, did you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know why that is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you clear that the misidentification is simply

14 a misnaming?

15 A. Yes, I knew both xxxxxxxxxx and Hobson. I knew both

16 their faces. I just put the wrong name to the face.

17 Q. All right. And if we go to page [81679], at

18 paragraph 21 you tell us that you saw some other people.

19 There is a man in a grey Umbro sweatshirt, a female with

20 long, dark, curly hair, and you later spoke to three

21 people who you identified as Kenneth Milligan,

22 Lisa Hobson and Noelle Moore. And you go on to say:

23 "I took their details because I thought they were

24 potential witnesses."

25 Was that something that you commonly did if you

1 faced a public order situation, that you would record as

2 best you could the names of anybody who might be

3 a useful witness at the end of it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you trained to do that or was that something innate

6 to you?

7 A. I wasn't particularly trained in it, no.

8 Q. If I go over the page to [81680], and take you to

9 paragraph 26, please, you say in the third sentence:

10 "I understood that orders had been given that no one

11 was to be allowed into the town centre, the area where

12 the injured men had lain on the ground."

13 What made you understand that? Were you told by

14 someone or was this just something you picked up?

15 A. I don't recall being told by anyone. We would normally

16 have opened the town barriers early in the morning, and

17 on this occasion they were left closed. A police

18 vehicle was left at the scene. So it was the impression

19 I got that that was done for a reason.

20 Q. And then over at page [81681], if I take you to

21 paragraph 29, please, you say you spoke to an inspector,

22 whom we are calling [Inspector McCrum]:

23 "... in the communications room with others present

24 and he told us that the duty CID officer had been

25 contacted. CID had been contacted because it was

1 obvious that a fairly serious assault had occurred."

2 This is some time after 3.30, I think?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. And when you say:

5 "... it was obvious that a fairly serious assault

6 had occurred."

7 Do you just mean by that that you had seen people

8 taken away on stretchers or is this because you were

9 told that there had been a report from the hospital, or

10 what?

11 A. I'd been told that -- I think it was the inspector had

12 been in contact with the hospital and it became obvious

13 that his conditions were serious.

14 Q. And you say in the second half of that:

15 "He made it clear ..."

16 That's the inspector:

17 "... that my crew had to remain until the CID

18 officer arrived because we would be required to speak to

19 him and probably make statements to him before we

20 finished duty that morning. I had told the inspector

21 that I recognised some people at the scene and he

22 instructed me to speak to the detective when he arrived.

23 I think Inspector McCrum was making sure as far as he could

24 that everything that could have been done was being

25 done."

1 The impression given from that passage is that the

2 inspector regarded it as the CID's duty to get

3 information out of you but that he was ensuring that the

4 CID would do that by leaving you there and telling you

5 to talk to them. Is that fair?

6 A. Yes, that's fair.

7 Q. Was that the common way of doing things where there was

8 a serious incident that the CID was going to

9 investigate: that a senior officer would ensure that the

10 people on the ground, as it were, would be available to

11 talk to the CID?

12 A. Yes, that was standard procedure.

13 Q. So if and insofar as there was to be a debriefing, that

14 would be done by the CID; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if we go further down on that page, paragraph 32,

17 you say:

18 "Shortly after that, Detective Constable Keys arrived ..."

19 We are calling him [Detective Constable Keys] at the moment:

20 "... although it is possible that he was at the

21 station when I was being spoken to by Inspector McCrum. It

22 must have been between 3.30 and 4 o'clock and he asked

23 me to prepare a statement which was to include my

24 recollections of the scene and the identity and

25 description of anyone I recognised..."

1 Have you ever experienced on any other occasion in

2 your policing career an occasion where you had witnessed

3 an important incident and a detective had wanted your

4 recollections of it, where he had, as it were, teased

5 information out of you by way of a debriefing?

6 A. No, he would see normally just ask for a statement.

7 Q. And whether one calls this a riot or a chaotic situation

8 or disorder, whatever you call it, where you have had

9 such an experience as you had on the night of 27 April,

10 did you ever pool your recollections with other officers

11 so that you got the best of the recollections out of all

12 of you?

13 A. No, I was -- I made my statement as to what my

14 recollections were. I couldn't speak for the other

15 officers.

16 Q. I understand that. I'm asking you whether you had

17 experienced it on other occasions, that you had ever

18 been asked to or volunteered to talk to other officers

19 before you made your notes up so that you could

20 recollect or perhaps somebody could put a name to

21 a face, something like that?

22 A. It could have been done. I don't really recollect any

23 similar situation.

24 Q. But it is not a common practice then?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Thank you. How confident are you that in making your

2 notes and your statement, you did write down everything

3 that you recalled seeing in terms of individuals that

4 you saw?

5 A. Yes, everything I recalled seeing I put in my statement.

6 Q. If we look over to page [81682], in paragraph 33 you

7 tell us that at about 6.30 in the morning, you returned

8 to the scene with the Detective Constable -- That's who

9 we are calling [Detective Constable Keys] -- and you

10 essentially told him what you had seen. And you go on

11 to say in the middle of that:

12 "The street looked like it normally did on a weekend

13 morning. There was the usual dirt, debris, litter and

14 glass."

15 You walked the detective through it.

16 As we understand it then, the position is that the

17 scene wasn't taped off until 7 o'clock or so in

18 the morning, but -- this is your evidence, is it? --

19 that the barriers were kept closed when they would

20 ordinarily have been opened up and a police car stayed

21 at the scene?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Officer, there is just one matter I'm going to ask you

24 that I have asked all officers who were at the scene.

25 Did you do or fail to do anything that night because of

1 any sectarian sympathies you may have had?

2 A. No, certainly not.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. Other people may ask

4 you some more questions.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this? The front

6 of the crowd can move forward because they are pushed

7 from behind or those in the front may be, themselves,

8 wanting to get forward. Now, into which category did

9 what you'd seen fall into?

10 A. The persons at the front of the crowd were trying to get

11 forward, some of them to get towards the injured

12 persons.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Not just being pushed from behind?

14 A. No.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mr Ferguson?

16 Questions by MR FERGUSON

17 MR FERGUSON: You put in a statement all the material

18 factors which you remembered seeing that night. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And having done that, really was there any more which

22 you could have done if there had been a formal

23 debriefing or any other sort of meeting?

24 A. No, there was nothing I could have offered, I don't

25 believe.

1 Q. No. You had provided the authorities with all the

2 information at your disposal?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.

7 Questions by MR McKENNA

8 MR McKENNA: Constable Cooke, I want to ask you one or two

9 questions on behalf of the Hamill family, and they relate

10 to what passed between yourself and Inspector McCrum, if

11 you have your cipher list there. You see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If we could turn to page [81680], please, this is your

14 Inquiry statement, and at paragraph 23 you say that:

15 "Sergeant P89 and Inspector McCrum arrived on foot

16 from Edward Street shortly after the ambulance arrived and

17 I spoke to them and briefed them on the basic facts from

18 the point when I arrived at the scene."

19 Could you recall now what those basics facts were?

20 A. Well, I explained briefly what I had seen, how the crowd

21 were behaving, where the injured persons were, just

22 briefly told them what I had seen.

23 Q. Yes. Earlier in your Inquiry statement and certainly in

24 your statement of 27 April, you say that both males

25 seemed to be unconscious when you arrived. Can you

1 recall that now?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when Inspector McCrum arrived at the scene, did you

4 tell him about the apparent condition of the two males?

5 A. Yes, I believe I did and I think they were still there.

6 I don't think the ambulance had removed them from the

7 scene whenever the inspector had arrived.

8 Q. Again, in your statement of 27 April -- and you don't

9 mention this, I believe, in your Inquiry statement and,

10 in fairness, I think during your interview you weren't

11 asked about it, but certainly in your statement of

12 27 April -- that's at [06363] -- just the bottom corner

13 or the body quarter of the script -- you say:

14 "There was broken glass lying around where the

15 injured persons were lying and around the police Land

16 Rover."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall that broken glass now at this stage?

20 A. Yes, there was some broken glass. Now, it wasn't

21 anything out of the ordinary, it was what was normally

22 lying around the street.

