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Hearing: 23rd January 2009, day 8
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Friday, 23rd January 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 8
1 Friday, 23rd January 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, sir. Before I call D, who is the
5 witness for today, can I just refer to the regrettable
6 showing of the post mortem photograph yesterday on the
7 screen?
8 I emphasise this was no-one's fault. Mr Adair could
9 not have made it clearer that he didn't want it up on the
10 screen. The technical staff, on the other hand, are
11 trained to anticipate our every wish. When they hear
12 a number, they jump to it and put things up on the
13 screen. It is highly unfortunate. As I say, it is
14 no-one's fault at all.
15 We have taken steps. Those photographs have now
16 been taken off the system. If anybody wants
17 a photograph up, then, of course, on notice, we will
18 have it restored. It cannot happen again.
19 SIR JOHN EVANS: Where was it seen, apart from in this room?
20 MR UNDERWOOD: It was seen in the witness room. I very much
21 regret the family saw it without any notice.
22 I will now call D.
23 WITNESS D (sworn)
24 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
1
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. My name is Underwood. I will be asking questions to
3 start with. I will probably be asking all of the
4 questions, but there may be some others at the end of my
5 session. All right?
6 I know you have made a statement for us. Can I get
7 you to identify it? That starts on the screen at
8 [81350]. I will just have this flicked through quite
9 quickly so you can see if it is your statement. Is that
10 yours?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you very much. I appreciate, of course, from the
15 statement that you were attacked and you were
16 unconscious for a while, and obviously that's going to
17 affect your ability to tell us what happened, but I want
18 to do the best I possibly can to get out of you what you
19 saw and what happened to you on the night.
20 If you can't remember something, or I am pushing you
21 too hard, just say so. All right?
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Obviously we are concerned with the night of
24 26th/27th April 1997. Tell us, did you go to
25 St Patrick's Hall that night?
2
1 A. I did, yes.
2 Q. Who were you with when you went there?
3 A. My wife.
4 Q. We are not using names.
5 A. No.
6 Q. If you just --
7 A. My wife, my sister-in-law and a couple of other friends.
8 Q. Okay. Did you go with Robert Hamill?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you see him there?
11 A. I did, yes.
12 Q. Did you see Colin Prunty there?
13 A. I did, yes.
14 Q. Maureen McCoy?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. By the time you came to leave, had you had much to
17 drink?
18 A. I had some drink. I'm not sure how much I had to drink.
19 Q. Can you remember what sort of state you were in?
20 A. A happy state.
21 Q. Okay. One of the things we are very interested in is
22 what time people left the hall. Can you help us with
23 that?
24 A. Probably after 1.00.
25 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened when you left the hall
3
1 itself. Did you have to go through a lobby to get out,
2 a hallway or something?
3 A. There was a hallway in the hall. You would have went
4 there maybe looking for a taxi. Then you had to go out
5 through two doors and there was a gate.
6 Q. Right. As you were going through the hallway, did you
7 intend to get a taxi?
8 A. We did, yes.
9 Q. What was it like there? Was it busy?
10 A. It was a busy night. There were crowds outside waiting
11 for taxis and there were very few taxis about.
12 Q. Right. Did you actually see any taxis?
13 A. I can't remember if I did.
14 Q. So the scene was, there were people in the hallway
15 trying to get hold of taxis and people outside actually
16 waiting, do you think?
17 A. Yes, I think.
18 Q. Did you see anybody walking up and down the street?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you try to get a taxi?
21 A. I did, yes.
22 Q. With any luck?
23 A. No luck.
24 Q. What happened then?
25 A. We decided we would walk, walk home on foot.
4
1 Q. Did that present any problem? Were you worried about it
2 at all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Had you done that walk before on a Saturday night?
5 A. If I had been at St Patrick's Hall and there was no
6 taxis, I probably would have walked home.
7 Q. We have heard that the crossroads was a potentially
8 dangerous place to be. Did you know that?
9 A. It was a place where fighting would have took place.
10 Q. We have also heard that Jamesons was a Protestant bar
11 and that Catholics would walk past that very carefully.
