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Hearing: 12th March 2009, day 27
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 12 March 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 27
1 Thursday, 12 March 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. I recall Mr Wright.
4 MR JONATHAN WRIGHT (continued)
5 Questions by MR McGRORY
6 MR McGRORY: Mr Wright, I want to ask you some questions on
7 behalf of the Hamill family.
8 A. Okay, yes.
9 Q. I think you understand, Mr Wright, the importance of
10 these proceedings, this tribunal?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It has been brought about really principally because of
13 a great deal of public disquiet over the events that
14 night and the fact that nobody was brought to account
15 for the murder of Robert Hamill, although your then
16 friend Marc Hobson, of course, did spend four years in
17 prison -- oh, well, two, on a four-year sentence for the
18 offence of affray. But nobody has been made amenable
19 for the murder.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And one of the reasons why there is great disquiet about
22 that is that, firstly, there was a police Land Rover at
23 the scene more or less and there is public disquiet as
24 to why the events weren't stopped in time to prevent the
25 murder and why the police who were present weren't able
1
1 to identify those who had killed Robert Hamill. That is
2 one of the major issues. And there are other issues
3 concerning the proceedings that followed in terms of the
4 decisions that were taken and the conduct of the
5 investigation and so forth. So I think you would
6 understand, Mr Wright, why people would be concerned
7 about that?
8 A. Yes, obviously, yes.
9 Q. Now, I want to make it clear to you before I ask you any
10 more questions that I'm not going to put to you for one
11 moment that you are one of those who was involved in the
12 murder.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, indeed, I'm going to say to you now that I don't
15 put you in the class of person that would be even
16 capable of committing murder. Do you understand that?
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. That you are a fundamentally decent person and that it
19 is that fundamental decency that has put you between
20 a rock and a hard place. Do you understand that, what
21 I'm saying?
22 A. Yes, I guess so, yes.
23 Q. Well, I'm going to spell out for you what the rock and a
24 hard place is, okay? Now, I'm going to suggest to you that
25 when you were first spoken to by Detective Constable
2
1 Honeyford, he made that observation about your character and
2 that he asked to speak to you again within a few days.
3 He asked you to come back because he had a hunch
4 that you hadn't been fully forthcoming with him when he
5 first spoke to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that you would be more forthcoming if he spoke to
8 you again, being the experienced and wily police officer
9 that he is, and that when you did speak to him on
10 15 May, you did tell him the truth?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And that it is your fundamental decency, Mr Wright, that
13 led you to tell him the truth on 15 May?
14 A. No, that is not correct.
15 Q. But some time later it became apparent to you that what
16 you had said unwittingly put your friend Marc Hobson in
17 trouble. Now, will you accept that at some point after
18 15 May and before the public hearings in Marc Hobson's
19 trial, you were made aware that what you had said
20 created a major difficulty for him?
21 A. I don't know. I don't understand. How do you mean,
22 there?
23 Q. Marc Hobson was your friend?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were with him that night. You have already said he
3
1 was a friend?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you made a statement to the police constable on
4 15 May which named a number of individuals?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Stacey Bridgett being one of them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Marc Hobson was one of them?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And Rory Robinson was one of them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said things about Stacey Bridgett and
13 Rory Robinson that didn't necessarily say that you had
14 observed them murder Robert Hamill, but that they were
15 involved in the fighting. Rory Robinson was running
16 about like a headless chicken. And that in respect of
17 your friend, Marc Hobson, you made the disclosure that
18 you hadn't made a few days previously, that he had run
19 down towards the fighting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But you told the policeman on 15 May that you didn't see
22 what he was doing, but he was down there?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Do you remember, that's in your statement?
25 A. Yes.
4
1 Q. Well, that, I'm suggesting to you, didn't necessarily
2 implicate him in the murder, it just put him down there?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Do you understand that?
5 A. I think I know what you mean, yes. I didn't actually
6 see him fighting or --
7 Q. No, you didn't actually make an allegation against
8 Marc Hobson on 15 May, sure you didn't?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You are agreeing with me that you didn't make an
11 allegation against him that he was involved in the
12 murder?
13 A. I'm agreeing that I said that I didn't see him fighting
14 or kick anyone.
15 Q. I'm suggesting to you that that was not you saying my
16 friend Marc Hobson was involved in the murder because
17 I saw him doing something to Robert Hamill, you just put
18 him in the area of the fighting; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm saying to you that you didn't necessarily see that
21 as implicating him on 15 May?
22 A. I can see what you mean, yes.
23 Q. Yes. It didn't occur to you on 15 May that what you had
24 just said to the police constable did him any serious
25 harm in respect of the charge of murder. Do you
5
1 understand?
2 A. Yes, I understand what you are saying, yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you agree? Looking back at your state of
4 mind, do you agree that you didn't regard yourself in
5 the second statement you made as having put Mr Hanvey in
6 difficulty?
7 A. Mr Hanvey?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hobson rather, forgive me.
9 A. Yes, I understand what you are saying, yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Was your state of mind this: that having made
11 that second statement, you didn't regard yourself by
12 making that statement as having put Hobson in
13 difficulty?
14 A. But that second statement I made isn't the truth. It
15 was made under -- during police pressure.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not what I'm asking you.
17 A. I don't understand what you mean, sorry.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think that if that statement became
19 evidence, it would put Hobson in difficulties?
20 A. I didn't think so, no.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what you were being asked. Just
22 a moment.
23 MR McGRORY: But at some point subsequent to 15 May,
24 Mr Wright, you became aware that that might have been
25 a problem for him, did you not?
6
1 A. I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean that
2 someone approached me, or ...?
3 Q. You have already said that you visited Mr Hobson in
4 prison?
5 A. Yes, that's true, yes.
6 Q. On a number of occasions?
7 A. Yes, a few times, yes.
8 Q. Now, you did say that the case wasn't discussed.
9 A. Yes, that is true.
10 Q. Is that the truth?
11 A. It is the whole truth, yes.
12 Q. Now, are you saying that during those prison visits in
13 the first few months after you made the statement on
14 15 May, that he wasn't aware you had made a statement
15 at all?
16 A. I don't know what Marc thought. It was never discussed.
17 It was never brought to my attention.
18 Q. No, so if you didn't discuss it with him, you didn't
19 tell him you had made a statement?
20 A. No, I didn't tell him.
21 Q. At some point, he did become aware that you had made
22 a statement; isn't that right?
23 A. I don't know. I was never approached by Marc or
24 approached by anybody.
25 Q. You see, he did tell this inquiry in an interview about
7
1 a year and a half ago, two years ago, that he did become
2 aware you had made a statement when he got his papers?
3 A. Well, I don't know if he was or not.
4 Q. No. We will talk to him about that a little bit later,
5 but I'm suggesting to you that you were made aware by
6 him --
7 A. No, that is not true.
8 Q. -- or members of his family that there was a statement
9 in those papers that caused him a serious difficulty?
10 A. No, that is totally false. Nobody ever approached me,
11 nobody ever threatened me, nobody intimidated me. It
12 was never discussed at any point.
13 Q. Are you absolutely certain that there was no contact
14 between you and Mr Hobson about this case in the months
15 after 15 May, before his committal proceedings, which
16 took place in April 1998?
17 A. Absolutely positive.
18 Q. But you have said you visited him in prison. Would you
19 have been in telephone contact with him?
20 A. Well, Marc would have telephoned me if there would have
21 been maybe a mid-week visit on and maybe his parents
22 were going down and he maybe had one or two free spaces
23 for that day. Marc would have telephoned me to say did
24 I want to go down, there were two free spaces. Did
25 I want to go down.
8
1 Q. Was he aware at any time that you were called for
2 consultation with the Director of Public Prosecutions'
3 office?
4 A. I have no idea.
5 Q. You remember of course that consultation
6 in October 1997?
7 A. Is this the one at Craigavon court, sorry? I know I was
8 down twice, I just don't remember the dates.
9 Q. Tell me about the one in Craigavon court?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You had a consultation with the DPP then, did you?
12 A. At Craigavon court, yes.
13 Q. Was this at the time of the committal proceedings
14 in April 1998? Let me put it this way -- it is a bit of
15 legalistic language: A committal hearing, let me
16 explain to you, is a preliminary hearing in a criminal
17 case when the defence are entitled to ask witnesses to
18 be called to give evidence.
19 A. Okay, yes.
20 Q. You were one of a number of witnesses that Mr Monteith,
21 who represented Mr Hobson in 1998, asked to give oral
22 evidence at Craigavon court. Do you remember that?
23 A. I don't remember that, sorry.
24 Q. Do you not remember being asked to attend Craigavon
25 court on 29 April 1998?
9
1 A. The only time I was asked to attend Craigavon court was
2 to visit the DPP.
3 Q. Visit the DPP?
4 A. Yes, about getting my second statement retracted.
5 Q. You see, your retraction statement is dated
6 13 March 1998.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. It was taken by a certain police officer, whose name I
9 will not mention --
10 DS Bradley
11 A. Yes, that is true, yes.
12 Q. Was that statement taken in Craigavon courthouse?
13 A. It was, yes.
14 Q. It was? Why the courthouse?
15 A. I have no idea. That was just where it was arranged for
16 me to attend.
17 Q. Just how was that arranged? Did you phone and say you
18 really needed to make a statement?
19 A. I'm almost certain it was done over the telephone, yes.
20 Q. Now, was that not in the context of you being called to
21 give evidence -- had been notified that you were needed
22 to give evidence in the committal proceedings?
23 A. No, I didn't know anything about that.
24 Q. You didn't know anything about that?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So you were never summoned as a witness?
10
1 A. I was never approached by anybody, no.
2 MR McGRORY: You see, Mr Monteith did write and ask that you
3 be called to give evidence, but you were never notified
4 about that. Is that your evidence?
5 A. Yes, that is true, yes.
6 Q. So there was someone from the DPP present then, when you
7 made in statement on 13 March 1998?
8 A. I'm nearly certain there was, yes. I can remember Constable
9 Bradley being there and a few other individuals.
10 Q. There were other individuals. Now, can you help us at
11 all as to who might have been present from the DPP's
12 office? Was it a lawyer, a solicitor, a barrister or
13 something?
14 A. I can't say for certain. I don't remember who exactly
15 was there. I just remember DS Bradley being there and I think
16 there was three other individuals. They were all
17 sitting together on a table of four -- four.
18 Q. Okay. Well, I'm going to come to this statement of
19 13 March a little bit later on. What I want to ask you
20 about is the first meeting you had with the DPP. You
21 have already given some evidence about this, Mr Wright.
22 It was on Friday, 17 October in the Deputy Director's
23 office in Belfast?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You do remember that?
11
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You spoke about that yesterday and that is the meeting
3 to which -- you know, I think two policemen brought you
4 to that meeting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, also in attendance at that meeting was
7 Gordon Kerr QC who was the senior Crown prosecutor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And a detective superintendent and another policeman who
10 brought you to the consultation. Now, I think I will
11 have that page on the screen, please. It is [17591].
12 That was at 3 o'clock -- just the very top two
13 paragraphs?
14 A. Yes, I see it, yes.
15 Q. That was a 3 o'clock on a Friday afternoon, 17 October.
16 Did you tell anybody at all that that meeting was
17 scheduled?
18 A. No, no one.
19 Q. Are you absolutely certain you didn't tell any of your
20 friends in the prison -- who were facing trial for the
21 murder of Robert Hamill -- that you were called to speak
22 to the DPP?
23 A. Absolutely certain.
24 Q. Absolutely certain?
25 A. Positive, yes.
12
1 Q. Now, at that meeting, the second paragraph, the last
2 sentence, it says:
3 "However, while in a statement he refers to his
4 friend Marc as being involved in the fighting ..."
5 And it is arguable that you did:
6 "... during consultation he describes him as pulling
7 people out of the fight."
8 Now, you were asked about this yesterday?
9 A. I can see that, yes.
10 Q. And it was suggested to you yesterday that in fact you
11 were trying to put a good light on what Marc Hobson had
12 done, in that he was down there pulling people out. Do
13 you remember that?
14 A. I don't remember what actually I said yesterday.
15 Q. We will hear from Mr Kerr and the others who were
16 present at this meeting, but there were a number of
17 eminent lawyers at this meeting, including Gordon Kerr,
18 senior counsel, including a solicitor for the office of
19 the Director of Public Prosecutions?
20 A. I think as I said yesterday, that this was an event that
21 I have very, very little recollection about.
22 Q. I just want to ask you a little bit more about it.
23 Including a detective superintendent and a detective
24 sergeant?
25 A. Who would that be?
13
1 Q. I'm not going to mention their names and I do not want
2 you to either, but they are in the very top paragraph of
3 this note.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Now, all of these people were present when it was
6 recorded that you described Marc Hobson as pulling
7 people out of the fight.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Now, would you accept that they are unlikely to be
10 inaccurate about that?
11 A. Well, I couldn't say for sure.
12 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you did say that at that
13 consultation?
14 A. Well, I don't remember saying it.
15 Q. And that the purpose of saying it, Mr Wright, was to put
16 a better light on what you had said Marc Hobson was
17 doing. Do you understand me?
18 A. I can see your point, but yet again I don't remember
19 saying that.
20 Q. Because it might have dawned on you when you got to this
21 meeting that they were interested in you because of what
22 you had said about Marc Hobson, ironically, and not
23 because of what you had said about Stacey Bridgett or
24 Rory Robinson?
25 A. Okay.
14
1 Q. Did that occur to you on 17 October 1997?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I'm suggesting to you that it is likely that it did?
4 A. Well --
5 Q. You have no recollection of it?
6 A. As I said yesterday -- I'll say it again -- this is
7 something I have very, very little recollection about,
8 actually being at this DPP meeting.
9 Q. I'm going to ask you once more before I show you another
10 document, whether or not those in the prison and in
11 particular Marc Hobson knew you were going to go and see
12 the DPP on 17 October 1998?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Okay? Now, did they or did they not?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Might they have?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: That doesn't give rise to a meaningful
18 answer.
19 MR McGRORY: No. Could I have, please, page 21212? This
20 is a document which records a number of phone calls,
21 Mr Wright made from the prison to your home.
22 A. Okay, yes.
23 Q. Between 22 June --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You said Mr Wright, do you mean Mr Hobson?
25 MR McGRORY: These were a number of phone calls made from
15
1 the prison, HMP The Maze, to your home, Mr Wright.
2 A. Okay, yes.
3 Q. My apologies. Between 22 June 1997 and 21 October 1997.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Now, you don't dispute that these calls were made to
6 your home?
7 A. I know Marc was calling me, yes, I admit that, yes.
8 Q. Now, there are a number of columns to this. There is
9 the first column that we can read is the date. The
10 second column is the time, the third column suggests the
11 duration of the call?
12 A. Okay, yes.
13 Q. And then it says:
14 "Calling out from HMP The Maze, xxxxxxxxxx Wright."
15 That would be your father. Is that right?
16 A. It is, yes. That is correct.
17 Q. Now, towards the end of these calls, there are a series
18 of calls on 17 October 1997?
19 A. Okay, yes.
20 Q. You see those?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There is one at eight minutes past 18, there is another
23 one at 13 minutes past 18, there is another one at 22
24 minutes past 18, there is another one at 35 minutes past
25 18. Now, they are all short calls.
16
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Is it likely that perhaps they didn't reach you?
3 A. It is quite possible, yes.
4 Q. Somebody tried to get you from the prison four times on
5 the evening of the consultation that you had with
6 Mr Kerr and others. Do you see that?
7 A. I can see the dates, yes.
8 Q. I'm suggesting to you that that is no coincidence,
9 Mr Wright?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. That, in fact, probably Marc Hobson knew that you had
12 that consultation and was very, very anxious to know
13 what you had said?
14 A. Well, I have no idea whether Marc knew or not.
15 MR GREEN: I wonder what the basis for that question is:
16 probably Marc Hobson probably trying to find out
17 information. I'm just wondering whether there is any
18 proper basis for a question like that.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I think there is. It is a proper question
20 and the witness can deal with it.
21 MR GREEN: The witness never received the call.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That is how he deals with it, it depends on
23 his recollection. But he can deal with it in one way or
24 another by saying he did or he didn't receive the call
25 or he remembers the call and this is what was talked
17
1 about. It is a perfectly proper question.
2 MR GREEN: I have no difficulty with the witness being asked
3 for his recollection of whether he received the call,
4 but the question being put in the terms of what the call
5 was about and what it would have been containing in
6 terms of conversations or a desire to have
7 a conversation, I don't think there is a factual basis
8 for putting that at all, sir.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I hear you, but Mr McGrory will no doubt be
10 making submissions to us later and it is only right that
11 Mr Wright should have the opportunity to deal with them.
12 MR GREEN: As I understand it, he has dealt with it by
13 saying he didn't receive the call. Mr McGrory, in my
14 submission, isn't entitled to put what the purpose of
15 the call is and what the content of the call might have
16 been.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: He is entitled to press him and to suggest
18 what the call was about.
19 Yes, carry on, Mr McGrory.
20 MR McGRORY: Perhaps it would help if I asked you a couple
21 of questions about with whom you were friendly amongst
22 those in the prison.
23 A. Okay, yes.
24 Q. You have already said that Marc Hobson was your friend?
25 A. He was, yes.
18
1 Q. And that you weren't particularly close to
2 Allister Hanvey?
3 A. Not as close as I was to Marc.
4 Q. Of those who were imprisoned in the Maze at that time,
5 would it really only have been Mr Hobson who was phoning
6 you?
7 A. Stacey could have called, again, to -- maybe he wanted
8 to know could I go down for a visit, that he had a free
9 space maybe that day. If I would have been called, it
10 would have been from Marc definitely and Stacey
11 possibly. Stacey could have called.
12 Q. So we can narrow it down to those two?
13 A. Yes, I'm almost certain no one else would have called.
14 Q. And of the two, the most frequent caller would have been
15 Marc?
16 A. I would say that was true, yes.
17 Q. Well, after that series of calls on 17 October, there is
18 one on the 18th?
19 A. Okay, yes.
20 Q. At 11.29 in the morning. And if the column suggesting
21 the duration of these calls is accurate, that lasted for
22 11 minutes?
23 A. Okay, yes, I can see that.
24 Q. So somebody in your house spoke to somebody in the
25 prison for 11 minutes, the day after the consultation?
19
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. This would have been a Saturday morning?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Do you remember the call?
5 A. No.
6 Q. No recollection of it whatsoever?
7 A. No, none.
8 Q. Are you being honest about this, Mr Wright? Can we take
9 it that consultations in the High Court with senior
10 counsel in the run-up to a murder case would not be
11 something that you would have engaged in too often in
12 your life?
13 A. Sorry, I don't understand the question.
14 Q. Sorry, I complicated the question. Have you ever had
15 cause to go and visit the DPP in the High Court building
16 or thereabouts in the context of a murder case before?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. And never again?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So I take that that is something that would stick out in
21 your mind?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that somebody from the prison with whom you were
24 friendly -- we have narrowed it down to either
25 Stacey Bridgett or Marc Hobson -- I'm suggesting to you
20
1 had been very keen to talk to you on the previous night,
2 the 17th?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. On the day of the consultation?
5 A. I can see that yes.
6 Q. And did speak to you the following morning?
7 A. I can see that, yes, 18 October, yes.
8 Q. I'm suggesting to you that it is a virtual certainty
9 that on the morning of Saturday, 18 October you told
10 whoever you were speaking to in the prison about the
11 consultation the previous evening?
12 A. I have absolutely no recollection of that call or what
13 it was about.
14 Q. And that you would have been anxious to let that person
15 know, particularly if it had been Marc Hobson, if you
16 had told the DPP that you had been pulling people out of
17 the crowd rather than doing anything wrong?
18 A. As I have said, I don't remember this phone call or what
19 it was about or anything. I'm sorry, I have already
20 stated this.
21 Q. Very well.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Just so that we understand, the fact that
23 a call is shown at all means that it was connected,
24 I take it? In other words, the telephone was answered
25 however briefly?
21
1 MR McGRORY: Unfortunately, I have raised this matter with
2 Inquiry staff in the last couple of days. We cannot be
3 certain whether or not the 12 minutes, 17 minutes -- or
4 seconds, means that the call was actually answered or if
5 it was just a ringing tone. I would hazard to suggest
6 that it means it was a brief conversation.
7 A. It could have been a call to arrange a visit. Again,
8 you know, as I say, I just can't recall the telephone
9 call. It is 12 years ago, you know.
10 Q. It could have been your father who answered, couldn't
11 it?
12 A. He lived there, yes.
13 Q. And if you weren't in, he would have said you
14 weren't in?
15 A. I'm sure he would have, yes.
16 Q. So you probably weren't back from the consultation?
17 A. On the Saturday morning.
18 Q. I'm talking Friday evening here. The consultation was
19 in Belfast at 3 o'clock?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Presumably it took a little time and you had to get back
22 home. You see there were four calls within the space of
23 under 30 minutes?
24 A. I can see those, yes.
25 Q. So I'm suggesting somebody was pretty keen to talk to
22
1 you?
2 A. I can see that by the calls, yes.
3 Q. Do you agree with me that if it had simply been the
4 matter of a visit, a simple message could have been
5 passed on, "He can come up Tuesday or Wednesday"?
6 A. Probably, yes.
7 Q. That would have been sufficient?
8 A. I guess so, yes.
9 Q. So whoever was ringing was very keen to speak to you?
10 A. I can see that, yes, by the four calls.
11 Q. That they were anxious to speak to you for a reason
12 other than simply to pass on a message about a visit?
13 A. Well, I'm not sure if my father knew that I was actually
14 going down to the Maze, so Marc might have wanted to
15 speak to me himself.
16 Q. Would your Dad not have approved of you going down to
17 the Maze, Mr Wright?
18 A. I'm not sure, to be honest. I couldn't speak for what
19 he would have thought about it. I don't think he would
20 have been totally happy about it.
21 Q. No, I would say he was anxious about all of this, to
22 have learnt that you were out that night and close by
23 these events, was he not?
24 A. On 17 October?
25 Q. No, I'm going back to the incident in which
23
1 Robert Hamill was beaten and subsequently died of?
2 A. Okay, yes.
3 Q. I would say he wasn't happy about you being there that
4 night, your Dad?
5 A. I never really spoke to him about it.
6 Q. Would your father not have been anxious to learn that
7 you had been in and about the scene of a murder,
8 Mr Wright?
9 A. Yes, he would have been, yes.
10 Q. Particularly given his position?
11 A. Understandably he would have been concerned. I was his
12 son. It is only human nature.
13 Q. I'm sure he brought you up, Mr Wright, as someone who
14 would have had respect for those of another religion?
15 A. Yes, that is true, yes.
16 Q. And as someone who ought not to have been involved in
17 any sort of sectarian shenanigans?
18 A. Okay, yes.
19 Q. And that the events in Portadown that night would have
20 been pretty notorious as events which had led to the
21 death of a Catholic by a Protestant crowd?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that your father would have been
24 anxious to know that you were even close by those
25 events?
24
1 A. That is understandable, yes.
2 Q. Would he have been unhappy about you being out drinking
3 at 2 in the morning?
4 A. He knew that I was drinking around that time anyway,
5 yes.
6 Q. You were still pretty young, you were 18. Were you 18?
7 A. 18/19. I don't remember for sure.
8 Q. But your answers a bit earlier to me suggested that he
9 might not have been terribly happy about you going down
10 to the prison?
11 A. I think it is one thing knowing that I was drinking and
12 another thing knowing that I was going down to the Maze
13 prison to visit people. I think that is totally
14 different.
15 Q. I'm asking you these questions, Mr Wright, because this
16 is part of the rock and a hard place that you find
17 yourself in. Do you understand me?
18 A. Not particularly, no.
19 Q. Well, you have told the police constable on 15 May that
20 you saw more than you had originally told him you had
21 seen?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And I'm suggesting you told him the truth on that
24 occasion?
25 A. No, that is wrong.
25
1 Q. But down the line, your contact with Marc Hobson and
2 perhaps Stacey Bridgett in the prison has made you
3 realise that these guys are in a lot of trouble. You
4 realised that much?
5 A. It was never discussed when I was down at the prison,
6 any of these events.
7 Q. You knew they were in trouble, they were facing a murder
8 charge?
9 A. I knew that, of course.
10 Q. And that the consequences of a conviction would have
11 been a life sentence?
12 A. I would imagine so, yes.
13 Q. Did they not even express their concerns about that?
14 A. It wasn't something that would have come up with the
15 conversations.
16 Q. Are you serious about that answer, Mr Wright?
17 A. I have told you, yes.
18 Q. What I'm suggesting to you, Mr Wright, is that in fact
19 what these phone calls were about on 17 October and
20 18 October were about what you might have said at the
21 DPP consultation. Do you understand me?
22 A. Yes, I understand what you are saying, yes.
23 Q. Now, events moved on then a few months and into the New
24 Year in 1998, the committal proceedings loomed for
25 Mr Hobson and others. I have explained to you what that
26
1 was: It is a preliminary hearing before a major trial?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Before a Crown Court case. In this jurisdiction still
4 a defendant is entitled to have called to those
5 proceedings a witness to give evidence on request?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. And that is, indeed, what Mr Hobson's solicitor did at
8 that time.
9 Could I perhaps have page [28226], please? This is
10 a letter, Mr Wright, from Richard Monteith, Richard
11 Monteith's office, to the department of the
12 Director of Public Prosecutions dated 18 March 1998.
13 And the purpose of the letter is to request that amongst
14 other things concerning disclosure, a number of
15 witnesses appear at the preliminary enquiry which was
16 scheduled for 20 April 1998. And chief amongst those
17 witnesses who were called to give evidence by
18 Mr Monteith is you?
19 A. Yes, I can see that, yes.
20 Q. Yes. Now, this is 18 March 1998 and a letter is written
21 asking that you be brought to Craigavon court on
22 20 April 1998 to give evidence at the committal
23 proceeding?
24 A. I can see that letter, yes.
25 Q. Now, are you saying still that you have no recollection
27
1 of having been notified that you were due to give
2 evidence on that date?
3 A. I didn't know, no.
4 Q. No idea?
5 A. No, none.
6 Q. You see, I know you are not necessarily familiar with
7 the procedures and so forth, but in order for
8 Mr Monteith to write that letter, he needed to have had
9 the papers by then --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- to have worked out that you had said something on the
12 papers that you needed to be asked questions about?
13 A. Okay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we know if at that date a date had been
15 fixed for the hearing?
