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Hearing: 11th March 2009, day 26

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Wednesday, 11 March 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 26

1 Wednesday, 11 March 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (10.41 am)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr O'Hare, the assessment which is to be

6 sought is not an individual assessment on each officer.

7 MR O'HARE: We appreciate that, sir.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: That is impossible because, of course, the

9 PSNI's resources are not without limit. From past

10 experience, it would take about a year and so there will

11 be an assessment based upon what has just happened, and

12 we begin on the assumption that until the recent

13 killings there was no case made out for anonymity. So

14 one has to see whether what has happened recently

15 changes and tips the balance.

16 If it is said that there should be assessments for

17 more than one category of officer, then no doubt in

18 discussion with Mr Underwood, such categories can be

19 spelled out.

20 MR O'HARE: Yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: So that we can keep to a minimum -- to have

22 the minimum delay -- the number of separate reports that

23 are needed.

24 MR O'HARE: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. And we shall be rising for the

1 lunch break at quarter to one today so that those who

2 wish to do so will have the opportunity to attend the

3 peace demonstration.

4 Yes, Mr Underwood?

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Rory Robinson then, please.

6 MR RORY ROBINSON (sworn)

7 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

8 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Robinson.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the Inquiry.

11 Can I ask you your names, please?

12 A. Rory Robinson.

13 Q. Thank you. You know we are interested in the events of

14 the early hours of 27 April 1997, and if I understand it

15 right, you were one of the those who was on the bus

16 coming back from the Coach Inn. Is that correct?

17 A. From my statement, yes.

18 Q. And that if we look at the map in front of you, that

19 dropped off, we know, in the area towards the top

20 right-hand corner of this map where there are a number

21 of letters and arrows: A, B, C. Is that your

22 recollection?

23 A. From when I read my statement, yes.

24 Q. And when you say you read your statement, which

25 statement are you referring to?

1 A. The ones given by my solicitor.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. A couple of weeks ago.

4 Q. That is the one that is not signed; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But it is true, is it?

7 A. According to them, yes.

8 Q. According to?

9 A. According to my statements.

10 Q. I'm sorry. I'm asking you about the statement that you

11 are referring to and that is the one that your solicitor

12 gave you a couple of weeks ago?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we just have a look at page [81135]? Is that the

15 one you are talking about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So is that statement accurate?

18 A. As far as I know, yes.

19 Q. Right, thanks. Let's go back to the map then, if we

20 can.

21 So as I understand it, you were walking up from that

22 area that is A, B, C on there towards the West Street

23 end of town. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you just in your own words from your recollection,

1 never mind what's in the statement, tell us what

2 happened, as you did there?

3 A. I can't remember. My memory is blank. From my

4 statement, I was able to bring it all back, sort of

5 thing.

6 Q. Complete blank?

7 A. A blank, yes.

8 Q. Do you remember being arrested for murder?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember being interviewed at great length for

11 that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you remember being on remand for about six months for

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you have got no recollection of the event itself?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Why is that?

19 A. 12 years ago.

20 Q. When did you first lose your memory about that?

21 A. Just the statements have brought things back.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not an answer to the question. Just

23 put the question again, Mr Underwood, please.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: When did you first lose your memory about the

25 events of the night?

1 A. I'm not sure.

2 Q. If we look at page [81137], paragraph 11, you say there:

3 "I think I was one of the first to get off the bus."

4 Do you remember that now?

5 A. No.

6 Q. This statement was given to you a couple of weeks ago,

7 you say?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that right? It was compiled from an interview that

10 you gave with the Inquiry I think about two years ago.

11 Do you remember that interview?

12 A. In Lisburn?

13 Q. Wherever it was, do you remember giving it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you remember the events when you were interviewed?

16 A. No, my solicitor give me the wee transcripts a week

17 before I done that interview in Lisburn.

18 Q. Transcripts of your interviews by the police?

19 A. Yes, I read through them before I done that as well.

20 Q. I see. If we look at page [01038], what I want to show

21 you is an account given by a witness of events on the

22 night, all right? And this is a man who lived in a flat

23 that was near the British Legion on Thomas Street. What

24 he says is:

25 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two

1 ladies walking in the direction the town centre from the

2 fire station. One lady said not to walk any further as

3 a crowd of lads were standing the corner of the bakery,

4 to which the man applied, "This is a free country and

5 I'll walk where the f*** I like."

6 "At this, he shouted to the fellows, "Do you want a

7 fight?" This was shouted about two, maybe three times

8 before the crowd at the bakery responded. Then from

9 this, both sides started provoking each other. The man

10 that had been doing most the talking then walked out to

11 the middle of the road placing his bottle to the ground.

