Transcripts
Return to the list of transcripts
Transcript
Hearing: 20th February 2009, day 20
Click here to download the LiveNote version
- - - - - - - - - -
PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
- - - - - - - - - -
Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Friday, 20th February 2009
commencing at 10.00 am
Day 20
1 Friday, 20th February 2009
2 (10.00 am)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (10.15 am)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, sir. Simon McNally, please.
6 MR SIMON McNALLY (sworn)
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr McNally.
9 A. Hiya.
10 Q. My name is Underwood and I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
11 I will be asking some questions to start with. It is
12 possible at the end of that other people may have
13 a few questions for you as well.
14 Can I ask you to look at page [80949], please?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Just forgive me one moment.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Before I take you to that, can I ask you your
17 full name.
18 A. It is Simon McNally.
19 Q. If we look at this document, which is five pages long --
20 we can scroll through the five pages -- is that your
21 witness statement?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Is it true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. I think you were 14 in 1997. Is that right?
1
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You have made a statement to the police before this,
3 which we see at page [09160]. Let's have a look at
4 that, if we may. This tells us that on 21st May 1997
5 you made this statement to Mr Williamson. In it you say
6 that you were with some friends on the night of
7 26th April into the morning of 27th April 1997. The
8 friends you were with you identify there: P44 is
9 Gareth Cust I can tell you. So Gareth Cust, Kyle Woods,
10 and P51, who is Andrew Hill -- is that right? Were you
11 with those?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. You were listening to music in the shed at the back of
14 the house it tells us there.
15 If we pick this up about a quarter of the way down
16 and highlight it from there, you tell us -- you told the
17 police there that you had gone off for something to eat
18 and walked on into the town. P51, that is Andrew Hill,
19 got separated from you at about the footbridge.
20 Gareth Cust, you and Kyle -- that's Kyle Woods -- walked
21 along West Street into Mandeville Street and got on to
22 Church Street. Then you walked down to the church.
23 What you told the police there was:
24 "I could see a crowd of people in the town walking
25 up towards the church. They were somewhere near the
2
1 Alliance & Leicester branch where a police Land Rover
2 was. I could see people near the Land Rover and the
3 Land Rover doors were open. We knew we shouldn't have
4 been there, so we walked into West Street heading back
5 in the direction of home."
6 Then you walked into your mum and walked up home,
7 you say.
8 Now, was that accurate, that statement?
9 A. To the best of my ability, yes.
10 Q. Uh-huh. Can we have a look at page [09133]? This is
11 a statement which Kyle Woods made on 28th May 1997. He
12 starts off by saying he was with you and Andrew Hill and
13 Gareth Cust. About 1.20, he left your house to go to
14 the Chinese. Andrew Hill got separated. Then he says
15 about five or six lines down:
16 "There was some commotion in the centre of town, so
17 Gareth Cust, Simon and I walked down towards the church.
18 We walked down West Street, then up the wee lane at the
19 back of the church, and then turned left and walked down
20 towards the centre of the town, but stopped when we
21 reached the front of the church. We didn't go any
22 further than that. I saw a crowd of people in the
23 centre of the town. There was a police Land Rover at
24 the Alliance & Leicester and a crowd coming up towards
25 it from the bottom of the town. There were people
3
1 standing at the Land Rover talking to the policemen.
2 There was a boy. He was fat and he was shouting
3 'Tiocfaidh ar la'. I don't really remember what
4 happened next, but I do recall seeing two people lying
5 on the ground at about Eastwoods and the crowd punching
6 and kicking at them. I also heard glass breaking but
7 I didn't see anyone throwing any bottles."
8 Over the page [09134]:
9 "I saw police trying to push the crowd back. The
10 atmosphere was very intense and I didn't want to be
11 there."
12 He then says you started to walk out of town and met
13 your mother.
14 So he, one of the lads you were with, sees the crowd
15 of people coming up towards the Land Rover, somebody
16 shouting, two people lying on the ground with people in
17 the crowd punching and kicking at them, glass breaking,
18 police trying to push the crowd back and a very intense
19 atmosphere which made him not want to be there.
20 Why don't you tell us what you saw?
21 A. I just seen a crowd of people standing about and I seen
22 the police Land Rover at the left-hand side of the town,
23 and that was it.
24 Q. It is inconceivable that your friend, who was with you,
25 could have seen all this and you not see it?
4
1 A. I just seen a crowd of people. It must have been 15 or
2 20 people, maybe more. I don't know.
3 Q. No glass breaking?
4 A. No, I didn't, no.
5 Q. No police pushing people back?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No very intense atmosphere that frightened you.
8 A. Well, it did frighten me a bit, just the crowd of
9 people.
10 Q. Nobody being kicked or punched on the ground?
11 A. I didn't see any of that.
12 Q. Discuss it?
13 A. Pardon?
14 Q. Did you discuss it with him, with Kyle Woods?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you just wandered back, did you, not even mentioning
17 it?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why don't you tell us what you saw?
20 A. Just a crowd of people, 15 or 20 people in the town.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Was Kyle Woods a friend of yours?
22 A. He was, yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: At the time, would you have trusted him?
24 A. Probably would have, yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: How could he see these things if you didn't?
5
1 A. I didn't.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Just think about it, will you? How could he
3 see these things if you didn't?
4 A. I don't know.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's have a look at page [09162], can we?
6 This is Gareth Cust's statement on 18th May 1997. He
7 explains that he is at your house, Kyle Woods, he and
8 Andrew Hill were there with you:
9 "At about 1.00 am we went down to the Chinese at
10 Jervis Street. We got something to eat and stayed about
11 it for a while. While we were there we heard sirens.
12 The sound was coming from the town centre. We walked
13 down past McGowan Buildings to see what was happening.
14 I saw a police Land Rover or police car with its lights
15 flashing and an ambulance."
16 That's what happened, isn't it? What drew you down
17 the town was the sirens.
18 A. I don't remember hearing sirens. At this point, I don't
19 remember hearing them at all.
20 Q. You were a 14 year old boy out at 1 o'clock at night
21 with your mates, one of whom tells police he hears
22 sirens which draw you all into town, another of the
23 mates tells the police that he saw people being kicked
24 and punched on the ground, saw police pushing people
25 back. Are you really expecting the Panel to believe you
6
1 didn't see any of this?
2 A. I didn't. I just seen the crowd of people.
3 Q. Then let's have a look at page [06925], please. This is
4 the police interview of somebody called Wayne Lunt. Do
5 you know him?
6 A. I do, yes.
7 Q. Did you know him in 1997?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He was picked up because the police thought he was
10 acting aggressively on the night and put in the back of
11 a Land Rover. He was later arrested for murder. He was
12 interviewed. This is his interview. If we take it from
13 the top:
14 Answer: "I forgot to mention one other person that
15 I met when I was on my way down, a wee fella called
16 Simon McNally."
17 Question: "Whenever you were walking down the
18 street towards the crowd?"
19 Answer: "No, whenever I went down into the town
20 centre."
21 Question: "With all the girls?"
22 Answer: "Yes."
23 Question: "At what point? Where was he?"
24 Answer: "I forget where he was standing, but
25 I remember meeting him."
7
1 Question: "Where's he from?"
2 There is an answer to that:
3 "... and he was also with me when I was arrested."
4 Is this why you are not telling us the truth; that
5 you were right in the middle of it with Wayne Lunt when
6 he was picked up?
7 A. No. I would have been arrested too, probably, if I was
8 with him.
9 Q. Let's have a look at paragraph 24 of your statement,
10 which we find on page [80953]. You say there:
11 "I have also been asked about various people who are
12 connected with this and I can say that at the time
13 I knew Wayne Lunt, Dean Forbes, Stacey Bridgett,
14 Marc Hobson, Allister Hanvey and Timothy Jameson.
15 However, I am positive that I did not see any of them in
16 the town centre that night."
17 Now, this Inquiry has seen statements from two
18 people who say that Dean Forbes, Stacey Bridgett,
19 Marc Hobson, Allister Hanvey were involved in the
20 kicking and punching.
21 Is that what you are hiding from us?
22 A. No, I am not hiding anything.
23 Q. The Inquiry has also seen evidence that people who were
24 standing by the open Land Rover door when this all
25 started were Dean Forbes and Stacey Bridgett.
8
1 You told us you saw the Land Rover door open. Are
2 you telling us you didn't see Dean Forbes and
3 Stacey Bridgett there?
4 A. I didn't, no.
5 Q. Why aren't you telling us the truth?
6 A. I am telling the truth.
7 Q. Why do you have a solicitor?
8 A. Because this is all new to me. I have never been in
9 a place like this or anything. I am just a wee bit
10 nervous, you know.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. Right.
12 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
14 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
15 MR ADAIR: I just have a few questions to ask you,
16 Mr McNally.
17 Do you understand that we have all moved on since
18 1997? Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes, I do, yes.
20 Q. Do you understand that it is important that both the
21 police officers who are under a cloud in this case and
22 the Hamill family particularly, who want to know what
23 happened to Robert -- do you understand it is important
24 that we try to find out?
25 A. Yes, I do.
9
1 Q. Do you understand that?
2 A. I do, yes.
3 Q. Now, whatever your reasons might have been back then for
4 giving this statement, would you at least think about it
5 now and tell us what you saw without naming names.
6 Would you just think about it now and tell us what
7 you -- I am not asking for names. Do you understand me?
8 A. Yes, I do, yes.
9 Q. Now, you saw what happened here. We all know that,
10 Mr McNally. You saw it. Do you understand me?
11 A. I understand you, yes.
12 Q. Now, we are 12 years on. Just tell us what happened.
13 A. All I can remember is just seeing a crowd of people in
14 the town.
15 MR ADAIR: All right.
16 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA
17 MR McKENNA: On this night, if we go to your statement at
18 [09160], I think about the second line in there you are
19 saying you came into the house before 1.00 am on Sunday
20 morning to ask your mother for permission to go to the
21 Chinese restaurant. Isn't that what you say in that
22 statement to the police?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your mother, in fact, in her statement at [09639] says
25 about a quarter of the way that at approximately
10
1 12.30 am you came into the house.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You go into town and then you say you stand at the
5 church. You saw a crowd of people and effectively you
6 come back home. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In fact, your mother says at the bottom of her statement
9 that it was around -- just after 1.00 am she decided to
10 go and look for you. She saw you outside Intersport,
11 shouted, "Are you ready?" and you went home. Is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if we turn to Kyle Woods' statement, which is at
15 [09133], you see about the third line down he says that,
16 in fact, you went to the Chinese at 1.20, which, given
17 the time taken to walk from your house down into the
18 centre of Portadown, puts you in or around the centre of
19 Portadown, let's say, at 1.30, 1.45.
20 A. I can't remember times. I just know it was between 1.00
21 and 2.00.
22 Q. Now Gareth Cust, of course, in his statement, he says he
23 is with you throughout this, as is Kyle Woods. Is that
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
11
1 Q. He sees ambulances in the town centre. In fact, I think
2 the tenor of his statement is that he is attracted to
3 the town centre by the sound of the sirens.
4 In fact, it is true you didn't go to the Chinese
5 restaurant at all.
6 A. No, we didn't.
7 Q. It was straight on into the town centre --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- because that's where the attraction was. Isn't that
10 right?
11 A. I didn't hear no sirens or anything.
12 Q. We know from the evidence of the ambulance personnel
13 that, in fact, the ambulance didn't leave the hospital
14 until 1.50 in the morning. So it was well after
15 1 o'clock before you headed into Portadown, wasn't it,
16 Mr McNally?
17 A. I am not too sure. Between 1.00 and 2.00, that's all
18 I remember.
19 Q. You are not telling the truth about that.
20 A. I am telling the truth. I can hardly remember what
21 I did last month. That's being honest.
22 Q. When you were making your statement to police in
23 May 1997, who was with you? You were 14.
24 A. I think my mum was.
25 Q. Yes. She, of course, says that you are back at home
12
1 some time shortly after 1 o'clock and, therefore,
2 couldn't possibly have been in the town centre when this
3 was happening. Isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, if we go to the statement of Wayne Lunt, one of
6 those arrested on the night and subsequently, at
7 [80711], I think at paragraph 27, you will see there he
8 says, recalling his interview -- he is reminded about
9 his first interview:
10 "When I was leaving, after I'd left the Land Rover",
11 this was after he had been arrested and then
12 subsequently released again, "Simon McNally's mum walked
13 up the road with me to the Chinese."