12 Did you know that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you tell us you began to walk home. Who was in the
15 group that walked with you?
16 A. My wife, my sister-in-law and Robert.
17 Q. Okay. Did Colin Prunty or Maureen McCoy come out?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. If we look at the standard model, that's a night model
20 of the scene, and we pan it down to look down
21 Thomas Street, you can see that this is made from
22 a collection of photographs that were taken at about the
23 time and gives us a view from pretty much outside
24 Eastwoods looking down or up Thomas Street towards the
25 British Legion end. It doesn't go as far, of course, as
5
1 St Patrick's Hall, because there is a curve in the road,
2 if you recall.
3 What I want to do is just get you to have a look at
4 this. Tell us whether, by the time you got to the
5 building that we can see at the end here -- can you
6 remember which side of the street you were on or whether
7 you were in the middle or what?
8 A. No, I can't remember.
9 Q. Okay. Do you recall anything happening?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that mean you can't remember which side
11 of the street you were or you can't remember being at
12 that place?
13 A. I can't remember which side of the street I was on.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Do you recall anything happening when you
16 were around that end of the view we have here?
17 A. I don't understand that question.
18 Q. All right. Let me be more particular about it.
19 We have heard some evidence that you, your wife, her
20 sister and Robert stopped outside the British Legion and
21 were looking up the street. Do you remember that?
22 A. That we were at the Legion looking up the street?
23 Q. Yes, outside the Legion looking up the street.
24 A. If we were at the Legion, we would probably have been
25 looking down the street.
6
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you go down to the junction, don't
2 you?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I am going to have to be here
5 an awful lot longer before I remember that. Looking
6 towards the junction. Were you?
7 A. Sorry?
8 Q. Do you recall doing that, standing there looking towards
9 the junction?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that just you or more, the group of four?
13 A. We would have been making our way down that street. We
14 would have been looking down towards the bottom of
15 Thomas Street.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: What Maureen McCoy told us was that the four
18 of you were standing there looking towards the junction
19 and that she and Colin Prunty caught up with you.
20 Do you recall that?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Could that have happened?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. She tells us that there was a conversation between your
25 sister-in-law and her where your sister-in-law said,
7
1 "Don't go down there. There are some Protestants up the
2 end", or perhaps she said, "Don't go up there". Anyway,
3 "Don't go to the junction".
4 Do you remember that?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. Moving along, as you came towards the junction, do you
7 recall which side of the street you were on?
8 A. No.
9 Q. If we pan round to the left in this view -- stop there,
10 please -- there is a Land Rover there and some people
11 say they saw it as they were coming down the street or
12 up the street. Did you see the Land Rover?
13 A. I don't recall seeing a police Land Rover.
14 Q. I just want to check how your memory has lasted over the
15 12 years. Do you remember giving an interview for
16 Ulster Television?
17 A. No. Not at the minute I don't.
18 Q. If we can have a look at page [74384], at the bottom
19 there, the last two lines, this is you in interview. If
20 needs be, we can find the programme itself:
21 "We're walking down Thomas Street and we'd came to
22 the top of it and seen a couple of people sort of
23 knocking about around the bottom of Thomas Street but we
24 didn't think nothing of it ..."
25 Going over the page [74385]:
8
1 "... we walked down and then we noticed the police jeep
2 sitting on the top of Woodhouse Street. So we said to
3 ourselves, 'Well, it must be safe enough because the
4 police are sitting there', so we decided we'd walk
5 across the road."
6 Does that ring any bells with you?
7 A. No.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this an actual transcript of the
9 broadcast?
10 MR UNDERWOOD: I have checked it against it. I am perfectly
11 happy that anybody else, if they want to, can see the
12 programme. We don't have the programme on the virtual
13 reality suite, but I can make it available.
14 Going back to the model then, if we can, tell us
15 what happened when you got to the junction.