16 MR McGRORY: The date appears to have been fixed for
17 20 April and, indeed, it took place on 20 April. The
18 letter suggests --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I can see it now.
20 MR McGRORY: R v Rodney Paul Marc Hobson.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see it now.
22 MR McGRORY: 20 April. And indeed -- I will be coming to
23 this in a moment -- the proceedings did take place on
24 that date.
25 A. Okay.
28
1 Q. But in fact you didn't give evidence?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Because you would remember that and we would know about
4 it. And I'm suggesting to you that the reason you
5 didn't give evidence is because by then your third and
6 final statement had been made?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. And that is indeed your withdrawal statement. Could
9 I have that on the screen, please, [17295]?
10 Now, before I ask you to look at this statement,
11 Mr Wright, you should know that Marc Hobson has already
12 told the Inquiry that when he got his papers, he was
13 horrified when he saw your statement of 15 May?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. And he in fact spoke to you about it. He has already
16 told the Inquiry this. Do you understand?
17 A. If that is what he said, yes, okay.
18 Q. He was horrified. In fact he said that after all of
19 this, the relationship between you and him more or less
20 ceased?
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Have you seen much of him?
23 A. When do you mean?
24 Q. Well, did you see much of him after he got out of
25 prison?
29
1 A. I don't think so, no. I don't recall.
2 Q. So you will agree that the friendship that the two of
3 you had up until these events ended, basically?
4 A. Because of ...?
5 Q. Because of is another matter, but really your friendship
6 ceased, you didn't remain pals, you didn't see him after
7 he got out of prison you have just told us?
8 A. I don't recall if I seen him once he got out of prison,
9 I don't remember.
10 Q. If you never saw him again, which incidentally is what
11 he said about you, do you agree with me that your
12 friendship ended?
13 A. I can see what you mean, yes.
14 Q. Friendships end for all sorts of reasons, some drift
15 away?
16 A. Of course, yes.
17 Q. Some people have rows, but sometimes something happens
18 between people that causes a division between them?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And ends the friendship. Do you agree with me that what
21 happened in the context of this case and the statement
22 that you had made on 15 May damaged your friendship with
23 Marc Hobson?
24 A. I can see what you mean, yes.
25 Q. In fact, you told the Inquiry that he never wanted to
30
1 see you again after this?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. This is part of the rock and a hard place, Mr Wright.
4 Because you are here today to give evidence to this
5 Inquiry. This is the first time you have been asked to
6 give evidence under oath?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Now, when you came into the witness box yesterday
9 afternoon, you probably heard the Chairman say that
10 another witness had been referred to the police asking
11 that the police investigate that he had committed
12 perjury yesterday?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Did you hear that on the news last night?
15 A. No.
16 Q. This morning?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You heard it yesterday?
19 A. I heard it briefly mentioned, yes.
20 Q. Because whatever you have said to the police in terms of
21 giving conflicting statements -- you made three
22 statements and they conflict with each other -- those
23 statements were not made on oath. Do you understand
24 that? They weren't sworn on the Bible?
25 A. When I was making those statements?
31
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I understand what you mean now, yes.
3 Q. Even though you signed the statements and there would
4 have been a declaration on the statement that you were
5 telling the truth?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. That to tell an untruth on a statement is one thing, but
8 to tell it on oath to a judicial inquiry is an entirely
9 different thing altogether. Do you understand that?
10 A. I guess so, yes.
11 Q. In fact there are very serious consequences for someone
12 who is found by a court to have told an untruth on oath.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. It is a specific criminal offence.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it is the criminal offence of perjury.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And it is a criminal offence, Mr Wright, that almost
19 invariably attracts a prison sentence.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Do you understand that?
22 A. I'll take your word for it, yes.
23 Q. Now, you are represented today by solicitor and counsel.
24 Before I proceed, do you want an opportunity to speak to
25 them?
32
1 A. I don't understand.
2 Q. I'm just explaining to you that to tell an untruth to
3 a judicial inquiry, if that is found by another court,
4 is a very serious criminal offence that invariably
5 attracts a prison sentence.
6 A. Okay, yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to speak to your solicitor and
8 counsel to seek advice about your position? It is
9 a matter for you.
10 A. Yes, okay.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. We will rise for a few minutes,
12 yes.
13 (11.14 am)
14 (Short adjournment)
15 (11.25 am)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
17 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir. You have had some time to
18 consider your position, Mr Wright?
19 A. Yes, I had a chat with my representatives, yes.
20 Q. Just on the issue of your representative, Mr Wright --
21 I'm not going to ask you what was discussed there or
22 what has previously been discussed there; do you
23 understand that?
24 A. That is fine.
25 Q. But most of those who are suspected of being involved in
33
1 this murder were represented by Richard Monteith at the
2 time, including Marc Hobson, and most of them remain
3 represented by Richard Monteith?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. You are represented by a certain firm of solicitors --
6 I'm not going to mention the name.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. You know who they are. Mr Hobson changed his
9 representation from Mr Monteith to the same firm of
10 solicitors that represents you today.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Were you aware of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. No. Okay. Does that change your view about anything?
15 A. Nothing, no.
16 Q. That is all right. Now, you told us earlier that you
17 hadn't discussed with your father --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- these events?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At any time?
22 A. Never, I told no one.
23 Q. You told no one. Could I have page 09140 on the
24 screen, please? This is the last page of the statement
25 you gave to the police on 11 May 1997.
34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The statement that you now tell us was the truth.
3 A. Yes, that is true, yes.
4 Q. And that the 15 May statement wasn't the truth?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see what the last line of that says?
7 A. I can see, yes.
8 Q. "My da was sitting in the living room and I told him
9 what I had seen down town"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, Mr Wright, have you just told us a lie when you
12 said that you had never discussed this with your father?
13 A. All I told him was that something had happened down
14 town, that was it. I didn't discuss with him what I had
15 seen, where I was standing, nothing like that. I just
16 told him that there had been something that had happened
17 down town and there was police involved. That is it.
18 Q. That is not what you told the police on 11 May. You
19 said:
20 "My da was sitting in the living room and I told him
21 had a I had seen down town."
22 Now, you had seen a serious incident involving
23 fighting; isn't that right?
24 A. I don't understand what you mean.
25 Q. Your statement of 11 May describes an incident in town?
35
1 A. Okay, yes, yes.
2 Q. Where there had been some fighting. Do you agree with
3 me on that?
4 A. I agree with you, but I didn't tell my father that.
5 Q. Well then, that statement that you made on 11 May isn't
6 accurate?
7 A. I just told him that something had happened down town.
8 There had been a skirmish or whatever. That was it. I
9 didn't tell him what my role was there, what I had seen.
10 Q. Now, we have moved from you having told him there was
11 just an incident but not the nature of it, to having
12 told him that there was a skirmish?
13 A. Possibly I could have told him that, possibly.
14 Q. Isn't it the truth, Mr Wright, that you went in and you
15 told your father what had happened, there that was
16 a fight in town?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, you have just said you might have told him there
19 was a skirmish?
20 A. Possibly, yes. I can't remember for sure what I told
21 him. I told him something had happened down town where
22 there was police involved.
23 Q. When I asked you a few moments ago were you absolutely
24 sure that you had not discussed this incident with your
25 father, you said that you were.
36
1 A. I don't know what line you are taking here. I don't
2 know what do you mean, what I told him.
3 Q. I'm telling you that you told this tribunal a lie,
4 Mr Wright, when you said you had never discussed this
5 incident with your father.
6 A. I don't know what else to say. It says here:
7 "My da was sitting in the living room and I told him
8 what I had seen down town."
9 Q. That was a lie when you said you didn't discuss it with
10 him at all?
11 A. I don't know what else to say, I'm sorry. I told you
12 what I have said.
13 Q. It is not the only lie you are telling us, Mr Wright,
14 okay? Remember you are on oath.
15 Now, you have also told us before you had the
16 opportunity to take legal advice that you didn't discuss
17 this case at all with Marc Hobson.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Isn't that right? And, indeed, the circumstances in
20 which you came to have made a statement and then
21 retract it?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Is that still your evidence?
24 A. It is the truth, yes. I never spoke to anybody about
25 it. I was never approached by anybody about it. I've
37
1 never threatened anybody about it.
2 Q. Not even persuaded or cajoled?
3 A. I told you, never.
4 Q. When said yesterday that when you spoke to the policeman
5 on 15 May, he pressured you, is that right?
6 A. Yes, that is true, yes.
7 Q. In fact you were about to go on holiday?
8 A. On the Saturday morning, yes.
9 Q. And he suggested to you that you might not be getting
10 the flight; is that right?
11 A. In roundabout terms, yes.
12 Q. And that was the reason why you made that statement on
13 15 May, because you felt under this pressure?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. That your girlfriend would be left alone heading off on
16 the holiday?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you made the statement to please him?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you clearly remember that that is the basis on which
21 you were pressured into making this false statement on
22 15 May?
23 A. I felt I had been put under pressure.
24 Q. Specifically because the holiday?
25 A. No, it wasn't just that. He was alleging that I was --
38
1 that I had withheld information, that he knew that I was
2 closer to this incident than what I had said.
3 Q. But the holiday was a feature of it, wasn't it?
4 A. Of course, yes.
5 Q. And you say you didn't impart this to Marc Hobson at any
6 time during the prison visits and phone calls?
7 A. I told you before, no, never.
8 Q. And then of course you and he haven't spoken since?
9 A. That is true, yes.
10 Q. When Marc Hobson was interviewed by this inquiry, he
11 told them the following -- it is on page 17 of his
12 inquiry interview, the top of the page. Now, we can't
13 show it to you on the screen, I am afraid, but I'm going
14 to tell you what he told the Inquiry.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. He told the Inquiry that that 15 May statement was a lie
17 and that his understanding was that you were going on
18 holidays.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And that the cops brought you in, that you had told the
21 truth and then they put you under a lot of pressure.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And that you were young and naive.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. But the most significant part of that is that he told
39
1 the Inquiry that he knew that you had been pressurised
2 on 15 May because you were going on holidays?
3 A. Well, Marc would have known that I was going on
4 holidays, yes.
5 Q. Did he not know --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: It is the connection between the two that you
7 are being asked about. Do you follow?
8 A. I don't understand.
9 MR McGRORY: Let me explain to you --
10 A. A lot of people would have known that I was going on
11 holidays on Saturday morning.
12 Q. Yes, but Mr Hobson was interviewed about this in the
13 last two years and he was able to tell the Inquiry that
14 the reason why you made a statement on 15 May, in which
15 you mentioned him, that wasn't true --
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. -- is because you were pressurised by a policeman
18 because you were going on holidays. That was the
19 pressure. Do you understand that?
20 A. Yes, I can see what you mean, yes.
21 Q. He couldn't possibly have known that unless you had told
22 him that that was the reason you had made the statement?
23 A. Well, I have no idea about that.
24 Q. Think very carefully.
25 A. Marc would have known that I was going to holidays, yes.
40
1 Q. But what I'm suggesting to you is there is no
2 conceivable way Marc Hobson could have known that the
3 reason you were saying that statement was pressurised
4 from you is that because you felt under pressure because
5 of the holiday unless you had told him?
6 A. Well, I have no idea why he is saying that.
7 Q. What I'm suggesting to you, Mr Wright, is that that is
8 evidence of contact between you and Mr Hobson?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Not just any contact, but specific contact concerning
11 the reason how you came to make that statement on
12 15 May?
13 A. There was never any contact. I have told you this
14 before. There was never once, at any point, contact.
15 Q. And that the reason why you said that about the holidays
16 is that was your only way of wriggling out, when
17 confronted by Marc Hobson, of the fact that you had made
18 a statement that put him in trouble?
19 A. No, you are wrong.
20 Q. Very well. Now, are you still maintaining to this
21 inquiry, Mr Wright, that when you visited Marc Hobson,
22 you didn't discuss this case?
23 A. Yes, I told you that, yes.
24 Q. On the same page of the interview that he had with the
25 Inquiry, Mr Hobson told the Inquiry interviewer that:
41
1 "I did not even know that he had said this. He had
2 actually come to visit me with my mother and father."
3 A. Yes, that's true, I went down with Marc's parents.
4 Q. "Six months later down the line I got my papers and
5 realised, and I couldn't believe it."
6 Do you understand that? He got his papers and he
7 couldn't believe it?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. That you had said this. Now, are you still suggesting
10 that he didn't make contact with you once he discovered
11 to his horror that you had made a statement that put him
12 down near the fighting?
13 A. I told you that, yes.
14 Q. And that he actually made representations to you to
15 rectify the situation?
16 A. That is wrong, that is false. I never spoke with Marc
17 about it. I never spoke with anybody about it.
18 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Wright, that around about the
19 time that the papers were issued in this case, which
20 would have been around about early March, certainly
21 before Mr Monteith wrote his letter, Mr Hobson realised
22 to his horror that you had made a statement that put him
23 down round about the fighting?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. And that no matter what good intentions you had about
42
1 telling the DPP on 17 October that he was pulling people
2 out, that didn't help him. Do you understand that?
3 A. Okay, yes.
4 Q. And the reason it didn't help him was because he said he
5 wasn't down at the fighting at all?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. And that you had contradicted him?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. That what you had said didn't suit his defence?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. And that, indeed, is why Mr Monteith wrote on 18 --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: That isn't something the witness can deal
13 with.
14 MR McGRORY: No.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: He is not privy to Mr Monteith's idea of how
16 committals should be conducted in a particular case.
17 MR McGRORY: Yes, I accept that, sir.
18 Can I turn then finally, Mr Wright, to your
19 withdrawal statement on 13 March 1998. It is [17295].
20 A. I mean, what you were trying to say is that I've just
21 been trying to withdraw this statement from March. I
22 had been calling the police for months before that.
23 Q. You were cross-examined extensively about that yesterday
24 and I'm not going to repeat those questions, Mr Wright.
25 A. Okay.
43
1 Q. You were cross-examined yesterday extensively about the
2 ridiculous suggestion that you were ringing the same
3 policeman --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You seem to be doing --
5 MR McGRORY: Sorry, okay.
6 Can we turn to the statement that I want to ask you
7 about. This is your withdrawal statement on
8 13 March 1998.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. The timing of this is no coincidence, Mr Wright, I'm
11 suggesting to you. It comes around about the time that
12 the papers would have been issued to Mr Hobson in the
13 prison. Do you understand that?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. It comes only a few weeks before the committal
16 proceedings. Do you understand that?
17 A. Okay, yes.
18 Q. And I'm suggesting to you that Marc Hobson was pretty
19 desperate to make sure that your statement was removed?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And that, in fact, it was subsequently removed from the
22 papers after you made this statement?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Do you understand?
25 A. Okay.
44
1 Q. And that as a consequence of making this statement, you
2 weren't actually needed to give evidence because you
3 were no longer a threat. Do you understand that?
4 A. Okay, yes.
5 Q. But I want to just look at the wording of this
6 statement, Mr Wright, particularly the words:
7 "At the time I made it up as I was afraid ..."
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. "I now know that it is known by others in Portadown what
10 I said in the second statement, and because of that
11 fact, I am not prepared to give evidence in court."
12 Now, there is a lot of information in that sentence?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. But let's begin with the first few words:
15 "At the time I made it up as I was afraid ..."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, who were you afraid of?
18 A. The police officer.
19 Q. "... and I now know that it is known by others in
20 Portadown what I said in the second statement and
21 because of that fact, I'm not prepared to give evidence
22 in court."
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Is it not the case, Mr Wright, that what you are really
25 saying here is that you were afraid because people knew
45
1 what you had said?
2 A. I didn't know that. That was made aware to me at that
3 day.
4 Q. Are you not expressing in this sentence the reason why
5 you had come to see this police officer on
6 13 March 1998; is that not why you were there?
7 A. The reason I was there was to withdraw the statement.
8 Q. But the reason you are giving for withdrawing the
9 statement is that (a) you had been afraid, perhaps at
10 the time you made it, but the second reason you are
11 giving is the reason for withdrawing the statement, and
12 that is that people in Portadown know you had made the
13 statement of 15 May?
14 A. Well, I didn't know that.
15 Q. But you have just said that is why?
16 A. But that was brought to me. That was -- they asked me
17 why I was withdrawing the statement.
18 Q. Let's just get this clear here. The second part of this
19 sentence expresses the reason why you wanted to withdraw
20 the statement. Do you understand?
21 A. Not really.
22 Q. Well, I'll just read it out to you once more:
23 "I now know that it is known by others in Portadown
24 what I said in the second statement, and because of that
25 fact, I'm not prepared to give evidence in court."
46
1 So you are saying that the reason you are not
2 prepared to give evidence is because others in Portadown
3 know you made the statement?
4 A. Well, I didn't know that.
5 Q. Yes, but you had to know it to say it?
6 A. As I told you earlier, that was brought to my attention
7 that day, the DPP and -- can I say his cipher?
8 Q. You can say his cipher, yes.
9 A. Constable Bradley had asked me was I afraid.
10 Q. Well, that is a simple question which begged a simple
11 answer: yes or no. Isn't that correct?
12 A. I said no.
13 Q. Are you suggesting that the policeman put those words in
14 your mouth, that others in Portadown knew that you had
15 made the statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that you should withdraw it?
18 A. No. I don't know what you mean.
19 Q. Are you suggesting that the policeman offered you
20 a reason for making a withdrawal statement?
21 A. He was asking me why was I doing it.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you explained?
25 A. I told him that the second statement wasn't true.
47
1 Q. And then you also discussed why you were withdrawing it
2 and not giving evidence in court?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And the reason you gave him was that people in Portadown
5 had found out you had made the statement?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. I'm suggesting that you told him that.
8 A. No, that is false. That is not true.
9 Q. Are you suggesting that the policeman who wrote this
10 down made that up or put those words in your mouth?
11 A. He had asked me was I afraid of people in Portadown, in
12 the community, and I told him no.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment.
14 MR McGRORY: Let's leave aside for the moment the question
15 of whether or not you were afraid and look at the reason
16 you gave as to why you were afraid. Do you understand
17 me?
18 This is on 13 March 1998, not when you spoke to the
19 other police constable on 15 May 1997. Let's talk about
20 13 March 1998.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. And the reason why you said you were afraid then to give
23 evidence in court. Do you understand me?
24 A. Not really, but ...
25 Q. Let's get the first premise established. You are
48
1 accepting that on 13 March you told the police that you
2 were afraid to give evidence in court?
3 A. It says that there, so yes.
4 Q. It doesn't just say it there. You just told it to us
5 a moment ago that the policeman asked you on 13 March
6 were you afraid, and you said --
7 A. Afraid of whom?
8 Q. Well, this is the question.
9 A. I wasn't afraid of anybody but the police officer.
10 Q. I'm talking about 13 March because what this says is:
11 "I now know it is known by others in Portadown what
12 I said, and because of that fact, I'm not prepared to
13 give evidence."
14 A. I can see that, yes.
15 Q. So you are not prepared to give evidence because people
16 know what you had said previously?
17 A. I wasn't prepared to give evidence because of a false
18 statement.
19 Q. That is not what you said to the policeman. I'm putting
20 that to you.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. You see, you have signed this statement, "signature of
23 witness Jonathan Wright". Do you see that?
24 A. I can see it, yes.
25 Q. At the top of the page there is a declaration that what
49
1 you are saying is true to the best of your knowledge and
2 belief. Do you see that?
3 A. Okay, yes.
4 Q. So you signed this, Mr Wright?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what you told the policeman was that because people
7 in Portadown knew you had made this statement, you
8 weren't prepared to give evidence?
9 A. I didn't know that.
10 Q. Yes, but you had to know it --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, what didn't you know?
12 A. I didn't know that others in Portadown was aware. That
13 was brought to my attention that day.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pause there. Yes.
15 MR McGRORY: You see, I'm suggesting to you, Mr Wright, that
16 when Marc Hobson got his papers in the prison, he was
17 horrified, as he said.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. And that he at least told the others in the prison who
20 were co-accused with him on the murder charge -- you
21 can't necessarily answer that, but that word got out --
22 do you understand me -- that you had made this
23 statement?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. And that you were a witness against one of these people.
50
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Sometimes referred to as the Portadown Six. That
3 doesn't mean anything to you? But that you were very
4 concerned that word had got out that you were
5 a prosecution witness against one of these people?
6 A. I didn't know that, I told you that before. I didn't
7 know that.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: When did you say you learned it? On the day
9 you made --
10 A. On 13 March, yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Who told you?
12 A. The people at the meeting. It seemed as though they had
13 known that others in Portadown had known. I hadn't
14 a clue. I didn't know. I had never spoken to anybody
15 about it. Nobody had approached me about it. It wasn't
16 discussed, I wasn't threatened, I wasn't intimidated. I
17 don't know what else I can say.
18 MR McGRORY: I am afraid, Mr Wright, we are going to have to
19 speak to the policeman about it when he comes to give
20 evidence.
21 A. That's fine.
22 Q. But I'm suggesting to you that under no circumstances
23 would he have told you that people in Portadown knew you
24 had made this statement?
25 A. Well, that is what happened on that day.
51
1 Q. So your evidence is that the only reason that is in that
2 part of the sentence is because he told it to you that
3 day?
4 A. Yes, because they knew. How they knew, I don't know.
5 Q. Then did you just make up your mind on the spot that
6 that was a reason why you didn't want to give evidence,
7 because they knew?
8 A. I don't know what you mean by that.
9 Q. You have offered it -- firstly, there is the information
10 that people knew. You are saying you only found it out
11 on 13 March?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I'm suggesting to you that is a lie?
14 A. The reason that I give, as it says here --
15 Q. No, can we deal with one question at a time. I'm asking
16 the questions now. Let's deal with the circumstances in
17 which you found out that people knew -- do you
18 understand me?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- in Portadown that you had made a statement. It is
21 your evidence that you only found that out when you got
22 to Craigavon court on 13 May?
23 A. That is what I told you, yes.
24 Q. Sorry, 13 March. That was another reason -- is this
25 your evidence today -- not to give evidence?
52
1 A. No, the reason was, as I have said here, the first
2 statement of 11 May 1997 is the correct statement. The
3 second statement that I have given is not correct.
4 Q. You see, you have offered it as a reason for not giving
5 evidence. Do you see that? That is the plain meaning
6 of that sentence?
7 A. Maybe that's just how it was worded, I don't know.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Will you tell us in your own words why you
9 weren't prepared to give evidence?
10 A. Because I had given a statement that wasn't true.
11 I have said this -- I think it is the third or fourth
12 time that I have said this.
13 MR McGRORY: The problem is there is a second reason that
14 you have offered in the statement of 13 March concerning
15 a fear, I suggest, because people in Portadown knew what
16 you had done.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: With respect, that is slightly unfair. If
18 one reads that sentence, it starts with:
19 "I made it up as I was afraid ..."
20 There is no reference to a fear of giving evidence,
21 and to be fair to the witness, the premise of the entire
22 reason for withdrawing is it's a false statement.
23 A. Yes, that is the correct reason, yes.
24 MR McGRORY: With respect, sir, the sentence is disjointed
25 and there is a second part to it. There should have
53
1 been a full stop after "afraid", but there is not.
2 But --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have got to be careful we don't
4 try and construe this sentence as though it were an Act
5 of Parliament.
6 MR McGRORY: Well --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: You are going to ask the officer when he
8 gives evidence about it too.
9 MR McGRORY: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You have asked the witness and he has said he
11 wasn't prepared to make a statement, or rather to give
12 evidence, because he had made an untrue statement. Yes?
13 A. And that is the only reason.
14 MR McGRORY: I'm going to suggest to you that in fact there
15 was another reason that you were afraid of giving
16 evidence of the contents of your statement on 15 May.
17 Do you agree with that or not?
18 A. No. There was only one reason and I have told you that
19 reason.
20 Q. And that there was another reason, Mr Wright, in
21 addition to that and that was that whatever was left of
22 your friendship with Marc Hobson would have been utterly
23 destroyed had you proceeded to give the evidence of the
24 statement on 15 May. Do you understand the question?
25 A. I see what you are saying, yes.
54
1 Q. You were trying to make amends for the damage that you
2 had done to Marc Hobson and that the only way of making
3 amends was to turn up on 13 March 1998 and withdraw the
4 15 May statement?
5 A. That's not true.
6 MR McGRORY: Very well.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: May we just see, please, page 21212, the
8 list of telephone calls. Is there another page or is
9 this the only page, Mr Underwood?
10 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry. It is the only page that has
11 been made available to us and which we can get.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You see, it may be informative to know
13 whether these telephone calls continued after
14 21 October.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: We have asked the PSNI.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mrs Dinsmore?
17 Questions by MS DINSMORE
18 MS DINSMORE: Just one question: in 1997 would you have
19 a telephone answering machine in your home?
20 A. I'm certain that there would have been, yes.
21 Q. So there would have been the telephone answering
22 machine?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So the telephone answering machine could click in and
25 the call would be connected then; it would only be
55
1 connected to a telephone answering machine?
2 A. There would have been a message left, yes.
3 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.
4 Questions by MR GREEN
5 MR GREEN: I ask questions on behalf of Marc Hobson,
6 Mr Wright, and it was suggested that the reason and the
7 only reason behind you making that statement on
8 13 March 1998 was to make amends for the harm you had
9 done in the second statement, and that was one of the
10 last questions that was asked of you. Do you remember
11 that question?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Assuming that to be the position and you did make amends
14 by that third statement on 13 March 1998, what in fact
15 happened between you and Mr Hobson in terms of the
16 relationship that you had? Did it come back on board,
17 were you there and then friends thereafter?
18 A. I think we had just drifted apart over the months.
19 Q. It didn't mend any difficulties that there was between
20 you, did it?
21 A. Well, if you are asking me am I friends today with Marc,
22 I haven't seen him in a long time. So that is all I
23 can say.
24 Q. Have you seen him since the time he was committed to the
25 Crown Court to stand trial?
56
1 A. I can't say for sure, I don't know.
2 Q. Have you seen him as a friend recently, or in the last
3 ten years?
4 A. Socialising or just --
5 Q. As a friend in any circumstances?
6 A. I don't think so, no.
7 MR GREEN: Thank you.
8 Questions by MR BERRY
9 MR BERRY: Can you hear me, Mr Wright?
10 A. Yes, I can, yes.
11 Q. I want to put a proposition to you and ask for your view
12 on it. What do you say to the proposition that
13 Allister Hanvey didn't know you in 1997?
14 A. Well, he did know me.
15 Q. Yes. You are clear about that, aren't you?
16 A. Yes, positive.
17 Q. And why are you clear about that?
18 A. Well, I had known him from school.
19 Q. Which schools did you go to, or school?
20 A. Well, I didn't know Allister until I went to
21 Killicomaine Junior High School.
22 Q. Yes. And was he in the same year as you?
23 A. I'm pretty certain, yes.
24 Q. Would you have knocked around with him at school?
25 A. Not so much, no.
57
1 Q. But you would have known him?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. In or around 1997, you would have socialised together on
4 occasions, wouldn't you?