14 A. I don't recall that.
15 Q. Well, you wouldn't. He is saying he saw your mother
16 when he was out of the Land Rover. So she was in the
17 town --
18 A. Definitely not.
19 Q. -- after he was released.
20 A. Definitely not.
21 Q. Some considerable time after this incident happened or
22 started certainly.
23 Now isn't it the fact, Mr McNally, that you were
24 there throughout?
25 A. I wasn't.
13
1 Q. You were asked during your interview, and, in fact, it
2 is in your statement, whether you knew certain of the
3 personalities involved on the night who were
4 subsequently arrested. You agreed that you knew them:
5 Wayne Lunt, Dean Forbes, Stacey Bridgett, Marc Hobson,
6 Allister Hanvey, all identified as being there, people
7 that you knew.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You, in fact, saw them there on that night, didn't you?
10 A. I didn't.
11 Q. You saw what they did.
12 A. I didn't.
13 Q. Is it fear that's preventing you giving your evidence?
14 A. No, nothing. I'm telling the truth as best I can, what
15 I can remember.
16 Q. This is a very important matter. We are dealing with
17 a public Inquiry into a man's death and the
18 circumstances surrounding it.
19 A. I know. It is no joke. I know that.
20 MR McKENNA: It is certainly no joke, Mr McNally. Thank
21 you.
22 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
23 MR McCOMB: No questions.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising.
25
14
1 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one thing. That night, there was
3 nothing wrong with your hearing?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Or your sight?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Yes.
8 You are free to go. Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Peter Maile, please.
11 MR PETER ROYSTON MAILE (sworn)
12 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Maile.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. We have met before, because you videoed the Land Rover
16 when we repositioned it some while ago and took some
17 shots for me?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry, in
20 case you have forgotten. I have some questions for you
21 based on a statement you very kindly put together for us
22 recently.
23 Because we have done this very recently, we have not
24 managed to put page numbers on the screen for this
25 statement, but I think it can come up on screen
15
1 nonetheless. If we can just scroll through the half
2 a dozen pages of this and see if I can identify whether
3 it is your statement.
4 A. Yes, that appears to be my statement.
5 Q. I think you have signed it now. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you very much. The reason we are asking you to
10 give evidence is to do with photographs which you took
11 and to get the recollection we can get from you, if any,
12 about what else you could see when you took photographs
13 from a flat above Jamesons Bar.
14 A separate matter that I want to ask you about is
15 some further photographs that have just come to light
16 about another flat further down Thomas Street.
17 Can I deal, first of all, with the home of
18 William Jones and Carol Ann Woods where you took
19 photographs, as you tell us in your statement in
20 paragraph 3?
21 Before I do that, can I just formally identify
22 page [00743]? Is that a statement you made on
23 10th June 1997 about photographing that flat?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. It is difficult to say with the name blanked out,
16
1 I imagine. Thank you.
2 I want to run through those photographs with you and
3 ask you to tell us as much as you can remember about the
4 situation in that flat. If we start at page [01043],
5 the index showing the positions, and then if we go to
6 [01044], these were all taken, I think, with a film
7 camera?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. These are the windows which you were told people had
10 looked out of, I think, the night of the incident.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. What was the purpose of you going to take these
13 photographs?
14 A. To show where they were, where they stood and a view
15 from the windows down to the road junction which is to
16 the right as you are looking at that window.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say where they were and where they
18 stood, that's the people in the flat, is it?
19 A. That's correct, sir.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: In paragraph 17 of your statement you tell us
21 that you did, in fact, take photographs of the two
22 occupants standing by the window in the position they
23 told you they were at.
24 A. Yes, I photographed them individually. I believe the
25 male was on the left and the female on the right. They
17
1 stated they had stood together and I took a third
2 photograph of them stood side by side at the window.
3 They subsequently asked that those photographs not be
4 used.
5 Q. We do not have access to them for that reason. Is that
6 your understanding?
7 A. As far as I know, yes.
8 Q. Can you help us with your recollection about where they
9 were standing when you took the photographs?
10 A. My recollection is the male stood on the left. That was
11 the window which later became fully open. The female
12 stood on the right. That would be my recollection
13 today.
14 Q. When they stood together in the position they told you
15 they had been together, were they on the left or the
16 right, if you can recall?
17 A. There was one at each window.
18 Q. Oh, I see. Then if we look at [01045], please, this is
19 one of those windows that opens either top out or
20 sideways, I think.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. There it is just slightly ajar. Then, if we go to
23 [01046], how far back could this window go?
24 A. If my memory is correct, it actually opens so it would
25 be parallel to the edge of the whole window frame.
18
1 Q. More or less flat back to the wall?
2 A. Flat back to the wall, yes.
3 Q. Then if we go to [01047], this is looking out of that
4 window, is it?
5 A. It is a view with the camera. I had great difficulty
6 that evening in how to photograph this junction. They
7 were two people standing that far apart. One had looked
8 through the glass. One had looked -- stated he had
9 actually put his head out the window. The great
10 difficulty was, when I put the camera up to the -- can
11 we go back to the photograph?
12 When I put the camera to the glass, the camera,
13 unlike a person's head where you can move the head and
14 move the eyes and you have all sorts of positions you
15 can get your vision in, is fixed. The lens doesn't tilt
16 to the camera body or things like that. When I first
17 positioned it, I was actually getting a photograph which
18 had in it the right-hand wall and the window frame and
19 very little of the outside, so what I had to do was open
20 the window, and I cannot remember whether I put the
21 camera to the left of the centre of the windows or the
22 right of the centre of the windows, but it was very
23 close to the centre in a position which would have
24 averaged out the two views of those two people in the
25 direction I was told, which was down to the roadway at
19
1 the junction. If we can go back to the other
2 photograph.
3 Q. [01047]?
4 A. Yes. I was told that the area of interest was based
5 between the double white lines where the cars come to
6 a stop and the centre of the dual-carriageway, for want
7 of a better word.
8 Q. Uh-huh?
9 A. That was where I took that view. That view represents
10 a general view from that window. What each individual
11 would have seen could be different to what the camera
12 saw and it could be better or it could be worse.
13 Q. In fact, at paragraph 18 of your statement -- we don't
14 need to look at it at the moment -- you tell us you
15 could look straight down on the street by putting your
16 head out the window.
17 A. If you looked out the window, you could look near enough
18 straight down as well, yes.
19 Q. Could you get a better view round to the right if you
20 leaned your head out, or
21 not, or can't you help with that?
22 A. I don't think so, because the Jamesons sign and the Harp
23 sign are there. You would have to lean quite a way out -
24 dangerously - to see.
25 What I can say, if we can go back to the windows,
20
1 please, is that only the person who had his head out the
2 left-hand window would be able to see along the wall.
3 The person stood at the right-hand window looking
4 through the glass would not be able to see directly that
5 way, because they wouldn't --
6 Q. To the right?
7 A. To the right. They wouldn't be able to see directly
8 along the wall of the buildings. They would have to
9 have their head out the window to do that.
10 Q. Right. Then if we go to --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me. Just looking at the previous
12 photograph, where we can see -- can we go back one
13 photograph -- perhaps we should be going forward -- the
14 one looking out of the window.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: [01047], I think.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The sign "Jameson", that's Jamesons bar?
17 A. That's correct, sir.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: So there is a good deal of foreshortening in
19 this photograph. It seems to be much closer to the
20 junction than, in fact, one would be.
21 A. It was taken with a 50 mm lens on a 35 mm film camera,
22 which has always been taken across the diagonal of the
23 photograph to be a person -- as near as a camera can get
24 to a person's vision.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.
21
1 A. It is an angle of 47 degrees across the diagonal, which,
2 when a person looks and focuses, like I am looking on
3 those two objects, what you would call your normal sight,
4 somewhere somebody has decided is about 47 degrees.
5 You have your other vision where the doctor usually
6 uses a pencil and moves it round until you can't see it
7 so he can check you have your wide-angle vision. So
8 a 35 mm camera -- film camera, I have to say, not
9 a digital one, a film camera with a 50 mm lens on it
10 gives, as far as it is humanly possible, across the
11 diagonal of the photograph, because the lens makes
12 a round image --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
14 A. -- your normal vision.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we have a look at [01048]? Can you
16 identify from this which windows you were looking out of
17 there?
18 A. As far as I can remember, it is the one with the
19 curtains open fully back from where we had just ...
20 Q. I think we can do a screen shot of this and let us mark
21 on it. If you would bear with us for a minute. If you
22 have a pen there, which I think there might be on the
23 table --
24 A. This?
25 Q. -- would you mind marking for us on there?
22
1 A. My recollection would be that it is that one.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: The one above the double doors?
3 A. Yes, sir. That's my -- it is a long time ago, but that
4 is my recollection, sir.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: We will give that a number 1 for the purpose
6 of the record.
7 As I said, the other matter I wanted to ask you
8 about was some extra photographs you took subsequently.
9 If we can get you to look, please, at page [74591], is
10 this a statement you made in January 2003, on
11 10th January?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I think what happened here was that the investigation
14 carried on. There is a detective constable -- an acting
15 detective inspector, as he then was, whom we are calling
16 H, who asked you to take some more photographs. I will
17 string all this together when we call that gentleman,
18 but the place he asked you to photograph was the
19 building belonging -- or the flat belonging to somebody
20 we have called P42. Having waded through all those, can
21 I get you to have a look at the photographs?
22 We can start with page [74567]. Is this one of the
23 photographs you took?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you help us with where we are and what we are
23
1 looking at here?
2 A. We are in the same street I took the other photographs
3 from, further up the street back from the main
4 Portadown Street -- shopping street.
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 A. We are slightly at an angle to it, because there's
7 a bend in the road. That is a photograph out of
8 a bedroom window of a flat looking down towards the road
9 junction.
10 Q. We see, on the right-hand, a car parked, a silver or
11 pale-coloured car anyway.
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Is that outside Jamesons?
14 A. It is -- yes, it is. It is on the edge of Jamesons, the
15 near edge of Jamesons, yes.
16 Q. Okay. It is taken at a rakishly artist's angle. Was
17 there some difficulty in getting a view out of there?
18 A. Yes, there was.
19 Q. What was that about?
20 A. I had to do it through the window.
21 Q. Was it a very small window or what?
22 A. Small panes, yes, if my memory is correct.
23 Q. Then, if we look at [74568].
24 A. That's out the other window, as far as I can
25 recollect --
24
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- giving a -- if you looked at that building, the first
3 photograph looking at the building would be the window
4 to the right and this one would be the window to the
5 left. As you can see, it is slightly nearer the
6 junction.
7 Q. Perhaps it might be helpful if I move on through the
8 photographs to show the outside view of it. [74569].
9 That's just the front door, I think.
10 A. That is the front door.
11 Q. [74570]?
12 A. That is the bell push on the door.
13 Q. I bet it didn't look quite like that.
14 A. No, it didn't.
15 Q. [74572], is that the building?
16 A. Yes, that's the building. I can't remember which window
17 is which. That is the buildings, yes.
18 Q. So there is quite some angle, is there, to look out?
19 A. Yes, there was. We couldn't -- if I remember right, the
20 windows couldn't be opened like they were in the other
21 one.
22 Q. Do you think it is one of the upper floor ones, looking
23 through the top pane then?
24 A. I can't remember. I am sorry. I can't remember which
25 floor it was.
25
1 THE CHAIRMAN: The front door is one of those three doors
2 there we see in that photograph, is it?
3 A. Yes, it is. I believe it is the one above the old shop.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: You have some internal views. Perhaps we
5 could just have a quick look through those. [74574].
6 If we scroll through these just in case there is
7 anything that helps you about them. [74575]. Is that
8 one of the windows at [74575]?
9 A. I believe it is. Can I look at the others again,
10 please?
11 Q. Of course. Let's scroll through them.
12 A. Scroll through them. [74576], [74577], [74578],
13 [74579], [74580], [74581], [74582], [74583], [74584],
14 [74585], [74586], [74587], [74588], [74589].
15 Q. I think that's it.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The windows, we see, are all looking out on
17 to Thomas Street?
