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Hearing: 14th May 2009, day 49
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 14th May 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 49
1 Thursday, 14th May 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. Charles Andrews, please.
4 MR CHARLES DONALD ANDREWS (sworn )
5 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Andrews. My name is
7 Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry. I have some
8 questions for you. At the end of that, some other
9 people may have some follow-up questions for you.
10 What you are your full names please?
11 A. Constable Charles Donald Andrews.
12 Q. Can we have a look at the scene and we will have
13 page [80020] come up? It is a five-page document. Can
14 I ask you to keep your eyes on it while we scroll
15 through the five pages?
16 Is that your witness statement?
17 A. It is, sir, yes.
18 Q. Is it true?
19 A. It is, sir.
20 Q. I want to ask you about the search -- two searches,
21 principally the search of Allister Hanvey's premises on
22 10th May 1997. Can I ask you, first of all, to look at
23 the warrant? We find that at page [51350]. This is the
24 HOLMES version of it. We see underneath the second
25 line:
1
1 "Whereas it appears from the application on
2 Affirmation of Dereck Bradley, a constable of the Royal
3 Ulster Constabulary of Portadown, that there is reasonable
4 cause to believe that certain articles, namely trainers
5 and clothing sought in connection with the offence of
6 murder are on the premises of Allister Hanvey ..."
7 Then it gives the address and provides the warrant.
8 So the degree of specificity, if you like, of what the
9 warrant was about was trainers and clothing sought in
10 connection with the offence of murder.
11 Do I understand you have no recollection of the
12 briefing of this now or particularly what you were
13 looking for?
14 A. I don't recollect what we were actually told to search
15 for, sir, no.
16 Q. Your notebook has gone missing in a move, I think?
17 A. The notebook had gone missing, but it has been
18 discovered again and it has subsequently been given to
19 Mr xxxxxxxxxx and forwarded.
20 Q. That doesn't help us with any more detail than clothing
21 and trainers. Is that right?
22 A. There is no mention in my notebook, sir, of clothing or
23 trainers.
24 Q. If we look at what Mr Bridgett was searched for, have
25 you any recollection of that? That's the 6th May
2
1 search, Stacey Bridgett's premises.
2 A. I vaguely remember the search, but again, I don't recall
3 particularly the briefing or I don't recall anybody
4 particularly mentioning clothing.
5 Q. These weren't the first searches you had ever done,
6 I take it, the two we are talking about here?
7 A. Oh, no. At that stage, our unit would probably have
8 done about two searches a week at least.
9 Q. Help us how it went. If you were pulled in for search
10 duty and you were briefed by a detective about what it
11 was you were looking for, what sort of detail would
12 ordinarily be given?
13 A. Normally the detective would say it's -- for example,
14 "A certain person lives at a certain address. We are
15 going to do a search in relation to an incident, be it
16 armed robbery, stolen cigarettes, whatever, on
17 a warehouse on a certain date."
18 Normally you would be given -- you are divided up
19 into your teams and sent to do the search. The
20 sergeant, perhaps the log keeper, may have been given
21 maybe a bit more in depth, but we would have been
22 detailed by the log keeper to go into a certain room
23 and, if there was anything then of note, we would have
24 called them.
25 Q. So I suppose a lot of searches would have been for
3
1 stolen property, would they?
2 A. At that time, it varied. It could have been stolen
3 property, terrorist-related, occasionally searches for
4 people, but probably a good half of it perhaps in
5 relation to stolen property.
6 Again, I am going off the top of my head here.
7 Q. Okay. If you were looking for clothing that might
8 forensically link a suspect with a crime, what sort of
9 degree of detail would you expect to be told about the
10 clothing? Would you have been told to look for things
11 with blood on, or for a particular colour of clothing or
12 what?
13 A. If that detail was available, yes, but again, as I say,
14 I don't recall particularly any detail from those two
15 searches.
16 Q. We know that when you searched with Constable Stewart
17 the Bridgett house on 6th May, that you picked up four
18 shirts, two pairs of trousers and a pair of shoes.
19 So it is reasonable to infer from that that you were
20 not specifically looking for a specific shirt or
21 specific pair of trousers?
22 A. It would appear from the log, sir, that would be the
23 case, yes.
24 Q. Yet, when we look at what happened with the Hanvey
25 search, you picked up one jacket, one pair of trousers
4
1 and one pair of trainers.
2 Can you explain why it is you went specifically for
3 one of each of those?
4 A. It wasn't actually picked up by myself, sir. It was
5 picked up by Constable Porter. Again, as I say,
6 I vaguely remember the search. I don't recall being
7 told what specific clothing to look for in the briefing
8 and, as I say, Constable Porter was the officer who
9 actually seized them.
10 Q. Sergeant Bingham was in charge of the team, I gather.
11 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.
12 Q. Mr Stewart was the log keeper. Is that right?
13 A. He was, yes.
14 Q. So you neither had the charge of it, nor the log. Is
15 that fair?
16 A. That's correct, sir.
17 Q. So do you recall picking up anything and being told,
18 "Don't worry about that. Put it back down"? Do you
19 have any recollection of it?
20 A. I really have very little recollection of the search at
21 all. I remember it due in particular to the short
22 notice I received of it. I was actually rung at home
23 after finishing the previous night at midnight, rung at
24 2.00 in the morning, and not getting back to sleep.
25 That's really -- that would be the main thing I remember
5
1 about it.
2 Q. The other thing the Panel is going to have to make
3 a decision about is the fact that only one bedroom was
4 searched here, no other rooms. Can you give us any
5 explanation for why that was?
6 A. Again, sir, I can't recollect, but I would suggest
7 normally in a case like that, certain searches for CID
8 they would have a warrant just to search one room if
9 they had information that what they were looking for,
10 stolen goods, whatever, would be in a particular area --
11 Q. We see -- I am so sorry. I didn't mean to speak over
12 you.
13 A. Again, going from that there, it would suggest it was
14 his room in particular that the interest was in, but
15 again, I really don't recall very much about it.
16 Q. I appreciate your memory of this is naturally not as
17 good as it would have been if this had been carried out
18 last week, but doing the best you can with your
19 experience of searches, help us with this.
20 You have a warrant which allows you to look for
21 clothing and trainers. It is not limited to one room.
22 I don't mean you personally, I mean the team.
23 You, as a team, go there. You search only one room,
24 despite having to walk through another bedroom to get to
25 that room, and you pick up very specific clothing.
6
1 Now, does that suggest to you that somebody
2 somewhere told someone in this search team, "What you
3 are looking for is a black padded jacket, blue jeans and
4 a pair of black and white Asics trainers. Do not,
5 under any circumstances, take anything else".
6 What do you say about that?
7 A. It is quite possible, but again, as I say, going by the
8 warrant, it says trainers and clothing.
9 Now, if his room was the only one searched, which,
10 if I recall from looking at the log, it was, normally in
11 a situation like that, when you have CID with you and
12 you are in a search team and you find something, you
13 stop and call your log keeper or your team leader or the
14 CID officer and ask them, "Is this of interest? Is this
15 what you want?"
16 Again, that's going from other searches.
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. But again, that's as much as I can say about that, I'm
19 afraid.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: I don't think I can usefully ask you anything
21 else. As I say, other people may have more questions
22 for you.
23 MR ADAIR: I have no questions.
24 Questions by MR McGRORY
25 MR McGRORY: Mr Andrews. Isn't that correct?
7
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. I represent the family of Robert Hamill. I just want to
3 ask you some questions about the extent of these
4 premises. Now, a map has been scanned on this morning.
5 If that could be brought up. An aerial photograph,
6 sorry.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Which premises?
8 MR McGRORY: The Hanvey premises.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Sorry, can we just take this off?
10 MR McCOMB: Mr Underwood has been good enough just to tell
11 me in the last few minutes that apparently an aerial
12 photograph has been obtained of some of my client's
13 property.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
15 MR McCOMB: We were given no indication that this was going
16 to be done, sir, but at first blush it seems to us,
17 without having the advantage of taking instructions
18 obviously, that this could be an intrusion certainly on
19 my client's privacy.
20 We are not quite certain what the relevance of
21 an aerial photograph of these premises may be and
22 certainly, as I say, no indication -- prior indication
23 has been given to us. This has not been produced by the
24 Inquiry but, as I understand it, by my friend
25 Mr McGrory. We were given -- clearly this must have
8
1 been taken some time ago for it to be prepared for this
2 morning, sir.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you should see the photograph and
4 there will be an opportunity, I am sure, for you to be
5 told why it is said to be relevant.
6 MR McCOMB: Yes, indeed, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we will resume and decide on the matter.
8 MR McCOMB: Thanks.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: So let us know when you are ready. I don't
10 suppose it will take too long.
11 (10.45 am)
12 (A short break)
13 (10.50 am)
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I think the position is that Mr McGrory
15 is content that nobody sees this map on the basis it
16 might identify where the Hanveys live. There is no
17 particular reason for that. There are other ways of
18 doing this by way of questioning, although, as you were
19 coming in, I think the idea was being floated perhaps
20 you should see it.
21 I would be against partial disclosure of anything
22 only to you and not to anybody else. Perhaps Mr McGrory
23 could clarify?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR McGRORY: In terms of the questions I have to ask this
9
1 witness, we can get over that this morning. I think we
2 will just have to perhaps have a bit more discussion
3 with Mr Hanvey's representatives about the extent to
4 which disclosure of the map, even on a partial basis,
5 might compromise their privacy or whatever.
6 I want to reserve my position on whether or not the
7 map is subsequently used as a reference to -- later in
8 the proceedings. So far as this witness is concerned,
9 I think we can proceed.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Presumably, the purpose of looking at the map
11 is to see what premises there were. Is that right?
12 MR McGRORY: We are pretty sure there are very substantial
13 outhouses to this property, very large cattle sheds,
14 which are clearly visible from this map, which was
15 obtained from the Public Records Office. This is
16 an issue which we feel needs to be bottomed out, but
17 I can understand that the notice has been very short and
18 that Mr Hanvey's representatives are entitled to give
19 a bit further consideration to whether or not the map is
20 used openly, but ...
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So the map is in the public domain already.
22 MR McGRORY: It is. It is from the Ordnance Survey
23 section of the Public Records Office.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume there can be no objection to the
25 officer seeing it, can there, to help him to follow the
10
1 questions?
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, obviously no harm done by showing the
3 officer something. The question is whether, in a public
4 Inquiry, one wants to have something shown to someone
5 which is then not made public. That is the question.
6 The point here, of course, about the public property
7 in the map or photograph is that what's in the public
8 domain does not disclose who lives there. We have
9 conscientiously taken all addresses out of all
10 materials. Without the Hanveys having the opportunity
11 to comment on this, it seems unlikely that one can make
12 a reasonable ruling on whether this material should come
13 out.
14 So far as the existence, size and proximity to the
15 house of outhouses or outbuildings are concerned, that
16 can be established by way of questioning, and, I think,
17 from what I gather between Mr McGrory and Mr McComb,
18 probably by way of agreement, if necessary.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Then we won't at the present consider
20 further the use of the map. If Mr McGrory runs into
21 difficulties in his questions being understood, that may
22 be a different matter.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Certainly.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be sensible -- I hesitate to suggest
25 this -- to give you another few minutes to see whether
11
1 agreement can be reached.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: A matter for my friends.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory and Mr McComb, would it be
4 sensible to give you just a few more minutes to see
5 whether agreement can be reached?
6 MR ADAIR: I don't know whether I can be of any help. This
7 is one of my witnesses obviously. If it would help,
8 I could go in and show him the photograph. That may not
9 accord with it being public. Then he could be asked,
10 "Does that accord with your recollection?" As
11 Willie Whitelaw said, "I am only trying to help".
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McComb obviously thinks you are being
13 helpful. He is in agreement. We will rise again,
14 I think, just for a few minutes, and with any luck it
15 can all be agreed.
16 (10.55 am)
17 (A short break)
18 (11.00 am)
19 MR UNDERWOOD: I think we can have the witness back now.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Good.
21 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.
22 Mr Andrews, you have been shown an aerial photograph
23 of, I suggest to you, the property that you searched,
24 which was the Hanvey household, just a few moments ago?
25 A. That's correct, sir. I was.
12
1 Q. Did you recognise the property in any shape or form?
2 A. I didn't recognise it, but from the very recollection of
3 seeing the search record, the house itself was long, and
4 possibly the long building in the middle, but again,
5 it's not a place I would know.
6 Q. In the photograph you were shown, there were very
7 substantial outhouses adjacent to the property.
8 A. That's correct, sir.
9 Q. Do you remember seeing them when you did the search?
10 A. To be honest, sir, I do not. I am sorry. I just don't
11 remember.
12 Q. Of course, from what you have told us already as
13 a searcher, you would have needed to have been told --
14 this is your evidence -- "Look, search everything, and
15 outhouses"?
16 A. You carry on searching until you are told to stop. You
17 are directed by team leader and log keeper, until such
18 times as you find or don't find what it is you are
19 looking for.
20 Q. But nobody said to you at the briefing or during the
21 course of the search, "Look, make sure you go outside
22 the confines of the dwelling. Have a look at cattle
23 sheds", anything of that kind?
24 A. I don't recall being told anything of that nature, sir,
25 no.
13
1 Q. Nobody -- you got sort of a briefing pack. Isn't that
2 right?
3 A. A briefing pack is normally handed to the sergeant and
4 log keeper. It wouldn't actually be given to myself as
5 a searcher.
6 Q. I think you have really already said this anyway. You
7 are normally directed as to what it is you are looking
8 for?
9 A. Yes. It would be on the warrant, yes.
10 Q. Sometimes descriptions of clothing?
11 A. Yes, if that information is available, yes.
12 Q. Somebody may say, "Look, we are looking for a particular
13 type of jacket here"?
14 A. A particular item of clothing. That is possible, yes.
15 Q. You have been given that instruction on previous
16 occasions?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Of course, in many situations you may have been tasked
19 to look for signs of evidence having been destroyed?
20 A. Quite possibly. In a briefing you could possibly have
21 been given that direction or instruction, but again, as
22 I say, I have no recollection of ever receiving any of
23 that information.
24 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
25 A. Sir.
14
1 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
2 Questions from MR O'CONNOR
3 MR O'CONNOR: Just one question.
4 Do you have a recollection of the briefing at all?
5 A. Very vaguely. It was held in the CID office in
6 Portadown station, but, as I say, my memory is not good
7 of it at all.
8 Q. So when questions are put to you along the lines of, "Do
9 you remember being told this?" and you say "No", or, "Do
10 you remember being told that?" and you say "No", it may
11 have been said or it may well not have been said?
12 A. That's correct. It may have been said or it may not
13 have been said. I just don't remember.
14 Q. Anything might have been told to you in that briefing,
15 but you just don't remember the briefing, apart from
16 where it took place?
17 A. That's correct. I don't recall the details.
18 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you remember who briefed you?
20 A. It would have been Detective Inspector Irwin, sir,
21 according to my notebook, would have been present. But
22 again, who actually -- he was in charge, but who
23 actually did the speaking, I don't recall.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you. Yes, Mr Adair.
25
15
1 Questions from MR ADAIR
2 MR ADAIR: Just a couple of matters, Constable Andrews.
3 Dealing with the first search you carried out on
4 6th May at the Stacey Bridgett house --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- can you tell us, was there one room searched or more
7 than one room searched in that search?
8 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was one room.
9 Q. Again, on 10th May then, dealing with the Hanvey search,
10 was there one room or more than one room searched?
11 A. Just the one room.
12 Q. Can you help us with this: in 1997, would it have been
13 usual or unusual, when you were looking for clothing
14 belonging to a suspect, to search one room?
15 A. No, it wouldn't have been unusual. As I said, if the
16 information perhaps was of a certain individual or
17 a certain property, you would have went to one
18 particular place, be it one room, a garage, whatever.
19 Q. Are you still involved in searches?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. How long after 1997 were you involved in carrying out
22 searches?
23 A. Up until 1999. I left the Mobile Support Unit.
24 Q. If you can't help us with this, just say so. Can you
25 say whether or not in the years that have gone on since
16
1 1997 more items in general are taken than used to be in
2 taken in 1997, or is it the same, or if you can't help
3 us, say so.
4 A. I honestly -- I wouldn't know sir. I am not involved in
5 searches anymore.
6 MR ADAIR: Thanks very much.
7 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I recap on something you said to one of
9 my learned friends? It is this: if you were one of the
10 searchers, that is you were not a log keeper, you were
11 not the team leader, you kept on searching until
12 somebody told you to stop. Is that right?
13 A. That was normally the case, yes.
14 Q. Can I just then, for the sake of completeness, show you
15 your notebook so that we get you to identify it by
16 page number? It is at page [72890]. Is that your
17 notebook for 6th and 10th May 1997?
18 A. Yes, that is, sir, yes.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Good. Thank you very much indeed, unless
20 there is anything else arising.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Unless there is some particular entry we
22 ought to look at, in which case we may need it to be
23 deciphered for us. That's not meant to be offensive to
24 you, but we can't always read each other's writing.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Of course. Your evidence was, Mr Andrews,
17
1 there was no reference in here to the search of
2 10th May?
3 A. 10th May, it would be the very bottom there, Saturday
4 the 10th. It would be on the following page.
5 Q. Let's go over to page [72891] then. Can we just
6 highlight the first half of it?
7 At 7.27 is there an entry there?
8 A. There is.
9 Q. Perhaps you can help us with that what is?
10 A. "0727. Entry to house. Commenced search of
11 Allister Hanvey's bedroom.
12 "0740 terminated search of bedroom."
13 Q. The next entry has something to do with --
14 A. "Resumed mobile patrol duty to JN."
15 "JN" stands for Banbridge
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I have nothing else to ask about.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I suspect there would not be a lot of reason
18 to record a lot of detail because there is a log kept.
19 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Stewart, please.
24 MR WILLIAM ALEXANDER STEWART (sworn)
25
18
1 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Stewart.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
5 I have some questions for you. At the end of it, other
6 people may have some supplemental ones.
