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Hearing: 19th February 2009, day 19
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 19th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 19
1 Thursday, 19th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. David Morrow, please.
4 MR DAVID JOHN MORROW (sworn)
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Morrow.
7 A. Morning.
8 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
9 I will be asking questions, at least initially.
10 Can I ask you your full names, please?
11 A. David John Morrow.
12 Q. Thank you. Would you have a look, please, at
13 page [09186]? If we just scroll through the pages of
14 that, two pages of that, is that a statement you made to
15 the police on 29th March -- I am so sorry -- on
16 1st May 1997?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Was that statement true?
19 A. That statement was true, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. If you would look at page [80978], please,
21 again, can we scroll through the pages of that just to
22 familiarise yourself with what it is?
23 Is that a statement you made to the Inquiry on
24 29th March 2008?
25 A. That's correct.
1
1 Q. Is that true as well?
2 A. As far as I can remember, from -- because -- I got my
3 original statement about two days before I was down in
4 Belfast with the Inquiry. So the first one would be
5 more accurate --
6 Q. Of course.
7 A. -- than the second one, which is quite a while after.
8 Q. But to the best of your recollection --
9 A. To the best of my recollection.
10 Q. That's all we can ask. I want to ask you about the
11 night of 26th/27th April 1997, of course. To help on
12 that, perhaps I can show you a map, first of all. We
13 have a standard map. Perhaps you can just glance at
14 it for a minute to recollect what the layout of
15 Portadown is.
16 You can see towards the top right-hand we have the
17 barriers where -- I don't know how familiar you are with
18 these -- Boss Hogg's, Herron's Country Fried Chicken,
19 etc, are. Going back down the High Street, we see
20 Edward Street on the left, then Thomas Street on the
21 left, Woodhouse Street on the right, and then it splits
22 with West Street, going away up.
23 You were called out, you tell us, with Mr Stewart
24 and took an ambulance into the town centre in the early
25 hours?
2
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Can you show us your route on here? We can actually do
3 a screen shot of this and you can have control of the
4 screen to write on it. If you just wait a second, we
5 can organise that.
6 If you pick up the pen that's there, you can, if you
7 are dexterous enough, actually write on it. We can
8 probably magnify parts of it. Perhaps we can do it this
9 way to start with. If you can just draw on there the
10 route the ambulance took, that would be very helpful.
11 A. Sorry about the squiggles.
12 Q. That's all right. I am not suggesting you were drunk
13 and driving?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: That route was to avoid the barriers, I take
15 it.
16 A. That's correct, sir. The barriers are closed at that
17 time. Sorry, about this.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: No, no. You have it stopping there pretty
19 much at the top of Thomas Street. Is that right?
20 A. That's right. Somewhere about there.
21 Q. While you are here and have the pen in your hand, we
22 know you encountered two people, one of whom was on the
23 ground and remained on the ground, and one of whom was
24 on the ground at some point. I don't know whether he
25 was on the ground when you arrived.
3
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Can you mark for us, as best you can recall, where those
3 two people on the ground were?
4 A. I would roughly say -- maybe a wee bit over. That
5 second one is maybe over a wee bit.
6 Q. We call those locations 1 and 2. You are satisfied, are
7 you, they were to the left of Thomas Street, if you had
8 been walking up Thomas Street?
9 A. That's correct.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Just for the shorthand note, that's in the
11 central reservation in Market Street.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Just wait until that's captured. Then I'd
13 like to have you look at a model, if I may, that we will
14 bring up on screen.
15 Again, this is as much to familiarise yourself with
16 it as anything else. We can spin this round
17 360 degrees. You are looking down High Street there.
18 This is the top of Thomas Street. Now, we are looking
19 down Thomas Street. This is Eastwoods Clothing. Here
20 you are looking away up to the church, West Street, over
21 into Woodhouse Street. If we just go round a little bit
22 further and stop it there, you have a pretty good view
23 of the junction here.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I know from your statements that your concern was with
4
1 casualties rather than the police, but, doing the best
2 you can now, can you give us the impression that you had
3 when you drove up here? Were there people in the
4 street? Did you have to avoid the people in the street?
5 A. There were people in the street, yes.
6 Q. What were they doing?
7 A. They seemed to be taunting each other and -- like two
8 rival factors.
9 Q. Were they neatly divided or were they in groups or what?
10 A. I don't think they were neatly divided. They were more
11 in -- like, facing each other.
12 Q. Did you get any impression of the numbers and the
13 relative numbers, importantly? Dozens?
14 A. Dozens. Sort of maybe between 20 and 30. That's what
15 I can recall now.
16 Q. Again, doing the best you can, did there seem to be
17 roughly equal numbers on both sides or was one side much
18 bigger than the other?
19 A. I couldn't answer that. I don't know.
20 Q. All right. We know there came a point where police
21 formed a line and they, as it were, marched one group
22 back up towards West Street. So that would have been
23 a fairly neat line of people. Are you describing
24 a line like that or --
25 A. No, no.
5
1 Q. -- just a stand-off?
2 A. Just sort of like a stand-off taunting each other and
3 maybe a few mingling in this, but ...
4 Q. Did you just get a snapshot of this or were you able to
5 watch it?
6 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't take much ...
7 Q. Where were you on this? Again, we can mark on this. We
8 can give the facility to do a snapshot. It will take
9 a second to come on.
10 Again, can you help us by squiggling, or however you
11 can best do it?
12 A. There were actually people up at sort of Thomas Street
13 round this end too. There were people. You know, they
14 weren't just up the High Street here or Market Street,
15 up this. They were not just up that direction. There
16 was people round here too.
17 Q. All right. Just help us with the marker, if you would.
18 We know this photograph we are looking at here was taken
19 from just outside Eastwoods.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. So we are looking slightly across Thomas Street. We see
22 a little bit of the pavement on Thomas Street there.
23 Were they where the photograph was taken from?
24 A. There would have been people -- there was people here.
25 Q. Again, if you can mark.
6
1 A. Right. There was people round about here.
2 Q. That will be location 3?
3 A. As we were coming up, there was a few people down here,
4 down this direction, but they weren't the main crowd
5 down this direction.
6 Q. That will be location 4 for us.
7 A. The main crowd were up sort of round this area here.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: That was, as we look at it, on the left-hand
9 side, more or less in the mouth of Thomas Street. Is
10 that it?
11 A. Slightly left as you are looking down out of
12 Thomas Street, slightly to the left of Thomas Street.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Just wait while these numbers are captured.
14 We need number 5 on the two dots at the left.
15 So the action was spread out across the junction
16 then?
17 A. It was spread out, more to the left-hand side of the
18 junction looking out of Thomas Street on to the main
19 street.
20 Q. Uh-huh. Again, unfortunately we need to go back to the
21 original model of this and pan it round to the left
22 a bit, so we get a decent view of this. If we pause it
23 there.
24 A. That's a better view there.
25 Q. Again, we can do a screen shot for you here so that you
7
1 can mark. Again, doing the best you can, perhaps you
2 could help where the two people were on the ground on
3 this model, because that might actually give us a better
4 contrast.
5 Again, we can call those -- it might be helpful if
6 we call those 1 and 2 again
7 THE CHAIRMAN: For the sake of the shorthand note, both are
8 to the left of Thomas Street. Number 1 is closer to the
9 central reservation and number 2 is closer to the
10 pavement on the Thomas Street side.
11 A. That's correct.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: While I don't want to jump ahead more than is
13 necessary here, at some point you know one of those is
14 Robert Hamill?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Can you just tell us whether that was number 1 or
17 number 2?
18 A. Number 1 was Robert Hamill.
19 Q. So the crowd were squaring up to each other quite close
20 to these two. Would that be right?
21 A. That would be right.
22 Q. Again, if I push your memory too far, you will no doubt
23 tell me. Do you think the crowd were squaring up to
24 each other with these two between the crowds, if you see
25 what I mean?
8
1 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer. I couldn't answer
2 that.
3 Q. You had to get to them, obviously. Did you have to walk
4 through one side or other of the crowd to get to the
5 people on the ground?
6 A. We just walked on through. We didn't worry about the
7 crowd really.
8 Q. Can you help us about whether the crowd were between the
9 ambulance and the people on the ground?
10 A. I'm sorry. No. I'm sorry. I can't.
11 Q. All right. You say they were taunting each other. You
12 say they were mixing in from time to time with each
13 other?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was the atmosphere towards you?
16 A. Well, we got a few thumps on the side of the ambulance
17 coming up a wee bit further down the road as we were
18 coming up, because the town was actually, for that time
19 of night, quite busy with people -- not just people
20 there. There were people coming up the town as well,
21 you know, where they had been --
22 Q. From the Boss Hogg's end?
23 A. From sort of Boss Hogg's end, yes.
24 Q. Once you got out of the ambulance, again I know you must
25 have been concentrating on doing your job, but did you
9
1 feel any threat to you?
2 A. No, not personally towards myself or my crew mate.
3 Q. Can you help us with what was going on directly around
4 the two people on the ground? Was anybody trying to get
5 at them? Was anybody trying to comfort them?
6 A. Well, at number 1, which I know was Robert Hamill, there
7 was two ladies down over him attending to him.
8 Q. Okay. What was his situation?
9 A. He was unconscious at that stage.
10 Q. Can you recall -- again, tell me if I'm pressing you too
11 far -- was he in the recovery position, on his back or
12 what?
13 A. He may have been. I can't answer that truthfully.
14 Q. Okay. If you can't, you can't. Did you go directly to
15 him again, as best you can recall?
16 A. I think my mate might have went to him first.
17 Q. Uh-huh. We know that the other person -- we may as well
18 just call him number 2?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Number 2 got into the ambulance as a sort of walking
21 wounded, I think.
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. So there was obviously less concern.
24 A. Less concern, uh-huh.
25 Q. So did both of you end you looking at number 1 or did
10
1 your crew mate --
2 A. I think my crew mate was with number 1. I went back to
3 get the stretcher out, and I think before I went to get
4 the stretcher out, when we were arriving at the scene,
5 we called for another vehicle, another ambulance, but
6 there was none available to us. So we got the stretcher
7 out, went over to number 1, got him onto the stretcher,
8 put him into the ambulance.
9 Q. That's a two-man task, I take it?
10 A. That's a two-man task, yes.
11 Q. Doing the best you can now, can you recall whether you
12 saw any injuries on number 1, Mr Hamill?
13 A. There was a few abrasions and bruises round his head.
14 Q. In your statements you say there was no particular
15 breathing problem. You gave him oxygen in the
16 ambulance.
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. There is no criticism whatever here. Nobody is
19 suggesting that you and your crew mate did anything
20 wrong or that there was anything that you should have
21 done that you didn't do. What we are interested in is
22 whether the police -- and I will come to them -- who
23 might have seen him at that time would have realised how
24 seriously injured he might have been. That's why I am
25 going to ask you questions about that.
11
1 We have seen some materials to suggest that at some
2 point, I think probably before you arrived, people had
3 heard him -- that's Robert Hamill -- breathing in such
4 a rasping way that somebody thought he had been stabbed.
5 Can you help us about whether there was anything
6 like that
7 A. I can't recall anything like that. Sorry.
8 Q. We have also seen some materials which suggest there was
9 some liquid around Mr Hamill's head. Some people
10 thought it was blood. Some people thought it was
11 something from a broken bottle. Again, can you help us
12 with that?
13 A. I can recall there was a bottle lying nearby and I took
14 it it was maybe liquid from the bottle, because we do
15 a -- a hand round his head to see was there any
16 haemorrhaging round his head, and there was a liquid,
17 but we took it it was from a bottle lying nearby.
18 Q. You would have actually checked to see if it was blood
19 from his head, would you?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Again, just dealing with the injury for the moment, we
22 know that when you delivered Mr Hamill to the hospital,
23 somebody told the hospital staff that he may have been
24 hit in the head with a bottle. There is a question mark
25 against it in the notes.
12
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. We have obviously sought evidence from the casualty
3 staff to see whether they can help us with who said
4 that. They think it was the ambulance crew who would
5 have given that impression. Again, to be fair, it had
6 a question mark against it.
7 Is it, or was it, your practice to report to the
8 casualty staff what it is you thought had happened?
9 A. That's correct. It is, yes.
10 Q. Can you remember reporting in this particular case?
11 A. No. I could have at the time. I can't recall.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Although I do remember seeing a bottle nearby the scene.
14 So I could very well have told the nursing staff, but
15 I can't answer that truthfully.
16 Q. All right.
17 There is some reason to believe some bottles broke
18 on the ambulance itself. Do you recall that?
19 A. That's correct. Yes, there was.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: So if you did say you thought he might have
21 been hit by a bottle, that was based on simply seeing
22 the bottle and the liquid on his head?