18 A. Yes. Can I have a look at my statement for those
19 photographs? I've got it in my pocket.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes, of course, you can look at the hard copy
21 if you want.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: One of the windows had a round arch at the
23 top. I wonder, if we look at the photograph of the
24 houses, if we may be able to identify that.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. [74571] might help us, or not.
26
1 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: It is the top floor,
2 looking at the size of the window pane.
3 A. Yes, I think it is the top floor. I am sorry about
4 this. My recollection is not clear on this.
5 Q. There must have been windows at the back, presumably.
6 A. I think there was. We actually entered the building
7 from the rear, if my memory is correct.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we just look at the one with the arch
9 again.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Back in the run at [74577] or so, I think.
11 If we just scroll forward through these, there is
12 an arch there.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: There is one which gives us a rather better
14 picture of the arch earlier than this. There.
15 A. That arch, sir, I believe to be at the back of the
16 property. I might be wrong. I believe that is the rear
17 of the building and the staircase was at the rear of the
18 building.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: If it is a window in one of those houses in
20 the photograph, it must be at the rear.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Good. That's extremely helpful of you,
23 Mr Maile. Thank you very much. Other people may have
24 some more questions for you. That concludes mine.
25
27
1 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON.
2 MR FERGUSON: Just one matter, Mr Maile. In paragraph 17 of
3 your statement to the Inquiry you say about taking:
4 "... further photographs which have not been
5 produced, which showed William Terence Jones and
6 Carol Ann Jones standing at the window in the same
7 position as they were on 27th April ... As far as
8 I remember, the couple withdrew consent for these
9 pictures to be used."
10 Can you remember what reason, if any, they gave for
11 that?
12 A. I believe they believed their life was in danger. They
13 didn't wish to be identified.
14 Q. Did they say that to you at the time?
15 A. No. They didn't -- I only met these people on the
16 occasion I was in the flat. This was communicated to
17 me, and I believe -- I am trying very hard to get this
18 right -- I believe it was at the time I printed copies
19 of photographs when an inquest file was being prepared,
20 and at that stage I was asked to remove the photographs
21 of the people, as they had withdrawn their consent. It
22 was me who asked them to stand at the window. They
23 didn't have to. They did it voluntarily that night,
24 because in instances like this it is far easier, years
25 down the line in a court room when somebody is asked
28
1 where they have stood, if there is a photograph of them
2 standing there and it shows. That evening, they quite
3 willingly did this.
4 Q. Yes. So subsequently --
5 A. Subsequently, when I was asked to print, I think it was
6 photographs for an inquest file, I was asked to take out
7 the photographs showing them, as they were afraid of
8 being identified.
9 Q. You were told this by some police officer?
10 A. A police officer who was ordering the photographs.
11 Q. I see.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you still have the negatives?
13 A. The negatives should still be with the rest of the
14 negatives in the police archives, yes.
15 MR FERGUSON: They would have possession of those?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They should have possession of those?
18 A. They should do, yes.
19 MR FERGUSON: Okay. Thank you.
20 MR ADAIR: No questions.
21 Cross-examination by MR MCKENNA
22 MR McKENNA: Thank you, sir. Just two brief matters,
23 Mr Maile, if I may. If I could turn to photograph
24 [01046], you see there that shows the picture of these
25 windows with the left-hand window opened inward. Can
29
1 you recall, Mr Maile, whether these windows opened
2 outward?
3 A. I don't think so. If you look at the window frames, it
4 would be impossible for them to open outwards.
5 Q. Yes. It would appear that -- certainly at the bottom
6 right-hand corner of that photograph there appears to be
7 a locking mechanism, and then there is a frame down the
8 middle of the windows. So there are two windows, one on
9 each side. Therefore, it would be impossible, in your
10 recollection, for them to be opened outward?
11 A. I would say so, yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: The inner part of the window plainly goes
13 against the centre post.
14 MR McKENNA: It would appear so. Thank you, Mr Maile.
15 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
16 MR McCOMB: No questions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, we are able to link the
18 photographs from the window above Jamesons from other
19 evidence we have or shall hear?
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Will it become clear later with which witness
22 the other windows are connected? I don't ask at this
23 stage.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: It is P42, a gentleman who was given
25 anonymity after a hearing here. I will link it formally
30
1 by calling DCI H. Eventually, somebody will come with
2 a real name. DCI H will give evidence about asking
3 Mr Maile to take those photographs.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: It might be helpful, I think, if we have
5 perhaps an enlargement to show where that building is on
6 Thomas Street.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. That will be done.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Unless there is anything else for Mr Maile.
10 Thank you very much. It is very kind of you to come.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Lisa Hobson, please.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I doubt whether it will be necessary for any
15 one of us to look at the photographs of the couple
16 standing at the window, but, if it is, there can be
17 discussions about this and I am sure any difficulties
18 can be resolved.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite. They can perhaps be asked when they
20 attend to give evidence.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: I am told the next witness has three lawyers.
23 They are asking for a ten-minute break.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a luxury.
25 (11.00 am)
31
1 (A short break)
2 (11.10 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Lisa Hobson, please.
4 MS LISA HOBSON (affirmed)
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Ms Hobson.
7 A. Morning.
8 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry. It
9 is my task to ask you questions to start with. It may
10 be, when I am finished, some other people will have some
11 questions for you too.
12 I think you know what we are concerned with here is
13 what happened in the early hours of 27th April 1997.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. I know there has been a lot of police activity about
16 this and that has been directed towards prosecuting
17 people. We are not concerned with that at all. All we
18 are interested in is what the police did and what the
19 police saw, and, in particular, whether the police got
20 out of the Land Rover when they could have helped
21 Mr Hamill, and, if they didn't, why they didn't.
22 So what we are doing is calling everybody who was
23 around the town centre on the night to see if they can
24 help us in particular with what they saw the police
25 doing.
32
1 Now, there are a number of documents I want to show
2 you. You have kindly signed a statement for the
3 Inquiry, but can I get you to look at a map, first of
4 all? The one we see on the screen here has, going more
5 or less from left to right, West Street leading into
6 Market Street going up into High Street. I think in the
7 early hours of 27th April you were coming up from the
8 West Street area. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If we look at a model, we can see, if we swing this
11 round, we have reconstructed the town centre on the
12 night as it was. This is on the corner of
13 Thomas Street. We are just about to be looking down
14 Thomas Street, past Jamesons there, to the
15 British Legion area. This is Eastwoods. Looking back
16 up, pausing it there for a minute, we see the church.
17 Up on the right-hand side, we see West Street.
18 Then if we go round further, we can see a Land Rover
19 parked there. I just wanted to show you those to
20 re-familiarise yourself with the area. Obviously, shops
21 have changed.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, if we can go back now and have a look at
24 page [81553], I think this is the first page of
25 a statement you signed, but what I want you to do is
33
1 have a look, please, quite briefly at it as we flick
2 through it, seven pages of it. Is that the statement
3 you kindly signed for us on 30th December last year?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, if I take you back to the first page, [81553], you
8 tell us in paragraph 3 that you were 16 in 1997. Is
9 that right?
10 A. I was 15, 16.
11 Q. Sorry?
12 A. I was 15, coming 16, I think.
13 Q. Then in paragraph 3 you refer to a questionnaire which
14 was the first of a number of contacts you had with the
15 police. This was completed as quickly after the events
16 as 29th April. Can we have a quick look at that? It is
17 at page [08107].
18 What's going on here is we know the police wanted to
19 get in touch with as many people as they could about who
20 might have been in the area so they could take
21 statements from people. They went round armed with this
22 questionnaire which had questions typed on it and blanks
23 for the answers. If anybody gave them answers, they
24 wrote them in. They were then typed up, and this is the
25 one for you.
34
1 If we see:
2 "Q2. Where were you coming from?
3 "Coming from Coach, Banbridge."
4 You have subsequently explained you didn't want to
5 have it known you were out with some friends drinking.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that to keep it from your mum?
9 A. No. My dad had just told me to stay out of town.
10 Q. All right. Then, if we go over the page -- I am sorry,
11 I should take it from the bottom of this. The final
12 line there:
13 "Q5. Did you see an assault in Market Street? If
14 so, give details."
15 What you say there is:
16 "Seen scuffling with crowds and police."
17 If we look at question 8, after, "Is there anything
18 else you would like to add?" you volunteer this:
19 "Seen a person lying outside Eastwoods clothes shop.
20 Girlfriend or someone with him. This was around
21 2.00 am.
22 "Persons visible description."
23 That's just you. So you volunteer to the police at
24 that stage that you saw scuffling and so on and that you
25 saw a person on the ground.
35
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Now, if we go back to the model, please -- sorry to chop
3 you around -- can you help us -- we can move this
4 around, if you like, as you have seen -- with where you
5 saw the person on the ground?
6 A. It would have been over here just where Eastwoods was.
7 Q. We can actually get you to mark it on the screen, if
8 that's all right.
9 A. Oh, sorry.
10 Q. Don't worry. We have to set it up for you. It will
11 take us a few seconds, then you can write on the screen.
12 Right. Okay.
13 A. Oh, sorry.
14 Q. Don't worry.
15 A. Sort of over here.
16 Q. Okay. You think that's outside -- that's roughly
17 outside Eastwoods?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We will call that location 1. Can you remember what
20 that person was wearing?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You think there was somebody, a girl with him?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. You see we have a police Land Rover there?
25 A. (Witness nods).
36
1 Q. Doing the best you can, do you remember whether there
2 was one on the night?
3 A. I do remember a police Land Rover, yes.
4 Q. Is it in that position? Is that right, or was it
5 somewhere else, doing the best you can?
6 A. Can I mark it?
7 Q. If it was somewhere else, mark where it was.
8 A. I sort of remember it being on down a wee bit.
9 Q. Okay. We will call that number 2 then. Thank you.
10 I have more documents that might help to jog your
11 memory. We are doing pretty good at the moment. Let's
12 see how far we go.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. You saw scuffling. You saw police. You saw somebody on
15 the ground. Who were you with?
16 A. There was me, Joanne Bradley, Heidi Reaney,
17 Michelle Jamieson, Wayne Lunt and Andrew Hill.
18 Q. Had you all come from the same place or had some of you
19 joined on on the way down?
20 A. I met Joanne Bradley at the start of the night and then
21 we must have met the rest of them at Michelle's house.
22 Q. We have seen some documents which suggest that
23 Andrew Hill came there with some other friends and met
24 one of your crowd somewhere around the town.
25 A. I can't remember.
37
1 Q. All right. So we have you walking down from the
2 West Street area. You obviously got near enough to this
3 to be able to see the person on the ground and the
4 Land Rover. How far down did you get?
5 A. I just sort of remember hovering, do you know, in the
6 middle of the road at the top of Woodhouse Street.
7 Q. As I keep saying, what we are interested in is what the
8 police got up to here and at what stage they did it.
9 Can you describe to us what people were doing?
10 A. When I entered the town, there was a big crowd of people
11 sort of shouting and throwing bottles at the Land Rover.
12 Q. Can you give us any idea of what you mean by "a big
13 crowd"? 10, 20, 30?
14 A. Quite more than that.
15 Q. Okay. Did you get the impression it was all, as it
16 were, one side, just a crowd against the police?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see any police out of the Land Rover at that
19 point?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you see any fighting?
22 A. No, just the bottles being thrown at the Land Rover.
23 Q. Did you see an ambulance?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Any other police cars?
38
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see anybody you knew?
3 A. Not that I can recall. I can't remember.
4 Q. Did you stay and watch it or talk to anybody or do
5 anything?
6 A. I just remember being in the town. I had -- I would
7 have had quite a lot to drink.
8 Q. Can you give us any idea of how long you might have
9 stayed there watching it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it frightening?
12 A. I can't really remember, because I just thought it was
13 between a crowd of people and the police.
14 Q. I just want to take you through the next contacts you
15 had with the police so we can see if that helps at all.
16 Page [70973]. I say it is the next contact. We don't
17 actually know when this was, but there was another
18 attempt to get you to answer a questionnaire. This was
19 to do with a party at Tracy McAlpine's house. What it
20 has you saying there is, "Refused to answer", through
21 all of this.
22 Do you have any recollection of this?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If we look at page [03499], if you recall, your first
25 questionnaire was late April. Here you are being seen
39
1 in the presence of your mother on 12th May 1997.
