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Hearing: 18th February 2009, day 18
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Wednesday, 18th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 18
1 Wednesday, 18th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (10.40 am)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry we are late, Mr Underwood. There were
6 one or two matters which had to be attended to at short
7 notice.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course.
9 I will call Joe Black, if I may.
10 MR JOSEPH BLACK (sworn)
11
12 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Black. It is coming from over
14 here. It is not easy to find out which speaker is doing
15 what. My name is Underwood. I am the lawyer for the
16 Inquiry. I will be asking some questions to start with.
17 Some other people may ask some after that. Okay?
18 First of all, can I get you to tell us your full
19 names, please?
20 A. Joseph Black.
21 Q. If we look on the screen at page [80059] and go through
22 the next couple of pages, is that a witness statement
23 which you have now signed for the Inquiry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it true?
1
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much. I want to ask you, first of all,
3 how old you were in April 1997.
4 A. I am 30 now. So -- '97, is it? My maths is bad.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: About 18.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: An unfair question to start with. I think
7 you appreciate what we are doing here is trying to get
8 from witnesses the best recollection they can give us of
9 the events of the night of 27th April 1997, because what
10 the Inquiry is particularly interested in is whether
11 police in a Land Rover would have seen a fight, whether
12 they got out to help Mr Hamill, and, if they did get
13 out, what they saw when they got out. So we are asking
14 everybody who was in the area whether they can tell us
15 anything about how the fight started, what sort of shape
16 it was in and what the police did, if anything.
17 Can I get you to look at a map, please? We have the
18 standard Inquiry map. I don't know how familiar you are
19 with maps of Portadown. If you look at the top right,
20 there is a sort of Y junction. It has some circles with
21 letters in with arrows attached to those. 'A' is Herron's
22 Country Fried Chicken. 'C' is Boss Hogg's. There are some
23 barriers there as well. We can enlarge it if you want.
24 That is High Street. You can see it goes down
25 towards the left, towards the bottom, and then
2
1 West Street branches off from it on the right. Are you
2 familiar with the scene?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We have heard evidence that you were with your brother
5 and you started off your walk up the town from the
6 barriers where those letters A, B and C are. Is that
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How good is your recollection of the night?
10 A. I can remember getting off the bus and walking up the
11 town, and I think it was -- that's right -- going to
12 West Street up the side of the church.
13 Q. Would you have got off on the Boss Hogg's side of the
14 street when you got off the bus?
15 A. I can't exactly remember now, but it was round that
16 area. If it wasn't, it was Country Fried Chicken, that
17 kind of area.
18 Q. Do you think you had to cross the road on the night,
19 cross the High Street, to get on to the West Street
20 side?
21 A. At some point I did. I think I crossed at the top of
22 the church.
23 Q. So if we look at a model, which will come up on the
24 screen, this is put together from a collection of
25 photographs. They are, as it were, taken by
3
1 Eastwoods Clothing.
2 If we scroll round to the right, you can see the
3 scene looking down the High Street there. Here is
4 Number 7 Bakery. Looking down Thomas Street now. This
5 is Eastwoods itself. Looking up towards the church and
6 West Street there. There is Woodhouse Street. If we
7 pause it around there, you can see we have put
8 a Land Rover in there. The purpose of that really is to
9 ask people whether they can tell us if they saw
10 a Land Rover, and, if they did, whether that's where it
11 was or if it was somewhere different to that.
12 Now, did you see a Land Rover?
13 A. I can't remember. It could have been. I think I said
14 in my statement that, at that time, it wouldn't have
15 been unusual to see a Land Rover there, like. You could
16 have seen one or two and I wouldn't have took it under
17 my notice.
18 Q. If we look at page [15544] and highlight the text of the
19 second half of it, this is a note that the police put
20 together after Detective Sergeant Bradley interviewed
21 you, I think on 19th June 2000. Can I just run you
22 through it? It says he interviewed you at 10 o'clock:
23 "On the 26th April... he went to the Coach in Banbridge.
24 He travelled back from the Coach by bus, arriving in
25 Portadown about 1.30 am. He was accompanied by his
4
1 brother Mark and Jason Woods. As far as he can recall,
2 he went to Herron's Country Fried Chicken and got
3 something to eat."
4 Now, can you help us with that? Do you remember
5 talking to Sergeant Bradley?
6 A. I think there was somebody interviewed me. I can't
7 remember his name.
8 Q. When you were interviewed by the police officer, did you
9 tell him what you remembered then?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Dealing with this point that you went to Herron's
12 Country Fried Chicken and got something to eat, can you
13 remember that now?
14 A. I actually don't think I did get something to eat that
15 night, unless I've got my wires crossed. I thought
16 maybe it was Jason went for something to eat. I don't
17 think I actually got anything to eat that night.
18 Q. Okay. Then:
19 "(Black stated that he had taken a few drinks in
20 Banbridge, but that he was not drunk)."
21 Can you help us with that?
22 A. That would be true enough, like.
23 Q. Sorry?
24 A. That would be right enough. I had a few drinks, but ...
25 Q. Okay. Then:
5
1 "He then walked up the Main Street in Portadown with
2 his brother. He was going to stay the night in the
3 brother's flat in xxxxxxxxxx, so they walked up
4 West Street. When at the Job Centre in West Street, he
5 heard a commotion/shouting down in the centre of
6 town. He walked back down to the big church and he was
7 told by others that there was fighting going on down the
8 town. He did not go any further than the church. He
9 did not see or recognise anyone fighting that night in
10 the town centre. He could not recall seeing any police
11 or police vehicles in the town centre that night, but
12 stated that normally there is a police Land Rover in the
13 town centre."
14 So there you are telling the police than that you
15 got a bit up West Street, heard a commotion or shouting
16 in the centre of town and walked back down to the church
17 and other people told you there was fighting going on.
