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Hearing: 23rd April 2009, day 39
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 23rd April 2009
commencing at 5.15 pm
Day 39
1 Thursday, 23rd April 2009
2 (5.15 pm)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (5.30 pm)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, we are going to call Jennifer O'Neill
6 electronically --
7 MR MELIA: Ashley, I am sorry. We are going to need two
8 more minutes. I apologise.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: -- in due course.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: While we are waiting, Mr Underwood, can you
11 tell us, because these are not our own laptops --
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: -- will this be transferred on to our
14 laptops? I see affirmative nods.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: I can confidently say "yes" then.
16 MR MELIA: Can you read the affirmation, please?
17 MS JENNIFER CAROL O'NEILL (affirmed)
18 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Miss O'Neill, can you see me?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
24 I have some questions for you. First of all, thank you
25 very much for coming into this arrangement to give
1
1 evidence for us.
2 Can you tell us your full name, please?
3 A. My name is Jennifer Carol O'Neill.
4 Q. I know you have a bundle of documents. I hope in those
5 documents you have your statement that you kindly signed for
6 the Inquiry in November 2008. Is that there
7 conveniently for you?
8 A. Statement of witness here, yes.
9 Q. It runs to six pages, I think.
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. We have page numbers [81058] to [81063]. Do you have
12 those page numbers?
13 A. Yes, I have those pages as well.
14 Q. Can you confirm that is your witness statement?
15 A. That is my witness statement.
16 Q. Are the contents of it true?
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. Thank you. I have some supplemental questions to ask to
19 elaborate on it, if I may. Can I ask you to have a look
20 at page 4? It is our page [81061].
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You say in paragraph 12:
23 "I cannot remember exactly what time the fight
24 started and it is difficult for me to distinguish now
25 between what I actually saw and heard and the details
2
1 I was told later by other people or heard on the news."
2 Then you go on to say:
3 "However, a man, who I now believe to be
4 Robert Hamill, was standing in the middle of the
5 High Street and he shouted something along the lines of
6 'I'm a Fenian. This is my town'."
7 Now, we are very concerned to know what Mr Hamill
8 was up to on that night and what happened to him, of
9 course. Can I ask you to give us the best, clearest
10 evidence you can about what you saw as opposed to what
11 you may have heard afterwards?
12 A. Yes. The screen has gone blank on my side.
13 Q. I am so sorry. We are having somebody look at that now.
14 A. Okay. So you want me to go -- okay. You are --
15 Q. Am I back?
16 A. There is something on the screen now. There is like
17 a Word document.
18 Q. Okay. That's --
19 A. Sorry. It is the paragraph 12. It is paragraph 12 on
20 screen.
21 Q. Is that all that's on your screen now?
22 A. Yes, that's all that's on the screen.
23 Q. I think perhaps we don't need the document on the
24 screen. Perhaps we should keep the video. Is that all
25 right? Can you see us again now?
3
1 A. Yes, I can see you now.
2 Q. Right. Sorry. It is probably better to look at the
3 document, frankly.
4 Can we go back to the hard copy of the document you
5 have there, your paragraph 12?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It is the second sentence that I am interested in:
8 "However, a man, who I now believe to be
9 Robert Hamill, was standing in the middle of the
10 High Street and he shouted something along the lines of
11 'I'm a Fenian. This is my town'."
12 Doing the best you can now, can you tell us whether
13 that's something you saw and heard at the time or
14 whether that's something you learned about afterwards?
15 A. After looking at my original statement on this,
16 I remember -- I do remember a man, who I believe was
17 Robert Hamill, standing in the middle of the -- between
18 the two streets and he was -- he stood up and he shouted
19 something, and I cannot remember now exactly what that
20 was, but it was along the lines of, "This is my town".
21 There was definitely the word -- the word "Fenian" was
22 there, you know, but I cannot say -- I cannot say and
23 I cannot remember now whether it was Robert Hamill that
24 said that or whether it was something that was said by
25 other people that were there at the time.
4
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I just remember the word and it was something along
3 those lines.
4 Q. Let's explore that a little, if we may.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. You didn't know Robert Hamill, did you?
7 A. No, I didn't know him.
8 Q. What makes you think that the person whom you saw doing
9 that might have been Robert Hamill?
