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Hearing: 13th March 2009, day 28

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Friday, 13 March 2009

commencing at 10.00 am

Day 28

1 Friday, 13 March 2009

2 (10.00 am)

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, there is an application to be

4 made.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: As I understand it, yes, but I think at

6 a convenient moment.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. Very well.

8 MR ALLISTER HANVEY (continued)

9 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD (continued)

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Hanvey.

11 A. Good morning, Mr Underwood.

12 Q. After the events of the early hours of 27 April 1997 did

13 you become aware that the policeman we are calling Robert

14 Atkinson made a phone call to your house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. If we look at [17329], this is back in Tracey Clarke's

17 statement of 10 May. If we pick up the middle third of

18 it, three lines down -- we have looked at a little bit

19 of this before:

20 "He ..."

21 That's you:

22 "... wanted to know what I had told the police and as

23 I had not been seen by the police, I made up a few things to

24 annoy him. I remember Robert Atkinson's name coming up and

Allister said that Robert Atkinson had

25 been very good to him because on the Sunday morning

1 after the incident in the town centre, he rang him at

2 about 8 am and told him to get rid of the clothes he was

3 wearing the previous night. Since then, Allister has

4 contacted me on numerous occasions and keeps asking me

5 what I said to the police. He also told me that Robert

6 Atkinson was ringing him every day to keep him up to date

7 with the police investigation."

8 Now, is any of that true?

9 A. None whatsoever.

10 Q. Because we know there was a phone call made from Robert

11 Atkinson's home to your home at about half past eight. Can

12 you tell us how Tracey Clarke would have known about that?

13 A. I have absolutely no knowledge of this phone call

14 whatsoever and I can't tell you how Tracey Clarke would

15 have known about this phone call.

16 Q. You never asked her?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Never asked her about this statement?

19 A. No. As I've said to Mr Pinfield in 2006, once we got

20 back together again it was move on. Never spoken about

21 it. I know nothing of this phone call. I can't help

22 you, Mr Underwood.

23 Q. When did you get back together with her?

24 A. My oldest daughter -- she was eight at the end

25 of January. I'm trying to work out the dates here for

1 you. She was eight at the end of January, possibly

2 a year and a half before that.

3 Q. So after you came out of prison?

4 A. It was a bit of time after I got out of prison.

5 Q. Okay. Did you have any contact with her while you were

6 in prison?

7 A. Only contact was that she sent me a birthday card.

8 Q. No phone calls?

9 A. Oh, no.

10 Q. Did Andrea McKee visit in you prison?

11 A. She did, yes.

12 Q. Why?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. We have heard that you could only have visitors in

15 prison if the prisoner consents to the visit. So you

16 obviously consented. Why was that?

17 A. Simply because I thought it was a general visit from

18 someone that -- Michael McKee was my Tae Kwon Do instructor,

19 Andrea McKee was his wife and two people that trained

20 with me attended the interview with him who I considered

21 to be friends.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. So I had no real reason not to consent for them to come

24 down to see me.

25 Q. Okay. I was asking you yesterday evening about what you

1 did after the events of the early hours and you said you

2 went to your uncle Tommy's and you stayed there until

3 your dad picked you up in the morning?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that in fact you went to

6 Tracy McAlpine's house and stayed there until five or

7 six o'clock in the morning?

8 A. No, if it was in my original statement that I had

9 said -- I hope you understand, Mr Underwood, it is

10 12 years ago -- I have to go back to my original

11 statement to refresh my memory.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think we all have that point by now,

13 Mr Hanvey.

14 A. Yes, and I have to keep making that point because I have

15 no recollection of 12 years ago unless I refer back to

16 my original statement.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you will find that repetition adds

18 neither to its veracity nor its lack of veracity. It

19 leaves it as it stands. Yes?

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Let me put a proposition to you. The police

21 officer made the telephone call to your home, you

22 weren't there -- it is about half past eight or so the

23 next morning -- to tell you to cover your tracks, and

24 what you did then was to make a concerted effort to

25 cover tracks of what you did on the evening. What do

1 you say about that?

2 A. That's totally untrue.

3 Q. Let me put that in parts, all right? The first part

4 I say is that you made up a story to the effect that you

5 went to your uncle Tommy's rather than that

6 Tracy McAlpine's house and you deny that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me show you out of fairness the documents that

9 relate to this. If we look at page [09192], this is the

10 statement that you keep referring back to and if we look

11 at about the middle third of it, pretty much in the

12 middle of that, on the right-hand side:

13 "The ambulance crews treated the injured men for

14 some time before taking both men away."

15 We know what time they took them away, two minutes

16 past two:

17 "I stayed up the town for another 15 minutes or so

18 and I then walked down through the town centre and

19 walked out to my uncle's house... My uncle was lying on

20 the couch when I arrived at his home. I told my uncle

21 what had happened."

22 How long would it have taken you to walk to your

23 uncle's house?

24 A. From the town until my uncle's house: approximately

25 10/15 minutes.

1 Q. Okay. So on this account you would have been there by

2 about half past two?

3 A. Well, if it had taken 10 to 15 minutes, going by this,

4 that would be correct.

5 Q. If we look at [09193], here is the statement that your

6 uncle Thomas made to the police on 11 May 1997, and what

7 he says is, third line down:

8 "I can remember Sunday morning 27 April 1997. I was

9 at home. I was lying on the sofa in the living room

10 watching a late film. Some time at about half three or

11 four that morning, Allister arrived at my home. He

12 would often come to my house if he had drink taken as

13 his family aren't in favour of him taking drink.

14 "He wouldn't come to my home on a regular basis, but

15 usually about twice a month. He had a brave few in him

16 but wasn't drunk. He wasn't falling about the place. I

17 was cross with him because he had come to the house so

18 late. I went to bed, but before I went to bed he told

19 me that there had been a fight up the town. I asked him if

20 he had been involved in the fight and he said he

21 hadn't."

22 And he remembered there what you were wearing. Was

23 he put up to that statement?

24 A. Not at all.

25 Q. Then if we look at [17361], this is the account -- we

1 have seen this before. It is a statement of a police

2 officer who had a conversation with your parents. And

3 if we look four lines down:

4 "There we spoke to Mr Kenneth and

5 Mrs Elizabeth Hanvey. We questioned them as to the

6 involvement of their son Allister on 26/4/97.

7 They related how Allister left home after tea and went

8 into town."

9 They could remember what you were wearing too and

10 they put it there:

11 "Asked when they'd first heard of the fight, they

12 stated Kenneth and wife had got out of bed at about 9 am

13 27/4/97. He, Kenneth, went and fed cattle, and wife made

14 breakfast. Kenneth then went to his brother Thomas's

15 house and spoke to Allister, who informed him of the

16 fight."

17 Was your father put up to that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Because you weren't at Thomas's house, were you?

20 A. If I said in my original statement I was at Thomas's

21 house, I was there.

22 Q. Okay. There are a large number of witnesses who say you

23 were at Tracy McAlpine's, and I will show you them

24 briefly, again out of fairness. [70957], this is

25 Stephen Bloomer. If we go over the page, three quarters

1 of the way down, halfway down, this:

2 "Do you recall Allister Hanvey at the party?

3 Answer: "Yes."

4 Question: "When did he arrive?"

5 Answer: "I don't know."

6 Question: "Whose company was he in?"

7 Answer: "It was just like a living room, everybody

8 sitting about it."

9 Do you know him?

10 A. Stephen Bloomer?

11 Q. Hm-mm?

12 A. I know of him, passing.

13 Q. Any reason why he should put you --

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. Any --

16 A. No, I have no explanation for that.

17 Q. Page [00579], this is a statement of Iain Carville. If

18 we pick it up at the bottom, last four lines:

19 "We walked over the footbridge into Edgarstown and

20 Stephen Bloomer, Marc Hobson and I think Allister Hanvey

21 went to Tracy McAlpine's house. I don't know where

22 Chris went. I eventually walked down [somewhere] to

23 Tracey's house and joined the others there. This must

24 have been after 3 am.

25 "At the house, I recall seeing Pauline, Tracey's

1 sister, Shelley Liggett, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey,

2 Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, Marc Hobson, Stephen Bloomer,

3 somebody else, Chris Henderson and Andrew Allen."

4 Any reason why he would say that?

5 A. No, I have no explanation for that.

6 Q. Page [09128], this is a statement of Pauline Newell. If

7 we go over the page, the second half of this, she says

8 she met up with Tracey and Kelly:

9 "We walked on home to Tracy's [Tracy McAlpine's]

10 house together. There were both people in front and behind

11 us, but I can't recall who. When we got to Tracy's

12 there was just the three of us. Tracey and Kelly went

13 up to bed. Tracey got sick in the bathroom. We'd been

14 in the house a short time when I answered a knock at the

15 door. It was Andrew Osborne and Judith Holland. I let

16 them in. I talked to Judith and Andrew fell asleep. I

17 left them downstairs and went up to bed. This must have

18 been about a quarter past two or so. I slept and woke

19 some time around 5 am. I got up to get a drink of water

20 and came downstairs to get one.

21 "In the living room, I saw a number of people. I

22 don't know who'd let them in, but remember seeing

23 Allister Hanvey, Stephen Sinnamon, Fonzy,

24 Chris Henderson and Dean Forbes. I think Dean had only

25 arrived. I got my drink and went back up to bed. I

1 don't know what time everybody else left, but Kelly said

2 in the morning that she'd thrown them out for painting

3 her face with make-up."

4 So any reason why she would put you there that you

5 know?

6 A. I have no explanation for that.

7 Q. If we look at page [17649], this is a document made by

8 Tracey Clarke on 8 May 1997, so before she'd gone into

9 the police station and made the statement you say is

10 false. If we look over the page at page 16650 at the

11 bottom there, four lines down there:

12 "Party at house. Tracy McAlpine new house.

13 Pauline Newell, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey, Stephen Sinnamon,

14 Fonzy."

15 Again, consistency among these people about who is

16 there. Again, any explanation?

17 A. No explanation.

18 Q. If we look at [70980], she is asked there at the bottom:

19 Question: "Were you at a party at Tracey McAlpine's

20 house later that evening?"

21 Answer: "Went to Tracey house to collect clothing."

22 Go over the page, roughly in the middle:

23 "Do you recall Allister Hanvey at the party?

24 Answer: "I don't think he was there when I was

25 there."

1 Question: "When did he arrive?"

2 Answer: "Can't say."

3 So this is somebody who is neutral about you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Then if we look at [17308], this is Jason McClure. If

6 we pick up the bottom ten lines or so:

7 "We walked up the town to this house ... I wasn't

8 sure of the address. There was a young girl, Pauline,

9 in the house, Dean Forbes, Ally Hanvey maybe, maybe

10 Stephen Sinnamon, I can't remember. I recall someone in

11 the house mentioning the fight in the town, but I can't

12 recall now what or who said it. I left the party around

13 five or six in the morning and walked down the town to the

14 taxi with Allister Hanvey and Christopher Henderson."

15 Is that true?

16 A. That's not true.

17 Q. Let's have a look at Christopher Henderson,

18 page [21624]. Final four lines:

19 "In the living room were Allister Hanvey, Stephen

20 Sinnamon, possibly Dean Forbes (unsure) and a girl,

21 Kelly Lavery."

22 Go over the page, four lines down:

23 "Henderson walked back through the town with

24 Allister Hanvey and they got a taxi from Z Cabs up

25 home."

1 He went on to say that possibly Jason McClure may

2 have been there, but he could be wrong. It might have

3 been an another weekend.

4 So they were the two people who say they were

5 walking back from the party with you in the morning to

6 get a taxi from Z Cabs. What do you say about that?

7 A. That's not true.

8 Q. Can we have a look at page [23814]? Go over the page.

9 What this is, second line, is a phone call at 9.46 from

10 your uncle Thomas's house to Jonathan Wright's house.

11 Can you give any reason why that phone call would have

12 been made?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Is it that your father, having got to your uncle's to

15 pick you up -- you weren't there -- he is ringing round

16 your friends --

17 A. I have no explanation as to why a phone call was made

18 from that house to the other house.

19 Q. Okay. Have a look at page [17323], please. This is

20 a statement of somebody who is an officer at the First

21 Trust Bank and they talk about an account -- about six

22 lines down towards the right-hand side:

23 "The account opening application refers to a Select

24 account number ... in the name of Allister Hanvey. This

25 account was opened on 13 October 1994 and was closed on

1 6 May 1997. No person other than Mr Hanvey would have

2 been permitted to withdraw funds from the account as it

3 was opened in his sole name. I have been shown [some

4 further exhibits]."

5 And a few lines further down:

6 "I have been asked about a transaction dated

7 27 April 1997 at 08:46. This transaction is shown on an

8 extract of [a] First Trust Bank report with details of all

9 ATM transactions and is produced on a daily basis."

10 If we go over the page, last four lines of that:

11 "One of these transactions, being a debit for £10

12 occurring at 08:46 on 27 April 1997, contains a series

13 of numbers which match the card number as appears on the

14 ATM printout from the First Trust Bank."

15 What she is saying there is that your card was used

16 to take £10 out of the First Trust Bank in the middle of

17 Portadown at 08.46 on 27 April. How could that be?

18 A. I have no explanation for that whatsoever.

19 Q. Was it to pay for the taxi?

20 A. I have no recollection.

21 Q. The taxi you had gone to pick up with Chris Henderson

22 and Mr McClure?

23 A. I have no recollection of that.

24 Q. Why do you need a false alibi about being at

25 Tracey McAlpine's?

1 A. I didn't need a false alibi. I have no recollection of

2 that whatsoever.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you lose your cash card?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Or lend it to anyone?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Really?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Quite a serious matter if you lose your cash

10 card, isn't it?

11 A. I would imagine so, yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, when you get your account, do you

13 watch to see what money you have drawn out?

14 A. Well, normally that would be the practice. If you take

15 money out, you would normally. But I have no

16 recollection of this transaction.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: It sounds, doesn't it, as though when you

18 looked at your account, you didn't find £10, "That's

19 odd, I can't remember that"?

20 A. £10 is possibly not quite a lot of money, but I have no

21 recollection.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Rather more then than now, but you said you

23 would look at your account to check it but you have no

24 recollection of seeing, "That's funny, there's an item

25 there that I don't remember"? Does that suggest that

1 this was a withdrawal made by you?

2 A. I have no recollection of this.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I daresay you haven't.

4 A. I haven't, no.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: But does the fact that you didn't at the time

6 query it suggest to you that it must have been one that

7 you accepted as a withdrawal made by you?

8 A. Query a £10 transaction? I probably would not query

9 a £10 transaction.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: What were you working as then?

11 A. I was working in Unit Air Plastics as an extruder

12 operator.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: What was your weekly take home?

14 A. My weekly take home. I worked over three shifts and if

15 you took the three shifts, each shift was of a different

16 wage, so at that time my average wage would have

17 probably been about £200 take home.

18 MR UNDERWOOD: You closed the account on 6 May. Why was

19 that?

20 A. I have no recollection of closing the account.

21 Q. You can remember how much you were earning but you can't

22 remember closing your account?

23 A. Yes, because I worked in the unit there for five years.

24 So obviously I know how much I was paid.

25 Q. Did you close the account in the hope of covering your

1 tracks about being there and taking the £10 out of it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can we have a look at page [07354]. This is part of an

4 interview with Andrew Allen and he is being asked about

5 the party at Tracy McAlpine's at the top. Was this

6 fight discussed in the house, and he said:

7 "I heard."

8 Question: "What did you hear?"

9 Answer: "I heard that somebody hit somebody with

10 a bottle."

11 If we go over the page, two thirds down the page:

12 "Allen: I heard that Hanvey had hit somebody with

13 a bottle:"

14 Is that why you distanced yourself from the party,

15 because there you all were gloating about hitting

16 Mr Hamill?

17 A. I never hit anyone with a bottle.

18 Q. You are lying to us, aren't you?

19 A. Absolutely not.

20 Q. Have a look at page [21147]. This is a picture of

21 a jacket of a type which Tracey Clarke's stepfather says

22 was similar to the one he saw you wearing. Does it ring

23 any bells?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can we have a look at page [06606], a part of the police

1 interview of you after you were arrested?