16 A. I don't remember anything. I was knocked unconscious.
17 That's all I remember.
18 Q. Hit on the head presumably with something?
19 A. I think so, yes.
20 Q. Any idea what?
21 A. No idea.
22 Q. You went to the ground presumably?
23 A. Yes, I think so.
24 Q. Do you know where?
25 A. No.
9
1 Q. We know you went in an ambulance. Did you walk to it or
2 were you carried? Do you recall?
3 A. I couldn't remember.
4 Q. Can you tell us what you were wearing on the night?
5 A. A pair of jeans and a striped shirt or tee-shirt. I'm
6 not sure.
7 Q. Were you wearing a jacket?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you own a black leather jacket?
10 A. Not that I can remember.
11 Q. Can you help us with what the others were wearing;
12 Robert, for example?
13 A. I think Robert had a black leather jacket on him.
14 Q. Do you remember what your wife was wearing?
15 A. No, I don't, no.
16 Q. Or her sister?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What about Colin Prunty?
19 A. No, I don't know what he was wearing.
20 Q. All right. Now, as you walked down the street, were you
21 being noisy, your group?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Or aggressive to anybody?
24 A. No.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you speaking there just of yourself or of
10
1 all four of you?
2 A. All four of us. None of us were noisy. We were just
3 looking to get home.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you tell us whether the two men were
5 walking together and two women together or were you all
6 mixed up?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. A number of people have given statements dealing with
9 what they say happened to start the violence here. What
10 I want to do is get you to look at some of those so you
11 can comment on them and see if you can help us.
12 If we start with page [09111], this is a statement
13 of a Mr Jones that he made to the police. He lived
14 above Jamesons. What he tells us here is, second
15 sentence:
16 "On Sunday morning the 27th of April 1997 I was at home along
17 with my girlfriend, Carol Ann Woods. At approximately
18 2.00 am I heard loud voices coming from the direction
19 of the British Legion area of Thomas Street."
20 So that couldn't have been your group. Is that
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "I looked out of my window which overlooks the bottom of
24 Thomas Street on to Market Street, I saw three or four
25 men running down Thomas Street towards Market Street.
11
1 They were in the middle of the road."
2 Is it possible that any of your group ran down the
3 street?
4 A. No.
5 Q. "Also in this group of men there were three women. The
6 men I have mentioned I can describe as follows."
7 Then he describes three people. I want you to
8 comment on these, if you would:
9 "(1) Approximately 5'10", medium build, dark
10 short hair, he was wearing a black leather jacket
11 which was waist-length and black trousers I'm not
12 sure if they were of jean material."
13 Could that have described Mr Hamill on the night?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What is the difference between that description and
16 an accurate description of Robert Hamill?
17 A. He had light-coloured hair.
18 Q. "(2) Approx 5'8", light build, dirty fair
19 hair short, he was wearing a grey jumper which had
20 a pattern all over it and he was wearing light coloured
21 blue jeans."
22 Never mind the clothing for a moment. The height,
23 build and hair, would that describe you or not?
24 A. No, I have dark hair.
25 Q. Was it dark then?
12
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then he gives the ages of the two people he has
3 described. Then he goes on to number (3) who he says
4 was:
5 "... approx 5'10", stocky/well built,
6 blond/fair hair shaved into the side and back and
7 brushed back on top."
8 Then he describes clothing. You have told us you
9 couldn't remember what Mr Prunty was wearing that night,
10 but in terms of that description, could that fit
11 Mr Prunty as he was then?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. If we go over the page to [09112], about halfway down
14 this section there is a line, and in the middle of the
15 line it says:
16 "I then saw the person that I have described as
17 number (1)", who is the man with the black leather
18 jacket, "running down Thomas Street towards
19 Market Street on the Jamesons Bar side, as he
20 approached the junction of Thomas Street/Market Street
21 he hit out with his right arm and appeared to connect
22 with a person who was standing at this junction. The
23 assault appeared to be on this person's face, it was at
24 this point I realised that it was my girlfriend's
25 brother who was the victim of this assault."
13
1 Could that have happened and you now not remember
2 it?
3 A. I didn't see anything like that happening.
4 Q. Is your memory of the events just before you were
5 knocked out lost to you because you were knocked out?