7 Can I ask your full names, first of all?
8 A. It is William Alexander Stewart.
9 Q. Thank you very much. If we could look at
10 page 81654 -- no. I am sorry. We are having trouble
11 with allocating your statement, I think, to a number at
12 the moment.
13 I think you signed a witness statement on
14 30th January this year. Is that right?
15 A. That's correct, yes.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I am sorry, sir. I am going to have to ask
17 you to rise. We are obviously having technical
18 difficulties with why it won't come up.
19 (11.15 am)
20 (A short break)
21 (11.40 am)
22 MR UNDERWOOD: I do apologise for that to everybody.
23 I think we can have the statement of Mr Stewart up on
24 screen now. Perhaps we could have Mr Stewart back.
25 (Witness returned to hearing room)
19
1 MR UNDERWOOD: I am sorry about that, Mr Stewart.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. There was a period where you were given a cipher of P34.
4 Perhaps we can have a look at the document which says it
5 is the statement of P34 and flick through the five
6 pages or so of it to see whether it is your statement,
7 in fact.
8 Is that your statement?
9 A. Yes, that's it.
10 Q. Is it true?
11 A. It is, yes.
12 Q. If we look at the warrant for the search of the Hanvey
13 house for 10th May, we can find it at page [51350] -- we
14 see that it responds to an application or an affirmation
15 of Dereck Bradley. What it specifies is that:
16 "... there is reasonable cause to believe that
17 certain articles namely, trainers and clothing sought
18 in connection with the offence of murder are on the
19 premises of Allister Hanvey."
20 It gives the address. Would you have had that
21 warrant in your pack?
22 A. Yes, it would have been in the pack with the search
23 record, yes.
24 Q. If we look at your notebook entry, which we find at
25 page [51349] -- that's the typed version, of course --
20
1 we see at 0700 you record:
2 "Briefing at JD CID by Detective Inspector Irwin
3 re search to be carried out at [blanked out address] home
4 of Allister Hanvey, ref murder of Robert Hamill on
5 27/4/97. Search for clothing and trainers under
6 Art 10 of PACE. Detailed log keeper.
7 Sergeant Bingham in charge."
8 Doing the best you can with the warrant and your
9 notebook here, can you recall how specific the briefing
10 was in relation to what you were looking for?
11 A. Truthfully, what I have in the notebook there and what's
12 in front of me is what I can remember, you know, to
13 search for clothing and trainers. That's as much as
14 I can remember about it.
15 Q. We know that Mr Hanvey was a suspect in the murder of
16 Mr Hamill and that a purpose of this search was to find
17 clothing that might forensically link him with the --
18 scientifically link him, I should say, with Mr Hamill.
19 Can you help us about what degree of detail you
20 would put in your notebook compared with the amount of
21 detail you were given in general about a search?
22 A. If there was specifics in relation to particular items,
23 that normally would be put into your notebook. Again,
24 it would be recorded in the search log as well.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this particular items to be looked for or
21
1 particular items that were found?
2 A. Particular items to be looked for. You know, if they
3 were specifically looking for black Nike trainers, that
4 would be recorded in your notebook. I use that as
5 an example.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Never mind your memory, it is reasonable to
7 infer this, is it: if you had been briefed to look for
8 something more specific than just generally clothes or
9 trainers, that would have found its way into your
10 notebook?
11 A. Yes, that would be fair.
12 Q. We have just heard from Mr Andrews and one of the things
13 he said was that if you were one of the searchers who
14 was not a log keeper, not in charge of the search,
15 basically your task would be to carry on searching,
16 bringing things to the attention of those in charge of
17 the search until somebody told you to stop.
18 A. That's correct, yes.
19 Q. We know that three items were seized at Mr Hanvey's
20 premises as a result of searching only one room and the
21 search stopped.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us who decided it would stop?
24 A. I can't honestly remember in relation to that particular
25 search. I couldn't say for definite whether it would be
22
1 the team leader or indeed ...
2 Q. Sergeant Bingham was the team leader, I take it?
3 A. That's correct, yes.
4 Q. There was a detective accompanying for the purposes of
5 arresting Mr Hamill, I think.
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. Would you have expected in the ordinary course the
8 detective to play any role in directing the search?
9 A. Not in directing the search as such, but certainly, when
10 items would be found or, you know, if you were doing
11 a particular search of a room and you found
12 an item or -- between the team leader and, indeed, a CID
13 officer, if a CID officer was there, they would be
14 liaised with, "Is this relevant? Do you want us to
15 seize this? Do you not want us to seize that?"
16 There would always be some form of interaction
17 between all parties that were there.
18 Q. But we need to direct ourselves, do we, to
19 Dr Sergeant Bingham to find out why the search stopped
20 when it did? Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We know that you and Mr Andrews had conducted a search
23 together four days before this on Mr Bridgett's
24 premises.
25 A. That's correct, yes.
23
1 Q. There you didn't stop searching until you had recovered
2 four shirts, two pairs of trousers and a pair of shoes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are we to take it that the reason there is a disparity
5 between the number of things seized in those searches is
6 that the point at which you were told to stop was
7 different?
8 A. Yes. That would be fair.
9 Q. As simple as that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Had you very much experience of searching before you did
12 these two searches?
13 A. Quite a bit, yes.
14 Q. Can you give us any help on how common it was for you to
15 be looking for clothing to connect somebody with a crime
16 and only leave with three items?
17 A. Every search is different, you know. At that particular
18 time, I had been in the MSU four years. The number of
19 searches we had done in that period of time, I couldn't
20 even put an estimate on how many it would be.
21 We go and we do the search. We look for what we
22 have been briefed to look for. As I say, everything is
23 so different. In some searches, you could see in
24 essence a bootful of stuff; in others, you may come away
25 with absolutely nothing. It just depends.
24
1 Q. If we look at the diagram you drew in part of the search
2 log at page [74000] -- perhaps we could rotate this.
3 Thank you. Bedroom 1 is on the very far right. I think
4 you helpfully say in your statement you need to get
5 through at least bedroom 2 to get to it.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you recall, did you just start at one end of the
8 house with the proposal of working your way through?
9 A. My recollection of it is that we did just search one
10 room. There are times, again, depending on the
11 circumstances of the search, that you will not search
12 the whole house, you know.
13 The truth of it is this -- the sketch that's there
14 is really the only real recollection that I would have
15 had in relation to the searches that we completed to do
16 with the Robert Hamill murder, in that I remember doing
17 a search where you had to go from one room to another
18 room to another room, in essence, to get to where we did
19 the search.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much, Mr Stewart.
21 Other people may have some more questions, as I say.
22 Questions from MR WOLFE
23 MR WOLFE: Just one issue. Mr Stewart, I ask questions on
24 behalf of the PSNI.
25 Now, is one of the factors at least that influences
25
1 whether an item is seized during a search the relevance
2 of the item? Let me rephrase that perhaps. You are
3 carrying out a search. You are perhaps in a bedroom.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You come across an item. You have talked about
6 interaction between the search team and perhaps CID.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You pick up an item which you might ask the leader of
9 the team or CID whether they think it is relevant.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, my learned friend asked you about the number of
12 items lifted from the Stacey Bridgett household by
13 comparison with the Hanvey household.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. It was suggested to you that the reason for more
16 material lifted from the Bridgett household by
17 comparison with the Hanvey household related to the
18 length of time of the search; in other words, when you
19 were told to stop.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Do you agree with that?
22 A. Well, the length of time of the search in essence is
23 relevant to the size of the room, the number of items
24 that you have to go through. You know, if you have --
25 in one room, if you had a room that in essence was full
26
1 of wardrobes or there was a lot more physical searching
2 to be done, that obviously will make the search more
3 protracted, you know.
4 Q. You may not have an independent memory of these searches
5 and, if so, just tell me, but could it have been the
6 case that you lifted more from the Bridgett household
7 because there was more material which was considered to
8 be relevant in that household by comparison with the
9 Hanvey?
10 A. As you have said there, I couldn't give you an answer to
11 that, because I don't have that recollection. You know,
12 it's just not there.
13 Q. Let me just clear this up, because it sort of derives
14 from the answer you gave to my learned friend.
15 The suggestion from your answer to my learned friend
16 was that you lifted more from the Bridgett household
17 because you had longer to search, a longer time to
18 search
19 MR UNDERWOOD: To be fair, that was not the way I was
20 putting it. It was that they stopped searching when
21 they were told to stop and they were simply not told to
22 stop until they had picked up more at the Bridgett
23 household.
24 MR WOLFE: Well, let me approach it in this way.
25 You have told us that you have no independent memory
27
1 of these searches. Is that fair?
2 A. That's fair, yes.
3 MR WOLFE: Perhaps I can leave it at that.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
5 Questions from MR McGRORY
6 MR McGRORY: A couple of minor matters. Mr Stewart, I want
7 to ask you some questions on behalf of the family of
8 Robert Hamill.
9 Would you have a look at document [51342]? My
10 document is not redacted. There are a list of people
11 there about the middle of the page, the top half of the
12 page --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- who were present at the time the search was carried
15 out.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: This is of the Hanvey house?
17 MR McGRORY: Of the Hanvey house. This is the document
18 record print of the search, of the log.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, this document would disclose to me, because I have
21 got all the names, that, in fact, there were three
22 younger brothers of Allister Hanvey's present at the
23 time. Is that your recollection?
24 A. The names that would be on the search log are the names
25 of the people who would be in the house at that time.
28
1 Q. Do you remember there being other boys in the house?
2 A. There were other persons there, but again, I couldn't
3 tell you whether male, female or, indeed, what ages they
4 would have been. I have no ...
5 Q. I am going to suggest to you, in fact, there would have
6 been a brother who was about 16 years of age and another
7 of about 15, and then another, younger again, living in
8 the house at that time.
9 Can you help us with that?
10 A. I can't, no. I have no recollection of that.
11 Q. And that they were present at the time the search was
12 carried out.
13 But in a situation like that, as a searcher, when
14 you are looking for clothes, and there may be, for
15 example, a number of teenage boys in a household, what
16 steps would you take to distinguish between one boy's
17 clothes and another boy's clothes?
18 A. When you would enter the house, in essence there is
19 a process we would go through of speaking to the
20 householder and establishing who is in the house. Hence
21 the reason the names and details are recorded on the
22 log.
23 Between the team leader and indeed the scribe
24 speaking to the occupants of the house, that's how you
25 would identify in essence, you know, which room would
29
1 belong to who.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I suppose then from that it is the relevance of where
4 you search.
5 Q. So you obviously then depended upon the occupants of the
6 house to identify which room was which boy's?
7 A. That would be the norm. Again, in this specific -- you
8 know, in this specific search, I can't say that's
9 exactly how -- but that would be the norm, yes.
10 Q. Can you look, please, at page [09292]? Now, this is the
11 statement of Michael John Porter, who is a colleague of
12 yours, who was also on the search.
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes. Michael was one of the searchers.
16 Q. Now, about a third of the way -- the second half of that
17 statement, if it could be highlighted, that would be
18 helpful. He is the chap who actually seized the
19 clothes.
20 "I subsequently seized a pair of dark blue jeans
21 which I bagged and labelled ..."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "... a pair of white and black trainers which were
25 marked ... and a black padded jacket ... Mr Hanvey
30
1 identified these items as his own."
2 I know this is Mr Porter's statement, but he seems
3 to have relied on the suspect Allister Hanvey
4 identifying the clothes that belonged to him.
5 Can you remember that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would that have been the practice?
8 A. The question probably -- you know, in the norm, the
9 question would be asked, "Are these yours? Are they not
10 yours?" because rather than going into a room and taking
11 everything that's in there, you will ask the question.
12 You have to rely on the truth being told.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Suppose he says, "It is not mine", what do
14 you do then?
15 A. If the particular item was similar to that, you know,
16 that you were actually searching for, you still would
17 take it. You would still take it anyway.
18 MR McGRORY: You see, with three teenage boys in a house
19 there must have been quite a few pairs of trainers and
20 pairs of jeans and jackets and so forth in the house.
21 A. I can't recall, but I think it would be fair to say,
22 yes.
23 Q. There may be times when the search briefing requires you
24 to be indiscriminate about the number of items that you
25 take. It would just be, "Take all trainers and shoes"?
31
1 A. That would be correct, yes.
2 Q. Obviously that was not the instruction on this occasion?
3 A. Not that I can recall, no.
4 Q. I have just one final issue for the sake of
5 completeness. You were shown an aerial photograph
6 earlier.
7 A. That's correct, yes.
8 Q. That aerial photograph I suggest showed you the Hanvey
9 household.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then, adjacent to it, quite a large outhouse section?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember seeing those outhouses?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember going anywhere near them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember getting any instruction about them?
18 A. No.
19 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
20 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
21 MR McCOMB: No questions.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr O'Connor?
23 Questions from MR O'CONNOR
24 MR O'CONNOR: Mr Stewart, I just wanted to ask you about
25 a reasonable inference that you were asked about by
32
1 Mr Underwood.
2 It says in your notebook that you were tasked to
3 look for clothes and trainers.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It seems from the evidence you have given that you were
6 looking for Allister Hanvey's clothes and trainers. Is
7 that right?
8 A. Do you mean we were specifically briefed to look for
9 Allister Hanvey's clothes and trainers?
10 Q. Yes. It seems that -- you lifted three items. Is that
11 right?
12 A. In?
13 Q. In that search?
14 A. I didn't lift any. I was the log keeper.
15 Q. There were three items taken?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were those items belonging to Allister Hanvey,
18 supposedly?
19 A. That seems to be right, yes.
20 Q. Is it a reasonable inference to draw from those facts
21 that you were looking for Allister Hanvey's clothing?
22 A. Yes, I think that's ...
23 Q. So if you are looking for Allister Hanvey's clothing, is
24 it then a reasonable inference, simply because it says
25 "clothes and trainers" in your notebook, that somebody
33
1 has just told you, "Go out and look for clothes and
2 trainers"? Do you follow me? No?
3 A. No, I don't, to be honest.
4 Q. You agreed with Mr Underwood that because it simply says
5 "clothes and trainers" in your notebook --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "Never mind your memory" was the way it was put to you.
8 It doesn't matter about your memory. Is it a reasonable
9 inference, because it says "clothes and trainers" in
10 your notebook, that that's all you were told at
11 a briefing? Is that reasonable?
12 A. I believe so, yes.
13 Q. Well, did you take all the clothes and all the trainers
14 out of the house then?
15 A. No, obviously, if there were only three items.
16 Q. If you are just told to go and look for clothes and
17 trainers, because that's what it says in your notebook,
18 why didn't you just take all the clothes and trainers
19 out of the house?
20 A. That's where it comes down to speaking to the team
21 leader and indeed liaising with the CID officers. They
22 are asked what you take and what you don't take.
23 Q. The CID officer on the scene, who has been briefed by
24 Mr Irwin in this case, for example?
25 A. Yes, yes.
34
1 Q. So someone has told you more specifically what to look
2 for. Is that right?
3 A. Not necessarily told me more specifically what to look
4 for.
5 Q. But there is no doubt someone in the chain has been told
6 more specifically what to look for?
7 A. Well, I can't say whether they were or not, but I think
8 it's a fair inference or fair to assume that, yes.
9 Q. I will put it another way. Because it says "clothes and
10 trainers" in your notebook, it doesn't mean that you
11 were simply wandering around Hanvey's house looking for
12 any clothes and any trainers. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, that would be correct.
14 Q. It doesn't mean that?
15 A. The search -- whenever you are briefed and you get that
16 briefing to go out and do a search, you will be told,
17 "We are going out to do a search for clothing and
18 trainers".
19 As the person who actually physically does the
20 search, or indeed is the log keeper in the search, you
21 won't necessarily be told, "We are looking for
22 a particular person's trainers". Someone else may have
23 that information, you know, the specifics that you would
24 be looking for.
25 Q. But you would be given those specifics prior to the
35
1 search or during the time of going to the search or
2 before you started your search?
3 A. Not necessarily, no. If we were given those specifics,
4 it would be in the notebook and, indeed, on the search
5 log.
6 Q. So do you have a memory then of looking for all clothes
7 and all trainers in Hanvey's house?
8 A. I don't have a memory of the search other than just
9 going from room to room to room. That's the only memory
10 of the search that I have.
11 Q. Then the way it would have been done in those days was,
12 if you were told to look for clothes and trainers, do
13 you then bring all clothes and trainers to someone to
14 make a decision whether those are the clothes and
15 trainers that are being looked for?
16 A. Yes. That would be ...
17 Q. It is the person -- you report to the log keeper
18 potentially or you report to the CID man on the scene?
19 A. Either the CID person or indeed the team leader.
20 Q. Because they are the people who would know which ones
21 specifically were being looked for?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
24 MR ADAIR: I have no questions.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: I have nothing arising. Thank you. Thank
36
1 you very much.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 MR UNDERWOOD: I know there is a need to rise early for
5 lunch, but I think we can probably deal with Mr Wright,
6 who is next, in half an hour or less.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Yes.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Wright, please. I sound like a romantic
9 novelist: we are going to have to wait for Mr Wright.
10 I am afraid he is not slated until this afternoon.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: "Slating" seems to be perhaps a rather
12 appropriate word. Who can we have?
13 MR UNDERWOOD: We can't have anybody, I am afraid. I am
14 sorry. We just got through this morning's witnesses
15 faster than was anticipated. I don't know what's
16 a convenient time for you to resume.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: 2 o'clock.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: So be it.
19 (12.05 pm)
20 (The luncheon adjournment)
21 (2.00 pm)
22 MR UNDERWOOD: I am going to call Mr Bradley next.
23 MR DERECK MATTHEW BRADLEY (sworn)
24 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Bradley.
37
1 A. Afternoon.
2 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
3 I have some questions for you to start with, and then
4 others may have some follow-ups.
5 What's your full name, please?
6 A. Dereck Matthew Bradley.
7 Q. Can we have a look on the screen at page [81508]?
8 I wonder if you would keep your eyes on this while we
9 flick through the 11 pages of this document.