2 Apparently it is Detective Constable Dickson who writes
3 this. Let me just read to you what it states here in
4 case it helps:
5 "She states that she was at Michelle Jamieson's
6 house on the night of Saturday, 26th April, and that
7 Michelle Jamieson, Joanne Bradley, Heidi Reaney and
8 Wayne Lunt were there. They were drinking and listening
9 to music. Hobson claims that at about 0035 hours on
10 Sunday, 27th April, all five left the house and walked
11 Joanne Bradley to the footbridge to Union Street, where
12 they left her before going into Portadown town centre
13 where they intended to meet the Coach bus."
14 Stopping on that, I don't think that was right, was
15 it? I think Joanne Bradley actually went in with you.
16 A. I can't really recall, but, to my knowledge, I thought
17 she didn't.
18 Q. All right:
19 "She states that on her way to meet the bus, all
20 four were still together when a row developed on the
21 other side of the street and that at that time they were
22 outside Thornton's shop."
23 Does that help you remember, because what we are
24 very interested in is the development of this fight and
25 whether it was sudden or whether there was a slow
40
1 build-up that the police should have seen.
2 What Mr Dickson has you saying there is that the row
3 developed on the other side of the street. Doing the
4 best you can now, can you help us from whether it went
5 from a standing start, whether one minute it was quiet
6 and the next minute people were throwing bottles, or
7 whether, when you walked down there, things were already
8 happening?
9 A. When we entered the town, I remember it had already
10 started, crowds shouting at the Land Rover and bottles
11 being thrown.
12 Q. It goes on:
13 "She is very vague about what happened at that time
14 but states that they got separated. She did recall
15 seeing Lunt being put in the police Land Rover and
16 claimed he had not been involved in the fight, but could
17 not say he was in her view between the start of the
18 fight and Lunt being placed in the Land Rover."
19 Can you recall now --
20 A. I didn't see him being put in the Land Rover. I seen
21 him being let out of it.
22 Q. I know in your statement to us you say you didn't see
23 police on there, but you now assume, of course, there
24 must have been --
25 A. There must have been somebody to let him out.
41
1 Q. I know it is a long time ago. Again, doing the very
2 best you can to help us here -- and I am not suggesting
3 you saw Mr Lunt do anything which led him to be taken
4 into the Land Rover -- can you help us with what you
5 might have been watching, what you were concentrating on
6 while that might have been going on?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. All right.
9 Going on in this:
10 "She also recalls meeting up again with Michelle,
11 who at the time was standing over one of the injured
12 parties."
13 Have you any recollection of that, joining up with
14 Michelle right near to somebody on the ground?
15 A. No. I remember looking over and seeing the body. The
16 person that I seen kneeling over the body was the same
17 description as Michelle, so I just assumed it was
18 Michelle trying to help him.
19 Q. Did you have any impression there might have been
20 Protestants and Catholics there?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. Did you get the impression that Michelle was trying to
23 help or trying to hurt?
24 A. Trying to help.
25 Q. We have got evidence of a lady who was in the doorway at
42
1 Eastwoods who said that -- and she was a Catholic --
2 while the fight was going on, there were two girls who
3 came along and sympathised with her. One of them,
4 having sympathised, then picked up a bottle of Buckfast
5 and ran into the crowd shouting something like, "You did
6 my dad! You did my da!"
7 Could that have been you or Michelle?
8 A. That girl in her statement stated the girl had blonde
9 hair. I had met a policeman in the early hours of that
10 morning and he described me as a girl with long black
11 curly hair, which I had at the time. I had long black
12 curly hair.
13 Q. Could it have been Michelle?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Do you remember being in the Eastwoods area?
16 A. No. I just remember hovering between the top of
17 Woodhouse Street and the middle.
18 Q. This note goes on:
19 "She denies being at the party in McAlpine's and
20 claims to have wandered about and eventually fell in
21 with Noelle Moore and then [some others], Kenny Milligan
22 and Lee Stockdale. She states that they were in
23 Jervis Street when moved on by the police at about 6.00
24 am. Refused to make a statement."
25 Again, is that your recollection, that you wandered
43
1 round the town afterwards?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You can see the reason why I asked you about somebody
4 saying, "You done my da". Your father had been the
5 subject of a beating. Is that right?
6 Then if we look at [03549], you were seen again on
7 20th September 1997 apparently by Detective
8 Inspector Irwin. Do you recall that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. He says:
11 "Lisa Hobson spoken to reference her movements in
12 town centre. She gave varying accounts."
13 I am not sure what this means:
14 "Spoke with IP reference matter of identifying
15 Hobson."
16 That looks like it might be a reference to you
17 saying you had spoken to someone who was injured. Does
18 that help? Any recollection?
19 A. Sorry. Can you repeat that?
20 Q. When he says, "spoke with IP", we think the police were
21 using "IP" to mean "injured person" at the time. We
22 think what he is noting here is he thinks you said you
23 might have spoken to one of the injured persons at the
24 scene.
25 A. No.
44
1 Q. Then there is:
2 "Matter of identifying Hobson."
3 Do you know anything about Mr Marc Hobson?
4 A. I know him, yes.
5 Q. Did you have a conversation with the police about him at
6 any stage?
7 A. Not that I can recall.
8 Q. Then it says:
9 "Declined offer to speak further with police and
10 referred to solicitor..."
11 Why were you referring the police to a solicitor?
12 A. Was this -- I can't remember when this was that you are
13 talking about.
14 Q. Apparently September 1997.
15 A. I only remember being with the police in my mum's house
16 not long after it happened.
17 Q. Did you have a solicitor in 1997?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know xxxxxxxxxx?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Then if we go to page [06363], this is the first
22 page of a statement of Gordon Cooke. He is one of the
23 police officers who turned up at the scene. He is
24 describing here what happened when he arrived.
25 If we go over the next page [06364], taking it from
45
1 the end of the first line, he says:
2 "Other police also arrived at the scene around this
3 time. I approached the crowd along with other police
4 and started to move them back towards West Street.
5 I recognised the following persons at the front of the
6 crowd: Stacey Bridgett from ... Portadown. His nose was
7 bleeding. P53... He was wearing a multi-coloured checked
8 shirt. Rory Robinson of ... Portadown was wearing
9 a yellow-coloured shirt", then he describes more
10 clothing.
11 Then somebody else:
12 "... was wearing a black leather jacket and blue
13 denim trousers. On several occasions, while we were
14 holding this crowd back and trying to move them towards
15 West Street, I spoke to Robinson and [another] and asked
16 them to move up the street. Both refused to move and
17 each of them tried to push past myself and other police
18 on several occasions. I also recognised the following
19 persons among the crowd."
20 He describes a number of people there. A few
21 lines down one of those is:
22 "... a female with long dark curly hair wearing a black
23 jacket and black trousers, and a girl wearing a grey
24 Adidas top and purple denims. I later spoke to these
25 persons ... at 5.50 am and identified them as
46
1 Kenneth Milligan of Portadown, Lisa Hobson of Portadown
2 and Noelle Moore of Portadown respectively."
3 What he is doing, as you said, is seeing you with
4 your long, dark, curly hair at the time, but he sees you
5 in this crowd that is being aggressive and which
6 contains people with bleeding noses and he is having to
7 hold them back. He is trying to move them up the
8 street.
9 As you say, he sees you later on, but this is before
10 the ambulance arrives. There were injured persons on
11 the ground. This is a violent situation and you are in
12 the crowd that's aggressive. What do you say about
13 that?
14 A. I was just hovering about the town that night. I don't
15 recall any of that there.
16 Q. If we have a look at page [08105], this is
17 a questionnaire that Noelle Moore completed. If we look
18 at the bottom of it under Q4, she says, if we take the
19 fourth line down:
20 "Noelle Moore walked up to the church, met
21 Lisa Hobson, stayed with her for the rest of the night."
22 So it is clear that when Mr Cooke saw Noelle Moore
23 and the lady he later identified as you, or the girl he
24 later identified as you, it was you two he saw, wasn't
25 it?
47
1 A. I remember being with Noelle.
2 Q. If we look at [09977], this is a notebook entry of
3 another constable, Mr Orr. If we pick it up -- if we
4 split the screen with the next page, [09978], we can
5 magnify the last quarter of the first page. He is
6 saying there.
7 "I assisted other police trying to move who appeared
8 to be a Loyalist crowd towards the church and away from
9 the junction of Thomas Street."
10 That's pretty much what the last constable was
11 saying:
12 "As I was doing this, I noticed two persons lying",
13 and if we can magnify the rest of it, "on the road close
14 to the junction of Thomas Street. There was females
15 assisting them. The crowd was mostly made up of young
16 men and a few women. One of the women I know to be
17 Noelle Moore... She was with another female with long
18 black hair. There was about 50 in the crowd. This
19 crowd kept shouting abuse at an officer, part-time, who
20 was behind me. The crowd tried to pass police who were
21 holding them back. I instructed Reserve
22 Constable Warnock to return to Portadown Police Station
23 for a riot gun."
24 Now, the situation being described by these police
25 officers is a crowd, of which you are a part, that's
48
1 being very violent, so violent and aggressive that
2 a riot gun is called for. We are not interested in who
3 did what here apart from what the police did.
4 Doing the best you can, now you have seen all this,
5 can you help us with whether you saw the police get out
6 of the Land Rover?
7 A. I don't recall seeing any policemen on the road.
8 Q. Obviously the policeman who recognised you saw you on
9 the street and saw you again later on and identified who
10 you were. Can you tell us how it is you couldn't have
11 seen a police officer when you were in this crowd that
12 was doing this?
13 A. As I say, I had a lot to drink that night and I don't
14 recall seeing any policemen whatsoever until the early
15 hours of that morning when the policeman stopped me and
16 Noelle.
17 Q. How do you feel about the police?
18 A. I don't really have an opinion of them.
19 Q. Did you have an opinion on them when your father was
20 injured?
21 A. At the time my father was injured, it was sort of
22 a similar situation.
23 Q. Did you think the police did everything they could to
24 help your father?
25 A. Not really, no.
49
1 Q. So were you antagonistic towards the police in 1997?
2 A. I can't really remember my feelings back then.
3 Q. Really?
4 A. No.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you.
6 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
7 MR FERGUSON: Ms Hobson, help me. When the police first
8 spoke to you about two days after this incident, you
9 told them that you were coming from the Coach in
10 Banbridge.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That was a lie.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Why did you tell them that?
15 A. Because my dad had received the beating and he had
16 wanted me to stay out of the town centre, not to hang
17 about the town, and I didn't want to get into trouble.
18 Q. Yes, but did it make any difference, as far as your lies
19 were concerned, as to whether you told the police the
20 truth: namely, that you had been drinking with some
21 friends and then gone to the town centre or whether you
22 were coming in the bus from Banbridge?
23 A. Well, I didn't live at home at the time. I lived with
24 a friend, so I just didn't want my father knowing I was
25 hanging about the town. I would rather say I was away
50
1 somewhere than hanging about.
2 Q. But you were telling the police that you came back from
3 Banbridge in the Coach. Is that right?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You also told the police that Pauline Newell was with
6 you.
7 A. I knew my step sister was a regular at the Coach.
8 Q. I am sorry?
9 A. I knew my step sister was a regular at the Coach.
10 Q. That was a lie too.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. You made that up?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are you telling us the truth about what you remember
15 happening on that particular night?
16 A. Yes, because I realised the seriousness of the situation
17 and that I couldn't tell lies.
18 Q. But you did tell lies --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- despite all of that.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. You say you didn't see:
23 "I don't recall seeing any police getting out of the
24 Land Rover."
25 A. Yes.
51
1 Q. You saw Wayne Lunt getting out of the Land Rover. Is
2 that right?
3 A. Uh-huh, yes.
4 Q. Did you see him being put into the Land Rover?
5 A. I didn't, no. Not that I recall anyway.
6 Q. No. Did you see any police in the Land Rover with them?
7 A. I just recall him being let out, but obviously there had
8 to be somebody there to let him out.
9 Q. Is your basic position this: that you are not going to
10 give any evidence which may assist the police in this
11 matter?
12 A. All I know is what I remember that night. I definitely
13 can't remember seeing any policemen on the street.