2 A. Hm-mm.

3 Q. Three quarters of the way down the page:

4 "... you mentioned in that there that you were wearing

5 a black jacket?

6 Answer: "Yes."

7 Question: "Right, can you further describe that

8 jacket for us? How else can you?"

9 Answer [06607]: "It's like a, like a puffed up jacket.

10 You know, like one of them ones like you can see the, like

11 rings as it goes down, like a puffed up jacket. And

12 there's a Caterpillar badge to the left-hand side. And

13 it's waist length, so it is.

14 Question: "Can you describe the sleeves of it for us?"

15 Answer: "The sleeves are already puffed up as well

16 with a cuff like that."

17 Question [06608]: "And what colour is the sleeves?"

18 Answer: "Black."

19 Question: "Do you own another jacket?"

20 Answer: "No, that's the only jacket I have, so it

21 is."

22 Over the page [06609], you were asked about a jacket

23 with grey sleeves, and you say:

24 "No definitely not, definitely not.

25 Question: "Do you possess such a jacket?"

1 Answer: "No. As I said, that Caterpillar jacket is

2 the only jacket I have."

3 Question: "Have you ever owned a jacket with grey

4 sleeves?"

5 Answer: "No... never."

6 Question: "Are you sure about that?"

7 Answer: "Absolutely positive."

8 Q. Was that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And still your evidence is, is it, that you didn't have

11 a jacket from Tracey Clarke for Christmas in 1996?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Do you remember going to a shop called Paranoid to have

14 a jacket mended?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Because it had a cigarette burn on the sleeve?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you smoke in 1997?

19 A. Possibly, yes.

20 Q. May I suggest you did have a jacket for Christmas in

21 1996 and you burned on hole in it and you took it back

22 to the shop to have it fixed?

23 A. Totally untrue.

24 Q. And that whatever jacket you were wearing on the night

25 of 27 April, you destroyed as part of covering your

1 tracks?

2 A. Not true.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

4 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr O'Hare?

6 Questions by MR O'HARE

7 MR O'HARE: The police charged the right man when they

8 charged you with the murder of Mr Hamill.

9 A. That's incorrect.

10 Q. Why did you go on to the UVF wing as opposed to the LVF

11 wing?

12 A. Once we were arrested from my mother's house, brought to

13 Lurgan police station and then brought to Hydebank, and

14 for the safety of our own lives in Hydebank we were

15 moved to the Maze prison on to the UVF wings.

16 Q. Did you not understand the question I asked you?

17 A. Why did I move?

18 Q. Why the UVF wing as opposed to the LVF wing?

19 A. Because I was a young lad and we were just being took

20 out of Hydebank and put -- it really made no odds, I

21 didn't know nothing about it.

22 Q. You didn't no know about it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Pot luck --

25 A. Obviously I have heard of the UVF, obviously I have

1 heard of the LVF. Obviously I have heard of all, but I

2 was in fear for my life in Hydebank.

3 Q. So it was pot luck that you chose the UVF wing as

4 opposed to the LVF wing?

5 A. Pot luck? It was arranged.

6 Q. But I could stand here and ask you questions until the

7 cows come home, but you wouldn't admit anything, would

8 you, Mr Hanvey?

9 A. Well, I'm only telling the truth.

10 Q. Just like you were telling the truth to the police in

11 1997?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Tell me this, Mr Hanvey, what does it feel like to be

14 a murderer?

15 A. I'm not a murderer.

16 MR O'HARE: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman, it

17 would only be comment.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, may I remind you that the purpose

19 of questioning witnesses is to assist the Inquiry to get

20 at the truth and to assist the Inquiry to be able to

21 evaluate the reliability and integrity and honesty of

22 the witnesses.

23 We aren't helped by going over again matters which

24 have already been heard, and it is important to focus on

25 the purpose of the questions, whether they help the

1 Panel.

2 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir. I have an application to make, sir.

3 This would be the appropriate time to make it. I have

4 informed Mr Underwood and Mr McComb of the nature of the

5 application and I believe it would be appropriate to

6 make it in chambers.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Are you asking for it to be in public?

8 MR McCOMB: I think we all think it would be appropriate in

9 chambers.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well, we will have to rise.

11 Just before we do, Mr Underwood, you referred to

12 page 70780 and I didn't get the name of the person

13 whose statement or interview it was.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: So sorry. In fact, I meant [70980] and

15 that's Shelley Liggett.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Very well. 10 minutes.

17 (10.31 am)

18 (Short adjournment)

19 (10.44 am)

20 (In camera)

21 (11.25 am)

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, can I just explain where we are? There

23 is an application outstanding, but some documentation is

24 required before you can be asked to rule on it.

25 In the meanwhile, I know that Mr Mallon and Mr Berry

1 have some questions for Mr Hanvey and I think it is

2 possible that Mr McGrory could start his

3 cross-examination before that matter is resolved, if it

4 takes time to get the documentation. We anticipate we

5 will get it within the next half an hour perhaps.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I think probably if we take Mr Berry's and

7 Mr Mallon's questions now and then Mr McGrory will be

8 able to begin asking questions in the hope that, before

9 he reaches this point, we will have this information.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

12 Questions by MR MALLON

13 MR MALLON: I'm very much obliged, Mr Chairman.

14 Mr Hanvey, I appear on behalf of Constable Robert Atkinson.

15 I wonder if he could be shown the name of the constable?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. My name is James Mallon.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about your

20 expertise in Tae Kwon Do and your relationship with the

21 Tae Kwon Do club, how you left it and the instruction

22 that you gave to people in the club and after the club?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What age were you when you first took up Tae Kwon Do?

25 A. Approximately 12/13 years of age.

1 Q. Now, is Tae Kwon Do a martial art where you use, as it

2 were, both blocking, attacks and throws?

3 A. No throws.

4 Q. It is all hand work, feet --

5 A. Hand, feet, defence, attack.

6 Q. And the idea of that is that you learn patterns -- are

7 they called katas?

8 A. Patterns. There are different names for different

9 martial arts, but in Tae Kwon Do they are call patterns.

10 Q. And a pattern is a block and a move and counter move?

11 A. A pattern is maybe a sequence. The higher up you go ...

12 Q. The more complicated?

13 A. The more complicated your patterns become. At the

14 start, your pattern will maybe consist of a dozen moves.

15 When you get to black belt, you may be talking 100/150

16 sequential moves.

17 Q. All of which are designed for both offence and defence?

18 A. Defence, yes.

19 Q. As part of that are you taught also dangerous moves,

20 moves that can hurt people?

21 A. Tae Kwon Do is all -- martial arts in general is all

22 about control and not aggression. Also obviously it is

23 a martial art, so you are taught how to defend yourself.

24 It speaks for itself, really.

25 Q. Would it be fair to say that it is controlled aggression

1 and defence?

2 A. Yes, controlled, yes.

3 Q. Now, as part of that do you have equipment to protect

4 yourself when you are in training?

5 A. Oh, yes, yes.

6 Q. And is that in the form of gloves, head gear, foot gear?

7 A. At the start, whenever I first started, head gear wasn't

8 compulsory, gloves and feet gear were, but the rules

9 changed and then head gear was compulsory.

10 Q. So you started about 12 or 13?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you start on the level of grading and belts?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What grade did you eventually reach and how many years

15 did that take you?

16 A. I reached second degree black belt over a period of four

17 or five years.

18 Q. That's quite quick.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you have an expertise or knack in this that made you

21 slightly different from everyone else? Slightly

22 quicker?

23 A. I competed at quite a high level, yes.

24 Q. You say you competed. What competitions and how high

25 a level did you compete to?

1 A. Several Ulster titles, British titles. Silver medal in

2 the world championships.

3 Q. So you had a really very, very distinguished short

4 career?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you leave Tae Kwon Do, or did you ever actually

7 leave it?

8 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean by that the club?

9 MR MALLON: I mean active participation more.

10 A. When did I stop competing in competitions?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Exact dates and times --

13 Q. I'm not asking you -- roughly what age would you have

14 been?

15 A. Roughly what age would I have been? 18 possibly.

16 Q. 18?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After that, having reached such a high level, did you

19 give instruction and did you teach?

20 A. Whilst I was a member of the club, I had a wee separate

21 club in Armagh where I was an instructor, yes.

22 Q. Did you also instruct individuals when they were coming

23 up for grading and things of that nature?

24 A. No, I was back there -- you have to go through exams -- I was

25 unable to grade people. I had my qualifications --

1 instructor's badge, but I did not have my grading badge.

2 Q. Can you assist people in training?

3 A. Oh, yes.

4 Q. To grade?

5 A. Oh, yes. I several times took the class at the club.

6 Q. In the club, how many young people would there have been

7 who would have been junior to you not in age but in

8 expertise. Would there have been anybody higher in the

9 club, more expert than you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And as part of being a member of such a club, as part of

12 that club are you ever asked to take classes and

13 training, as it were?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever do that for the daughter of Robert Atkinson?

16 Was she ever known to you?

17 A. Robert Atkinson's daughter? Yes.

18 Q. Yes. And would you have instructed and trained her?

19 A. Yes. It kind of ranged from five year old to 50 year

20 old.

21 Q. As part of that instruction and training of her, do you

22 ever remember instructing her to improve her grading?

23 A. If I was requested to take a class where I (inaudible)

24 you know, do anything -- my instructor was obviously --

25 he run the whole club.

1 Q. That was Michael McKee?

2 A. Yes. If he had been have been absent or if he had been

3 somewhere else, I would have been asked to take the

4 class.

5 Q. And as such, those people would have looked up to you

6 and respected you?

7 A. Pretty much.

8 Q. Did you keep in contact with them or was it a situation

9 where they only met you when there was telephonic

10 contact between you?

11 A. There was no telephonic contact. I was at the club.

12 Obviously to reach a high level you had to be dedicated,

13 so I pretty much trained --

14 Q. At the club and they met you at the club?

15 A. Pretty much on a nightly basis.

16 Q. Did you have any other brothers or sisters who were

17 involved in this?

18 A. Two younger brothers gave it a shot, xxxxxxxxxx maybe

19 possibly made the green belt and xxxxxxxxxx made the

20 yellow belt, I can't tell. Those two did, but they

21 didn't follow through.

22 Q. After you left, what did you do with your equipment?

23 A. After I left --

24 Q. When you finished competing and you finished in the

25 club?

1 A. I obviously kept a pair of gloves down for my own

2 personal training and my own personal time. Suits,

3 belts, trophies, medals.

4 Q. What about pattern books and things like that? When you

5 reached your level, did you have a complicated pattern

6 book?

7 A. My instructor would have held the pattern book and it

8 was more practical to do the patterns without looking at

9 a book. My instructor was a fifth degree black belt, so

10 he knew the patterns that I had to be taught. So there

11 was no real necessity for a book. He would have taught

12 me through his knowledge.

13 Q. We have heard that Mr McKee unhappily lapsed into

14 a period of drunkenness really?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He became a drunk?

17 A. Yes, when Michael McKee would have disappeared, I would

18 have been left with --

19 Q. You would have had the pattern books and things in the

20 club yourself?

21 A. He wouldn't have been away for that long for me to have

22 to teach somebody a pattern for a grading or whatever.

23 It was just maybe a two or three-day period, can you

24 keep the classes going, and I was dedicated to my

25 training so I kept the classes going.

1 Q. Did you actually lose respect for him as he became

2 a alcoholic?

3 A. I gradually lost respect for him through time, through

4 his absence, yes.

5 Q. And your interest in the club, was it strong when he was

6 strong and a good teacher?

7 A. Oh, yes. I would perhaps -- he was a very good

8 instructor when he was compos mentis.

9 Q. Yes. When the club gradually wound down, it didn't

10 happen just at once, it happened over a period of time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And during that time he spent more and more time away?

13 A. Oh, yes.

14 Q. And the running of the club fell more and more on your

15 shoulders?

16 A. It did fall on my shoulders completely. There was

17 another guy there, Rodney Smyth, who would have competed

18 at quite a high level as well, if you know what I mean.

19 I wasn't running the club. There was classes, it was

20 just pretty much trying to keep the younger ones

21 interested. But I knew at that point that things were

22 going down hill.

23 Q. And then over that period of time after 18 you lost

24 interest and he had gone?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that the way it worked?

2 A. Pretty much whenever we went to America to compete in

3 the world championships. Most American martial arts

4 club were full-time martial arts club, whereas over here

5 Michael had a job, he run his clubs throughout and

6 worked at the same time. So whenever he got back to

7 Northern Ireland, he thought this was a great idea

8 opening a full-time gym, which didn't work out.

9 Q. I understand. Now, you admitted you were in town that

10 particular night?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You have been very straight about that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that you were part of the crowd?

15 A. Hm-mm.

16 Q. Do you remember seeing officer Robert Atkinson there?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember being in front of a sergeant of police,

19 P89? Could you show ...?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You don't remember that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you remember being part of the crowd?

24 A. As I said in my original statement, I never denied that

25 I was in the town that night.

1 Q. Could we have 11084, please, paragraph 17. I'm sorry,

2 I may have given you the wrong number. Just one second.

3 You see, that officer said that he noted you, that you

4 were an individual who was very hostile towards him and

5 that you would not move back. Do you remember that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. He said:

8 "I had to physically push him ..."

9 It is page [80843], thank you. Paragraph 17,

10 please, [80847]. Now, he said to the Inquiry team:

11 "I had to physically push him in the chest area.

12 But it got to the stage where I thought he would assault

13 me because of his attitude towards me."

14 He said you were shouting in his face and that he

15 recalls Robert Atkinson saying:

16 "... 'be careful' or words to that effect."

17 When he looks back at his original statements, he

18 said:

19 "'I can recall [the officer] saying words to the

20 effect, "Do you know who he is? Watch him. That fellow

21 is an expert or black belt in martial arts".'"

22 I want to make clear to you that nobody is alleging

23 that you used those martial arts on the sergeant or the

24 crowd or as part of that crowd.

25 A. Hm-mm.

1 Q. But they did feel a genuine fear of you that was

2 communicated because of your martial arts expertise.

3 A. Hm-mm.

4 Q. You were also resilient. In fact, you were resisting

5 the police endeavours to push the crowd clear of the

6 area. That's what I'm suggesting: you weren't fighting,

7 but you had an aura of menace about you and you were

8 resisting the pushing back of that crowd by the police?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And that you were noted because Robert Atkinson knew you?

11 A. Hm-mm.

12 Q. But, again, I'm making it plain to you: no activity, no

13 martial arts, no assaults, no striking, nothing, but you

14 had an aura of menace because you were angry and annoyed

15 that night?

16 A. That's just not true.

17 Q. You don't remember it?

18 A. That's just not true.

19 Q. You see, when I went through the martial arts with you,

20 it was controlled aggression?

21 A. Yes, that's what martial arts is about.

22 Q. And there seems to have been here an element of

23 controlled aggression which was picked up by the

24 sergeant and by the reserve constable, specifically

25 related to you?

1 A. That's not true.

2 Q. You remember in Tracey Clarke's statement she makes

3 allegations against Robert Atkinson in relation to two

4 separate phone calls? The first call is on the Sunday

5 morning at 8.37. It came from Robert Atkinson's house

6 and it was received in the Hanvey house?

7 A. I know nothing of these phone calls.

8 Q. You know nothing about it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Because that phone call is supposed to have contained

11 a warning to you. Did you ever receive a warning from

12 anyone in your house in respect of any phone call?

13 A. No, I know nothing of any phone call.

14 Q. Nothing of that --

15 A. Nothing of the phone call.

16 Q. Now, there was a second phone call from Robert Atkinson's

17 wife on 4 May. She says -- will say -- that that was a

18 request to you to find out if you had any spare equipment

19 for her daughter who was doing grading and who needed

20 access to the pattern books to learn the patterns, and

21 she needed whatever spare equipment you had.

22 A. Hm-mm.

23 Q. Do you remember whether you gave any spare equipment

24 away or were asked to give any away?