5 A. Sometimes, yes, not all the time. He wasn't a close
6 friend.
7 Q. You would have gone to pubs on occasion?
8 A. I don't think I would have arranged to meet Allister.
9 He would just have been in the pub. I would have come
10 in and would have seen him, yes.
11 Q. Would you have been in his company in pubs?
12 A. Sometimes, yes.
13 Q. Which pubs?
14 A. Gary's Bar was one that I can remember.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I think that is probably it.
17 Q. What about clubs?
18 A. Sometimes I would see him in the Coach nightclub, yes.
19 Q. What about since 1997? Have you had contact with
20 Allister Hanvey?
21 A. I seen him at a funeral a few years ago.
22 Q. Did you recognise him?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you say hello?
25 A. I think I just put my hand up.
58
1 Q. Did he acknowledge that?
2 A. I think so, I'm pretty sure, yes.
3 Q. There was nothing about his demeanour towards you --
4 A. I did not have a conversation with him, if that is what
5 you are asking.
6 Q. I didn't ask you that. There was nothing about his
7 demeanour towards you that suggested that he didn't know
8 who you were?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you are clear you were with him on 26 and
11 27 April 1997?
12 A. Positive, yes.
13 Q. Yes. In his company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Went to, as you have said, Dean Johnston's flat?
16 A. That was the party flat, yes.
17 Q. Can I ask you this: Do you know his uncle,
18 Thomas Hanvey?
19 A. No, I have never met him.
20 Q. Do you know whether your father knows Thomas Hanvey?
21 A. I couldn't say for sure. I don't think so.
22 Q. Were you ever asked about a telephone call that was
23 received at your home?
24 A. Yes, I was asked about it, yes.
25 Q. At 9.46 -- this is in the morning time -- of April 1997
59
1 from the home of Thomas Hanvey to your home?
2 A. I was asked about that phone call, yes.
3 Q. Do you remember, did you speak to anyone?
4 A. No, there was no phone call. I didn't speak to anybody.
5 Q. You say there was no phone call. Why do you say that?
6 A. I mean I didn't speak to anyone on the phone. I didn't
7 get a phone call.
8 Q. Have you ever spoken to Thomas Hanvey?
9 A. I don't know him.
10 Q. Not at all?
11 A. Never, never.
12 Q. Presumably then, there is no reason at all that you can
13 think of as to why Thomas Hanvey would want to speak to
14 you or your father?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you ever spoken to Allister Hanvey on the
17 telephone?
18 A. I don't believe so.
19 Q. Did you know in 1997 --
20 A. I don't even think I held Allister's telephone number
21 back in 1997 to telephone him.
22 Q. This is a telephone call from Thomas Hanvey's house to
23 your house?
24 A. Yes, okay.
25 Q. Now, in terms of the morning of 27 April 1997, would you
60
1 have been at home at 9.46?
2 A. Quite probably, yes. I couldn't say for certain.
3 Q. You would remember, presumably, if someone phoned you
4 and said something along the lines of you had better get
5 rid of your clothes?
6 A. I would remember that, yes.
7 Q. Did that happen?
8 A. No, it didn't happen. There was no phone call. I never
9 received any telephone call from Thomas Hanvey.
10 Q. Yes, and you are not aware of any reason as to why
11 Thomas Hanvey would phone you?
12 A. No, reason. I have no idea whatsoever.
13 MR BERRY: Thank you.
14 Questions by MR GREEN
15 MR GREEN: A couple of questions. I appear for Mr Wright
16 in the Inquiry.
17 Mr Wright, no matter what the contents of the phone
18 call on 18 October which we hear was made to your
19 home -- a phone call from Mr Hobson from prison, and you
20 have been asked about that phone call of 18 October, and
21 you have been asked about whether there was any
22 reference or any discussion in relation to the DPP
23 meeting.
24 A. Yes, I was asked that, yes.
25 Q. You then didn't make withdrawal -- is that correct? --
61
1 until March of the following year?
2 A. That's true, yes.
3 Q. Some five months following whatever discussion took
4 place about that meeting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We also heard you were asked some considerable questions
7 about speaking to Mr Hobson and the content of any
8 discussions you had when you were in custody with
9 Mr Hobson; isn't that correct? You were asked a lot of
10 questions about any discussions you might have had with
11 Mr Hobson in prison?
12 A. In prison, yes.
13 Q. And whether you discussed the case?
14 A. Yes, I was asked that, yes.
15 Q. But is it also the case that you are only learning
16 today, in fact, from this Inquiry that Marc Hobson
17 discussed horror when he located your statement or found
18 your statement in papers when he received them?
19 A. Yes, that's the first that I have been made aware of
20 this, yes.
21 Q. So in fact that horror was expressed by Marc Hobson only
22 when he received his papers; isn't that right?
23 A. It seems that way, yes.
24 Q. And that seems to have been there for the first time
25 that he was made aware?
62
1 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a comment.
2 Q. I apologise, it is a comment. In the third statement
3 that you made, the statement dated 13 March 1997, you
4 are talking about the second statement in that and you
5 say:
6 "At the time I made it up because I was afraid ..."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Your fear, you have indicated, was obviously of the
9 police officer?
10 A. Yes, definitely, yes.
11 Q. Does that mean that you are indicating at the time you
12 made that statement it wasn't through fear of the
13 persons you named in that statement?
14 A. Most definitely not.
15 Q. In other words, persons that you were saying in that
16 statement were involved in some sort of offence or in
17 the location of the offence; those weren't the people
18 you were afraid of?
19 A. No, no way.
20 Q. And that is why you made the second statement, because
21 your fear was actually of a police officer and not of
22 those persons; isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is true.
24 Q. And when you then go on in that statement and you say:
25 "I now know that it is known by others in Portadown
63
1 what I said in the second statement."
2 And I think you have indicated to the Inquiry that
3 you were only made aware of that that day; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, that is true.
6 Q. Is your fear because you were then aware that those
7 people had become aware that you had made a false
8 statement against them?
9 A. No.
10 MR GREEN: No further questions.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?
12 Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD
13 MR UNDERWOOD: One matter arising. You were asked about how
14 Mr Hobson knew, when he was interviewed by the Inquiry,
15 what you say about the circumstances of making the
16 second statement. Do you remember being asked about
17 that?
18 A. I think so, yes.
19 Q. And when Mr McGrory said it was inconceivable that he
20 could have known those circumstances unless you had told
21 him, take it from me, will you, that Mr Hobson was
22 interviewed by the Inquiry on 1 June 2006?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And there was present there a solicitor who was also
25 present at your interview, and your interview took place
64
1 on 9 May 2006. You don't have to answer this because
2 you can keep to yourself anything you have ever told to
3 your lawyers, but consider whether you do want to answer
4 it: Did you tell your lawyers, for the purposes of
5 being interviewed by the Inquiry, what you are now
6 saying about the circumstances of giving a second
7 statement?
8 A. I have no idea what you mean by that question, sorry.
9 Q. When you were interviewed by the Inquiry you had a
10 solicitor, yes? For this Inquiry?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you tell that solicitor what you are now telling us
13 about why you made the second statement?
14 A. I don't ...
15 Q. You are telling us that you made the second statement
16 because the police officer bullied you into it?
17 A. Yes, that's true.
18 Q. And threatened you on the basis that you knew more than
19 you were saying and so on and so forth, and that you
20 might not be able to go on holiday. Did you tell your
21 solicitors that?
22 A. I'm pretty certain, yes.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
24 No further questions, thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You are free now to go, sir.
65
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Carol Ann Jones, please.
2 MRS CAROL ANN JONES (sworn)
3 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
4 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood. Can you give us your
5 full name?
6 A. Carol Ann Jones.
7 Q. If we may, what I want to do is ask you some questions
8 about the events of the early hours of 27 April 1997,
9 and I think the position is you used to live at that
10 stage in a flat overlooking Thomas Street. Is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes, that is right.
13 Q. Perhaps we could have a look in the photograph album at
14 album number 3, the last photographs. So picking it up
15 on 263 for a start, can you tell us which windows
16 belonged to the flat?
17 A. I vaguely remember. I think it was -- maybe those ones,
18 the second floor.
19 Q. You can either describe this or, if you like, you can
20 actually mark on the screen --
21 A. Sorry.
22 Q. It will take us a moment, I am afraid, to put the screen
23 in a position where you can do that.
24 A. I think it was that. Who knows.
25 Q. If we go back to the photograph before, 262, what we
66
1 understood from the photographer who took this
2 photograph, Mr Peter maile is that this is the view you get
3 by leaning outside the window if you open it fully.
4 On the night, were you looking out by leaning out
5 like that or did you look out in some other way?
6 A. No, I would have been leaning out.
7 Q. Sorry?
8 A. I would have been leaning out.
9 Q. Now, can I now take you to page 81280. This is the
10 first page of a draft statement and I just want to flick
11 through it quite quickly to show you all seven pages of
12 it just to show you what it is.
13 Now, this is a statement that was drafted by the
14 Inquiry, and I know you haven't signed it but have you
15 had a chance to look at it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. And if we go back to the second paragraph of
20 this, you tell us there that you made three statements
21 to the police, and you give the numbers and you say in
22 the second sentence:
23 "I cannot now remember very much about 27 April and
24 for the purposes of making this statement I have had to
25 rely on my three previous statements. What I said in
67
1 those was what I believed at the time."
2 Is that still the position?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Perhaps we can have a look at those, then, please. If
5 we can off with page 09116, and if we can magnify the
6 text, this is a statement made on 16 May 1997 and you
7 say at the end of the first line:
8 "On Sunday, 27 April 1997, I was in my first floor
9 flat in Portadown with my boyfriend, David Jones. My
10 flat ..."
11 You describe it in the Thomas Street area:
12 "... from the living room window I can see right out
13 into Market Street. At approximately 2 am, David and I
14 heard shouting and the sound of people running in the
15 street below. We both went to the window. David got
16 there first. I could see a crowd of about five people
17 standing in Thomas Street just about the Eastwoods shop.
18 There were two women in this group of five people and
19 three grown men, who I'd put in their early 30s. There
20 was another group of people consisting of about seven
21 people, who were mostly male, standing in Market Street
22 just opposite Thomas Street Portadown. There was no
23 shouting between these two groups and I got the
24 impression that the group on Market Street and the group
25 on Thomas Street were friends.
68
1 "I did not recognise any of people in either of these
2 groups. All of a sudden David turned to me and said to me,
3 'Is that your David there?' And I looked down and saw
4 my younger brother, David, standing a few feet away from
5 my front door. David, my boyfriend, said that someone
6 had hit David."
7 Now, is that your recollection now or have you no
8 recollection now?
9 A. No, I don't really.
10 Q. Can I ask you a bit about the circumstances of this? We
11 know that your brother David was arrested on 15 May 1997
12 on suspicion of murder and you gave this statement the
13 next day. Can you describe how it is that you came to
14 make the statement?
15 A. The police called at the door and asked for a statement.
16 Q. And were you and your then boyfriend then both at home?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you give your statements together?
19 A. No, not in the same room at the same time, no.
20 Q. Were you expecting them to come?
21 A. Not really, no.
22 Q. Had you known about your brother being arrested?
23 A. I can't remember now.
24 Q. Was it a shock that your brother was arrested?
25 A. Probably, yes, yes.
69
1 Q. And was there any discussion in the family about
2 anything you could do to help once he was arrested
3 without giving evidence one way or the other?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When he was arrested, did you understand that it was in
6 connection with the events of the night that we are
7 talking about here?
8 A. As I say, the police just called at the door and told me
9 that and that was the first I heard and give
10 a statement.
11 Q. So can you not help us with whether, before you gave the
12 statement, you were aware of whether your brother was
13 arrested or not?
14 A. I don't remember now. I don't remember.
15 Q. All right. And if we go over the page to 09117, you
16 deal with telling your brother to come in. And starting
17 just into the first line:
18 "He did so, and we went back upstairs to the flat
19 where I got my brother a glass of water. My brother was
20 drunk and had been hit in the face and I could see
21 marking on his face. I cannot remember exactly which
22 side of the face. After a few minutes, I went back over
23 to the window. I looked out and could see two men in
24 the road in Market Street. They were both on the
25 Thomas Street side of the central reservation. One of
70
1 the men was sitting up, the other man was lying on his
2 back and there was a woman with him who was screaming.
3 I saw a policeman approach the man who was lying on his
4 back with the woman. The woman was screaming abuse at
5 the policeman, but I cannot remember what exactly she
6 said. The ambulance arrived and I came away from the
7 window."
8 Now, can you remember any of this now?
9 A. Not now, no.
10 Q. So if I asked you whether you could now improve on the
11 detail of any part of this statement, would your answer
12 be no? All right.
13 Can I ask you to look at page [01038], please? This
14 is a letter -- you may never have seen this before so
15 I'll take you through it carefully. It was written by
16 a man who lived in Thomas Street, further down up by the
17 British Legion, and let me read it to you and see what
18 you can say about it:
19 "On the date of the fight, I observed two men and
20 two ladies walking in the direction of the town centre
21 from the fire station. One lady said not to walk any
22 further as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner
23 bakery, to which the man replied, 'This is a free
24 country and I will walk where the f*** I like'. At this,
25 he shouted to the fellas, 'Do you want to fight?' This
71
1 was shouted about two, maybe three times before the
2 crowd at the bakery responded."
3 Just pausing there, what drew your attention to the
4 window -- if I can get this right -- is noise, shouting?
5 A. Noise, yes.
6 Q. But when you looked out, you didn't see anybody
7 shouting; is that fair?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. All right. So:
10 "Then from this both sides starting provoking each other.
11 The man that had been doing most of the talking then walked
12 out to the middle of the road placing his bottle to the
13 ground. He raised his hands into the air and waved as
14 he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'. Eventually, one men
15 stepped out from the crowd at the bakery and shouted,
16 'I'll take you then'. At this point, the ladies that
17 were with the two men shouted for them to stop and walk
18 home. But the provoking became worse until both men were
19 about a foot away and sizing each up with not one ready
20 to throw a punch, until another man broke from the crowd
21 at the bakery, ran between the both and punched the one
22 facing the town and ran off in the direction of
23 St Mark's church. The one who received the blow to his
24 face then punched the one who was sizing up to him and
25 ran after the man who had thrown the first punch."
72
1 I know you have probably not seen this before, but
2 let me explain to you what he is saying happened here.
3 There is a group of Catholics, as it turns out, coming
4 up from the area of the British Legion. A group of
5 Protestants, as it turns out, is standing at the top of
6 Thomas Street by the bakery. They are shouting at each
7 other, they are taunting each other, there is a squaring
8 up, then one of the men at the bakery throws the first
9 punch and the Catholic who gets hit then hits one of the
10 other Protestants and a fight starts. And the
11 suggestion is that your brother was one of the men
12 standing at the bakery, and we get that from other
13 evidence, not from this.
14 What I want you to do if you can is to tell us
15 whether there is anything in here that is inconsistent
16 with what you saw?
17 A. I didn't see any of the fight. I just heard the noise
18 and went to the window.
19 Q. And as I say, we have got from other witnesses the idea
20 that there were perhaps three Protestant boys at the top
21 of Thomas Street, your brother, somebody called
22 Rory Robinson and somebody called Fonzy, Andrew Allen.
23 Did you know Rory Robinson or Andrew Allen?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you spoken to your brother about the circumstances
73
1 of this?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I just want to take you then quite briefly to the other
4 statements you made to the police to see if you can help
5 us on those; 09119. You tell us halfway down here, I
6 think, towards the right-hand side of the line:
7 "As I was behind David ..."
8 That is your boyfriend:
9 "... I did not see my brother David being assaulted,
10 and the first time I saw him was when he was standing on
11 the pavement below immediately outside my front door."
12 That is right, is it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then if we go to page 09121, just the first
15 half -- that is fine, thank you. This is a statement
16 made on the same subject but for a different reason,
17 because there was a complaint about whether the police
18 got out of the Land Rover. In the second sentence, you
19 say:
20 "What I can say in relation to this incident is that
21 I first went to my window because of the noise. I can
22 recall shouting. The only thing that sticks out in my
23 mind is words 'Orange bastards'. I then subsequently
24 went outside my flat because my boyfriend had told me
25 that my brother David had got hit."
74
1 Again, does that help you with recollecting it any
2 better?
3 A. As I said, I did not really think much about it now. It
4 is really irrelevant to me.
5 Q. Very well. And I have already shown you page 09117,
6 but let's see it again. If we pick up the middle third,
7 this is describing a man lying on his back, a woman with
8 him screaming:
9 "I saw a policeman approach the man who was lying on
10 his back with the woman. The woman was screaming abuse
11 at the policeman, but I cannot remember exactly what she
12 said. The ambulance arrived and I came away from the
13 window."
14 Can you help us at all now with any recollection of
15 police activity?
16 A. There definitely was police there, definitely, only one
17 or two, like, but not a great vast number, but there
18 definitely was police there.
19 Q. Can you give any help about what they were doing?
20 A. Trying to help. One of them, I remember, was trying to
21 help.
22 Q. Trying to help?
23 A. The injured person.
24 Q. Is that the person you are describing here?
25 A. Probably, yes.
75
1 Q. Again, if you can't remember, just please say so, but
2 can you give us an impression of when you were looking
3 out after your brother had come up into the flat and you
4 were looking back down again to see what was going on,
5 did you have the impression of a fight out of control or
6 a fight with police trying to get it under control, or
7 a fight --
8 A. No, a fight probably out of control, I would say.
9 Q. And did you see the police Land Rover parked up on the
10 mouth of Woodhouse Street?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You can see that from looking out of your window,
13 can you?
14 A. I'm not sure if I was looking. It may have been when
15 I went to the door.
16 Q. Are you aware whether the police got out of that Land
17 Rover?
18 A. I don't know, I have no idea.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mrs Jones. Other people
20 may have some more questions.
21 Questions by MR FERGUSON
22 MR FERGUSON: So the position is that whereas you can't say
23 where these police personnel came from, they were
24 definitely there at the scene?
25 A. I definitely seen police, yes.
76
1 Q. You definitely seen police. And you say, what, one or
2 two?
3 A. Possibly two just, but there wasn't a great amount of
4 police, not that I can remember.
5 Q. No. But from what you observed, they were doing their
6 best to assist the person who was injured?
7 A. Yes, from what I can remember, yes.
8 MR FERGUSON: Is that right? Thank you.
9 Questions by MR ADAIR
10 MR ADAIR: Now, Miss Jones, I want to ask you something just
11 about your family, about your brother David and your
12 mother and so on, so the Panel have an idea of who you
13 are. Do you understand?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, first of all, have you any association ever with
16 any of the people that were charged with the murder of
17 Robert Hamill?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you any knowledge about them?
20 A. Not a whole lot, no.
21 Q. No. Had your family or anyone, to your knowledge, do
22 you know? For example, we know that your brother David,
23 I think he lived at home with your mum?
24 A. He did, yes.
25 Q. Shirley?
77
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And at that time he was aged about, what, 15 or 16?
3 A. Probably, yes. I'm five years older than him.
4 Q. You were about 20?
5 A. I was about 20/21 maybe, yes.
6 Q. Had you lived at home before you moved into the flat to
7 live with your partner?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did your dad live at home?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did your dad work?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did your mum work?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Had you a job?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you mind me asking when you did?
18 A. Office work. I have always done office work.
19 Q. Right. And then we know that -- I think, was it about
20 a year before you moved into this flat with Mr Jones?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it Terence?
23 A. Terence, yes.
24 Q. And just tell us about Mr Jones, xxxxxxxxxx?
25 A. Yes.
78
1 Q. And at that time was he working?
2 A. I can't remember because xxxxxxxxxx just when
3 I met him, so I can't even remember if he was working or
4 not, to tell you the truth.
5 Q. Now, in relation to David, can you tell us a little
6 about him? We have heard a suggestion, for example,
7 that he was a bit of a loner?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I see you smiling?
10 A. He is, he still is.
11 Q. But going back to 1997, was he a bit of loner in those
12 days? Not in the sense of not talking to anybody, but
13 would he go out by himself?
14 A. Yes, he would. He still does. He just goes out and
15 talks to different people, but he would be, yes.
16 Q. Did he keep himself to himself?
17 A. He would have done, yes.
18 Q. Was he the sort of person to go out with a group of
19 lads, for example, in those days or would he go out
20 himself?
21 A. He probably would have gone out just by himself and
22 maybe whoever he bumped into would have had a drink
23 with. You know, he knew people, like. He wasn't weird
24 that he didn't know people, but he didn't really go --
25 went in cliques of people, like, not that I know,
79
1 anyway.
2 Q. Was he a violent person?
3 A. No way, definitely not.
4 Q. How would you describe his personality, David's
5 personality, back in those days?
6 A. He was only a child really, like. He was only 16, he
7 was quiet.
8 Q. Quiet?
9 A. Yes, quiet natured. He still is. He is a quiet natured
10 person.
11 Q. I'm not trying to make him out to be a weirdo at all,
12 but the impression we are getting -- and just correct me
13 if I'm wrong -- is of a quiet, inoffensive loner?
14 A. I wouldn't say loner as such, but as I say, he just
15 keeps himself to himself. He wouldn't be, like, a rowdy
16 person to go round in big groups of people.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I know that we will hopefully be hearing
18 from your partner?
19 A. Ex.
20 Q. Ex-partner in due course, but can you tell us a little
21 about him just in case we don't hear. You had been
22 living with him for about a year; is that right?
23 A. Yes, I think so now.
24 Q. Had he any affiliation or friendship with any of these
25 people?
80
1 A. He was from Belfast. He wasn't from the town, so he
2 wouldn't have really known them anyway.
3 Q. So he had no real friends in Portadown?
4 A. No, definitely at that time, no, none.
5 Q. So he wasn't a person who was going out with some locals
6 on the town?
7 A. No, he met me and that is the only reason he was in the
8 town, just because ...
9 Q. What sort of a person is he?
10 A. He is quite quiet natured as well, to be truthful. He
11 wouldn't -- he would maybe be a bit tougher than David
12 xxxxxxxxxx, but he certainly
13 wouldn't go out to pick fights or nothing would be the
14 answer to your question.
15 Q. Now, I'm not suggesting this was the innuendo, but
16 a possible innuendo from some of the questions you were
17 asked by Mr Underwood in relation to the making of this
18 statement on the 16th, was that David had been
19 interviewed by the police on the 15th and then the
20 police come to you and take a statement from you on the
21 16th.
22 Now, I don't know whether you picked up that
23 possible innuendo or whether that is just me picking up
24 that possible innuendo, but let me ask you this: have
25 you or your partner ever been asked to make any
81
1 statement on behalf of David that was untrue?
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. By anybody?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Would you make an untrue statement?
6 A. No, I wouldn't get myself in trouble for anybody.
7 Q. And as I understand -- and I'm not going to go through
8 again what you saw -- my understanding, to summarise
9 what you can tell us, is that you are not attempting in
10 any way to say that you saw how David got the blow to
11 the face?
12 A. No, I didn't see it.
13 Q. You didn't see it at all?
14 A. No, my ex-partner, he seen it apparently, so he says. I
15 didn't, I did not see it.
16 Q. Did David, to your knowledge, or any one of your
17 extended family, ever suggest to your ex-partner that he
18 should make up a story?
19 A. No way. Why would they? No.
20 Q. Now, we know that it being 12 years on, you will tell us
21 that you don't really remember very much about the whole
22 night. Can the Panel take it that the contents of your
23 three statements are true?
24 A. Of course, yes. I said it at the time. I wasn't going
25 to make it up if it was true at the time. It is still
82
1 true, like -- it is just that is what I said at the
2 time.
3 Q. Is it clear that the one noise you did hear are the
4 words, as we can see -- the words that you could pick up
5 from outside were the words of somebody shouting "Orange
6 bastards"?
7 A. If I said that at the time, that is what I heard, yes.
8 Q. And the other thing that you are absolutely clear
9 about -- I don't know whether you are aware of this --
10 as has been stated by Mr McGrory about another matter --
11 I don't know whether you are aware that part of the
12 reason this Inquiry is here is the possibility of two
13 scenarios. It has been suggested by some organisations
14 and people throughout the years that the police did not
15 attempt to give any help to the injured people in this
16 case. Are you aware of that?
17 A. I am aware of that, yes.
18 Q. Now, that is either black propaganda and nonsensical or
19 it is true, and either scenario was appalling. Do you
20 understand that? Have you any doubt whatsoever that the
21 police were giving first aid and assistance to the
22 injured --
23 A. The police definitely tried to help. In my
24 recollection, the police definitely tried to help, yes.
25 Q. Have you any axe to grind in relation to anybody
83
1 involved in this inquiry?
2 A. No.
3 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
4 Questions by MR McGRORY
5 MR McGRORY: I have some few questions. I act for the
6 Hamill family, Mrs Jones. I just want to clear up one
7 thing that Mr Adair raised with you.
8 I'm sure you will agree with this proposition that
9 those groups who have claimed that an inquiry was
10 necessary because allegations that the police had
11 misbehaved or hadn't acted promptly and so forth, may
12 have done so with the best will in the world because
13 they felt that those matters needed to be cleared up and
14 it is not black propaganda. Do you understand that?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we are only interested in the evidence
16 we hear about what happened and what didn't happen. The
17 motives of others who might have belonged to pressure
18 groups is neither here nor there.
19 MR McGRORY: I hope Mr Adair will accept that. I was going
20 to interject at the time.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: He should know.
22 MR McGRORY: Let's get that out of the way. I only want to
23 find out from you, Mrs Jones, just what you can remember
24 about what you saw. There is no suggestion that you are
25 here to tell any lies or do any wrong. Do you
84
1 understand?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Or that you did any wrong. It is just so we can get to
4 the bottom of it.
5 I just want you to look at a couple of photographs,
6 if you don't mind. It is page [01044]. Now, is that
7 the room from which you looked out on the street?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It is. The next photograph which is of relevance would
10 be, I suppose, [01047]. Can you tell us if that was the
11 view that you would have had, that you have referred to
12 a view when you came up to the window, you saw a group
13 of people in the corner? Does that mean anything to
14 you, that picture, that that is where you would have
15 seen it?