23 A. That's correct, sir.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Now, I want to ask you about timing, if I
25 may. You tell us -- if we go back to your page [80978]
13
1 in your witness statement, at paragraph 4 you tell us
2 that there was a form AS1 -- we can have a look at
3 that -- which then got the details of the call-out. You
4 tell us there you have been shown a copy of it. In the
5 third sentence you say:
6 "A code was punched into the mobile phone by the
7 crew in the ambulance which records the time
8 automatically at ambulance control. There were
9 different codes for when the ambulance went mobile,
10 arrived at the scene, left the scene and arrived at the
11 hospital."
12 Do you recall that system now?
13 A. I do, but that's not correct. It is not a mobile phone.
14 It is a radio.
15 Q. As far as you were concerned, it was a push-button job.
16 You didn't take a note of the time when you arrived and
17 left.
18 A. No, I didn't take a note of the time. It is just you
19 hit in -- you send a coded number and that is -- means
20 arrived. Say, for instance, 1 is arrived, 2 is leaving.
21 It is in through the radio system. It is keyed into the
22 radio.
23 Q. I take it you weren't responsible for setting the time
24 on those?
25 A. No, no, no.
14
1 MR McGRORY: Sir, it would be helpful if we could have those
2 documents.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: We are just about to see them.
4 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: If we look at those at page [08153], I just
6 want to take you through. For a start, if we look at
7 this and page [08154], is this the form AS1 we are
8 talking about?
9 A. I presume -- that is the form. It would be actually
10 control would be dealing with those forms. That's the
11 control side.
12 Q. Exactly. We see various names on it, including
13 Mrs Leonard, who took the message. Just see what help
14 you can give us with this. If you look down the final
15 section which starts "To call - method - location", etc,
16 against the number 1 you have 322. That's the code for
17 your ambulance?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. "Method: TP. Location: A&E, CAH. Time: 0152. Passed:
20 To GS By RL."
21 That's to Glen Stewart from Ruth Leonard?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Then we see:
24 "At scene: 0158. Left scene: 0202. Hospital
25 arrived: 0209. Clear: 0210."
15
1 Are those times the times that would have come from
2 you punching the code into the machine?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Then if we go to page [08154] we see the activation and
5 response time, the receiving hospital:
6 "Total casualties: 4."
7 If we go down to the second half of the page:
8 "Notes: requested second vehicle at 0202 - no
9 vehicle to send."
10 That chimes with what you told us earlier.
11 Can you just help us on why you asked for a second
12 vehicle?
13 A. Usually when you are coming into a scene, you are
14 surveying it mentally in your head. If you see more
15 than one patient that seems to be unconscious, you
16 request a second vehicle, because, officially, you can
17 only look after one unconscious patient in a vehicle.
18 If you have two unconscious patients in a vehicle, you
19 can't look after both of them. You are not giving them
20 proper treatment, if you like to call it that.
21 Q. I see. Just help us with the timing on that. It is not
22 your note, I know. It says:
23 "Requested second vehicle at 0202."
24 By then you were leaving. Obviously, you would have
25 had -- we will come on to it -- many more than two
16
1 people in the back of the ambulance.
2 Are you likely to have requested it as you were
3 leaving, or as you were arriving, as you told us
4 earlier?
5 A. As I said, probably arriving. I don't know whether
6 that's timed precisely, that call there. there is no
7 code to put in for that on the radio. So that could be
8 just a time, you know.
9 Q. It may be a discrepancy, perhaps, between the timings?
10 A. That's right, because I would nearly be 100% sure that
11 I would have asked for it when I was arriving.
12 Q. I only raise it for this possibility: is it conceivable
13 that, as you were leaving, you saw that there was still
14 fighting going on and you thought there may be more
15 casualties, more need for an ambulance?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Again, going back to the numbers, you get "4 pts", four
18 patients, "1 unconscious, 3 walking wounded."
19 What was going on there? From your normal position
20 of only having one unconscious person in the back of
21 an ambulance, you end up with a cast of four?
22 A. Walking wounded, they are no risk to themselves. So
23 unconscious -- you can have three walking wounded
24 sitting upright. They are breathing okay. They are
25 sitting on the stretcher at the side where the
17
1 unconscious patient is in the recovery position on the
2 stretcher and you can look at them. Walking wounded is
3 sitting up. There is no life-threatening injuries to
4 those.
5 Q. Fine.
6 A. Usually, you don't take that many in an ambulance. It
7 is just that we couldn't get another vehicle.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Does the reference to three walking wounded
9 mean that there were three people still on their feet
10 who came in the ambulance as patients?
11 A. That's correct, sir.
12 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Only three?
13 A. Presumably. I can't recall. I can't recall.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: How would that information, the fact you were
15 carrying four people, have got to the person compiling
16 this form? Would you have radioed that through?
17 A. That would probably have been put through, yes, and also
18 maybe the names put through to control.
19 Q. Were you manning the radio? Can you recall?
20 A. I would have been. I would have been on the radio,
21 because I was driving back in.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Mr Stewart was in the back with the patients.
24 Q. Okay. If we can go back to the night model now, please,
25 I want to ask you about police now. Again, doing the
18
1 best you can after all this time, can you help us about
2 whether there was police presence at all?
3 A. I can't really. I can't. I can't recall. I can only
4 go by my first statement given to the police. I can't
5 recall.
6 Q. All right. We will leave that model up on the screen
7 while I refresh your memory from the statement.
8 In that, you talk about a hostile crowd of people,
9 two injured persons lying on the ground.
10 Naturally in it you concentrate on the treatment
11 that you gave or the way in which you administered to
12 the people on the ground
13 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the statement to the police?
14 MR UNDERWOOD: It is the statement to the police at [09186].
15 It is no criticism, but you don't appear to have been
16 asked to deal in that statement with whether you
17 recalled any police activity.
18 In paragraph 11 -- and again, I don't think it is
19 necessary to go to it at the moment -- of the statement
20 you gave to the Inquiry, you say you know there were
21 police at the scene, but you didn't pay much attention
22 to them.
23 What I am trying to do is tease out, as best
24 I possibly can, anything you can help us with about what
25 you might have seen of police presence at the time
19
1 A. I can't, no.
2 Q. No? Let me ask you a more general question about the
3 area then.
4 Is this an area of Portadown to which you had been
5 called before?
6 A. Well, there had been a few occasions called to -- there
7 is a few pubs up Thomas Street. It would be more
8 actually up the Thomas Street end than down at sort of
9 the main street end.
10 Q. Uh-huh?
11 A. Because you have Jamesons Bar, you have the
12 British Legion and you have St Patrick's Hall all up
13 there and you get a few calls up to all three of the
14 places.
15 Q. So it wouldn't have been uncommon for you to turn up on
16 a Saturday night/Sunday morning?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. In your experience of turning up there after some
19 trouble in the general area before April 1997, had you
20 experienced a police presence before?
21 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't take much notice.
22 Q. Let's just go back to the crowd then. You have told us
23 what the crowd were doing. You got some bangs on the
24 side of the ambulance on your way up, some bottles
25 broken on it. There was the stand-off with the taunting
20
1 and so on as you were going on.
2 In respect of the two people on the ground, when you
3 approached them, there were two girls around Mr Hamill.
4 Nobody was attacking either of the men on the ground.
5 Is that a fair summary of the situation?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Have you any other recollection of any other activity on
8 the part of the crowd after you got there? Was the
9 situation the same as when you left or did you just not
10 pay attention to it?
11 A. There was a bit of shouting and a bit of that, but you
12 just -- you go about your duty and you don't ...
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Your concern was the job you had been called
14 out to do?
15 A. That's right, sir.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I realise I am pushing.
17 A. I am sorry if I am not much help to you.
18 Q. It is no criticism at all. We know some back-up police
19 arrived. They may have done it quite noisily with blue
20 flashing lights and sirens. Have you any recollection
21 of that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I think I have possibly pushed you as far as I can
24 possibly push you.
25 A. Sirens mean nothing to me when we use them ourselves.
21
1 So you don't think nothing of them. It is what you call
2 an occupational hazard.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: All right, Mr Morrow. As I said earlier,
4 some people may have some questions for you. That's all
5 from me.
6 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
7 MR FERGUSON: Mr Morrow, in your statement to the Inquiry
8 what you said about the presence of police at the scene
9 was:
10 "I know that there were police at the scene when we
11 arrived."
12 Now, that's an affirmative. That's you telling the
13 Inquiry, at that stage, that you knew that there were
14 police at the scene when you arrived. Would that be
15 accurate?
16 A. I would say that's accurate.
17 Q. Because I am sure, no doubt, you would have gone to
18 a lot of trouble to make sure what you were telling the
19 Inquiry was true, to the best of your knowledge and
20 belief.
21 A. That's correct, sir.
22 Q. Now, in April 1997, how long had you been in the
23 ambulance force by that time?
24 A. The ambulance service?
25 Q. The ambulance service.
22
1 A. Well, I am 37 years in it now. So count back from then.
2 Q. So you were a man of some experience --
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. -- back then?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Particularly on the weekend, would you have frequently
7 been called out to the scene of various incidents in
8 Portadown in or around that time?
9 A. Well, you would, surely. It is, as we would call it,
10 a normal Saturday night or Friday night.
11 Q. A normal Saturday night in Portadown?
12 A. Area. I am not saying Portadown as in Portadown. We
13 cover quite a large area, Banbridge and all.
14 Q. I see. On arrival, you found Mr Hamill unconscious
15 certainly, but breathing with a good pulse?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. No recollection of any great blood loss?
18 A. No, sir, no.
19 Q. You are at pains to point out:
20 "I would have recalled a large wound, because that
21 would have required dressing."
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. So there was nothing that required dressing?
24 A. Nothing required dressing, no.
25 Q. He had a good colour?
23
1 A. We didn't know until we got him into the ambulance. The
2 lighting wasn't that good outside.
3 Q. When you got him in, he had a good colour?
4 A. He had a good colour.
5 Q. That was an indication he was receiving adequate oxygen?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. It is very difficult, I am sure, to have a scale of
8 values, if that be the appropriate word, for injured
9 people, but to all intents and purposes, from what you
10 could see at that time, he was somebody certainly who
11 was unconscious, but other than that, you didn't see any
12 sign of any complication or anything in particular to
13 worry about?
14 A. No, just a few bruises round the head and maybe
15 abrasions, nothing that looked over-serious.
16 MR FERGUSON: Correct. Thank you very much.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
18 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
19 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
20 Just two matters I want to touch upon briefly with
21 you, Mr Morrow.
22 You have told Mr Underwood already that there were
23 two groups who appeared to you to be hostile to each
24 other, shouting at each other effectively. Is that
25 right?
24
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. You have also said that when you arrived and went to the
3 injured people, nobody attacked them or attempted to
4 attack them?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Could you see what was preventing the hostile crowds,
7 either one of the hostile crowds from attacking the
8 people any further?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. But were the hostile crowds being kept apart? In other
11 words, they were not fighting at the time you arrived?
12 A. They were not fighting at the time we arrived, that's
13 right.
14 Q. But something or somebody was keeping them apart?
15 A. That's correct.
16 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
18 MR McGRORY: Sir, if I may, I have some questions for
19 Mr Morrow.
20 I want to ask you some questions on behalf of the
21 Hamill family, Mr Morrow, and I will not keep you too
22 long.
23 You said in your statement to the Inquiry at
24 paragraph 11, which I think is [80980], that you were
25 keen to leave as quickly as possible, since you were
25
1 a little afraid of "our safety as well as the safety of
2 the injured".
3 You have said a little bit earlier in the statement,
4 a couple of paragraphs above that, that when you
5 arrived, some members of the crowd were thumping the
6 side of the ambulance. Do you remember that?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And maybe kicking it as you had approached?
9 A. That's correct, sir.
10 Q. Can we take it that -- I mean, they weren't thumping it
11 or kicking it to welcome you, that this was a hostile
12 action?
13 A. It's a thing you just -- it has happened and has
14 happened before. You know, it does happen. Probably
15 people with a lot of alcohol in them.
16 Q. Would it be fair to describe it as an aggressive kicking
17 and thumping?
18 A. I would say it would be.
19 Q. It certainly put you in the frame of mind that your
20 safety was at risk, because that's what you have told
21 the Inquiry?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. You even feared for the safety of the injured at this
24 point?
25 A. That's correct, sir.
26
1 Q. Indeed, at paragraph 16 of your statement you go on to
2 say again that you "wanted to get away to the hospital as
3 quickly as possible, because the crowd was very hostile"?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. So can we take it from that that your impression was, if
6 you didn't get these injured out of there, they were
7 still very much at risk?
8 A. It could flare up again or something, yes.
9 Q. Would that possibly have motivated you to take the
10 walking wounded, that you feared for their safety?
11 A. No, because I think they just got into the ambulance.
12 They got themselves into the ambulance. Maybe that was
13 for them to get out of the way for their own safety.
14 Q. Was your impression that they feared for their safety?
15 A. It could well have been. I couldn't, you know ...
16 Q: Now, there is only one other -- sorry. That's
17 everything. Thank you very much.