23 Q. But this was in the area, though, where the two injured

24 males had been lying. Is that right?

25 A. There was some in that area, yes.

1 Q. Would that have been apparent to any police officer

2 whose attention had been drawn to that particular area?

3 A. Possibly not because it wasn't anything out of the

4 ordinary; it wasn't an abnormal amount of glass for the

5 street.

6 Q. But you certainly thought it notable and included it in

7 your statement?

8 A. Well, I noted it, yes.

9 Q. Can you recall, was Inspector McCrum's attention drawn

10 to it, the glass, I'm asking?

11 A. I can't remember.

12 Q. You can't recall. Can you recall whether he enquired as

13 to the exact location as to where the injured persons

14 had been lying or where they had been seen lying first?

15 A. As far as I recall, I pointed out to him where they had

16 been first lying.

17 Q. Thank you. If we could go to paragraph 29 then of your

18 Inquiry statement, that's at [81681], and the bottom

19 half of that paragraph -- I think this has been pointed

20 out to you by Mr Underwood already:

21 "He made it clear that my crew had to remain until

22 the CID officer arrived because we would be required to

23 speak to him and probably make statements to him before

24 we finished duty that morning. I had told the inspector

25 that I recognised some people at the scene and he

1 instructed me to speak to the detective when he

2 arrived."

3 Now, were you later made aware, Constable Cooke,

4 that in Inspector McCrum's journal entry for that date

5 he records -- this can be found at [10371]. Mr Chairman,

6 we don't -- or I was unable to find an actual copy of

7 the journal, but it is referred to during interviews on

8 another occasion with this witness.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: So what is the document then we are looking

10 at now?

11 MR McKENNA: The document we are looking at now is the

12 transcript of an interview with this witness during an

13 investigation in 2001, but I don't intend to deal with

14 the investigation itself, Mr Chairman.

15 Now, do you see the fourth question down on that

16 document --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- Constable Cooke? And it is put to Inspector McCrum that:

19 "Your journal entry states:

20 "'Instructed Constable Cooke, in consultation with

21 other section officers who had been at the scene, to

22 draw up a list of those persons who had been positively

23 identified at the scene.'"

24 Now, did Inspector McCrum ask you to do that?

25 A. Not in those terms, I don't recall, no.

1 Q. Can the Panel take it that had you been asked to do it

2 in those terms, you would have done it in those terms?

3 A. Well, everyone identified I covered that in my

4 statement.

5 Q. I quite accept that, but that's not the question I'm

6 asking. You told us that he didn't ask you to do it in

7 those terms. If he had done, if he had asked you to do

8 it in those terms, would you have done it in those

9 terms?

10 A. No, I think I would have put them into my statement just

11 for the CID officer.

12 Q. But you wouldn't have consulted with the other section

13 officers as he says he asked you to do?

14 A. No, anyone I recognised was my business and for my

15 statement, not anyone else.

16 Q. Well, further down on that page you can see -- if we

17 highlight the bottom half -- you will read there the

18 second line down:

19 "Your journal entry reads ..."

20 This is to Inspector McCrum by the interviewer -- sorry,

21 I mistakenly, Mr Chairman, said this was an interview

22 with this witness. It is not; it is an interview with

23 Inspector McCrum. I apologise. So it is put to Inspector

24 McCrum that his journal entry reads:

25 "Directed Constable Cooke ... to go to Craigavon Area

1 Hospital and obtain the clothing of the two injured

2 parties."

3 Now, were you asked or directed to do that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, from your statement on 27 April, it appears that Inspector

6 McCrum did not wait with you and your crew for the arrival

7 of the duty CID officer, whom we understand to be Detective

8 Constable Keys; is that right? Sorry, maybe if we go to your

9 statement it will be of some assistance to you. I'm sorry, it

10 is your Inquiry statement. Again, paragraph 29. That's at

11 [81681]. I have already read it to you, but can we take

12 it from the language used there that he did not await

13 the arrival of Detective Constable Keys?

14 A. No, I think he did. I think he was still in the station

15 whenever the CID officer arrived.

16 Q. I'm not asking whether he was in the station, I'm asking

17 whether he waited with you and your crew as you

18 described them --

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean at the scene?

20 MR McKENNA: No, Mr Chairman, at the briefing room or

21 wherever the conversation with him had taken place in

22 the station. When you had got back to the station and

23 you were waiting for CID to arrive, he issued you with

24 some instructions. Did he wait with you until CID

25 arrived to speak to you?

1 A. No.

2 MR McKENNA: Thank you.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about the procedure?

4 Suppose you were instructed to go to the hospital and

5 pick up clothing. What system, if any, would there be

6 to make sure that you had done that?

7 A. It was a very short, five-minute drive to the hospital.

8 We would have went to the hospital, collected the

9 clothing, bagged it, brought it back, labelled it and

10 went through the normal procedures.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: But suppose you neglected to do that, would

12 there be any check on that or would your neglect go

13 unnoticed? Do you follow?

14 A. No, I think it would have been noticed within a short

15 period of time that the clothes hadn't been collected

16 and a double-check would have been made. Someone would

17 have been tasked to go and collect them.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.

19 Questions by MR GREEN

20 MR GREEN: Constable Cooke, I ask questions on behalf of

21 Marc Hobson. You have described the scene that you

22 arrived into as a chaotic scene, a scene of some

23 bedlam. Isn't that right?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. It is easy to infer from that that there was a lot of

1 confusion?

2 A. There was, yes.

3 Q. Because you, when you arrived, had one very important

4 function to carry out and that was to assist your

5 colleagues who were already in the throes of

6 a potentially developing violent situation. Isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were rapidly, can I suggest, assessing how you would

10 react and how dangerous the situation you were coming

11 into was; isn't that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. And of course you would do your best to assist your

14 colleagues and go to whatever aid you could be to them.

15 Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, was your first action when you arrived to actually

18 approach your colleagues who were trying to contain the

19 crowd?

20 A. Yes, I went straight over to the police officers and

21 assisted them to keep the crowd back.

22 Q. And without naming any names, those would have been by

23 and large the members of the Land Rover crew. Isn't

24 that right?

25 A. The Land Rover crew and the other vehicle that had

1 arrived before us.

2 Q. Yes, but the greater population of the officers would

3 have been from the Land Rover crew. Isn't that right?

4 A. I think about half of them at that stage were from the

5 Land Rover crew.

6 Q. And how many constables were there altogether on the

7 scene when you arrived?

8 A. Seven/eight.

9 Q. And yourself and then your two colleagues made perhaps

10 up to ten police in total; is that right?

11 A. Maybe, yes.

12 Q. Even with those numbers, Constable Cooke, you were hopelessly

13 outnumbered by the Protestant crowd; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And situations like that are dangerous for police

16 officers because you simply don't know what the crowd

17 are likely to do next; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you obviously are trying to assist your colleagues

20 but looking after yourself as well; isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did you feel at that point when you joined your

23 colleagues? How did you feel for your own safety? Did

24 you feel threatened?

25 A. Somewhat threatened, yes.

1 Q. And fearful of how this situation could develop?

2 A. Yes. If the whole crowd had decided to turn on us, we

3 were in trouble.

4 Q. And were you facing the crowd?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were you in a line with your other colleagues?

7 A. It wasn't a nice, static, straight line. I mean, we

8 were moving about as people from the crowd came towards

9 us or went round the side and tried to push through or

10 tried to get towards these persons. We were moving to

11 hold them back and push them back.

12 Q. Yes, the crowd were moving all the time and the police

13 were moving in an effort to contain them. Isn't that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. People were joining the crowd and leaving the crowd; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the opportunity you would have had to observe in

20 great detail anything that was happening would have been

21 somewhat limited in those circumstances; isn't that

22 right?

23 A. Somewhat limited, yes.

24 Q. Yes. And you then were gathering in your head, can

25 I suggest, as much information about what was happening

1 as possible. Isn't that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Because you would know perhaps that this is the sort of

4 situation that you might need to account for later on;

5 isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that's part of your police training; isn't that

8 right?