12 He raised his hands into the air and waved as he

13 repeatedly said, "Come on then". Eventually, one man

14 stepped out from the crowd at the bakery and shouted,

15 "I'll take you then". At this point the ladies that

16 were with the two men shouted for them to stop and walk

17 home. But the provoking became worse until both men

18 were about a foot away and sizing each other up with not

19 one ready to throw a punch until another man broke from

20 the crowd at the bakery, ran between the both and

21 punched the one facing the town and ran off in the

22 direction of St Mark's church.

23 "The one who received the blow to his face then

24 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after

25 the man who'd thrown the first punch. Then one by one,

1 the crowd started to run in the direction of the fight

2 being followed by the man and both ladies who had been

3 with the person who started the provocation. The police

4 tried to break up the small crowd without siding with

5 either side, trying to calm the situation. But having

6 no success, they had to call for more police to control

7 the crowd.

8 "Two cars pulled into the middle of the town, one

9 marked car and an unmarked Sierra. The police then ran

10 in the direction of St Mark's church. One man was then

11 brought to the Land Rover and placed inside until the

12 fight died down. The ambulance arrived and stretchered

13 one man away."

14 Do you follow there that what he is describing is

15 that there is a bunch the Catholics walking up the

16 street but they are around the British Legion end, and

17 there is a bunch of people, perhaps Protestants, who

18 turn up at the Number 7 Bakery at the top of

19 Thomas Street. The two come together outside Number 7

20 Bakery, one of the Protestants strikes the first blow

21 and the fight starts from there. That is what he is

22 describing. Do you understand? Were you one of the men

23 in the crowd outside the bakery?

24 A. Not from the statements.

25 Q. Not from what you told the police in 1997, you mean?

1 A. No.

2 Q. But you have no recollection of this at all?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it the sort of thing you would have had

5 a recollection of if you had been?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Were you in the habit of kicking people to death?

8 A. No, definitely not.

9 Q. Were you in the habit of being involved in fights in the

10 middle of Portadown?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So why would it slip your memory if you were?

13 A. I wasn't.

14 Q. Okay. Let's have a look at page [07561] to see what you

15 told the police.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Just give me one moment. So I should write

17 in my note, "I wasn't one of the crowd that became

18 involved in the fight". Is that it?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: And you can remember that, can you?

21 A. No, just from my statements.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: If we look at page [07561] then, this is the

23 transcript you are talking about, interview with the

24 police, and if we look at the bottom passage:

25 "I was just walking up the town and I got as far as

1 the church. I heard shouting, "Orange bastards" and

2 things like that, there. I looked around and there was

3 a big scuffle that I could see.

4 "Question: What time was that?

5 "Answer: After half one.

6 "Question: To take you back to the beginning of

7 what you've just said, whereabouts in the town were you

8 before making your way to the church?

9 "Answer: What?

10 "Question: Where were you?

11 "Answer: Just walking, dandering up the town.

12 "Question: You were walking from the bottom of the

13 town towards St Mark's church, right?"

14 Was that true when you said that to the police?

15 A. It must have been.

16 Q. Why must it have been?

17 A. A police statement and that.

18 Q. You just told the truth to the police, did you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If we look at page [07605], you see at the bottom three

21 lines there is a question:

22 "So there was fighting going on in the middle of the

23 town then?

24 "Answer: Scuffles, yes.

25 "Question: There was scuffles, yes. By that you

1 mean what, several scuffles?

2 "Answer: I noticed a crowd together and I could see

3 hands swinging. I don't know if anybody was hit or not,

4 like.

5 "Question: You saw hands swinging. What do you

6 mean? Waving hands or punching?

7 "Answer: I don't know. It could have been

8 slapping. I don't really know.

9 "Question: So what you are saying is you saw what

10 could be referred to as an act of violence, ie somebody

11 could have been slapping somebody or there may have been

12 punches?

13 "Answer: I didn't stand long. They could have been

14 doing anything.

15 "Question: Well, why didn't you make your way on to

16 the Chinese? This was a fight, so why should you stand

17 about?

18 "Answer: I don't know.

19 "Question: Why didn't you go on to the Chinese?"

20 And there are some inaudible parts.

21 "Question: Why didn't you go on about your

22 business?

23 "Answer: Nosiness or something."

24 What you are saying there is that you had hung

25 around to watch what was going on; is that true?

1 A. From my statement, yes.

2 Q. Let me let you look at what somebody else says you were

3 doing with him. That is at page [07397]. This is

4 Andrew Allen, who was called Fonzy at the time. Do you

5 remember him?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No recollection of him? He says he was going up the

8 road with you. If you look at the top couple of lines

9 there:

10 "So what makes you join up with Rory Robinson and

11 who else did you say?

