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Hearing: 21st January 2009, day 6
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Wednesday, 21st January 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 6
1 Wednesday, 21st January 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (10.34 am)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry we are rather late in starting.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Not at all, sir. Before I call Ms McCoy,
7 I know Mr Adair wants something clarified.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
9 MR ADAIR: I just want to clarify -- and I think I probably
10 know the answer already; I have talked to a number of my
11 colleagues about this -- as we are in a Tribunal as
12 opposed to in a criminal trial, where, for example, in
13 a criminal trial, as you know, I would make suggestions
14 to witnesses controverting what they say and say
15 "I suggest to you that didn't happen; this happened",
16 and so on, it seems to me that would unnecessarily
17 prolong the Inquiry and it is not a necessary part of
18 the function I am to play.
19 While I may obviously, in relation to witnesses
20 whose credibility is in issue, deal with some matters of
21 credibility, it would not be my intention to directly
22 say to them, "I suggest that did not happen". I think
23 that's the feeling of most of the representatives.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: There is just this difficulty about it: it
25 helps us, where there is a point in issue, to hear what
1
1 both sides on that point of conflict say about it. If
2 a case is put and then another witness, first having
3 said A, says about that incident B --
4 MR ADAIR: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: -- we may not have the same assistance that
6 we should have if the first witness has version B put to
7 him to see what he says about it.
8 MR ADAIR: Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Because it may not always be simply saying,
10 "No, no, A is right, B is wrong". He may say, "Now you
11 say this, there may be a third version, C".
12 I think it is desirable to put a case. I don't mean
13 a lengthy cross-examination, but so at least we know
14 what the person whose evidence is to be the subject of
15 challenge from other evidence has to say about it.
16 MR ADAIR: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I am willing to listen to what anyone else
18 may say about this.
19 MR ADAIR: It is just for clarification, sir, rather than,
20 at the end of the Inquiry, to find, "This was not
21 controverted by X, Y and Z, so, therefore, we find as
22 a fact". I thought it better to clarify it.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: If you put yourself in the position of the
24 three of us who are having to make a decision and we
25 find one said this on the point and the other said that,
2
1 we may not know how the first person would have dealt
2 with the issue, whereas, when the second person comes
3 along, we have the first version that can be put to him,
4 or, again, there may be something that the witness has
5 not dealt with that could, when another witness is going
6 to be asked about it -- for similar reasons, we need to
7 know what the first person would say about it, if asked.
8 It is all part of the assistance which the fact-finders
9 need.
10 To that extent, I think the common law approach of
11 putting your case really should apply. As I say, I am
12 not inviting lengthy cross-examination, but simply so we
13 do know what both sides say, but, as I say, if others
14 wish to say something about this, I am very happy to
15 listen to what they say.
16 MR ADAIR: No. Thank you for the clarification, sir.
17 That's really what I was raising.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
19 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir. I think the only contribution
20 I would have to make to that discussion would be that it
21 would be an ease of advocates to be aware that the rule
22 that might apply in a criminal case, that, if a certain
23 scenario has not been put, puts the advocate in
24 a position where he cannot rely on that scenario at
25 a later stage, does not apply.
3
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I think while in a court you may be told,
2 "Sorry, you had your chance to put that and you
3 haven't", I think that's not the best way of arriving at
4 the truth. I think it is to hear -- not to shut anyone
5 out from giving any conflicting version, but at the same
6 time to hear what someone else has to say, or, if the
7 other person has said nothing about the incident, but on
8 your instructions is in a position to say so, to have it
9 put to him so then we see whether he is in agreement or
10 disagreement with what later comes out.
11 MR McGRORY: Yes. That is helpful, sir.
12 MS DINSMORE: Mr Chairman, I am much obliged to you for your
13 very helpful clarification. I, too, found myself
14 somewhat in the dilemma that Mr Adair found himself in.
15 I welcome your clarification, as it would be my
16 intention, I would hope, in a measured and brief way to
17 pursue a cross-examination of a testing of the evidence
18 within the ambits that I am in an Inquiry and not in
19 an adversarial scenario and not in an accusatorial
20 scenario, but, rather, an investigatory scenario.
21 I am obliged.
22 I will no doubt be appropriately chastised if
23 I overstep the mark, but at least now, Mr Chairman, I am
24 obliged that we do feel we have the freedom to probe.
25 I put it no higher than that and I am obliged to you,
4
1 Mr Chairman.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sure it will be realised we are not
3 a jury and perhaps might cotton on more quickly than
4 some advocates might think a jury would. I may be
5 wrong.
6 MS DINSMORE: I am very much obliged to you, Mr Chairman.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to say anything, Mr Underwood?
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Only this, sir. I would not wish to hold my
9 learned friends from putting any case they wish to put
10 or test. There are two ways in which we are already
11 likely to know what one person may say about another
12 when they are later called.
13 The first is we have, of course, interviewed
14 everybody whom we are going to call, so I hope we have
15 a very good idea of what they might say about a witness
16 who has come before.
17 Secondly, my friends are very kindly giving me
18 lines of questioning for every witness which tends to
19 put the thrust of what their witnesses might later say
20 anyway, but, subject to that, of course, I appreciate
21 there will be quite a lot else that may emerge from
22 later witnesses which it would be helpful to see aired
23 in advance.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: What I hope to avoid is, when witness
25 number 10 says something that witness number 1 can deal
5
1 with, not to have to hunt through many pages of
2 statements, but to see on the transcript what the
3 position is.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you.
5 With that, I will call Ms McCoy, if I may.
6 MS MAUREEN PATRICIA MCCOY (sworn)
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
9 A. Morning.
10 Q. My name is Underwood. I am counsel for the Inquiry.
11 As you may have just gathered, although I will be
12 asking most of the questions, some other people may ask
13 some after that.
14 Can I ask you your full name, first of all?
15 A. Yes. It is Maureen Patricia McCoy.
16 Q. I know you have made a statement to us and a statement
17 to the police. Can I just identify those on the screen
18 for a start? Can we look at page [80862]?
19 If we can just flick through this statement fairly
20 quickly on the screen. Is that a statement you made for
21 the Inquiry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then could we just have a look to the statement you made
6
1 to the police, please, which we find at page [09106]?
2 This seems to have been made on 9th May. Again, if we
3 could just flick through the pages, I just want you to
4 confirm to us it is your statement. Is it indeed your
5 statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Again, was that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can I ask you, before we get into any detail about the
10 quality of your memory at various times, when you made
11 that statement in May 1997, were the matters vivid in
12 your mind?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What about now? How is your recollection?
15 A. Certain things I remember, you know, particularly things
16 on that night, you know, very vividly and other things,
17 you know, are beginning to fade now, you know.
18 Q. Let's see how we get on.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Can we go back to the statement you made for us then,
21 please, [80862]? If I can highlight paragraph 3. As
22 you know, we are interested in the night of
23 26th/27th April 1997. You tell us you went to
24 St Patrick's Hall with Colin Prunty.
25 A. Uh-huh.
7
1 Q. You tell us what you were wearing there. Can you
2 remember what he was wearing?
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. You go later in the statement to tell us that you bumped
5 into three people that we are calling D, E and F.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Do you know who I am talking about when I say that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. D was the man in that group. Do you remember what he
10 was wearing?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Let me just try to get as much as I can from your memory
13 rather than going to the statement, if I possibly can.
14 You went to St Patrick's Hall on the night. We know
15 that.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. You saw D, E and F there, I think.
18 A. Not in the venue.
19 Q. Right. Okay. Take me through that. Whom did you see
20 there that is of any significance afterwards? Anyone?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Right. So you were there with Colin Prunty?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Can you help us about what time you left?
25 A. Well, I was just reading my statement briefly there. So
8
1 it was between 1.15 and 1.30-ish. We were unable to get
2 a taxi, so we decided to walk.
3 Q. I know it is 12 years ago. How firm are you about the
4 time it would have been?
5 A. I wouldn't be now. I was just recalling it in the
6 statement.
7 Q. Can you recall why it was, when you made your earlier
8 statements, that you were able to say what the time was?
9 Do you remember checking the time when you left?
10 A. No, but I think it was that the dance had finished, you
11 know, that particular -- you know, the bar had closed.
12 The dance had finished, so that's usually around
13 1.00-ish.
14 Q. You just told us you tried to get a taxi but couldn't.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Can you describe the scene in the lobby where the phones
17 were for the taxis?
18 A. There was quite a few people waiting in the lobby, and,
19 really, the basic decision to walk on home was because
20 of the crowd that was actually in the hall. It was
21 a big crowd that night and the taxis just weren't coming
22 quick enough.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say there was a big crowd in the
24 hall, what were they doing?
25 A. In the main dance hall itself, there was still a large
9
1 crowd left, and in the hall, where you would have phoned
2 the taxis, there was maybe half a dozen, a dozen people,
3 you know, waiting for a taxi.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: So if you had waited, you were going to be in
5 a queue for the taxi. Is that it?
6 A. You certainly were, yes.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you have any impression about whether
8 anybody else had taken the same decision as you and was
9 leaving rather than queuing up?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How much had you had to drink?
12 A. I was just reading my statement as well. We had visited
13 a few bars before we went up to St Patrick's Hall. So
14 I would have drank the wee half bottles of cider. So,
15 I don't know, ten of those, maybe, over the whole
16 evening.
17 Q. Tipsy?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. What about Colin Prunty?
20 A. Well, Colin was a big, tall -- a big fellow. He would
21 normally be able to drink quite a bit of alcohol and you
22 wouldn't really know. I would say, if I had ten drinks,
23 he probably had ten pints.
24 Q. Can you recall what sort of state he was in?
25 A. Again, you wouldn't know with Colin, because he is --
10
1 you know, he could hold his alcohol intake very well.
2 Q. So you started to walk out. What did you see as you
3 went out? Was there anybody else about?
4 A. Not that I can recall.
5 Q. Quiet?
6 A. Uh-huh, yes. Quiet-ish, yes. You know, most of the
7 people were still in the dance hall.
8 Q. If we look at the night model, which we will have up on
9 the screen in a moment, and we pan round to look down
10 Thomas Street -- just hold it there, please -- we can
11 see -- I don't know whether you have seen this model
12 before. It is a reconstruction from photographs that
13 were taken at the time?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. If you look right down the end of Thomas Street there,
16 you can see it curves. We know St Patrick's Hall is
17 round the curve from there.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Can you tell us, as you got to the point where we see
20 Thomas Street curving off to the right, did anything
21 happen?
22 A. That was approximately where I had met D, E and F.
23 Q. What were they doing?
24 A. They were standing there. I think they were sort of
25 indecisive whether to go on down or not.
11
1 Q. Was Robert Hamill with them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So standing looking in a particular direction or talking
4 to each other or what?
5 A. Yes, well -- talking to each other, but looking down
6 Thomas Street.
7 Q. If Ms McCoy could have control of the screen, please,
8 and do a screen shot, I think there is what looks like
9 a pen. It is a clever pointer and you can actually
10 write on this screen. If, once the screen has got
11 smaller, you could mark for us, as best you can --
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. -- where they were standing?
14 A. I would say probably, you know, between that building
15 and this is the British Legion here -- yes -- or this
16 part.
17 Q. No, the British Legion is further up on the left.
18 A. This is the British Legion here?
19 Q. This is Eastwoods where you are. This is taken from
20 outside Eastwoods.
21 A. Oh, sorry. About here.
22 Q. Okay.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Can someone describe in relation to premises
24 where that would be?
25 MR UNDERWOOD: That's the other side of the British Legion,
12
1 is it?
2 A. This? Where I just put the --
3 Q. Uh-huh, where you just put the cross.
4 A. That's the British Legion, on the same side of the
5 street as the British Legion.
6 Q. I see. So you caught up with them while they were
7 standing looking down the street?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Was anything said?
10 A. One of the party said, you know, "Don't go down there,
11 Maureen. There's a crowd down in the corner".
12 Q. Do you recall which of them said that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you recall what the initial we are giving to that
15 person was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. In your statement you say F.
18 A. Right. Okay.
19 Q. We can put it on a piece of paper and give it to you, if
20 you like.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It is a bit unwieldy to do it this way, I know, but
23 there are reasons.
24 A. Uh-huh, yes.
25 Q. Which one of the three was it or which one was it. F?
13
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just explain so that the public may not
4 be mystified?
5 Some witnesses have been given anonymity, but, in
6 order to have the evidence intelligible and to let the
7 witness understand who is being asked about or to know
8 who the witness is speaking about, sometimes a name or
9 names will be written on a piece of paper and the
10 witness can see about whom he or she is being asked, so
11 that we, the Panel, know. That's all there is to it.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: I was going to ask you how she seemed.
13 A. Quite frightened, agitated. I don't think she particularly
14 wanted to go on down, you know.
15 Q. Do you have any recollection of how the others appeared?
16 A. No. My main conversation was with F.
17 Q. Okay. Did you look to see what they were looking at?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you see?
20 A. I seen a crowd on the corner of the bakery.
21 Q. If we can go back to the main view of this and pan it
22 round to the left, if we pause it there, does this help
23 you to show where the crowd was?
24 A. Well, I'm assuming the crowd was here.
25 Q. Sorry. We need to do a screen shot so you can have
14
1 control of this again. It is my fault. Right.
2 A. Yes. They would have been on this street and looking
3 round the corner up Thomas Street.
4 Q. So what was happening? Were they all looking round or
5 were they darting back one at a time or what?
6 A. All looking round, as far as I recall.
7 Q. Can you recall how many there were of them?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was it one or two or was it --
10 A. No, it was more than one or two. It was maybe more than
11 half a dozen.
12 Q. What did you think was going on there?
13 A. At the time, I didn't -- I thought, you know, maybe just
14 a crowd coming home from a pub, but then I felt a wee
15 bit wary that they were hiding round this corner looking
16 up Thomas Street, but I wasn't fearful.
17 Q. Was there any noise, do you remember?
18 A. I can't recall.
19 Q. Okay. Had you ever done this route before on foot?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Had you had any trouble before?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Any concerns before?
24 A. Well, you are always a bit wary if you are walking
25 anywhere home late at night. It is not a normal
15
1 practice I would -- you know, I have done it before, but
2 not on a regular basis.
3 Q. Had you ever seen police Land Rovers in the area while
4 you were walking around at night before in this
5 crossroads?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. I want to play the day model for you. Again,
8 this is a reconstruction. It just gives us a view of
9 how somebody walking down Thomas Street might see
10 a Land Rover that was in that sort of position.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. I want to ask you what happened next, you having had
13 a look at that. Did you walk on down?
14 A. Uh-huh, yes.
15 Q. Why did you feel it was okay to walk down despite F's
16 concern?
17 A. Because of the position -- because the Land Rover was
18 there.
19 Q. So is it that you could see the Land Rover from where
20 you were standing?
21 A. I think I actually had seen maybe the Land Rover
22 before -- if I can recall, I think me and Colin might
23 have been on the other side of the road and walked over.
24 So we could see the Land Rover.
25 Q. Yes. So you might have been on the left-hand side?
16
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Do you remember -- again, it is my job to push your
3 memory as much as I can. You understand that. If you
4 can't remember, just tell me I am going too far.
5 Can you remember how much of the Land Rover you
6 could see?
7 A. I certainly seen the back view of it and the right-hand
8 side.
9 Q. If we scroll back on this model, a little further
10 back -- keep going -- stop it there -- this is just
11 a model. Nobody has given evidence about the accuracy
12 of it yet.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. If it turns out that the Land Rover was in the position
15 it is placed on this model, what we see is, if you were
16 walking down the right-hand side, you wouldn't have seen
17 the Land Rover until you are really underneath or
18 outside Jamesons?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Can you help us with precisely how you got down the
21 street? Were you on the right-hand side when you
22 walked, the left-hand side or the middle or what?
23 A. I was on the right-hand side.
24 Q. It is still your evidence, is it, that you could see the
25 Land Rover from back up near the British Legion?
17
1 A. I could see the Land Rover before I reached D, E and F.
2 Q. Fine. Do I understand, then, that it was the
3 Land Rover's presence that made you feel it would be
4 okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can I just ask: you have told us you had not seen any
7 Land Rover there before, but you had no particular fears
8 of this junction from your experience?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How was it the presence of a Land Rover comforted you?
11 A. Obviously there were police officers, you know, either
12 in it or in the vicinity, and if, you know, anything was
13 to occur, at least help would be nearby.
14 Q. You understand that in the course of the publicity
15 surrounding this Inquiry all sorts of statements have
16 been made about the degree to which some Catholics
17 didn't believe the police would help them.
18 Do I gather from that that you took it that the
19 police would help you if there was trouble?
20 A. Oh, yes, certainly.
21 Q. So you and Colin walked on?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. What about D, E, F and Mr Hamill? Do you know what
24 happened to them?
25 A. No. We walked on past.
18
1 Q. Can you then describe what happened as you got up to the
2 junction?
3 A. I remember the crowd coming out from the right-hand
4 corner.
5 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many people there might have
6 been?
7 A. Oh, maybe a dozen.
8 Q. What was their state? Were they running, walking, loud,
9 quiet?
10 A. Loud and aggressive.
11 Q. Shouting at you?
12 A. Yes. Well, not me personally probably, but, yes,
13 shouting.
14 Q. Shouting what sorts of things?
15 A. You know, the usual things that communities shout at
16 each other.
17 Q. Sectarian?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As far as you were concerned, you and Colin were on your
20 own at this point. Is that fair?
21 A. Well, me and Colin would have been on our own because we
22 didn't realise that anyone was, you know, at that time
23 they had decided to come behind us, you know.
24 Q. How many people were being aggressive towards you? Was
25 it a dozen or so, a couple of dozen?
19
1 A. Whoever was in the crowd, yes.
2 Q. Can you help us? Had you got across the road at all by
3 the time this happened or were you just at the end of
4 Thomas Street?
5 A. Just at the end of Thomas Street.
6 Q. Can we go to the standard map, please? Perhaps we could
7 go to map 2. That would be a bit better.
8 You may not have seen this map before. What we have
9 on the left-hand side is a bit of the close-up of the
10 junction. Tell us whether you are more comfortable with
11 this or one of the models about where you might have
12 encountered this.
13 If we see you coming up Thomas Street, by this stage
14 were you on -- I think you may have told me this
15 already, but I have forgotten -- the right-hand side?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You get to the junction. A crowd are coming from your
18 right. What happened then?
19 A. That's when the fighting broke out.
20 Q. Can you describe how it broke out? Was it an attack on
21 Colin Prunty or --
22 A. No, no. Well, I now know it was an attack on the people
23 that were behind us, which was D, E and F and Robert.
24 Q. I know you put this in your statement.
25 A. Yes.
20
1 Q. Again, do you understand that I am trying to get it from
2 your memory as best I can?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. So it went from them being aggressive to you, as you
5 thought, to fighting behind you?
6 A. I think they were being aggressive to whoever was -- you
7 know, myself and Colin and obviously who was behind us,
8 you know.
9 Q. It just felt personal, did it?
10 A. No, it didn't feel personal. It was a crowd out for
11 a fight, you know.
12 Q. Right. So how did you know that fighting had broken
13 out?
14 A. I can't recall.
15 Q. Okay. Did you turn round and see what happened?
16 A. No. I don't -- not as far as I recall. I remember just
17 running across to the left-hand side of the road.
18 Q. If we go back to the night model then, let's see. If we
19 pan round to the left, this is the doorway of Eastwoods.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Now, where did you go to from that pan we have just
22 seen?
23 A. I went into the doorway of Eastwoods.
24 Q. Okay. Now, while you were at the doorway of Eastwoods,
25 what did you see?
21
1 A. Well, in the doorway there were two other young women.
2 I could see someone being beaten on the road very badly.
3 Q. If we pan round to the right, can you tell us to stop
4 where you saw ...