9 A. Hm-mm.

10 Q. When you are in a situation, public order, you have one

11 mind or one eye on having to account for what you are

12 witnessing at a later stage. Isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you stayed at the scene, I think, until about 3.15?

15 That's when the crowd dispersed, and you were back at

16 the station some time around 3.30. Isn't that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You put your hand to two documents that night: One was

19 your notebook and the other was your statement. Isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which did you do first?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. Most of the documents you have been shown -- and I don't

25 wish to go over them again -- have been other people's

1 recollections, detective constables, inspectors, of

2 encouraging you to remain in order to prepare

3 a statement. Is it likely, therefore, that the first

4 document you did was in fact your statement?

5 A. No, normally I would do a notebook entry first and

6 compile a statement later. But given the fact the CID

7 officer was there looking for a statement, I may have

8 completed the statement first that night, I can't

9 remember.

10 Q. Without committing you to that, Constable Cooke, can we

11 have a look at your statement that you made on 27 April,

12 and that's at page [09225]. Do you see that in front of you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we can go over the page to [09226], we can highlight

15 perhaps the top half of that, please.

16 Now, you mention Stacey Bridgett, Rory Robinson and

17 you describe what Rory Robinson was wearing, and then it

18 is blanked out, but perhaps this would be the

19 opportunity maybe for you to look at your original

20 statement. It is an unredacted statement, which I think

21 the Inquiry have made available for you. Have you got

22 that in front of you?

23 A. I do not have my original statement, no.

24 Q. Well, the part that's marked out -- there is a blank of

25 and then there is --

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like him to have a copy, Mr Green?

2 MR GREEN: Yes, I think he ought to have a copy in front

3 of him.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: I think the reason for the confusion is that

5 my friend is working from a different set of numbers.

6 The pagination on the document which I was using to take

7 this witness through starts at [06363].

8 A. Yes, indeed, [06364] would be it.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have that document in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR GREEN: That seems to have the same redactions, but I

12 think he ought to really have the original statement in

13 front of him because that contains all of the

14 information I'm going to ask him about.

15 I think for everyone else page [00708] might be

16 a better ... [00709], please. That's redacted as well.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I have been shown a redacted copy in which

18 one of the redactions which may be of interest to you

19 is -- how should I say, greyed out rather than blacked

20 out.

21 MR GREEN: There are so many copies of these statements --

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like the witness to have a --

23 MR GREEN: There is an agreed formula for the witness to

24 have --

25 MR UNDERWOOD: He does have the agreed one.

1 MR GREEN: Constable Cooke, you have an agreed document that

2 no one else has because it contains the unredacted

3 segment of that statement that I'm referring to and it

4 refers to xxxxxxxxxx. Isn't that right? I don't want

5 you to read out any of the detail, but it gives an

6 address. Isn't that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'll ask you about that in a moment, but it gives

9 a description which is up on the screen there:

10 "xxxxxxxxxx of [an address in Portadown] was

11 wearing a black leather jacket and blue denim trousers."

12 In that statement, which you think you might have

13 been making the first record of your memory, does not

14 contain a description of xxxxxxxxxx. Isn't that right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. I think you have told us that when you were making your

17 statement, you did so away from everyone else. Isn't

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in fact, if we look at Inspector K's journal of what

21 he asked you to do at page [11133], the bottom third of

22 that, please:

23 "Const Cooke states that all the section members who

24 were at the scene were asked to make statements and he

25 went to the medical room in the police station where he sat

1 alone, gathered his thoughts and prepared a written

2 statement."

3 Then you hand that had to a detective constable. Do

4 you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And does that refresh your memory that in fact when you

7 came to make your statement, you did so in a quiet room

8 where you had plenty of time to gather your thoughts,

9 think and put down what you had to say about the matter?

10 A. Yes, I was on my own when I made that statement there.

11 Q. And do you think that was the same situation when you

12 came to make your notebook entry?

13 A. It probably was, yes.

14 Q. Now, in that statement, Constable Cooke, you record

15 xxxxxxxxxx as being the person who you saw. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, when you left the scene and things had calmed down,

18 is it a situation that you were going over in your head,

19 what you had seen, because you would know very shortly

20 you might be required to make your notebook entry of

21 that? Did you reflect on what you had seen in the time

22 that you spent between leaving the scene and actually

23 commencing the writing of that statement?

24 A. I really can't remember.

25 Q. But when you came to make the statement, you relived,

1 can I suggest, the events that you had witnessed and

2 chronologically, as far as possible, you recorded what

3 you had seen. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when it came to the part dealing with the person who

6 you say is xxxxxxxxxx, you, without hesitation, put

7 down "xxxxxxxxxx". Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you came to make your notebook entry, whichever

10 was first, you did the same thing; isn't that right?

11 A. Well, I probably wrote one off the other. Whichever one

12 I wrote first, I put a lot of thought into it and then

13 more or less copied the same into my notebook entry.

14 Q. I'll ask you about that in a moment, but for the

15 present, Constable Cooke, you seem to have made that

16 mistake twice. Isn't that right?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: He is just explaining why. He simply copied

18 from one document when he wrote up the other, and you

19 brushed that aside.

20 MR GREEN: I don't, but whatever and however, Constable Cooke,

21 you came to record those two pieces of information, you

22 wrote "xxxxxxxxxx" in the first document and repeated that

23 in the second. Isn't that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You say because you were copying merely off one

1 document. When you were doing that, and assuming that's

2 what you did, didn't that give you an opportunity to

3 reflect on what you were putting down?

4 A. After all that had happened, I probably didn't spend

5 a lot of time putting much thought into the second

6 written document.

7 Q. Well, accepting that for the moment to be right, you

8 revisited the scene; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. With Detective Constable Keys?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that's dealt with at paragraph 33 of your statement

13 to the Inquiry. Could we put that up at page [81682],

14 please:

15 "At about 6.30 that morning, I returned to the scene

16 with the DC Keys. I cannot recall if he

17 asked any of my colleagues ... to accompany him. I did not

18 make an entry in my notebook as to what we did at the

19 scene, but I remember that I pointed out to DC Keys the

20 position of the injured men, the position of the crowd,

21 the position of the ambulance. I outlined briefly

22 everything I saw where I saw it happened."

23 Now, did you outline to him then in that precis of

24 what you had seen, the identities of people that you had

25 seen doing various things?

1 A. I would have told him I recognised a few people. I

2 can't remember if at that stage I named them or

3 described them.

4 Q. Because that would have been a third opportunity for you

5 to reflect on the accuracy of the person who you named

6 as xxxxxxxxxx. Isn't that right?

7 A. I had associated a name with that face I seen and

8 throughout these documents, et cetera, I kept

9 associating the same face with the same name, albeit

10 wrongly.

11 Q. It was just the name that you were associating with the

12 face and that's the only thing you got wrong. Isn't

13 that right?

14 A. Well, I knew his face and I put the wrong name to the

15 face.

16 Q. It is a bit more than that, Constable Cooke, isn't it?

17 Because if you look at that original document in front

18 of you, you see it is xxxxxxxxxx of -- and that's an

19 address there. Isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I don't want you to say what that address is, but that's

22 xxxxxxxxxx's address, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It is not the address of Marc Hobson, is it?

25 A. No, it is not.

1 Q. You know that as a fact because he lives in a totally

2 different area of Portadown?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you recorded in your statement and your notebook,

5 "xxxxxxxxxx of such and such an address", that was not

6 just the name but the address that you were ascribing

7 wrongly. Isn't that right? Two mistakes?

8 A. When I recognised him at the scene, I associated a wrong

9 name and therefore address to that person, yes.

10 Q. Can I suggest to you that what you were doing when you

11 were putting that name, xxxxxxxxxx, is that you were

12 doing the best you could, recalling the identity of the

13 person you saw and on those two occasions recorded as

14 you could remember the identity of the person, and it

15 was xxxxxxxxxx and not Marc Hobson?