10 A. Because I didn't recognise him for one, because he
11 wasn't on the bus. He didn't come off the bus that we
12 were on. So I didn't recognise him, and I --
13 (Video conference terminated)
14 Q. Okay. Can we get back to the ...
15 (Video conference reconnected)
16 A. Hi.
17 Q. Hello. You are back with us. I am very sorry about
18 that. You were just telling us that you thought this
19 might have been Robert Hamill, because it is somebody
20 you didn't recognise and somebody whom you thought
21 wasn't on the bus with you.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Presumably you assumed he was a Catholic from what he
24 was saying?
25 A. Yes.
5
1 Q. You put two and two together subsequently, did you, to
2 conclude that that person might at least have been
3 Mr Hamill?
4 A. Yes, I believe so.
5 Q. Could you tell us how it is that you concluded that it
6 might in particular have been Mr Hamill? For example,
7 did you see his photograph in the press reports or did
8 you read about the incident afterwards?
9 A. I gathered it from the fact that that was the point in
10 which I guess the fighting may have started. They
11 congregated around him, like towards him, and that led
12 me to believe that that was Robert Hamill.
13 Q. Right. Again, that's a point I would like to spend
14 a little time on, if I may.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Namely, was that the beginning of the fight as far as
17 you were concerned?
18 A. As far as I was concerned, yes, I would say so, yes.
19 Q. Did you see anybody else whom you assumed at the time to
20 be Catholic involved in that fighting?
21 A. No. No, I can't remember anyone else.
22 Q. Okay. If we look back at your witness statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your paragraph 13 you say:
25 "I believe that I saw someone lying on the ground.
6
1 However, it has been pointed out to me that in my
2 statement to the police I said that I did not see anyone
3 on the ground. Again, it may be that I am now blurring
4 what I actually saw and what I later heard about the
5 night from other people."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Again, doing the best you can now, after 12 years --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- can you help us with whether it is your present
10 recollection that you saw somebody lying on the ground?
11 A. My present recollection, I can't. There was -- it was
12 talked about for so long, obviously, immediately after
13 it happened, and I've tried to kind of picture it in my
14 head and I can't remember a guy on the ground --
15 Q. Right.
16 A. -- now.
17 Q. You go on in that paragraph to say:
18 "When I gave my statement in 1997, I would have told
19 the police the full facts; I would have told them
20 everything that I saw."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, we can look at your statement, of course, if we
23 need to.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. I think you have seen it today anyway. In that, you
7
1 don't -- in the statement that is -- make any mention of
2 the person saying something like "I'm a Fenian. This is
3 my town."
4 A. I think I was referring to that. On the second part of
5 my statement, the second page, 64.
6 Q. That's our page [09154]. I am so sorry. I am talking
7 over you.
8 A. [09154], the sentence starting six lines down, when
9 I mention about, you know, shouting, "Fenian bastards",
10 and that, that I believe is what I was referring to when
11 I heard those words.
12 Q. Right. Does it follow from that that if the police who
13 took the statement had asked you in more detail in the
14 way I am asking you, that you would have teased it out
15 in more detail?
16 A. Yes, yes. I believe so.
17 Q. Thank you. There is another matter I would like to ask
18 you about.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. We find that on page 5 of your Inquiry witness
21 statement. That's our page [81062].
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. On the second line, at the end of the second line, you
24 say:
25 "I do not remember seeing any police officers
8
1 outside or around the Land Rover when the fight first
2 kicked off. The police did not intervene right away.
3 I cannot remember at exactly what point I saw police
4 officers and when they intervened, but they were there
5 at the end."
6 The first thing I want to ask you about that is
7 whether you saw Dean Forbes or Stacey Bridgett near the
8 Land Rover.
9 A. I cannot remember.
10 Q. Okay. Again, doing the best you can, are you conscious
11 of any police officers having got out of the Land Rover
12 at any point that night?
13 A. I do remember they were there at the end. That's what
14 I remember now. In my statement I think I said the same
15 thing --
16 Q. Uh-huh.
17 A. -- that I remember them -- I remember them being present
18 at the end, because we had observed most of the fight
19 from the top of the town and --
20 Q. So -- I am so sorry.
21 A. That's -- yes. I just remembered the police officers
22 being there at the end. I don't remember now them ever
23 getting out of the Land Rover before then. They may
24 have, but I don't remember.