18 Now, with the aid of that, can you remember what you
19 heard and saw?
20 A. It was just shouting and stuff. I didn't, you know, see
21 anything as such, but I heard commotion at the time.
22 I thought it could have been ones on the bus could have
23 been fighting amongst themselves at that time. I wasn't
24 aware that it was actually Protestants and Catholics
25 fighting.
6
1 Q. It is right, is it, that you went back down and stayed
2 by the church?
3 A. I don't think we stayed that long, if we did. I thought
4 we had went on up the road, but if I said to him I've
5 stopped, I must have, but I wouldn't have stayed any
6 length of time.
7 Q. Okay. Can you help us about whether any police officers
8 were on the street?
9 A. No. As I say, I just didn't see them that I can
10 remember of, like. Back then, it was normal to see
11 police more so than now, like.
12 Q. Can you help us whether the fight was building up as you
13 walked past the centre of the town or whether, as far as
14 you were concerned, it was quiet in the middle and this
15 happened after you got well past it?
16 A. Yes. I never -- when we were walking up the town, we --
17 I can't be 100% sure we were the first ones going that
18 way, but there was no fighting in front of me. You
19 know, there was no fighting at all.
20 Q. Uh-huh. Your brother came and gave evidence to us
21 yesterday. He said that he was about five minutes at
22 the area of the church. He was finishing off a bottle
23 of beer.
24 Does that help your recollection?
25 A. I can't remember him drinking a bottle of beer. I am
7
1 not saying he wasn't. It is not something I can
2 remember.
3 Q. What he says is that it was at the end of the
4 five minutes that he was there that he saw or heard some
5 sort of commotion down in the town; in other words, that
6 he was there before the fighting started, and that he
7 was with you.
8 Can you comment on that?
9 A. I just can't remember any of that. Sorry. All
10 I remembered was walking up the town and around the
11 church clock when I heard the commotion, or around that
12 area.
13 Q. Can you remember whether you walked back to your
14 brother's flat with him or did you walk back to his
15 place after he had moved on there?
16 A. No, I think I walked all the way with my brother, so
17 I did.
18 Q. The reason I ask you is, if you look at the last few
19 lines of what we have on screen here, it says:
20 "He", that's you, "walked to Mark's flat with approx
21 6 people, but none of them came in. They all walked on
22 to their own houses. He could not recall who these
23 6 persons were."
24 Are you saying it was about six people and your
25 brother?
8
1 A. I think it was my brother as well. I was staying at his
2 house, so I would have to have been with him at some
3 point.
4 Q. Okay. Is there anything else you can remember about the
5 evening that you think might help the Inquiry?
6 A. Just after reading that bit about the six people, there
7 was ones, they lived further in the Brownstown housing
8 estate, that I would have been walking up with where my
9 brother had a flat in xxxxxxxxxx.
10 Q. Can you remember anybody's names now, or nicknames?
11 A. As a rule, if we were going to the Coach or coming home
12 from any bars, I might have been walking up with the
13 likes of Jason Woods. I can't remember for definite
14 that night, but there is ones from Brownstown there who
15 would have been going to their houses and I would have
16 been going to my brother's, like.
17 Q. Do any other names come to mind other than Jason Woods?
18 A. No.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. As I say, others may
20 ask some questions.
21 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
23 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
24 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
25 I wonder if I may have the map up again of
9
1 Portadown, please?
2 Now, as I understand it, just to encapsulate your
3 journey down from when you got off the bus, as you made
4 your way down with the company you were in, there was
5 nothing going on in the street that would cause anybody
6 any alarm. Is that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. It was like a normal Saturday night?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As you passed the junction -- you know the junction of
11 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street. Had you crossed the
12 road before then, can you remember, or --
13 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think I was on the left
14 side of town going up it, maybe, you know, round
15 Eastwoods. So I think I crossed somewhere along there
16 or maybe at the top of the church.
17 Q. Right. So you may have crossed somewhere around the
18 junction or somewhere up closer to the church. The
19 impression I get is you can't really remember -- is that
20 right -- precisely where you crossed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You didn't see a Land Rover parked at the junction of
23 Woodhouse Street?
24 A. I never noticed it. As I say, there could have been one
25 and I just never ...
10
1 Q. Could that maybe be because there would be nothing
2 unusual in seeing a Land Rover parked there on
3 a Saturday night?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Just so we are absolutely clear, there was nothing that
6 happened that caused you any alarm or was out of the
7 ordinary until you had got to about the Job Centre?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Now, it may be -- and if so, I apologise -- that the
10 Job Centre has been identified. Can you help us as to
11 where the Job Centre is? It is in West Street, is it?
12 A. Yes. It was further up past towards the church. It was
13 round that direction.
14 Q. Approximately how far past the church?
15 A. Roughly 30, 40 yards, I think.
16 Q. Right. It was there that you heard a commotion?
17 A. Yes. When I said the Job Centre, it was the best place
18 I could describe at the time.
19 Q. I understand you are giving an approximate as opposed to
20 a definite.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you then went back down to the church, you were
23 told there was fighting in the town by somebody?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. My impression of what you have told us is you didn't see
11
1 any fighting.
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Am I right in saying that when you went back down to the
4 church and were told there was fighting, that you left
5 the area of the church very quickly?
6 A. Well, I just walked on, because I knew it was further
7 down the town -- well, I guessed it was further down the
8 town and nothing really ...
9 Q. Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say "walked on", in which direction?
11 A. Walked on home then.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, you turned round?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR ADAIR: So you didn't look down to see what was going on
15 down at the junction really? You were told there was
16 fighting and about-turn and made your way home?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You didn't really look down to see what was going on?
19 You didn't see the fighting? You didn't see who was
20 there? You didn't see what was going on?