18 MS DINSMORE: Just one point, if I may, Mr Chairman.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
20 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
21 MS DINSMORE: I wonder could we have the model up again,
22 please? Would it be possible to call up the model with
23 the 1 and 2 marked on it by the witness? Thank you.
24 Now, so far as your recall goes, 1 represents where
25 Mr Hamill was lying. Is that correct?
27
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. 2 was the other gentleman who is referred to in the
3 papers as D. You may not know of D --
4 A. No.
5 Q. -- but you know who the gentleman was in any event. He
6 is one of the walking wounded that you took to hospital.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Now, you have described in some detail the circumstances
9 which you were working under; that there were two
10 groups, that there was shouting, there was taunting and
11 obviously the focus of where you were at was dealing
12 with the two injured people?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. The point that I want to put to you in those
15 circumstances is: are you certain that that was the
16 position of number 2?
17 A. Well, it was maybe nearer the footpath, but I am just --
18 you know, as roughly as ...
19 Q. You see, I have to suggest to you that my client would
20 agree roughly with the positioning of number 1, but in
21 relation to number 2, his recall is that number 2 was
22 lying in the middle of the road parallel to Number 7
23 Bakery. Do you know where Number 7 Bakery is?
24 Perhaps, would it be good enough if the model could
25 be turned round?
28
1 A. That is back down the road. No.
2 Q. If the model could be turned round, there is
3 Number 7 Bakery. If it could be stopped there, you can
4 see that's at the junction of Thomas Street.
5 A. Definitely not. There was nobody lying round that area
6 that I can recall.
7 Q. You see, I am suggesting in the middle of the road
8 parallel to Number 7.
9 A. No. Not that I can recall now.
10 Q. But your recall --
11 A. What I seen lying was up where number 1 and number 2, up
12 at that area not far from each other. One might have
13 been nearer the footpath than -- Mr Hamill was over sort
14 of towards of the central reservation of the road.
15 Q. Can I just clarify with you: are you saying Mr Hamill
16 was not only parallel, but a little further up or
17 a little further down to number 2?
18 A. I am sorry. I can't recall that.
19 Q. You can't remember?
20 A. No.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: As I understand it, were you able to take in
22 both men at the same glance?
23 A. Number 2 was able to get up himself.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: When you saw them, were you able to see them
25 both?
29
1 A. Looking forward, I seen one there and one there, that's
2 correct, sir.
3 MS DINSMORE: But your whole recall is in the difficult
4 circumstances you have outlined to the Inquiry.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I have to suggest to you that you may be a little
7 mistaken in relation to the exact position.
8 A. Well, if I am mistaken, I am mistaken, but I am going by
9 what I think in my head.
10 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
11 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb.
13 MR McCOMB: Really just one small matter. You have
14 described the people that you have mentioned as 1 and 2.
15 We know who 1 was and we know that 2 was the other man
16 who had been on the ground but was able to get up
17 himself.
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Can you give us any assistance at all about the other
20 two walking wounded who got into your ambulance?
21 A. I am sorry. I can't.
22 Q. You don't have any recall of them, what their condition
23 was, whether they were sober or drunk or anything else?
24 A. I think they had a few drinks in them and they got in
25 and sat down. No bother out of them, like.
30
1 Q. But you described them as "walking wounded". There was
2 something wrong with them.
3 A. Nothing serious. Maybe a glance, a blow, you know, not
4 much.
5 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
6 Questions from REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON
7 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Can I just ask if either
8 of those two were women, or were they both men, the
9 walking wounded?
10 A. Men.
11 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: There were no women in
12 the ambulance with you?
13 A. Not that I can recall.
14 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You say that there was no serious injury that
16 you could see in the man who was still unconscious when
17 he was put into the ambulance --
18 A. No. There was nothing --
19 Q. -- as far as his state of unconsciousness is concerned?
20 A. It is serious enough, like, as it is.
21 Q. But you don't really know what might be going on inside?
22 A. That's correct. There was no obvious wounds as such for
23 haemorrhaging, no.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you. Thank you very
31
1 much indeed. That concludes your evidence.
2 A. Thank you, sir.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you for coming.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 A. Thank you.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Christopher Henderson, please.
8 MR CHRISTOPHER JAMES ANDREW HENDERSON (affirmed)
9 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Henderson.
11 A. Morning.
12 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
13 I will ask questions to start with. It may be, after
14 that, a few other people will ask a few others.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Can I ask you your full name and address -- sorry -- not
17 address. Your full name?
18 A. It is Christopher James Andrew Henderson.
19 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about events of
20 27th April 1997 in the early hours. Let me tell you
21 what we are doing here. We are asking everybody who we
22 know was around the centre of Portadown in the morning
23 of that day to come along and tell us what they can
24 recall about it?
25 A. Okay.
32
1 Q. One of the things, one of the very important things the
2 Inquiry has to work out is whether police in the
3 Land Rover could have seen Mr Hamill getting injured and
4 could and should have got out and done anything about
5 it. So what we are trying to do is reconstruct, as best
6 we can, how quickly events started, what the police must
7 have been able to see and hear and what, if anything,
8 people saw them doing.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Nobody is seeking to criticise any individuals on the
11 street. All we are attempting to do is find out what
12 happened.
13 With that in mind, can I ask you to look at two
14 things? I want you to look at a map and a model.
15 Firstly, the map. What we have on the screen at the
16 moment is one which shows Market Street, West Street and
17 High Street all running up broadly from lower left to
18 top right on the map. You can see that toward the top
19 right-hand corner at A, B and C there are some markings
20 which denote an area round which there is a barrier and
21 some shops. Herron's Country Fried Chicken was at 'A'. 'C'
22 was Boss Hogg's.
23 On the night, did you arrive there by bus from the
24 Coach Inn?
25 A. No.
33
1 Q. How did you arrive?
2 A. I arrived through a lift from a friend. I was --
3 I believe I got the bus to the Coach but I got a lift
4 from a friend back.
5 Q. Right. Where did the lift drop you?
6 A. From recollection and from my statement, I believe it
7 dropped me around the area of between A and B.
8 Q. Right. What were you proposing to do after that?
9 A. Probably get some food, find out if there was a party.
10 That was probably it.
11 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you actually did do then?
12 Did you go to Boss Hogg's or any of those others?
13 A. I don't recall going to Boss Hogg's. I remember getting
14 dropped off. I may have gone into Herron's for a bite
15 to eat. I was fairly intoxicated at the time. It would
16 have been very probable that I went to Herron's, got
17 a bite to eat and then stood around for a period of
18 time.
19 Q. Okay. Did you then walk up the street?
20 A. I believe I probably waited around. From my
21 recollection, I waited around that area. I didn't walk
22 up immediately.
23 Q. Okay. After you had either got food or hung around and
24 perhaps joined up with other people, did you work your
25 way up the street at some point?
34
1 A. I didn't work my way up the street. You have to bear
2 with me, it was quite a long time ago.
3 Q. Yes, of course.
4 A. From my recollection I didn't go up the street because
5 there was a commotion of some sort up the town. I can't
6 remember exactly what that commotion consisted of in
7 terms of -- you know, I can't visually say exactly what
8 it was, but I can remember not wanting to go up the
9 town, to walk up the middle of the town.
10 Q. Can you recall where you did go?
11 A. I believe I waited in the area for a period of time.
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. Then afterwards, after a period of time, I would assume
14 I walked up -- I can't remember exactly, but I believe
15 I walked up through the centre of the town.
16 Q. Okay. Did you end up at Tracy McAlpine's house?
17 A. I believe so from my statement.
18 Q. I want to show you the model now. What we have here is
19 something -- we can move this around from side to side
20 if we need to. For the moment, I think we can be
21 content with this view. This shows basically a snapshot
22 from the top of Thomas Street looking over into
23 Woodhouse Street. To the right is down the High Street.
24 Up to the left, out of our view at the moment, is the
25 church and West Street. We have put a Land Rover there.
35
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Can you help us about what was going on when you did
3 eventually work your way up the street? Was the
4 Land Rover there, do you remember?
5 A. I don't recall seeing a Land Rover. If I am honest,
6 I don't actually recall how I got up through the middle
7 of the town, if I am honest.
8 Q. Right. Okay. Let me put to you some documents that
9 were made nearer the time and see if that helps you.
10 The first one at page [09602] is a statement of
11 12th May 1997, apparently made by you. Do you recall
12 making this?
13 A. I recall speaking to the police. I don't remember, you
14 know, the specifics of the interview, but I remember
15 speaking to the police, yes.
16 Q. If we highlight the text, you tell us in the first half
17 of it basically about the early part of the night where
18 you were at the disco. You got a lift back.
19 Pick it up about halfway down through this: you were
20 dropped off outside Herron's, as you told us.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. This would have been around 1.45 or 2 o'clock:
23 "Outside Herron's I met with Conor", that's
24 Conor Black", and Johnny", that's Jonathan Nelson,
25 "again. I saw ambulances up in the centre of town but
36
1 didn't go up then. We stood about and talked for
2 quite some time, almost an hour. I don't recall any
3 mention of what had happened up the town other than
4 someone saying there's been a fight up the town. Some
5 time after 3.00 am, I walked up the town myself, but
6 there was nothing happening there then."
7 Again, I have to push your memory as far as I can.
8 If you tell me you simply can't remember something,
9 that's fine, but with the aid of that and a comment
10 there about ambulances, does that jog your memory at all
11 about what you might have seen?
12 A. If I said I saw ambulances, as this was closer to the
13 time, then I would say I saw an ambulance. I really
14 don't recall now.
15 Q. Okay. We know that this was an area, that's the area of
16 the crossroads in Portadown, where trouble flared up.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It has been called a flash point. Were you aware of
19 that in 1997?
20 A. I was aware that that -- yes, that street was a flash
21 point, as you say.
22 Q. Had you personally seen or experienced any trouble
23 there?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If we then go to page [02274], I know you have been
37
1 shown this in the course of being interviewed for the
2 Inquiry, but let's have a look at this again. It is
3 a message form. It is recorded by a Detective
4 Constable Williamson on 13th May 1997, so the day after
5 you gave your statement.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. It says:
8 "From re-interview of Christopher Henderson ..."
9 It goes on to talk about your movements after
10 2 o'clock on 27th April. Again, in the second and third
11 lines you say:
12 "Stated he stayed at the bottom of the town until
13 around 3.00 am."
14 Then in the final four lines you talk about
15 Tracy McAlpine's house. It says:
16 "Getting to the house at approximately 5.00 am in
17 the morning. There were about five people in the living
18 room. Some more were asleep upstairs. Doesn't know
19 who, but Tracey McAlpine was apparently in bed asleep."
20 If we go to the next page, [02275] you identify
21 people who were in the living room and you say there:
22 "Allister Hanvey, possibly Dean Forbes (unsure) and a girl,
23 Kelly Lavery."
24 P46 we have blanked out there, that's someone called
25 Stephen Sinnamon. Do you recall those people being
38
1 present now?
2 A. It was a long time ago. The one that sticks in my mind
3 is Kelly Lavery, I believe, because she was the reason
4 we basically left or I left the party, because of
5 an incident.
6 Q. She tells us she woke up and found that people had been
7 painting her face with make-up, I think, and she got
8 upset about it?
9 A. As was her right to.
10 Q. Looking further down this, you describe that more or
11 less in the centre of this page:
12 "She woke up and was annoyed, which resulted in
13 everybody been being thrown out. Henderson walked back
14 through the town with Allister Hanvey. They got a taxi
15 from Z Cabs up home. (Can't be sure. Thinks possibly
16 Jason McClure ('Jasey')... was with him, but it may have
17 been another weekend. He was drunk and most weekends
18 are alike). Can't say what Hanvey was wearing."
19 Now, I want to ask you about that part of the night.
20 You arrive there about 5 o'clock and stay there for some
21 time until Kelly Lavery realises the atrocity with her
22 make-up. Then everybody gets thrown out and you walk
23 down to Z Cabs with Allister Hanvey and perhaps
24 Jason McClure.
25 Can you help us with the time that might have been?
39
1 A. I couldn't say now because of the time elapsed between
2 now and then. From that, you know, I said -- what time
3 did I say there? 5 o'clock. It must have been --
4 I believe -- I have some recollection of it being light,
5 potentially being light. So I would say, you know, it
6 was very early morning.
7 Q. Let's see if I can help you with this. When you walked
8 through the town, would you have had to pass the
9 crossroads?
10 A. Sorry, the flash point?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We know that was taped off at 7.27 in the morning and
14 there would have been police stationed there at that
15 point. Can you recall whether it was taped off when you
16 walked past it?
17 A. I vaguely recall seeing a police officer. Whether he
18 was taping off, I can't recall, but I do recall seeing
19 a police officer at that point.
