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Hearing: 20th January 2009, day 5

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Tuesday, 20th January 2009

commencing at 12.00 noon

Day 5

1 Tuesday, 20th January 2009

2 (12.00 noon)

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, the next witness I propose to call has

4 been given anonymity. He is now known as P42. I will

5 call him, if I may.

6 WITNESS P42 (called)

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. I imagine I will be asking

8 most, if not all, of the questions of you. You may not

9 know this, but we are calling you P42, so if you hear

10 that phrase from me, don't be surprised.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: He had better be sworn as he is now giving

12 evidence.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: So be it, sir, yes. If you would just take

14 the oath, please. You will be given it.

15 WITNESS P42 (affirmed)

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before Mr Underwood asks you any

17 questions, we have granted you anonymity and screening,

18 and you may say, "Well, there are a lot of people here",

19 but screening meant screening from members of the

20 public. The only way we can screen to achieve that is

21 not to have any members of the public in court and there

22 are not.

23 A. Thank you.

24 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

25 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. I want you to look at a witness

1 statement, if you would, please. That will come up on

2 the screen in front of you, and if we could work from

3 the screen. It is at page [80912]. Could you just have

4 a quick look at that page, please?

5 All I want to do is identify that it is yours. Then

6 if we look at the next page, [80913], is that the

7 witness statement you have given to the Inquiry?

8 A. Yes. There will be -- that's relating to ...

9 Q. Yes. I am going to be asking you questions about 1997.

10 I want you to have a look at a model we have made of the

11 centre of Portadown in 1997. That's the standard model,

12 which, again, is going to come up on your screen. It is

13 the night model.

14 If we move round to look back down Thomas Street, if

15 we hold it there, please, could the witness have

16 control? What we are looking at here is

17 a reconstruction of a night-time scene in April 1997

18 looking down Thomas Street from Eastwoods.

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. This has been reconstructed from photographs basically

21 patched together. I want to ask you whether you can

22 help us from this about where you were living in

23 April 1997.

24 A. I think it would be somewhere up the top end up there.

25 Q. Okay. I don't know whether there is a pen in front of

1 you. If there is, you will find you can mark on the

2 screen, if you can do your best to help us with this.

3 A. Somewhere about there.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is on the left-hand side of the road as we

6 look up the road, is it?

7 A. Yes. It will be the same side of the road as the pub.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: More or less as the road begins to turn?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you tell us which floor you lived on?

11 A. I am not too sure. It would be probably the top floor.

12 Q. Okay. Did any of the windows in that flat look over

13 Thomas Street, so looking towards where we are taking

14 the photograph from?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can that be saved, please, as a snapshot? Sorry. It

17 takes a moment for us to capture that in evidence.

18 Right.

19 Now, I want to ask you whether your memory of events

20 in 1997 is good or bad.

21 A. Very bad.

22 Q. Is there any particular reason for that?

23 A. It is just that I know that my memory has been getting

24 poorly as different things have happened to me,

25 different stress levels, and even my wife reminds me to

1 do things and I just -- you know, I feel silly about it.

2 Q. In particular, have you any clear memories of April 1997

3 and the incident that we are concerned with, which

4 occurred in the early hours of 27th April?

5 A. The only thing I can remember is what I have just read

6 in that folder that was handed to me.

7 Q. Okay. In that case, can we look at the document which

8 is at page [01038], please? It will come up on the

9 screen for you. Don't worry. I wonder if we could zoom

10 in on the text. Let me read it to you, if I may:

11 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two

12 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from

13 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further

14 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,

15 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and

16 I will walk where the f*** I like'.

17 "At this he shouted to the fellas do you want

18 a fight, this was shouted about two maybe three

19 times before the crowd at the bakery responded. Then

20 from this both sides started provoking each other. The

21 man that had been doing most of the talking then walked

22 out to the middle of the road, placing his bottle to the

23 ground, he raised his hands into the air and waved as he

24 repeatedly said 'Come on then'.

25 "Eventually one man stepped out from the crowd at

1 the bakery and shouted 'I'll take you then'. At this

2 point the ladies that were with the two men shouted for

3 them to stop and walk home. But the provoking became

4 worse until both men were about a foot away and sizing

5 each other up. With not one ready to throw a punch, until

6 another man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran

7 between the both and punched the one facing the town,

8 ran off in the direction of St Mark's Church.

9 "The one who received the blow to his face then

10 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after

11 the man who had thrown the first punch.

12 "Then one by one the crowd started to run in the

13 direction of the fight. Being followed by the man and

14 both ladies who had been with the person who had started

15 the provocation.

16 "The police tried to break up the small crowd

17 without siding with either side, trying to calm the

18 situation, but having no success they had to call for

19 more police to control the crowd. Two cars pulled into

20 the middle of the town, one marked car and an unmarked

21 Sierra, the police then ran in the direction of

22 St Mark's Church.

23 "One man was then brought to the landrover and

24 placed inside until the fight died down. The ambulance

25 arrived and stretchered one man away.

1 "To my knowledge this is as much as I can remember

2 about the night in which the fight took place."

3 Now, is that your document?

4 A. It is, yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us how it came about?

6 A. I had witnessed the thing that took place, and, the next

7 day, I was at my girlfriend's house and I spoke about it

8 over the table to which -- who is now my father-in-law

9 had said to me that it would be better to let the police

10 know anonymously what had taken place, to which I agreed

11 and hence the letter.

12 Q. Can you tell us then how long after the events of the

13 night it was written?

14 A. It was the next day.

15 Q. It starts, to go back to the first line:

16 "On the date of the fight ..."

17 Is there any reason why you didn't say, "Last night,

18 I observed ..."?

19 A. No. They probably would have noted, you know, when the

20 fight had taken place. At that time, I just didn't

21 think about putting dates or anything in it.

22 Q. Had you any purpose to help any particular part of the

23 community by writing this?

24 A. It was to do with, as I say, probably the police, to

25 give them as much information.

1 Q. I am sorry. I didn't catch that.

2 A. It was to give the police information of what actually

3 had gone on there.

4 Q. If we look about three-quarters of the way down it, you

5 see a paragraph which starts:

6 "The police tried to break up the small crowd

7 without siding with either side ..."

8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. Can you tell us why, as it were, you went out of your

10 way to say that the police had not sided with either

11 side?

12 A. Either side of, you know, the crowd, everybody was

13 coming from all over the place. It was just basically

14 they were, I could think, scattered round it, break up

15 all over.

16 Q. Did you have any reason to think that the police might

17 be criticised?

18 A. No.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me to follow the geography?

20 The people you saw first were coming from the direction

21 of the fire station?

22 A. That's correct.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Would that be from your left or from your

24 right?

25 A. It would be --

1 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, further away from the --

2 A. Further away from the town.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: So they were coming past your flat, as it

5 were, were they?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we go back to that model we were looking at, the

8 standard model, and if we pan to the left slightly --

9 thank you -- there -- can you tell us in relation to

10 this or any other part of this model what you remember

11 seeing and where you remember seeing people? If you

12 want us to move it round further, just say so.

13 A. I know in -- sorry. This area here, most of the thing

14 happened.

15 Q. If we just snapshot that. Thank you. You can move it

16 around now without it ...

17 A. It was just that area there where most of it happened.

18 Q. On that side of the road, was it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you remember the descriptions of any of the people?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Anything anyone was wearing?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you give us any sort of idea how long this took?

25 Was this over in a flash or did it build slowly or what?

1 A. I think it might have been a slow build. I know it

2 wasn't a quick done, over with.

3 Again, from reading the statement, to me it sort of

4 developed into the fight.

5 Q. Obviously something made you look out of your window in

6 the first place. You could obviously hear the words you

7 tell us you heard from that distance. Was this being

8 shouted quite loudly or what?

9 A. The stuff that was being shouted was further up the

10 street. When I heard the noise -- I always keep the

11 window open, because around there there is a lot of pub

12 fights and I feared, because my car was directly outside

13 and that's what made me go to the window.

14 Q. Where you tell us you heard somebody say, "This is

15 a free country and I will walk where the f*** I like",

16 was that --

17 A. That was further up.

18 Q. Is that where you put your red mark?

19 A. No, it was further up the road.

20 Q. Further up nearer to you?

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. If we go back to the model, we can move it. If we go

23 round to the right, can you tell us where you think that

24 man was when he was saying that?

25 A. Somewhere about there.

1 Q. Again, I think we need a snapshot -- sorry -- so that we

2 can mark. It is my fault.

3 So he was actually quite near to you?

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. Going back to page [01038] -- we don't need to get it

6 up -- what you have told us is that man at the red mark

7 was shouting to the ones at the corner, "Do you want

8 a fight?"

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This was shouting up the length from where your flat was

11 up to the top. Is that it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then again, if we can go back and pan round to the left,

14 and hold it there, and again have a snapshot of the

15 screen, you say -- again, we don't need it on the

16 screen -- what you told us in the letter is:

17 "[One man] broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran between

18 them both and punched the one facing [the crowd at the bakery]",

19 and then "ran off in the direction of

20 St Mark's Church."

21 Is that round to our left, St Mark's Church?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Again, if necessary, we can pan it round. The punching

24 took place roughly where, do you think, on this?

25 A. Somewhere up here.

1 Q. Right. Again, we can move it round if you need.

2 A. It is somewhere in around that area. I'm not exactly

3 sure.

4 Q. Okay. Then you told us that, one by one, the crowd

5 started to run in the direction of the fight followed by

6 the man and the ladies who had been with the police, and

7 then the police tried to break up the small crowd.

8 Can you help us with where on this the small crowd

9 was at that point, once the fight had developed?

10 A. There was always a crowd just there.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. They ran, then, up the road.

13 Q. How could you see that from where you were?

14 A. As I say, they were coming from that direction. So, to

15 me, I built up that there was obviously a small crowd

16 there.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Coming round the corner, in other words,

18 towards you?

19 A. Yes. They were obviously standing round.

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. You told us then that two police cars

21 came up, a marked car and an unmarked car.

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Again, on this, can you show us where the cars were?

24 A. I am not too sure where each one of them ended up, but

25 it was somewhere probably like that.

1 Q. Right. Again, you have told us in the letter that a man

2 was brought to the Land Rover. We have a Land Rover on

3 this model. It is parked over there.

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. Nobody has yet given any evidence to show that's where

6 the Land Rover was. So don't take that as gospel. Tell

7 us, if you can, whether the Land Rover was there or to

8 the left or right of it or whether you can't help.

9 A. I know it was in view of Thomas Street.

10 Q. Right. You could see it?

11 A. You could see straight down into Thomas Street.

12 Q. You have also told us in the letter that an ambulance

13 arrived and stretchered one man away. Again, could you

14 see the ambulance from where you were or did you just

15 hear it?

16 A. I could hear it.

17 Q. Did you see the man being stretchered?

18 A. It looked like somebody, you know, was lying flat.

19 I don't know whether it was a stretcher or being carried

20 or what it was, but, you know, with an ambulance, I put

21 two and two together thinking that it has been

22 a stretcher.

23 Q. Did you see the man on the ground, do you think?

24 A. I didn't see anyone on the ground.

25 Q. But you think you saw him on a stretcher?

1 A. Well, I saw somebody on a stretcher.

2 Q. Again, roughly here, can you help us with where that

3 might have been?

4 A. Again, it was just in the view of Thomas Street.

5 Q. Right. Okay. Can you -- I know how difficult this must

6 be -- give us any idea how long you were watching all

7 this?

8 A. I can't. I didn't have a clock or a watch in the room.

9 Q. I think you must be aware that one of the things this

10 Inquiry is very interested in is whether the police got

11 out of that Land Rover that's parked somewhere on there

12 and whether they tried to help.