6 A. Could you repeat that question?
7 Q. Yes. Is your memory of the events that occurred just
8 before you were knocked out now lost to you because you
9 were knocked out?
10 A. I just remember walking down the street. I didn't
11 remember where Robert was, nor E -- nor my wife or
12 sister-in-law was. We just walked down the street.
13 Q. What I suggest to you is you can't remember seeing the
14 Land Rover, which we know is there. What I am
15 wondering -- and see if you can help us with this -- is
16 whether, when you were knocked out, that made you lose
17 your memory for a period before you were knocked out.
18 Do you see what I mean?
19 A. No, I don't understand what you are ...
20 Q. All right. Can you remember anything just before you
21 were knocked out?
22 A. Just that we were making our way home. That's all.
23 Q. Where is the last part of Thomas Street that you can
24 remember being at? Do you remember going past Jamesons,
25 for example?
14
1 A. Not at the moment I don't, no.
2 Q. Can I show you page [01038], please? This is a letter
3 written by a man who lived near the British Legion. Let
4 me read this to you:
5 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
6 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
7 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
8 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,
9 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and
10 I will walk where the f*** I like'."
11 This has some connection with what Maureen McCoy
12 told us what happened, though it is not exactly the
13 same. It has one of the men who is walking down with
14 Robert Hamill, or in the group that Robert Hamill was
15 in, saying, "This is a free country and I will walk
16 where the f*** I like".
17 Have you any recollection of that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. If that had happened, would it have stuck in your mind,
20 do you think?
21 A. I think it would, yes.
22 Q. "At this he shouted to the fellas 'Do you want
23 a fight?' This was shouted about two maybe three times
24 before the crowd at the bakery responded."
25 Same question really: if that had happened, would it
15
1 have stuck in your mind?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did it?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. You know, of course, because you have seen these
6 documents before, that people have said this sort of
7 thing, that there is a great conflict of evidence
8 about -- or conflict of recollection of accounts anyway
9 between what you and your wife and sister say, on the
10 one hand, and what other people say, on the other hand,
11 and the Panel is going to have to make up its mind about
12 whose recollection is right or truthful.
13 Tell us what your attitude is towards this.
14 If you or anybody in your group had started the
15 violence, would you be telling us that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. No question of you covering up if Robert Hamill had done
18 something wrong?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How do you get on with the Hamill family now?
21 A. I don't.
22 Q. Would you try to help them if it would -- would you
23 suppress the truth to try to help them? Would you lie
24 to make it better for Robert Hamill?
25 A. No.
16
1 Q. Can I ask you why you don't get on with the Hamill
2 family? Is it anything to do with the events of the
3 night?
4 A. I don't know. You would need to ask them.
5 Q. Okay. Going back to this letter, the third
6 paragraph down is:
7 "Then from this both sides started provoking each
8 other. The man that had been doing most of the talking
9 then walked out to the middle of the road, placing his
10 bottle to the ground ..."
11 Did anybody in your group or anybody you saw on
12 Thomas Street have a bottle?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Going on:
15 "... he raised his hands into the air and waved as he
16 repeatedly said 'Come on then'."
17 Do you remember any of that happening?
18 A. No.
19 Q. "Eventually one man stepped out from the crowd at the
20 bakery and shouted 'I'll take you then'. At this point
21 the ladies that were with the two men shouted for them
22 to stop and walk home."
23 What he is saying there is the two men were getting
24 aggressive. The two women were trying to stop them.
25 Is that right? Does that apply to you,
17
1 Robert Hamill, your wife and her sister?
2 A. No.
3 Q. It goes on:
4 "But the provoking became worse until both men
5 were about a foot away and sizing each other up. With
6 not one ready to throw a punch, until another man broke
7 from the crowd at the bakery, ran between the both and
8 punched the one facing the town, ran off in the
9 direction of St Mark's Church.
10 "The one who received the blow to his face then
11 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after
12 the man who had thrown the first punch."