25 Q. You saw at least one other police car, I think, because
9
1 you make mention of two-tone sirens?
2 A. In my original statement I do -- yes, I have said that
3 in my original statement.
4 Q. Do you remember that now?
5 A. I don't remember that now.
6 Q. If police officers had got out of the Land Rover, were
7 you in a position to have seen them or was your view
8 obscured by what was going on?
9 A. It would have been partially obscured, yes. I mean, it
10 would have been partially obscured. Obviously, the
11 Land Rover I believe now was on the other side of where
12 the fight was, behind them, and so the crowd of people
13 would have been between where I was and where the
14 Land Rover would have been, I believe.
15 Q. Were you concentrating on the Land Rover at all or were
16 you watching the fight?
17 A. No, I wasn't -- I remember seeing it, but I wasn't
18 concentrating on that, no.
19 Q. Finally, I know you told us that you saw the police
20 there at the end --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and they were, as it were, marshalling people up the
23 street.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Did you see them doing anything else; for example,
10
1 attempting to break up a fight or protecting anyone?
2 A. I don't remember them seeing them doing that. I don't
3 remember them trying to break up the fight.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Those are the only questions
5 I have for you.
6 A. Okay.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: It may well be that other people have some
8 more. Thank you very much.
9 A. Thank you.
10 Questions from MR O'HARE
11 MR O'HARE: There are a few matters. You don't remember the
12 police trying to break up the fight, Ms O'Neill?
13 A. Not at this moment. Not now after this long I don't.
14 Q. When you were watching the fight, am I correct that your
15 evidence is that they may have got out of the Land Rover
16 sooner than you first saw them?
17 A. They may have, but I don't remember.
18 Q. Now, I believe you were aged 16 at the time -- is that
19 correct -- in 1997?
20 A. Yes, I believe I was 16, yes.
21 Q. You had been to the Coach Inn that night?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You had been drinking alcohol?
24 A. I had drunk a little bit, yes.
25 Q. Do you recall what you drank?
11
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. No, you don't. You made your witness statement to the
3 police on 13th May.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember where you made that statement?
6 A. It was in my parents' home.
7 Q. Yes. Who all was present at the time you made the
8 statement?
9 A. Myself, the policeman who was interviewing me.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I believe one of my parents were there.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. That's all I can remember.
14 Q. Yes. The policeman, did he tell you that he wanted to
15 take a statement from you for you to describe what you
16 saw and heard on the night? Did he explain to you what
17 the purpose of taking a statement was or why he wanted
18 that statement?
19 A. I mean, I can't remember that now, but I believe so.
20 I remember it being -- you know, he just kind of took me
21 through the night.
22 Q. He took you through the night?
23 A. He -- I basically took him through what happened during
24 the night, I believe.
25 Q. Yes.
12
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Do you remember, did you write out the statement or did
3 he write out the statement?
4 A. I remember he wrote the statement.
5 Q. Was he asking you questions as he was writing them out?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. For example, he would have asked you, "Had you been in
8 the Coach Inn that night?"
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Perhaps if you could just have a look at your statement,
11 page [09153].
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That's your statement of 13th May 1997?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Do you see the first line:
16 "I went to the Coach Inn, Banbridge, on Saturday
17 night, 26th April 1997."
18 Can we take it that the police officer who was
19 taking that statement from you asked you, "Had you been
20 to the Coach Inn that night?"
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This wasn't a case of you simply giving him a narrative,
23 as it were, and he is just writing down what you were
24 saying?
25 A. You mean, would he have asked me -- are you asking me to
13
1 remember whether specifically he asked me where I had
2 been on that night --
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. -- or had I been to the Coach Inn?
5 Q. Would he have said either?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Well, he was asking you questions. Isn't that right?
8 A. He asked me a question, yes, for me,
9 you know, to start that, but I can't remember
10 specifically if it was the question, "Were you at the
11 Coach Inn?", or, "Where were you on that night?"
12 Q. The next line, the second line:
13 "I went along with Victoria Clayton from Portadown."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall, was he asking you, "Whom did you go to
16 the Coach Inn with?"