20 Q. Okay. We also know that Allister Hanvey's cash card was
21 used a little after 8.30 to get some cash out in the
22 middle of Portadown. Again, with the assistance of
23 that, would you accept that it might have been around
24 then, 8.30 or so, that you hit the middle of town?
25 A. I couldn't say exactly. Apologies.
40
1 Q. All right. No recollection of anybody having to stop
2 for cash for the taxi, for example?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can you help us with what happened with catching the
5 taxi? Did you both, you and Allister Hanvey and
6 Jason McClure, all catch one cab?
7 A. Yes, that's my understanding.
8 Q. Where did it take you all? Did you all live nearby each
9 other?
10 A. I can't remember where Jason lived. Well, at that time
11 I lived out towards the hospital, Kernon area.
12 Q. We will have to look at a map to satisfy ourselves
13 about, where we think it might be.
14 A. I believe we were all in the one taxi, yes.
15 Q. It was taking you all out of town then, was it, to near
16 where you lived?
17 A. I can't remember. It is quite some time ago.
18 Q. Do you remember where Allister Hanvey lived at that
19 time?
20 A. I can't recall.
21 Q. Did you know his uncle Thomas?
22 A. No. I know he had an uncle, but ...
23 Q. Okay. You were asked at various stages, and we have
24 seen one of the occasions, whether you could remember
25 what Allister Hanvey was wearing that night.
41
1 Can I ask you about a silver jacket that there is
2 evidence he may have been wearing? It is a short
3 bomber-type jacket, very thin material with orange
4 stripes down the sleeves. Have you any recollection of
5 such a jacket?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you any recollection of him wearing a blue Puffa
8 jacket, a Daniel Poole jacket, with a cross on the back?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or a black CAT jacket?
11 A. I can't recall.
12 Q. I know it is a long time ago and you may not have been
13 asked about this before. What I want to ask you about
14 is conversations that night.
15 Firstly, you knew there had been some fuss in the
16 town. That's why you had stayed at the bottom for
17 an hour or so.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you got to the gathering at Tracy McAlpine's house
20 was there any discussion about what had gone on in town?
21 A. I don't -- I can't specifically recall any
22 conversations. I have no doubt there may have been some
23 discussion, but not with me. Not that I can recall with
24 me.
25 Q. Okay. Can you remember what the topics or topic of
42
1 discussion would have been and was at the gathering?
2 A. It was a party, so it could have been anything at all.
3 I can't recall exactly what we were talking about. It
4 would be trivial stuff.
5 Q. When you walked back through the town, do you remember
6 discussing with Allister Hanvey what had happened the
7 night before?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. After you had gone home that morning, do you remember
10 when the first you had heard after that was about the
11 fact that there had been serious violence as a result of
12 which Mr Hamill died?
13 A. I can't recall exactly when I first heard about it. Do
14 you mean on the news?
15 Q. Yes, or anybody telling you. Was it within days?
16 A. I would assume it was within days possibly.
17 Q. Did you ever raise it with anybody you had seen on the
18 night or at the party?
19 A. When you say "raise" ...
20 Q. Did you, after that, see, for example, Allister Hanvey
21 or Tracy McAlpine or anybody else again and say, "Gosh!
22 That night we were all at the party together, it turned
23 out somebody had been killed"?
24 A. I had little contact with Allister, you know, after the
25 incident. I left for university in September of that
43
1 year as well.
2 Q. All right. Finally, can I ask you to look at
3 page [80429], please? I know you very kindly gave
4 an interview to the Inquiry that was transcribed, and
5 from the transcript a statement was drafted.
6 I just want, if we can just scroll through these
7 half a dozen or so pages, to show you what it is. This
8 is a statement that was sent in draft to your solicitors
9 in November last year. Did you get the draft statement?
10 A. I have only seen this recently.
11 Q. So not in November last year?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When you say you only saw it recently, in the last week
14 or so or what?
15 A. Yes, the last week.
16 Q. Have you had a chance to go through it now?
17 A. I have.
18 Q. Is it accurate?
19 A. I would say, yes, most of it is -- sorry. I would say,
20 yes, it is -- to the best of my knowledge and recall, it
21 is ...
22 Q. If you had received it in November last year, would you
23 have signed it?
24 A. I would take advice from my representative.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you very much indeed. As
44
1 I say, other people may ask you some questions.
2 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
3 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
4 MR ADAIR: Just a couple of matters, Mr Henderson.
5 Could I have page [70945], please, on the screen?
6 Now this, Mr Henderson, is apparently a questionnaire
7 that you filled out or you answered questions about, to
8 the best of our knowledge, in January 2001.
9 Do you remember being asked some questions in
10 January 2001?
11 A. I remember speaking to the police on a number of
12 occasions. I don't remember specifics, but I do
13 remember --
14 Q. But you remember it basically. You will see it starts
15 off:
16 "Can you outline your movements", and so on.
17 You describe coming back with your girlfriend. Your
18 girlfriend was sick. She was dropped off home. You
19 were dropped off at Z Cabs. You walked up the town, got
20 food at Herron's, which is, I think, your recollection
21 again today. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then you say:
24 "Walked to Wellworths. Police were stopping crowds
25 from going up."
45
1 Now I take it when you say that, that's at a time
2 when you have had your food at Herron's --
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. -- and you are making your way up the main street?
5 A. I remember being at Herron's. I can't recall
6 specifically waiting outside Wellworths, but I would
7 assume it is after I have had the food, yes.
8 Q. So at the stage you have been to Herron's -- I think you
9 have obviously stayed around Herron's for a while aware
10 of the commotion up the town.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You are then making your way up the town and the police
13 basically stopped you from going any further?
14 A. I can't recall seeing police at the time. As I say,
15 I don't --
16 Q. That's what you said here?
17 A. If I said that in here, then I would assume it is
18 accurate.
19 Q. I mean, it is obviously seven years ago that you were
20 telling this. If you told the police that then, you
21 told us at the time of the questionnaire, is that likely
22 to be true?
23 A. It is likely to be true.
24 Q. Then you go on to say that:
25 "Walked via Thomas Street to Tracey's McAlpine's
46
1 house."
2 It is perhaps of little relevance to me, but I think
3 it has been suggested -- if you go on to the next page,
4 [70946], I think it has been suggested to you that you
5 arrived at the party at 5 o'clock. I am not sure. You
6 say halfway down it says:
7 "What time did you arrive?", that's at the party.
8 You say:
9 "Between 2.00 am to 3.00 am."
10 A. I would say that would be wrong.
11 Q. That's wrong?
12 A. My recollection is that it was later. From what I can
13 recall, I would have thought it would have been later
14 based on the timings of being dropped off.
15 Q. If you just give us the full page again, please, and if
16 you go to [70947], please, in this you are asked various
17 questions then about who was at the party and so on. If
18 you go to the next page [70948], you were asked, about
19 three lines down:
20 "What time did you leave the party?
21 "5.00 am or later. It was starting to get light."
22 Is that your recollection?
23 A. It is my recollection that it was starting to get light.
24 The timing may be wrong.
25 MR ADAIR: I understand. Thank you.
47
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
2 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
3 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.
4 Just a few matters, Mr Henderson, I want to ask you
5 on behalf of the Hamill family.
6 If I can begin with that questionnaire you were
7 being asked about by Mr Adair there, when you gave those
8 answers in 2001, can you remember, did you have the
9 benefit during that interview of refreshing your memory
10 from the notes of your discussions with the police in
11 May 1997?
12 A. I can't recall.
13 Q. You just can't recall?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Certainly your memory is that it was daylight when you
16 were leaving the household?
17 A. That's my --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Getting light, starting to get light.
19 Starting to get light.
20 MR McGRORY: Thank you. I only have one other question for
21 you really, Mr Henderson. That is Stephen Sinnamon was
22 a good friend of yours. Isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In your statement of 12th May 1997, which is at
25 page [09602], you said you got a lift back to Portadown.
48
1 You didn't take the bus back. Now, you name a number of
2 people that were in the car with you: a friend of
3 Cara's, Christine Bigg and also in the car -- now,
4 I think that [P43], I have the name. I will not say it,
5 but it is a girl -- and xxxxxxxxxx.
6 Can you recall at all whether or not
7 Stephen Sinnamon came back in the car with you?
8 A. I can't remember. Sorry.
9 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.
10 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
11 MS DINSMORE: Just three brief points. What age were you in
12 April 1997?
13 A. Just turned 19.
14 Q. How much alcohol would you have drunk that night?
15 A. A lot.
16 Q. Would you have said that you were drunk?
17 A. Very.
18 Q. Very drunk. Thank you.
19 Then, in relation to the speaking to the policeman,
20 that occurred while you were walking through the town in
21 daylight?
22 A. I'm not sure it was definitely daylight. It was more it
23 was starting to get light. What I was trying to say was
24 it was early morning.
25 Q. It was well post 3.00 am in any event?
49
1 A. Yes.
2 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
3 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
4 MR McCOMB: Just a very few questions.
5 You did say that you were very drunk. You have said
6 that very candidly. At that time, were you still at
7 school or had you finished your A levels.
8 A. I deferred for a year before university to save up for
9 uni.
10 Q. I see. So, in fact, you were not actually studying at
11 that stage. You had passed all your exams to get into
12 university.
13 A. I was working.
14 Q. Quite a few of your weekends at that stage would have
15 been spent perhaps going to the Coach or other places
16 and having a few drinks?
17 A. I got paid, I think it was on a Friday, and put a little
18 away for university. Then whatever was left was spent.
19 Q. Surely. There appear to be some hours which you may or
20 may not be able to account for and certainly nobody is
21 saying there is anything wrong about that.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. You were back in town some time after you had been
24 dropped off. Some period of time, about an hour,
25 elapsed that you remember that you were down at the
50
1 bottom near where you had been dropped off --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- which would take us up to perhaps 2 o'clock possibly,
4 perhaps a bit later.
5 A. Probably later.
6 Q. You remember hearing ambulances, which would have been
7 about 2 o'clock from what we know?
8 A. I can't remember specifically hearing ambulances now,
9 but I know there was some reason why I didn't go up the
10 town.
11 Q. I understand. Of course, it is impossible -- very, very
12 hard now to remember.
13 Would it be fair to say that even a few days later,
14 say on 12th or 13th May, when you were trying your best
15 to recall things, there would have been quite large gaps
16 in your memory?
17 A. From the alcohol there probably would have been, yes,
18 potentially.
19 Q. We really just can't account -- you think or you feel
20 that when you said in your questionnaire in 2001 that it
21 was about 3 o'clock you arrived at the party at
22 Tracy McAlpine's, that that is not right, that it was
23 about 5 o'clock that you got there?
24 A. I believe it is later, based on being dropped in town.
25 In fact, I waited around. By the time it would have
51
1 taken me to get to the party, I believe it would have
2 been later.
3 Q. But you don't actually have in your mind now a picture
4 of how you got there --
5 A. No.
6 Q. -- walking up the town, going to her house --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- or who you were with?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you know where Tracy McAlpine lived at the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Had you been at parties before and since?
13 A. Not since. I had been there before, not specifically
14 for parties, but I had been there before.
15 Q. People meet up at her place quite often perhaps after
16 a night out, not an actual formal organised party, but
17 where people would hang out, have a few drinks or
18 whatever?
19 A. There was occasions where we would meet up, yes.
20 Q. It has already been shown to you that when you were
21 re-interviewed on 13th May, it was just at the very end
22 of that passage you said, "It might have been another
23 weekend. I was drunk. I was often drunk at that time".
24 Is that a fair answer?
25 A. I wasn't drunk all the time.
52
1 Q. I am not suggesting you were drunk. Far be it from me
2 to suggest that. You were partying a fair bit, having
3 worked hard and before going to university?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much. I suppose formally I should just
6 say, is it possible that you could be mistaken about
7 having gone with Allister Hanvey?
8 A. It is fair to say I had shared taxis -- it is likely
9 I would have shared taxis with Allister.
10 Q. Had you done that on occasions before?
11 A. On occasions.
12 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
13 MR McGRORY: Excuse me, sir. Arising from that there is
14 a piece of information I would like to ascertain from
15 this witness.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Put your question.
17 MR McGRORY: I am sorry, sir. It has only become
18 particularly relevant in view of the questions asked by
19 Mr McComb.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
21 Further cross-examination by MR McGRORY
22 MR McGRORY: Did you seek representation in connection with
23 the Inquiry in terms of giving evidence and being
24 interviewed?
25 A. Yes.
53
1 Q. Can I ask you who that representative is?
2 A. Yes. Richard Monteith.
3 Q. Can I just ask you, did anybody recommend Mr Monteith to
4 you?
5 A. Not that I can recall.
6 Q. That's okay. I am not entitled to ask you any questions
7 about what went on between you and Mr Monteith, but
8 that's a matter that I intend to raise with the Inquiry.