12 "Answer: David Woods.

13 "Question: David Woods, yes. What makes you join

14 up with those two persons?

15 "Answer: We were walking up the street and we

16 stopped just at the bakery at the corner of the main

17 street there."

18 So he is describing walking up the street with you.

19 Any recollection of that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And he describes a fight in which you, he and

22 David Woods were standing at the top of Thomas Street

23 and there is a coming together with Catholics who come

24 up from Thomas Street and there's blows exchanged on all

25 three parts. What do you say to that? Can you explain

1 why he would have said that?

2 A. I don't even know the fellow.

3 Q. A man you don't know identified you as being involved in

4 fighting at the top of Thomas Street?

5 A. No reason.

6 Q. He actually says you were attacked. Can you explain why

7 he would say you were attacked?

8 A. No reason at all.

9 Q. If we look at page [07493] --

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you keep your voice up, Mr Robinson?

11 I see from the LiveNote your last two answers are

12 recorded as "inaudible". We do all want to hear what

13 you are saying.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Could we look at page [07493]? We see what

15 David Woods says. Do you remember him?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You see, looking at the interview, we have got the

18 bottom line on here. He says:

19 "I got off on my own off the bus."

20 If we go over the page, [07494]:

21 "You got off alone and what happened?

22 "Answer: I made my way up the town.

23 "Question: Right, to go home."

24 Then if we go over to [07498], he is being asked

25 about a group of people coming up the street, up

1 Thomas Street. Did you know them by name? You said no,

2 you didn't:

3 "Were they directing the comment ..."

4 That is sectarian views:

5 "... at you?

6 "Answer: Yes.

7 "Question: What happened?

8 "Answer: I stood there.

9 "Question: You stopped?

10 "Answer: I stopped. I was afraid."

11 He says he was on his own there. So what you get is

12 Mr Allen who says he is with you and Mr Woods and that

13 all three of you were attacked by Catholics coming up

14 the street. You say you do not remember any of this and

15 you get Mr Woods saying he was there on his own.

16 Can you explain why Mr Woods would say he was on his

17 own if Mr Allen was going to say he was with him?

18 A. Not really, no.

19 Q. If we look at page [09128], this is a statement of

20 Pauline Newell made on 20 May 1997, and in the middle of

21 the page, just above the middle of this section, she

22 says:

23 "I was going in through the door of Boss Hoggs.

24 I looked up the street towards the church and saw

25 Rory Robinson, Davey Woods and one fellow I know as

1 Fonzy walking up the street towards Thomas Street. They

2 had been on the bus home from the Coach."

3 So quite apart from Mr Allen saying he's with you at

4 the top of Thomas Street, quite apart from that man

5 whose letter we saw saying there was this confrontation

6 with a group at the top of Thomas Street, there you have

7 Pauline Newell saying you were walking up the street

8 with Fonzy and David Woods. Your evidence is you don't

9 remember. Is that it?

10 A. From my statement I don't even know her.

11 Q. But as far as you are concerned, she could be telling

12 the truth because you can't remember, can you? All you

13 have got to go on is what you told the police in 1997?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To get off a murder charge. Is that right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Well, is it right all you have got to go on is what you

18 told the police to get off a murder charge?

19 A. All I've got to go on is my statements I read.

20 Q. Sorry?

21 A. My statements I read.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Just say that again a little more slowly

23 because the shorthand writer finds what you say

24 inaudible. Can you tell us again, please?

25 A. What was the question?

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you just repeat what you just said.

2 A. Just from my statements that I have read.

3 Q. Thank you. If we look at some police evidence we can

4 see that a number of police officers have you involved

5 in a crowd that is being very violent and very

6 aggressive towards Catholics, and in particular towards

7 two men who are on the ground. Do you recall that

8 at all?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Could that have happened?

11 A. From my statement, no.

12 Q. So if it says you didn't get involved in that in your

13 interviews under caution by the police, it didn't

14 happen. That's your evidence, is it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let me put them to you anyway. Page [09141]. This is

17 a statement not of a police officer; this is a statement

18 of a civilian, Jonathan Wright. Do you know him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Three quarters of the way down the page on the

21 right-hand side:

22 "There was fighting going on the in the crowd he was

23 shouting at."

24 This is another person:

25 "I would say ..."

1 He gives a description then. Then if we go over the

2 page, he is talking about somebody called Marc and he

3 says he saw him lift his hand and reach out for

4 somebody:

5 "I didn't see him hit anybody. There was a lot of

6 shouting, people shouting Fenian bastards, et cetera.