25 A. I can't recollect a phone call like that or any

1 equipment being handed over or anything like that.

2 Q. When the club had closed, do you know where the pattern

3 books went?

4 A. I would have no idea because I was not a member of the

5 club when it closed as such.

6 Q. As such a person at the rank that you were, would it

7 have been reasonable to conceive that you might have had

8 access to your own pattern or access to a pattern book?

9 A. It is possible that I had access -- I obviously had

10 access to pattern books, but it wouldn't have been the

11 situation where every member of the club would have had

12 a pattern book. If someone needed it, maybe someone

13 would have got it. As I said, my instructor taught me

14 my patterns through knowledge because he knew the

15 patterns, and it is much more practical to do it as

16 opposed to look at a book and then go back and forward

17 to the book when you have someone there who can

18 physically show you what to do.

19 Q. So if you didn't have a pattern book at that time, would

20 you have remembered patterns well enough to teach

21 someone if you had to?

22 A. Well, I'm sure I would have remembered certain patterns.

23 No, because it would have been -- I can't remember how

24 long it was that I was out of the club before it

25 actually shut down. But see now, if you ask me to do

1 a pattern I wouldn't feel that --

2 Q. I understand that.

3 A. You needed to be -- this is the sort of thing that you

4 needed to be doing on a regular basis for -- for to

5 remember them.

6 Q. Now, I may have misled you in that the second phone call

7 you received, in fact, that's not the case. I'm

8 wondering did you hear of it, the one requesting the

9 access to your pattern books?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And to your equipment?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You don't remember anything about that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, during the time that you were in the Tae Kwon Do

16 club, did you know Robert Atkinson? Did you ever meet him?

17 A. I just knew him to see because, as I said, the drill of

18 the Tae Kwon Do: I went in, went down, got myself ready,

19 stayed at the gym. After the classes was over, nine

20 times out of ten I would have stayed on and trained,

21 possibly with somebody else who was willing to train,

22 extra training, you know, to better myself.

23 Q. That would have gone on over a number of years?

24 A. Oh, yes.

25 Q. Did you ever meet Mrs Eleanor Atkinson, as it were?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You have no recollection of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, do you remember the daughter of Robert Atkinson?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was she a talented martial artist?

7 A. Yes, she was a very talented young girl, yes.

8 Q. Was she like yourself, going ahead quickly?

9 A. Oh, yes.

10 Q. Would she have been suitable in your opinion to go to

11 the European or world championships?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. She would have been?

14 A. For her age group, yes, for a young girl, yes.

15 Q. Was she seen?

16 A. You have to be keen. You have to be dedicated.

17 Q. More than that, was she good?

18 A. She was good, yes.

19 Q. Did you ever go out with Robert Atkinson and his wife, either

20 socially or as part of a group, part of the club?

21 A. The only time that competitions -- my Tae Kwon Do

22 instructor, we fought north, south, on the mainland, you

23 know. That would have been the only time that he would

24 have been in the same group as myself.

25 Q. Was there any special relationship between you and him?

1 A. Absolutely not.

2 Q. And with regard to professionally, as a police officer,

3 did you ever meet him that you can recollect in the

4 course of his normal duties?

5 A. No.

6 MR MALLON: Thank you.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the information for which Mr McGrory asks

8 available?

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Not that I know of. Mr Ferguson will be the

10 first in possession of it.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

12 MR ATCHISON: Sir, I think I can help in that

13 Mr Ferguson furnished me with a concise handwritten

14 note. We would need perhaps to speak to Mr Underwood if

15 now would be a convenient juncture, sir.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we can get on at the moment

17 without -- yes, Mr Berry?

18 MR BERRY: I'm happy to proceed.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.

20 Questions by MR BERRY

21 MR BERRY: Mr Hanvey, your recollection of the Tae Kwon Do

22 club is pretty good, isn't it?

23 A. Hm-mm.

24 Q. And we are back to events in the 1990s, aren't we?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You have no trouble with your memory about it at all

2 then, have you?

3 A. No, because I pretty much -- that was my life. It was

4 six days a week training so my memory would obviously be

5 fresh about that because it was the most important part

6 of my life for four or five years.

7 Q. You don't have a general difficulty with your memory

8 then, do you?

9 A. Not generally, no.

10 Q. Just maybe about specific things?

11 A. Specific points.

12 Q. Things about being accused of murder. That would be

13 something you might have had difficulty with your memory

14 about?

15 A. Being accused of murder, it is just a totally false

16 accusation.

17 Q. But that wouldn't present you with a difficulty with

18 your memory about the events, would it?

19 A. About 12 years ago?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. About one night? As I said, refer to my original

22 statement as a true account of what happened.

23 Q. But yet you can assist the Tribunal with what went on at

24 the Tae Kwon Do club when Michael McKee was away?

25 A. Yes, because that would have been a regular thing. He

1 would have maybe disappeared for a day here and a day

2 there. Obviously if I'm running -- not running things,

3 but taking classes, it is something that I will remember

4 because this was the biggest -- basically the biggest

5 part of my life. I was dedicated to it. Of course I'm

6 going to remember it.

7 Q. Tell me, do you know a Jonathan Wright?

8 A. In 199 -- in hindsight, whenever I was talking to

9 Barnaby Pinfield in 2006 I said I didn't know him, but

10 after that there, that was a mistake on my part. I did

11 know a Jonathan Wright but in 2006 he said

12 Jonathan Wright and I was, like, "Jonathan Wright?" But

13 after that there I realised who Jonathan Wright was.

14 Q. Right. When you were asked in 2006 by the Inquiry team

15 whether you knew Jonathan Wright, why did you say no?

16 A. Because the name just didn't ring a bell to me from

17 1997.

18 Q. Did you never think of Jonathan Wright between 1997 and

19 2006?

20 A. I haven't seen Jonathan Wright. If he walked past me,

21 I probably wouldn't even know him from 1997 to 2006.

22 Q. You didn't see him at a funeral, for instance, where he

23 waved at you after 1997?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You didn't?

1 A. No.

2 Q. That doesn't ring a bell? That's what he has told the

3 Inquiry?

4 A. Well, that's what he has told the Inquiry. I'm telling

5 you I didn't see him at -- a funeral, like? Is there

6 any specific details about this funeral?

7 Q. Tell me this: round about 1997, were you ever in pubs

8 with him or clubs at that time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Never?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Gary's Bar?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Coach Inn?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Was he at the same school as you?

17 A. Killicomaine?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. You remember that all right?

21 A. Three years.

22 Q. So you remember from school?

23 A. As I said, we weren't friends, we weren't mates. It

24 was, like, Killicomaine School, how many people go? 600

25 or 700 people?

1 Q. Tell me, how is it that you were with this person who

2 wasn't your friend or wasn't your mate on the night of

3 26 April 1997? What possessed you to go with this

4 virtual stranger?

5 A. As I say, if we refer back to my original statement, I

6 had left Gary's Bar, walked over the bridge and met

7 these two guys, Jonathan Wright and Marc Hobson, and

8 walked on.

9 Q. Why did you stick with them?

10 A. Because I was on my own. It was just something to do,

11 Saturday night.

12 Q. So it could have been any two people and you just would

13 have fallen into their company and gone with them; is

14 that right?

15 A. No. Well, obviously I knew --

16 Q. You knew them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. But I wouldn't have been friends or wouldn't have been

20 mates, it would have been knew of them. It just was

21 a casual meeting.

22 Q. Did you spend long with them that night?

23 A. Can we get my statement?

24 Q. Yes, page [00559]. You can't recollect this without

25 your statement?

1 A. No, I need it because this is the true account. I'm

2 going to have to give you the true account, so I am.

3 Gary's Bar ... I left the bar at 9 pm. I went to the

4 off-licence, bought a six-pack, walked over to

5 Banbridge, met Marc Hobson and Jonathan Wright, the

6 three of us walked up the town and went to on

7 Dean Johnston's flat and then left the flat roughly

8 1.30/2 am.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: So you remember it was Dean Johnston's flat?

10 A. Sorry?

11 THE CHAIRMAN: You remember it was Dean Johnston's flat, do

12 you?

13 A. Yes, because that's what it says in the statement.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: It is blanked out here, but you remember it

15 from the statement, do you?

16 A. Sorry?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You were looking at the screen just now.

18 MR BERRY: You were asked by Mr --

19 MR McCOMB: Sorry, sir, I think there may be, just looking

20 at that, a slight misunderstanding. May I just have

21 a very quick look just to correct?

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, my fault. I'm entirely wrong.

23 MR McCOMB: Thank you, sir.

24 MR BERRY: You were asked by Mr Pinfield on behalf of the

25 Inquiry during the interview about Marc Hobson and

1 Jonathan Wright. Do you remember that? Yes?

2 A. Yes, from reading through my notes, yes.

3 Q. And you were asked about it on a number of occasions.

4 Now, on any of those occasions was there no memory

5 triggered about knowing Jonathan Wright?

6 A. No, until with retrospect afterwards I was thinking,

7 "Jonathan Wright, Jonathan Wright" and then thought yes,

8 now I know who you are talking about.

9 Q. It didn't trigger your memory when that name was placed

10 together with Marc Hobson's in relation to the events of

11 26 April and 27 April 1997?

12 A. No, because I haven't seen Jonathan Wright from that

13 time. But I would see Marc Hobson passing now and

14 again, once in a blue moon.

15 Q. I see. Tell me, you said that you went to your uncle

16 Thomas; is that right?

17 A. Hm-mm.

18 Q. Hanvey's house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you do that often on a Saturday night?

21 A. Now and again.

22 Q. Now and again?

23 A. There would have been no set pattern.

24 Q. You weren't there every Saturday night, for example?

25 A. No, no, no.

1 Q. You wouldn't tell anyone that you were there every

2 Saturday night. That would be untrue, would it?

3 A. I wouldn't have been there every Saturday night.

4 Q. Therefore, you wouldn't tell anyone that because it

5 would be untrue?

6 A. Why -- could you explain yourself a wee bit better?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a very straightforward question.

8 MR BERRY: Which part of the question do you not understand?

9 A. Why would I tell anyone I was at me uncle Tom's house

10 every Saturday night when it's not true?

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Just answer the question, please, will you.

12 Put your question again.

13 MR BERRY: Which part of this question -- just stop me at

14 any part that you don't understand. Now, would you have

15 any reason to tell someone that you were at your uncle

16 Tom's house every Saturday night if that wasn't the

17 truth?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Therefore, if you did say to someone that you were at

20 your uncle Thomas's house every Saturday night, that

21 would be untrue?

22 A. That would be untrue, yes.

23 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that?

24 A. That I was my uncle Tom's house every Saturday night?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. Not that I can recall.

2 Q. Not that you can recall?

3 A. It is not true, so I wouldn't have said it.

4 Q. Yes. Could I have page [08131] up, please? This is

5 a questionnaire which was taken from you, your details.

6 These documents were issued after the murder of

7 Mr Hamill and a police officer, DS Bradley, a detective

8 sergeant, recorded this information from you. Do you

9 see it? Do you see it?

10 A. Yes, it is on the screen here, yes.

11 Q. Do you remember being asked those questions? Where were

12 you coming from, Dean Johnston's flat?

13 A. I don't recall being asked those questions.

14 Q. Question 2, do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, that's right though, isn't it? That's where you

17 were coming from?

18 A. Yes, from what I said in my original statement.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. That would be correct then, yes.

21 Q. This is on the same date, you see, as your original

22 statement. 7 May 1997, all right?

23 A. Hm-mm.

24 Q. Same officer in your original statement took this

25 questionnaire, the answers from you, I suggest?

1 A. I have no recollection of it, but if that's --

2 Q. Do you disputed its accuracy, Mr Hanvey?

3 A. Hm-mm.

4 Q. You do?

5 A. I have no -- I'm just -- said that there and -- I'm not

6 saying I'm not disputing it.

7 Q. Answer the question.

8 A. The accuracy of what?

9 Q. The questions and answers recorded there, that they are

10 your answers to those questions. Who was with you,

11 question 3:

12 "Marc Hobson, Johnny Wright."

13 Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who else was in the vicinity:

16 Answer: "Marc Hobson, Johnny Wright."

17 Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you see question 5:

20 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so,

21 give details."

22 It says:

23 "The two men were lying on the ground with women

24 treating them when Hanvey arrived, saw a couple of

25 scuffles, fights one-to-one."

1 Is that right?

2 A. If that's what I said at the time, yes.

3 Q. Question 6:

4 "Travelled from Banbridge?

5 "Answer: No."

6 Your clothes at question 7. Have you got

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "Anything else you would like to add?"

12 Question 8:

13 Answer: "I was on my way to my uncle, Tom Hanvey's,

14 house ... where I stay every Saturday night."

15 A. That's a mistake. I wouldn't have said every Saturday

16 night. It would have been a now and again occurrence.

17 Not everybody can be perfect in every way.

18 Q. Did you give the answer recorded at question 8?

19 A. Well, obviously if it was recorded, I must have give the

20 answer.

21 Q. You gave the answer? Why did you give a lying answer?

22 A. I made a mistake.

23 Q. It is a lie, it is untrue?

24 A. It is a mistake.

25 Q. How would you make a mistake where you were there now

1 and again, or you were there every Saturday night?

2 A. It was just a mistake.

3 Q. Why, though?

4 A. Nobody is perfect. Everybody can make a mistake.

5 Q. You can take it from me the third time you said

6 "mistake" I got that. Why did you make the mistake,

7 that's the question?

8 A. I have no idea why I made the mistake.

9 Q. You are singularly well placed to assist us as to why

10 you made the mistake because you gave the answer, didn't

11 you?

12 A. I can't give you an answer as to why I made the mistake.

13 Q. Is there any reason you can assist us with now as to why

14 you would have told a lie?

15 A. No.

16 Q. To Ds Bradley?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, is it the truth or is your subsequent version

19 about now and then staying at Tom Hanvey's the lie?

20 A. I stayed at my uncle Tom's house now and again.

21 Q. Now and again. So this is the lie?

22 A. Yes, and I said it has obviously been a mistake on my

23 part.

24 Q. Did it come easy to you to tell this officer the lie

25 about this?

1 A. I can't remember this discussion.

2 Q. Is this the only lie you have told?

3 A. I gave a full and truthful account.

4 Q. Well, now, how can you tell a truthful account when you

5 have given a lie?

6 A. That was on one separate thing and it was -- I have

7 already said it was a mistake on my account. I state it

8 now again: I didn't stay every Saturday night and I

9 can't even remember this discussion with this officer.

10 Q. This is the statement officer that took your statement.

11 Do you remember? Can you picture the officer's face?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your relationship with

14 Tracey Clarke, Mr Hanvey.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you have described about her statement, that in

17 essence -- if I get this wrong, I will be corrected --

18 but you say that the police put the words in her mouth

19 because they needed a scapegoat, and Andrea McKee

20 assisted in that process?

21 A. Yes, that's my opinion, yes.

22 Q. Yes. And you further indicated that you didn't talk

23 about it with Tracey Clarke when you were reconciled?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But you have basically arrived at that --

1 A. That's my --

2 Q. Yes. That's your view of it without assistance from

3 anyone else?

4 A. Yes, that's my evidence.

5 Q. Yes. Do you know that Tracey Clarke said more or less

6 the same thing to the Inquiry in her interview and in

7 her Inquiry statement, namely that she made the

8 statement because of police pressure and words being put

9 in her mouth and also because Andrea McKee helped her in

10 that regard?

11 A. Am I aware of this?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. No.

14 Q. You are not?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So it is just a coincidence, then, that the two main

17 factors that she says led to her giving the statement on

18 10 May are the two factors that you somehow defined as

19 well; is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's of my opinion, that's the way things

21 happened.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that that's really an incredible

23 coincidence, or else you have remarkable intuition?

24 A. Coincidences happen. That's my opinion of what

25 happened.

1 Q. Okay. I mean, you weren't in the interview room -- is

2 that right -- with Tracey Clarke or Andrea McKee or the

3 police?