21 A. No.
22 MR ADAIR: Thanks very much, Mr Black.
23 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
24 MR McGRORY: Just a couple of matters, sir.
25 Mr Black, I want to ask you some questions on behalf
12
1 of the Hamill family. I just want to make it clear
2 there is no suggestion you did anything wrong on this
3 night. You may be able to help us with the sequence of
4 events.
5 Now, in that document, [15544], that you have
6 already been shown, which is the note of the police
7 officer of what you told him, when you say about the
8 middle of that document in that section that relates to
9 you that:
10 "He walked back down to the big church and he was
11 told by others that there was fighting going on ..."
12 Do you see that bit? It is about the middle of the
13 document. You have just discussed it with my learned
14 friend here as well that others told you there was
15 something going on.
16 Do you have any recollection as to who that might
17 have been who told you there was something going on?
18 A. I maybe recognised the faces. It wasn't anyone in the
19 company, like. That night there, there was two busloads
20 went to the Coach -- or not just necessarily the Coach,
21 the Belmont or wherever in Banbridge.
22 Q. Would Jason Woods still have been with you at this
23 point?
24 A. I think he was. I can't be 100% sure at that time. As
25 I say, from what I recall, originally myself and I was
13
1 staying with -- my brother rented a flat at that time.
2 Q. Jason Woods has said he was with a chap called
3 Paul Currie. Does that name ring any bells?
4 A. Yes, I know Paul Currie.
5 Q. You know Paul Currie. Would he have been still with you
6 at this point -- or was he with you at all, sorry?
7 A. I don't think he was, but, again, as I say, I can't
8 remember 100% about that there either, but I do know
9 Paul Currie.
10 Q. There were maybe about six people in your company going
11 up West Street at this point. Isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you remember, was Shelley Liggett one of them?
14 A. No, I can't.
15 Q. Does that name ring any bells?
16 A. I know her from school just, but ...
17 Q. Can you remember, Mr Black, would any of the people in
18 your company when you went back down to the church to
19 have a look have run on down towards the fighting?
20 A. Not in my own company, no.
21 Q. Not that you can recall?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, I just want to ask you about what you might have
24 heard about this incident after it had happened.
25 When the people who were coming up towards
14
1 West Street informed you that there was fighting going
2 on in the town, did they give you any detail at all?
3 A. No. I didn't know myself if it was -- I thought at the
4 time maybe it was people on the bus fighting with
5 themselves. I didn't know until the next day it was
6 Protestant and Catholic.
7 Q. I just want to take you to a passage now. Again,
8 I can't put this on the screen. It is just an answer
9 that you gave to Mr Pinfield who interviewed you for the
10 Inquiry a couple of years ago. It is on page 17 of that
11 transcript. He asked you about what you had heard
12 afterwards. Here is what you said just:
13 "Well, they would have talked about it. I mean,
14 stories go round, especially if someone had been killed.
15 I didn't necessarily realise what was happening. It
16 wasn't until the next morning and I realised it was
17 that Catholic."
18 Now the answer:
19 "It wasn't until the next morning that I realised it
20 was that Catholic."
21 That would suggest to me that you knew someone had
22 had a beating?
23 A. Yes. Well, I knew somebody was fighting, but, I didn't
24 mean it as if it was that Catholic. I just meant
25 I didn't know it was a Catholic. Sorry.
15
1 Q. It would not be that you knew someone was getting
2 a hiding rather than just fighting that night?
3 A. No, I didn't know.
4 Q. You see, you say:
5 "At the time, people were coming up saying they
6 were fighting, and somebody said it was Catholic and
7 then somebody else said it was amongst themselves.
8 I just didn't know, so we went on home at the time, and
9 it wasn't till the next morning, as I say, I was down
10 at my brother's... And I can't remember the exact words...
11 but it was announcements or something said it was badly
12 injured."
13 So would it be the case then that the next morning
14 you listened to the radio or something? Is that
15 correct?
16 A. I think it was Teletext as well. I think the next
17 morning I was sleeping on the couch and I put the TV on.
18 I think it said it was Protestants and Nationalists
19 fighting. I can't remember exactly now, like.
20 Q. Is that something you would have done on impulse or did
21 you wake up and go, "I had better check the news to see
22 what exactly happened last night"?
23 A. It didn't really occur to me at the time. Just when
24 I put Teletext on, the local news, and then, as I say,
25 I think maybe -- I can't remember exactly now, as I say,
16
1 but I might have heard on the radio and then Teletext to
2 find out more about it when I was in town, like.
3 Q. So it would be fair to say this was a newsworthy item in
4 Portadown, that there was some talk about it?
5 A. It would have been.
6 Q. Obviously, it was of interest to you, because you had
7 been in close proximity to it.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said to the Inquiry in that interview that people
10 did talk about it afterwards. Can you remember what
11 sorts of things were being said?
12 A. Well, just then -- like, I didn't know Robert Hamill at
13 all, but I just heard then, you know, the news had came
14 out he was a Catholic, just about there was different
15 ones arrested. I went to school with one of the fellows
16 who was arrested. He was in my class. So I knew him.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. Dean Forbes.
19 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.
20 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
21 MR McCOMB: No questions.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
23 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one thing, Mr Black. You had been
25 drinking that night, had you?
17
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What sort of condition were you in by the time you left
3 and got off the bus?
4 A. Well, I can't really recall how bad I was, but at that
5 time I probably would have remembered more the next
6 morning. You know, it is hard to say how badly I was,
7 but I can remember getting off the bus. I remember in
8 my brother's house, like.
9 Q. So you were at least to some extent affected by drink
10 that night, were you?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Black.
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Jason Woods, please.
16 MR JASON TERRENCE WOODS (sworn)
17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Woods.
19 A. How are you doing?
20 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
21 I will ask some questions of you. It may be that some
22 other people will ask a few after that.
