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Hearing: 22nd January 2009, day 7
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 22nd January 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 7
1 Thursday, 22nd January 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. I am going to call the witness
5 we know as E.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
7 WITNESS E (sworn)
8 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
10 A. Hello.
11 Q. My name is Ashley Underwood. I am here for the Inquiry.
12 I will be asking you most of the questions today. Some
13 other people may ask you some questions at the end of
14 it.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I know you have made various statements. We will see
17 some of those on screen in a bit. I will get you to
18 identify them. The object really here today is to ask
19 you what you remember.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. If you can't remember something, you say so.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. If I push you too hard on trying to remember something,
24 just say I am pushing you too hard. The object is to
25 get out the truth of what happened. All right?
1
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Can I first of all ask you to look at the statement you
3 gave to the Inquiry? Now, that will come up on the
4 screen as [81369]. If we flick through this quite
5 quickly, I just want to get you to see whether it is
6 your statement or not. All right? Is that your
7 statement?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Is it true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we just look at a statement you gave to the police at
12 [09096]. Again, I just want to you look at -- it is two
13 pages. If we look at both of those pages quite quickly,
14 is that a statement you gave on 27th April 1997?
15 A. It is, yes.
16 Q. Now, can you tell us how good your memory is of the
17 events of 27th April?
18 A. Now?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Some parts stick and, you know -- some things stick in
21 your mind and others ...
22 Q. All right. Let's see how we get on. I think you are
23 Portadown born and bred, are you?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. On the night of the 26th/27th, you went to
2
1 St Patrick's Hall?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who did you go with?
4 A. I went with my husband and my sister.
5 Q. We are calling your husband D.
6 A. D, yes.
7 Q. We are calling your sister F.
8 A. Sorry.
9 Q. That's all right. As long as you know what we are
10 calling them.
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. How long were you there?
13 A. At least three hours.
14 Q. Did you have much to drink while you were there?
15 A. No. Maybe three or four drinks. I had a young baby at
16 home at the time.
17 Q. What sort of state were you in when you left?
18 A. Fine.
19 Q. One of the things we are very interested in is what time
20 people left there. Can you help us with that?
21 A. Well, looking at my statement, I have said about 1.20,
22 because I knew I had to get home to let the babysitter
23 go home, because she had to go to work the next morning.
24 Q. Had you got a specific time for the babysitter you told
25 her you were going to be back, or were you just thinking
3
1 that was a reasonable time to let her go?
2 A. I hadn't a specific time. I just think that was
3 a reasonable time.
4 Q. Can you describe the scene to us when you were leaving
5 St Patrick's Hall? Were people crowding out at the same
6 time or were you going out pretty much on your own or
7 what?
8 A. I think just pretty much on our own. I didn't, you
9 know, notice anyone behind me there.
10 Q. Did you leave with Robert Hamill?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Did you decide to walk?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why was that?
15 A. We couldn't get a taxi, and from St Patrick's Hall to my
16 house would take fifteen minutes maybe on foot.
17 Q. When you say you couldn't get a taxi, do you remember
18 what the position was about that? Was there a queue for
19 the phones? Were there no taxis available or what?
20 A. I can't remember. I just, you know, thought it would be
21 quicker then to walk.
22 Q. Okay. We have a model of the scene and the night model.
23 If we can have that up on screen, it might help you.
24 This is taken from a set of photographs and they have
25 been compiled into this model. We can move it around.
4
1 If we move it round to the right, we can look down
2 Thomas Street. If we stop it there for a bit, this only
3 shows us so far down Thomas Street, of course, because
4 there is a bend, isn't there --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- roughly where the British Legion is?
7 I want to ask you what happened immediately after
8 you left St Patrick's Hall to start with. You say you
9 were walking with your husband and with F, your
10 sister --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- and with Robert Hamill. Was anybody else on the
13 street, can you recall?
14 A. No. I can't recall.
15 Q. I know you previously, I think in your police statement,
16 said there was --
17 A. A couple in front.
18 Q. Do you remember that or not?
19 A. Yes, in front of us, yes.
20 Q. Very far ahead?
21 A. I couldn't be sure.
22 Q. We know, because we have heard from them, that
23 Maureen McCoy and Colin Prunty were also on the street,
24 though not necessarily in front of you. Do you remember
25 them on the street at that stage?
5
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sorry. Did you know them then, I should have asked.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you walked up. Can I ask you how things developed?
7 For a start, were you walking down the middle of the
8 street or on the pavement?
9 A. I can't be sure.
10 Q. Okay. Did anything happen when you got to the
11 British Legion?
12 A. No.
13 Q. We have heard from Maureen McCoy that she recalls being
14 stopped and you, you sister, your husband and
15 Robert Hamill were standing at about the British Legion
16 looking up the street and that there were some people
17 peering round from the Market Street/High Street end,
18 and that your sister told Maureen McCoy nobody should be
19 going up there, because there would be trouble.
20 Now, do you recall that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Again, it is not a memory test. If that had happened,
23 do you think you would have remembered it?
24 A. Yes, I think I would.
25 Q. Okay. So you carried on walking up you think?
6
1 A. Down.
2 Q. Sorry, down. Walking up towards where we are on here?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you move on, you said you didn't
4 remember that. There were really two parts to the
5 question. The people poking their heads round the
6 corner, and your sister saying something. Do you
7 remember the people --
8 A. No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't. Thank you.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: So you carried on walking up. Now, if we
11 swing slightly to the left here -- thank you -- we can
12 see Jamesons. We can see a bit down the High Street.
13 Did you see anybody at the top as you were walking
14 down or up the Thomas Street?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can you recall what happened to the couple you think
17 were in front of you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Because I think in one of your police statements you
20 said that you saw them crossing over to
21 Woodhouse Street. Does that not ring any bells now?
22 A. Well, if I have said it in my statement, you know,
23 I will have to refer to my statement, but I can't
24 remember now. It's 12 years.
25 Q. All right. As I say, it is not a memory test. Tell us
7
1 what you can remember.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. What happened when you got to the junction here?
4 A. To the bottom of the junction?
5 Q. Where we are in the screen, did anything happen when you
6 were around here?
7 A. I can't say.
8 Q. Okay. What happened when you were crossing the road?
9 A. We didn't get to cross the road. The next thing
10 I remember is my husband and Robert being attacked and
11 the two of them on the ground.
12 Q. Right. Let's try to go back over that. Can you
13 remember in what sort of order you were walking? Were
14 the girls walking together and the men walking with each
15 other or what?
16 A. Yes. The boys were a few steps in front of myself and
17 my sister.
18 Q. Okay. As far as you were concerned, was it just the
19 four of you, or had Maureen McCoy and Colin Prunty --
20 A. Just the four of us.
21 Q. Do you remember, were you chatting?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: That's you and your sister?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
8
1 MR UNDERWOOD: You say the next thing you know the boys were
2 attacked. Is that it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If we swing around a bit to the left on this model, can
5 you tell us where this happened on here? If you stop
6 there.
7 A. It would have been --
8 Q. Actually, I need to ask some questions of the technical
9 people. Can we have a screen shot and control to the
10 witness, please?
11 What this will allow you to do is actually mark on
12 the screen with that pen that's in front of you.
13 A. It was more up towards Market Street.
14 Q. Do you want me to swing this round more?
15 A. Please.
16 Q. Round to the left?
17 A. Yes, please.
18 Q. Okay. Tell us where to stop. We can always go
19 backwards.
20 A. About here -- No. On, on round. Sorry.
21 Q. Okay?
22 A. D was outside Eastwoods Clothing. That's where he was
23 lying.
24 Q. I see. Can you help us with which side of the street
25 you were walking on at this point?
9
1 A. I can't be sure what side I was on, but I know that when
2 D was down on the ground I must have froze for a few
3 seconds and then went to help him.
4 Q. All right. Sorry, I will just go back up a bit.
5 You were going to go up Woodhouse Street, weren't
6 you?
7 A. Down Woodhouse Street. Sorry. In Portadown it is down.
8 Q. Along Woodhouse Street?
9 A. No, down.
10 Q. Is the likelihood you would have been on the right-hand
11 side of the pavement to get over into Woodhouse Street?
12 A. I think I was still on the side of the street of
13 Jamesons, that side.
14 Q. So there is an attack?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Coming from where?
17 A. I don't know where they came from. I couldn't honestly
18 say.
19 Q. What happened to your husband for a start?
20 A. He was knocked unconscious.
21 Q. Did you see how? Was it a fist or a bottle or anything?
22 A. No. You know, one minute he was in front of me, and the
23 next minute he was on the ground.
24 Q. You were telling us here that he was on the ground
25 somewhere outside Eastwoods --
10
1 A. Eastwoods Clothing.
2 Q. Can you manage to mark that on the screen for us, do you
3 think?
4 A. Could you swing it round?
5 Q. Of course. Round to the right or left?
6 A. Back. It would have been near -- sorry. Stop there and
7 go back a wee bit. It would be -- I can't see the road,
8 the footpath.
9 Q. I think we can probably go down a bit.
10 A. Yes, please. The kerbing is not clear there, but it was
11 near the kerbing of the ...
12 THE CHAIRMAN: This shows a central reservation between the
13 two carriageways.
14 A. Yes. No, it wasn't there. D was over towards
15 Eastwoods, you know, the pathway leading round, because
16 there is a bend.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's look at a map instead, shall we? If we
18 look at the police vehicle positions map, police vehicle
19 positions and cordon, can you get your bearings here?
20 Can you see, at the bottom of the page, Thomas Street?
21 It is not marked. You can see Number 7 Home Bakery, you
22 can see Eastwoods --
23 A. Yes, I can see Eastwood Clothing and the kerbing going
24 round.
25 Q. If we can do a screen shot of this, do you want to try
11
1 to mark on there where ...
2 A. I can't be exactly sure because --
3 Q. No, that is all right.
4 A. I would say Eastwoods is here, you know, past the
5 kerbing.
6 Q. Where the pen is now?
7 A. If that's the kerb, you know.
8 Q. It is I think.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Did you see what happened?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: So he had got into High Street, had he?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you see what happened to Robert Hamill?
14 A. No. I just seen Robert lying on the ground too.
15 Q. Right. When you saw him lying on the ground, did you
16 see the attackers at that stage?
17 A. There were people there, but, you know, I couldn't, you
18 know -- they were there.
19 Q. Were they around him or all over the place or what?
20 A. They were more just round this -- sorry.
21 Q. It is all right. Don't worry.
22 A. Behind him. Robert was lying, D was lying and they
23 were sort of round behind them at Market Street end.
24 Q. You just mentioned where Robert was lying.
25 A. Yes.
12
1 Q. There came a point, did there, when you saw Robert was
2 on the ground as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where was he roughly?
5 A. Roughly across the road from D.
6 Q. Again, if you could mark that.
7 A. I think around here. I can't be exactly sure, but it
8 was near the central reservation.
9 Q. Right. Did you see Robert go down or did you just see
10 him on the ground?