17 A. I don't recall him asking me that.
18 Q. Do you recall any of the questions he asked you?
19 A. I don't. I don't remember any of the questions he asked
20 me.
21 Q. Do you recall how long it took for him to write the
22 statement out for you?
23 A. I remember it wasn't very long. I would say now less
24 than -- between a half hour and an hour.
25 Q. Between a half hour and an hour?
14
1 A. Yes. Maybe 45 minutes.
2 Q. You have read over this statement to the police, haven't
3 you?
4 A. Yes, I have, yes.
5 Q. You see in that statement -- I don't intend to take the
6 witness through every line of it -- you describe at what
7 time you got the bus back to Portadown, who you were
8 with on the bus, Victoria Clayton, whereabouts you were
9 sitting on the bus, matters of that nature.
10 Do you recall at all whether this information, where
11 you were sitting on the bus, who you were on the bus
12 with, etc, whether that arose as a result of the police
13 officer asking you specific questions, like asking you
14 where --
15 A. Yes. I believe he would have asked me specifically
16 those questions in order for me to give those answers,
17 yes.
18 Q. Yes, precisely, because --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: The sort of question, "Where did you sit on
20 the bus?" and that kind of thing?
21 A. Exactly. Otherwise there would be no reason for me to
22 say that.
23 MR O'HARE: Precisely, and, for example, who you were with
24 on the bus?
25 A. Exactly.
15
1 Q. And who you met after you got off the bus?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You told him you got off the bus with Victoria and
4 Kyle Magee joined you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You knew Kyle Magee at the time. Isn't that correct?
7 A. In my statement, yes. I do not remember Kyle Magee now
8 and I know last year when I was interviewed I can't
9 recall him. I'd probably recognise him if I saw him
10 again maybe, but I cannot remember. I remember
11 Victoria, but not Kyle.
12 Q. Can we take it that when you made this statement to the
13 police --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- in 1997, when you told the police officer on 13th May
16 that you got off the bus with Victoria and Kyle Magee
17 joined you, that that was a truthful answer?
18 A. Yes, yes, absolutely.
19 Q. Then you go on to describe going to Boss Hogg's and
20 getting something to eat?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it your evidence, Ms O'Neill, that as you walked up
23 from Boss Hogg's up towards St Mark's, you didn't see any
24 fighting, scuffling or disorderly behaviour in the
25 middle of the town as you were making your way up to the
16
1 church?
2 A. I only remember now specifically the only fighting that
3 I did see was when we were at the top of the town.
4 That's all I remember now. When we were standing
5 outside St Mark's.
6 Q. You are aware that Kyle Magee made a statement to the
7 police in which he said that as the three of you were
8 walking up towards St Mark's Church --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- he observed this fight going on in the middle of the
11 road --
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. -- as you were making your way up to St Mark's?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You didn't see that fight as you were making your way up
16 to St Mark's?
17 A. Yes. No, I did see the fight. What I am saying is what
18 I remember now is I only remember now watching the fight
19 from St Mark's.
20 Q. Well, you only remember now watching it from St Mark's?
21 A. I only remember, like, at this point in time -- I mean,
22 I've -- let me see. Can I refer to my statement to see
23 what I said originally?
24 Q. Yes, surely. Take your time, please.
25 A. When I said in my original statement that the three of
17
1 us walked towards St Mark's Church at the top of the
2 town and heard the shouting coming from the direction of
3 the town centre, that was where I saw the fighting break
4 out.
5 Q. Sorry. Where --
6 A. Towards the top --
7 Q. Can you say roughly whereabouts? Were you at St Mark's
8 when you saw the fighting break out or were you further
9 down towards Boss Hogg's direction?
10 A. It was towards the top of the town. I only remember at
11 this point in time standing for a short period of time
12 outside St Mark's to watch it.
13 Q. You are also aware that Kyle Magee said that he started
14 to walk towards the fight and, "Victoria and Jennifer
15 walked with me".
16 Do you remember that being put to you when you were
17 being interviewed by the Inquiry team?
18 A. I remember that being put to me. I don't remember it at
19 all.
20 Q. You don't remember it at all?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Do you recall meeting Noelle Moore later on when you
23 walked on home?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You don't?
18
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. You have your original police statement there. It is at
3 page [09154].