5 A. I would say stop maybe somewhere.
6 Q. Again, can we hand control to Ms McCoy, please, and
7 a screen shot?
8 A. This probably isn't accurate, but this is within, you
9 know ...
10 Q. If you can give us just a mark roughly where you think.
11 A. I would say there, but it could be further up.
12 Q. While this was going on, can you describe how many
13 people you saw on that person?
14 A. Well, the only thing -- the way I described it at the
15 time was like a swarm of bees. It was a lot of people.
16 Q. What could you see of the person who was being attacked?
17 A. Nothing.
18 Q. But you could tell they were on the ground, could you?
19 A. Uh-huh. Well, I could tell that the crowd were
20 attacking someone.
21 Q. Low down or --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Right.
24 With their fists, with their feet, bottles or what?
25 A. Feet and fists, as far as I recall.
22
1 Q. I realise how difficult it must be to attempt to see how
2 long this took, but can you give us any sort of
3 impression about how long that attack lasted?
4 A. Well, you imagine it is a long time, but it was probably
5 a few moments, two, three, minutes.
6 Q. You tell us you didn't know any of the attackers. Have
7 you learned anything since which would allow you to
8 identify anybody?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you tell us how you and Colin Prunty became
11 separated? Was it simply you ran one way and didn't
12 know where he went or did he go a different way?
13 A. I know I ran one way. I ran over to Eastwoods just
14 purely to stay out of it. Colin, I don't know.
15 Q. So was your attention entirely on the person being
16 attacked?
17 A. I had been speaking to the two girls that were in the
18 hallway, the entrance with me and, you know,
19 witnessed -- I didn't know who was being attacked at
20 this time.
21 Q. You have described one of the girls in your police
22 statement, but I think what you are telling us now is
23 you can't now remember her description. Is that right?
24 A. Oh, yes.
25 Q. Okay. Was there any stage at which any one individual
23
1 attacked the person who was otherwise being attacked by
2 a group or was it always just a group as far as you
3 could see?
4 A. As far as I recall, it was a group.
5 Q. Uh-huh. Now, I am sure you appreciate one of the
6 interests of this Inquiry is to know when the police
7 officers got out of the Land Rover in relation to when
8 this fighting took place.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. While you were at Eastwoods and while you were either
11 talking to the girls or looking at this fighting, do you
12 have any recollection of police officers?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Then did there come a point where one of the girls did
15 something?
16 A. Yes. Again, I was reading my statement when I was ...
17 she became agitated as well and, as I say in my
18 statement, picked up or had a bottle and then proceeded
19 into the road.
20 Q. I have the impression from you that she had been, as it
21 were, quite sympathetic?
22 A. Yes, she was, yes.
23 Q. What did you get the impression had happened to her?
24 Had she decided to go and wade into the people who were
25 attacking or wade in and join the attack?
24
1 A. She wouldn't have been helping whoever was being
2 attacked.
3 Q. If we look at page [09108], in the middle of the page --
4 can you just highlight roughly the middle third?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Now, almost bang in the middle of that section there is
7 a sentence that starts:
8 "The blonde girl then picked up a Buckfast bottle
9 which appeared large in size ..."
10 Is that what we are talking about here?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "... and she ran out onto the Market Street towards the
13 group and she shouted out, 'Yous done my dad'."
14 Does that refresh your memory?
15 A. Well, I remember her running out on to the street.
16 Q. It goes on then -- this is your statement, of course, to
17 the police of May 1997:
18 "I then ran across the Market Street and stood near
19 to the Alliance & Leicester Building Society looking
20 towards the group ... I then saw a male person lying
21 unconscious in the centre of Market Street..."
22 If we can go back to the night model, please, the
23 Alliance & Leicester is opposite, just there. Is that
24 what happened, that you ran across to the
25 Alliance & Leicester?
25
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Why did you do that?
3 A. Fear probably. You know, just to get away from the
4 whole situation to nearer the Land Rover.
5 Q. Right. Is it right that you were then able to see a man
6 lying in the street?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How were you able to see him? Was it just that you had
9 a better view from that side or had the group dispersed
10 at that time?
11 A. The group had dispersed at that time.
12 Q. Any idea why?
13 A. Not that I recall.
14 Q. Had they completely dispersed? Was there any one person
15 in the attack on the individual?
16 A. Not that I recall.
17 Q. All right. Again, if Ms McCoy could have control of the
18 screen and do a screen shot, please, at this stage where
19 do you think this person was lying, if you can mark it?
20 If you can.
21 A. Uh-huh. God!
22 Q. If you can't, just say so.
23 A. No, I can't, no.
24 Q. Compared with where you were, can you remember which
25 side of him you were seeing? Was he lying on his face
26
1 or lying towards you or with his back towards you or ...
2 A. I recall later on in the evening he would have been sort
3 of sideways with his back, you know -- he would have
4 been looking downtown, you know.
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pause. Can you tell us roughly where
7 this person was who was lying on the road in relation to
8 where you had seen the blows and kicks?
9 A. This is very confusing, this. I am trying to think of
10 the distance from St Mark's Church, you know, down.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Without reference to the screen perhaps,
12 perhaps you could help the Chairman.
13 Was the person left lying in the position where you
14 had seen the attack --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- or --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. So you could see the person lying. Nobody
19 was around them, I take it.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could you see any liquid?
22 A. Not when I was standing at the Alliance & Leicester, no.
23 Q. Did you approach him?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did you see?
27
1 A. I saw a young man lying on his side with -- he wasn't
2 moving, with, as I now know, blood -- there was liquid
3 underneath him.
4 Q. Had you worked out who it was by then?
5 A. I thought it was Robert, but then E had said who it was.
6 Q. So E was around?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Standing up, running around, walking? Do you remember?
9 A. I think E had been over at D and had come over, you
10 know, across.
11 Q. D, we know, is the man who was in the group and was the
12 man who was not Robert Hamill.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. We also know he, too, was knocked down at some point.
15 Did you see that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So from the Alliance & Leicester you hadn't seen anybody
18 else apart from this man who was attacked. You go to
19 him. At that point was that the first notice you took
20 of E being around?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What did you do?
23 A. I sat with Robert.
24 Q. Sat with him, beside him or what?
25 A. Just behind him, you know. I could see his -- you know,
28
1 the side, the side.
2 Q. Did E or F come and take any care of him as well or not?
3 A. I remember E, just E, not -- I don't recall seeing F.
4 Q. What did E do? Did she help or did she just talk to you
5 or ...
6 A. She just asked would I stay with him until an ambulance
7 arrived.
8 Q. I am sorry. I am just watching pens.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: At that stage, did you have any impression of
11 what had happened to the crowd?
12 A. I could feel the crowd was behind me towards
13 St Mark's Church.
14 Q. So your back was towards the church, facing downtown?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Noisily, do you think?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's how you could feel them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Had you got any impression what had put them there?
21 A. Not as far as I recall, no.
22 Q. Could they have been pushed there by the police?
23 A. They could have.
24 Q. Did you see anybody else who you thought might be
25 Catholic at that point apart from E and F? Rather, you
29
1 just told us about E. I have not even asked you about F
2 yet.
3 A. No, I didn't see F. As far as I recall, Colin came over
4 at some stage.
5 Q. Right. I think you recall at some point a police
6 officer near you. Was it at this stage or some later
7 stage?
8 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. I do recall a police
9 officer, but I can't remember at which stage.
10 Q. Okay. If we have a look at page [00702], this is
11 a statement of one of the police officers who came up as
12 a back-up officer.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. If we go to the third sentence there, he says:
15 "Upon arrival at the scene I observed two male
16 persons lying on the Church Street bound direction of
17 High Street. I immediately tasked an ambulance. Number
18 one was a male dressed in a shirt and trousers. He was
19 semi-conscious and appeared to have a head injury.
20 Several people were attending this person one of which
21 I now know to be his wife. This man was on his back.
22 I now know this man to be D. I advised E to turn D
23 over. E and the people with her did so."
24 I am not suggesting you would have had anything to
25 do with that:
30
1 "The second injured male", and this seems to be
2 Robert Hamill --
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. --"was further up the road towards Saint Mark's Church.
5 This man was wearing a dark jacket. I now know this man
6 to be Robert Hamill. With Robert Hamill was a woman in
7 a white top. I now know this woman to be a cousin of
8 Mr Hamill. Mr Hamill was unconscious and having
9 difficulty breathing. He was being cradled by his
10 cousin who was on her knees on the ground. His head was
11 in an upright position. I requested Mr Hamill's cousin
12 to turn him over."
13 Now, can you help us with how that scenario fits
14 with what happened with you? Is there a point at which
15 F took over from you?
16 A. I can only imagine it was when Colin came over, you
17 know. I remember Colin, you know, taking me away, and
18 I can only imagine that F took over from there.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. But I went back over towards the building society.
21 Q. Fine. So if we go back to the night model, please, did
22 Colin, as it were, drag you away?
23 A. Not drag as such, no.
24 Q. Urge you to leave?
25 A. Yes.
31
1 Q. What sort of state was he in?
2 A. He was very angry.
3 Q. Apart from the people you told us who had been, as it
4 were, at your back --
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. -- and making noise, did you see any other people about?
7 A. I recall, you know, there was a few people coming up
8 towards St Mark's Church, but not an agitated crowd, you
9 know, people just who happened to come on the scene.
10 Q. Colin Prunty was very angry, you tell us. Did he appear
11 to be concerned to get you out of trouble or what?
12 A. Yes. Just to, you know, leave things to the -- whoever
13 was there, a police officer, an ambulance man. I can't
14 recall. We couldn't help Robert, so, you know ...
15 Q. I am just getting this. That's all. You had obviously
16 gone over to him, because you were concerned.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He was lying, I think you told us in your statement,
19 unconscious.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. There was blood coming out of him. Would you have left
22 him on his own?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. But have I got this right: you simply can't remember who
25 it was who was taking over from you?
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Again, have I got this right: there was no assistance
3 you could give Robert Hamill, all you could do was, as
4 it were, be by him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you went over to the Alliance & Leicester with
7 Colin Prunty. Did you stay there?
8 A. Yes, for a short period of time. I do recall the
9 ambulance arriving or leaving, whichever, with Robert.
10 Q. All right. Can you tell us what happened in respect of
11 aggression or fighting while you were over there? Did
12 anything else go on?
13 A. I recall a young man in the back of the Land Rover being
14 let out of the Land Rover and told to go.
15 Q. Okay. I will come back to that in a minute, if I may.
16 Any other generalised fighting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Any other attacks on anybody?
19 A. Not as far as I recall, no.
20 Q. Any shouting? Any aggression that fell short of attack?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Can we go back to your statement at [80869]? In
23 paragraph 25 you tell us that:
24 "F then came over to me and I saw a group of males
25 making their way down the town again from the direction
33
1 of St Mark's Church."
2 Is this the group you told us were at the back of
3 you?
4 A. I assume so, yes.
5 Q. You thought they were very angry. There is the quote
6 there in italics:
7 "I hope he dies, the Fenian bastard."
8 Is that part of the shouting you were telling us
9 earlier was going on behind your back while you were
10 with Robert Hamill?
11 A. It could be.
12 Q. You tell us you saw something to do with the ambulance,
13 whether it was the arrival or not. You certainly saw
14 Mr Hamill being taken into it?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Again, I will press your memory as far as I can, if I
17 may, about police officers.
18 Can you recall, by that stage, seeing any officers
19 at all?
20 A. I would have to go over my statement. I think I did,
21 but is there anywhere in the statement that I ...
22 I remember the police officers at the Land Rover at this
23 stage, a policewoman.
24 Q. Right. Is this to do with the person being let out of
25 the back?
34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. But there were certainly police officers at the
4 Land Rover at that stage.
5 Q. Right. The only reference in your statement -- we have
6 up on the page paragraph 23. Perhaps we could highlight
7 that.
8 This is while you were with Robert Hamill with your
9 back to the crowd. You remind yourself from your police
10 statement that you noticed a police officer standing to
11 your left. You couldn't describe him.
12 A. No.
13 Q. You say there you were upset and crying. I should ask
14 you: how were you?
15 A. Oh, very upset. It was a very distressing thing to
16 witness.
17 Q. Distressing to witness and frightening?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Come now, if we may, to the person being let out of the
20 back of the Land Rover. What was happening there? You
21 were at the Alliance & Leicester at this point, were
22 you?
23 A. Yes. It was after I had left Robert.
24 Q. If we can go back to the night model -- sorry to keep
25 going in and out of different scenes here -- if we pan
35
1 a bit to the right, was the Land Rover there or roughly
2 there or ...
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you help us with how accurate that is about the
5 positioning of it?
6 A. I would say that's pretty accurate, yes.
7 Q. Okay. When you say you were by the
8 Alliance & Leicester, were you by the side of it that we
9 can see or were you further up into Woodhouse Street or
10 where?
11 A. To the front where you can see.
12 Q. Right. So you had a pretty good view of the Land Rover
13 doors?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. What happened then with this person being let out?
16 A. I remember Colin saying to -- I am not sure if it was
17 the policewoman or policeman, "Why are you letting him
18 go?" and a young man was let out of the back.
19 Q. Was he still very angry?
20 A. Who?
21 Q. Colin Prunty.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In paragraph 29 of your statement -- we don't need to go
24 to it -- what you tell us there was you refer back to
25 your police statement to describe the policewoman as
36
1 blonde-haired. Do you have any recollection of her at
2 all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you join in asking him what was going on?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 Q. Did you see anybody else approach her apart from
7 Colin Prunty?
8 A. The policewoman?
9 Q. Uh-huh?
10 A. No, not that I recall.
11 Q. Because you appreciate the Inquiry has interviewed
12 everybody we could find and the lady we think was the
13 policewoman at the time who was doing this says she was
14 approached by two men. So you have no recollection of
15 seeing that happen?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Had you seen the man who was being released before that?
18 A. Oh, no. I wouldn't recognise him anyway, no.
19 Q. Can I press you further on what Colin Prunty said to
20 her? Did he say, "Why are you letting him go? He was
21 one of the attackers", or anything like that?
22 A. I certainly remember him saying, "Why are you letting
23 him go?" He was very angry that this young man was
24 being released.
25 Q. Did anybody take the policewoman's number, do you know?
37
1 A. Not -- well, I know I didn't, so ...
2 Q. Have I got it right that, by this stage, the ambulance
3 had taken Mr Hamill away?
4 A. I assume so.
5 Q. Or it was about that time, was it?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. What was the atmosphere like at that point?
8 A. Still very volatile, but, you know, things had calmed
9 down, you know. I think the main objective was to get
10 to the injured parties.
11 Q. I think that we are going to be hearing from a number of
12 police officers that there were police on the scene, and
13 the reason why the attackers were pushed up towards the
14 church was because the police formed a line and
15 physically moved them back. Is that possible?
16 A. I don't recall at all.
17 Q. No, but could it have happened without you seeing it?
18 Could you have been so busy looking after Robert Hamill
19 that you missed that?
20 A. I suppose it is possible, yes, but I don't recall seeing
21 it.
22 Q. When the man was being let out of the Land Rover, were
23 there any other police officers around the Land Rover or
24 in the Land Rover?
25 A. I believe, if I recall -- I am not sure if it says in my
38
1 statement -- there might have been a police officer
2 there as well, but it was really the policewoman that we
3 had been talking to.
4 Q. If you did see a police officer there as well, was that
5 officer outside the Land Rover or inside?
6 A. Outside.
7 Q. Can I take it you didn't see anybody else in the
8 Land Rover?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you, at any stage, see other police around, apart
11 from the one or two at the Land Rover?
12 A. Not that I recall, no.
13 Q. All right. Other Catholics. We obviously have D, E, F
14 and Robert Hamill, apart from you and Colin Prunty, of
15 course. Was there anybody else there that you saw that
16 either had come up from St Patrick's Hall or that you
17 recognised as being a Catholic?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, I know that you have been shown statements and
20 notes in respect of other people who give a different
21 account of how all this started. What I want to do is
22 get your reaction to some of those, if I may.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. There is a witness who says, if we look at page [01038],
25 and, again, if we can highlight the text -- thank you:
39
1 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
2 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
3 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
4 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner
5 bakery ..."
6 Just pausing there, that's quite consistent, by the
7 sound of it, with what F told you.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. "... to which the man replied, 'This is a free country
10 and I will walk where the f*** I like'."
11 Now, what do you say about that?
12 A. It could certainly have happened. I can only recall,
13 you know ...
14 Q. The likelihood is, though, if, as you say, F was talking
15 to you and to Colin Prunty, that the man who is replying
16 like that seems to have been Colin Prunty?
17 A. Uh-huh, it could well have been, yes.
18 Q. It goes on:
19 "At this he", that's the person who just said that,
20 "shouted to the fellas", who were up at the corner, "'Do
21 you want a fight?' This was shouted about two maybe
22 three times before the crowd at the bakery responded."
23 Do you recall that?
24 A. I don't recall any of that.
25 Q. If Colin Prunty had shouted up to the top of
40
1 Thomas Street, "Do you want a fight?" two or three
2 times, would that have stuck in your mind, do you think?
3 A. I don't believe we would have walked much further.
4 Q. Had you ever seen him in a fight before?
5 A. No. I don't recall.
6 Q. What's your reaction towards fights generally, or what
7 was it in those days? Did you like to watch them or ...
8 A. Oh, no. Avoid them at all costs.
9 Q. Right. Then it goes on:
10 "Then from this both sides started provoking each
11 other."
12 So what this witness is saying there is that there
13 is provocation from both ends, so the top of
14 Thomas Street and roughly where you told us you had been
15 stopped by D, E and F.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Again, have you any recollection of provocation of that
18 sort on each side?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay:
21 "The man that had been doing most of the talking
22 then walked out to the middle of the road, placing his
23 bottle to the ground..."
24 Did anybody in your group -- I say your group -- did
25 anybody in the D, E and F and Robert Hamill group, or
41
1 Mr Prunty, have a bottle, do you know?
2 A. I know Colin -- neither of us had. As for D, E and F,
3 I wouldn't imagine so. I don't recall seeing anything.
4 Q. All right:
5 "He raised his hands into the air and waved as he
6 repeatedly said 'Come on then'."
7 It follows, does it, you didn't see any of that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then this man says:
10 "Eventually one man stepped out from the crowd at
11 the bakery and shouted 'I'll take you then'. At this
12 point the ladies that were with the two men shouted for
13 them to stop and walk home."
14 This seems to be directed at the group of D, E, F
15 and Robert Hamill rather than you and Colin Prunty.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Did you hear anything of this?
18 A. No.
19 Q. "... But the provoking became worse until both men were
20 about a foot away and sizing each other up. With not one
21 ready to throw a punch, until another man broke from the
22 crowd at the bakery, ran between the both and punched
23 the one facing the town, ran off in the direction of
24 St Mark's Church."
25 That could have happened, presumably, without you
42
1 seeing it.
2 A. It could, yes.
3 Q. That could have been how the attack, as it were, started
4 behind your back?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "The one who received the blow to his face then punched
7 the one who was sizing up to him and ran after the man
8 who had thrown the first punch.
9 "Then one by one the crowd started to run in the
10 direction of the fight."
11 Again, is that all possible, as it were, behind your
12 back?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Then this goes on in the next paragraph:
15 "The police tried to break up the small crowd
16 without siding with either side, trying to calm the
17 situation, but having no success they had to call for
18 more police to control the crowd."
19 Do I understand your evidence right: you are saying
20 the police might have been there, might have been out
21 and doing things but you didn't see them? Is that fair?
22 If it is not, you say so.
23 A. I can't recall the police breaking up the fight that
24 I was witnessing when I was standing at Eastwoods.
25 Q. You are clear about that. The swarm of bees attack did
43
1 not involve any police officers?