16 A. No, it was Marc Hobson I saw at the scene, but I put

17 a wrong name to him at the time.

18 Q. How often in your career, Constable Cooke, have you made

19 that sort of mistake?

20 Do you accept that it is quite an unusual mistake to

21 make, to get the details so wrong of someone?

22 A. It happens.

23 Q. Not just the name, but the address of the person, and

24 put into a record on two occasions?

25 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you have established yet

1 whether it was an address he remembered or whether it

2 was an address he got in some way, or the name of

3 xxxxxxxxxx. Do you see? You haven't established that.

4 You are just assuming that that in his mind was not only

5 the name but the address.

6 MR GREEN: Yes. When you thought, upon writing your

7 statement and your notebook entry, xxxxxxxxxx, how did

8 the address come into your mind as the one that you have

9 put down on your statement?

10 A. I associate that address with the name xxxxxxxxxx

11 because it is a quite an easy address to remember

12 because of the figures in it. So any time I think of

13 xxxxxxxxxx I associate that address with him. So if

14 I'm mistakenly identifying someone was xxxxxxxxxx, I

15 would associate that address with that identity.

16 Q. Okay. Can I ask you then the circumstances of the

17 correction of that mistake? You didn't realise your

18 mistake, did you?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. And despite the need to be accurate in your notebook

21 entry, it didn't occur to you in the weeks afterwards

22 that you had in fact made a mistake. Isn't that right?

23 A. A short time after this incident I went away on my

24 holidays abroad.

25 Q. You were away for two weeks; isn't that right?

1 A. I was away for two weeks, yes. And during that time I

2 didn't think of this.

3 Q. You were putting all matters of work behind you until

4 you came back. When you came back, Constable Cooke, how

5 long were you back before you were approached by someone?

6 A. I think it was the first day back I was spoken to by

7 a detective.

8 Q. Detective sergeant; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can I ask to you look at paragraph 18, then, of your

11 statement to the Inquiry, page [81678]. That detective

12 sergeant, paragraph 18 -- highlighted, please -- he asks

13 you in the third line:

14 "These people you have identified, are you sure

15 about their identification?"

16 I will ask the detective sergeant why it is he came

17 to ask that question, but is that an accurate

18 recollection of what he in fact asked you to do?

19 A. It is probably not the exact words, but he asked me was

20 I sure -- he asked me to look down through my statement,

21 the people I had identified and was I sure about each of

22 them.

23 Q. Was he asking you about each of the persons or was he in

24 particular just concerned about the xxxxxxxxxx

25 identification?

1 A. No, he didn't ask me about one in particular. He asked

2 me to look at each of them and was I sure about them.

3 Q. You have a clear recollection that it was all of the

4 identifications and not just any one in particular?

5 A. As far as I remember it was a general enquiry. He asked

6 me to look at those and was I sure about those.

7 Q. Are you saying that it was immediately, upon being asked

8 that question, that it occurred to you in a flash that

9 you had got it wrong?

10 A. As far as I remember, I took a moment to read over my

11 statement, look at the names and think about them and

12 I realised the mistake I had made and I told him.

13 Q. He didn't suggest anything to you that might have made

14 you think it was Mr Hobson. Did he put the name into

15 your head at all at any time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Without his intervention in coming to you and asking you

18 to reflect, you would never have corrected that; isn't

19 that right?

20 A. No, I might never have realised.

21 Q. You might never have corrected it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we look at your description in that paragraph 18,

24 halfway down that paragraph? You make the statement of

25 correction on 26 May:

1 "I had simply put the wrong name to his face. He is

2 about five foot five or six and of medium to slender

3 build."

4 This is Hobson you are talking about; isn't that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes. There is no point talking about xxxxxxxxxx any more.

8 Isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You are talking about Mr Hobson:

11 "He had very short hair at the time, which was

12 a dark blond colour and he was clean shaven."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that an accurate description of Marc Hobson in 1997?

16 A. As far as I remember, yes. He is about that height. I

17 would say he is probably more medium than slender build.

18 Q. Well, why did you put medium to slender build? You see

19 in his QPF --

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want an answer to that?

21 MR GREEN: Sorry, yes. Why did you put that medium to

22 slender build if in fact you are meaning more medium

23 build?

24 A. I could have said more medium than slender. But it just

25 seemed the best way to describe him, medium slender.

1 Q. Are you wishing to correct that or are you happy with

2 medium to slender?

3 A. I'm giving you my recollection now.

4 Q. What is it?

5 A. That he was about that height. He was more medium than

6 slender and he had short hair.

7 Q. Now, page [08144] is a detective constable's QPF for

8 Marc Hobson and that, I think, is dated on 9 May 1997.

9 Do you see Q9 there:

10 "The person's visible description."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "Five foot eight, short brown hair, sideboards,

14 moustache, goat beard, 14 stone, well built, gold

15 earrings in the left ear ... freckles on face, high

16 forehead."

17 But he describes him as 14 stone and well built.

18 That's hardly medium to slender, is it? This is

19 a description given within a week or two of the actual

20 events that you have also attempted to give

21 a description about. Do you accept that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Timothy Jameson, who we have heard from, in his

24 statement to the Inquiry, page [00268], which is

25 a statement at around the same time -- can we highlight

1 the top half of that, please?

2 [00267], sorry, I have given the wrong number:

3 "This fellow I know to see. He lives in ... and is

4 called Marc ..."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "He is also called Muck. I know this fellow to see

8 about town. Marc has very short, brown hair, goatee

9 beard and is overweight."

10 Does that accord with a description that you have

11 given of that person as medium to slender or slender to

12 medium build, five foot six, short hair, dark blond

13 hair, clean shaven?

14 A. No, I have said he was slender to medium and they have

15 said he was overweight. So, no, it doesn't accord.

16 Q. What about the goatee beard?

17 A. I have just described him as I recalled.

18 Q. You don't recall the person who you were identifying as

19 having a goatee beard, do you?

20 A. Not at that time, no.

21 Q. No. And you are going back now -- I know it is

22 difficult -- 12 years to the person who you saw in the

23 crowd and you don't recall him as having a goatee beard.

24 Isn't that right?

25 A. Not at that time, I didn't recall that.

1 Q. Are you sure about that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, if Marc Hobson had a goatee beard, can it be the

4 same person?

5 A. It could be, but I have got part of the description

6 wrong.

7 Q. In fairness to you, Constable Cooke -- I certainly don't

8 want to trick you -- if you look at your notebook entry,

9 you do have a record of a person who you saw as having a

10 goatee beard, but I'm just trying to explore why it is,

11 when you are thinking now back, you put the person as

12 not having a goatee beard?

13 A. I can't remember why.

14 Q. Would you agree that identification in a public order

15 situation is very difficult for anyone, police officer

16 or civilian?

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. It is very difficult?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And this was a difficult situation; isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [06719]?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us what this document is?

24 MR GREEN: Yes, indeed, sir. This is the defendant, as he

25 was, in Marc Hobson's interview with

1 a detective constable. In fact it is the same

2 detective constable, sir, who wrote out the QPF.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

4 MR GREEN: We will take it up from his first answer to

5 questions. The first question is:

6 "Would you describe yourself, and by that I mean

7 weight, height, features and particularly the hair

8 features.

9 Answer: "Five foot eight, 14 stone, short brown

10 hair."

11 Question: "Very short?"

12 Answer: "Aye, very short."

13 Question: "Long sideburns but neatly trimmed to

14 match the hairstyle?"

15 Answer: "Aye."

16 Question: "And would you tell me about your beard,

17 please, what would it be described as?"

18 Answer: "What?"

19 Question: "Would that be described as a goatee

20 beard."

21 Answer: "Aye, goatee beard."

22 Question [6720]: "How long have you had that?"

23 Answer: "Years."

24 Question: "Years?"

25 Answer: "Aye."

1 Question: "It's always been like that. Would you

2 say you were like myself, fair build, overweight?"