4 A. I wasn't in the interview.

5 Q. No, you weren't?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What made you think that the police had put words in her

8 mouth?

9 A. Because really there obviously was a lot of publicity

10 surrounding this case and the police probably weren't

11 seen to be doing too much. So they get an ex-girlfriend

12 of someone, the meet her aunty, they get their stories

13 together, they bring her in. And that's my opinion what

14 happened.

15 Q. You are just the completely unlucky person, you and five

16 others -- you are just completely unfortunate in being

17 chosen, as it were?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And Tracey Clarke, in terms of going to the police, the

22 police managed to track down a victim that they could

23 easily manipulate; is that it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. And you arrived at that view independently of any

1 contact or conversation with Tracey Clarke?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Is that the truth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. What about Andrea McKee? What led you to think

6 that she was part of this grand scheme?

7 A. Well, it wasn't until a much later date that information

8 came out that Andrea McKee had met the police before

9 Tracey Clarke went in to make the statement.

10 Q. Well, now, let's deal with that. Had you fingered

11 Andrea McKee as part of this conspiracy prior to that

12 information?

13 A. Prior to me knowing that information?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No.

16 Q. I thought you had said that you had some moments ago.

17 Maybe I picked that up wrong?

18 A. I think you must have picked it up wrong because I

19 didn't know about this here until a later date.

20 Q. It is probably my fault. Maybe I have difficulty with

21 my memory, but when did you pick up that information in

22 relation to Andrea McKee?

23 A. It must have been whenever -- I can't give you the

24 dates, times, whatever, but through legal paperwork --

25 you know yourself the way it works -- you find out this

1 information.

2 Q. And when you heard it was Andrea McKee, were you

3 surprised?

4 A. Was I surprised? Not particularly.

5 Q. Why was that?

6 A. Because me and Andrea McKee didn't particularly get on.

7 Q. Well, how did that manifest itself?

8 A. How did that manifest itself?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Because I think I said earlier that Andrea McKee would

11 have gloated just in general other people's misfortunes.

12 And me, personally, I didn't -- I did not have much time

13 for that.

14 Q. And what else?

15 A. There is nothing else. Just not everybody in the world

16 gets on. We didn't see pretty much eye to eye. So it

17 didn't really surprise me whenever I found out that she

18 had met the police at a graveyard or whenever she met

19 them to sort this out before Tracey Clarke was brought.

20 Q. So the height of it is her animus towards you is based

21 on the fact that she tended to gloat at other people's

22 misfortunes?

23 A. Yes, she enjoyed to hear people's downfalls and that was

24 just not of my nature. So I just really didn't see eye

25 to eye with her.

1 Q. There is a difference, would you agree, with enjoying

2 other people's downfalls and engineering their

3 downfalls, which is what you seem to be suggesting?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. So she had really gone beyond her normal bad form by

6 engineering it, as far as you were concerned?

7 A. With the police.

8 Q. Yes. And you in particular, because you were the sort

9 of person who didn't gloat on other people's

10 misfortunes, that's why she singled you out?

11 A. We just from pretty much day one didn't see eye to eye.

12 Q. I have asked you for the detail of that and that's the

13 detail you gave us. Is there any more detail you want

14 to give us as to why she would engineer this catastrophe

15 in your life?

16 A. Yes, exactly what it was. I have no idea as to why she

17 went as far as she did and done what she did.

18 Q. You have given us an idea. I have asked, I think, twice

19 now as to why she would have had animus towards you.

20 You have described her particular personality and the

21 only thing that I think you have been able to assist us

22 with about your personality as to why she would single

23 you out is that you didn't gloat at people's

24 misfortunes. Have I got that wrong or have I got that

25 right?

1 A. You got that right. But there is just general -- as you

2 know, not everybody in the world sees eye to eye. Why

3 did she do it? I can't answer you that question.

4 Q. I can give you a short answer. I'm going to put to you

5 that she didn't?

6 A. She didn't meet the police?

7 Q. No, she didn't influence Tracey Clarke, Mr Hanvey,

8 because Tracey Clarke --

9 A. Well, as I said --

10 Q. Let me finish. Because Tracey Clarke told the truth in

11 that statement of 10 May 1997.

12 A. That statement is totally untrue.

13 Q. Now, other than you not gloating at the misfortune of

14 others, is there anything else -- I'm giving you

15 a chance: is there anything else between you and

16 Andrea McKee which would explain why she would engineer

17 this catastrophe in your life?

18 A. We just didn't get on.

19 Q. What else is there by way of an example --

20 A. I can't give you specifics.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. We just didn't get on.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Because it is a long time ago and I have no recollection

25 of specifics. But all I know now is we didn't get on.

1 Q. Is there anything you can add and assist us over and

2 above what you have told us about why you didn't get on?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is there any other reason you can think of that would

5 assist this tribunal in determining why Andrea McKee

6 would help the police to conspire against you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You have said that Andrea McKee despised you. Is that

9 a fair way of putting it?

10 A. Yes. Despised me would be a strong word. Dislike would

11 be a better word. I know I used the word despised in

12 the thing.

13 Q. In what?

14 A. I think it was with Mr Pinfield.

15 Q. You have read that recently?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You know that Andrea McKee received a suspended prison

18 sentence, don't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For perverting the course of justice?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In relation to -- I'll put it as simply as I can and,

23 again, if I get this wrong, I will be corrected --

24 providing cover for the telephone call that you have

25 been referred to?

1 A. Hm-mm.

2 Q. From Robert Atkinson's home to your home at 8.37 on 27 April 1997.

3 You are aware of that?

4 A. That she received --

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. -- a suspended sentence?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you are aware that she provided an account --

10 A. Sorry, for interrupting.

11 Q. Yes, she provided an account which indicated that she

12 and Michael McKee were at Robert Atkinson's home and that

13 Michael McKee made the call in relation to

14 Tracey Clarke?

15 A. How many times -- how many statements will have to be

16 made to reach this conclusion?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Just answer the question.

18 MR BERRY: You just answer the question, would you. We will

19 get along a lot quicker if you do.

20 A. That's okay.

21 Q. Do you want the question again?

22 A. Can you repeat it?

23 Q. Yes. Are you aware that she gave an account that her

24 and Michael McKee were at Robert Atkinson's home and that the

25 telephone call was made by Michael McKee to your home to

1 enquire about Tracey Clarke?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You are aware of that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And are you then aware that she subsequently indicated

6 to police that that was a lie, that --

7 A. Obviously, yes.

8 Q. Yes. And she admitted it was a lie and gave what I'm

9 suggesting is the true account: that Robert Atkinson

10 contacted your home to try and get word to you or warn

11 you to take action to burn clothes because of what you

12 had done in respect of Mr Hamill?

13 A. I know nothing of this phone call.

14 Q. You know nothing of it. Now, would you suggest that

15 Ms McKee, in doing that, which was seeking in a way to

16 get you in trouble, did it out of a sense of spite

17 against you again?

18 A. I have absolutely -- I can't answer for Ms McKee.

19 Q. Well, can you assist us as to what reason there would be

20 for her to say that Robert Atkinson was trying to warn

21 you to burn your clothes or destroy evidence because

22 you were involved in the murder of Mr Hamill?

23 A. I can state now that I was not involved in the murder of

24 Mr Hamill and that I have no knowledge of this phone

25 call and why Andrea McKee done this.

1 Q. You don't know? Well, can I suggest to you it is

2 because she was doing it -- she gave her final account

3 because it was the true account? Can you assist as to

4 why Michael McKee would have gone through a similar

5 process and gone to prison over this account?

6 A. I can't assist you in that.

7 Q. You can't assist. Had he any difficulty with you at

8 all --

9 A. We had a working relationship.

10 Q. Yes. Did he despise you?

11 A. No, no, no.

12 Q. No. Had he any reason to get you in trouble?

13 A. No. Michael McKee was my instructor for several years.

14 We had a working relationship obviously. We spoke. You

15 can't train someone without speaking to hem. We had

16 a fair relationship.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. And I consider Michael McKee to be a very professional

19 martial arts instructor to a point.

20 Q. And no basis at all to seek to get you into trouble in

21 any way?

22 A. Michael McKee?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can I ask you -- it's something that Mr Underwood

1 touched on -- when you saw Andrea McKee in prison, she

2 did visit you, didn't she?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many times?

5 A. So far as I am aware, just the once.

6 Q. Just the once. It wasn't twice?

7 A. 1997, if there's prison records to say this came down

8 twice -- I remember once.

9 Q. Do you know any other Ms McKee's at that time who would

10 have visited you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall a visit on 26 August with your mother and

13 a Mr xxxxxxxxxx. Did you know a Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

14 A. Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. A xxxxxxxxxx.

17 Q. Do you know a Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

18 A. I know a xxxxxxxxxx. My mother visited me on

19 a weekly basis, you know what I mean? So you're saying

20 26 August she visited me, obviously she visited me.

21 Q. I'm suggesting, you see, that this one was a visit with

22 Ms McKee as well, Andrea McKee, your mother and

23 Mr xxxxxxxxxx attending?

24 A. I have no recollection of that.

25 Q. And this was following a visit on 9 August 1997 with

1 Mr McKee and Ms McKee, all right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did --

4 A. There is a prison record to say that Ms McKee visited me

5 with my mother?

6 Q. Could we have page [03061] up, please? Do you see

7 9 August?

8 A. The 9th of the 8th, yes.

9 Q. About halfway down?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could we go over to the next page, please -- oh, sorry

12 it is on that page. I do beg your pardon. 26 August?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yes. I'm sorry I have revealed someone who was

15 redacted. I apologise for that. Did you not say to

16 your mum before the visit on 26 August, "Why are you

17 bringing her down? Sure she despises me"?

18 A. I have no recollection of 26 August 1997. I have no

19 recollection of having a conversation with my mother to

20 say do not be bringing her down.

21 Q. You didn't want to see her, from what you have said.

22 You didn't get on at all. Why would you want to see her

23 when you were in prison?

24 A. Exactly.

25 Q. So once she appeared on 9 August, why not just say,

1 "Don't come back" or if you knew she was coming, why not

2 stop her coming?

3 A. I was in prison. She come down with Michael McKee and

4 two of my fellow students. Why would I sit in the

5 visiting room in a prison and create -- I had enough to

6 deal with myself without creating more --

7 Q. All right. That's the first visit. What about the

8 second visit?

9 A. I can't remember -- I have absolutely no recollection --

10 I had three/four visits a week for six months. You are

11 asking me things here that I can't help you with.

12 Q. Maybe I can. Maybe it is because there was no disorder

13 or disharmony between you and Ms McKee and you were just

14 making that up, Mr Hanvey?

15 A. We just never got on.

16 Q. Did you ever stay at the McKee house with Tracey Clarke?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Never?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Can I suggest to you in fact you did? Tracey Clarke had

21 a room at the house and you would have stayed over?

22 A. That's total rubbish.

23 Q. You were asked about xxxxxxxxxx and Jim Murray; is that

24 right? xxxxxxxxxx, she is another person -- does she

25 have a drink problem or psychiatric problem?

1 A. She has psychiatric problems, quite severe, and physical

2 disabilities.

3 Q. Now, what about Jim Murray? You didn't really have

4 a bad word about him, did you?

5 A. Jim has always pretty much -- Jim was Tracey's

6 stepfather. I would have been in the house. We were

7 polite enough to each other. It is just the way it

8 goes.

9 Q. Do you know that Jim Murray made a statement to police?

10 A. I was made aware of that very recently.

11 Q. Page [17338], please. This is his statement to police

12 in November 2000.

13 A. Hm-mm.

14 Q. Now, picking it up, you will see that Tracey Clarke --

15 this is on 27 April -- he says he heard about an

16 incident on the radio that morning:

17 "Tracey told me --

18 A. Sorry for interrupting, was that made in 2000?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. That's okay.

21 Q. Why are you asking that?

22 A. I was just asking.

23 Q. I know you were just asking, believe you me, I can

24 follow that. Why were you just asking is what I'm

25 asking you?

1 A. It was just a general question.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. It was just a general question.

4 Q. Were you just making chit chat?

5 A. I didn't know when it was made, in 1997 or 2000, and you

6 have answered me now. I'm aware.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: What interest would it have to you when he

8 made it?

9 A. I have no interest.

10 MR BERRY: Well, then, why ask me about it?

11 A. There was no reason.

12 Q. No reason? So just a little bit of chit chat between

13 you and I?

14 A. If that's the way you want to look at it, that's fair

15 enough.

16 Q. Looking down this:

17 "I can recall 27 April 1997 as I remember hearing

18 about an incident on the radio that morning."

19 Do you have that portion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "Tracey told me prior to the radio news about the big

22 fight."

23 Okay:

24 "I remember her sitting on the chair at the kitchen

25 with her back to the back door. That was always her

1 seat. She said they all came back from the Coach and

2 there was a fight. She said a lot ran up to the fight

3 and Allister Hanvey was there. I don't know if Allister

4 went to the Coach, but Tracey saw him in Portadown.

5 Tracey and Allister's relationship was on one day and

6 off the next. I remember the news coming on some time

7 that day, but I can't be sure if Tracey was there when

8 it came on. I remember some time on that day ..."

9 That's the 27th:

10 "... and Tracey saying she didn't want to go out

11 with Allister any more because of what he'd done. I

12 think this was because of the injuries Hamill had.

13 Tracey was saying that Allister was an animal if he had

14 done that to Hamill."

15 Now, there is no police there when this conversation

16 takes place?

17 A. Hm-mm.

18 Q. And there is no Andrea McKee there when that

19 conversation takes place, and it takes place on the

20 morning afterwards. Why would Tracey be saying those

21 things about you to her stepfather?

22 A. I have absolutely no idea. Untrue.

23 Q. You see, you don't have the two planks that you sought

24 to put before the Tribunal about her statement of

25 10 May 1997, namely the police and Andrea McKee there.

1 So could you just do a wee bit more to try and assist us

2 as to why she would say this to her stepfather?

3 A. I have absolutely no idea why she would say this to her

4 stepfather. It was totally untrue.

5 Q. Can I suggest maybe a reason is because it is true?

6 A. I'm telling you it is not -- I'm telling this to the

7 Inquiry here and telling the Inquiry that it is untrue.

8 I can only help as much as I can.

9 Q. Let's go on with this:

10 "I remember one day around that time sitting at the

11 table in the kitchen with Tracey. Tracey was in her

12 Going Places uniform."

13 Do you remember she worked in Going Places?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You don't?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay:

18 "I normally took her into work in Portadown. She

19 said that Allister wanted to take her out for lunch."

20 Do you remember that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. "She said Allister wanted to meet her and he had given

23 her dogs abuse on the phone and pestered her until she

24 gave in and he wanted to talk to her to get it sorted

25 out."

1 Do you remember that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. It doesn't ring any memories at all with you?

4 A. No recollection whatsoever.

5 Q. "I think Tracey confided in someone in Going Places

6 after she had made the statement. The boss in Going

7 Places didn't want the windows broke and asked Tracey

8 to move on."

9 Then continues down:

10 "I remember after Tracey met Allister ..."

11 Can you pick up where there is?

12 A. You have just jumped --

13 Q. Right, the two bits that are blacked out:

14 "I remember after Tracey met Allister for lunch,

15 Tracey said that Allister felt quite proud of what he

16 had done. This was after xxxxxxxxxx had asked her how she

17 got on with Allister."

18 What were you quite proud of?

19 A. I have no recollection of this here. This is nonsense.

20 Q. This is another conversation, strangely enough, where

21 the police aren't there and neither is Andrea McKee?

22 A. This is absolute nonsense.

23 Q. Right:

24 "Tracey also said that Allister said, 'Sure, he was

25 only a Fenian bastard' and that was the type of attitude

1 he had."

2 A. Totally untrue. I'm not a bitter person and never have

3 been.

4 Q. She really must have had it in for you then?

5 A. She must have had.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "Again, some time when I was sitting at the kitchen

9 table with Tracey, Tracey said she went over to the back

10 of the Land Rover to talk to Robert Atkinson. She told them,

11 that's the ones on the street, and Allister to go on and he

12 told Allister to get them clothes burnt."