11 A. I just seen him on the ground.
12 Q. Were there people around him or not?
13 A. There were people there, yes.
14 Q. Were they doing anything to him?
15 A. I couldn't say, you know, now.
16 Q. I know in your statement to the police you say you saw
17 them jumping on his head, and then, in an interview
18 after that you say you saw them -- I may be wrong about
19 that. Did you see anybody jumping on his head?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you see anybody kicking him?
22 A. I can't be sure.
23 Q. All right. What did you do?
24 A. I went to my husband and just lay over the top of my
25 husband.
13
1 Q. What state were you in?
2 A. Absolutely petrified, but I think shock had kicked in,
3 you know.
4 Q. Did you keep your head down or were you looking around
5 you when you were with him?
6 A. I think I had my head down.
7 Q. What happened after that?
8 A. The next thing I remember is an ambulance coming and
9 then a policeman came over and said to me to put D --
10 well, my husband, in the recovery position, and that was
11 it.
12 Q. Did you see anything else happen to Robert Hamill?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you see him go in the ambulance?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see your husband go in the ambulance?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did your husband regain consciousness by that stage
19 or --
20 A. I can't be sure. I can't be sure. We went in the
21 ambulance with them.
22 Q. Do you know who else went in the ambulance?
23 A. It was just me, my husband, Robert and my sister.
24 Q. Okay. Did you tell the ambulance crew what had
25 happened?
14
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Okay. I want to go back over some of that and see if we
3 can develop some of it from statements you have made
4 before and from what other people have said.
5 First of all, I want to do the best we can about
6 what people were wearing on the night.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Can you recall what you were wearing?
9 A. I was wearing, I think, black silk trousers, a blue
10 shirt, a blue denim shirt and a black coat.
11 Q. Okay. What about your sister?
12 A. My sister was wearing cream Levis, a cream top and
13 a cream jacket.
14 Q. And your husband?
15 A. He was wearing a navy and white striped top.
16 Q. If we look at page [00702], this is the statement of one
17 of the police officers. If I pick the top half of the
18 text up, he says, second sentence:
19 "On Sunday 27th April 1997 at 0147 hours I was
20 directed to a street disturbance in Portadown town
21 centre. Upon arrival at the scene, I observed two male
22 persons lying on the Church Street bound direction of
23 High Street. I immediately tasked an ambulance. Number
24 one was a male dressed in a shirt and trousers. He was
25 semi-conscious and appeared to have a head injury.
15
1 Several people were attending this person one of which
2 I now know to be his wife. This man was on his back.
3 I now know this man to be D. I advised E to turn D
4 over. E and the people with her did so."
5 So again, at the moment -- we may have to come back
6 to this for parts of that -- he describes your husband
7 there as wearing a shirt and trousers. Is there any
8 possibility your husband was wearing a black leather
9 jacket?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can you recall what Robert Hamill was wearing?
12 A. Robert was wearing a black jacket, a black,
13 three-quarter length, what we call "just past the
14 bum" -- sorry for my language -- leather jacket.
15 Q. I want to ask you about what some other people say about
16 how this all developed, which contradicts what you say.
17 First of all, can I ask you: did you see a police
18 vehicle when you were walking down Thomas Street or up
19 Thomas Street, whichever it is?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we go back to the night model, we have a Land Rover
22 put in that position. Don't take it from us that that's
23 necessarily where it was. Can you help us, though? Was
24 it there or around there?
25 A. It was round that vicinity, yes.
16
1 Q. Can you tell us, when you first saw it, were you fairly
2 well up Thomas Street?
3 A. I can't remember when I first saw it, but there was
4 a Land Rover there.
5 Q. Did you have any reaction to that? Did you feel safe or
6 unsafe?
7 A. I just thought, "There's the police".
8 Q. Then, I know you have been shown these statements
9 before, but can I show you the statement of Mr Jones,
10 which we see at page [09111]? If we can highlight all
11 the text, please. He says -- and we will see some
12 photographs of this, if you want them, that he lived at
13 a flat above Jamesons. He says here in the second
14 sentence:
15 "On Sunday morning the 27th of April 1997 I was at home along
16 with my girlfriend ... At approximately 2.00 am I heard
17 loud voices coming from the direction of the
18 British Legion area of Thomas Street. I looked out of
19 my window which overlooks the bottom of Thomas Street onto
20 Market Street, I saw three or four men running down
21 Thomas Street towards Market Street, they were in the
22 middle of the road. Also in this group of men there
23 were three women."
24 First of all, was anybody in your group making
25 a noise like that?
17
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was anybody in your group running?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now let's go on to this description:
5 "The man I have mentioned I can describe as
6 follows."
7 He gives descriptions here of three people:
8 "(1) Approximately 5'10", medium build, dark
9 short hair, he was wearing a black leather jacket
10 which was waist-length and black trousers I'm not
11 sure if they were of jean material."
12 Now, could that describe either of the men you were
13 with or anybody else you were seeing?
14 A. The only one with the black leather jacket in my group
15 was Robert.
16 Q. Was he 5 foot 10 and medium build?
17 A. I don't know what height he is. Now, I would say he
18 would be slightly bigger.
19 Q. Did he have dark, short hair?
20 A. No. Fair hair.
21 Q. Okay:
22 "(2) Approx 5'8", light build, dirty fair
23 hair short, he was wearing a grey jumper which had
24 a pattern all over it and he was wearing light coloured
25 blue jeans."
18
1 Now, was your husband about 5 foot 8?
2 A. I couldn't say what size my husband is. He is slightly
3 smaller than me.
4 Q. Light build?
5 A. Now, no, but then, maybe. He played a lot of football
6 and Gaelic, so he was -- he had broad shoulders.
7 Q. Okay. Dirty-fair hair worn short?
8 A. He has jet black hair.
9 Q. You have already told us he was not wearing a grey
10 jumper.
11 A. No.
12 Q. What about the light-coloured blue jeans?
13 A. Of D?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I think D was wearing dark jeans.
16 Q. How tall are you?
17 A. I am about -- I don't know. I have high heels on today.
18 I know he is slightly smaller than me.
19 Q. All right. Then he gives the ages of the first two men.
20 The first one, which is the one in the black leather
21 jacket, 24 to 26 years old; and number (2), 26 to 28.
22 How old was your husband then?
23 A. We would have been 30.
24 Q. Then he goes on to describe number (3):
25 "approx 5'10", stocky/well built,
19
1 blond/fair hair shaved into the side and back and
2 brushed back on top."
3 Now, you are quite clear, are you, there was nobody
4 of that description with you?
5 A. No. I was with my sister, my husband and Robert.
6 Q. Did you see Colin Prunty at all that night?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Then if we go over the page [09112], take the top half,
9 if we may. He talks about shoes. Then the age of the
10 man he was just describing. He says:
11 "I cannot describe the females ... I had these
12 persons in my view for approximately 20 seconds, they
13 would have been 15 yards away from me at the
14 furthest point and approximately 5 yards at the
15 closest."
16 Then he talks about the street lighting and that
17 these are the only people out there. Halfway down this,
18 he says:
19 "I then saw the person that I have described as
20 number (1)", who is the man in the black leather jacket,
21 "running down Thomas Street towards Market Street on the
22 Jamesons Bar side, as he approached the junction of
23 Thomas Street/Market Street, he hit out with his right
24 arm and appeared to connect with a person who was
25 standing at this junction. The assault appeared to be
20
1 on this person's face. It was at this point I realised
2 that it was my girlfriend's brother who was the victim
3 of this assault."
4 So you see this person is saying that this all
5 started with the group coming along Thomas Street and
6 that the man in the black leather jacket started the
7 fight.
8 Obviously that's inconsistent with what you are
9 telling us. Would you like to say anything about this?
10 A. I would just like to say no-one in my group -- and that
11 was Robert, myself, my husband and my sister -- touched
12 anyone.
13 Q. It may well be suggested that what happened is that
14 there was some provocation, perhaps on both sides, and
15 that what you are now doing is covering up to protect
16 Robert's memory.
17 What would you say to that?
18 A. I am not covering up anything to protect Robert's
19 memory. I am telling you the truth. There was no-one
20 in my group assaulted anyone that night and my group
21 consisted of the four of us.
22 Q. Then if we look at -- you remember this man says the
23 person he saw being hit was his girlfriend's brother.
24 That person is called David Woods.
25 Now, David Woods was arrested and he was interviewed
21
1 by the police. Again, I know you have seen this, but
2 I want to put it to you so you can help us, if you
3 would.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. We can look at the transcript of his interview at
6 page [07496]. It is probably best if we don't magnify
7 these, because I am going to be running over the pages
8 quite fast. If you see about three-quarters of the way
9 down the page, there is a line that starts:
10 Answer: "Yes. I was walking up past Jamesons Bar
11 and --"
12 Question: "On the same side of the street as
13 Jamesons Bar?"
14 Answer: "Yes."
15 Question: "Okay."
16 Over the page, [07497]:
17 Answer: "And I heard people shouting you Orange
18 bastard. That was the sound as I came up from the
19 town."
20 Question: "Did this come from behind you or in front
21 of you?"
22 Answer: "This was coming from in front of me."
23 Question: "So these people were actually coming down
24 Thomas Street to meet you?"
25 Answer: "They were at, outside the Legion bar,
22
1 I was outside Jamesons Bar."
2 What he is saying is he was the person who was first
3 hit and he was going into Thomas Street from the
4 Market Street end. He was outside Jamesons. There was
5 a group outside the British Legion and the group outside
6 the British Legion was shouting "Orange bastard" at him
7 and that's what led to the coming together of the
8 violence.
9 Again, did any of that happen?
10 A. No-one in my group shouted anything, and, honestly, if
11 you lived in Portadown, you know, when you are going
12 past Jamesons Bar, you go past it as quickly and as
13 quietly as you can, because it is a well-known Loyalist
14 bar.
15 Q. Is it possible that the couple that you saw in front of
16 you got involved in this? The couple you saw in front
17 of you did some shouting and got involved with
18 David Woods or anybody?
19 A. I couldn't say. I know nobody in my group shouted
20 "Orange bastards".
21 Q. Can you give us some sort of impression of the noise
22 levels and how far people were away from you? Because
23 what I want to get out of you if, I can, is the couple
24 that you saw walking in front of you, if they had got
25 involved in some sort of shouting match, were you likely
23
1 to have heard it or were they too far away from you?
2 A. I couldn't say. I would be telling you a lie.
3 I couldn't say, but I know no-one in my group shouted.
4 Q. Going on here, the middle of the page:
5 Question: "Right and what did you hear them saying?"
6 Answer: "Orange bastards, up the IRA."
7 Question: "Right who was saying this or how many
8 people were in this group?"
9 Answer: "There was about three fellows and two
10 girls."
11 Question: "And two girls right. Did you know any
12 of the group concerned? Did you know any of them by
13 name?"
14 Answer: "No."
15 Question: "You didn't. Right were they directing
16 that comment at you?"
17 Answer: "Yes."
18 Question: "And what happened?"
19 Answer: "I stood there."
20 Question: "You stopped?"
21 Answer: "I stopped. I was afraid."
22 Question: "You were afraid. Were you going to have
23 to pass them?"