13 What do you say about that?

14 A. I know there was a number of police. Exactly how many

15 got out, I am not too sure, but I know there was

16 a number of police did get out from the back doors.

17 Q. From what you can remember --

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, was that from the back doors of

19 the Land Rover?

20 A. The back doors. I saw the back doors of the Land Rover.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: Could you see the other doors or not?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Right. My job is to push people's memories as far as

24 I can possibly push them. I hope you understand that.

25 Can you give us any impression of how you thought

1 the police reacted, whether you thought they reacted

2 quickly enough?

3 A. To what I can remember, it was just they seemed to get

4 out and just go different directions. They didn't seem

5 to aim at one specific area. It was just all over the

6 place. It was just, I would say, chaotic would be the

7 word I would use. Just they didn't know what direction

8 to, you know, sort of go for.

9 Q. Do you have any recollection of thinking, "They should

10 have got out quicker"?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The letter gives the sequence of events starting from

13 the shouting where two groups were quite a distance

14 apart, from blows being exchanged to a fight.

15 In relation to that sequence of events, can you tell

16 us when the police got out? Did they get out after the

17 fight had really developed into a full scale one or was

18 it when the punches were being exchanged or what?

19 A. I know it wasn't when there was shouting going on, but

20 when they actually got out exactly, I'm not too sure.

21 Q. Okay.

22 Is there anything else you can remember about the

23 night that you think might help the Inquiry?

24 A. Just whatever I remembered at that time I put down in

25 the letter I put in.

1 Q. Had you, in the period you were living there, seen any

2 other trouble in the area of the crossroads?

3 A. There was wee punch-ups in the street, you know, in the

4 Thomas Street area, but they obviously dispersed. You

5 know, people pulled them apart and things like that

6 there. There was never any, you know, where I actually

7 saw an ambulance arrive or the police arrive.

8 Q. So you had never seen a punch-up and the police at the

9 same time. Is that it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I am just pausing while people write this down.

12 A. Yes.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Had you ever seen Land Rovers or other police

15 vehicles, as it were, in the area parked and looking

16 out?

17 A. Through that time, yes, they were parked in different

18 areas. They were not just parked in one place. They

19 might park there for a while, move away and then go back

20 again, possibly doing a patrol or something.

21 Q. Do you remember ever seeing any other Land Rover parked

22 in the position the one on the night was, so you could

23 see the back doors from your flat?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you.

1 I just want to get the clearest picture I possibly

2 can --

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. -- about what happened when the police got out. There

5 were crowds fighting. Yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You say the police acted chaotically. Do you mean they

8 scattered into the crowd? Would that be fair?

9 A. They seemed to go in different directions.

10 Q. Did you see them at any stage form a line to keep one

11 section from the other of the crowd?

12 A. No. If there was a line formed or anything, it probably

13 would have been out of my sight, you know, from what

14 I have seen.

15 Q. I just want to ask you to look at one other document.

16 That's at page [72308]. This is a copy of a policeman's

17 notebook entry. He is a detective sergeant. It records

18 an interview that he says he had with you on

19 27th November in 2002. If we go over the page to

20 [72309], in the middle there's a passage which starts:

21 "I told him that ..."

22 If we could pick it up from there and highlight

23 that, what he says is:

24 "I told him", that's you, "that if there was

25 anything he wanted to tell us, it would be treated

1 totally confidentially, and if he wanted to make

2 a statement he could be noted as Witness A", etc:

3 "I then asked him to recall the events of the

4 night."

5 Do you recall that interview?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then, if we go over the page to [72310], I just want to

8 highlight it from, "I asked them", which is about five

9 lines down. Thank you. I think your wife was with you.

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. What the officer says in his notebook is:

12 "I asked them if this was the document", and that's

13 the one we just looked at, at [01038], "typed by [blank]

14 and dictated by [you]. They both agreed that it was.

15 I then said that I believed this document in its

16 original form had been submitted as anonymous

17 information at the time of the murder by [somebody's]

18 father. She", that's your wife, "agreed with this.

19 I asked [blank] was this a true and accurate account of

20 [your] observations from [the] flat that night. He said

21 it was. I asked how did [you] come to make it", etc.

22 Then, if we go over to [72311], in the top three

23 lines he says:

24 "I asked where his flat was and he stated he

25 couldn't remember. I asked him for the flat number.

1 Again, he said he couldn't remember."

2 Was that right that you couldn't remember then?

3 A. I couldn't remember. I knew it was on the corner, but

4 I couldn't remember what number it was.

5 Q. Were you shown a photograph?

6 A. I wasn't, no.

7 Q. If we go out of that highlight, go over the page to

8 [72312], and if I pick it up from about five lines down:

9 "I then gave them a few landmarks ..."

10 What he says is:

11 "I then gave them a few landmarks such as

12 Jamesons Bar and the church on the end of Thomas Street.

13 I asked was it on the left or right of the street as you

14 headed up from the town centre. He said the left.

15 I asked how he came to see the events ... He said he

16 couldn't really be 100% sure, but thought he had been in

17 bed and heard a noise and got up and witnessed the

18 events ..."

19 How was your recollection in 2002? Was your memory

20 better than it is now?

21 A. It would have been, yes.

22 Q. Then, if we go over the page to [72313], I want to pick

23 this up from about two-thirds of the way down. There is

24 a sentence that starts:

25 "J and I left."

1 "J", that's the officer you were with, "and I left.

2 Throughout any time in the room with [blank] and

3 [blank], I found them both to be evasive and I got the

4 impression they were telling lies about the whereabouts

5 of the flat in Thomas Street. During our time asking

6 questions about the whereabouts of the flat both [of

7 you] went red."

8 What do you say about that?

9 A. I can't comment on what he said. I don't know why he

10 thought what he thought.

11 Q. Did you find the interview with the policeman stressful?

12 A. Very stressful, yes.

13 Q. Why is that?

14 A. Any interviews I have had have been very stressful.

15 Q. Can you give us an idea why you feel stressed about

16 this?

17 A. Just with the information I could possibly give at the

18 time and with what they had sort of given me as

19 evidence, I could only answer the best I could.

20 Q. Why were you worried about giving evidence of this sort

21 openly?

22 A. To be given openly, it is stemming back -- I have been

23 attacked a couple of times myself in school and I know

24 what it feels like and I don't want my family to go

25 through what I have gone through.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much. I have no

2 further questions for you. It is possible that other

3 people might have some questions to put to you.

4 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.

5 MR ADAIR: I wonder might I ask just, I hope, a limited

6 number of questions, sir?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

8 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR

9 MR ADAIR: P42, can you just confirm I have not discussed

10 with you, prior to today, anything about your evidence?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I wanted to clarify just precisely the events down at

13 the corner.

14 Now, you tell us that the -- if I might call them

15 the Thomas Street people. Do you know who I am

16 referring to when I say the Thomas Street people? The

17 people who were coming down Thomas Street towards the

18 junction.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. Now, you tell us that they were coming from the fire

21 station. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is the fire station between your flat and St Patrick's

24 Hall? Is it up that way?

25 A. It would be that direction, yes. It is beside the

1 swimming pool.

2 Q. Where were the people when you heard the lady talk about

3 the crowd of lads down at the corner? Where were they

4 in relation to your flat at that stage?

5 A. I couldn't actually see the lady. It was only until

6 somebody stepped out on the road I was able to see

7 anything.

8 Q. But you describe -- can I ask you this, first of all?

9 The letter that you wrote --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- the anonymous letter that you wrote --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- did that contain the truth?

14 A. It did.

15 Q. At that time, did you hold any sway for either the

16 Protestant faith or the Catholic faith?

17 A. No. I have friends on both sides.

18 Q. Now the conversation that you heard, the words that you

19 said in your letter that you said you heard the lady say

20 not to walk any further as a crowd of lads were standing

21 at the corner and the man replying, "This is a free

22 country and I will walk where the f*** I like", where

23 were they when that was said?

24 A. They would have been in around where my flat would have

25 been because I was able to hear them. I was able to

1 distinguish voices.

2 Q. Right. You then heard one of what I am calling the

3 Thomas Street people shouting down towards the crowd at

4 the corner did they want a fight. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That was shouted on a number of occasions?

7 A. It would have been, yes.

8 Q. So it was the Thomas Street people, if I might call them

9 that, that were provoking a fight?

10 A. I am not too sure whether -- you know, now it was clear

11 in my mind that, yes, that would have been probably what

12 would have happened, but at that time I thought it was

13 just a bit of larking, a bit of carrying on or

14 something, you know, and then it was just going to

15 disperse.

16 Q. But, as I understand it, and that's what I am trying to

17 get clear, the words that were shouted were shouted

18 a number of times by one of the Thomas Street men about

19 having a fight.

20 A. I know it was closer to me, the voices were closer to

21 me.

22 Q. I am sorry?

23 A. The voices that I heard shouting, you know, about the

24 fight were closer to me than they were further away.

25 Q. Yes. Those words were spoken a number of times?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, it is clear then, also, that, if I might call them

3 the crowd at the bakery, they started to shout things

4 back. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, in your letter you said -- again, I just want to

7 clarify, if I may -- you say:

8 "The man that had been doing most of the talking

9 then walked out to the middle of the road, placing his

10 bottle to the ground. He raised his hands into the air

11 and waved as he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'."

12 Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, if it is in the statement.

14 Q. Just so we are absolutely clear, that is one of the

15 Thomas Street people?

16 A. It would have been at the top end of the road.

17 Q. Yes, but the person who did that was one of the people

18 who was coming down Thomas Street?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now again, if I might clarify just the sequence in the

21 next paragraph. I wonder if I may ask, Chairman, that

22 the letter be put up on the screen, if that's

23 possible --

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

25 MR ADAIR: -- for the witness. It might be helpful for you

1 to read it as I ... It is page [01038].

2 Now, do you see the paragraph beginning,

3 "Eventually" on the screen, P?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "Eventually, one man stepped out from the crowd at the

6 bakery", that's one of the bakery people?

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. "... and shouted 'I'll take you then'. At this point,

9 the ladies that were with the two men shouted for them

10 to stop and walk home ..."

11 Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So were the ladies trying to dissuade the men from

14 engaging in a fight?

15 A. At that time, I would say yes.

16 Q. You say:

17 "... But the provoking became worse until both men

18 were about a foot away and sizing each other up ..."

19 When you say "both men", that's one man from the

20 Thomas Street and one man from the bakery crowd?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. "... With not one ready to throw a punch, until another

23 man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran between the

24 both and punched the one facing the town ..."

25 Now, the one facing the town, is that

1 a Thomas Street person or a bakery person?

2 A. No, it would have been the Thomas Street person. I am

3 not too sure whether it was a punch or push or what, but

4 it seemed to be a punch to me.

5 Q. Again, these are loose terms, but for the purpose of

6 what you are describing, one of the crowd from the

7 bakery ran out to where the two men were facing each

8 other and punched the one facing the town, whom you now

9 tell us was from --

10 A. The Thomas Street, the top end.

11 Q. -- Thomas Street. This person -- when you say:

12 "... ran off in the direction of St Mark's Church."

13 Is it the person who threw the punch who ran off in

14 the direction of St Mark's Church?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then in the next paragraph -- again, I think this

17 finishes, just to clarify, who was doing what:

18 "The one who received the blow to his face", that's

19 one of the ones from Thomas Street, "then punched the

20 one who was sizing up to him", that's one of the bakery

21 ones, "and ran after the man who had thrown the first

22 punch."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now the final thing I wanted to ask you about was you

25 have told us -- correct me if I am wrong -- although you

1 can't say precisely, am I right in looking at this

2 letter that the impression one gets is that the police

3 were out of the Land Rover very quickly after the

4 fighting started as opposed to the shouting?