14 MR FERGUSON: Yes.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
16 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
17 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
18 So that we are all absolutely clear, Ms Hobson, are
19 you telling us that you did not see any police
20 whatsoever until you were stopped later on that morning?
21 A. Not that I can recall, no.
22 Q. Is there any doubt about that? No police at all?
23 A. Not that I can recall, no. As I said, I had quite a bit
24 to drink.
25 Q. Well, you were not falling about drunk, were you?
52
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Did you walk down the town?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you fall down?
5 A. Not that I can remember.
6 Q. The beating that your father got --
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. -- was that a sectarian beating?
9 A. Nothing has ever come of it, so I don't know.
10 Q. Was it your belief at the time that it was a sectarian
11 beating?
12 A. I don't know. Nothing ever come of it and there was
13 never anybody arrested or questioned.
14 Q. Because there was nobody ever arrested, did you have bad
15 feelings about the police and did your family have bad
16 feelings about the police?
17 A. Well, I was upset at the time, because the police --
18 I felt, myself, the police didn't do enough to help him.
19 Q. Right. Now, when you were seen by the police, you
20 realised that this was a very serious situation that
21 they were investigating.
22 A. Uh-huh, yes.
23 Q. You know that a man had been murdered --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- and another man injured. Is that right?
53
1 A. All I knew was someone had been murdered.
2 Q. Yes. You were in the heart of it. You were there and
3 saw what happened.
4 A. No, I just seen -- as I entered the town, I just seen
5 crowds of people and the Land Rover.
6 Q. So you were there and saw part of what happened?
7 A. Yes. The bottle thrown.
8 Q. Why did you not make a statement to the police and tell
9 them what you had seen, to try to help the police
10 investigate this crime?
11 A. The only time I recall talking to the police is when
12 they came to my mother's house.
13 Q. Why did you refuse to make a statement?
14 A. I don't remember refusing to make a statement.
15 Q. Well, the Panel will hear evidence that you did refuse
16 to make a statement. Now, if that's accepted, can you
17 help us as to why it is that you refused to help in this
18 investigation, help the police in this investigation?
19 A. I can't, no, because I can't remember it.
20 Q. Looking back now, can you think of any reason why you
21 might have refused to make a statement?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by the Inquiry and
24 then making a statement to the Inquiry?
25 A. Was that in Belfast?
54
1 Q. I am not sure.
2 A. I'm not sure.
3 Q. I presume so. It is in 2008, just last year.
4 A. I only remember being interviewed by someone from the
5 Inquiry once a few years ago.
6 Q. Well, the statement I have is dated 2008. It may be
7 that the interview was at a different time.
8 In any event, if we could call up the statement
9 of --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: [81553], I think.
11 MR ADAIR: I just noticed it is not on the bottom of mine.
12 Thank you, sir.
13 If we go to [81554], you see at the top of that
14 page where there is a note that states:
15 "'Lisa is currently staying with [blank]. She is
16 a friend of mine with whom I must have been staying at
17 the time.
18 "6. DC [Dickson]'s notes say at the end 'Refused to make
19 a statement. Lisa further states her father was the
20 subject of a beating'."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was your refusal to make a statement related to the fact
24 that you were disappointed in the way the police dealt
25 with the beating of your father?
55
1 A. I can't remember refusing to talk to them, so,
2 therefore, I don't know, because I can't remember.
3 Q. Do you see it goes on:
4 "I may have been asked to make a statement, but
5 I cannot remember this. My father was beaten up and had
6 been on a life-support machine. He warned me to stay
7 out of the investigation because of what had happened to
8 him."
9 A. That was wrong. I had said he wanted me to stay out of
10 the town centre, not the investigation.
11 Q. So you told the Inquiry he wanted you to stay out of the
12 town centre and they have put he wanted you to stay out
13 of the investigation. Is that what you are telling us?
14 A. I remember saying -- that's why I initially changed my
15 statement. My dad had warned me to stay out of the
16 town.
17 Q. But it says here that you told the Inquiry that your
18 father warned you to stay out of the investigation
19 because of what had happened to him?
20 A. No, he wanted me to stay out of the town.
21 Q. Is that just nonsense, what's in your statement?
22 A. Well, it is there, but he warned me to stay out of the
23 town, not the investigation.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you say that?
25 A. I don't recall saying that, no.
56
1 THE CHAIRMAN: There is a transcript, I think, isn't there?
2 So it can be checked.
3 MR ADAIR: There is, sir. I will have it checked.
4 If you go to page [81556], and if you highlight,
5 first of all, paragraph 13, please, you say in this
6 paragraph:
7 "I do not recall exactly when I saw the disturbance
8 in the town centre. I just remember being in the middle
9 of town, that people were hurling abuse at police and
10 there was a person lying ground."
11 Now, just stopping there for a moment, was it the
12 Protestants or the Catholics or both that were hurling
13 abuse at the police?
14 A. At that time, I didn't know it was between Protestants
15 and Catholics. All I seen was people throwing bottles
16 at the Land Rover and shouting.
17 Q. What were they shouting?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. Well, try and think.
20 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago and I probably
21 had a lot to drink.
22 Q. "I just saw a body on the ground and I could not see the
23 person's face. I only saw one body on the ground.
24 Looking down Market Street with St Mark's Church
25 behind me, I would say the body was lying on the
57
1 right-hand side of the street at the bottom of
2 Thomas Street. I think I was standing in the middle of
3 the road, but I cannot remember exactly where I was."
4 If you highlight paragraph 15 then, please:
5 "I remember there were a few police Land Rovers
6 parked across the street."
7 Is that right?
8 A. I can't recall how many there was, but I remember seeing
9 one at the top of Woodhouse Street.
10 Q. "They were facing up towards the church."
11 Is that right?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. "However, I do not remember seeing any police officers
14 getting out. The person lying on the ground was between
15 the police and the crowd."
16 What did you mean by that?
17 A. I don't know. I just remember the body lying where
18 Eastwoods shop would have been in the middle of the
19 road. I don't remember where the Land Rover was -- if
20 there was one sitting at that side of the road or
21 anything.
22 Q. What did you mean by the person on the ground was
23 between the police and the crowd? Were the police
24 holding the crowd back?
25 A. No, there was no police -- I don't recall seeing any
58
1 police on foot.
2 Q. At all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. At any stage?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you there when the ambulance arrived?
7 A. No, I didn't see any ambulance.
8 Q. You didn't see that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear any sirens arriving?
11 A. Not that I can recall. I can't remember. But
12 I definitely didn't see any ambulance.
13 Q. Did you see the person who was lying on the ground being
14 taken away?
15 A. No, not that I can recall, no.
16 Q. So far as you are concerned, there were no sirens, no
17 police, no ambulance?
18 A. I am saying I can't remember any ambulance being there
19 at all.
20 Q. Would you tell us the truth, Ms Hobson, please?
21 A. I am telling the truth. I cannot remember any ambulance
22 being there at all or any policemen on the street.
23 Q. So the police were just sitting in this Land Rover with
24 bottles being smashed against it. Is that right?
25 A. That's what I remember, bottles being thrown.
59
1 Q. Were they smashing on to the ground all these bottles?
2 A. I don't know. They were being thrown towards the
3 Land Rover.
4 Q. Do you know Allister Hanvey?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know Marc Hobson?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see him?
9 A. I don't recall seeing him, no.
10 Q. Stacey Bridgett?
11 A. I know him, yes.
12 Q. Did you see him?
13 A. I can't remember seeing anybody.
14 Q. Dean Forbes, do you know him?
15 A. I know of him, yes.
16 Q. Did you see him?
17 A. No, I don't recall.
18 Q. You saw very little, Ms Hobson.
19 A. Well, I was drunk and I was very young and it was a long
20 time ago and I can't recall who was there and who
21 wasn't.
22 Q. Do you know a person called "Fonzy"?
23 A. "Fonzy"?
24 Q. Mr Allen?
25 A. Yes.
60
1 Q. Do you know him? Did you see him?
2 A. No, I don't recall seeing him, no. They could have been
3 there, but I don't remember seeing them.
4 Q. Who did you see amongst the crowd?
5 A. All I remember is the people that I was with.
6 Q. So you didn't see or recognise anybody else amongst the
7 crowd?
8 A. I remember seeing my step-sister, Pauline.
9 Q. None of the boys? You don't remember recognising any of
10 the boys?
11 A. I don't remember them.
12 Q. Isn't that just nonsense?
13 A. I can't recall seeing anybody. It was a long time ago.
14 Q. All these people that you know, that we know were there,
15 but you didn't see any of them or see them do anything?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If you go to page [08107], please, this is
18 a questionnaire that you filled in. Do you remember
19 being asked about this?
20 A. I just remember that time at my mother's and that was
21 it.
22 Q. You see starting at the bottom of the page:
23 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so,
24 give details."
25 Then if we turn over the page, [08108], what you
61
1 told them was:
2 "Seen scuffling with crowds and police."
3 Tell us what the scuffling with the police was.
4 A. All I remember is people running about throwing bottles
5 and shouting. To me -- I don't know. Maybe I said it
6 wrong, or worded it wrong.
7 Q. Do you not accept that the natural meaning of, "Seen
8 scuffling with crowds and police", is that there were
9 police on the road and they are scuffling with the
10 crowd?
11 It is not a crowd throwing bottles at a Land Rover.
12 A. That's all I seen and I definitely don't recall any
13 police being there. They could have been, but I don't
14 remember seeing any.
15 MR ADAIR: All right. Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You say there was an angry crowd shouting and
17 their shouts you think were directed at the Land Rover?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Just help us about this. In Portadown, if
20 there is an angry crowd shouting, can you generally tell
21 from what they are shouting whether they are Catholics
22 or Protestants or both?
23 A. I don't know.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't know.
25 A. When I entered the town --
62
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not asking what you heard that night. I
2 am just asking about the general picture. If you get
3 an angry crowd and they are shouting because they are
4 angry, can you generally tell from what they are saying
5 whether they are Protestants or Catholics?
6 A. You probably could, yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.
8 Yes, Mr McKenna?
9 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA
10 MR McKENNA: Ms Hobson, I will ask you one or two questions
11 on behalf of the Hamill family.
12 If I could take you to the action record print at
13 [03499], and if I could just have the bottom half of
14 that. This is when police spoke to you on 12th May.
15 Do you recall that?
16 A. 12th May.
17 Q. 1997.
18 A. Was that when they come to my mother's?
19 Q. Well, was it?
20 A. I am not sure. I don't recall the dates. I am not
21 sure.
22 Q. In any event, you were spoken to by the police?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: It was in the presence of your mother.
24 A. Oh, yes.
25 MR McKENNA: About four or five lines down you have said you
63
1 were with Michelle Jamieson and Joanne Bradley drinking,
2 etc, listening to music. Then you go on to say:
3 "... at about 0035 hours on Sunday... all five left
4 the house and walked Joanne Bradley to the footbridge."
5 Then you went on into town. Is that right?
6 A. I thought we maybe left -- I can't recall if she came
7 into town with us or not but Joanne had to be in before
8 her mum got home from work.
9 Q. Yes, that's right. I think she gave evidence that she
10 had to be home by 1.00.
11 A. Yes, because her mum worked in the Chinese.
12 Q. So it is safe to assume that when you say you left at
13 about 12.35, that would be correct?
14 A. I can't remember the time.
15 Q. But certainly she had to be home by 1 o'clock, so that
16 would make sense?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You left her at the footbridge and you go on into the
19 town centre. To the police at that stage you said that
20 was for the purpose of meeting the bus from the
21 Coach Inn at Banbridge.
22 A. We usually would have went into town to be nosy when the
23 Coach bus came in.
24 Q. So you were intending to meet those coming off the Coach
25 bus?
64
1 A. No, just generally being nosy.
2 Q. To see what was going on and what the craic was. Would
3 that be right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We know the Coach bus arrived back into Portadown around
6 1.45?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Now, if you left to go into town to meet the Coach bus,
9 and you certainly left some time before 1 o'clock --
10 A. I don't recall any time.
11 Q. Yes, but that puts you in the town centre some
12 considerable time before the Coach bus arrived, doesn't
13 it?
14 A. But who says -- I don't know if we left her off and went
15 directly to town or how long it would have took us to
16 get to town.