13 What about that?

14 A. Total lies.

15 Q. "Tracey said she had been sitting on the kerb and Robert

16 Atkinson was by himself at the back of the Land Rover.

17 So she went over to him and that when she heard him

18 telling him to go and telling Allister to burn his clothes."

19 What about that?

20 A. Total nonsense, lies.

21 Q. Just could we go over to page [17340], please. Just

22 could we have the bottom section of that? Just pick it

23 up six lines down, Mr Hanvey. Do you see the sentence

24 beginning:

25 "I also remember, although I don't know exactly

1 when, Tracey said Allister had got rid of clothes and

2 burnt them."

3 What about that?

4 A. Lies, untrue.

5 Q. All lies?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "Tracey had bought him a silver jacket from Paranoid for

8 that Christmas ..."

9 That's 1996:

10 "... and I never saw it after the Hamill incident."

11 Now, what about that?

12 A. Lies.

13 Q. Well, that's Jim Murray. That's not Tracey Clarke.

14 A. It is all just total and utter rubbish.

15 Q. So he has now joined this group that are conspiring to

16 ruin your world, has he?

17 A. That's what it looks like.

18 Q. He was all right ten minutes ago?

19 A. Me and Tracey were apart and I don't know what was

20 going on.

21 Q. So he has joined as well. He has signed up for this

22 group?

23 A. It is looking like it.

24 Q. I thought you told us a few minutes ago --

25 A. I did, we were polite and fine in the house, yes.

1 Q. "The jacket was silver, like anorak material without the

2 lining in it. I remember the jacket had an orange

3 stripe on the sleeves. The jacket only came to his

4 waist and it looked too small for him."

5 Does that help you remember this jacket, Mr Hanvey?

6 A. I never owned a jacket like that.

7 Q. If I haven't done so and if you haven't picked this up,

8 Mr Hanvey, I'm suggesting to you that Andrea McKee

9 played no sinister part in terms of Tracey Clarke's

10 statement, that she went there to support a young girl

11 who was telling the truth to the police on 10 May 1997?

12 A. My opinion is otherwise.

13 MR BERRY: I have nothing further.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Berry, we have been told, though it is not

15 in evidence, that prison visits are, if you like --

16 although they may be asked for, are only allowed with

17 the approval of the inmate. If that's right -- or

18 whichever way, it might be useful to have some evidence

19 from the prison authorities about the practice there.

20 MR BERRY: I think that was something that I think will be

21 addressed, yes. Thank you.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Hanvey, you said that you got to know that

23 Andrea McKee had seen the police before they saw

24 Tracey Clarke --

25 A. Yes.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: -- through the legal paperwork.

2 A. Yes.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be the legal paperwork concerned

4 with the charge of murder against you, I take it?

5 A. It was a period of time after, but I can't give you an

6 exact date or time. I know you are not asking for an

7 exact date or time, but I did find out through legal

8 documents that Andrea McKee had met the police somewhere

9 in Seagoe in or around a graveyard because they actually

10 went to get Tracey to bring her to the police.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: It takes up time unnecessarily if you don't

12 answer the question. Is that paperwork something you

13 saw as a consequence of the charge made against you?

14 A. The charge of murder?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

16 A. I would assume so, yes.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you.

18 Mr McComb, it would be (inaudible) if there is such

19 a document when a search has been made, to produce it.

20 MR McCOMB: Yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

22 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't see that we have the information that

24 is called for yet.

25 MR UNDERWOOD: I think we have got it in manuscript at

1 least.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: So it may be that if we have 10 minutes to

4 change the technology back.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: We will say 15 minutes so that the shorthand

6 writer has a break.

7 (12.30 pm)

8 (Short adjournment)

9 (12.53 pm)

10 (In camera)

11 (1.17 pm)

12 (The short adjournment)

13 (2.20 pm)

14 Questions by MR McGRORY

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

16 MR McGRORY: Yes, thank you, Sir.

17 Mr Hanvey, I think you know that I represent the

18 Hamill family.

19 A. Okay, yes.

20 Q. Mr Hanvey, the ghost of Robert Hamill has haunted you

21 for 13 years; is that correct?

22 A. That is not something I dwell on.

23 Q. You have been haunted for 13 years in a number of

24 respects, I'm going to suggest to you. You have had to

25 live with this since 27 April 1997; isn't that right?

1 A. As I said, Mr McGrory, it is not something I think

2 about.

3 Q. It has intruded in your life in many ways, not least,

4 I'm going to say to you, Mr Hanvey, the fact that you

5 have to live, I'm suggesting to you, with the guilt of

6 Mr Hamill's murder?

7 A. Which I'm not guilty of.

8 Q. Why did you split up with your wife?

9 A. Why did I split up with my wife?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Is that a relevant question to this Inquiry?

12 Q. I'm asking the questions.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: It depends what the answer is.

14 A. Things weren't working out, like --

15 MR McGRORY: Would it be a fair assessment that the strain

16 of this Inquiry has intruded in your relationship?

17 A. Absolutely not.

18 Q. Not in any way whatsoever?

19 A. Not in any way whatsoever.

20 Q. Let's go back 13 years, shall we, Mr Hanvey? You and

21 Tracey Clarke were teenage sweethearts?

22 A. We were seeing each other on and off, yes.

23 Q. A bit more than that?

24 A. We went out, we fell out, we went out, we fell out,

25 pretty much, quite regular.

1 Q. You have her name tattooed on your arm?

2 A. I have.

3 Q. Your left upper arm?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you do that?

6 A. What I was 18.

7 Q. Well, isn't that the sort of thing that teenage

8 sweethearts do?

9 A. Yes, foolishly.

10 Q. You were a teenage sweetheart and it was an on/off sort

11 of relationship?

12 A. Yes, very on/off.

13 Q. You were bedevilled by teenage sweetheart conflict from

14 time to time?

15 A. That would be correct, yes.

16 Q. You see, she was no ordinary teenage sweetheart was she,

17 Mr Hanvey, because you married her?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You had children with her?

20 A. I have two girls, yes.

21 Q. So the relationship endured after the teenage years, did

22 it not?

23 A. There was separation and reconciliation.

24 Q. And in this particular relationship, Mr Hanvey, you and

25 Tracey Clarke had to face a situation which I'm going to

1 suggest to you few couples would ever have to face.

2 That situation was, Mr Hanvey, that the girl that you

3 perhaps loved at the time had cause to witness

4 a terrible, terrible incident. Do you understand me?

5 A. I understand you, yes.

6 Q. She witnessed the murder of a man. Are you disputing

7 that she witnessed the murder of a man?

8 A. My opinion of this here, I have always -- my line has

9 been that I have never had any animosity towards Tracey

10 because I blame the police.

11 Q. That wasn't the question. The question was: do you

12 accept that she witnessed a murder?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So is it your situation then, Mr Hanvey, that she made

15 the entire thing up?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. She didn't see in any way what happened at all to

18 Mr Hamill?

19 A. That's my opinion, yes.

20 Q. How do you know that?

21 A. That's my opinion.

22 Q. I asked you how is it your opinion?

23 A. It is just my opinion.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: What do you base your opinion on?

25 A. What do I base my opinion on?

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

2 A. I base my opinion on the police -- the circumstances

3 that led to the statement being made.

4 Q. And that's still not an answer to the question. The

5 question was that you have said here, Mr Hanvey, that

6 Ms Clarke may well have seen the murder; isn't that

7 correct?

8 A. I said that -- you asked me did I believe that she had

9 witnessed a murder and I said no.

10 Q. So the situation is then that you are saying she has

11 completely invented the fact that she witnessed anything

12 in respect of the murder?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I asked you the question: why do you believe that? Has

15 she told you something about that?

16 A. No. That's just my beliefs, and we all know from 2006,

17 from when this Inquiry started, what was said.

18 Q. Well, are you suggesting, Mr Hanvey, that the woman you

19 married, the woman who is the mother of your children

20 and the woman who made a statement implicating you in

21 a murder, that you and she have never discussed what she

22 actually saw that night?

23 A. Once we got back together after a couple of years or

24 whatever, as I have already stated, it was said it was

25 not to be talked about, look forward, not back.

1 Q. Well, would it not have been the case, Mr Hanvey, that

2 in the process of getting back together with

3 Tracey Clarke you had to confront the fact that she had

4 made a statement implicating you in a murder?

5 A. I have never confronted it, Mr McGrory, because I didn't

6 hold any animosity.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Even before you made things up, you never

8 talked about it?

9 A. No.

10 MR McGRORY: I suggest to you that that is inconceivable.

11 A. I'm telling you the truth.

12 Q. Are you a forgiving person, Mr Hanvey?

13 A. Would you be a forgiving person? Is that quite a vague

14 question or ...?

15 Q. No. You go through life, sometimes people --

16 A. I don't hold grudges.

17 Q. You don't hold grudges?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Sometimes we go through life and somebody does something

20 on you that upsets you; isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes, and you get over it. Some people dwell on it, some

22 people get over it pretty quick.

23 Q. There are some things that are difficult to forgive.

24 Isn't that correct?

25 A. Obviously, yes.

1 Q. Some people do things to you that you just can't get

2 over.

3 A. Not necessarily.

4 Q. Do you not accept that in life some people may do

5 something on you, some perceived wrong on you, and that

6 it ends the relationship?

7 A. No, it didn't end the relationship. I was not with

8 Tracey Clarke when this happened, when the statement was

9 made.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about Tracey Clarke in this question;

11 I'm asking you about in life. Do you accept that

12 someone can do a wrong on you and the wrong is so severe

13 that the relationship can't get over it, Mr Hanvey?

14 A. That depends on the person.

15 Q. Yes, of course.

16 A. It depends on the person.

17 Q. But sometimes it takes a particularly strong act of

18 forgiveness to get over a wrong that is done on you,

19 doesn't it?

20 A. It depends on the circumstances again.

21 Q. And that Tracey Clarke of course did do a wrong on you,

22 didn't she?

23 A. Yes, she did.

24 Q. As you see it?

25 A. Yes. But I didn't blame her for, as I have probably

1 stated several times during the course of my

2 questioning.

3 Q. You see, the wrong that Tracey Clarke did on you was to

4 have cooperated with Andrea McKee in going to the police

5 and inventing a story that you were involved

6 principally -- do you understand that word?

7 A. Principally?

8 Q. Yes, as a key player in the murder of Robert Hamill?

9 A. Yes, I understand that. Total lies.

10 Q. But how do you rate that in the scale of wrongs that

11 somebody could do to a person?

12 A. That would be pretty high up there, wouldn't it.

13 Q. It would?

14 A. It would.

15 Q. Would it rate as highly as an unforgivable wrong?

16 A. No, not necessarily.

17 Q. I'm going to put to you this scenario, Mr Hanvey, where

18 it might be forgivable. Do you understand? It might be

19 forgivable if it is retracted, number 1. Do you

20 understand? If it is withdrawn?

21 A. If it is withdrawn, yes. I understand what you are

22 saying, yes.

23 Q. Would you agree with me it just might be forgivable in

24 those circumstances?

25 A. It could be forgivable in other circumstances on what my

1 viewpoint or what my opinion of the circumstances that

2 arose out of this.

3 Q. You see --

4 A. Or how this came about, this unforgivable, as you were

5 saying, situation.

6 Q. Almost unforgivable?

7 A. Almost unforgivable.

8 Q. Because you did forgive her, you had to forgive her?

9 A. I didn't blame her, so I had nothing to forgive her for.

10 Q. Because the consequences of the initial wrong that

11 Tracey Clarke did on you by telling the police that you

12 were involved in the murder of Robert Hamill could have

13 been potentially very severe?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You could have spent many, many years in prison --

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. -- if she had continued with it and gone to court; isn't

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And that would have been very unforgivable, wouldn't it?

21 A. Pretty much it would be unforgivable, but it didn't go

22 that far because it wasn't true.

23 Q. But that one reason why it just might have been

24 forgivable is that she withdrew, she held back?

25 A. With all due respect, Mr McGrory, I will say it again:

1 I never held any animosity against Tracey. The only

2 animosity I owed against any party of this here is the

3 police.

4 Q. And those lists of prison visits that were shown to you

5 earlier, Mr Hanvey, Tracey Clarke's name doesn't appear?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No. So there was no reconciliation when you were in

8 prison?

9 A. That was for sure. I wasn't with Tracey Clarke whenever

10 I went into prison.

11 Q. You said it took several years before there was

12 a reconciliation?

13 A. It wasn't several years -- well, if we work it out, the

14 dates, my eldest daughter's eight. I would say we were

15 together about a year and a half, a year to a year and

16 a half prior to my oldest daughter being born. So 1997,

17 that would have been nine and a half. It would have

18 been in or around 2000.

19 Q. Are you seriously suggesting, Mr Hanvey, when that time

20 of reconciliation came you and she didn't sit down and

21 look at one another and confront --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- the fact that she had held you in prison for several

24 months?

25 A. No.

1 Q. On what you regarded as a false allegation?

2 A. As I have said, Mr McGrory, look forward, not back.

3 Q. You just picked up where you left off?

4 A. Not picked up where we have left off. Obviously you are

5 building a relationship again. But to build

6 a relationship and try and build a solid relationship

7 you are not going to go back over past history.

8 Q. There is another reason why it just might have been

9 forgivable, Mr Hanvey, and that's if it was originally

10 true?

11 A. No, it was totally false.

12 Q. Because you would have known it was true, she would have

13 known it was true?

14 A. It wasn't true.

15 Q. And that the only wrong she committed on you was to have

16 told it?

17 A. No, it was totally untrue.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: If she did, as you say, she seems to have

19 shown herself as being all too easily led.

20 A. Very much so.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: You would want a strong woman, would you, for

22 the mother of your children?

23 A. Tracey wouldn't be a strong girl, now.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you want a strong woman to be the

25 mother of your children?

1 A. I have no choice now, with all due respect, and she is

2 the mother of my children and you can't pick and choose.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: You can make some judgment before --

4 A. You can make some judgment before, but not everything is

5 planned.

6 MR McGRORY: She is not a strong girl, Mr Hanvey?

7 A. No, she wouldn't be a strong girl at all.

8 Q. She was easily intimidated. Is that what you are

9 saying?

10 A. She was very easily led.

11 Q. Could she be intimidated or bullied into retracting the

12 statement?

13 A. I couldn't answer that question to you, Mr McGrory.

14 Q. By the boy that she loved, Mr Hanvey?

15 A. She certainly wasn't intimidated by me.

16 Q. Was she not?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hanvey, that whenever you did

19 reconcile, what would have been a complete barrier to

20 any reconciliation would have been if she had in fact

21 really invented the fact that you were involved in this

22 murder?

23 A. This is a total fabrication of lies.

24 Q. Because that would have been a wrong one too many, just

25 simply too far, wouldn't it?

1 A. What would? Could you repeat yourself again,

2 Mr McGrory?

3 Q. That the girl you loved, the girl who loved you and the

4 girl you loved, that for her to have completely invented

5 the fact that she had seen you involved in the murder of

6 Robert Hamill --

7 A. But I don't hold her responsible for that.

8 Q. I'm coming back to that. The fact that she had

9 completely invented that would have been an utterly

10 unforgivable wrong?

11 A. Yes. If I had have held Tracey responsible for that,

12 but as I have repeatedly said during this Inquiry, I

13 didn't.

14 Q. You say she had some sort out of body experience or

15 something?

16 A. I'm saying the police concocted this, coerced us with

17 Andrea McKee.

18 Q. So we have the evil Andrea McKee leading her astray; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Well --

21 Q. Put this in her head?

22 A. So far as I'm aware, when Tracey Clarke was spoken first

23 nothing was said. Through a period of time, hearsay

24 this, hearsay that, goes back to her aunty, her aunty

25 meets the police before Tracey has to go back in again.

1 The story is concocted, they arrive at the police

2 station. That is just my opinion.

3 Q. How did you become aware of that?

4 A. Through legal paperwork of Andrea McKee's meeting of the

5 police.