10 Is that your witness statement?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. There is one matter I want to take you to. In fact, it
13 is on this page, paragraph 44. You say:
14 "I also took a statement from Jason McClure on
15 26 June 1997."
16 This document says it is produced and shown to you
17 containing pages 695 to 696. Can I take you to some
18 different pages to see whether they cover it? It is
19 page [09165].
20 Is that the statement you are talking about?
21 A. Yes, I remember that, yes.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Save for that, is your witness
23 statement true and accurate?
24 A. There's a few mistakes in it, but ...
25 Q. Is there anything you want to take me through at the
38
1 moment?
2 A. There is one issue. I think it is about the warrants or
3 something. It says "letters". I don't know what that
4 means, but it is minor.
5 Q. If we come to it, we will put it right when it emerges.
6 Can I take you to the second page of the statement
7 to start with? It is page [81509]. In paragraph 5 you
8 deal with your arrival on the Monday morning, that will
9 be 28th April 1997.
10 Do you know who it is we are calling P39?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say:
13 "When I arrived into the station on Monday morning,
14 Detective Chief Inspector P39 instructed me to read the
15 statements that had been made by the uniformed officers
16 and brief myself on what had happened. In particular,
17 she asked me to go through the statements of the
18 Land Rover crew. I read them with a view to seeing if
19 they could give any further information. I do not
20 remember a lot about the investigation after all these
21 years, but I made a statement on 13 November 2001."
22 You identify it and give the page numbers there. At
23 the end of it, you say it is accurate. In your final
24 sentence in this paragraph you tell us:
25 "... therefore, I am drawing on my previous
39
1 statement, not on my independent recollection."
2 It is probably a silly question, but have you
3 recovered your independent recollection since you wrote
4 this?
5 A. I can recall some things better than when I made that,
6 you know.
7 Q. Can I ask you about this first stage of you being
8 involved with this investigation then on the 28th?
9 We know that the Land Rover crew had been recalled
10 to duty. They had made some statements or had already
11 started to make a statement in the case of one of them
12 and made statements in the case of others, and that
13 other personnel who had been at the scene had made
14 statements.
15 We also know that the duty sergeant and the duty
16 inspector had been at the scene, had seen quite a lot,
17 but hadn't made statements.
18 Now, were you made aware that they hadn't made
19 statements but that they were able to make them?
20 A. Was I made aware that ...?
21 Q. That they had not made statements but were capable of
22 making statements.
23 A. Well, the statements that had been prepared by the
24 officers on the ground were in a lever arch folder and
25 those are the statements that P39 referred me to and
40
1 those are the ones I read.
2 Q. You see, what we are trying to do is put together
3 a picture of who knew what.
4 What I am interested in you helping the Panel about
5 is whether anybody knew that the sergeant and the
6 inspector had been at the scene, had got information
7 which they should have been putting in statements, but
8 hadn't made statements. Can you help us?
9 A. Well, on the Monday morning at or about 9 o'clock there
10 was an office meeting. P39 and the DI were present.
11 They conducted that meeting. All CID officers present
12 that morning were made aware of what happened over the
13 weekend. We were all given certain tasks. I was given
14 the task of reading through the statements.
15 Until I opened that folder, I was not aware who the
16 duty inspector was or who the duty sergeant was or
17 whether they had made statements or not.
18 Q. Let's just try to work this out by inference. Doing the
19 best you can now with the sort of way you approached
20 your work in 1997, if at that 9 o'clock meeting you had
21 been told that among the uniformed officers at the scene
22 had been the duty sergeant and the duty inspector and
23 then you had opened the file and found no statements
24 from them, would you have done something about that?
25 A. That morning, no.
41
1 Q. At any point?
2 A. Oh, yes. Later on that day, or it was the next day, we
3 set up the MIRIAM system. By operating that system,
4 anyone who had not made a statement, action would be
5 raised to have statements obtained from them. I am sure
6 that was done.
7 Q. We haven't been able to find that. Can you help us with
8 physically how that worked?
9 We know what a MIRIAM system is. Can you tell us
10 how it worked in this particular case?
11 A. Well, on the Tuesday morning, the DI came back from
12 Banbridge. He had been over there on another enquiry.
13 Him and I sat down and the action sheets, which is part
14 of the MIRIAM system, we started raising them that
15 morning. In fact, I think the DI raised the actions,
16 not myself.
17 Q. So we would expect to find a file, would we, with
18 actions and the usual MIRIAM paraphernalia in?
19 A. I would have thought so, yes.
20 Q. Just to make sure I get this accurately, you would have
21 expected the absence of statements from people who were
22 known to have been there to be picked up by way of
23 an action, would you?
24 A. Certainly.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: What happens? Do you put into MIRIAM the
42
1 names of the people who were believed to be at the
2 scene?
3 A. Right. By reading through, say, my statement, if I was
4 one of the officers on the ground, I mention ten names.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
6 A. Well, the MIRIAM system worked very well, but you would
7 just note down the ten names, then, as you went through
8 the statements in the folder, you would see who is
9 missing. Then it is a matter of raising actions from
10 that.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, you would have put in the
12 names of the duty sergeant and duty inspector and then
13 it would have been disclosed from MIRIAM there was no
14 statement from them yet?
15 A. If they had been mentioned in the statements of other
16 people, that would have been raised, yes.
17 Now, it may not have been done on the Tuesday, but
18 certainly over the next few days that would have been
19 done.
20 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: If they had been in the
21 briefing or had been taking the briefing, would you
22 still expect a statement to have been made?
23 A. The briefing?
24 MR UNDERWOOD: The debriefing.
25 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: You talked about having
43
1 the briefing that morning.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: The debriefing.
3 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Yes, debriefing.
4 A. This is the CID briefing I am talking about on the
5 Monday morning.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: What her Ladyship is asking about, I think,
7 is the debriefing that one would expect from a uniformed
8 sergeant or inspector of the uniformed officers who had
9 been at the scene.
10 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: What I was referring to
11 was you said there was a meeting on the following
12 morning with everybody present.
13 A. Monday morning. That was with the CID officers. CID
14 officers, not uniform.
15 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: So it wouldn't have been
16 uniform. Sorry. My mistake.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: My fault.
18 Now, you tell us in this paragraph 5 that you were
19 asked to look at those to brief yourself and then you go
20 on in the second sentence to say:
21 "In particular, she", that's the Detective Chief
22 Inspector, "asked me to go through the statements of the
23 Land Rover crew."
24 You say:
25 "I read them with a view to seeing if they could
44
1 give any further information."
2 Two things about that. Firstly, was it just the
3 Land Rover crew she asked you to focus on?
4 A. No, all the statements that were contained in the lever
5 arch file.
6 Q. Right. Then when you say:
7 "She asked me to go through [them]. I read them
8 with a view to seeing if they could give any further
9 information."
10 Do you mean to see whether, in your view, the
11 officers themselves could give further information, or
12 are you there referring to the statements giving you
13 further information?
14 A. Until I read those statements, I had little or no
15 knowledge of the incident.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. I read through the statements and my intention was to
18 speak to the officers later on and hopefully they could
19 have provided additional names.
20 Q. Again, we are trying to compile a picture here. We know
21 that you went through the four Land Rover crew
22 statements with them later on and took notes.
23 As far as we can tell, nobody went through the
24 statements of other officers with the people who made
25 the statements.
45
1 Can you help us with that? Did you go through with
2 anybody else statements that they had made?
3 A. No. I read through the statements but I was not asked
4 to do that and I did not do it.
5 Q. What made you talk to the Land Rover crew?
6 A. I was specifically asked by P39 to do that.
7 Q. Are you conscious of anybody talking to any other
8 witness, police witness that is, to do the same task?
9 A. Am I aware of it?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I am not aware at this stage what any other CID officer
12 was asked to do.
13 Q. Did you attend other conferences apart from that
14 9 o'clock one on that day? If you can't remember, say
15 so.
16 A. I can't honestly recall.
17 Q. Would you have expected the MIRIAM system to, as it
18 were, bring to life actions requiring somebody to go
19 through with every police witness their statement to see
20 if there was anything else they could say?
21 A. Sorry. Repeat that.
22 Q. Sorry. You did this task with the four Land Rover
23 officers. You sat them down, talked to them, went
24 through their statements, asked them if there was
25 anything else they could say. Yes?
46
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Would you expect the same task to be undertaken with all
3 the other officers at the scene?
4 A. I'm sure it was done by someone else.
5 Q. You would expect the MIRIAM system to cause that to
6 happen, would you?
7 A. Not -- the MIRIAM system doesn't come into that. It is
8 just a matter of reading through the statements, nothing
9 to do with MIRIAM.
10 Q. Just as a matter of course, as good detective work, you
11 would have expected somebody to go through with each of
12 the officers on the ground?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You say you refer there to your statement at page 17572.
15 Let us just have a look at that, if we can, [17572]. It
16 is one you made on, I think, 13th November 2001. I want
17 to ask you about --
18 A. I didn't make that statement on that date. It was
19 produced to me and I signed it probably on that date.
20 Q. Right. Are you happy with its contents?
21 A. Yes. The contents refer to an interview I had with
22 someone about a year before that, if I remember rightly.
23 Q. I just want to pick up the last four lines. You are
24 referring here to Monday, 28th April 1997 still:
25 "It was mentioned that these officers' actions were
47
1 under investigation", that's the officers in the
2 Land Rover?
3 A. I don't see this line.
4 Q. Four lines from the bottom.
5 A. Oh, from the bottom. Right.
6 Q. "It was mentioned that these officers' actions were
7 under investigation, but it was necessary to establish
8 if they could identify any of those involved in the
9 assault upon Robert Hamill."
10 Are you clear you thought on 28th April that there
11 was a question mark over these officers' actions?
12 A. As a result of P39 speaking to me, yes.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. If we go back to your statement for
14 us, page [81509], at the bottom, paragraph 8, you talk
15 there about what we have just been discussing:
16 "I was instructed to read all of the uniformed
17 officers' statements that had been present at the scene.
18 I was also instructed to speak to the crew present in
19 the Land Rover: Constable Neill, Reserve Constable P40,
20 Reserve Constable Cornett and Reserve
21 Constable Atkinson. I waited for all four officers to
22 assemble in Detective Inspector Irwin's office."
23 If we jump to paragraph 9, [81510] -- I will take
24 you to the bottom of paragraph 8 before we go to 9. You
25 say:
48
1 "DCI P39 was not present during this meeting.
2 Shortly after the officers had assembled, I commenced
3 going through the statements. I do not recall anything
4 that I specifically needed to address with each of the
5 witnesses apart from Reserve Constable Atkinson. He
6 said something about his statement not being complete so
7 I told him to go away and finish it. He provided his
8 statement some time later that day."
9 Was his statement, or partly finished statement, in
10 the file at all, do you recall?
11 A. I honestly can't say one way or the other. It may have
12 been. I just don't know.
13 Q. Have you any idea how much he needed to add to it or how
14 much he did, in fact, add to it?
15 A. I think three, four, five lines. Thinking back, it must
16 have been in the folder, because I can recall that there
17 was only an extra few lines -- the next time I saw it,
18 it had an extra few lines added to it, so ...
19 Q. Then, if we go to page [81513], you are dealing on this
20 page with events later in May of 1997. I want to ask
21 you about something that's not on this page. It is an
22 interview you had with Allister Hanvey on 7th May.
23 We can see you administered a QPF to him. Do you
24 remember that?
25 A. Yes, yes.
49
1 Q. We see that, I think, at page [08132]. We can flick
2 through the page, if you like. That's the last page.
3 You can see it is recorded that the completing officer
4 is you.
5 As far as we can work out, the reason why Mr Hanvey
6 would have been somebody whose name got thrown up for
7 a questionnaire was that one of the officers on the
8 scene identified him as being present. That's
9 Mr Warnock. Can you help about why it was that a QPF
10 was required from him?
11 A. A QPF was completed for everyone we spoke to.
12 Q. Sorry, I should have started a stage earlier. As far as
13 we can work out, the only reason he was spoken to was he
14 was identified as being at the scene by Mr Warnock.
15 Can you help on that?
16 A. I'd probably agree with you.
17 Q. That's the sort of thing that would have been the
18 subject of an action presumably?
19 A. I honestly can't recall whether there was an action
20 raised or not, but I presume there was one.
21 Q. Again, if you can help us with this, fine; if you can't,
22 tell us.
23 We know from reading Mr Warnock's statement that he
24 saw Mr Hanvey at the scene and he set out in his
25 statement what it is he thought Mr Hanvey was wearing,
50
1 which is that it was a jacket with grey sleeves.
2 When you did the interview with Mr Hanvey, would you
3 have been aware of what it was that had led you to be
4 questioning him?
5 A. In relation to Mr Hanvey, my recollection is that the
6 night before that statement was recorded, I visited his
7 house along with another detective. Hanvey was not at
8 home. We spoke to his father. We got abuse from the
9 father and we made arrangements for the son to come to
10 Portadown station the following day or -- and that's
11 what happened.
12 Q. What I am trying to do is reconstruct, in the absence of
13 the file, the way in which you would have approached
14 an interview of somebody.
15 Assume for the moment that the reason why you were
16 asked to interview Mr Hanvey at all was that Mr Warnock
17 had seen him at the scene and that Mr Warnock had put
18 that in a statement, would you have gone to the
19 interview armed with that information?
20 A. I can't recall at this stage now, but if the statement
21 had been made prior to it, I certainly would have read
22 it. I cannot recall.
23 Q. I am not asking you to recall it. I am just asking you
24 about what happened as a matter of practice.
25 Assume there is a statement dated 27th April in
51
1 which Mr Warnock says, "I was at the scene. I saw
2 Allister Hanvey. He was wearing a particular jacket",
3 would that have been part of your briefing for yourself
4 for this interview?
5 A. I would have read it on the Monday. I am not sure what
6 date this was.
7 Q. Okay. Then you also, on 7th May, took a statement from
8 Mr Hanvey. We see that --
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. -- at [09190], I think. Again, we have seen quite a few
11 QPFs. We have seen quite a few statements.
12 Can you help us with what would have made you decide
13 to take a statement from somebody whom you have just
14 given a questionnaire to?
15 A. Sorry, I don't follow. What are you saying?
16 Q. You interview Mr Hanvey. You administer a questionnaire
17 to him --
18 A. Right.
19 Q. -- which we have just seen. You then take a statement
20 from him. Yes? Both on the same day.
21 A. They were all done at the same time. I can't say what
22 order they were done in.
23 Q. Why do we have both is what I am asking you. Why do we
24 have a statement and a questionnaire?
25 A. The DI had directed that this -- you call it a QPF,
52
1 would be used, everyone I spoke to, to try to build up a
2 list of what each person had done and as many people as
3 possible, names, who they were with, and one thing and
4 another, to enable us to conduct the inquiry.
5 Q. In some cases, if you were told to administer this
6 questionnaire and found that people had nothing
7 particular to say, would you have left it at that, no
8 statement from them?
9 A. Yes, I would say there was occasions, if it turned out
10 that this person wasn't in the town centre, there was no
11 point taking a statement off him.
12 Q. Right. I want to move on to the search of Hanvey's
13 house on 10th May 1997. I am not suggesting you were
14 present. If we look at page [81513], what you did do
15 was get the search warrants. At paragraph 22 you tell
16 us:
17 "That night, or possibly the early hours of the
18 Saturday 10th May, DCI P39 asked me to stay on late.
19 She told me to get the search pro formas prepared and
20 the search warrants. I was also asked to arrange
21 manpower for the searches. I cannot now recall the fine
22 detail."
23 If we jump down to paragraph 24, you say:
24 "I think it was in the early hours of the morning",
25 that's the 10th, "when we got the warrants because I had
53
1 a Justice of the Peace on standby for quite a while and
2 at 0200 in the morning he signed the forms."
3 Now, we can see the way the forms worked and the way
4 the warrants went. Can we have a look at one of these?
5 Page [73985]. If we expand the part under the second
6 line, standard form. It says:
7 "I have reasonable grounds to believe:
8 "(a) that a serious arrestable offence has been
9 committed, namely ..."
10 Somebody has filled in "murder".
11 A. That's my writing.
12 Q. "(b) that there is material:
13 "Which is likely to be of substantial value (whether
14 by itself or together with other material) to the
15 investigation of the offence and
16 "(c) the material specified is on the premises of
17 Allister Hanvey situated at ..."
18 Then the address has been blacked out.
19 This is absolutely standard form for a search
20 warrant application for this sort of material?
21 A. Can you just put it back to the beginning again?
22 Q. Yes, of course.
23 A. Yes, it is a standard form that was in use at that time.
24 Q. Then, when we look at the warrant itself, and we have
25 a HOLMES version at [51350], we see under the second
54
1 line:
2 "Whereas it appears from the application on
3 Affirmation of Dereck Bradley, a Constable of the Royal
4 Ulster Constabulary of Portadown, that there is
5 reasonable cause to believe that certain articles
6 namely, trainers and clothing sought in connection with
7 the offence of murder are on the premises of
8 Allister Hanvey situated at [blank]."
9 Then it goes on to give the warrant.
10 So what we have is a standard form which does not
11 specify trainers and clothing and a warrant which
12 does --
13 A. Can I see a standard form?
14 Q. Please. [73985] --
15 A. No, the standard of this one here.
16 Q. That is the same one, yes.
17 A. Of?
18 Q. Hanvey. You have just seen the standard form that led
19 to this.
20 A. Is that the same form?
21 Q. Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: It was the previous document.
23 A. The previous document? Right. Sorry.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: The reason I am putting this to you is to ask
25 you what happens between filling in the standard form
55
1 and the warrant being given.
2 Did you actually have to give evidence?
3 A. Yes. Well, there were several searches around that
4 night. They were all done collectively. I was briefed
5 by DI -- P39, is it?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. As a result of what she told me, I completed a number of
8 warrants, just standard forms. That's my handwriting
9 you see on that last copy we saw. I then went down and
10 saw the JP. I can't remember his name off the top of
11 his head.