23 Can I ask you, first of all, your full names?
24 A. Jason Terrence Woods.
25 Q. I think you were 18 in April 1997. Is that right?
18
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. I think you made a witness statement -- if we can have
3 a look at it -- at page [09183]. It is just
4 a one-page statement which you made on 16th May 1997.
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What we are doing here is trying to find out as best we
8 can from people what they saw on the night of
9 21st April, or the morning, rather, because what the
10 Inquiry is finding out is whether police saw fighting
11 going on and stayed in the Land Rover or whether they
12 got out and helped Mr Hamill, and, if they did get out,
13 what they saw going on when they did.
14 So we are calling a large number of people who were
15 around the place just to tell us what they saw going on
16 on the night. We know it is 12 years ago.
17 With that, can I get you to look at a map and tell
18 us what you remember about events that night? Are you
19 familiar with this map for a start? Towards the top
20 right-hand corner there is an A, B, C in circles that
21 represent the area where the barriers are at that end of
22 the town. Herron's Country Fried Chicken and Boss Hogg's
23 is at C there. You see, as it goes down towards the
24 left at High Street, it passes the junction with
25 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street. Then it forks and
19
1 the right-hand fork is the West Street one.
2 Did you arrive in town from the Coach Inn on the bus?
3 A. Yes, I did, yes.
4 Q. Would that have dropped you then at the barriers at the
5 area around A, B, C?
6 A. In front of Herron's, yes.
7 Q. Do you remember which side of the road you were on
8 there? Did you start on the Boss Hogg's side of the
9 road?
10 A. When I was walking home?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes, the Boss Hogg's side of the road.
13 Q. Did you end up having to go up West Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you would have crossed the road at some point?
16 A. Crossed the road, yes.
17 Q. Can you remember where you crossed it?
18 A. Up -- St Mark's Church, in front of it.
19 Q. We have a model that we put together. Perhaps we can
20 have a look at that on the screen. We can turn that
21 through 360 degrees. Looking down the High Street there
22 of course, this is the mouth of Thomas Street, that is
23 Number 7 Bakery of course. Jamesons. This is
24 swivelling around a point that's just outside Eastwoods.
25 You can look down. There is the church, West Street.
20
1 You can see we have put a Land Rover in there.
2 Now, you think you got down the road on this side of
3 the road until you reached the church, do you, and
4 crossed over at about the church?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you would have passed the mouth of Thomas Street, do
7 you think?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Can you help us with whether you saw a Land Rover?
10 A. I can't really mind whether I did or not see
11 a Land Rover.
12 Q. Okay. Can you -- sorry?
13 A. I can't really remember whether I did see a Land Rover
14 or not.
15 Q. All right. Can you remember what the state of the place
16 was? Were other people walking up? Was it busy?
17 A. Well, it was busy outside Herron's where the bus had
18 pulled up, but as I was walking up the town, it wasn't
19 busy, like. Hardly anybody in the town.
20 Q. I think you say that you were walking up with
21 Paul Currie?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember that now?
24 A. I remember I walked up with Paul Currie, yes.
25 Q. Okay. Back at [09183] -- we don't need to look at it --
21
1 you told the police you had been walking up more or less
2 behind Tracy McAlpine, Pauline Newell and Kelly Lavery,
3 and you caught up with them about Mandeville Street.
4 Do you remember that?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. It follows then that at least those girls were ahead of
7 you. Do you remember any other people ahead of you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you remember anybody behind you?
10 A. No. Just, as I say, the people that got off the bus at
11 Herron's, but they were down round at Herron's, like.
12 Q. You see, one of the things we are interested in, of
13 course, is whether there was a steady stream of people
14 coming up or whether they were coming up in groups well
15 spread out. So the girls were ahead of you and you
16 caught them up?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you remember whether the people who were coming up
19 behind you were close by or whether it was all spread
20 out or what?
21 A. I would say it was spread out, like. I don't recall
22 them coming up directly behind me, like.
23 Q. Okay. We know that this is an area where fights would
24 break out from time to time, particularly at weekends,
25 at this junction. Were you aware of that?
22
1 A. I was aware.
2 Q. When you went up past the top of Thomas Street, do you
3 have any recollection of anything going on there? Was
4 there any noise, any people in Thomas Street, any
5 trouble?
6 A. No. The town was quiet when I went through it.
7 Q. Can I get you to look at some other pieces of evidence
8 that we have, to see whether you can comment on that for
9 us?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we look at page [09135], this is a statement of
12 somebody called David Gray. He called himself
13 "Rat" Gray. Do you know him?
14 A. I do, yes.
15 Q. About one third of the way down here he says -- let us
16 have a look at it enlarged. Take it from the third
17 line down here:
18 "Philip", that's Philip Curran, "and I then went to
19 the Buffs Club until about 1.00 am or shortly after. We got
20 a taxi from the football club to the Buffs. When we
21 left the Buffs, we went to get a Chinese carry-out at
22 West Street. We walked to the Chinese and, on the way
23 in, a young fellow going past said they were killing
24 each other down the town."
25 Now, it looks as if it might well have been
23
1 Paul Currie who said that. Before I ask you a question
2 about it, let me also show you page [09630]. This is
3 Philip Curran. He talks about going to the Buffs with
4 David Gray. Then, the fourth line down on the
5 right-hand side:
6 "We decided to go to West Street for a Chinese and,
7 when we arrived there, a young fellow called Paul Currie
8 said there was a lot of trouble down the town."
9 So you see what's going on here?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Paul Currie, by the time he gets into West Street, is
12 able to tell Philip Curran and "Rat" Gray either that
13 they are killing each other down the town or they are
14 fighting down the town or there is a lot of trouble down
15 the town.