7 There were two or three from the Catholic crowd shouting

8 too. They were trading insults, calling the Protestants

9 Orange bastards. The fighting lasted about five to ten

10 minutes. I saw Rory Robinson in the middle of crowd.

11 He was running round like a headless chicken."

12 What did you say about that?

13 A. I didn't know the fellow. I don't know why he's

14 saying it.

15 Q. Do you make enemies easily?

16 A. Not really, no.

17 Q. Is Portadown known as a town in which people make

18 accusations against other people to the police?

19 A. Not sure. I'm sure some people would do it.

20 Q. What do you think about these people who made these

21 accusations against you?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. Are you upset?

24 A. I am, yes.

25 Q. How long did you spend in custody?

1 A. Six/seven months.

2 Q. Were you irritated about that?

3 A. I was, yes.

4 Q. Ever talk to any of these people who made accusations

5 against you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why is that?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Let's look at some of the police officers for the

10 moment. Look at page [09669]. This is an officer, his

11 name is at the top of it. I'm not using names at the

12 moment.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have the appropriate cipher for him?

14 MR UNDERWOOD: I can certainly find the appropriate cipher

15 for him. Can I come to that in a moment, sir?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

17 MR UNDERWOOD: If we look at the bottom half of this page,

18 about halfway down this on the right-hand side -- Constable

19 Neill. Right-hand side then, just over towards halfway down:

20 "During this a male, late 20s, round face with a

21 goat beard and very short hair, wearing a leather-type

22 soft casual waistcoat was near me and I saw him kick at

23 the injured man whom I now know to be Robert Hamill.

24 The male with the goat beard was moved back as best

25 possible. Other police had arrived at this stage and

1 were standing with Rory Robinson, 20s, short black hair,

2 thin with pointy features. Both these persons were

3 taunting injured people and those that were looking

4 after then. Robinson was moving backwards and forwards

5 across the line trying to get through."

6 That is a police line. If we go over the page,

7 Constable A was having words with a male who went to

8 assist her. This person was wearing a scarf. He

9 describes him and he says:

10 "He was taken to the Land Rover by myself and

11 Constable A. After this, I saw Stacey Bridgett with

12 blood around his mouth. I again assisted at the line,

13 tried to move the crowd back up towards West Street.

14 Robinson was still in the front line and squared up to

15 me on a couple of occasions when asked to move back,

16 throwing his hands behind him."

17 What do you say about that?

18 A. Not true, wasn't there.

19 Q. Not there. Made up?

20 A. No reason.

21 Q. False statement made by a police officer to accuse you

22 of being involved in this crowd; is that it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Any reason you can imagine why a police officer would

25 make that up?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Just to get his arrest rate up perhaps. Can you improve

3 on that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Let's have a look at page [09221], the statement of

6 another officer. This is Reserve Constable Silcock. If we pick this up in

7 the second half of the page. Can we go back into the

8 bigger picture of [09220]. Thank you. Take the bottom

9 half of this page, sorry, and he is describing people on

10 the ground and, top line of this:

11 "Number 2 was further up the road towards the

12 church. This man was wearing a dark jacket. He was

13 unconscious and having difficulty breathing. I removed

14 glass away from the area of this man's head. I radioed

15 for an ambulance and stayed with these two injured men

16 along with several women who said they were accompanying

17 the men when the fracas occurred until the ambulance

18 arrived. The large crowd of youths were in the vicinity

19 of these men. They were aggressive, both verbally and

20 physically. On several occasions I pushed youths away

21 from the injured men as they appeared to try and kick

22 the men. One of the rowdy youths was pointed out to me

23 by a woman wearing a white top who alleged this youth

24 had jumped on the head of one of the injured men."

25 He describes that person. If we go down a few

1 lines:

2 "Another youth was wearing a bright yellow/orange

3 shirt with a black check. This youth had dark-ish hair.

4 I now know this person to be Rory Robinson. Robinson

5 was verbally abusive to myself and members of the

6 public. Verbal abuse was shouted with, "I hope they

7 die" from the crowd in which Stacey and Robinson

8 belonged to as the two injured men were placed into the

9 ambulance."

10 What do you say about that?

11 A. I keep on saying I wasn't there.

12 Q. Another complete fake by a police officer, is it? Were

13 you wearing a bright orange shirt with a black check?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. If we go to page [09224], this is Constable Adams. He

16 is describing his part in this as well, if we talk all

17 of this. Halfway down he says:

18 "I then assisted to move these persons back up the

19 town centre towards West Street. While doing so,

20 I noted a person who I know to be Rory Robinson to be

21 amongst this crowd, that he was attempting to get back

22 down to the town centre again. I was aware that he

23 lived at the other end of town, therefore, I allowed him

24 to walk back towards the junction. I escorted him down

25 past it and into the High Street."