5 A. Yes, it would have been when they started to head up

6 towards the town.

7 Q. Pardon?

8 A. When they started to head up towards the town.

9 Q. So when you say, "When they started to head up towards

10 the town", after the initial punches at the corner which

11 you have described --

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. -- the crowd then started to head up towards the town.

14 Is that right?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Was it at that stage, which appears to be immediately

17 after or virtually within a very short period after the

18 initial punching, that you saw the police getting out of

19 the Land Rover. Is that right?

20 A. It would be in around that time.

21 Q. Yes. What you saw was the police trying to bring the

22 situation under control?

23 A. I didn't see anything being brought under control. It

24 is just I saw them, you know, diving up the town and

25 trying to sort out where -- to my recollection, where

1 they should be first.

2 MR ADAIR: Thank you very much, P.

3 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY

4 MR McGRORY: Mr Chairman, I also have some questions on

5 behalf of the family.

6 Witness P42, I would like you to have a look,

7 please, at bundle page number [80910], paragraph 17. If

8 that could be put on the screen, please, and if we could

9 perhaps highlight paragraph 17.

10 Witness P42, this is a statement given to the

11 Inquiry by witness P41, who is your wife. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In paragraph 17 of her statement to the Inquiry your

15 wife said, as you can see:

16 "Some time before our marriage in 2001, P42 was

17 invited to the police station ..."

18 Do you recall that?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. When in 2001 were you married?

21 A. My wife's going to kill me. April.

22 Q. In April?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us now what prompted that visit to the

25 police station?

1 A. I think I possibly was asked to attend.

2 Q. Can you recall whether you got a phone call or ...

3 A. I can't recall that time. I know I had to attend.

4 Q. Now, your wife says in her statement that at this point

5 she had realised that the anonymous letter which had

6 been shown earlier had now been attributed to you. Did

7 you realise that at this point?

8 A. It would have been associated with that.

9 Q. Yes. So your recollection is that the purpose of this

10 visit in the early part of 2001 to the police station

11 was to give clarification of those matters written down

12 by you in 1997?

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. Can you remember whether you were seen by one or two

15 policemen or women?

16 A. I went into the reception area and was just asked to

17 wait for a policeman to come up. I am not too sure who

18 it was.

19 Q. Your wife says slightly later in her statement that you

20 were there for maybe two hours?

21 A. I didn't have a recollection of the time.

22 Q. But you would have no reason to disagree with her

23 recollection of that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you recall if the interview with the police

1 personnel -- can you recall anything about it, if it

2 went into the detail?

3 A. I know they were just talking about the letter, trying

4 to get clear precise detail of what the letter was.

5 Q. Yes. Your wife also says in her statement that she

6 picked you up afterwards. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes. She picked me up in the car.

8 Q. She says you were very shaken. Your hands were shaking

9 and your face was red.

10 Do you recall being shaken?

11 A. I do recall being shaken, yes.

12 Q. Can you recall if you gave any further detail to the

13 police during the course of that possibly two-hour

14 interview?

15 A. No. It was just again explaining what the letter was

16 about.

17 Q. In terms of the -- well, I may say this to you. It is

18 very unfortunate that enquiries have been made of the

19 police but no record of this interview has turned up.

20 The original letter that you wrote -- I would just

21 like to ask you some questions about it -- do you accept

22 that with hindsight it is missing some crucial detail?

23 A. I gave as much detail as I possibly could.

24 Q. Yes, but, of course, it wasn't taken from you by anyone

25 who was trained in taking down information of this kind?

1 A. No.

2 Q. It is correct that you and your wife wrote it

3 together. Is that right?

4 A. I explained what happened and she was able to type it

5 out.

6 Q. Now, her father-in-law was in the police. Isn't

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The statement was given to him to hand in?

10 A. The letter was given to him, passed on to him.

11 Q. Did you have any discussion with him about the contents

12 of it?

13 A. Only, as I say, I had mentioned that I had seen the

14 fight and I didn't know, you know -- just explained

15 about what happened, and he advised, you know, to hand

16 an anonymous letter in.

17 Q. Did he not ask you any questions about what happened?

18 A. No, just basically said, "Detail what there is, hand it

19 in and let them deal with it".

20 Q. When the statement was given to him, did he not raise

21 any questions about the contents of it?

22 A. He didn't ask anything, just took the letter that was in

23 the envelope. I had it sealed in the envelope and it

24 was handed in.

25 Q. Do you accept, for example, there are no descriptions of

1 the people to whom you attribute some shouting?

2 A. I couldn't describe them.

3 Q. But there is no suggestion within the body of the letter

4 that the reason there is no description is that you

5 couldn't describe them?

6 A. I couldn't describe them, yes. I wasn't able to give

7 a description of them.

8 Q. Would that be because there was some considerable

9 distance between the flat and the junction? Isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. There is, yes.

12 Q. Could I have, please, on the screen page [80912] of the

13 bundle, paragraph 2? Witness P42, this is your

14 statement to the Inquiry. Do you recognise it? It is

15 dated 26th June 2006.

16 A. Yes. Well, at that time that's the way my health was.

17 Q. I just asked you: do you recognise the statement?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Paragraph 2 says:

20 "I have no memory whatever of events surrounding the

21 Robert Hamill case."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. Do you agree, Witness P42, that you seem to have a great

25 deal of better memory now than you did in 2006?

1 A. Yes, after reading the statement again.

2 Q. But did you not read --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Which statement?

4 MR McGRORY: Do you mean the anonymous statement?

5 A. The anonymous statement.

6 Q. Was that not put to you then, in 2006?

7 A. The only time I seen that statement was when I had wrote

8 it out and when I read it today.

9 Q. Sorry. Could you say that again?

10 A. When I wrote -- when I read the letter today, I would be

11 able to piece certain things together.

12 Q. Do you accept that the letter was shown to you back in

13 2006 when you were interviewed?

14 A. By?

15 Q. By the Inquiry interviewer.

16 A. Yes. At that time I might have just -- I don't know

17 why. I couldn't remember things. My mind was all

18 messed up.

19 Q. It didn't jog your memory then, did it?

20 A. Not as much as it would -- it does now.

21 Q. Your memory wasn't jogged in 2002 when you were

22 interviewed?

23 A. By?

24 Q. By the policeman who called to your house. You gave

25 evidence of that a little moment ago.

1 A. He didn't have anything with him. I didn't know.

2 I couldn't remember where the house was or ...

3 Q. Were you telling the truth to the Inquiry in 2006 when

4 you said you had no memory?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you telling the truth to the police in 2002 when

7 you said you had no memory?

8 A. I have a limited recollection of it, yes.

9 Q. But do you accept that you obviously gave some detail to

10 the police in 2001 when you were interviewed?

11 A. When was that again? Sorry.

12 Q. I spoke to you about this at the beginning. You were

13 interviewed possibly for two hours before your marriage

14 in 2001.

15 A. I was able to give the evidence based on what I have

16 actually written on it.

17 Q. Would it be the case, Witness P42, that, having now read

18 again the anonymous statement that you wrote out --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- that you are simply elaborating on that still with no

21 memory?

22 A. I am not with you.

23 Q. Well, you had no memory in 2002.

24 A. Basically, I didn't know -- my mind was messed up.

25 I wasn't aware of certain things, yes.

1 Q. You had no memory in 2006?

2 A. With the Inquiry thing?

3 Q. When you spoke to the Inquiry, you had no memory?

4 A. Basically, it was like, "Yes, I think I remember that.

5 Yes, I remember that."

6 Q. Yet you come here today and you have some memory.

7 A. Yes, I have been thinking about it, yes.

8 Q. Is it not the case that what you have been doing today

9 is simply elaborating on the original anonymous

10 statement and you are not actually recollecting what

11 happened?

12 A. Again, I am not with you, the words you are using.

13 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that it is odd you were

14 unable to remember anything in 2002.

15 A. Right.

16 Q. It is odd you were unable to remember anything in 2006.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. Is it the case that, today, you are still not

19 remembering, but you are simply putting some flesh, as

20 you see it, on this original anonymous statement?

21 A. It is basically what the truth is in the statement.

22 I am trying to explain the best I can with what -- the

23 pictures I am seeing.

24 Q. Do you accept that that's not a true recollection, what

25 you are saying today?

1 A. What I am saying today is basically based on that letter

2 that I handed in. At that time, I was able to remember,

3 you know, what I could remember at that time.

4 Q. Yes, but are you agreeing with me then that what you are

5 telling the Tribunal today is not, in fact, a memory,

6 but it is an elaboration of what's in this statement,

7 since you couldn't remember anything previously?

8 A. What do you mean by "elaboration"? I don't understand.

9 Sorry.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Added to it.

11 MR McGRORY: You are adding to the statement what you think

12 you might have seen and it is not an actual memory.

13 A. It is what I would class as a memory, you know, close

14 enough to that.

15 Q. I have to suggest to you that what you are telling the

16 Tribunal today is not what you remember happening on

17 26th April 1997, but it is putting more detail on what

18 you accept that you wrote down.

19 Do you understand me?

20 A. Yes. Basically just what's wrote down there is what has

21 happened.

22 Q. What I am getting at is that the case that the picture

23 in your head that is created by reading this statement

24 now --

25 A. Right.

1 Q. -- comes from reading the statement. It is not what you

2 actually recall.

3 A. It is what I recall in my mind.

4 Q. Well, I have to suggest to you that you were withholding

5 information from the police in 2002.

6 A. Right.

7 Q. That you had a memory in 2002.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Because --

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that right? Did you have a memory in

11 2002?

12 A. Sorry?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: You didn't?

14 A. Things have happened in my life that my memory has come

15 and go. I have done things that, you know -- it's like,

16 "Did I do that?" I go back and need to check, "Can

17 I remember that?" I would probably be unstable in

18 remembering things.

19 MR McGRORY: I suggest to you, Witness P42, that you weren't

20 being frank with the Inquiry in 2006 when you were

21 interviewed.

22 A. In what way?

23 Q. In that your statement that you had no memory couldn't

24 have been genuine.

25 A. So I was telling lies?

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Why -- what have I got to gain from telling lies?

3 I basically wrote a letter, handed the letter in and

4 that's what I have seen.

5 Q. Well, might you have thought you might not have been

6 called as a witness if you said you had no memory?

7 A. No. I basically saw something, handed the letter in and

8 let whoever had to deal with it, ie, if it was the

9 police to deal with it or whoever had to deal with it,

10 if it was a crime or what it was.

11 Q. You don't think it is odd --

12 A. At that stage, I didn't know there was a murder.

13 I didn't know somebody was injured. I saw an incident,

14 a serious incident, and I handed the letter in.

15 Q. But you knew somebody had been murdered when you spoke

16 to the police in 2002.

17 A. It would have then came to that, but why would I want to

18 tell lies? I have nothing to gain from telling lies.

19 Q. But it might have been helpful had you given as much

20 detail as you could remember then.

21 A. At that time I couldn't remember.

22 Q. Because the people who murdered Mr Hamill might have

23 been caught then in 2002.

24 A. All I can do is apologise.

25 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Ms Dinsmore.

2 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE

3 MS DINSMORE: Your indulgence, Mr Chairman.

4 Just one point.

5 When you first heard the disturbance when you looked

6 out your window, the gentleman whom you heard calling

7 words to the effect, "It's a free country", could you

8 tell me where he was placed? Was he on the pavement or

9 was he in the middle of the road?