16 Of course, you have come up through the town with
17 Paul Currie.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Can you tell us how it is that Paul could have said
20 those things?
21 A. I don't know why Paul has said them.
22 Q. Did you split up from him at some point?
23 A. No. No, I would have been with Paul the way home.
24 Q. If we look at page [09181], this is a statement of
25 Shelley Liggett. If we enlarge the middle third of it,
24
1 about halfway down this on the right-hand side she says:
2 "Outside I spotted Paul Currie", this is outside
3 Boss Hogg's, "and said, 'I'll walk up with you', as he
4 lives in [blank] not far from Tracy Newell's."
5 It goes on:
6 "I didn't notice anyone else at the time. Between
7 Edward Street and Thomas Street junctions both of us
8 crossed the Main Street and passed a police Land Rover,
9 which was parked beside the building society at the
10 junction of Woodhouse Street. When Paul and me got past
11 Bennetts and into West Street I heard shouting and
12 a siren. I looked back down the street towards the
13 centre of the town and saw a crowd, maybe ten people."
14 So she is saying that at least for some part of the
15 walk up the town she, too, is with Paul Currie, although
16 she does not mention you. Are you clear you were with
17 Paul?
18 A. Yes, definitely.
19 Q. Did you see her? Do you know her, for a start?
20 A. I know Shelley Liggett, aye.
21 Q. Do you remember her being there for at least part of the
22 walk?
23 A. No, not up through the town, no.
24 Q. I think you knew Stacey Bridgett. Did you?
25 A. I did, yes. Yes.
25
1 Q. And Marc Hobson?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Timothy Jameson?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Kyle Magee?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. "Fonzy"? Andrew Allen?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see any of those on the night?
10 A. I seen them -- I was with Stacey on the bus going home
11 from the Coach.
12 Q. When you got off the coach, do you know what happened to
13 him? Did he get off before you, or behind you or stop
14 for food or whatever?
15 A. I don't know what happened. He must have been still on
16 the bus.
17 Q. Okay. If we look at page [09144] --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say he must have been still on the
19 bus, is that when you got off?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: What we have here on [09144] is the second
22 page of a statement of Kyle Magee. Did you know him?
23 A. I do, yes.
24 Q. If we take the middle three-quarters of it, really
25 starting towards the top there, he says:
26
1 "The next thing I saw was a crowd starting to fight
2 on the middle of the street at the junction of
3 Woodhouse Street with Thomas Street. There would have
4 been about 20 fighting. I started to walk towards the
5 fight and Victoria", that's Clayton, "and Jennifer
6 walked with me. I am not sure if Timothy and Stephen
7 came up the street. I got near the fight. I got close
8 to it. I saw about 20 boys fighting.
9 "The police Land Rover was parked outside the
10 Alliance & Leicester Building Society and I saw a couple
11 of police officers get out of the Land Rover and walk
12 towards the fight. I started shouting at the police.
13 I can't remember what all I called them. I then walked
14 up towards the church with the two girls, Victoria and
15 Jennifer. The crowd was still fighting. I walked up to
16 the church. Jason Woods was standing about there.
17 I walked down to the summer seats just down from the
18 church towards the town centre. I sat down with
19 Victoria and Jennifer for a few minutes and watched the
20 fight."
21 So he is clearly saying there that he is close to
22 the fight. He walks up to the church and continues
23 watching it from the summer seats at the church, and you
24 are there. What do you say about that?
25 A. I go past the church on my way home. I wasn't hanging
27
1 about the church, like.
2 Q. But he is saying at the point where you were at the
3 church, whether you were hanging around or not, the
4 fighting is going on. Do you have no recollection at
5 all of anything of that sort?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can we have a look, please, at page [81291]? Just
8 scroll through three pages of that, please. Have you
9 seen this document before?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. The one I am just getting you to look at on the screen?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that a draft statement which the Inquiry put together
14 for you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When did you first see it?
17 A. I don't know when now I have seen it. I can't really
18 say how long I have seen it ago, but ...
19 Q. Did the Inquiry send you a copy of it and ask you to
20 sign it?
21 A. They did, yes.
22 Q. Why didn't you?
23 A. I was told I was under no obligation to sign anything.
24 Q. Who told you that?
25 A. My solicitor.
28
1 Q. Who is your solicitor?
2 A. Richard Monteith.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
4 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
5 MR FERGUSON: That draft statement which was sent to you and
6 you didn't sign, Mr Woods, at the end of it, the last
7 paragraph, [81293], there is a reference:
8 "If I had seen anything that night of relevance,
9 I probably would not have come forward."
10 Is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Why would you not want to assist the police in their
13 enquiries?
14 A. Because the area I lived in, I would have feared for my
15 own safety.
16 Q. Yes. I can understand your fear from other people, but
17 did you have a fear of the police?
18 A. I wouldn't have had a fear of the police.
19 Q. Would you not have been desirous of helping the police,
20 if you could help them out in any way as to what had
21 happened on that particular night?
22 A. It is hard to say until you are put in the position if
23 you did know anything, but the area I grew up in, the
24 way things were at that time, you wouldn't have went to
25 the police. If you did know anything, you wouldn't have
29
1 went.
2 Q. So you wouldn't voluntarily have gone to the police?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If the police had come to you, would you have been
5 prepared to tell them what you knew, if anything?
6 A. It is hard to say until I am put in that situation. You
7 know, until I am put in that position, I don't know what
8 I would have done.
9 Q. Just to understand, I am asking for your help and the
10 fault may well be mine as to why you would not be
11 prepared to be of assistance to the police.
12 A. The simple reason that I would have been afraid.
13 I wouldn't have been involved with the police. You
14 just -- you wouldn't have done it.
15 Q. Did that apply to most of your friends?
16 A. I can't answer for the rest of my friends. I can only
17 answer for myself.