9 Thank you.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you very much.
11 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
12 THE CHAIRMAN: About how long would it take to walk from the
13 centre of Portadown where the junction is with
14 Thomas Street and Market Street to Tracy McAlpine's?
15 A. I guess it depends what you did on the way, but anything
16 from half an hour to an hour.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Half an hour to an hour's walk. Yes? Thank
18 you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising from that. Thank you very
20 much. Thank you for coming.
21 A. Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, it strikes me if there is
23 interest shown in the time at which the witness left
24 Tracy McAlpine's, since he fixes the time more by
25 reference to the state of the light than anything else,
54
1 there will be almanacs which show on that day what was
2 the time of sunrise.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. We will get those.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I am told that the next witness needs
6 a little time before he can come into the box. Perhaps
7 I can ask for a fifteen-minute break?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Very well.
9 (11.50 am)
10 (A short break)
11 (12.05 pm)
12 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Kyle Magee, please.
13 MR KYLE MAGEE (sworn)
14 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Magee.
16 A. Hiya.
17 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
18 I am going to ask some questions. At the end of that,
19 some other people may have a few questions for you.
20 What we are interested in is 27th April 1997, when,
21 as we know, there was an event in the middle of town in
22 Portadown and the result of that was that Mr Hamill
23 died.
24 What we are trying to find out from people is what
25 the police in the Land Rover could have seen, whether
55
1 they got out in time to help and, if not, why not.
2 What we are asking is for everybody we know who was
3 around the scene to come and tell us what they saw about
4 that. We are not interested in criticising any
5 individual. We are interested in finding out what the
6 police were up to, and, if they didn't get out in time,
7 why that might have been.
8 Can I ask you to help us with a map, first of all,
9 and then we have a model?
10 A. Yes, certainly.
11 Q. If we look at the map on the screen we can see towards
12 the top right-hand corner there are some circles with
13 letters in and arrows as well. 'A' is what was Herron's
14 Country Fried Chicken. 'C' was Boss Hogg's. You can see
15 there are barriers there as well.
16 Then if you follow the High Street down towards the
17 left, it splits up into West Street going up to the
18 right and what is, I think, still High Street on the
19 left.
20 Now, can you tell us, as best you can recall, what
21 you were up to on the night? Where did you start from
22 and where did you go on this map?
23 A. I think it was from Herron's chippie and then Boss Hogg's
24 and then up the town and home.
25 Q. Would you have to have gone up West Street to get home?
56
1 A. Well, I got a taxi at the top of the town.
2 Q. Right. But you would have had to go up West Street to
3 get a taxi because of the barriers. Would that be
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Don't let me give the evidence. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So if you were on the Boss Hogg's side to start with and
9 you had to go up West Street, you would have had to have
10 crossed the High Street at some point. Can you help us
11 where that would have been?
12 A. Where I crossed the street?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I can't remember that.
15 Q. If we look at a model now, here we have a scene of the
16 crossroads. It is taken from Thomas Street outside
17 Eastwoods Clothing. You can see across there
18 Woodhouse Street and up to the right is the High Street
19 and to the left -- you can't see it here -- is the
20 church. We have put a Land Rover there.
21 When you were coming up, do you recall seeing
22 a Land Rover?
23 A. Down in my statement I have a Land Rover there.
24 Q. Was it where we have it here or was it somewhere else?
25 A. In my statement I have a Land Rover there, yes.
57
1 Q. Okay. Let's have a look at your statement then, shall
2 we? That's at page [09143]. If we enlarge the text of
3 it there.
4 You say you went to the Coach disco in the first
5 sentence. You went on the bus from Portadown with a few
6 mates: Johnny Nelson, Conor Black, Stephen Bloomer and
7 Christopher Henderson. You got the bus back. That left about
8 1.15 and got in about 1.50. You travelled home on the
9 bus with the same mates you went with, but you say:
10 "I can't remember seeing Christopher Henderson on
11 the bus coming home."
12 He has told us that's because he came back by taxi.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. I am so sorry. He got a lift. So far, we can see that
15 explains why you couldn't remember seeing him coming
16 back then. Then you say there:
17 "I got off the bus at the bottom of the town at
18 Herron's ... There was a crowd of us got off the bus.
19 Conor Black and Johnny Nelson went into Herron's.
20 I walked up to Boss Hogg's with Stephen Bloomer. There
21 were others walking up the street. I went into
22 Boss Hogg's. I didn't purchase anything. I just went
23 into it because the crowd went into Boss Hogg's. I can't
24 remember if Stephen Bloomer went into Boss Hogg's."
25 Looking at that now -- I know you gave this
58
1 statement as long ago as 30th April 1997 -- what sort of
2 memory have you got of that?
3 A. From that statement now?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Nothing really.
6 Q. Would it have been accurate to the best of your ability
7 when you gave the statement?
8 A. I am sure it would have, yes.
9 Q. You go on:
10 "There was a large crowd standing outside
11 Boss Hogg's. I stood there for about ten to
12 fifteen minutes. Victoria Clayton and Jennifer O'Neill
13 were also outside Boss Hogg's and I spoke to them.
14 I then ran back down to Herron's to see Conor Black",
15 then going over the page, [09144], "I asked Conor if
16 I could go back to his house because I knew his mother and
17 father were away."
18 You have dealt with that there. Have you any
19 recollection of that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. If we go down half a dozen lines or so, you say:
22 "I think Timothy Jameson and Stephen Bloomer were
23 standing beside us. The next thing I saw was a crowd
24 starting to fight on the middle of the street."
25 So, from Boss Hogg's, would you have had a decent
59
1 view up to the junction of Thomas Street and
2 Woodhouse Street?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Help us then. You say there you saw a crowd starting to
5 fight at the junction. There would have been about 20
6 fighting. You say:
7 "I started to walk towards the fight and Victoria
8 and Jennifer walked with me. I am not sure if Timothy
9 and Stephen came up the street. I got near the fight.
10 I got close to it. I saw about 20 boys fighting."
11 Just on that, how good is your recollection now of
12 what you saw?
13 A. I can just go by the statement, you know. It was
14 12 years ago.
15 Q. Had you come across fighting in that area before?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you come across fighting in that area after this?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So this is the only event you have seen there of this
20 sort, is it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you help us about how violent the fighting was? Was
23 it just groups having a little pick at each other or was
24 it people really laying in?
25 A. I can't say. You know, it was 20 people fighting.
60
1 That's all I have said.
2 Q. You go on:
3 "The police Land Rover was parked outside the
4 Alliance & Leicester Building Society and I saw a couple
5 of police officers get out of the Land Rover and walk
6 towards the fight. I started shouting at the police."
7 You give an explanation further on about being drunk
8 and you had a go at the police and you can't now think
9 why you did that.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again, when you were telling the police this on
12 30th April so it went into the statement, was it true,
13 to the best of your recollection at the time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you help us about what the police officers did?
16 A. Again, I can just go by what my statement says, that the
17 police pushed everybody on, I think I have said.
18 Q. You say there, you see, that two police officers got
19 out. You have 20 people fighting and you saw them walk
20 toward the fight. That leaves us on a cliff edge. 20
21 people fighting, two police officers. They walk towards
22 it. Then what? Did they muck in? Did they stand back?
23 Does something stick in your mind about this?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You go on:
61
1 "I started shouting at the police. I can't remember
2 what all I called them. I then walked up towards the
3 church with the two girls, Victoria and Jennifer. The
4 crowd was still fighting. I walked up to the church.
5 Jason Woods was standing about there. I walked down to
6 the summer seats, just down from the church toward the
7 town centre. I sat down with Victoria and Jennifer for
8 a few minutes and watched the fight. The ambulance
9 arrived."
10 So what you are describing there then is seeing the
11 fight start. You see two police get out and walk
12 towards it, but the fight carries on. Can you help us
13 with that, whether they managed to stop the fight or
14 whether it did carry on despite them?
15 A. Yes, I can't remember.
16 Q. Okay. We know that some back-up police officers arrived
17 at some point.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. If you can possibly help us with this: can you recall
20 seeing any other police cars arrive?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you recall any sirens or blue flashing lights?
23 A. No.
24 Q. According to this statement, you managed to walk through
25 the centre while the fighting was going on.
62
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Can you give us some impression of how easy that would
3 have been? Was the fighting spreading across the street
4 entirely?
5 A. Again, I can just go by this statement. It doesn't --
6 I don't know where it spread to or what happened.
7 Q. Okay. Were you frightened?
8 A. I am not sure. At the time, I am not sure if I was
9 frightened.
10 Q. What was your feeling towards the police generally in
11 those days?
12 A. I just didn't think about the police.
13 Q. Can you help us now about why you started at them?
14 A. There was probably drink involved.
15 Q. But were they doing something to irritate you?
16 A. I doubt it, no.
17 Q. Could they have been pulling Protestants off Catholics
18 and that was winding you up, something like that?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Going back on to the statement, after you say the
21 ambulance arrived, you say:
22 "I observed a fellow lying on the ground in the
23 middle of the road on Thomas Street side of the main
24 street. I think he was lying in a pool of blood. The
25 police had got the fight under control by now. The
63
1 police marched the people up the town up past the
2 church."
3 Did you see anybody else lying on the ground? Just
4 one fellow?
5 A. Yes. If that's what it says, just one fellow.
6 Q. Uh-huh. Did you see anybody fighting around him or
7 kicking him or attacking him in any way?
8 A. No. Just a crowd fighting.
9 Q. Okay. Then you say:
10 "I walked up West Street with Victoria and Jennifer
11 to ..."
12 Then the sentence runs out. Did you go to your home
13 or go somebody else's place?
14 A. I think I got a taxi.
15 Q. You go on to say, if we go over the page [09145], you
16 met Johnny and Conor Black outside 'Call-a-Cab'. You
17 got into a taxi and went to Conor's for a bit and then
18 walked home.
19 Can I ask you to look at page [08119] as well? This
20 is a questionnaire that was taken from you on the same
21 day as your statement at 8.50 in the evening. If you
22 look down under Q3, between Q3 and Q4, you are asked:
23 "Who was with you?"
24 You say:
25 "Stephen Bloomer", whose name you mentioned in your
64
1 statement, "Conor Black, Christopher Henderson,
2 Johnny Nelson, Jason Woods", all of whom are mentioned
3 in your statement.
4 Now, Stacey Bridgett. His name doesn't crop up in
5 the statement. Can you help us with why that is?
6 A. I am not sure.
7 Q. Can we now look at pages [80744]and [80745], if we split
8 the screen.
9 You were interviewed by the Inquiry, were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The interview was recorded and transcribed and this
12 statement was drafted from the transcription of the
13 interview and was sent to you.
14 Did you get the letter which was sent to you through
15 your solicitors in February last year containing this?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it accurate?
20 A. Yes. I think so.
21 Q. Why didn't you sign it?
22 A. I was told not to by Mr Monteith.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
24 A. Thank you.
25 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
65
1 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
2 MR ADAIR: Mr Magee, why can't you remember anything about
3 this night?
4 A. It was 12 years ago.
5 Q. But are you telling us today you remember absolutely
6 nothing about walking up the main street in Portadown
7 that night?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Pardon?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You are not telling us that or you are telling us that?
12 A. I am telling you that I can't remember anything, no.
13 Q. You remember absolutely nothing about your trip from
14 Boss Hogg's to the church, absolutely nothing?
15 A. No. I am just going by my statement.
16 Q. Do you remember anything at all about the fight?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Absolutely nothing?
19 A. No. I am just going by my statement.
20 Q. Well, why is it you remember absolutely nothing about
21 seeing 20 people fighting in the centre of Portadown on
22 this particular night?
23 A. I just can't remember.
24 Q. Yes, but why?
25 A. I don't know.
66
1 Q. Well, can you help us at all as to how it is you are
2 able to remember the events when you gave your statement
3 but now you can remember nothing at all?
4 A. Because it is 12 years later.
5 Q. Pardon?
6 A. This is 12 years later.
7 Q. You don't see a fight involving 20 people very often, do
8 you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You don't see a fight where I take it you found out
11 a short time later that Mr Hamill had been killed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But you still can remember nothing at all about it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. That's just nonsense, isn't it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, when you made your way up the street towards the
18 fight, according to your statement you saw two police
19 getting out of the Land Rover. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you not aware at that stage that this was
22 Protestants and Catholics fighting?
23 A. I'm not sure. I probably did.
24 Q. You probably did. When you made your way towards the
25 fight, probably knowing it was Protestants and
67
1 Catholics, did you recognise any of the Protestants
2 involved in the fight?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You know Mr Hanvey?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You know Mr Hobson?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You know Mr Bridgett?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you see any of them involved in the fight?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You did see the police, in your words in your statement,
13 walk towards the fight. Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Well, what do you think they were trying to do and what
16 did you see them do?
17 A. Again, I have to go with my statement that -- whatever
18 it says.