10 A. I think he was veering towards the middle of the road.

11 Q. Did you see him walk out at all from the pavement to the

12 middle of the road? Did you see him walking down the

13 middle of the road?

14 A. It was from my side of the flat out to the middle of the

15 road.

16 Q. So you saw him move out from the side, your side of the

17 road, the flat, beneath your flat, out to the middle of

18 the road?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see him walk down the middle of the road then?

21 A. It was heading down towards -- I am not too sure if it

22 was on the road or he was coming off the road or what it

23 was, but he was heading down the road.

24 Q. He was heading down the road, but just so that we are

25 clear, he was not heading down the road on the pavement

1 at this stage; he was heading down the road on the road?

2 A. Part of it, yes.

3 Q. Then in relation to the point where you observed the

4 fighting, that was actually in Thomas Street -- isn't

5 that correct -- at the junction?

6 A. I wouldn't class it as a fight. It was more, you know,

7 somebody run between, but as for a fight or anything ...

8 Q. But that was within Thomas Street itself at the

9 junction --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- as opposed to in Market Street at the junction?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Cross-examination by MR GREEN

15 MR GREEN: Mr Chairman, I have just one or two very brief

16 questions.

17 Mr P42, can you actually now, in this room, casting

18 your mind back to the events of 1997, recall what

19 happened?

20 A. Just with reading the statement there is certain things

21 that you can basically go, "Yes, that happened there and

22 this happened at that".

23 Q. So is your evidence to the Inquiry today reliant very

24 much on the anonymous letter you wrote in 1997?

25 A. It is, yes.

1 Q. Your independent recollection of events without that

2 letter would be poor. Is that right?

3 A. It is. There are things I have read in it and I don't

4 remember that.

5 Q. Now we know from the various documents, P42, that in

6 2002 and 2006 your memory was affected by stress and

7 events in your personal life. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say that that pattern continues to

10 the present day?

11 A. I am now and again going out of the house without

12 different things, having to return. In work I am

13 repeating certain processes that I have had ...

14 Q. I am not going to ask you what the reason for that is,

15 but it is a condition that you find difficult to live

16 with. Is that right?

17 A. I find it difficult and very annoying.

18 Q. Your wife, I think you have told us, has to remind you

19 to do certain things that you really ought to remember

20 to do anyway. Isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Therefore, in 2002 and 2006, and in 2009, you have these

23 deficiencies in memory that will probably last for the

24 rest of your life. Isn't that right?

25 A. I am hoping not to. I am hoping to get some sort of

1 medication or ...

2 Q. Well, have you sought medical treatment for this?

3 A. I have spoken to the doctor. He says, "Basically, you

4 will tend to lose the memory".

5 Q. Can I ask you then, in 1997, what the state of your

6 memory would have been then?

7 A. I know sort of I was very active and I probably didn't

8 have as much stress on my life then. So it would have

9 been pretty okay.

10 Q. So of the four events we are dealing with, that is your

11 writing of the letter the day after the events, your

12 memory was good then. Is that what you are saying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But if we take a snapshot of your life from there until

15 the present day, your memory is deficient. Is that

16 right?

17 A. It is deteriorating, yes.

18 Q. Can I ask you, in 1997, P42, you were living in the

19 Thomas Street area just at the top before it bends round

20 to the British Legion. Isn't that right?

21 A. It was in that corner part.

22 Q. How long had you been living there up until 1997?

23 A. I'm not too sure.

24 Q. Well, were you born in Portadown?

25 A. I wasn't, no.

1 Q. When did you move to Portadown?

2 A. I can't remember exactly when I moved to Portadown.

3 I know it was in my teens.

4 Q. What age were you in 1997?

5 A. I am doing calculations. I can't tell you straightaway.

6 Q. In your early 20s in 1997?

7 A. 20s, yes.

8 Q. I don't want to know where you live now, but do you live

9 in the Portadown area to this day?

10 A. I do, yes.

11 Q. Now, in 1997, there would have been quite a lot of civil

12 unrest in the Portadown area. Isn't that right?

13 A. There is, yes.

14 Q. There was in 1997. Isn't that right?

15 A. At that time, there was -- I am not too sure if it was

16 1997. It was in and around that area. There was a lot

17 of things going on, yes.

18 Q. The Land Rover that you were shown on the map was parked

19 at the top of Woodhouse Street. Isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Woodhouse Street leads down to McKeevers public house.

22 Isn't that right?

23 A. I don't know what's down Woodhouse Street. I don't know

24 what shops.

25 Q. There is a pub down there, isn't there?

1 A. I am not too sure.

2 Q. Have you ever been down that street?

3 A. No. The only time I have ever been down was maybe to go

4 into High Street Mall.

5 Q. Do you know that that street leads to Obins Street and

6 the tunnel area?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. That would be well-known as the Catholic area, the

9 beginning of the Catholic area in Portadown. Isn't that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 1997, were you aware and were you present during

13 periods of civil unrest in the centre of Portadown?

14 A. Not really. As I say, there was, you know, punch-ups

15 and people sort of dispersed after and things like that

16 there.

17 Q. But you lived in Thomas Street. Isn't that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you saying in the time you have lived there that you

20 have never seen a Land Rover parked as it is on the map

21 you were shown?

22 Perhaps he could be shown the map showing LR3,

23 virtual reality. Do you see that map in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you see the shape with an LR3 in it?

1 A. I do, yes.

2 Q. That's at the top of Woodhouse Street. It doesn't say

3 it there, but you can sake it from me that's the top of

4 Woodhouse Street.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Are you saying you have never seen a Land Rover parked

7 in that position, save on the night of this event,

8 27th April?

9 A. The only time I saw Land Rovers in there, they were

10 either patrolling or parked possibly a bit further down.

11 Q. Further down Woodhouse Street?

12 A. No, no. Further down Market Street.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean towards St Mark's Church?

14 A. No, down the other side.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: The other way.

16 A. You know, when they do their patrols and things like

17 that there.

18 MR GREEN: I have no further questions.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

20 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD

21 MR UNDERWOOD: While we are on that, could I please ask for

22 photograph number 4 to be brought up on screen actually

23 from that map? We can open it from there, I think. The

24 bottom photograph. This is a view taken, as we see,

25 roughly from outside Jamesons Bar in the middle of the

1 road. Obviously your flat was much further away than

2 this.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. How different would your view have been to this? Would

5 you have been able to see straight down to the

6 Alliance & Leicester with a bit of Woodhouse Street, as

7 we see here, or were you to the left or to the right?

8 A. I would have seen level -- I think I would have seen

9 level with, you know, Jamesons Bar running down.

10 Q. So a bit to the right, do you think?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Just one other matter. Before you

13 kindly came to give evidence here today, were you shown

14 photographs and the model we have been looking at?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have they assisted your recollection?

17 A. They have helped in a small amount, yes.

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed.

19 Unless there is anything arising, sir ...

20 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr P42, when your wife typed the anonymous

22 letter --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- why did you have that done?

25 A. I am very fiddly with my fingers.

1 Q. Pardon?

2 A. I am very fiddly with my fingers.

3 Q. I am not asking so much why did she type it and not you,

4 but what was your object in having that letter sent to

5 the police?

6 A. To give them as much information about that event that

7 happened.

8 Q. Now, when you were seen by the police again -- I think

9 it was 2002 -- what was your attitude about becoming

10 involved in this inquiry?

11 A. I basically had said to them that the letter that I had

12 handed in was the true facts of what happened that night

13 and that I didn't really want to be involved in either

14 side of the troubles. I wanted to be as helpful as

15 I possibly could.

16 Q. When you were seen by the Inquiry to take your

17 statement --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- what was your attitude at that stage to becoming

20 involved in this Inquiry?

21 A. Again, I wanted to be as helpful as I possibly could and

22 try to help out with the letter that I had handed in.

23 Q. Were you content at that stage to be involved in this

24 Inquiry as a witness or had you thought about that?

25 A. I hadn't really thought. Just I basically wanted to

1 give what I could remember to the team and just leave it

2 at that.

3 Q. But, you see, at that stage you said you had no memory.

4 A. Yes, but I tried to help them as best I could based on

5 the letter that I had handed in.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. Thank you very much for

8 coming. That is the end of your evidence.

9 (The witness withdrew)

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I propose to call Mr Mallon next, but

11 perhaps 2 o'clock might be more convenient.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I see it is 1.10 nearly now, so we will

13 resume again at 2.10.

14 (1.10 pm)

15 (The luncheon adjournment)

16 (2.10 pm)

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I started on to a group of witnesses

19 without explaining first where I am going with that

20 group. Can I attempt to catch up on that?

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, of course.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: This small group deals with a number of

23 important issues. The first of those is: what

24 information was received by the crew of the Land Rover

25 to put them on notice of some sort of impending trouble?

1 Secondly, where was the Land Rover when they were

2 put on notice?

3 Thirdly, how did the violence involving Mr Hamill

4 break out?

5 Fourthly, at what point in the violence could the

6 Land Rover crew have become aware of that violence or

7 that it was imminent?

8 Fifthly, how did the violence develop?

9 Finally, what did the Land Rover crew do once they

10 realised that something was going on?

11 Those are issues which are going to be dealt with by

12 a large number of witnesses across the course of the

13 Inquiry, and I am not suggesting for a moment that this

14 group I am about to call are hermetically sealed from

15 any other witnesses on those issues or that they are at

16 all comprehensive to it.

17 The reason I am dealing with this small group is

18 that, as far as one can tell, they were the ones who

19 were conscious of the very start of the trouble.

20 There is another reason why I am calling this group

21 as one, as it were, which is that what emerges from this

22 group of witnesses is a sharp contradiction between two

23 broad versions of events, as I described in my original

24 opening, one version of which very broadly has the

25 Catholics set upon without warning and the other some

1 other version which involves at least provocation by the

2 Catholics coming up Thomas Street.

3 I have already, of course, in conditions of

4 anonymity and screening called Witness P42, who gives

5 a description of that.

6 The next witness I propose to call is Mr Mallon, who

7 is one of the patrons of St Patrick's Hall, who, as you

8 may recall from the opening, was early out of the Hall,

9 up Thomas Street, and he will say that he spoke to at

10 least one of the people in the Land Rover and in that

11 way put them on notice that people were coming up from

12 St Patrick's Hall.

13 After him, I am proposing to call a number of the

14 other Catholics who were walking up, who will include

15 Colin Prunty and Maureen McCoy, and three people we have

16 now anonymised.

17 You will also in this group hear from other

18 witnesses in Thomas Street, both who worked in

19 Jamesons Bar, and two of whom lived in a flat above

20 Jamesons Bar.

21 I think, without any more introduction, it is apt to

22 call Mr Mallon, who I know has been waiting since about

23 9 o'clock patiently for me to get to him.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

1 MR THOMAS GERARD MALLON (sworn)

2 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Mallon, can you tell us your full names,

4 please?

5 A. Thomas Gerard Mallon.

6 Q. Can I firstly apologise for keeping you waiting so long?

7 A. It is fine.

8 Q. It is very much appreciated that you came so early and

9 held on so patiently.

10 You have, I know, signed a witness statement. Can

11 we have a look at that? It should appear on the screen

12 in front of you at [80756].

13 A. I see it.

14 Q. Can we briefly go through this statement, just flick

15 through the pages quite swiftly? Is this the statement

16 you have now signed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I want to take you back to the

19 first page of it. I want to run you through certain

20 paragraphs to see if you can expand them for us and

21 explain a little more, because, as you appreciate, the

22 Inquiry is interested in getting as much information as

23 it possibly can.