2 A. No.
3 Q. The last but one paragraph there:
4 "One man was then brought to the landrover and
5 placed inside until the fight died down."
6 Again, you saw a man being taken out of the
7 Land Rover?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. I take it you didn't see him being put in?
10 A. No.
11 Q. "The ambulance arrived and stretchered one man away."
12 Just on that, you have told us, of course, you saw
13 Robert Hamill being stretchered into the ambulance. Did
14 you see anybody else go into the ambulance?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Then if we look at page [09111], this is
17 a Mr Jones, from whom we will be hearing next week, who
18 lived in a flat above Jamesons. What he says in this
19 is:
20 "On Sunday morning the 27th of April I was at home along
21 with my girlfriend ... At approximately 2.00 am I heard
22 loud voices coming from the direction of the
23 British Legion area of Thomas Street."
24 Again, what he is saying there is, in essence, that
25 the group that, as far as we can tell, must have been D,
44
1 E, F, Robert Hamill, and perhaps you and Mr Prunty, were
2 making a lot of noise by the British Legion area.
3 Again, would you like to comment on that?
4 A. I don't recall making any noise.
5 Q. "I looked out of my window which overlooks the bottom of
6 Thomas Street onto Market Street, I saw three or four
7 men running down Thomas Street towards Market Street, they were in
8 the middle of the road. Also in this group of men there
9 were three women."
10 Colin Prunty, D and Robert Hamill amounts to three
11 men and there is, of course, E, F and you
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. So in that sense, it could be a description of your
14 group.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Were they running? Was anybody running?
17 A. No. I remember walking with Colin down towards the end
18 of Thomas Street.
19 Q. Then he goes on:
20 "The man I have mentioned I can describe as
21 follows" -- I think that should be "men" -- "(1)
22 Approximately 5'10", medium build, dark short hair,
23 he was wearing a black leather jacket which was waist
24 length and black trousers ..."
25 Would you accept that was a description of
45
1 Robert Hamill on the night? It was a description of
2 Robert Hamill's clothing at least
3 A. Uh-huh, yes.
4 Q. "(2) Approx 5'8", light build, dirty fair
5 hair short, he was wearing a grey jumper which had
6 a pattern all over it ..."
7 Can you recall whether that was a reasonable
8 description of D on the night?
9 A. I'm not sure what he was wearing, but by the description
10 of his height and build, yes.
11 Q. Okay. He then gives ages for them. 24 to 26 for the
12 first and 26 to 28 for the second.
13 Have you any comment on that?
14 A. I am not sure what age D is, but I imagine that's
15 probably about right.
16 Q. Then number (3), which, if this group is your group,
17 would be Mr Prunty:
18 "... approx 5'10", stocky/well built,
19 blond/fair hair shaved into side and back and brushed
20 back on top. He had a full face. He was wearing a pale
21 blue shirt, dark tie, black trousers, the shirt was
22 tucked into the trousers he looked neat and tidy in
23 his appearance."
24 If we go over, [09112]:
25 "He was wearing black shoes. This man was
46
1 approximately 28 - 32 years old."
2 Would that be a fair description of Colin Prunty on
3 the night?
4 A. Again, I can't recall what he was wearing, but the
5 physical description, yes.
6 Q. He says:
7 "I cannot describe the females who appeared to be in
8 this company. I had these persons in my view for
9 approximately 20 seconds, they would have been 15 yards
10 away from me at the [furthest] point and approximately 5
11 yards at the closest."
12 Then, if we go down, still in this excerpt, roughly
13 the middle:
14 "I had never seen any of the persons which I have
15 mentioned here before. I then saw the person that
16 I have described as number (1)", which would be
17 Robert Hamill, if that's this group he is describing.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. "... running down Thomas Street towards Market Street on
20 the Jamesons Bar side, as he approached the junction of
21 Thomas Street/Market Street he hit out with his right
22 arm and appeared to connect with a person who was
23 standing at this junction."
24 Now, on this version then, if this is right, and if
25 this is your group --
47
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. -- then this would not have happened behind you, you
3 would have been part of the group that was running down
4 the street.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. There is the first blow struck by what appears on this
7 description to be Robert Hamill. Can you comment on
8 that?
9 A. As far as I recall, Colin and I were in front going down
10 Thomas Street. I don't recall any of that, no.
11 Q. There is another group of witnesses, and I will not put
12 all their statements to you in view of what you have
13 told us, but they were people employed in Jamesons Bar.
14 I think it is a fair summary of their accounts to
15 says that they believed that a number of Catholics were
16 coming down the street noisily, perhaps banging shutters
17 at Jamesons, and perhaps shouting sectarian chants.
18 Again, would you like to comment on that?
19 A. That certainly wouldn't have been the crowd I was with,
20 no.
21 Q. Then if we look at page [07496], this is part of
22 a police interview with a man called David Woods.
23 David Woods was the person who was described as being
24 hit by the first blow in that witness statement we were
25 looking at a moment ago.
48
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. If I could just take you to some parts of this to get
3 your comments. Can we highlight from, "So tell me what
4 happened", downwards, please? He is asked by the
5 police:
6 Question: "So tell me what happened as you were
7 walking up the town."
8 He says:
9 Answer: "I was walking up the town. I turned up",
10 and we have unnecessarily blanked this out to be
11 careful, "Thomas Street to go home and then into --
12 because I live down the [blank].
13 Question: "Yes. That's where Jamesons Bar is?"
14 Answer: "Yes. I was walking up past Jamesons Bar
15 and --"
16 Question: "On the same side of the street as
17 Jamesons Bar?"
18 Answer: "Yes."
19 If we go over the page -- I am going to take you
20 through the whole of this -- [07497]:
21 Question: "Okay."
22 Answer: "And I heard people shouting you Orange
23 bastard. That was the sound as I came up from the
24 town."
25 Question: "Did this come from behind you or in front
49
1 of you?"
2 Answer: "This was coming from in front of me," ie
3 down Thomas Street.
4 Question: "So these people were coming down Thomas
5 Street to meet you?"
6 Answer: "They were at, outside the Legion bar,
7 I was outside Jamesons Bar."
8 Question: "Right. And what did you hear them
9 saying?"
10 Answer: "Orange bastards, up the IRA."
11 Question: "Right who was saying this or how many
12 people were in this group?"
13 Answer: "There was about three fellows and two
14 girls."
15 Question: "And two girls right. Did you know any of
16 the group concerned? Did you know them by name?"
17 Over to [07498]:
18 Answer: "No."
19 Question: "You didn't? Right were they directing
20 that comment at you?"
21 Answer: "Yes."
22 Question: "And what happened?"
23 Answer: "I stood there."
24 Question: "You stopped?"
25 Answer: "I stopped. I was afraid."
50
1 Question: "You were afraid? Were you going to have
2 to pass them?"
3 Answer: "Yes."
4 Question: "Right so these people came down the
5 street and said this, or directed this comment towards
6 you?"
7 Page [07499]:
8 Answer: "Yes."
9 Question: "Did they know you?"
10 Answer: "No."
11 Question: "It is just I am wondering how they knew
12 what religion you were?"
13 Answer: "They must have assumed I was from the
14 town."
15 Question: "They assumed. Right. Okay. So there's
16 two women and three men?"
17 Answer: "Yes."
18 Question: "Was it men or boys?
19 Answer: "Fully grown men.
20 Question: "Fully grown men. Big lumps of fellows?"
21 Answer: "Yes."
22 Question: "Were they bigger than you?"
23 Then, [07500]:
24 Answer: "Yes."
25 Question: "They were. Do you remember which one of
51
1 the men said this or what he looked like, David?"
2 Answer: "Yes. He had a blue shirt on and a tie."
3 Question: "A blue shirt and a tie on?"
4 Answer: "Yes."
5 Question: "You remember that quite well?"
6 Answer: "Yes."
7 Question: "Right, and what age would that fellow
8 have been?"
9 Answer: "Late twenties."
10 Question: "Late twenties. Was he smaller than you or
11 taller than you or what?"
12 Answer: "He was taller and bigger build."
13 Question: "Well, how tall would he have been,
14 David?"
15 Then, [07501]:
16 Answer: "Nearly six foot, no five ten, five eleven."
17 Question: "And when you say -- was he big build?"
18 Answer: "He was big build, yes."
19 Question: "Was he fat or was he muscular? Do you
20 know what I mean by that? Was he physically -- you
21 know, was he an Arnold Schwarzenegger or was he just
22 a slob?"
23 Answer: "Fat."
24 Question: "Right okay, tell me what happened."
25 Answer: "The other man with him came running at me."
52
1 Question: "What was he dressed in?"
2 Answer: "He had a black coat on."
3 Question: "Do you know what type of coat it was?"
4 Answer: "A leather coat."
5 Then, [07502], the question and answer was repeated.
6 Then:
7 Question: "What length of a coat was it? Was it
8 a bomber jacket type coat or was it a straight cut coat,
9 three quarter length?"
10 Answer: "A straight leather jacket."
11 Question: "Right. Would it have went to just his
12 waist or below?"
13 Answer: "A box jacket."
14 That's repeated then. Then if we go finally to
15 page [07505] and Mr Woods is asked again about this man
16 with a black leather jacket. The first answer he gives
17 on the page is:
18 Answer: "No, they were coming along the same side
19 of the street as me."
20 Question: "Okay. What happened?"
21 Answer: "He came running at me and hit me on the
22 face and run out into the middle of the town."
23 Question: "He hit you on the face?"
24 Answer: "He hit me on the face and run past me into
25 the middle of the town."
53
1 Question: "Did he use his fist?"
2 Answer: "Yes."
3 I have put an awful lot there to you, of course, but
4 you get the drift of it, which is that there is a group
5 of Catholics standing at the British Legion. There is
6 Woods turning into Thomas Street, walking down, fearful,
7 on his own, he says, and there is sectarian abuse
8 directed at him, that two men, at least, come running
9 towards him, one of them wearing a black leather jacket,
10 one of them with a description very much like the
11 description of Colin Prunty we have already seen, and
12 the person in the black leather jacket punches him.
13 Now again, would you like to comment on that and
14 whether that fits at all with your recollection?
15 A. It doesn't fit at all with any recollection I have.
16 Again, I can only say that Colin and I were walking
17 ahead of the crowd down towards Thomas Street when the
18 fighting broke out. I don't recall anyone coming up
19 Thomas Street.
20 Q. The Panel may have to decide whether somebody is lying
21 at the end of this.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. It is not for me to suggest who that might be. Have
24 you any reason for covering up here?
25 A. Have I any reason?
54
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. If one can construe from this an allegation that
4 Robert Hamill had run down and punched Mr Woods in the
5 face and started the fight that way, if that had
6 happened, would you have covered that up?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you particularly close to Mr Hamill?
9 A. I didn't know him, just by sight.
10 Q. Had you any particular hatred for Protestants?
11 A. No.
12 Q. There is another witness who was interviewed along the
13 same lines. I am going to put this to you much more
14 briefly, if I may. Page [07302]. This is an interview
15 of a Mr Allen. If we can take the last half of the
16 page, the part that says "Allen". Thank you. He says:
17 "Rory Robinson was there and David Woods. I heard
18 shouting coming down Thomas Street but I just thought it
19 was somebody from the Legion or Jamesons, then there
20 was a crowd of boys and girls coming down. I thought
21 they were going to walk on past, I paid no attention.
22 One of the boys hit David Woods on the face and then
23 another boy starting fighting with Rory Robinson.
24 Another boy came at me and I backed off into the middle
25 of the road. He kept on coming at me trying to,
55
1 swinging punches trying to hit me. So I turned and ran
2 up Thomas Street and another boy was standing up there, he
3 started swinging punches at me."
4 We will just pause it there. That, of course, is
5 much less, as it were, aggressive towards the Catholic
6 point of view, because the only allegation I think he is
7 making there of something you might have seen is that he
8 heard shouting coming down Thomas Street, and, again,
9 your evidence is there was no shouting coming from your
10 group. Is that right?
11 A. Uh-huh, yes.
12 Q. What he then has is how the fight broke out between
13 boys. Again, is that possible, the version he is giving
14 there?
15 A. I couldn't honestly say. All I can remember on the
16 night ...
17 Q. Then if we go back to your witness statement at
18 page [80873], at paragraph 37, if we could highlight it,
19 you say:
20 "In my opinion I think that the police could have
21 prevented the fighting that night. Although there was
22 only 1 Land Rover at the scene, the police were there
23 and I assume that they could see us when we were walking
24 down. The police station was also only round the corner,
25 and they could have radioed through for assistance, or
56
1 they could have even contacted St Patrick's Hall ..."
2 Is there anything else, apart from the evidence you
3 have already given about what you saw, that you would
4 like to say about the police?
5 A. No. I think I have summed it up in that paragraph.
6 Q. Then, going over the page to page [80874], paragraph 38,
7 it is the last part of that paragraph I am interested
8 in:
9 "At some stage I gave the navy jacket I had been
10 wearing on the night to the police for their inquiries.
11 The police never asked me to attend any formal
12 identification parades ..."
13 Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you have done it if you had been asked?
16 A. I would have done it, but I wouldn't have been of any
17 help because I didn't recognise, didn't know any names,
18 only the people I was with, you know.
19 Q. You say you didn't speak to any officer about the
20 incident after you had completed your statement?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. If anybody had asked you for more detail at the time,
23 would you have given it?
24 A. Oh, certainly, yes.
25 Q. I have not taken you to the police statement that you
57
1 made on the night. By all means look at it if you want
2 to. What I want to ask you about is a general question
3 on it.
4 How thoroughly did you feel the police approached
5 this when they took a statement from you?
6 A. Well, in my opinion -- I mean, I told them everything
7 I could remember on the night. So I suppose in that
8 respect they were thorough enough.
9 Q. So was it a proper interview then?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Nothing you told them was left out of the statement?
12 A. Not as far as I recall, no.
13 Q. There is one other matter I want to ask you about, which
14 is at page [42971]. We see a statement you made to
15 xxxxxxxxxx.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. How did it come about that you made that statement?
18 A. I can't honestly recall. I am assuming xxxxxxxxxx
19 was maybe the solicitor for the family at the time.
20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 A. And maybe that's why I was called.
22 Q. Again, we can go to it if you want to, but we have
23 a document which suggests that when she took that
24 statement from you, she didn't know that you had made
25 a statement to the police.
58
1 Was there any discussion between you and her about
2 whether you had made a statement to the police, do you
3 recall?
4 A. I can't recall. When was this statement?
5 Q. This was 19th June and you had given your statement to
6 the police on 9th May.
7 A. Ms xxxxxxxxxx thought I hadn't given a statement to the
8 police?
9 Q. So it appears, yes.
10 A. The statement was given on 9th May.
11 Q. I am not suggesting you didn't make it on 9th May. I am
12 just wondering whether there was any discussion, whether
13 she had asked.
14 A. I don't recall.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much, Ms McCoy.
16 As I say, other people may wish to ask you questions.
17 That's all I have.
18 A. Thank you.
19 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
20 MR O'HARE: Mr Adair has had to nip out for two minutes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: May I just clarify what I said earlier? We
22 have just seen an example now of differing accounts
23 being put to the witness so that she is able to deal
24 with them and we have her account. There is no need for
25 that to be simply repeated.
59
1 Is someone going for Mr Adair?
2 MR McGRORY: Sir, I had just one minor issue. Perhaps I can
3 deal with it before Mr Adair returns?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
5 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
6 MR McGRORY: Ms McCoy, for the sake of clarity, I act for
7 the Hamill family in this Inquiry.
8 There is one issue I would like to clarify with you
9 and that's the extent to which you might have been able
10 to give descriptions of people as opposed to saying
11 whether or not you recognised them.
12 Do you understand the difference between the two?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. While you said you might, in your view, not have been of
15 great use to the police in terms of an identification
16 parade because you did not recognise anybody, had you
17 been asked closer to the time to give a description in
18 terms of height, hair, clothing and so forth, might you
19 have been able to have been more helpful in that regard?
20 A. That's possible, yes, yes.
21 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
22 MS DINSMORE: Mr Chairman, I am happy to usurp Mr Adair's
23 position, if that is acceptable.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, of course. Oh!
25 MS DINSMORE: Oh!
60
1 MR ADAIR: If you want me to start, sir. I had to excuse
2 myself for a minute.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
4 I think you wouldn't have heard me say that we have
5 had an example of contrary cases being put to the
6 witness, and she has dealt with them, and there is
7 certainly no need to go over that ground again unless
8 there is something to be added.
9 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
10 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
11 MR ADAIR: Ms McCoy, we know, as has been read out to you,
12 that a number of witnesses, for example, Mr Jones and
13 a witness known as P, have either given an account or we
14 anticipate will give an account which tends to suggest
15 that the people coming down Thomas Street provoked the
16 initial incident.
17 Now, could it be that that happened and you missed
18 it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Again, this is -- I don't want you to take this as any
21 criticism whatsoever, but could it be -- I am just
22 asking you -- that because of the alcohol you had
23 consumed, your recollection of the events is hazy?
24 I am just asking that as a possibility.
25 A. There are certain things on that night that stand out in
61
1 your memory and that's one of them: meeting D, E and F
2 and Robert, the conversation we had and then me and
3 Colin walking on.
4 Q. So do you entirely exclude, as far as your recollection
5 is concerned, any shouting on the part of the Catholics
6 coming down Thomas Street as they made their way to the
7 junction?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It is not that you may have missed it or that you
10 possibly didn't hear it for some reason? If you are
11 correct, it simply didn't happen?
12 A. As I recall, there wasn't any shouting from the
13 Catholics walking down Thomas Street.
14 Q. Is there any scenario -- again, I am not going to go
15 through the details of what those -- you have read what
16 Mr Jones says and what P says and so on.
17 Can you help us: is there any scenario that you can
18 envisage that evening where you might have missed
19 Robert Hamill striking someone and Mr Prunty and D being
20 involved in -- let's put it this way -- a confrontation?
21 Is there any way you could have missed that?
22 A. No. As I said earlier, the first time I realised there
23 was something going on was when Colin and I reached the
24 bottom of Thomas Street and the crowd was on our right,
25 and that's when fighting broke out.
62
1 Q. At that stage, as I understand your evidence, according
2 to you, Mr Hamill and D, E and F were behind you.
3 A. Just slightly behind us, yes.
4 Q. Slightly behind you.
5 A. I am assuming, because, you know ...
6 Q. For example, could it be that that incident where there
7 was an assault by either Mr Hamill or one of his group,
8 could that have happened behind you and you didn't see
9 it?
10 A. No, not as far as I am aware, no.
11 Q. So there can be no reconciling -- I am just asking
12 you --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- because we know that is what this witness said and
15 what we anticipate a witness will say -- can you see any
16 way of reconciling what you say and what they say, at
17 all, just from your recollection of events?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind whatsoever that --
20 I think you have told us on a number of occasions that
21 you walked down the street ahead of Mr Hamill, D, E
22 and F.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You are absolutely clear about that?
25 A. Yes.
63
1 Q. Along with Mr Prunty?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you could pull up page [09101], please. This is
4 a statement of Colin Prunty.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. If you would highlight perhaps the bottom half of the
7 page, you will see he says:
8 "We got a taxi from the Parkside and went to the
9 hall. At the disco in the hall I had about four or five
10 pints. In total then I had about six or seven pints of
11 Bass. I was in good form but wasn't drunk. I was fully
12 aware of what I was doing. Shortly after half past one which
13 was actually Sunday morning, Maureen and me left the
14 hall to walk home."
15 That's right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "We were walking down Thomas Street on the footpath on
18 the right-hand side of the road. We were walking along
19 towards the main street to cross over into
20 Woodhouse Street. Ahead of us was a fella called D, he
21 was with his wife, E, and another girl called F. I'm
22 not sure of her second name, but I think it's [blank]
23 she's E's sister. Ahead of them was Robert Hamill. He
24 was on his own and about roughly 30 to 40 yards ahead of
25 me."