13 So what he has then is the trading of a few punches
14 and people running off left at the junction in the
15 direction of St Mark's Church, if you follow me.
16 We know from some descriptions we have that it looks
17 like you ended up on the ground to the left and so did
18 Robert Hamill end up on the ground to the left of the
19 junction.
20 Can you explain how that might have happened?
21 A. No, I have no idea.
22 Q. Okay. There are other statements and interviews of
23 people who describe how the fighting started and
24 describe how it was the people coming from
25 St Patrick's Hall, or the St Patrick's Hall direction,
18
1 who started it, and if I put those to you, would I get
2 the same answer, that that's not how it happened?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But it remains the case, does it, that you don't
5 actually remember how you got knocked out or the events
6 just before it?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Can I get you to look at page [41225], please? If we
9 just flick quickly through the three pages of this, this
10 appears to be, because it is what it says it is, a joint
11 statement made by you, your wife and her sister.
12 Can you tell us how this came about?
13 A. I couldn't remember at the minute how it come about.
14 Q. Okay. Did you go to see xxxxxxxxxx?
15 A. xxxxxxxxxx come to see me.
16 Q. Did she take any -- did she ask you what had happened?
17 A. She did, yes.
18 Q. Do you know whether she took any notes?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. When she came to see you, were you able to tell her any
21 more than you have told, or can't you recall?
22 A. I don't really remember. It's a long time ago. It is
23 12 years ago.
24 Q. Was it shortly after the incident she came to see you?
25 A. I don't remember.
19
1 Q. Okay. Do you know how that came about, that she came to
2 see you?
3 A. I don't, no.
4 Q. If we look at page [81359].
5 At paragraph 44 -- I wonder if this helps you -- you
6 said:
7 "I understand that Diane Hamill made a complaint
8 after the attack through her solicitor xxxxxxxxxx about
9 police inaction on the night. The complaint had nothing
10 to do with me. The Hamill family has done their own
11 thing and I was not consulted. I have been asked why
12 I went to see xxxxxxxxxx after the attack.
13 xxxxxxxxxx was everybody's solicitors back then.
14 I wanted to make a criminal injury claim and also wanted
15 representation in relation to the assault. It took
16 beyond xxxxxxxxxx's death before the criminal
17 injury compensation claim was resolved. I think it took
18 five years."
19 So does that help you? Was it your criminal injury
20 compensation claim that you saw her about, do you think?
21 A. When I first made my statement it was with another
22 solicitor and then that solicitor represented some of
23 the people that was arrested for Robert Hamill's murder.
24 Q. So you went to her after that, did you?
25 A. Yes, because that solicitor had a conflict of interest.
20
1 Q. When you say in that statement you also wanted
2 representation in relation to the assault, did you want
3 a solicitor for two reasons then: one because you wanted
4 to make a claim, and one because you were worried about
5 some sort of proceedings arising out of the assault?
6 A. I just wanted a criminal injury claim and I didn't know
7 what else was going to happen through the Robert Hamill.
8 I was looking for a bit of legal advice.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Okay. I have no further
10 questions for you. Thank you. It may be that others
11 do.
12 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
14 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
15 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
16 Witness D, had you been to St Patrick's Hall before
17 on a Friday or Saturday night?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Presumably with your wife or friends or a combination of
20 both?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. My understanding is that it was a fairly regular
23 occurrence that there was a dance or some kind of social
24 function in St Patrick's Hall?
25 A. It wouldn't have been regular. It would be maybe once
21
1 a month or something like that.
2 Q. Right. So you had been on a number of occasions before
3 this date?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Had you walked home before?
6 A. Sometimes.
7 Q. On those sometimes that you had walked home, would it be
8 the same route you walked home, ie down Thomas Street,
9 across the junction of Market Street/High Street, and
10 over into Woodhouse Street?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can the Panel take it that it would be around about the
13 same time that the functions would end, about 1 o'clock,
14 1.30, that sort of time?