24 You tell us in paragraph 2 there that you were born

25 and bred in Portadown and still live there.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the night of 26th/27th April, you were in

3 St Patrick's Hall?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. If we can look at the standard map, can you just

6 identify some places for us, please?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Again, it will come up on the screen for you. If we

9 look at -- can you see where we are on here? You get

10 West Street and High Street running at one end, and

11 Thomas Street runs up and down.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Going down towards the bottom of Thomas Street, marked

14 at "G", is where we have St Patrick's Hall. Is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So your route on the night was going to be up

18 Thomas Street, across Woodhouse Street.

19 A. Straight down through Woodhouse Street, straight down

20 under the bridge and home into xxxxxxxxxx.

21 Q. If we go back to your statement, please, at [80756], you

22 tell us in paragraph 3 you got there about 10.00 or

23 10.30 that night --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- and met some friends.

1 Then, in paragraph 4, what we have done is introduce

2 some initials for people you say you met. For reasons

3 of anonymity, we are giving those initials. Do you

4 understand who we mean by them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can we go over the page to [80757] and take this

7 paragraph by paragraph if we may? Can I highlight

8 paragraph 6?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You start there by telling us that you left the Hall

11 about 1 o'clock. Now, timing may be very important to

12 the Inquiry. That remains to be seen.

13 A. Sure.

14 Q. Can you help us about how accurate you are about that

15 time?

16 A. My recollection is it was about around 1.00, 1.05.

17 I know there is an issue around timing, but that's my

18 recollection of when I left home -- left

19 St Patrick's Hall. That relates to when I arrived home,

20 the timing. So it is around 1.00, 1.05, no later, as

21 far as I am concerned.

22 Q. You go on to say things were winding down by that time.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you describe the scene? By "winding down", were

25 people getting their coats, just drinking up or what?

1 A. People were -- I spent quite a lot of the evening in the

2 front lounge bar, but people were getting coats, people

3 were waiting outside to use the telephone which was in

4 the hallway. There were quite a number of people

5 waiting there. It was impossible to get to the phone to

6 use the phone.

7 I was told by people who were waiting there that

8 they were being told that there was a long wait on

9 taxis, up to one hour, which is why I made the decision

10 to walk, given that I only live 15 to 20 minutes from --

11 Q. I am so sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

12 Did you get the impression that anybody else had

13 left before you, or were people leaving at that time?

14 A. I didn't see anyone leave in front of me, but it is

15 quite a small hallway. It is -- somebody might have

16 done. I didn't see anyone leave. I mean, it is

17 possible at 1.00, 1.05, some people may have done, but

18 I didn't see anybody leave in front of me.

19 Q. All right.

20 Paragraph 7 next. You say you walked down the

21 right-hand side of Thomas Street heading across the

22 centre of town:

23 "I cannot recall seeing anyone else in

24 Thomas Street."

25 Is that still your recollection of that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. No-one in front?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Anyone behind?

5 A. No. I just walked quickly down Thomas Street into town.

6 I didn't spend time ...

7 Q. Then you tell us:

8 "When I reached the end of Thomas Street where it

9 meets Market Street I noticed some young people milling

10 around."

11 Help us on that, if you could. If we go to the

12 standard model, if we go a bit to the right and stop it

13 there, can you see where we are on this?

14 A. I can, yes. Yes.

15 Q. In relation to that, can you tell us where you saw the

16 people milling about?

17 A. I think, knowing the street, it was slightly above --

18 where they were milling about or where I saw them from?

19 Q. Both. Where were you for a start?

20 A. I was probably just above Jamesons Bar, which is

21 slightly further up that street.

22 Q. Slightly to the right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were they?

25 A. Right down in the town centre. There were people moving

1 across the town centre. So I could see them from where

2 I was moving across the town, you know, groups, small

3 clusters of people moving across the town.

4 Q. I am sorry to jump about. If we can look at

5 page [02161], this is a note -- you may not have seen it

6 before -- of a police officer who interviewed you on

7 29th April.

8 If we can highlight the text, the bottom quarter, he

9 said he spoke to you on 29th April at the station. You

10 said that you left St Patrick's Hall a short time after

11 1 o'clock and walked down Thomas Street and crossed

12 Market Street towards Woodhouse Street.

13 As you crossed Market Street, you saw groups of

14 which you thought totalled 30 to 50 youths.

15 Is it that you saw the youths before you crossed or

16 you didn't see very many of them?

17 A. I saw a few small groups of youths basically just

18 walking across, but I could tell, given the noise on the

19 town -- there was quite a bit of noise -- that there

20 were likely to be more people down it.

21 When I moved right down to the bottom of

22 Thomas Street, then I could see there were more -- there

23 weren't 30 or 50 people in a big group as such, there

24 were little clusters of people, but, in total, there

25 might have been between 30 and 50 people around that

1 area of the town, the town centre.

2 Q. They were coming up, were they, from --

3 A. Some were coming up and some were just moving around.

4 I didn't take time to really look at where people were

5 coming from, I just knew there were people there and

6 I could see them. I didn't spend a lot of time looking

7 around, to be honest. Just, I sensed there were people,

8 I could see people, and I just wanted to get across

9 town.

10 Q. You told us a moment ago there was noise. Can you give

11 us an impression of noise? Was it hostile?

12 A. Just general noise.

13 Q. Shouting?

14 A. Shouting. People might have been shouting across to

15 people they knew across the street. Just general noise.

16 I could tell there were more than a few people --

17 I could see the numbers of people, I could see across --

18 walking across, I could tell there were more people

19 before I got right to the corner.

20 Q. What was the atmosphere?

21 A. To be honest, I was concerned, because I knew that that

22 could be a difficult situation to be walking into. So

23 my priority was to just get across town. I just felt

24 I wanted to get across as quickly as possible. That was

25 my overriding impression. I didn't sense a massive

1 atmosphere, I just knew it wasn't necessarily a good

2 place to be at that time.

3 Q. Forgive me for asking you this. How old were you at the

4 time?

5 A. About 38.

6 Q. Relative to you, how old do you think these people were?

7 Were they younger?

8 A. A lot younger, yes, yes.

9 Q. You are a Catholic, I think.

10 A. I am.

11 Q. Did you get the impression these people were

12 Protestants?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Had you any experience of sectarian tensions in that

15 area before this?

16 A. I think it is well documented. I think most people who

17 come into this room will tell you that Portadown town

18 centre had a reputation as being an area where there

19 were sectarian tensions.

20 Q. You go on in your witness statement to talk about the

21 Land Rover. Can we go to the standard model, please,

22 and let's have a look? This is -- we can leave it there

23 for the moment -- a view -- this is a reconstruction

24 from photographs taken by the police. So we hope it is

25 accurate.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is a view taken, as it were, across the junction.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There is a Land Rover there. We are not suggesting

5 that's where it was when you first moved. Can we pan

6 a bit to the left, please? Hold there, please.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We can see there is a lay-by by Clarks and Instep. In

9 your witness statement at paragraph 8 you say that you

10 saw a Land Rover parked at the lay-by there. You marked

11 it on the map for the Inquiry when you were interviewed.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Here we can give you control of this.

14 A. I can tell you where I was, exactly where I was.

15 Q. Please. What I am going to ask you to do is mark on the

16 screen, because we have that clever facility. So if we

17 can do a screen shot of it and if Mr Mallon can have

18 control of it.

19 A. Can I use this pen?

20 Q. Yes, you can. Please.

21 A. It was just parked in the lay-by. I think that's where

22 the Land Rover was parked.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. I don't think; I know that's where the Land Rover was

25 parked.

1 Q. Can you tell us, please, what happened when you were

2 crossing the road in relation to the Land Rover?

3 A. Sure. As I have said previously, my priority was to get

4 across town as quickly as possible. As I crossed to the

5 centre, the Land Rover started to move forward out of

6 the lay-by, and, at that point, I assumed it was moving

7 from that site, which is why I then attracted the

8 driver's attention.

9 Q. How did you do that?

10 A. I waved my hand. I mean, I was in the centre of the

11 road at this stage and it was just moving forward. So

12 I just waved my hand.

13 Q. Were you in front of it?

14 A. Yes, to the front. The Land Rover was to my left

15 slightly.

16 Q. I think -- because, as you appreciate, the Inquiry has

17 interviewed a number of witnesses, and one of the

18 witnesses it interviewed is one of the police officers

19 who was in the Land Rover.

20 He says he had the impression that you were hostile

21 to the police and he got that impression from the way

22 you waved to the Land Rover. Would you like to comment

23 on that?

24 A. Not particularly. I mean, I wasn't hostile. I didn't

25 approach the police in a hostile manner at all. That's

1 my response to that. I spoke to the driver, who

2 I believe was a woman police constable.

3 Q. What did happen? Did he open the door? I don't think

4 the windows open, do they?

5 A. I think it -- was it a woman police constable driving

6 it. I thought it was a woman driving it.

7 Q. I am afraid I am going to have to try to press you to

8 give the answers rather than --

9 A. I believe it was a woman driving the Land Rover.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. I am not sure whether they opened the door or wound down

12 the window. I spoke directly to them. I can tell

13 you -- do you want me to tell you what I said to them?

14 Q. Please.

15 A. I said, "Are you leaving here? Are you moving away?"

16 They said, "Why?" I said, "Because I have just come

17 from up the street and there are likely to be people

18 coming down behind me."

19 They asked me where I had come from. I said I had

20 come from St Patrick's hall. They said yes. That was

21 the end of the conversation with the police. It wasn't

22 a hostile conversation. There was no discussion

23 whatsoever.

24 Q. Why did you do that?

25 A. Basically because I feared there could be people --

1 well, I suspected there would be people who would not

2 wait for an hour for a taxi at St Patrick's Hall and

3 would walk down to what I believed was a fairly

4 dangerous and difficult situation.

5 Portadown town centre being an area which is fairly

6 well-known for difficult areas and also troubles there,

7 you know, there have been troubles there in the past,

8 I just wanted to try to prevent that happening. That's

9 the only reason I approached the police, for no other

10 reason.

11 Q. In case anybody is interested in your motivation in

12 doing this, did you get the impression -- was it your

13 belief that, by alerting the police, you might assist?

14 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, why else would I?

15 There is no other reason I would have approached the

16 police. I believed, by alerting the police and

17 hopefully the police staying in that area, that

18 hopefully that would be enough prevent any trouble in

19 that area that evening. That's the only reason

20 I approached the police.

21 Q. I want to show you a statement made by one of the

22 witnesses. It is at page [09686]. This is a statement

23 made by one of the four in the Land Rover. If we look

24 at about the middle third of it.

25 A. Sure.

1 Q. There is a passage which starts about five or six

2 lines down:

3 "At approximately 0143 hours we were stopped at the

4 junction of Woodhouse St, Market St with the

5 front of the landrover pointing in the direction of the

6 Halifax Building Society. At this time we were talking

7 to two male youths, one of whom I know as 'Stacey'.

8 A short time later a man who was approximately 35 -

9 40 years old and wearing a navy shirt and dark coloured

10 trousers informed R/Constable Cornett that his

11 mates were coming down from St Pat's Hall towards the

12 town centre."

13 So what he is saying is his recollection was that

14 they were already stopped and they were talking to

15 people when you approached them. Can you comment on

16 that for me?

17 A. That's not my recollection.

18 Q. Has he described you and your clothing there?

19 A. I was wearing a dark navy shirt and a pair of cream

20 Chinos. So I don't know whether -- light-coloured

21 trousers, I don't know whether that's relevant, but

22 that's what I was wearing on the night.