6 Q. The paperwork doesn't say on Tracey Clarke's part at any

7 time, Mr Hanvey, that she was led astray by Andrea McKee

8 to invent the fact that you murdered Robert Hamill?

9 A. I didn't murder Robert Hamill.

10 Q. That's not the question. You have just said that you

11 learnt subsequently that she was led, weak person that

12 she is, into inventing this allegation --

13 A. Hm-mm.

14 Q. -- against you?

15 A. Hm-mm. False allegation.

16 Q. You have just said that you learned it from the papers,

17 but it is not in the papers?

18 A. It is in the papers that Andrea McKee met the police at

19 Seagoe graveyard. How else would I know this

20 information?

21 Q. That's in the papers. But what you said was that the

22 explanation for Tracey Clarke's statement was that she

23 was led astray --

24 A. That is my opinion.

25 Q. Did she tell you that?

1 A. We have never spoke about it.

2 Q. You have already said that and I said it before that

3 that is inconceivable, that has to be a lie?

4 A. That's not a lie. I'm telling you the truth. Why would

5 we speak about it if I never held any animosity towards

6 her? You get a relationship, you want to get it back on

7 track, you want to look forward, not back, as I have

8 already stated.

9 Q. How did she know you held no animosity against her? How

10 did the relationship start again?

11 A. Through a phone call.

12 Q. Who rang who?

13 A. Tracey rang me.

14 Q. Just rang you up?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And she wasn't a bit apprehensive or anything, no?

17 A. She probably was a bit nervous about phoning me but

18 that's her story.

19 Q. What did she say?

20 A. I can't remember, Mr McGrory, it was a long time ago.

21 Q. This was a woman who was a key party to a conspiracy

22 falsely alleging you of being involved in a murder,

23 resulting in you being in prison for a number of months

24 and she rings you up out of the blue after a couple of

25 years, and what does she say?

1 A. We have a conversation.

2 Q. But she doesn't go, "Allister, I'm terribly sorry about

3 that"?

4 A. No. We had a general conversation and we actually met

5 up, we had something to eat, most likely, and talked

6 things slowly and just moved on.

7 Q. Did she ask for your forgiveness?

8 A. No.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Did it require a great deal of humility on

10 your part to accept all this without recrimination?

11 A. Could you sort of --

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know what I mean by humility?

13 A. Humility as in forgiveness?

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

15 A. I have nothing to forgive because, as I said, I did not

16 blame Tracey for this.

17 MR McGRORY: I'm going to move on to different topic. Back

18 in 1997, you have already told us that you were a Tae

19 Kwon Do champion.

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. You would have been extremely fit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You had seven all-Ireland titles?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Eight Ulster titles?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you came second in the world championships in 1995?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. You were something of a star in the Tae Kwon Do world,

5 would you not have been?

6 A. I had competed at that high level. Star? I competed to

7 the highest level.

8 Q. Oh, yes. And that required, as you have already said,

9 a great deal of dedication?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that really the Tae Kwon Do club in Brownstown when

12 it opened in 1996 in the premises it was in when this

13 incident happened, was really the centre of your life;

14 isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But in order to keep up that level of fitness and to

17 keep up that level of achievement, you would have needed

18 to be fairly disciplined in your life, wouldn't you?

19 A. Very much so.

20 Q. No drinking, for example?

21 A. Minimal.

22 Q. Minimal?

23 A. Minimal.

24 Q. And that sometimes in one's teenage years, one is

25 perhaps tempted to go off the rails a bit?

1 A. Of course, yes.

2 Q. Take a bit of drink?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Too much drink?

5 A. Not too much, but just take -- start maybe socialising

6 a bit more.

7 Q. Lose a bit of interest perhaps in your physical fitness?

8 A. Yes, well, my interest waned whenever the club -- my

9 instructor started to be absent. He wasn't dedicated

10 and that was the kingpin of my achievement.

11 Q. We have heard from his ex-wife how he went off the rails

12 by this time. This is Michael McKee?

13 A. Oh, yes. That would -- he went off the rails, not all

14 the time but now and again.

15 Q. So you agree with her about that much?

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 Q. She also suggested that you sort of went off the rails

18 too, Mr Hanvey?

19 A. Up to a point.

20 Q. You dropped off a bit in your attendances and so forth?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you agree with that much?

23 A. Off the rails is a loose term.

24 Q. It is my phrase, yes. She also said that you had quite

25 a reputation that, because of your Tae Kwon Do prowess,

1 that you were somebody not to be messed with?

2 A. I can't understand that.

3 Q. Anybody who had a reputation of being a Tae Kwon Do

4 champion isn't somebody you would pick a fight with?

5 A. Not particularly, no.

6 Q. And it is somebody that would need to be very

7 disciplined about those skills?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That they wouldn't use them in the wrong place and

10 against the wrong people?

11 A. Never used out of the club scenario.

12 Q. Was it second degree black belt you were?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The art of Tae Kwon Do requires someone to have a very

15 high degree of efficiency in kicking and smashing the

16 feet; is that correct?

17 A. Kicking and smashing, that is never a term that I have

18 ever heard described as Tae Kwon Do. Kicking and

19 smashing?

20 Q. In order to get your black belt, aren't you required to

21 become familiar with some Korean terms?

22 A. Oh, yes.

23 Q. Because it is a Korean martial art, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you would have to have been aware that "tae" means

1 to kick or smash with the feet?

2 A. Strike.

3 Q. Strike?

4 A. Smash and strike are --

5 Q. We will not get bogged down in the semantics. And Kwon

6 part of it refers to punching or destroying with the

7 hand or fist?

8 A. Now we are talking about exercises within the gym

9 with -- whatever.

10 Q. And that success in that art the depends upon a high

11 degree of training in the blending of the power and the

12 speed that you can achieve with your hands and your

13 feet?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in the stance that you take when you practise the

16 art?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You see, Andrea McKee said that you had a reputation as

19 someone who might have used your prowess outside of the

20 Tae Kwon Do gym?

21 A. That's a total lie.

22 Q. But is it a lie, is it?

23 A. It is a lie.

24 Q. You see, Mr Hanvey, you haven't had an entirely clean

25 record with the police all of your life, have you?

1 A. No, I fully admit that.

2 Q. Yes. And in fact on at least one occasion that we know

3 of you did punch somebody in the face?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And you were convicted of common assault. Isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Common assault, yes.

8 Q. And the incident was on 24 May 1998?

9 A. If that's the date that you have there are -- I can't

10 remember the date -- it must be correct.

11 Q. That was outside the training and discipline of your

12 art, wasn't it?

13 A. That was outside --

14 MR McCOMB: Perhaps just at this stage my friend might ask

15 what the penalty was.

16 MR McGRORY: Sorry, the penalty was a £45 fine, isn't that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. That was in 1997?

19 A. You told me --

20 Q. Sorry, 1998. That would have been quite a bit of money

21 to you then?

22 A. In 1998, £45? Not particularly, no.

23 Q. What were your wages?

24 A. We discussed this earlier. I worked in Unit Air

25 Plastics -- if you take the three shifts and averaged it

1 out, it was probably £200, £200 per week.

2 Q. It is a good quarter of your wage, isn't it?

3 A. It is not really.

4 Q. Well, let's not concern ourselves with that, Mr Hanvey.

5 The fact is that you punched somebody in the face?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And that was well -- that is seriously frowned upon

8 within the world of Tae Kwon Do, isn't it?

9 A. I have no idea because I wasn't a member of the club at

10 that stage.

11 Q. Mr Hanvey, what I'm talking about here is --

12 A. It is seriously frowned upon, this, within the martial

13 arts fraternity.

14 Q. Well, you are a martial arts expert in 1997?

15 A. Hm-mm.

16 Q. You have been second in the world championships, you

17 have a second degree black belt?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I have suggested to you, and I thought you had

20 agreed, that part of the training and discipline of Tae

21 Kwon Do is that you should be measured about how you use

22 those skills?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Within the ring?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So to speak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that --

4 A. But it also depended on what competition you were

5 fighting in. There were certain competitions -- there

6 was different rules for different competitions. There

7 was full contact competitions, semi-contact

8 competitions. The higher the grade you reached,

9 obviously the higher level of combat -- was achieved.

10 Q. And all of those trained even to a medium degree, never

11 mind the high degree to which you were trained in the

12 martial art of Tae Kwon Do, are taught, Mr Hanvey, never

13 to use those skills outside of the strict confines of

14 controlled combat?

15 A. Yes, and I never did.

16 Q. Well, you did in 1998?

17 A. I punched somebody, but it is like -- if there is

18 a fight in the street, somebody punches somebody,

19 a punch is a punch.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You have made your point, Mr McGrory, we can

21 move on.

22 MR McGRORY: Yes. The other issue here, Mr Hanvey, is that

23 to have got yourself in trouble with the police for an

24 assault in 1998 is some indication towards the fact that

25 you might be going off the rails a bit, isn't it?

1 A. No, this was just one incident.

2 Q. Were you drinking that night?

3 A. I had probably had a few.

4 Q. Would you have had any drugs that night?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you partake in those early years, in 1998/1999/2000,

7 in drugs?

8 A. I would have consumed drugs on occasions, yes.

9 Q. You have a caution in 1998 for possession of cannabis;

10 isn't that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. You have a conviction in 2000 for possession of cannabis

13 again; isn't that correct?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Your house was searched in 2000 in the context of

16 further investigation arising out of this incident.

17 Some drugs were found?

18 A. Some drugs were planted.

19 Q. Some drugs were planted?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who planted them?

22 A. The police.

23 Q. Did that become the subject of any proceedings?

24 A. No, I got a letter from the Department of Public

25 Prosecutions to say that no charges are to be brought

1 for this matter.

2 Q. In whose name was the house at that time?

3 A. It was in my partner's name. The police knew I had

4 a record for cannabis. The police had to get my partner

5 out of the house to plant their surveillance equipment

6 in the house, and they had no reason to arrest Tracey on

7 their say, planted drugs in our house to get her out

8 of it.

9 Q. You were asked earlier today, Mr Hanvey, about a prison

10 officer called Leatham?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember the name even?

13 A. I never heard of him.

14 Q. You never heard of him?

15 A. I never heard of him.

16 Q. Mr Leatham, as you were told, gave evidence to the

17 Inquiry a number of weeks ago about an encounter that he

18 had with you in the Maze prison?

19 A. That's a total and utter lie.

20 Q. The nature of that encounter was he met you and he asked

21 you in robust terms, "Did you do that?" And your answer

22 was you could remember nothing about it?

23 A. That is absolute rubbish.

24 Q. You say you do not know this man at all?

25 A. I don't know this man. If that man walked in this door,

1 I wouldn't know him. I never even heard of the name.

2 Q. Are you aware that he was one of only three office

3 bearers of Michael McKee's Tae Kwon Do club?

4 A. He was what?

5 Q. He was the treasurer of Michael McKee's Tae Kwon Do

6 club?

7 A. I was unaware of that. I don't even know who Mr Leatham

8 is, Mr Trevor Leatham. I have never even heard of him.

9 Q. In fact he frequented the club. He went to the club

10 often, he said, and he knew you through the club?

11 A. He certainly didn't know me. That's a lie.

12 Q. That's a lie?

13 A. That's a lie. Within the confines of the Maze prison,

14 the prison officers just don't ask -- why would a prison

15 officer ask me a question?

16 Q. Because he knew you?

17 A. He didn't know me. It is just a total

18 fabrication, more lies.

19 Q. He says he knew you.

20 A. I don't know who this man is --

21 Q. And in fact, he had a son who practised Tae Kwon Do

22 which brought him to the club first of all. He took him

23 there quite frequently. It wasn't a big place, was it?

24 A. Brownstown?

25 Q. No, the club.

1 A. The club was a big place, yes.

2 Q. But it wasn't huge in these terms. We are not talking

3 hundreds and hundreds of people hanging about the club?

4 A. No.

5 Q. But, you see, you were very involved in the club?

6 A. This was the case with Mr Leatham, whoever he is, and

7 I -- apparently he says that I said this. This was just

8 not brought before now -- brought up before now.

9 Q. Well, I'm raising it with you now.

10 A. Why wasn't that at the time? That sounds to me like

11 a very important thing that he has said.

12 Q. You are not asking the questions.

13 A. I know I'm not asking the questions, with all due

14 respect, but I have no make a point as well.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps you would answer the question that

16 you were asked a minute or two ago by Mr McGrory. Were

17 you very involved with the club?

18 A. I went and I trained.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that quite an involvement.

20 A. Of course, I trained regularly.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what you were asked.

22 A. I trained regular.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: But you didn't know the treasurer or who

24 he was?

25 A. I don't know this man Trevor Leatham. It is just a new

1 name to me.

2 MR McGRORY: He was known as William Trevor Leatham. I

3 don't know which name he would have been known as around

4 the club.

5 A. Total lie.

6 Q. You see, he took up Tae Kwon Do himself. That doesn't

7 ring any bells?

8 A. Not at all.

9 Q. And he also tells us about a conversation he had with

10 police constable Robert Atkinson. Do you know who I'm talking

11 about? Do you want to have a look?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he had this conversation when they were drinking

14 coffee at the club which he frequented and of which he

15 was treasurer, and the conversation was about you and

16 what happened on the night Robert Hamill was killed. Do

17 you understand?

18 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.

19 Q. I think this has been put to you already and I'm not

20 going to dwell on it, but at that time, Robert Atkinson told you

21 that he had seen you that night?

22 A. Hm-mm.

23 Q. And that in his view you were off your head on either

24 drink or drugs. Do you see that? Do you understand

25 that?

1 A. I understand what you are saying, yes.

2 Q. Mr Leatham has told us about that conversation and he

3 was quizzed about that at some length and he said he was

4 100 per cent sure that he had that conversation with

5 reserve constable Robert Atkinson?

6 A. I am 100 per cent sure that I don't know who this man

7 was.

8 Q. Those are --

9 MR MALLON: Mr Chairperson, I have to indicate my client

10 will be disputing this conversation.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That may be. Now is not the time to say

12 that.

13 MR MALLON: As you please, but I wish to go on the record

14 with that.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Please --

16 MR MALLON: I am very much obliged.

17 MR McGRORY: I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hanvey, that this

18 very much ties in with what you told Mr Leatham about

19 what happened that night, but you can remember nothing

20 it about it.

21 A. I didn't speak to Mr Leatham because I don't even know

22 who Mr Leatham is.

23 Q. Isn't it the case that you were off your head on some

24 substance that night?

25 A. No.

100

1 Q. And that maybe you did remember precious little

2 about it?

3 A. That's not correct. I have already gave a full, true

4 account of what happened that night.

5 Q. And perhaps that account isn't perhaps quite as simple

6 as it first looks in that what I'm suggesting to you

7 first of all is that there are those who might say you

8 remembered very well what you did that night and you

9 have lied about it in that statement of 7 May?

10 A. No, that statement is 110 per cent true.

11 Q. It is very possible that you in fact remembered nothing

12 about what happened and that you also lied about it on

13 7 May because you had to make up what happened?

14 A. That's a true account. I went to the police station

15 voluntarily, made the true account of what happened --

16 made a statement of the true account of what happened,

17 and it is there.

18 Q. Now, when you went to the prison and when Mr Leatham

19 encountered you --

20 A. Which is a false allegation.

21 Q. Yes, well, Mr Leatham also said that you went to his

22 superiors by the way and asked that he be removed from

23 duty in that wing while you were there because he didn't

24 want to have to deal with it, encountering you?

25 A. That's lies.

101

1 Q. You also said that he resigned from the club around

2 about this time and the reason why he resigned from the

3 club is that he had heard rumours about drugs?

4 A. That is total rubbish.

5 Q. Now, when he encountered you in the prison, you were in

6 the UVF wing?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And you got there by request?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, is it the case, Mr Hanvey, that you had UVF

11 sympathies?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know what the UVF was and is?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It is a terrorist organisation.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. That specialised, amongst other things, in the murder of

18 Catholics.

19 A. That's correct. If I had have stayed in Hydebank,

20 I probably wouldn't have been sitting here talking to

21 you now, I probably would have been stabbed or

22 something. That was the reason for getting out of it.