3 Answer: "Aye."

4 Question: "In excess, as the man says?"

5 Answer: "Aye."

6 Whatever mistake you might have made about the

7 goatee beard, really there can be no doubting the build

8 of man as being overweight or slender to medium build,

9 can there?

10 A. I have just described him as I recalled.

11 Q. You, as we know, were not called to give evidence in the

12 trial of Marc Hobson; isn't that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 MR GREEN: Were you told that that was because you were an

15 unreliable witness of identification?

16 A. No, I wasn't told that.

17 Questions by MR MALLON

18 MR MALLON: I represent Reserve Constable Atkinson. My name

19 is Mallon. Do you know who Reserve Constable Atkinson is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you arrived in the armoured car, the Ford, do you

22 remember where you were sitting?

23 A. In the car?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I was the driver.

1 Q. You were the driver?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And as you were sitting in the driver's side, when you

4 come up, there was another vehicle there. Isn't that

5 correct? And I think you parked behind it. Is that

6 right?

7 A. As far as I recall, yes.

8 Q. And then you got out of the driver's side?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And there were two other officers with you?

11 A. There were.

12 Q. And when you got out, did you look at the Land Rover to

13 see if there were any police officers in it?

14 A. Not specifically, no.

15 Q. No. Did you notice any police officers around it?

16 A. There were other police officers there, yes.

17 Q. Yes. Now, when you have three people in a vehicle such

18 as yours, and at that time, did one of them have what we

19 would call a rifle or a long arm, some sort of machine

20 gun, semi-automatic rifle?

21 A. At times one of the patrols would carry a long arm.

22 Q. And that would have been normal practice?

23 A. Generally, yes.

24 Q. And that was to provide cover in the event of an IRA gun

25 attack?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So everybody that you can recall at that time had that

3 threat hanging over them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you went into a public order situation like that,

6 did you know whether it differed, if it was

7 a spontaneous melee, a mayhem, or an organised riot?

8 A. No, initially you wouldn't. It may become obvious

9 later, but certainly you wouldn't know.

10 Q. Right. When it was an organised riot, was it much more

11 vicious and was there something much more threatening

12 about it?

13 A. I would imagine so, yes.

14 Q. Yes. Have you ever been in such an organised riot?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Petrol bombs, gunmen, everything of that nature?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you went into something like that, were you

19 equipped with body armour, face masks, shields, greaves,

20 every form of protection?

21 A. On this occasion?

22 Q. No, not on this occasion. When you were going into what

23 you considered would probably be a hard riot?

24 A. Yes, I was provided with that.

25 Q. You were also trained to deal with that, because a riot

1 can encompass a lot of things. It can be the severe

2 hard riot that I'm asking to you describe and it can be

3 something towards the other end of it that you have

4 described not as a riot, more of a mayhem, melee.

5 I just want to bring out the difference. Also when you

6 have someone that has got a long arm, that is a long

7 rifle, something that is secured by a sling, that person

8 is not allowed to go into the crowd. Isn't that right?

9 A. Not with the long arm, no.

10 Q. Because simply two people can take it and one man will

11 not hold it against him, and that weapon can be taken

12 off and turned against him. So he always has to stay in

13 a position to give cover and to protect the way?

14 A. He would either do that or lock the weapon in the car.

15 Q. And that would have been the same in the Land Rover,

16 wouldn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So someone would have had a long arm, could not rush

19 straight into a crowd, would have to lock the Land Rover

20 and the long arm in it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see whether the Land Rover was locked or not

23 when you went to it?

24 A. I didn't.

25 Q. Also, in a riot or a mayhem situation such as this, it

1 is necessary to protect the Land Rover because it is

2 a safe base from which -- if you are overwhelmed, you

3 can get in it, at the very least, and lock the doors and

4 you are very difficult to hurt or attack in that.

5 To leave that place of safety and to leave that Land

6 Rover, is there not always an officer delegated to make

7 sure that the Land Rover is kept accessible and kept

8 safe?

9 A. Someone always stays with the Land Rover.

10 Q. Yes. So if --

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, when you say "stays with", does

12 that mean in or can it be outside or close to it?

13 A. Generally, in my experience, someone stays in the Land

14 Rover.

15 MR MALLON: So if you have four officers in a Land Rover

16 arriving at a potential fight, riot, melee, whatever it

17 is, or being there and one developing around them, the

18 initial manpower is one long arm, one in charge of the

19 vehicle and two people to go out to deal with the

20 situation?

21 A. Normally the driver would stay with the vehicle and

22 would look after any long arms.

23 Q. Yes. But in this case the person who had the long arm

24 was not initially involved, according to Reserve

25 Constable Atkinson, in going straight into the crowd. Two

1 officers from that Land Rover, he says, faced that crowd

2 initially; eventually a third officer and eventually a fourth

3 officer, but initially two officers faced that crowd. Would

4 you agree that that takes an immense amount of courage?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Immense?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you speaking of that as the practice or

8 what you saw?

9 A. I'm saying if two officers had initially faced that

10 crowd of 30 to 40 people, then that was brave, yes.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the officer is speaking

12 hypothetically, isn't he, on an assumption he is making?

13 What we are wanting to know from him is what he actually

14 saw. I'm sure questions might help towards that.

15 MR MALLON: I will deal with that, but this is an officer

16 who has also been involved in riots and I would like to

17 get his background to help to assist the Tribunal.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: We do want to know -- forgive me,

19 Mr Mallon -- whether the officer is telling us about

20 practice, when usually happens, or what he saw on the

21 night. At the moment the way the questions are being

22 put, his answers about that aren't clear.

23 MR MALLON: Indeed. In relation to your own personal

24 experience, have you ever seen two officers face down

25 a crowd of 40?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever see three officers face down a crowd of 40?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So if that happened, that would be both abnormal and,

5 you have said, brave?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, on this particular evening, you have described

8 a situation where you joined a line of officers. Some

9 measure of control existed at the time that you joined

10 it; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes, the officers were forming something of a line

12 between --

13 Q. Yes, some measure?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The crowd itself seems to have left a gap, according to

16 you, of about two feet -- two to three feet -- between

17 itself and the line of officers?

18 A. Yes, at times we were that close to the crowd.

19 Q. Yes. You see, the officer I represent was struggling to

20 maintain the use and control and the hold on of his

21 baton because he was surrounded and being attacked. Did

22 you see that?

23 A. No, I think that happened before we arrived.

24 Q. So whatever influence the police had before you arrived,

25 it had an influence of calming the crowd, from physical

1 attacks gradually pushing them back?

2 A. If that happened, as you describe it before we arrived,

3 yes, it wasn't --

4 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a matter of inference for us to draw.

5 MR MALLON: I hope you will.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm merely pointing out it is not for the

7 officer to draw inferences, it is for us. Let's go back

8 to what is properly evidence.

9 MR MALLON: Indeed. Being direct about this, officer, was

10 there a riot or even an out-of-control melee when you

11 arrived?

12 A. Oh, yes, it was chaotic.

13 Q. Yes. Now, was any officer being assaulted at that

14 time --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- when you arrived?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you see any officer being assaulted?

19 A. No.

20 Q. If it had been a hard riot situation, would you have

21 noticed the type of assault that would normally have

22 taken place? In a hard riot situation, would you ever

23 have expected that police would be that close and not

24 being assaulted?

25 A. No, if you were that close in a hard riot, you would be

1 taking strikes on your shields, et cetera.

2 Q. Yes. Now, when you were making your way to this -- you

3 had been told that there was an urgent situation and

4 that you were wanted very quickly in the centre of

5 Portadown, when you were in the car?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You went up Edward Street and passed the station?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you consider stopping and getting riot gear or

10 a riot gun, or anything of that nature?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you ordered to stop or did you receive any

13 direction from senior officers as to what you could

14 expect and what you should pick up on the way past?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Nothing? Now, you have described the riot gear that you

17 would normally have in this car. You didn't have any of

18 that. What did you have for your own protection?

19 A. I had a police truncheon and my ballistic body armour.

20 Q. That is for protection against weapons fired, bullets

21 basically?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you even draw your baton when you went in to form

24 the line with the officers?