17 Q. So are you saying it was over an hour? I mean she had
18 to be home before 1 o'clock. I am presuming you left
19 her at some stage before 1 o'clock?
20 A. If that's what it says, if that's what Joanne says.
21 Q. Would that be right? You have told us already that she
22 had to be home by 1 o'clock --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- so can we presume you left her off before
25 1 o'clock --
65
1 A. It would have been, yes.
2 Q. -- and then walked on into town to meet the bus. Is
3 that right?
4 A. Yes, that was the plan, yes, to walk into town and meet
5 the bus, yes.
6 Q. Which is what you did?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Now, the bus does not arrive until 1.45. So can we take
9 it that you are in the town centre waiting for the bus?
10 A. No, when I arrived in the town everything was going on
11 so, therefore, I wasn't in town when the bus came in.
12 Q. The difficulty with that is, Ms Hobson, that the trouble
13 didn't start until after the bus had arrived.
14 A. Well, I couldn't have been there when the bus came in,
15 because when I got to town everything was going on.
16 Q. That's not the truth, Ms Hobson, is it really?
17 A. That's what I remember, yes.
18 Q. Now, if we could turn to your statement, Ms Hobson,
19 I think it is at page -- Mr Chairman, if you will allow
20 me --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The Inquiry statement?
22 MR McKENNA: The Inquiry statement.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: [81553] it begins. It is on the screen.
24 MR McKENNA: Yes. At page [80457] -- sorry.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's another statement.
66
1 MR McKENNA: In any event, it is your Inquiry statement. If
2 we could go to paragraph 18, [80461], yes, you say you
3 were with Wayne Lunt on this night. Isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All five of you went into the town centre together?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At the start of that paragraph you say:
8 "Wayne Lunt was arrested for hurling abuse at the
9 police."
10 Is that right?
11 A. He must have told me that's what he was arrested for.
12 Q. But he was arrested for a little more than hurling
13 abuse, wasn't he?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Well, if I could take you then to the statement of
16 Constable A, this is at page [00716]. Now, this is the
17 police officer who arrested Mr Lunt on the night and
18 took him to the Land Rover. She says about a quarter of
19 the way down:
20 "I observed a male youth to my left, this youth was
21 of slim build, approximately 5'9" in height,
22 wearing white trainers, white jeans, a white sweat shirt
23 with grey stripes on the sleeves."
24 Is that an accurate description of Mr Lunt on the
25 night?
67
1 A. I can't remember what he was wearing.
2 Q. I don't think there is any dispute this was him:
3 "He also wore a white peaked cap and a red, white
4 and blue scarf wrapped around his face."
5 That seems to suggest his face was obscured by
6 a scarf.
7 A. I don't know. I don't recall that.
8 Q. "Upon observing this youth, I noticed that he was
9 carrying a bottle ..."
10 Now, if you go back to your statement at
11 paragraph 19, your statement to the Inquiry -- I don't
12 have a page reference, Mr Chairman
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Probably [81557] or [81558].
14 MR McKENNA: If we could have it up now. Paragraph 19.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: [81557]?
16 MR McKENNA: Three lines from the bottom, you say:
17 "We probably each had a bottle with us if we had not
18 finished them off."
19 Is that right?
20 A. Well, if we had not finished them, we would have had
21 a drink with us.
22 Q. So you would only have been carrying a bottle,
23 presumably, if you had had something in it to drink. Is
24 that what you are saying?
25 A. Uh-huh.
68
1 Q. Now, if I could take you back to the statement of
2 Constable A again at page [00716], and if we could
3 highlight the bottom half of that, do you see she says
4 there:
5 "Upon observing this youth", this is Mr Lunt,
6 "I noticed that he was carrying a bottle upside down..."
7 Now, I pause there to suggest to you he clearly
8 wasn't carrying a bottle upside down if he was drinking
9 from it.
10 A. I can't say what he would have done, because I can't --
11 I can only speak for myself.
12 Q. "... and he was running towards a crowd that was at the
13 junction of Thomas Street."
14 You see, Ms Hobson, you describe in your evidence
15 that there was a crowd throwing bottles at police?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. I have to suggest to you that you were there from the
18 beginning of the disturbance, because you were in town
19 from some time shortly after 1 o'clock, if your timings
20 are correct.
21 A. I don't recall what time I reached town at.
22 Q. You saw Wayne Lunt enthusiastically engaged in throwing
23 bottles at police. Would that be right?
24 A. No, I didn't see him.
25 Q. Later on that evening, you are seen by Constable Cooke
69
1 amongst the crowd. Do you remember being referred to
2 that statement? I think, in fact, you referred to it
3 yourself when he described you as having curly, dark
4 hair. Would that be right?
5 A. Is that not the one I was speaking to in the early hours
6 of the morning?
7 Q. That's correct, but he -- if we could turn to his
8 statement. It is page [06363]. If we go over the
9 page to [06364], the bottom half of that, and if we
10 could highlight it, he sees various people amongst the
11 crowd. Do you see that? He describes a male person
12 wearing a grey Umbro sweatshirt, fawn trousers and black
13 and white trainers and a female with long, dark, curly
14 hair. Could that be you?
15 A. I did have long, black, curly hair.
16 Q. He later spoke to these persons at 5.50 in the morning.
17 You, in fact, then, I think, identified yourself to him?
18 A. I must have if he said I did.
19 Q. What were you doing until 5.50 in the morning?
20 A. I can't remember. Our usual weekend was just to get
21 something to drink and just wander about.
22 Q. Who were you speaking to?
23 A. As in who?
24 Q. Who were you speaking to?
25 A. All I remember at that time in the morning is being with
70
1 Noelle.
2 Q. So some time between 2.30 and 6.00 in the morning you
3 were wandering the streets in the town centre?
4 A. That was our usual, just wandering the streets.
5 Q. Where your father had warned you not to go?
6 A. Well, I wasn't living with my father at that time.
7 Q. So you ignored his advice, did you?
8 A. I had a lot of family problems at that stage and I was
9 not living at home.
10 Q. Is it not the case you were at the party in your
11 step-sister's house?
12 A. I didn't get on with my step-sister at the time, so
13 I wouldn't have been there.
14 Q. If we go to the questionnaire of Tracey Clarke. Do you
15 know Tracey Clarke?
16 A. No.
17 Q. It is at page [70900], Mr Chairman.
18 You have heard of Tracey Clarke, though?
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. You will see at page [70902] she is listing the people
21 who are present at this party and she names you. Do you
22 see that?
23 A. Yes. I wouldn't have been at Tracy's house, because me
24 and my step-sister didn't get on, the older one, which
25 is Tracy.
71
1 Q. Why did you say you were at the Coach with her?
2 A. I said Pauline. She's the younger one that I did get on
3 with.
4 Q. So you got on with one of them but not the other?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So your evidence to the Panel today is that you wandered
7 the streets of Portadown, the city centre of Portadown,
8 where you were told not to be by your father, for some
9 three and a half hours until you were stopped by the
10 police constable?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: We have that.
12 A. That was the usual thing to do at the weekends, just get
13 a carry-out and wander about.
14 MR McKENNA: Thank you, Ms Hobson.
15 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
16 MR McCOMB: No questions.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Hobson. You are free now to
19 go.
20 A. Thank you.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Martin Hamill, please.
23 MR MARTIN CLEMENT HAMILL (sworn)
24 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Hamill.
72
1 A. Morning.
2 Q. I think you know I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I will ask just a few questions, if I may.
5 Firstly, your full names, please?
6 A. Martin Clement Hamill.
7 Q. If we look on the screen, can we look at [81614],
8 please?
9 If we just flick through that and the next page, is
10 that a statement that you have, in fact, now signed for
11 us?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All I want to concentrate on is paragraphs 8 to 10.
16 I think you know that when the person we are calling D
17 gave evidence, a question arose about why it is you had
18 had a falling out with him, in fact, a fight with him.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The question mark hanging over that was whether in some
21 way you had blamed him for the death of Robert, either
22 by starting the fight or by not helping Robert when
23 Robert was attacked. You here deal with the fight in
24 paragraph 8, and in paragraph 10 you tell us:
25 "The feud between us was never related to any [such]
73
1 suggestion."
2 Can you help us with the falling out between the
3 families? Was it anything to do with the death of
4 Robert as far as you knew?
5 A. No, it was never anything to do with what happened to
6 Robert, the reason that me and [D] ended up fighting.
7 It was to do with -- they sort of withdrew from our
8 family, didn't want to talk to us, didn't talk no more
9 for some reason. Then it come to light that he had made
10 a claim in court for his injuries. I had found this
11 out. He knew that I knew that and that -- I think that
12 raised the tension a wee bit more.
13 Q. Just help us with why you were irritated about him
14 making a claim like that?
15 A. I would have felt -- I did feel at the time that that
16 claim would have been for mental stress or mental
17 injury, which I didn't believe he had.
18 Q. All right. Just to be entirely clear, do you have any
19 reason to believe or think that in some way D and the
20 ladies that were with him started this fight or in some
21 way contributed to the death of Robert?
22 A. No. Never at any time have I ever thought anything
23 different than what they have told us.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Hamill. Those are the
25 questions I have. It may be that others have some more.
74
1 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
2 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair.
4 MR ADAIR: Now, Mr Hamill, it seems that D -- that is [name
5 redacted] -- E and F --
6
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- you know who those people are?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As far as I understand your evidence, for some reason
11 they withdrew from your family at a very early stage?
12 A. No, I wouldn't say it was at an early stage, no.
13 Q. What sort of stage was it after Robert's --
14 A. It would have been a couple of years.
15 Q. Have you any idea why they withdrew from your family?
16 A. Just as I said. I couldn't really put my finger on
17 exactly what was going on there. I couldn't put my
18 finger on it. Then at the end up, that's the conclusion
19 I came to.
20 Q. Yes, but as I understand what you are saying, they
21 withdrew -- there was a lack of rapport between the two
22 families and then later on you found out about this
23 criminal injury claim. Isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, was there anything that you can help us with,
75
1 either said by any one of them or any of your family, as
2 to why there had been this initial withdrawing, this
3 coldness?
4 A. There was never anything ever put -- nobody ever put
5 their finger on it even between us and them. It was
6 never sat down -- nobody sat down and said, "What is
7 going on here?" It just happened and that was it --
8 Q. Did nobody ever -- sorry, carry on.
9 A. -- and then it just -- it come to the culmination of the
10 blows in the street.
11 Q. It came to the?
12 A. The culmination of him and me and blows in the street.
13 Q. I understand that. I think he stopped outside your
14 house and started staring at you and so on?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I will leave it at this. If you can't help us, you
17 can't help us.
18 You can't help us at all as to why the coldness
19 developed between the families?
20 A. The only reason I can put on it is the shame he had for
21 making a claim.
22 Q. How would that have developed a coldness, his shame?
23 I mean, at that stage you didn't know he had made
24 a claim, so how would the fact that he had made a claim
25 cause coldness between the families?
76
1 A. He wouldn't have knew I didn't know that.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this hindsight on your part to say,
3 "I think that was the cause of it: that he had made
4 a claim for compensation"?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: But at the time was one family withdrawing
7 from the other or was it mutual?
8 A. It is vague enough in my memory, but I would have
9 said -- I would say that it was they had withdrew from
10 us. We had no reason to withdraw from them at any
11 stage, no reason at all.
12 MR ADAIR: Did you ever ask them why?
13 A. It has never been put out. The question has never been
14 asked to them.
15 Q. Surely, Mr Hamill, if -- what relations are they?
16 A. Cousins.
17 Q. Cousins.
18 A. He is married to my cousins.
19 Q. Yes. So the two ladies are cousins?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He is married to one of them?
22 A. The two ladies are sisters.
23 Q. Sorry. Yes. So they are fairly close family?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when a coldness then developed between fairly close
77
1 family, did nobody in your circle say, "What on earth is
2 going on here?"
3 A. I would imagine it was said, yes.
4 Q. Did you ever say it?
5 A. I would say I did, yes.
6 Q. Did you ever approach any of them and say --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- "Why are you suddenly so cold to us?"
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why not?
11 A. If people want to be cold to me, I am not going to run
12 after them.
13 Q. Mr Hamill, this is fairly close family. Now, a coldness
14 develops between you and part of your close family, are
15 you telling us that not one of your immediate circle
16 thought to ever ask somebody, "What is going on here?"