23 I received several death threats whilst in it, so my

24 circumstances were where do I go here. I was too young

25 to go to Maghaberry.

102

1 Q. You certainly didn't feel uncomfortable in the UVF wing,

2 did you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't feel uncomfortable about associating yourself

5 with an illegal organisation that killed Catholics?

6 A. No, because I was safe.

7 Q. And did you get help and support from that organisation?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In terms of public support?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Perhaps in terms of putting the screws on any witness

12 who might have led to your conviction?

13 A. Sorry, say that again?

14 Q. In terms of perhaps of putting a bit of pressure on any

15 witness that might be coming up against you in your

16 trial?

17 A. Absolutely not. I was happy enough to be in there

18 because I knew it was safe.

19 Q. You see, when you got out of prison, did you continue to

20 associate with the UVF?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Or those who were involved in the UVF or supported it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Are you sure about that?

25 A. Yes.

103

1 Q. Because some years later there was another investigation

2 in the context of this murder, wasn't there, in terms of

3 an allegation that Robert Atkinson had been involved in concocting

4 a alibi for the phone call?

5 A. Yes, which I know nothing about.

6 Q. But you are aware of that part of the investigation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that investigation, in fact, ended in the collapse

9 of a trial, didn't it?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. You would have followed those proceedings with interest,

12 wouldn't you?

13 A. Obviously.

14 Q. Of course. And the collapse of that trial is another of

15 the reasons why this tribunal is being held?

16 A. Hm-mm.

17 Q. A lot of people are very concerned with the fact that

18 a trial collapsed in strange circumstances.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And there was another investigation mounted by the

21 Police Ombudsman's office after that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You are aware of that, aren't you?

24 A. I was not aware of that, no.

25 Q. Are you not aware of it, Mr Hanvey?

104

1 A. Of a Police Ombudsman's investigation?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No, I'm not aware of it.

4 Q. You might not be aware that it was initiated by the

5 Police Ombudsman, but there was a further investigation

6 after the collapse of that trial, part of which was to

7 plant surveillance devices in certain houses?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you aware of that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was in 2003 and after the collapse of the

12 second trial?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You remember it well, do you not, Mr Hanvey?

15 A. The collapse of the trial?

16 Q. Yes, and of that investigation?

17 A. Of conspiring to pervert the course of justice?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes, I remember it.

20 Q. And the planting of surveillance devices?

21 A. That was planted in my partner's house?

22 Q. That's correct.

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. Was it not your house at the time?

25 A. No.

105

1 Q. You had children?

2 A. One child.

3 Q. And you were living together?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So, you see, when the reconciliation happened and you

6 had a child --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- was there another separation?

9 A. No, no, no, no. I stayed at my parents' house, stayed

10 at Tracey's house. I tried to vary my movements because

11 of the high profile of this case. I wanted to keep

12 myself as safe as possible.

13 Q. So when those surveillance devices were planted in

14 Tracey Clarke's house in 2003, are you saying you didn't

15 live there?

16 A. I spent some nights there and some nights at my parents.

17 Q. Is it not fair to say then that you partly lived there?

18 A. Partly.

19 Q. And you see, they were discovered, those devices,

20 weren't they?

21 A. Yes, they were.

22 Q. Did you discover them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were they?

25 A. Concealed under the stairs with a wire and a microphone

106

1 into the corner of the living room.

2 Q. Had you a tip-off that they were there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How did you find them? Was it an accident?

5 A. A hunch.

6 Q. A hunch?

7 A. Hm-mm.

8 Q. Another hunch --

9 A. A hunch coming from the police planting drugs in the

10 house to get -- why would they need Tracey out of the

11 house? Why would they need her out of the house?

12 That's what I thought. And then I automatically thought

13 they have been up to something.

14 Q. If the police planted those drugs in your house,

15 Mr Hanvey, they did so in 2001; isn't that correct?

16 A. Hm-mm. That's when the surveillance equipment was

17 installed, in 2001.

18 Q. Is that when you found it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you sure about that?

21 A. I'm 110 per cent certain about that.

22 Q. Well, when they were found a police officer was called

23 to the house; isn't that correct?

24 A. No, I found it.

25 Q. You found it?

107

1 A. Located it from pulling the microphone out from the

2 corner of the living room and listening to where the

3 power base of this surveillance equipment was. Heard it

4 was under the stairs, lifted -- the stairs were sealed,

5 lifted the side of the stairs, took out the transmitter

6 and several battery packs and three bits of wood and

7 once it was disconnected the police then came to my

8 house. I didn't call the police. The police weren't

9 called from Tracey's house.

10 Q. We have got a page [80721], please, on the screen. The

11 bottom part of that page. This is a statement from

12 a policeman called H?

13 A. Called who?

14 Q. H we are calling him. Okay, Mr Hanvey?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At the bottom there he says he is called to your house

17 when the surveillance

18 devices are found.

19 Okay? The very bottom few lines, he says --

20 A. Sorry, can I interrupt? That is untrue. They came to

21 my house. They were not called to my house because they

22 knew that I had found them because they couldn't hear

23 any conversation in the house any more obviously because

24 it was disconnected.

25 Q. Right. Are you suggesting that when they were listening

108

1 to what was going on in the house as a result of this

2 device, when all of a sudden they couldn't hear

3 anything, they came round and knocked on the door?

4 A. Yes, within 20 minutes.

5 Q. Within 20 minutes.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Just out of the blue?

8 A. No, not out of the blue. They were obviously listening

9 and knew by what they were listening to that we were

10 looking for it. And once they knew that we had found

11 it, disconnected it, within 20 minutes the police were

12 at the door. The police were not called.

13 Q. Okay. What he says here:

14 "As a result, I was tasked to get them back."

15 A. Yes, he came to the door of the house, knocked the door

16 and asked could he have his surveillance equipment back.

17 And we says, we want written confirmation from the head

18 of this investigation to say that surveillance equipment

19 has been retrieved from this house.

20 So he went away, my solicitor come down and then

21 written confirmation come back to say that surveillance

22 equipment had been removed from xxxxxxxxxx, signed

23 by the head of the investigation and it was handed over.

24 Q. "And at Allister Hanvey's house again I was met by an

25 unhappy family, their solicitors and politicians"?

109

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So had you your solicitor in the house?

3 A. Yes, my solicitor was in the house.

4 Q. Within 20 minutes of finding the device you had

5 a solicitor in the house?

6 A. No, no, no, no, no. Within 20 minutes of the device

7 being found, police were at the house. Now, they

8 obviously didn't get the stuff until I had contacted

9 Richard Monteith and there was several -- it just didn't

10 happen that quick.

11 Q. I'm talking to you about the occasion that this officer

12 called H has an occasion to call to your house to

13 collect the surveillance device?

14 A. Hm-mm.

15 Q. That's not the occasion on which police were there

16 within 20 minutes?

17 A. The first time they came, they asked for it and says --

18 no -- I just blatantly refused.

19 Q. Why?

20 A. Why should I?

21 Q. What did you want with it?

22 A. I wanted legal advice on what to do.

23 Q. Did you want to do a bit of propaganda?

24 A. No, I have never done any propaganda with that.

25 Q. Did you want to talk to the UVF about that?

110

1 A. No.

2 Q. Because when the policeman, H, got your house to collect

3 them, he said there were UVF men in the house?

4 A. More lies from the police.

5 Q. A politician, solicitors and people from the UVF?

6 A. Yes, more lies from the police.

7 Q. More lies?

8 A. Who were these UVF men?

9 Q. He doesn't quite tell us, but it fairly spooked him.

10 A. I am sure it did spook him, spook him conveniently.

11 Q. Let's see what he said about it:

12 "I think the Loyalist paramilitaries in Portadown

13 saw me as 'the face of' the Hamill investigation and

14 blamed me accordingly."

15 This policeman was rightly spooked?

16 A. Conveniently spooked.

17 Q. "I reported those threats and have additional security

18 at my home."

19 A. The police have told some lies, I can tell you.

20 Q. "And obviously it caused my family and myself a lot of

21 stress and worry."

22 A. I am sure it did.

23 Q. Are you still insisting you had nothing to do with the

24 UVF?

25 A. One hundred and ten per cent. I have had nothing to do with any

111

1 Loyalist paramilitaries. I'm not a bigot, I'm not bitter in any

2 one way. You don't know, Mr McGrory my circle of friends, you

3 don't know who I socialise with, who I work with and I can tell

4 you now that I have Catholic friends. Now, would that tie in with

5 me being a Loyalist bigot with UVF and LVF men in my partner's house?

6 Q. Who exactly did you have in the house? You said you had

7 a solicitor there?

8 A. My solicitor was there.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. Richard Monteith.

11 Q. Who was the politician?

12 A. xxxxxxxx

13 Q. What party is he with?

14 A. The DUP, I think, or else independent. I'm not sure.

15 Q. That's all right. And this policeman said there were

16 people associated with the paramilitaries in your house.

17 So who else was there?

18 A. My mother and my father.

19 Q. And nobody else associated with the paramilitaries?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That so spooked this policeman --

22 A. I'm sure.

23 Q. -- he was afraid for his life?

24 A. Conveniently spooked him to fabricate more lies.

25 Q. Now, let's get back to the night of 26/27 April. You

112

1 have said you didn't go to the party in Tracy McAlpine's

2 house; isn't that correct?

3 A. That's what it says in my statement, yes. That's

4 correct.

5 Q. Mr Underwood has already spoken to you about this and

6 I'm not going to take too long with this, Mr Hanvey.

7 A. That's okay.

8 Q. But there were quite a number of people put you at the

9 party?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Eight in total, Mr Hanvey?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Eight people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have they all lied?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Every single one of them?

18 A. Every single one of them.

19 Q. That's Tracey Clarke, obviously?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Iain Carville?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Jason McClure?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Christopher Henderson?

113

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Kelly Lavery?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Stephen Bloomer?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Pauline Newell?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. She lied about you being at the party?

9 A. I told you my statement was a full and true account of

10 what happened that night. I was at my uncle Tom's

11 house.

12 Q. In that list of prison visits that we saw earlier when

13 Mr Berry was talking to you, there was somebody called

14 Newell who visited you. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that Pauline Newell?

17 A. That would be correct, yes.

18 Q. She visited you eight times?

19 A. She possibly did.

20 Q. Eight times around June or July of 1998 before you were

21 released?

22 A. June or July of 1998.

23 Q. Of 1997, Mr Hanvey?

24 A. I wasn't released --

25 Q. Whenever you were in prison, Mr Hanvey --

114

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- she visited you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Eight or nine times?

5 A. Yes, it is a possibility it was that number of times,

6 yes.

7 Q. She is clearly a friend of yours?

8 A. I haven't seen her from 1997.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Was she a friend of yours at that time?

10 A. I would have known her, yes.

11 MR McGRORY: Were you going out with her?

12 A. No, I wasn't going out with her.

13 Q. She visited you seven or eight times. She was a good

14 friend then?

15 A. The circumstances of the visitors in the Maze was, you

16 know, if you were -- we all had our visits at the same

17 times, so everybody sort of knew each other. So you

18 could have went from one visiting table to the other

19 visiting table. Nothing was restricted.

20 Q. Why would this girl who lied about you being at her

21 house the night Robert Hamill was killed be visiting you

22 in prison if she had made up a lie about you?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. Of course at this point you didn't know she had said you

25 were at the party, sure you didn't?

115

1 A. I have no idea.

2 Q. Because you never got any case papers because you got

3 released. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, I was released, yes.

5 Q. I'm suggesting to you that she and all of those,

6 Mr Hanvey, were telling the truth for some reason or

7 another in the concoction of your story?

8 A. It is not a concoction.

9 Q. To escape responsibility for the murder of

10 Robert Hamill?

11 A. I did not murder Robert Hamill.

12 Q. You removed yourself from that social gathering of young

13 people in Tracy McAlpine's house?

14 A. I have not murdered Robert Hamill. I have give a full

15 and true account and assisted this tribunal to the best

16 of my ability.

17 Q. I'm suggesting that you concocted the fact that --

18 THE CHAIRMAN: He has dealt with that several times already.

19 MR McGRORY: I just want to ask you before I finish about

20 the reserve constable, Robert Atkinson. Robert Atkinson

21 now had a strong association with the Tae Kwon Do club.

22 Do you accept that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were not only the star of the club, but as you

25 say, once Michael McKee started to go off the rails, you

116

1 were sort of taking over?

2 A. It wasn't that I was taking over. Michael McKee's wife

3 was still there and I would have been requested to take

4 the odd class. As I said, there were a couple of other

5 senior black belts. It wasn't that I was taking over

6 the club by any stretch of the imagination.

7 Q. Did you not sort of proudly tell another counsel

8 earlier, Mr Hanvey, that you were sort of taking over

9 there and doing it bit of teaching?

10 A. I didn't proudly say that. I was just helping out.

11 There was no pride or prowess in it.

12 Q. You see, we have evidence that in fact Robert Atkinson was very

13 close to Michael McKee, that they were best friends?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that in fact he used his goodwill with

16 Bobby Jameson, who owned the building, to secure the

17 premises?

18 A. Which I know nothing about.

19 Q. And he was the other office bearer as a sort of

20 committee member of the club along with Mr Leatham whom

21 you say you didn't know, and Michael McKee. Would you

22 have known that?

23 A. I was a young lad. What responsibility would I have in

24 the club only to do to the best of my ability and to win

25 things.

117

1 Q. Mr Hanvey, we have evidence that he sort of helped

2 Michael McKee out in a lot of ways. He did the books

3 for him, for example?

4 A. I'm aware of that. I had nothing to do with it. I went

5 to the club -- what would I want to go into an office

6 for at my age? I wanted to go and train.

7 Q. And of course his wife and your father actually worked

8 together -- this is Robert Atkinson -- at the Electricity Board?

9 A. I'm aware of that now, but I wasn't aware of that.

10 Q. And that she was down around the Tae Kwon Do club quite

11 a lot because they had a daughter or a son -- I can't

12 remember -- who was, as you have heard, quite proficient

13 in Tae Kwon Do?

14 A. A daughter.

15 Q. She was good?

16 A. Yes, she was very good.

17 Q. So her and her husband would have been about the club

18 very frequently, I'm suggesting to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And of course his best friend Michael McKee was an uncle

21 by marriage of Tracey Clarke?

22 MR MALLON: With respect, Mr McGrory is making vast

23 assumptions. It is not accepted they were best friends.

24 He has made this allegation twice and there is no

25 basic --

118

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Didn't Ms McKee say something about the

2 friendship between the two men?

3 MR MALLON: Yes. Not best friends, and my client does not

4 accept best friends.

5 MR McGRORY: Whatever about the terminology, Mr Hanvey, this

6 was a pretty small circle, wasn't it?

7 A. It was just a pretty small club.

8 MR McGRORY: No. It was a small circle, those who were in

9 the sort of upper echelons of the club.

10 A. I wasn't. I was the senior member. I had nothing to do

11 with any -- I went, trained, stayed after and went home.

12 Q. I suggest to you that is not in fact true, Mr Hanvey?

13 A. It's the truth. I wasn't even old enough to drive so I

14 would have been left off, arranged with my mother and

15 father to pick me up outside the club. Normally, as

16 I said earlier on, I stayed on to do extra training

17 after the official classes were over.

18 Q. Tell me more about Robert Atkinson. Would he have had

19 gingery grey-ish hair?

20 A. I can't remember now.

21 Q. Just think back?

22 A. I'm thinking back. I can't remember now what colour it

23 was or if he even had any hair.

24 Q. Or a moustache?

25 A. I have no idea.

119

1 Q. What height would he have been, five foot ten?

2 A. You are asking me questions about a man 12 years ago,

3 Mr McGrory. I can't answer you.

4 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hanvey, you knew Robert

5 Atkinson pretty well?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You see, you have said you knew him to see at least;

8 isn't that correct?