24 Answer: "Yes."
25 Question: "Right. So these people came down the
24
1 street and said this or directed this comment towards
2 you?"
3 Answer: "Yes."
4 Question: "Did they know you?"
5 Answer: "No."
6 Question: "It is just I am wondering how they knew
7 what religion you were."
8 Answer: "They must have assumed I was from the
9 town."
10 Question: "They assumed. Right okay. So there is
11 two women and three men?"
12 Answer: "Yes."
13 Question: "Was it men or boys?"
14 Answer: "Fully grown men."
15 Question: "Fully grown men. Big lumps of fellows?"
16 Answer: "Yes."
17 Question: "Were they bigger than you?"
18 Answer: "Yes."
19 Question: "They were. Do you remember which one of
20 the men said this or what he looked like, David?"
21 Answer: "Yes. He had a blue shirt on and a tie."
22 Question: "A blue shirt and a tie on?"
23 Answer: "Yes."
24 Question: "You remember that quite well?"
25 Answer: "Yes."
25
1 Question: "Right and what age would that fellow
2 have been?"
3 Answer: "Late twenties."
4 Now, nobody in your group had a blue shirt on and
5 a tie, did they? You tell us.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Then:
8 Question: "Late twenties. Was he smaller than you or
9 taller than you or what?"
10 Answer: "He was taller and bigger build."
11 He goes on to describe it. If we go over the
12 page to [07501], in the middle of the page:
13 Question: "Right okay, tell me what happened."
14 Answer: "The other man with him came running at me."
15 Question: "What was he dressed in?"
16 Answer: "He had a black coat on."
17 Question: "Do you know what type of coat it was?"
18 Answer: "A leather coat."
19 That's then described as a straight leather jacket,
20 a box jacket.
21 So he is there saying that, of all the people, there
22 is a man with a black leather jacket which he describes
23 as a box leather jacket, who comes at him.
24 What do you say to that?
25 A. No-one in my group attacked anyone that night.
26
1 Q. Let's go back to your statement. I want to ask you
2 about some other versions here. People who were in
3 Jamesons Bar, who were the staff who were locking up,
4 have given statements. I think that what they are going
5 to tell the Inquiry is that, while they were locking up,
6 they heard a group, which they take to be Catholics,
7 coming down the street shouting Catholic slogans and
8 banging on the shutters of Jamesons.
9 Now, were any of your group involved in that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. They say that then led directly to the fight. So again,
12 it is contrary to what you say, because on their version
13 of events, they are saying it is a noisy, rowdy group,
14 and, contrary to what you say about going quietly past
15 Jamesons, they say you did just the thing you tell us
16 you ought not to do, which was causing trouble outside
17 there and creating a fight.
18 Again, would you like to comment on that?
19 A. We walked -- yous people really don't know Portadown.
20 To get past -- to go past Jamesons, you do it, as I said
21 before, as quickly, quietly as you can to get to the
22 other side of the street into your area, you know, into
23 Woodhouse Street, where you know, "I am on the home
24 straight".
25 Q. This may seem a very simple question from somebody
27
1 coming from outside of the area: how did you know that
2 was a good thing to do?
3 A. Sorry?
4 Q. How did you know that was a wise thing to do?
5 A. Because I have lived in Portadown all my life.
6 Q. Had you seen trouble there before?
7 A. Well, Portadown is, you know, in the town there -- there
8 does be -- there was trouble previous.
9 Q. Had you seen any in that area?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. One other version of this I would like to show you as
12 page [01038]. Now, this is a man who lived further down
13 by the British Legion, who says this:
14 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
15 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
16 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
17 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,
18 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and
19 I will walk where the f*** I like'."
20 Now the reason I am asking you to look at this is
21 that this is a bit like what Maureen McCoy tells us
22 happened, with F telling her not to go any further.
23 As far as I am aware, Maureen McCoy did not know
24 about the existence of this document when she first said
25 that and when she first told the police that's what had
28
1 happened. So people are going to wonder why it is, if
2 there was no discussion like that, that this man was
3 able to hear it and Maureen McCoy remembers it.
4 Now, are you quite sure that there was no discussion
5 between F and anybody else, your sister and anybody
6 else, about not going any further?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He goes on:
9 "At this, he shouted to the fellas, 'Do you want
10 a fight?' This was shouted about two maybe three times
11 before the crowd at the bakery responded.
12 Then from this both sides started provoking each
13 other. The man that had been doing most of the talking
14 then walked out to the middle of the road, placing his
15 bottle to the ground, he raised his hands into the air
16 and waved as he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'."
17 Did anybody in your group have a bottle, do you
18 remember?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you recall anything like this at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would you have recalled it if it had happened?
23 A. I would.
24 Q. If this had happened, then what he is really saying is
25 that all the men in this group, that is both
29
1 Robert Hamill and your husband, started the fight. If
2 your husband had started the fight by this, what would
3 you be telling us?
4 A. My husband didn't start a fight.
5 Q. He goes on:
6 "Eventually one man stepped out from the crowd at
7 the bakery and shouted 'I'll take you then'. At this
8 point the ladies that were with the two men shouted for
9 them to stop and walk home ..."
10 What he is saying is that the women were the
11 peacemakers. They were trying to stop the men getting
12 involved. Do you recall anything of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have any chance to try to stop anything?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Then he goes on:
17 "... But the provoking became worse until both men
18 were about a foot away and sizing each other up. With
19 not one ready to throw a punch, until another man broke
20 from the crowd at the bakery, ran between the both and
21 punched the one facing the town, ran off in the
22 direction of St Mark's Church.
23 "The one who received the blow to his face then
24 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after
25 the man who had thrown the first punch.
30
1 "Then one by one the crowd started to run in the
2 direction of the fight. Being followed by the man and
3 both ladies who had been with the person who had started
4 the provocation."
5 Stopping there, can you tell us -- he has people
6 running off in the direction of St Mark's Church. That
7 means they would have turned left out of Thomas Street
8 instead of going across to Woodhouse Street.
9 You have shown us, by marking as you have, that both
10 Robert and your husband were on the ground to the left.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you explain how they got to the left?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Then he goes on:
15 "The police tried to break up the small crowd
16 without siding with either side, trying to calm the
17 situation, but having no success they had to call for
18 more police to control the crowd. Two cars pulled into
19 the middle of the town, one marked car and an unmarked
20 Sierra, the police then ran in the direction of
21 St Mark's Church."
22 Now, what I want to ask you about next is really
23 whether you saw police -- you told us you saw one
24 policeman. We have already seen the witness statement
25 at page [00702] of the officer who said he came over to
31
1 you and advised the recovery position.
2 Now, was he the first policeman you saw, do you
3 think?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see any others?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You have very candidly told us you were very upset
8 indeed and you kept your head down?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it possible there were police around trying to
11 control it?
12 A. I never seen any police officers at the time.
13 Q. How would you have seen them if you had your head down?
14 Did you look up from time to time?
15 A. Yes. You know, just peeping up.
16 Q. It obviously was a very upsetting experience, and I am
17 not suggesting you should have seen all of it or be able
18 to give us total recall of it, but what I want to do
19 is push you as hard as I can to tell us what you might
20 have seen.
21 The impression some witnesses have given so far is
22 that there was a very vicious attack indeed on
23 Mr Hamill, with ten or fifteen people kicking at him or
24 kicking him, but that police got involved in that and
25 one witness has told us the police actually got that
32
1 crowd off him.
2 Could that have happened without you seeing it?
3 A. I don't know. I just recall seeing the one police
4 officer as the ambulance arrived telling me to put my
5 husband in the recovery position.
6 Q. We have also heard that the police at some point formed
7 a line and pushed Protestants up towards
8 St Mark's Church. Again, were you aware of that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Again, I am pushing you as hard as I can on memory here.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Just tell me if I go too far. Can you give us any
13 impression of how long it took between the attack
14 starting and the ambulance coming?
15 A. I've no idea.
16 Q. Obviously your attention was on your husband. Was the
17 attack on him just a sort of one-off or were people
18 trying to keep getting at him?
19 A. Well, when I was with my husband, no-one touched him
20 then, when I got to him.
21 Q. I am trying to get the impression from you of how long
22 the attack on him might have lasted.
23 Do you think it was just like that and over and
24 people left him alone, or what?
25 A. I couldn't say. You know, I think I froze. At that
33
1 time, you are not doing a headcount or looking. You
2 know, you just want to help -- I just wanted to help my
3 husband.
4 Q. When you went over to him, can you remember who else was
5 about? Was there a crowd around him or what?
6 A. I can't be sure, but I think the crowd was still there,
7 but they didn't touch me or ...
8 Q. All right. We know that the police took the statement
9 from you on 27th April.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How soon after all these events was that? Was it in the
12 morning of the 27th or the afternoon or what?
13 A. I think it might have been the afternoon. I think my
14 husband got out of hospital in the afternoon, so I think
15 it was shortly after that.
16 Q. Right. How were the police? Were they careful in
17 taking this statement?
18 A. I can't recall.
19 Q. If we go to page [41225], there is what looks like
20 a joint statement, which goes over for another couple of
21 pages after this, which we see comes from the CHA.
22 Do you remember contributing to this?
23 A. I have no recollection. You know, a lot had happened in
24 that time.
25 Q. Okay.
34
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you saying you didn't or you just can't
2 remember whether you did or not?
3 A. I just can't remember. I'm sorry.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: I think you know that one of the reasons this
5 Inquiry is being held is to try to get to the bottom of
6 what the police did and whether they acted quickly
7 enough when the attack on both Robert and your husband
8 took place.
9 You have said at various stages you thought the
10 police could have done more. Can you help us with what
11 you think the police did and what they should have done?
12 A. Well, if the police jeep was in the town centre, you
13 know, when I seen it, why couldn't they have got out and
14 maybe fired a shot or just something to help us? You
15 know, we were just left -- I feel we were just left, you
16 know.
17 Q. Is that because you don't remember or you weren't aware
18 of any police doing anything?
19 A. I wasn't aware of them doing -- the only police officer
20 I can safely say I seen that night was the one that came
21 over and told me to put D in the recovery position.
22 I'm sorry.
23 Q. Do you want some water?
24 A. I'm sorry for crying.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Sorry. It's my fault. I don't have any more
35
1 questions for you. It may be that other people do.
2 Thank you very much.
3 A. Thank you.
4 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair?
6 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
7 MR ADAIR: Thank you, Chairman. Witness E, just dealing
8 with the last portion of your evidence about the police,
9 what your view was about the police that night and their
10 action or inaction, now I think what you have told us is
11 that, really, why didn't they fire a shot or try to
12 disperse the crowd by firing a shot.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that really what the criticism is of them, to try to
15 disperse the crowd?
16 A. Why -- you know, I feel nothing, you know, towards the
17 police. I don't feel angry or -- you know, because
18 I have had to live with this for 12 years.
19 Q. I understand that. If I am upsetting you, and subject
20 to the Chairman, would you let us know if you are happy
21 to continue?