64
1 So you will see that Colin Prunty has Robert Hamill
2 30 to 40 yards ahead of D, E and F, but followed by D, E
3 and F and then followed by you and Colin. What do you
4 say about that?
5 A. That's at the British Legion where we stopped, where we
6 had the discussion about the police Land Rover.
7 Q. If you look again about halfway down that:
8 "We were walking along towards the main street to
9 cross over into Woodhouse Street."
10 What I am saying to you is the description Colin has
11 given is at a point when you were approaching the
12 junction with the main street and Woodhouse Street.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Now, is he right or are you right?
15 A. As far as I recall, it was myself and Colin, because
16 I had said to E and F that it would be okay to walk on
17 down and that's why we proceeded on down Thomas Street.
18 Q. Again, for the Panel's assistance, can you see any way
19 of reconciling your recollection of the progress towards
20 the main street and what Colin Prunty, we anticipate, is
21 going to tell us?
22 A. No. I can only tell you what I recall.
23 Q. Now, as I understand your evidence, as you -- again I am
24 not going to go through this in any detail with you,
25 Ms McCoy, I have gone through it in some detail already.
65
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. As I understand, when you arrived essentially at the
3 junction of Thomas Street and Market Street, there was
4 a crowd of people there -- we will call them the
5 Protestants, for want of a better word.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. While they may have been saying something in sectarian
8 terms to you and Colin, they directed their attack
9 towards the people behind you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did they actually then run past you up Thomas Street
12 towards Mr Hamill and the others?
13 A. I don't know, because at this stage I ran across the
14 street.
15 Q. Where was Mr Hamill first attacked?
16 A. I am assuming he was attacked at the corner of
17 Thomas Street. I don't know, because at this stage
18 I just literally ran, because, again, I had said someone
19 was being attacked, but at that stage I was unaware that
20 it was either Robert or D.
21 Q. But there was no attack made on Mr Prunty?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you hear or see anything which may help us in
24 concluding why the attack was on Mr Hamill and the
25 others as opposed to Mr Prunty?
66
1 A. No. I don't know.
2 Q. You then, as we know, went into the shop door, for want
3 of -- at the corner?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It is clear that you have told us the attack on
6 Mr Hamill was like a swarm of bees, and I think you have
7 agreed that it was over in a few moments.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. A number of other ways that people have described it is
10 that it was a spontaneous attack. It was all very
11 quick, over in a flash. Is that a fair way of
12 describing it?
13 A. Yes. At the time, you think it's quite a timespan, but
14 actually it's not. It's a few minutes.
15 Q. Well, there's a very substantial difference you will
16 understand, Ms McCoy, between a few minutes and a few
17 moments and over in a flash.
18 Again, I know this is very difficult, looking back
19 from now, but the descriptions which I have given you,
20 the swarm of bees, the rapidity of the attack, the
21 attack was over in a very short period of time, the
22 actual attack?
23 A. Well, it certainly wouldn't have been seconds.
24 Q. Right.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, it certainly wouldn't have been
67
1 seconds, did you say?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR ADAIR: We know within, I think, a short period of
4 time -- I am not going to go through all your movements.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. I know you went over to the Alliance & Leicester and
7 then came back over when you saw what turned out to be
8 Robert's body on the ground?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were with him within a very short time, I assume, of
11 the attack having occurred?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Within that very short time of the attack having
14 occurred when you were with him, am I right in saying
15 there were police officers standing beside you? I think
16 you have said "officer" today, but in your statement
17 originally do you agree you said "officers"?
18 A. Well, if it is officers in my original statement, that's
19 what it was.
20 Q. Right. So within a very short time of the attack having
21 occurred, which you have described, and you have
22 described the location, you are tending to Robert and
23 there are police officers immediately adjacent to you.
24 Do you know how many? Were there two, were there
25 three?
68
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Is it clear now in hindsight -- and I know hindsight is
3 a wonderful thing -- that the crowd did not further
4 assault or injure Robert when he was on the ground while
5 you were tending to him?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. We know the police were out at that stage. Can you help
8 us at all as to whether you were aware, even in your
9 peripheral vision, that the police were holding the
10 crowd back and that's why Robert was not further
11 attacked?
12 A. I was aware of the crowd behind me towards
13 St Mark's Church.
14 Q. Were they still shouting abuse?
15 A. They were certainly shouting, yes. They were very
16 noisy.
17 Q. Were they still being an aggressive crowd, the
18 Protestants?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But for whatever reason, they did not succeed in any
21 further attack on Robert?
22 A. That's correct.
23 MR ADAIR: Thank you very much.
24 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
25 MS DINSMORE: In relation to that evening, you visited
69
1 a number of public houses, the Royal Oak and the
2 Parkside and then St Patrick's Hall, and yourself and
3 Mr Prunty had consumed alcohol to the extent you have
4 outlined. When you came to leave the hall there was
5 difficulty getting a taxi.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How hard did you try? I mean, was there a huge queue
8 and you just decided, "We will just walk on home"?
9 A. I don't recall the exact details. I imagine we would
10 have phoned for a taxi and maybe been told it would be
11 half an hour or three-quarters of an hour. It was
12 a nice evening, so we decided to walk home.
13 Q. Did you and Colin leave on your own?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have explained to the Inquiry the walk that you took
16 on leaving the hall?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were the first persons you encountered on leaving the
19 hall D, E, F and Mr Hamill?
20 A. As far as I recall, yes.
21 Q. That was at the top where you have marked it?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. You say from where you were there you would have had
24 a view of the Land Rover?
25 A. Yes.
70
1 Q. You would also have had a view, and I understand you
2 stated that you saw a group of about ten to fifteen
3 peeking round the corner. "Peeking" you use in one
4 statement, or being present. So they are not so much
5 actually on Market Street, but as on the corner of
6 Market Street/Thomas Street and in your view?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, there was nothing whatsoever in their demeanour
9 that made you apprehensive about continuing down that
10 street?
11 A. Not at that time, no.
12 Q. Now, did D, E, F and Mr Hamill approach you or did you
13 come upon them? Could you just tell us the sequence of
14 that, please?
15 A. As far as I recall, they had stopped, and, obviously, as
16 we were walking, we came upon them.
17 Q. Could you just tell me everything you remember about
18 that conversation? Now we know it was the girl, F. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you just tell us exactly what you recall being
22 said to you?
23 A. I recall her saying, "Maureen, don't go down there.
24 There is a crowd at the bottom of Thomas Street."
25 She said "Maureen", she knew your name?
71
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you are familiar with her?
3 A. I know her, yes.
4 Q. You knew her well?
5 A. No. I don't know her well, no.
6 Q. No, but you knew her well enough to heed her as someone
7 who would have your well being at heart --
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. -- and if she said, "Don't go down", that's something
10 you would have taken seriously?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You would have taken it seriously on an assessment of
13 the scenario you found yourself in?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So she says, "Don't go down there", and your reaction to
16 that was that you considered it safe enough to proceed?
17 A. Safe enough, yes, because the Land Rover was at the top
18 of Woodhouse Street.
19 Q. So, (a) a Land Rover was at the top of Woodhouse Street,
20 and (b), am I correct in understanding that you have
21 said there was nothing in relation to the ten to fifteen
22 gentlemen's demeanour in the vicinity of the corner that
23 was alarming you?
24 A. No, not at that time.
25 Q. There was no sectarian shouting, no aggression, no
72
1 provocative behaviour on their part?
2 A. No, that is correct.
3 Q. You have a woman who has your well-being at heart, who
4 comes and says "Look, Maureen, don't go down there".
5 You say, "Look, safe enough. The boys aren't causing
6 any hassle, and, sure, there is a police Land Rover
7 there". Is that your thinking?
8 A. At no stage, did I say the boys --
9 Q. I apologise to you. I am trying to get your mindset --
10 A. The reason I proceeded down Thomas Street was because of
11 the fact the police Land Rover was sitting at the top of
12 Woodhouse Street.
13 Q. But I am suggesting to you -- I am not taking away from
14 that at all, but I am suggesting to you that that
15 consideration was also in the context of observations of
16 ten to fifteen gentlemen who were not behaving in
17 a threatening manner at that stage?
18 A. At that stage, no.
19 Q. Now, in relation to that conversation, apart from
20 Witness F saying to you, "Maureen, don't go down there",
21 can you remember any other words spoken?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Is it correct to say you have told the Inquiry earlier
24 today, however, it might well have been said, "It is
25 a free country. I will walk where the fuck I like"?
73
1 A. I don't recall saying that.
2 Q. I am not saying for a moment you said it. Just for
3 a moment, so the Inquiry is clear, you are not
4 suggesting either that those words perhaps were not
5 spoken?
6 A. As far as I recall, I didn't hear those words.
7 Q. Well, did anybody say anything else apart from,
8 "Maureen", and you walking on down?
9 A. No. I spoke to F.
10 Q. You spoke to F and that was it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say you don't remember that, and I don't want to
13 press you further. I understood earlier you said,
14 "Maybe it could have been said". Is that still your
15 position, that you don't remember it?
16 A. Well, the only conversation I recall is the one I had
17 with F, and that's --
18 Q. Did nobody else get a speaking part at all? Nobody else
19 spoke?
20 A. Well, I was speaking to F.
21 Q. Where were the others, then, when you were speaking to
22 F?
23 A. I can't recall.
24 Q. How close to you would Colin have been? Were you and
25 Colin holding hands and things?
74
1 A. No.
2 Q. Right. How close would Colin have been to you?
3 A. I don't recall.
4 Q. You don't recall. You don't recall how close E and D
5 and Mr Hamill were either?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall whether you were on the pavement or in the
8 middle of the road?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. After this conversation, you then walk on down?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You are -- because it has been put to you that Mr Prunty
13 and D, E and F do not actually agree with the sequence
14 of the movement of each of you -- clear in your own mind
15 that you are proceeding down Thomas Street, and behind
16 you there is Mr Hamill, there is D, there is E and there
17 is F?
18 A. That's my recollection, yes.
19 Q. Can you remember how far ahead of them you were?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you were ahead of them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How far would you have walked after that conversation?
24 A. The conversation, as I recall, took place at the
25 British Legion.
75
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. So what's that? A few yards.
3 Q. Do you recall, did they follow behind you then?
4 A. I have no recollection.
5 Q. You really don't know. You walked on?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That was the end of it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Really then, the next thing you knew was that there is
10 really all of a sudden this fight?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So what has happened is that potentially there is
13 a crowd who were not behaving in any way that alarmed
14 you. You were proceeding through their midst.
15 I believe at some stage you said you were almost nearly
16 at touching level with them. There was nothing about
17 their demeanour that made you stop in your tracks. The
18 next thing you knew, for some reason there is a surge
19 and a fight ensues?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That happened very, very quickly indeed?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. But you know not what caused those gentlemen to change
24 from the demeanour that caused you no apprehension to
25 a situation where they are literally almost by-passing
76
1 you into a fight with the persons on Thomas Street.
2 Isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But you say, "If it was to do with provocative behaviour
5 going on behind my back, by persons coming behind me,
6 I know not of it"?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. But, of course, it wasn't like a silent, golden evening.
9 This is an evening where people are about and there is
10 a bit of noise, etc, etc?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Would there have been the potential for a bit of
13 revelry, noise, singing, chanting, background noise, so
14 to speak?
15 A. From the crowd coming behind me?
16 Q. At all. From the whole scenario. Did you hear
17 anything, wheresoever it arose?
18 A. No. I am not aware.
19 Q. You are not aware?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You are not suggesting for a moment --
22 A. I'm not suggesting for a moment it was all quiet.
23 Q. -- it was all silent, quiet?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You are walking along. You are not threatened by these
77
1 in the corner. In addition, you have the added
2 assurance of a police Land Rover. The next thing you
3 know, there is a fight?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You don't know why?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. But if it was something that went on behind you, if
8 somebody created something behind you --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We have dealt with this, haven't we?
10 MS DINSMORE: I am happy to move on.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate the Panel will have to consider,
12 if we accept the evidence about these people peeking
13 round the corner, why they were doing that, but that's
14 not something the witness can deal with.
15 MS DINSMORE: I will move on.
16 If we can move on to you dealing with Mr Hamill.
17 You are the person who cradled his head on your lap.
18 Isn't that right?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. So you are the person who actually was the person who
21 had sight of the injuries first and foremost of everyone
22 that this Inquiry will hear from in relation to the
23 external marks on the sad gentleman's head?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Now, isn't it quite clear that you have outlined what
78
1 you observed in relation to those external marks, and if
2 you could just confirm to me that you didn't see any
3 marks around his head. Isn't that right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You did see liquid. You thought it might have come from
6 a head wound, but you don't know anything more about
7 that.
8 You had his head on your lap and you didn't notice
9 any bruising or cuts on his face or head, nor do you
10 recall any blood on his face or head?
11 A. Well, there was certainly blood, but I was unaware of
12 where the blood was coming from.
13 Q. All I'm trying to establish with you, as you are the
14 first person holding the head, you don't see cuts or
15 bruising, but you saw some blood coming from the head?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Dinsmore, we have the post mortem
18 findings.
19 MS DINSMORE: We do indeed.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Bruising would not have shown up within
21 a minute or two.
22 MS DINSMORE: Certainly. We also have the comparative,
23 Mr Chairman, about the accident and emergency entry and
24 suchlike. It may be, in light of the pathology report,
25 Mr Chairman, you consider very little weight should be
79
1 attached to the immediate observations.
2 I am happy to move on.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
4 MS DINSMORE: Then the other aspect which I wish to clarify
5 with you is the point which my learned friend then dealt
6 with, that, once you were in the position with
7 Mr Hamill, you did not witness any further attacks upon
8 him.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Obviously you are not in a position to say why that
11 didn't happen, but you were aware of a police presence,
12 were you not, and that the police may well have --
13 I think you have alluded in your statement to this --
14 been keeping the crowd back and you would be agreeable
15 to that?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
18 Cross-examination by MR GREEN
19 MR GREEN: I just have one question.
20 You say in your statement to the Inquiry that you
21 did not give evidence and no-one approached you to give
22 evidence at the trial of Marc Hobson. Isn't that
23 correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Were you expecting to be called as a witness?
80
1 A. I never thought about it.
2 Q. Did you think, looking back now those years, that you
3 might have been able to give some valuable evidence to
4 the trial?
5 A. Well, just as maybe the gentleman said earlier, although
6 I wouldn't be able to physically describe, you know --
7 I don't recall faces, and I didn't know any of the
8 people -- maybe I could have described clothing. The
9 only one I really remember was the young man in the back
10 of the Land Rover, his clothing.
11 Q. But your evidence goes much further than just an ability
12 to give descriptions. It gives detail about what was
13 happening on the ground that night. Isn't that right?
14 A. That's correct.
15 MR GREEN: Thank you.
16 Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB
17 MR MCCOMB: May I just ask a very brief line of questioning?
18 May I ask you about the period after Mr Hamill had been
19 struck and you were cradling him?
20 Do you remember the ambulance coming?
21 A. I am not sure.
22 Q. Do you remember --
23 A. I know an ambulance certainly arrived.
24 Q. Yes, that he was stretchered away --
25 A. Yes.
81
1 Q. -- and you saw that.
2 Now, during that period between the time you were
3 cradling Mr Hamill and the ambulance came, the crowd was
4 some distance away from Mr Hamill. Is that right?
5 A. Yes, they were up towards St Mark's Church.
6 Q. Were you aware, at this stage, of what might appear to
7 be two rival crowds shouting at each other and taunting
8 each other?
9 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
10 Q. That was the recollection, actually, of the ambulance
11 driver, when he came to the scene. That's why I was
12 asking about that, Ms McCoy. There appeared to be two
13 rival crowds, two rival factions, shouting at and
14 taunting each other.
15 Might that have happened but that not be your
16 recollection?
17 A. To be honest with you, when I was sitting with Robert,
18 I was really unaware of most things going on around me.
19 MR MCCOMB: I can appreciate that. That's at 40273, if it
20 is of any assistance for the record, sir.
21 I think, subject to anything, that's everything
22 I would like to ask of Ms McCoy.
23 MR McGRORY: There is one issue I would like to clarify with
24 this witness arising out of those questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
82
1 Further cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
2 MR McGRORY: You did say a few minutes ago you would be able
3 to describe the clothing of the man getting out of the
4 Land Rover.
5 A. I believe it is in my statement. I do recall him
6 wearing a Rangers' scarf.
7 Q. Is that the only assistance you are able to give us now?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR McGRORY: I just wanted to clarify that.
10 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter, if I may.
12 You were asked about your jacket and blood. You
13 said that you cradled Robert Hamill's head in your lap
14 and you might have got blood on your jacket from that,
15 I think.
16 Did you take your jacket off and put it under his
17 head or did you keep it on?
18 A. As far as I recall, I kept it on. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Was there much blood on your jacket?
20 A. The police still have it, so, no, I don't recall.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: All right.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms McCoy.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Ms McCoy. That's your
24 evidence and you may go. Thank you very much for
25 coming.
83
1 My next witness is Colin Prunty.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: I am hearing murmurings about a break.
4 Obviously I am in your hands, sir.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Ten minutes. 12.30.
6 (12.20 am)
7 (A short break)
8 (12.30 am)
9 MR UNDERWOOD: I thank you on behalf of all those attending.
10 I call Colin Prunty, please.
11 MR COLIN MARTIN JOHN PRUNTY (affirmed)
12 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Prunty. My name is
14 Underwood. I am Counsel for the Inquiry. I will be
15 asking most, if not all, the questions of you. Can
16 I ask you to give us your full names, please.
17 A. Colin Martin John Prunty.
18 Q. You have made a statement for the Inquiry, I know. Can
19 I just get you to identify that, please?
20 If we look at page [81092] and just flick through
21 the nine pages of that quite quickly just so you can
22 see, that's a statement you have signed now, is it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Is it true?
25 A. Yes.
84
1 Q. Thank you. I just want you to identify other statements
2 and documents that concern you. If we look at
3 page [08135], this is a questionnaire, and it goes over
4 to [08136] as well. What it says is that it was taken
5 from you on 3rd May 1997.
6 Do you remember that questionnaire being taken?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you tell the truth in that as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Then at page [09101] we see a statement of
11 yours of 8th May 1997. If we could just go through
12 slowly to [09104], again is that your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, was that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Then you made another statement I think we
17 see on page [09105], 3rd November 1997. Again, was that
18 true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Then -- we are almost there -- there is
21 a note of consultation, [18062]. This goes over for two
22 pages. It is a note of a consultation that took place
23 on 30th October 1997 with you, a Mr Kerr, QC, and
24 others. I am not suggesting this is your note, of
25 course. Have you seen this note before?
85
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. I think you gave evidence at the trial of
3 Mr Hobson as well.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Right. Were you telling the truth when you gave that
6 evidence?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you, before we look at any of
9 these documents in any detail, what sort of memory you
10 have of the events of the night of 26th/27th April 1997?
11 A. Obviously it is a long time ago, but a pretty good
12 memory of it.
13 Q. What I am going to try to do with you, if I can, is to
14 try to get your account out without taking you through
15 the documents as much as I can.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We will just go back to the documents where we have to.
18 I think you are a Portadown born and bred person.
19 Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the night, you went to St Patrick's Hall with
22 Maureen McCoy?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think you knew Robert Hamill.
25 A. Yes.
86
1 Q. How well?
2 A. I knew him pretty well. I wouldn't have been a close
3 friend of him, but I would have been friendly with him
4 if I seen him in the street or anywhere.
5 Q. There were three people we are talking about now. We
6 are calling them D, E and F. Do you know who we are
7 talking about?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Good. Did you know those?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again, how well?