1 So he has got you in the crowd and escorting you

2 back through it, back down the High Street towards home.

3 Did you live down there?

4 A. From my statement, that's true there.

5 Q. So you were in the crowd and you had to be escorted back

6 down; is that right?

7 A. From my statement I wasn't in the crowd, no.

8 Q. Page [09225] --

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not quite clear. Were you escorted by

10 a police officer?

11 A. From my statement, yes.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you remember that now?

13 A. From my statement?

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, this isn't your statement. This is an

15 officer's statement.

16 A. That's from the previous statement, my statement.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You can remember you said that to the police,

18 that you were escorted?

19 A. It is in my statement, yes.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: When you were making that statement, you were

21 telling the truth, were you?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you remember why he should escort you

24 particularly?

25 A. No.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: If we look at page [9225] then, this is

2 another police officer. This is Constable Cooke, and picking this

3 up from about six or seven lines down on the right-hand

4 side, he says:

5 "In Market Street, I saw two persons lying on the

6 left-hand carriageway near the junction with

7 Thomas Street and a crowd of approximately 30 to 40

8 people about ten feet in front of them with several

9 police officers in between them trying to hold the crowd

10 back. The police Land Rover was parked across the road

11 at the entrance to Woodhouse Street. Two females and

12 a male were close to the injured persons. They were

13 quite hysterical and were shouting and screaming towards

14 the crowd and were shouting for an ambulance to be

15 called."

16 Is that the sort the thing that would stick in your

17 mind?

18 A. No.

19 Q. "There was broken glass lying around where the injured

20 persons were lying and around the police Land Rover.

21 Persons in the crowd were shouting and jeering towards

22 police and the injured persons, and members of the crowd

23 were constantly trying to push past police to try and

24 get towards the injured persons. The two males lying on

25 the road seemed to be unconscious. Both had blood round

1 their faces."

2 If we drop down a few lines, four lines down:

3 "I recognised the following persons at the front of

4 the crowd, Stacey Bridgett, his nose was bleeding ..."

5 And somebody else, and then a couple of lines down:

6 "Rory Robinson was wearing a yellow coloured shirt

7 with a fine check through it and beige coloured

8 trousers."

9 Is that right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Then if we look at page [06348] --

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, when you say you don't know, is

13 that referring simply to your clothing or to your

14 presence there?

15 A. He asked me about my clothing. I can't remember what I

16 was wearing.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you there as this officer describes?

18 A. No.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

20 MR UNDERWOOD: This is a statement of an officer called Reserve Constable Atkinson.

21 In fact, I should pick this up at [06347], the second

22 half of the page, just over halfway down this:

23 "As I turned round to regroup with my colleagues,

24 I observed that we were being attacked with bottles,

25 et cetera. I observed two bodies lying on the road.

1 One in the middle of the road outsides Eastwood's shop

2 and one outside the bakery on the corner of

3 Thomas Street. I kept the crowd back with my baton

4 while another constable checked these persons. There

5 were also a number of females giving assistance.

6 "I called on another constable to get hold of an

7 ambulance and she had already requested one. The

8 Loyalist youths were still trying to attack both us and

9 the Nationalists, and the first constable pulled one of

10 them from the crowd. Some of the rest tried to

11 intervene and I stopped them. I accompanied the first

12 constable to the Land Rover where I was confronted by

13 the male person in the blue-ish shirt who we'd

14 originally encountered."

15 He deals with that. If we go down to about three

16 quarters of the way down this, there is a line which

17 starts:

18 "Tried to attack ..."

19 It goes on:

20 "They had to be held back by police and at one stage

21 I struck a male dressed in a mustard coloured shirt,

22 whom I believe to be called Rory Robinson, in the

23 stomach to prevent him breaking through police ranks."

24 Do you remember being struck in the stomach by

25 a baton?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is that the sort of thing that would stick in your mind?

3 A. I'm sure it would if it happened.

4 Q. Has it ever happened to you otherwise?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you are denying that happened?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you can remember that, you can remember it never

9 happened?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So he is making this up as well; is that right?

12 A. No reason.

13 Q. If we look at page [15884], this is a statement of

14 Timothy Jameson. Do you know him?

15 A. Not from my statements, no.

16 Q. If we can enlarge all of this, three lines down:

17 "When I got as far as Ronnie's pub, I could see

18 a crowd of approximately 15 to 20 persons fighting in

19 the middle of the town. I walked towards the crowd.