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you see about halfway down --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- there is a sentence:
8 "The crowd that was fighting was a good distance
9 down the street from me. There was a fair crowd
10 standing around beside us and I spoke to Noelle Moore.
11 I just met her as I started to walk off. Noelle lives
12 in Portadown, I think", and then there is an address
13 that has been blacked out.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Do you recall, did the police officer ask you, "Where
16 does Noelle Moore live?"
17 A. I don't remember that specific question.
18 Q. You don't remember that specific question?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You were with Victoria Clayton the whole night. Isn't
21 that correct?
22 A. I would say I was with her for most of the night.
23 Q. Perhaps if you could look at paragraph 16 of your
24 Inquiry statement. It is page 5.
25 A. Yes. I only have -- page 5?
19
1 Q. It is page 5. It is the bottom paragraph, paragraph 16.
2 A. Okay. All right.
3 Q. It says there:
4 "I am told that Victoria said that she wiped blood
5 from a man's face or handed him a handkerchief and that
6 someone else observed that this man to be Stacey Bridgett.
7 I do not remember seeing this and I was with Victoria
8 the entire time that night."
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Do you accept from me that when you made your statement
11 to the police you never mentioned anything about
12 Stacey Bridgett and blood on his nose or
13 Victoria Clayton wiping it off, wiping the blood off his
14 nose or giving him a handkerchief?
15 A. Yes, I never said anything about that in my original
16 statement, because -- I don't remember seeing that.
17 Q. Well, you made your original police statement on
18 13th May 1997 --
19 A. Right.
20 Q. -- some 16 days after this incident. Would you not have
21 remembered --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- your friend Victoria either wiping the blood off
24 someone's face or handing him a handkerchief to do so
25 when you were being asked by the police as to what you
20
1 saw on the night in question?
2 A. I would have remembered -- if I had seen that, I would
3 have remembered it, yes.
4 Q. Would you have told the police about it?
5 A. If they had asked me.
6 Q. If they had asked you?
7 A. Well, if -- yes, but what I am saying is I don't
8 remember seeing it, so ...
9 Q. How could you have missed it if --
10 A. If I did -- are you saying if I did see it, if I did see
11 it, would I have told the police?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes, I would have, if I had seen it, yes.
14 Q. In your Inquiry statement you have told the Inquiry that
15 you were with Victoria Clayton the whole night. Did you
16 understand that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. She has said that she wiped the blood off Bridgett's
19 face or else gave him a handkerchief.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. You didn't see that?
22 A. I didn't see that.
23 Q. Or you didn't --
24 A. When you say when I was with Victoria the whole night --
25 Q. Those are your words.
21
1 A. I went with her -- I went with her. I was on the bus
2 with her. We walked up together. There was a lot of
3 people. We weren't side by side the whole entire night.
4 When I say I was with her the entire night, I went
5 out with her that night and that's who I was with.
6 I didn't see every move that she made that entire night.
7 Q. No. You do accept that you said in your Inquiry
8 statement:
9 "I do not remember seeing this and I was with
10 Victoria the entire time that night."
11 The entire time that night.
12 The police officer who took this statement from
13 you -- you say it took about an hour
14 THE CHAIRMAN: No. She said --
15 A. I said it took between half an hour and an hour.
16 MR O'HARE: Yes, between half an hour and an hour.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall, did he ask you who else you saw in the
19 town that night?
20 A. I don't recall now, no.
21 MR O'HARE: Yes. Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
23 Questions from MR McGRORY
24 MR McGRORY: Ms O'Neill, can you see me?
25 A. Yes, I can.
22
1 Q. My name is McGrory and I represent the family of
2 Robert Hamill. I want to ask you some questions about
3 some of the answers you gave to Mr Underwood, Counsel for the
4 Inquiry, a few minutes ago.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. He asked you immediately about the comment in your
7 statement about your memory of what you say
8 Robert Hamill did. Can you hear me?
9 A. Yes. I am listening.
10 Q. Yes. He was asking you to recount that. I am going to
11 just repeat your answer to you, because I want to ask
12 you some further questions about it.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. I take it you don't have the facility to read your
15 answer over there, do you?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. I am going to read it back to you.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. He asked you whether or not it was something you saw or
20 whether or not it was something you had learned about
21 afterwards. Do you remember the question?