18 Q. That's a fair -- precisely. That's a very fair answer.
19 You went on to say at the end of that unsigned
20 statement:
21 "At the time, it was fairly common for people from
22 the Brownstown Estate to keep to themselves and avoid
23 contact with the police."
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Do you not trust the police?
30
1 A. It is nothing -- it is nothing to do with whether you
2 trust the police or not. It is just the way things were
3 run back then. You just kept yourself to yourself. You
4 wouldn't have went to the police with anything. Any
5 problem at all, you wouldn't have went to the police.
6 Q. Even if the police had said to you, "Look, whatever you
7 tell us, we will treat it in confidence and won't tell
8 anybody else", would that have been of any assistance to
9 you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Nothing the police could have done would have persuaded
12 you to help them in their enquiries?
13 A. No.
14 Q. That's what it comes to?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 MR FERGUSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
17 MR ADAIR: No questions.
18 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
19 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir, if I may.
20 Mr Woods, I want to ask you some questions on behalf
21 of the Hamill family.
22 Now, just picking up on the matters raised by my
23 learned friend there, Mr Ferguson, in terms of why
24 people might have been reluctant to come forward about
25 what they had observed on the night, you have said that
31
1 people kept themselves to themselves. Is that right?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And that you might have been afraid to have come
4 forward?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Well, if you were afraid, could you please tell us just
7 whom you might have been afraid of?
8 A. Paramilitaries.
9 Q. Yes. What paramilitaries would you be talking about?
10 A. Any sort.
11 Q. You come from the Brownstown Estate. Isn't that
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You would be talking about paramilitaries from within
15 your own estate. Isn't that right?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. The principal paramilitary group in your estate would
18 have been the UVF at this time?
19 A. Couldn't tell you.
20 Q. Now, if you are telling the Inquiry that you in
21 particular, and perhaps others, would have been afraid
22 to have come forward with what they might have observed
23 because of fear of what the paramilitaries might do --
24 isn't that correct? That's your evidence?
25 A. Uh-huh.
32
1 Q. Are you not able to tell us which paramilitary group you
2 are talking about?
3 A. Just Loyalist paramilitaries.
4 Q. What other Loyalist paramilitaries apart from the UVF
5 operated in 1997 in the Brownstown Estate.
6 A. I don't know what paramilitaries operated. All I know
7 is that there were paramilitaries that were operating.
8 In any estate, it wasn't just Brownstown Estate.
9 Q. No, but you are telling us you have grown up and lived
10 in the Brownstown Estate and there was a fear of
11 paramilitaries. That's right?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. But you are not going to tell us which paramilitary
14 group?
15 A. No. I don't know what it was.
16 Q. Are you so afraid of the UVF that you are not even going
17 to mention the word, the name?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the answer?
19 A. No.
20 MR McGRORY: Do you really expect this Panel to believe,
21 Mr Woods, that if there was a fear that existed among
22 young people in the Brownstown Estate of what
23 paramilitaries might say or do if you are seen to
24 cooperate with the police about this incident, that you
25 just cannot tell us who those paramilitaries were?
33
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Can you tell us of any other group other than the UVF
3 operating at that time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Well, you had heard of the UVF at that time?
6 A. I have heard of the UVF, aye.
7 Q. So do you accept then, Mr Woods, that the paramilitary
8 group that you are afraid of was the UVF?
9 A. No, I don't accept that.
10 Q. Well, is it one of the paramilitary groups you were
11 afraid of?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Republican or Loyalist?
14 A. Loyalist.
15 MR McGRORY: Can you help us with the names of any of the
16 other paramilitary Loyalist groups at all?
17 A. The UDA.
18 Q. Were they known to operate in the Brownstown Estate?
19 A. I don't know whether they operated in it or not. I just
20 know there were Loyalist paramilitaries operating in.
21 Q. Now, can I just talk to you for a little bit about who
22 was in your company that night, Mr Woods? If I could
23 have document [15544] back on the screen, please. Thank
24 you. That's the relevant bit.
25 This is a passage of what Joseph Black told
34
1 Detective Sergeant Bradley, we think about the year
2 2000, about his recollection of events. He said he was
3 accompanied by his brother Mark and Jason Woods. Do you
4 see that?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Now, do you the Black brothers, Mark and Joseph?
7 A. I do, yes.
8 Q. Did you know them then?
9 A. I did, yes.
10 Q. Do you accept that you were in their company that night?
11 A. When are you saying? At any stage?
12 Q. Yes. At any stage. Let's start with that.
13 A. Well, I could have been in their company, yes, but
14 I can't really remember whether I was or not, but I was
15 friends with the two boys, like, so there was a good
16 chance I was in their company that night.
17 Q. You are mentioned by them as being in their company. So
18 you would have accept they would have no reason to put
19 your name in there if they didn't remember that?
20 A. No, there is no reason.
21 Q. You have said that, of course, you knew and were with
22 Paul Currie on the night.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you remember, were you all together as a group going
25 up through Thomas Street, up through Market Street into
35
1 West Street?
2 A. No, we wasn't together. There was a group on up the
3 town.
4 Q. It is just that the evidence we heard yesterday would
5 suggest that those -- and indeed this morning -- who
6 were just past the church going into West Street about
7 the Job Centre would have heard the commotion/shouting
8 at this point, that they could hear it from West Street.
9 Now, are you saying you didn't hear anything?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You are absolutely certain about that?
12 A. Absolutely certain.
13 Q. Do you know Tracey Clarke?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember seeing Tracey Clarke that night?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. Do you know Shelley Liggett?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Kelly Lavery?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tracy McAlpine?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Pauline Newell?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were they all around the area that night coming off the
36
1 bus from the Coach?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember seeing any of them around the area of
4 Boss Hogg's before you got to the junction?
5 A. I can't remember, no.
6 Q. Do you remember seeing them further up at the church?
7 A. I seen them on past the church.
8 Q. Say that again, sorry.
9 A. I would have seen them on past the church. They were
10 walking to Brownstown. I seen them further on.