20 There was fellows punching each other and I observed

21 a fellow with an Umbro sweater, grey colour, and I think

22 blue jeans, fighting with another fellow. This fellow

23 I know to see ..."

24 He sets out where he lives:

25 "He is called Marc. He is also called Muck."

1 He describes fighting there. Then if we pick up the

2 final two lines on this:

3 "I then noticed Rory Robinson fighting. I do not

4 know who he was fighting with. I only looked over at

5 him for a couple of seconds. Rory was hitting somebody

6 with his fists. I couldn't see who he was fighting

7 with. Rory was wearing cream coloured jeans."

8 Any comment about that?

9 A. (inaudible) I don't know the fellow.

10 Q. If it turns out you were wearing these clothes, can you

11 help us with how all these people managed to identify

12 you by the clothing you were wearing and being there and

13 doing this?

14 A. No reason.

15 Q. Let's have a look at part of your interview,

16 page [07719], second half of the page. We don't need it

17 amplified because we will go over in a minute. There is

18 a big passage there where the officer recites to you

19 what I have just read to you:

20 "Rory was hitting somebody with his fists. I

21 couldn't see who he was fighting with. Rory was wearing

22 cream coloured jeans.

23 "Not only are they saying that you as a person were

24 there and fighting. They are also describing part of

25 your dress. I would again refer you to CW2. Are those

1 the trousers you were wearing?

2 "Answer: Yes.

3 "Question: From a distance they would -- I would

4 say, they'd easily be described as cream although

5 there's a fine pinstripe in them."

6 The solicitor intervenes just for the record:

7 "I wouldn't agree with that and it is not for us to

8 describe it."

9 There is the police thinking that the jeans you had

10 had seized when you were arrested were cream jeans. Do

11 you remember that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But if we have a look at page [17328], this is the

14 statement of Tracey Clarke. Do you know her?

15 A. No.

16 Q. On the first line she says:

17 "I met up with Stephen Bloomer at Pound Stretcher

18 and I just sat down beside him. I saw two people lying

19 on the street. One was near the centre of the road and

20 the other was near the footpath close to Eastwoods. The

21 person I saw in the middle of road I thought was dead as

22 he wasn't moving. It was at this time I saw a number of

23 persons gathered around the person I saw lying in the

24 centre of the road. These persons were kicking the

25 person on the ground around the head and body. I saw

1 them jump on the person on the ground. They jumped all

2 over him and kicked him. I saw the persons who were

3 doing this and I could identify them as: 1 Dean Forbes,

4 2 Allister Hanvey, 3 Stacey Bridgett, 4 Muck,

5 5 Rory Robinson. The other persons lying near Eastwoods

6 were being helped by Michelle Jameson, but I saw persons

7 run and kick him around the head and body and Michelle

8 was telling them to stop. At that time I saw a number

9 of police behind the crowd who were attacking the two

10 persons lying on the ground."

11 Is that true?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you know any of these other people?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Dean Forbes?

16 A. From my statement I knew Dean, yes.

17 Q. Did you know Allister Hanvey?

18 A. I knew his father.

19 Q. Did you know Stacey Bridgett?

20 A. I don't think so, no.

21 Q. Marc Hobson?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you didn't know Tracey Clarke?

24 A. From my statement I might have knew her from the

25 Coach Inn.

1 Q. I'm sorry?

2 A. When I read my statement, I might have known her from

3 the Coach.

4 Q. So she would have known you to identify you?

5 A. Possibly.

6 Q. Can you give any reason why she would have made this up?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have any of these people that made allegations against

9 you got anything in common so far as you are aware? Are

10 they a member of some club or anything that you have

11 upset?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Sheer coincidence, is it, they all got together and made

14 false allegations against you? Is that right?

15 A. No reason.

16 Q. If we look at [50182]. This is a piece of information

17 the police got. Let's just look at it:

18 "Information reference murder of Hamill at

19 Portadown. Source obtained information from a female

20 who was present during the fight. She's called [blank]

21 and lives at Brownstown and is currently wanted for

22 questioning by Portadown CID. She says Hamill and one

23 male and two female friends were walking from

24 Thomas Street to Woodhouse Street. As they crossed Main

25 Street, Hamill went over to a Protestant crowd of approx

1 30 and called one a black bastard, and then he hit this

2 person who retaliated. The others joined in and Hamill

3 and his male friend were both beaten and the person who

4 retaliated, his name is Rory Robinson, 23 to 24 years,

5 dark brown hair in curtain style."

6 What do you say about that?

7 A. Not true.

8 Q. Right. And then can we have a look at [17805]? This is

9 part of the statement of a forensic scientist, and if we

10 look at the third line on this, it says:

11 "Item 69 consisted of a waterproof jacket.