12 Q. It is Mr xxxxxxxxxx, according to this.
13 A. Mr xxxxxxxxxx. That's correct. I had spoken to him
14 several times on the phone during the previous two or
15 three hours. I went down. He always kept a bible in
16 the living room. Took the oath. We had a general chat.
17 He knew about the inquiry. We went through the warrants
18 and he signed them.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Presumably, you prepare not only the
20 applications but the warrants, do you?
21 A. Yes. Sorry. That's what confused me a wee minute ago.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: So this detail, "namely, trainers and
23 clothing", would have come from you, would it, either in
24 the form you filled in --
25 A. No. You showed me the form I filled in and it is not
56
1 mentioned in the form I filled in, so how that appeared
2 there, I do not know.
3 Q. You say you would have had a chat with him under oath
4 presumably.
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. So he would have been asking you things like,
7 presumably, "What is it you are looking for?"
8 Is that how this could have happened?
9 A. Are you suggesting he filled this in?
10 Q. I am asking you how he could have said it appears on
11 your affirmation that you are looking for trainers and
12 clothing.
13 A. I have never seen this typed document in my life before.
14 If you go back to the last document.
15 Q. Yes. Let's do that. It is [73985].
16 A. Yes. That's the document I completed there and signed
17 by Mr xxxxxxxxxx.
18 Q. Uh-huh.
19 A. Those words do not appear on that document.
20 Q. No. Let's go over the page of this. Let's see the
21 complete bundle. [73986]. And the next page [73987].
22 Then over to the following page [73988].
23 This is your authority to make the application,
24 isn't it, I think, signed by an inspector? Then over
25 the page [73989], we are moving on now to the Form 29,
57
1 to the actual search.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You see the position the Panel is in. It has your
4 document that you created to get the warrant and we have
5 the warrant.
6 A. That's the handwritten document I have written on, yes.
7 Q. Then we have the warrant, which limits you in the
8 search.
9 A. No. The typed copy is not similar to the handwritten
10 copy.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I am curious -- perhaps all of us are -- to
12 know who prepared the typewritten warrant.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: That's on HOLMES.
14 A. That's a HOLMES printout. I have never seen that
15 document. I have never seen that document in my life.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Not itself the document, but the copy of the
17 document the magistrate signed.
18 SIR JOHN EVANS: Would you not have had to take it to the
19 Justice to be signed?
20 A. I took the handwritten -- the one that I'd written on.
21 SIR JOHN EVANS: But he doesn't sign that one.
22 A. Sorry?
23 SIR JOHN EVANS: He doesn't sign the application. He signs
24 the warrant.
25 A. Yes, but the inspector signs the authorisation.
58
1 SIR JOHN EVANS: Yes, but --
2 A. I take the original warrant to the JP and he signs it.
3 SIR JOHN EVANS: So you did take the warrant?
4 A. The original document, not the typewritten document.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: If we go back to [51350], are you suggesting
6 this is an inaccurate HOLMES record of the warrant? Are
7 you telling us this is untrue?
8 A. If that is supposed to be a copy of what I wrote on the
9 warrant, it is not the same document.
10 Q. All right. So it is a false HOLMES record of the actual
11 warrant. That's your evidence?
12 A. I have no idea what it is. It is not my document.
13 Q. I can only tell you that the Police Service of Northern
14 Ireland has given us this as part of the HOLMES record
15 representing the warrant you have got.
16 If that's your evidence, this is not a true copy of
17 the warrant you got, then that's your evidence.
18 A. I have never seen that document before.
19 Q. Okay. Who was the HOLMES receiver?
20 A. I was.
21 Q. How is it that this could have gone on HOLMES without
22 you seeing it?
23 A. I see the handwritten copies. I never see the printed
24 copies.
25 Q. Okay.
59
1 THE CHAIRMAN: But the magistrate signs your handwritten
2 document --
3 A. That's correct.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- which you prepared as the warrant for him
5 to sign?
6 A. That is correct.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there anything on the document you
8 prepared about searching for trainers and clothing?
9 A. Unless I saw the original handwritten, I could not say,
10 but the copy that's on the screen doesn't say that.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: It does, you see. That's why I am asking the
12 question. If we are talking about the same document.
13 If you look at [51350] that you have, you see it refers
14 to "certain articles namely, trainers and clothing".
15 A. That's not the original. That's a copy of the original.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I follow that, yes, but you say those words
17 were not in what you yourself wrote out?
18 A. Unless I am physically shown my original handwritten
19 warrant, I cannot say.
20 SIR JOHN EVANS: Is it the case that you can't remember what
21 was on the original handwritten and you want to see it
22 to compare it before you accept that that's what was on
23 your handwritten?
24 A. Well, looking at the handwritten one, those words don't
25 appear on it.
60
1 SIR JOHN EVANS: We haven't got the handwritten one of the
2 warrant.
3 MR WOLFE: Sir, if I could perhaps assist, I have the
4 original of the complaint with me -- it is with somebody
5 in the room. We don't have with us today the original
6 of the warrant, which I think is the document that would
7 need to be seen. What we have on the screen is the
8 HOLMES version. I think that is perhaps what's
9 confusing the witness, if I may say so.
10 If it assists, I can hand in the original of the
11 complaint, but I don't think that assists you, because
12 you have that on the screen.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: What we need is --
14 MR WOLFE: The original of the warrant.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: -- the document which the magistrate signed
16 and which had to be shown to the householder. That's
17 correct.
18 MR WOLFE: I will make efforts to see if that can -- it will
19 not be done today, I suspect.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.
21 MR WOLFE: With that, I don't think I can assist any
22 further.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: If enquiries can be made, we would be
24 grateful.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: That's extremely helpful of my friend.
61
1 There are two possibilities here, Sergeant. One is
2 that in the warrant you drafted you mention trainers and
3 clothing and that this is a fair copy of that; the other
4 is that in the warrant you drafted you don't specify
5 trainers and clothing, but somehow or other an amendment
6 has been made in the course of you giving evidence to
7 the Justice of the Peace.
8 Would you accept those are the two possibilities?
9 A. Sorry. I don't -- an amendment was made between me
10 getting what?
11 Q. I will move on.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Would PSNI have the draft warrant?
13 MR WOLFE: I have what they call the complaint. I think
14 that is what it is called. Maybe I should just hand it
15 in right away and see if that assists. I will see what
16 we can do.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: We will come back to this.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. We know that when the search was, in fact, conducted,
20 only one room was examined and one jacket, one pair of
21 trousers and one pair of trainers were lifted.
22 Does that surprise you?
23 A. I accept -- take your word for it.
24 Q. Is that surprising, bearing in mind what you asked for
25 a search warrant for?
62
1 A. I don't follow your question.
2 Q. Right. Let's imagine, shall we, that the search warrant
3 asks for what it says on here. Just bear with me for
4 a moment. Humour me and assume this might be accurate.
5 You have a search warrant for trainers and clothing.
6 All right?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Does it surprise you that a whole team of searchers go
9 away and come back with three items of clothing and
10 nothing more?
11 A. I don't think I can answer that question.
12 Q. You were a detective sergeant. Yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You had read the statements. Yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You had interviewed the four in the Land Rover. Yes?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You had interviewed Hanvey?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you think of any possible basis upon which a search
21 of his house on 10th May could have been satisfactorily
22 conducted with only three items being seized?
23 A. The briefing of the search team and the CID officer who
24 went to Hanvey's house was done by DI Irwin.
25 Q. Yes.
63
1 A. I cannot recall what he said during that briefing.
2 Q. What possible basis could a briefing have had for only
3 identifying three items?
4 A. I can't recall that.
5 Q. Can we move on to page [81515], please? In paragraph 32
6 of your statement you say:
7 "In October 1997 I was instructed to attend
8 consultations in Belfast with the DPP and Gordon Kerr
9 Q.C. On 17th October 1997, I sat in on
10 a consultation with Tracey Clarke but played no part in
11 the consultation itself. I also sat in on the
12 consultation with Jonathan Wright. DC Honeyford and
13 I picked up Jonathan in Portadown and drove him to the
14 DPP offices. I think DC McAteer brought Tracey Clarke."
15 Have you any recollection of those?
16 A. I have, yes.
17 Q. If we can have a look at page [17591], what we have here
18 is a note made by Mr Davison from the DPP's office of
19 the consultation -- in fact, both of those
20 consultations, but I am only concerned with one of them.
21 If we see the passages in the middle of the page,
22 I am afraid we have simply lost bits of the words on the
23 right:
24 "On 17 October 1997 at 3.30 pm I attended
25 a consultation between Gordon Kerr Q.C. and
64
1 Witness A."
2 That's what Tracey Clarke was being called at the
3 time. Then it sets out who else was present, of course,
4 including you. It says:
5 "Witness A was accompanied by her parents", then it
6 goes on:
7 "Witness A is a pleasant looking, reasonably
8 well-dressed young woman. As she walked into the room,
9 she looked worried and, as soon as Gordon Kerr started
10 to talk to her, she started to cry. She cried quite
11 frequently during the consultation but was able to
12 relate the events of the night more or less in
13 accordance with her statement. She had not had
14 an opportunity to refresh her memory. She is reasonably
15 articulate and seemed to be telling the truth. If she
16 were to give evidence, I consider that she would come
17 across as very truthful."
18 It goes on in the next paragraph to talk about what
19 she said about giving evidence and that she would rather
20 die, because she loves Allister Hanvey, etc.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Having looked at that again and with the best you can do
23 with your memory, can you help us about what your
24 impression was of Tracey Clarke?
25 A. That was the second time I had met her. I had met her
65
1 first of all in her own house. Yes. As referred there
2 by Mr Davison, I would concur with that. I thought she
3 was telling the truth and she would have made a good
4 witness.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: That's all I have to ask you, Mr Bradley. As
6 I say, other people may have some more questions. It
7 may be we will need to come back if we can find that
8 original warrant. Thank you.
9 MR WOLFE: I have no questions.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have the document? Perhaps you would
11 show it to Mr Underwood.
12 MR WOLFE: I can hand in what's called the complaint. I am
13 trying to make arrangements to have something faxed up.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: If you just show it to Mr Underwood, he can
15 say whether he wants to ask anything more about that.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: That's very kind of my friend. That is the
17 one we have seen on screen, of course, but it does not
18 involve the warrant itself.
19 MR WOLFE: That's what I have asked for.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
21 Questions from MR McGRORY
22 MR McGRORY: I want to ask you some questions on behalf of
23 the Hamill family, Mr Bradley.
24 A. Okay, yes.
25 Q. Can I just start with the extent to which there was
66
1 an awareness within the police team dealing with this
2 matter from the morning of 28th April, which would be
3 the Monday morning onwards, of an issue, a live issue
4 about whether or not the Land Rover police behaved
5 properly?
6 Now, can you recall, was this -- I think you have
7 already said to Mr Underwood that this was something
8 which would have been discussed at an early stage.
9 A. Right. To go back to the day before, the Sunday.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. There was TV coverage, I had seen it on TV. I think it
12 was Mrs xxxxxxxxxx had been on and raised issues. That
13 was the first I heard of it.
14 Q. So this was a live public issue as early as the Sunday?
15 A. That's my recollection.
16 Q. Thank you for that.
17 You, on 9th May, the day after Robert Hamill died,
18 briefed two officers, an officer Dickson and
19 officer Williamson, to go out and do some knocking on
20 doors and talking to people.
21 Do you remember that at all?
22 A. I could have done.
23 Q. You can't remember.
24 A. What area was that?
25 Q. Well, they visited Thomas Street and they visited some
67
1 flats above Jameson's Bar.
2 A. Well, house-to-house enquiries. All the houses would
3 have been covered. I don't specifically recall this
4 incident.
5 Q. There was a hairdresser called Johnson spoken to by them
6 on 9th May, and other people. Do you remember that?
7 A. I remember the name Johnson.
8 Q. Your brief was the GBH investigation and then the
9 murder. Isn't that right?
10 A. That's what I was involved in, yes.
11 Q. You weren't actually involved in any investigation into
12 the conduct of the police in the Land Rover?
13 A. None whatsoever.
14 Q. But there would have been an awareness of the issue?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. Can you remember if you had any discussion of that issue
17 with Constables Williamson and Dickson on 9th May
18 whenever they were going out?
19 A. No. I don't know when they joined the Inquiry team, but
20 they would have been aware of it, I am sure. They were
21 on the team from probably the beginning or near the
22 beginning and they would have been as aware as I would
23 have been.
24 Q. Thank you. Would you look -- I am moving on to
25 a different subject now. Could you have a look, please,
68
1 at page [10789]? This is, I suggest, a force manual on
2 the MIRIAM system.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. This is page one. Do you recognise this document?
5 A. I would have read it at some stage, yes.
6 Q. Now, it sets out a number of sort of procedures that one
7 would expect to find in a MIRIAM investigation,
8 including, at 2 there, a major incident room. It sets
9 out the objectives of it.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. At (c) and (d), if you would look at under 2(1), the
12 objectives of the major incident room, some of them are:
13 "To provide all officers with a means of acquiring
14 all previous knowledge of any person, vehicle, address
15 or subject pertinent to their enquiries."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I have read it, yes.
18 Q. Then below it:
19 "To keep records in a manner which highlights
20 people, vehicles or other factors which have become
21 subject to enquiry, in order that such records are
22 capable of pin-pointing suspects to whom the senior
23 investigating officer may direct special attention."
24 A. Yes, I have read that.
25 Q. So can we presume then that the object of the whole
69
1 MIRIAM exercise is to have a central record of all
2 information from which the investigators can draw when
3 conducting their investigations?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. So obviously, when there are briefings, people are being
6 updated on what's happening at team meetings like that
7 on the Monday morning, for example?
8 A. Yes. There was maybe two or three conferences per day,
9 yes.
10 Q. When people are being tasked to go and take actions and
11 so forth, all the information is available? That's the
12 object of the exercise?
13 A. Yes. All available to the SIO or the officer in charge.
14 Every officer on the team wouldn't know everything, but
15 they would have ...
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All the information has to be fed back to the
17 offer in charge to become accessible to him?
18 A. Well, the MIRIAM system was a paper inquiry. Normally,
19 there was -- lever arch files would include action
20 sheets, statements, messages, other documents. All
21 these documents were in the various lever arch files.
22 MR McGRORY: Indeed, there will be some element, I suppose,
23 in this documentation, of intended actions?
24 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. The folder, the way it worked
25 it was split in two. There was a divider and actions
70
1 raised and not issued would still be in the folder.
2 Q. So when it comes -- the turning point of this
3 investigation was on 8th May when Robert Hamill died and
4 it becomes a murder and subsequently becomes a HOLMES
5 document?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. You would expect that the MIRIAM manual, the contents of
8 it, would have been transferred over?
9 A. That did happen, yes.
10 Q. It did happen?
11 A. Oh, it did, yes.
12 Q. Did you do that?
13 A. No. The folder containing those action sheets,
14 statements were all taken to the incident rooms in
15 Gough Barracks and there is another team does the HOLMES
16 actual inputting. There was a detective sergeant in
17 charge of that team and four other operators plus four
18 indexers or thereabouts.
19 Q. So there are manual operators who receive the material
20 and they create an electronic version by keying or
21 scanning -- keying in the information or scanning it on?
22 A. Keying it in.
23 Q. I presume nowadays you might scan it, but maybe then it
24 was ...
25 A. I don't know.
71
1 Q. At least by the -- that process probably didn't begin
2 until the 9th.
3 A. The instruction was given at 7 o'clock or so that
4 evening by Mr McBurney to set up the HOLMES room.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that the evening of the 8th, the evening
6 of Robert Hamill's death?
7 A. That's correct. The staff would not have been available
8 that night. The staff would have been available from
9 9 o'clock the next morning.
10 MR McGRORY: But what I am getting at here is the
11 information that would have been available to the
12 briefing team on the morning of the 10th when the homes
13 of a number of people, including Allister Hanvey's, were
14 searched.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The source of that information would probably have been
17 the MIRIAM manual, or perhaps it was in the process of
18 being turned into a HOLMES manual.
19 A. The source of that was from the statement that was
20 recorded late on the Friday night, early hours of
21 Saturday morning.
22 Q. But there would have been more information than that fed
23 into the inquiry, of course. Obviously, the most recent
24 information came from Tracey Clarke on the night of the
25 9th and 10th?
72
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. But then there ought to have been a record of the
3 statements of the Land Rover crew, the back-up crews,
4 Constables Cooke, Warnock, all of those?
5 A. Well, Tracey Clarke was interviewed in Portadown
6 station. Okay? All of that documentation was held in
7 the incident room in Gough ten miles away.
8 Q. Right.
9 A. So all the warrants that were made out that night for
10 the searches, all came, to my understanding, from --
11 now, from my point of view, it came from her statement
12 plus whatever DI Irwin knew over and above that.
13 Q. You see, what I am getting at here, Mr Bradley, is that
14 the development over the night of the 9th and 10th, the
15 Tracey Clarke and Timothy Jameson information that had
16 come in during that 24-hour period 9th to 10th May, was
17 the latest in quite a bit information that had been
18 coming in since the incident had occurred on 27th April.
19 A. That's correct, yes.
20 Q. And that some analysis of the relationship between the
21 new material and the existing material would have been
22 required around about that point.
23 A. Sorry. I don't follow.
24 Q. Well, somebody who was directing operations -- I am not
25 suggesting it was you at all -- someone who was
73
1 directing the investigation would have needed to have
2 been familiar with the material that had come in up to
3 that point?
4 A. Well, that night, the Friday night, early hours Saturday
5 morning, P39 was the officer on duty that night and it
6 was her directed the arrest, searches, that took place
7 on the Saturday morning.
8 Q. But in your experience, once there is a development,
9 a twist in an investigation -- and I am sure there have
10 been many in which you have been involved over the
11 years -- somebody takes stock of "Okay. Where does this
12 take us and what do we do now? How does this piece of
13 information relate to all the other information we
14 have?"