25 A. I did, yes.

1 Q. And when you had your baton drawn, at what angle did you

2 carry it? Did you carry it low or did you carry it

3 high?

4 A. At times I raised it above my head, whenever I wanted to

5 move people back. At other times I carried it by my

6 side.

7 Q. Can I take it that you didn't have to use it to strike

8 anyone, that the people moved back as they were pushed?

9 A. I didn't need to strike anyone, no.

10 Q. Now, you said that when you got out of the Ford, the

11 armoured Ford car, you went into the line?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you also saw two bodies on the road. You indicated

14 that you went back, and did you think you made your

15 statement first and then filled out your notebook?

16 A. Well, I can't remember.

17 Q. I mean, it is immaterial. I wanted to see if

18 I understood that. It is not a material matter to me.

19 All I wanted to know is did you write your statement --

20 do you think you wrote your statement or do you think

21 you wrote your notebook? I don't care which. You did

22 one before the other?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And there seems to be more detail in your statement and

25 you have indicated that you were under pressure to

1 produce that from a detective, so you probably did that

2 first. I understand that to be your evidence. I'm not

3 taking any point on it. I just want to try and put that

4 into the scene.

5 When you made your statement, you were aware that it

6 was going to be a document which was going to be used

7 and could be used in evidence and, therefore, you made

8 it as accurate and as complete as possible?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, my learned friend has indicated an area of mistake

11 and you have identified the mistake and you have dealt

12 with it as far as you know and as far as you can. There

13 is, however, a matter I would like to draw your

14 attention to in your statement, and in my documents

15 that's page [00708]. If you look at the bottom of that,

16 it leads you into a sentence that takes you across the

17 page:

18 "The two males lying on the road seemed to be

19 unconscious and both had blood around their faces."

20 Is that something that you can remember clearly?

21 I know you have put it in your statement, you made your

22 statement that night, but is it something that you would

23 have remembered clearly when you put it in that

24 statement?

25 A. No, I don't remember it clearly now.

1 Q. But you must have remembered something about blood to

2 put it on both their faces on that night?

3 A. Yes, must have seen what appeared to be blood on their

4 faces at the time, but I really don't recall it now.

5 Q. You see, when you made that statement, it seemed to be

6 accurate and firm, and then when you come to your

7 interview you seem to have abandoned it quite easily.

8 Can you explain why --

9 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean, the interview for the Inquiry?

10 MR MALLON: Yes, the interview for the Inquiry. It is at

11 page ...

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have the paragraph number? We may be

13 able to help.

14 MR MALLON: I had it marked, but ... if I may, I will come

15 back to that just in a moment.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think I see the time. Can we have a break.

17 We will break off now until ten past 12.

18 (11.58 am)

19 (Short break)

20 (12.15 pm)

21 MR MALLON: Mr Chairman, if I can direct you to page [81676]

22 and the paragraph is paragraph 10.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

24 MR MALLON: Could the witnesses be given time to look at

25 that paragraph.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

2 MR MALLON: I would just like you to look through it,

3 please. (Pause)

4 That's how you dealt with it in your statement. You

5 seem to have relinquished the idea of blood on their

6 face to a degree, and I'm asking you now, having looked

7 at both your original statement made on the night of the

8 incident and in your statement to the Inquiry, whether

9 you are quite happy now that there ever was blood on

10 their faces?

11 A. If that's what I put in my first statement, I must have

12 been happy that that was my recollection then. As

13 I say, I can't recall that detail now.

14 Q. I have to suggest to you that you were mistaken in

15 relation to Mr Hamill, that someone who was much closer,

16 who gave him a thorough examination, while putting him

17 in the ambulance and finding no blood on the front of

18 his face.

19 I do appreciate, as my learned friend said, it is

20 very difficult to have a clear recollection and you can

21 be misinformed and you can make a mistake. I have no

22 difficulty with that.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Please don't make speeches to the witness.

24 Ask a question, and if you have a question try and make

25 it short and crisp so the witness can deal with it.

1 Now, please, let's get on.

2 MR MALLON: Yes, I will try and bear that in mind.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: You will bear it in mind. Yes?

4 MR MALLON: In relation to the crowd that you moved into,

5 you moved into a police line and we have heard evidence

6 that the police were pushing up towards the church and

7 the crowd that was gathering round the junction. Do you

8 remember two specific or two delineated or two different

9 masses of people?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You don't? Now, as you were going up and the crowd was

12 advancing in front of you, did you have to lay hands on

13 anyone?

14 A. This crowd that were --

15 Q. Yes, in front of you.

16 A. A short time after we arrived, yes, I had to push

17 several persons back.

18 Q. And that was simply pushing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did anyone push back into you or through you, or was

21 your line of officers strong enough with enough

22 authority to push them up the road?

23 A. No, we didn't get them up the road for some time.

24 A number of them had to be pushed back more than once.

25 Q. Now, even at that time, when there were as many as ten

1 officers and some of them would have been in the line

2 beside you, can you give us any idea of the numbers of

3 police that you were part of a line of?

4 A. Six or eight of us.

5 Q. Six or eight?

6 A. As I recall, that's all the officers that were there

7 initially when I arrived.

8 Q. Is that a memory or is that because you think that's all

9 the officers that were there?

10 A. Yes, that's all the officers that were there when

11 I arrived.

12 Q. You see, other officers may have been looking after

13 different areas --

14 A. No, that's the only officers that were there at that

15 time.

16 Q. Six or eight?

17 A. Six or eight, yes.

18 Q. Were you able to touch the officer on either side of

19 you?

20 A. No, it wasn't a straight line like that. I mean, I was

21 constantly moving, we were all constantly moving.

22 Q. The impression given was that the police moved up in

23 a line, the crowd came down in a line, but in fact you

24 couldn't touch the police officer on either side of you.

25 So somebody could have easily walked between you?

1 A. People did try to go between us, yes.

2 Q. Then you closed over or an officer ran and grabbed them

3 and pushed them back?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So it doesn't appear to have been of a determined

6 nature, fighting their way through to get at these

7 people. In fact, the crowd was basically malleable and

8 could be pushed upwards. The odd hothead ran through

9 the crowd, the police got him and pushed him back. Is

10 that what you can remember?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So that's the description of it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It was grabbing people and pushing them back?

15 A. If that crowd had been determined to get through, they

16 would have got through.

17 Q. Yes. And if they had been determined to get through the

18 police to kick the people on the ground, it could have

19 been done, even at that time? This is before the MSU

20 arrived.

21 A. It could have been done.

22 Q. Yes. Another crowd of police then, a mobile support

23 unit?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember them coming?

1 A. I do.

2 Q. And how many were in that, roughly?

3 A. A dozen or something.

4 Q. Yes. And that really firmed the line up, didn't it?

5 A. It did.

6 Q. After that, you could think about things other than the

7 crowd? You could start clearing people away, protecting

8 them, giving first aid. But up until that time, there

9 weren't really enough police to control the crowd?

10 A. No, there weren't.

11 Q. And then when this MSU arrived, did they come with the

12 heavy gear, with their self-protection, the body armour

13 and all of that?

14 A. I can't remember how much protection they had.

15 Q. But certainly the number of bodies across the road

16 firmed up the line?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And moved the people up the town then?

19 A. It was a slow move, but with their help the crowd were

20 eventually moved up the town.

21 Q. And again, it never reached the stage, did it, where the

22 police were battling people to get them to move? It was

23 always very gently, gently, up the road, very gently.

24 But inexorably, you just pushed them up?

25 A. Yes, we gradually got them up with the help of the MSU.

1 Q. Yes. And that created a sterile area behind you where

2 there were no people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then when people were taken through that area, they

5 would have been escorted by police. Is that how it

6 would have happened?

7 A. Sorry, what people?

8 Q. If someone wanted to go down and they needed to get

9 down, maybe a police officer would have walked them

10 down?

11 A. No, I think they were all moved up --

12 Q. They were all moved up.

13 A. -- and disappeared up to the far end of town.

14 Q. You seemed to have been the one who was approached to

15 deal with the senior officer, or was that just

16 accidental; did it just happen?

