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Hearing: 19th May 2009, day 51
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 51
1 Tuesday, 19th May 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Alan Neill, please.
4 MR ALAN KEITH NEILL (sworn)
5 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Neill.
7 A. Morning.
8 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
9 I have some questions for you. It may well be that, at
10 the end of that, other people will have some follow-up
11 questions.
12 Can I start by asking your full names, please?
13 A. Alan Keith Neill.
14 Q. If we look at the screen, we should see a document
15 coming up which starts at page [81030]. That's
16 11 pages long. Can I ask you to keep your eyes on the
17 screen while we scroll quite quickly through those
18 11 pages?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the witness statement that you kindly made for
21 the Inquiry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it true?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1
1 I want to ask you, first of all, about the
2 expectation that there was of a crew going on public
3 order duties over the midnight period on
4 26th/27th April 1997.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you expected, as a crew, to stay in the Land Rover
7 or to get out and walk about, or to stay in it with the
8 doors open or shut? Were there particular
9 understandings of what you were going to do?
10 A. There was no particular understandings. It was normal
11 we would have remained in the Land Rover.
12 Q. So you had done this duty before, I take it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it normal to sit in places where you could see where
15 you thought trouble would come from?
16 A. Yes. There is a number of places in the town centre.
17 Q. As a matter of general principle, if you were on public
18 order duty there and, say, a fight flared up, what would
19 be the expectation? You would get out and try to stop
20 it, or call for back-up, what?
21 A. We would normally get out and try to stop it.
22 Q. Were there any situations in which you would, for
23 example, get out of the Land Rover and just split up and
24 have two of you stand on one corner to see what was
25 going to happen and two of you stand somewhere else?
2
1 A. Is this when something had actually happened?
2 Q. No, just while you were patrolling.
3 A. Not normally, no.
4 Q. Can we have a look and see what the vehicle positions
5 look like? We have a virtual reality suite and we have
6 something called police vehicle positions and cordon.
7 If we can have a look at that.
8 If we flick on the police vehicle positions and
9 cordon and the vehicle location map for a start, that's
10 this one, and we see LR1, LR2 and LR3.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We have heard evidence that LR1 is a lay-by and you were
13 parked there for a while. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Did you have any doors open while you were there? Do
16 you recall?
17 A. I don't believe so, no.
18 Q. Okay. We know from your statement that you say LR2 was
19 a position where a male, who turns out to be Mr Mallon,
20 crossed, mouthing something.
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. LR3 is where you ended up because he was approached by,
23 amongst others, Stacey Bridgett and Dean Forbes.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. I think this mapping comes from a reconstruction which
3
1 you attended in June 1997. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. So if we go back to the police vehicle positions and
4 police cordon and look at the video through the windows,
5 we can go to LR3 and go to a driver's eye view.
6 This is, so far as we can tell, what could have been
7 seen from the side. If we go back to the other driver's
8 eye view, as far as we can tell this is what somebody
9 could see looking forward.
10 How does that fit with your recollection of what
11 sort of view you would have had?
12 A. That would be correct.
13 Q. Now, just taking us back to those various positions and
14 the views you would have had, was LR1 at all a useful
15 place to be?
16 A. Yes. You could see the junction. You could also see
17 further down the town towards Boss Hogg's and the
18 barriers.
19 Q. Okay. You tell us in your statement that what you were
20 proposing to do when you left LR1 was drive down to the
21 bottom of the town and come back up.
22 A. Yes. There was people starting to come up on the bus
23 outside the -- on the right-hand side of the street
24 towards us. I was simply moving round to go down to the
25 bottom of the town and see what was happening there,
4
1 because there was quite a few people coming up just in
2 dribs and drabs.
3 Q. Trouble flared, did it, from time to time, at the bottom
4 end of town?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can I put to you something that a witness has told us,
7 which is that he would -- he had experience of being in
8 the town centre in Portadown, at this sort of time in
9 1997 that is, and there would be fights between
10 Protestants and Catholics quite regularly there, and he
11 said police Land Rovers were commonly there and the
12 police would just sit and watch it flare up and flare
13 out again?
14 A. No, that's not my experience of it at all.
15 Q. Do you know who we are calling P40?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. One of the reserve constables in the back of the
18 Land Rover?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He suggested that when you were at LR1, that, in fact,
21 the back doors were open and some of the members of the
22 crew were having a smoke. Does that ...?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is that something you remember not happening or --
25 A. I can't remember it happening. P40 would have been
5
1 a smoker, but I don't think -- as far as I am aware,
2 I wasn't out of the Land Rover at that time.
3 Q. Then can you take us through? You drive off from LR1.
4 We know, because we just looked at the map, that it is
5 LR2 where Mr Mallon comes up.
6 Can you tell us in your own words your recollection
7 of what happened with Mr Mallon?
8 A. As we moved off from LR1, Mr Mallon walked across from
9 Thomas Street towards Woodhouse Street and he mouthed
10 something at us. My intention at that time was just to
11 go down the bottom of the town and back up.
12 As he walked across, he mouthed something at us.
13 I couldn't make out what he had said. I asked my
14 observer to -- she opened her door and spoke to him.
15 Q. When she was speaking to him, could you hear what was
16 being said?
17 A. No. She related to me.
18 Q. Can you tell us whether that's because it was so noisy
19 in the Land Rover or whether he was particularly badly
20 spoken or whatever?
21 A. Well, you can't -- you know, you can't hear in the
22 Land Rover. It is hard enough to hear people that are
23 in the back speaking to you.
24 Q. Then he leaves the side of the Land Rover and we know
25 that there is a coming together between him and at least
6
1 two other youths, which included Forbes and Bridgett.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see that happening?
4 A. As -- Reserve Constable Cornett had spoken to him. He
5 had said there was friends coming down Thomas Street.
6 We were in a position -- I was in a position where
7 I could see up Thomas Street. There was no sign of
8 anybody in Thomas Street up as far as the bend.
9 At that stage, my intention was still to travel on
10 down to the bottom of the town and back up to
11 Thomas Street. As we moved off, Bridgett and that came
12 up on the Northern Bank side and, in doing that,
13 Mr Mallon was walking down -- had just entered
14 Woodhouse Street. As he was doing that, then they
15 started shouting or saying something to him.
16 Q. How far had he got up Woodhouse Street?
17 A. He wouldn't have been that far at that stage. I think,
18 to the best of my recollection, they had said something
19 to him before he actually got into Woodhouse Street, but
20 he had kept walking down Woodhouse Street.
21 Q. So did he turn back?
22 A. Whenever they went into -- the two of them went into
23 Woodhouse Street --
24 Q. So they followed him up?
25 A. They followed him down. As I watched that, then
7
1 I turned the vehicle into LR3 and watched them go down
2 and approach him. He had stopped or turned back at that
3 stage. We just watched what would happen. They went
4 down to him, but -- there was still words being said
5 between them, but we couldn't say what was being said.
6 Q. Constable Cornett had a shout at them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you?
9 A. No. I couldn't -- I would have been shouting across
10 past her and I don't think anybody would have heard me
11 through the ...
12 Q. Did that pass over very briefly or was there a period of
13 a minute or two while they were having this
14 confrontation?
15 A. No. That -- that was basically over. As soon as he
16 shouted at them, it was sort of more or less cut dead
17 and they walked back up.
18 I remained in that position and just kept a watching
19 eye down in case they went back down to him again,
20 rather than me moving off.
21 Q. Did he walk off up Woodhouse Street?
22 A. As far as I can remember, he walked off.
23 Q. Then those two, Bridgett and Forbes, came to the
24 Land Rover. Is that right?
25 A. Yes. We waited -- we were still in that position and
8
1 waited. They sort of came up behind us and then up to
2 the side of the Land Rover.
3 Q. I know we will come to the point where somebody pulls at
4 you and you get out of the Land Rover --
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. -- but what I am interested in at the moment is timings.
7 Can you help us about how long do you think it might
8 have been between you stopping to watch them approach
9 Mr Mallon and them coming to you?
10 A. It was only a matter of maybe a minute or -- you know,
11 it was -- it wasn't a great length of time between them.
12 Q. Then you -- we know there was a period in which they
13 approached the Land Rover.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Reserve Constable Cornett had her door open and they
16 were talking to the crew --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- to some members of the crew. How long did that last
19 before you were pulled out?
20 A. I couldn't honestly say exactly with any degree of
21 certainty, you know. It was a very brief conversation.
22 Q. Can you tell us why you stayed there?
23 A. As I said, I had originally stopped there because they
24 had gone down towards Mr Mallon --
25 Q. Sure.
9
1 A. -- in case they had gone back down again, but there was
2 no other reason for me having waited there at that
3 stage, no.
4 Q. Obviously the question is this, isn't it: you knew that
5 you had been warned that Mr Mallon's friends were going
6 to come up Thomas Street, you knew that people were
7 coming up in dribs and drabs from the town where you
8 knew trouble might flare, and you are parked in
9 a position where none of you can see down Thomas Street?
10 A. Yes. As I say, I had already checked Thomas Street
11 whenever Mr Mallon had said that to us.
12 Q. But a few minutes -- I am so sorry.
13 A. Yes. Sorry.
14 Q. Did it occur to you that things could be fizzing behind
15 you?
16 A. No. In hindsight, you know, I wish I had done a lot of
17 other things, you know.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: St Patrick's Hall was beyond the bend, wasn't
19 it?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You would know that, of course.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: P40, one of the reservists who was in the
24 back, has said in a witness statement to us that before
25 you were pulled out of the Land Rover, or pulled at, he
10
1 heard and saw a group of about 25 people walking near
2 Wellworths towards Thomas Street and he pointed that out
3 to you.
4 Have you any recollection of any noise, any warning,
5 anything unusual before you were pulled out?
6 A. No. There was no warning. I don't have any
7 recollection of P40 giving me any warning of that
8 either.
9 Q. Let's come to you. Was your door ajar or shut?
10 A. No, it was shut.
11 Q. Were they not locked, these Land Rover doors?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Tell us about the event, then, of you being pulled at.
14 A. I was actually wearing my body armour. So it was very
15 difficult to turn. Whenever the door was opened, I was
16 pulled out by the top strap, the shoulder strap, and the
17 man was just saying, "You sat there and watched that
18 happening".
19 Q. Describe the man for us?
20 A. I can't just offhand. If I refer to my statement ...
21 Q. Mr Atkinson believed that it was Mr Mallon; that is, he
22 thought it was the same person who had crossed in front
23 of the Land Rover before.
24 What do you say to that?
25 A. I don't believe so. It may have been, but I couldn't
11
1 honestly say whether it was or not.
2 Q. Mr Mallon, to be fair, denies it was him, but
3 Mr Atkinson is quite clear.
4 A. I don't believe it was the same person.
5 Q. Okay. Obviously, that was a strange thing to have done,
6 somebody pull you out of a Land Rover and say, "You have
7 sat there watching it happen"?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was your reaction?
10 A. I didn't know what he was talking about. You know,
11 there was no -- we hadn't had any warning of this
12 actually -- this supposed fight going on at that time.
13 There was no -- whenever you looked back at it, there
14 was no indication from the two that were standing
15 outside the Land Rover at the time that there was
16 anything happening either.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. So it was utter surprise whenever I was pulled out.
19 Q. Can we look at page [08463]? It is part of your
20 examination at the Hobson trial. If we look at line 7
21 there, you say:
22 "He just -- he was still shouting at me and there
23 was -- as far as I can remember, there was a female
24 somewhere behind him shouting at us as well, the same
25 sort of thing, 'Everybody sat and watched this
12
1 happening'."
2 Is that your recollection now?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you have one person confronting you. You have
5 a female somewhere in the background.
6 A. She was just behind him, probably about 10 or maybe
7 20 feet, somewhere in that sort of range.
8 Q. Was there anybody else around that vicinity?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear anybody banging on the Land Rover?
11 A. No, there was no banging on the Land Rover. It was just
12 simply the door was opened and I was pulled out.
13 Q. If somebody had banged on the side, would that have been
14 audible inside?
15 A. It would, yes. There was perspex in the windows.
16 Q. You have told us in your statement and you have said
17 before in the Hobson trial, for example, that when you
18 got out, there was no fighting. That's still your
19 evidence, is it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Cat calling?
22 A. There was cat calling. I couldn't see anybody --
23 everybody was standing up. There was nobody on the
24 ground. There was no fighting going on. They just
25 seemed to be standing shouting at each other. There was
13
1 absolutely no fighting going on at all.
2 Q. Give us a snapshot. How many people did you perceive?
3 A. I perceived, at that stage, probably between 30 -- 20
4 and 40, something in that region of --
5 Q. How --
6 A. -- numbers.
7 Q. I am so sorry, I keep talking over you.
8 A. It is okay.
9 Q. Give us some idea of how equal the sides were. Was this
10 a few Catholics and large number of Protestants, or how
11 was it --
12 A. It seemed -- perspective-wise, it seemed -- I don't even
13 know how I got to the number -- there seemed to be
14 approximately eight people would have been Catholic and
15 the rest would have been on the Loyalist side, you know.
16 Q. Whereabouts was this grouping?
17 A. They were in the mouth of Thomas Street.
18 Q. So on the Number 7 Bakery side or the Eastwoods?
19 A. Just right in that junction, right in the junction.
20 Q. Okay. Is it possible they had been fighting before you
21 got out and this was just a pulling back, a temporary
22 pulling back?
23 A. I believe there may have been something happened to
24 start that and possibly there was -- somebody had swung
25 something to start with, but ...
14
1 Q. If we can have a look at page [00686] -- to you fair,
2 you should start at page [00684]. It is a HOLMES
3 version of some notes taken from you. I will come later
4 to the question of debriefing of you.
5 What's your evidence about who took these notes? Do
6 you have a recollection of it?
7 A. Do you know what date that was taken?
8 Q. It is not clear.
9 A. The 23rd?
10 Q. The date along the top is a HOLMES date. It may just be
11 the date it was put on HOLMES.
12 The two candidates we have are Detective
13 Sergeant Lawther and Detective Sergeant Bradley.
14 A. Yes. I spoke with Detective Sergeant Lawther in the
15 following week. He had taken notes. I think it has
16 possibly been signed by Detective Sergeant Bradley.
17 I hadn't received it just.
18 Q. What I want to take you to is page [00686]. If we
19 highlight the first half of it, I can pick it up on the
20 second line. This is what you were just telling us in
21 any event:
22 "There was general cat calling with words like
23 'Fenians' and 'Prods' being used. That took place at
24 the junction of Thomas Street to the central
25 reservations. These 30 or so crowd were male. I can't
15
1 say if there was female in that group. The eight or ten
2 were male and female. They seemed to generally pushing
3 about with no actual fighting going on. Someone out of
4 the two groups took a dart at the opposite group.
5 I can't say which group this person darted from. There
6 were at about 3 or 4 fights going on after the person
7 darted at the opposite group. Those fights were taking
8 place in that same area and moved slightly up a couple
9 of yards at the Market Street. The fights were between
10 smaller groups of people who had broken out of the
11 groups of 30 and 8 to 10 people. At that stage I heard
12 at least two people shouting to get an ambulance.
13 I don't know who those two were. I couldn't see anyone
14 injured at that stage to require an ambulance."
15 Is that your recollection now?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I know how difficult it is to give timescales for these
18 things, but can you help us on whether there was more
19 than a minute or so between you getting out of the
20 Land Rover and you hearing people shouting for
21 an ambulance?
22 A. I couldn't honestly give you any time on that. Whenever
23 we got -- whenever I was pulled out of the Land Rover,
24 I was confronted with the crowd cat calling. I moved to
25 the back of the Land Rover and P40 and Reserve
16
1 Constable Atkinson got out. I went to move forward and
2 Atkinson said, "Hold on a wee minute", and held my arm.
3 As he did that, fights broke out across the street.
4 Q. It was quite soon after that that people started calling
5 for an ambulance. Is that fair?
6 A. At some stage. I can't honestly say what time that
7 happened, but there was certainly -- I was not aware of
8 anybody on the ground at that time or prior to those
9 fights actually starting.
10 Q. According to your statement, you went over with
11 Mr Atkinson to a position outside Eastwoods to get
12 somebody out of a fight where he was outnumbered?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you eventually saw Mr Hamill on the ground, he was
15 outside Eastwoods, wasn't he?
16 A. He was just -- he was sort of at the Eastwoods side,
17 yes, but I can't say exactly where.
18 Q. When I asked Mr Atkinson about this, what he said was
19 Mr Hamill couldn't have been on the ground at that
20 point, because, basically, he would have had to run over
21 him to get to -- with you to get to this point --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- where you were pulling somebody out of the
24 outnumbered crowd. What do you say about that?
25 A. I think we sort of marked on one of the maps where we
17
1 thought the two persons were lying.
2 Q. We can go back to the maps, if you like.
3 A. I think he was more in the middle of the road. This was
4 more like directly outside Eastwoods.
5 Q. That's what I want to get at.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Again, without looking at maps particularly --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- can you tell us --
10 A. But there was no nobody on the ground at that stage.
11 Q. Obviously, you are dealing here with a sudden flame-up.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. There is a small number of police officers, a large
14 number of people cat calling and then fighting.
15 What do you say to the prospect that two people were
16 on the ground or at least one person was on the ground
17 but you were simply too busy watching the fighting and
18 getting yourself involved to see it?
19 A. We didn't get involved in the fight. You know, the
20 fights hadn't been going on at that time. So there was
21 definitely nobody on the ground before those fights
22 actually started in front of us.
23 Q. But you have the inexplicable calls for an ambulance,
24 haven't you? Because there were two people calling for
25 an ambulance when you didn't see anybody injured. You
18
1 accept that, don't you?
2 A. I accept there was people calling for an ambulance.
3 I can't tell you exactly when those people started
4 calling for an ambulance.
5 Q. But what is clear, isn't it -- and I want to be as clear
6 as possible about this -- is that when you heard at
7 least two people calling for an ambulance, you didn't
8 see anybody injured?
9 A. I can't -- no, I don't believe I did at that stage.
10 Q. We know that one of the women who was coming up
11 Thomas Street says that her sister was squealing, "Get
12 an ambulance".
13 Can you help us with whether it was a female voice
14 you heard?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Again, if you want to look at maps, we can do, but the
17 impression we are getting is that one of the people,
18 that is Robert Hamill, ended up on the ground outside
19 Eastwoods.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The other person we are calling D ended up on the ground
22 more outside Number 7 Bakery.
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. That's your recollection, is it?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
19
1 Q. Did you get a chance to check both of them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We know that although D suffered injuries, he was able
4 in the end to get up and walk to the ambulance. Were
5 you aware of that?
6 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. The last time I spoke to
7 him, he was -- the girl attending him, he was still on
8 the ground.
9 Q. Mr Hamill, of course, was much more seriously injured,
10 as we now know?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You have told us and you have said at various stages
13 that when you checked Mr Hamill, his breathing was
14 either raspy or laboured. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You thought he had been stabbed. Is that it?
17 A. No. That's what I immediately thought. I checked over
18 him. There was no sign of any blood or any wounds like,
19 you know, in that manner. There was like a pool of
20 liquid at or about his head, and it was only when
21 I checked that, it was actually like -- as far as I can
22 remember, it was not blood, it was like alcohol, and
23 I remembered that -- a bottle having been smashed in
24 that area. I remember seeing two people heading to each
25 other, one who had a bottle or part of a bottle.
20
1 Q. I presume that you didn't have a great deal of time and
2 leisure to examine Mr Hamill. Would that be fair?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Can you give us the impression you had when you had
5 finished looking at him? Was it an impression that he
6 had a serious injury?
7 A. I really just couldn't tell, you know, what injuries he
8 may have had.
9 Q. Was he breathing in a laboured way throughout?
10 A. It was just sort of raspy, you know, whether it was --
11 just a raspy sort of breath, but he was still breathing,
12 you know.
13 Q. Were you conscious of either of these men being put into
14 the recovery position?
15 A. No, but I think Mr Hamill had sort of -- I may have been
16 there after R/Con Silcock had done that. I couldn't
17 actually say.