22 A. I am okay. I am okay.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: If you feel you want a break, just say so.
24 A. No. It is okay. I just want to get it over with.
25 MR ADAIR: The last thing I want to do is upset you,
36
1 Witness E.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Just so the Inquiry is clear, according to you, as you
4 made your way down Thomas Street towards the junction of
5 Market Street --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- there was nothing going on that alarmed you?
8 A. Nothing.
9 Q. So as you walk down Thomas Street, you do not see, for
10 example, a group of people poking their heads round the
11 corner --
12 A. No.
13 Q. -- in a suspicious manner?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If there had been a group of people poking their heads
16 round in a suspicious manner, can we take it you would
17 have seen that?
18 A. I can't say if I would have seen it.
19 Q. Was there anything to stop you seeing a group at the
20 bottom of the street?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Am I right in saying that it was not until you actually
23 got to essentially the very bottom of Thomas Street
24 before anything untoward happened?
25 A. Yes.
37
1 Q. If your evidence is correct, Witness E, there had not
2 been any forewarning of anything untoward going to
3 happen until the attack happened?
4 A. The attack happened, yes.
5 Q. As you describe, I think, at one stage, would you agree
6 with me, I think you described at the trial, when -- you
7 gave evidence at the trial of Marc Hobson. Is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You described the attack; that it seemed like a split
11 second, that the attack happened in a split second.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do I understand -- and I will come back in a moment, if
14 I may, to how people ended up where they did -- it
15 was -- did you see your husband being knocked to the
16 ground?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But you saw him on the ground?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After this, what seemed like a split second, at the
21 mouth of the junction?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you go immediately over to him?
24 A. I can't say. I think maybe I froze for a minute and
25 then went to help him, you know. I can't say I went
38
1 straight to him. It took maybe a few minutes or ...
2 Q. Well, a few minutes is a long time.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you say you went over to him as quickly as possible?
5 A. As possible, yes.
6 Q. Is it fair -- and this is the impression I'm getting
7 from your evidence -- to say that from there on,
8 virtually all your concentration was on looking after
9 your husband?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Understandably.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was unconscious at that stage?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your awareness, as, again, I think you said at the
16 trial, as to who was in the immediate area around you is
17 very much subject to the fact you were concentrating on
18 your husband?
19 A. My husband, yes.
20 Q. Who was there, whether it be police, whether it be
21 a crowd, you really can't say at this point because of
22 your concentration on your husband?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So, subject to your observation that at some stage later
25 on a policeman we know came over and I think told you to
39
1 put your husband in the recovery position --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- you can't assist us really as to when or if other
4 policemen were on the screen dispersing the crowd,
5 trying to stop the attack on Robert Hamill or anything
6 like that, because you were concentrating on your
7 husband?
8 A. Yes. I was concentrating on my husband.
9 Q. I understand.
10 A. The only police officer I seen at the time was the
11 police officer that came over and asked me to put D in
12 the recovery position.
13 Q. I understand.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: That was because his coming to you drew your
15 attention to him?
16 A. Sorry?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: That was because his coming to you drew your
18 attention to him?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR ADAIR: Did he, in fact, suggest you put D, your husband,
21 in the recovery position.
22 A. Yes, I think so. I am not sure, but I think he did.
23 Q. I understand.
24 Now, can you help us, Witness E, with -- you were
25 asked this by Mr Underwood, but I just want to explore
40
1 it a little more. We know that as you come down
2 Thomas Street, you are veering right to go over to
3 Woodhouse Street very slightly. It is a very slightly
4 staggered junction. You were actually with Robert and D
5 at the junction when the attack occurred?
6 A. No. They were a few steps in front of us.
7 Q. Subject to a few steps?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How did they end up some distance up to the left?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Could it be that they had run up that way?
12 A. No. Why would they run up Market Street when we had
13 just to go straight across the road?
14 Q. That's why I am asking you.
15 A. You know, we were heading straight across the road to
16 get home.
17 Q. So as far as Robert Hamill is concerned, did you see any
18 of the attack on him at all, any of the kicking on him
19 at all?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you absolutely sure about that?
22 A. Well, I can't be sure now. You would need to refer to
23 my statement.
24 Q. What's your recollection now? I mean, I take it that's
25 not something you would forget.
41
1 A. Well, it is something --
2 Q. There are many things, Witness E, you forget?
3 A. There are some things you try to forget. There are some
4 things you try to put to the back of your head. You
5 know, I had three babies in the house at the time, three
6 young children, one of whom was a chronic asthmatic and
7 in and out of hospital. I was petrified going anywhere
8 because of my name, in case anyone said, "Oh, that's
9 that girl". So there are some things you do try to
10 bury.
11 Q. The reason I am asking you is that you did say in your
12 statement that you saw the crowd kicking Robert Hamill.
13 A. Then you are going to have to refer to my statement.
14 I am sorry. I can't remember.
15 Q. But today, you are saying you don't remember?
16 A. I can't remember now, no.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: When you made your statement, were you saying
18 what you could remember?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR ADAIR: Witness E, I don't think anybody is suggesting
21 Robert was not kicked, by the way, in case you think
22 that's what I am suggesting to you.
23 A. I understand that there, but ...
24 Q. I want to ask you just a little about your progress down
25 Thomas Street, Witness E. You came out of
42
1 St Patrick's Hall --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- along with your husband, D, along with Robert and
4 along with F?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Had you seen, in St Patrick's Hall, Maureen McCoy?
7 A. I can't recall seeing Maureen.
8 Q. Do you know Maureen McCoy?
9 A. I knew her just to say, "Hello".
10 Q. Had you seen, in St Patrick's Hall, Colin Prunty?
11 A. I can't recall seeing Colin.
12 Q. The four of you then walk down Thomas Street?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you meet Maureen McCoy or Colin Prunty anywhere down
15 Thomas Street as you made your way down towards
16 Market Street?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you absolutely certain about that?
19 A. Positive.
20 Q. Did you see Maureen McCoy or Colin Prunty in
21 Thomas Street?
22 A. I can't recall seeing them.
23 Q. At any stage?
24 A. At any stage.
25 Q. Did you see them at any stage out in Market Street?
43
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or, just so we are clear, did you see Maureen McCoy or
3 Colin Prunty at any stage that night at all?
4 A. Well, I didn't -- you know, I didn't see them in the
5 hall or anything, you know, but I can't recall seeing
6 them in St Patrick's Hall.
7 Q. Did you see them anywhere that night?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The final thing I wanted to ask you about was the
10 clothing, Witness E.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You have told us that Robert was wearing a black leather
13 jacket.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you have told us that your husband, D, was not
16 wearing a black leather jacket.
17 A. I can't recall him wearing a black leather jacket.
18 Q. Is there any doubt about that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You did, when you were being -- do you remember being
21 talked to by the Inquiry team, if I may put it that way?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. During the course of your questioning by the Inquiry
24 team, did you suggest to them that D was wearing
25 a leather jacket?
44
1 A. I can't recall. You know, until I looked at my
2 statement, and then I knew it was a navy and cream top,
3 a striped top.
4 Q. Do you accept --
5 A. Yes, they might have said, but I can't recall, you know,
6 whether I said he -- but when --
7 Q. But your recollection today -- if we leave it at this,
8 your recollection today is that the only person wearing
9 a black leather jacket was Robert?
10 A. Robert.
11 Q. Now, Witness E, you know, and I am not going to go
12 through the various accounts that have been given,
13 because Mr Underwood has already done that in relation
14 to the suggestion that the people who initially provoked
15 whatever occurred were the people who were coming down
16 Thomas Street. As I understand it, you simply deny that
17 any of that happened.
18 A. That certainly wasn't me or anyone in my group.
19 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
20 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
21 MR McGRORY: If you please, sir, I have some questions.
22 Witness E, my name is McGrory and I act for the
23 Hamill family.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. I want to make it very clear to you, before I ask you
45
1 any questions, that the Hamill family are in total
2 agreement with your evidence that none of your group did
3 any of the things alleged of them by these people,
4 either Mr Jones, who says he was looking out the window,
5 or Mr Woods, his girlfriend's brother, both of whom
6 claim that Mr Woods was struck by someone in a leather
7 jacket.
8 Do you understand where I am coming from?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, I want to turn to this issue of whether or
11 not D might have been wearing a leather jacket. Okay?
12 You were interviewed in November 2006 by the
13 Inquiry?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. This topic came up?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, the context in which this topic came up was when it
18 was first suggested to you that Mr Jones had observed
19 Mr Woods being assaulted by someone in your group
20 possibly.
21 A. Possibly.
22 Q. Possibly.
23 A. No-one in my group attacked anyone.
24 Q. Absolutely. I am coming at this from exactly the same
25 point of view as you, but that someone in a group, who
46
1 was wearing a leather jacket, assaulted David Woods.
2 Now, when this was first raised with you back in
3 November 2006, you gave some answers. Would you accept
4 that those answers might -- that your recollection might
5 have been better then than it would be perhaps today?
6 A. Yes, probably.
7 Q. When you were asked about this, you said -- they are
8 discussing the allegations of Mr Jones.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. If we look at the first one -- and, of course, the
11 person who is giving the description of looking down on
12 them from the flat: medium build, short hair, black
13 leather jacket. Would that fit Robert? And your answer
14 was:
15 "Yes, but D, they both had leather jackets on".
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we have this on the screen?
17 MR McGRORY: I am sorry. We had this problem yesterday.
18 I am reading from a transcript and we don't have that
19 facility.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.
21 MR McGRORY: I am sorry we can't have it on the screen.
22 A. No problem.
23 Q. I will give everybody the page reference, which I should
24 have down. It is page 74 of the transcript of interview
25 of E with Joy Hopkinson and Michael Stephens. It should
47
1 be with the bundles that everybody has.
2 Now, you answered at that point:
3 "Yes, but D, they both had leather jackets on."
4 Do you remember giving that answer?
5 A. Honestly no, but, you know, if you refer to my
6 statement, on the night of the attack I clearly describe
7 my husband as wearing a screen navy striped top, you
8 know.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. That was the same day as the attack.
11 Q. Yes, of course. This was April. Would you expect him
12 to wear a jacket at that time of year?
13 A. My husband does not like wearing coats at any time of
14 year. He's just ...
15 Q. But he had a leather jacket?
16 A. I just can't say.
17 Q. I will just go on with what you told the Inquiry back in
18 2006. The interviewer said:
19 Question: "So they were both wearing leather jackets
20 and, as far as that's concerned, he wasn't wearing
21 a grey jumper?"
22 Answer: "No."
23 Then you went on to say:
24 Answer: "... D [was] ... in blue and with dark hair", this is
25 on page 75.
48
1 Mr Stephens said:
2 Question: "And a black leather jacket?
3 Answer: "Yes."
4 Do you recall that exchange?
5 A. No, I don't recall it.
6 Q. Then on page 76 of that interview, Joy Hopkinson, the
7 other interviewer, raised the issue of the leather
8 jacket again. She said:
9 Question: "But you recall that night -- are you
10 saying both men were wearing black leather jackets? Is
11 that what you are saying, E?"