17 A. Yes, I think it was more accidental than anything.

18 Q. Did you know, or were you ever made aware, of how the

19 incident started?

20 A. Not really, no.

21 Q. So you just came into it after it was over and after the

22 first phase of it was over and then formed part of the

23 line?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, when you saw the officers when you arrived, they

1 were small in number and against a big crowd, weren't

2 they?

3 THE CHAIRMAN: He has said that more than once.

4 MR MALLON: Indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Then don't repeat it.

6 MR MALLON: Thank you.

7 When you saw them doing that, was there anything

8 else that you think they could have done to control that

9 crowd or to make the situation better?

10 A. No, not with the number of officers we had there. We

11 couldn't do anything more.

12 Q. Nothing at all?

13 A. No.

14 MR MALLON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Adair?

16 Questions by MR ADAIR

17 MR ADAIR: There are just a couple of matters I want to deal

18 with. You have still got paragraph 10 up on your

19 screen?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. We see that in the third line, there were already two

22 police officers there who appeared to be giving first

23 aid to them. That's the two persons on the ground.

24 A. It is, yes.

25 Q. Of the two officers, can you say were they both male or

1 was there a male and female, or can't you say?

2 A. One of them was a male because I remember who it was. I

3 can't recall who the second officer with the injured

4 person was.

5 Q. I don't think there is much disagreement about this, but

6 if you have got your cipher list in front of you, was it

7 Reserve Constable Silcock that you recognised?

8 A. It was.

9 Q. Now, at paragraph 26 in your Inquiry statement, which is

10 [81680], you see that you say just at the top:

11 "There was one police car still at the scene when we

12 left and there was permanent police staff on duty at the

13 sangar."

14 Who was in the police car that remained at the scene

15 when you left; do you know?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Because you go on to say at paragraph 33 at

18 page [81682] -- if you could highlight paragraph 33 --

19 this is where you describe going back with the

20 detective constable to the scene at about 6.30 that

21 morning, and about four or five lines down you say:

22 "The barriers were still closed and the police

23 vehicle was still there"?

24 A. Yes, there was still a parked police vehicle there.

25 Q. I'm only speaking for myself, but I can't find what

1 police vehicle that possibly would have been. Was it

2 the same vehicle that was there when you left or was it

3 a different police vehicle, or ...?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Well, whereabouts was the police vehicle first of all

6 when you left the scene? Where was it parked?

7 A. I think it was parked close to where we were. I mean,

8 on that same side of the road there was one police -- it

9 was a police car, a saloon car.

10 Q. When you returned, where was the police vehicle at

11 6.30 am? Where was the police vehicle --

12 A. I'm not thinking that it was anywhere different. I

13 don't recall -- I can't say for sure if it was the same

14 car in the same place, but I don't recall that it was

15 now on the other side of the road or anything.

16 Q. Were there police in it or around it or can you help us

17 with that?

18 A. It is an assumption, but I assume they were sitting in

19 it. I certainly don't remember anyone out on the road

20 or anyone standing at the scene, just parked vehicle,

21 a parked police vehicle. I never spoke to anyone in it,

22 I never ...

23 Q. Were there any other vehicles going up and down the

24 street at 6.30 am when you went down?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Were there any other civilians?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So apart from the police car when you went back down at

4 6.30, that's all there was there?

5 A. Yes, that's all.

6 Q. Again, subject to anything the Inquiry will say, I'm

7 having difficulty finding out who that might have been,

8 but did you, for example, find out or discover

9 subsequently who it might have been or can you help us

10 at all?

11 A. No, I have no idea.

12 Q. Now, just going to paragraph 32 in your statement,

13 [81681], you are describing a detective constable

14 arriving who -- he, we know, is the first

15 detective constable to arrive into the police station

16 and he asked you to prepare a statement. Did he

17 actually give you specific instructions as to what you

18 should include in your statement or is this something

19 you are assuming he did, or can you help us with that?

20 A. Well, no, he just asked me to write a statement for him,

21 including everything in it, words to that effect. He

22 just wanted as much as I could remember.

23 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about -- I'm

24 going to ask you about briefing in conclusion, but

25 I want to ask you just about this business of

1 xxxxxxxxxx/Marc Hobson.

2 You were referred to the statement of Mr Jameson --

3 if we could have it up at [17654] -- and you will

4 remember -- if you highlight from about five lines down,

5 please -- this is Mr Jameson's statement where he is

6 describing this fellow I know to see:

7 "He is called Marc. He is also called Muck. I know

8 this fellow about the town ... short brown hair ... a

9 goatee beard."

10 So that's a description -- you remember that being

11 put to you -- that Mr Jameson gave?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. There is also a description:

14 "I think he was wearing a black leather jacket."

15 What's your recollection about what the person you

16 identify now as being Marc Hobson was wearing?

17 A. I don't really recall now. I do think I put it in the

18 statement at the time, but I can't recall off the top of

19 my head now what --

20 Q. If you look at your notebook -- it is [09969] -- you

21 will remember being referred to this. And in your

22 notebook, whenever it was made, your description was:

23 "... goatee beard, wearing black jacket."

24 A. Yes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a description of --

1 MR ADAIR: Of the xxxxxxxxxx/Hobson that he identified that

2 night.

3 So at that time your description of the person you

4 were identifying was that he was wearing a black jacket?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And had a goatee beard?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about is

9 briefings. I think you have been an officer for how

10 long now?

11 A. Now?

12 Q. Now.

13 A. 27 years.

14 Q. I think in fairness that's ten years of you being in an

15 office-type job?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So not long after this incident, a couple of years after

18 it, you then moved into office-type work. Can you help

19 us with what briefings or what you understood to be

20 briefings after an incident such as this? Were there

21 briefings or not?

22 A. No -- debriefings after --

23 Q. I beg your pardon, it is entirely my fault. Were there

24 debriefings after an incident like this?

25 A. No, there was no such thing as a structured debriefing.

1 Q. Were there debriefings for certain kinds of operations?

2 A. Well, a debriefing would have been where evidence was

3 collected, exhibits were packaged, statements were made,

4 copies of notebooks were provided, things like that.

5 But there was never a structure to it at that time.

6 Q. Well, in what circumstances would what you have just

7 described happen, where exhibits and so on -- what sort

8 of incident would that be?

9 A. A large, pre-planned, organised incident or operations.

10 There would have been facilities for statements,

11 notebooks, evidence, all to be collected afterwards and

12 all the relevant forms and all would have been made

13 available to you. But that was in pre-planned

14 operations.

15 Q. Now, we have heard some discussion -- and I think you

16 were asked a question as to whether officers were ever

17 got into a room together after an incident such as this

18 to pool the information. Did that ever happen?

19 A. Not in my experience. That's not the way it worked, no.

20 Q. Speaking for yourself, would you have any concern about

21 that in relation to future proceedings?

22 A. I would have, yes.

23 Q. What's that?

24 A. Identification -- identification issues. I wouldn't

25 have been happy getting together and pooling my

1 information with other officers. My evidence was my

2 evidence. It was no one else's.

3 MR ADAIR: Yes, thank you.

4 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

5 MR UNDERWOOD: One matter. It is the question of whether

6 you were asked by anybody to draw up a list in

7 consultation with other officers on the scene of people

8 who had been identified there. Did anybody ever ask you

9 to do that?

10 A. Draw up a list of ... not that I recall, no.

11 Q. When the detective attended early in the morning of

12 27 April, is it conceivable even that he would have

13 asked you to do that?

14 A. No. He asked me for a statement, not a list.

15 Q. And you are quite clear, are you, that nobody asked you

16 to go and get together with other officers and get from

17 them recollections of who they saw?

18 A. Not that I recall, no.

19 Q. If you had been asked to do that, was that the sort of

20 order that you would ordinarily have followed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I'll ask that again.