18 Q. I want to ask you now about the calls for assistance.
19 We know that Reserve Constable Cornett called for
20 back-up and she also called for ambulances?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did that have anything to do with you or was she doing
23 that off her own bat?
24 A. She was doing it off her own bat, but I think she was
25 probably being told to do so at the same time.
21
1 Q. Did you make any radio calls yourself?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I want to move on to Allister Hanvey. We know that you
4 went back to the police station after the crowd
5 subsided, that you went off duty and you were called
6 back later on in the morning --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- and made a statement. That statement makes no
9 mention of Allister Hanvey.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You accept that, I take it, but you had seen him there,
12 hadn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I want to ask about the way in which you were told to
15 make statements. Were you asked to make statements
16 about everything you had seen or how was it put?
17 A. We were just asked to make a statement in relation to
18 what had happened. It possibly wasn't the ideal way of
19 doing it, but ...
20 Q. What had you seen Allister Hanvey doing?
21 A. I have no doubt I seen him at the scene, but I can't
22 recall I ever saw him doing anything to D or
23 Robert Hamill.
24 Q. In that case, let's deal with the way in which the
25 situation was dealt with. Before back-up arrived --
22
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- you and Mr Atkinson were out, as it were, on one side
3 of the Land Rover in the thick of it. Is that fair?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. P40 was round at the Woodhouse Street side?
6 A. Well, he was -- the three of us were lined up at the
7 back of the Land Rover before the fighting started.
8 Where P40 went to at that particular point, I would
9 say he would have gone into the fights to try to split
10 things up as well.
11 Q. Although Reserve Constable Cornett came out of the
12 Land Rover once or twice, her primary obligation was to
13 stay with the Land Rover and act as the radio officer,
14 wasn't it?
15 A. Well, she kept trying to get the back-up, yes.
16 Q. Now, before back-up arrived, were you able to make much
17 impression on the crowd?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Once the back-up arrived, we know there came a point
20 where police formed a sort of line and pushed people
21 back up towards West Street.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Between the period in which you were trying to make
24 an impression, but being unable to, and the point where
25 there were sufficient numbers to form a line, how did it
23
1 go? Was there a period where back-up was arriving and
2 piling in and the situation changed gradually or did it
3 change suddenly?
4 A. No, it changed gradually. It changed gradually. It
5 wasn't as if everybody came at once.
6 Q. Now, in that period, we know, of course, from your
7 statement that you saw people kicking at Mr Hamill on
8 the ground and you identified, in due course, Hobson
9 doing that.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I don't need to go into that. Were there other
12 occasions where you saw anybody kicking or kicking at
13 either of the men on the ground?
14 A. No.
15 Q. We have had a Catholic witness who tells us that he,
16 helped by police officers, pulled kickers off Mr Hamill.
17 Did you see anything of that?
18 A. Not that I can recollect, no.
19 Q. This is the odd thing. Perhaps you can help us with
20 this. We have every officer that we know of at the
21 scene --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- and none of them will say that they pulled kickers
24 off Mr Hamill. So either Mr Prunty has it wrong or for
25 some reason officers did pull kickers off Mr Hamill and
24
1 don't want to talk about it.
2 Can you help us with this at all?
3 A. I simply have no recollection of that. I have made the
4 statements that I have made in relation to it. There is
5 possibly more information in my head than I know of, but
6 I haven't been able to bring that forward.
7 Q. Okay. Did you -- the four of you in the Land Rover, did
8 you talk about this on the way back to the station?
9 A. Possibly did, but I can't recollect anything particular.
10 Q. Were you conscious at that point, as you were going back
11 to the station, that this had been a serious assault?
12 A. Well, it was serious, yes, because the ambulance had
13 taken two away that were unconscious. That's what my
14 opinion was at the time.
15 Q. Were you conscious that you might get the blame?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Even though people had shouted at you to that effect?
18 A. No. I do regret, in hindsight, not having done things
19 differently. I mean, it goes through my head two or
20 three times every week -- I have sleepless nights and
21 everything else -- as to what may or may not have
22 happened if we had done something differently, but,
23 I mean, I just simply can't say what may have happened.
24 Q. Tell us more about that. What do you think you might
25 usefully have done?
25
1 A. There is any number of ways the whole thing could have
2 changed. For example, if we had got out originally when
3 Mr Prunty had said to us, it may have turned out
4 completely differently.
5 I can't say what -- I am not fully au fait with all
6 the information that has come out within the Inquiry,
7 but, I mean, things may have -- maybe Mr Hamill wouldn't
8 have died, you know. Also, it could have been worse.
9 There is so many things that could have happened.
10 It is not unusual for -- when you are in a position
11 like that, that people are trying to pull the guns off
12 us. That's another thing we have to consider whenever
13 we are in that -- normally we don't, because we have the
14 guns on us all the time, but it has happened before
15 where guns have been pulled off us. So things could
16 have been a lot worse as well as being -- instead of
17 being here with just Mr Hamill having died from it, it
18 could have been worse.
19 You know, it is something I have to live with every
20 day and I go through it. I can only imagine what the
21 family go through.
22 Q. Can I ask you about the duty sergeant and the duty
23 inspector who turned up at the scene?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. They turned up a little bit later than the first back-up
26
1 I think. Were you conscious of them arriving?
2 A. I remember the sergeant arriving, but not -- I can't
3 give you exact times as to when that there -- certainly
4 I was aware of both of them being at the scene at
5 different times.
6 Q. Did you have any chance to tell them what had been going
7 on?
8 A. We told them what had happened to start with, but you
9 were still trying to deal, you know, with an ongoing
10 situation at that time with a large crowd which were
11 still not under control.
12 Q. I think it is only when the sergeant arrived that you
13 were able to start forming a line. Is that right?
14 A. I think by the time he had arrived, he had also brought
15 the ones that were doing security at the station with
16 him as well. You know, there were larger numbers there
17 at that stage.
18 Q. And there were one or two riot guns. Is that right?
19 A. Yes. I think there was two possibly.
20 Q. We have had a witness who was in one of the flats in
21 Thomas Street who gave us a version of events that
22 involved at some point your Land Rover turning round and
23 moving -- and being -- facing, that is, the opposite
24 direction.
25 What happened when you actually left? Did you turn
27
1 it round or did you move straight off? Can you recall?
2 A. The Land Rover would have been -- it was pointing down
3 the town on the correct side of the road. It would have
4 just been a matter of going down the town. I don't
5 believe we would have gone up towards the church and
6 West Street.
7 Q. No reason to do that?
8 A. No, because as far as I mind, whenever we got the crowd
9 moving, they all sort of -- we got them up West Street
10 to the barriers there. I don't believe the Land Rover
11 was moved again.
12 Q. We know that the MSU turned up a little later on and
13 there were quite a few of those. Do you know whether
14 they had a Land Rover?
15 A. They possibly did. I can't honestly say whether they did
16 or not.
17 Q. Okay. I want to move on to the aftermath and deal with
18 how it is that the information that the officers at the
19 scene got itself into the hands of detectives.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. To start with, what did you expect would happen once you
22 left the scene? Did you expect that you would be
23 debriefed at the station or that you would be asked to
24 make statements when you got back?
25 A. Well, whenever we were told to go back to the station,
28
1 it was still ongoing at that time with the MSU, and the
2 inspector and sergeant were still up at the barriers
3 holding those ones back. We had just been told to
4 finish at that stage.
5 Q. Obviously, you thought there had been a serious assault.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You told the sergeant when he came what, broadly
8 speaking, had happened.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did nobody ask you before you went off, "Well, tell me
11 more about the ambulance. Tell me more about the
12 assault", anything like that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So you were just allowed -- in essence, told to go off
15 duty?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Ordinarily, where you are on duty and you witness
18 a crime --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- how does translate itself? How does that get itself
21 into the hands of CID? Do you make notebook entries or
22 talk to CID? How does it go?
23 A. For the likes of a robbery or something like that?
24 Q. Yes. You actually see it?
25 A. No, well, it's not that normal that we actually see it
29
1 happening.
2 Q. Or you turn up to a road traffic accident -- let's be
3 more prosaic -- and you take details of it and there is
4 something to be investigated.
5 Do you pass that up the chain to a sergeant or
6 inspector, or do you go straight to a CID officer? How
7 does it go?
8 A. Normally you'd just have gone back and done the
9 paperwork, the preliminary reports, saying that you had
10 been out at accidents or thefts or whatever, just do
11 a preliminary report saying that it is being
12 investigated. There is no debriefing, sort of thing,
13 for the likes of normal duties.
14 Q. Okay. In this case I think you went back to the police
15 station at 8 o'clock or so in the morning. Is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes, on --
18 Q. I am so sorry.
19 A. You are okay.
20 Q. You were told to make a statement. No question then of
21 debriefing. Is that right?
22 A. No, there wasn't.
23 Q. Then we have been hearing from detectives, in particular
24 Sergeant Bradley, that he made it his business to go
25 through the statements with the four of you who had been
30
1 in the Land Rover the next morning, the 28th. Do you
2 recall that?
3 A. I can't recollect that per se. I do recollect a sort of
4 debriefing with the DI on the Monday or Tuesday.
5 Q. That's Mr Irwin?
6 A. Yes, where the four of us from the Land Rover and
7 R/Con Murphy, who was in our section as well, he was
8 involved in it. I can't recollect now -- there was
9 probably quite a few sort of meetings like that.
10 Q. Okay. Do you think it was a week or so later that you
11 saw Sergeant Lawther? Is that right?
12 A. I think it was the Thursday, that Thursday.
13 Q. That's the notes we have been looking at?
14 A. Yes, I believe that's the same ones.
15 Q. You told us a number of times that you think probably
16 things are still locked in your head that you can't
17 bring forward.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you help us about whether you have ever, prior or
20 since this occasion, been at an incident where you have
21 had a full debriefing and that has unlocked things for
22 you?
23 A. Previously?
24 Q. Or since.
25 A. Well, there was one previous to that where it was
31
1 a punishment beating in Belfast here. There was four of
2 us involved in it. After the incident, the four of us
3 sat down and went through what had happened. It was
4 sort of protracted, waiting for an ambulance and things.
5 There were two people detained at the time or were in
6 the area at the time, but we had gone through the
7 evidence, what had actually happened, each of us giving
8 our own opinions as to what we recollected and made our
9 statements from that.
10 None of the statements, you know -- everybody likes
11 to think that we collude with everything, but
12 everybody's varied in some way or other, whatever was
13 said or what somebody was doing. It was a natural way
14 of doing things. You recollected more, because whenever
15 you are in a situation like that, you can't remember
16 everything. You know, somebody has maybe seen something
17 just from a slightly different perspective from you. It
18 only takes them to say something for you to remember
19 having seen it, you know.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 There is only one other question I am going to ask
22 you and I asked it of other people at the scene, and it
23 is this: were you in any way motivated by any sectarian
24 sympathy you may have?
25 A. No, and I have helped various members -- various people
32
1 with injuries and everything else. It doesn't matter
2 what religion you are.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: All right, Mr Neill. Thank you very much.
4 A. Okay.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you help me about one or two things? We
6 have been told this junction is a flash point.
7 A. Yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a flash point because you have the risk
9 of the Loyalists coming up from the bottom of the town
10 and the Republicans coming down Thomas Street?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: There are, it seems to me, two things which
13 may be a potential for trouble. One is there is
14 a hostility between the two factions?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Secondly, those who meet at the junction on
17 a Saturday night are very likely to include quite a good
18 number who have too much to drink and their temperatures
19 are inflamed.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: While they are, so to speak, on their own or
22 with their own, there is no problem --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: -- unless they fall out among themselves.
25 The problem is when they meet, isn't it?
33
1 A. Well, the problem is when they meet, but the fact is
2 that on other occasions we have been there where there
3 is not a fight as such as has gone out, but there is
4 arguing amongst themselves. A bit of pushing and
5 shoving has gone on.
6 I have actually seen it where one guy is going,
7 "That's my mate", he goes. "Hold on, he is a Fenian".
8 He says, "But he's my mate, you are not at work now".
9 You know, that's the kind of attitude -- it's very
10 segregated, especially at the weekend. They are out of
11 work. There you are, you have it, where they are the
12 best of buddies at work, but come Saturday night ...
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Although there is not always trouble, there
14 is that potential for trouble. Is that fair?
15 A. There is a couple of -- there is sort of at either end
16 of the town as well.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well --
18 A. Probably that junction is more renowned for it.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We have to focus on what happened at this
20 junction.
21 A. Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, can we just see what had happened in the
23 way of people's movements between Mr Mallon coming and
24 telling you there were people coming down from
25 St Patrick's --
34
1 A. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and your seeing that there was trouble?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, you wouldn't be able to see
5 anybody coming from St Patrick's until they got round
6 the bend.
7 A. Yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: For them a left-hand bend. Now, between your
9 being told that and your being pulled out of the
10 Land Rover --
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- trouble had already begun. What must have
13 happened was that, for one thing, people coming up from
14 the town had reached the junction, or up the town had
15 reached the junction, but also people from St Patrick's
16 had got down on the junction side --
17 A. Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- of the bend and out to the junction.
19 Now, that had happened without you seeing it
20 I think.
21 A. Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We have heard evidence that there were people
23 in High Street poking their heads round the corner to
24 look up Thomas Street and then pulling them back again.
25 If that happened, that was something you hadn't
35
1 seen?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: After Mallon's warning, you were still -- and
4 would, but for the other two fellows coming up -- going
5 to drive down to the bottom of the town and then come up
6 again.
7 Wouldn't it have been sensible just to wait until
8 the people came down Thomas Street to the junction, just
9 to make sure there was no clash?
10 A. In hindsight, yes, it would have been.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Was that more important than seeing what
12 a group of Loyalists might be doing among themselves?
13 A. Well, it isn't just Loyalists that use the two takeaways
14 that were open there at night. I mean, there was fights
15 down there as well.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.
17 A. You know, so ... you also have the same problem at the
18 other end of town where they come out from Bennetts and
19 there is maybe ones coming up from or ones going down
20 through the McGowan Buildings' car park for a fight in
21 the car park there. People are going down towards the
22 tunnel from the Oak Bar. So it wasn't just one point.
23 You can't -- you know, if we had sat there and nothing
24 had happened while something else was happening down the
25 bottom of the street, you know, it's ...
36
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Which was the greater danger, conflict at the
2 junction or conflict down at the bottom?
3 A. Looking at that time now, it was definitely the conflict
4 at the junction.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: If you had been asked before that night
6 "Which is the likeliest spot for trouble: the junction
7 or down where Boss Hogg's and those places are?", how
8 would you have answered the question then?
9 A. Probably at the junction, yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: At the junction.
11 Did you think of driving the Land Rover across to
12 the corner, probably where the bakery is, so that people
13 coming up from the town and people coming down from the
14 club could see that the police were there and be
15 discouraged from any trouble?
16 A. Well, my intention was just to go down to the bottom of
17 the town and up to that junction. I wasn't intending on
18 stopping down at the bottom of the town. I was
19 intending on coming back up to the junction. There was
20 no straightforward way of getting across at that point.
21 The kerb was quite high. It would probably have been
22 a foot high or something in the regions of that, so you
23 couldn't have got the Land Rover across there to the
24 junction.
25 Possibly you could have reversed back, you know,
37
1 from where we were actually stopped.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: And then just made a right-hand turn --
3 A. No, you couldn't -- there is no --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- just to the corner?
5 A. No, just reversed back so you could see up Thomas Street
6 again.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean there were kerbs in the way of
8 crossing from one side of the junction to the other?
9 A. Yes. Down the centre of the street there is a central
10 reservation which is -- as I say, the kerbs are quite
11 high on it. It would be --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: That continues right across the junction,
13 does it?
14 A. It is not a straight-across junction. There is
15 a pedestrian crossing and there is bollards across where
16 the pedestrians cross over.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. Can you say how it is you missed the
18 people coming down Thomas Street into your view and
19 actually getting to the junction?
20 A. I believe that must have happened in the time between
21 Mr Mallon saying to us and us pulling into LR3. There
22 was no-one on Thomas Street at the time. There was
23 people walking up past Thomas Street from Boss Hogg's and
24 Market Street, dribs and drabs, but there was nobody in
25 Thomas Street.
38
1 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but, of course, they would come round the
2 corner.
3 A. Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Did Mallon's warning at the time make you
5 think, "We have got to be vigilant"?
6 A. No. We were at the -- no. In hindsight, yes, I should
7 have taken more consideration of what had happened, but
8 at that time our intention was to stay there.
9 We weren't disappearing anywhere else, you know,
10 other than going back round to the junction on the other
11 side of the street. That was my intention as the
12 driver.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it, looking back, sensible that any time
14 should have been taken chatting to Stacey Bridgett and
15 Dean Forbes?
16 A. It is hindsight. What can I say, you know?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: It was a distraction, I suppose?
18 A. It was a distraction.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Pardon?
20 A. It was a distraction. I obviously have to think of the
21 thing: did they come up purposely to distract us from
22 this happening? There is maybe different ways of
23 looking at --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, there are many ways of looking at what
25 happened.
39
1 A. Yes, you know.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr McGrory?
4 MR McGRORY: Do you want to take a break, sir? I don't
5 intend to be very long. I am happy to proceed.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you happy to continue for another
7 fifteen minutes or so?
8 A. Yes.
9 Questions from MR McGRORY
10 MR McGRORY: My name is McGrory and I represent the family
11 of Robert Hamill, as you probably know.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I want to make it clear, Mr Neill, the case I am going
14 to make to you is a fairly simple one, which is that
15 really what happened here was that, most likely, while
16 the conversation was going on between yourselves in the
17 Land Rover and Forbes and Bridgett, that that is the
18 most likely time at which Robert Hamill and his cousin D
19 were attacked and felled to the ground and that they
20 were most likely on the ground when you got out of the
21 Land Rover and you missed it.
22 Now, in view of the questions that the Chairman has
23 asked you and your evidence that you have given to the
24 Chair through questions from Mr Underwood, are you
25 prepared to accept at this stage that that is
40
1 a possibility?
2 A. No, not from -- I can appreciate the fact that the two
3 were assaulted and what happened, but at the time we got
4 out of the Land Rover, there was no-one on the ground as
5 far as I can recollect.
6 I mean, I have gone through it I don't know how many
7 times. There was no sign of anybody on the ground.
8 There was no call for an ambulance whenever we were
9 being pulled from the Land Rover. That was some minutes
10 later, you know.
11 Q. I am going to suggest to you, in fact, it was a very
12 few minutes later. There is a distinct possibility
13 that -- a probability, I am going to suggest to you --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- and we will go through the evidence again in
16 a moment, but that these people were on the ground when
17 you got out of the Land Rover and you didn't see it.
18 A. Well, certainly I didn't see -- I can't say that I seen
19 them being felled at any stage, but from my recollection
20 of getting out of the Land Rover, I cannot say there was
21 anybody lying on the ground at that time.
22 Q. Well, let's just have a look for a little bit, please,
23 at the conversations that you had with Bridgett and
24 Forbes. Now, Mr Forbes gave an account of this
25 conversation to the police when he was arrested on
41
1 10th May. Without going to it necessarily, let me just
2 tell you roughly what he said went on in that
3 conversation.
4 There was a conversation involving Stacey and
5 himself about Stacey possibly joining the army or the
6 RAF. Do you remember that?
7 A. No, I can't recollect that.
8 Q. You don't remember that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And that Stacey had recounted that he had decided to
11 leave school and that he was working for Jamesons at the
12 time. Do you remember that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. It is at page [07062] of the bundle.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us what this document is?
16 MR McGRORY: Yes. This is the transcript of the interview
17 of Dean Forbes on 10th May 1997.
18 Forbes is telling the police what you were talking
19 about at the Land Rover:
20 "[A policeman] was asking Stacey would he not join
21 the army or something like that there, the RAF, and
22 Stacey just turned round and said that he had decided to
23 leave school and he was working for [blank]. And then
24 he just says -- he says, 'Are you working?' and I says,
25 'Yeah, a painter'. He says, 'I might get you out some
42
1 time', he said, to do a job for him.
2 "This is the policeman said that."