12 Answer: "I think D had on his black leather jacket.
13 I'm really sure."
14 That would suggest, if you don't mind me saying so,
15 there is a possibility that D was wearing a black
16 leather jacket?
17 A. I can't recall. I just know, on the night of the
18 incident, the next day, when we gave -- when I gave my
19 statement to the police, I told them what D my husband
20 was wearing, and he had a cream -- a navy and cream
21 striped top on. That was maybe nine years after the
22 event.
23 Q. Of course.
24 A. I can't recall.
25 Q. Was it possible he was wearing both a blue top and
49
1 a leather jacket over it? Is that a possibility?
2 A. I can't say.
3 Q. No. It is just that when -- I want you to understand,
4 E, I am not in any way suggesting that your husband
5 could have been the person who struck this chap. I am
6 coming at this from the point of view that the family
7 holds that neither of them did anything wrong, nor did
8 anybody else at this point, but that the chap who is
9 describing this to the police is using a leather jacket
10 as a badge of convenience. That's what I am going to be
11 suggesting to him.
12 So is there any possibility that both of them could
13 have been wearing leather jackets?
14 A. I can't recall. I honestly can't say.
15 Q. I know you cannot say now whether or not he was wearing
16 a leather jacket, but would you accept that, in view of
17 those answers you gave in 2006, where you appeared to be
18 at first pretty sure he was wearing a leather jacket,
19 that is a possibility he was wearing a leather jacket?
20 A. Yes, it may be, but I can't be sure.
21 Q. Now?
22 A. Now.
23 MR McGRORY: No. Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
25 MS DINSMORE: When you left St Patrick's Hall, you left with
50
1 your husband and with F?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Robert Hamill?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So that was the four of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is your recall, was there anyone else on Thomas Street
8 at that stage?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn't observe any other couples.
11 A. I think there was a couple in front -- you know ...
12 Q. In front of you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Had you any exchange with them whatsoever?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did your group stop at all and speak to anyone?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever leave the company of your sister?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Well, as you were sojourning down Thomas Street, was it
21 you and your sister chatting and Robert and your husband
22 chatting?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So at all material times, the whole sojourn down
25 Thomas Street you were with your sister?
51
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If your sister had indicated to Maureen McCoy, "Don't go
3 down there", could that have been done in any way out of
4 your presence, ie were you separated from her at all?
5 A. No.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Dinsmore, the witness has said this
7 already.
8 MS DINSMORE: I am happy to move on then.
9 You will accept that you were not attacked?
10 A. I was not attacked, no.
11 Q. And that what ensued was in a very, very short space of
12 time, a complete flash?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There was no forewarning that you could see?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Basically, what you did then was went to the aid of your
17 husband?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And no-one attacked you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So there was some measure of control to ensure that
22 there was some protection around which meant that you
23 were not attacked or your husband was not further
24 attacked on the ground. Isn't that right?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a matter of inference for us rather
52
1 than the witness, I think.
2 A. I don't understand what the lady is saying.
3 MS DINSMORE: All I am saying to you is you were aware of at
4 least one policeman.
5 A. When my husband was attacked -- had already been
6 attacked.
7 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood.
9 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
10 MR UNDERWOOD: I just want to go back on the interview and
11 the black leather jacket question.
12 The position about the interview was, I think, that
13 you were interviewed at quite some length by the Inquiry
14 team --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- and that the transcript of the interview was given to
17 your lawyers?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. A statement was then drafted by the Inquiry based on the
20 transcript?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That, too, was given to your lawyers to check --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- to make sure it reflected what you wanted to say, and
25 you then signed it with advice from your lawyers. Is
53
1 that right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. I just want to read into the transcript for your comment
4 what you said about the black leather jacket in the
5 interview.
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Can I just read it first of all and then get from you
8 your evidence about it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's all we need to deal with.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Joy Hopkinson said:
13 Question: "But you recall that night -- are you
14 saying both men were wearing black leather jackets. Is
15 that what you are saying, E?"
16 Answer: "I think D had on his black leather
17 jacket, I'm really sure."
18 Question: "Because I am looking at your statement, E.
19 Sorry to keep going backwards and forwards."
20 Answer: "Yes."
21 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir. Can Mr Underwood tell us where he
22 is reading from?
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Page 76. So sorry:
24 Question: "So, in your statement, dated 27th April
25 1997, at page 9096, you've given a description as to
54
1 what Robert and your husband was wearing. Have you got
2 your statement there?"
3 Answer: "My husband was wearing a pair of blue
4 jeans, a navy and white shirt, and I think it was a coat.
5 Maybe he hadn't. It must have been just Robert then in
6 the leather coat."
7 So that's the full context of the answer that you
8 were taken to earlier on.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, what's your recollection now about whether your
11 husband had a black leather jacket?
12 A. I cannot be sure. I'm being honest, I cannot be sure.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. I can't ask you to do any better.
14 Those are the only questions I have, sir
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. You are
16 free now to go.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed.
18 A. Thank you very much, all. Thank you.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 MR UNDERWOOD: I know Mr Adair has a point he wants to
21 raise.
22 MR ADAIR: I think I mentioned yesterday -- lest I forget,
23 sir, in relation to the hair colouring of Robert Hamill,
24 I didn't want to bring up anything on the screen for
25 obvious reasons, but the page is 01049 where you will
55
1 see the hair colouring. I don't want them brought up on
2 the screen.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: I know I will be asked to break in about
4 five minutes if I start another witness.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Let us have our break now. Ten minutes.
6 (11.45 am)
7 (A short break)
8 (11.55 am)
9 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Witness F.
10 WITNESS F (sworn)
11 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Hello. I am Ashley Underwood. I am Counsel
13 to the Inquiry. I will be asking questions. Some other
14 people may ask some questions at the end of it, but I am
15 the one doing most of it.
16 You look jolly nervous. Are you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What I am going to do is ask you to look at some
19 statements and identify that they are your statements.
20 All right?
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Can we look at [81361]. If we just flick through this
23 to the end. If you just have a look while we are
24 flicking through. Is that the statement you have made
25 for us?
56
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Is it true?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. Can we have a look at another statement, which is at
5 [09098]? Again, if we could flick through that, is that
6 the statement you made to the police on 27th April 1997?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Then, finally, there is one at [41225] that I want you
9 to look at. If we again just flick through it, now this
10 seems to be a joint statement typed up, made by you,
11 your sister and her husband. Do you remember anything
12 about this?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. Sorry. I should have asked you again about the police
15 statement. Was that true, the one that we looked at
16 before?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you want to go back to it? All right.
19 You don't remember anything about this one?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. Could we have the standard model up on the
22 screen, please, the night model? Thank you. If we need
23 to look at your statements, we will do, but the first
24 question I want to ask you about these events really is
25 how good is your memory about the events of
57
1 27th April 1997?
2 A. Quite good.
3 Q. What I want to try to do is to get you to tell us what
4 you remember from that night without going back to your
5 statement and so on. If we have to look back at
6 a statement, then we will. If you can't remember
7 something, then you tell me. If I am pushing you too
8 hard on a bit of memory that you think you just can't
9 answer, you tell me that. All right?
10 I think you are Portadown born and bred. Is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On 26th/27th April 1997, did you go to
14 St Patrick's Hall?
15 A. I did, yes.
16 Q. With whom did you go?
17 A. With my sister and brother in law.
18 Q. Do you know Colin Prunty and Maureen McCoy?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you see them there?
21 A. In St Patrick's Hall?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No, I don't recall seeing them.
24 Q. Was Robert Hamill there?
25 A. Yes.
58
1 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing?
2 A. Cream cords, cream top and a cream jacket.
3 Q. Do you remember what your sister was wearing?
4 A. A pair of black trousers, satin I think, and a jean
5 jacket.
6 Q. What about her husband?
7 A. A checked shirt and jeans.
8 Q. Could he have been wearing a black leather jacket?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you remember what Robert was wearing?
11 A. Robert was wearing jeans, a shirt and a black leather
12 jacket.
13 Q. Do you drink?
14 A. I don't.
15 Q. Does it follow you didn't drink on that night?
16 A. That's correct. I don't drink.
17 Q. I want to ask you first off, in respect of the events of
18 that night, about what happened when you were leaving
19 St Patrick's Hall. Do you recall how busy it was as
20 people were leaving?
21 A. Well, there was no taxis. You couldn't get any taxis.
22 So we decided to walk, because my sister had to get home
23 to let her babysitter home.
24 Q. I am pausing because people are writing this down.
25 A. Oh, sorry.
59
1 Q. It is all right. Don't worry. I just don't want to
2 appear rude by not asking anything else.
3 One of the things the Panel may have to try to work
4 out is how many people might have walked up from
5 St Patrick's Hall and across to Woodhouse Street.
6 Can you give us any impression of what else was
7 going on as you were leaving? Do you think other people
8 had realised that there were no taxis available and that
9 they were likely to walk up?
10 A. I couldn't say. It is just the four of us decided to
11 walk on home.
12 Q. Okay. Did you see anybody else doing that same walk?
13 A. No.
14 Q. We know, because we have heard from Colin Prunty and
15 Maureen McCoy, that, in fact, they did walk up there.
16 Did you see them doing that?
17 A. I don't recall seeing them.
18 Q. All right. If we turn this model round to the right, we
19 can see down Thomas Street from a position just outside
20 Eastwoods Clothing. If we hold it there, we can look
21 down.
22 Now, this does not show St Patrick's Hall because,
23 of course, there is a bend of the road, isn't there, in
24 Thomas Street? Do you remember, did you stay on the
25 St Patrick's Hall side of the street as you were walking
60
1 up or did you cross over or what?
2 A. No, we stayed on the same side.
3 Q. Pretty much at the end of Thomas Street, as we see it on
4 this model, we see the area around the British Legion.
5 Did anything happen around there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What Ms McCoy told us is that she and Colin Prunty
8 caught up with your group, because she says she and
9 Colin Prunty were obviously walking behind you,
10 according to her evidence, and that you and your group
11 were standing at about the British Legion and looking up
12 the street, looking up towards where this photograph was
13 taken from, because there were some people peeking round
14 from the top. Do you recall that?
15 A. No, I don't recall that.
16 Q. She says you said, "Don't go down there. There is some
17 people at the top", or words to that effect. What would
18 you say to that?
19 A. I don't recall that happening.
20 Q. We know what happened a little later on was going to be
21 very distressing. You told us earlier that you have
22 a good memory of parts of this.
23 Can you help the Panel about this: if you had had
24 that discussion, is that the sort of thing that's likely
25 to have stuck in your mind, do you think?
61
1 A. I would say it would have, yes, but I don't recall that
2 happening, nor seeing anything.
3 Q. Other people may suggest that the group that you were
4 with had something to do with the start of the fight,
5 and you understand that, I think, because you have been
6 shown some statements of other people.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I will ask about those in detail a bit later, so you can
9 give us your comments on them, but what I want to ask
10 you about at this stage is how you are coming to this
11 evidence.