15 A. Depending if they had a late bar or something.
16 Q. Okay. Had you done that without any problem; in other
17 words, had you walked down Thomas Street and across
18 Market Street/High Street and over into Woodhouse Street
19 without encountering any problem from Protestants in the
20 Main Street?
21 A. Had I ever done it before?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not quite sure whether he is agreeing or
25 disagreeing.
22
1 MR ADAIR: I will ask again, sir, if it is not clear.
2 I missed the actual answer.
3 What I am asking you is: on the times that you had
4 walked home before, we know it would be the same route
5 you would take. Isn't that right?
6 A. More or less, yes.
7 Q. Well, what's less about it?
8 A. You could have went another road, another route, if you
9 had wanted. There is --
10 Q. What other route could you go?
11 A. You could have went up William Street.
12 Q. Up William Street and then where?
13 A. Round through -- I am not sure what you call the street.
14 Q. Well, are you saying that sometimes when you are leaving
15 St Pat's, that you would go that route?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Right. Then if we go back to where we were, on the
18 occasions when you have walked from St Pat's to go home,
19 we now know that your route is down Thomas Street,
20 across the junction and into Woodhouse Street. Okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On those occasions, do you agree that you had never
23 encountered any problem with the Protestants in
24 Market Street/High Street as you made your way across
25 the junction?
23
1 A. Not personally.
2 Q. "Not personally", I think was the answer.
3 On any of the occasions that you have gone across
4 that junction, have either you or anyone in your company
5 encountered problems with the Protestants?
6 A. Not that I can remember.
7 Q. Can we take it that you would remember if you had?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. What do you mean you don't know? Have you ever been
10 involved in a fracas, a fight or altercation with the
11 Protestants at this junction ever before this night?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So what was different about this night?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Do I understand that your recollection of this is that
16 neither you nor anyone in your company provoked this
17 assault?
18 A. That's right, yes.
19 Q. Can you help us in any way as to what it was that made
20 this night different to the other nights when you were
21 able to make your way across this junction quite safely?
22 A. Could you repeat that question again?
23 Q. Can you help us in any way as to what was different
24 about this night as opposed to those other nights when
25 you were able to make your way across the junction quite
24
1 safely?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was it not, D, that you and others in your company were
4 both shouting sectarian slogans and ultimately involved
5 in assaulting one of the people down at the junction?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What is the last thing that you actually recall today of
8 going down Thomas Street? Where is the last location
9 that you actually recall walking?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. Well, are you saying you don't remember being in
12 Thomas Street at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, where is the last location -- sorry. That's
15 perhaps ambiguous. Do you remember being in
16 Thomas Street at all that night?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Do you remember coming out of St Pat's Hall?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Do you remember walking down to the bend in the road?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Do you remember walking down from the bend to the
23 junction?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So is the bend the last thing you remember?
25
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. What do you mean you don't know?
3 A. I don't know.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: There is a distance between the bend and the
5 junction, isn't there?
6 MR ADAIR: Yes. Do you remember anything after the bend?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why is that?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you remember being at the bend?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. Are you trying to answer my questions truthfully?
13 A. I am.
14 Q. Do you remember who you were with?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Do you remember seeing Colin Prunty and Maureen McCoy --
17 A. I don't.
18 Q. -- at all that night? Did you see them at all that
19 night?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. Do you know Maureen McCoy?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Do you know Colin Prunty?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Did you talk to them that night?
26
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. You can't remember?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember any conversation that night with
5 Maureen McCoy?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember anything about the journey from the bend
8 down to the junction?
9 A. Not at the minute I don't.
10 Q. In the past, have you remembered something about the
11 journey down from the bend to the junction?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. You don't know. Now, witness D, we know that you were
14 taken to hospital. Do you remember waking up in
15 hospital?
16 A. Vaguely.
17 Q. Did the police, over the following day, or days,
18 approach you on a number of occasions trying to get
19 a statement from you?
20 A. The police approached me on the Sunday in the hospital.
21 Q. I think you described it at one stage that you were
22 actually being harassed by the police to make
23 a statement. Is that right?
24 A. I don't know about that.
25 Q. Well, was it clear to you, Witness D, that the police
27
1 were anxious to get a statement from you as to what had
2 happened and what you knew about the assault?