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you aware of any such exercise taking place at that
17 point around 10th May?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: "Exercise" is rather an elastic word. Can
19 you be more precise?
20 MR McGRORY: Any such ...
21 A. The only officer on duty that night was P39, DC McAteer
22 and, I think, myself.
23 Q. Is it possible that the manual, the MIRIAM manual, had
24 gone to Gough?
25 A. Oh, it was away from 9 o'clock the morning after
74
1 Mr Hamill died.
2 Q. So might, then, the actions that took place on
3 10th May --
4 A. Sorry. I might have misled you. Certainly, if it
5 wasn't that day, certainly very soon afterwards.
6 Q. I am just exploring whether or not it is possible that
7 the MIRIAM manual --
8 A. The lever arch files?
9 Q. -- yes, if it existed -- I will come back to that in
10 a moment -- that the MIRIAM manual --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: It is not the manual. It is the records
12 compiled.
13 MR McGRORY: That's what I mean. Sorry. The MIRIAM
14 booklet. I am using the wrong word.
15 A. It is lever arch files.
16 Q. The MIRIAM lever arch file had gone to Gough?
17 A. Oh, yes. That was -- the documents that were in those
18 folders were probably the first documents they inserted
19 on to the HOLMES system.
20 Once the system is created, the original documents
21 go over to the HOLMES room, we don't get them back
22 again. They keep them. They file them off after they
23 input them into the system.
24 Q. But you have no personal recollection of whether or not
25 anybody was looking for it, there had been a reference
75
1 to it or there had been any briefing out of that lever
2 arch file on the morning of the 10th?
3 A. We wouldn't have had access to it.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the lever arch file had gone to
5 Gough Barracks. The information on the file, or the
6 files, was put into HOLMES, which henceforth, as
7 I understand it, is the source of information.
8 You don't, in other words, go back to the files
9 prepared under MIRIAM or mini-MIRIAM. There is no need.
10 It is all on HOLMES now. That's as I understand the
11 evidence we have heard.
12 MR McGRORY: What I am suggesting is there may have been
13 a falling between stools on 10th May in the sense that
14 the key information that one would have expected to have
15 been on the lever arch file, the MIRIAM lever arch file,
16 had gone physically to Gough Barracks, and the HOLMES
17 process had commenced and maybe had not completed, so
18 that those who gathered on the early hours of 10th May
19 to effect the arrests of Hanvey and others might have
20 not had the information they should have had to their
21 fingertips.
22 A. I would say DI Irwin had it in his head. DI Irwin had
23 full control, knowledge of what was going on. He had
24 briefed the party that morning. I can't recall the
25 detail of the briefing, but he gave the search leaders
76
1 and the CID officer going out on that search operation
2 a full briefing.
3 Q. We will take it up with him. Thank you for your help on
4 that.
5 Just one other thing. I have to raise this with
6 you, because the issue of the MIRIAM was raised with
7 P39. She said it wasn't a full-scale MIRIAM. It was
8 a sort of mini-MIRIAM.
9 A. I would call it that, yes.
10 Q. You would call it that as well?
11 A. In the full MIRIAM system, the old index cards, drawers
12 and drawers of index cards, suspects, vehicles,
13 everything. Certainly that wasn't done, but the
14 actions, messages, other documents, statements -- there
15 was folders. It was partly -- part of the system.
16 Q. This document here that I have referred you to -- it is
17 still on the screen -- suggests all sorts of people be
18 appointed, like statement readers and action allocators
19 and office managers and administration officers, and P39
20 said, "Look, we didn't have those resources".
21 A. We did not have them. That's why it is referred to as
22 a mini-system.
23 Q. One of the appointments in this, which seems like
24 a sensible appointment -- they all do -- is a statement
25 reader. Would that have been what was happening to you
77
1 when you were asked to read those statements?
2 A. Yes, you could have said that, yes.
3 Q. But you didn't have that sort of formal title or
4 anything?
5 A. No, no. We were doing everything.
6 Q. Thank you. There is one point of information just
7 I want to bring you to in your statement. It is at
8 page 31 of your statement. I am sorry. I don't have
9 the Inquiry reference number. It is page 31 of your
10 statement. Sorry. Page 8, paragraph 31. [81515].
11 Thank you to Mr Adair.
12 You talk about going out to the Woods's flat.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You say you have a vague recollection you went to see
15 her because her brother had been the first person
16 assaulted in Portadown.
17 A. Yes, I can remember that clearly now.
18 Q. I just want to say to you there is some controversy
19 about that. That might have been what he said, but
20 there is quite a bit of dispute about that.
21 Do you accept that that's something about which
22 there is a lot to be said?
23 A. He was assaulted that night in Thomas Street, yes. What
24 is the dispute?
25 Q. Well, there is a dispute in the evidence as to whether
78
1 or not he was assaulted or was involved in a fight and
2 at what stage this happened. So I am just wanting you
3 to clarify that this might have been your understanding,
4 but ...
5 A. My recollection is that he was beaten up a short
6 distance up Thomas Street. His sister lives in a flat
7 in around the area where this all took place. After the
8 assault, he went to his sister's flat or door, battered
9 it, and she eventually came down and she didn't
10 recognise him he was so badly beaten up.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr McGrory, you can take it that,
12 rather than rely upon this -- and I don't mean any
13 disrespect to Mr Bradley, but he is relying upon what he
14 has been told -- we should be looking at what the
15 witnesses themselves say.
16 MR McGRORY: I am grateful to you for that, Mr Chairman.
17 One final issue, Mr Bradley. This is to do with the
18 practices and procedures that there may have existed in
19 such an inquiry about the gathering of CCTV evidence
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. What we do know is that Detective Constable Keys was
22 dispatched on the morning of the 29th after the meeting
23 to go and gather up CCTV evidence?
24 A. I knew he had done that, but I am not sure what date it
25 was.
79
1 Q. He does. He looks at some in the police station and
2 some he looked at out on premises on site and so forth.
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. There appears to be no record other than his note of his
5 observations, an action record print. There was no --
6 there appears to have been no procedure of there being
7 two people watching it and taking a formal record or,
8 indeed, of the retaining the tapes for any length of
9 time. Can you comment on the practice at the time?
10 A. Normally, if you are in a public order situation, if
11 there was a lot of people on the street, two people
12 should be viewing it, yes.
13 I know that DC Keys did not retain -- he did view
14 the videos, but did not retain them.
15 Q. Can you offer us any help in respect of whether or not
16 that would have been regarded as normal or something
17 that maybe should have been done differently?
18 A. Well, I don't know. I know we took the decision,
19 whether it was immediately after that, or after that, or
20 some lot of years, but no matter what you went to, if
21 there was video evidence, you took it, retained it and
22 gave a blank tape back to the person you were taking it
23 from.
24 I know that was the procedure introduced, but when
25 that was introduced, I can't recall.
80
1 Q. Did you have any discussion of the value of CCTV
2 evidence within the team?
3 A. Yes. It was -- I was surprised that the videos weren't
4 retained.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say --
6 A. If I had done it myself, I would have kept the videos.
7 That's what I am saying.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say it was a job for two people, was
9 that that two people should watch the same tape or
10 simply, as there were a number of tapes, there should be
11 two people, each watching some of them?
12 A. No. My recollection is that two people watched -- if
13 you are doing it, trying to identify a group of
14 people -- you know, identify people from a group or from
15 the street, it took two people to view it, but ...
16 THE CHAIRMAN: That's assuming there is something to be
17 seen?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see. Thank you.
20 MR McGRORY: Yes. Thank you.
21 Now, we have had evidence from two members of the
22 Hamill family about a meeting in Portadown Police
23 Station with Inspector Irwin, which we believe you might
24 have attended within a few days of the incident and
25 a good while before Robert Hamill actually died, so we
81
1 think it might have been around 30th April or possibly
2 1st May now.
3 Having looked at your notebooks, you were not on
4 duty on 1st May and were not for another four or five
5 days. So if you were at this meeting, it had to be on
6 30th April or maybe the 29th.
7 Now, have you any memory of two of the Hamill
8 sisters coming to Portadown Police Station and speaking
9 to yourself and Mr Irwin?
10 A. I have no recollection of that whatsoever.
11 Q. Out of fairness to you I am going to tell you why I am
12 raising it. Their evidence is that they have a memory
13 of Mr Irwin -- of asking him about the CCTV and of him
14 saying to them that the Land Rover had turned up on the
15 CCTV but that it was felt it was of no value.
16 Now, that conflicts quite sharply with the evidence
17 of DC Keys, which was that there was no such --
18 A. No. That is correct. There was nothing on the videos,
19 according to DC Keys.
20 Q. But have you any memory of being in a room with
21 Detective Inspector Irwin and two members of the Hamill
22 family during which CCTV was discussed?
23 A. I have no recollection of meeting the Hamill family at
24 any stage other than at a PE stage some 12 months later
25 in Craigavon Courthouse.
82
1 Q. I will take it no further than that. Nothing further.
2 Thank you.
3 Questions from MR MALLON
4 MR MALLON: I am very much obliged to my learned friend.
5 If I can take you back to a number of discrete
6 items, the first one I would take you back to is the
7 lodging of the statements of the officers who were in
8 the Land Rover.
9 As I understand it, your evidence has been that they
10 were contained in a file and that P39 gave those to you
11 or sent you into the room to get them.
12 Is that correct as you remember it?
13 A. The folder was in the CID office, the office I worked
14 from.
15 Q. In your interview you said there may be as many as
16 eight, nine, ten statements in it. Can you remember
17 now?
18 A. Yes. I remember the folder and I remember the
19 statements, yes.
20 Q. There were a lot of statements. There were not just the
21 four, but there were additional statements, presumably
22 from other uniformed people?
23 A. Yes. That is correct.
24 Q. So you had a fair number of statements, all of them
25 completed the night before, which would have been the
83
1 27th?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In fact, Mr Atkinson's original statement shows you
4 receiving it on the 27th?
5 A. No, I didn't receive it.
6 Q. I beg your pardon?
7 A. He dated it the 27th.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I wasn't on duty on the 27th.
10 Q. Then you signed it, did you?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. It was signed by you, not on the 27th but on the 28th?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. On the face of it, it appears to be signed by you on
15 the 27th?
16 A. No. That's the date he signs it when he makes the
17 statement. You know, I have signed numerous statements.
18 It could have been a week later or a month later.
19 Q. The fact he dates it the 27th does not govern your
20 signature at all?
21 A. No, that's when he --
22 Q. That's a bit of confusion you have helped to clear up.
23 Thank you.
24 Now, he said that he left his original statement in
25 a pigeonhole. Would that have been abnormal? When you
84
1 were leaving something for the CID, would you leave it
2 in a pigeonhole for them, and, from there, would it be
3 collected?
4 A. I have no recollection of CID having a pigeonhole
5 anywhere.
6 Q. That's what he said happened. Do you have any reason to
7 disbelieve that could be correct?
8 Nothing turns on it. I am just trying to --
9 A. I can't recollect where CID had a pigeonhole. No. You
10 know, it may have been correct, but I can't recall where
11 this pigeonhole was.
12 Q. Now, when you looked at his statement, you saw
13 a number of things that you thought were defective, in
14 that it didn't contain enough detail from somebody that
15 you felt should have known quite a lot more, because he
16 was a local man.
17 A. I thought he should have recognised more people, yes.
18 Q. You thought he should have recognised more. He did, in
19 fact, provide you with additional information. Isn't
20 that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Now, if I can go to page [81391], this is Mr Atkinson's
23 Inquiry statement. If you would like to look at
24 paragraph 32 with me:
25 "Later, under instruction, by way of telephone call,
85
1 I returned to Portadown Police Station and it was at
2 that time I was asked to provide a statement outlining
3 what I had witnessed earlier in the town centre.
4 I believe that this", overleaf, [81392], "request was
5 made either by Detective Constable Keys or Detective
6 Sergeant Bradley."
7 Now, you were not in on that date, so it could have
8 been Detective Constable Keys.
9 A. Detective Constable Keys was the officer called out in
10 the early hours of the Sunday morning --
11 Q. You were not there, so again we clear up that piece of
12 confusion?
13 A. Certainly I didn't call him back in.
14 Q. "I recall writing out my statement contained in
15 document 9683 and leaving it in the CID pigeonhole
16 before leaving shortly after 8.00 am."
17 Then he goes on to say he contacted Constable Neill.
18 Then he says in the next paragraph:
19 "I remember speaking to Detective Sergeant Bradley
20 in the CID office on 28 April 1997."
21 Do you remember that as well?
22 A. I do, yes.
23 Q. "I was there, together with a number of officers ..."
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Three other officers.
86
1 Q. "... who had been on duty on the night of the
2 disturbance. Detective Sergeant Bradley asked us, as
3 a group, whether we could give any further information
4 with a view to identifying persons involved in the
5 disorder."
6 Do you agree with that?
7 A. I spoke to the four officers. I asked them had they
8 completed their statements and he said he hadn't. So
9 I chased him, "Get it completed". So he left the room
10 at that stage. Within a couple of minutes of the five
11 of us meeting there, I sent him away to complete his
12 statement.
13 Q. But before you sent him away --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- did you ask them as a group whether they could give
16 any further information? Because he said it wasn't
17 directed specifically at him but as part of a group.
18 A. I addressed them generally what my role was going to be
19 and then, after that, he -- I became aware his statement
20 wasn't complete, so then I sent him out of the room to
21 complete his statement.
22 Q. So we are not in any way divergent about that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. After you asked them about it as a group, then he was
25 sent away to add a bit to his statement, you say?
87
1 A. That's what happened.
2 Q. Now, he says in his witness statement that he named
3 Rory Robinson, he named Wayne Lunt and he had further
4 information which he provided about Victoria Clayton,
5 "Rat" Gray and Stacey Bridgett. Those are the people
6 you filled in additional forms for.
7 A. I completed two additional forms. I can't remember the
8 names now, but there was two names. "Rat" Gray,
9 I think.
10 Q. "Rat" Gray, Stacey Bridgett and Victoria Clayton?
11 A. I can't recall the other two names. He did provide
12 additional information and I recorded it on the message
13 forms.
14 Q. When that is done, he has provided you with important
15 information. Isn't that correct?
16 A. That's two additional names, as far as I was concerned,
17 yes.
18 Q. Now, at this time, when you had the four men together,
19 did it occur to you --
20 A. You are misleading. When I spoke to Robert Atkinson,
21 the other three had gone.
22 Q. The other three had gone?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then let's go back a few minutes before that before they
25 had all gone.
88
1 Did it occur to you that the easiest way to deal
2 with this group might have been through the line of
3 command through their sergeant?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ask their sergeant to provide you with
6 a statement, because he was in charge? He was at the
7 scene. He was there on the night. He had eye-witness
8 accounts of everything and he did eventually provide
9 a statement.
10 Why did you not ask him, "You were in charge. What
11 did you delegate the men to do? What did you see? What
12 happened?"
13 A. I think I have already stated this now. I was briefed
14 by P39. She asked me to go through these specific four
15 statements with the officers in the Land Rover. She did
16 not mention the sergeant. So I -- these two officers
17 were contacted at home and brought in.
18 Q. Yes. I understand that. So you deal with the four men
19 in the Land Rover?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. But, still, the sergeant is the important man.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: He has just answered that question. He said
23 "I did what I was told to do by P39", and she was the
24 senior.
25 MR MALLON: Would you allow me, please, to continue, because
89
1 I am going to ask him about --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: No. He has dealt with that. If you have
3 a new question, please ask it.
4 MR MALLON: I have a new question, and I was asking a new
5 question. Please do not interrupt me.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You are covering the same ground again.
7 Please don't argue with me. Get on to something new.
8 MR MALLON: After the men had gone out of the building in
9 the next space of time, did it occur to you to speak to
10 the sergeant?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: No. No more of that.
12 MR MALLON: The next day, did it occur to you to speak to
13 the sergeant?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: No more of that. I have explained why. The
15 witness has given his evidence about why he did what he
16 did. He was the investigator.
17 MR MALLON: Then can I take you to the sergeant's statement,
18 if I may be permitted? In his statement, the first
19 statement that he made, he deals with what he saw on the
20 night. Are you aware of that? The statement was
21 dated --
22 A. I am sorry. It is not up in front of me. Can I have it
23 up in front of me?
24 Q. -- 7th May. It is page [09213]. Now, that statement
25 was made on 7th May 1997.
90
1 A. I am sorry. I missed the date there.
2 Q. 7th May --
3 A. Can you ...
4 Q. -- 1997.
5 A. That's correct. I see it now, yes.
6 Q. That's nearly ten days later.
7 A. That's what appears so, yes.
8 Q. So a gap of ten days before you ask or before you even
9 get a statement from the officer in control of the
10 situation at that time?
11 A. The sergeant wasn't at the scene for -- the whole
12 incident was more or less over when the sergeant
13 appeared on the scene, but this would have been fed into
14 the system, all the names.
15 Someone got an action sheet to see Sergeant P89
16 and that's when the statement was received or done by
17 him.
18 Q. Now, in that statement, that sergeant, who was also
19 a local man, does not give any names or descriptions of
20 anyone.
21 A. That sergeant was not a local man.
22 Q. He was involved and he was in charge in that station at
23 that time?
24 A. Oh, he was, yes.
25 Q. He doesn't give even one name.
91
1 A. But the incident is over when the sergeant arrives down
2 at the scene.
3 Q. On 9th May, Allister Hanvey becomes a suspect.
4 A. 9th May, 10th, yes.
5 Q. It isn't until 28th December that that sergeant --
6 28th December 2000 that that sergeant provides you with
7 a statement identifying Allister Hanvey.
8 A. Can I see it up on the screen, please?
9 Q. Yes, please, page [11084].
10 A. Sorry. Could you go back to ... I am supposed to have
11 received that statement from him, have I?