17 Is that what you are saying?
18
19 A. That's exactly what I am saying, yes.
20 MR ADAIR: Okay. Thank you.
21 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
22 MR McCOMB: No questions, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
24 Cross-examination by MR McKILLOP
25 MR McKILLOP: Mr Chairman, I appear for D, E and F. Just
78
1 a couple of matters.
2 Mr Hamill, do you realise we are referring to your
3 cousins and relations as D, E and F and not using their
4 first names. Do you appreciate that?
5 A. Yes, okay.
6 Q. Now, in the very last sentence of your statement you say
7 it never entered your head that D started this fight.
8 Is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. That remains your view, does it?
11 A. That is my view.
12 Q. Does the same apply to your cousins, E and F?
13 A. That is my view, yes.
14 Q. Then, when you refer to D being ashamed in
15 paragraph 5 -- do you have your statement in front of
16 you? I am sorry. I don't have a page number. It is
17 the first page of his statement to the Inquiry.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It is [81614].
19 MR McKILLOP: Do you see paragraph 5, Mr Hamill, towards the
20 end:
21 "I assumed that it was because D knew that I knew he
22 had made a claim for his injuries and that he was
23 ashamed of what he had done."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now when you refer to him being ashamed, are you
79
1 referring to him bringing a claim or something he did
2 that night?
3 A. Referring to him bringing a claim.
4 I felt that it looked to me like they were more
5 interested in money than getting justice for what
6 happened and getting to the truth at the end of it all.
7 Q. Now, Mr Hamill, I am going to suggest something to you.
8 I don't mean to be offensive. The fact that D brought
9 a claim, do you not accept that is none of your
10 business?
11 A. Not really, no.
12 Q. It is part of your business?
13 A. No, it is not really any of my business, no, but
14 emotions were running through me.
15 Q. Yes. Are you aware that D, E and F made statements to
16 the police about this incident?
17 A. I am sure they did.
18 Q. Have you any doubt about that?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: He said, "I am sure they did".
20 MR McKILLOP: They made statements to the Inquiry?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. They have come here and given evidence to the Inquiry?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you aware E and F never made mention in any of those
25 statements or their evidence to this court, to this
80
1 Tribunal, to bring a claim. Are you aware of that?
2 A. Am I aware of what?
3 Q. Are you aware that E and F never made any reference at
4 any time, including when they were giving evidence at
5 this Inquiry, that they had initiated a claim for
6 personal injuries?
7 A. I never read it, no.
8 Q. In fact, you are the only person who has mentioned that.
9 Isn't that correct?
10 A. That could well be, yes.
11 Q. Do you think it is the proper thing to do, Mr Hamill,
12 with the benefit of hindsight now, that you would raise
13 an issue of a claim for compensation in the street?
14 A. Explain that.
15 Q. Well, do you see what you say in paragraph 6:
16 "It was never actually clear to us exactly what this
17 rift was about. It was only ever mentioned once that
18 I can remember. I saw E and F, and I think it was at
19 the", overleaf, [81615], "corner of the street and they
20 walked away. I think I said something like, 'Did you
21 get your claim?'"
22 Do you recall it now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you brought up this issue of compensation in the
25 public street, Mr Hamill?
81
1 A. If you had been on the street, you would have seen all
2 that developed there before I said that.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: They seem not to have been on visiting terms,
4 so if it was going to be spoken of, it might have been
5 on the street.
6 A. So I explained to the Inquiry exactly when it was
7 mentioned. That's all -- it is taken out of context
8 there, if you know what I mean.
9 MR McKILLOP: Well, I don't. It is your statement,
10 Mr Hamill, is it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
13 MR McGRORY: Can I ask him one simple question?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory.
15 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
16 MR McGRORY: Is it correct that the only reason you have
17 made a statement about your belief that D made a claim
18 was because you were asked for an explanation as to the
19 tension between you and him?
20 A. That's absolutely correct.
21 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Am I right that a statement was sought from
23 Mr Martin Hamill after D told us of the fight and as
24 a consequence of that?
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Precisely so, sir.
82
1 Thank you very much, Mr Hamill.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, this might be an opportune moment for me
4 to read some excerpts from some statements that form
5 part of this batch of evidence.
6 The first of those is a statement of
7 Michelle Jamieson. It was proposed that we would call
8 her. Unfortunately, she has tragically died. So I am
9 going to read to you parts of the statement which begin
10 at page [80573].
11 Although this says "draft", as will the other
12 statements I bring up on screen, we have, in fact, got
13 signed versions. She refers in paragraph 2 to two
14 statements given to the police investigating the murder
15 of Robert Hamill, the first dated 9th May 1997 and the
16 second 12th May . Perhaps I could go directly to those
17 before we carry on with this statement.
18 So at page [09146] -- perhaps we could highlight the
19 text -- she told the police there:
20 "On Sunday morning, the 27th April 1997, at about 1.30 am or
21 1.45 am I walked from my home to Mandeville Street, Portadown, with
22 my friend Heidi Reaney."
23 She set out what she was wearing. She said:
24 "When we reached Mandeville Street, I saw Heidi's
25 boyfriend..."
83
1 He called her over. Then she said:
2 "I stayed there for about five minutes when I heard
3 shouting coming from the town centre. I heard people
4 shouting, 'Come you Fenian bastards', and, 'Come on
5 then'. I walked down towards the town centre to see
6 what was going on. Heidi and her boyfriend stayed where
7 they were at. I told her I would meet up with her again
8 at the same place. I stopped at the roundabout thing in
9 the centre of the town. At this time, I could see
10 people coming up from the bottom of the town. There was
11 about 20 to 30 people about. The bulk of the people
12 were across the street from Woodhouse Street to the
13 street opposite it.
14 "I saw a police Land Rover sitting near to the
15 Alliance & Leicester bank, didn't notice any the
16 police out on the street. There were loads of people
17 running about and there was shouting and screaming.
18 I heard", overleaf, [09147], "things like 'Come on
19 then', 'Come ahead', being shouted. I realised there
20 was a fight going on between Protestants and Catholics.
21 I stayed at the roundabout thing for a couple of minutes
22 and during that time I could hear bottles smashing.
23 I walked on down towards the crowd, I walked down the
24 centre of the street and then crossed over to the
25 right-hand side of the street.
84
1 "As I was doing so, I heard a woman screaming; she
2 had her hair in a bob, it was brown. She was wearing
3 a black jacket, I think. She was down on her knees over
4 a man who was lying on the street face downwards. He
5 was lying near to Eastwoods shop. She was screaming for
6 help and an ambulance. I kept looking at the man all
7 the time. I walked over to the woman and the man. The
8 woman said, 'There's no point in it', to me. I knelt
9 down and listened to his breathing. He sounded as if he
10 couldn't get any air.
11 "During this time, I saw the police standing near
12 the Land Rover on the opposite side of the street to
13 where I was. When I heard his breathing, I got scared
14 and I thought that he had been hit hard and I got up.
15 "Before I left the woman, I heard someone say that
16 there was an ambulance on its way. I walked up the
17 left-hand side of the street to Mandeville Street where
18 I met up with Heidi again. Her boyfriend was still
19 there. Heidi and I left him there and walked home
20 again. I was home again at ten minutes past two. I did not know anyone
21 in the town centre because they were running everywhere
22 and the only person I knew was", somebody we don't have
23 dealings with.
24 The second statement she made --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give me the date of the first one?
85
1 MR UNDERWOOD: 9th May 1997, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Then at page [09149] we see the second
4 statement that's referred to in the Inquiry witness
5 statement. This is dated 12th May 1997.
6 She says in the second line:
7 "Further to my statement of 9/5/97, I would like to
8 add the following. On Saturday, 26/4/97, at about
9 7.00 pm, I met my friend Heidi Reaney at Connaught Park.
10 This is our usual arrangement. We went for a walk up
11 Jervis Street and around Brownstown before going in to
12 Brownstown Park. There we met Wayne Lunt, Philip Lunt
13 and Mark Burcombe. Philip and Mark went to the Buffs and
14 Wayne stayed with us. I think he had a carry-out at
15 that stage.
16 "Wayne, Heidi and me were walking towards my house
17 when Joanne Bradley and Lisa Hobson called at us from
18 Connaught Park. They joined us and the five of us went
19 to my house, where we sat around drinking and listening
20 to music. I am not too sure, but I think all of us
21 except Wayne went for a walk into Brownstown area before
22 coming back to my home. During the night, I remember
23 Wayne rang a taxi to bring him another bottle of wine.
24 I am not sure which taxi company he rang. I also
25 remember my brother Mark came home just before Joanne
86
1 and Lisa left. They left because Joanne had to be home
2 for her baby. When Wayne, Heidi and me left my house,
3 we headed for Portadown, as I described in my previous
4 statement. I do not know where Wayne went, but he left
5 our company in the area of the Can Hong Chinese on
6 West [9150] Street and the old railway bridge in West Street.
7 I did not see Wayne again that night."
8 Then, if we go back to her Inquiry statement at
9 [80573], she says in paragraph 3:
10 "In April 1997, I was 16 years old and I attended
11 Craigavon High School."
12 She had moved to Portadown in about 1990 and in 1997
13 tells us where she was living. Then if we go over the
14 page, [80574], paragraph 7.
15 She planned to get drunk at home. Met Heidi Reaney
16 early in the evening:
17 "Without being reminded, I do not remember where
18 I met Heidi but it says in my second statement that it
19 was at Connaught Park."
20 Forgive me. She tells me who she was with.
21 I think, unhappily, there is nothing else I can get out
22 of the statement that will go any further than the
23 statements made to the police
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: For the record, the signed version of the
87
1 statement is at page [81560].
2 It might be convenient to read three more --
3 excerpts from three more statements at the moment of
4 people whose names have cropped up in the course of this
5 week.
6 The first is Philip Curran. That's page [80230].
7 Again, there is a signed version of this.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: This is a statement to the Inquiry, is it?
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite so. At paragraph 2 of this Mr Curran
10 says:
11 "I made a statement 09630 to the police concerning
12 the events of 26th/27th April 1997, dated 1st June 1997.
13 I have no recollection of making the statement, but
14 I confirm its contents are true, to the best of my
15 knowledge."
16 I can do no better, I think, than go to that, which
17 is at [09630]. This is one we have seen several times
18 before. He says:
19 "I reside at an address known to police. On
20 Saturday 26/04/97 I went to a football match at Hanover,
21 Brownstown with Davy Gray. We stayed at the club until
22 about 11 pm. We then got a taxi and went to the
23 Buffs club, staying there until about 1 am. We
24 decided to go to West Street for a Chinese and, when we
25 arrived there, a young fellow called Paul Currie said
88
1 there was a lot of trouble down the town. We got the
2 Chinese and walked down the town to see what was
3 happening. When we got there, I seen a guy lying on the
4 road and then they put him into the ambulance and took
5 him away."
6 Going back to the Inquiry statement at [80230], at
7 paragraph 4 Mr Curran tells us:
8 "I remember hearing sirens and together with
9 David Gray I walked down West Street towards the town
10 centre. We got to the church and the police were
11 pushing everyone out of the town centre. I didn't see
12 any violence ..."
13 The reason I am introducing this, of course, is to
14 give context to Mr Currie's evidence that you have heard
15 earlier this week about the conversation he was able to
16 have with Mr Curran.
17 Of course, there is no suggestion that Mr Curran or
18 Mr Gray got down there in time to see the violence begin
19 or, indeed, continue.
20 We can then go the statement of Mr Gray, which is at
21 [80334]. At paragraph 2 of that, he tells us:
22 "On 30 May 1997 I made a statement to the police
23 which is now produced and shown to me containing
24 page numbers 09135-09136. I confirm the contents of
25 that statement are true to the best of my knowledge and
89
1 belief."
2 Perhaps we can go to that. [09135]. If we
3 highlight the text. Again, it is one we have seen
4 before. If I go half a dozen lines down:
5 "When we left the Buffs, we went to get a Chinese
6 carryout at West Street. We walked to the Chinese and,
7 on the way in, a young fella going past said they were
8 killing other down the town. I don't know who this
9 young fellow was. We went ahead and got a carryout and
10 then walked down the town through curiosity to see
11 what was happening.