12 A. Pretty well, just the same way as I knew Robert.
13 Q. When you went to St Patrick's Hall that night, do you
14 remember what you were wearing?
15 A. Black trousers, shirt, tie, leather jacket.
16 Q. A black leather jacket, did you say?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At St Patrick's Hall, do you remember seeing
19 Robert Hamill or D, E or F?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What state were you in, in terms of drink, by the time
22 you left?
23 A. I was pretty dead on. I wasn't really -- I was drunk
24 but I wasn't overly drunk, you know. I knew what I was
25 doing.
87
1 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what time you left?
2 A. It was round between 1.00 and 1.30.
3 Q. Tell us what was going on when you went out. Other
4 people have told us there was a queue for the phones for
5 taxis. Can you describe the scene? How busy was it in
6 the hall? How busy was it --
7 A. It was busy enough in the hall. There were people
8 trying to get taxis, but I decided to chance it and to
9 go on down home.
10 Q. Can you help us with the question whether anybody else
11 was leaving in the same way at the same time as you
12 were?
13 A. There was a few leaving, not too many, just straggling
14 out, different people, different times.
15 Q. Did you get any impression about where they were going?
16 Were they going out to taxis? Were they going left of
17 St Patrick's Hall or were they going up Thomas Street
18 towards Obins Street?
19 A. They would have been heading towards Thomas Street,
20 Obins Street.
21 Q. The same way you wanted to go, up Thomas Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I am slowing down because people are writing.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Then, if we look at the night model, which
88
1 will come up on our screens, and if we pan it round, we
2 can look down Thomas Street. Hold it there.
3 Now, is the British Legion down there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On the left?
6 A. On the left, yes.
7 Q. Somewhere by where that telegraph pole is?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I want to ask you about what happened when you reached
10 the sort of area we can see in this model, when you were
11 walking.
12 For a start, can you tell us which side of the
13 street you were walking on as you came down? Was it
14 your left, your right or neither?
15 A. I was walking down the Jamesons side, the bakery side.
16 Q. Right. So on our left here, your right as you were
17 coming down?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As you were walking down, before you got to that point,
20 was it just you and Maureen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You have told us that other people might have straggled
23 out in groups --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- at the same sort of time. Did you see anybody else?
89
1 Before you got to that point, did you see anybody else
2 on the street, do you recall?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who was that?
5 A. I seen D, E and F and Robert.
6 Q. Okay. Where were they?
7 A. They were in front of me.
8 Q. Uh-huh. Did they come to a stop at any point?
9 A. I think they stopped when they came towards the bakery.
10 Q. This side of Jamesons, do you think; in other words, the
11 bakery side of Jamesons, or --
12 A. The bakery side of Jamesons.
13 Q. Okay. Was anything said?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you work out why you thought they stopped?
16 A. I think they thought there was a crowd on the right-hand
17 side.
18 Q. It was just obvious, was it, that they stopped because
19 there was a crowd there, or what?
20 A. They were walking down by the bakery, just they
21 hesitated and stopped and then, next minute, a crowd
22 just came from the right-hand side.
23 Q. Did you overtake them at that point --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- or were they still in front of you?
90
1 A. Still in front.
2 Q. So if we swing this picture round to the left and stop
3 it there for a bit, can you tell us in relation to this
4 where all this happened?
5 A. What do you mean? From the crowd, where the --
6 Q. How far had people got before the crowd came up?
7 A. Just from about where the bakery is there, just about to
8 walk down and then, the next minute, the crowd just came
9 from the right-hand side.
10 Q. Can you tell us how many people were in the crowd
11 roughly?
12 A. 20 to 30.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Who was by the bakery at that time? D, E, F
14 and Robert, or you and Ms McCoy?
15 A. D, E, F and Robert.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you catch up with them there or were you
17 still behind them?
18 A. I had caught up with them.
19 Q. Were you walking closely behind them or alongside or
20 what?
21 A. Just closely behind them.
22 Q. I think you know that Maureen McCoy's recollection is
23 that you and she were in front of the others --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- but your recollection is clear about this, is it?
91
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So the crowd came from the left -- sorry -- from your
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From up the street as we see it there. What happened
6 then exactly? When I say "exactly", what happened as
7 best you can recall it?
8 A. The best I can recall it, I remember Robert going on
9 down, and the next minute being jumped by a crowd of
10 youths and it all happened so quickly. We just run in
11 to try to break it up. The next minute, Robert was to
12 the ground.
13 Q. Now, we can give you control of this screen. Can we do
14 that and a screen shot, please?
15 Did he go on the ground or was he attacked on the
16 scene that we see here or was it some other part of the
17 crossroads?
18 A. Another part of the crossroads.
19 Q. Right. Okay. Can we go back and pan it round? If we
20 pan round to the left, we can go all the way round here
21 and you can tell us where. We can go back at any stage.
22 A. Roughly there.
23 Q. Stop it there, please. Give Mr Prunty control of this
24 and do a screen shot.
25 Would you be kind enough to mark on here where you
92
1 recall this happening?
2 A. Round about there.
3 Q. Right. Thank you. Have I got this right: it happens
4 very quickly, and he is set on?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You try to go in and help?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see what other people did.
9 A. I didn't really see. It all happened that quickly.
10 I didn't really see what other people were doing, you
11 know.
12 Q. So again, before all this happened, according to
13 Maureen McCoy, there was a discussion in which F said,
14 "Don't be going down there", but she was satisfied it
15 was safe enough.
16 Did you see a Land Rover before this, do you
17 remember?
18 A. I seen a Land Rover when I came down, yes.
19 Q. Can you give us any help? My task here is to press your
20 memory as hard as I can. Tell me to stop if I'm
21 pressing and you simply can't remember.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us where you were on the street before you
24 saw the Land Rover?
25 A. Roughly round about the middle there, round about here.
93
1 Q. Okay. So do you think you had seen it before the attack
2 took place or afterwards?
3 A. Before the attack took place.
4 Q. Okay. This is not evidence. This is just a model. If
5 it helps, it helps. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We have
6 put the Land Rover there because we think that's the
7 position the police will say it was put in.
8 Can you say anything about that? Does that chime
9 with your memory or was it somewhere else?
10 A. I thought it was just up from that outside -- it is the
11 Halifax, isn't it?
12 Q. The Halifax is on the right of the Land Rover at the
13 moment.
14 A. It wasn't blocking the road down to Woodhouse Street.
15 Q. Right. Okay.
16 You are clear, are you, that the crowd came from up
17 the town, as it were, the right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You know that there are a number of witnesses who give
20 different accounts --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- of how this all started up. At part of your
23 statement you deal with a statement made by
24 a Mr William Jones, which gives a different account of
25 this.
94
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What I want to do is put that to you in detail so that
3 we can get your comments on it. Can we look at
4 page [09111], please? If we can highlight the text.
5 This is a man who says that he lived above Jamesons.
6 What he says in the second sentence is:
7 "On Sunday morning ... I was at home along with my
8 girlfriend ... At approximately 2.00 am I heard loud
9 voices coming from the direction of the British Legion
10 area of Thomas Street."
11 Stopping there, was anybody in the group you were in
12 making noise?
13 A. No.
14 Q. "I looked out of my window which overlooks the bottom of
15 Thomas Street on to Market Street. I saw three or four
16 men running down Thomas Street towards Market Street,
17 they were in the middle of the road."
18 Again, was anybody in your group doing that?
19 A. There was nobody running down.
20 Q. You told us that, on your way down to the
21 British Legion, you were walking on the right-hand side
22 of the road --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- as you were facing. Did you ever swap over? Were
25 you always on the right-hand side, or did you ...
95
1 A. I think I was always on the right-hand side, yes.
2 Q. All right. As I say, if you can't remember, just say
3 so.
4 A. I am near certain I was on the right-hand side.
5 Q. "Also in this group of men were three women."
6 Then he gives descriptions of the men and I want you
7 to comment on the descriptions, if you would:
8 "(1) approximately 5'10", medium build, dark
9 short hair, he was wearing a black leather jacket which
10 was waist length and black trousers I'm not sure if
11 they were of jean material."
12 Now, of you, Robert Hamill and D, would that
13 description fit any of you, do you think?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right:
16 "(2) Approx 5'8", light build, dirty fair
17 hair short, he was wearing a grey jumper which had
18 a pattern all over it and he was wearing light coloured
19 blue jeans."
20 Again, of the three that were in your group --
21 I call it your group, but you know what I mean -- would
22 that description fit any?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who would that fit?
25 A. D.
96
1 Q. Thank you. Then he gives ages for those two people.
2 One of them is 24 to 26 years old and the second 26 to
3 28.
4 Again, would the description of D fit that, 26 to
5 28 years old at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Then he describes number (3):
8 "approx 5'10", stocky/well built,
9 blond/fair hair, shaved into side and back and brushed
10 back on top. He had a full face. He was wearing a pale
11 blue shirt, dark tie, black trousers, the shirt was
12 tucked into the trousers he looked neat and tidy ..."
13 I think Ms McCoy accepted that might have been
14 a description of you. What would you say about that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He goes on over the page, [09112]. If we can highlight
17 that. That's fine. He points out the man who may have
18 been you:
19 "... was wearing black shoes. This man was
20 approximately 28 - 32 years old."
21 Is that fair? Would that have been accurate?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then he says he cannot describe the women and he did not
24 know anybody.
25 If we jump down to about a quarter of the way down,
97
1 it says:
2 "I then saw the person that I have described as
3 number (1) running down Thomas Street towards
4 Market Street on the Jamesons Bar side, as he
5 approached the junction of Thomas Street/Market Street
6 he hit out with his right arm and appeared to connect
7 with a person who was standing at this junction. The
8 assault appeared to be on this person's face, it was at
9 this point I realised that it was my girlfriend's
10 brother ..."
11 So what he is saying is that there is a group and
12 the man in the black leather jacket started this by
13 punching on the face the man who was standing at the top
14 of Thomas Street.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What would you like to say about that?
17 A. As far as I'm concerned, there was no -- that didn't
18 happen.
19 Q. Thank you. There are other people who say that they
20 were in Jamesons Bar. They were the staff there. Their
21 version -- I hope this is a fair summary of it -- is
22 that Catholics came down the street noisily and banging
23 on the shutters. Again, would you like to comment on
24 that?
25 A. Definitely not.
98
1 Q. Okay.
2 There is the version then of Mr Woods himself, who
3 is the person who, on the account we have got of
4 Mr Jones, was the first one punched. Let me show you
5 that. That's at page [07496].
6 It is question and answer, because this is his
7 interview with the police, because he was arrested. If
8 we take it where you see the second -- after the second
9 "Woods", there is a question:
10 Question: "So tell me what happened as you were
11 walking up the town?
12 Answer: "I was walking up the town, I turned up
13 Thomas Street to go home and then into because I live
14 down the [blank]."
15 Question: "Yes. That's where Jamesons Bar is?"
16 Answer: "Yes. I was walking up past Jamesons Bar
17 and --"
18 Question: "On the same side of the street as
19 Jamesons Bar?"
20 Answer: "Yes."
21 Question: "Okay."
22 Answer: "And I heard people shouting you orange
23 bastard. That was the sound as I came up from the
24 town."
25 Was anybody in the group you were with shouting
99
1 that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you hear that shouted by anybody at any point?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay:
6 Question: "Did this come from behind you or in front
7 of you?"
8 Answer: "This was coming from in front of me."
9 Question: "So these people were actually coming down
10 Thomas Street to meet you?"
11 Answer: "They were at, outside the Legion bar.
12 I was outside Jamesons Bar."
13 So what he is saying there is that there is this
14 shouting going on while Mr Woods is at the top of
15 Thomas Street outside Jamesons and other people shouting
16 at him were outside the British Legion.
17 Again, have you any recollection of any sort of
18 long-range shouting like that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Would you have heard it if that had been going on while
21 you were in the area, do you think?
22 A. I didn't hear anything like that.
23 Q. Okay. Then he is asked:
24 Question: "Right, and what did you hear them saying?"
25 Answer: "Orange bastards, up the IRA."
100
1 Question: "Right who was saying this or how many
2 people were in this group?"
3 Answer: "There was about three fellows and two
4 girls."
5 Question: "And two girls right. Did you know any
6 of the group concerned? Did you know them by name?"
7 Answer: "No."
8 Question: "You didn't. Right were they directing
9 that comment at you?"
10 Answer: "Yes."
11 Question: "And what happened?"
12 Answer: "I stood there."
13 Question: "You stopped?"
14 Answer: "I stopped. I was afraid."
15 Question: "You were afraid. Were you going to have
16 to pass them?"
17 Answer: "Yes."
18 Question: "Right so these people came down the
19 street and said this, or directed this comment towards
20 you?"
21 Answer: "Yes."
22 Question: "Did they know you?"
23 Answer: "No."
24 Question: "It is just I am wondering how they knew
25 what religion you were."
101
1 Answer: "They must have assumed I was from the
2 town."
3 Question: "They assumed. Right okay. So there is
4 two women and three men?"
5 Answer: "Yes."
6 Question: "Was it men or boys?"
7 Answer: "Fully grown men."
8 Question: "Fully grown men. Big lumps of fellows?"
9 Answer: "Yes."
10 Question: "Were they bigger than you?"
11 Answer: "Yes."
12 Question: "They were. Do you remember which one of
13 the men said this or what he looked like, David?"
14 Answer: "Yes. He had a blue shirt on and a tie."
15 Question: "A blue shirt and a tie on?"
16 Answer: "Yes."
17 Question: "You remember that quite well?"
18 Answer: "Yes."
19 Question: "Right, and what age would that fellow
20 have been?"
21 Answer: "Late twenties."
22 Question: "Late twenties. Was he smaller than you or
23 taller than you or what?
24 Answer: "He was taller and bigger build."
25 Question: "Well, how tall would he have been, David?"
102
1 Answer: "Nearly six foot, no five ten, five eleven."
2 Question: "And when you say -- was he big build?"
3 Answer: "He was big build, yes."
4 Question: "Was he fat or was he muscular? Do you
5 know what I mean by that? Was he physically -- you
6 know, was he an Arnold Schwarzenegger or was he just
7 a slob?
8 Answer: "Fat."
9 Now just stopping there, he has described somebody
10 coming at him as late 20s, 5'10", 5'11", blue shirt
11 and a blue tie on.
12 Did you see anybody else around who would have
13 fitted that description?
14 A. No.
15 Q. An awkward question, I know, but would you have
16 described yourself as fat in 1997?
17 A. I am a bit fatter now, like, but I would say I was a bit
18 slimmer then.
19 Q. Not for me to comment. Then he goes on:
20 Question: "Right okay, tell me what happened."
21 Answer: "The other man with him came running at me."
22 Question: "What was he dressed in?"
23 Answer: "He had a black coat on."
24 Question: "Do you know what type of coat it was?"
25 Answer: "A leather coat."
103
1 There is some discussion about the leather coat.
2 Again, you have described D as having a patterned jumper
3 on that night.
4 I can't recall now whether I asked you was
5 Robert Hamill wearing a black leather jacket?
6 A. I am not sure what he was wearing.
7 Q. But you have told us you, too, were wearing a black
8 leather jacket?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we go to page [07507]? So he has had a man in
11 a black leather jacket giving him a punch. He is asked
12 what happened then. At the top, he is asked:
13 Question: "And the rest of them run past you?
14 Answer: "Into the town."
15 Question: "That would be the two women you
16 described?"
17 Answer: "Two women."
18 Question: "And the other two men?"
19 Answer: "The other two men yes."
20 Question: "One of them being the one with the shirt?"
21 Answer: "Yes."
22 Question: "What was the other fellow dressed like?"
23 Answer: "I can't remember at all."
24 Question: "You can't remember at all?"
25 So your group then would have been you with your
104
1 shirt and tie, but with a black leather jacket on --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- D with the patterned jumper, and you can't remember
4 what Mr Hamill was wearing? Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do I take it then you just simply don't accept this is
7 a possible version of events, because your group did not
8 start trouble, did not punch anybody?
9 A. No.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: That's all I want to put to you on what that
11 witness or potential witness has to say.
12 I see the time, sir. I don't know
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We have had a break. We will go on another
14 ten minutes or so.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: In that case, let me move on to what Mr Allen
16 says. We see that at page [07302].
17 Again, I can deal with this quite shortly, because
18 it is, in a sense, similar to what Mr Woods has said.
19 Again, this is a police interview. If I can pick up the
20 second half of the page. He is asked:
21 Question: "Who were the two boys with you?"
22 Answer: "Rory Robinson was there and David Woods."
23 That's David Woods whose interview we just looked
24 at:
25 "I hear shouting coming down Thomas Street but
105
1 I just thought it was somebody from the Legion or
2 Jamesons, then there was a crowd of boys and girls
3 coming down. I thought they were going to walk on past,
4 I paid no attention. One of the boys hit David Woods on
5 the face and then another boy started fighting with
6 Rory Robinson. Another boy came at me and I backed off
7 into the middle of the road. He kept on coming at me
8 trying to, swinging punches trying to hit me. So
9 I turned and ran up Thomas Street and another boy was
10 standing up there, he started swinging punches at me."
11 So the description being given then by this man,
12 Mr Allen, is that there were three Protestants standing
13 at the top. One of them, that's Mr Woods, gets hit
14 first, and then another boy -- another one of the
15 Catholics started fighting with Rory Robinson. This
16 man, Mr Allen, is then hit by more than one person.
17 Again, would you like to comment on that?
18 A. I don't recall that happening.
19 Q. Thank you. There is another version of how this all
20 started off. Again, I would like to put that to you, if
21 I may. It is at page [01038]. This is a man who was
22 living down in a flat somewhere near the British Legion.
23 He says:
24 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
25 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
106
1 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
2 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,
3 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and
4 I will walk where the f*** I like'."
5 Again, does that fit with your memory at all
6 A. I don't recall that.
7 Q. If that had happened, would it have stuck in your mind,
8 do you think?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "At this, he shouted to the fellas, 'Do you want
11 a fight?' This was shouted about two maybe three times
12 before the crowd at the bakery responded. Then from
13 this both sides started provoking each other."
14 So what he is describing there is one of the people
15 in the group coming down presumably from
16 St Patrick's Hall starting off the shouting by asking if
17 somebody wanted a fight.
18 Again, how does that fit with your recollection?
19 A. Definitely don't recall that happening.
20 Q. Again, if anybody either in the group you were with or
21 in your hearing had done that, would you have remembered
22 it, do you think?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "The man that had been doing most of the talking then
25 walked out to the middle of the road, placing his bottle
107
1 to the ground, he raised his hands into the air and
2 waved as he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'."
3 Do you remember anybody having a bottle?
4 A. I don't think there was any of us had a drink on us
5 coming from St Patrick's Hall.
6 Q. Okay.
7 "Eventually, one man stepped out from the crowd at
8 the bakery and shouted, 'I'll take you then'. At this
9 point the ladies that were with the two men shouted for
10 them to stop and walk home. But the provoking became
11 worse until both men were about a foot away and sizing
12 each other up ..."
13 Do you remember any of the women, or any women, on
14 the night, trying to stop fighting, trying to stop
15 people getting involved in a fight?
16 A. I think when the whole thing happened, I think there
17 were girls trying to stop the fighting.
18 Q. "... With not one ready to throw a punch until another
19 man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran between the
20 both and punched the one facing the town, ran off in the
21 direction of St Mark's Church."
22 Have you any recollection of that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Then it goes on:
25 "The one who received the blow to his face then
108
1 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after
2 the man who had thrown the first punch."
3 Your recollection is that there is a straightforward
4 attack from your right on Robert Hamill and there is no
5 question of anybody running off and starting fighting?