12 Are you here to tell us the truth or are you here to
13 cover up something which people you were with did?
14 A. I am here to tell the truth.
15 Q. You say then there was no stopping at the
16 British Legion. Can you describe how your group was?
17 Was it you two girls together and the men together or
18 were you with --
19 A. Us two were together and the two boys were in front.
20 Q. Can you tell us, after all this time, how far in front
21 they were?
22 A. I couldn't be honestly sure. I would say about four or
23 five steps in front of us.
24 Q. What was the atmosphere? Were you jolly, quiet,
25 boisterous, what?
62
1 A. We were jolly, because we had a good night, and, in
2 fact, we were coming down discussing what we were going
3 to make.
4 Q. I am sorry. I didn't catch that.
5 A. We were happy. Me and my sister were discussing what we
6 were going to make Robert to eat when we got down to my
7 sister's house.
8 Q. Tell us about Jamesons. Did you have any impression of
9 what sort of place that was?
10 A. Well, normally any person -- Catholic person in
11 Portadown would know to get past it as quietly and as
12 quickly as possible.
13 Q. Okay. If we swing round on this model to the left and
14 hold it about there, please, did something happen at the
15 junction then?
16 A. We just got down past the junction and then the crowd
17 just come from nowhere.
18 Q. Okay. We can swing this all the way round. It goes
19 round 360 degrees. If we just stop it there perhaps.
20 You say you got -- how far did you get before this
21 crowd turned up, do you think? If you want us to move
22 this round further, then, of course, do.
23 A. I think I would need to refer to my statement where
24 I was at.
25 Q. I am just trying to do the best I can with your memory
63
1 at the moment.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From your memory, you were crossing the road? You think
4 you were actually getting across the road, do you?
5 A. Just -- I would say -- can I use that?
6 Q. Yes. Are you happy with this amount of the view or do
7 you want it turned round a bit more?
8 A. Just come on, on down a wee bit. To here, we were
9 about.
10 Q. If we can swing it round a bit more.
11 A. Just coming round here.
12 Q. All right. We can give you the ability to mark on here,
13 if you want. Would you like to do that? If we can do
14 a screen shot.
15 A. Sorry.
16 Q. It will take a moment. Don't worry. Now, if you want
17 to mark on here where you think you had got to. All
18 right. Thank you very much.
19 Now we see there is a Land Rover there, which we
20 will hear evidence about later, but did you see
21 a Land Rover?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recall where you were when you first saw it?
24 A. I'm not 100% sure, but I know I seen the Land Rover
25 sitting there.
64
1 Q. Did that give you any comfort or did you have any
2 particular response to it?
3 A. You always feel safe when you know that the police jeep
4 is there.
5 Q. Do I take it from that that you didn't think the police
6 would be antagonistic to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. So, going back to the events, you say
9 a crowd came from nowhere. Are you able to help us at
10 all about this crowd, how big it was?
11 A. I would say around 30 to 40.
12 Q. Uh-huh. Making a noise?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Okay. When you say it came from nowhere, are you really
15 unable to say whether it came from the left or the
16 right?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. What can you recall happening next?
19 A. The next thing I remember is our Robert lying on the
20 ground and them kicking at his head.
21 Q. Did you see how he got down on the ground?
22 A. No, I can't recall.
23 Q. Right. Can you help us about whether that might have
24 been because there were people between you and him or
25 just that you didn't see it?
65
1 A. You will need to refer to my statement. I think there
2 was people there in front. Just couldn't get to him
3 straightaway.
4 Q. Did you see what happened to your sister's husband?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you help us about whereabouts you saw Robert go on
7 to the street? Is it on the piece of the scene here
8 that we can see or do you need to move it round more?
9 A. Where Robert was lying?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I need to move it round more.
12 Q. Okay. To the left?
13 A. Stop. Around here.
14 Q. Again, if we can do a screen shot, please. We need to
15 give you the facility to mark on it. Okay. I think you
16 can use your pen now if you want to.
17 A. Could you go on round a wee bit?
18 Q. Of course?
19 A. Round about here.
20 Q. Again, we will have to wait a minute.
21 A. Sorry.
22 Q. It is not your fault. It takes time from going from the
23 view to be able to use the pen. That's all. There you
24 go. You can use it now, if you like.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Pause there, please.
66
1 MR UNDERWOOD: We are saving these as part of your evidence,
2 you see.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: From what you told us, you were walking down
5 the right-hand side of Thomas Street, the right-hand
6 pavement past Jamesons. What you have just shown us
7 here is that somehow or other Robert Hamill has gone
8 over to the left, obviously away from where he wanted to
9 go up into Woodhouse Street.
10 Can you help us about how he might have got over
11 there to the left?
12 A. I couldn't.
13 Q. When you saw him on the ground, did you see anybody
14 kicking or attacking him in any other way?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell us what you remember?
17 A. I remember them --
18 Q. Would you like a glass of water?
19 A. (Witness shakes head).
20 Q. If you want a break at any time, just say so?
21 A. I remember them kicking at his head and shouting "Die,
22 you Fenian bastard".
23 Q. I know how difficult this is. Can you remember how many
24 people were doing that?
25 A. There was a whole crowd there.
67
1 Q. If I give you numbers, ten or so, what would you say?
2 A. More I would say maybe.
3 Q. Where were you?
4 A. When I seen him lying, I run over to him and he wasn't
5 moving.
6 Q. Now, by the time you got to him, were they still
7 kicking?
8 A. As I was running over to him, they were still kicking at
9 his head, shouting, "Die, you Fenian bastard".
10 Q. Were you worried about your own safety?
11 A. No. I just wanted to get to him.
12 Q. By the time you got to him, were they still kicking at
13 him?
14 A. Yes. Some of them were still kicking.
15 Q. So some had stopped, had they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you any idea why they had stopped?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see any police around at that stage?
20 A. There was just the police jeep.
21 Q. No -- did you see any policemen out on the ground?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So you got to him. I am sure we can find you a tissue,
24 if you want. You got to him?
25 A. Yes.
68
1 Q. What did you do?
2 A. I lay over him and then I took my coat, my jacket off
3 and put it under his head.
4 Q. Was anybody still trying to attack him then?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you looking around you or were you concentrating on
7 him by that point?
8 A. I was concentrating on Robert.
9 Q. Tell us what state he was in.
10 A. He wasn't moving. He was just lying there.
11 Q. Could you see any injuries?
12 A. There was a big graze on the back of his head.
13 Q. Was he bleeding?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did your jacket get blood on it?
16 A. No, not that I know of, no.
17 Q. Were you able to use it ever again?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why was that?
20 A. It's just the memory of what happened to him.
21 Q. Were you aware of anybody trying to get people away from
22 the crowd that was attacking Robert at any point?
23 A. I don't understand.
24 Q. We have heard from Mr Prunty. You were not here. What
25 Mr Prunty said is he waded in and tried to pull people
69
1 off who were attacking Robert. Were you aware of that?
2 A. I can't recall.
3 Q. All right. We have also heard that police were trying
4 to pull people off who were trying to attack him. Were
5 you aware of that?
6 A. There was no policemen there.
7 Q. You didn't see any policemen?
8 A. (Witness shakes head).
9 Q. But you didn't see Mr Prunty either?
10 A. (Witness shakes head).
11 Q. Can you give us any sort of timescale for how long you
12 think people were kicking?
13 A. I couldn't say. I would have to refer to my statement.
14 Q. If you want to. At the moment, I am just interested in
15 what you can remember. Is your answer then you can't
16 remember?
17 A. (Witness nods).
18 Q. Did you go directly over to Robert Hamill when you saw
19 him being attacked?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At any stage, did you see what happened to your sister's
22 husband?
23 A. No. I just seen him lying on the ...
24 Q. Sorry?
25 A. Sorry. I just seen him lying on the road.
70
1 Q. So at some point you saw him lying on the road, did you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you help us again with this model about where you
4 saw him? Again, we will need to give you control. Do
5 you need to move it to the left or right at all?
6 Just tell us whether it needs to go to the left or
7 right to start with. Then we need to give you control.
8 A. Left.
9 Q. Go to the left. If the model doesn't help you, we can
10 go to a map, if that's any good.
11 A. Yes, can you go to a map?
12 Q. Let's look at the map, shall we? Can we go to the
13 police vehicle positions map?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you say where he was in relation to
15 Robert Hamill?
16 A. Can I show you, like, just ...
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.
18 A. Robert was over here then and D was here.
19 Q. Closer to you from where you were first standing?
20 A. No -- yes. Robert was over here and D was here.
21 Q. Compared with where you had started from, do you mean?
22 Between where you had first been at the junction and
23 where Robert was, your brother-in-law ended up. Is that
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
71
1 Q. We have the map here. Again, if we can give you control
2 of this, would it help you to be able to mark on here?
3 Can you see where we are on this? At the bottom is
4 Thomas Street, looking up.
5 A. Will I mark it here?
6 Q. Please. Right. So would you have had to walk past that
7 point to get to Robert?
8 A. I don't understand what you mean.
9 Q. If I have got it right, you started off somewhere near
10 Number 7 Home Bakery, did you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Robert I think ended up near the central reservation.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you have had to walk past the point you have just
15 marked in order to get to Robert? Do you follow me?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: You would have to walk round that corner.
18 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Is it possible to put
19 where Robert was on this map?
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. I should have done that
21 before. Can you help us by marking on this map where
22 you think Robert ended up?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure if this goes as far as the
24 photograph goes.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: It is the danger of technology, I think.
72
1 THE CHAIRMAN: That's more or less opposite Instep.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: So you didn't see your brother-in-law on the
3 ground when you went over to Robert, first of all.
4 Would that be right?
5 A. I can't recall. I just automatically ran to Robert.
6 Q. Fair enough. Right. So let's go back to the position
7 then. You are on the ground with Robert. You say you
8 didn't see any police. Did any police come and help you
9 at all with first aid?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you sure?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Do you remember the ambulance arriving?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did anything else happen that you think the Panel ought
16 to know about between the attack and the ambulance
17 arriving?
18 A. Well, when I put my jacket under Robert's head, I ran
19 over to a police jeep and banged on the side of it for
20 help.
21 Q. Right. Why did you do that?
22 A. To get help.
23 Q. Was anybody attacking anybody at that stage?
24 A. No, but Robert wasn't moving and I needed somebody to
25 help him.
73
1 Q. So the help you wanted was first aid or ambulance, was
2 it?
3 A. Or telling me what to do.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I was wrong just now. I have looked at my
5 notes. She did say or she did show it roughly opposite
6 Instep.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. If you see some boxes with LR1, LR2 and
8 LR3 on this map, can you see where they are?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Those are -- they may or may not be the positions where
11 the Land Rover was at various stages. There will be
12 some evidence that LR3 is the position where the
13 Land Rover was while all this was going on. Can you say
14 anything about that?
15 A. Yes. It was in around that vicinity.
16 Q. Okay. Now, which doors did you bang on? Was it the
17 back doors or the driver's door or the passenger door?