11 Q. So they were ahead of you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you pass them at any point?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Perhaps I could have [17327] on the screen, please. The
16 bottom third of the page:
17 "I think at that stage ..."
18 This was a statement made by Tracey Clarke on
19 10th May 1997. Are you aware she made a statement to
20 the police about which there has been some considerable
21 controversy?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You are not aware that Tracey Clarke made a statement to
24 the police that named quite a number of people, some of
25 whom she described as being directly involved in the
37
1 attack on Robert Hamill?
2 A. I am, aye, yes.
3 Q. So you are aware she made a statement to the police?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree that was quite a notorious statement in
6 Portadown at the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That in view of the fact, Mr Woods, that a number of --
9 well, in view of the fact that you and maybe others
10 would have been afraid of what paramilitaries might say
11 if you gave too much information about what happened,
12 would you agree that a statement from someone who
13 actually named people who were involved in the attack
14 was a very significant statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That it would have caused some considerable stir in the
17 Brownstown Estate after it was made?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now this statement says:
20 "I think at that stage the other persons with me
21 were Pauline Newell, Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery,
22 Shelley Liggett and a fellow called Jason."
23 Now, could that have been you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. But they are just up ahead of you. Is that correct?
38
1 A. Yes. Where.
2 Q. Sorry?
3 A. Whereabouts does she think ...
4 Q. This statement is made by her in May 1997. If we have
5 the whole page on, she says just before there:
6 "We walked up as far as the Mandarin House in
7 West Street."
8 That's what she says just before that passage:
9 "We walked up as far as the Mandarin House in
10 West Street."
11 Can you help us as to where Mandarin House is in
12 relation to, say, the Job Centre?
13 A. The Mandarin House would be past the Job Centre further
14 on in towards the Brownstown Estate.
15 Q. We have already heard from the Blacks that they would
16 have been level with the Job Centre when they heard the
17 commotion. Okay? Now, they thought they were with you,
18 even though you don't remember them.
19 A. No.
20 Q. We hear here from Tracey Clarke that they were as far as
21 the Mandarin House, which is a bit further up, and they
22 heard the commotion. Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have told us that they were a bit ahead of you?
25 A. Uh-huh.
39
1 Q. So are you still saying to us that you didn't hear
2 anything?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So what Tracey Clarke says here is:
5 "Around this time we heard shouting coming from
6 Main Street. I can't remember what was said but it was
7 something like, 'Fight, fight'."
8 At the very bottom of the page:
9 "We all ran down to see what was happening."
10 Okay? So there is Tracey Clarke saying, "We all ran
11 back down". So they must have passed you. Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, you remember them in front of you.
15 MR McCOMB: I am sorry to interject. I think that question
16 is based on a somewhat false premise. The witnesses
17 yesterday did not say they ran down and the witness is
18 being asked to accept that they all ran down and to
19 agree or disagree with something which is a false
20 premise.
21 MR McGRORY: Sir, I have not put to this witness that the
22 witnesses yesterday said they ran down. I have only put
23 to this witness that Tracey Clarke said they ran down.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, put in that way, it is a proper
25 question.
40
1 MR McGRORY: Yes. Thank you, sir.
2 I am just putting to you again, Mr Woods, that
3 Tracey Clarke, who was with Kelly Lavery,
4 Shelley Liggett, Tracy McAlpine and Pauline Newell, who
5 were ahead of you -- now you have accepted they were in
6 front of you already. Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tracey Clarke says they ran back down towards the
9 church. I am saying to you, if they were in front of
10 you at the Mandarin House and ran back down towards the
11 church, they must have passed you, but you don't --
12 A. I don't recall.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you see them pass you?
14 MR McGRORY: Did you see them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I am also suggesting to you that they were able to hear
17 the commotion up at the Mandarin House and that you must
18 have heard it.
19 A. I never heard nothing.
20 Q. And that the Woods brothers were able to hear the
21 commotion at the Job Centre -- the Black brothers.
22 Sorry. My apologies. The Black brothers were able to
23 hear the commotion at the Job Centre. So I am
24 suggesting to you that you must have heard it from
25 West Street.
41
1 A. No.
2 Q. I am suggesting to you that you ran back as well --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- and that you saw a lot more than you are letting on,
5 Mr Woods.
6 A. No.
7 Q. You have already told us you didn't hear any commotion.
8 I am suggesting to you you did.
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Is your fear of the paramilitaries the reason why you
11 won't tell us the truth --
12 A. No.
13 Q. -- as to what you heard and saw?
14 A. I never saw anything. I never heard anything.
15 Q. Do you know Allister Hanvey?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Did you know him then?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see him that night?
20 A. On the bus. We had been on the bus to the Coach.
21 Q. You told the police in 2002, I think -- page [70961].
22 It is a QPG5 form. This is a record of a conversation
23 you had with the police. I am sorry I don't have the
24 date. Maybe the Inquiry can help me with it. It is
25 some time a few years after the incident. On that you
42
1 say:
2 "Went to Coach. Came home with Paul Currie,
3 Kelly Lavery, Tracy Newell and Pauline Newell. Walked
4 from town centre to his own home."
5 You denied you were at the party. The next page is
6 [70962]. There is a passage at the beginning about the
7 party, which is irrelevant, because you were not there.
8 Then you are asked:
9 "Do you recall Allister Hanvey at the party?"
10 That is about the fifth or sixth line down. You
11 said:
12 "Saw him on the Coach bus and on the Coach bus on
13 the way home."