3 He suggested that was P40.
4 A. I have no recollection of that. I remember somebody
5 saying they were a painter. They had been at the Coach
6 that night and they had spoken to the person who had
7 bought the Seagoe Hotel at that time. Somebody had
8 bought the Seagoe Hotel and they were trying to get
9 a job painting the hotel or something like that.
10 Q. There was talk about him doing some work as a painter?
11 A. Yes, I recollect that. I think that's --
12 Q. He had been looking for work in the Coach Inn.
13 A. Yes, it was the Coach or the Seagoe, I think, maybe.
14 Q. Indeed Stacey Bridgett recounts, both to this Inquiry
15 and to the police when he was arrested, that there was
16 some banter between him and the female police officer
17 about his clothes.
18 She commented that he was wearing a Ralph Lauren
19 shirt and asked him how he got those, "They are
20 expensive clothes" and things like that. Do you
21 remember that part of the chit chat?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Well, he has given evidence about that. We will hear
24 from Constable Cornett about that. He told police that
25 at the time he was arrested on 6th May. It is at
43
1 page 07216 of the bundle. I am not sure if it is
2 necessary --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: We will leave that until Constable Cornett
4 comes.
5 MR McGRORY: Yes, I think we will leave that until
6 Constable Cornett comes.
7 I think there was also evidence there was a bit of
8 banter with her that she was married or engaged. She
9 had a ring on. He was saying to her, "Are you mad,
10 getting married?". Do you remember any of that?
11 A. It seems quite possible. I have no recollection of
12 that.
13 Q. I have to suggest to you that this exchange between
14 Forbes and Bridgett went on for some time, perhaps as
15 long as maybe five minutes or so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This was quite a lengthy exchange. Do you accept that?
18 A. No, I don't. I was just agreeing with your statement
19 there, but, no, I don't know. I can't say how long it
20 went on. I don't believe it went on for five minutes.
21 Q. Well, I am suggesting to you, in fact, it did, and that
22 during the course of that time while you were
23 significantly distracted in a conversation that went,
24 not just between you and these people, but
25 Constable Cornett was involved in it, as indeed was
44
1 P40 from the back of the Land Rover.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He was also involved in this exchange?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You are all involved in this conversation?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you accept you were all involved in this
8 conversation?
9 A. We had all spoken at some stage, yes, but that doesn't
10 say that it went on for five minutes.
11 Q. The man comes over and pulls the door of the Land Rover
12 and everybody is agreed on this, that he says, "You sat
13 there and watched this happen"?
14 A. Who is "everybody"?
15 Q. Forbes and Bridgett agreed that that happened.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Others in the Land Rover agreed that happened.
18 A. That we sat and watched this happening?
19 Q. No, no.
20 A. That's what you said.
21 Q. They are agreed the man came and pulled open the door of
22 the Land Rover and said that.
23 A. I think I already said that to Mr Underwood. I agreed
24 with that.
25 Q. Do you accept somebody is unlikely to have done such
45
1 a thing if something significant hadn't happened?
2 A. I can only see -- tell you what I saw. Whenever I got
3 out, there was nobody on the ground. There was no
4 fighting going on at that time either. I can't put it
5 any clearer than that.
6 Q. Are you absolutely telling us the truth about that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You see, because not only did the guy who came over to
9 the Land Rover say that, but during the course of the
10 following events you were accused maybe three times of
11 doing nothing while something happened. Isn't that
12 right?
13 A. Three times? Who? Sorry, who is that?
14 Q. At least twice. There is a woman who also says to you
15 when you are out of the Land Rover that you had done
16 nothing.
17 A. There was the woman standing behind Mr -- the
18 gentleman -- the man that pulled me out. She was
19 shouting at the time.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. There was also, yes, possibly --
22 Q. That, I suggest, is a second person accusing you of
23 doing nothing.
24 A. Sorry. Yes, that would have been a second person.
25 There was two, whatever, did that and --
46
1 Q. The third time is, whenever you are over with Mr Hamill
2 on the ground, a woman says that again.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Will you accept that three times you are accused of
5 doing nothing while something happened.
6 A. Yes, I accept that. I accept that I am accused of it.
7 I don't accept that that is what happened.
8 Q. You were accused of it on the spot.
9 A. That doesn't make any difference. You know, they can't
10 see what we were seeing at that particular time. Is
11 anybody -- they weren't sitting in the Land Rover to be
12 able to see what was going on. We couldn't see from the
13 Land Rover what was happening. If we had, we wouldn't
14 have been sitting in the Land Rover.
15 Q. This is, in fact, my point, Mr Neill, that whatever
16 happened happened while you were in the Land Rover and
17 you either couldn't or didn't see it?
18 A. Yes, but it still doesn't stop the point that they
19 weren't -- those people weren't on the ground whenever
20 we got out of the Land Rover.
21 I mean, you can put it to me as many times as you
22 like, but they weren't on the ground. As far as I can
23 recollect, whenever I got out, there was nobody on the
24 ground. Everybody was standing and everybody was cat
25 calling and shouting and then the fight started.
47
1 Q. Can you help us as to what it is that had happened that
2 caused these people to accuse you of doing nothing while
3 something had happened?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You just can't help us at all?
6 A. How can I help you? I can't. I have told you exactly
7 what has happened from my perspective of what I have
8 seen and what I can recollect.
9 Q. Well, you see, as a policeman who is there specifically
10 on public order duty, would you not have said, "What
11 happened? What is it happened? Why are you pulling me
12 out of the Land Rover?"
13 A. Yes, but there was no signs of any fighting having gone
14 on at that time. Basically, as soon as we had got out,
15 within a number of seconds the fighting started. We
16 didn't have the chance to go "Excuse me. What was
17 exactly happening here?"
18 Q. Why not? You get out of the Land Rover. There is
19 nothing happening. Why not immediately turn to the
20 person and say, "What are you talking about?"
21 A. You just didn't have the time to do that. I mean, you
22 know, in hindsight, yes, "Right. Exactly what happened
23 here?". Meanwhile, everything is going on in the
24 background.
25 I mean, everybody seems to think we should have had
48
1 more than enough time to get people's names, addresses,
2 what they were wearing and everything else. You just
3 couldn't have done that. Whenever that fight started
4 within seconds of us getting out, that was it.
5 I appreciate that something has happened beforehand.
6 Whether -- where it happened and when it happened,
7 I don't know.
8 Q. You see, in an answer to Mr Underwood you have told the
9 Inquiry that, when you went back to the police station,
10 you were not conscious of being at some risk of being
11 accused of neglect.
12 That was your answer a short while ago. We have it
13 at --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- page 25 of today's transcript, line 15. I will read
16 it out to you. You said:
17 "Answer: Well, it was serious, yes, because the ambulance
18 had taken two away ... That's what my opinion was at the time."
19 You were asked:
20 "Question: Were you conscious that you might get the
21 blame?"
22 You said:
23 "Answer: No."
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Now, I am going to suggest to you that having been
49
1 accused three times of doing nothing while something
2 significant had happened on the spot --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- you must have been very conscious, when you were
5 asked to account for yourself back at the police
6 station, that you were at risk of some criticism.
7 A. It is just like -- for example, if you go -- if you have
8 an accident, most people will say that the other car was
9 going over the speed limit. Very rarely actually is it
10 the case. Their perspective on the incident, because
11 they have not been involved in that kind of thing before
12 is different because it happens very quickly.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you are being asked whether
14 criticism was apparent --
15 A. Yes. Well --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: -- but whether you thought, "I have been told
17 this three times. I suppose there might be some
18 criticism".
19 A. What I am trying to say is, from our point of view, we
20 hadn't done anything wrong. We had tried our best --
21 done our best at that time.
22 People said we hadn't -- we had sat there and
23 watched things -- watched it happen. Okay. If you take
24 that as they have said that, they are saying we
25 haven't -- we sat there and watched it happening. What
50
1 I am trying to say is it is like people saying, "This
2 boy was driving down the road at 70 miles an hour when
3 he crashed into me". It's not -- it's not right.
4 When people look back at the thing, then sometimes
5 they can see it properly but, I mean, people ... I am
6 not getting it across properly here.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you are perhaps concentrating on
8 whether you were at fault rather than whether you had
9 any reason to think that people would, rightly or
10 wrongly, blame you.
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like a break now?
13 A. I don't mind.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We will break off for fifteen minutes.
15 (11.45 am)
16 (A short break)
17 (12.00 noon)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory.
19 MR McGRORY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
20 Constable Neill, now when we took a break, what
21 I was asking you was whether or not you were conscious,
22 when you went back to the police station on either
23 occasion, either immediately after the incident at
24 4.00 am, and in particular again when you were brought
25 back at 8.00 am --
51
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- or 7.00 am or whatever time it was, whether or not it
3 was in your mind on either of those occasions that you
4 might be criticised for having missed an assault.
5 Now that's the question, because remember that you
6 have accepted that you were at least conscious of the
7 fact that someone had made those criticisms --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- a woman, whether it was the same woman twice, and
10 a man on the spot.
11 So will you now answer the question, which is
12 whether or not you were conscious that you could be
13 criticised when you went back to the station?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. Would you look, please, at page [08547]? This is
16 a page of the transcript of your cross-examination at
17 the trial of Marc Hobson by Mr xxxxxxxxxx, QC, who
18 represented Mr Hobson at the trial.
19 Now, he asks you:
20 "Question: So you wrote your notebook in the station
21 as well?
22 "Answer: Yes.
23 "Question: At that stage, am I right in saying
24 that you knew that there was at least one person who had
25 been badly injured?
52
1 "Answer: Yes, that is correct.
2 "Question: Am I right in saying that you also knew
3 at that stage that there was some suggestion that the
4 police had sat and watched this happen and had done
5 nothing?
6 "Answer: Yes, my Lord, that is correct."
7 So I am suggesting to you that you answered in the
8 trial that you were aware, when you made your statement
9 and wrote up your notebook in the police station, of the
10 criticisms?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, I can feel Mr Adair twitching in his seat here.
13 I know what he is going to say.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I think your earlier question still had
15 an ambiguity about it. Can I just ask this: you are not
16 being asked whether you had done something to be
17 criticised for --
18 A. No, I appreciate that.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -- but were you aware that a criticism might
20 be made? Do you see the difference?
21 A. Oh, yes, yes.
22 I had no feeling at that stage whenever I went back
23 to the station. At 4 o'clock, whenever I went back on
24 the Sunday, the Sunday afternoon, one of my inspectors
25 came to me and said, "I have statements here said you
53
1 sat and did nothing". It was at that point he said he
2 had statements from a local priest saying we had sat and
3 watched it and done nothing. That was the first time we
4 actually then realised that there was criticism, but
5 certainly not whenever we went back to the station that
6 night or the following morning. That was on that
7 afternoon.
8 Q. I want to focus on the second time you went to the
9 police station, which is between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock
10 in the morning --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- when you were recalled by Constable Godly.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's the point at which you wrote out your
15 statement --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- and the others had left -- Reserve Constable Atkinson
18 had left by then --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- but the others were still there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. CID had asked you to make statements.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, I am suggesting to you that the answer you gave in
25 the trial of Hobson was, at that point, you were
54
1 conscious that there were criticisms?
2 A. No, I wasn't. I was aware of the comments that were
3 made that night, yes, but you are asking me if I was
4 conscious --
5 Q. Not whether you accepted the criticisms, but that when
6 you sat down to write out your statement, you knew in
7 your mind that there were people criticising you even
8 then.
9 A. Yes, but it wasn't until later that day that we actually
10 realised that there was -- those criticisms were being
11 made into a complaint.
12 Q. That's a different matter.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's a different matter.
15 What I am saying is that you had to have been
16 conscious that you could possibly be the subject of
17 a complaint or be more severely criticised when you
18 wrote your statement, because people had complained to
19 you on the spot?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Now, I want to turn to your statement of 27th April,
23 because within this statement -- I am going to show you
24 the passage -- there is a suggestion you had seen
25 Robert Hamill in some altercation with a fellow with
55
1 a bottle after you got out of the Land Rover.
2 A. I can't say that it was Robert Hamill. Yes, I know what
3 you are referring to.
4 Q. That will significantly shorten this element of my
5 questioning of you once we get that clarity. Can I take
6 you to that passage?
7 A. Yes, certainly.
8 Q. It is on page [06334], which is page 3 of your
9 statement. It begins about the middle of the page:
10 "I then remembered ..."
11 About a third of the way down. Now, what you have
12 said in your statement up to this point is that you got
13 out of the Land Rover and then you recount how you were
14 immediately engaged in pulling a Nationalist away from
15 trouble --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- and bringing him over to Woodhouse Street. Then you
18 say you go and look after Reserve Constable Atkinson,
19 who you were afraid -- who was also in trouble.
20 A. He was -- yes.
21 Q. Then you spot the bodies.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You go over and there are two bodies. You then say:
24 "I then remembered having seen a bottle smashed in
25 this area. I then realised that it was alcohol on the
56
1 ground and that I seen a male, early 20s, going to lift
2 a piece of glass. This was not the same person who was
3 lying on the ground. He had been coming from the church
4 side towards the glass going to lift a piece and
5 a person, who I believe was the injured male, running at
6 him."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "I am not sure where I was or at what stage this was in
9 the whole event."
10 So what you are saying in your statement of
11 27th April is at the point where you spot Robert Hamill
12 lying on the ground you then have a memory --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- of having seen him at some point earlier, but after
15 you got out of the Land Rover, running after a chap with
16 glass?
17 A. It was -- I can't say that it was definitely Robert.
18 I seen -- I remember seeing something happening, which
19 may have been that same thing. In all likelihood, it is
20 probably the same thing, but I can't say for definite it
21 was him.
22 Q. Can I respectfully suggest to you that what you are
23 saying in this statement is that that was Robert Hamill.
24 He had been coming from the church side towards the
25 glass, going to lift a piece:
57
1 "... and a person, who I believe was the injured
2 male ..."
3 So in your statement, which you wrote out when you
4 were recalled --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- you have said you believed you saw Robert Hamill
7 chasing this chap with the glass.
8 That's what you have said. You have said you
9 believed it.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I am suggesting to you that that is nonsense.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. That it --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me. I don't think he says here he
15 saw a man he believed was Robert Hamill chasing the man.
16 MR McGRORY: Well, running at him.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no, no, no. If you just go back:
18 "I then remembered having seen a bottle smashed ...
19 I then realised that it was alcohol ... and that I seen
20 a male, early 20s, going to lift a piece of glass. This
21 was not the same person who was lying on the ground.
22 He" -- and that seems to be speaking of the man who got
23 the piece of glass --
24 A. Yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: -- "had been coming from the church side
58
1 towards the glass going to lift a piece and a person,
2 who I believe was the injured male, running at him."
3 But not the injured man running at him with a piece
4 of glass.
5 MR McGRORY: No, I don't believe I suggested that. I am
6 suggesting to you that what you were saying was that the
7 injured male, who has to have been Robert Hamill --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- had no glass, but he is running at the chap with the
10 glass.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's what you are saying you believed you had seen
13 here?
14 A. Yes. The person coming from the direction from the
15 church down towards Thomas Street was the one with the
16 glass.
17 Q. Yes. Do you see you have put that in as a memory at
18 this point? When you go over to the man on the ground,
19 you are saying, on 27th April, that you remembered
20 seeing him before --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- on his feet and running at a man with glass.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You see, I am suggesting to you, Constable Neill, that
25 you had no such memory; that you have put that in,
59
1 because you have given -- I am going to take you to some
2 previous occasions where you have dealt with this.
3 At the trial of Marc Hobson you were asked
4 extensively about this part of your statement of
5 27th April by Mr xxxxxxxxxx again. At [08550] the
6 following exchange between you and Mr xxxxxxxxxx took
7 place. At the top of the page:
8 "Question: Of what you have said, and in relation
9 to what happened, do you remember either of the two men
10 who were lying conscious on the road, whatever their
11 position, did you see either of those two men do
12 anything before they were in the prone position?
13 "Answer: No."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's the answer you gave on oath to Mr xxxxxxxxxx: no, you
16 hadn't seen either of them before:
17 "Question: You didn't?
18 "Answer: No.
19 "Question: And so that I'm clear about it,
20 Constable, from the time that you first saw the two men
21 lying on the roadway, did either of the two men move
22 from their lying position until they were taken away by
23 ambulance?
24 "Answer: As far as I can remember, they were put
25 into the recovery position ..."
60
1 Then you are asked again at line 22:
2 "Question: And so that I'm clear about it, did you
3 notice or observe or see Mr Hamill at any stage before
4 you saw him lying unconscious on the roadway?
5 "Answer: No, I couldn't say that I did."
6 Now, to be fair to you, on the next page, if you
7 turn over to [08551], the exchange continues and you are
8 asked about this part of your statement. You are asked
9 about this business about the bottle and the glass and
10 you say:
11 "Answer: I was some distance from it.
12 "Question: And whenever you said about that, you
13 then went on to say there were two people and you will
14 remember his Lordship actually said, 'Hold on. You've
15 only told us about one person'?
16 "Answer: Yes.
17 "Question: So that I'm clear about it, were you
18 saying that one of the number of incidents that happened
19 on that morning was two people, one running and the
20 other running, both towards each other?
21 "Answer: That is correct, my Lord.
22 "Question: And one of them armed with a piece of
23 glass?
24 "Answer: Yes, it was a piece of glass or a bottle.
25 "Question: Now, I appreciate it's difficult to get
61
1 them in sequence, but did you see those two people
2 running towards each other before or after you saw the
3 two men prone on the ground?
4 "Answer: It was whenever I was over at Mr Hamill
5 that I remembered seeing -- so it was before I saw
6 Mr Hamill on the ground.
7 "Question: So the position, so that I am clear about
8 it, are you saying that you saw -- you didn't see Mr
9 Hamill at all before you saw him lying on the ground?
10 "Answer: I believed that the person that was lying
11 on the ground had been the person that was running
12 towards the fella with the bottle."
13 You continue to say, once that's put to you:
14 "Answer: Well ... I believed it was [him]".
15 Now, your first answer to Mr xxxxxxxxxx was very
16 clear and categorical; that you had not seen Robert
17 Hamill before you saw him lying on the ground. Isn't
18 that the truth of it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And that this business of having a flashback or a memory
21 of having seen him before, that you put in your
22 statement of 27th April, has no grounding in actual
23 memory?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Because I want to take you to your Inquiry statement,
62
1 please, at page [81036], paragraph 29, which begins on
2 [81035]. I may read the whole of 29:
3 "I was then aware of somebody being on the ground
4 outside of Eastwoods and another person on the ground
5 outside of Number 7 Bakery. I went over to the male
6 lying on the ground outside of Eastwoods and checked
7 him. He was breathing, but it was raspy and he was
8 lying in a pool of what I initially thought was blood.
9 I physically checked him for blood but didn't find
10 anything and the pool of liquid appeared to be alcohol
11 with glass on the ground. I could remember seeing", if we
12 go over the page, please, [81036], "the male on the
13 ground earlier and another male running towards him with
14 a bottle."
15 Now that is different. This time the male who you
16 believe is Mr Hamill is on the ground and the other man
17 is running towards him with a bottle.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now that's quite different to what you said on
20 27th April, which is that Mr Hamill was running towards
21 the man with the glass.
22 A. Sorry. Can we go back to the previous page there, just
23 to the start of that again [81035]?
24 Q. Yes. I am suggesting they directly contradict each
25 other.
63
1 MR UNDERWOOD: It might help to split the screen, perhaps.
2 MR McGRORY: Yes. We can have the beginning of paragraph 29
3 on the left and the ... thank you. If we could
4 highlight paragraph 29 in its entirety on each side
5 [81035] and [81036]. Thank you. In your Inquiry
6 statement, which you have signed --
7 A. Yes, I am aware I have signed it. I don't believe that
8 I am trying to say that Mr Hamill was on the ground when
9 that happened. I mean, you can read it possibly any
10 number of ways, but that's not what I meant.
11 Q. Right. Well, what at least you are saying is that the
12 other male is running towards him.
13 A. I think I have already said that in my own statement and
14 through the other things, did I not?