18 A. The side of the jeep.
19 Q. The side facing opposite Number 7 Bakery, do you think?
20 A. Facing down -- the way it is sitting at the side of the
21 jeep.
22 Q. Which side is what I am getting at. The driver's side
23 or the passenger's side?
24 A. The driver's side.
25 Q. Did you see anybody in it?
74
1 A. No, I couldn't see whether there was anybody in it or
2 not. I just banged on it.
3 Q. Was Robert on the ground with his head on your jacket at
4 this stage?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was Maureen McCoy there?
7 A. I don't recall seeing Maureen McCoy.
8 Q. She told us she also lent a hand, not at the same time
9 as you did. I am just interested to see just how upset
10 you must have been, whether you saw her.
11 A. (Witness shakes head).
12 Q. All right.
13 So you banged on the doors. Did anything happen?
14 Did anybody get out?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What did you do after that?
17 A. I was still squealing for help and ran back to Robert.
18 Q. Was there a crowd around still or had everybody gone, or
19 what?
20 A. The crowd was still there.
21 Q. What was the atmosphere? Can you recall? Were people
22 shouting? Was it aggressive?
23 A. I can't recall. I know they were still there.
24 Q. All right. So did you just go back and carry on looking
25 after Robert?
75
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did an ambulance eventually arrive then?
3 A. Yes. There was a wee policeman shouted "There is
4 an ambulance" -- we were squealing for help, me and my
5 sister. He shouted, "There is an ambulance on its way".
6 Q. Was that a short policeman with glasses?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was he somewhere close by you or not?
9 A. No, he wasn't close by me. I think he was more nearer
10 my sister.
11 Q. Okay. Then, when the ambulance did come, what was going
12 on? Was there still a crowd around?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it noisy? Were people being aggressive?
15 A. I can't recall.
16 Q. Who went in the ambulance?
17 A. Myself, Robert, my sister and my brother-in-law.
18 Q. Was there anybody else?
19 A. I couldn't say. I would need to refer to ...
20 Q. All right. Do you remember telling the ambulance crew
21 what had happened?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. If you can't remember, you can't remember. Do you
24 remember hearing anybody else telling the ambulance crew
25 what had happened?
76
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, I told you I would come back and give you the
3 chance to comment on some statements made by other
4 people about how all this happened and I am going to do
5 that now. Do you need a break before we do that?
6 A. No. It's okay.
7 Q. I want to start with page [09111]. This is a statement
8 made by somebody called William Jones. He lived in
9 a flat above Jamesons Bar. What he says is:
10 "On Sunday morning ... I was at home along with my
11 girlfriend ... At approximately 2.00 am I heard loud
12 voices coming from the direction of the British Legion
13 area of Thomas Street. I looked out of my window which
14 overlooks the bottom of Thomas Street onto
15 Market Street, I saw three or four men running down
16 Thomas Street towards Market Street, they were in the
17 middle of the road."
18 Was any of your group running down the road?
19 A. None of our group was running in the road.
20 Q. Was there anybody else running in the road while you
21 were there?
22 A. I can't recall if there was anybody running down.
23 Q. Then he says:
24 "Also in this group of men there were three women."
25 Again, did you see a group of three or four men and
77
1 three women in Thomas Street?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Then he describes the men. The first one he describes
4 as:
5 "Approximately 5'10", medium build, dark short
6 hair, he was wearing a black leather jacket which was
7 waist length, and black trousers..."
8 Now, was Robert about 5 foot 10?
9 A. I couldn't say what size he was.
10 Q. Would you say he was medium build?
11 A. Medium, medium, medium. Yes, probably.
12 Q. Dark haired -- sorry -- dark, short hair?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What would you say his hair was like then?
15 A. Robert had fair hair.
16 Q. All right. You have already told us about his jacket,
17 of course. Then the second person is described as:
18 "Light build, dirty fair hair short."
19 Would that describe your brother-in-law at the time?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How would you have described your brother-in-law in
22 1997?
23 A. He is dark haired.
24 Q. Dark haired?
25 A. (Witness nods).
78
1 Q. This witness has that person wearing a grey jumper with
2 a pattern all over it and light-coloured blue jeans.
3 Did you see anybody wearing a grey jumper with a pattern
4 all over it in Thomas Street?
5 A. No.
6 Q. He gives ages for those people. I will not bother you
7 with those. If we go to number (3), which is about four
8 lines from the bottom, he says:
9 "Number (3) approx 5'10",
10 stocky/well built, blond/fair hair shaved into side and
11 back and brushed back on top. He had a full face. He
12 was wearing a pale blue shirt, dark tie, black
13 trousers..."
14 There is some reason to believe that might be
15 a description of Colin Prunty. You are clear, are you,
16 that Colin Prunty was not with you?
17 A. I am clear he was not with me.
18 Q. If we go over the page [09112], about halfway down this
19 passage there is a line that starts towards the
20 right-hand side. It is:
21 "I then saw the person that I have described as
22 number (1) ..."
23 That's the man with the black leather jacket:
24 "... running down Thomas Street towards
25 Market Street on the Jamesons Bar side, as he
79
1 approached the junction of Thomas Street/Market Street
2 he hit out with his right arm and appeared to connect
3 with a person who was standing at this junction. The
4 assault appeared to be on this person's face, it was at
5 this point I realised that it was my girlfriend's
6 brother who was the victim of this assault."
7 What this man is describing is a group walking down
8 and the man in the black leather jacket starts a fight
9 by hitting out at a person who is coming the other way,
10 up Thomas Street
11 Q. Is it possible that's what happened?
12 A. No, that's not what happened. Nobody in our group said
13 or done anything.
14 Q. Is it possible that you, chatting with your sister about
15 what to cook, could have missed the start of the fight?
16 A. No, no. Us four definitely didn't say anything to
17 anybody or provoke anything.
18 Q. Okay. If we go to page [07496], this is part of
19 an interview of the man who was described in the last
20 statement as having been hit. He is called David Woods.
21 If we -- again, I am not going to magnify any of this
22 because I am going to turn over the pages quite quickly.
23 About halfway down, he starts by saying:
24 Answer: "I was walking up the town. I turned up
25 [Thomas Street] to go home and then into because I live
80
1 down the [blank]."
2 Question: "Yes. That's where Jamesons Bar is."
3 Answer: "Yes. I was walking up past Jamesons Bar
4 and --"
5 Question: "On the same side of the street as
6 Jamesons Bar?"
7 Answer: "Yes."
8 Question: "Okay."
9 Answer: "And I heard people shouting you orange
10 bastard. That was the sound as I came up from the
11 town."
12 Now, is it possible anybody in your group shouted
13 that?
14 A. There was nobody in our group shouted anything.
15 Q. If anybody had shouted that, would you have heard it or
16 were you so engaged in chatting to your sister that you
17 were shut off from what was going on?
18 A. I am sure I would have heard if somebody was shouting
19 that.
20 Q. Okay. He is asked:
21 Question: "Did this come from behind you or in front
22 of you?"
23 Answer: "This was coming from in front of me."
24 Question: "So these people were actually coming down
25 Thomas Street to meet you?"
81
1 Answer: "They were at, outside the Legion bar,
2 I was outside Jamesons Bar."
3 So what he is describing there is quite
4 a long-distance shouting match, him outside Jamesons,
5 the group outside British Legion. Again, do you have
6 anything to say about that being possible?
7 A. No, it's definitely not possible.
8 Q. He is asked again:
9 Question: "Right and what did you hear them saying?"
10 Answer: "Orange bastards, up the IRA."
11 Question: "Right who was saying this or how many
12 people were in this group?"
13 Answer: "There were about three fellas and two
14 girls."
15 Question: "And two girls. Right did you know any
16 of the group concerned? Did you know them by name?"
17 Answer: "No."
18 Question: "You didn't. Right were they directing
19 that comment at you?"
20 Answer: "Yes."
21 Question: "And what happened?"
22 Answer: "I stood there."
23 Question: "You stopped?"
24 Answer: "I stopped. I was afraid."
25 Question: "You were afraid. Were you going to have
82
1 to pass them?"
2 Answer: "Yes."
3 Question: "Right so these people came down the
4 street and said this or directed this comment towards
5 you?"
6 Answer: "Yes."
7 Question: "Did they know you?"
8 Answer: "No."
9 Question: "It is just I am wondering how they knew
10 what religion you were."
11 Answer: "They must have assumed I was from the
12 town."
13 Question: "They assumed. Right okay. So there is
14 two women and three men?"
15 Answer: "Yes."
16 Question: "Was it men or boys?"
17 Answer: "Fully grown men."
18 He goes on to describe the relative size. If we go
19 over to [07500], the first question is:
20 Question: "They were. Do you remember which one of
21 of the men said this or what he looked like, David?"
22 Answer: "Yes. He had a blue shirt on and a tie."
23 Question: "A blue shirt and a tie on?"
24 Answer: "Yes."
25 Question: "You remember that quite well?"
83
1 He describes that a bit more. Then, if we go over
2 to [07501], halfway down the page:
3 Question: "Right okay, tell me what happened."
4 Answer: "The other man with him came running at me."
5 Question: "What was he dressed in?"
6 Answer: "He had a black coat on."
7 Question: "Do you know what type of coat it was?"
8 Answer: "A leather coat."
9 Now, what he is describing there, then, is somebody
10 who could have been Colin Prunty, according to the
11 description, and a man with a black leather coat or
12 jacket, and it is the man with the black leather jacket
13 who attacks him.
14 That, of course, is quite like what is said in
15 Mr Jones' statement. So there are these two people who
16 say that the attack starts with the man in the black
17 leather jacket hitting David Woods.
18 Now, of course, the Panel has to hear from these
19 people and it is going to have to form a view about
20 whether they are telling the truth about that or whether
21 their recollection is right about that or whether, on
22 the other hand, yours is.
23 Is there anything else you would like to say about
24 that to help the Panel with that?
25 A. In what way? We never done anything.
84
1 Q. If Robert Hamill had started it, if he had been the man
2 in the black leather jacket and he had started this off
3 by hitting somebody, would you be telling that to the
4 Panel?
5 A. Yes. If he had started it. But we never done anything.
6 The four of us never done a thing.
7 Q. There is one other document I would like to you look at
8 about this, if you would. That's at page [01038]. This
9 is a letter written by a man who lived down by the
10 British Legion. What he says is:
11 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
12 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
13 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
14 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,
15 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and
16 I will walk where the f*** I like'."
17 Now remember that Maureen McCoy has told the Panel
18 that you were one of a group of two women and two men
19 and that you were standing by the British Legion near
20 this man's flat, and that you told Maureen McCoy not to
21 walk any further. That's what she says. You see there
22 is some consistency between what she says about that and
23 what this man is saying.
24 I want you to search your memory as best you
25 possibly can, please, and tell us do you think you might
85
1 have done that?
2 A. I definitely did not say anything to anybody.
3 Q. All right. This man goes on here:
4 "At this he", that's the man who just swore,
5 "shouted to the fellas, 'Do you want a fight?' This was
6 shouted about two maybe three times before the crowd
7 at the bakery responded."