19 Q. I know you keep saying that, but thinking back now, when
20 the police went towards the fight, Mr Magee, what did
21 they do?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Well, didn't they try to stop the Protestants from
24 further injuring the Catholics? Now, would you just
25 tell us the truth, please, Mr Magee? It is important.
68
1 A. Listen, whatever it says in the statement --
2 Q. Leave aside your statement for a moment.
3 A. Well, then I can't remember that night, so I can't add
4 anything to it.
5 Q. Do you know, Mr Magee, that there is a suggestion that
6 the police -- I am putting it in simple terms --
7 effectively did nothing to prevent an attack on
8 Mr Hamill and another gentleman. Do you know that
9 that's one of the reasons this Inquiry is sitting? Do
10 you know that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you saw the police going towards the fight, so you
13 can give critical evidence, Mr Magee, as to what they
14 did. I want you to tell us what they did.
15 A. Again, I can't remember. It was 12 years ago.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: It was seven years ago, I think, when this --
17 getting on for seven years ago -- five years ago when
18 this Inquiry was set up. Could you remember then?
19 A. Excuse me?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It was about four and a quarter years ago
21 when this Inquiry was set up. Could you remember then?
22 A. I never thought about it then.
23 MR ADAIR: What do you mean you never thought about it then?
24 A man had been killed. You saw the fight. You were
25 there. Now, are you saying you just -- it never entered
69
1 your head that you had seen police getting out of the
2 Land Rover and doing something, it never entered your
3 head?
4 A. It was 12 years ago. I never thought about it until the
5 Inquiry got in touch with me again.
6 Q. Again, I say to you, Mr Magee, you understand that there
7 are a number of police officers who are under a cloud.
8 Do you understand what I am saying to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Part of that cloud is what they did at the scene when
11 Mr Hamill and another gentleman were being attacked. Do
12 you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You may not know the details of it, but a critical part
15 of this Inquiry is to find out what the police did when
16 they got out of the Land Rover. Do you understand me?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you saw them and you saw them go towards the fight.
19 Now, if you saw them go towards the fight, Mr Magee,
20 would you please tell us what they did?
21 A. Listen, it is 12 years ago. I can only go by my
22 statement.
23 Q. Let me ask you this then. Why did you start shouting
24 abuse at them, at the police?
25 A. It must have been drink.
70
1 Q. Well, when you see a policeman with drink in you every
2 night, you don't start shouting abuse at him, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So what were the police doing that made you shout abuse
5 at them?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Weren't they trying to protect the Catholics from the
8 Protestants, Mr Magee, and that's why you started to
9 shout abuse at them --
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. -- as well as shouting at the Catholics that they were
12 Fenians? Isn't that what you were doing?
13 A. That's what it says.
14 Q. Well, that's what it says, and isn't that, Mr Magee,
15 what was happening? You were shouting abuse at the
16 police because they were trying to protect the Catholics
17 and you were calling the Catholics Fenians. Isn't that
18 what this boils down to?
19 A. I don't know whether I said them things. It was down to
20 drink.
21 Q. Let's get down to basics. I take it when you are drunk,
22 you don't shout abuse at the police every time.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Can the Panel take that as read?
25 A. Yes.
71
1 Q. So something must have been going on that night that
2 made you shout abuse at the police. Isn't that right?
3 Isn't that right?
4 A. I don't know why I shouted it.
5 Q. I know, but we are trying to find a reason, Mr Magee.
6 You keep saying that. We know you don't shout abuse at
7 the police every time you are drunk. Okay? Is that
8 right?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. So they must have been doing something that night to
11 make you shout abuse at them. That's logical, isn't it?
12 A. That is your point. I don't know why I shouted at them,
13 and that's it.
14 Q. What did you shout at them?
15 A. In my statement it says I don't know what I shouted at
16 the police.
17 Q. Why did you call the Catholics Fenians when you were
18 walking past?
19 A. I don't know. I must have had too much to drink.
20 Q. You know, as I take it we all know, that that's regarded
21 as a term of abuse. Isn't that right? That was a term
22 of abuse at the Catholic population?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So if we combine the fact that you are shouting abuse at
25 the police and shouting abuse at the Catholics, does it
72
1 appear, Mr Magee, would you agree with me, that it was
2 probably because the police were trying to protect the
3 Catholics?
4 A. That's your point of view.
5 Q. I am asking you, Mr Magee. Doesn't that appear to be
6 likely?
7 A. That is your point of view.
8 Q. No, Mr Magee. You were not shouting abuse at the
9 Protestants, were you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. There were three groups on the street that night
12 involved in the incident: the Protestants, the Catholics
13 and the police. You are shouting abuse at two of those
14 groups. Do you agree with me it is likely because the
15 police were trying to protect what you regarded as
16 Fenians?
17 A. No, I don't agree with that, because, again, I don't
18 know why I shouted it, as I told you.
19 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
21 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
22 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.
23 Mr Magee, I want to ask you some questions on behalf
24 of the family of Robert Hamill.
25 A. Okay.
73
1 Q. You have already accepted to Mr Adair, as you did to the
2 Inquiry when you were interviewed in 2006, that insofar
3 as some of the personalities allegedly involved in this
4 attack were concerned, you knew them to see at the time,
5 and they would have been Allister Hanvey, Marc Hobson
6 and Stacey Bridgett.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You knew what these people looked like at the time in
9 1997?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You knew exactly who they were. Isn't that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Now, you have also accepted today that the statement
14 that you made on 30th April 1997 was a true statement --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- insofar as it recounts where it is you were and who
17 you were with. Isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes. Correct.
19 Q. I make it very clear to you from the beginning,
20 Mr Magee, that I am suggesting to you that you leave
21 a lot out of this statement that you made on
22 30th April 1997. Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, if I could have [09144], please. This is the
25 second page of your statement that you made on
74
1 30th April 1997. The top half of the page, please, if
2 that could be highlighted. This is what you said then
3 and as far as we know today this is the truth:
4 "I walked back up to Boss Hogg's and met up with
5 Victoria and Jennifer again. I stood outside Boss Hogg's
6 with the two girls. I think Timothy Jameson and
7 Stephen Bloomer were standing beside us."
8 Now, you were with Timothy Jameson and
9 Stephen Bloomer, so that's correct.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. "The next thing I saw was a crowd starting to fight on
12 the middle of the street at the junction of
13 Woodhouse Street with Thomas Street. There would have
14 been about twenty fighting."
15 That's correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. So that's an observation you made at the time. Isn't
18 that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. "I started to walk towards the fight and Victoria and
21 Jennifer walked with me. I am not sure if Timothy and
22 Stephen came up the street. I got near the fight.
23 I got close to it."
24 Now, do you see those words?
25 A. Yes.
75
1 Q. So what you told the police on 30th April 1997 is you
2 got right up close to the fight. So you had
3 a bird's-eye view, hadn't you, Mr Magee?
4 A. I got close to the fight, yes.
5 Q. But you had a bird's-eye view of what was going on. You
6 were right up there. Isn't that correct?
7 A. I got close to the fight, yes.
8 Q. Do you accept that, being close to the fight, you were
9 able to see exactly who was fighting and in what way?
10 A. All I have here is that I have seen a fight and I was up
11 close.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr Magee, if you are close to a fight,
13 unless you are closing your eyes or looking the other
14 way so as not to see anything, you get some idea of
15 what's going on, don't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Just think about Mr McGrory's questions, will
18 you?
19 Yes, Mr McGrory?
20 MR McGRORY: Will you think about your answer to this
21 question: do you accept that as someone being close to
22 the fight, you were able to see exactly what was going
23 on?
24 A. No. There was 20 -- a fight of 20, I have said.
25 Q. Well, you made other observations, didn't you, Mr Magee,
76
1 about what was happening? Let's just look to the second
2 part of this page, the bottom half, the final
3 paragraph -- well, it is not paragraphed, but after the
4 ambulance arrived, about four lines up:
5 "I observed a fellow lying on the ground in the
6 middle of the road on Thomas Street ..."
7 Now, you were able to see that, were you not,
8 Mr Magee?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you explain to us how you were able to see
11 a fellow lying on the ground and not see who was hitting
12 whom and what else was happening?
13 A. I can't explain it.
14 Q. Well, is that because it is a lie?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What you go on to observe at this point is that in terms
17 of the man lying in the middle of the street:
18 "I think he was lying in a pool of blood."
19 Now, that's a fairly detailed observation, isn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you were able to see that. You must have seen it --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that he was lying in a pool of blood or some liquid.
24 Isn't that right?
25 A. A pool of blood it says here.
77
1 Q. That's your memory?
2 A. It must have been.
3 Q. Is it your memory now?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You are not going to give away any memory now, are you,
6 Mr Magee?
7 A. I can't remember anything.
8 Q. I am suggesting to you that that is a lie, as is your
9 evidence that you saw nothing in terms of who did what
10 to whom on that night. Isn't that correct?
11 A. That's your opinion.
12 Q. Well, let me just take you to the evidence of some other
13 people who were with you that night. We will see what
14 they saw. There is a statement from a Witness B, who is
15 a young man called Timothy Jameson. If I could have
16 [00266], please.
17 Now, do you know Timothy Jameson?
18 A. I know him, yes.
19 Q. Is he a friend of yours?
20 A. I just knew him from going to the Coach and stuff.
21 Q. Is he still a friend of yours?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The first five or six lines of that statement --
24 SIR JOHN EVANS: It is not the correct statement.
25 MR McGRORY: It is Tracey Clarke's. I will deal with
78
1 Tracey Clarke. I am going to put both Timothy Jameson's
2 statement and Tracey Clarke's, but this is Witness B.
3 This is Tracey Clarke. Do you know Tracey Clarke?
4 A. I do, yes.
5 Q. Sorry, B is Jameson. I was right the first time:
6 "The bus left the Coach at 1.15 am and got into
7 Portadown about 1.40 am. I came home on the bus with
8 two mates, Stephen Bloomer and Kyle Magee."
9 Do you remember that? Do you remember coming home
10 on the bus with Timothy Jameson?
11 A. I don't remember it now, no. It says in my -- it's
12 whatever it says in my statement.
13 Q. This is what Timothy Jameson is saying about you, that
14 he was with you. At the very bottom of the page then
15 Timothy Jameson says:
16 "We then decided not to wait for the bus and to walk
17 on up the town. We all started to walk towards the town
18 centre. Stephen Bloomer", then over the page [00267],
19 "walked on in front of us and Kyle and I followed
20 behind. I walked up past McMahon's clothes shop and
21 Ronnie May's pub. Kyle was with me."
22 Do you accept you were with Timothy Jameson at this
23 point if he says so?
24 A. Well, that's his statement.
25 Q. And, indeed, Stephen Bloomer?
79
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. "When I got as far as Ronnie's pub, I could see a crowd
3 of approximately 15 to 20 persons fighting in the middle
4 of the town."
5 That's pretty much what you saw, isn't it
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. "I walked towards the crowd. There was fellows punching
8 each other and I observed a fellow with an Umbro
9 sweater, grey colour, and I think blue jeans fighting
10 with another fellow."
11 Now, did you see that particular aspect of it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. "This fellow I know to see. He lives in [blank] and he
14 is called Marc. He is also called "Muck"."
15 Now, you knew Marc Hobson. Isn't that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Do you remember Marc Hobson being called "Muck"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You are with Timothy Jameson at this point. He is able
20 to identify "Muck" as someone involved in the fighting,
21 but you are just saying nothing about that?
22 A. It doesn't mention that in my statement, no.
23 Q. Is it not the truth that you saw that as well?
24 A. No.
25 Q. At page [00268], the top of the page, four lines down:
80
1 "I looked around and I saw Allister Hanvey kick and
2 punch this fellow who was lying on the ground."
3 Now, you saw the fellow lying on the ground, didn't
4 you? You have told us that.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Timothy Jameson was able to tell us he saw
7 Allister Hanvey kick and punch the fellow lying on the
8 ground.
9 You knew Allister Hanvey, didn't you?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. You saw him kicking him as well, didn't you?
12 A. No.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: How do you know that if you can't remember
14 anything?
15 A. It doesn't say it in my statement.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no. You are not thinking about my
17 question. You have told us many times that you can
18 remember nothing at all now.
19 A. Yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right? But when Mr Underwood asked
21 you if you knew Mr Hanvey, Mr Hobson and Mr Bridgett,
22 you said you did.
23 A. Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Then you said:
25 "I didn't see any of them in the fight."
81
1 A. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: How could you say that if you can't remember
3 any of it?
4 A. Because I am going by my statement.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: So it is not that you can remember that you
6 were not involved; it is just that you don't say in your
7 statement they were involved. Is that it?
8 A. Could you repeat that, please?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. It is not because you can remember now
10 that they were not involved; it is simply that you don't
11 say in your statement that they were involved. Is that
12 the position?
13 A. No.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I am not quite sure what you are
15 saying.