15 Q. You see, what you said on 27th April was that Mr Hamill
16 was running towards the male.
17 A. They were running towards each other. One was coming
18 down from the church.
19 Q. You see, I am suggesting to you, Mr Neill, in fact, you
20 just made the thing up.
21 A. I know that's what you are suggesting, but I didn't.
22 Q. You also then had a significant conversation with
23 inspector -- Constable Lawther. You have had this --
24 A. Detective Sergeant Lawther?
25 Q. Detective Sergeant Lawther. Sorry. We believe it was
64
1 him. This is a document that begins on page [06336].
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There is a very lengthy note taken by -- it was either
4 Sergeant Lawther or Sergeant Bradley, but I think we
5 have identified --
6 A. I think it was Sergeant Lawther.
7 Q. Sergeant Lawther?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, in this account it goes for five pages. So it is
10 actually a more detailed account than your statement of
11 27th April --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- which runs to about three and a half to four pages.
14 You actually deal with this particular issue in the
15 bottom half of page [06339]. Now, you have already
16 recounted in some detail to Sergeant Lawther how you got
17 out of the Land Rover, there was nothing going on and
18 then there was the cat calling, and how you immediately
19 got involved in rescuing a Nationalist whom you brought
20 over to Woodhouse Street and that this Nationalist with
21 the cream top with the zip on it -- do you remember all
22 this --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- kept getting back into the fray, and then he is
25 assaulted. Then you grab the guy who assaulted him and
65
1 you bring him over to the Land Rover and then you are
2 distracted again.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then you go over to rescue Constable Atkinson, who is
5 getting into trouble.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You have told him how all of this happens in order and
8 in sequence. Then you say -- this is when you see
9 Reserve Constable Atkinson in trouble. You say:
10 "About that time there was something like a bottle
11 smashed at the Land Rover. I looked up the street and
12 saw a bottle being smashed outside Eastwoods on the
13 road. I didn't see who threw it but I saw it smashing
14 on the ground. I saw a fellow going to pick up the
15 large piece of glass which was smashed. I don't know
16 who that fellow was. I saw the fellow running towards
17 the first fellow. I now believe that fellow who was
18 running towards the one who was picking up the smashed
19 glass to be Hamill who was injured."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you are saying to Sergeant Lawther that you saw
23 Hamill running towards this fellow who had picked up
24 a glass?
25 A. Yes, and I don't -- I am not trying to say that
66
1 Mr Hamill was on the ground at that stage.
2 Q. No, you are not. I have moved on from that?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. The difference here, which I am saying to you is very
5 clear, is that on 27th April and again to
6 Sergeant Lawther you describe Hamill running towards
7 this chap with the glass?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But you then go on to say:
10 "I was also trying to watch R/Con P40 and
11 R/Con Atkinson, who were trying to separate the
12 fighting, and to check if they were in any difficulty.
13 They were in the middle of the road at the junction of
14 Thomas Street trying to separate fights. I then became
15 aware of", overleaf, [06340], "two males lying on the
16 ground ..."
17 What you are telling Sergeant Lawther is
18 sequentially, in terms of the order of these things
19 happening, you observed this incident of Mr Hamill, whom
20 you have identified to Sergeant Lawther by now, running
21 towards this fellow with the glass?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then you see Reserve Constable Atkinson and then you see
24 the bodies lying on the ground.
25 A. Yes.
67
1 Q. Do you see that? You put this sighting of Robert Hamill
2 when you are talking to Sergeant Lawther quite late in
3 the proceedings. The next thing that happens is you see
4 Reserve Constable Atkinson and then you see the men
5 lying on the ground?
6 A. Well, to be fair, Sergeant Lawther was leading me
7 through the statement to start with and making further
8 notes on my original statement. I can only be led by
9 the questions he was asking me at the time.
10 Q. You see, in your statement of 27th April you deal with
11 it by way of a memory.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So in your statement you have already recounted the
14 various events?
15 A. I haven't recounted all the events. That would be
16 unfair to say.
17 Q. Then you say in your statement of 27th April that you
18 suddenly remember having seen this chap before when you
19 see him on the ground. You don't recount the incident
20 of these two chaps earlier in events. It must have
21 happened earlier.
22 A. In my statement of the 27th.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Whenever I was writing my statement, I remembered seeing
25 them on the ground. That's when I remembered what had
68
1 happened.
2 Q. When you are speaking to Sergeant Lawther you are
3 placing this incident when you say it actually happened.
4 A. I was only being led by the questions he was asking me
5 as to what -- he was leading me through it on,
6 I suppose, trying to do it in a chronological order.
7 I can't -- I know what memory I have. I can't say which
8 way it comes. I have said that through this whole thing
9 for the last 12 years.
10 Q. But it has happened after all of these previous events
11 that you have recounted to Sergeant Lawther in terms of
12 helping the chap, the Nationalist who was being
13 assaulted --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- taking him over to Woodhouse Street, him going back
16 into the fray, trying to get him out of the fray --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- watching him being assaulted again, grabbing the
19 person who assaulted him --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- bringing him to the Land Rover. All of these
22 things --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- have happened before you see the guy with the glass
25 and Mr Hamill either running at him or the other way
69
1 round.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You see, I am suggesting to you that couldn't have
4 happened as late in the proceedings as that, because
5 Mr Hamill had to have been on the ground long before it.
6 A. I can only go by what -- the way I remembered it at the
7 time. I can't -- you know, the things I had remembered
8 weren't in chronological order. I would doubt whether
9 anybody can remember everything in chronological order
10 to start with, especially given the situation that was
11 on going at that time.
12 Q. Let -- sorry?
13 A. No, go ahead.
14 Q. Let me make clear what I am suggesting to you is that
15 you have slipped this in, a sighting of Robert Hamill,
16 in some sort of altercation with a fellow with glass in
17 order to disguise the fact that you hadn't seen him on
18 the ground earlier.
19 A. No. Well, I appreciate what you are saying.
20 I appreciate the questions you are asking, but that's
21 certainly not true.
22 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Can I just interrupt
23 there?
24 MR McGRORY: Yes.
25 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Was not that memory
70
1 stimulated by the fact of the liquid on the ground?
2 A. Yes.
3 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: I think in the statement
4 that seemed to be what had elicited this memory, because
5 he was accounting for the alcohol. You know, I may be
6 wrong on that.
7 A. No. That is what brought that memory back.
8 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: It wasn't the fact of
9 him lying on the ground, but the fact of the alcohol
10 that had stimulated the memory.
11 MR McGRORY: Whatever stimulates the memory, what I am
12 suggesting to you is that when you were writing your
13 statement out, you had the memory?
14 A. I obviously had the memory, because I wrote it out, yes.
15 I was recollecting it as that happened. I couldn't
16 place that -- I know, if you want -- I can't place it in
17 chronological order, which I have said throughout.
18 Different things have happened. There are many things
19 I still haven't been able to recollect.
20 If I was able to recollect everything that happened,
21 my statement would probably be 20 or 30 pages long --
22 Q. You see --
23 A. -- but, unfortunately, it is not.
24 Q. No, no, but Sergeant Lawther draws you out on the
25 memory.
71
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The memory is then of an incident that had just taken
3 place before you saw Reserve Constable Atkinson in
4 trouble?
5 A. Yes, but I wasn't in charge of the questions or the way
6 he asked them, you know.
7 Q. Never mind this. What I am --
8 A. No, but what I am trying to say is I was not in charge
9 of that interview. It was Sergeant Lawther who was in
10 charge of the interview. He had obviously had notes or
11 ways of asking me questions and the way of asking me
12 them in the order that he wanted them in, and that's the
13 way they were asked.
14 Q. But you are in charge, Constable Neill, of what it is
15 you tell him --
16 A. Yes. And I responded --
17 Q. Let me finish --
18 A. I am just saying I have responded to his questions in
19 the way he has given them to me, yes.
20 Q. Let me finish the question.
21 As to what you saw and when you saw it happen --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- what you have told Sergeant Lawther is that this
24 incident, which you say happened between the man whom
25 you have said you believed to be Robert Hamill --
72
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- and this other man, whatever the detail of it --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- happened after, after you had already been grappling
5 with Loyalists attacking a Nationalist from
6 Woodhouse Street, bringing him back to
7 Woodhouse Street --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- him going back into the fray --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- him being assaulted. All of those things had
12 happened.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then you say you saw a man whom you believed to be
15 Robert Hamill in this altercation with this fellow with
16 a glass.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you go over to Reserve Constable Atkinson and then
19 he is on the ground.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So what I am saying to you is that cannot be right.
22 A. I have never said it is right in chronological order.
23 I have never said that. I know that's what you are
24 trying to tell me, but I am not -- I have never disputed
25 the fact it is not in chronological order. You know --
73
1 Q. Well, you are trying to suggest to Sergeant Lawther --
2 A. I am not trying to suggest anything to Sergeant Lawther.
3 Sergeant Lawther was asking me the questions. I was
4 responding to his questions. It is as simple as that.
5 He has read my statements and come up with his notes,
6 the questions he wants to put to me.
7 Q. We will ask Sergeant Lawther about that. I am going to
8 take this point no further, other than to suggest to you
9 that the entire recount, whether it is a memory or
10 belief or whatever it is, of seeing Robert Hamill is
11 either mistaken or it is deliberately put in there to
12 try to make out that Robert Hamill was alive and running
13 about much later in proceedings than he actually was.
14 A. I appreciate what you are saying but that's not true.
15 Q. Will you accept it is at the very least a mistake?
16 A. What's a mistake?
17 Q. That Robert Hamill was the fellow running at the fellow
18 with glass.
19 A. I accept that is possibly Robert. I have never said it
20 wasn't Robert. I am just trying to --
21 Q. Will you accept you are mistaken in your belief that you
22 expressed that it was Robert?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You won't?
25 A. No.
74
1 Q. Why, then, did you tell Lord Justice xxxxxxxxxx in quite
2 clear categorical terms at the trial --
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. -- that you had not seen either of those men before you
5 saw them in the prone position?
6 A. I can only go -- at what point -- the questions were
7 coming thick and fast at me there too. I may have been
8 mistaken whenever I said that. I know it is in my
9 statement to start with and it is in the following
10 statement, and it is probably in quite a few of the
11 other interviews that I have given as well. There is
12 more than one interview or one statement.
13 Q. Do you accept it is a contradiction?
14 A. Yes, it is a contradiction, yes.
15 Q. It is a contradiction made on oath, Mr Neill.
16 A. Yes. It is a contradiction made on oath, yes. It
17 doesn't vary the fact that the statements I had made
18 I believe to be true.
19 Q. From the moment you got out of the Land Rover and the
20 cat calling starts --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and then you get involved in rescuing this
23 Nationalist from the Loyalists, the fellow with the
24 cream top with the zip on the top of it --
25 A. Yes.
75
1 Q. -- and you told Lord Justice xxxxxxxxxx as well that he
2 went back into the fray maybe three or four times?
3 A. Quite possibly, yes.
4 Q. That all takes some time. Isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Of course, you are also telling us about this memory
7 about the bottle smashing.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then you go over to Reserve Constable Atkinson --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- and you get him out of difficulty.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All of this took some time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us how long it would have taken?
16 A. No, I can't. I will labour the point, but, I mean,
17 I can't put things into chronological order and what way
18 exactly things happened.
19 Q. Before you see the body lying on the ground, could all
20 of this have taken five or ten minutes?
21 A. I don't believe so. By that stage, I don't know what
22 the time-line is on the other crews arriving, but we
23 were --
24 Q. I think you do --
25 A. Sorry. You think I know what?
76
1 Q. I think you do know what the time-line is,
2 Constable Neill?
3 A. No, I don't know what the time-line is. How do I know
4 the time-line exactly? I think in one of my statements
5 I think I said it went on for half an hour before
6 anybody arrived. I don't believe that to be actually
7 true. It just seemed that way at the time.
8 Q. Are you aware that Reserve Constable Cornett first calls
9 for help at 1.45?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You see, Reserve Constable Cornett had said in her
12 statement of 27th April, which is at page [06342], the
13 second page of it, top of the page:
14 "We all alighted from the Land Rover. I could see
15 different groups fighting and women screaming."
16 You see, she said in her statement of 27th April
17 that that's what she saw as soon as she gets out of the
18 Land Rover
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You have said there was nothing happening and that the
21 cat calling starts fairly soon afterwards.
22 A. She was on the other side of the Land Rover to start
23 with. I am not aware of whether she had made the call
24 on the radio before she got out of the Land Rover.
25 Q. Well, she says herself --
77
1 A. That's questions you would have to ask her as to what
2 way she did it.
3 Q. We will.
4 A. She doesn't -- you know --
5 Q. She says:
6 "I ran back to the Land Rover to call for assistance
7 and also an ambulance as two people had been injured."
8 A. I think you would need to ask her the questions about
9 that.
10 Q. Her time-line seems to be shorter than yours. I am
11 going to give up the time-line. She makes her first
12 call at 1.45 and 37 seconds for assistance?
13 A. Has she actually said that? That has come off the tape.
14 She is not saying that.
15 Q. Take it from me, we have that the time --
16 A. I know, I know --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: From the tape?
18 A. That's what I am just trying to say, Mr Chairman. This
19 is coming from the tape. We don't actually have that,
20 when we are out on the street, exactly when things have
21 been done like this. Now, to say that she is actually
22 saying that she made the call "at ... and so many
23 seconds", is not exactly true.
24 MR McGRORY: That is true, because that is the time that
25 she --
78
1 A. No, no. You are saying she made it at that time.
2 Q. I am suggesting to you that she says she made it pretty
3 quickly after she got out of the Land Rover?
4 A. No. You said she made it at a certain time. I am sure
5 she didn't tell you exactly what time.
6 Q. Let me make this clear, Constable Neill: she says it
7 made it pretty quickly after she got out of the
8 Land Rover. She didn't have her radio. She ran back
9 over to the Land Rover and made a call for help and for
10 an ambulance she says.
11 I am going to tell you what the records say.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. She first makes a call for help on channel 19 at 1.45.37
14 seconds.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. At 1.46.03 seconds, which is not much later, 30 seconds
17 later or less, she makes another call for back-up. Then
18 at 1.46.15 seconds, which is a matter of seconds
19 later --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- she makes a pocket radio request for urgent back-up.
22 At 1.48.00 she asks for two ambulances for two victims,
23 two and a half minutes only after she makes the first
24 call for back-up.
25 A. Yes.
79
1 Q. Two and a half minutes for two victims. So what I am
2 suggesting to you is that you were trying your best,
3 back in April and early May 1997, to make out the case
4 that Robert Hamill wasn't felled until much later in the
5 proceedings, but, in fact, an ambulance was called for
6 within two and a half minutes --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- of Reserve Constable Cornett first asking for help.
9 Do you accept there was no need for her to ask for
10 an ambulance for two victims unless there were two
11 victims lying on the ground?
12 A. You would have to ask her. I am not aware of why she
13 made that call at that time, and as for the timings,
14 I can only go by what she's -- you know, her own
15 statement there, by the calls you are saying she has
16 made.
17 In that kind of a scenario where you have that kind
18 of thing going on, time just develops. You know, a few
19 seconds is actually -- it would appear to be minutes, if
20 you have ever been in a situation like that, you would
21 realise, you know. As for when exactly everything had
22 happened, I am still saying, to the best of my
23 knowledge, that's the way it happened. Chronologically
24 I couldn't tell you when exactly things happened.
25 Q. I go back to the first question I asked you,
80
1 Constable Neill --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- which is whether or not you will accept that --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a need for this? You have asked it
5 more than once already. It is not adding anything.
6 MR McGRORY: I think I am entitled to ask it once more, and
7 this is the final question I am going to ask, having
8 already asked all the intervening questions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR McGRORY: Are you prepared to accept that you might be
11 mistaken in saying that Robert Hamill wasn't on that
12 ground when you got out of that Land Rover?
13 A. I have no recollection of seeing anybody on the ground
14 at that time. As far as I am aware, Mr McGrory,
15 everybody was up and about, and I'm not -- as best as
16 I can recollect. I have made the statements as honestly
17 as I possibly could, and if you appreciate the number of
18 statements and interviews that I have had, yes, there
19 maybe is something not sitting just right with
20 everything else. I can't remember everything and
21 questions that are continually being asked, it doesn't
22 help either, you know.
23 Q. Constable Neill, will you listen very carefully to the
24 wording of this question?
25 A. Yes.
81
1 Q. Are you prepared to accept that you might be mistaken on
2 the question of whether or not Robert Hamill was on the
3 ground when you got out of the Land Rover?
4 A. No.
5 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
6 Questions from MS DINSMORE
7 MS DINSMORE: Just one question, Constable Neill.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. My name is Dinsmore. I act on behalf of Eleanor and
10 Robbie Atkinson.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Constable Neill, you made a statement on 19th June 2001.
13 I will just maybe call that statement up. It is
14 [17247]. I will just allow you a moment to cast your
15 eye over that. Do you recall that statement?
16 A. Yes, I was with K.
17 Q. Can you just confirm everything in that statement is
18 true and correct and as you remember it now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Therefore, it follows that that was a statement where
21 you were asked questions about Reserve
22 Constable Atkinson --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- and you had a clear recall, when making that
25 statement, that you received a phone call from Reserve
82
1 Constable Atkinson that morning regarding the statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that your recall today as well?
4 A. Yes. Although -- go ahead.
5 Q. You recall him saying he was putting his statement in
6 the pigeonhole?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Maybe you can help us on this. Were you aware of
9 a pigeonhole in the barracks?
10 A. Yes. He would have had his own pigeonhole for his own
11 paperwork.
12 Q. Would CID have had a pigeonhole as well?
13 A. Well, for the statements, you mean? I think he was
14 probably talking about he had a copy of his own
15 statement, you know. The original would have been with
16 CID.
17 Q. You can also recall, when you were asked about Reserve
18 Constable Atkinson, that what you set out there in
19 relation to Allister Hanvey, there is no question of you
20 having witnessed any conversation with Reserve
21 Constable Atkinson?
22 A. No.
23 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
24 A. Okay.
25
83
1 Questions from MR GREEN
2 MR GREEN: Thank you, sir.
3 Constable Neill, I ask questions on behalf of
4 Marc Hobson.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Looking through the list of documents and materials that
7 you have put your hand to or have been responsible for
8 creating, you have accounted for your actions on the
9 early morning of 27th April on a considerable number of
10 occasions. Isn't that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I will bring you to a number of documents specifically
13 in due course, but you have prepared statements in
14 connection with the criminal proceedings against
15 Marc Hobson. Isn't that right?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. Prior to those being in any way concluded, you yourself
18 were interviewed under caution with a possibility of
19 a charge of criminal neglect of duty. Isn't that
20 correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Just to remind you, the time when you were interviewed
23 was, I think, in September of the same year that this
24 whole incident happened, 1997. Isn't that right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
84
1 Q. When you gave your evidence at the trial of Mr Hobson,
2 the decision on what was to happen to you or your
3 colleagues in terms of any criminal sanction for neglect
4 of duty had yet to be determined. Isn't that right?
5 A. I can't honestly remember. It is quite possible.
6 Q. It is on the record and I can take you directly to it in
7 the transcript, that, in fact, and we know from other
8 documents --
9 A. That's fine. I will accept that.
10 Q. -- that those matters had yet to be resolved and quite
11 properly so.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Now, in all of those statements -- and I am only going
14 to deal with those that directly affect Marc Hobson, and
15 these comments then are solely directed to that part of
16 your evidence -- Mr Hobson will say that your evidence,
17 and on any occasion when you have ascribed a role or his
18 presence at the scene, that you are wrong about that,
19 and that when you gave your evidence to the trial, his
20 trial, that you lied about that.
21 Do you understand where I am coming from?
22 A. Yes, I appreciate where you are coming from.
23 Q. I will try not to stray beyond that --
24 A. That's okay.
25 Q. -- in terms of that strong comment, but it is his case
85
1 that you have lied about his role in this entire affair.