3 A. Could you ask me that question again?
4 Q. Was it clear to you, at that time, that the police were
5 anxious to get from you a witness statement as to what
6 had occurred and what you were able to tell them about
7 the assault?
8 A. I made a statement voluntarily to the police.
9 Q. Pardon?
10 A. I made my statement voluntarily to the police.
11 Q. I am not suggesting otherwise. All I am asking you is
12 this: was it clear to you, at that time, that the police
13 were very anxious to get a statement from you?
14 A. No.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it clear that they wanted to know
16 whatever you could tell them about the incident?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 MR ADAIR: Did you do that? You told them everything you
20 could about the incident?
21 A. I did, yes.
22 Q. Now, we know that you were also -- that you also made
23 a statement to the -- let me rephrase that.
24 We know you were also talked to by the Committee for
25 the Administration of Justice. Do you remember you were
28
1 asked that by Mr Underwood?
2 A. Sorry?
3 Q. We know that you were also talked to, along with two
4 other witnesses, by the Committee -- the CAJ. Maybe you
5 know them as the CAJ. Do you not remember talking to
6 the CAJ?
7 A. Not at the minute I don't, no.
8 Q. Who asked you to go to the CAJ?
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. Was it xxxxxxxxxx?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Was it the Hamill family?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. When you were asked to go to the CAJ, were you asked to
15 highlight certain things?
16 A. I can't remember.
17 Q. When you talked to the Inquiry, you indicated to them
18 that you were asked to highlight certain things whenever
19 you were talking to the CAJ.
20 Now, what I would like to know is, what was it you
21 were asked to highlight?
22 A. I've no idea.
23 Q. Well, you were able to tell the Inquiry -- when was it
24 that you spoke to the Inquiry?
25 A. Probably last year.
29
1 Q. Well, you were able to tell the Inquiry then, when you
2 talked to them, that you had been requested to highlight
3 certain things to the CAJ.
4 Now, if you are able to say that, are you not able
5 to say what those things were that you were asked to
6 highlight?
7 A. I don't remember them.
8 Q. Or are you just not telling us?
9 A. I don't know what you are asking me.
10 Q. I am asking you what it was that you were asked to
11 highlight?
12 A. I don't know what I was highlighting or what I was asked
13 to highlight.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember what they asked you to tell
15 them about.
16 A. No.
17 MR ADAIR: Can you remember anything about talking to the
18 CAJ?
19 A. Not at the minute.
20 Q. Can you remember anything about -- and I am going to
21 leave it at this -- any conversation you had either with
22 xxxxxxxxxx or the Hamill family about highlighting
23 something to the CAJ? Can you remember anything?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you remember being asked to give a blood sample by
30
1 the police for exclusion purposes? Do you remember the
2 police coming to you and asking you could they have
3 a blood sample for exclusion purposes for DNA?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps if you take that in two parts, it may
5 help us.
6 MR ADAIR: Very well, sir.
7 Do you remember the police asking you for a blood
8 sample?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It may be that you didn't know the purpose of it. Is
11 that sort of maybe --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know whether he does or not, but it
13 was two questions in one, wasn't it?
14 MR ADAIR: Yes.
15 Did you refuse to give a blood sample to the police?
16 A. I was instructed by my solicitor not to give a blood
17 sample to the police.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: So you refused, did you?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR ADAIR: These were the police that were trying to
21 investigate the incident involved in the death of
22 Robert Hamill?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about is the --
25 you have told us -- and, again, I want to make it clear
31
1 to you, if this is a personal thing, then please tell
2 us -- you have told us that you have suffered
3 aggravation or harassment. The precise word was -- what
4 word did you use in relation to the Hamill family?
5 A. Sorry? Repeat that question.
6 Q. We know you don't get on with the Hamill family. You
7 were asked was that to do with this case. Your response
8 was, "You had better ask the Hamill family".
9 Do you remember saying that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it something to do with what you were asked to do or
12 say that caused the fall-out?