23 Q. All right. Thank you.

24 While we are on the question of Land Rovers in the

25 town centre, had you often or had you previously seen

1 Land Rovers in the town centre with police in them?

2 A. In terms of late at night? I would very rarely have

3 walked, so I wouldn't have been, you know -- this was

4 an exception. I didn't walk normally otherwise.

5 Q. Then, if we go back to the model, please, and if we pan

6 a bit to the right, can you give us any indication on

7 this -- and again, if you could have the control of it

8 and if we do a screen shot -- of where the Land Rover

9 stopped when you waved it down?

10 A. It is actually not too far from that position, to be

11 honest. So I don't need to mark. It was just almost

12 there.

13 Q. Again, can you put a mark on it for us, please? Thank

14 you.

15 Can you tell us precisely what happened once you had

16 finished your discussion with the Land Rover people?

17 A. Yes. I walked -- the conversation was very brief.

18 I walked round the back of the Land Rover, and, as

19 I walked round, a group of youths had come across the

20 Land Rover, having come up from the lower end of the

21 town.

22 Q. Sorry. Let's do it on this, shall we? If we can pan to

23 the right.

24 A. Sorry.

25 Q. No, that's fine. Again, if we can do a screen shot with

1 you in control. Can you draw a line for us about where

2 you went?

3 A. Sorry?

4 Q. I should have said let's have a screen shot. That's

5 entirely my fault. Right.

6 A. This group of four youths had come from that direction

7 and I sort of met them as we -- as I walked round the

8 back of the Land Rover, I met them there.

9 Q. Right.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say they had come from the lower end

11 of the town, looking at this, because I am afraid

12 I didn't see the line you were marking, is that from the

13 right of the photographs?

14 A. Sorry. From the right as we look at the screen?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Sorry. Could you stick a couple of arrows at

18 the end of your red lines? I don't know how easy it is

19 to write on this screen.

20 A. I have not a very steady hand. Do we need another shot?

21 Sorry.

22 Q. That's fine.

23 A. They came from that side of the Land Rover.

24 Q. What happened?

25 A. I actually -- when I walked round the back of the

1 Land Rover, I basically walked into the centre of these

2 guys, not intentionally, but just because two of them

3 were walking to the front and two of them -- I was sort

4 of in the middle. I was immediately a wee bit

5 apprehensive, but one of them asked me where I was

6 going, and -- I remember the words very clearly --

7 I said, "I am going home. I don't want any hassle".

8 He said -- he had a bottle of wine and I was very

9 conscious of the bottle because there were two youths

10 behind me and two in front of me. I was very conscious

11 of the bottle. He said, "Have a drink of wine". I said

12 "I don't drink wine. I don't want any hassle. I am

13 going home".

14 Again, he said, "Have a drink of the wine". I put

15 my hands forward to -- just in case he did raise the

16 bottle, but he didn't, and I left at that point. There

17 was no altercation. There was no real aggressiveness.

18 It was just a situation I felt was a bit dangerous for

19 me and I just had to get away.

20 Q. How was he holding the bottle?

21 A. I think he was holding the bottle just as you would hold

22 a bottle. I mean, hold a bottle.

23 Q. By the base, as it were, rather than by the neck?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can I ask you to look at page [06346], please? This is

1 the statement of one of the other officers in the

2 Land Rover. Can I pick it up about six lines from the

3 bottom? It starts on the left-hand side with

4 "Constable Neill". What he is saying there is:

5 "... Constable Neill moved off from the kerb and as

6 he did so a male dressed in a greenish/blue shirt aged

7 about 30/35 years, with dark trousers and short brown

8 hair passed in front of the landrover and mouthed

9 something towards the vehicle. I formed the opinion

10 that he was continuing on into Woodhouse Street and that

11 he was heading home from St Patrick's Hall,

12 Thomas Street."

13 So there this officer doesn't have you stopping and

14 talking to them.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. Again, your evidence is you did?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. Then this part:

19 "As he did so 2 youths approached him from the

20 Halifax ..."

21 If we can go over the page [06347] and take the top

22 half, please:

23 "... Building Society and one of them squared up to

24 him in the mouth of Woodhouse Street."

25 Would you accept that's a fair description?

1 A. No. They weren't two youths. I walked round the back

2 of the Land Rover, not round the front of the Land Rover

3 and I spoke to them quite sharply to say I didn't want

4 any alcohol, I didn't want any hassle. That was it.

5 There was no squaring up. There was no real aggression

6 of any kind.

7 Q. Then he goes on to say:

8 "Words were exchanged but no contact took place."

9 That's accurate, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then:

12 "R/Const Cornett opened her door and told

13 the 2 youths to clear off home."

14 Do you recall that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. He says:

17 "At this time we were parked on the give way

18 lines at the top of the street facing down the town.

19 There was a commotion behind the landrover and suddenly

20 Const Neill's door was pulled open and the Constable

21 was pulled out. I jumped out of the back of the vehicle

22 to see what was happening and found the male I have

23 previously described", that's you, "having

24 an altercation with Constable Neill."

25 Would you like to comment on that?

1 A. Again, not really, because it is not factual. It is

2 absolutely not the case. That's all I can say.

3 Q. Okay. Did you see any officers get out of the

4 Land Rover at any stage?

5 A. As I walked towards the point in Woodhouse Street where

6 you can see no further in terms of -- I didn't really

7 look behind a lot; I just walked -- I looked at that

8 point and there was a police constable speaking to

9 youths at the side of the Land Rover, the youths I had

10 been speaking to. But this was like -- in my opinion,

11 this was not at 1.40 am.

12 Q. Two things there. Can you say whether it was a male or

13 female?

14 A. It was a male.

15 Q. So a male officer had got out. Did you see the officer

16 get out or just see the officer?

17 A. No, I turned and glanced over my shoulder and he was

18 speaking to the youths at the Land Rover. I don't know

19 whether he was speaking to all of them or two of them,

20 but he was speaking to the youths I had spoken to, yes.

21 Q. If we go back to your witness statement at page [80759],

22 we get at paragraph 20:

23 "I walked down Woodhouse Street and at one point

24 looked back."

25 That's what you have just told us:

1 "I saw a policeman get out of the Land Rover ..."

2 That's what you say there. I am not trying to catch

3 you out.

4 A. No, no. At that time, if I said I saw him get out, then

5 I might have done. I assume I did.

6 Q. "... and speak to the lads I referred to above."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then you go on:

9 "I am almost certain the policeman got out of the

10 back of the Land Rover. He was quite tall with average

11 build and short hair."

12 Is that your recollection now or not?

13 A. I would -- I mean, policemen are quite tall, of

14 a similar build and so on. It was just -- I didn't take

15 a lot of time to look. I was just keen to move on and

16 go home.

17 Q. Okay. I want to take you to a few other pieces of

18 witness statements and evidence that show to this

19 question again.

20 Can I start with page [00504]? If we take -- I need

21 to read through this without highlighting any part of

22 it. About six lines from the top there is a sentence

23 which starts in the middle of the line:

24 "As I turned to walk away I was approached by

25 a youth..."

1 This, I should tell you, to be fair, is a witness

2 statement you made on 12th May 1997. You say:

3 "As I turned to walk away I was approached by

4 a youth there was a group of maybe four or five with

5 him. They all looked to be about 18 or 19 years of

6 age."

7 Would that be your recollection?

8 A. That's fair.

9 Q. "The youth that approached me asked me where I was

10 going."

11 You have told us that already:

12 "I felt threatened by the whole situation I was

13 apprehensive."

14 Again, is that still a fair description?

15 A. Yes, I was apprehensive.

16 Q. "I saw that he was carrying a glass bottle of 'Buckfast'

17 in his right hand. I was concerned I might be hit with

18 the bottle although this youth did not make an attempt

19 to hit me, because I was concerned about the bottle

20 I held my hands out in front of me."

21 Again, that's what you described.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. "I told the youth I was going home and that I didn't

24 want any hassle, I just wanted to get away from them.

25 He said to me stand here a while, I immediately went

1 at that stage."

2 Did he try to keep you there rather than just

3 offering you a drink?

4 A. He was keen that I have a drink of wine, and that I --

5 if I said at that time he was keen, then I suspect he

6 was, but there was no aggressiveness or altercation as

7 such. It was just a conversation.

8 Q. Right.

9 A. He asked me twice to have a drink of wine and I refused.

10 Q. Okay. After you said you immediately went, you go on

11 then:

12 "As I was walking away I was aware that a policeman

13 had got out of the landrover. I don't know what the

14 policeman did after that as I walked on down

15 Woodhouse Street."

16 So you have not there told the police that you saw

17 a policeman talking to the lads. Is that because this

18 is inaccurate or that your recollection is varied?

19 A. My recollection is very clear. I did see a policeman

20 speaking to lads at the Land Rover. That's very clear.

21 Q. You appreciate the importance of this --

22 A. No, I do, I do. It's a long time ago --

23 Q. That's why I am testing your evidence --

24 A. -- yes, absolutely.

25 Q. There is no criticism.

1 A. I did see a policeman speaking to the lads when I was

2 leaving the area of Woodhouse Street where I could see

3 the Land Rovers.

4 Q. Another version of this can I put at [06347]? This is

5 further in the statement of the police officer who says

6 it was you who pulled the police constable out. In

7 fact, I think I have probably got all I need to get out

8 of that one.

9 If we go instead to page [09687], this is

10 a statement of one of the other officers. If we take

11 the top five lines, this is an officer who described

12 a man wearing a navy shirt and dark-coloured trousers

13 telling the lady officer that your mates were coming

14 down. He says here:

15 "The male who was wearing the navy shirt and dark

16 trousers came over to me and shouted, 'What the fuck are

17 you going to do?' I tried to get this male into

18 Woodhouse Street for his own safety and to stop further

19 confrontation with the other males. At this time

20 another male who was wearing a white sweatshirt type top

21 came running from the direction of Woodhouse Street."

22 So what you have here is a second officer from the

23 Land Rover saying that you were there at the time there

24 was a commotion at a time when you tell us you had gone

25 down Woodhouse Street.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you comment on that, please?

3 A. This is not the case. I was not there. I did not

4 approach the Land Rover again. I walked straight down

5 Woodhouse Street, spoke to somebody I have mentioned in

6 my statement and went straight home. That's the

7 absolute truth.

8 Q. I think what might be suggested against you -- and let

9 me, out of fairness, put it to you myself -- is the

10 possibility that you were quite drunk --

11 A. That's not the case.

12 Q. -- that you had had this confrontation with four or five

13 youths --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- and you were quite irritated by it.

16 A. Absolutely not the case.

17 Q. And that, when some trouble broke out, you decided to

18 join in and have a go at the police.

19 A. Not the case. Absolutely not the case.

20 Q. All right. I am going back to your witness statement,

21 if I may, which is at [80759]. At paragraph 22, if we

22 can bring that up, you start there by saying:

23 "When I got towards the end of Woodhouse Street

24 I saw two men, one of whom I recognised as Colin Hull."

25 You say you knew him quite well.

1 It is fair to say there is a question mark about

2 whether Colin Hull was there and whether instead he was

3 one of the people who had been at St Patrick's Hall.

4 Are you sure that you saw him there?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. If we go down to paragraph 23, you say there:

7 "He asked me", this is Colin Hull, "what was

8 happening, because he must have heard noise from the

9 town centre. I had a brief chat with Colin and told him

10 not to go anywhere near the town centre but to go back

11 home instead."

12 Had the noise increased by the time you got up to

13 meet with Mr Hull?

14 A. Not really. I am not sure whether Colin had actually

15 seen the Land Rover move to the top of Woodhouse Street

16 and that's why he asked me what was happening. I don't

17 quite remember, but he asked me what was happening and

18 I said, "There is a lot of people in the town. Stay

19 clear. Don't go up the town".