2 Okay?
3 Now, if we can perhaps put up your statement to the
4 police dated 27th April at page [06332], please. Sorry,
5 not [06332]. If we can go over that page to the third
6 of those pages, [06334] -- yes, that's it -- you deal
7 there -- we could perhaps highlight the bottom half of
8 that statement. If we can take it up from:
9 "I had spoken to Reserve Constable Cornett and told
10 her to get an ambulance and then tried to assist in
11 getting the crowd back up the street. During this,
12 a male, late 20s, round face with goat beard and very
13 short hair, wearing a leather-type, soft casual
14 waistcoat, was near me and I saw him kick at the injured
15 man I now know as Robert Hamill. The male with the goat
16 beard was moved back as best possible."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, thinking back, is that your best recollection and
20 is that still accurate as to what you recall seeing?
21 A. Yes, yes. I believe I was involved in one of the other
22 fights at the time I saw that. Okay. Sorry.
23 Q. No. You are quite right to draw my attention to that.
24 We will come back to that. If we could perhaps read the
25 next line:
86
1 "Other police had arrived at this stage and were
2 standing with Rory Robinson, 20s, short black hair,
3 thin, with pointy features."
4 Now, that's essentially the first time that you deal
5 with the presence of a person who you then later
6 identify as Marc Hobson. Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In that, you say that he was near you:
9 "[He] was near me and I saw him kick at the injured
10 man."
11 How near was "near me"?
12 A. I couldn't honestly say now. I was involved in one of
13 the other fights. It was like -- I couldn't actually
14 give a proper distance. Probably 10 to 20 feet. It
15 wouldn't even have been that, because I was sort of in
16 the middle of the junction. I am not too sure exactly
17 where he was at that stage, but I had a clear view of
18 Mr Hobson at that time.
19 Q. You weren't directly at him, were you?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Because the distance you have given, 10 to 20 --
22 A. There was a distance between us.
23 Q. It is a distance that you have clarified in a number of
24 other documents, a deposition to the magistrates and, in
25 fact, during the trial, and I think you put the distance
87
1 as between 20 and 30 feet. Isn't that right?
2 A. It is possible.
3 Q. I can bring you to those documents.
4 A. I am not too sure.
5 Q. Just on this, to help you, Constable Neill --
6 A. That's okay.
7 Q. -- if we can go to page [08474], please. This is the
8 transcript of -- if we take this up -- this is in your
9 examination in chief:
10 "Question: And what did you see happening?
11 "Answer: I didn't actually see the result of that.
12 "Question: Yes. So anyway, you were dealing with
13 what you did in relation to Mr Hamill?
14 "Answer: He was still breathing, and I must say there
15 wasn't any sign of -- it wasn't actually blood that was
16 around him, it turned out it was alcohol. And I can't
17 say, as I say, I can't remember exactly what happened,
18 because there was that much going on.
19 "Question: Yes. So what happened next?
20 "Answer: I couldn't say what happened, you know,
21 what happened next, because you know it's -- (speech
22 interrupted).
23 "Question: Well, what else can you remember
24 happening?
25 "Answer: What else I can remember? I remember
88
1 being involved in a fight convenient to that area about
2 10, 20, 20 to 30 feet off that."
3 That's the distance that you then are when you say
4 what you claim you saw Mr Hobson engaged in. Isn't that
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we go to page [08476] just to clarify this still
8 further, you were asked -- you have given a description
9 of Mr Hobson which we will come back to. About halfway
10 down you were asked what he was wearing:
11 "Answer: He appeared to be, like -- I didn't know
12 whether it was a waistcoat or a sort of leather-fronted
13 coat with cloth arms on it, but it was something like
14 that.
15 "Question: How far do you recall being away when
16 that happened?
17 "Answer: Approximately 20 to 30 feet."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That seems to be -- and it is repeated in a number of
21 other documents, that you were putting a distance of
22 somewhere between 20 to 30 feet.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. During that time, Constable Neill, you are dealing with
25 a fight that you are trying to break up or deal with to
89
1 contain it. Isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. If we just go back to your statement then at
4 page [06334] -- and just highlight again the bottom half
5 of that -- you said:
6 "... was near me and I saw him kick at the injured
7 man I now know to be Robert Hamill. The male with the
8 goat beard was moved back as best possible."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who moved him back?
11 A. I couldn't honestly say. There was --
12 Q. Well, did you move him back?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, who moved him back then? Did one of the Loyalist
15 crowd move him back?
16 A. I don't know who moved him back.
17 Q. Well, you have clearly recalled in this statement that
18 someone moved him back. Was it a police officer?
19 A. I couldn't honestly say.
20 Q. Well, a police officer would be in uniform. Isn't that
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were in uniform?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So if it was a police officer, you would have seen that
90
1 person in a uniform moving him back. Isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, but I haven't got any recollection of that, just
3 who it was did it.
4 Q. Are you telling the truth about that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you not in your statement there, Constable Neill,
7 saying that you moved him back? Is that not, in fact,
8 what you are trying to tell us in that statement?
9 A. No. I was involved with Robbie in another fight,
10 another fight, not necessarily with Robbie Atkinson, but
11 I was involved in another fight whenever I seen that
12 happening.
13 Q. I know you are saying that now and in this statement --
14 A. No, I have said it before.
15 Q. In this statement you say:
16 "I am not sure where I was at what stage this was in
17 the whole event. I had spoken to Reserve
18 Constable Cornett and told her to get an ambulance and
19 then tried to assist in getting the crowd back up the
20 street. During this", this is where you are speaking to
21 Reserve Constable Cornett and told her to get
22 an ambulance and assisting in getting the crowd:
23 "During this, a male, late 20s ... was near me and
24 I saw him kick at the injured man I now know to be
25 Robert Hamill. The male with the goat beard was moved
91
1 back as best possible."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you actually remember this in your mind's eye, him
4 being moved back?
5 A. I can't remember. I can only recollect now only from
6 that statement. I can recollect having seen him and
7 being able to identify him from -- there was, like,
8 a tunnel vision of him at that time whenever I saw him
9 kick at that -- kick at Robert.
10 Q. Oh, yes.
11 A. But I can't --
12 Q. If you just let me ask you this in an effort to clarify
13 it. If you, in fact, meant that the male with the goat
14 beard was moved back as best possible, and it wasn't by
15 you, would you not have written in there who moved him
16 back?
17 A. It is quite possible. With hindsight, the statement
18 isn't perfect, you know. Far from it.
19 Q. But the natural reading of that, in the absence of you
20 saying that someone else did it, would be that you moved
21 him back. Is that right? Would you agree with that?
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't read it necessarily that way.
23 MR GREEN: Well, that's a possible reading of it.
24 A. That's a possible reading of anything, but, I mean,
25 people interpret everything different, don't they?
92
1 Q. The fact is you don't say who moves him back. Isn't
2 that right?
3 A. That's quite obvious, yes.
4 Q. You are clear it wasn't you now. Isn't that right?
5 A. I don't believe it was me to start with.
6 Q. Yes. You can't say who it was --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- whether it was a policeman or whether it was
9 a civilian?
10 A. I can't say, otherwise it would be in the statement.
11 Q. You also say, at the tail end of that passage I read
12 out, that the police had arrived by that stage. This is
13 at the stage shortly after or at the time you see
14 Mr Hobson engaged with Mr Hamill -- is that right --
15 according to that statement?
16 A. There were police arriving at various times. I wasn't
17 aware of when everybody arrived. I can't say when
18 everybody arrived. There were different people arrived
19 at different times. I am sure they didn't all arrive at
20 one go, so I can't, you know -- again, you know, it is
21 up to the interpretation as to which way you take that.
22 Q. Now, you, in addition to what you saw Mr Hobson engaged
23 in, also saw very generally what was going on around you
24 as well. Isn't that right? He wasn't the only one
25 involved --
93
1 A. He was the only one I saw at Robert Hamill.
2 Q. Yes, I appreciate that, but he wasn't the only one
3 involved in disorder and riot and behaviour of that
4 sort. Isn't that right? There were other people?
5 A. No, there were plenty of other people involved in it,
6 yes.
7 Q. You talked in your statement -- I think it is maybe the
8 previous page -- about -- halfway down, in the second
9 half of that statement, you talk about, "a free-for-all
10 then started in a matter of seconds in Market Street."
11 This is before the incident you described with
12 Mr Hobson:
13 "There were a number of fights going on. I observed
14 one outside Eastwoods clothes shop where there appeared
15 to be three on one."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "I then made for this. I am not aware of who they
18 were."
19 Do you recall being asked in the trial to give
20 descriptions of those people, to assist in any way you
21 could with saying how many there were, what they looked
22 like?
23 A. Obviously you have the transcript of it.
24 Q. I do. I am going to bring you straight to it. It is
25 page [08592]. Can we just take the bottom half and
94
1 highlight that? You are talking about Mr Hamill:
2 "Answer: ... I recollect seeing the two persons running
3 at each other. I can't say whether it was Mr Hamill or
4 Mr D or anybody else.
5 "Question: Well, let's then take it to this fight,
6 the three to one ..."
7 That's the three to one fight you talked about
8 I think in your statement:
9 "... that you split up. Can you tell us anything
10 about the description or dress of any of the three
11 Loyalists who were attacking the one Nationalist?
12 "Answer: No.
13 "Question: In terms of height?
14 "Answer: No.
15 "Question: In terms of age?
16 "Answer: No.
17 "Question: Hair colour, length, clothing?
18 "Answer [08593]: I have no recollection."
19 Isn't that right?
20 A. That was the first fight that I went to with
21 Robert Atkinson to split up. That was the initial one.
22 Q. But you weren't able to give any descriptions at all of
23 the persons who were engaged in that fighting at that
24 time. Isn't that right?
25 A. That's right.
95
1 Q. That doesn't make it into your statement and it wasn't
2 part of your recall during the trial. Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Page [08593]: line 11 there, line 10:
5 "Answer: I ran back up the street.
6 "Question: Ran back to the Land Rover. Can you
7 tell us anything about the age or description of the
8 youth whom you saw attacking that youth in
9 Woodhouse Street?
10 "Answer: He was in his late teens, early 20s.
11 I kept on asking him his name and he just kept on
12 saying, 'I'm sorry. I'm sorry'.
13 "Question: What about his clothing?
14 "Answer: Don't honestly know.
15 "Question: Had he any facial hair?
16 "Answer: No, I don't think so.
17 "Question: What colour was his hair?
18 "Answer: I think it was brown, as far as I can
19 remember.
20 "Question: Was it short or was it long?
21 "Answer: I don't recollect.
22 "Question: And do I take it that you were standing
23 within inches of that person once you'd grabbed him?
24 "Answer: Obviously, yes."
25 Can I say that would perhaps be viewed as a very
96
1 poor description of a person you were within inches of?
2 A. Yes, I think you could.
3 Q. Page [08599]. This is your description of the fight
4 with Constable Atkinson, that you came to his assistance.
5 The top part of that:
6 "Question: Did this appear to be from one
7 section or from both sections?
8 "Answer: I don't know. I was just trying to get
9 Reserve Constable Atkinson out of it.
10 "Question: Did you pay any attention to any of the
11 four or five?
12 "Answer: No, not at that time.
13 "Question: Can you help us in terms of how they
14 were dressed, any of them?
15 "Answer: No.
16 "Question: The height of any of them?
17 "Answer: They're in a fight, brawling in the
18 middle of the street. I didn't -- you know, they
19 weren't standing up.
20 "Question: And what was the outcome of that fight
21 that you were telling us about? You were trying to
22 protect Constable Atkinson, what happened?"
23 Then you go on to describe that.
24 So again, another fight and a situation that you
25 would have been very close to and you have no
97
1 description at all of the people involved in that fight.
2 Isn't that right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Page [08606]. Here you are being asked about the
5 descriptions of the person whom you were fighting with
6 at the time that you claim you saw Mr Hobson at
7 Mr Hamill. Okay?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. If we just perhaps take it from the previous page,
10 [08605]:
11 "Question: Yes. I'm just coming to that. This
12 wasn't a simple situation of you standing surveying the
13 man with the goat beard ..."
14 You are being asked about that particular occasion
15 when you saw Mr Hobson:
16 "... kicking at -- this was something that you saw
17 at a time when you were involved in a fight. And who you
18 were involved in that fight with?
19 "Answer: I don't know.
20 "Question: You don't know?
21 "Answer: No.
22 "Question: Were they male or female?
23 "Answer: They were male.
24 "Question: How many were there?"
25 Over the page, please, [08606]:
98
1 "Answer: Possibly three, two or three.
2 "Question: Two, possibly three, two or three. Can
3 you help us in terms of how any of the three of them
4 were dressed?
5 "Answer: No.
6 "Question: Age?
7 "Answer: No.
8 "Question: Height?
9 "Answer: No.
10 "Question: Colour of hair?
11 "Answer: No.
12 "Question: Facial hair?
13 "Answer: No.
14 "Question: And you in the middle of this fight, you
15 were suddenly taking ..."
16 Then it goes on to describe your observation.
17 Again, you were within inches, can I suggest, of
18 persons you were involved in a fracas with and you give
19 not one jot of information about their description?
20 Would you accept that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To this day you can't?
23 A. No.
24 MR GREEN: Sir, I have another line of questioning which
25 will take --
99
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. We will break off there.
2 2.05 pm.
3 (1.05 pm)
4 (The luncheon adjournment)
5 (2.15 pm)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry to keep you waiting. My fault.
7 Yes, Mr Green?
8 MR GREEN: Constable Neill, I am going to move on, if I may,
9 to what you actually claim you saw the person with the
10 goatee beard doing.
11 You have already told us that you were somewhere
12 between 10 and 30 feet away from him whenever you saw
13 what you claim you saw.
14 Having maybe had the last hour to think about it,
15 can you tell us where within that range you think it is
16 more likely to be, towards the upper or towards the
17 lower end of that range?
18 A. I would say it is probably between the 10 and 20 feet.
19 I mean, it is 12 years ago and I couldn't honestly say.
20 Q. You have already told us that you were dealing with
21 a violent situation right in front of you. Isn't that
22 right? You were trying to contain a fight?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Where in relation to that -- I know that the distance is
25 somewhere between 10 and 20 feet -- was this fight
100
1 taking place? Were you facing the crowd that you were
2 trying to contain?
3 A. We were somewhere in the middle of the junction there.
4 Q. Could we maybe get the map up or the -- yes. Where do
5 you think you were, if we have that map? Where do you
6 think you were?
7 A. It is hard to say, but it would be on the Thomas Street
8 side of the -- of Market Street/High Street.
9 Q. Perhaps if we give you a pen. There is a pen, I think
10 you can now just make an X where you think you were.
11 A. I couldn't say with any degree of accuracy, but
12 somewhere about there.
13 Q. Somewhere about there. Now, could you just indicate
14 also where the crowd was that you were trying to
15 contain? Was it to the right of that mark or to the
16 left of that mark?
17 A. They would have been in front of me on the Thomas Street
18 side.
19 Q. So just below the mark then?
20 A. Yes. Just in there.
21 Q. In there. Maybe we could make a number 1 beside where
22 you were and perhaps a number 2 generally speaking where
23 the crowd was.
24 Now, doing your best, how many were in that crowd do
25 you think?
101
1 A. I couldn't honestly say how many were in that. I mean,
2 it was a fight. It wasn't a crowd. There was a fight
3 going on, you know.
4 Q. There were at least two or three, were there?
5 A. There was R/Con Atkinson and -- I am not too sure how
6 many other people.
7 Q. There were some of your colleagues?
8 A. Yes. Certainly R/Con Atkinson.
9 Q. People who were creating the disturbance as well as --
10 A. Yes. Well, he was trying to split something up as well.
11 There may have been four or five people in it.
12 Q. Where, do you recall, was the prone body of
13 Robert Hamill at this ...?
14 A. Somewhere in that region there.
15 Q. So off to your right as you would be looking at the
16 crowd and dealing with the crowd?
17 A. Yes. Well, it was maybe more through the crowd than
18 actually just, you know --
19 Q. Feel free, if you want, to move number 2 or where you
20 have marked --
21 A. No. I mean, I was in that trying to assist
22 R/Con Atkinson. It was sort of through that that I saw
23 this happening.
24 Q. So am I right in saying that there was yourself, Reserve
25 Constable Atkinson --
102
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- a number of people from the Loyalist crowd, and then
3 beyond those, and behind them, was Mr Hamill?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Therefore, if I am correct in what you are saying, in
6 order to see what was happening at Mr Hamill, you would
7 have had to look through the crowd that you were trying
8 to contain as well as possibly Reserve
9 Constable Atkinson?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. This was no ordinary situation you were dealing with.
12 Isn't that right?
13 A. I don't think it was an ordinary situation.
14 Q. No. It was hand to hand?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were physically involved with the crowd. Isn't that
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And whilst trouble in Portadown may not have been
20 an unusual event, hand-to-hand combat with the police
21 certainly was. Isn't that right?
22 A. It certainly wasn't every weekend. It would have been
23 maybe a couple of times a year things might have got to
24 that stage, but never anything as bad as that, or I have
25 never been involved in anything as severe as that.
103
1 Q. It had the potential, in terms of your own safety, to
2 become very serious in nature. Isn't that right?
3 A. Well, we have to consider our own safety as well, yes.
4 Q. Because I think you have told us, and it is in some of
5 the documents, that you were concerned, not least
6 because there was a firearm that each of you would have
7 been carrying. Isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Therefore, in dealing with the crowd, your immediate
10 safety in terms of a blow someone might strike at you is
11 one concern, but another concern is the safety of your
12 weapon. Isn't that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Are you saying, Constable Neill, that with all of these
15 concerns you were able to see and have the presence of
16 mind or the good fortune simply to look through a crowd,
17 beyond a crowd of however many and see an event
18 happening 10 or 20 feet beyond this dangerous situation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In doing that, you would be taking your eye off the
21 dangerous situation right in front of you. Isn't that
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Taking your eye off perhaps for that moment of time your
25 weapon?
104
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Concentrating on something else?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't imagine you are, in an incident like
4 this, all the time looking at your weapon, are you?
5 A. No, I am not.
6 MR GREEN: What I am getting at, Constable Neill, is that in
7 that situation -- I am going to put it to you very
8 fairly, I think -- your only concern would be for your
9 safety, the safety of your colleagues and the possible
10 danger that this crowd would have exerted or would have
11 possibly had to you. Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that it is unreal and, in fact, a lie you are
14 telling that you were at that time looking through
15 a crowd 10 or 20 feet on to what was happening away from
16 that scene of danger?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, the actual event that you saw with Mr Hobson and
19 Mr Hamill prone on the ground is an event that you only
20 had sight of for a very few seconds. Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It was a glimpse, one could describe it as. Isn't that
23 right?
24 A. One could describe it as that, yes.
25 Q. Are you saying that it was something that you simply saw
105
1 out of the corner of your eye or were you looking
2 directly at Mr Hamill in order to be able to see this?
3 A. I was looking directly at Mr Hobson. That's how I was
4 able to identify him.
5 Q. You were able to do that for a short period of time.
6 I think in some of the documents you have said one or
7 two seconds. Isn't that right?
8 A. Yes, that would probably be correct.
9 Q. Where else were you looking before and after the time
10 when you saw Mr Hobson?
11 Well, I will try to be a bit clearer in that
12 question. Was it just good fortune you happened to be
13 dealing with the situation in front of you, you just
14 happened to look up and just happened to see something
15 happening 10 or 20 feet away, or were you scanning the
16 horizon or scanning beyond the situation you were trying
17 to contain?
18 A. I think it was a matter of good fortune that I did see
19 that. I mean, I could have been obstructed by somebody
20 else. Unfortunately for Mr Hobson, for me that wasn't
21 the case. I had a good view of him.
22 Q. In that moment of good fortune you were able to see this
23 person with the goatee beard --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- and in that difficult situation, when you got back to
106
1 the police station, provide quite a detailed description
2 of him. Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Your statement says that he was "in his late 20s, he had
5 a round face with a goat beard and very short hair,
6 wearing a leather-type, soft casual waistcoat", and you
7 saw him kick at the injured man.