12 Bloodstaining was found on the inside front left of the

13 jacket. A sample of this stain was lifted for DNA

14 typing."

15 And this is part of items seized from you. And if

16 we look over the page at [17806] we see, under

17 "Robinson", towards the bottom of the main part of it:

18 "Jacket inside front."

19 And the possible source is you and it gives the

20 frequency.

21 So you had blood on the jacket that you were wearing

22 that was seized by the police when you were arrested.

23 Can you explain that?

24 A. The first I have seen of it, heard of it.

25 Q. Were you in the habit of leaving your clothes bloody if

1 you got them bloody, or did you go and get them cleaned?

2 A. (inaudible).

3 Q. So was this blood from when you were fighting?

4 A. I wasn't fighting.

5 Q. You were offered the opportunity to attend an identity

6 parade, weren't you --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- and you refused it, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why was that?

11 A. My solicitor's (inaudible).

12 Q. Was it because you were guilty?

13 A. No.

14 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions, thank you.

15 Questions by MR FERGUSON

16 MR FERGUSON: Mr Robinson, would you regard yourself as

17 a law-abiding citizen?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. And as such someone who had been under an obligation to

20 assist the police in any enquiries which they were

21 making?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. And has that been your attitude throughout,

24 since April 1997?

25 A. I tried my best to help them.

1 Q. You try your best to help them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And are you still trying your best to help them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You are being as frank as you can, are you, with this

6 inquiry as to what you can recollect happening on that

7 night? Are you being as honest and as frank as you can

8 be?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, first of all, you were in Portadown centre the

11 night when this man received the injuries from which he

12 subsequently died: Mr Hamill. Do you accept that?

13 A. From my statement, yes.

14 Q. Never mind your statement; leave your statement to one

15 side for the moment. Do you accept that on the night

16 when Mr Hamill received his injuries from which he died

17 you were in Portadown centre?

18 A. Again from my statement I seem to be, yes.

19 Q. But why do you refer to your statement? Do you not --

20 A. I have no recollection of it at all.

21 Q. No recollection at all, no.

22 Do you remember the police sent you a questionnaire

23 asking you for what you could recollect or assist them

24 with, and I think that was on 29 April. Do you remember

25 speaking to any police?

1 A. No.

2 Q. The day after this man received his injuries, where were

3 you?

4 A. I couldn't tell you.

5 Q. You couldn't tell me? When did you first hear that

6 someone had been very seriously injured in the town

7 centre that night?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. Well, even by the standards of those days, this was

10 a highly unusual event, wasn't it?

11 A. I'm sure it was, yes.

12 Q. Yes. And when you heard that this man had been severely

13 injured, did you speak to anybody you knew to see

14 whether they could help you to recollect what had

15 happened that night, so far as you were concerned?

16 A. I can't remember that far.

17 Q. You can't remember. Did you take any steps to try to

18 see if you could refresh your memory or bring to the

19 forefront of your memory what you were doing that night?

20 A. All I'm going on is my statements.

21 Q. Yes. So is the position that as from the night itself

22 you have no memory from then on as to what took place?

23 A. No.

24 Q. No question of any injury or accident or illness or

25 anything, which has incapacitated you?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Nothing like that, and have you suffered from loss of

3 memory on other occasions?

4 A. I'm sure I have. My memory is bad.

5 Q. Pardon?

6 A. My memory would be bad.

7 Q. Your memory would be bad? You said your mind was blank

8 at the beginning of your evidence. You are not sure

9 'when I first lost my memory'. Could you now help us as

10 to when you think you first lost your memory?

11 A. I don't know, sir.

12 Q. You don't know? You don't care?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. Do you really care, Mr Robinson?

15 A. I do, yes.

16 Q. Would you like to be able to assist the police?

17 A. I would, yes.

18 Q. Would you regard it as your duty to assist the police?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Yes. And are you telling us what you have done and the

21 answers which you have made to this inquiry, that that

22 is the best you can do to assist the police?

23 A. From what I remember, yes.

24 Q. Yes. You are not really trying, are you?

25 A. I am.

1 Q. You were worried that you might be involved, or

2 recognised as having been involved, in what took place

3 that night?

4 A. No. From my statements, no.

5 Q. From your statements, no. Well, you would remember,

6 wouldn't you, whether or not you had seen somebody

7 beaten up? You would remember that, wouldn't you?

8 A. I'm sure I would.

9 Q. Yes. So the position is that you wouldn't agree to go

10 on an identification parade?