16 A. That is just the view out of my flat.
17 Q. Yes. But do you accept that is where the people were
18 standing?
19 A. More than likely, yes.
20 Q. Yes, more than likely. Perhaps just [01046], please,
21 just so we can get a complete picture. That, then, is
22 the same window with the window open?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We have heard some evidence from a photographer about
25 how these windows open, that they open quite fully. So
85
1 they could open completely at a 90 degrees angle. I
2 think in one statement you said they opened outwards
3 but --
4 A. No.
5 Q. In any event, this is the window and on the occasion
6 that you would have looked out and your then boyfriend
7 would have looked out, were both these windows open, can
8 you help us?
9 A. I wouldn't have a clue now.
10 Q. You wouldn't have a clue?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, the scenario that arises from the statements that
13 you made at the time is that it is early in the morning,
14 it is around 2 am, but we needn't worry about that.
15 That is your impression at the time. Is that right?
16 And Mr Jones goes over to the window first?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that you were pretty close behind him. I'm
19 suggesting to you that is the impression that is given
20 from the statement?
21 A. Yes, probably, yes.
22 Q. Yes. So in other words, I'm suggesting to you that he
23 probably -- he is in front of you, so it is not a big
24 space, that you are standing behind him. So your view
25 would come from behind him. Is that correct?
86
1 A. More than likely, yes.
2 Q. More than likely, yes?
3 A. But, as I say, I can't remember now how I was standing
4 at the window.
5 Q. But can you remember if he was leaning out?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. You can't remember?
8 A. No way.
9 Q. You see, your brother has told us that he got thumped
10 just below here?
11 A. Hm-mm.
12 Q. So that if Mr Jones was to have seen that happen, I'm
13 suggesting to you that he must have been leaning out
14 a bit because --
15 A. Probably then, yes.
16 Q. So obviously you didn't see it happen?
17 A. I didn't see it happen. I have said that all along.
18 Q. And one of the reasons for that is that your view of the
19 street immediately below the window would have been
20 obstructed because Mr Jones was in front of you?
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. And you give a reasonably detailed description in your
23 statement of the 16 May. It is page 09116:
24 "We both went to the window, David got there first."
25 That's about four or five lines down. Do you see
87
1 that:
2 "We both went to the window. David got there first.
3 I could see a crowd of about five people standing in
4 Thomas Street just about Eastwoods shop."
5 So you are describing to the police that corner that
6 we have just shown you which was empty of people, of
7 course, because the photograph was taken later and the
8 observation you make is of a group of people?
9 A. At the time, yes. If that is what I seen then, that is
10 what I seen.
11 Q. You can't remember now?
12 A. No, not at all.
13 Q. But your then boyfriend is looking perhaps -- he is
14 leaning out of the window. Is that correct? Can you
15 help us there? That is your memory, is it?
16 A. I can't remember now, but if that is what I said at the
17 time, then that's what I remembered then. I mean, this
18 is 12/13 years ago.
19 Q. At the time you are making your observation of the
20 people on the corner, he is in front of you and that is
21 when he turns round to you and says, "Is that your
22 brother there?" Is that right? Can you remember?
23 A. I can't remember now, no.
24 Q. Well, he turned round to say to you -- I think, you
25 know, your brother has been hit; isn't that right?
88
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If he comes he will be able to tell us at what point he
3 said that, but is it your memory that you both run to
4 the window and that he observed your brother being hit?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that he observes your brother being hit while you
7 are looking out from behind him at the corner?
8 A. I don't know when he observed. He said that to me and
9 then I looked out and then I says, yes, that is my
10 brother, yes.
11 Q. Yes. But you both go to the window. He goes to the
12 window first, but you are just behind him?
13 A. I don't remember. I mean, we both went to the window,
14 yes, and he seen my brother being hit and I didn't.
15 That is all I know.
16 Q. I have put to you the reason why you might not have seen
17 your brother being hit: because your view is obstructed?
18 A. Possibly, yes.
19 Q. But would you accept that you both went to the window at
20 pretty much the same time, but you got there first?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR McGRORY: Thank you. I have no further questions.
23 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
24 Questions by MR BERRY
25 MR BERRY: I want to ask you about the lady that you
89
1 mentioned in the statements who was beside the man lying
2 on the ground, and particularly you allege that this
3 lady was shouting abuse at the police.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you give us any indication how close was this lady
6 to the police officers that you saw?
7 A. I can't remember now. I do remember she was kneeling
8 beside the person.
9 Q. So you certainly associate this woman who was shouting
10 abuse with --
11 A. With the injured person, yes.
12 Q. Yes. And would it be fair of me to suggest to you that
13 the police officers were much closer to this lady than
14 you were, for example?
15 A. Oh, yes. I was up in the flat.
16 Q. Now, in your first police statement, you mentioned --
17 you have been asked this by my learned friends
18 already -- you look out of the window, out of your flat,
19 you observed five people standing at the corner, three
20 of which were men and two were women?
21 A. I can't remember that now, but if I said that at the
22 time --
23 Q. I just want to know, the woman that was shouting the
24 abuse at the police, did you recognise her as one of the
25 two women standing at the corner?
90
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. You don't remember?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When you did look out of your window and you saw your
5 brother, the impression I get is that he was standing
6 very close to the door to your flat. Is that right?
7 A. Across the way under -- at Eastwoods there, I think.
8 Q. Sorry?
9 A. At Eastwoods shop across the road.
10 Q. That is where your brother was?
11 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
12 Q. You have mentioned that he had a mark on his face. Can
13 you recall now what part of his face was marked?
14 A. No, definitely not now.
15 Q. Are you able to give any description of the nature of
16 the injury?
17 A. Not now, no.
18 MR BERRY: Thank you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mrs Jones, we appreciate
21 you coming.
22 (12.40 pm)
23 (Short break)
24 (12.46 pm)
25 MR UNDERWOOD: Donald Blevins.
91
1 DONALD BLEVINS (sworn)
2 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Hello, Mr Blevins. My name is Underwood, I'm
4 Counsel to the Inquiry. I have got some questions for
5 you, and then at the end of that some other people may
6 have a few more. Can I start by apologising for keeping
7 you waiting.
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. Can you give us your full name?
10 A. Donald James Blevins.
11 Q. Can you look at page 81616. This is the first page of
12 a statement and I just want to run through it very
13 quickly on the screen, through the six pages of it, to
14 see if you can identify that it is your statement. Is
15 that your statement signed on 17 February?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. What I want to do quite briefly is to take
20 you through a few passages in this to see if you can
21 help us with a bit more detail. Can we look at
22 page [81418], at the top paragraph. This is part of
23 paragraph 8. You start in the middle of first line:
24 "If you were looking to have a fight, you could go
25 to the town centre Portadown and have one. It would be
92
1 easy to predict where and when the fight would take
2 place. I would have assumed that this fight was
3 sectarian in nature involving Catholics and Protestants
4 and it was right in the town centre, exactly where
5 Robert Hamill died. There were always police in the
6 town centre on a Saturday night usually in their Land
7 Rover. Most times the police were able to control the
8 fights, but sometimes they would not be able to
9 depending on the size of the crowd. Sometimes the
10 police would not get out of their Land Rover but would
11 wait for the fight to finish, for things to calm down,
12 before getting out of the Land Rover."
13 What I want to ask you about is the degree of
14 experience you have seeing things like that happen. For
15 a start, had you personally seen other fights in the
16 centre?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Had you seen Land Rovers in the centre of town on a
19 Saturday night before?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And had you personally seen police sitting in their Land
22 Rovers waiting for a fight to die down before they got
23 out?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. More than once?
93
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In general, in your experience of seeing fights in
3 Portadown, were they very serious affairs?
4 A. Not really, no.
5 Q. So a few broken noses, that sort of thing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we move on to paragraph 9, you say there:
8 "I decided to go down to the town centre to see what
9 was going on just out of curiosity. Judith ..."
10 That is Judith Lyttle:
11 "... walked down to the Intersport shop with me and
12 as I told the police in my interview, she stopped there.
13 Perhaps she was scared, I don't know. I was not
14 concerned for my own safety, nor did I have any plans to
15 get involved. If there was a fight going on, it was not
16 uncommon for a crowd to gather and look on."
17 On the crowd gathering to look on question, we have
18 heard a number of people describe being around the
19 summer seats area and watching the events from there.
20 Had you any experience personally of seeing crowds
21 gather at that part of the town to watch fights that
22 happened in the centre?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And we have also heard evidence that people were much
25 closer than that, so that there was a crowd, for
94
1 example, surrounding the men on the ground here is what
2 we have heard from some witnesses. And, again, has it
3 been your experience that you might get crowds very
4 close to the fight looking on in Portadown?
5 A. On that night in question?
6 Q. Generally.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And on the night in question -- let's move on to that --
9 did you see people at the Summer Seats area?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see people closer, watching?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If we move on to paragraph 10, you talk about
14 Wayne Lunt, and about three lines down you say:
15 "When I saw him, Wayne was by himself and having
16 difficulty breathing, he was drunk. I asked him if he
17 was okay."
18 I wonder if there is something you can help us with
19 here. There is a possibility that has been canvassed
20 that Wayne Lunt had been down in the centre at one
21 point, got himself up by the Summer Seats and then went
22 back down again towards the centre of the town, and that
23 he might have run up towards the Summer Seats and the
24 church and got himself out of breath that way. Can you
25 help us with what you are describing there? You say he
95
1 is drunk and he is having difficulty breathing.
2 Difficulty breathing because he had been running, or
3 what?
4 A. No, because he was drunk.
5 Q. He was legless?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then if we go over to page 81619, your paragraph 11,
8 you say:
9 "From the front of the church I could see a crowd of
10 people in the town centre near the junction of Thomas,
11 Woodhouse and Market Streets. I saw a young fellow whom
12 I now know was Robert Hamill lying on the High Street
13 near to Thomas Street in front of Eastwoods, and the
14 traffic lights to be precise, with a couple of girls
15 around him. I don't know if this fellow was
16 unconscious. It has been pointed out to me that in my
17 interview I said I saw two fellows on the ground, but
18 now after all these years I can only remember
19 Robert Hamill being on the ground."
20 I know you have been reading the papers for this
21 piece of giving evidence. Is that still your
22 recollection, that you can only recall one?
23 A. Just the one.
24 Q. If we go to paragraph 12, you say:
25 "Initially I would have been maybe a couple of yards
96
1 away from the crowd. There were actually two crowds:
2 there was a crowd of Catholics, maybe five of them on
3 the Woodhouse Street side of the High Street near the
4 Alliance & Leicester, and a crowd of Protestants maybe
5 five or a bit more on the Thomas Street side near
6 Eastwoods, not far away from where Robert Hamill was.
7 I joined the crowd of Protestants. I saw Rory Robinson
8 and Mark Currie near the Protestant crowd."
9 Now, what was going on between the two crowds when
10 you joined?
11 A. Shouting at each other.
12 Q. Was anybody trying to get at the man on the ground?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And if we go on to paragraph 13, you describe this a bit
15 more:
16 "Everyone was just standing about watching and
17 shouting. Both sides would have been shouting your usual
18 sectarian chants. There would have been some scuffles
19 as well between the two crowds as the Protestant crowd
20 got bigger. Someone from the Protestant crowd, Rory I
21 think, but it could have been somebody else, may have
22 run through the police lines and had a swing at someone
23 on the Catholic side:"
24 How good is your recollection of that?
25 A. I can't remember really who that was that night.
97
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember that particular incident
2 that is described, as opposed to the person who was
3 doing it?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we look at page [13320]? This is the
6 second page of a note that a police officer took of
7 a talk he had with you, as far as I can make out on
8 30 April 1997. This is your description, very much
9 along the lines of what you have told us in your
10 statement. If we pick it up about halfway down the
11 manuscript of this, there is a line that starts:
12 "Stated Lunt was later arrested and released.
13 Blevins states he did not witness the assault, saw women
14 [something] two fellows on the ground, saw Rory Robinson
15 in crowd of people in town centre."
16 Doing the best you can with anything that helps to
17 jog your memory, can you help us with what Rory Robinson
18 was doing in the crowd?
19 A. The crowd was just standing about shouting at each
20 other.
21 Q. Including Rory Robinson?
22 A. Well, I don't know why Rory was shouting, but both
23 sides --
24 Q. But he was in the crowd?
25 A. Yes.
98
1 Q. And then that crowd grew bigger, did it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have I got this right: that the Protestants are facing
4 down towards the Boss Hogg's end of town, and the
5 Catholics, facing them are facing towards the church, or
6 is it the other way round?
7 A. Say it again?
8 Q. The two crowds facing each other?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Which way were they facing? Was the Protestant crowd
11 facing down towards the Boss Hogg's end or facing up
12 towards the church end?
13 A. It was across the road, it wouldn't have been either
14 way.
15 Q. Okay. I want to ask you now about the police activity,
16 and if we go back to your statement at 81620,
17 paragraph 14, you deal in the first sentence with what
18 a police officer says about you trying to calm the
19 situation down and you saying you can't remember that.
20 Then if we pick it up just three lines from the bottom
21 of this part:
22 "The police were also trying to get people to move
23 on, but people did not want to leave; they wanted to see
24 what was going on. Eventually more police arrived and
25 people started going home."
99
1 Have I got the picture right here?
2 When you join this crowd, it is small, perhaps only
3 five or six people on the Protestant side, there is
4 sectarian chanting going on between the two groups.
5 There is at least one man on the ground that you can
6 remember now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What were the police doing?
9 A. Trying to separate things.
10 Q. Why did they need to be separated? Were the crowds
11 trying get at each other?
12 A. Yes. The two crowds were separated at the time I come
13 down.
14 Q. By the police?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And were people still trying to get past the police to
17 get to the other crowd?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see the police get batons out?
20 A. No, I don't think so.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing police vehicles apart from the
22 Land Rover?
23 A. They did come along eventually.
24 Q. So is the situation you are describing then the picture
25 I have just given, before back-up police arrived?
100
1 A. I can't really remember.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Blevins. That is all I have to
3 ask. Other people may have some more.
4 Questions by MR FERGUSON
5 MR FERGUSON: Mr Blevins, it was obviously a fairly
6 commonplace occurrence in Portadown centre on a Saturday
7 night to have a bit of trouble, sectarian trouble; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I mean, that didn't deter you from going there
11 a Saturday nights, or that area?
12 A. Every Saturday? No.
13 Q. Yes. And what would happen on occasions if it was
14 getting out of hand, the police would interfere; is that
15 so?
16 A. That is correct, yes.
17 Q. Other occasions perhaps there was calming down, they
18 were just calming down?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.
21 Questions by MR ADAIR
22 MR ADAIR: Do you wish me to continue, sir? I'm in your
23 hands.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you going to be long?
25 MR ADAIR: I'm not going to long.
101
1 THE CHAIRMAN: We have just had a break.
2 MR ADAIR: Yes, I'm happy to continue.
3 Mr Blevins, you had been out at the start of the
4 evening with your girlfriend in your car. Is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You made your way to the car park and you heard then
8 that there was a fight going on down the town?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. So you decided to go down to the town. Why was that?
11 A. It was just a common thing that happens down town on a
12 Saturday night, what happened on Saturday nights.
13 Q. But you were out with your girlfriend parked in the car
14 in the car park, you hear there is a fight and your call
15 is to go down to the fight; is that right?
16 A. Yes, I went down to see what was happening.
17 Q. Was that a regular thing you did, go down to the fights?
18 A. Me personally?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Well, why this time?
22 A. Just to see what was going on.
23 Q. So in any event, you head down to the fight and you
24 actually get involved -- you are directly a yard or two
25 away from the crowd that the police are trying to push
102
1 back. Isn't that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And so you are actually part of the crowd that the
4 police are trying to push back?
5 A. You could say that, yes.
6 Q. Well, I could say that. I'm asking you: why did you
7 make yourself part of the crowd, which we know is
8 a Protestant crowd, that the police were trying to push
9 back? Why did you join in?
10 A. I didn't join in. I went down to see what was going on.
11 Q. You were right down there. Rory Robinson was there,
12 was he?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Allister Hanvey, was he there?
15 A. I don't know, I never seen Allister.
16 Q. You know him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How many Protestants there at the time? How many in
19 this crowd?
20 A. There was two crowds. You are saying that there was
21 only five there at the time. There was two crowds.
22 Q. We know there was one crowd which we will call the
23 Catholics, which we are assuming are the Catholics and
24 they are over near Woodhouse Street. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
103
1 Q. And as I understand your evidence, the two crowds were
2 trying to get at each other?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So the Catholics were trying to get at the Protestants
5 and the Protestants were trying to get at the Catholics?
6 A. Something like that.
7 Q. I don't want "something like that", is that what it was?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the police were trying to keep the Catholics and the
10 Protestants apart?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. To try and prevent any injury either to Catholics or to
13 Protestants?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you go down and join the Protestant crowd; isn't
16 that right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You do not join the Catholic crowd?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No. And you obviously know that the crowd you joined
21 are the Protestant crowd?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Well, tell us who was there to enable you to know that
24 they were the Protestant crowd?
25 A. Well, Rory Robinson.
104
1 Q. Right. We have got him.
2 A. Mark Currie.
3 Q. Who else?
4 A. Mark Currie.
5 Q. Mark Currie, who else?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Well, have a wee think about it. What about
8 Dean Forbes?
9 A. Yes, Dean Forbes.
10 Q. He was one of the crowd?
11 A. Yes, I think so.
12 Q. Marc Hobson?
13 A. Can't remember seeing Marc.
14 Q. You know him?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did I ask you about Allister Hanvey?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was he there?
19 A. I can't remember seeing Allister.
20 Q. Andrew Allen?
21 A. I don't know Andrew Allen.
22 Q. He goes by the nickname Fonzy. Did you know a Fonzy?
23 A. I know a Fonzy, but it is not that -- whatever you are
24 calling him. What's his name?
25 Q. Andrew Allen.
105
1 A. I know a Fonzy, but it is not ...
2 Q. Andrew Allen. So are you saying to us that the only
3 people you recognised in this crowd were Rory Robinson,
4 Mark Currie and Dean Forbes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What were they doing?
7 A. They were standing at the other side of the -- from
8 Woodhouse Street.
9 Q. Pardon?
10 A. They were standing at the opposite side of
11 Woodhouse Street.
12 Q. And were the police trying to push them back up the
13 street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And were they trying to get through the police to get at
16 the Catholics?
17 A. They were just arguing and shouting at each other.
18 Q. But you have told us already that the Protestants were
19 trying to get at the Catholics and the Catholics were
20 trying to get at the Protestants. So were Rory Robinson
21 and Dean Forbes amongst the crowd that were trying to
22 get at the Catholics?
23 A. They were in the crowd.
24 Q. Were they amongst the crowd that were trying to get at
25 the Catholics?
106
1 A. They were in that crowd, yes.
2 Q. Are you going to answer my question? Were they in the
3 crowd that -- could you see that they were trying to get
4 at the Catholics? Let me bring it down to
5 a particularise. Were they trying to get at the
6 Catholics?
7 A. There was one person tried to break the ranks of the
8 police.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. I think it may be Rory Robinson, but I can't remember.
11 Q. You know Rory Robinson?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was it him?
14 A. I can't remember. This happened before I come down. I
15 could see this whenever I was coming down the street.
16 Somebody out of the Protestants side tried to break
17 through the police ranks. This is before I got to the
18 crowd. At that stage, there was a young fellow lying on
19 the -- which was Robert -- lying on the road.
20 Q. You also tell us that both sides were shouting sectarian
21 slogans at each other; is that right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. What were you Protestants shouting?
24 A. Just your usual.
25 Q. Tell us?
107
1 A. Fenians this and Fenians that.
2 Q. What were the Catholics shouting?
3 A. This and that.
4 Q. From "this and that", can we take it that it is a bad
5 word?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. To go in there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So a pretty chaotic scene trying to be controlled by the
10 police?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And it is pretty clear that whenever this crowd was
13 trying to be controlled by the police, the only police
14 vehicle you saw at that time was the Land Rover. Is
15 that right?
16 A. I think so. (Pause) No, I'm wrong, there was other
17 police cars there.
18 Q. I know other police cars arrived eventually, but
19 initially there was just the Land Rover?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At the time you arrive and this is going on. That's all
22 I'm saying.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Now, you have seen somebody who at that time you
25 believed was -- who you think may have been
108
1 Rory Robinson trying to break through the ranks of the
2 police to get at -- and I put it generally -- the
3 Catholics. Isn't that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Why didn't you tell the police that at the time when you
6 were interviewed by the police, that you had seen him
7 trying to get through the crowd?
8 A. Because I didn't know whether it was Rory or not. I was
9 coming down from the church. Somebody tried to get
10 through the police ranks.
11 Q. Did you tell the police about seeing Dean Forbes there?
12 A. Yes, I think I did.
13 Q. Did you tell them he was in the crowd?
14 A. I think I did.
15 Q. Were you asked to make a statement about what you had
16 seen?
17 A. Well ...
18 Q. Do you not remember being asked to attend for interview
19 with the police on 6 May 1997?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would you have made a statement to the police?
22 A. Probably not, no.
23 Q. Pardon?
24 A. Probably not, no.
25 Q. Probably no? Why not?
109
1 A. Just I didn't want get involved in something that had
2 nothing to do with me.
3 Q. You were right there, Mr Blevins. A man was killed,
4 Robert Hamill was killed, murdered by Protestants. You
5 were right there, part of that Protestant crowd. Do you
6 understand me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why would you not have made a statement to the police to
9 try and help in the investigation of the murder of
10 Robert Hamill?
11 A. Because I didn't want get involved in it.
12 Q. Why?
13 A. Just.
14 Q. Is it because you thought if you did make a statement,
15 you would end up the same way as Robert Hamill?
16 A. Probably, yes.
17 Q. Dead. And who did you think the threat would come from
18 that you might end up dead if you made a statement?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, you do know, Mr Blevins. You may not know
21 precisely the identity, but you know in general terms
22 who you were scared of, that you wouldn't make
23 a statement to the police in case you were killed.
24 Now, who was it that you were scared of?
25 A. I don't know.
110
1 Q. Was it the UVF?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was it the LVF?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was it the UDA?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was it the IRA?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Well, who was it?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Who might have killed you if you made a statement?
12 A. What are you getting on about me being killed? Where
13 have I said this here that I might get killed?
14 Q. You are the one who said in your statement that you made
15 to the Inquiry, Mr Blevins.
16 A. Where does it say that in my statement?
17 Q. Go to page 81620, please. If you highlight
18 paragraph 15, do you see about halfway down:
19 "I would not have gone to the police with
20 information in any case. You just don't grass on
21 anything like that because if you were found out, then
22 you would probably end up in the same place as
23 Robert Hamill."
24 So you did say it to the Inquiry?
25 A. Yes.
111
1 Q. Now, all I'm asking is -- and I'm going to leave it at
2 this, Mr Blevins: who was it that you were scared of
3 that you might end up dead if you made a statement to
4 the police?
5 A. You are saying, like, paramilitaries. It could have
6 been any of the paramilitaries.
7 Q. I'm not saying anything, I'm asking you.
8 A. You said the UVF, LVF, UDA.
9 Q. I'm giving you a choice.
10 A. It could have been the whole three of them.
11 Q. Would it have been on the Catholic or the Protestant
12 side?
13 A. The Protestant side.
14 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
15 Questions by MR McKENNA
16 MR McKENNA: Mr Blevins, I'm going to ask you some questions
17 on behalf of the Hamill family. I'm not interested in
18 asking you any questions about where you were and what
19 you were doing on that night. One particular aspect of
20 your interview with the Inquiry if you remember it --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and that was back on 25 January 2006, and you were
23 spoken to by Inquiry staff and your statement was
24 prepared from your interview.
25 Toward the end of that interview -- I don't propose
112
1 to read it out -- you were asked about a certain police
2 constable, Reserve Constable Atkinson.
3
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You know who I'm
6 speaking about?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember having an exchange with your
9 interviewers about him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I think you spoke about him in rather robust terms?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Derogatory terms, I might say that. I don't propose to
14 read it out. I invite the Panel to read the transcript
15 at their own convenience? It's at page 61.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: It's in the statement.
17 MR McKENNA: Well, part of it is in the statement, I have to
18 say.
19 You say that you had heard that lots of people were
20 saying that about him. Was it the case that he was
21 generally reviled in your community?
22 A. What do you mean by --
23 Q. Sorry, hated. Was there a hatred against him?
24 A. You could say that, yes.
25 Q. Because earlier the Inquiry heard from
113
1 a Mr Kenneth Hanvey, the father of Allister Hanvey, and
2 he was asked about his relationship with Mr Atkinson. Do you
3 know Kenneth Hanvey?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was put to him that he had a certain degree of
6 dislike against Robert Atkinson because of his involvement in the
7 Obin Street tunnel incident. Would you have recalled
8 those?
9 A. I can recall, yes, the incident, but I can't recall him
10 being there.
11 Q. Well, I wasn't going to ask you whether you did or not,
12 but was that the talk at the time, that he had been
13 there, involved in the Obin Street --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would that have been a reason why there would have been
16 an element of hatred against him in the Protestant or
17 Loyalist community?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there hasn't been evidence about this yet, oral
20 evidence, but amongst the statements there is
21 a suggestion that he was also present at Drumcree when
22 there was confrontation there between Loyalists and
23 police. Had you heard that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And would that be another reason why he would have been
114
1 hated by the Loyalist community?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR McKENNA: Thank you, Mr Blevins.
4 Questions by MS DINSMORE
5 MS DINSMORE: Mr Chairman, I won't be long either. Just to
6 deal with the point that my friend raised with you there
7 in relation to Robert Atkinson. Those scenarios that have
8 been put to you about Obin Street and Drumcree, those
9 circumstances, Robert Atkinson would have been there as a
10 policeman doing his duty at that. Is that right? And
11 each of the respective communities objected to the police
12 being present at Drumcree, and another community objected
13 to them being present on Obin Street on duty. Is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when one looks at pages 61 and 62 of the
17 interview -- and I too don't intend to pursue the
18 language, but am I correct in understanding that the
19 reason this police officer was so disliked was because
20 he was particularly diligent in going about his duties
21 and that he was well-known for arresting wrongdoers
22 without fear or favour or hesitation, like when you said
23 he would arrest his ma? Isn't that indicative of
24 a policeman who was determined to do his duty right and
25 properly without fear, if it was appropriate to do so?