22 A. He had asked me to -- he had first referred to
23 a paragraph -- to something in my statement. I remember
24 vaguely.
25 Q. I will just read it out to you. I have the benefit of
23
1 having the transcript. You don't.
2 A. Yes, please.
3 Q. So I understand your difficulty. What he said was:
4 "Question: Doing the best you can now, can you tell
5 us whether that's something you saw and heard at the
6 time or whether that's something you learned about
7 afterwards?"
8 That's what he said to you. Okay?
9 A. Yes. Okay.
10 Q. Here was your answer:
11 "Answer: After looking at my original statement on
12 this, I remember -- I do remember a man, who I believe
13 was Robert Hamill, standing in the middle of the --
14 between the two streets, and he was -- he stood up and
15 he shouted something, and I cannot remember now exactly what
16 that was, but it was along the lines of, 'This is my
17 town'. There was definitely the word -- the word
18 'Fenian' was there, you know, but I cannot say -- I cannot
19 say and I cannot remember now whether it was Robert Hamill that said
20 that or whether that was something that was said by
21 other people that were there at the time."
22 Can you digest all of that? That was your answer.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So what you are saying here is that you cannot remember
25 just who used the word "Fenian".
24
1 A. I cannot remember now.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I cannot remember now, yes.
4 Q. You cannot remember who used the word, "Fenian", but you
5 think it was this person whom you believe -- and I will
6 come to this in a moment -- was Robert Hamill, who said something about
7 "This is my town". You think so?
8 A. I do not remember that now, but from looking at my
9 statement, obviously, you know, that was fresh in my
10 head and that would have been correct, but that wasn't
11 in my original statement.
12 Q. No. I mean, your original statement doesn't mention --
13 your original statement of May 13th doesn't mention
14 Robert Hamill at all. You have accepted that. Isn't
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In fact, it doesn't mention anybody shouting, "This is
18 my town", at all.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree that the events were freshest in your mind
21 when you made that statement on 13th May 1997?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. So what I understood you to be saying in answer to
24 Mr Underwood was that you now remembered that somebody
25 said, "Fenian", but you couldn't remember who, but are
25
1 you now telling us you don't remember that either?
2 A. I remember now someone standing up in the centre of the
3 town, who I believed -- who I believe to be
4 Robert Hamill, and that something -- he shouted
5 something. I do not remember specifically now what it
6 was, but I do remember the word, "Fenian", being
7 shouted.
8 Q. You see, you said to me a moment ago -- and I am reading
9 what you said from a transcript here, when I asked you
10 that question.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You said:
13 "Answer: I do not remember that now."
14 That's what you said to me a few moments ago. Isn't
15 that the truth of it, though? You don't have a memory?
16 A. It's very confusing, because from when I first gave the
17 original statement, there was so much hype over it, and
18 it's very difficult to remember, you know, what actually
19 happened and, you know, through what people have said
20 and through the media and everything, and it's --
21 I mean, all I can do is refer back to my original
22 statement, because that is true and correct, you know,
23 at the time.
24 Q. Yes, but your original statement doesn't mention this
25 man, never mind the name, shouting something about, "My
26
1 town" at all?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you have said to us --
4 A. A year ago, whenever I was given -- when I was
5 interviewed by the Inquiry team, it was mentioned.
6 Q. Yes, it was mentioned by you a year ago.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do I understand what you are saying to us now is really
9 that a year ago you were really saying something, but
10 that you are not sure whether what you were saying was
11 something you would have been told or that you had
12 actually seen?
13 A. When I went through this a year ago, I answered the
14 questions that I was given, and they were from what
15 I would have remembered and seen. If it wasn't on my
16 original statement, it was probably because I wasn't
17 asked.
18 Q. Would you not accept that if it wasn't in your original
19 statement, it was because it didn't happen?
20 A. I answered the questions that the police asked me.
21 Q. Yes. The police asked you --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Let her finish her answer.
23 MR McGRORY: Sorry. My apologies.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Go on, will you, please?
25 A. No. I mean, I answered the questions that the police
27
1 asked me on the day of May 13th.
2 MR McGRORY: Did the police not ask you to tell them what
3 you had seen?