23 A. Not in that format.

24 Q. If a detective asked you to do something in the

25 circumstances that we are discussing here, where you had

1 been asked by your superior officer to wait and do

2 something with the detective and the detective had then

3 given you a request or an order to do something, would

4 that have been a binding order on you as far as you were

5 concerned?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So if a detective had said, "You, officer, please go

8 away, get together with all the other officers at the

9 scene and get a list of all the people they saw", would

10 that have been an order?

11 A. Yes, I guess it would.

12 Q. Were you in the habit of disobeying orders?

13 A. No, no.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you.

15 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: I'm just getting

16 an impression that -- I ask questions in a wrong way,

17 but if you were getting together with other officers to

18 make a composite list, would you then feel that that was

19 a wrong action in that you might be persuading each

20 other to have remembered things you didn't remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 REVEREND BARONESS RICHARDSON: Thank you.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, we have heard a great deal

24 about goatee beards. It might be of help to the Panel

25 if we knew what facial hair, if any, the true Mr xxxxxxxxxx

1 had.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: We are endeavouring, I think, and requests

3 have been made, to get a contemporaneous photograph if

4 they are at all available. And there is no

5 pre-supposition of course that the unfortunate Mr xxxxxxxxxx

6 might have a police record or have some police mugshot.

7 If in some way we can get a photograph of him, then we

8 will do.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

10 Thank you, then, you are free to go.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. I next call the officer

12 William Burrows. I gather it will take him

13 a minute to come round because he is in the other rest

14 room.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: We shall to break off in any event at

16 1 o'clock.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: I understand. I think this witness will be

18 very short, I think.

19 MR WILLIAM HENRY WILFRED BURROWS (sworn)

20 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. I won't ask you your names because we

22 are calling you [Reserve Constable Burrows] while you are here.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. Can I ask you instead to look at page [81326] on the

25 screen? Does your name appear at the top of that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we can just scroll very briefly through the four

3 pages of this statement, can you tell us whether that is

4 your statement?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And is it true?

7 A. Yes, it is true, yes.

8 Q. Just a few questions I want to ask you to elaborate on

9 it, if you would. If you look at the second page,

10 [81327], at paragraph 5, you will see that you say:

11 "In my statement I refer to two police vehicles

12 approaching the security barrier at the police station

13 at speed with their sirens sounding. That was at about

14 1.45 am. I allowed both vehicles into the town centre

15 without stopping them."

16 Did they arrive together, in essence?

17 A. I'm not too sure. But more or less, I think they did,

18 yes.

19 Q. All right, thank you. And did you -- can you now

20 recall -- recognise any of the occupants of the cars?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. If we pick up paragraph 6 and 7 together, you say in

23 paragraph 6:

24 "Some time later, an ambulance approached the

25 barrier with its sirens sounding."

1 Then at paragraph 7, you say:

2 "At about 02:00, I was walking from the security

3 sangar at the barrier towards the security hut at the

4 corner of the station when I met Sergeant P89 and an

5 Inspector McCrum."

6 And you were asked to accompany them into the town.

7 Is that the sequence? Is it that police cars came, then

8 the ambulance and then you had this meeting?

9 A. Aye, that's right, for I would have changed security at

10 2 o'clock. That's how I know that.

11 Q. So you can actually pin a time, can you?

12 A. More or less, yes.

13 Q. Tell us about that. You go from the security sangar to

14 the barrier as a matter of course because you finished

15 duty?

16 A. No, just sometimes a changeover on the hour, you know.

17 Q. Give or take a minute or two?

18 A. Could be delayed or something. That was the way we

19 worked.

20 Q. But you aimed at 2 o'clock on the dot, did you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And you talk in paragraph 7 then of being asked

23 to accompany the sergeant and the inspector in the town.

24 You don't recall them telling you anything about what was

25 happening in the town centre, but you didn't feel

1 alarmed. Did they actually explain why they wanted you

2 to go with them?

3 A. No, I can't remember that.

4 Q. Did the sergeant have a riot gun?

5 A. I don't recall that, no.

6 Q. Would that have been a memorable thing if he had?

7 A. It probably would, you know, it probably would have.

8 Q. Thank you. Then if we go over the page to [81328], you

9 tell us at paragraph 9 that you got out the car, took

10 possession of a submachine gun and took up a cover

11 position in the vicinity of Ronnie's pub in the

12 High Street?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you go on to explain that the gun can't be left

15 alone in a police car?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Your options presumably were to stay in the car with the

18 gun or to get out with the gun with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you explain why you got out with the gun?

21 A. Normally the only time I would do that would be to give

22 cover.

23 Q. You appreciate, of course, that what the Panel is

24 interested in is what was going on that night and how

25 riotous or how extreme the situation was. Does the fact

1 that you felt the need to give cover assist on that?

2 Does that mean that you thought there was something

3 serious going on?

4 A. No, no, I didn't mean cover in that. I meant from just

5 things coming from the other road, not from the riot end

6 of the thing.

7 Q. In other words, people joining?

8 A. Aye, people coming up the street or to stop people --

9 I felt that was what my duty was at that time, you know.

10 Q. So was your attention, as it were, facing the other way

11 from the trouble?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Because that's what I was going to go on to ask you.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Because you apparently didn't see anything of note?

16 A. No.

17 Q. That was simply because your back was to them?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, stopping more people from

20 being able to join in?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you in fact have to stop people?

23 A. There were a couple of people who were concerned about

24 getting up the street and I advised them to go the other

25 way.

1 Q. But you didn't have to force anybody to stop?

2 A. Oh, no, no.

3 Q. And did you allow anybody through?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And can you give us any idea you how long you were

6 there?

7 A. Three quarters of hour, an hour maybe.

8 Q. While your back was to the crowd or the events that were

9 attracting the attention of the other officers, did you

10 hear what was going on?

11 A. No, not really.

12 Q. And were you trained in firearms use?

13 A. Oh, yes, I am.

14 Q. Was there anything that made you believe that there

15 might be any use for it in fact?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And looking at the final page of your statement,

18 [81329], at paragraph 11 you say:

19 "I later returned to the station and continued with

20 my security duty. I signed the [gun] into the armoury

21 ..."

22 Sorry, that's the riot gun, is it? Or is it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. That's the machine gun?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. " ... and stayed on duty at the police station until

2 08:00. The senior officer on duty that night was

3 Inspector McCrum. I do not remember seeing him at the scene

4 but I knew he was on duty."

5 Can you help us with what time of the morning the

6 inspector signed off his duty?

7 A. I would have no idea.

8 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much, officer. It

9 may be that other people will have some questions.

10 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

11 MR McKENNA: No questions.

12 MS DINSMORE: No questions.

13 MR MALLON: No, question.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, the previous witness was asked

15 a question about getting a list of names. I'm not sure

16 if he understood the question properly. There is

17 a distinction between asking someone to go and talk to

18 others and have a discussion which produces a number of

19 names, which is different from simply saying, "Will you

20 say who you recognised" without any discussion. The

21 former we can see objection to, not least because when

22 it comes to cross-examination in any trial, there may be

23 accusations that people have put their heads together.

24 The latter, it seems to me, if it is done correctly,

25 doesn't seem to be open to objection.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, and --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: He is acting simply as a messenger.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: With respect, the Baroness's question picked

4 it up that a number of officers seemed guarded about the

5 concept that they might have got together with others to

6 compile lists of anything. Well, that officer was asked

7 it as many times as he could reasonably have been asked

8 it by various people.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's something about which we are

10 entitled to draw our own conclusions.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: That does conclude the evidence for the day.

12 I know that the Panel at least has a meeting at

13 1 o'clock.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Then, 10.30 on Tuesday.

15 (12.50 pm)

16 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am on Tuesday,

17 24 March 2009)

1 I N D E X

2
MR GORDON WALTER COOKE (sworn) ................... 1
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 1
4
Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 17
5
Questions by MR McKENNA ...................... 18
6
Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 24
7
Questions by MR MALLON ....................... 45
8
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 63
9
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 70
10
MR WILLIAM HENRY WILFRED BURROWS (sworn) ......... 72
11
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 72
12

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 20th March 2009, day 31