8 A remarkably detailed description for an observation
9 that you would have made in a matter of seconds. Isn't
10 that right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Now, when you made your statement, Constable Neill, you
13 described that what you saw the person with the goatee
14 beard doing was kicking at. Isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you aware, when you were making that statement,
17 that yours was the only account from the police of any
18 direct violence as close as that upon Mr Hamill at any
19 time? Were you aware of that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you aware now?
22 A. I am aware now, but I wasn't at the time, and it wasn't
23 until it actually went to court.
24 Q. Did it occur to you, while you were writing this
25 statement, that this was an incident of quite
107
1 considerable importance; that is, a serious injury had
2 been caused to someone in your presence or certainly
3 very close in time to when you were on the screen?
4 A. Yes, but it was a matter of what was actually seen, and
5 that's what I saw.
6 Q. The question I am asking is: it was clear in your mind
7 when you were making your statement that it was
8 important for you to get the details of what you were
9 seeing accurately recorded in your statement. Isn't
10 that right?
11 A. Yes, as best as I could at the time, yes.
12 Q. Your notebook entry -- we can bring it up at
13 page [09826].
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Before we move screens, can I just indicate
15 that the witness has marked with what is now number 3
16 where he says Mr Hamill was?
17 MR GREEN: Yes, indeed.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
19 MR GREEN: If you can just identify that, that's a copy of
20 your notebook entry. Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we go over the page to [09828], the middle third of
23 that, you really deal with the same incident that you
24 have recorded in your statement -- isn't that right --
25 the part of your statement we have read over a few
108
1 times:
2 "Some scuffles still ongoing. Other police
3 arrived."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "During this, male, late 20s, goat beard, leather
6 waistcoat seen kicking male on ground outside
7 Eastwoods."
8 Now, the only difference between that and your
9 statement is in your statement you have "kicking at" and
10 in your notebook entry you have "kicking".
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What were you trying to convey in both of those
14 documents, Constable Neill?
15 A. That he was swinging his foot at Mr Hamill. Whether his
16 foot contacted with Mr Hamill, I can't say.
17 Q. That's not in your notebook entry, is it?
18 A. A notebook entry is an aide memoire, not a formal
19 statement. It is only to give you ...
20 Q. Yes. Are you saying that your statement then -- if we
21 can just bring that back up again, [06334].
22 THE CHAIRMAN: How soon after you made your notebook entry
23 did you make your statement?
24 A. I couldn't honestly say, Mr Chairman. One may have been
25 before the other. You know, the statement may have been
109
1 before the notebook. The notebook is just, as you are
2 aware, an aide memoire to making your statement.
3 MR GREEN: Can you remember which you made first, your
4 notebook or your statement?
5 A. No, I can't remember.
6 Q. But certainly one was copied off the other. Is that
7 right?
8 A. No, it is not copied, no. If it was copied, then the
9 notebook entry would go on for several pages.
10 Q. If we look at your statement, the bottom third of that
11 again:
12 "During this, a male, late 20s ... was near me and
13 I saw him kick at the injured man I now know as
14 Robert Hamill."
15 Were you meaning to convey in that statement that,
16 in fact, the kick didn't make contact with Mr Hamill?
17 A. No. I am saying that he was swinging his foot, kicking
18 at him. I don't know whether it actually made contact
19 with him or not.
20 Q. So you were trying to convey that you weren't sure
21 whether the foot made contact. Isn't that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Why didn't you say that in your statement?
24 A. Well, you can read it either way. You can read it many
25 ways.
110
1 Q. You would have to infer that, Constable Neill, wouldn't
2 you? It may be a matter of comment whether it is
3 an easy inference to make, but you would have to make
4 that inference from your statement that it was a kick at
5 which never connected or you weren't sure connected.
6 Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why didn't you clear that up by saying, "Well, it was
9 a kick at, but I wasn't sure whether it landed or not"?
10 A. I didn't see my statement again until some time later
11 and I wasn't run over the whole thing either.
12 Q. With all due respect, this is an important document you
13 are putting your hand to, isn't it?
14 A. Yes, I know it is. You are trying to make out I am
15 making light of it, which I am not.
16 Q. No, I am not saying that at all, Constable Neill.
17 A. Sorry, that's the way you are coming across to me.
18 Q. What I am asking you is: why, when you were putting your
19 hand to this important document and the information that
20 you sought to convey was that the kick didn't connect,
21 or you weren't sure if the kick connected, didn't you
22 simply add that into your document?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. You don't know?
25 A. Hindsight, yes, it would have been ideal to have put
111
1 exactly what happened.
2 Q. Do you remember being interviewed under caution in
3 September of that year?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Bring page [09427] up, please.
6 Now, you are dealing with the crowd at the beginning
7 of that:
8 "Answer: They were getting abuse. And I was trying
9 to keep them back and it was about that stage that the
10 fella with the goatee beard --
11 "Question: The goatee beard?
12 "Answer: Yes. He's identified as --
13 "Question: You, you identified him?
14 "Answer: Marc Hamill.
15 "Question: Hobson?
16 "Answer: Hobson, Hobson.
17 "Question: Aha.
18 "Answer: Marc Hobson. I believe that
19 I saw him kick Hamill or the person that was lying at 9,
20 which I believe is Hamill."
21 I think that's a mark you made in a map:
22 "Question: Aha.
23 "Answer: -- in the head. It was not -- it
24 wasn't -- he didn't jump on his head, it was just
25 a straight --
112
1 "Question: A straight kick?
2 "Answer: Straight kick."
3 "Question: Uh-huh. Well, what did you --
4 "Answer: And at that, I had already been over to
5 Hamill and he was -- his breathing was really rasping."
6
7 Are you seeking to convey by that that this was
8 a kick at, but you were not sure whether it made
9 contact? Is that what you mean by that passage?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What are you saying in that passage?
12 A. From what it sounds like, it sounds like he actually
13 kicked him.
14 Q. It not only sounds like it, that's exactly what you are
15 saying. Isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So, looking back, does that refresh your memory?
18 A. No. I wouldn't be able to say either way.
19 Q. But why were you telling the interviewer in that
20 interview that it was a kick -- it was a straight kick
21 in the head, if, in fact, what you meant to convey by
22 your statement made within hours of the event was that
23 you weren't sure whether it made contact or not? Do you
24 see the difference in those two accounts?
25 A. Oh, yes, I can see the difference in them, yes.
113
1 Q. Page [09430]. Top of that page:
2 "Answer: But at the same time he was already down
3 on the ground", this is Mr Hamill, "and he had
4 already -- I don't know what had happened to him.
5 "But the -- there was a brave more bit more
6 happened to him than he kicked him. He wasn't -- he
7 did -- it wasn't as if he really -- it was a -- what was
8 it? Oh, I don't know. It wasn't a, you know, really
9 vicious kick. He kicked him, but it wasn't as -- as
10 vicious as you would -- you know, somebody may have
11 done."
12 What are you seeking to convey in that passage,
13 Constable Neill?
14 A. That's a good question. I presume from that my own
15 reading of it was that I had seen his foot -- I had seen
16 him kicking at Mr Hamill, but it wasn't as if
17 Mr Hamill's head was, you know, lifted off the ground or
18 anything like that, you know, but I couldn't honestly
19 say at this stage.
20 Q. Do you want to think about that just a little more?
21 Because some people may think that makes absolutely no
22 sense, Constable Neill, at all, that you would need to
23 do a lot of inferring to come up with that as what you
24 were trying to convey there?
25 A. Uh-huh. I can't honestly say.
114
1 Q. You were then asked, a number of months later, to give
2 a second statement dealing with -- actually, it was
3 a third statement dealing with the events on the 27th.
4 Isn't that right? We have that at page [09672].
5 Do you remember making that statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who asked you to make that statement?
8 A. Detective Sergeant Bradley.
9 Q. Now, Detective Sergeant Bradley, do you remember what he
10 asked you? Do you remember what the premise of that
11 further statement was?
12 A. It was just in relation to that particular incident.
13 Q. Did he come to you and say, "Constable Neill, we need
14 a clarification on whether you saw a kick or a kick at,
15 and what you, in fact, remember seeing".
16 Was it set up like that?
17 A. I can't honestly remember.
18 Q. Were you told that there was some concern as to exactly
19 what it is you had seen?
20 A. No, I wasn't told of any concern.
21 Q. Well, when you came to make that statement, had you any
22 difficulty recalling, in fact, the events of 27th April?
23 A. I can't honestly remember now.
24 Q. Why, when you were preparing that statement,
25 Constable Neill, didn't you talk about the straight kick
115
1 you told the investigators in September.
2 A. Unfortunately, I didn't have all my interview notes and
3 statements to my hand.
4 Q. But what you did have was something more important than
5 that, Constable Neill. You had your memory.
6 A. Also --
7 Q. You had the recollections --
8 A. Also --
9 Q. -- of you being present --
10 A. Also --
11 Q. -- on the scene?
12 A. Sorry, also, I had been interviewed several times by
13 that stage.
14 Q. All the more reason why the matter should be perhaps
15 a bit more crystal clear in your mind?
16 A. No, not necessarily, not necessarily.
17 Q. So the more you are asked about an event, the greater
18 and the more probing the questions, the more clarity or
19 confusion arises out of it for you?
20 A. I can't say now at this stage. I mean, I didn't have
21 all the information sitting in front of me. I wasn't
22 sat down and said, "Look, that's what you have said.
23 That's what you have said. That's what you have said.
24 Can we clarify this?"
25 Q. Uh-huh, but you --
116
1 A. If that was the situation, I probably would have been
2 able to be very clear about exactly what had happened,
3 and --
4 Q. But you had no difficulty, I suggest, for a reason
5 I will go on to in a moment, in November 1997 saying
6 exactly what you meant by that, had you?
7 When asked to clarify what you meant by your
8 27th April statement, did you have difficulty or did you
9 not have difficulty knowing what you had seen?
10 A. I don't believe I did when a further question was asked.
11 Q. So whenever the question was asked, it was readily
12 answered, "This is what I saw. I didn't actually see
13 the kick land. I will put that in my statement".
14 You had no difficult with that. Isn't that right?
15 A. I didn't have any difficulty. I didn't believe I had
16 any difficulty remembering things. It is whenever --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give us again the date of this
18 statement?
19 MR GREEN: The date of the statement, sir, is 21st November
20 1997 at page [09672].
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Yes.
22 MR GREEN: So when you were asked to clarify it in
23 November 1997, you had no difficulty, because you saw
24 what you saw. Isn't that right?
25 A. I believed I was making an accurate statement whenever
117
1 I was asked.
2 Q. Yes. All the more reason perhaps why it is of concern
3 why in September 1997 you answered that it was
4 a straight kick, a kick but not a vicious kick. You,
5 Constable Neill, were making this entire thing up.
6 Isn't that right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you made the statement in April 1997 and you made
9 your two interviews in September 1997, there were
10 a number of people charged with murder. Isn't that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sorry. When you made your first statement, there
14 wasn't. They were charged a week or so later, but when
15 you were dealing with these events in November 1997
16 there were a number of people charged with murder.
17 Isn't that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you came to make your statement in November 1997,
20 were you aware that some of those had been released and
21 charges against them dropped?
22 A. I probably was, yes.
23 Q. Were you aware there were serious question marks over
24 the viability of a prosecution against the remaining
25 persons, except Marc Hobson?
118
1 A. I possibly was, yes.
2 Q. Because what I am suggesting to you, and I am going to
3 come straight to it, Constable Neill, was that you
4 realised that there was going to be a monumental focus
5 on your evidence, because your evidence was going to be
6 the only evidence against anyone charged with murder,
7 and the enormity of your lie, the enormity of your lies,
8 up until then was coming home to you?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: This is two questions in one, isn't it? You
10 are putting to him: (a) he was aware of the importance
11 of his evidence; and (b) that it was lying evidence.
12 That's two questions.
13 MR GREEN: You were aware, Constable Neill, of the
14 importance of your evidence. Isn't that right?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. The focus of attention was going to be on your evidence.
17 Isn't that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's why when you came to deal with it in late
20 November 1997, you made a further lie and you watered
21 down the lie to blur the edges of Marc Hobson's
22 involvement in this incident. Isn't that right?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You did that quite consciously and quite deliberately?
25 A. No.
119
1 Q. You see, your evidence on this issue is the only
2 evidence from anyone --
3 A. I am aware of that.
4 Q. Constable Neill, your evidence on this issue is the only
5 evidence from any witness, police or civilian, that
6 deals with a person with a goat beard, be that
7 Marc Hobson or someone else, but a person with a goat
8 beard kicking at Robert Hamill as he lay on the ground.
9 You know that. Isn't that right?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: That was simply a comment, wasn't it? Try to
12 ask questions.
13 MR GREEN: Your evidence is that that occurred in the
14 presence of a number of your police colleagues. Isn't
15 that right?
16 A. Oh, yes. We were all there.
17 Q. And in the presence of a number of civilian witnesses.
18 Isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At a time when Robert Hamill was vulnerable. Isn't that
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At a time when his family were concerned about him.
24 Isn't that right?
25 A. Yes.
120
1 Q. And no-one has seen the same event that you claim to
2 have seen. Isn't that right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 MR GREEN: Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr McComb?
7 Questions from MR McCOMB
8 MR McCOMB: My name is McComb. I appear for the other
9 people who were charged with the attack on and murder of
10 Robert Hamill, other than, of course, Mr Hobson. I have
11 just a very few questions for you.
12 When you came out of Land Rover with your
13 colleagues, did it happen fairly soon that pandemonium
14 broke loose?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Without going through all the material, would it be fair
17 to say that some of the first things which you noticed
18 was a group of perhaps eight to ten people whom you
19 perceived to be Nationalists down on the left-hand side
20 as you were looking at the junction with Thomas Street?
21 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
22 Q. As well as that, did you see around the same time four,
23 possibly four, separate fights breaking out with
24 different groups of people spread across the street?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
121
1 Q. By "street", I mean Market Street, the main street.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Amongst those groups there could have been sometimes two
4 or three people, sometimes four or five?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. That is a separate thing, as I understand it, from the
7 thing we have already heard about, which was the three
8 to one fight into which you intervened?
9 A. Yes. There was any number of fights. I couldn't
10 exactly say how many, but, yes.
11 Q. Indeed, throughout your evidence during the Hobson
12 trial, you did make the case that you did find it hard
13 to remember the chronology of events?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Again, in a nutshell, I take it you have been through
16 the papers in the Hobson trial and the judgment of
17 Lord Justice xxxxxxxxxx.
18 A. No, I haven't read the judgment.
19 Q. I see. Perhaps precising the evidence, would it be fair
20 to say that your understanding is this: that the groups
21 of people, E -- you know who I am talking about, E and
22 F? They were along with Mr Hamill, they were the
23 womenfolk?
24 A. Oh, yes.
25 Q. Along with D as well obviously.
122
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The gist of their evidence was that as they came out of
3 Thomas Street, they were set upon pretty well
4 immediately.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was the evidence which they gave throughout the
7 trial of Marc Hobson.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I suppose you will never agree that that is the case,
10 because you have a different picture of that. You have
11 a picture of Mr Hamill certainly -- of nobody being on
12 the ground when you emerged, even though these fights
13 were going on.
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Just in relation to Mr Hobson -- I don't want to
16 trespass on what has already been asked -- just in
17 relation to something which you may have said this
18 morning -- I don't know if you meant it -- could the
19 witness be shown [08477], please? It is part of the
20 transcript of the evidence which you gave in chief to
21 Mr Kerr in the trial. At line 3 there:
22 "Question: Can you say whether there were other
23 persons beside or around Mr Hamill at the time or
24 whether this person was alone?"
25 That's in relation to the attack which you have
123
1 described by Mr Hobson.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Your evidence there was:
4 "Answer: As far as I can remember, he was alone."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that the evidence which you would wish to be received
7 today as well by this Tribunal?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. During the events of that night, you saw a number of
10 people whom you named, I think quite early on, on the
11 27th, and they were Lunt, Robinson --
12
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- Forbes --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- although you may not have known Forbes' name --
17 A. No, I wasn't aware of his name at the time.
18 Q. -- and Bridgett?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Later on, it appears you make reference to Hanvey, but
21 he didn't feature at all.
22 A. No. I do recollect him being there, but I hadn't seen
23 him doing anything. It was just a lapse of memory at
24 that time that he wasn't included in my overall
25 statement.
124
1 Q. In relation to Robinson, again you saw him, but he
2 was -- he featured at a later stage --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- after you had seen the two bodies lying on the
5 ground?
6 A. Yes. He was in the front of the line.
7 Q. He was pushing from time to time with his arms backwards
8 and pushing himself forward --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- but not actively taking part in any attack?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Did you -- you named all those people, as I understand
13 it, in your 27th April notes or statement.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Were you at any subsequent time -- did you become aware
16 of any other names or did any other people come back to
17 you who might have been there?
18 A. No. I can't say that they did.
19 Q. Just in relation to the names I have already mentioned,
20 is it fair to say that none of them was involved in any
21 attack that you saw on Mr Hamill?
22 A. That's correct. I didn't see them.
23 Q. Or indeed on his friend, D?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. We know that by the 6th, Detective Inspector Irwin had
125
1 prepared a short note for Forensics in which he referred
2 to people having had bleeding injuries.
3 Did you see anybody with bleeding injuries?
4 A. I don't recollect seeing blood on the scene or anybody
5 heavily bleeding or anything like that.
6 Q. We do know that Stacey Bridgett had a bloodied nose.
7 Did you see that at any stage? Perhaps your attention
8 wasn't drawn to him.
9 A. Not when he was speaking to us.
10 Q. Certainly not. Did you see him subsequently? I don't
11 think you did.
12 A. No, I don't believe I did.
13 Q. Yes. Did you discuss what you had seen with your
14 colleagues, the other people in the Land Rover, or --
15 either amongst yourselves or in collaboration with any
16 other officers?
17 A. I don't believe so.
18 Q. It is just a very minor point, sir. You did give
19 evidence about the demeanour of Messrs Bridgett and
20 Forbes. I suggest to you that, in fact, there was no
21 shouting or anything of that nature between those two
22 people and the person we now know who was Mr Mallon.
23 A. I couldn't hear, because I was in the Land Rover and the
24 doors were closed at the time. There was something said
25 between them, but ...
126
1 MR McCOMB: I don't want to go through it, sir. It is the
2 evidence of Day 5. If need be, we can highlight those
3 at a later stage. I don't intend to take up time on
4 that now.
5 Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr O'Connor?
7 Questions from MR O'CONNOR
8 MR O'CONNOR: I represent then DI Irwin and
9 Inspector McCrum.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. You have said to the Inquiry that the statement you made
12 on 20th February 2008 is true. That's the statement
13 that you have signed to the Inquiry?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr Underwood, at the very start, took you over it and
16 asked you was it true and you said yes.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I only have one very short area to deal with and that's
19 the question of debriefing.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I want to take you first to page [81039]. Paragraph 44,
22 if that could be highlighted. This is your paragraph 44
23 where you say:
24 "This was the first time I had seen such violent
25 disorder. Although two men had been taken to hospital,
127
1 I thought it was just a public order incident. I went
2 home to bed and received a call to return to duty."
3 Is that right? Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you seem to be giving the impression there that it
6 was just another public order incident, that you went
7 home to bed as normal and then you got a call. Is that
8 fair?
9 A. Well, I think that's the statement that's prepared for
10 us for the Inquiry, but basically, yes, that's what
11 occurred.
12 Q. In terms of debriefing, you had been on duty for -- was
13 it about eight hours by that stage or longer?
14 A. No, it had been longer.
15 Q. It was the middle of the night, the early hours of the
16 morning when you were getting back in. Isn't that
17 right?
18 A. I would probably have been up from 7 o'clock or
19 8 o'clock the morning before, so 3 o'clock ...
20 Q. There is a question in your statement -- I mean, you
21 mentioned later on about being tired when you were
22 making your full statement.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that time, when you went off duty, was there any
25 question there would be a debriefing, or was it just
128
1 a situation of getting back and getting to bed?