12 Q. No. What I am saying is that is the first time that
13 anyone is asked about Allister Hanvey who was at the
14 scene, because Mr -- sorry -- Sergeant P89 there
15 gives an indication of what Allister Hanvey was doing
16 that night.
17 A. I have never seen that statement before.
18 Q. You have never seen that statement before?
19 A. No. Can I read through it?
20 Q. By all means.
21 A. Yes, I see Hanvey's name mentioned there, yes.
22 Q. And quite a detailed description, not only of his name,
23 but what he was doing and how he was identified.
24 A. Yes. He is identified by Reserve Constable Atkinson to
25 the sergeant. He tells him to be wary because he is
92
1 a martial arts expert, words to that effect.
2 Q. Now when this statement was made, Mr Hanvey had moved
3 from bystander, after Tracey Clarke's statement, to
4 suspect?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. When were you aware of that change?
7 A. When he -- when P39 briefed me in the early hours of the
8 Saturday morning.
9 Q. In the early hours -- were you aware of Mr Hanvey's name
10 before that?
11 A. I had spoken to him. I had taken a statement off him
12 before this, before he became a suspect.
13 Q. You had taken a statement off him before he became
14 a suspect?
15 A. I have already stated that.
16 Q. You had spoken to him. When did you next speak to him
17 after he became a suspect?
18 A. I don't recall ever speaking to him again.
19 Q. Right. So when it comes to it, the omission of taking
20 proper information from a sergeant who was in control at
21 the scene meant that Mr Hanvey's name did not come up
22 until some considerable time later?
23 A. An action sheet was raised shortly after the incident
24 for a statement to be taken from Sergeant P89. He
25 provided that statement on -- I think it was 7th May,
93
1 and there was no mention of Hanvey. This statement was
2 dated 2000. That's the first time that Sergeant P89
3 has mentioned that and certainly I have never seen that
4 statement before.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is not accurate to say Hanvey's date had
6 not come up until this date. On the 9th, I think it
7 was, Tracey Clarke had made a statement about him.
8 MR MALLON: On the night of 9th.
9 A. Finished on the 10th, morning. Yes.
10 MR MALLON: I understand that. What I am saying is this
11 sergeant did not mention his name, even though he was
12 a suspect after 9th, for some considerable time later.
13 A. Well, Mr Hanvey would have been charged with murder on
14 the 10th, which is -- what -- three years before this?
15 Q. Precisely. Now, what I am going to suggest to you, is
16 that it was a deficiency in the investigatory process
17 that did not require that sergeant to be debriefed or to
18 make a statement involving the same detail that was
19 required of the constables, as his statement on the
20 7th makes no mention of Hanvey, 7th May.
21 A. I have read that. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. And the next one makes no mention of him?
23 A. Sorry.
24 Q. In the next statement, he makes no mention of him. It
25 is only in the third statement --
94
1 A. You have only referred to two statements here.
2 Q. We will go back again then, if you don't -- it is
3 unnecessary. It is not made until three years later.
4 Now, do you not think it would have been very
5 helpful for you to get a statement from the sergeant who
6 was in charge on the night at about the same time you
7 got the statements from the Land Rover crew and the
8 other statements, not only from the Land Rover crew, but
9 from the back-up vehicles?
10 A. The back-up vehicle did make statements. Gordon Cooke,
11 Warnock's name was mentioned, Jimmy Murphy -- I think it
12 was James Murphy. There were several other statements
13 available. The sergeant was probably one of the few
14 that didn't make a statement before he went home that
15 day in the morning.
16 Q. He wasn't required to, apparently.
17 A. Sorry.
18 Q. Nobody asked him to.
19 A. I wasn't there, so I don't know what he was asked or why
20 he wasn't asked.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this?
22 A. Certainly.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there a reason why you didn't ask
24 Sergeant P89 for a statement at the time, shortly
25 after the incident?
95
1 A. An action sheet would have been raised and it could have
2 been given to any investigating detective. Who it was
3 given to, I don't know, but --
4 Q. Does that mean you would only act on an action sheet?
5 A. No, no, but the statement -- the DI raised actions from
6 the statements already in the system and
7 Sergeant P89's name would have been one of the names
8 in the system. So an action sheet should have been
9 raised.
10 I don't know what the -- Duty Sergeant P89 or
11 not. He finished night duty. I am not sure when night
12 duty finished. Possibly on the Sunday morning or Monday
13 morning for -- then he would have been off for several
14 days. Whether he was on leave or not, I don't know, but
15 I understand it probably should have been taken before
16 the 7th, but why it wasn't, I can't explain.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: DI Irwin was your superior?
18 A. Yes. He started the investigation on the Tuesday
19 morning, really.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
21 MR MALLON: I intend just to leave that point at that stage,
22 because obviously it will come back in this other way.
23 Now, you indicated that when a particular task was
24 dealt with, you would have made a notebook entry into it
25 and your notebook is to be found at 72962 and 72963.
96
1 I am not asking that it be opened. All I am saying is
2 you made no complaint about the way Robert Atkinson gave
3 his statement to you. At all times he was helpful,
4 wasn't he?
5 A. I am still not complaining.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Now, you also provided assistance in the interview
8 of Tracey Clarke at her home. That's at page 45 of your
9 statement --
10 A. I was present.
11 Q. -- the transcript. Yes, you were present.
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. That was described both as an interview and a pro forma
14 filling-out session?
15 A. It could be described as an interview, yes.
16 Q. Before the pro forma was filled out, did you ask
17 Tracey Clarke, or were you present when she was asked,
18 I think by officer McAteer --
19 A. He was with me, yes.
20 Q. He was the one, I think, who conducted the interview.
21 I think you sat basically as assistant.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He asked her about what she had been doing that night.
24 A. I can't recall just what questions are on the
25 questionnaire, but he certainly went through the
97
1 questionnaire with her and that certainly would have
2 been asked.
3 Q. You were sitting in the family home. I think you
4 described it as sitting in the living room.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Her mother was there.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Was her father there?
9 A. I have no recollection of the father.
10 Q. You describe the mother as being someone who had --
11 A. She had serious medical problems, yes.
12 Q. Medical problems.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was Andrea McKee there? Do you know Andrea McKee?
15 A. I don't.
16 Q. When Tracey Clarke came into the room --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there another woman there besides
18 Tracey Clarke and her mother?
19 A. No. My recollection is, when we were admitted to the
20 house, her mother was sitting watching TV. There was
21 no-one else there. Tracey was upstairs and the mother
22 called for her and she came down after X number
23 of minutes. That's when we spoke to her.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
25 MR MALLON: You say at page 44 of your interview transcript,
98
1 and I don't want to open it, but just simply indicate it
2 to you, that her mother was there:
3 "Yes, I think -- no, just her mother to the best of
4 my recollection."
5 A. Still the same.
6 Q. Still the same recollection?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You say:
9 "I can picture myself in the room, the morning
10 there, Tracey coming down after maybe a couple
11 of minutes from upstairs or come from another part of
12 the house, but I have no recollection of -- or anything
13 else."
14 A. "Anyone else".
15 Q. "Or anyone else"? Well, your statement says "anything
16 else".
17 I think simply what you are saying is there was just
18 a very quiet -- two people, mother and daughter,
19 yourself and McAteer --
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. -- sitting in the room.
22 A. That's my recollection.
23 Q. When Tracey came down and entered the room, now you
24 describe her as quite a petite, quite a pleasant-looking
25 girl. Is that correct?
99
1 A. Yes, that's my recollection.
2 Q. Her manner, when she came down to you, was it fairly
3 light, easy?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. She wasn't upset or concerned?
6 A. No.
7 Q. She gave you a full hearing of the questions you asked
8 and provided you with the information that you sought
9 from her?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, is that the information that's contained at
12 pages [17649] and [17650]? If they could be brought up
13 simultaneously. It is the pro forma.
14 Now, this was completed, I think, on 8th May 1997.
15 Do you see that on it?
16 A. Oh, I do, yes.
17 Q. Was that the day Robert Hamill died? Do you remember
18 that? If you can't remember --
19 A. I think that's correct.
20 Q. You think it is correct?
21 A. I stand to be corrected, but I think that's correct,
22 yes.
23 Q. Was that matter touched upon or raised in the interview,
24 that the man about whom this pro forma was being raised
25 may have died that day? Do you remember?
100
1 A. I don't recall, but I don't see any reason why it should
2 have been mentioned.
3 Q. Whoever was giving you this information understood and
4 realised this was a very serious matter?
5 A. I am sorry. I don't follow.
6 Q. A man had died.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were questioning her about the incident in which the
9 man had died.
10 A. That's correct, yes.
11 Q. You couldn't treat that with levity. That would have to
12 be dealt with in a very serious way.
13 A. It has been dealt with in a serious way from the very
14 first day.
15 Q. I understand that's from your point of view, but, from
16 her point of view, was it equally serious?
17 A. I am sorry. I can't comment on what her views were.
18 Q. But her behaviour, you can comment on that. She didn't
19 treat it -- or did she treat it as a matter of some
20 levity, or something light, or did she treat it
21 seriously.
22 A. No, she gave us a fair hearing, she answered the
23 questions fairly as far as I was concerned and her
24 answers were recorded by Mr McAteer.
25 Q. Those answers were given freely without any form of
101
1 pressure?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. So when she said -- and the answers to the questions are
4 quite clear:
5 "You have been identified as being present at
6 Market Street, Portadown, on 27th April 1997 at or
7 around the time of a serious assault.
8 "Where were you coming from?
9 She says:
10 "Coming from the Coach in Banbridge."
11 She then gives a number of people that she was with.
12 She is also asked:
13 "Who else was in the vicinity? (describe location
14 in relation to themselves and their account of movements
15 through town centre)."
16 She indicates that she:
17 "Got off Coach bus and walked up town. Saw police
18 Land Rover at the Halifax. Walked up to Mandarin House.
19 Heard shouting coming from town centre and saw two
20 persons lying in the road at junction of
21 Thomas Street/Market Street."
22 That's all her evidence to you?
23 A. That was recorded by DC McAteer, so that's what she must
24 have said.
25 Q. In note form?
102
1 A. Sorry.
2 Q. In note form. It is not filled out or fleshed out. It
3 is taken in sort of staccato verse, as it were. You
4 then asked:
5 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so,
6 give details."
7 Her answer to that is:
8 "No."
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. She didn't see an assault. She was then asked what she
11 was wearing:
12 "Is there anything else you would like to add?"
13 She says:
14 "No."
15 She is also asked:
16 "Who else travelled from Banbridge to Portadown with
17 you?"
18 She answers that:
19 "As above."
20 Does she make any reference there to Allister Hanvey
21 at that time when she was given the opportunity:
22 "Is there anything else you would like to add?"
23 Did she mention Allister Hanvey or --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Mallon, you are simply, in the guise of
25 asking questions, making a speech. Mrs Dinsmore will be
103
1 able to address us about this when she makes her
2 submissions.
3 This is not a useful way of taking up time. You
4 will cease.
5 MR MALLON: Was she given the opportunity --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You have asked that. We have seen that. No
7 more of that, please. Now, leave this interview.
8 MR MALLON: Now, when you got back to the station, that
9 information would have been put into the system,
10 wouldn't it?
11 A. That pro forma would have been completed and retained by
12 DC McAteer. Whether he went and briefed anyone that
13 night or kept it to the next morning to the first
14 conference, I just can't recall what he did with it.
15 Q. But you would have expected it somehow to make its way
16 into the general intelligence. That was what the
17 pro forma was for?
18 A. Oh, it would have been submitted, yes. Whether it was
19 done that night or the next morning at 9 o'clock
20 I cannot recall. I am sure no-one could.
21 Q. Now, you were not with Tracey Clarke on the next evening
22 when she came in to make a statement?
23 A. What date? That was the Friday night.
24 Q. That was the 9th.
25 A. The 9th. Okay. No.
104
1 Q. But you saw her in the police station?
2 A. I saw her coming up the stairs towards the general CID
3 office. Then she would have turned right and into P39's
4 office.
5 Q. So she had made this pro forma the day before she made
6 a second statement to the police?
7 A. A second statement?
8 Q. Well, this being her first statement, an additional
9 statement.
10 A. I wouldn't class that as a statement.
11 Q. What would you class it as?
12 A. As a general pro forma that was used during the inquiry.
13 As you said, it was completed on the 8th and then the
14 following evening --
15 Q. She had given information on the 8th, then went in and
16 made -- or gave further information on the 9th.
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Less than 24 hours between them?
19 A. That's what happened.
20 MR MALLON: Thank you.
21 Questions from MR McCOMB
22 MR McCOMB: Mr Bradley, I appear, amongst other people, for
23 Mr Hanvey and certainly have some interest in the
24 affairs of Tracey Clarke as well.
25 May I take you back very briefly? Could we have
105
1 [08176] and [08179], please, put up? [08177]. This is
2 a memo from Mr Irwin to Mr Marshall of the Forensic
3 Department. May I take you just to the last four or
4 five lines on [08177]? It says:
5 "There were no known original suspects and no
6 immediate arrests were made. A number of persons were
7 identified in the area that had 'bleeding' injuries at
8 the time of the incident and are believed to have been
9 involved in the assaults."
10 At first sight, that would give one the impression
11 perhaps there were people already suspected by your
12 colleagues, by Mr Irwin and others?
13 A. What is the date?
14 Q. It is the 6th -- it is sent on 6th May to the Forensic
15 Department.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. It was received by them, we understand, on the 7th.
18 I am just asking you this --
19 A. Normally, those would have been taken up by hand by
20 someone. So I can't say how it was delivered on the 6th
21 and received on the 7th.
22 Q. I don't have the handwritten ones to hand. May I assure
23 you it was made on 6th May?
24 A. No, I don't disagree, but you certainly said it was
25 received on the 7th, and I can't understand that.
106
1 Q. Whatever. It was dated 6th May. I think Mr Marshall
2 gave evidence on the 7th, but we need not quibble about
3 that.
4 A. No, no, no.
5 Q. In any event, I ask you that purely in this context,
6 Mr Bradley, it would appear certainly with Mr Irwin, to
7 his mind, by 6th May, there were a number of people who
8 might be suspects. Would that be -- or who were
9 believed to have been involved in the assaults.
10 A. You are only after highlighting:
11 "There were no known original suspects".
12 Q. That is quite right, and no immediate arrests were made.
13 I will just go through it with you again. I'm sorry:
14 "A number of persons were identified in the area
15 that had 'bleeding' injuries at the time of the incident
16 and are believed to have been involved in the assaults."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Which at first blush looks as if these were people who
19 might be suspects. Do you agree?
20 A. Sorry. I don't follow you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: He is really saying, "There are some people
22 we have our eye on", isn't he?
23 MR McCOMB: Yes. Some people we have our eye on".
24 A. As I recall correctly, was there not three people
25 arrested on 5th or 6th May?
107
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I was off prior to that. I came back the day they were
3 in custody, so there must have been, you know, three
4 suspects on that occasion, on that date.
5 Q. Were you aware of the fact there were perhaps other
6 people who might have been suspected at the time when
7 you went to see Mr Hanvey on the 7th?
8 A. That's when I called at Mr Hanvey's house?
9 Q. That's right, yes.
10 A. What date was the first three people arrested? Was that
11 the 5th or the 6th.
12 Q. The 6th.
13 A. They remained in custody overnight, did they?
14 Q. I think they were released at some stage.
15 A. So your question is?
16 Q. Were you aware -- had you discussed with Mr Irwin, or
17 perhaps some of your other colleagues, potential
18 people -- potential suspects at the time when you went
19 down to see Mr Hanvey?
20 A. I think -- my recollection is that the only suspects
21 that we had were arrested on that 5th or 6th May.
22 Q. Certainly that's your recollection?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. I will move on from that.
25 May I just -- in the context of the visit to the
108
1 Hanvey house, that was Kenneth Hanvey was the father
2 I believe. Is that right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. You went to their house and Allister was not there the
5 first time you called.
6 A. The only time I called.
7 Q. Then you spoke to him the following day?
8 A. That's my recollection, yes.
9 Q. Indeed. I think that appears to be quite right.
10 May I just ask you: you didn't, either in your
11 interviews to the Inquiry, nor, indeed, in your
12 statement, I think at paragraph 40, refer to Mr Hanvey,
13 his demeanour at all? You didn't refer to him being
14 abusive?
15 A. Well, I can recall it very well.
16 Q. Yet you didn't see fit to put that in when you were
17 being interviewed by the Inquiry Panel?
18 A. I wasn't asked.
19 Q. Well, you did deal with the visit to the house?
20 A. Sorry?
21 Q. You did deal with your visit to the Hanvey home. You
22 did deal with it also when it was transcribed onto your
23 statement, which you have adopted, but certainly, when
24 you were interviewed by the Inquiry, you made no mention
25 of Mr Hanvey's being --
109
1 A. Yes, I think that's right, yes.
2 Q. It seems to me that this is the first time, from what
3 I can find, that you have made any allusion to that.
4 A. That's probably correct, yes.
5 Q. Just in relation to the warrant which you made out, that
6 was at the direction of P39, I think -- is that right --
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. -- shortly after Tracey Clarke had finished her
9 interview?
10 A. After the recording of the statement, yes, that's
11 correct.
12 Q. Just again -- I don't want to go over things which have
13 already been dealt with -- you can't explain, or can
14 you, why there -- if what we believe is correct, there
15 was a reference to -- ah, we actually have -- if I may,
16 sir, I have just been handed the warrant to enter and
17 search. Perhaps the witness should be given a chance to
18 look at it?
19 MR UNDERWOOD: It won't come up on the screen yet, because
20 we have not had a chance to take out the address that's
21 on it.
22 MR McCOMB: I will certainly not refer to that. If we may
23 just look at the -- have you had a chance to look at
24 that? Really, I just want to look at the "whereas it
25 appears ... the articles, namely", it looks like
110
1 "trainers and clothing". Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that your --
4 A. That's my writing, yes.
5 Q. That's made out by yourself?
6 A. That's my writing. Yes.
7 Q. Can you give any further light now as to why trainers
8 and clothing is -- you had no further information about
9 what particularly -- any specific items you wanted?