115
1 A. Yes.
2 MS DINSMORE: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: That question occupies nine lines of the
4 transcript. I'm sure you can make your questions
5 shorter. They are easier then to answer.
6 MS DINSMORE: I think I have got the answer. So thank you
7 very much.
8 Thank you, Mr Chairman.
9 Questions by MR McCOMB
10 MR McCOMB: Mr Blevins, I represent a number of the people
11 who were charged with the murder of Mr Hamill, indeed
12 a couple of whom you have mentioned already. May I ask
13 you just, if you can recall, the scenario as it was when
14 you arrived at the scene? You have described two
15 crowds, a number of Catholics, about five, you say, at
16 the Thomas Street entrance or in that area. Is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There were others then who were on the other side, as it
20 were, of the body on the ground?
21 A. Yes, the Catholics were on Woodhouse Street, and the
22 protestants were on Thomas Street.
23 Q. And you say that -- and you said to this Inquiry this
24 morning -- you joined the crowd. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
116
1 Q. When you say "the crowd", was that a group of people all
2 together or were there a number of people spread around,
3 across Market Street.
4 A. There was a crowd spreaded out.
5 Q. And when you say a crowd then, it would be an incorrect
6 picture to imagine one crowd of people all, say, like
7 a pack, trying to get at another crowd. There were
8 different people doing different things?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. There were different people standing by, rubbernecking,
11 as it were, watching?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Curious?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But certainly by the time you arrived, you saw no
16 violence being done to any of the people -- or anybody
17 who was on the ground?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The only activity which you saw of a physical nature,
20 would it be fair to say, would be this person, who you
21 think may or may not have been Rory Robinson, trying to
22 get past the police?
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. Was that one sort of effort at a run, which then ceased?
25 A. Yes.
117
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 Oh, sorry, I should have asked you: so far as
3 Dean Forbes was concerned -- you mentioned him -- I
4 think I'm right in saying that you didn't refer to him
5 at an earlier stage but you certainly refer to him when
6 Mr Adair asked you -- do you have a picture of
7 Dean Forbes being there that evening, when you arrived?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would it be fair to say that he was not in any way
10 trying to get involved in the fighting?
11 A. No, he wasn't.
12 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Blevins.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 past two.
17 (1.20 pm)
18 (The short adjournment)
19 (2.25 pm)
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Marc Hobson, please.
21 Application by MR McGRORY
22 MR McGRORY: Before Mr Underwood starts, could I just say --
23 I'm sorry, this has just arisen. A note has been passed
24 to me. It is really a minor procedural matter and it is
25 of importance to the family, but the family also has had
118
1 its screen where the documents are shown cut off and I
2 would like to make an application about having
3 a facility resumed. I'm sorry that I'm interrupting the
4 situation, but it would be better if I did it before the
5 witness started.
6 MR ADAIR: I think the reason for that arises out of the
7 application I made and the fact that the documents
8 aren't redacted as yet.
9 Speaking for myself, I would have no issue with the
10 family seeing the names of the officers because I can
11 see no issue arising about that whatsoever. I'm
12 speaking for my clients.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that.
14 MR McGRORY: It is a simple application. I understand from
15 Miss Kemish that it can be done but it requires the
16 Chair's consent.
17 MS DINSMORE: I have no objection.
18 MR FERGUSON: No objection.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: No objectors? Then it should be done. You
20 say it needs to bit of time to achieve it or can it be
21 done straight away?
22 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm sorry to say I have no idea. The
23 question is whether the family wants to have it done
24 before we hear any more evidence. I think that's in
25 Mr McGrory's hands.
119
1 MR McGRORY: The family are indicating it is not a matter of
2 immediate importance --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, we will carry on.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: We are emailing the back office and doing it,
5 so it will come on as soon as possible.
6 MR MARC HOBSON (sworn)
7 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
8 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the
9 Inquiry. My task is to ask you questions in the first
10 place, and then other people will ask you a few more
11 after that. Can I apologise for keeping you waiting.
12 A. No, you are alright.
13 Q. Can I ask you your full names?
14 A. Paul Rodney Marc Hobson.
15 Q. You have kindly signed a witness statement and we will
16 have it up on the screen at page 80464. I just want
17 to run through that so I can identify it is your
18 statement. Is it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to take you through a number of other documents
23 so that I can get your comments on them. First of all,
24 if we look at page 00562, this is a statement that you
25 made to the police on 9 May 1997 and I want to ask you
120
1 to fill in some detail, if you would, for us, please.
2 You start off here by saying on the Saturday night,
3 26 April, you were at Dean Johnston's flat and you say
4 you arrived at about 10 pm. You were with
5 Allister Hanvey and Jonathan Wright. You went in and
6 had a drink. We have heard from Mr Wright and he has
7 described when Allister Hanvey was wearing that night,
8 which was a silver jacket with orange stripes down the
9 sleeves. What is your recollection of what he was
10 wearing?
11 A. I don't remember what he was wearing.
12 Q. Were you close to Allister Hanvey?
13 A. I was right close.
14 Q. Can you recall at around late 1996/early 1997 ever
15 seeing him in a silver jacket with orange stripes?
16 A. Say again, sir?
17 Q. Seeing him in a silver jacket which was silver or grey
18 with orange stripes?
19 A. No, no. I don't even remember what Jonathan Wright was
20 wearing back then. The only reason I remember on myself
21 was because I have read a wee bit.
22 Q. Fine. And you go on to say in this statement what you
23 were drinking, and about half a dozen lines down it
24 says:
25 "I had a fair bit of drink and was drunk."
121
1 Can you give us an idea of what your meaning of
2 drunk was then, legless, merry?
3 A. No, I had my wits about me.
4 Q. And you tell us further through that statement how you
5 went from Dean Johnston's flat along to a Chinese in
6 West Street, and then picking it up four lines from the
7 bottom:
8 "We got to just in front of the big church in the
9 town centre and the police were moving people up the
10 street towards us. I sat on the wee wall just in front
11 of the church with Jonathan and I could see a body lying
12 on the street in the middle of town."
13 Doing the best you can now, can you help us with the
14 scene? You say police are moving people up the street
15 towards you. Can you give us an idea of how many people
16 and what the atmosphere was like?
17 A. It was going by my statement, there was 30/40 people or
18 something like that.
19 Q. How good is your memory now apart from looking back at
20 your statements?
21 A. All I remember is about 30 or 40 people being pushed up
22 the street as I come down.
23 Q. You say pushed. Were they being violent towards the
24 police or just resisting quietly, or what?
25 A. I can't honestly really remember.
122
1 Q. Then you mention there that you could see a body lying
2 on the street in the middle of the town and it was on
3 the street the traffic drives up, and you didn't see
4 anybody near this person. And you went on:
5 "I didn't see anybody fighting or shouting. There
6 was an ambulance in the middle of the street."
7 Can you help us more with where the body was if
8 I showed you a map or a diagram?
9 A. All right, go on ahead.
10 Q. If we look at the model, this is essentially
11 a photograph taken from just outside Eastwoods and we
12 can swivel it round left or right, if you like?
13 A. If you swing left. Is this, like, Thomas Street?
14 Q. We are at the top of Thomas Street. Let's take it round
15 360 degrees. Okay, we will have to do a screen shot.
16 Hang on a sec. Right, it's all yours now, I think.
17 Did you only see one person on the ground?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Okay. And going back to your statement --
20 A. That's a rough estimate, you know.
21 Q. Of course. At page 00563 back in your statement you
22 said you didn't see anybody fighting or shouting, there
23 was an ambulance in the middle of the street. Was the
24 ambulance there when you arrived?
25 A. I can't even remember, so I can't.
123
1 Q. You can't remember an ambulance at all?
2 A. I can't, you know, remember if there was an ambulance or
3 not an ambulance.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. But obviously -- what I said in that statement is true.
6 Q. Right.
7 A. So it is.
8 Q. Now, if we have a look at page [00568], this is
9 a statement made by Jonathan Wright. I know you are
10 aware that he made, in fact, three statements. This is
11 the second one I'm showing you. It is the one that
12 puts, as it were, the highest case against you. I know
13 you are aware of it, I just want to get your comments on
14 it. Looking at the bottom three lines:
15 "Marc then left me and ran down into the crowd
16 fighting in the middle of the road. I stood there. I
17 would have been standing at the edge of the flower beds,
18 facing the Abbey National."
19 Over the page:
20 "I could see Marc being pushed about by the crowd.
21 I saw him lift his hand and reach out for somebody. I
22 didn't see him hit anybody."
23 What's your evidence about that?
24 A. It is lies, plain and simple lies.
25 Q. Do I understand your position to be this: You walked
124
1 with him, you stayed with him, you stayed back from the
2 crowd. Is that right?
3 A. What I say in my first statement is right.
4 Q. So you didn't go into the crowd?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. You didn't part yourself from Mr Wright?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. You didn't leave him? We know, of course, that you were
9 arrested, you spent a number of months on remand waiting
10 for trial and that at some point -- it looks like about
11 early, perhaps March, 1998 -- you saw a copy of this
12 statement as part of the evidence against you. Is that
13 right?
14 A. It was somewhere -- six to eight months or something,
15 along them lines, after.
16 Q. Okay. We also know that Mr Wright visited you as
17 a friend in prison while you were waiting for the
18 proceedings, on his account eight or nine times. Would
19 you agree eight or nine?
20 A. It could well have been. I can't remember exactly how
21 many times, but he did visit me on a number of
22 occasions.
23 Q. When he came on those visits, you didn't know he had
24 given this statement. Is that right?
25 A. No, I didn't.
125
1 Q. There were phone calls between you. In those phone
2 calls was this statement mentioned? Sorry, that's two
3 questions.
4 A. I can't remember if there was phone calls.
5 Q. Fair enough. That's my fault.
6 A. It has never been mentioned. It was never mentioned, so
7 it was.
8 Q. It is entirely my fault because I asked you two
9 questions at once. Do you remember phone calls at all?
10 A. No, I don't really remember. I'm not saying there
11 wasn't, but I don't know.
12 Q. There came a point then when you were in prison, he had
13 been visiting you a number of times, but suddenly you
14 became aware he had made this statement. Is that right?
15 A. Say again?
16 Q. Suddenly you became aware --
17 A. Once I got my PE papers, that's when I found out.
18 Q. Did you see him again after you found out?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Because you wouldn't allow him to visit or what?
21 A. Aye.
22 Q. Tell us how this worked. In order for somebody to visit
23 you did they need your permission?
24 A. Yes, they would.
25 Q. And so did you just cut off contact entirely?
126
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. No more phone calls to him?
3 A. I can't remember, as I said, if there was any phone
4 calls.
5 Q. Did it occur to you that in fact not only had he given
6 a false statement here, but that if he was a friend of
7 yours and he had seen what you really did, he could help
8 you?
9 A. Say that again, sorry?
10 Q. Did it occur to you that he could help you give evidence
11 for you?
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. The police were saying that you had run into the crowd
14 and you had attacked Robert Hamill. You understood
15 that, I take it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you had an alibi witness, didn't you, who was this
18 man, Mr Wright, who, as you have just told you us, was
19 with you away from the action? Did it occur to you to
20 ask him to give evidence for you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. Because he had changed his statement.
24 Q. But before --
25 A. Once he had changed his statement to lies, I didn't want
127
1 to have anything to do with him.
2 Q. Before you knew he had given this statement, did it
3 occur to you to ask him to give evidence for you?
4 A. No, because I was on remand. I honestly can't remember.
5 I'll say I can't remember because I can't remember if
6 I thought then, you know, if I asked him or not.
7 Q. You are telling us in the statement that you made for
8 the Inquiry that you understand that this statement,
9 this second Jonathan Wright statement, was made because
10 essentially this forced him to give an untrue statement.
11 Is that your understanding?
12 A. The police forced him.
13 Q. How do you know that?
14 A. Say that again, sorry?
15 Q. How did you know that?
16 A. Because I was told.
17 Q. Who told you?
18 A. I can't remember who told me.
19 Q. It obviously wasn't him, was it?
20 A. No, it wasn't him because I never talked to him ever
21 again.
22 Q. So who else could it have been?
23 A. I can't remember, so I can't.
24 Q. Who else have you discussed --
25 A. It might have been when he was coming up to visit. I
128
1 saw him once in the street, once maybe coming to visit
2 me. Maybe I'd say to them, tell him not be coming up,
3 when I'd got my papers. Tell him not to come near me or
4 visit me again.
5 Q. So you think somebody --
6 A. I can't remember, but it could have been anything along
7 them lines.
8 Q. When were you first aware of it; can you tell us that?
9 A. That's what I said, when I got my PE papers.
10 Q. No, when were you first aware that he was making this
11 statement under force?
12 A. When I got my PE papers.
13 Q. How did you know when you got your PE papers that he was
14 forced to make that statement?
15 A. I can't remember when I found that out.
16 Q. Then, if we go to page [00266], this calls itself
17 a statement of witness B. In fact, it is of
18 Timothy Jameson made on 9 May 1997. I want to take
19 you on the over the page to page [00267] and, firstly,
20 did you know Timothy Jameson?
21 A. Hm-mm.
22 Q. How well?
23 A. I wouldn't say well. I knew some of his family well.
24 Q. Okay. And picking it up from about four lines down on
25 the right-hand side:
129
1 "I walked towards the crowd. There was fellows
2 punching each other and I observed a fellow with an
3 Umbro sweater, grey colour and I think blue jeans
4 fighting with another fellow. This fellow I know to
5 see. He lives [it gives the address] and is called
6 Marc. He is also called Muck. I know this fellow to
7 see about town. Marc has very short brown hair, goatee
8 beard and is overweight. I think he was wearing a black
9 leather jacket. I was standing four to five feet from
10 Marc. The street lights were on. Marc was punching
11 this fellow in the face with his fist. That's the
12 fellow with the Umbro sweater on. This fellow was
13 fighting back, but Marc was getting the better of him.
14 Marc knocked this fellow to the ground. He was lying in
15 the middle of the road opposite the bakery on the
16 corner, Number 7, on the side of the street the cars
17 drive up the town. This fellow lay there for about one
18 minute and got up again. I didn't see Marc hit him
19 while he was on the ground.
20 "Marc then started fighting with another fellow.
21 This man was wearing a blue shirt and tie in his mid 30s
22 with short hair, I think ginger colour. This man was
23 trying to stop the fighting and I saw Marc grabbing this
24 man and throwing him out of his way."
25 Were you also called Muck back in 1997?
130
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you have very short brown hair?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. A goatee beard?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you have described yourself as overweight?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you wearing a black leather jacket?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you punching a fellow in the face?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you fighting with anybody else?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you see a man wearing a blue shirt and tie?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you remember that? You remember not seeing one?
17 A. No, I didn't see one.
18 Q. Can you help us with why Mr Jameson would have said this
19 about you?
20 A. You would need to ask him that.
21 Q. We have. What he says was he was forced to make this
22 statement?
23 A. There is your answer then.
24 Q. That's two people who were forced to make statements
25 against you. Can you explain that?
131
1 A. You need to ask them that again.
2 Q. We have been hearing evidence from a number of people
3 about what happened in Portadown generally on a Saturday
4 night. One of the pieces of evidence we heard is if you
5 wanted a fight, that was the place to go. Was that your
6 understanding of it?
7 A. No, I wouldn't put that in them words, no. But I would
8 say, as an intersection or whatever you want to call it,
9 you would get fights there, yes.
10 Q. Did you go there to have a fight?
11 A. I didn't go there. Was I making my way there? No, I
12 wasn't.
13 Q. Then if we look at page [17327], this is Tracey Clarke's
14 statement and, again, I know you have seen it. Can
15 I just ask you a little about her and Allister Hanvey.
16 What we have been hearing is that there is this,
17 what has been described as an on/off relationship.
18 Sometimes they were well in with each other, sometimes
19 not at all. Was that your understanding of it back
20 then?
21 A. I don't remember too much, so I don't. I have read a
22 wee bit about that myself and I take it it was.
23 Q. Did you know Allister Hanvey well enough to know how
24 well he was getting on at any one time with
25 Tracey Clarke?
132
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you give us any reason why Tracey Clarke would have
3 it in for you or for any other of Allister Hanvey's
4 friends?
5 A. The only thing I can think of is that they were having
6 an on/off relationship and she wanted to get back at
7 him, get back amongst his friends to hurt him.
8 Q. What the Panel might be wondering --
9 A. That's the only thing I can think. That's another thing
10 you would seek an answer --
11 Q. Yes, and was your friendship with Allister Hanvey close
12 enough that if anybody wanted to hurt him, they might
13 use you, do you think?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. So let's look over at [17328] then, the
16 second page. Take the first half of this towards the
17 end of the first line:
18 "I met up with Stephen Bloomer at Pound Stretcher
19 and I just sat down beside him. I saw two people lying
20 on the street. One was near the centre of the road and
21 the other was near the footpath close to Eastwoods. The
22 person I saw in the middle of the road I thought was
23 dead as he was not moving. It was at this time I saw a
24 number of persons gathered around the person lying in
25 the centre of the road. These person were kicking the
133
1 person on the ground around the head and body. I saw
2 them jump on the person on the ground. They jumped all
3 over him and kicked him. I saw the persons who were
4 doing this and I can identify them as: (1) Dean Forbes (2)
5 Allister Hanvey (3) Stacey Bridgett (4) 'Muck' (5)
6 Rory Robinson. The other person lying near Eastwoods
7 was being helped by Michelle Jamieson, but I saw persons
8 run up and kick him around the head and body and
9 Michelle was telling them to stop."
10 Now, did you know Dean Forbes?
11 A. Yes, but not like Allister and Stacey.
12 Q. What about Stacey Bridgett?
13 A. As I have just -- yes.
14 Q. Better than Dean Forbes then?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Rory Robinson?
17 A. That's the same again with Dean Forbes.
18 Q. Again, help us, doing the best you can with this: is
19 this a group of people who somebody might have seen as
20 Allister Hanvey's friends, and if they wanted to say
21 something to blacken Allister Hanvey's name that they
22 might add the friends names in as well?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Can you think of any other reason why Tracey Clarke
25 would say this about you?
134
1 A. Words being put into her mouth. I don't know. Only she
2 can answer that. You know, I can make surmises,
3 et cetera, guess, whatever, but the truth only she can
4 answer.
5 Q. When you were on remand waiting for your trial, were you
6 on remand in the same wing as Allister Hanvey?
7 A. I was indeed.
8 Q. Did you talk to him about the evidence against you?
9 A. Well, the first week we were in Hydebank in 23-hour
10 lock-up, so we were, and then we were moved to the Maze.
11 Q. So once you got to the Maze, did you talk about --
12 A. Yes, there were two separate wings --
13 Q. I'm sorry?
14 A. Yes, we did talk, yes.
15 Q. And you went to court from time to time together
16 presumably in the same prison van?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And stayed in the same cells while you were waiting to
19 go up to the court?
20 A. I can't remember, I can't remember that now.
21 Q. But you had the chance to talk about the case against
22 you?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And did you understand that the case against you was
25 essentially this, what Tracey Clarke was saying?
135
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you talk to Allister Hanvey about that?
3 A. I can't remember.
4 Q. Didn't you say, "What's your girlfriend doing fitting us
5 all up?"
6 A. I probably did. I can't remember, I'm sure I did.
7 Q. Did you have any hope talking to him that you would be
8 able to --
9 A. I can't even remember.
10 Q. But you were on remand for murder with a group of
11 people, and as far as you were concerned, at least you
12 were innocent of this. It was your friend's girlfriend
13 who had put you squarely in the frame for this.
14 MR GREEN: I hesitate to interrupt my learned friend, but
15 there was of course a time when the identity of
16 witness A was not known. At what stage it became known
17 that it was Tracey Clarke would need perhaps to be
18 identified before questions of this nature can properly
19 be put to the witness.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: I hear and understand, but the witness has
21 already accepted that he knew it was Tracey Clarke.
22 A. As he says there, at some stage (inaudible) certain
23 stage I would have knew.
24 Q. What stage was that?
25 A. I can't remember again because we are being brought up
136
1 for remand hearings, was it every two weeks or every
2 month up to court. So I wouldn't have knew until I got
3 my papers, which was six, eight, nine, whatever, months
4 later. I wouldn't have knew it was her. Then at that
5 stage, Allister only got out after six months.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you mean that you didn't know she was
7 Hanvey's girlfriend?
8 A. No, that she had made this statement against me, maybe
9 six/nine months later. At that stage Allister was out.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: So is this the position: once you did find
12 out this was part of the evidence against you and who
13 she was, it was too late to talk to Mr Hanvey about it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you in touch with Mr Hanvey once he got out of
16 prison?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can we go over the page to [17329]. Take up that first
19 two thirds in fact. Thank you. This is still part of
20 this statement of Tracey Clarke's, and picking it up six
21 lines down in the middle of line:
22 "I spoke to Allister Hanvey on Tuesday and I told
23 him about what I had seen and I had told the police
24 about everything and that he was in deep trouble. He
25 said he would meet me after work and I met him outside
137
1 my house at about 11.05 pm. He wanted to know what I
2 had told the police and as and I had not been seen by
3 the police, I made up a few things to annoy him.
4 I remember Robert Atkinson coming up and
5 Allister said that [he] had been very good to him, because
6 on the Sunday morning after the incident in the town
7 centre, he rang him at about 8 am and told him to get
8 rid of the clothes he was wearing the previous night.
9 "Since then, Allister has contacted me on numerous
10 occasions and he keeps asking me what I have said to the
11 police. He also said that [that policeman] was ringing
12 him every day to keep him up-to-date with the police
13 investigation."
14 When did you first know about all that?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. Was it as part --
17 A. I can't remember when I first --
18 Q. Can you recall whether you discussed that with
19 Allister Hanvey?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was it a surprise when you did first see that, that
22 Allister Hanvey was somebody who was being kept up with
23 the police investigation?
24 A. I can't remember, but I'm sure it was.
25 Q. Because that would have been a key to the door, wouldn't
138
1 it? A key to the cell door. One of the people up there
2 with you not only has his girlfriend as the primary
3 witness, but he is being kept in touch by one of the
4 police officers. Wouldn't that have been a matter of
5 huge significance to somebody facing a murder trial?
6 A. That's not for me to answer.
7 Q. Didn't it seem to you to be a matter of great
8 significance?
9 A. I can't remember. I'm sure -- seeing it in black and
10 white now, you don't need me to answer that.
11 Q. And your evidence is you don't remember when this first
12 came to your attention?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. So then, Mr Wright, Mr Jameson and Tracey Clarke all
15 gave false statements as far as you are concerned,
16 insofar as they put you in the frame?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you don't know anything about why they retracted
19 their evidence apart from somebody whom you can't
20 remember telling you that Mr Wright was forced to make
21 his statement; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's turn to some police officers. On page [09669],
24 please, you can see the officer's name at the top...
25 Constable Neill
139
1
2 If we can highlight the second half, please. He
3 describes the fighting, and about five lines down here
4 towards the right-hand side of a line, he says:
5 "During this, a male, late 20s, round face with
6 a goat beard and very short hair, wearing a leather-type
7 soft casual waistcoat was near me and I saw him kick at
8 the injured man I now know as Robert Hamill. The male
9 with the goat beard was moved back as best as possible.
10 Other police had arrived at this stage and were standing
11 with Rory Robinson, 20s, short black hair, thin with
12 pointy features. Both these persons were taunting
13 injured people and those that were looking after them."
14 And you know later, of course, there was
15 a confrontation in which this officer identified the
16 person he is describing there -- the first person he is
17 describing there as you?
18 A. ... "late 20s", when I was 19/20. I have just past my
19 late 20s now and it was 12 years ago.
20 Q. Your evidence is, if I understand it, this is
21 a misidentification, it is not you?
22 A. Without doubt.
23 Q. If we look at page [09226], this is the second page of a
24 statement of a Constable Cooke, it was made on
25 27 April 1997. And if we take the first half, it is
140
1 saying on the fourth line:
2 "I recognised the following persons at the front of
3 the crowd: Stacey Bridgett [and it gives an address],
4 his nose was bleeding; [somebody else who] was wearing
5 a multicoloured checked shirt; Rory Robinson... wearing a
6 yellow-coloured shirt with a fine check through it and
7 beige coloured trousers and ..."
8 And then the next name that has been blanked out is
9 xxxxxxxxxx, and it gives an address:
10 "... was wearing a black leather jacket and blue
11 denim trousers. On several occasions while we were
12 holding this crowd back and tried to move them towards
13 West Street, I spoke to Robinson and xxxxxxxxxx and asked
14 them to move up the street. Both refused to move and
15 each of them tried to push past myself and other police
16 on several occasions."
17 If we look at page 11063, before I ask you about
18 this --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just give me the cipher of the
20 deponent?
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Constable Cooke, the same officer giving a fourth
22 statement a month later on 26 May. It says:
23 "In addition to the statement made by me on
24 27th April 1997, the person I named as xxxxxxxxxx was in fact
25 Marc Hobson. I have known both xxxxxxxxxx and Hobson for
141
1 around three to four years as a result of my general
2 police duties in the Portadown area. On this occasion,
3 I made a genuine mistake and put the wrong surname to
4 the face. I'm certain the face I saw in the crowd was
5 Hobson."
6 Is that officer right, that he had known you for
7 three or four years?
8 A. How am I supposed to know that? I didn't know him. So
9 that was news to me.
10 Q. You didn't know him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Right. So he has made a misidentification of you,
13 has he?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it is untrue when he says he has known you for three
16 or four years --
17 A. I'm not saying it is untrue. I don't know if he knew me
18 for three or four years.
19 Q. And then if we look at page 06350, this is the second page
20 of a statement made by an officer we are calling P40.
21 The middle section of this, middle third, three lines
22 down, he says:
23 "I observed two males lying in the middle of the
24 road adjacent to Thomas Street. There was a crowd at
25 that side of the street. I made my way across the
142
1 street to Thomas Street and assisted other police in
2 moving the crowd back. I observed one of the males in
3 the crowd. This male had very short black hair, a black
4 moustache and a goatee-type beard. He was approx five
5 nine tall and was of stocky build. He had a black
6 leather jacket and was wearing blue jeans. This male
7 had been very aggressive and had been taunting the
8 Nationalists and had to be physically moved back several
9 times."
10 Was that you?
11 A. No. He mustn't have been too sure if he gave one
12 statement and then a month later he changes his
13 statement.