13 A. I don't know. You would need to ask the Hamill family.
14 Q. Well, I am asking you, D. Is it something to do with
15 what you were asked to say by somebody that has caused
16 this fall-out with the Hamill family?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Well, you do know, D, I suggest to you. I would like
19 you to tell us what it is.
20 A. You would like me to ask -- tell you what?
21 Q. I would like you to tell this Panel what it is that has
22 caused this fall-out?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: D, just see if you can help us. You became
25 aware that there was a fall-out. Is that right?
32
1 A. Fall-out between?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: You and the Hamill family.
3 A. Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Did it just happen suddenly out of the blue
5 or did it ...
6 A. It happened a couple of years after it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I know, but when it did happen, did anything
8 lead up to it?
9 A. Not that I know of.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: So it just happened out of the blue, did it?
11 A. More or less.
12 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: You described it in your
13 statement as aggravation that you had received. So,
14 I mean, can you -- does that help you to be able to say
15 what was the nature of the aggravation that caused you
16 to be aggrieved.
17 A. One of the Hamills fought with me in the street.
18 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: About?
19 A. I don't know. You would need to ask him.
20 MR ADAIR: Which one of the Hamills fought with you in the
21 street?
22 A. P54
23 Q. Did he say why he was fighting with you in the street?
24 Did he indicate what the cause of his problem was?
25 A. No.
33
1 Q. Has anyone ever explained to you what the cause of
2 P54 Hamill fighting with you in the street was?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I will ask again, D, and I am going to leave it at this:
5 have you been asked by anyone, whether it be a member of
6 the Hamill family or xxxxxxxxxx or anyone else, to
7 say something to CAJ or any other body about this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You can't help us then as to the cause of the fall-out,
10 the aggravation?
11 A. You would need to ask him.
12 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 MR McGRORY: No questions.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Does any other counsel wish to ask questions?
16 Yes, Mr Mallon?
17 Cross-examination by MR MALLON
18 MR MALLON: You say in paragraph 44 of your statement that
19 you made to the Tribunal:
20 "I wanted to make a criminal injury claim and also
21 wanted representation in relation to the assault."
22 What assault was that?
23 A. The assault that took place on me that night.
24 Q. The assault that took place on you that night. I see.
25 It wasn't any other assault?
34
1 A. What do you mean?
2 Q. Were you not involved in the assault at the bottom of
3 the street, in the fighting?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn't want representation in respect of that?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. You didn't want representation in respect of that?
8 A. Of the assault?
9 Q. The assault that occurred before you were involved in
10 the fighting, the assault on David Woods?
11 A. I never assaulted anyone.
12 MR MALLON: Thank you.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, sir.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Thank you. You are free to go now.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
17 (The witness withdrew).
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, that concludes this week's evidence.
19 Can I just run through the schedule for next week?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Please, yes.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: It is proposed we make a 10 o'clock start on
22 Tuesday. We will have Mr Hull at 10 o'clock. We have
23 four of the six witnesses who were either in or above
24 Jamesons also coming on Tuesday. We have Mr McNeice at
25 2 o'clock.
35
1 On Wednesday, we have the two remaining witnesses
2 who were in or above Jamesons. I am sorry to be vague
3 about identifying those six, but on Monday, we will
4 confirm precisely who they are for which day.
5 Once all of those witnesses are heard, I hope at
6 some time on Wednesday I will give a further opening for
7 the next section of witnesses, who will be led by
8 Tracey Clarke.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That will be on Thursday, will it?
10 MR UNDERWOOD: It is possible we will do it on Wednesday.
11 Given the speed we are getting through witnesses, I hope
12 we might get through all of those on Tuesday and
13 Wednesday, otherwise, sir, yes, on Thursday. Then we
14 will run through that section of witnesses who have to
15 do with Tracey Clarke's evidence from then on.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Then 10 o'clock on
17 Tuesday.
18 (11.25 am)
19 (The hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock
20 on Tuesday, 27th January 2009)
21
22 --ooOoo--
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5 Cross-examination by MR MALLON ............ 34
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