20 It was a very brief conversation as I was passing.

21 At that time, I was particularly keen just to get home.

22 Q. Okay. If we go to page [80760], your paragraph 24, you

23 say:

24 "I did not meet anyone else after that. I got home

25 at about 01.25. I tried to telephone St Patrick's Hall

1 to warn them that there were a lot of people in town and

2 that the town centre should be avoided. Unfortunately

3 I could not get through on the telephone."

4 How clear are you about the timing?

5 A. As far as I am concerned, that is absolutely correct.

6 Q. Do you get that by starting with the idea that you left

7 at 1 o'clock and it takes you 25 minutes to get home?

8 A. I get that by that, but also the fact that I had

9 a conversation with my wife when I arrived home about

10 phoning St Patrick's Hall to try to tell people not to

11 come down into the town centre.

12 Had the police checked my telephone -- I don't know

13 if they did, but, had they done, they may well have been

14 able to verify that. That's around the time I believe

15 I arrived home. I have checked that a number of times

16 with my wife as well. That's why I am convinced it was

17 around that time. When I realised the timing on the

18 other statements, that's when I was a bit concerned

19 about timing.

20 Q. You tell us that you stopped the Land Rover and you

21 warned the crew and, having hurried home, you took the

22 trouble to phone St Patrick's Hall.

23 Why this level of concern?

24 A. Because, as I have said already, I thought there was

25 a potential for a dangerous situation in Portadown that

1 night. I thought there was potential for trouble. It

2 is a contentious area and that has been mentioned

3 a number of times.

4 I just did what I thought was the right thing to do.

5 That's why I spoke to the police. As I say, I am quite

6 angry about some of the statements that have been

7 produced as a result of me doing what I thought was the

8 right thing to do in terms of trying to prevent

9 a difficult and dangerous situation developing in

10 Portadown town centre.

11 Q. If we go down to paragraph 26 of your statement, you

12 point out that you were interviewed on 29th April with

13 a questionnaire and again on 12th May. Then a statement

14 was taken from you.

15 We can look at those, if we need to, but can I just

16 have a look at page [02161]? We have seen this before.

17 It is the note of an officer who interviewed you on

18 29th April. It is just the last sentence I am

19 interested in. As of 29th April, you declined to make

20 a statement. Is that right?

21 A. I wasn't actually clear what that meant, "declined to

22 make a statement", because I did make a statement.

23 I did go to the police when I was asked to.

24 Q. Help us on how this worked, because one of the other

25 things that the Inquiry is going to be very interested

1 in is the way in which the investigation progressed.

2 A. Sure.

3 Q. You had this interview on 29th April with the officer we

4 see described there. How did that come about?

5 A. I am not actually very clear on how that happened, to be

6 perfectly honest with you.

7 Q. Did they come to you or did you go to them?

8 A. I actually think -- I am not certain about how I came to

9 be there, but I have never actually declined to make

10 a statement. I have never said, "No, I will not make

11 a statement". I did go to the police station and make

12 a statement to the police.

13 Q. On 12th May, there is another questionnaire. Again, we

14 can look at it if you want to. Can you recall how it is

15 that you were interviewed a second time within about

16 three weeks?

17 A. No. I'm not sure. I am being perfectly honest.

18 I don't recall being interviewed a second time, to tell

19 you the truth.

20 Q. If I show it to you, it may help. It is at [08149].

21 This is slightly different to the answers given in the

22 questionnaire we saw for 29th April. Does it jog your

23 memory to look at this?

24 A. It doesn't jog my memory in terms of visiting the police

25 station twice to speak to the police. I am sorry if

1 that's a problem. I just don't recall being there twice

2 to speak to them. I know I was asked to phone them.

3 I don't know where that message came -- this was the

4 initial contact, it was, can I phone? I think they had

5 phoned my house and asked if I would contact them, and

6 I did do.

7 I remember doing that and I remember arranging to go

8 and speak to them, and I did, but I don't remember going

9 back a second time.

10 Q. Did you have any trouble cooperating with the police?

11 A. Not particularly, no.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Mallon. Other people

13 may ask you questions, but those are the questions

14 I have for you.

15 MR FERGUSON: No questions.

16 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR

17 MR ADAIR: May I ask just a few matters, Mr Mallon?

18 Just when I am starting, I wonder, could you bring

19 up again the junction and the reconstruction, please?

20 Sorry. I do not have a page number for the ... yes.

21 That's fine.

22 Now, Mr Mallon, so I am absolutely clear, when you

23 came down Thomas Street there was no-one either in front

24 of you or behind you, as best you recall?

25 A. Walking in front of me?

1 Q. Walking behind or in front of you, as best you recall?

2 A. As best I recall, no, no.

3 Q. I think you have told us incidentally -- and this is not

4 a criticism -- that beyond any doubt you were not drunk

5 that night. Is that right?

6 A. That's my opinion. Absolutely.

7 Q. In your Inquiry statement you did say that you can't

8 remember if you were drunk.

9 A. To be perfectly honest, I read that and that was -- I

10 have to admit that was an attempt at nervous humour.

11 I know I wasn't drunk that night.

12 I had a conversation with my wife about what had

13 happened. I talked to her about that. I am very clear

14 about that.

15 Q. That's fine. I am just asking about what was contained

16 in your statement in case there is any prevarication

17 about that.

18 A. Sure.

19 Q. Now, you do describe in Market Street and so on that

20 there were groups of people. That is the impression

21 I am getting from you. Is that right?

22 A. Sure, sure.

23 Q. There was noise?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I think you have described some of it you would describe

1 as shouting.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But there was nothing at that time per se in itself

4 going on such as fighting or --

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. -- aggravation --

7 A. No.

8 Q. -- or people running across and shouting at each other

9 in a violent, aggressive or hostile way?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. So I suppose the difference -- again, you have told us

12 about the tensions in Portadown at that time between the

13 various factions.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The reason you felt the apprehension was not because of

16 what was actually happening, but because of your

17 knowledge of the area and what can potentially happen?

18 A. Because I was aware that people were likely to come from

19 St Patrick's Hall down to the town centre. There was

20 the potential for trouble that I was concerned about.

21 There was nothing happening in the town centre when

22 I approached, otherwise I would have hesitated crossing.

23 Q. At all?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But the people who we are assuming were the Protestants,

1 who were in the main street, were not, at that stage,

2 when you were crossing the street -- apart from being

3 boisterous on a Saturday night, there was no aggression

4 or hostility?

5 A. Not that I was aware of.

6 Q. Now, when you -- again, I am sure it is absolutely my

7 fault, Mr Mallon, but when you were crossing the road,

8 the Land Rover, did you say, was parked in the lay-by?

9 A. Yes. LR1, yes.

10 Q. Is it again approximately LR1?

11 A. Slightly in front of that, but, yes -- around -- in that

12 lay-by, yes.

13 Q. In that general area?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. As you went across the road, the Land Rover went to move

16 off?

17 A. I assumed the Land Rover was moving off. It moved into

18 the road and moved forward. So I assumed they were

19 moving from that area.

20 Q. It looked like the direction of the Land Rover was down

21 towards the bottom of the town?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. As if they were going to head down the bottom of the

24 town?

25 A. Move towards the -- I thought they were moving from that

1 position.

2 Q. You didn't want them to move away from that junction --

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- because of the potential?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you waved at them and stopped them?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. Again, you went and spoke to the driver, whom you

9 believe was --

10 A. I believe it was a WPC.

11 Q. -- a woman police officer. Did she open the door?

12 A. I am not sure if she opened the door or opened the

13 window, but I spoke directly to her.

14 Q. Are you absolutely sure it was the driver's side you

15 went to?

16 A. Absolutely 100%.

17 Q. You are absolutely sure it was a woman police officer

18 who was driving?

19 A. You have cast some doubt on that because you have asked

20 me several questions about it, but my recollection is

21 that it was a woman driver. I spoke to a woman.

22 Q. I don't think there is any issue between any of us.

23 I think the general impression we are having from the

24 remainder of the statement is that it was a man who was

25 driving the car and the woman police officer was in the

1 passenger's side?

2 A. No, I definitely went to the driver's side, without

3 a doubt.

4 Q. Okay. Now where was the Land Rover then when you spoke

5 to the officers?

6 A. It was just at the top of Woodhouse Street.

7 Q. Does LR2 or LR3 help?

8 A. LR2 would have been where it was, but I think it may

9 have moved forward. I would have said it was somewhere

10 between those two, to be honest with you, when I spoke

11 to them, because I came across on the little -- there is

12 a little piece goes up through the town centre which is

13 a risen -- like a -- you know, through the middle of the

14 town.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I crossed on that. So I just went across and spoke to

17 them there.

18 Q. Your best guess is somewhere between LR2 and LR3?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As per what you told Detective Constable McAteer, these

21 are not the words recorded, but do they reflect what you

22 told to the police; that you said to them that they

23 should stay where they were parked in case anything

24 happened with the crowd coming down?

25 A. I think I asked them where they were going, were they

1 moving, and they asked "Why?" I said, "I have just come

2 from up the street". They asked me very clearly where

3 I was coming from, and I said "St Patrick's Hall. I am

4 concerned that other people will follow down because

5 there are no taxis up there".

6 Q. You wanted them to park in that area?

7 A. Stay in that area, yes.

8 Q. They, in fact, did then park in that area?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So, as a result of your warning, and as a result of

11 a request to stay parked because of the potential for

12 trouble, that's exactly what they did?

13 A. I mean, I wasn't there. I left the area after I spoke to

14 the police, so, I mean ...

15 Q. But while you were there --

16 A. Yes, they were there.

17 Q. -- that's precisely what the police did? When you

18 warned them of the potential for trouble and asked them

19 to park there, that's precisely, as far as you are

20 aware, what they did --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- rather than, as from your first impression when you

23 saw the vehicle, drive up the town?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, when you were walking then -- I know there is then

1 a meeting, if I might neutrally call it that, with two

2 people, one of whom has a bottle and so on --

3 A. There were four people.

4 Q. -- and two of whom I think you were more directly

5 involved with.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then you make your way up Woodhouse Street?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. We know at one stage you looked back down towards the

10 Land Rover. Am I right in saying, at that point in

11 time, you could not see anybody coming down

12 Thomas Street?

13 A. No. The Land Rover was right across. I couldn't see.

14 I was on the left side of Woodhouse Street looking up,

15 so I couldn't see beyond the Land Rover really, to be

16 honest with you. I couldn't see beyond that point.

17 Q. You couldn't hear any noise coming from Thomas Street at

18 that point?

19 A. Not at that point.

20 Q. Finally, just so I am clear and the Tribunal is clear

21 about it, had the Land Rover moved slightly further

22 forward towards the corner when you looked back from

23 Woodhouse Street or was it in the same position? If you

24 can't say, say "I can't say".

25 A. I can't be certain about that. I can't be certain.

1 When I looked up Woodhouse Street -- I just glanced and

2 looked up Woodhouse Street, the Land Rover was fairly

3 central, you know, in terms of looking up the street.

4 I can't say it had moved between the time I spoke to

5 them and having looked back up again.

6 MR ADAIR: Thank you very much, Mr Mallon.

7 MR McGRORY: I have no questions, sir.

8 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE

9 MS DINSMORE: If I may, Mr Chairman.

10 Mr Mallon, so I am clear, you come down

11 Thomas Street. You are on your own, and, when you get

12 down there, what do you say you observed at that stage?