14 Q. If we look at page 06352, he is asked more about this
15 and the person he was describing, he says:
16 "Male, very aggressive."
17 Question: "Doing what?"
18 Answer: "Taunting Nationalists, 'Hope he fucking
19 dies'."
20 Were you doing that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Question: "Where were the Nationalists? ... What was
23 taunting?"
24 Answer: "'Hope he fucking dies. 'Pointing finger and
25 saying, 'Hope he fucking dies'."
143
1 Not you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Then if we look at page [09184], I'm putting this to you
4 out of fairness, it is the one and only one witness who
5 said you were at a party at Tracy McAlpine's house after
6 this. If we go over to [09185], he says:
7 "At the house, I recall seeing Pauline, [somebody's]
8 sister, Shelley Liggett, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey,
9 Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, Marc Hobson [and others]."
10 Were you there?
11 A. No.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you.
13 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
14 Questions by MR ADAIR
15 MR ADAIR: I have some questions for you, Mr Hobson. You
16 don't find this amusing this, I presume, today?
17 A. No, seeing I got done years for something I didn't
18 commit, no.
19 Q. You have been sitting grinning during parts of your
20 evidence. Have you found something amusing?
21 A. Maybe it is just what I do when I'm nervous.
22 Q. You have been sitting yawning in parts of your evidence.
23 Are you tired?
24 A. Yes, maybe I am.
25 Q. Or are you just treating this whole thing with contempt?
144
1 A. No. Considering I got time for something I
2 didn't do.
3 Q. I'm not going to go through the various witnesses that
4 Mr Underwood has dealt with in any detail at all, but
5 can you expand just a little bit on why it is that
6 Tracey Clarke would name you and describe your actions
7 as a murderer?
8 A. As I have said, only she can answer that.
9 Q. But you have had years to think about it?
10 A. I can only guess.
11 Q. Well, guess.
12 A. I'll just say it -- your man there, whatever you call
13 him. I'm sorry about that.
14 Q. Mr Underwood.
15 A. Mr Underwood.
16 Q. That she was put under pressure by the police?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Have you made enquiries at any stage, either while you
19 are in prison or out of prison, as to why Tracey Clarke
20 would have named you in the way she did?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. You can't remember?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, try and remember?
25 A. I can't remember.
145
1 Q. Well, try a bit harder?
2 A. Believe me, I can't remember.
3 Q. You can't remember whether you have made any enquiries?
4 A. I'm sure I did, but I can't remember.
5 Q. When were the result of enquiries?
6 A. That's what I have just told you. I'm sure I did, but I
7 can't remember.
8 Q. Who did you enquire from?
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. When did you make these enquiries?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. Is that going to be your stock answer?
13 A. Yes, I can't remember. I don't want to make
14 something up.
15 Q. Pardon?
16 A. I'm not making something up. I can't remember.
17 Q. Well, you made the enquiries. What were the result of
18 the enquiries, you must remember that?
19 A. That's what I have just told you, I can't remember.
20 Q. So you made enquiries about why Tracey Clarke would have
21 named you --
22 A. I never said I did. I said I most likely did, I could
23 have. I never actually said I did.
24 Q. Try and think back as to whether you did?
25 A. I can't remember, that's what I told you.
146
1 Q. You are just sitting lying through your teeth,
2 Mr Hobson, aren't you?
3 A. No, I am not.
4 Q. Had she anything against you that you are aware of?
5 A. Not that I was aware, no.
6 Q. Have you ever fallen out with her?
7 A. No. Not that I remember anyway.
8 Q. Well, I'm sure you would have remembered if you had
9 fallen out with her, Mr Hobson. You are grinning again.
10 I'm sure you would have remembered if you had fallen out
11 with her because that would have been a critical thing.
12 So had you ever fallen out with her?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Had you ever fallen out with any of her family?
15 A. I didn't know her family.
16 Q. Had you ever fallen out with any of her friends?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Let's briefly look at Timothy Jameson. I'm sure you
19 thought about why on earth he named you?
20 A. Well, yes, I didn't know he had named me until three
21 years ago.
22 Q. And no doubt you started to make enquiries then as to
23 why he had named you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you help us at all as to why he might have named
147
1 you?
2 A. Only he can answer that.
3 Q. And we know that your friend Jonathan Wright also named
4 you as going down into the fight, and you can't really
5 help us with that apart from the police pressurised him
6 and put words into his mouth and threatened him that he
7 wouldn't go on his holiday. That's what that boils
8 down to?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The police must have acted appallingly here if you are
11 right, Mr Hobson; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Even just stopping there, are you aware that we are not
14 here today to enquire into who actually killed
15 Robert Hamill? You know you can't be prosecuted any
16 further for that, do you?
17 A. Why do you ask, though?
18 Q. Do you know that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We are here today for a number of reasons, but one of
21 the reasons is because there is a cloud hanging over the
22 police, both who were at the scene of this incident and
23 who investigated the incident. Do you know that? Do
24 you know that's really why we are here? Do you?
25 A. Yes.
148
1 Q. Do you know essentially what it boils down to is that
2 the Catholics and some organisations and other
3 individuals allege that the police really didn't do
4 enough to help Robert Hamill and really didn't
5 investigate this case properly? Do you know that's the
6 general allegation being made?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If you are right -- if you are right -- in fact what the
9 police have done here is, in an effort to convict
10 Protestants of killing a Catholic, they have framed you
11 and attempted to frame others, if you are right. Isn't
12 that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you like to be a policeman in 1997?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And also if you are right, Constable Neill, who
17 identified you as kicking at the head of Robert Hamill,
18 if you are right, for some reason that very day, when he
19 went back to the police station, he decided to make up
20 that account; isn't that right?
21 A. He either made it up or else mistaken identity.
22 Q. What do you think?
23 A. I wanted to tell you that's what I think.
24 Q. Well, he was absolutely certain about his identification
25 of you, Mr Hobson, wasn't he?
149
1 A. He said it was me, anyway.
2 Q. He confronted you in the room and said, "Yes, that's the
3 man that was kicking at the head of Robert Hamill"?
4 A. Yes, he did indeed.
5 Q. So if you are right that he is either mistaken or lying
6 about that, then once again we have a police officer who
7 is potentially deliberately trying to frame a Protestant
8 about killing a Catholic. Isn't that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why would he do that?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Because ironically if you are right, not only were the
13 police pursuing this investigation, but they were
14 prepared to go and frame people for it, frame the
15 Protestants for it; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What about Constable Cooke? Was he lying as well?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you forget the application that was
19 made.
20 MR ADAIR: Guilty. I think for the first time.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The second today.
22 MR ADAIR: I had better get a plea in mitigation going quickly.
23 If you look at the cipher list, you see [Constable Cooke].
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is he lying about what he says he saw you doing?
150
1 A. Yes, considering in his first statement he turned round
2 and said it was somebody else and he knew him for three
3 or four years, and a month down the line he changed it
4 and he knows me for three or four years as well.
5 Q. In fact, it is worse than just lying. What he has done
6 is he has made a statement identifying someone else and
7 then gone along some time later and said, "Oh, hold on,
8 it wasn't him, it was you"?
9 A. A month down the line he changes his first statement
10 that was made.
11 Q. So a conspiracy here by the police to get you nabbed?
12 A. Well, he knew the two of us for three or four years so
13 you'd think he'd have known which one it was in the
14 first place, wouldn't you?
15 Q. Do you think there was a conspiracy here by the police?
16 A. That's not for me to answer.
17 Q. Well, do you think there is?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. But he is lying?
20 A. Yes, he is lying, yes.
21 Q. Now, why would he lie when he says that you were one of
22 the Protestant crowd that night in Portadown? Why would
23 he do that?
24 A. Sorry, I don't know.
25 Q. So essentially, Mr Hobson, as far as you are concerned,
151
1 what the police have done here is in an effort to
2 further this investigation, they have pressurised
3 witnesses. Is that right? That's your belief?
4 A. It is what I have said.
5 Q. They have lied. Is that right?
6 A. That's what I have said.
7 Q. Tell me this -- I'm just going to leave it at this,
8 Mr Hobson -- say you had seen who killed Robert Hamill
9 that night. Would you have told the police?
10 A. I didn't see who killed him.
11 Q. Say you have?
12 A. I didn't see who killed him but.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: If you had seen who did it, would you have
14 told the police?
15 A. Yes, I would.
16 MR ADAIR: Would you have told the police, "Oh, I saw
17 Allister Hanvey"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you have said, "I saw Dean Forbes"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you have said I saw -- any of your friends, just
22 name any of them. You would identify any of them?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If they had done it?
25 A. Yes.
152
1 Q. You would have no fear of doing that --
2 A. No.
3 Q. -- from anybody in the area, any paramilitaries or
4 anybody else?
5 A. No.
6 MR ADAIR: No. Well, I just want to make it clear to you,
7 Mr Hobson, I want to suggest to you you have lied in
8 that witness box practically from start to finish. Do
9 you understand me?
10 A. No, I haven't.
11 Questions by MR McGRORY
12 MR McGRORY: Mr Hobson, I want to ask you some questions on
13 behalf of the Hamill family.
14 A. Not a problem.
15 Q. There is another reason why you have come here very
16 cocky today, isn't there, Mr Hobson? And it is you do
17 not have anything to fear, do you?
18 A. No, that's not the reason, sorry.
19 Q. You do not have anything to fear because you have
20 already been tried for murder; isn't that right?
21 A. Say again, sorry?
22 Q. You have already been tried for murder. You faced
23 a trial for murder?
24 A. Maybe it is just the way I get on when I'm nervous. If
25 that's the way you feel I'm being.
153
1 Q. Haven't you already been tried for murder?
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. And you were found not guilty?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. At that trial, witnesses who had been expected to come
6 forth originally when the charges were brought in the
7 form of Tracey Clarke and Timothy Jameson didn't come?
8 A. No, they didn't.
9 Q. And you were acquitted?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. And you are aware that you can't really be tried again;
12 is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You have everything to gain, I suppose, out of this
15 Inquiry; isn't that correct?
16 A. Have I?
17 Q. Has it occurred to you that you might be interested in
18 finding something out that might overturn the conviction
19 that you do have for affray? You never had that
20 thought, no?
21 A. No.
22 Q. That's all right. That's all you would have to gain out
23 of this; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you have been asked already about the extent to
154
1 which you and the others who were charged along with you
2 might have had discussions about your case?
3 A. Say again, sorry?
4 Q. You have been asked already about the extent to which
5 you and others who were charged with this offence, the
6 murder of Robert Hamill, and who spent time together in
7 the Maze prison would have had discussions about the
8 case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it your evidence that you had no discussions about
11 that?
12 A. No, it is not.
13 Q. But did you in fact have extensive discussions about the
14 nature of the evidence against you?
15 A. Yes, I discussed it, about what had happened that night.
16 Q. Yes. And about --
17 A. I would more likely say, yes, I did.
18 Q. And you would have asked yourselves, you would have
19 asked one of the others, "How did you get in here, what
20 has brought you in here?" Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes, I'm sure I did.
22 Q. And of course those who were charged with the offence
23 and were in prison would have been told by the police
24 when they were being questioned, as you were, what the
25 nature of the evidence was against them?
155
1 A. Sorry?
2 Q. What the nature of the evidence was.
3 A. I would have discussed with other ones?
4 Q. You were told when you were interviewed by the police
5 what the nature of the evidence was, weren't you, what
6 kind of evidence?
7 A. Could you explain that?
8 Q. Sorry, I'll simplify the question: weren't you told when
9 you were arrested and questioned that there was
10 eye-witness evidence concerning your involvement in the
11 murder of Robert Hamill?
12 A. Namely the policeman anyway, yes.
13 Q. You were told that somebody saw you involved in the
14 murder. Is that right?
15 A. I can't remember, but I'm sure I was.
16 Q. Take it from me that that is what was suggested to you
17 as the basis upon which you were questioned. People saw
18 you kick Robert Hamill?
19 A. No, they didn't. People said they saw me.
20 Q. Yes, that's what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hobson: that
21 that's what the police said to you?
22 A. I can't remember, I'm sure they did.
23 Q. And that when you got into the prison, first of all in
24 Hydebank, when you had the opportunity, you asked the
25 other, "How did you get in here?"
156
1 A. No, because there was only -- we were all split up.
2 There was only me and Allister was on the one wing and
3 then he got moved.
4 Q. This is in Hydebank?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You all got out of Hydebank, didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you all went to the Maze?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You went to a certain part of the Maze?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In fact, you went to the UVF wing?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it part and parcel of the reason you needed out of
15 Hydebank, so that you could enjoy the freer association
16 that prisoners had in the Maze; isn't that correct?
17 A. It was because I was getting a hard time in Hydebank.
18 That's why.
19 Q. You've also said you were in 23-hour lock-up; is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That can't have been very pleasant.
23 A. No.
24 Q. And it would have inhibited any communications you would
25 have liked to have with your co-accused, wouldn't it?
157
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. One of the benefits of getting to the Maze was that
3 there was a much more relaxed atmosphere in the Maze in
4 terms of your associations, isn't that right?
5 A. It stopped, for that hour you got out, from being
6 hassled and being threatened. Yes, you had a more free
7 environment in the Maze.
8 Q. In fact there was plenty of opportunity in the Maze to
9 talk to your co-accused; isn't that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And during those months when you were all imprisoned, as
12 you say on false evidence of eye-witnesses, I'm
13 suggesting to you you would have had numerous
14 conversations about the predicament you were all in?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And those conversations would have involved enquiring of
17 one another whether or not they also had eye-witness
18 evidence that put them there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So you would all have known within a fairly short time
21 that you were all there because somebody had said that
22 each of you had been involved in the murder of
23 Robert Hamill. Do you agree?
24 A. Yes, I'm sure I did, yes.
25 Q. And it is as a consequence of that, it is a virtual
158
1 certainty that you might have speculated amongst
2 yourselves as to who might have said such a thing?
3 A. I'm sure I did, yes.
4 Q. You see, you all allege that whoever said you were
5 involved has made it up for one reason or another. Do
6 you understand me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you are all very unlucky. That would have struck you
9 in the prison. Do you understand what I'm saying?
10 A. Yes, I do understand what you are saying.
11 Q. And it would have been natural for you to wonder, well,
12 who could possibly have said this about you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that you might have asked your co-accused, "Well,
15 who said it about you?" Is that right?
16 A. I'm sure I did.
17 Q. And that you might have thrown a few names in the pot.
18 Is that right?
19 A. I can't remember. I can't remember if I knew any names
20 at that stage.
21 Q. Who could possibly have said that of those who were
22 there that night. Was there not some speculation
23 amongst you, "I wonder who did that?" No?
24 A. I'm sure there was, yes.
25 Q. And was there not some discussion amongst you that it
159
1 would be good to know who it was?
2 A. Yes, I'm sure there was.
3 Q. Because obviously if you are accused falsely by someone
4 of being involved in a murder, it is only natural to
5 want to know who could have done such a thing on you and
6 why they could have done it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And are you seriously suggesting to this tribunal that
9 the name Tracey Clarke wasn't mentioned during those
10 months as a possible person?
11 A. I can't say honestly say if it was mentioned during them
12 months because I'm sure it was only once I got my papers
13 I would have found out. I found out who had said what
14 six, seven, eight, nine months, and by that time all the
15 rest of the co-accused went off after six months.
16 Q. By the time you got your papers, they had all been
17 released and Tracey Clarke and Timothy Jameson's
18 statements weren't on your papers.
19 A. Say again, sorry?
20 Q. The Tracey Clarke and Timothy Jameson statements in
21 which you were accused of murder were never disclosed to
22 you at that point?
23 A. I can't remember. Timothy Jameson's -- I never knew
24 anything about Timothy Jameson until -- well, I knew
25 there was somebody else, but I didn't know who it was --
160
1 the name until three years ago.
2 Q. Did you have no discussion with Allister Hanvey during
3 those months in prison as to how he had got there?
4 A. I'm sure I did, yes.
5 Q. Did you not say one person might be by ex-girlfriend,
6 she is a bad article?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. Now, your friend Jonathan Wright, he was a friend that
9 night, wasn't he?
10 A. Yes, he was indeed.
11 Q. He is not a friend now?
12 A. No, he is not.
13 Q. And he is not a friend no doubt because you have fairly
14 frankly said that he made a lying statement about you;
15 isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But he did withdraw that statement, didn't he?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Eventually?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you saying you had no hand, act or part in that
22 withdrawal?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. But we have also heard that throughout the months that
25 you were in prison, Mr Hobson, your friendship with
161
1 Mr Wright continued?
2 A. Before I knew anything of that?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were in fairly regular contact?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. He visited you eight or nine times?
8 A. I can't say how many times, but he visited me so many
9 times anyway.
10 Q. And you would have been in regular telephone contact;
11 isn't that right?
12 A. I can't remember anything about telephone, we could well
13 have.
14 Q. You had access to a telephone, didn't you?
15 A. We did, yes.
16 Q. And is it not correct that you would have phoned your
17 family and friends pretty frequently?
18 A. My family anyway.
19 Q. Did you not phone Mr Wright at his home frequently?
20 A. That's what I just said, I can't remember.
21 Q. You can't remember.
22 A. I'm not saying I didn't. I could well have, I can't
23 remember.
24 Q. I will help you refresh your memory about that,
25 Mr Hobson. Can I have document 21212 on the screen,
162
1 please. This is a log of telephone cause, Mr Hobson,
2 from the Maze prison to Mr Wright's home.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Between 22 June 1997 and 21 October 1997?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, he was phoned from the Maze prison?
9 A. Have you any later dates than that?
10 Q. Unfortunately not. The Inquiry has been asked for that
11 information and I believe it will be obtaining it.
12 A. Because there probably is none.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Because there probably what?
14 A. There probably is none. That may not be any from when
15 I got my papers and found out.
16 MR McGRORY: Why are you so confident there won't be any
17 after 21 October 1997.
18 A. No, all I'm saying, you see from the date I got my PE
19 papers there definitely won't be any phone calls from
20 Jonathan Wright, but I never made contact with him
21 again.
22 Q. This log stops on 21 October 1998. Did you observe
23 that.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When did you get your PE papers?
163
1 A. I can't remember. It was six, seven, eight, nine months
2 later.
3 Q. It wasn't as early at October 1997, sure it wasn't.
4 A. No, it would have been in 1998 some time, yes.
5 Q. You had a committal hearing on 20 and 21 April 1998?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. Your committal hearing was on 20 and 21 April 1998?
8 A. I couldn't tell you.
9 Q. We will be coming to that later, but I'm going to
10 suggest to you that you got your papers in
11 early March 1998. Does that sound about right?
12 A. I couldn't honestly tell you. He could well be right.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember about how long before the
14 committal proceedings you got the papers?
15 A. No, I can't.
16 Q. In any event, there is a good three, maybe four months,
17 five months between the end of this series of phone
18 calls, of which we have the evidence today and you
19 getting your committal hearing papers. Right?
20 You fairly confidently said to this Inquiry there
21 would be no further record of phone calls after that?
22 A. No, from when I got my committal papers, after I got my
23 committal papers.
24 Q. That's all right. Now, Mr Wright has given evidence
25 this morning. Are you aware of that?
164
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he has said that there only were two people amongst
3 those who were charged with this murder in the Maze who
4 would have been phoning him -- either yourself or
5 Stacey Bridgett -- and that the one he was closer to was
6 you and that it is more likely that the person who
7 phoned him more often was you.
8 Now, with some 24 phone calls on this list that we
9 know of, do you accept that many of those would be from
10 you?
11 A. They could well have. As I already said, I didn't even
12 remember making phone calls to him. I could well have.
13 All of them might be mine, half of them might be mine.
14 Q. He is certainly a friend of yours. He has visited you
15 eight or nine times; you are not disputing that?
16 A. I'm not disputing that I could have phoned him either.
17 Q. No. Are you seriously suggesting that during that what
18 I'm suggesting to you was reasonably extensive contact
19 between you and him during your period on remand, that
20 you never discussed the case? Are you suggesting you
21 didn't discuss the case?
22 A. When he come up to visit me?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I can't honestly remember.
25 Q. You have accepted that you would have discussed it with
165
1 your co-accused. You are all in a pickle. You are all
2 in there on the eye-witness evidence of some people that
3 you all committed this murder and you have accepted that
4 you have discussed with each other how did you get here,
5 how did you get here.
6 Now, are you seriously suggesting that when your
7 close friend who was with you on the night in question
8 visited you in prison on a number of occasions, that you
9 didn't discuss the case?
10 A. I'm not saying I didn't.
11 Q. You accept that you probably did?
12 A. I could have well, yes.
13 Q. It would be a natural thing to have discussed with him,
14 wouldn't it?
15 A. I could well have.
16 Q. Will you not say the truth, Mr Hobson?
17 A. I am telling the truth.
18 Q. Which is of course you discussed it?
19 A. I'm not saying -- I could well have discussed it.
20 Q. Did he not say to you at any point during that extensive
21 contacts, "You know, Marc, I have made a statement about
22 this"?
23 A. Say it?
24 Q. Did he not say to you at any point during this extensive
25 point, "You know, Marc --
166
1 A. Aye, yes, he could well have.
2 Q. He did, didn't he?
3 A. Yes, he made more than one.
4 Q. But he did inform you of that, didn't he?
5 A. I'm not saying -- he could well have. I can't remember
6 if he did. He could as well have informed me.
7 Q. You are on remand for murder, Mr Hobson?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In respect of an incident that happened when you were in
10 Mr Wright's company?
11 A. It is 12 years ago now.
12 Q. It is still something that hasn't happened to you too
13 often in your life?
14 A. You are not going to remember everything.
15 Q. This is a pretty big thing?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you and Mr Wright would
18 inevitably have discussed your predicament?
19 A. We most likely did, but I can't remember.
20 Q. And that he had said to you at some point, "You know,
21 I made a statement to the police that night about that
22 night"?
23 A. About that night?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. He could well have, I don't remember.
167
1 Q. And that in fact he almost certainly told you that you
2 were in the statement?
3 A. He could well have.
4 Q. In fact, he had made two statements fairly quickly in
5 succession; isn't that right?
6 A. And the second statement, I only knew about that when
7 I got my PE papers.
8 Q. Then you say you knew about the first?
9 A. I could well have. I most likely did, I can't remember.
10 Q. Is that not what you were really saying to us there,
11 that the second statement you found out about when you
12 got your PE papers?
13 A. No. See, once I got my PE papers and I seen this second
14 statement, I couldn't believe it. And that sticks in my
15 head.
16 Q. Is the reason you couldn't believe it, Mr Hobson --
17 A. Because of what he said, because it was lies.
18 Q. I'm going to suggest a different reason why you can't
19 believe it. You knew he made one statement. Is that
20 right?
21 A. No, I'm not saying that. The reason why I couldn't
22 believe it is because it was lies.
23 Q. Is it that you weren't expecting two?
24 A. I wasn't expecting a second statement. That's -- what
25 it said in it. That's what I wasn't expecting.
168
1 Q. Is it, Mr Hobson, that you were expecting the second
2 statement to have been different than it actually was?
3 Is that the problem?
4 A. I wasn't expecting what was said in the second statement
5 because it was lies.
6 Q. But were you expecting it to say something else?
7 A. I wasn't expecting it.
8 Q. Were you expecting it to exonerate you?
9 A. I wasn't expecting it.
10 Q. You see, did Mr Wright make you aware at any point
11 during his extensive contact with you that he had been
12 notified that he might be called as a witness?
13 A. Say that again, sorry?
14 Q. Did Mr Wright make you aware that he had been notified
15 that he might be needed as a witness?
16 A. I can't remember.
17 Q. You can't remember?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So in those times that you were talking to them, you
20 have no recollection of if he said to you, "They are
21 calling me as a witness, I have to go down and see
22 people about this"?
23 A. No, I don't recall anything.
24 Q. Absolutely not?
25 A. No, I don't.
169
1 Q. Would you look at this series of phone calls that's on
2 the screen. Towards the bottom there is a series of
3 phone calls. There's one on 13 October in the evening
4 time, 17.45. It looks like a 25-second call. Do you
5 see that?
6 A. What date, sorry?
7 Q. 13 October?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Three days later there is another call on 16 October at
10 18.44 -- that is 6.44 in the evening -- and it is only
11 15 seconds?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I would suggest to you that someone is ringing and he is
14 not in. It is a short call, not much of a conversation
15 in 15 to 25 seconds?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Then there are three calls on 17 --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You see they are all in quick succession?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Eight minutes past six through to 35 minutes past six?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They are all reasonably short?
24 A. 28 seconds.
25 Q. Yes, they are all fairly short. So somebody is pretty
170
1 frantically trying to get in touch with Mr Wright from
2 the prison.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that you?
5 A. I said that I don't even remember making phone calls.
6 Q. You accept that you probably did?
7 A. Yes, I could well have, but ...
8 Q. You see there is another call then on 18 October. Do
9 you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it lasts for 11 minutes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that would obviously have been a meaningful
14 conversation if it lasted for 11 minutes?
15 A. Are you saying that's me that has made that call?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. How do you know that?
18 Q. I'm about to tell you why I think that, but do you
19 remember it?
20 A. No, because as I said, I don't remember making any phone
21 calls.
22 Q. You see, there was a very significant event in this case
23 on 17 October. It was a Friday. At 3 o'clock that
24 Friday afternoon, a number of key witnesses in this case
25 were called for consultation with Mr Gordon Kerr QC,
171
1 senior Crown prosecutor in the case. Are you aware of
2 that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No. And on that date, Jonathan Wright was called down.
5 Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he had a conversation with Mr Kerr, and during the
8 course of that conversation he altered his original two
9 statements slightly in that he said that you may have
10 been down with the crowd, you were trying to pull people
11 out, as opposed to that he had said you were may down --
12 implying that you were perhaps involved in the fighting
13 previously, that you were pulling people out. He told
14 him that?
15 A. Sorry?
16 Q. He told him that on 17 October.
17 A. He told him what?
18 Q. Put the document on the screen, [17591]. Top section,
19 please. Do you see the second large paragraph, the last
20 sentence:
21 "However, while in this statement he refers to his
22 friend Marc as being involved in the fighting during
23 consultation, he described him as pulling people out of
24 the fight."
25 Do you see that?
172
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So I'm suggesting that he was trying to help you there?
3 A. The only thing Jonathan said right in his statements was
4 the first statement.
5 Q. Never mind his first statement. Do you agree he was
6 trying to help you when he told Gordon Kerr that you
7 were pulling people out of the fight?