9 A. Of course I knew him to see.

10 Q. If you knew him to see, what did he look like?

11 A. I can't remember 12 years on.

12 Q. No recollection whatsoever what he looked at?

13 A. Not 12 years ago.

14 Q. Can I have page [00561] on the screen, please? You will

15 be glad to know I won't be very much longer, Mr Hanvey.

16 A. That's okay.

17 Q. This is your statement on 7 May, Mr Hanvey.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What we call in legal terms an exculpatory statement.

20 This is the statement that you made that said you had

21 nothing to do with the murder of Robert Hamill?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And you described being approached by a policeman. Do

24 you see that?

25 A. Yes.

120

1 Q. You said you didn't know his name?

2 A. Hm-mm.

3 Q. And you said he asked you to help move some of the

4 people back up towards the church out of the way?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that you did that, you obliged?

7 A. If that's what it says there whenever I made that

8 statement 12 years ago, it must be true.

9 Q. Being a law-abiding citizen you were making yourself out

10 to be?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And the policeman was in his mid 40s?

13 A. If that's what it says there, it must be true.

14 Q. Would that have described Robert Atkinson?

15 A. I have no idea.

16 Q. That he was five foot ten? No idea?

17 A. No idea.

18 Q. Stocky build?

19 A. Are you asking me --

20 Q. I'm asking you did that describe the man you knew to see

21 as Robert Atkinson?

22 A. No.

23 Q. That he had gingery grey-ish hair?

24 A. I can't remember what Robert Atkinson looked like 12 years ago.

25 Q. That he had a moustache?

121

1 A. I have no idea.

2 Q. You said:

3 "I just knew from seeing him in the town."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You see, that was reserve constable Robert Atkinson,

6 I'm suggesting to you?

7 A. Right, I have no idea.

8 Q. Because he described meeting you in the town?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Do you understand, Mr Hanvey?

11 A. I understand, but I have no idea.

12 Q. What you were doing in that passage in your statement

13 was setting up an alibi. Do you understand me?

14 A. Oh, I understand what you are saying, but it is wrong.

15 Q. You were setting it up, Mr Hanvey, that if Robert Atkinson

16 was asked did he see you in the town, he would say

17 something good about you?

18 A. But earlier on you said to me I was high on drink and

19 drugs and couldn't remember anything, so now you have me

20 setting up an alibi whilst high on drink or drugs?

21 Q. You see, that's what he told Mr Leatham?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. At the time you made your statement on 7 May you had

24 been in pretty close contact with Robert Atkinson?

25 A. Wrong.

122

1 Q. He had already phoned you to tell you to burn your

2 clothes?

3 A. Totally false.

4 Q. Which I suggest you had done by then?

5 A. Totally false.

6 Q. And that you thought you would just squeeze a bit more

7 out of it, Mr Hanvey?

8 A. Untrue.

9 Q. And you thought you would --

10 A. Totally untrue, false allegations.

11 Q. And that if he was going to go so far as to tell you how

12 to burn your clothe, you'd a pretty safe bet in putting

13 him in the frame as someone who would verify that you

14 were there?

15 A. It is totally untrue.

16 Q. And you did it again on 10 May, three days later, when

17 you were arrested, didn't you? You repeated it on

18 10 May?

19 A. If it is in the statement, that's -- everything you are

20 accusing me of is totally untrue.

21 Q. The other person, ironically, that you mentioned on

22 10 May as somebody who saw you was Tracey Clarke?

23 A. Somebody who saw me?

24 Q. On the night.

25 A. On the night?

123

1 Q. Was Tracey Clarke.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Because on 10 May when you were arrested, it hadn't

4 occurred to you that she was the one who had pinpointed

5 you as the murderer of Robert Hamill?

6 A. At that time.

7 Q. On 10 May.

8 A. On 10 May. I have no recollection of 10 May 1997 so I

9 can't tell you what my thoughts were.

10 Q. I'm suggesting what your thoughts were.

11 A. You are suggesting that.

12 Q. It sort of backfired because she was the one who had the

13 courage, the courage, on 9 May 1997 to tell the police

14 that she had seen you murder somebody?

15 A. Untrue. I never murdered anybody.

16 Q. And that weak and easily-led person that you say she is,

17 she was bullied and cajoled and persuaded by you?

18 A. By me, no. By the police.

19 Q. To drop the charges?

20 A. No, totally untrue.

21 Q. To drop the charges?

22 A. Totally false.

23 Q. She went to Mr Gordon Kerr QC on 17 October and she told

24 him that she loved you?

25 A. Hm-mm.

124

1 Q. And that's why you forgave her, Mr Hanvey?

2 A. That's totally untrue. I never held any animosity.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McComb?

4 Questions by MR McCOMB

5 MR McCOMB: Really just a couple of very small matters for

6 clarification.

7 In relation to the issue arising with the planting

8 of material, it was -- I think it is on the record,

9 sir -- perhaps it could just be brought up very quickly.

10 I think it is [57775]. If you could be shown that.

11 While we are looking for that, your evidence was, I

12 think, that the house -- was that Tracey Clarke's house?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. You may not be aware of this -- are you aware that

15 proceedings were brought by Tracey against the

16 Chief Constable?

17 A. Oh, yes.

18 Q. I see. And did those relate -- it is patent from the

19 papers, sir -- to --

20 A. Planting both of the drugs and of the surveillance

21 equipment.

22 Q. I won't dwell on that any further. I think at the

23 moment the position is that that case is pending until

24 the conclusion of this Inquiry, as I understand it?

25 A. Yes.

125

1 Q. And do you recall on the night of 26th? Refresh your

2 memory, if you wish, from your statement. Had you been

3 at the Coach Inn that night?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And I think it was Jonathan Wright and Marc Hobson said

6 that you had been in that company that night?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Was that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Was there a flat belonging to Dean Johnston which you

11 would have gone to?

12 A. Now and again, yes, but that's where we ended up that

13 night.

14 Q. Had you taken any dope?

15 A. Just a few beers.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter arising --

17 MR McCOMB: I do apologise, just one other matter.

18 My friend Mr Berry asked you about two visits by

19 Andrea McKee. Is there another Ms McKee? Is that

20 a xxxxxxxxxx, as I understand?

21 A. That's right. That is my mother's sister.

22 Q. She is your aunt?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. A different person altogether to Andrea.

25 A. A totally different personality, yes.

126

1 Q. You may not recall --

2 A. I don't recall the visits because we had several visits

3 each week.

4 Q. If xxxxxxxxxx had been coming down, might she and your

5 mother have come together?

6 A. They are like that. My mother and my aunt xxxxxxxxxx are

7 extremely close.

8 Q. Would that have been more likely --

9 A. I would say it was more likely -- with her sister.

10 MR McCOMB: Thank you.

11 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Have I got this right, that in April 2001 you

13 would spend some nights at Tracey Clarke's place and

14 some nights at your parents' place?

15 A. I always did vary my movements because I feared for my

16 life because of the high profile of this case.

17 Q. Did you have a bedroom at your parent's place?

18 A. Of course I have.

19 Q. To yourself?

20 A. Possibly my big brother was still there -- yes, my three

21 brothers were there. One with my older brother, yes.

22 Q. Did you own a silver-blue Adidas tracksuit top then?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. Did you have a framed poster of the UVF?

25 A. Did I have a framed poster of the UVF?

127

1 Q. Hm-mm.

2 A. Was this before --

3 Q. 10 April 2001.

4 A. 10 April 2001? Yes, that was painted in the Maze prison

5 by a prisoner who done a perspex of their badge with the

6 names of the six people that were arrested, yes.

7 Q. And you kept it?

8 A. I wasn't going to throw it in the bin. Somebody had

9 gone out of their way to do it, so I kept it.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: You can go now, thank you.

12 A. Okay.

13 MR MALLON: Mr Chairman, in relation to the interjection

14 that I made, I would seek your guidance.

15 When I found allegations had been made as fact,

16 matters which are in dispute, would you indicate to me

17 when is the proper time to bring that objection that

18 I have to the Tribunal's attention?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Generally speaking, when the evidence is

20 called; that is to say the evidence which shows it is in

21 dispute is called.

22 MR MALLON: Yes, the problem with that is that that would go

23 into the record and may not be redacted. Under certain

24 circumstances, I had hoped, as Mr Underwood has done,

25 that the balance of the conversation would be put in,

128

1 that it is not accepted.

2 Now, I think that that onus is on counsel,

3 Mr McGrory, to do that, not to assert as a fact a thing

4 which is in dispute. But I would then hope that the

5 Chair would intervene and that I would only be asked to

6 intervene as a very last resort because I do not like

7 interrupting the proceedings and I feel that a grave

8 injustice has been done to my client by allowing that

9 type of material to go without the balance that it is

10 not an accepted conversation, and that that is extremely

11 unfair.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mallon, it is quite impossible to have

13 every question accompanied which says something which

14 may be in dispute, to have some interjection to say that

15 this is in dispute.

16 I am afraid that's not how things can work. As

17 I say, you will have your opportunity -- your client

18 will be able to give his evidence, and there it is.

19 MR MALLON: I would like my view of the matter to go on to

20 the record. I'm very much obliged to you. I mean, no

21 offence to the Tribunal.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: It's on the record now, but it will not cause

23 me to say every time there is a dispute about something

24 that is put, that I will allow an interjection by legal

25 representatives and that should be understood.

129

1 MR MALLON: Indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: No others have done it.

3 I see the time. You have got another witness,

4 I gather. I hope fairly short.

5 MR ADAIR: I should mention that there is an application

6 that I have to make as well, sir. I don't think it will

7 be very long, but just for timewise it will take 10 or

8 15 minutes, and I'm asking that it be heard in private,

9 so there will be another while setting that up.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I just say the witness was here all day

11 Wednesday --

12 MR ADAIR: I'm happy that he is called. I'm just letting

13 you know.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We shall try and delight you, but we will

15 hear your application after the adjournment.

16 MR ADAIR: You are one of the first, may I say.

17 (3.30 pm)

18 (Short adjournment)

19 (3.45 pm)

20 MR KENNETH MILLIGAN (sworn)

21 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

22 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood. Can you give us your

23 full names, please?

24 A. Kenneth David Milligan.

25 Q. Can you look at page [81347] on the screen, please. If

130

1 we flick through the three pages of that. Is that

2 a statement which you have now signed in fact?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it true?

5 A. From my knowledge.

6 Q. Thank you. You refer to some documents in it and I just

7 want to show you those briefly. Look at page [08109].

8 This is a questionnaire which was taken from you on

9 29 April 1997, and if we look about a third of the way

10 down the page, there is Q2:

11 "Where were you coming from?

12 Answer: "In Cecil Street, Armagh Bridge,

13 Armagh Road, Jervis Street and Craigavon Avenue. 9 pm

14 - 6 am in Lee Stockdale's house."

15 Was that true?

16 A. I think so.

17 Q. If we then look at page [51059], you were interviewed by

18 a police officer and here you explain, if we look at the

19 first main paragraph:

20 "He relates that he went to Lee Stockdale's home ..."

21 And gives the address:

22 "... at about 7 pm on Saturday, 26 April. Also

23 there were Lee Stockdale and xxxxxxxxxx. They drank and

24 listened to music until about 12 midnight when the three

25 of them left the house and walked to Connaught Park and

131

1 on to the Armagh road. A policewoman spoke to them on

2 the Armagh road and told them not to be making noise as

3 there was elderly residents in that area."

4 Go down a paragraph:

5 "On leaving there they walked along Armagh Road to

6 the Esso garage and then to Jervis Street. They

7 remained in the Jervis Street/Craigavon Avenue all night

8 until after dawn, talking. Also in their company during

9 the evening were Lisa Hobson [and some others] and

10 Noelle Moore. A police patrol stopped with them after

11 dawn and enquired who they were and what they were doing

12 and if they had been down the town earlier. Milligan

13 can't remember when he heard about the Hamill incident

14 or from whom."

15 There you were telling the police that in fact you

16 had been wandering around the town basically all night

17 and were asked by a police patrol after dawn what you

18 were doing out. Does that ring any bells?

19 A. I can't really remember, like. I can remember talking

20 to the police that night.

21 Q. If we look at page [06363], this is a statement by

22 a police officer, we are calling him Constable Cooke, and

23 on the first page of that he is describing a fight: people

24 hysterical, shouting and screaming, broken glass,

25 shouting and jeering to the police. And then over the

132

1 page [06364], picking this up from the top:

2 "Other police also arrived at the scene around this

3 time."

4 He says in the first line or two:

5 "I approached the crowd along with other police and

6 started to move them back towards West Street.

7 I recognised the following persons at the front of the

8 crowd."

9 And he describes a number of people there. If we go

10 about two thirds of the way down:

11 "I also saw a male person in the crowd ..."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "... wearing a grey Umbro sweatshirt, fawn trousers and

15 back and white trainers, a female with long, dark curly

16 hair wearing a black jacket and black trousers, and a

17 girl wearing a grey Adidas top and purple denims. I later

18 spoke to these persons at 5.50 am and identified them

19 as Kenneth Milligan, ... Lisa Hobson ... and Noelle Moore."

20 What this officer is saying is that in this crowd,

21 which is jeering, smashing glass, trying to get at

22 Catholics, causing a riot, there are you are and he

23 identifies you at 5.50 in the morning together with

24 Lisa Hobson and Noelle Moore and you were with those,

25 weren't you?

133

1 A. I was with Lee Stockdale and xxxxxxxxxx.

2 Q. Did you see the fighting?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you in a crowd that was jeering at the police?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you see police officers controlling a riot?

7 A. No.

8 Q. If we go back to your statement at page [81347], the

9 final paragraph on that page, you say:

10 "In 1997 I was living in Portadown with my mother.

11 Lee Stockdale was my best friend and I had known him for

12 about four or five years. I also knew xxxxxxxxxx. I

13 knew Lisa Hobson because she was friends with my

14 girlfriend. I do not remember if I saw her on the night

15 of 26 and 27 April. Mark Hobson used to drink with us

16 sometimes but he was not a friend."

17 Just take the top paragraph on this:

18 "I knew Allister Hanvey, Stacey Bridgett, Lee Mahood

19 and Wayne Lunt but I did not like them because they used

20 to pick on me and my mates."

21 Can you tell us more about this crowd picking on you

22 and your mates?

23 A. It wasn't Allister Hanvey.

24 Q. Stacey Bridgett?

25 A. No, it was Lee Mahood, now, and Wayne Lunt.

134

1 Q. You see, when you were interviewed by the Inquiry, what

2 you said in terms was Stacey Bridgett and friends of his

3 used to beat the hell out of you?

4 A. No, it was Lee Mahood.

5 Q. Can I put this proposition to you and see what you say

6 about it. The proposition is this: you were in the

7 thick of it on the night of 26 and 27 April when people

8 were kicking Robert Hamill to death, and you saw amongst

9 other people Allister Hanvey, Stacey Bridgett in that,

10 and because at least Stacey Bridgett had a habit of

11 beating the hell out of you, you haven't told the police

12 about it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you won't tell us about it?

15 A. I wasn't there. I was not there.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you.

17 MR FERGUSON: No questions, sir.

18 MR ADAIR: No questions.

19 MR McGRORY: No questions.

20 MR MALLON: No questions.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: It is fair to say there is nothing arising

22 out of that.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You can go now.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

135

1 Now we will have your application.

2 MR ADAIR: I think it should be heard in private. That's

3 what I mentioned earlier on. I'm sorry that takes a few

4 minutes to set up.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Never mind, I shall deal with it simply

6 myself.

7 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir.

8 (3.53 pm)

9 (Short adjournment)

10 (4.00 pm)

11 (In camera)

12 (4.05 pm)

13 (The Inquiry adjourned until Wednesday, 18 March at

14 10.30 am)

136

1 I N D E X

2
MR ALLISTER HANVEY (continued) ................... 1
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD (continued) ........ 1
4
Questions by MR O'HARE ....................... 19
5
Questions by MR MALLON ....................... 22
6
Questions by MR BERRY ....................... 37
7
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 72
8
Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 125
9
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 127
10
MR KENNETH MILLIGAN (sworn) ...................... 130
11
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 130
12

137

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 13th March 2009, day 28