14 So that is your memory to this day, that you saw
15 Allister Hanvey at the Coach?
16 A. On the bus.
17 Q. Both at the Coach nightclub and on the coach on the way
18 home?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR McGRORY: Okay. Thank you.
21 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb.
23 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
24 MR McCOMB: It is not really a matter of much confrontation,
25 but, as I understand it, Allister Hanvey was not at the
43
1 Coach or on the bus on the way home. Is it possible
2 your memory might have been in error some years after
3 that when you made that statement?
4 A. Oh!
5 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: You were shown a document there on [70961].
7 We think that was 8th January 2001. Can you help with
8 that date? I can't see a date on it. Can you remember?
9 A. 8th January -- what date?
10 Q. 2001.
11 A. No.
12 Q. The other matter I want to ask you about is this fear of
13 paramilitaries. I don't want to go into great detail
14 about it, but you told us that in general there was
15 a fear of helping the police, and in particular perhaps
16 helping the police about this incident because of what
17 paramilitaries in the area might do.
18 Can you say whether that's because it was a Catholic
19 that was involved in the murder or whether it was just
20 a question of the paramilitaries not liking people in
21 the area helping police at all?
22 A. Just a question of helping the police at all.
23 Further cross-examination by MR McGRORY
24 MR McGRORY: Sir, my learned junior has pointed out
25 something I might have missed. If I could be permitted
44
1 to ask it. It is one simple matter.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
3 MR McGRORY: Page [09185]. This is a statement of
4 Iain Carville. Do you know Iain Carville?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It is just that he says there at the top of the
7 statement, and this is relatively contemporaneous -- the
8 date of it is 19th May 1997 -- he is at the house, at
9 the party at Tracy Newell's house. You told the police
10 in 2001 that you were not at that, but you knew all of
11 these people. Were you aware that there was a bit of
12 a gathering back at Tracy Newell's house after everybody
13 was heading back up from the Coach?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Iain Carville says here:
16 "This must have been after 3.00 am. At the house
17 I recall seeing Pauline, [blank] sister,
18 Shelley Liggett, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey,
19 Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, Marc Hobson, Stephen Bloomer",
20 among others. "Most were sleeping."
21 He puts you at that party. Were you at that party?
22 A. No, definitely not.
23 Q. So is he mistaken?
24 A. He is mistaken, yes.
25 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.
45
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing else arising.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: You are free now to go. Thank you, Mr Woods.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we have two other witnesses for today,
5 William Jones and Carol Ann Woods. There is reason to
6 believe, although Mr Hunter has made efforts to contact
7 them, that he has not managed to succeed in that. They
8 have been served with letters requiring them to attend
9 today. Can I just ask for fifteen minutes to determine
10 what the news is?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, of course. Perhaps you will be able to
12 discover whether the letters were forwarded to these two
13 people.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course.
15 (11.40 am)
16 (A short break)
17 (11.55 am)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Let me report the position, if I may.
20 I think I was a bit too dogmatic when I said today's
21 date has, as it were, been required of Mr Jones and
22 Ms Woods.
23 The position is that they are represented by
24 Richard Monteith & Co, that two dates were offered to
25 them by way of rescheduling because they, for various
46
1 reasons, were due to have attended earlier but didn't
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Offered to the solicitors?
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Offered to the solicitors, yes, and the
4 clients through the solicitors. Those dates were
5 today's date and tomorrow's. I have spoken at length to
6 Mr Hunter. I am completely satisfied he has done
7 everything within his power to get them here.
8 What's not entirely clear, I have to say, is
9 whether, despite his best efforts, they have actually
10 got notice of the requirement to be here today or
11 tomorrow.
12 All I can suggest is that we break for the day and
13 that, of course, with the cooperation of Mr Hunter,
14 I will see what steps can be put in place to get them
15 here whenever is convenient. It may be, as I say, they
16 simply don't know yet that they are required here today
17 or tomorrow.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Was the Inquiry told which of the two
19 dates the witnesses would be attending?
20 MR UNDERWOOD: No. We put the two dates to them, as it
21 were. As I say, the difficulty is it is far from clear
22 that, despite his best efforts, Mr Hunter has managed to
23 get those across to them. There is no criticism of him
24 or, indeed, of the firm. As I say, it may simply be
25 they are on holiday or something. We just don't know.
47
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Then we will adjourn until
2 tomorrow.
3 MR McGRORY: Excuse me, sir. May I make a contribution to
4 this discussion?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
6 MR McGRORY: I am concerned on behalf of the Hamill family
7 about the non-appearance of these witnesses, who were
8 scheduled on a previous occasion. Now, I accept what
9 Mr Underwood says entirely, that the Inquiry is
10 satisfied that Mr Hunter has made his best efforts, but
11 would it be inappropriate to consider a parallel
12 approach: that the Inquiry should also send a notice by
13 recorded delivery to these two witnesses, giving them
14 an appointed date, so that the Inquiry can be absolutely
15 certain that every effort has been made?
16 That may not be a matter which the Panel requires to
17 decide right now, but I simply throw that out as
18 a possible ...
19 SIR JOHN EVANS: Do we have their addresses?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have their addresses?
21 MR UNDERWOOD: There are matters to do with the couple that
22 I don't particularly want to go into in public. Perhaps
23 it could be just left to be dealt with behind the
24 scenes. As I say, I am getting very full cooperation
25 from Mr Hunter and I am sure we will find a way round
48
1 this.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. I think we must leave it at that
3 for the moment.
4 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir.
5 (12.22 pm)
6 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
7
8 --ooOoo--
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1 I N D E X
2
3
MR JOSEPH BLACK (sworn) .......................... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 9
5 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 12
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 17
6
MR JASON TERRENCE WOODS (sworn) .................. 18
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 18
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 29
8 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 31
Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 43
9 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 44
Further cross-examination by MR McGRORY ... 44
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