8 A. I don't know, no. The first statement is true.
9 Anything else -- second statement or whatever -- is
10 lies.
11 Q. Well, had it not been for the fact that you told the
12 police you weren't down there at all, that that could
13 have been helpful to you? Do you agree with that
14 proposition?
15 A. Sorry?
16 Q. Had it not been for the fact that you told police that
17 you weren't down at the fighting at all, that could have
18 been helpful to you?
19 A. If I was?
20 Q. If you had been down there, yes.
21 A. If I had have been?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. But I wasn't.
24 Q. I'm suggesting to you that when he told Mr Kerr this he
25 was trying to help you. Do you agree with that? That's
173
1 what he was trying to do?
2 A. The only thing that's true is his first statement.
3 That's the only thing I agree with.
4 Q. That's not an answer to my question, but I'm not going
5 to persist. What I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hobson, is
6 that you knew very well that this consultation was
7 looming?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In fact, all three key prosecution witnesses were
10 interviewed that day -- Tracey Clarke, Timothy Jameson
11 and Jonathan Wright. Do you understand that?
12 A. As I have just said, yes.
13 Q. And I'm suggesting to you that word of this consultation
14 had filtered through to the prison. This was a key,
15 a key day. Do you understand that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Because what turned on this consultation was the
18 decision as to whether or not all of you would continue
19 to be charged with murder. Do you accept that?
20 A. No. I didn't know anything about a second statement
21 until I got my papers, so ...
22 Q. You keep repeating this mantra, Mr Hobson.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But what I'm suggesting to you is that 17 October 1997
25 was a crucial day in the prosecution of this murder
174
1 trial. Do you understand? Because on that day the two
2 eye-witnesses who told the police about you and others
3 drew back. Do you understand?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The tide turned in your favour. It was a crucial day.
6 Will you accept that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what I'm suggesting to you is that it is too much of
9 a coincidence, Mr Hobson, that Mr Wright's home was
10 phoned on the 13th, the 16th and three times on the
11 evening of the 17 October, the very date on which this
12 happened, without it being linked to the events of the
13 day. Do you accept that?
14 A. I don't know.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this. Looking at
16 that list of telephone calls, we can see that in the
17 three-month period from June to September there were
18 15 calls in all. Then we get 11 calls -- rather
19 10 calls in an 11-day period in October.
20 Now, of course they may not all have been made by
21 you.
22 A. None of them might even have been made by me.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: So you can't explain --
24 A. No, I can't.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: -- see the disparity?
175
1 A. No, I can't explain it.
2 MR McGRORY: I'm going to move on, Mr Hobson, to the actual
3 withdrawal of his evidence by Jonathan Wright. The
4 reasons that he has given as to how he came about to
5 have made a statement on 15 May, which he later
6 withdrew. Do you understand where I'm moving to?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us again your understanding of why he might have
9 made that statement on 15 May?
10 A. The statement that he withdrew -- withdrawn his second
11 statement?
12 Q. He withdrew it in 1998, but on 15 May he made his second
13 statement, the one you have said is a lie.
14 A. We are talking about the one he -- that's a lie.
15 Q. I can show it to you again if necessary but --
16 A. We are talking about the second statement, 15 May.
17 Q. It's the second statement, 15 May. The first one is
18 a few days earlier. Now, it is your evidence, is it,
19 that he was pressurised, as far as you understood, into
20 making that statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Of course you gave the Inquiry, when you were
23 interviewed in 2006, the basis upon which he was
24 pressurised. Isn't that right?
25 A. Yes, I did.
176
1 Q. What was that again?
2 A. That he was pressurised by the cops because they put
3 words in his mouth, threatened him that he wouldn't be
4 going on holiday, et cetera.
5 Q. You told the Inquiry that in 2006. Where did you learn
6 that?
7 A. As I had said, I can't remember. I had been told. As
8 soon as I got my papers -- I got my papers, I couldn't
9 believe what I was seeing in front of me, that he had
10 made this second statement, because it was complete and
11 utter lies. And that's what sticks out in my head,
12 reading that statement. I can't remember who told me
13 that.
14 Q. I'm going to suggest how you might have learned that,
15 because in fact that is one of reasons he has given as
16 to how he felt under pressure that day?
17 A. No, I was told back there as well that there definitely
18 was.
19 Q. You were told back when?
20 A. Three years ago when down in the Inquiry team.
21 Q. Who told you?
22 A. The person who was questioning me.
23 Q. You see, you volunteered that to him. It is on page 17
24 of your interview with this inquiry in 2006.
25 A. Yes, I had said it first of all, yes. And then he
177
1 turned round and said that Jonathan Wright has said the
2 same thing.
3 Q. You said in fact he is lying when you were confronted
4 with the 15 May statement. I understand why it was
5 said -- this is on page 178 -- was because he was going
6 to go on holidays. The cops brought him in, he told the
7 truth and then they put him under a lot of pressure. He
8 came back from and then they told him he would go down.
9 He would be doing time. So young, naive, so forth. And
10 he come up with that statement.
11 That's what you told this Inquiry in 2006 as to what
12 your understanding was as to how he made this lying
13 statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Well, who told you about the holiday?
16 A. As I say -- well, I actually knew he was going on
17 holidays because he was going on holidays before this
18 all happened. It is just hitting into the summer
19 period.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember --
21 A. No, I can't remember who told me.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Listen to the question, please.
23 A. I'm sorry.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember who told you about the link
25 between the holiday and the way it was used to bring
178
1 pressure to bear on Wright?
2 A. No.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
4 MR McGRORY: You said you really can't remember an awful lot
5 but you are telling us that you remember that
6 Jonathan Wright was to go on holidays in May 1997.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You remember that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And so then --
11 A. Certain things stick out in your head. Some things --
12 you don't remember everything. It was 12 years ago. It
13 is a long time.
14 Q. But how did you know that he was interviewed by the
15 policeman the day before he was due to go on holiday?
16 A. I didn't, I didn't say any of that.
17 Q. Well, or a short time, because what you have said is you
18 have told the Inquiry in 2006 that your understanding
19 was that he was pressurised because he was going --
20 A. At some stage before he went on his holidays, at some
21 stage. I don't know at what stage.
22 Q. Obviously, it wouldn't have been much pressure to put on
23 him, would it, if his holiday wasn't imminent and that
24 if he didn't make his statement he wouldn't be being
25 going on holiday? Isn't that the point?
179
1 A. If they are putting him under pressure, it is just what
2 I said about him being young, naive, et cetera.
3 Q. Let's leave the young and naive out of it. Let's
4 concentrate on the holiday. What I'm suggesting to you
5 is that you and Jonathan Wright discussed how you might
6 get out of this situation?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you discussed that at some point he was going to
9 have to withdraw that statement?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And he might have raised with you the problem he had as,
12 "How am I going to do that?"
13 A. No.
14 Q. Or he might have told you, "I will tell you what I will
15 do, Marc. I will tell him that he pressurised me on
16 15 May." Isn't that right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And I'll tell him they put pressure on me because I was
19 going on holidays the next day?
20 A. No.
21 Q. That's how you know?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Because it is inconceivable, Mr Hobson --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- that you, in the 2006 interview with this Inquiry,
180
1 could have remembered about the holiday at all. Do you
2 understand me? Nine years later?
3 A. That's what you want to believe.
4 Q. Or, indeed, that the holiday was in any way linked to
5 the making of the 15 May statement. Isn't that the
6 truth of it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You are lying to us now?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, this really has been explored
10 quite adequately.
11 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir.
12 You asked to go to the UVF wing. Isn't that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. That was no accident, was it, Mr Hobson?
16 A. Of course it wasn't.
17 Q. There was a comfort in being on the UVF wing, wasn't
18 there?
19 A. Yes, because I was getting a hard time in Hydebank.
20 Q. It was more than that, wasn't it, Mr Hobson? You didn't
21 need to go on the UVF wing, did you?
22 A. I was going to have an easier time than I was getting in
23 Hydebank, and that's why.
24 Q. But in order to get on to the UVF wing you had to
25 express an affiliation, did you not?
181
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did you not?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Can we have 71092 on the screen, please?
5 A. What do you mean by an affiliation?
6 Q. I'll explain that. You may remember that in order to
7 get on to the UVF wing of the prison, you had to make an
8 application?
9 A. Yes, yes, I did make an application.
10 Q. And you had to specify where you wanted to go?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Because to get out of Hydebank you could have gone to
13 a number of places; is that right?
14 A. Sorry?
15 Q. To get out of Hydebank --
16 A. No, I couldn't because I was too young to go to
17 Maghaberry.
18 Q. To go to the Maze -- are you sure about that?
19 A. Yes, because I was 20 and they actually brought to us
20 Maghaberry. I remember that there. They brought us to
21 Maghaberry before they brought us to Hydebank, and they
22 bring us to Hydebank because it's a young offenders
23 centre because we were too young.
24 Q. You were sent from Maghaberry down to Hydebank?
25 A. No, they actually brought us to Maghaberry to start off
182
1 with and then realised we were too young and brought us
2 to Hydebank.
3 Q. But to get to the Maze, you had to declare an allegiance
4 or affiliation to a paramilitary organisation?
5 A. Sorry?
6 Q. You had to declare an affiliation, which is an
7 association with a paramilitary organisation?
8 A. I had to fill a form in saying where I want to go.
9 Q. And you chose to go on the UVF wing?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And to get on the UVF wing, is it your recollection that
12 the command structure of the UVF within the prison had
13 to accept you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that, of course, they did accept you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And of course you were quite comfortable in the UVF;
18 wing, isn't that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were there any other benefits to being on the UVF wing
21 in terms of support that you might have had in the
22 context of this case, that you can identify?
23 A. As in?
24 Q. As in an association with the UVF might have made any
25 potential witness against you a little bit more cagey
183
1 about coming to court?
2 A. Definitely not.
3 Q. You are smiling there?
4 A. It is what you are thinking. You are going way ahead of
5 yourself. You are thinking what you want to believe.
6 Q. I'm asking you --
7 A. No, that's wrong.
8 Q. I'm just asking to you comment on whether or not that
9 entered your thinking?
10 A. No, it didn't.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, you may be helped to know what
12 range of choices there is if you are going to go to the
13 Maze; in other words, what particular wings and what
14 they stand for. Also how the command structure decides
15 who it will take.
16 MR McGRORY: Could you help us with that? There was a UDA
17 wing, was there not?
18 A. UDA, yes, UVF.
19 Q. LVF?
20 A. LVF.
21 Q. There were Republican wings. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were hardly going to go in one of those?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You had to choose one of the wings?
184
1 A. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: So they were all paramilitary wings?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know how the command structure vetted
5 you? What were the requirements to be admitted?
6 A. No, there was no requirements.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I thought you had agreed that you had to be
8 approved by the command structure?
9 A. Yes, you had to be approved, yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know what criteria they used?
11 A. No.
12 MR McGRORY: Your preliminary enquiry was on 20 and
13 21 April 1998. You will probably not remember the date
14 now, Mr Hobson, it is the final thing I want to talk to
15 you about.
16 Do you remember getting your papers then? They
17 would have been delivered to you in the prison. Do you
18 remember that?
19 A. Papers for my trial?
20 Q. For your trial.
21 A. Yes. I don't remember exactly when, but I remember
22 getting my papers.
23 Q. The system at the time was that a policeman would have
24 called up to the prison, called you down --
25 A. I can't even remember how I got them.
185
1 Q. And that once you got your papers, you would have
2 consulted your solicitor?
3 A. I'm sure I did. I don't even remember if it was
4 a policeman or my sister or how I got them.
5 Q. May we remind you that the system was that they weren't
6 served on the solicitor, they were served on the
7 prisoner. Do you accept that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your next step would have been you read them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that was when you were horrified to find the 15 May
12 statement on the papers of Jonathan Wright?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you were alarmed by that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And your next step would have been to contact your
17 solicitor?
18 A. I'm sure it was.
19 Q. Your PE was coming up, you needed to talk to your
20 solicitor and give him instructions.
21 A. I'm sure, yes.
22 Q. I'm not wishing to pry on whatever advice you got, but
23 part of those instructions would have to have been what
24 Jonathan Wright said about you was not true?
25 A. In his second statement, no, it wasn't.
186
1 Q. And that you objected to that? And it would have been
2 discussed with you that there was an opportunity to have
3 him cross-examined about that?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. You can't remember?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It is pretty crucial now because by this time there is
8 no evidence from witness A or witness B against you.
9 You are there on a murder charge, the others are all
10 gone, you are on your own. You are wondering what the
11 evidence is in relation to you; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And get your papers, and lo and behold your friend
14 Jonathan Wright has a statement in there, 15 May 1997,
15 putting you down in the fighting. And that alarmed you,
16 didn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have already told us that, so don't be cagey about
19 that. And you had to see Mr Monteith to talk about
20 that?
21 A. I'm sure I did, yes.
22 Q. And I'm suggesting to you you must have seen him before
23 18 March because on that date he wrote a letter asking
24 for certain people to be called to give evidence. Okay?
25 Will you take it from me that he did, on 18 March?
187
1 A. Could well have, yes.
2 Q. And that when the time came for the preliminary hearing
3 on 20 April there was no need for Mr Wright to be heard
4 from. You must remember this?
5 A. No.
6 Q. This was a pretty key factor in your case. Do you
7 understand me?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. A pretty key plank of the prosecution case at that time
10 was the fact that your friend Jonathan Wright put you
11 down at the fighting when you had denied that you were
12 anywhere near it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Surely you remember that point in these proceedings?
15 A. Surely I remember?
16 Q. You remember that point in those proceedings.
17 A. What proceedings?
18 Q. The murder case against you.
19 A. Did I remember him?
20 Q. You have already said you remembered getting the papers,
21 you were horrified by what he said?
22 A. I have, yes.
23 Q. Surely you remember what happened immediately after
24 that, because having been so horrified --
25 A. No, I don't because, as I said, that's the only thing
188
1 that stuck out in my mind once I read his statement and
2 realised what he said.
3 Q. You were so horrified --
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. You were so horrified that pretty much ended your
6 friendship, didn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But whatever about your friendship with Mr Wright, you
9 needed to take action in terms of saying to your
10 solicitor --
11 A. I'm sure I would have, yes.
12 Q. You accept then that there is a letter written by
13 Mr Monteith on 18 March 1998, that what prompted that
14 letter was a meeting between you and Mr Monteith at
15 which you instructed him that what Jonathan Wright had
16 said was not right?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you are entitled to ask what
18 instructions he gave to his solicitor. That's
19 privileged.
20 MR McGRORY: I accept that. Would you accept from me,
21 Mr Hobson, that at the very least you had your papers in
22 advance of the 18th and that you had a meeting with
23 Mr Monteith in advance of 18 March?
24 A. I could well have, yes.
25 Q. And that your concern about what Jonathan Wright had
189
1 said to you would have been at its height at this point?
2 A. Most likely, yes.
3 Q. You see, Mr Wright's withdrawal statement is dated
4 13 March 1998?
5 A. And?
6 Q. It is a few days before Mr Monteith wrote his letter.
7 A. And?
8 Q. And it is around about the time that you got your
9 papers. Do you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Hobson, is that you
12 not only contacted Mr Monteith, you contacted Mr Wright?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Somehow or another, whether it was by phone or -- was
15 it? Or whether it was through your family or whether it
16 was through one of your co-accused. Do you
17 understand me?
18 A. Once I got my papers, somebody would have (inaudible)
19 any more.
20 Q. I couldn't make that answer out. Would you say that
21 again slowly, please?
22 A. From when I got my papers, I didn't want to see him any
23 more. So somebody would have passed that message on to
24 tell Jonathan not to be coming up and visit me any more.
25 Because I got my papers on -- the same as that
190
1 statement, something along them lines would have been
2 said, yes.
3 Q. Did you send a message to Jonathan, "That's it, don't
4 come near me"?
5 A. Don't be coming and visiting me any more. I'm sure
6 I did, yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's just wait for the question. A message
8 about what?
9 MR McGRORY: You sent a message to Mr Wright saying, "Don't
10 you dare come back and see me". You were hopping mad,
11 weren't you?
12 A. I wasn't happy, no.
13 Q. No. You have already said that to the Inquiry?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were furious?
16 A. I wasn't happy, no.
17 Q. And that all and sundry --
18 A. Anybody wouldn't be happy, like.
19 Q. -- knew you were furious with Mr Wright?
20 A. Sorry?
21 Q. Everybody who knew you --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We got the point that he was angry with
23 Mr Wright. You have made that point. Let's get on.
24 MR McGRORY: Did you or did you not, Mr Hobson, expressly
25 let it be known to Mr Wright that you were angry about
191
1 the statement?
2 A. I'm sure it has been passed on to him not to come up and
3 visit me, as I have already said, and of course anybody
4 in their right mind would not have been happy once
5 they'd seen that second statement and they saw the lies
6 about them.
7 Q. Did you know that perhaps it wouldn't have been
8 advisable to have direct contact with Mr Wright once he
9 became a witness against you?
10 A. Sorry?
11 Q. Did you know it would know it mightn't have been a good
12 idea to have direct personal contact once he became a
13 witness?
14 A. The only thing I thought of was I didn't want to see him
15 again once I'd seen his second statement.
16 Q. Did you send a message to Mr Wright that the only way he
17 could rectify the situation is to get rid of the
18 statement?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
21 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
22 Questions by MR GREEN
23 MR GREEN: Just a few matters, sir.
24 Mr Hobson, you were arrested on 10 May 1997; is that
25 right?
192
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were questioned for about a day at Lurgan police
3 station, was it?
4 A. That would be right, yes.
5 Q. And then you were transported after charge to the
6 Magistrates' Court. Is that right?
7 A. As far as I remember, yes.
8 Q. And then from there you went to, first of all,
9 Maghaberry?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then I think your evidence is that they couldn't
12 take you because of your age and you were taken then to
13 Hydebank young offenders' centre. Isn't that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How long did you spend there?
16 A. About a week, roughly.
17 Q. You said you were getting a hard time in Hydebank. What
18 in particular was the nature of the hard time you were
19 getting?
20 A. I would only get out for an hour. When I was going for
21 a shower, they'd be saying, "We are coming to get you".
22 Q. Who was saying, "We are coming to get you"?
23 A. The Nationalists.
24 Q. And how were these threats passed on to you, were they
25 directly passed on to you?
193
1 A. I was in the washrooms and the corridor were just right
2 outside the washrooms, that led into the washrooms.
3 They would just stand there.
4 Q. When you first went to Hydebank, were you on 23-hour
5 lock-down or did that happen as a consequence of the
6 threats that you were receiving?
7 A. As far as I remember, the 23-hour lock-up straight away,
8 but then I ended up being attacked in the canteen and
9 then I was put down on solitary confinement for my own
10 protection.
11 Q. Who was it attacked you in the canteen?
12 A. A Nationalist.
13 Q. Do you know the reason why he was attacking you?
14 A. Because they knew who we were.
15 Q. They knew that you were remanded into Hydebank charged
16 with the murder of Robert Hamill; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What were the circumstances that led you personally to
19 decide to seek a removal from Hydebank?
20 A. That was the reasons, because I was getting a hard time
21 because of what had happened.
22 Q. Did you speak with any of the prison officers?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 Q. Who was it advised that you had an option to go to
25 another place?
194
1 A. I can't -- my solicitor.
2 Q. Your solicitor?
3 A. Well, I talked it through with my solicitor.
4 Q. Do you recall was it his advice that saw you initiate
5 the move?
6 A. No, I can't even remember who actually advised me.
7 Q. When the decision was made, did you see that your
8 options really were limited, in that you either stayed
9 at Hydebank or you moved to the Maze; you could either
10 stay where you were or you could move? Are we right in
11 your evidence that you really only had one choice, that
12 was to go to the Maze?
13 A. Without doubt, yes.
14 Q. Now, in the Maze prison, at that time in 1997 were there
15 any non-paramilitary wings that you could have gone to?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So in going to the Maze you had to make a choice of one
18 faction or the other; isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: He said that already.
21 MR GREEN: I wasn't clear on that, sir, and I'm clear now.
22 On 17 October 1997 we have seen the log of calls
23 that are made to Jonathan Wright's home. I think it is
24 at page 21212. And there are a sequence of calls
25 really, the 13th right through to 18 October that you
195
1 have been asked about. You have no recollection of
2 making those calls; isn't that right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Who was in the Maze with you at the time in connection
5 with the same charges on 17 October?
6 A. All of the co-accused were in the same --
7 Q. All your co-accused?
8 A. Yes, Rory Robinson was -- he was in a different block.
9 Q. Right. And Stacey Bridgett and Dean Forbes, they were
10 there?
11 A. Yes, Rory Robinson was in the LVF.
12 Q. And Allister Hanvey, he was in the Maze as well?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You may not have all been together, but --
15 A. We actually all were together, but they were one wing
16 and I was in another. But you could walk up and down
17 the wings anyway.
18 Q. It has been suggested that in fact you made the call or
19 the calls on the 17th and 18th because of some
20 connection with Mr Wright's consultation with lawyers.
21 Do you remember that suggestion being made to you?
22 A. Yes, I do indeed.
23 Q. And it was suggested that it had something to do with
24 you knowing that Jonathan Wright had made a statement
25 against you. Do you remember that being suggested?
196
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could we have page [00569], please? This is the second
3 page of Jonathan Wright's second statement, dated
4 15 May. And you will see there that -- the first half
5 of that, the top half, please. That in addition to what
6 Mr Wright in that statement says, he says that you were
7 doing, he also mentions Rory Robinson was in the middle
8 of the crowd. He was running around like a headless
9 chicken and Stacey Bridgett was trading punches with one
10 person. Isn't that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And those two persons were also at the Maze Prison at
13 the time when this consultation would have been held on
14 17 October. Isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know xxxxxxxxxx?
17 A. No, I do know him, but not personally.
18 Q. Now, on the 10 May when you were arrested, there is
19 a custody record -- and sir, this record will in due
20 course be put on to the technology that we have. It
21 isn't at the moment, I believe. But the address that
22 you give is not the address you presently live at and I
23 think I can say that it was xxxxxxxxxx in Portadown.
24 Isn't that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
197
1 Q. You don't live there any more; is that right?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Do you know where xxxxxxxxxx lived at that time? Can you
4 recall?
5 A. No, I think it was in the Revenville(?) Corcrain area.
6 Q. Is xxxxxxxxxx there?
7 A. Yes, it is indeed.
8 Q. If you can recall xxxxxxxxxx in 1997, could you give us
9 a general description of xxxxxxxxxx from your memory?
10 A. Very similar to myself.
11 Q. Could you just --
12 A. He would have had a goatee beard, short hair, he would
13 have been roughly about six foot, he would have been
14 slightly taller than me, heavy built.
15 Q. And he had a goatee beard and bald head. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR GREEN: I have no further questions.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr Underwood?
20 MR UNDERWOOD: No, thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.
22 MR McGRORY: Before Mr Underwood says anything, it occurs to
23 me that it may be appropriate to seek some evidence from
24 the prison authorities about the system in place at the
25 time, as you perhaps suggested, sir, during the course
198
1 of the examination of this witness.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I simply asked if the list of telephone calls
3 was complete.
4 MR McGRORY: There are two issues. There is the list of
5 telephone calls, whether or not it can be completed,
6 whether or not any more information can be made
7 available as to the identity of the caller.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you will have heard Mr Underwood say
9 that I think they would look to the PSNI to see if they
10 could help since it was the PSNI who provided the list.
11 MR McGRORY: Of course the second issue arising from the
12 prison is the method by which someone is taken on to
13 a wing, to what extent they need to be acceptable to the
14 paramilitary organisations. Unfortunately, there is
15 just no material of that on the papers.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm sure if you discuss with
17 Mr Underwood --
18 MR McGRORY: Yes, thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: You will see if anything needs to be done.
20 MR McGRORY: Thank you, sir.
21 I speak, actually, not alone and I hope that others
22 with whom this has been discussed might also voice their
23 concerns. We have had two very long days this week and
24 these are very important witnesses, and perhaps -- it is
25 now just after four o'clock -- it might be better to
199
1 hear Mr Hanvey tomorrow. I think there are others who
2 share that view, sir. If they shall speak.
3 MR ADAIR: I agree.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I daresay you do.
5 MR McCOMB: I don't wish to spoil the party in a way, but my
6 friend has made an effort to be here and he is here,
7 sir. Subject of course to yourself and everybody else's
8 convenience, we would be happy enough to press on.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: What sort of a load have we tomorrow,
10 Mr Underwood?
11 MR UNDERWOOD: We have got one other witness apart from
12 Mr Hanvey. Two other witnesses, I have been more
13 reliably told.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: About how long do you think they will take?
15 MR UNDERWOOD: I imagine between them probably an hour/an
16 hour and a half.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we can sit until five o'clock.
18 (4.05 pm)
19 (Short break)
20 (4.20 pm)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You are all invigorated, I hope, by your
22 break.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: Allister Hanvey, please.
24 MR ALLISTER HANVEY (sworn)
25 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
200
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Hanvey.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. My name is Underwood, I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
4 Sorry we have kept you waiting.
5 A. No problem.
6 Q. Can I ask you your full names, please?
7 A. Allister Hanvey.
8 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you to look first of all at
9 a draft statement that has been compiled for you. It is
10 at 80392. Just so we can identify what it is, we will
11 flick through the five pages of it quickly.
12 A. Hm-mm.
13 Q. I know it is not one you have signed, it is one that the
14 Inquiry compiled for you, as I say.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it true?
19 A. There are parts of it that are untrue.
20 Q. Which parts?
21 A. I no longer live with my ex-partner.
22 Q. Sorry to hear that?
23 A. I'm not.
24 Q. We will ask no more about that. Apart from that, is
25 there anything that is untrue?
201
1 A. If you want me to go through the whole thing again, no,
2 I can't recollect 30 different things, if you know what
3 I mean.
4 Q. We will leave that to one side then. Can I take you to
5 the statement you made to the police, page [09190].
6 That is dated 7 May 1997.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I want to take you through this so you can tell us
9 how accurate this was, please.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On the first page there, you talk about where you were
12 earlier on on the day of 26 April 1997, who you were
13 with in fact. And then, if we pick it up from the
14 bottom of the page, you say you bought chicken fried
15 rice, ate it outside the Chinese. When you had eaten,
16 you headed off down West Street into the town centre
17 with Marc and Johnny?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's Marc Hobson and Johnny Wright, I think?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we go over the page -- let's have the whole page --
22 you say you:
23 "... got to the big church, I saw people running about
24 the town centre and a lot of shouting in the vicinity of
25 Woodhouse Street/Thomas Street."
202
1 Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How good is your memory about this now?