16 Yes, Mr McGrory?
17 MR McGRORY: Do you remember Jennifer Carol O'Neill?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could I have page [09153]? You were in her company that
20 night, were you not?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. She says about halfway down that that she was with you
23 and that she stood at the door of Boss Hogg's talking to
24 Kyle. Do you remember that?
25 A. I just go by my statement.
82
1 Q. Well, the answer to my last question was that you
2 remembered being in her company, so that was an actual
3 memory.
4 A. I am just going by the statement. Every question you
5 are asking, I am going by the statement.
6 Q. The answer to my last question was, "Do you remember
7 being in the company of Jennifer O'Neill?" and you said
8 "Yes".
9 A. What I meant by that was going by my statement. I have
10 no memory of this night, as I keep saying.
11 Q. I suggest to you that that answer about remembering
12 being with Jennifer O'Neill revealed that you do have
13 a memory.
14 A. No, that's wrong.
15 Q. At the top of page [09154], this is still the statement
16 of Jennifer O'Neill, which she made to the police on
17 15th May 1997:
18 "The three of us stood at the green gate at the side
19 of St Mark's Church and looked down the street."
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. Again, I don't remember any of this. I am just going by
22 what my statement says.
23 Q. "I could see approximately 20 people in the middle of
24 the street, about the middle of the town. About 10 of
25 these people were fighting with each other."
83
1 That's what you observed, though. You have accepted
2 that?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. "I observed people throwing punches at each other and
5 others running about. I heard people shouting 'Fenian
6 bastards' and there was one fellow shouting 'Orange
7 bastards'."
8 Were you the person? Was this the point where you
9 shouted "Fenian bastards"?
10 A. It said in my statement something about Fenian, yes.
11 Q. You have already accepted that you shouted that.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That is a term of abuse of Catholics, isn't it,
14 Mr Magee?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Have you a problem with Catholics?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Why would you shout "Fenian" at them?
19 A. Just put it down to too much drink.
20 Q. Is it the case, Mr Magee, that under no circumstances
21 are you going to identify any Protestant for kicking
22 a Catholic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. For, in fact, murdering a Catholic?
25 A. It is not down in my statement, so ...
84
1 Q. Have you spoken to anybody before you came to give your
2 evidence today about how you would deal with this?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Because there is a bit of a pattern emerging, you may or
5 may not know, if you haven't spoken to anybody, of
6 people coming to this Inquiry saying they have
7 absolutely no memory.
8 Is this something that's spoken about in Portadown
9 amongst people of your age --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- people who were there on the night?
12 A. No.
13 MR McGRORY: I suggest to you, Mr Magee, that your entire
14 evidence to this Inquiry has been a fabrication about
15 your memory loss. No further questions.
16 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
17 MS DINSMORE: Just one question. I wonder, could you tell
18 us what age were you in April of 1997?
19 A. 18.
20 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.
21 MR McCOMB: No questions.
22 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Magee, let me just summarise the position
24 so I get it clear. You were very close to the fight.
25 Is that right?
85
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You knew a lot of people in Portadown --
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. -- including a lot of people who were present on the
5 night. Is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. If any of the people whom you knew had been involved in
8 the fight, you would have had the chance to see them.
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Well, as I said in the statement, there was a group of
11 20.
12 Q. Yes. There was good street lighting and you were
13 nearby. That's right, isn't it?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Now if you had seen, for example, Allister Hanvey
16 involved in the fighting, would you have told the
17 police?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This is the police whom three days earlier you had sworn
20 at?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Why would you have told the police?
23 A. As far as I know, in that statement I have told
24 everything I knew.
25 Q. What I want to get at is this: what would have happened
86
1 in 1997 to people who had named Protestants as murderers
2 in a police statement?
3 A. I wouldn't like to think.
4 Q. Yes. So you wouldn't have done it, would you?
5 A. I'm not sure.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just think about it, will you?
7 MR UNDERWOOD: It would have been a remarkably brave or
8 stupid thing to do, wouldn't it, to name Protestant
9 murderers in a statement to the police in April 1997?
10 A. Again, at that time, I was 18, you know. I gave a full
11 and frank statement. So ...
12 Q. Are you worried now that if people prise more
13 information out of you about what you saw on the night,
14 that that might go badly for you?
15 A. No.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you.
17 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Magee, how many years back in your life
19 can you remember things?
20 A. What do you mean?
21 Q. Pardon?
22 A. What do you mean?
23 Q. Well, how many years back can you look in your memory
24 and say "Oh, yes, I remember that". How many years back
25 could you go, do you think?
87
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, think about it?
3 A. Are you looking my first memory?
4 Q. Well, do you have a first memory?
5 A. Not that I can think of, no.
6 Q. But is your memory a blank for anything that happened
7 12 years or more ago in your life?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No. How far back can you go? I am not suggesting you
10 might remember everything, but are there things you can
11 remember that happened when you were a little boy, for
12 instance?
13 A. You are looking at me to tell you what happened when
14 I was a boy?
15 Q. I am not asking you to tell us about it, but are there
16 things you can remember that happened when you were
17 a little boy?
18 A. I just never think back to then. I am not one for
19 looking back.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you. You are free to go.
21 A. Thank you.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 MR UNDERWOOD: I could start Dennis Hayes now and break him
24 over lunch or invite you to rise early. It is a matter
25 for you, sir.
88
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we will break off now until 1.55 pm.
2 (12.55 pm)
3 (The luncheon adjournment)
4 (1.55 pm)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Dennis Hayes, please.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before he comes, I am told that sunrise
7 on 27th April 1997 was 5.54. This is for Belfast. So
8 it would be beginning to get light about 4.30,
9 I suppose.
10 MR DENNIS WAYNE HAYES (sworn)
11 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Hayes.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry, so
15 I will ask some questions. After I finish, a few other
16 people may ask one or two questions. All right?
17 A. That's okay.
18 Q. Can I ask you your full names, please?
19 A. It is Dennis Wayne Hayes.
20 Q. I think in April 1997 you were about 18. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We have a map here. I am going to ask you to tell us by
23 reference to it where you were in the early hours of
24 27th April 1997. I don't know whether you are familiar
25 with the map. If we have a look at it, do you see
89
1 towards the top right-hand corner there is a group of
2 circles with arrows, A, B, C?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The barriers were there and A is Herron's Country Fried
5 Chicken, for example, and C was Boss Hogg's. We have
6 heard from a number of people who got off the bus at the
7 Coach, which dropped off around there, and walked up
8 town.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Were you one of the people who was dropped off by the
11 bus?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall, did you go and get some food as
14 a number of people did?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So did you go straight up to the town, on through the
17 town, or what?
18 A. I believe so, yes.
19 Q. Can you help us with whether you would have got off on
20 the Boss Hogg's side of the High Street or whether you
21 would have got off on the other side of the road, if you
22 see what I mean?
23 A. I would have walked, you know, probably down past
24 Woodhouse Street on the right-hand side going up to
25 Intersport.
90
1 Q. So you wouldn't have had to cross the road, you don't
2 think?
3 A. I would probably cross the road at the church there.
4 Q. Oh, right. If we have a look at a model, we can see how
5 the street might have looked on the night. We haven't
6 got anybody in it, of course. If we just swivel round
7 to the right, you can see this is taken from just
8 outside Eastwoods Clothing at the top of Thomas Street.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We are looking at Number 7 Bakery there, Jamesons,
11 looking down Thomas Street towards the British Legion.
12 Eastwoods is here. Then we look up to the church,
13 West Street. Between the Alliance & Leicester and the
14 Halifax we have put a Land Rover. If we stop it there.
15 You think you were walking on this side of the
16 street and then crossed over by the church?
17 A. Yes. I would say so. I walked past that street there.
18 Q. Thomas Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall seeing a Land Rover?
21 A. I can't recall. I can't mind.
22 Q. Had you had a fair amount to drink?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What we are interested in, as I am sure you know, is
25 whether the police got out of the Land Rover in time to
91
1 help Mr Hamill.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. So what we are trying to find out from people who were
4 there is timings, who was there first, who was there
5 afterwards, how quickly violence broke out, that sort of
6 thing.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Doing the best you can, can you tell us what memory you
9 have of what was going on as you walked up the town?
10 Were there other people with you?
11 A. I would say I probably just motored on, because I had
12 work the next morning. So I probably just went on ahead
13 on my own.
14 Q. I know, because you have told us in an Inquiry
15 interview, that I think you had to go to work at
16 9 o'clock the next morning.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that what you are working from, the fact you had to
19 go to work at 9 o'clock?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you any memory of whether you walked up the street
22 with anybody else?
23 A. No. Just that -- I just happen to remember seeing my
24 cousin at the church there.
25 Q. Who is your cousin?
92
1 A. Lisa Hobson.
2 Q. Oh, right. If we swivel it round to the church towards
3 the left and stop it there for a bit, can you help us
4 about whereabouts you would have seen her?
5 A. Say about there.
6 Q. Actually, we can do a screen shot of this and then you
7 can mark it on the screen, if you would, for us. Just
8 give us a second. Okay. If you use the pen.
9 A. It was about somewhere there.
10 Q. Thank you very much. If we mark that number 1.
11 Do you remember seeing anybody else around? I am
12 not asking you to identify them after all these years,
13 just whether you saw anybody with her. Was it her
14 standing on her own or in a group or what?
15 A. I think she was with a group of people, but I can't
16 remember who they were.
17 Q. Now, we know that there was a big fight.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Did you experience any of that yourself, any noise?
20 A. Never saw or heard nothing.
21 Q. When you met up with your cousin, did you talk to her,
22 stand about or just go straight on or what?
23 A. Probably just said, "Hello", or whatever. It was just
24 probably brief.
25 Q. Did you go off up West Street after that?
93
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I know you have been asked this before. Did you go
3 straight home or did you go to Tracy McAlpine's place?
4 A. What I recall, I definitely went straight home.
5 Q. Let me now show you some documents. At [09170] is
6 a statement you made to the police on 23rd May 1997.
7 How did this come about, this statement? Did the
8 police come to find you, or did you go to them or what?
9 A. Yes, the police came and found me.
10 Q. Were you happy to make a statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say in that:
13 "I got off the bus at Herron's chip shop and walked
14 up the town. I was very drunk. I walked up to about
15 Intersport. I turned round and saw a crowd at the
16 summer seats near the church. I can remember meeting my
17 cousin, Lisa Hobson. I remember speaking, but I can't
18 recall what we talked about. As I say, I was really
19 drunk."
20 So there is a crowd at the summer seats there you
21 are talking about. Can you help us about how many
22 people you would have meant by a crowd when you talked
23 about it in 1997?
24 A. About five or six maybe.
25 Q. At the bottom of that you say:
94
1 "When I moved on home, I saw police in the town.
2 I went straight home and didn't go to anyone's house for
3 a party."
4 Help us with that:
5 "When I moved on home, I saw the police in the
6 town."
7 A. I think I seen a Land Rover or something coming up,
8 going up towards the town when I was heading down
9 West Street. Maybe that's what -- I can't mind.
10 Q. Do you mean a Land Rover coming up West Street?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you sure it was a Land Rover?
13 A. I can't mind, like.
14 Q. Okay. You are clear, are you, you are talking about
15 a vehicle rather than policemen on the street?
16 A. Yes. I'm not too sure, to be honest.
17 Q. Okay. Can you help us with this? Dredge your memory as
18 best you can, because what we are really interested in
19 is police activity.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. If you can recall whether you saw policemen arriving by
22 car or whether you saw them get out of a Land Rover, it
23 would help us.
24 A. I can't be 100% sure.
25 Q. Okay. Then if we go to page [04823], the last part of
95
1 the text, you were seen again by a police officer in
2 2001, 15th January. It says here:
3 "Spoke with Dennis Hayes. He stated that he had
4 made a statement at the time and had nothing further to
5 say. He stated that he works on Sundays, so on that
6 night he went straight home and went to bed. I asked
7 him did he go to the party and he replied 'No'. He went
8 on to say that he hadn't seen anyone. I asked him did
9 he know Allister Hanvey. He replied', Yes, but I didn't
10 see him or anyone else. I've made a statement and have
11 nothing more to say'."
12 Do you recall that conversation?
13 A. To be honest, no. I can't remember that at all.
14 Q. Let me put to you a couple of things other people have
15 said. If we look at page [07411], and perhaps we can
16 split the screen with [07412], as well, this is
17 an interview of Andrew Allen. Do you know Andrew Allen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know him in 1997?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know him by the name "Fonzy"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you know, in 1997, he was interviewed in connection
24 with the death of Mr Hamill?
25 A. No.
96
1 Q. If we pick this up on the left-hand side, he is talking
2 about a crowd. There is the word "Allen". The second
3 time the word "Allen" appears. He says:
4 "Allen: Who all was in the crowd?"
5 Question: "Well, I will ask you the question again,
6 right? You see a crowd of fifteen persons walking
7 towards you from Woolworths?