10 A. I made those warrants out -- this warrant out after
11 I was briefed by P39.
12 Q. P39. There was certainly no reference whatsoever to
13 looking for burnt clothing? It is apparent from the
14 face of it you were not aware that any clothing might
15 have been burnt.
16 A. I am not aware of that, no.
17 Q. May I just take you back to the night, then, of the 8th,
18 or perhaps the afternoon of 8th May?
19 Were you present in the station when Mr McCaw -- do
20 you remember Mr McCaw, known as "Squawker", a reserve
21 constable?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. He came into the police office. Isn't that right? He
24 spoke to you briefly.
25 A. I think you could say I physically nearly bumped into
111
1 him in the backyard. He said something, that he may
2 have information about a witness and he wanted to speak
3 to a senior CID officer.
4 Q. It appears he spoke also to Mr McAteer at some stage
5 before speaking to, perhaps, more senior officers?
6 A. I am not aware of that.
7 Q. He didn't say anything further to you? He didn't
8 elaborate on the information he had?
9 A. No. He wanted to speak to a senior CID officer.
10 I walked over to the CID office with him, introduced him
11 to DI Irwin and left.
12 Q. Subsequently then, you went with, as we have heard
13 already, Mr McAteer down to Tracey's parents' house.
14 Isn't that correct?
15 A. I did, yes.
16 Q. On the way down, was there any discussion between you as
17 to what she might be able to furnish you with or give
18 you any information about?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Mr McAteer didn't say, "Well, apparently there is
21 somebody who has given information about Atkinson or
22 Hanvey"?
23 A. I was never made aware of that, no.
24 Q. You didn't discuss that at all?
25 A. It wasn't discussed with me, no.
112
1 Q. Did you then -- the next time really you saw Tracey --
2 did you actually see her when she was giving her
3 interview with Mr McAteer?
4 A. I saw her coming up the stairs and, as I said, she
5 turned right towards P39's office and I never saw her
6 again.
7 Q. No. Indeed. Not again that night or morning?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Just for completeness, did you see Timothy Jameson or
10 Mr Honeyford at all in the police office that night, or
11 morning?
12 A. I probably saw DC Honeyford but I have never seen
13 Timothy Jameson.
14 Q. He was another person who came in to give a statement or
15 whatever.
16 A. Certainly they were not in the CID office end. They may
17 have been in another part of the station, but I cannot
18 recall and I certainly didn't meet him.
19 Q. There were a number of rooms, or a couple of rooms,
20 where interviews might have taken place, as we
21 understand it -- is that correct -- on different floors?
22 A. There was two interview rooms on the ground floor of the
23 main police station --
24 Q. Right.
25 A. -- and there was no interview rooms on our side, but on
113
1 this occasion P39's office was used to interview
2 Tracey Clarke.
3 Q. The next time you really saw Tracey was then when -- did
4 you travel up to Belfast to consult with the DPP?
5 A. I travelled up. I can't recall the date now, but
6 I travelled up with DC Honeyford and -- Jonathan Wright,
7 was it? I think it was Jonathan Wright. We travelled
8 to the DPP's office.
9 Q. Miss Clarke went up as well?
10 A. She was taken up by someone else with.
11 Q. With another group of people?
12 A. I know one person. I don't know any of the others.
13 Q. She wasn't in your company then?
14 A. No. We travelled up -- Jonathan Wright, DC Honeyford
15 and myself travelled up together. Who travelled with
16 Tracey Clarke, I do not know. I know DC McAteer did.
17 Q. Yes, that's right.
18 Now, did you sit in at any part of the interview or
19 the DPP consultation with Tracey?
20 A. I was in the same room, but I had no part to play in it
21 whatsoever.
22 Q. It may not be a question for you, but were you aware of
23 what she had said in her statement? Had you made it
24 your business to examine what was contained in her
25 statement?
114
1 A. I have never seen her statement.
2 MR McCOMB: Then I'll leave that question. Thank you very
3 much.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: We will take our break now. 4 o'clock.
5 (3.45 pm)
6 (A short break)
7 (4.00 pm)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: There seems to be no-one else, Mr Underwood.
9 Forgive me. I am so sorry.
10 Questions from MR DALY
11 MR DALY: Not at all. Mr Bradley, Mr Underwood took you to
12 [08132]. If that could be ... This was the QPF of
13 Mr Allister Hanvey. Is that right?
14 A. Could I just see the first page, please? [08131].
15 That's correct, yes.
16 Q. Have you any recollection of taking that QPF?
17 A. I completed that QPF at the same time I recorded the
18 statement from him.
19 Q. If we just look at question 8:
20 "Is there anything else you would like to add?"
21 Mr Hanvey replied:
22 "I was on my way to my uncle Tom Hanvey's house ...
23 where I stay every Saturday night."
24 Can you recall him giving that answer?
25 A. He must have. I recorded it.
115
1 Q. Well, on 13th March before the Inquiry when asked about
2 this he said he had made a mistake in this regard. It
3 was put to him that it was a lie, but he was adamant
4 that it was a mistake.
5 A. It may have been a lie, but he told me that and
6 I recorded it.
7 Q. Was there anything to suggest to you in his demeanour or
8 his answer that he was maybe mistaken or was unsure in
9 any way?
10 A. I didn't know he had an uncle Tom or anything else. He
11 just told me that and I recorded it.
12 MR DALY: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair?
14 Questions from MR ADAIR
15 MR ADAIR: I just want to briefly clear up, if I can, a few
16 matters with you so we are all clear about what you are
17 saying.
18 Dealing with the transfer from the MIRIAM, whether
19 it was semi-MIRIAM or MIRIAM to the HOLMES system, my
20 understanding is you tell us that would have occurred or
21 been directed on the 8th, the day that Robert Hamill
22 died. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. Within a few hours or a very short time after,
24 yes.
25 Q. Do I understand that physically -- whether it was on
116
1 the 8th or the 9th -- the files are taken to Gough?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. I have no experience of the HOLMES system, but do these
4 operatives then physically sit down and enter the
5 details from the MIRIAM system on to the HOLMES system?
6 A. I am no expert myself, but on the programmes, there
7 would be a programme for messages, statements, actions,
8 everything else and they would physically then type them
9 on to a new sheet each time.
10 Q. Does each document have to be typed on, or was it
11 scanned on in those days? If you don't know, tell us.
12 A. Oh, it was typed on.
13 Q. It was typed on?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At that time, was Gough the centre for HOLMES for the
16 province or just for J Division?
17 A. The main office for HOLMES was in Gough. It was for the
18 southern region, which was from probably -- certainly
19 from Newry right around to Fermanagh, all the border
20 area really. There were about four or five divisions
21 there.
22 Q. So the operatives dealing with HOLMES in Gough were
23 dealing with that area?
24 A. That region.
25 Q. That region.
117
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What's left in Portadown once the files go to Gough?
3 A. Nothing.
4 Q. Are there not -- you are my witness. I don't want to
5 start, but are there not copies of statements kept?
6 I mean, I am just trying to find out what the system was
7 back in those days?
8 A. I am probably wrong in saying that.
9 The MIRIAM forms were, I think, in triplicate. So
10 there may have been copies, yes, in Portadown station.
11 The originals would have gone to the HOLMES room in
12 Gough.
13 Q. Now, you may not be the person to give us a definitive
14 answer. If you don't know, yeah or nay, please say so.
15 It would seem sensible, to put it mildly, that some
16 copies of at least some important statements were kept
17 at Portadown when the main files go to the HOLMES system
18 in Gough.
19 If you can't answer, maybe there is somebody else we
20 will ask about it. Can you help us about that?
21 A. I can't. Sorry.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know, Mr Adair, whether original
23 documents, once they are typed into HOLMES, where they
24 are kept. I don't know if the witness knows.
25 A. Certainly.
118
1 MR ADAIR: Can you help us with that?
2 A. Yes. Once the original documents go to the HOLMES room,
3 the sergeant in charge of the HOLMES room retains those.
4 We never get the originals back until -- if there is
5 going to be a court case or something like that,
6 certainly we will get the originals back. They are
7 under his control and he must account for them all.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Sorry, because I don't
10 understand these things, may I ask, is the HOLMES system
11 a computerised system?
12 A. Yes.
13 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Is there nobody in the
14 Portadown office that can access the computer system
15 that has HOLMES on it?
16 A. We did not have it -- at this period of time, we didn't.
17 A few years later we had a smaller HOLMES set-up in
18 Portadown.
19 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Okay.
20 MR ADAIR: Just to perhaps help on the Baroness's point, so
21 if a document was required from the HOLMES system, did
22 somebody have to go to Gough and ask for it to be
23 printed out back in 1997?
24 A. Unfortunately for this inquiry, yes.
25 Q. Was HOLMES just starting about then? I can't remember.
119
1 A. No. I think -- I remember a murder I dealt with in
2 1989. It was done on the MIRIAM system initially. Then
3 HOLMES came in. When I was doing a file, late 1989, it
4 was being transferred onto the HOLMES, so it must have
5 been late 1989.
6 SIR JOHN EVANS: Forgive me. Wasn't HOLMES front-ended back
7 in Portadown? How would you access the computerised
8 system if you didn't a front-end machine.
9 A. In 1997, we didn't have.
10 SIR JOHN EVANS: 1997?
11 A. 1997, at the time of this murder here, we didn't have,
12 but we did have a room rigged up for the computers,
13 HOLMES system, some time after 1997 and we did run
14 murder incidents, HOLMES system, from that room.
15 SIR JOHN EVANS: Mr Adair, forgive me, if I may.
16 I am not suggesting you have a full HOLMES set-up
17 there. That's back in Gough. I understand that. But
18 to access it, you have to have a machine at your end,
19 not the full system.
20 A. No, I understand.
21 SIR JOHN EVANS: Didn't you have it?
22 A. The room was not equipped for that situation. We had no
23 room equipped, but after this, maybe six months, a year
24 after, we did have a room equipped for our own
25 computers, yes.
120
1 MR ADAIR: Can you help us maybe? Was that exclusive to
2 Portadown or would that have been the position in most
3 of the police stations in the province in 1997?
4 A. Right. Well, I know Banbridge had a room set aside for
5 it. It was a brand new build, so the computerised
6 system, everything was put in for it. I would say
7 Portadown may have been one of the first, you know,
8 really outside Banbridge and Gough. Somebody else may
9 say different.
10 Q. It was one of the first to get the smaller system which
11 could access the larger. Is that what you are saying?
12 A. Well, Lurgan had it. Lurgan had it as well. They had
13 a similar room to us. Outside that, my own area,
14 I can't really speak for the other divisions.
15 Q. Just to -- I think it is clear, but to clarify
16 Sir John's point, you could not then access from
17 Portadown the HOLMES system in Gough?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Now, I want to turn to a totally different subject about
20 CCTVs.
21 First of all, did you know -- you obviously knew
22 Detective Constable Keys.
23 A. Very well, yes.
24 Q. Let me not put words into your mouth. What sort of
25 a detective was he in terms of integrity and hard work
121
1 and so on?
2 A. Don was an experienced officer, one that I had worked
3 with many's the time on numerous murders, and one of the
4 best.
5 Q. I think you will recall the Chairman cleared up with you
6 an issue in relation to two people viewing CCTV. That's
7 really in a scenario where you are identifying people in
8 a riot situation appearing on the CCTV.
9 Do you remember being asked that?
10 A. That's correct, Yes.
11 Q. What I want to ask you is this: was it usual or unusual
12 in 1997 for one experienced CID officer to view CCTV
13 coverage and report back?
14 A. Well, this happened on Monday after the initial
15 incident. Is that right?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Well, I can assure you we had limited staff. It would
18 have been great if we could have had two people doing
19 every job, but most of the jobs we were out doing it on
20 our own.
21 I can presume that there was nobody else available
22 to accompany DC Keys to do this task and that's why he
23 did it on his own.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: As I understood you, it would be if there was
25 something on the tape that you would then get two men to
122
1 look at it to see if they could identify people?
2 A. Well, if you are doing it properly, you know, for
3 a court proceeding and there was a riot situation,
4 certainly two officers would supervise the showing of
5 the video, and normally one showed and one recorded.
6 That's why two people were present, but in this case
7 here --
8 MR ADAIR: The point is we are dealing with a -- we are
9 dealing with the initial viewing here.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What I am asking you is -- forget about looking at
12 a tape to identify people for court proceedings. If you
13 are looking initially -- you seize the tape and you want
14 to see if there is anything on it, was it usual or
15 unusual for one person to do that?
16 A. Oh, one person would have done that.
17 Q. That's the point.
18 A. Sorry.
19 Q. I mean, there are now detailed procedures in relation to
20 the viewing of CCTV tapes and the recording of them on
21 pro formas and so on. Isn't that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The final thing I want to ask you about is the complaint
24 and the warrant, at the risk of the wrath of leading you
25 on this, but just to cut through it, I hope, the
123
1 complaint that is issued is a pro forma, and all it
2 talks about is permission to gain material. I am
3 paraphrasing. Isn't that right?
4 A. Okay, yes.
5 Q. There is nowhere on it to specify what it is that is
6 being looked for?
7 A. On the complaint?
8 Q. On the complaint.
9 A. Could I just have one brought up and look at it?
10 Q. It is at page [73985].
11 A. Yes, I agree with you.
12 Q. It talks about material and talks about the name of the
13 person.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then the next stage is you go down -- the next stage is
16 you must be told by somebody what it is that you are to
17 ask the JP to issue the warrant for. Somebody must tell
18 you what you are looking for?
19 A. P39 briefed me in the early hours of the Saturday
20 morning.
21 Q. I understand. Then you go down to the JP?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Can we assume then, from reading the warrant, you must
24 have told him what you are looking for are trainers and
25 clothing?
124
1 A. I have seen the warrant. That's written on it. That
2 would be explained to him and he would have read it
3 himself.
4 Q. So -- again -- so it must be then that P39 must have
5 either told you -- must have told that you that's really
6 what the warrant should be for, trainers and clothing?
7 A. In that particular case, yes.
8 Q. I hope that just cuts through it as quickly as we can.
9 Sorry, sir?
10 SIR JOHN EVANS: I think it was a misunderstanding earlier.
11 The witness misunderstood the question.
12 MR ADAIR: I think so.
13 REV. BARONESS KATHLEEN RICHARDSON: Sorry. That had also
14 been mentioned, though, in Hanvey's statement in the
15 questionnaire as to what he was wearing. There was
16 a black jacket and the trainers and the -- so that may
17 have been in his mind as well. I am sorry.
18 MR ADAIR: I was just about to ask about that, as to what
19 the practice -- now, if you don't know what the practice
20 would be -- let me pose a scenario for you.
21 Say the police are aware that a suspect may have
22 been wearing a black jacket, blue jeans and white
23 trainers, will they specify those particular items in
24 the warrant or will they simply specify clothing and
25 trainers so as to give them the scope to see whatever
125
1 they want to see
2 A. There is no hard and fast -- I could do it one way, you
3 could do it another way and somebody else do it a third
4 way. There is no -- it is only the way you want to do
5 it yourself. It is open for that.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair, we can see the merit of having
7 a wide ...
8 MR ADAIR: I think it is self-evident, sir.
9 Thank you very much.
10 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I just pick up on something that arose
12 out of that? See if I get this clear.
13 This murder went onto HOLMES, we think, on
14 8th May 1997. Yes?
15 A. That's the date of the murder you are saying?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. The direction was given to open the HOLMES account. The
18 officer in charge who would do physically that would not
19 be available until early next morning. I am not sure
20 what time he started at.
21 Q. Sure. Give or take a day, 8th May.
22 A. Give or take the few hours. The next morning, yes.
23 Q. It wasn't until six months later that your police
24 station had access to view HOLMES. Is that it?
25 A. I wouldn't like to exactly say six months, but certainly
126
1 a period of time after that. I know two, three, four
2 murders after that -- that happened after that,
3 I certainly worked in the incident room in Portadown in
4 the HOLMES room there.
5 Q. Can I then try to work out on a practical basis with you
6 how things happened, you being the receiver?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let's say on 10th May a statement comes in and you
9 wanted to raise actions or somebody wants to raise
10 actions out of it?
11 A. I understand that.
12 Q. How did it go? Did it go off to Gough first and then
13 somebody would have to travel off and look at the HOLMES
14 account in order to raise the action?
15 A. No, no. I would have -- there is a pro forma that
16 I completed. Every document came through me. I would
17 have read it, and if there was ten names in that
18 document, I would have raised actions for all those ten
19 and I did that for every document.
20 Then, after I did that front pro forma -- it was
21 attached to the document I read -- that document would
22 have then been transferred either by myself or a member
23 of the HOLMES team to Gough to input it.
24 Q. But nobody could check?
25 A. Sorry?
127
1 Q. Nobody could check, as it were. Neither the office
2 manager, nor the IO nor the SIO could have an overview
3 from Portadown of what the actions looked like?
4 A. We physically had to go to Gough and view everything
5 over there.
6 Q. So that was completely unwieldy, wasn't it, in terms of
7 somebody having a quick look to see what actions were
8 outstanding?
9 A. Exactly, yes.
10 Q. How did -- practically speaking, what did happen in
11 terms of the office manager, the IO, the SIO? Did they
12 travel over to Gough on a regular basis to have a look,
13 to see how it looked?
14 A. After 9 o'clock conference, some actions would have been
15 directed by the SIO, deputy SIO or someone else. The
16 HOLMES -- sergeant in charge of the HOLMES team or one
17 of his deputies would have made a note of that and would
18 be told there, "You go and issue those right away."
19 So, after the conference is over, he would have took
20 that direct to the HOLMES room, got them actions made
21 out right away and either brought them back or someone
22 from Portadown had to physically go over and bring them
23 back and then issue them to the officers who were going
24 to do the Inquiry.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So, for example, if, at the morning meeting
128
1 of the CID people --
2 A. Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: -- the person in charge decides that, "These
4 are the actions required. Go and see A, B, C and D",
5 would it be possible simply to detail officers at that
6 time to go and see A, B, C and D or would it have to
7 wait until it goes through HOLMES?