8 So his version then is that there is a stand-off, if
9 you like, for a bit, but that the provocation comes from
10 the group by the British Legion.
11 What do you say about that? Could that have
12 happened?
13 A. No, it definitely didn't happen.
14 Q. He goes on to describe how that escalated into a fight.
15 Does it follow from what you have just told me that
16 that's not what happened? Is this your evidence: the
17 fight did not start because Catholics outside the
18 British Legion provoked it?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. If we look about half the way down here, there is
21 a sentence starting on the left-hand side:
22 "... With not one ready to throw a punch, until
23 another man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran
24 between the both and punched the one facing the town,
25 ran off in the direction of St Mark's Church.
86
1 "The one who received the blow to his face then
2 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after
3 the man who had thrown the first punch."
4 So what he is describing there is that one of the
5 Catholics gets hit and the person hitting him runs off
6 up towards St Mark's Church and one of the Catholics who
7 got hit ran off after him.
8 Now that would explain, if -- if -- the Catholic who
9 had got hit was either your brother-in-law or Robert and
10 they had run off after the man going towards
11 St Mark's Church, how both of them ended up to the left,
12 away from Woodhouse Street. Do you follow?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that the explanation? Do you think that's possible,
15 that they did run after somebody?
16 A. They never ran after anybody.
17 Q. Going on after that, there is a paragraph which starts:
18 "The police tried to break up the small crowd
19 without siding with either side, trying to calm the
20 situation, but having no success they had to call for
21 more police to control the crowd."
22 Do I understand this right, that you did not see any
23 police doing that?
24 A. I never seen the police doing that, no.
25 Q. But at the same time, when you went to the Land Rover,
87
1 you didn't see police in it either. Is that fair?
2 A. No.
3 Q. There is only one version I want to put to you, which is
4 that -- again, I will not do this in detail, because
5 I want to summarise what four people say. They were
6 working in Jamesons Bar and they were closing it up for
7 the night.
8 What they say is rowdy Catholics shouting Catholic
9 slogans were coming down the street banging the shutters
10 of Jamesons. Can you comment on that?
11 A. Well, nobody in our group, and any Catholic would know
12 not to bang on anything coming past Jamesons Bar.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Right. Those are the questions I have for
14 you. As I said at the beginning, other people may have
15 some questions, but thank you very much.
16 A. Okay. Right. Thank you.
17 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
19 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
20 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
21 Witness F, do I understand that where you have
22 marked on the map -- remember the map you marked as to
23 where D and Robert were lying on the road and on the
24 snap shot -- remember the original snapshot we got --
25 first of all, is that where Robert was attacked?
88
1 A. I can't recall. You need to refer to my statement.
2 Q. Well, if you want to look at your statement, that's
3 fine, but just so -- for the moment, if we go from your
4 memory, is where you have marked on the map and/or the
5 snapshot, where Robert was attacked?
6 A. They were attacked at the bottom of Thomas Street.
7 Q. So then are you saying that they were attacked at the
8 bottom of Thomas Street but ended up where you have
9 marked?
10 A. I couldn't recall. It happened that fast.
11 Q. Right.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: An attack, of course, may move.
13 MR ADAIR: That's absolutely right, sir. That's why I am
14 saying -- so I am just trying to clarify, did the attack
15 then start at the bottom of Thomas Street and make its
16 way up to where Robert was found, or did the attack
17 start actually where Robert was found. If you can't
18 help us, that's fine.
19 A. I can't recall.
20 Q. Did you see the start of the attack on Robert?
21 A. I can't recall, because it was an awful experience to
22 see that. All I know, our Robert was lying on the
23 ground and I wanted to get somebody to help him.
24 Q. I understand. I am sorry to have to ask you some of
25 these questions, Witness F, but you will understand we
89
1 are just trying to find out what happened, and I don't
2 mean to distress you. I am sorry if it is distressing,
3 but we are trying to find out and, as best you can, can
4 you help us?
5 Did the attack move some distance up the street with
6 Robert in the middle of it or did the attack occur where
7 Robert ended up?
8 A. I can't recall. I couldn't say.
9 Q. Right. Does the same apply to D? You can't say
10 whether -- I don't think you saw really anything of the
11 attack on D, did you?
12 A. I just remember him lying on the road.
13 Q. Right. Do I understand that -- "directly", I think was
14 the word that was used -- directly, when the attack
15 occurred, you went straight over to try to help Robert?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You managed to get to Robert. He was on the ground at
18 that stage?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But he was still being attacked by a limited number at
21 that stage. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it a fair way of putting it that you don't know why
24 it is that the attack stopped, but something must have
25 caused it to stop. Is that a fair way of putting it?
90
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. But the attack did stop?
3 A. Yes. He wasn't moving.
4 Q. But the attackers, for whatever reason, whether it --
5 I think it is the position you can't say whether it was
6 Colin Prunty, whether it was a mixture of Colin Prunty
7 and the police -- for whatever reason, there was no
8 further attack once you knelt down beside Robert on the
9 ground and put your coat under him?
10 I am sorry to have to ask you again.
11 A. You need to refer to my statement. I don't know.
12 Q. Right. Well, I think really the only other thing I want
13 to ask you, Witness F, is, at some stage after you had
14 cradled Robert and put your coat on him, you ran over to
15 the Land Rover and banged the side. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You didn't see anybody in the Land Rover?
18 A. (Witness shakes head).
19 MR ADAIR: That's all I want to ask.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
21 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
22 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, I have a few short questions.
23 F, my name is McGrory. Do you want a break or can
24 you answer a few short questions?
25 A. No, it is okay.
91
1 Q. I represent the Hamill family, just so you are aware of
2 that. I want just to talk to you a little bit about the
3 descriptions of what people were wearing that night.
4 If I could just refer you to briefly the answer you
5 gave when Mr Underwood asked you that question at the
6 beginning of your evidence. It is to be found at 63.1
7 of this witness' evidence a little earlier.
8 Mr Underwood was asking you about the clothing. At
9 that point he asked you what D's (sic) husband might
10 have been wearing. You said a checked shirt and jeans.
11 Do you recall giving that answer earlier?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sorry. E's husband.
14 Now, in the statement you gave to the police on
15 27th April, which is to be found on page [09098] -- it
16 is really in the third page of that statement, [09100],
17 sorry.
18 At the end of the statement you gave on 27th April,
19 you described Robert Hamill as wearing a checked shirt
20 and that D was wearing a striped, short-sleeved top.
21 Could you have got a little bit confused when you
22 were speaking to Mr Underwood earlier, because you have
23 said that D was wearing a checked shirt to Mr Underwood.
24 Could it be possible it was Mr Hamill?
25 A. You would need to refer to my statement.
92
1 Q. Yes. Your statement simply repeats, if I may say so,
2 what you said on 27th April 1997. If I may suggest to
3 you, when you were interviewed, you had no recollection
4 then and you asked to be shown your statement when you
5 were interviewed by the Inquiry two years ago.
6 Do you have a clear recollection of what D was
7 wearing today?
8 A. No. You would just have to refer to my statement.
9 Q. You see, there is also a possibility, I would suggest,
10 that D might also have been wearing a leather jacket.
11 Are you able to contradict that suggestion? Are you
12 able to say that definitely wasn't the case?
13 A. D definitely wasn't wearing a jacket.
14 Q. But you are after saying to me you have no recollection
15 and that we would have to refer to your statement. So
16 with respect --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that was a question about what
18 Robert Hamill was wearing.
19 MR McGRORY: Yes, indeed. When you were interviewed in
20 November 2006 by the Inquiry -- do you remember that
21 day? It is just over two years ago.
22 A. (Witness shakes head).
23 Q. You don't remember?
24 A. (Witness shakes head).
25 Q. If I can suggest to you that on the eighth page of the
93
1 transcript of that interview you told the Inquiry that
2 you had no memory then of what people were wearing.
3 Do you remember telling the Inquiry that you had no
4 memory two years ago of what people were wearing?
5 A. I have to refer to my statement, because ...
6 Q. Yes. Is it the situation that in respect of any of the
7 clothing the only evidence you can give is to repeat
8 what was in your original statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR McGRORY: I think we can take the matter no further.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Green?
14 Cross-examination by MR GREEN
15 MR GREEN: Sir, just one question really. I think you said,
16 Witness F, that you couldn't remember the start of the
17 attack on Robert. Isn't that right?
18 A. That's correct, yes.
19 Q. You seemed to indicate that you went over to Robert very
20 swiftly after the attack that you saw happen start. Is
21 that right?
22 A. Could you repeat that?
23 Q. Well, did you go over to Robert whilst he was still
24 being attacked or did you only approach Robert after the
25 attack on him had ceased, or can't you remember?
94
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. You see, Maureen McCoy gave evidence to the Inquiry that
3 she was, in fact, the first person to approach Robert
4 after the attack ended. Do you think that's right or
5 not?
6 A. I can't recall ever seeing Maureen.
7 Q. You can't recall. She left at some stage to go over to
8 the Land Rover and she thinks that that might have been
9 when you went to Robert and assisted him.
10 A. I went to the Land Rover and banged on the side of it.
11 Q. As best you can remember, Witness F, was Robert, after
12 you went over to him and put your coat under him, from
13 that stage until the ambulance arrived, left alone at
14 any time?
15 A. There are some things I can remember and there are other
16 things stick in my head. I can't remember.
17 Q. You can't remember. Do you have any recollection of
18 Maureen McCoy being there at all?
19 A. No.
20 MR GREEN: Yes. Thank you.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you.
22 Questions from the Chairman
23 THE CHAIRMAN: When you did in your statement give
24 a description of clothing, was that what you could
25 remember then?
95
1 A. When I gave the statement?
2 Q. Yes. You made a statement in which you referred to
3 clothing.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you remember then what you were describing?
6 I don't mean can you remember now, but, when you
7 made that statement, could you remember the things that
8 you said you remembered?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: That's it now.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you very much. You are free now.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: It's over. Thank you very much.
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I confess to massively overestimating
16 the time it will take to deal with contentious
17 witnesses. I will reschedule other witnesses
18 accordingly.
19 In the result, that's all the evidence I have to
20 lead today. I do apologise.
21 Tomorrow, we have one witness and one witness only.
22 He is D. You will recall, I think, that he was rendered
23 unconscious quite early on. I think his witness
24 evidence is likely to be even shorter. I know that, for
25 various practical reasons, you need to rise at
96
1 12 o'clock tomorrow and conclude business. I would
2 apprehend, to be frank, that a 10.30 start would be
3 adequate for dealing with this matter
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You seem to be in no danger of overrunning.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10.30 then.
7 (1.02 pm)
8 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
9
10 --ooOoo--
11 I N D E X
12
13
WITNESS E (sworn) ................................ 1
14 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 36
15 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 45
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 50
16 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 53
17 WITNESS F (sworn) ................................ 56
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 56
18 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 88
Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 91
19 Cross-examination by MR GREEN ............. 94
Questions from the Chairman ............... 95
20
21
22
23
24
25
97