6 A. Definitely not.
7 Q. He goes on then:
8 "Then one by one the crowd started to run in the
9 direction of the fight. Being followed by the man and
10 both ladies who had been with the person who had started
11 the provocation."
12 He then goes on to say:
13 "The police tried to break up the small crowd
14 without siding with either side, trying to calm the
15 situation ..."
16 I wanted to take you to that next, what happened as
17 the fight developed and what the police did.
18 So, going back to your recollection of how things
19 unfolded, we have the attack, we have it developing
20 a bit. Tell us how it developed.
21 A. Well, just they were all fighting and then Robert was
22 dragged to the ground and there was a crowd kicking him,
23 punching him.
24 Q. Tell us about the crowd. Give us the best idea you can
25 of how many people were involved in that.
109
1 A. Roughly about 15 to 30 people.
2 Q. Could you see, was he able to defend himself --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- was he out of it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you any recollection about what else was going on
7 in the area while that was happening?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What were you doing?
10 A. I remember trying to pull the people off Robert, trying
11 to break the fight up.
12 Q. With any luck?
13 A. I just pulled a few people off him. One fella was
14 brought over to the police in the Land Rover.
15 Q. How did they react to you? Once you had pulled them
16 off, did they go straight back in or did they try to
17 fight with you?
18 A. They went back in again.
19 Q. They were interested in him, were they, rather than
20 attacking you as well?
21 A. They were just attacking -- they were trying to attack
22 people they could attack.
23 Q. What I am trying to get at is, there you were, getting
24 them out of the way --
25 A. Yes.
110
1 Q. -- did you get any group around you at any point trying
2 to attack you?
3 A. No. Well, I was hit a couple of times.
4 Q. What about D? What did you see happen to him?
5 A. D was in a separate incident. I think he was hit by
6 a bottle, but I didn't really know much what was
7 happening with D.
8 Q. I am trying to get some impression as well of where all
9 this was happening. You have shown us on the model
10 where you think Mr Hamill was attacked. What about
11 where D was? Do you need to go back to a map or model
12 to deal with that?
13 Perhaps we can go back to the model and see if it
14 will help. Again, we can spin this round if you need to
15 see it somewhere else.
16 A. Go back again.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. Round about here.
19 Q. If Mr Prunty can have control and have a screen shot.
20 Okay. Do you want to mark where you think this was
21 going on with D? It hasn't come up on the screen at the
22 moment. I don't know whether it is working. That's
23 fine. Thank you very much.
24 Did you see where Maureen McCoy had got to while all
25 of this was going on?
111
1 A. I didn't see where Maureen had got to.
2 Q. Okay. Right. So here you are. The police Land Rover
3 is sitting there. Did you see any police?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Sorry. I interrupted you about D. Before you kindly
6 marked on the screen where he was, you said something
7 about a bottle. Can you just say what you want about
8 that?
9 A. All I know, I just heard he had been hit with a bottle.
10 Q. You heard?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When did you hear that?
13 A. Just general people saying, "He's been hit by a bottle".
14 Q. Afterwards. I understand.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see him on the ground there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's where you marked?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So I get myself clear, did you actually see any fighting
21 going on with him or did you just see him on the ground?
22 A. Just seen him on the ground.
23 Q. What was the atmosphere? What was the noise level?
24 A. It was very loud and robust.
25 Q. Sectarian shouting or not?
112
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that shouting on one side or both sides?
3 A. One side.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Which side was doing the sectarian shouting?
5 A. The Protestant side.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: I am going to move on in due course to how
7 things happened, what happened after that, but just
8 taking a snapshot there, you have got Mr Hamill being
9 attacked by this group of ten or fifteen, you doing your
10 best to get people off him. You have D on the ground.
11 At that point, you think no police out of the
12 Land Rover. Sectarian shouting, very aggressive, noisy
13 on the part of Protestants.
14 Any other Catholics anywhere?
15 A. I think there was a couple of Catholics.
16 Q. Doing what? Were they trying to help? Were they
17 getting attacked?
18 A. Just trying to help.
19 Q. Doing what you were doing, like trying to pull people
20 off or what?
21 A. I think I was trying -- I don't think anybody else was
22 trying to pull anybody out, yes.
23 Q. So you were the only one trying to help Mr Hamill. Is
24 that fair?
25 A. Yes, yes.
113
1 Q. Again, just on -- I am so sorry. Watch the note.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: On this point, where there was this group of
4 ten or fifteen on Mr Hamill who was on the ground, did
5 you recognise anybody who was involved in that attack?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know Marc Hobson, or did you know Marc Hobson?
8 A. No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I was going to move on to another point.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. It is 1.15. 2.15.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: We are going to hold you over lunch, I am
13 afraid, Mr Prunty.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Will you be sure over lunch not to talk to
15 anyone about your evidence or let anyone talk to you
16 about it?
17 A. Yes.
18 (1.15 pm)
19 (The luncheon adjournment)
20 (2.15 pm)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, sir.
23 Mr Prunty, I was just about to move on to, as it
24 were, the next stage of events. We have the attack on
25 Mr Hamill, you doing your best to pull people off.
114
1 There is D lying a bit away on the road.
2 First of all, Maureen McCoy got out of your sight,
3 I think, or was out of your sight when this all started.
4 Did there come a point when you saw her with Mr Hamill?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was she doing with him?
7 A. She was kneeling down just behind him, cradling his
8 head, just holding his head up.
9 Q. Did you see what sort of state he was in?
10 A. He was in bad -- he was in a bad state. He was just
11 lying knocked out, like.
12 Q. Can we look at page [09101], please? This is the
13 witness statement you made on 8th May 1997. In fact,
14 what I need to do is go over the page, I'm afraid.
15 If we pick up the final quarter of the page [09102]:
16 "By the time I got down they were still kicking him
17 all over. I think he was lying on his side and the
18 blood was just pumping out of him mostly from the back
19 of the head. If anything, there were more people
20 kicking at him by the time I got there. They were still
21 shouting 'Kill him, kill him', so I just ploughed into
22 the middle of them to see what I could do to help him."
23 Now, that's obviously describing the attack on him
24 in which you were trying to assist, you were telling us.
25 Is it right that you saw blood pumping out of his
115
1 head?
2 A. I am near enough certain I seen blood coming out of the
3 back of his head.
4 Q. Was that still the case when you saw Maureen McCoy
5 attending to him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see any bottles around there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When Maureen McCoy was attending to Robert Hamill, was
10 the kicking still going on, or had that stopped, or --
11 A. It had stopped.
12 Q. Were people still being aggressive or not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At that point then, just to take a snapshot, you see
15 Maureen McCoy with Robert. The crowd are still being
16 aggressive. Where were they? Were they backed off
17 a bit or what?
18 A. Just all standing round.
19 Q. How did that come about? From the position where there
20 were ten or fifteen of them kicking at him and you
21 trying to get them off, what led to them standing back,
22 do you think?
23 A. Well, I had went in to try to break it up. I think they
24 sort of realised something bad was happening and they
25 just sort of stood up, but there was still an aggressive
116
1 crowd standing in a circle, like.
2 Q. You didn't get the impression they had had enough. They
3 didn't just go home. They backed off a bit?
4 A. Backed off a bit.
5 Q. Is that because police were there, do you think?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Can you give any kind of explanation why they would have
8 backed off from kicking him?
9 A. I just think they had done what they had done. They
10 just had eased off at that stage.
11 Q. Can you give us any sort of time estimate for the period
12 in which the ten or fifteen or so were kicking at him?
13 A. Five minutes, five to ten minutes.
14 Q. I think you told us this morning there were other things
15 going on while this was happening. Can you tell us what
16 else might have been happening, what else you saw?
17 A. There was just a lot of commotion going on at the time.
18 Q. Did you see other Catholics?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you remember who they were, for a start?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell us names?
23 A. What do you mean?
24 Q. Can you tell us names now? Apart from D, E and F, were
25 there other people you recognised at the time?
117
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Colin Hull?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Vincent McNeice?
5 A. Dermot McNeice.
6 Q. I am so sorry. Dermot Vincent McNeice I think is his
7 full name.
8 Was there anybody else you recognised?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What were they doing, Mr Hull and Mr McNeice?
11 A. They were just standing about. Then I think they
12 cleared off then. Didn't stay about, hang about, like.
13 Q. You just saw them briefly?
14 A. Briefly, yes.
15 Q. Can you help us with what else was going on while they
16 were doing that? Was that at the time that
17 Robert Hamill was being kicked or was it at the time
18 when Maureen McCoy was down with him?
19 A. I think it was the time when Maureen was down with him.
20 Q. Okay. If we pick up the bottom of that page, the very
21 last line is:
22 "I wasn't able to do anything."
23 If we go over the page [09103], and take the first
24 half, you say in your police statement:
25 "... for there was just too many of them. By this
118
1 stage", and this is the stage at which people were
2 kicking Mr Hamill, "the Police had got out of the
3 landrover and were over at the crowd. There was either
4 two Policemen and one woman or three Policemen and
5 a woman. They ran in to try to stop it. One of the
6 Policemen actually pulled me back and as he was doing
7 this I saw another Policeman grab hold of one of the
8 fellas in the group that was kicking Robert Hamill."
9 Just pausing there, is that right, that the police
10 came out while the crowd were still kicking Mr Hamill?
11 A. As far as I can remember, the kicking had stopped and
12 the police had got out.
13 Q. You see, here what you say in it -- and I bear in mind
14 this is a statement you made to the police and they may
15 have or may not have put words in your mouth -- is:
16 "By this stage", and this is the stage at which
17 Mr Hamill is being kicked, "the Police had got out ...
18 and were over at the crowd. There was either two
19 Policemen and one woman or three Policemen and a woman.
20 They ran in to try to stop it. One of the Policemen
21 actually pulled me back and as he was doing this
22 I saw another Policeman grab hold of one of the fellas
23 in the group that was kicking Robert Hamill."
24 What you have told the police there is that the
25 police on the scene got out, intervened and actually
119
1 pulled one of the fellows in the group that was kicking
2 Mr Hamill out.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was that accurate then?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Just to move on, this one you go on to talk about one of
7 the fellows in the group that was kicking Robert Hamill:
8 "He was wearing a Rangers scarf and he was took
9 away and put in the back of the landrover. He, like
10 everybody else in the group, was kicking Robert, he was
11 definitely kicking him but I can't say where."
12 Now, I just want to be as clear as I possibly can
13 about this man with the scarf. Never mind what he
14 looked like or anything. What I am interested in is
15 what he was doing.
16 You saw him kicking or in the group that was kicking
17 at Mr Hamill. Was he pulled out from that group by the
18 policeman or policewoman, whichever it was, or was he
19 picked up by a policeman or policewoman after he had
20 stopped kicking, or can't you remember?
21 A. I think he was pulled out, but I can't be sure.
22 Q. Pulled out while he was doing it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. (Pause). Sorry, I am keeping an eye on people's pens.
25 To keep a track on what happened to that person,
120
1 this is a man who you say was wearing a Rangers scarf,
2 taken away and put in the back of the Land Rover. There
3 came a point, we know, when he was let out of the
4 Land Rover or a man was let out of the back of the
5 Land Rover.
6 Ms McCoy told us this morning that you and she at
7 that stage had moved over to the Alliance & Leicester
8 and you saw a policewoman letting somebody out of the
9 back of the Land Rover. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you by the Alliance & Leicester by that point?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What had happened? Had you got Ms McCoy away?
14 A. Yes, I got Maureen away.
15 Q. By that stage then, had things settled down a bit?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the Land Rover, were there any other police officers?
18 Do you remember?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Right. So you had a WPC letting the man out of the back
21 of the Land Rover?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you think it is the same man you saw being picked up
24 with the Rangers scarf?
25 A. Yes.
121
1 Q. Did you see any more than one person with a Rangers
2 scarf that night?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What did you do when you saw him being let out of the
5 back?
6 A. I went over to the policewoman, who was in the back of
7 the Land Rover and said, "What are you letting him go
8 for? Make sure you get his name."
9 Q. Could you have gone further than that and said, "What
10 are you letting him go for? He is one of those that did
11 it"?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Maureen McCoy told us this morning you were very angry
14 by this point. Was that fair?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Angry at the Protestants or angry at the police or just
17 angry?
18 A. Just angry at what had happened.
19 Q. Some time later in the Inquiry we will hear evidence
20 from a policewoman who says she was the officer who let
21 a person out of the back of the Land Rover. I think
22 what she will say is that two men approached her and
23 asked her what she was doing that for, because that was
24 one of the men that had done it.
25 Was there anybody else there apart from you and
122
1 Maureen McCoy?
2 A. Definitely not.
3
4 Q. While the man was in the back of the Land Rover, did he
5 say anything?
6 A. He was just smirking.
7 Q. Looking back at your statement that you made for the
8 Inquiry at [81097], at paragraph 23, in the middle of
9 that, you say:
10 "He was inside the Land Rover being aggressive,
11 making fun of what had happened and saying, 'Fenian
12 bastards'."
13 Do you recall that now or do you just recall him
14 smirking?
15 A. Yes. I remember him saying, "Fenian bastards".
16 Q. You go on to say, the final two sentences:
17 "I was in a bad temper so I swung at him while he
18 was inside the vehicle."
19 That's still your memory of it, is it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you approach any other police officers on the night?
22 Do you remember?
23 A. No.
24 Q. We are missing a man, I can tell you, that it is said
25 went to the door of the Land Rover and yanked at the
123
1 driver and pulled him out saying, "What are you doing
2 sitting there?"
3 Was that you?
4 A. I can't recall. Definitely that wasn't me.
5 Q. Did you see anybody else approach the Land Rover like
6 that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. We know from you, because you have just told us, that
9 the police got out of the Land Rover. They tried to
10 help out with the crowd or help out Robert Hamill by
11 pulling people off.
12 Did you see the police do anything else?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I think they are going to tell us, or some of them are
15 going to tell us, that once reinforcements arrived, they
16 had enough of them to form a line and force the
17 Protestants back up towards the West Street area.
18 Can you comment on that?
19 A. I think I can remember that happening, yes.
20 Q. Can you think of anything else the police could have
21 done that you think would have helped?
22 A. The Land Rover was sitting there. I thought they could
23 have been out of the Land Rover a lot quicker and they
24 should have been.
25 Q. Before Mr Hamill was attacked, do you mean?
124
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You appreciate how difficult it is for those of us who
3 weren't there 12 years on to try to work out the time
4 scale of all this, what people would have seen and what
5 they would have been warned about and so on?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Give us as much help as you can about why you think they
8 could have got out earlier.
9 A. Obviously, there was an attack with a large amount of
10 youths beating a fellow up and the police never got out
11 of the Land Rover to help.
12 Q. You have told us they did get out.
13 A. Eventually, yes.
14 Q. Is this the point: it had been going on too long before
15 the police got out to try to help?
16 A. It was going on, yes.
17 Q. We know that an ambulance turned up. Can you tell us
18 what was going on by the time the ambulance was on the
19 scene or did you not recollect that?
20 A. I can't really remember much about the ambulance.
21 Q. Do you know who went in it?
22 A. I'm not sure.
23 Q. Fair enough. One of the ambulance crew says he thought
24 there were two rival crowds taunting each other by the
25 time he turned up.
125
1 Would you like to comment on that?
2 A. There was nobody -- it was just the crowd -- it was just
3 trying to diffuse the situation, but there was nobody
4 taunting anybody.
5 Q. By that stage, could the police have got a line and got
6 the Protestants up a bit towards West Street, do you
7 think?
8 A. I'm not sure.
9 Q. I think you accepted earlier on that they probably did
10 at some point get them lined up and moved up towards
11 West Street.
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Once they had done that, what was the situation? Were
14 the Protestants quiet or were they still taunting or
15 what?
16 A. They were still taunting.
17 Q. What about those of you who had come up Thomas Street
18 and the ones who had not been knocked out? What were
19 you doing? Were you taunting back? Were any of you?
20 A. No. We were more concerned with what had happened.
21 Q. Okay. I need to ask you, for completeness, about the
22 way in which the description you gave to the police
23 about the man in the Land Rover led to you being
24 questioned by lawyers and what happened about that. All
25 right?
126
1 Can we pick this up from page [09104]? Just the top
2 four lines. You say there -- the man wearing the
3 Rangers scarf, which is what this is about:
4 "... was probably aged twenty to twenty five, roughly about
5 six feet tall and had short dark hair. I don't know this
6 fella. What was distinctive about him is the scarf and
7 how he was wearing it. The scarf was mostly blue with
8 red and white bands running across it at intervals. It
9 was up tight to his neck in like a knot."
10 Then you go on to talk about light-coloured
11 clothing.
12 That's a statement you made on 8th May. How fresh
13 in your mind was all of this on 8th May?
14 A. That's basically what -- what I said there was true,
15 like.
16 Q. You weren't asked to go to an identity parade, I don't
17 think.
18 A. No.
19 Q. If you had been asked to do one, do you think you would
20 have picked out the right man?
21 A. At that time, yes.
22 Q. I think you were shown some photographs of suspects.
23 Did those photographs include the man that you had seen?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Right. If we go to page [18063], the second half of
127
1 this, from:
2 "Didn't see anyone else with a Rangers scarf",
3 downwards.
4 Thank you. This is a note. I took you very briefly
5 to this before. This is the note made by the Director
6 of Public Prosecutions officer when you had a meeting on
7 30th October 1997 in the Bar library. What they have
8 noted you as saying is:
9 "Didn't see anyone else with a Rangers scarf. Tied
10 up tight to his neck. Think he was wearing a jacket.
11 "He was tall, jet black hair, fringe down - gelled -
12 clean shaven. He was in the landrover laughing.
13 I swung at him when he was in the landrover because he
14 was laughing, shouting 'Fenian bastard up the UV'.
15 "Can't say where he was kicking him."
16 When you went to that meeting, were you shown your
17 witness statement again, the one you had made on
18 8th May, or was this purely from your memory
19 A. It was purely from my memory.
20 Q. Then if we go to page [09105], we can highlight the text
21 of this. Let me just read through it and then we will
22 talk about it, if we may:
23 "On Friday 31st October 1997 at about 8.30 pm
24 I called around to the Hamill house ... I spoke to Fiona
25 and Diane. I had told them I had been to see the DPP in
128
1 Belfast and explained what happened."
2 We know that because we have just seen the note of
3 31st October:
4 "We got round to talking about the three persons
5 that got released that day and who had been charged with
6 the murder of Robert Hamill. I said I hadn't seen the
7 news. They had it on video and showed me it. I think
8 it was footage from the BBC which was on at 6.30 pm but
9 I'm not sure. It showed three males walking out through
10 a fenced area. Of the three males I recognised one as
11 the person that I had seen in the back of a landrover
12 and which the police had lifted. At the time of the
13 incident he was wearing a Rangers scarf. I pointed this
14 out to Diane and Fiona and both of them told me that
15 this person was called Forbes. I looked at the video
16 footage about three times and although I recognised him
17 the first time I am certain that this was the person
18 I'd seen on the night of the murder of Robert Hamill.
19 The video played at normal speed and it lasted
20 approximately twenty seconds."
21 Now, can you tell us how it came about from seeing
22 that video that you ended up making this statement?
23 How did you come to make the statement on 3rd November?
24 A. I honestly thought at that time that was one of the
25 fellows that was kicking at Robert.
129
1 Q. I understand. You saw the video with the Hamill family?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you shown the video again by the police or by the
4 DPP officers?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. If we go back to [81099], looking at
7 paragraph 30, what you say is:
8 "As a result of this identification," which is
9 seeing the video, "on 3 November 1997 I went again to
10 the DPP's office in Belfast and was shown 2
11 photographs of suspects at Portadown Police Station.