13 A. When I got to where I could see on to the town centre?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I saw a few people walking across the bottom of

16 Thomas Street and, as I moved further on, I saw the

17 Land Rover parked in the lay-by straight across.

18 Q. Did you observe anything further about those persons?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now the Inquiry have the helpful assistance of not only

21 your Inquiry statement but also the statement that you

22 made proximate to the time in 1997.

23 Now, in your Inquiry statement you said you met with

24 a lot of noise, singing and chanting.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You made no mention of that in 1997. Now, have we

2 a third version today --

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- which is "just some milling around"?

5 A. There was general noise on the town. That's what I am

6 saying.

7 Q. Noise, but no singing, no chanting?

8 A. Well, I haven't said that. I mean, nobody has asked me

9 about that.

10 Q. Well, paragraph --

11 A. I mean, you are talking about a lot of noise. Whether

12 people were singing or chanting, there was just a lot of

13 noise on the town centre.

14 Q. I refer to it only because your other statement has said

15 singing and some kind of chanting. Really, we are all

16 very concerned to find out exactly what was going on.

17 A. Sure.

18 Q. So whatever you observed, the next thing you observed,

19 of course, is a police Land Rover.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You observed it in two positions, am I correct in

22 thinking? Did you observe it moving off or --

23 A. I observed it moving from the lay-by into the road.

24 Q. So you observed it moving from LR1 to either LR2 or LR3?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you recall whether it was LR2 or LR3?

2 A. I mean, there isn't a great deal of difference between

3 LR2 and LR3. It was towards the towards the top of

4 Woodhouse Street when I approached them.

5 Q. In any event, it is the top of Woodhouse Street?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Whatever you observed, it had an implication for you

8 that you considered it appropriate to draw matters to

9 the attention of the police personnel in the police

10 Land Rover?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, could you just tell us now what you remember today

13 as to how you went about calling matters to the

14 personnel in the police Land Rover?

15 A. Well, I have already stated that I waved my hand at the

16 Land Rover.

17 Q. Yes. You have said in your original statement that you

18 waved. You have said in your questionnaire that you

19 waved. You did not actually say in your Inquiry

20 statement that you waved, but the Inquiry can take it

21 that your evidence is that you waved?

22 A. That's what I recall.

23 Q. My learned friend for the Inquiry has taken you to

24 statements off police personnel, and certainly they

25 suggest there was a gesticulation and a waving on your

1 part.

2 Now, the tone of that is clearly a matter of

3 dispute, but we are ad idem, are we not? We are in

4 agreement that you were gesticulating and waving?

5 A. I would say waving as opposed to gesticulating. Very

6 clearly, very clearly on that.

7 Q. Well, there is -- well, one does not want to be

8 pedantic --

9 A. I can only tell you I waved at the police to stop the

10 Land Rover.

11 Q. Right. Very helpful indeed --

12 A. I can't says more.

13 Q. -- but there is waving good afternoon and --

14 A. I appreciate that, but I think what you are trying to

15 imply is that I was gesticulating at the police. I was

16 not. I was waving at the police in a very orderly

17 manner. I was not being aggressive.

18 Q. Why don't we just show the Inquiry the wave, so we know?

19 A. Is this necessary? I waved at the police to attract

20 their attention.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have the picture.

22 MS DINSMORE: You have the picture. I am obliged,

23 Mr Chairman.

24 So you get to the waving --

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. -- and drawing to the attention of the police. Do you

2 hear -- you observe youths at that stage?

3 A. I mean, to be honest, there were a lot of youths both

4 sides of that area. So, you know, I could sense there

5 were --

6 Q. Could we focus you in on what you observed in relation

7 to the proximity of youths in the region of the

8 Land Rover?

9 A. I think there were youths practically spread around that

10 area, but not that close to the Land Rover. It was, you

11 know, as in, you know, yards but certainly in that area

12 of the crossing that there were youths on either side of

13 that.

14 Q. Now, were they about when you spoke to the policewoman?

16 A. They were generally spread out across the town.

17 Q. Do you remember a policewoman opening the front

18 passenger door?

19 A. I said she either opened the door or lowered the window.

20 I can't remember, to be absolutely certain at this

21 stage.

22 Q. Do you remember where you were when she did that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were you?

25 A. As I said, I have believed I was at the driver's side

1 door.

2 Q. You were really at Constable Neill's door then?

3 A. Well, I have said I believe I spoke to a woman

4 constable. I believed she was driving.

5 Q. Right. You have two things. One is speaking with

6 a woman constable, but, in addition to that, the Inquiry

7 know now you have a clear recall of being at the side of

8 the driver's door of that police Land Rover.

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. You have that clear recall. We know it is common case

11 that that was not a policewoman.

12 A. That's fine.

13 Q. But what is very helpful for the Inquiry is they know

14 you can tell the Inquiry, "I am there at the driver's

15 door at some stage during this".

16 A. Can I ask a question? Was there a policewoman in the

17 front of Land Rover?

18 Q. Yes, there was.

19 A. I could have made that -- I just ...

20 Q. I am subject, of course, to the Chairman's note, but the

21 one thing you had a very clear recall of was that you

22 were definitely present at the side of the driver's

23 door. We will come back to that.

24 Now, if we look at the position in relation to the

25 youths that were about at this stage, and these were

1 youths then that you had -- and I am trying to be as

2 unemotive as I can be -- an exchange with.

3 A. Not my recollection.

4 Q. Well --

5 A. An exchange of words.

6 Q. An exchange of words.

7 A. That's fine.

8 Q. Don't let me in any way mislead you, but I have

9 a measure of concern regarding the different emphasis of

10 tone in relation to the two versions that you have given

11 regarding this exchange.

12 In your initial statement, you accept, do you not,

13 that:

14 "The youth that approached me asked me where I was

15 going."

16 Now, you are 38 years of age at this stage?

17 A. Absolutely, correct.

18 Q. There is a youth approaching you. This is what you say,

19 how you felt at that time:

20 "I felt threatened by the whole situation I was

21 apprehensive. I saw he was carrying a glass bottle of

22 'Buckfast' in his right hand. I was concerned that

23 I might be hit with the bottle although this youth did

24 not make an attempt to hit me, because I was concerned about

25 the bottle."

1 In fact, you took action. You put your hand up.

2 That is the tone of that exchange then.

3 Now, when you come to make your statement to the

4 Inquiry, really I suggest that there is maybe

5 a different emphasis, that this gentleman asked you

6 would you like to partake of some wine --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- and you graciously declined.

9 Now, what was the appropriate scenario? What would

10 the independent man on the Clapham omnibus looking down

11 observe? What is your recall today now? Was it you

12 being threatened with Buckfast or was it "Glass of

13 wine?", "No, I am moving on home". Which was it?

14 A. No, I have said that I was not threatened. I felt --

15 Q. You felt threatened?

16 A. -- the situation was threatening. I felt I was in

17 a situation that could develop into something.

18 I was apprehensive, but the youth didn't attempt to

19 hit me with the bottle. Maybe that's because I did put

20 my hands in front of me and made it very clear I did not

21 want any hassle and I didn't want any of his wine.

22 Maybe that's why. I don't know.

23 Q. It is just, you see, when you come to do your statement

24 to the Inquiry what you say is:

25 "The youths were not threatening."

1 A. Well, they didn't threaten. The situation was

2 threatening.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: The witness has said a number of times he was

4 not threatened. He said, "In this situation, this part

5 of the town, Saturday night, I felt, if you like, the

6 potential". "Potential" is my word.

7 A. That's what I am trying to say. I felt the situation

8 could be threatening, but they did not threaten me.

9 That's two completely different things, in my opinion.

10 MS DINSMORE: Then we will move on.

11 So then you proceed off down Woodhouse Street.

12 Where do you live, by the way?

13 A. xxxxxxxxxx.

14 Q. How far down Woodhouse Street would xxxxxxxxxx be?

15 A. It is about, I would say, half a mile, quite long.

16 Q. How long would it take you to walk from the top of

17 Woodhouse Street to xxxxxxxxxx?

18 A. Well, top of Woodhouse Street, xxxxxxxxxx begins about

19 200, 300 yards down that street, so not that long.

20 Q. Where is the shopping centre in relation to

21 Woodhouse Street and the bend?

22 A. The shopping centre is 100 metres, maybe slightly more,

23 from the top of Woodhouse Street, the entrance there.

24 Q. As you proceeded down Woodhouse Street, isn't it correct

25 to say you looked back at one stage?

1 A. I glanced over my shoulder, yes.

2 Q. You glanced over your shoulder. On glancing over your

3 shoulder, can you tell the Inquiry what you saw?

4 A. I saw a policeman. I saw him speaking to a number of

5 youths at the side of the Land Rover. I think I have

6 already said that.

7 Q. Yes. What did you do then?

8 A. I walked on.

9 Q. Are you sure about that?

10 A. I'm absolutely certain. Can I say something and make it

11 very clear? If I had anything to bring to this Inquiry

12 or had I anything to bring to the police inquiry at the

13 time that would have been of help, I would have done it.

14 I walked straight home. I spoke to somebody at the

15 bottom -- towards the bottom of Woodhouse Street and

16 I walked straight home. I know that to be the fact of

17 the case. That's all I can say. I can't make it any

18 clearer than that. You know, I did not return to the

19 top of Woodhouse Street at any time on that night.

20 Q. There are just two things. One, you accept at one stage

21 you were at the driver's side. You deny that there is

22 any question that you pulled any policeman out of the

23 vehicle.

24 A. Without doubt.

25 Q. Do you know what has been suggested?

1 A. I have read the statement.

2 Q. Do you know it has been suggested that you did do so and

3 you are saying that's palatably wrong?

4 A. I am saying the person who said that is mistaken.

5 That's all I can say.

6 Q. That's mistake number one.

7 In relation to the second aspect, I now have to put

8 to you that it has been suggested in the Inquiry papers

9 that you were involved in an assault on one of the

10 policemen.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You are aware of that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are you aware that in relation to that assault it is

15 alleged that a baton strap was broken?

16 A. Yes, I have read the statement, yes.

17 Q. You have read that. Is it your view that that is just

18 wrong?

19 A. Again, I would say the witness who produced that

20 statement is mistaken.

21 Q. Sorry?

22 A. The witness is mistaken. Absolutely not me. Absolutely

23 not me.

24 Q. I put that to you and you just say, "That's definitely

25 not me"?

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. You have also said later on in your Inquiry statement --

3 you make reference to Colin Hull?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you aware that there is a dispute -- and I am

6 putting this to you to give you an opportunity to deal

7 with this -- that there is an issue as to whether Hull

8 acknowledges that scenario?

9 A. Actually speaking to me?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. That's something you need to speak to Colin about,

12 because I am absolutely certain I spoke to him. I know

13 I spoke to him.

14 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much, Mr Mallon.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: I have nothing arising out of that, sir.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Mallon.

18 Thanks for coming.

19 A. Can I take this with me?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

21 (The witness withdrew)

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I continually overestimate the time it

23 is going to take to get through a witness. That leads

24 to another early evening. We are making great progress

25 as we go. I propose to call at least two more tomorrow,

1 but nothing else to offer for today.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 in the morning. It may take a little

3 time to estimate our briefness or loquacity.

4 (3.10 pm)

5 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am tomorrow morning)

6 --ooOoo--

1 I N D E X

3 WITNESS P42 (affirmed)

4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ................. 1

5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............... 20

6 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ............. 27

7 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE ............ 38

8 Cross-examination by MR GREEN ............... 39

9 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD .............. 44

10 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ................. 45

11
MR THOMAS GERARD MALLON (sworn)
12

13 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ................. 50

14 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............... 78

15 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE ............ 86

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 20th January 2009, day 5