8 A. Oh, no, no, no. Mr McBurney or someone else directed
9 an action be raised as well as the HOLMES man would have
10 recorded, "This action must be raised", but myself and
11 somebody else would be sent straight after the
12 conference.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: You would be sent straightaway?
14 A. Oh, he would have directed that, yes.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Let us take this scenario.
16 On 10th May, you have a number of arrests which
17 arose out of Tracey Clarke's statement being given over
18 the course of the 9th and 10th.
19 Nobody is criticising anyone for the speed of those
20 arrests and searches, because within hours of
21 Tracey Clarke giving her statement, you sweep up the
22 people she names and conduct searches.
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. What you wouldn't have had is the ability to look on
25 HOLMES from Portadown to see, for example, what evidence
129
1 you had on HOLMES about what Hanvey was wearing. Is
2 that fair?
3 A. Yes, but certainly I would have been aware of it. I had
4 read the statements. The DI, SIO and others would have
5 been aware of that. Certainly we had no physical access
6 to HOLMES in Gough. I thought that was clarified now
7 before.
8 Q. Of course. It was much worse, wasn't it, that it was on
9 HOLMES than that it was on MIRIAM?
10 A. Oh, not at all, no.
11 Q. But surely if you had had MIRIAM acting on -- in place
12 on 10th May, there you would have had a file with, on
13 the file, for example, Warnock's statement saying
14 "Hanvey was wearing a jacket with grey sleeves"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You had nothing of that when you had -- I say "you" --
17 the officers had nothing of that on the 10th when you
18 had to go and search Hanvey's house?
19 A. No, but if you asked me the question, "What was Hanvey
20 wearing?" or something like that, by using the HOLMES
21 system, I'd put in the name Hanvey. Every time his name
22 is mentioned, a document will come up. So I could read
23 25 documents in maybe 25 minutes, whereas, under the old
24 MIRIAM system, you could spend hours and hours looking
25 for one document.
130
1 Q. That's all very well if you were at Gough on the morning
2 of 10th May before you briefed the searchers, isn't it?
3 That's the problem.
4 A. I didn't brief the searchers.
5 Q. No, but we got some impression from you of the urgency
6 of all this, because you told us you had this JP
7 standing by until 2 o'clock in the morning when he signs
8 the warrant off.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Things were going like mad over the night of the 9th and
11 10th May, weren't they?
12 A. No, I was just sitting there waiting on a direction
13 and --
14 Q. There was lots --
15 A. -- it was a lot slower than I expected or was led to
16 believe it would happen.
17 Q. There was lots of activity. That is what I'm getting
18 at. You had to get these warrants, you had to find
19 search teams. People had to brief the search teams.
20 A. My concern was I wouldn't have these warrants signed.
21 I am going to have fifty men doing a search and ten
22 detectives to interview people and no prisoners. That
23 was my concern.
24 Q. All right. So my question is: who did it? Who was it
25 who found the time over the night of 9th to
131
1 10th May 1997 to go to Gough, search through HOLMES to
2 see what records you had --
3 A. I already explained that we had no access to Gough
4 during that night. We had no access until 9 o'clock the
5 next morning. DI Irwin would have had documents. He
6 have would have had it in his head. He did that
7 briefing. He would have had his own personal books,
8 diary or whatever else he had and he had his own -- he
9 was aware of everything that was going on regarding the
10 Inquiry.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: That's extremely helpful. Thank you very
12 much.
13 SIR JOHN EVANS: Can I just finalise it in the sense, did
14 you have access to fax machines?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 SIR JOHN EVANS: Did you transfer stuff by fax to Gough?
17 A. No, no.
18 SIR JOHN EVANS: You didn't?
19 A. No.
20 SIR JOHN EVANS: Okay. Thank you.
21 A. Everything was done by hand physically.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you ring up Gough and say, "Will you
23 find out so and so for us?" and get them to tell you
24 over the telephone?
25 A. Oh, yes, yes.
132
1 THE CHAIRMAN: That was permitted, was it?
2 A. Oh, yes.
3 SIR JOHN EVANS: If it was open.
4 A. Well, roughly their hours of operation would have been
5 8.30 in the morning until probably 10 o'clock at night
6 for the first week or so. After that, it would have
7 gone down a bit, but certainly not at 2 o'clock in the
8 morning.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much indeed.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Bradley.
13 Mr Wright then, please.
14 I am not going to ask you to rise while Mr Wright is
15 being called for. There will be some technological
16 adjustments being made.
17 MR DARREN PAUL WRIGHT (sworn)
18 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Wright, good afternoon.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
22 I have some questions, a very few questions for you to
23 start with. It may well be there will be some
24 follow-ups.
25 What are your full names, please?
133
1 A. Darren Paul Wright.
2 Q. Thank you. If we could have a look at page [81302], we
3 see the first page of a statement. Can I ask you to
4 keep your eyes on the screen while we scroll through
5 this briefly?
6 Is that your witness statement?
7 A. It is, yes.
8 Q. There is one matter I want to draw your attention to at
9 page [81303]. In the final paragraph there you say that
10 some contemporaneous notes are at pages 16232 to
11 16238.
12 A. Indeed, yes.
13 Q. That may have been the case when you signed this, but
14 can I just get you to look at page [16232] on our
15 system? It is obviously not manuscript notes. Are they
16 the notes that you refer to there?
17 A. Yes, they appear to be, yes.
18 Q. All right. Thank you very much indeed. Apart from --
19 including that then, is this statement true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Can we just have a look at
22 paragraph 18 of your statement, which is at
23 page [81305]? Paragraphs 18 through to 20 inclusive.
24 We are talking here about the interview of Michael McKee
25 at which you were present?
134
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You start off at the top of paragraph 18 by saying:
3 "The interview stays in any memory for a number of
4 reasons."
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. "McKee presented himself on the day, in my opinion, as
7 a broken man resigned to his fate."
8 You go on to talk about his body language and so on.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. In paragraph 19 you say:
11 "I was not in a position to comment in depth about
12 the investigation, but I was not convinced about his
13 selective memory when answering some of the questions.
14 Although he had obviously made his mind up, when
15 confronted at the beginning of the interview, to admit
16 his involvement in telling lies about the phone call, he
17 relied on his loss of memory to avoid some of the
18 questions put to him."
19 Then in paragraph 20, second sentence, you say:
20 "The admission by Michael McKee appeared to be
21 straightforward when he realised the weight of the
22 evidence against him and, to my knowledge, there were no
23 inducements made in order to obtain his confession."
24 Now, there is a question mark over Mr McKee and
25 whether he has made a false confession --
135
1 A. I see.
2 Q. -- of something for which he was, in fact, not guilty.
3 Bearing in mind what you have said here that he
4 struck you as defeatist, a broken man, troubled with
5 alcohol, not entirely straightforward, can you help us
6 with what your overall impression was at the end of the
7 interview about whether he was, in fact, confessing to
8 something he had done?
9 A. If you appreciate, my position in the interview was in
10 an observing capacity, I would say I had more
11 opportunity perhaps than the officers conducting the
12 interview to watch Michael McKee during the interview
13 and observe his body language.
14 As I said in my statement I think -- yes,
15 paragraph 18 -- physically he was a large man.
16 I learned through the interview process that he was
17 involved in martial arts, but the whole manner of his
18 presentation didn't strike me as particularly imposing
19 or confident in any way, and I formed the view -- my
20 opinion was that the evidence being presented to him was
21 presented in such a way that he had no room for
22 manoeuvre, if you wish to use that terminology.
23 Q. We know that he had trouble, a lot of trouble, with
24 alcohol --
25 A. Uh-huh.
136
1 Q. -- in the late 1990s. There is a suggestion that, for
2 whatever reason, his wife falsely admitted to entering
3 into a conspiracy with him and with others, and that's
4 the conspiracy about which he was being interviewed.
5 What's being suggested is that his wife, having
6 falsely admitted it herself, the evidence that was put
7 to him was false --
8 A. I see.
9 Q. -- and that he, being a broken-down drunk, could do
10 nothing about it except admit it.
11 Do you see what the position being asserted is?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you assist on whether you think that's a possibility
14 from your observation?
15 A. I think it probably is a possibility, yes. Uh-huh.
16 Q. That's what you mean, is it, when you say that it was
17 the strength of the evidence against him that, as it
18 were, overbore him?
19 A. No. I think that the -- he had obviously been arrested
20 earlier that morning, an unpleasant enough experience
21 for anyone. He had been arrested that morning. He had
22 come in for interview. There had been some delay in
23 arranging those interviews because of the obtaining of
24 legal representation. After a very few moments at the
25 beginning of the interview, he sought a consultation
137
1 with his solicitor.
2 Now, from what I can recall, he had already had
3 a consultation with his solicitor. So clearly the very
4 commencement of the interview was causing him some
5 issues that he wished to discuss with her. A short
6 break was had and then the evidence was gone through.
7 Now, this was 2001. The main evidence I can
8 remember that was presented was the telephone billing
9 and the accounting for various phone calls. So my
10 assessment of him was that the evidence was fairly
11 compelling and that it was presented in a thorough and
12 professional manner during the interview -- he didn't
13 give me any cause for concern certainly -- and that he
14 chose to admit his role in the conspiracy from what
15 I can recall.
16 Q. All right. Forgive me.
17 A. Can I just have some water? Is that okay?
18 Q. Of course. I am so sorry. I know we kept you waiting
19 for three or four hours. I do apologise for that.
20 A. That's fine.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Those are the only questions I have for you.
22 It may be others have some more.
23 MR ADAIR: No questions.
24 Questions from MS DINSMORE
25 MS DINSMORE: Good afternoon. My name is Dinsmore.
138
1 I represent Mr and Mrs Eleanor Atkinson.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Now, I appreciate you had joined the Ombudsman's Office
4 some months previously, about six months before this.
5 You had joined in November of 2000 --
6 A. Yes, uh-huh.
7 Q. -- in, really, a role as an investigating officer in the
8 department or the body of the Independent Commission for
9 Police Complaints; that you would regularly be present
10 at interviews where, sadly, there are persons who suffer
11 from very real troubles and difficulties; that you see
12 a lot of vulnerable persons during the course of the
13 investigations in relation to complaints against the
14 police?
15 A. I wouldn't particularly agree.
16 Q. You wouldn't?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, had you ever met -- had anyone interviewed anyone
19 before who had had alcohol problems?
20 A. Quite possibly.
21 Q. But you can't -- it is just, you know, what I want to
22 know is explore a little bit about this sticking out in
23 your mind, and, therefore, I want -- because we are not
24 going to have the benefit of speaking with or observing
25 Mr McKee.
139
1 A. I see.
2 Q. Really you can assist us in two ways. One is that you
3 can tell us about the extent of the observation of how
4 broken a man this was that you were looking at.
5 Is paragraph 18 of your statement which my friend
6 has referred to a fair representation?
7 A. Sorry.
8 Q. If we can call it up, [81305].
9 A. Yes, I have it here, yes. From my memory, that's
10 accurate, yes.
11 Q. And not only -- so his physical presentation was one of
12 vulnerability?
13 A. I think so, yes.
14 Q. His physical presentation was one of a person who is
15 defeated, perhaps even by himself, or by a system or by
16 his relationships or by his addictions?
17 A. Yes, he clearly had problems in his life, yes.
18 Q. He was open and frank about those problems?
19 A. Yes, yes. He did talk about his use of alcohol. He
20 talked about his failing business and I think he talked
21 about his relationship with his wife.
22 Q. With his wife?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It is not a useful use of the Inquiry's time to go
25 through chapter and verse of the many admissions or
140
1 statements that he made, because those will be matter
2 for submission for my Lady and the Panel, but is it fair
3 to say that an accurate representation will be found, as
4 said in paragraph -- call up [21010].
5 If we just outline the third paragraph there, isn't
6 it quite clear that you were observing a man who was
7 answering questions in the context:
8 "Look, honest, this is what I was like and I was
9 pissed, absolutely, more than three-quarters pissed all
10 the time".
11 That he was coming and saying, "I can't sort of
12 recall how it happened, all that was going on with my
13 wife. We weren't sort of going through very good -- we
14 weren't having a very good patch and I would say most
15 days I was more than three-quarters pissed all the
16 time."
17 Yes?
18 A. Sorry. What was your question?
19 Q. My question is: (a) he said that, and (b) did you think
20 he was making that up, or that man was telling you what
21 his life was like at that time?
22 A. He said that, as it is on the transcript.
23 Q. I want to just tease out from you then, did he say that,
24 in your mind, as a measure of deceit or making an excuse
25 or was that him saying a genuine representation of what
141
1 his state of mind was and the implications it would have
2 on his recall?
3 A. I think either is equally likely. I put in my statement
4 that my own opinion -- however, this was only based on
5 my one meeting with Michael McKee and my observations
6 during interview -- I think I phrased it I was not
7 convinced about his recall, when I think, during the
8 interview he could be very specific about certain areas
9 of his life and very vague about others.
10 However, I will say I am no expert on alcoholism or
11 how it affects Michael McKee. So I think either is
12 equally likely.
13 Q. I am obliged for that. Although you say it was only
14 once, in fact, there were three different interviews
15 recorded, one beginning at 11.40, one beginning at 13.04
16 and one at 4.30?
17 A. During the day.
18 Q. During the course of the day.
19 A. Uh-huh, yes.
20 Q. Then we come to his raison d'etre for being there. You
21 cannot recall whether you were briefed before 10th April
22 about the background of this, that it was you were
23 reporting up to Mr Chris Mahaffey --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- and when you got there to Armagh on that day, you
142
1 were told, "You are doing the Michael McKee interviews"?
2 A. That was pretty much the way of it, yes.
3 Q. You are unclear in relation to the background that you
4 were briefed with at that stage?
5 A. Yes. I knew the case was being supervised by
6 Mr Mahaffey. I had no involvement or knowledge of the
7 case up until that point. I was given a very clear role
8 on the day.
9 Q. It was a very specific role: no active part. Make sure
10 there is no sort of foul play. Observe. Take notes and
11 report?
12 A. Yes. That's correct.
13 Q. Now, when you went -- the raison d'etre was to explore,
14 or was understood to explore, whether or not a statement
15 which had been made by Mr McKee was, in fact, true.
16 That was the outset. That was the first question.
17 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Now, when this man comes in with his solicitor, when he
19 is asked about that, paragraph 11 of your statement
20 makes it clear he doesn't really know how to answer that
21 question, it would appear, and he asks for a brief
22 consultation with his solicitor?
23 A. That's my memory, yes. Uh-huh.
24 Q. If I suggested to you then that, for whatever reason --
25 and there will be submissions in due course to the
143
1 Inquiry of this -- for whatever reason, one thing is
2 clear, that when this man came in with a solicitor to
3 that interview, there was not clear clarity in his mind,
4 "Look, I am here to say that I told lies about that
5 statement". He says, "Look, I don't know how to answer
6 that. I want to speak to my solicitor".
7 Wouldn't that appear to be the case?
8 A. I don't know what Michael McKee was thinking, to be
9 honest.
10 Q. But what we do know is he couldn't give a straight
11 answer to that when asked. He said, "I need a break
12 before we move on."
13 A. What we do know is he needed a consultation with his
14 solicitor, yes.
15 Q. Then during the course of the entire interviews, isn't
16 it correct to say that you would agree that the
17 transcripts are totally accurate of the words spoken?
18 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And that on many occasions during the course of those
20 interviews, he refuted a number of matters which were
21 put to him, for example, whether or not there was
22 a meeting in relation to what occurred in the home of
23 Mr Atkinson allegedly, etc. There is many a time he
24 says, "I can't remember that. No, that didn't happen".
25 Those will be matters for us to analyse and present to
144
1 the Inquiry, but you can confirm what's contained in
2 those are what he said?
3 A. As best I can recall, yes.
4 Q. You also confirm -- and these are matters for Detective
5 Sergeant H and J, because they are the actual
6 interviewers.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. But you can confirm that the level of probing and what
9 they presented was, in fact, what occurred also?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I think you have helpfully summed that up by saying they
12 were doing their job and they had this gentleman before
13 them and this gentleman, we now know from your evidence
14 his persona, his problems, his defeatism. He was faced
15 with evidence being presented in the form of written
16 telephone billing, etc, and that your view was that the
17 man in those circumstances felt he had no room for
18 manoeuvre.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Those are the words you used earlier today?
21 A. They are, yes, uh-huh.
22 Q. So, therefore, whatever admissions he made in those
23 statements, he made those admissions in the context of
24 the broken man that you observed, and in the context of
25 the nature of the evidence presented, a view could be
145
1 taken by someone there was no room for manoeuvre. Isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. That is a view that could be taken, yes.
4 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is up to you now.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Wright.
9 A. Thank you.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 tomorrow.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you.
13 (4.45 pm)
14 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am tomorrow morning)
15
16 --ooOoo--
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 I N D E X
2
3
MR CHARLES DONALD ANDREWS (sworn ) ............... 1
4 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Questions by MR McGRORY ................... 7
5 Questions from MR O'CONNOR ................ 15
Questions from MR ADAIR ................... 16
6 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD ....... 17
7 MR WILLIAM ALEXANDER STEWART (sworn) ............. 18
Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 19
8 Questions from MR WOLFE ................... 25
Questions from MR McGRORY ................. 28
9 Questions from MR O'CONNOR ................ 32
10 MR DERECK MATTHEW BRADLEY (sworn) ................ 37
Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 37
11 Questions from MR McGRORY ................. 66
Questions from MR MALLON .................. 83
12 Questions from MR McCOMB .................. 105
Questions from MR DALY .................... 115
13 Questions from MR ADAIR ................... 116
Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD. ...... 126
14
MR DARREN PAUL WRIGHT (sworn) .................... 133
15 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 133
Questions from MS DINSMORE ................ 138
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
147