12 I picked out 1 person whom I recognised, and who was
13 the person I had seen on the video. I could not be
14 totally certain that this was the person I had seen in
15 the back of the Land Rover on the night of the incident,
16 but I thought that it was him. It was at this point
17 that I made my second statement to the police", which we
18 have just looked at.
19 Just help us with how good your memory was at that
20 point by 3rd November. Were you confused? Were you
21 certain?
22 A. I was confused.
23 Q. Can you tell us how it is you think you might have
24 become confused? Did anybody try to persuade you to
25 misidentify?
130
1 A. No, there was nobody tried to persuade me, no.
2 Q. I think what we will be told is that Dean Forbes, who is
3 the person you picked out on the video, does not look
4 anything like the tall, thin, black-haired man?
5 A. I thought that it was him.
6 Q. When you saw the man in the back of the Land Rover with
7 the scarf, how good a look did you get at him?
8 A. It was close enough.
9 Q. We don't need to look at it in your statement, but at
10 the end of your statement you tell us you made
11 a statement to xxxxxxxxxx. Do you recall that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know what happened to that?
14 A. No.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. That's all I want to ask you
16 about, Mr Prunty. It may well be that other people will
17 ask some more questions. Thank you.
18 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
20 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
21 MR ADAIR: If I may, sir.
22 Mr Prunty, I want to make it clear to you at the
23 outset that I am going to suggest to you that you have
24 not been entirely truthful today.
25 Do you understand me?
131
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, when was it you made your statement to
3 xxxxxxxxxx?
4 A. I'm not sure.
5 Q. What year was it?
6 A. I am not overly sure on that.
7 Q. Was it the same year as the incident occurred?
8 A. Yes, I think so. It was.
9 Q. Was it before or after you saw the PPS, the DPP in
10 Belfast?
11 A. I am not sure.
12 Q. Was it before or after you saw the video?
13 A. I think it was after, but I'm not sure.
14 Q. What was the statement about?
15 A. It was just what had happened on the night.
16 Q. Why was it that you were being asked to make it? Do you
17 know why?
18 A. I can't remember. I can't recall.
19 Q. Did it concern the identification of either Mr Forbes or
20 some other gentleman in the Land Rover?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did it refer to that at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, if you were describing what happened, did you not
25 describe in that statement the man that you say the
132
1 police took away from kicking at Robert Hamill?
2 A. I can't remember much about the statement, being
3 truthful, that I made to xxxxxxxxxx.
4 Q. Okay. Now if we go back, Mr Prunty, to Thomas Street at
5 the time you and your friends, D, E and F and Mr Hamill
6 and Maureen McCoy were coming down Thomas Street from
7 St Patrick's Hall, is it your clear recollection as to
8 where each of you were on the street; in other words,
9 who was ahead of whom?
10 A. I've a fair idea.
11 Q. When you say you have a "fair idea", does that mean
12 there is some doubt about it?
13 A. There is some doubt.
14 Q. What's the doubt?
15 A. Well, I wasn't sure if I was in front of Robert or not
16 or if Robert was in front of me.
17 Q. Why is that?
18 A. That's just ...
19 Q. You said in your statement, Mr Prunty, on 8th May of
20 1997 that Robert was on his own, 30 to 40 yards ahead of
21 D, E and F, and that D, E and F were ahead of you.
22 Now, is that right or wrong?
23 A. I think that's what happened, yes. It is that long ago
24 I am not overly sure.
25 Q. Did you tell the truth in this statement when you made
133
1 it on 8th May --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- a very short time after the incident occurred?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What gives you the doubt now?
6 A. It's that long ago.
7 Q. Is it your evidence, Mr Prunty, that nothing was said by
8 any of the group coming down Thomas Street to provoke
9 the Protestants at the bottom of the street?
10 A. I can assure you nothing was said.
11 Q. No words like, "Orange bastards", or, "Up the RA"?
12 A. No.
13 Q. We know from the statement of Mr Jones, which I think
14 you have been referred to already, Mr Prunty -- and if
15 I might ask, sir, that page [09111] be put up, please,
16 on the screen?
17 We anticipate there will be evidence given by
18 a Mr Jones giving the description, which I am not going
19 to go through with you again, which Mr Underwood has
20 gone through with you, of the three persons that
21 Mr Jones describes acting in a certain manner going down
22 Thomas Street. Do you remember being asked about that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you have told us that you accept that number (2)
25 fits you. Is that right?
134
1 A. No.
2 Q. I am sorry. Which fits you? Number (3). Sorry, it is
3 my fault. Number (3) fits you.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You have told us that number (2) fits D.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You have told us that number (1) did not fit Mr Hamill.
8 A. I said I wasn't sure.
9 Q. Well, was Mr Hamill approximately 5 foot 10? According
10 to the post mortem report he was 175 centimetres, which,
11 worked out in very rough terms, seems to me to be about
12 5 foot 10. So was he about 5 foot 10?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The post mortem report also describes him of average
15 build. Another way of putting that is medium build.
16 Was he of medium build?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am not going to bring it up on the screen, but if one
19 looks at any photographs available of Mr Hamill, did he
20 have short, dark hair?
21 A. Not dark hair, no.
22 Q. He didn't have dark hair?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What colour was it?
25 A. I would say it was dirty-fair hair.
135
1 Q. Do you agree, even if you are right, that that could
2 easily be mistaken at night-time for dark hair?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So do you agree that the description we have of number
5 (1), Mr Prunty, could fit Mr Hamill?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The description goes on at the bottom of the page to
8 describe male number (3), which fits you, as:
9 "Wearing a pale blue shirt, dark tie, black
10 trousers."
11 You have told us you were wearing a shirt. Was it,
12 in fact, a blue shirt?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you wearing a tie?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you wearing dark trousers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So does that description also fit you, Mr Prunty?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The description given again by Mr Jones describes that
21 there were two females. Let me ask you this: were there
22 two females in your company?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, if Mr Jones is right, and we anticipate the
25 evidence he will give, the scenario that occurred,
136
1 Mr Prunty -- and I am not just talking about Mr Jones;
2 Mr Jones coupled with a witness known as P, coupled with
3 a witness known as Woods -- the scenario that emerges
4 from a combination of all those witnesses is that
5 Mr Hamill ran down and punched somebody at the bottom of
6 Thomas Street. Did you not see that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why?
9 A. He didn't punch anybody.
10 Q. The scenario also, Mr Prunty, that emerges with
11 a combination of those witnesses is that it was you who
12 was shouting the sectarian slogans and others.
13 Now, were you, Mr Prunty?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The scenario I suggest to you, Mr Prunty, that emerges
16 from a combination of the statements is that the initial
17 aggressors -- and let me make it absolutely clear to
18 you, Mr Prunty, and anybody else listening, that I am
19 not suggesting that it condones or excuses in one
20 scintilla what happened to Mr Hamill -- do you
21 understand me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But the scenario that emerges was that it was you and
24 your friends that were the initial aggressors that night
25 coming down Thomas Street, both shouting sectarian
137
1 slogans and engaging in violence.
2 Is that not the truth, Mr Prunty?
3 A. Not true.
4 Q. Also, you are aware -- I think it was put to you during
5 the time your Inquiry statement was taken, Mr Prunty --
6 that a man fitting your description was seen by
7 a witness known as Jonathan Wright to be standing out in
8 the street taunting the Prods, saying, "Come on, come
9 on". Could that be you, Mr Prunty?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you agree that Mr Hamill was wearing a leather
12 jacket?
13 A. I am not sure, but I think he was wearing a leather
14 jacket.
15 Q. You think he was.
16 When was the first time you ever made the suggestion
17 that you were wearing a leather jacket?
18 A. Obviously, I was wearing a leather jacket.
19 Q. No, that you were wearing a leather jacket. When was
20 the first time you ever told anybody you were wearing
21 a leather jacket?
22 A. I don't know what you mean.
23 Q. You have told us today you were wearing a leather
24 jacket. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
138
1 Q. When was the first time you ever told anybody that?
2 A. I think I told it to the police.
3 Q. If you take a look at your statement, Mr Prunty, if you
4 turn it up at page [09101], and in particular, if you go
5 over to page [09104], and if you would highlight the
6 bottom half of the page, please, is this your statement
7 that you made to the police on 8th May, Mr Prunty?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you see in it where you describe your clothing?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "I was wearing a dark blue shirt and a pair of black
12 dress type trousers with black laced shoes."
13 Is that the description you gave of your clothing?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you make any mention of a leather jacket?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you give another description of your clothing in the
18 questionnaire? If you turn up page [08136], do you see
19 at question 7 -- if you would highlight question 7,
20 please.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "What were you wearing on the night in question?
23 "Blue shirt and black trousers."
24 A. Yes, and a tie.
25 Q. Beg pardon?
139
1 A. And a tie.
2 Q. Why is it, Mr Prunty, and for what reason is it you have
3 remembered you were wearing a leather jacket.
4 A. I just thought I was wearing a leather jacket at the
5 time. I wasn't really questioned on my clothing, but
6 I thought I was wearing a black leather jacket at the
7 time. I knew I was wearing a shirt and tie and black
8 trousers.
9 Q. Does it look like, if your statement is right, and if
10 the questionnaire is right, that if you had been wearing
11 a leather jacket, Mr Prunty, you would have told them,
12 wouldn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can the Panel then ignore this suggestion that you were
15 wearing a leather jacket because what you told the
16 police back in 1997 is more likely to be true?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It is more likely that you weren't wearing
19 a jacket. Is that it?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR ADAIR: Of course, that would simply confirm, Mr Prunty,
22 that the description given by Mr Jones of you and what
23 you were wearing is correct, because he makes no mention
24 of man number (3) wearing a leather jacket. You are
25 aware of that?
140
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So Mr Jones has not only got your physical description
3 correct, but also got the clothing you were wearing
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I know, subject to the Panel and subject to looking
7 back over the transcript, that some of your answers were
8 perhaps ambiguous in relation to the police action that
9 night, but that's a matter that I would have to look
10 more carefully at the transcript for.
11 I want to be clear about a couple things, Mr Prunty.
12 You were asked a question in terms. Was it because of
13 the police presence that the crowd backed off and you
14 said no? Is that the truth?
15 A. Could you ask the question again, please?
16 Q. You were asked a question which in terms was, "Did the
17 police have any bearing on the crowd backing off from
18 the attack?" and you told this Panel, "No, the police
19 had no bearing on that". In other words, they didn't do
20 anything to make the crowd back off.
21 Now, was that a truthful answer?
22 A. What I am trying to say is after -- when they were
23 kicking at Robert, none of the police came out -- they
24 came out after they were kicking at Robert.
25 Q. They came out after -- sorry, go on.
141
1 A. They came out after they were kicking at Robert.
2 Q. I will come to the kicking in a minute.
3 What I am asking you at the moment -- and I know it
4 is at a later stage than the kicking, but what I am
5 asking you is: do you stick by your answer that the
6 police had no bearing on the crowd backing off from
7 kicking Robert Hamill?
8 A. Yes, it had a bearing.
9 Q. It had a bearing?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, that's not what you told us earlier, Mr Prunty.
12 Why are you changing your evidence?
13 A. I am just not fully sure. It is a long time ago and
14 I am trying my best to answer questions the best way
15 I can.
16 Q. I suggest you are not, Mr Prunty.
17 A. I suggest I am.
18 Q. I want to suggest to you, and I want to make it clear to
19 you, you are answering questions in such a way as to
20 attempt to blacken the police actions that night. Do
21 you understand me?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So can we take it then now that the police were
24 successful in getting the crowd away from the assault on
25 Robert Hamill?
142
1 Now, do you understand that question? Can we now
2 take it, and can the Hamill family take it, most
3 importantly, that the police were successful in getting
4 the crowd away from the attack on Robert Hamill?
5 A. After the attack had happened.
6 Q. Can we take it that the police prevented any further
7 attack on Robert Hamill?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can we take it -- and again, I want you to listen to
10 this question very carefully, Mr Prunty -- am I right in
11 saying that during the attack on Robert Hamill, the
12 police came in and tried to break the fight up, to save
13 Robert Hamill?
14 Do you understand the question?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What's your answer?
17 A. No.
18 Q. If you turn up page [18062], please, which is the notes
19 of consultation, and if you would highlight the
20 paragraph, "Saw Robert getting dragged to the ground."
21 Now, before you start reading that, if you just
22 leave that to the side for a moment, do you remember
23 this consultation with the DPP?
24 A. Vaguely.
25 Q. Were you treated okay?
143
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were counsel okay with you and were the police okay with
3 you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were free to talk? You were not under any pressure
6 from anybody?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You told them the truth?
9 A. Yes, to the best of -- yes, yes.
10 Q. Did you tell them the truth?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Now, if you look at that paragraph, it starts off:
13 "Saw Robert getting dragged to the ground."
14 Is that right? Is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. "He was trying to protect himself before he went down.
17 D went to help. I watched what happened. I saw 15-20
18 people around Robert. Could see Robert -- not at
19 first but when he was lying on the ground. Anybody who
20 was there, 15-20, were booting at him."
21 Is all that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "I didn't know any of them - not even to see. D went to
24 help Robert. Saw him getting hit with a bottle - was
25 thrown at him. D and Robert no more than 6 feet apart."
144
1 Is all that true?
2 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
3 Q. "Some of the crowd were going over to D. Police then
4 came. Police got out of Land Rover when Robert was on
5 ground. Tried to get in to break it up. No effect -
6 wasn't enough of them."
7 So did the police, Mr Prunty, try to get into the
8 crowd to break up the attack on Robert Hamill? Isn't
9 that what you told the DPP?
10 A. After -- Robert had been attacked. Robert had been
11 attacked.
12 Q. I understand the attack had started, Mr Prunty.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Am I not right in saying that what you were saying to
15 the DPP was that, during the course of this attack, the
16 police came in and tried to break the crowd up? Is that
17 not what's there?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During the course of the attack. I am not suggesting,
20 Mr Prunty, that the police were there at the start of
21 the attack; in other words, on the street. Do you
22 understand me?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. It may be that we are in agreement on this.
25 A. Yes.
145
1 Q. I am not suggesting as per one of your answers --
2 I think your thoughts are that because of the very fact
3 that there were people coming down Thomas Street and
4 people on Market Street that the police should have got
5 out of the Land Rover before the attack.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That's what you said at one stage as your criticism of
8 the police. Isn't that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair, he has also said this in answer to
12 you about when the police were acting. He said after
13 the attack, which may carry a certain suggestion
14 implicit and you may want to grasp that.
15 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you, sir.
16 By that you mean after the attack had started,
17 I presume?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, so we are clear, and let's try to be absolutely
20 clear about this, and forgive me, Chairman. It is quite
21 important, so if I may just clarify with the witness
22 where exactly or what exactly you are saying.
23 You are saying that when the attack started -- do
24 you understand what I mean by started?
25 A. Yes.
146
1 Q. When the crowd attacked Robert Hamill first of all --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- the police were still in the Land Rover?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree with me -- I think you have agreed with me,
6 and you have read your notes of consultation -- that the
7 police came over during the attack and tried to break
8 the crowd up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tried to save the life of Robert Hamill?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What else would they be doing?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. They weren't able to do it because, as you say in your
15 notes of consultation, there wasn't enough of them.
16 Isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you go to what you are saying, Mr Prunty, it is again
19 confirmed in your statement. If you start at
20 page [09102], please, if you turn it up, and starting at
21 the last -- there is no need to highlight anything.
22 I am just going to read the last sentence, "I wasn't
23 able to do anything", and if you then go to [09103],
24 please, and if you will highlight the top half, please,
25 "for there were just too many of them."
147
1 Is that true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That's you in trying to get the people off Robert?
4 A. Drag them off, yes.
5 Q. "By this stage ..."
6 The use of those words "By this stage" means it had
7 happened. Isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That's what it means, "By this stage". So by the stage
10 you reached the crowd and tried to get the people off
11 the police are also on the scene. Isn't that what plain
12 English means in this statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "By this stage the Police had got out of the landrover
15 and were over at the crowd", which you would expect them
16 to do, Mr Prunty, wouldn't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If they were doing their duty faithfully and properly?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "There was either two Policemen and one woman or three
21 Policemen and a woman."
22 Is that your recollection?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "They ran in to try and stop it."
25 Is that true?
148
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The "they" is the police, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So once again, you confirm in your statement that the
5 police ran in to try to stop the attack on
6 Robert Hamill. Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "One of the Policemen actually pulled me back and as he
9 was doing this I saw another Policeman grab hold of one
10 of the fellas in the group that was kicking
11 Robert Hamill."
12 You go on to describe -- I will not go through this
13 because Mr Underwood has been through it -- the Rangers
14 scarf and so on and give a description of him
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, could it be, Mr Prunty, first of all, that it was
17 a policewoman who took this person, whatever he was
18 doing, away from the scene --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- rather than a policeman?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Although you say in your statement "policeman", the
23 evidence seems to suggest, subject to the Inquiry's
24 findings, that it was a lady known as Constable A who
25 was involved with the person with the Rangers scarf. So
149
1 you accept it could well have been a policewoman?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I want to suggest to you that at the time she took
4 him away, he was not actually involved in kicking, but
5 may well have been in the immediate area. Do you
6 understand?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I am not suggesting you didn't see him kicking, but at
9 the time she took him away, he was not actually involved
10 in kicking. Is that a fair --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that a reasonable possibility?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's the person then that, as you have told us, was
15 taken to the Land Rover --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- and put in the back of the Land Rover?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, how did you mix up Mr Lunt -- the person we all
20 know who was put in the back of the Land Rover was
21 Mr Lunt, who looks nothing like Mr Forbes. How did you
22 mix those two up?
23 A. I don't know. I must have been confused at the time.
24 Q. What confuses you in relation to identifying people?
25 The man that you picked out, Mr Prunty, on photographs
150
1 at the consultation with Mr Kerr -- I think it was --
2 was it in Portadown police station?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They showed you photographs and included in those was
5 a photograph of a gentleman known as Forbes. Isn't that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What colour of hair did he have?
9 A. I'm not sure.
10 Q. Did he look anything like a 6-foot man?
11 A. I was coming -- I thought he was one of the ones that
12 was -- I thought he was one of the ones that was kicking
13 at Robert.
14 Q. But you were identifying this person as the person who
15 had been in the back of the Land Rover, Mr Prunty.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Subject to the ultimate findings, we know that the
18 person in the back of Land Rover was probably a Mr Lunt.
19 Do you follow me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You give a description of this man in the back of the
22 Land Rover as being 6-foot tall with dark hair.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think at one stage in your consultation notes you
25 described -- was it gelled? Did you describe the hair
151
1 as being like gelled?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But the man you picked out as being in the back of the
4 Land Rover looked nothing like that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How can that be?
7 A. There must have been a mix-up.
8 Q. Well, it's some mix-up, Mr Prunty. You are identifying
9 people involved in a murder. I mean, did you know at
10 the time that you were potentially identifying someone
11 who might be charged with murder?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Well, then, how did you pick out somebody who, as
14 I understand it -- I have not seen the photographs
15 myself --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to say, Mr Adair, you may be
17 helped by seeing the photographs.
18 MR ADAIR: I asked Mr Underwood this morning if there were
19 photographs. Unfortunately, the Inquiry don't seem to
20 have them as of yet.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sure if they can be got --
22 MR ADAIR: We will possibly get them at some stage.
23 I understand, unfortunately, something like myself,
24 you are at a disadvantage because I can't show you the
25 two photographs. My understanding is that the two
152
1 people look nothing like each other. Yet, you identify
2 this person -- two people who look nothing like each
3 other -- as being the person involved in kicking
4 Mr Hamill. How did you do that?
5 A. I later said that I wasn't sure who, at the time.
6 Q. Pardon?
7 A. I later said at the time -- I don't know who I said it
8 to -- I said I wasn't sure.