4 A. By asking me questions, by asking me specific questions.
5 Q. Yes, but you were asked to tell them what you had
6 observed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Isn't that right? In fact, in your statement on
9 page [09154], the second page of it, you say:
10 "I observed people throwing punches at each other
11 and others running about."
12 It's page 2 of your statement, the top half of the
13 page.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. "I observed people throwing punches at each other and others
16 running about."
17 A. Okay. Yes.
18 Q. Obviously that was in response to a question, "What did
19 you observe?" Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Then you were asked what you had heard. No? Because
22 what -- sorry.
23 A. I can't say that I remember now that that was the
24 question that I was asked, you know, was this what
25 I heard, was this what I observed.
28
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you asked any question along these
2 lines, "Can you remember if you heard anything or anyone
3 say anything?"
4 A. Yes.
5 MR McGRORY: Yes, and you answered:
6 "I heard people shouting 'Fenian bastards' and there
7 was one fellow shouting 'Orange bastards'."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So that was your answer to the question?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. But you don't say anything in respect of a man whom you
12 believed to be Robert Hamill, or any other man, shouting
13 about, "My town"?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you made that point some time ago,
16 Mr McGrory.
17 MR McGRORY: What I am going to suggest to you, Ms O'Neill,
18 is that you are not being frank with us when you say the
19 reason why you didn't say anything about that was
20 because you weren't asked. I am suggesting to you that
21 you were asked to say what you saw.
22 Do you agree?
23 A. Yes, I would have been asked to say what I saw. That is
24 correct.
25 Q. And what you had heard?
29
1 A. And what I had heard.
2 Q. You agree you were asked that?
3 A. I believe so, yes.
4 Q. Now, I want to just talk to you about the reason you
5 have given the Inquiry for your belief that the man you
6 now say you think was Robert Hamill was Robert Hamill.
7 Do you follow that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The reason you gave was that because you didn't
10 recognise him. Do you remember giving that answer?
11 A. I do, yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: And he didn't get off the bus?
13 MR McGRORY: And he didn't get off the bus.
14 A. And he didn't get off the bus, yes.
15 Q. Now, do I understand that to mean, Ms O'Neill, that
16 everyone that you saw -- everyone else that you saw you
17 recognised or was on the bus?
18 A. I would have remembered most people on the bus, but not
19 everybody.
20 Q. But all of those people that you were watching involved
21 in this fighting and shouting, if the only one that you
22 are saying must have been Robert Hamill was the man
23 standing shouting what you say he shouted --
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. -- if he was the only one you didn't recognise -- do you
30
1 understand me?
2 A. Yes, I do understand.
3 Q. -- that means you recognised everybody else you were
4 watching?
5 A. No. It means that --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You see, you put your question and she simply
7 said she understood your question, but she has not
8 answered it and you have gone on to something else. If
9 you just look at the transcript, you will see the point.
10 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir, I see that.
11 Was Mr Hamill the only one you didn't recognise?
12 A. I can't even remember who was on the bus now, and
13 I couldn't even recognise half the people I said I was
14 with, but I believe that I -- the bus was normally
15 pretty full and I believe that I wouldn't have
16 recognised everybody on the bus.
17 Q. Do you agree with me then that to identify this man you
18 say you saw as Robert Hamill, because he is the only one
19 you didn't recognise, is not a basis for saying it was
20 Robert Hamill?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR McGRORY: I will take the matter no further. Thank you.
23 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
25 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no questions. Thank you.
31
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms O'Neill.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much for attending in this
3 way.
4 A. Thank you.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I understand that the witness team whom you
6 have been speaking to before would like to talk to you
7 when the room has been cleared. So if you would stay
8 there, I would be grateful. Thank you.
9 A. Thank you.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: That completes the evidence for today, sir.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 (6.10 pm)
13 (The hearing adjourned)
14
15 --ooOoo--
16 I N D E X
17
18
MS JENNIFER CAROL O'NEILL (affirmed) ............. 1
19 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Questions from MR O'HARE .................. 11
20 Questions from MR McGRORY ................. 22
21
22
23
24
25
32
Associated Evidence
| Reference | Title | Description |
|---|---|---|
| Statement Jennifer O'Neill (09153) | ||
| Inquiry Statement Jennifer O'Neill (81058) |