2 A. It was just a situation of getting back and finishing.
3 That's what we had been told to do, you know.
4 Q. You were called back a few hours later?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were brought back in and asked to make a statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The four Land Rover crew were all asked to make
9 a statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In terms of debriefing, would you sometimes be asked to
12 make notes or sometimes be asked to make a statement
13 or --
14 A. We would normally be asked to make a statement.
15 Q. Make a statement.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That would be debriefing statements?
18 A. Well, for an incident such as that, it would have been
19 just making out our statements straightaway for CID.
20 Q. Your statement I think runs to something like nine typed
21 A3 -- A4 pages. Is that right? It's a long statement.
22 A. I'm not too sure. There are so many different
23 interviews and statements.
24 Q. Your first statement, the statement that day?
25 A. I think somebody said it was maybe four pages.
129
1 Q. Maybe I have miscounted?
2 A. It is maybe three and a half or four pages.
3 Q. I beg your pardon. I must have -- it is a substantial
4 enough statement. That's the point I am making.
5 Whether it is three or four pages or nine pages --
6 I counted nine. I don't know where I got that from. It
7 is a substantial enough statement. Is that right?
8 A. Yes. It was, to the best of my -- I didn't have the
9 opportunity to sit down with them all and make our
10 statements out. So it was the best I could possibly do
11 at that time.
12 Q. How long did it take you to make that statement, do you
13 think? Is it handwritten?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How long do you think it took you to sit down and write
16 that all out?
17 A. I'm not too sure. There were many people in the office
18 making statements and other people coming and asking
19 things and there were other things going on. It would
20 have been a couple of hours.
21 Q. A couple of hours?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then you were allowed to go off duty?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There is a question over whether police officers should
130
1 all sit in the one room and discuss matters before
2 making statements --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- or whether they should go into a corner of the room
5 and make statements separately.
6 What's your practice?
7 A. I think the opinion now is that we shouldn't be speaking
8 to anybody, that we should be debriefed and we should
9 have two sleep patterns before we make any statement.
10 Q. But then, that wasn't the case?
11 A. Then, that wasn't the case, and I do believe that there
12 is -- it is justified, for anybody to sit down and to be
13 able to try to remember that kind of incident, to go
14 through it with the people that were there.
15 Q. Now, your statements were collected together and I think
16 DS Bradley then I think gave evidence that he collated
17 the statements the next day, that he looked at the
18 statements to gather information out of those.
19 Do you know anything about that?
20 A. I remember -- I spoke with George Lawther, I think it
21 was the Thursday after it would have been sort of made.
22 I wouldn't have been aware of what DS Bradley had done.
23 Q. Would you know if it was normal practice, once the
24 statements were taken that day, maybe for the next day
25 for somebody like DS Bradley to gather the statements
131
1 together and see what information they could get out of
2 those statements?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I haven't got to the Thursday yet, because you mentioned
5 you were briefed by DI Irwin on the Monday or Tuesday
6 then. Is that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So you had come in again. You had made your statements.
9 They had been collated by DS Bradley?
10 A. I am not too sure about that.
11 Q. Possibly. Then on the Monday or Tuesday you were spoken
12 to by DI Irwin. Isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think you also said there were probably quite a few
15 sort of meetings like that. Is that right?
16 A. No, no. There was -- to the best of my recollection,
17 there was the one with DI Irwin on the Monday or Tuesday
18 and with George Lawther, DS Lawther, on the Thursday or
19 the Friday evening. It was late on.
20 Q. Might you have been spoken to by others in between that
21 up to the Thursday?
22 A. No, I don't think there was --
23 Q. When you gave your evidence to Mr Underwood and you
24 said -- he said:
25 "Question: Do you think it was a week or so later that
132
1 you saw Sergeant Lawther? Is that right?
2 "Answer: I think it was the Thursday, that Thursday."
3 Just before that, in fact, you had said:
4 "Answer: I can't recollect now -- there were
5 probably quite a few sort of meetings like that."
6 Maybe I had better take you back to Mr Underwood:
7 "Answer: I can't recollect that per se. I do
8 recollect a sort of debriefing with the DI on Monday
9 or Tuesday.
10 "Question: That's Mr Irwin?
11 "Answer: Yes. Where the four of us from the
12 Land Rover and Reserve Constable Murphy, who was in our
13 section as well, he was involved in it. I can't
14 recollect now -- there was probably quite a few sort of
15 meetings like that."
16 What were you talking about when you said that?
17 A. I honestly can't even remember saying that.
18 Q. Do you not remember saying that this morning?
19 A. The only ones I can remember are the one with DI Irwin
20 on the Monday or Tuesday afternoon with the five of us
21 and with George Lawther. I can't think of any.
22 Q. Why would you say that?
23 A. I am dumbfounded. I can't even think why I said that.
24
25 Q. Do you accept you did say it?
133
1 A. It's there.
2 Q. Yes. Was it a situation where everybody was trying to
3 gather together as much information as possible? In
4 other words, it might not just have been one meeting
5 with Irwin or DS Bradley, there may have been an ongoing
6 situation where everybody was trying to gather together
7 all the evidence?
8 A. They were the two main debriefings, I would say. Other
9 people would certainly have asked to come in, but
10 I wouldn't say it was any sort of debriefing.
11 Q. I haven't asked you that question. I am talking about
12 just simply the various officers trying to gather up as
13 much as possible. It may not have been a formal
14 debriefing. Throughout this Inquiry we have heard
15 various views of what a debriefing is --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- but was it the situation on the Monday, Tuesday and
18 Thursday that there were still persons coming to you
19 asking you for more information before you formally sat
20 down on Thursday with Lawther?
21 A. No, I don't remember. There was just DI Irwin and
22 George Lawther.
23 Q. I am still struggling to know why you would give that
24 evidence-in-chief then to this Inquiry, why you would
25 say there were quite a few meetings like that if there
134
1 weren't?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Can I take you then to DS Lawther's -- it is at
4 page [00686]. You have seen it already. I am not going
5 to go through the detail of it. It may be the previous
6 page [00685]. Sorry, I have a wrong reference. It is
7 the HOLMES copy of -- which was up earlier on --
8 DS Lawther's meeting with you. I had [00686]. You know
9 the document I am talking about. I have lost my
10 reference for it.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I am obliged. 06336. Go back a page or two, please.
13 The first page of that document. If we just keep going
14 back, that's it, 06332. That's your statement.
15 Sorry, I have lost the reference. It is the HOLMES copy
16 of DS Lawther's meeting with you. You don't need to
17 look at the screen, Constable Neill. You looked at it
18 earlier on. I am not going to take you to it in any
19 detail. I am just going to ask you about it?
20 A. That's my statement of 27th April. Is that not my
21 original statement?
22 Q. It is. If you bear with me, I will try to get you the
23 right reference.
24 A. I think you were actually on it before you went back
25 there.
135
1 SIR JOHN EVANS: [00686].
2 MR O'CONNOR: I thought it was the reference at
3 page [00686].
4 SIR JOHN EVANS: [00684] to [00686] was the reference you
5 gave before.
6 MR O'CONNOR: Yes, to [00686]. There are different numbers.
7 That's the HOLMES recording of Detective
8 Sergeant Lawther's meeting with you on the Thursday.
9 Isn't that right?
10 A. Yes, I believe so.
11 Q. That runs to a number of pages. I thought it was five
12 pages myself, but I am now worried I have overcounted
13 again.
14 But somewhere between four and five pages of a note
15 on the Thursday with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would that be a debriefing, in your view?
18 A. Yes. I believe he had gone through my statement and he
19 was putting further questions to me.
20 Q. So you have your long statement in the morning, which
21 was checked on the Monday -- cross-referenced on the
22 Monday and we have the, to use your words, debriefing
23 with DI Irwin on the Monday or Tuesday?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then we have DS Lawther on the Thursday. That's all
136
1 right so far?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You suggest in your statement to the Inquiry that you
4 may have missed something initially in your statement of
5 27th April because you were tired. Do you accept that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you tired on the Thursday?
8 A. No, I was going in for night shift, as far as I mind.
9 Q. So you were fresh then?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After the Thursday -- you were an experienced constable
12 at this stage. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were the most senior constable in the Land Rover at
15 that time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long had you been a constable at that time?
18 A. 13 -- 14 years.
19 Q. Now, outside of that, after that Thursday, do you think
20 it fair that anybody asking you questions about your
21 knowledge of the incident that initially you didn't
22 regard as particularly serious, do you think it fair
23 that they would feel that they would have all the
24 information you could give them by the Thursday?
25 A. Sorry. I am not just ...
137
1 Q. To look at it from another angle, at the minute you are
2 sitting here telling this Inquiry, as I understand it,
3 there may still be things in your head which have not
4 come out.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Why do you say that?
7 A. Because I didn't get to -- we didn't actually go over --
8 sit down and go through the things ourselves.
9 R/Con Atkinson had already done his statement. The
10 other two had nearly finished -- P40 and R/Con Cornett
11 were nearly finished when I came in. I didn't get the
12 opportunity to sit down and go through with them what
13 they had seen. You get the opportunity, whenever you go
14 through it like that, I believe anyway, that either --
15 people are saying something you will remember seeing
16 part of. You mightn't have seen the whole thing, but
17 you will remember more.
18 Q. Did you ever go to anybody at any stage and say, "Look,
19 I think we should all get together here because I think
20 we could all remember more"?
21 A. No. It was only a long time after it -- it was after
22 that that I even realised.
23 Q. When did you realise that?
24 A. I knew whenever I made a statement there was things
25 coming to me that, you know, remembering what had
138
1 happened. Whenever I saw something else, then
2 remembering this, that or the other had happened, you
3 know.
4 Q. I have taken you up to the Thursday.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. After that time, anybody else's memory wouldn't help
7 you, surely?
8 A. I don't know. I think there is studies out there that
9 would say otherwise. The BPS, I think they have
10 a leaflet out on interviewing in it as well,
11 long-term --
12 Q. Who is that?
13 A. The British Psychiatric Society or something like that.
14 Q. The British Psychiatric Society?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Where did you read that?
17 A. It is a leaflet I think they had issued along with --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We don't need to get as technical as this.
19 We all know that something is sometimes said to us that
20 jogs our memory. Whether that happened or not is
21 another matter. Memories can be jogged.
22 MR O'CONNOR: Just from your own personal point of view and
23 being an experienced constable, on the Thursday, or on
24 the Monday, or on the Sunday morning, at any stage did
25 you say to anybody, "Our regular practice is to sit down
139
1 and talk to somebody before we give these statements"?
2 A. It wasn't a regular practice.
3 Q. It wasn't done, was it?
4 A. No.
5 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
7 Questions from MR ADAIR
8 MR ADAIR: There are just two or three matters I want to ask
9 you about, Constable Neill.
10 In relation to Hobson, you gave evidence at the
11 trial that we know about.
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. You were cross-examined at length?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was it ever suggested to you that you were lying?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. By whom?
18 A. By the defence.
19 Q. Was it suggested that you were lying or inaccurate? Can
20 you remember?
21 A. I believe that I was lying.
22 Q. Right. Now, we all know that the chance then that --
23 the best chance, just to state the obvious, that
24 Mr Hobson would have to tell the world about your lies
25 was at the trial. Isn't that right?
140
1 A. Yes, that was correct.
2 Q. Did he give evidence at the trial?
3 A. I'm not too sure. I wasn't actually in for it. I don't
4 believe he did.
5 Q. Well, the Panel will know that he didn't give evidence.
6 Did you not know --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- that he didn't go into the witness box to tell the
9 world about your lies?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about is this.
12 It has been suggested to you, loosely speaking, on
13 behalf of the Catholic side of this event, that what you
14 have done is either mistakenly or deliberately put in
15 something to your statement that's untrue.
16 Do you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It has been suggested to you on behalf of the Protestant
19 side that you have tried to frame the very person that
20 you are supposed to have deliberately or mistakenly put
21 into the statement.
22 Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Again, if I asked this question, people outside this
25 wonderful province might find that a bit peculiar: is it
141
1 peculiar for the police to get it from both sides, the
2 Protestants and the Catholics?
3 A. It is quite normal.
4 MR ADAIR: Thanks.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
6 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Just a couple of matters.
8 You were asked by the Panel this morning whether you
9 had possibly missed a coming together of people at the
10 corner of Thomas Street and Market Street in which about
11 three Protestants, as it were, peeked round the corner,
12 then darted back --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- and all the while there were some Catholics coming up
15 Thomas Street. Let me flesh that out for you.
16 One of the pieces of evidence we have had is that
17 there was a group of Catholics coming up Thomas Street
18 and there was a group of about three Protestant men,
19 young men, at the top, or the end anyway, and that there
20 was shouting between them and they eventually came down
21 and there was a clash.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If you had seen three Protestant men at the top and
24 a number of Catholics coming up, all shouting sectarian
25 abuse at each other and coming closer and closer --
142
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- would that have been something which ordinarily would
3 have sparked you into action?
4 A. It would have, yes.
5 Q. The other matter I should have cleared up perhaps a bit
6 better when I was on my feet earlier on is this question
7 of a Land Rover facing the opposite way to yours.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can I get this clear? None of the back-up vehicles was
10 a Land Rover. Is that right?
11 A. I don't believe so. I think they were all armoured
12 cars.
13 Q. We are not clear obviously where all the various back-up
14 vehicles including the MSU ended up. What about this
15 possibility that, in front of you, and blocking your way
16 down the High Street, there were some back-up vehicles
17 parked. Is that a possibility?
18 A. It is a possibility, but normally you would come out of
19 Edward Street and you would normally just go with the
20 normal flow of traffic. You can -- I think there is one
21 sort of low point where you could drive a vehicle across
22 but, generally speaking, you couldn't.
23 Q. Generally speaking, they are all going to be on the
24 opposite side of the road to you because they are not
25 going to be able to get across?
143
1 A. The kerb at that stage was quite high.
2 Q. Have I got this right: you have no recollection of
3 backing out the Land Rover and turning it the other way?
4 A. Certainly not at that time. From we got out of the
5 Land Rover, the Land Rover was pointing down towards the
6 Market Street or into High Street, sorry, into
7 High Street.
8 Q. One other matter that arose out of examination on behalf
9 of Mr Hobson -- and it was put to you that you were the
10 only witness or the only person prepared to say that
11 Mr Hobson kicked or kicked at Mr Hamill.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Were you aware at any stage of the contents of
14 Tracey Clarke's statement?
15 A. No.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just go back to something I was asking
18 you about this morning, and I didn't really complete it?
19 I reminded you that we have heard evidence about people
20 poking their heads round the corner from the High Street
21 to look up Market Street.
22 A. Yes, Mr Chairman.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, if that happened, and if you had seen
24 that happen, would that have told you anything?
25 A. Well, there was -- there were people having -- there
144
1 were people going up the street prior to Mr Prunty
2 crossing the road in front of us. You know, there
3 hadn't been any problem with himself either, but if we
4 had seen those people at the corner poking their heads
5 round --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: And drawing back?
7 A. Yes, we would have been out. We wouldn't have been
8 sitting there.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: "We'd have ..."?
10 A. We would have been out, you know. We would have been
11 watching for it.
12 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted to ask one
13 single supplementary question about the movement of
14 the Land Rover?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Just tell me what it is.
16 MR McGRORY: The question is I would like to ask the witness
17 if it is at all possible that when events had all
18 quietened down that the Land Rover went up Market Street
19 and came back down on the other side of the road and
20 past Edward Street and possibly went up Thomas Street
21 rather than go up Edward Street.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean the Land Rover this witness was in?
23 MR McGRORY: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did that happen?
25 A. No. The only entrance into the station is from
145
1 Edward Street. The barriers are closed in
2 Thomas Street. You couldn't get up Thomas Street or
3 through to the station up Thomas Street because the
4 barriers were closed. All the town barriers were
5 closed.
6 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Neill.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Rodgers is here. I think we need
10 a technological change and perhaps a break in any event.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you.
12 (3.15 pm)
13 (A short break)
14 (3.30 pm)
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Rodgers, please.
16 MRS BRID RODGERS (sworn)
17 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mrs Rodgers.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. You will find the questions coming from over here.
21 A. Sorry. Good afternoon.
22 Q. The speakers go everywhere, I am afraid.
23 My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
24 I will have some questions for you. After that, there
25 may be some supplemental questions from some others.
146
1 A. Right.
2 Q. May I ask you your full names first?
3 A. My full name is Brid Rodgers.
4 Q. I think you were a councillor in the Portadown area in
5 1997. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You subsequently remained active in politics until at
8 least 2004?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I think you were involved in the Hamill campaign, if
11 I can call it that loosely, the campaign for, in the
12 end, this Inquiry?
13 A. Yes, I was indeed.
14 Q. Can I ask you whether you knew some people in 1997? We
15 are going to have to use the cipher list, I am afraid,
16 because they either have anonymity or have sought
17 anonymity and that is, as yet, unresolved.
18 Somebody we are calling D?
19 A. I wouldn't have -- I would have known of him, I wouldn't
20 have known him personally.
21 Q. E?
22 A. Yes, I knew her.
23 Q. F?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. P132?
147
1 A. No.
2 Q. P133?
3 A. No.
4 Q. P134?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. P39?
7 A. I knew so many of them, I can't remember.
8 Q. P39 was the Detective Chief Inspector who was in charge
9 of the investigation between 27th April 1997 and
10 8th May 1997?
11 A. No, I wouldn't have known him personally, no.
12 Q. Right. I see. It's a lady.
13 A. It's a lady. Sorry.
14 Q. Does that help?
15 A. That's all right.
16 Q. It doesn't help you at all in knowing?
17 A. No, I am afraid not.
18 Q. Very well. I want to put to you something that that
19 lady, P39, said to us in evidence, so that I can get
20 your comment on it, if I may.
21 You will see it come up on the screen. It is
22 a transcript of her evidence. If we pick it up on
23 page 15, line 10. Forgive me. It has come up
24 differently, inevitably.
25 Forget that. I am going to read it out to you. If
148
1 you can bear with me, I will repeat any part of it. We
2 can take that off the screen, please.
3 The question came from me. I said:
4 "The second thing I want to tease out is this: was
5 it unknown in Portadown for witnesses to be reluctant to
6 come forward and help the police?
7 "Answer: For witnesses?
8 "Question: Yes.
9 "Answer: We were depending on witnesses to come
10 forward to help the police. I believed that that was
11 the best way forward in that investigation so that they
12 could identify the suspects.
13 "Question: You see, we now, with the benefit of
14 a good deal of hindsight, would recognise that the
15 police might encountered some difficulty in getting
16 witnesses to come forward. That wasn't your perception
17 then. Is that right?
18 "Answer: We in the investigation, we ultimately
19 did find it, but when I made the decision on the Sunday,
20 I believed that Robert was seriously injured
21 and I believed that certainly the Catholic community
22 would have been very willing to give statements, and
23 I based my decision on that belief."
24 A little later on I asked her whether anything
25 happened in terms of the investigation between
149
1 27th April and 1st May 1997 --
2 A. This was the police investigation?
3 Q. Yes. She said:
4 "A lot had happened, because, number 1, my decision
5 was made on the Sunday that I was going for witnesses,
6 and I believed at that time I would have got the
7 support, particularly from the Catholic community.
8 "Now, from the days following I discovered that
9 I was getting -- I was having great difficulty in
10 getting the witnesses to come forward to make
11 statements. In fact, one of the Catholic people who
12 gave a statement didn't do so until after Robert had
13 died. So I was reviewing the situation every day. I,
14 in the meantime, had gone to the Hamill family. I had
15 asked them for their help to get witnesses. I had gone
16 to the priests in the community. I had asked them for
17 help to get witnesses to come forward, but,
18 unfortunately, they didn't come forward with any help to
19 me, so on 1st May my decision was changed. I said --
20 I decided then that we should go for these people, and
21 we got one of them wrong. That was the reason why
22 I changed my strategy."
23 So to sum up --
24 A. By "these people", who did she mean?
25 Q. These are three people she arrested?
150
1 A. Oh, yes.
2 Q. What I was asking you about there is, you know, she had
3 information on 27th April from which she could have
4 arrested a number of people. She didn't actually decide
5 to arrest them until 1st May. I was asking her there
6 why she didn't do that.