9 Q. At the time, you said you were certain. When you made
10 your statement. When you made your statement of
11 3rd November of 2007 (sic) -- I don't know whether it is
12 possible for the IT to pick up a date, 3rd November 2007 (sic)
13 and we will see if we can find the statement of that
14 date.
15 In that statement, I suggest to you, Mr Prunty, when
16 you identified Forbes at the police station you said you
17 were certain that was him. Do you not remember saying
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Well, were you certain?
21 A. I thought I was certain at that time. I thought he was
22 one that was in the crowd that was attacking Robert.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: On our screens we have 3rd November.
24 [09105].
25 MR ADAIR: So we put this in context, you had been to see
153
1 the DPP on 30th October 2007. Isn't that right? You
2 had consulted with the DPP and given a description to
3 the DPP, to Mr Kerr of counsel, of a man with jet black
4 hair and a fringe down.
5 That's set out in the notes, sir, that we looked at,
6 at page [18062]. That's what you told the DPP on
7 30th October.
8 Then, on the following day, for some reason you go
9 to the Hamill household. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the reason for going there incidentally?
12 A. I think there was a documentary being made or something.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry? You think ...
14 A. There was a programme called "Counterpoint" being made.
15 MR ADAIR: So you went for some programme, but,
16 coincidentally then, at the same time you were shown
17 video footage from the BBC of three men being released
18 from prison?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In that video footage apparently was included Mr Forbes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You picked that man out as being the man that you had
23 the day before described to the DPP?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Well, did that man have black hair, gelled, a fringe?
154
1 A. No.
2 Q. How can that be, that one day you are describing the man
3 who is kicking Robert Hamill as having black hair and
4 the gel and the fringe, and you are giving that
5 description of this person, and the next day you are
6 picking out somebody completely different? How does
7 that come about, Mr Prunty?
8 A. I thought he was one of the ones that was in the crowd
9 that was attacking Robert.
10 Q. Well, are you saying you thought he was one of the ones
11 or are you saying he was the one with the Rangers scarf?
12 Pardon?
13 A. I am not sure.
14 Q. If you look at the statement, you will see you were sure
15 at that time, Mr Prunty. This is your statement of --
16 I am obliged to the IT people for bringing it up --
17 3rd November. If you would highlight the entire
18 statement, please [09105]:
19 "On Friday 31st October 1997 at about 8.30 pm
20 I called around to the Hamill house ... I spoke to Fiona
21 and Diane. I had told them I had been to see the DPP in
22 Belfast and explained what happened. We got round to
23 talking about the three persons that got released that
24 day and who had been charged with the murder of
25 Robert Hamill. I said I hadn't seen the news. They had
155
1 it on video and showed me it. I think it was the
2 footage from the BBC which was on at 6.30 pm but I'm
3 not sure. It showed three males walking out through
4 a fenced area. Of the three males, I recognised one as
5 the person that I had seen in the back of a landrover
6 and which the police had lifted. At the time of the
7 incident, he was wearing a Rangers scarf."
8 So we know you are talking about the same person.
9 You didn't see two people with Rangers scarves?
10 A. No.
11 Q. "I pointed this out to Diane and Fiona and both of them
12 told me that this person was called Forbes. I looked at
13 the video footage about three times and although
14 I recognised him the first time I am certain ..."
15 That's what I was saying to you a moment ago,
16 Mr Prunty:
17 "... I am certain that this was the person I'd seen
18 on the night of the murder of Robert Hamill."
19 So from describing a man on the 30th with black hair
20 and gel and the rest of your description, 6-foot tall
21 and so on, you have now switched the following day to
22 somebody who, as I understand it, is totally different.
23 How does that come about?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have the point by now, Mr Adair.
25 MR ADAIR: Thank you sir.
156
1 THE CHAIRMAN: We are not a jury.
2 MR ADAIR: No. You have made that clear at the outset, sir.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's twice now. Can we move on?
4 MR ADAIR: Will I leave it at that? Is there anything more
5 you want to say about that?
6 A. No, I just must have been confused about it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
8 MR ADAIR: Do you agree, Mr Prunty, that on this night you
9 had probably about ten pints?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you may be a big man and you may take a drink or
12 two, but does ten pints not even make you somewhat
13 drunk?
14 A. Yes. I wouldn't be -- I could remember what I was
15 doing, like, mostly.
16 MR ADAIR: Yes. Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY
18 MR McGRORY: Sir, if I may, I have some questions.
19 Mr Prunty, my name is McGrory and I act for the
20 Hamill family. If you don't mind, I have some questions
21 I would like to ask you.
22 It has been suggested by a witness -- and this has
23 been put to you already -- who lived in the flat above
24 Jamesons, that he heard shouting and he looked out the
25 window and saw people running down Thomas Street.
157
1 Now, for absolute clarity, is there any question as
2 to whether or not you were running down Thomas Street?
3 A. We weren't running down, no.
4 Q. Would there have been any need for you to be running
5 down Thomas Street?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, that same witness is expected to tell the Inquiry
8 that he heard these people shouting names or slogans,
9 anti-Protestant slogans. You have heard that
10 suggestion?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Even with a Land Rover at the junction, would that have
13 been a wise thing for a Catholic to do in Portadown?
14 A. No, you definitely wouldn't have been shouting it going
15 down that street, you know.
16 Q. What would the possible consequences be to have done
17 that?
18 A. There is a bar there, Jamesons have a bar there. It is
19 a Protestant area and you would not get Catholics
20 shouting that -- shouting slogans in that area.
21 Q. If I could perhaps take you to a little bit of your
22 evidence that you gave earlier in the day, I don't know,
23 sir, if that can be put up on these screens, but it is
24 at 96.1 of today's evidence, when Mr Underwood asked you
25 a question about that particular witness I am talking
158
1 about. Can that be done? If you would allow me
2 a moment?
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Individual lawyers can stop their LiveNote
4 and go back. What we can't do is display it on the
5 screen.
6 MR McGRORY: If I could ask everyone to click on the "stop"
7 button and scroll back to 96.1 of today's evidence? Is
8 that a big ask?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: 96.1, do you say?
10 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir: perhaps I should ask the question
11 now. At that point in the day, Mr Underwood drew your
12 attention to the statement of William Terence Jones in
13 which he described those people he saw running down
14 Thomas Street. Do you recall that exchange earlier
15 today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That particular witness, Mr Jones, gave a description of
18 a person at number (2) as the person who was
19 approximately 5 foot 8 inches in height, was of light
20 build, had dirty-fair hair, short, and was wearing
21 a grey jumper with a pattern all over it and was wearing
22 light-coloured blue jeans.
23 Now, Mr Underwood put all of those to you in the one
24 question and asked you if you accepted that that fitted
25 one of those people you were with. Do you recall that?
159
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said that it did.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You said that it fitted the description of D?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, just in the interests of clarity, I would like to
7 break -- there are a number of component parts to that
8 description. I would like to break it down to establish
9 whether or not you agree with all of those component
10 parts.
11 Is it correct that, to your recollection, D would
12 have been approximately 5 foot 8?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That he was of light build, in your recollection?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That he had short, dirty-fair hair?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, in terms of the jumper, are you saying that you
19 recollect what type of jumper he was wearing, or, when
20 you accepted this description fitted the description of
21 D, were you just talking in general?
22 A. Just talking in general.
23 Q. So it is not the case that you have a clear recollection
24 of what D was wearing on the night?
25 A. He was wearing a jumper. I wasn't sure what sort of ...
160
1 Q. You have no -- you are saying you are not sure what kind
2 of jumper?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you for that.
5 Now in terms of your own description --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we go back now to the ...
7 MR McGRORY: Sorry. Everybody may return by pressing
8 "continue". I show off my expertise.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR McGRORY: I want just to turn to your own description of
11 what you were wearing now.
12 Sir, I would like to refer the witness to a page of
13 the transcript of his interview with the Inquiry.
14 Unfortunately, I don't have a bundle number for it.
15 Perhaps I can do it in a more old-fashioned way?
16 Mr Prunty, you were interviewed by the Inquiry on
17 7th January 2007. Do you recollect that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. When you were interviewed on that occasion, you were
20 asked a question about what you were wearing, if you
21 will take it from me, fairly early into the interview,
22 within the first five pages.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your answer was:
25 "I think I was wearing black trousers, a blue shirt
161
1 and a leather jacket."
2 Then you went on to say:
3 "I think I was wearing a leather jacket."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So when you spoke to the Inquiry this time two years
6 ago, I am suggesting you were not dogmatic about that.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Of course, at that point, had you been made aware from
9 any source that there was somebody who was suggesting
10 that a man wearing a leather jacket had started the
11 whole rumpus by hitting somebody outside Jameson's?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So it is correct to say you were not in any way
14 inventing the fact that you remembered wearing a leather
15 jacket or you remembered wearing a leather jacket in
16 order to muddy the waters on that particular issue?
17 A. No.
18 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions.
19 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
20 MS DINSMORE: Just two points, Mr Prunty.
21 You were the boyfriend at that time --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you speak more closely into the
23 microphone?
24 MS DINSMORE: I apologise, Mr Chairman.
25 You were the boyfriend of Maureen McCoy?
162
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After you left St Patrick's Hall, did you stay in her
3 company?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you in her company when you met up with D, E, F and
6 Mr Hamill?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall any conversation taking place?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you recall stopping with them at all or them
11 stopping with you?
12 A. I stopped, but ...
13 Q. You stopped.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did your girlfriend stop with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did anyone speak to anyone?
18 A. Not that I can recall.
19 Q. Just so we are clear, you and your girlfriend meet four
20 people. You stop, but nobody speaks -- is that right --
21 about anything?
22 A. Not that I can recall.
23 Q. Did you just like wave at each other and walk on?
24 I mean, what was the purpose of the stopping?
25 Might it be, you see, that you stopped because F was
163
1 saying something to your girlfriend, which your
2 girlfriend remembers having been said, saying "Don't go
3 down there"?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No? So you don't remember that, but you don't remember
6 anything being said?
7 A. I can't recall.
8 Q. Do you not think it a bit odd just to stop, say nothing?
9 How did you decide to walk on?
10 A. I remember just stopping, but I don't remember what
11 happened. A crowd just came from the right-hand side.
12 It all happened that quick.
13 Q. So you walk on after you have stopped. You consider
14 that you walked on in a different position from what
15 your girlfriend considers.
16 Now, whatever occurred, it was quite clear nobody
17 attacked you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And nobody attacked your girlfriend.
20 A. No.
21 Q. In fact, whatever ensued, it happened very quickly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Whatever ensued, which happened very quickly, it was
24 such that in your mindset no-one was coming at you
25 because you were a Catholic up Thomas Street, because
164
1 no-one was coming at you at all. Isn't that right?
2 A. No. I don't know what you mean by that.
3 Q. Well, what we do know is that Mr Hamill was attacked --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- and that you were not, and that the attack happened
6 very quickly.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The nature of the attack, which happened very quickly,
9 is not one that would have led you to believe that this
10 is a group or a crowd who are coming to get Catholics up
11 Thomas Street, because they were not coming to get you
12 and they weren't coming to get your girlfriend, and you
13 were both Catholics up Thomas Street, one of only six
14 Catholics up Thomas Street at that time. Isn't that
15 right?
16 A. They were coming to get Catholics, yes.
17 Q. Nobody was coming to get you.
18 A. Well, I -- I could have been attacked too.
19 Q. But you weren't.
20 A. I wasn't.
21 Q. The circumstances were such that you felt it appropriate
22 to leave your girlfriend to go and take other action, so
23 you had a measure of comfort that these people were not
24 coming to attack your Catholic girlfriend up
25 Thomas Street, otherwise you wouldn't have left your
165
1 girlfriend. Isn't that right?
2 A. I went over to try to break the fight up.
3 Q. And you left Maureen?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Green.
7 Cross-examination by MR GREEN
8 MR GREEN: Sir, I have just one question.
9 Could the witness be shown his statement to the
10 police at page [09103]? It begins at [09101], but
11 [09103], please. If we can highlight the top half of
12 that statement.
13 Now, in that portion of that statement, Mr Prunty,
14 you deal with the assault upon Mr Hamill. Isn't that
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. By persons in the crowd?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You talk about the person wearing the Rangers scarf, and
20 then, further down, we have:
21 "When the police got involved, they seemed to back
22 off a bit."
23 By that, I assume you mean the crowd?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. "They didn't run away, in fact the most of them were
166
1 standing laughing."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. "By this stage my girlfriend, Maureen, had got in and was
4 cradling Robert Hamill's head in her lap."
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "When they were standing laughing at Robert there was
8 a couple of bottles thrown."
9 From your evidence today to the Inquiry is it fair
10 to say that when the police did, in fact, intervene --
11 whatever criticisms there might be of when they
12 intervened, but when they intervened and the assault on
13 Robert stopped, the effect of the police on the ground
14 was to stop any further assault upon Robert? Isn't that
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, in fact, to stop the crowd getting towards Robert.
18 Isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR GREEN: Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB
22 MR McCOMB: Could the witness be shown [81097], which is the
23 statement he made to the Inquiry? If we could highlight
24 paragraph 23, please. Just reading there -- do you have
25 that in front of you, Mr Prunty?
167
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall making this statement and being questioned
3 and that statement being made then?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You have signed that, I think. That is your -- you
6 adopt that, do you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "A policewoman lifted a male, whom I had seen in the
9 crowd around Robert, and put him into the Land Rover.
10 I think the male had short hair and was wearing
11 a Rangers scarf tied in a knot. I did not actually see
12 the man with the Rangers scarf kick Robert, but he was
13 amongst the crowd who did so."
14 Is that your recollection as you wish it to be today
15 then?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Indeed, that was taken from a transcript of your
18 interview --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- which is at paragraph 44. I need not put you through
21 that.
22 Now, may I just ask you -- you have described how
23 you were in the thick of this for a while, this melee
24 and this fighting. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
168
1 Q. Does it appear that you received, yourself, no injury of
2 any sort?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If we may just go back to paragraph 21, please, very
5 briefly, and, highlighting that, [81097], you say:
6 "Including the hardcore group of 10 or 12 ... the
7 total crowd was about 50 or 60 in number. Of these
8 only about 15 were Nationalists and the rest were
9 Protestants."
10 You say you recognised perhaps Colin Hull, perhaps
11 Dermot or Vincent McNeice. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Apart from D, E and F, obviously, and yourself, who were
14 these other people and how did you identify them as
15 being Catholics if there was a melee going on?
16 A. D, E, F, myself and Maureen, Colin Hull and
17 Dermot McNeice -- I think Thomas Mallon was there
18 earlier.
19 Q. Thomas Mallon had long since gone and was never involved
20 in anything. We can be absolutely sure of that.
21 Absolutely.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Coming back to the fifteen Nationalists, Catholics, you
24 mentioned there --
25 A. I think that's all I can remember, what I said there.
169
1 Q. How did they identify -- they were not wearing uniforms.
2 How did you know, amongst all these people who were
3 fighting, that some were Catholics and some were
4 Protestants? If that was what was going on, in fact.
5 A. Well, there was no Catholics attacking any Protestants.
6 Q. I am sorry? In any event, you have a picture in your
7 mind, do you, of about 15 people being Nationalists?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What were they doing, these 15 people?
10 A. Just -- everybody was just standing about, just trying
11 to get the thing sorted.
12 Q. Was this before or after the police had come?
13 A. It was during when the police had come.
14 Q. I see. All quiet by this stage, was it?
15 A. Yes, it had quietened down a bit.
16 Q. So, as we have heard, if it was the case that there were
17 still taunts going on from both sides, as were heard and
18 witnessed by an ambulance man, would you disagree with
19 that?
20 A. I would disagree. As far as I can remember, there were
21 no taunts coming from the Nationalists.
22 Q. I suggest to you just in conclusion, Mr Prunty, that
23 your memory really is somewhat vague. You may be doing
24 your best to reconstruct things to fit in with things
25 you are being asked, but is it not fair your memory was
170
1 a pretty hazy, even a few days later when you filled in
2 your questionnaire?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR MCCOMB: Thank you very much.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
6 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: I have a few more questions for you.
8 In answer to questions that I asked you, you said --
9 I am paraphrasing here -- that while Mr Hamill was being
10 attacked, the police got out and came over to try to
11 help get people off him, and that your complaint about
12 that -- if "complaint" is the right word -- is that you
13 think they could have done that before, earlier in the
14 attack.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that still your belief?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The next matter is how effective the police were.
19 You gave one answer to my friend and then he took
20 you to a document in which you said the opposite, and
21 you weren't asked to deal with both of those.
22 When the police came over to try to get people off
23 out of the kicking of Mr Hamill, did they have
24 an effect? Did they actually get people off
25 A. They did, yes.
171
1 Q. Completely effective so as to stop the kicking?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I want to move on to the black leather jacket that you
4 told the Inquiry interviewer you were wearing on the
5 night.
6 Can you remember what sort of leather jacket it was?
7 Long or short?
8 A. It was a short -- it wasn't like a bomber jacket. It
9 was like a dressy-type jacket, not a bomber jacket.
10 Q. More like a suit jacket, but in leather?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Finally, I want to ask about the description and
13 identification of the person in the Land Rover and the
14 video. From the video that you saw of people being
15 released from the Magistrates' Court, could you see how
16 tall the people were? Do you recall whether these were
17 full length shots or what?
18 A. I'm not really sure. I just seen them coming out.
19 Q. Okay. You told us before you weren't shown a photograph
20 of the one whom you saw in the Land Rover when you
21 initially went to see the police for identification
22 purposes --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- but you were shown a photograph of the one later on,
25 whom you saw in the video. Is that right?
172
1 A. Yes.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: I have nothing else. Thank you.
3 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Will you just have a look, please, at
5 [81097], please, the paragraph we had highlighted
6 before?
7 Do you see the last two sentences say:
8 "I also saw Thomas Mallon earlier in the night, but
9 think he had left by the time the attack took place.
10 I cannot really remember any others."
11 Just concentrate, will you, on Thomas Mallon? What
12 leads you, or led you, to think that he had left by the
13 time the attack took place?
14 A. I remember -- I know he was there, but I know he was
15 away on. He ...
16 Q. Was he anywhere to be seen when you were walking down
17 the street --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- or seeing a group of people?
20 A. No.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Prunty. That
23 concludes your evidence. You can go now.
24 A. Thank you.
25 (The witness withdrew)
173
1 Administrative Matters
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, perhaps I can just catch up with where
3 we are on the evidence?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I think people were conscious that I had
6 intended, if possible, that we should call a number of
7 the witnesses who had been in the Jamesons Bar or in the
8 flat above it by now.
9 There were practical difficulties in getting them
10 here this week, which I hope will be resolved by us
11 rescheduling them for quite early next week.
12 What we have left for this week is witnesses E, F
13 and D. I am proposing to call E and F tomorrow and D on
14 Friday, which will make Friday quite a short session.
15 I am proposing to give everybody firm call lists for
16 next week on Friday morning, obviously subject to
17 change, because one of the aims of this Inquiry is to
18 cause as little disruption to witnesses as possible, as
19 is consistent with the effective running of the Inquiry.
20 So with that, I invite you to rise for the session
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10.30 tomorrow morning.
22 (3.42 pm)
23 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
24
25 --ooOoo--
174
1 I N D E X
2
3
MS MAUREEN PATRICIA MCCOY (sworn) ................ 6
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 6
Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 60
5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 61
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 69
6 Cross-examination by MR GREEN ............. 80
Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB ............ 81
7 Further cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ... 83
Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 83
8
MR COLIN MARTIN JOHN PRUNTY ...................... 84
9 (affirmed)
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 84
10 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 131
Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 157
11 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 162
Cross-examination by MR GREEN ............. 166
12 Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB ............ 167
Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 171
13 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 173
14 Administrative Matters ........................... 174
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
175