12 "As we went down the town, I seen an ambulance
13 parked on the street somewhere adjacent to
14 Woodhouse Street. I seen a person lying in the middle
15 of the street close to the ambulance. At the back of
16 the ambulance I saw a fellow I know as Dermot McNeice.
17 I knew Dermot because I had worked with him in Denny's but
18 I hadn't seen him since about September last year
19 because I was off sick."
20 If we cut back to the Inquiry statement at [80334],
21 in fact, going over to the second page of it, [80335],
22 if we highlight the entire text, he tells us:
23 "I recall that on the way there, a young fellow told
24 Philip and me that people were killing each other in
25 town. I don't know who this fellow was. Philip in his
90
1 statement referred to this young fellow as being
2 called Paul Currie. I did not know the man. At that
3 time, Philip knew more people from that part of town.
4 "We bought a carry out and walked down the town out
5 of curiosity to see what was happening. In my
6 statement I said, 'As we went down the town, I seen
7 an ambulance parked on the street somewhere adjacent to
8 Woodhouse Street. I seen a person lying in the middle
9 of the street close to the ambulance'. I didn't
10 recognise the person lying on the ground. He was just
11 lying at the back of the ambulance. That is all I can
12 say.
13 I did see a man I knew from work at the back of the
14 ambulance. Dermot McNeice was standing by the ambulance
15 door and I said, 'That's a fucking joke, something like
16 that to happen'. I can't remember now what Dermot said,
17 but I meant it was a shame for anybody to get a hiding
18 and end up in an ambulance after a night out. I haven't
19 seen Dermot probably since this happened, so I have not
20 discussed the incident with him.
21 "I remember seeing an ambulance man there, but
22 I don't remember seeing anyone kicking anybody. I don't
23 think there were many people around at that time."
24 If we just cut to paragraph 9:
25 "I recall seeing a police Land Rover and recognising
91
1 one of the police officers at the scene. I saw
2 Robert Atkinson halfway up the street by the church."
3 So what we are getting there is, as it were, the
4 back end of the violence in which it seems like the
5 fighting has died down and the police Land Rover is
6 still there. Mr Atkinson is out on the street.
7 Then, finally in this group, I would like to read
8 excerpts of the statement of Conor Black, which we find
9 at [80056]. In paragraph 2 he says:
10 "I was interviewed by the Robert Hamill Inquiry on
11 7 November 2006. Relying on the statement I made on
12 12 May 1997, I can confirm that I went to the
13 Coach Inn on 26 April 1997 with Johnny Nelson,
14 Kyle Magee, Chris Henderson and Stephen Bloomer."
15 He goes on to discuss that. Perhaps we could look
16 at page [09167] and highlight the text. About four
17 lines down he says:
18 "We got the same bus back from the Coach then at
19 about 1.15 am on 27 April 1997, being dropped off at
20 Z Cabs outside the town barriers at about 1.35 or 1.40.
21 Myself and Johnny Nelson went over to Herron's to get
22 something to eat and Johnny spoke to some of his
23 friends. Some time when Johnny was speaking to his
24 friends, Kyle", who is Kyle Magee, "who'd gone up to
25 Boss Hogg's, came back and asked if he were going back to
92
1 my house. I didn't want anyone back so said no. He
2 went off up towards Boss Hogg's again. At Herron's we
3 met another fellow ... who works at the Golden Bridge
4 Chinese. We talked with him and he was going to give us
5 a lift home, when we saw all the ambulances and the 'jam
6 sandwich' police car going round the town. We were in
7 Davy's car at the time, so he took us up round by
8 Northway to the other end of the town to see what was
9 going on, but when we got to Call-a-Cab offices, we got
10 out of Davy's car and saw Kyle. There were police
11 Land Rovers and a patrol car blocking the", overleaf,
12 [09168], "street and quite a few people who seemed to be
13 moving off. Kyle said there'd been a fight. Davy
14 went on home in his car and Kyle, Johnny and I got
15 a Call-a-Cab home."
16 He tells the police there he didn't see anybody
17 involved in the fight. Although the rest of his
18 statement to us, of course, goes in, what I am
19 introducing that for is to give, again, some context to
20 people who had seen an ambulance and perhaps a police
21 car arrive and some sort of timing and who they were
22 with.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: These two witnesses, their evidence is read
24 because they are thought not to be controversial?
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Precisely. Their statements have been served
93
1 on interested parties and affected witnesses. They have
2 been invited to say whether they wanted to ask any
3 questions, but none have been forthcoming.
4 There is one more witness for today, who is
5 Judith Lyttle, who is technically due to attend at
6 2 o'clock. I am hoping that we can call her at 1.45.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. We will adjourn then, we hope,
8 until 1.45 pm.
9 (12.35 pm)
10 (The luncheon adjournment)
11 (1.45 pm)
12 (Proceedings delayed)
13 (2.07 pm)
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Judith Lyttle, please.
15 MS SUSAN JUDITH LYTTLE (sworn)
16 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon.
18 A. Hiya.
19 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
20 I will ask some questions.
21 Can you tell us your full name, please?
22 A. Susan Judith Lyttle.
23 Q. Now, we are interested in what people saw in Portadown
24 in the early hours of the morning of 27th April 1997.
25 I think you were around and about the town on that night
94
1 and I want to do the best I can to provoke your memory
2 about it.
3 If we have a look, please, at page [13319], and pick
4 up the second half of this, this is the note made by
5 a police officer of an interview with Donald Blevins.
6 If I just read to you as best I can what it says and see
7 what help this gives you:
8 "Mr Blevins and his girlfriend Judith Lyttle", and
9 there is an address cut out, "had got off an Ulster bus
10 driven by xxxxxxxxxx at Edenderry at 12.50 hours. Both
11 attended a band parade... [and] walked to Watson Street where
12 they collected Lyttle's car. Drove up to Herron's chip
13 shop. Blevins spoke to", someone whose name we are not
14 concerned with, "and 'Mull' Black. Both girlfriend and
15 he drove to car park, West Street, opposite Call-a-Cab,
16 spoke to a few girls he knew, one of whom is called
17 Tracy, approximately 23 years and separated from her
18 husband/boyfriend. Lives in the new houses."
19 We know that is Tracy McAlpine:
20 "This conversation took place next to Locke Tools.
21 This girl", something, "about fighting down the street.
22 Both he and Judith", if we just pick up the top half of
23 that and go overleaf, [13320]. Some of it is cut off,
24 unfortunately, and we'll never get a better one:
25 "... walked down to the old Intersport shop, where
95
1 Judith", we have lost something there, "thinks the girl,
2 Tracy, stayed there with her."
3 It looks like it is saying you stayed there by the
4 Intersport:
5 "[Something] down the right-hand side of the street.
6 Saw Wayne", I think that's Lunt, "next to Benetton shop.
7 Bent over. Had cider bottle in his hand. Said he
8 helped Lunt up because he had difficulty breathing."
9 Then it goes on after that.
10 A few lines further down on the left-hand side:
11 "States he did not witness the assault. Saw women
12 [something] two fellas on the ground. Saw Rory Robinson
13 in a crowd of people. Town centre. Also saw
14 Mark Currie", and where he works. "He was trying to get
15 people to go home and not get involved. States that he
16 heard the people who carried out the assault had been
17 talking to the police a short time before it happened."
18 Now, we also have -- there will be some questions
19 following all this -- something from a police constable.
20 If we look at page [09231], this is a statement this
21 constable made on 27th April, and he is called
22 James Murphy. Picking this up about six lines down
23 towards the right-hand side:
24 "On our arrival at the High Street, Market Street,
25 Thomas Street junction, I observed a large crowd
96
1 numbering approx 40 to 50 persons. This crowd consisted
2 mainly of males, although there were a few females also
3 present. I also observed two males lying motionless on
4 the street. One male was lying at the entrance to
5 Thomas Street and the second male was lying in
6 Market Street just up from the Thomas Street junction.
7 These two males appeared to be comforted by females whom
8 I presumed had been with them. There was also a lot of
9 broken glass on the street. I was assisting other
10 police present to try and keep the Loyalist and
11 Nationalist elements apart.
12 "After what seemed a long time, an ambulance arrived
13 and, after approx 15 minutes, the ambulance conveyed
14 both the injured males to hospital. During this time,
15 there were quite a number of smaller fights taking place
16 all around us. During the trouble, I observed" somebody
17 we are calling Constable A, "take a youth from the crowd
18 to the Land Rover."
19 [09232]. Then if we go down about half a dozen
20 lines on the right-hand side:
21 "I also observed another male in the Loyalist crowd.
22 This male was trying to calm the situation and trying to
23 get Loyalists to leave the area. I knew this male to be
24 Donald Blevins."
25 Now, that's the picture we have then from those two
97
1 police documents of you being with Donald Blevins,
2 hearing about a fight, where you stayed with, we think,
3 Tracy McAlpine, and what Donald Blevins went to do to
4 try to help out.
5 What I now want you to do is to have a look at the
6 model, please, a night-time scene. We can see here this
7 is taken from the top of Thomas Street. We can see
8 Instep over there and the Land Rover that has been
9 placed here for the purposes of seeing whether witnesses
10 agree that's where it was on the night.
11 Now, with the aid of all that, and bearing in mind
12 this was 12 years ago, I want to take you through,
13 please, what you can remember about the night.
14 Firstly, were you with Donald Blevins on that night?
15 A. I have very little recollection of the night. All I can
16 remember is being at Portadown Locksmiths, which is
17 about two seconds, so ...
18 Q. Where is Portadown Locksmiths?
19 A. It is way up this end.
20 Q. We can turn this to the left.
21 A. See that big tall building, perhaps?
22 Q. I can see -- near the church or where? Do you mean the
23 other side of the church?
24 A. No, away on up past the church.
25 Q. All right.
98
1 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a bit like a block. Is that it?
2 A. Yes. It would be away on up past the church, sort of
3 to -- if you are looking face on the church, to the
4 right.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Does the Intersport shop mean
6 anything to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The impression we are getting from these documents, of
9 course --
10 A. At Instep there?
11 Q. That is an Instep there.
12 A. That shop?
13 Q. We don't know whether the Intersport was --
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. -- mixed up with Instep. The impression we are getting
16 from the documents is that Donald Blevins was
17 a peacemaker, who, having heard about the fight, went
18 down there to try to stop it. Is that the sort of
19 person he was at the time?
20 A. I don't know. It's hard to say.
21 Q. Okay. You realise what we are trying to do here --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- is find out whether the police got out of the
24 Land Rover in time to help Mr Hamill and, if so, what
25 they saw, and what was going on?
99
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Every help you can give us would be very greatly
3 appreciated.
4 A. Well, as I say, I was away up the street. I have two
5 seconds' recollection of being outside
6 Portadown Locksmiths. It is away up the street.
7 I doubt if you would be able to see down the town, and
8 that's really all I have.
9 Q. Do you remember hearing anything?
10 A. No. I can hardly remember ten weeks away, never mind
11 ten years or more.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: All right, Ms Lyttle. Thank you very much.
13 As I say, it may be some other people have some
14 questions.
15 A. Okay.
16 MR WOLFE: No questions, sir.
17 MR ADAIR: No questions, sir.
18 MR McGRORY: No questions.
19 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: No. Thank you very much.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms Lyttle.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you for coming.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 MR UNDERWOOD: No stone left unturned in our attempts to
25 find things that were seen. That does conclude the
100
1 witnesses we have for this week, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 10.30 on Tuesday morning then.
3 (2.15 pm)
4 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am
5 on Tuesday, 24th February 2009)
6
7 --ooOoo--
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
101
1 I N D E X
2
3
MR SIMON McNALLY (sworn) ......................... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 9
5 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA ........... 10
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 15
6
MR PETER ROYSTON MAILE (sworn) ................... 15
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 15
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON. ......... 28
8 Cross-examination by MR MCKENNA ........... 29
9 MS LISA HOBSON (affirmed) ........................ 32
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 32
10 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 50
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 52
11 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA ........... 63
12 MR MARTIN CLEMENT HAMILL (sworn) ................. 72
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 72
13 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 75
Cross-examination by MR McKILLOP .......... 78
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 82
15 MS SUSAN JUDITH LYTTLE (sworn) ................... 94
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 94
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
102