8 "Allen: Yes."
9 Question: "Or from Wellworths?
10 "Allen: Yes."
11 Question: They are walking up towards you because
12 you are standing talking to Rory Robinson on the corner
13 of the street."
14 We know that is Thomas Street. So he is describing
15 himself standing talking to Rory Robinson at the top of
16 Thomas Street -- which you had to walk past, you tell
17 us -- and he is describing here a crowd walking towards
18 him coming up from the Boss Hogg's area. The last
19 "Allen" on the page is "Yes":
20 Question: "And he indicates to you", that's
21 Rory Robinson, "that he is standing waiting for the
22 crowd to join him and, as you said, you looked back and
23 you see this crowd walking up. They are a bit
24 boisterous, they are a bit happy and there is a few
25 females in the crowd, so who did you see in the crowd
97
1 coming? Who do you know that is in that crowd?
2 "Allen: As I said, the first people that I would
3 have seen would have been Allister Hanvey and
4 Dennis Hayes."
5 Question: "Right. What do you mean? Do you say
6 they were leading this group? They were at the head of
7 this group?
8 "Allen: At the front of it, yes."
9 So there is Mr Allen, who you know, putting you at
10 the head of a group walking up, and there is no reason
11 why you wouldn't have been walking up, because you have
12 described to us that you would have been walking up past
13 Thomas Street, but he has you walking up there with
14 Mr Hanvey. Now, can you recall that?
15 A. No. Like I say, I just motored on home, from what I can
16 remember.
17 Q. By the time you gave your statement to the police in
18 May 1997, did you know that Mr Hamill had died?
19 A. I heard it on the radio that he had died.
20 Q. Did you realise that's why you were being interviewed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you realise that, amongst others, Mr Hanvey had been
23 arrested for his murder?
24 A. Yes, I heard that he had been arrested, and a few
25 others.
98
1 Q. So if you had been walking up with Mr Hanvey in
2 April 1997, when you were interviewed in May 1997, would
3 you have realised that was important to the police?
4 A. Well, like I say, I can't really remember walking up, if
5 I was with him, but I doubt very much, like.
6 Q. What I am trying to get is not so much your memory
7 now --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and I appreciate it is a long time ago, but this: if
10 you had been asked in May 1997 who you were walking up
11 with and you remembered at that stage that you had been
12 walking up with Mr Hanvey, would you have told the
13 police?
14 A. Probably yes.
15 Q. What impression did you have about the wisdom of telling
16 the police, in 1997, about any Protestant who might have
17 done something violent?
18 A. What do you mean?
19 Q. I mean, did you think it would be good for your health
20 if you told the police if you had seen a Protestant
21 doing something which may have ended up getting him
22 convicted?
23 A. Probably not, no.
24 Q. If we look at page [70901], this is the second page of
25 a document that's a questionnaire. I am not suggesting
99
1 it is your questionnaire. It was given by
2 Tracey Clarke. As far as we are aware, this is
3 a version of events which Tracey Clarke has always
4 accepted as being true. She describes the party at
5 Tracy McAlpine's house. If we pick it up at the bottom
6 quarter of the page, do you see about halfway down this
7 there is a line that says:
8 "Party at house."
9 What she is doing is describing people whom she saw
10 there:
11 "Tracy McAlpine.
12 "Pauline Newell.
13 "Kelly Lavery.
14 "Allister Hanvey.
15 "[Stephen Sinnamon]", who we don't need to worry about:
16 "'Fonzy'.
17 "Dennis", and what has been blacked out that follows
18 that is "Brownstown".
19 Did you live in Brownstown?
20 A. Yes, I did live in Brownstown, yes.
21 Q. We will ask her about who she meant by "Dennis -
22 Brownstown", but, was that you?
23 A. That I lived in Brownstown?
24 Q. I am asking whether you saw her that night.
25 A. Yes, I seen her on the Coach bus.
100
1 Q. Did you see her at the party, though? Would that jog
2 your memory about whether you went?
3 A. I can't remember being at a party. Like I say, I just
4 went on home.
5 Q. Finally, I would like you to look, please, at
6 page [80416]. If we just flick through the four
7 pages of this, do you remember that you were interviewed
8 by the Inquiry?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. They drafted a statement coming out of what you said in
11 interview, and this is what that is. This was sent to
12 you through your solicitors in November last year. Did
13 you get that letter?
14 A. What date was it? Sorry.
15 Q. 10th November 2008.
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Have you had a chance to look through this statement?
18 A. Yes. I got it there when I went in to see my solicitor
19 about three weeks ago, this statement here.
20 Q. Sorry. I didn't hear half of that.
21 A. Sorry. What do you call it? I got that statement I got
22 there off my solicitor about two weeks ago.
23 Q. Sorry. I thought you said you had got it in November
24 when we sent the letter.
25 A. No.
101
1 Q. Okay. But you have had a chance to go through it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it accurate?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you been asked to sign it?
6 A. No.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. If you wait there, some
8 other questions might come.
9 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
10 MR ADAIR: I have no questions.
11 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
12 MR McGRORY: Sir, I have some. Thank you.
13 Mr Hayes, I want to ask you some questions on behalf
14 of the Hamill family.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Now, when you were interviewed by the Inquiry in 2007,
17 you told the interviewer, Michael Stephens, that you had
18 been to the prison to visit some of those accused of the
19 murder of Mr Hamill.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You described that as being on a particular occasion.
22 It is transcribed as "Bangor day". Can you elaborate on
23 that?
24 A. It is a parade in Bangor.
25 Q. Bangor, County Down?
102
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What kind of parade is it?
3 A. A band parade.
4 Q. What kind of band?
5 A. Orange Lodge.
6 Q. Are you a member of the Orange Lodge?
7 A. No.
8 Q. But at the time you visited these people in prison, you
9 were a member of a band that was connected to
10 an Orange Lodge.
11 A. No, it was just a group of us was going down to watch
12 the band parade.
13 Q. Right. You weren't in the band, you were a spectator,
14 you were down watching everything?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you make a habit of going to Orange band parades to
17 watch?
18 A. Sometimes.
19 Q. Would you have been in the company of other friends who
20 did the same thing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, on the day on which you -- on the way back from
23 Bangor, you obviously detoured on the way home to go to
24 Maghaberry Prison.
25 A. No, we went there first.
103
1 Q. You went there on the way to the parade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That was a detour, obviously. You had to come off the
4 motorway and go down to the prison. Isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who else was with you visiting those who were accused of
7 the murder of Robert Hamill?
8 A. I can't mind. There was just a group of us, and we
9 decided to go down. Somebody had passes. So they
10 decided to go down and see them ones before going to the
11 Bangor parade.
12 Q. Were any of those who were accused of the murder of
13 Robert Hamill friends of yours?
14 A. I would say Marc Hobson.
15 Q. Marc Hobson. Did you see others apart from Marc Hobson
16 when you visited the prison that day?
17 A. I would just say more or less we were all together.
18 I would say there was about 20 of us went up. So it was
19 just more or less free talking about.
20 Q. Did all 20 of you go into the prison together?
21 A. They have got passes or something. I don't know how
22 many people you get on the pass.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I think it's three or so.
25 Q. Well, did three of you go in or more than three of you
104
1 go in?
2 A. No, we all went in together because we had passes. We
3 were all, like, in one room.
4 Q. So would it have worked this way: that each of those who
5 were in custody, in prison for the murder of
6 Robert Hamill, sent out a pass that would cover three
7 people?
8 A. I would say so, yes.
9 Q. Then a number of you, or all of you, on the bus on the
10 way to the parade, there were enough passes to cover all
11 of those who were on the bus?
12 A. Who was on the bus, yes.
13 Q. So all of those who were charged with the murder of
14 Robert Hamill on that occasion came down to see you all
15 on the way to the parade?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, would you have had some sympathy with those who
18 were accused of the murder of Robert Hamill?
19 A. Well, yes and no.
20 Q. If you had seen any of those who were accused of the
21 murder of Robert Hamill, or, indeed, any of those who
22 escaped being accused of it do any wrong on the night
23 that Mr Hamill was attacked, would you have told the
24 police?
25 A. What's that again? Sorry.
105
1 Q. Sorry. The question was a bit long-winded. I grant you
2 that.
3 Is it the case that if you had seen anybody do
4 anything to Robert Hamill or be involved in the fighting
5 that night, that you just wouldn't have told the police?
6 A. It depends. I don't know.
7 Q. Well --
8 A. I have never been in the situation, like.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We shan't know unless you tell us. You said
10 "It depends, you know". What does it depend on?
11 A. Maybe if it was somebody like family or something.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You would not tell on family. Is that it?
13 A. Yes. Probably.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: And others who weren't family?
15 A. I don't know.
16 MR McGRORY: It would have been difficult for you, wouldn't
17 it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you have been afraid?
20 A. Been afraid?
21 Q. Of anybody, of the consequences if you had told about
22 anything you had seen?
23 A. Well, the way things are, probably yes. Things did.
24 Q. A previous witness has already told the Inquiry that
25 they would have been afraid of paramilitaries. Would
106
1 you have been afraid of paramilitaries?
2 A. I would say so, yes.
3 Q. Is it your belief that any of those who were accused of
4 Robert Hamill's murder whom you visited in prison were
5 connected with any of the paramilitaries?
6 A. I couldn't honestly tell you if they were or not.
7 Q. Would there have been a belief amongst young people of
8 your generation, who would have been in and around the
9 centre of Portadown on the night Robert Hamill was
10 attacked, that to be forthcoming to the police, to tell
11 the police what they had seen would have been not
12 a clever thing to do?
13 A. Maybe.
14 Q. Well, was there or wasn't there that belief?
15 A. Probably was that belief.
16 Q. Are you telling us everything you saw?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You are represented by Mr Monteith at the interview that
19 you had with the Inquiry. Isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Mr Monteith recommended to you by anyone in
22 particular?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You just found your way to him?
25 A. Yes.
107
1 Q. Has there been any discussion amongst young people who
2 were maybe around that night on 27th April about this
3 Inquiry?
4 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
5 Q. Have you had any discussion with anybody whatsoever
6 about this Inquiry and how you would approach it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you received notification that this Inquiry wanted
9 to speak to you, why did you go to Mr Monteith?
10 A. Just went to him. Just I went looking through the phone
11 book for a solicitor.
12 Q. You see, there is a pattern emerging of people and they
13 all seem to be represented by Mr Monteith, who have
14 an inability to either remember anything at all about
15 the night, or who were present but saw nothing.
16 So what I am suggesting to you is: is there some
17 discussion among a group of people that, whatever you do
18 in your connections with this Inquiry, you saw nothing,
19 you heard nothing, or you can remember nothing?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Sorry?
22 A. No-one come to me to say to go to Richard Monteith.
23 I just went myself.
24 Q. And you spoke to nobody at all about coming to this
25 Inquiry?
108
1 A. I never spoke to no-one.
2 Q. You didn't tell anyone you were concerned and say "What
3 should I do?"
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn't contact anyone else and say "Are you going?"
6 A. No.
7 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
9 MS DINSMORE: Just briefly, Mr Chairman.
10 What age were you in 1997?
11 A. I would have been 18.
12 Q. What level of drink had you taken on the night in
13 question?
14 A. A right bit, like.
15 Q. Would you have been drunk?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.
18 MR McCOMB: No questions.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Hayes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You are free now to go.
23 A. Okay.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I was going to call next Mr Sinnamon,
109
1 who unhappily has moved house this week without telling
2 anybody that he had done that. The Inquiry sent a taxi
3 for him, which, of course, didn't emerge with him, but
4 we have made contact with him by phone since then. He
5 has been rescheduled for next week. So I am sorry to
6 say it is an early day.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Again. Yes. Do we need to sit at 10 o'clock
8 or 10.30 tomorrow?
9 MR UNDERWOOD: We have five witnesses tomorrow, one of whom
10 is slated for early afternoon. I would have thought
11 10.30 is adequate.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I think, to be on the safe side, we will sit
13 at 10 o'clock.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: So be it.
15 (2.25 pm)
16 (The hearing adjourned until 10.00 am tomorrow morning)
17
18 --ooOoo--
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
110
1 I N D E X
2
3
MR DAVID JOHN MORROW (sworn) ..................... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 22
5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 24
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 25
6 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 27
Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 30
7 Questions from REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN ..... 31
RICHARDSON
8 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 31
9 MR CHRISTOPHER JAMES ANDREW ...................... 32
HENDERSON (affirmed)
10 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 32
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 45
11 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 48
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 49
12 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 50
Further cross-examination by MR McGRORY ... 53
13 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 54
14 MR KYLE MAGEE (sworn) ............................ 55
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 55
15 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 66
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 73
16 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 85
Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 85
17 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 87
18 MR DENNIS WAYNE HAYES (sworn) .................... 89
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 89
19 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 102
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 109
20
21
22
23
24
25
111