7 What she was saying is she decided, rightly or
8 wrongly, to go for a strategy to get help from the
9 Catholic community to build a case. In support of that
10 strategy, she went round to the family, went to priests,
11 attempted to get the Catholic community to come to give
12 some evidence, but she failed, and, therefore, she
13 decided to go ahead with the arrests on the material she
14 had.
15 What I want to ask you is whether you were conscious
16 at that time of any reason why the Catholic community
17 wouldn't assist?
18 A. Well, I was. I will give you an example. On the
19 morning that I went, the morning after Robert Hamill was
20 attacked, I was in the police station with E and she
21 went in to give her statement to the police. I wasn't
22 allowed in and I just waited in the waiting area.
23 When she came out, I said, "How did you get on?"
24 She said, "I made a full statement and I signed it".
25 She said, "They asked me did I want to make a complaint
151
1 to the police about the police, and I just asked
2 them" -- this was her saying to me, "I asked them who
3 would be investigating it", and she said, "The Police
4 Complaints Commission", she was told.
5 Then she said, "Who would be actually doing the
6 investigation?" They said, "The police". Her response
7 to that, and this is a girl who, you know, a totally
8 innocent girl, she said, "Then there's no point. It
9 wouldn't be worth my while. Because the police
10 investigating the police would be a joke".
11 She said to me afterwards, "Was I right?" I said,
12 "How do you feel about it?" She said, "Well, you know,
13 you couldn't trust them."
14 Q. Is this it --
15 A. That was the day after the event. I am surprised the
16 police didn't realise that, that it would be
17 a difficulty.
18 Q. Is this it: the police didn't get help to find the
19 murderer of Robert Hamill, because the family, or some
20 of the family, felt their complaint wouldn't be dealt
21 with properly. Is that it?
22 A. Certainly this girl's view was that the complaint would
23 certainly not be dealt with in an even-handed way.
24 Q. Did you tell her, "Never mind that. What about finding
25 the murderer?"
152
1 A. Did I say that to her?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. At that stage, it wasn't a murder, you see, it was just
4 an attack. What they were very angry about was the fact
5 that the police hadn't intervened --
6 Q. Did anything change --
7 A. -- on the night.
8 Q. -- when Robert died?
9 A. I don't think so. You see, the situation in Portadown
10 was quite difficult, because in Northern Ireland as
11 a whole there was -- within the Nationalist community
12 there was a very strong distrust of policing for
13 historic reasons and because they were seen as the arm
14 of the State, which was oppressive to the Nationalist
15 community.
16 In Portadown that was doubly so, because the
17 experience of the Nationalist community in Portadown
18 was, over the years, that they had always been subjected
19 to partial policing, which meant that a Nationalist
20 parade was never allowed to go anywhere outside the
21 Nationalist area, whereas the Loyal Order's parades were
22 always forced through 99% Nationalist areas, sometimes
23 four times a day on 12th July.
24 Q. Perhaps we can stop the historic for a moment --
25 A. Well --
153
1 Q. -- and let me ask a question here.
2 Do you know why specifically witnesses did not come
3 forward to assist in what was initially a very serious
4 assault and subsequently a murder investigation?
5 A. Because they had no faith in the police investigating
6 it. They didn't think the police would investigate it
7 with any impartiality. That was the reason. They
8 didn't trust the police.
9 Q. Forgive me. You told me once -- let's tease this out --
10 they had no faith in the police investigating
11 a complaint against the police. Are you now saying that
12 Catholics told you they had no faith in the police
13 investigating what was a serious assault and then
14 a murder?
15 A. No, they didn't tell me they had no trust in them
16 investigating a murder. They told me initially they had
17 no trust in them investigating a complaint they had
18 made.
19 Q. Is this the possibility or the likelihood, that there
20 was a confusion in the minds of potential Catholic
21 witnesses to this effect: that they thought that they
22 were most concerned about a complaint against the police
23 and that the police wouldn't investigate that properly
24 and, as a result of that, they didn't come forward as
25 witnesses to the murder?
154
1 A. Well, I don't know. That would be speculation on my
2 part.
3 Q. Well, you were there at the police station with E, were
4 you not?
5 A. I was there with E, and certainly her position was that
6 she would not make a complaint, because she felt it
7 would not be dealt with impartially and that it would
8 not be properly investigated because it would be the
9 police investigating the police, and they had no
10 faith -- they saw the police as being partial.
11 Q. Were some of the police Catholic?
12 A. Very few.
13 Q. Uh-huh. Did you know which ones were?
14 A. Well, there was one -- one policeman, who was a senior
15 policeman, who was a Catholic in Portadown.
16 Q. Let me put the specific point to you, which is that
17 Detective Constable Keys gave evidence to this effect,
18 that at 11 o'clock on the morning of the 27th, E was due
19 to come in and bring D's, her husband's, clothing for
20 investigative purposes.
21 She didn't turn up in the morning, she turned up in
22 the afternoon, and instead of bringing the clothing, you
23 came with her.
24 Now, do you know why she didn't actually take the
25 clothes to the police?
155
1 A. No. I just got a phone call asking me would I come with
2 her. They were very upset about what happened and would
3 I accompany her to the police station, and I did so.
4 Q. Can I go back to the cipher list? You have told us on
5 here that you know P134. Is that right?
6 A. P134. Yes. I presume that's [name redacted].
7 Q. The reason we are calling her P134 is because she wants
8 anonymity.
9 A. Sorry. I presume that's who it is. Yes, I do. She's
10 the mother.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes, I do know her.
13 Q. Of these other people who are her daughters. Is E
14 a daughter of hers?
15 A. E and F are her daughters.
16 Q. P132, is he --
17 A. I don't know. I don't actually know. I think D is her
18 son. I am not terribly -- I couldn't be certain about
19 it, but I know E and F, whom I knew, are her daughters.
20 Q. In your dealings in the immediate aftermath -- this is
21 the morning of the 27th -- did you speak to anybody
22 apart from E about what had actually happened?
23 A. I spoke to P134. It was she who contacted me in the
24 first place.
25 Q. You see, we know now, very belatedly, that P132 and his
156
1 wife were at the scene. They didn't come forward. They
2 have not come forward to the Inquiry. We have had to
3 trace them through a taxi driver.
4 As you can see, they are seeking anonymity. They
5 were at the scene that night. He turned up at the
6 hospital, not because he was injured, but because he
7 went there as part of the family grouping at the
8 hospital when D and Mr Hamill were taken there.
9 Now, did their mother say anything about the
10 presence of either of these two at the scene to you?
11 A. Oh, yes. She told me there were two boys and the two
12 girls.
13 Q. Because we are very short of Catholic witnesses. There
14 is a contention by a number of witnesses that there were
15 perhaps 10 or 12 Catholic men at the scene. We have
16 only managed to identified five, you see.
17 A. My understanding at the time was there was just the four
18 of them coming down from St Patrick's Hall, the two
19 girls and the two fellows.
20 Q. Again, can you help us on this? Is there a feeling in
21 the Catholic community now, to your knowledge, that
22 people should not come forward to help the Inquiry?
23 A. I wouldn't have -- I don't know honestly. You have to
24 remember that I am now retired since 2004 and I am
25 a little bit out of touch maybe.
157
1 Q. Of course. I think you still live in the area, though?
2 A. Oh, I do. I still live in the area, but not
3 specifically in Portadown.
4 Q. Yes. There is one other matter I would like to ask you
5 about, if I may. That's this: did you actually get to
6 talk to police about what had happened on the night?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you get any briefings, as it were, from them in your
9 capacity as a local politician?
10 A. No. I just came into the station with E and I said to
11 the policeman who was on duty, who was probably the
12 sergeant that gave evidence a few days ago, that I was
13 very concerned to hear from the family what had happened
14 and very concerned that the police in the Land Rover had
15 not intervened to stop it.
16 I asked him was there an explanation for this and he
17 told me that -- well, they weren't safe to get out of
18 the Land Rover because they were afraid. They hadn't
19 enough reinforcements.
20 I said, "Why did they not ask for reinforcements
21 from the police station?", which was fairly near, and
22 I was told by him that there was nobody in the police
23 station on the night, because they were out in the
24 country. There was some problem out through the
25 country, which actually, I said, surprised me, because
158
1 Portadown was a cauldron at that time. There was
2 conflict every weekend. To find Saturday night with
3 only two policemen and a policewoman in a Land Rover and
4 no reinforcements, I found very astonishing.
5 Q. Let me get this clear. The sergeant on duty on the
6 Monday of 27th April told you they were afraid to get
7 out and that's why they didn't get out of the
8 Land Rover?
9 A. That they hadn't sufficient -- there was only
10 one -- I think he said there was one woman and two
11 policemen and it would have been very difficult for them
12 to get out without help.
13 Q. Do you recall that sergeant's name?
14 A. Unfortunately, I don't. I didn't get his name at the
15 time. He was on duty. He was sitting in behind the
16 little place and I was sitting in the little waiting
17 area talking to him.
18 Q. Certainly. This was the -- can you give us a rough time
19 in the afternoon of the 27th?
20 A. It's a long time ago. I can't remember the exact time.
21 Q. Of course. It was the hours of daylight in the
22 afternoon?
23 A. Oh, yes, it was, yes. He did say there were no police
24 in the station. They couldn't have sent police down
25 because there was nobody there. They were out in the
159
1 country on some other mission.
2 Q. You see, we know that within minutes of a call for
3 back-up, there were back-up cars arriving and back-up
4 officers arrived from the police station, including
5 a sergeant and an inspector and they had riot guns, that
6 there was somebody brought from the Sangar. So, are you
7 sure?
8 A. That's exactly -- I am absolutely certain. He told me
9 that. I was quite surprised because I felt it was
10 almost impossible that in the situation in Portadown on
11 a Saturday night that -- he said that they didn't have
12 sufficient people in the station, because they were out
13 in the country, that something had happened out in the
14 country --
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 A. -- which I thought strange.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much for that.
18 Questions from MR WOLFE
19 MR WOLFE: Mrs Rodgers, thank you very much. I ask
20 questions on behalf of the PSNI.
21 Now, you had been in politics for some years prior
22 to 1997. Isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think we all know that there was, if you like,
25 a distrust of police from members of the Nationalist
160
1 community for many years prior to 1997.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Isn't that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. But you would, of course, have been aware that, by 1997,
6 the only structures in place in this country for the
7 purposes of investigating crime were the RUC.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Plainly a very serious and very distressing incident
10 happened on 27th April 1997, which was to lead to the
11 death of a young man. Isn't that correct?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, at that time, was it your view that those who had
14 information to give the police about any crime, let
15 alone serious crime, should go to the police and give up
16 that information?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You would have had no difficulty with that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. We know that there are other political parties in this
21 country at that time --
22 A. No. If a crime happened, our view always was that
23 people should give whatever information they had to the
24 police.
25 Q. Now, we know that on the day after the attack, or later
161
1 on on the day of the attack, police went to the Hamill
2 house and expressed the view that any assistance that
3 could be given to the inquiry should be given.
4 Were you aware of that?
5 A. On the day after the attack?
6 Q. The day of the attack?
7 A. Of the attack?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I don't -- I don't -- I probably was aware of that.
10 I think I was aware of that. I couldn't be certain on
11 the day that I knew it on the day.
12 Q. You were obviously, I think, from hearing your evidence,
13 keeping in quite close contact with the Hamill family
14 and the other family whose son had been attacked in this
15 incident, were you?
16 A. Yes. I was in close contact with P134 in particular.
17 Q. Now, did you express the view to the community through
18 the usual channels that they should cooperate with the
19 police in their investigation?
20 A. I probably would have suggested to them that they should
21 cooperate, but I would be also -- as far as I can
22 remember, the attitude was, and this was a highly
23 emotional time in Portadown, that the police had
24 actually stood by and allowed what they would see as
25 a Loyalist mob to attack a few Catholics who were very
162
1 much outnumbered, and that what was the investigation
2 going -- the feel was that the police -- they had very
3 strong views about the police and the fact that the
4 police might be investigating it, but that the
5 investigation would not be impartial and they
6 probably -- I can imagine -- I can hear some of them
7 saying that to me now, "What is the point? What is the
8 point?"
9 Q. So although you were aware that the only way to get
10 people into court --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- was to present the police with information or
13 evidence --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- for their investigation, there were people in the
16 community who were saying, "What is the point?"
17 A. Mind you, I have to say, you know, I would have had
18 reservations myself, although I would always have said,
19 "Tell them what you know". But in the back of my mind
20 I wondered how thorough the investigation would be,
21 given the suspicion at the time that the police had
22 simply stood by.
23 Q. Well, are you aware over the years that the police have
24 prosecuted many killers of Catholics and brought them
25 through the courts?
163
1 A. Yes. They have prosecuted -- I couldn't tell you how
2 many. A lot of killers of both Catholics and
3 Protestants have never been brought before the courts on
4 both sides.
5 Q. Of course, but to take -- there is no suggestion -- no
6 clear suggestion that there was any paramilitary
7 involvement in this case, but plenty of Loyalist
8 paramilitaries have been brought through the courts in
9 Northern Ireland because police have gathered evidence
10 against them. Isn't that right?
11 A. That's possibly right, yes. I don't follow --
12 I don't -- I am not aware of how many or anything.
13 Q. No, I am not asking for statistics, but let me bring it
14 to this: you were a senior politician working in
15 Portadown at that time?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. You were a significant influence in the community. Is
18 that fair?
19 A. Yes, that's fair.
20 Q. Now, did you rail or protest against this notion that
21 people shouldn't cooperate with the police?
22 A. I publicly would have said for people to cooperate with
23 the police. Privately, I would have said to them, you
24 know, "It's up to yourselves, you know, but I think if
25 you have information, give it", but there was such --
164
1 the answer would always have been, you know, "It's
2 a waste of space. What is the point?". They simply
3 didn't trust the police.
4 Q. Mrs Rodgers, isn't it that very ambivalence that causes
5 difficulties for police inquiries?
6 A. You see, you have to understand the strength of feeling
7 in Portadown about policing. Policing was seen as
8 always taking the side of the Loyal Orders, of the
9 Unionist community in any conflict situation. That's
10 how they were seen in Portadown. It went on for years.
11 I am going back to 1985, when I first became involved.
12 The feeling in Portadown was very strong -- it was
13 more so in Portadown even than the rest of
14 Northern Ireland -- that the police were not impartial,
15 that they would always take the side of the Loyalists,
16 and, therefore, there was a very strong view within the
17 ordinary people in Portadown that, what was the point in
18 giving evidence, because it wouldn't come to anything.
19 That was their view.
20 Q. What steps did you take, Mrs Rodgers, to ensure that
21 people would come forward to give evidence?
22 A. Well, I didn't take -- apart from saying what I said and
23 from making my views known, I mean, what steps could
24 I take? I couldn't force them.
25 Q. Did you speak, for example, to the Hamill family or the
165
1 other family or through the priests and tell them to get
2 people along to the police station?
3 A. Well, you know, I have a lot of respect for people, and
4 if people have very strong views about distrust -- you
5 see, I couldn't -- it is very difficult for people
6 nowadays, because things have changed as a result of
7 Patten, to understand.
8 It would not have been my place to say to these
9 people, "Look, you had better go along", because in many
10 ways I could see why they weren't going along. I knew
11 what they had been through. I knew what Portadown was
12 like. It would be very difficult for me -- if they said
13 to me "Brid, do you think the police will deal with this
14 impartially?" to tell you the God's truth, I would have
15 difficulty saying, "I do".
16 Q. You would understand, Mrs Rodgers, that if there is no
17 evidence brought forward, prosecutions won't get off the
18 ground?
19 A. I understand that.
20 Q. If the Catholic community, or members of the Catholic
21 community, who have information to give don't give that
22 information, that any potential prosecution is weakened?
23 A. I suppose so, but, sure, there must have been lots of
24 other evidence. I felt there was a lot of evidence.
25 Q. So it comes to this, does it, Mrs Rodgers --
166
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. -- other people can give evidence, but just don't ask
3 the Catholic community. Is that what it is?
4 A. No, it doesn't come to that. It comes to the fact that
5 the Catholic community had absolutely no faith in the
6 policing system or in the police. They thought the
7 police were against them, that they were always going to
8 support the Loyal Orders, that the people who had
9 attacked Robert Hamill would have the full support of
10 the police and that they would get nowhere. That was
11 the feeling.
12 You know, what can you do if that's the way people
13 feel?
14 Q. Even though by early May three members of that
15 Protestant community had been arrested, six people
16 arrested and charged by some time later in May, were
17 these not all clear indicators that the police were
18 doing their best to bring people to justice?
19 A. Well, as far as I remember, there were very strong
20 rumours around the Nationalist area in particular that
21 there were policemen who had actually helped some of the
22 witnesses to, if you like, get rid of evidence.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. That was a very strong -- that was going around very
25 strongly in Nationalist areas and, naturally, they were
167
1 very upset about that.
2 Q. Where did you hear that from?
3 A. It was going around. It was just rumours. It was
4 everywhere. Everywhere you went, people were talking
5 about the fact that some police -- someone within the
6 police force had helped or cooperated with one of the
7 people involved in the attack.
8 Q. You heard that in May 1997, did you?
9 A. I don't know when I heard it, but I heard it in
10 Portadown. It was doing the rounds.
11 Q. Who told you about it?
12 A. I can't remember, you know. I -- you have to remember
13 that I spoke to -- I spoke to loads of people in
14 Portadown all the time and, you know, when people --
15 I don't remember specifically who told me. Quite
16 a number of people would have said it to me.
17 Q. Mrs Rodgers, if that allegation is true, and it is
18 obviously a matter for the Inquiry, that's one of the
19 most shocking aspects of this whole sorry episode.
20 A. Absolutely, yes.
21 Q. You can't remember when you first heard about it?
22 A. Well, you know, can I say that given the situation in
23 Northern Ireland at the time, it may be shocking to,
24 I suppose, the ears of people who are not used to the
25 Northern Ireland situation, but in that -- you know, it
168
1 was shocking certainly, but in the context of
2 Northern Ireland and the history of what we had been
3 through in Portadown, a lot of people would have said,
4 "Well, that's the way things are".
5 MR WOLFE: Thank you, Mrs Rodgers.
6 MR ADAIR: No questions.
7 MR McGRORY: No questions.
8 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
9 MR McCOMB: No questions.
10 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Can I ask one then?
11 Mrs Rodgers, one of the very earliest bits of evidence
12 that we heard in this Inquiry was from the Hamill and D,
13 E -- E, I think, that they were aware there might be
14 a problem in crossing the town to get to where they were
15 going, but they said to one another, "There's a police
16 Land Rover there, so it will be all right".
17 You think that that would be a very unusual response
18 to a feeling of threat, but the fact that the police
19 Land Rover would protect them as they went through, your
20 evidence seems to be contrary to that?
21 A. Well, I think what they probably felt is the fact that
22 there was a police Land Rover sitting there, that they
23 wouldn't be attacked in the first place, because, you
24 know, if someone saw a police Land Rover, their
25 inclination would be not to attack them.
169
1 If there had been nothing -- because, you know,
2 Catholics had been attacked going through that area
3 before, very seriously attacked some of them, because
4 they had to go through the centre of the town to get
5 back from St Patrick's Hall. So I think their view --
6 and I am only guessing -- would not have been so much
7 that, "If there is an attack, we will be protected", but
8 the fact the police are sitting there means there will
9 not be a fracas.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing else arising. Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs Rodgers.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mrs Rodgers.
13 (The witness withdrew)
14 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today, sir.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 10.30 then tomorrow morning).
16 (4.05 pm)
17 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
18
19 --ooOoo--
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1 I N D E X
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MR ALAN KEITH NEILL (sworn) ...................... 1
4 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Questions from MR McGRORY ................. 40
5 Questions from MS DINSMORE ................ 82
Questions from MR GREEN ................... 84
6 Questions from MR McCOMB .................. 121
Questions from MR O'CONNOR ................ 127
7 Questions from MR ADAIR ................... 140
Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ......... 142
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MRS BRID RODGERS (sworn) ......................... 146
9 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 146
Questions from MR WOLFE ................... 160
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