4 A. Not very good at all. As I say, Mr Underwood, this is
5 12 years ago. This is a statement which I went to the
6 police and made voluntarily, while it was fresh in my
7 head. That's a true account of what happened that
8 night.
9 Q. Okay. Doing the best you can, I want to try and provoke
10 your memory out of this to see what detail we can get,
11 all right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You say there:
14 "There were people shouting abuse at each other.
15 I heard people shout "Orange bastards, black bastards" and
16 just general taunting. I could see that there were policemen
17 in among this crowd. I would estimate there were 10 to
18 15 people plus the police in the general area of
19 Thomas Street/Woodhouse Street/Market Street area.
20 There were only about 5/7 police on the ground
21 at this stage."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Doing the best you can, recalling it 12 years on, can
24 you give us a impression of this crowd? What was it
25 doing?
203
1 A. Mr Underwood, as far as this statement goes, I made this
2 statement while it was fresh in my memory and as far as
3 me recalling things now 12 years on, as in any intimate
4 detail, I can only refer you back to my original
5 statement.
6 Q. I understand that detail may have escaped you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If I go too far pushing you to try to recollect
9 something you are obviously going to tell me.
10 A. I'm just going to refer you back to the original
11 statement.
12 Q. All right. It is an impression I'm after. When you
13 first saw it, was this a crowd that was frightening or
14 a bit jolly?
15 A. I have no recollection, Mr Underwood.
16 Q. All right. You say police were in among the crowd
17 there. The impression this might give is this is police
18 trying to stop violence, police helping out, police
19 keeping order. Can you help us on that?
20 A. I can't, Mr Underwood. 12 years is a long time. I was
21 asked these questions in 2006 and, again, I had no
22 recollection. I have made a statement voluntarily, you
23 know, at the time. That was a true account, it was
24 fresh at the time and I can't give you any more than
25 that.
204
1 Q. All right. Is that going to be the answer I get about
2 any detail I ask you about?
3 A. Yes, pretty much.
4 Q. On this statement?
5 A. Well, because we can go through this statement and you
6 ask me there is an area, two men lying on the ground was
7 clear except for women. If I said that then, that's
8 what it was. I can't remember something that I don't
9 think about, Mr Underwood.
10 Q. All right. Let's have a look then at page [09137].
11 This is a statement that Jonathan Wright made.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And are you aware that he made three statements in the
14 end?
15 A. I am not aware, no.
16 Q. He made one on 1 May and he made another one on 15 May
17 adding some more detail, and then he made one later on
18 in which he said the second one wasn't true. Do you
19 know about that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. This is the one which he says -- and he has given
22 evidence -- about?
23 A. Which one is this -- is this the right one, the wrong
24 one? Which one is it?
25 Q. This is the first one which he says is true, right? He
205
1 said on page [09137] he was with you. You agree with
2 that; is that right?
3 A. If it was in my original statement that I walked past
4 (inaudible) and met up with Jonathan and Marc, obviously
5 it is true, yes.
6 Q. And then if we go to 9138, second half of the page,
7 pretty much in the middle of that:
8 "Allister then started to walk on towards the town
9 centre and shouted something like, 'Follow me down.'
10 I stood on for another couple of minutes talking to the
11 old drunk along with Marc."
12 He is saying that you went walking together, there
13 came a point where you said, 'Follow me down,' and they
14 didn't. Do you remember that?
15 A. I have no recollection of that, Mr Underwood.
16 Q. All right. Go to 9139. Last third of the page. He is
17 describing what people were wearing and pretty much in
18 the middle of that:
19 "Allister was wearing light blue jeans, a track suit
20 top, grey colour, with a zip up the front of it. The
21 top had orange stripes on both arms, which went down to
22 the elbows."
23 Is that right?
24 A. Sorry?
25 Q. Is that right?
206
1 A. Can you repeat it again, sir? Sorry, I'm actually just
2 trying to follow where you are reading from here.
3 Q. Yes, about in the middle of that. Do you see it
4 starting, "Allister was wearing light blue jeans ... "
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. " ... Track suit top, grey colour, with a zip up the
7 front of it. The top had orange stripes on both arms,
8 which went down to the elbows."
9 Was that right?
10 A. That's incorrect.
11 Q. You remember that, do you?
12 A. No, because I'm referring back to my original statement
13 of what I told the police what I was wearing and what
14 the police took out of my house.
15 Q. So it is in your original statement, is it, what you
16 were wearing?
17 A. It is in my original statement, what I was wearing, yes,
18 and if that's what I said at the time, whilst it was
19 fresh, voluntarily going to the police station, yes,
20 that's a true account of what I was wearing.
21 Q. And if we go to page [17247], this is a statement made
22 by a police officer later on. We can give you a cipher
23 for this officer's name but --
24 A. Sorry, sir?
25 Q. We can give you a cipher for this officer's name if you
207
1 need to know it. But if we pick up the second half of
2 the statement, three lines down on the right-hand side:
3 "I knew Allister Hanvey ..."
4 Are you following me?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "... because he was involved in a road traffic accident
7 which I had attended with Reserve Constable ..."
8 It gives another name:
9 "This car accident happened before the Hamill
10 incident occurred and it was investigated by [this other
11 officer]."
12 He goes on to say what car you were wearing.
13 A. Driving.
14 Q. Sorry, small car. And then if we go over the page,
15 first half of the page, here he is describing the
16 incident in the early hours of 27 April, and about
17 six lines down, towards the right-hand side, there is
18 a sentence which starts:
19 "I recall Allister Hanvey ..."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "... wearing a track suit-type top but I cannot give any
23 further description of this garment or of his other
24 clothing."
25 So he had you there on the night wearing a track
208
1 suit-type top.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said in your statement at page [09190] it was
4 a black Cat jacket?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you were standing by the black Cat jacket, are you?
7 A. As I say, if it was fresh in my memory when I went
8 voluntarily to the police station to make my statement,
9 that's what I was wearing.
10 Q. If we go to page 09229, this is a statement of another
11 officer who was at the scene, and I just pick up the
12 last three lines -- we don't need to magnify it because
13 I'm going to turn over quite quickly:
14 "I then returned to the town centre, where the crowd
15 on my arrival were still disorderly. Police then
16 started to push the crowd back up towards Church Place
17 and into West Street. Whilst doing so, I noticed the
18 following persons in the crowd and what they were
19 wearing, namely Allister Hanvey, who was wearing jeans
20 with a dark coloured baseball-type jacket with grey-ish
21 coloured sleeves."
22 You disagree with that, do you?
23 A. I would disagree with that.
24 Q. Did you own a grey or silver jacket with grey-ish orange
25 stripes?
209
1 A. Not that I recall.
2 Q. Did your then girlfriend, Tracey Clarke, buy you a
3 jacket for Christmas in 1996?
4 A. Not that I recall.
5 Q. Can we have a look at page [14896], this is a statement
6 by Tracey Clarke's mother, 1 November 2000. If we look
7 over at [14897]?
8 A. What was the date of that?
9 Q. 1 November 2000.
10 A. Hm-mm.
11 Q. Look over [14897], the second half of the page, if we
12 pick it up about halfway down the page on the right-hand
13 side:
14 "It cost Tracey £175.00 out of Paranoid in High Street
15 Mall. I don't know if it was in the mall in 1997.
16 Tracey knew a girl who worked in Paranoid and she had
17 left the jacket over and Tracey was paying weekly out of
18 her pay so that Allister could have it by Christmas
19 1996. This was a bright silver coat with a black waist
20 band and bright silver arms."
21 Does that jog your memory?
22 A. No. This is a statement from Tracey Clarke's mother?
23 Q. Hm-mm.
24 A. With a complete history of psychiatric, mental issues?
25 It is completely false.
210
1 Q. Completely false?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you do have an ability to help us about this. What
4 she says about this coat is completely false?
5 A. I have no recollection of any of this.
6 Q. Which is it?
7 A. I have no recollection.
8 Q. Why was it completely false a moment ago?
9 A. Because it is completely false because this woman has
10 a complete history of psychiatric issues. Why would she
11 make that statement when it is false?
12 Q. Would you like to reflect on some of those answers?
13 A. In what way?
14 Q. What's your evidence?
15 A. My evidence is I have absolutely no recollection of this
16 jacket or do not know why this lady made this statement.
17 Q. Because it is completely false?
18 A. Because it is not true.
19 Q. Right. So it is not just you have no recollection, it
20 is false to say that you had one?
21 A. It is just not true.
22 Q. Okay. Well let's have a look at page [17338], can we?
23 The statement of Jim Murray. What have you got to say
24 about him?
25 A. What have I got to say about him? He was my ex-wife's
211
1 stepfather.
2 Q. Incapable of telling the truth, like the mother?
3 A. That's up to him.
4 Q. Right. Let's have a look at page [17340] then, shall
5 we, on this statement? The final third of it. About
6 halfway down this section in the middle:
7 "Tracey had bought him a silver jacket from Paranoid
8 for that Christmas, that's 1996,
9
10 and I never saw it after that Hamill incident. The
11 jacket was silver, like anorak material without the
12 lining in it. I remember the jacket had an orange
13 stripe on the sleeves. The jacket only came to his
14 waist and it looked too small for him."
15 What do you say about that?
16 A. I don't know why he said that.
17 Q. Is this the position: you do not remember whether you
18 had a jacket like that or not --
19 A. I have no recollection at this time.
20 Q. So it is just as likely that this is true as that it is
21 false; is that right?
22 A. What are these people saying and what am I saying.
23 That's what they said and I'm telling you what I said.
24 I gave a full, true account of what I was wearing at the
25 time of the incident two weeks afterwards.
212
1 Q. Why are you answering questions I'm not asking,
2 Mr Hanvey? I didn't ask you whether you were wearing
3 this as seen by them. I'm asking --
4 A. I don't recall owning a jacket with silver -- whatever.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is not quite the same as saying you never
6 had such a jacket, is it?
7 A. No.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes? So you are not saying you never had
9 such a jacket?
10 A. I could say I never had such a jacket because I can't
11 remember ever owning such a jacket.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I see.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Can I ask to you look at
14 page [80643]? This is a statement made by a Mr Trevor
15 Leatham. Do you remember him?
16 A. I don't even know who this man is.
17 Q. Okay. Can we look over at page [80644]? Paragraph 7:
18 "While Allister Hanvey was in prison on remand, I
19 was working on his wing one night. I bumped into
20 Allister there and asked him about the incident and the
21 alleged murder of Robert Hamill. I asked him if he had
22 in fact done what was alleged. He said he didn't know
23 because couldn't remember anything about what he did
24 that night."
25 Do you remember that?
213
1 A. That's just total and utter lies. I don't even know --
2 what's this man's name again?
3 Q. Trevor Leatham.
4 A. I don't even know who this man is.
5 Q. So you utterly rule out the possibility that this
6 happened and that you have got a memory lapse about
7 this; is that right?
8 A. Totally -- a prison officer obviously known in the Maze
9 prison, is asking me questions like that there. That
10 just didn't happen.
11 Q. Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean by that that a prison officer in the
13 Maze daren't ask you such a question?
14 A. Prison officers -- they spoke to you. They don't ask
15 you questions.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: They never ask you a question about that sort
17 of thing?
18 A. That there? Never.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Even if they know you?
20 A. I don't know who this man is.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be simply not done for a prison
22 officer who knew you to ask you a question like that?
23 A. I didn't know any prison officers.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not asking you that. Just listen to the
25 question.
214
1 A. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it be unheard of for a prison officer
3 who knows a prisoner to ask him a question like that?
4 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't know.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: If we go on in paragraph 8:
7 "I discussed the incident itself with
8 Robert Atkinson within about one week of it happening."
9 Do you know Mr Robert Atkinson?
10 A. I know Mr Robert Atkinson, yes.
11 Q. Within about one week of it happening:
12 "I mention --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I know, and I'm sure Mr Underwood knows.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry, long day:
15 "I mentioned to him the allegation that police had
16 sat in the Land Rover and watched the assault. He said
17 that that was rubbish. He said the four of them were in
18 the Land Rover going up the other side of the street
19 when they'd seen a fight break out at the corner of
20 Woodhouse Street. He said they went on up the town and
21 then came back down to where the fight was taking
22 place."
23 Going over the page:
24 "When they got to the scene of the fighting, he saw
25 Allister Hanvey standing back watching the fight.
215
1 Robert Atkinson told me that Allister was either drunk or high on
2 drugs so he told him to 'fuck off home out of the road'.
3 Allister apparently stood and argued with Robert Atkinson for
4 a while."
5 Were you drunk or high on drugs?
6 A. No, I have no recollection of this here, what you are
7 reading out to me. I have no recollection of this.
8 Q. Any recollection of seeing this police officer on the
9 night?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No recollection of being told by any police officer to
12 get off home?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Or of standing and arguing with the police?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can I ask you about people that we know were involved in
17 events one way or another in the middle of Portadown on
18 27 April 1997? Davey Woods? Do you know him?
19 A. I know a David Woods, yes, but just know David Woods
20 to pass in the street, that's it.
21 Q. That's all I'm asking you about, whether you knew them,
22 the degree to which you knew these people.
23 Rory Robinson?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Andrew Allen, he was called Fonzy at the time?
216
1 A. No.
2 Q. Dean Forbes?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Stacey Bridgett?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Wayne Lunt?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Marc Hobson?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Of course you were with him, weren't you, anyway?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can we have a look to see what Tracey Clarke had to say
13 about the events? That's [17327]. I'm sure you are
14 very familiar with this. Look at the second page of it,
15 [17328]. I'll remind you anyway, the first three
16 quarters of it, on the first line towards the right-hand
17 side:
18 "I met up with Stephen Bloomer at Pound Stretcher
19 and I just sat down beside him. I saw two people lying
20 on the street. One was near the centre of the road and
21 the other was near the footpath close to Eastwoods. The
22 person I saw in the middle of the road I thought was
23 dead as he was not moving. It was at this time I saw
24 a number of persons gathered around the person lying in
25 the centre of the road. These persons were kicking the
217
1 person on the ground around the head and body. I saw
2 them jump on the person on the ground. They jumped all
3 over him and kicked him. I saw the persons who were
4 doing this and I can identify them as: (1) Dean Forbes
5 (2) Allister Hanvey (3) Stacey Bridgett (4) 'Muck' (5)
6 Rory Robinson. The other person lying near Eastwoods
7 was being helped by Michelle Jamieson but I saw persons
8 run up and kick him around the head and body and
9 Michelle was telling them to stop. At that time, I saw
10 a number of police behind the crowd who were attacking
11 the two persons lying on the ground."
12 Now, is any of that true?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know why she would make this statement?
15 A. Well, as we know through previous paperwork, me and
16 Tracey had an on and off relationship, and I do believe
17 in my opinion that this was concocted by the police and
18 Andrea McKee, through time from the original time of the
19 incident until the time that we were charged.
20 As we now know, if I'm not wrong in saying that
21 when Tracey Clarke was brought in first everything was
22 okay. Andrea McKee secretly met the police, obviously
23 Tracey's aunty, through times, hearsay this, hearsay that,
24 and they have come up with this story.
25 Q. Okay. She made this statement on the late evening of
218
1 9 May 1997, going into the early hours of 10 May. You
2 were then arrested pretty well immediately afterwards,
3 weren't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did you first become aware that she was the primary
6 witness against you?
7 A. Well, it was sort of a hunch.
8 Q. You were going through one of your off periods at the
9 time?
10 A. One of many.
11 Q. So your immediate assumption was that she put --
12 A. Pretty much so. Her aunty and I pretty much didn't get
13 on because she was the sort of woman that gloated on
14 other people's misfortunes within the club, the martial
15 arts club, which pretty much I didn't -- it is not me.
16 So I didn't really, but we just didn't get on. Not
17 everybody in the world gets on.
18 Q. So did you assume, before you found out who had actually
19 made the statement, that Andrea McKee had had a hand in
20 this?
21 A. Not at that point.
22 Q. So your hunch was it was Tracey?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did you find out it was a good hunch?
25 A. Pretty much through time, through paperwork. I could
219
1 not give you an exact date or time, but we all know now
2 that Andrea McKee had met up with police officers, of
3 which names I wouldn't have a clue, at a graveyard to
4 sort this out, to bring a 16/17 year-old girl into the
5 police station, concoct a story to take the heat off
6 themselves.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Just pause there.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: I understand the case you want to make about
9 it, but would you answer my questions?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. When did you first find out it was in fact Tracey?
12 A. I couldn't give you a date or time.
13 Q. So you were arrested, you were interviewed?
14 A. Hm-mm.
15 Q. Which took some days, I think, did it, the interviewing?
16 A. I was arrested from my mother's house and then I think
17 maybe transferred to Hydebank possibly the next day, I'm
18 not sure, I couldn't tell you.
19 Q. And then kept in custody for about six months?
20 A. Roughly.
21 Q. Was it while you were in custody that you realised it
22 was Tracey who had given the evidence?
23 A. As I said to you, it was a hunch from the start.
24 Q. You have told us that. What I'm asking you about is
25 something quite different. I'm asking you when you
220
1 found out that it was Tracey that made the statement?
2 A. I'm unable to tell you the answer to that because I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Why is that?
5 A. I don't know.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: What event led you to realise that it was
7 Tracey Clarke?
8 A. It was probably -- I honestly cannot answer that
9 question.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Can't or won't?
11 A. Can't.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's go on in the statement. If we go
14 further down in the page, the last ten lines or so
15 towards the right-hand side:
16 "They later moved us up to West Street."
17 Are you following?
18 A. Yes, I have got it now, yes.
19 Q. "It was at this time I spoke to one of the police whom I
20 know to be ..."
21 And she gives the name but we're calling him [Robert
22 Atkinson]. My
23 apologies for not:
24 "I asked him if the two men who'd been kicked, were
25 they okay and he shook his head. We then went on to the
221
1 party at Tracy McAlpine's house at ... I'm not sure of
2 the name of the new estate. There was a good crowd at
3 the party and everybody was discussing what happened in
4 the town centre."
5 Did you go to that party?
6 A. I have no recollection, as I said at the start,
7 Mr Underwood. Whatever I said in my original statement
8 is a full and true account of what happened that night.
9 Q. Right. Then if we go down on [17329], she talks about
10 speaking to you the Tuesday afterwards, telling you what
11 she told the police. Is it right that you saw her
12 between the events of 27 April and you being arrested?
13 A. I have no recollection of any of this that has been said
14 here.
15 Q. So you have no recollection of seeing her between the
16 events of 27 April and you being arrested? Is that
17 accurate?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Okay. Can we go to page [00266] and have a look at
20 Timothy Jameson's statement? You can see this was made
21 on 9 May 1997 and if we look at page [00268], the first
22 half, four lines down on the right-hand side:
23 "I looked around and I saw Allister Hanvey kick and
24 punch this fellow who was lying on the ground. This
25 fellow was lying in the middle of the street about
222
1 opposite Eastwoods Clothing. I was about nine feet from
2 him. The fellow was just lying there with his hands at
3 his side. He didn't move. This fellow was wearing
4 a black coloured jacket. I think he had black hair. I
5 saw Allister Hanvey kick this fellow three or four times
6 while he was on the ground. The kicks were to the
7 fellow's chest area. I know Hanvey to see for about
8 three years. I can't remember what Hanvey was wearing."
9 Did you know Timothy Jameson?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When did you first find out that he was another witness
12 against you?
13 A. It wouldn't actually have been that long ago. Exact
14 times and dates, I have no idea.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: No one has asked you for exact times and
16 dates.
17 A. I don't know when. I don't know anything about it.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you find out while you were in custody?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you find out when you were in custody that this
21 statement was to be part of the evidence against you?
22 A. No. I can't remember being in custody 12 years ago. I
23 was in custody 12 years ago. You are asking me specific
24 things I can't answer.
25 Q. What I'm asking you about is whether you can remember
223
1 the two principal pieces of evidence against you, one
2 from your girlfriend and one from this man?
3 A. I can remember the one, obviously. As I've said to you,
4 I put two and two together. It is my opinion that
5 that's what happened, but as far as Timothy Jameson was
6 concerned, I didn't -- I knew there was a second
7 witness, but the contents of it I didn't know nothing
8 about.
9 Q. Can we have a look then at page 80036? This is
10 a statement by the officer, Robert Atkinson, made for
11 the purposes of this Inquiry, and if I take you to
12 paragraph 39, which is at page 80042, perhaps we can
13 look at paragraph 39:
14 "I knew Allister Hanvey through the Tae Kwon Do club
15 where my daughter was a member. I do recall that Hanvey
16 was in the crowd on 26/27 April 1997 and that I saw him
17 on a couple of occasions. Sergeant P89 did ask me
18 who that guy is. I told him to be careful of him; that
19 he did martial arts."
20 Is that right?
21 A. That I do martial arts? Yes, I did.
22 Q. Is it right that he saw you in the crowd?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 Q. How could he have seen you in the crowd if you weren't
25 in it?
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1 A. I have no idea.
2 Q. If we look at --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you in the crowd?
4 A. As I said, my statement from 1997 states that I was on
5 the town at the time of the incident, and that is a true
6 account. So if I was on the town, I could have been
7 seen.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You have no doubt read your statement.
9 A. Oh, yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Rather carefully, I expect.
11 A. Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: So you will remember now what was in the
13 statement?
14 A. No, I recall the statement. Whatever was said in that
15 statement is a true account.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Listen to my question, please. You no doubt
17 remember what the statement says?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Then perhaps you can tell me, do you
20 remember from that statement whether or not you were in
21 the crowd?
22 A. No.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's have a look at the evidence of that
25 sergeant, by way of a statement he made. We can see
225
1 this at page [11084], second half of the page. He
2 starts this by saying:
3 "There was about forty Loyalists at this stage. There
4 was one particular individual who was very hostile. He
5 was very reluctant to move back and had to be physically
6 forced by myself by pushing him back. It was clear to
7 me that this individual was close to assaulting me. I
8 can recall ..."
9 This is Robert Atkinson:
10 "... saying words to the effect, 'Do you know who he
11 is? Watch him, that fellow is an expert or black belt
12 in martial arts.' He mentioned the fellow's name as
13 Hanvey, but I certainly didn't know him. I am unable to
14 remember what clothing this man was wearing."
15 So there is this police sergeant saying you were
16 pointed out to him as a warning because you were
17 a martial arts expert. You were very hostile. You had
18 to be physically forced back and it was clear to this
19 sergeant that you were very close to assaulting him.
20 What do you say about that?
21 A. I say I have no recollection of any of that.
22 Q. Were you in the habit of getting involved in crowds and
23 getting close to assaulting police sergeants?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So is this the sort of thing that might stick in the
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1 mind, is it, if you did it?
2 A. Why would I want to assault the police officer?
3 Q. I'm asking you whether it would stick in the mind if you
4 did it?
5 A. If I was to assault a police officer?
6 Q. Hm-mm.
7 A. I'm sure it would.
8 Q. Do we follow then your evidence is this couldn't have
9 happened?
10 A. This couldn't have happened. This is just not true.
11 Q. Can we have a look at page [17361]? This is a statement
12 of a police officer who talked to your parents just
13 after you had been arrested. This is on the Sunday of
14 11 May 1997 and I want to pick up the second half of
15 this about three lines in on the right-hand side:
16 "Kenneth then went to his brother Thomas's house...
17 and spoke to Allister who informed him of the fight.
18 Mr Hanvey further related how Allister had told him that
19 he'd helped police to keep the crowd back and
20 Mr Kenneth Hanvey suggested that this policeman would be
21 giving evidence on behalf of Allister Hanvey. Mr Hanvey
22 refused to identify this policeman."
23 Did you tell your father about the fight?
24 A. I have no recollection.
25 Q. On 11 May 1997, when your father told police that you
227
1 helped police keep the crowd back and that a policeman
2 was giving evidence, was he lying to the police?
3 A. I have no idea. I can't answer that question.
4 Q. Is your father in the habit of lying to police?
5 A. I wouldn't imagine so.
6 Q. Can you think of any reason why your father would have
7 said this to the police on 11 May?
8 A. I can't answer that question.
9 Q. You can answer that question. Can you think of any
10 reason why your father would have said this to the
11 police?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Perhaps it was because it was true?
14 A. I can't think of any reason.
15 Q. What did you do after you saw the events of 27 April in
16 the middle of town?
17 A. You would have to refer back to my original statement.
18 Q. In your original statement -- let me help you -- you
19 have told the police that you went to your uncle Tommy's
20 house after staying around town for about quarter of an
21 hour, half an hour?
22 A. If that's what it says in my original statement.
23 Q. That was true, was it?
24 A. That's true, yes.
25 Q. And what your father is saying here to the police
228
1 on 11 May is that's where you were when he came to get
2 you at about 9 o'clock on the following morning. Is
3 that true?
4 A. If that's what my father said and what I said in the
5 statement, yes, that's true.
6 Q. Was that a false alibi that you and the family
7 cooked up?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are you sure about that?
10 A. Positive.
11 Q. Do you understand that if you lie to the Panel you are
12 liable to go to prison.
13 A. Yes, I fully understand.
14 Q. And I want you to be quite clear, did you cook up
15 a false alibi for what you had done from about 2 o'clock
16 in the morning of 27 April until about 9 o'clock in the
17 morning on 27 April?
18 A. Absolutely not.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: That may be a convenient moment.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly. We shall sit at 10 o'clock
21 tomorrow morning.
22 Will you be here, please, at 10 o'clock tomorrow
23 morning?
24 A. That's okay, yes.
25 (5.02 pm)
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1 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)
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1 I N D E X
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MR JONATHAN WRIGHT (continued) .................. 1
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Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 1
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Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 55
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Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 56
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Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 57
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Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 61
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Further questions by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 64
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MRS CAROL ANN JONES (sworn) ...................... 66
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Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 66
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Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 76
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Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 77
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Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 84
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Questions by MR BERRY ........................ 89
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DONALD BLEVINS (sworn) ........................... 92
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Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 92
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Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 101
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Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 101
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Questions by MR McKENNA ...................... 112
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Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 115
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Questions by MR McCOMB ....................... 116
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Application by MR McGRORY ........................ 118
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MR MARC HOBSON (sworn) ........................... 120
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Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 120
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Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 144
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Questions by MR GREEN ........................ 192
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MR ALLISTER HANVEY (sworn) ....................... 200
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Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 200
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