11 A. On my solicitor's advice.

12 Q. Your solicitor's advice. You are a big boy; you could

13 make up your own mind, couldn't you?

14 A. It was a serious charge.

15 Q. You were frightened that you might be picked out wrongly

16 as having been present. Is that it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you got the document from the tribunal summarising

19 what was in your statements, did you take any advice

20 about that document?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No? Did you go to your solicitor with it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Have you discussed with anyone prior to coming to give

25 evidence today -- have you discussed with anyone what

1 was going on at the Inquiry, what was being said?

2 A. With my solicitor, yes.

3 Q. Other than your solicitor, nobody else?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And when did you last discuss with your solicitor what

6 was happening in the Inquiry?

7 A. It wasn't what was happening, it was just (inaudible) my

8 statements were read.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. Last Friday, I think.

11 Q. Last Friday evening?

12 A. Yes, or Thursday maybe.

13 Q. That was Mr Monteith, was it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did he advise you to help with the Inquiry?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you not know anybody whose name has been mentioned

18 in connection with what took place that night?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Nobody? Not one solitary, single person?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You are not telling us the truth, are you?

23 A. I am, yes. I'm doing my best to help.

24 Q. Are you?

25 A. Yes.

1 MR FERGUSON: This is your best?

2 Thank you.

3 Questions by MR O'HARE

4 MR O'HARE: Mr Robinson, why are you here today?

5 A. To help this Inquiry.

6 Q. In the same manner that you helped the police?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us this -- and perhaps we could have

9 a honest answer here, Mr Robinson: How did you feel

10 when Robert Hamill died?

11 A. I can't remember.

12 Q. You can't remember? That is an honest answer from you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, Robert Hamill's death certainly had implications

15 for you, didn't it? Didn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were arrested. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were on remand for six or seven months?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And still today you don't know how you felt?

22 A. Not at the time, no.

23 Q. Did you not feel a bit unlucky that he had died?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Well, have you ever thought about how unlucky you were

1 this night, Mr Robinson?

2 A. I read my statement, yes.

3 Q. And over the last 12 years have you never thought to

4 yourself, 'I was very unlucky that night'?

5 A. I didn't really think about it because I wasn't there.

6 Q. No, (inaudible). You didn't really think about it. Are

7 you as anxious to help this Inquiry as you were the

8 police?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yes. And when you were being interviewed by the

11 police -- your first interview was on 10 May 1997 -- you

12 were anxious to help them?

13 A. I can't remember. I probably was.

14 Q. Are you comfortable sitting there, Mr Robinson?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you? Would you like to put your feet up on the

17 table?

18 A. No, they are all right, thanks.

19 Q. You certainly put your feet up on the table when you

20 were being questioned about the murder of Robert Hamill,

21 weren't you?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. No. You were sarcastic to the police in that first

24 interview. Isn't that right?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. I can bring you through the page references, if you

2 would like, Mr Robinson. You were sarcastic in your

3 answers. Was that helping the police?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You don't know. You didn't recognise anybody from

6 Portadown at the Coach Inn in Banbridge that night when

7 you were interviewed by the police? Was that you

8 assisting the police, Mr Robinson?

9 A. I don't know. You ask them.

10 Q. No, you were the one who was telling the police this

11 during your interview, Mr Robinson. Were you assisting

12 the police on 10 May 1997, when you said:

13 "I didn't recognise anybody from Portadown in the

14 Coach Inn in Banbridge."

15 A. I must have been, yes.

16 Q. That was you assisting the police? Were you also

17 assisting the police when you said in that interview

18 that you didn't recognise or know anybody on the bus

19 back from the Coach Inn to Portadown?

20 A. I must have been.

21 Q. That was you assisting the police as well, but you

22 didn't recognise anybody as you made your way up High

23 Street. That was you assisting the police?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You had lived in Portadown 10 years at this stage?

1 A. I think so, yes.

2 Q. Your memory obviously was bad then in May 1997?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You don't know. How did you remember to come here today

5 with this bad memory?

6 A. My wife.

7 Q. If your wife?

8 A. I'm sure I would have remembered somehow.

9 Q. You would have remembered somehow. Going back to your

10 interview on 10 May, there were periods where you

11 weren't even listening to the questions you were asked

12 by the interview officer; is that right?

13 A. I don't know, no, no.

14 Q. At stages you leant back and folded your arms around the

15 back of your head?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. That is recorded in these interviews.

18 A. It must be true, then.

19 Q. You have been questioned about the murder of a man that

20 you had nothing to do with. Why were you being

21 sarcastic, not listening, leaning back with your arms

22 folded over your head, putting your feet up on the table

23 and giving evasive answers or claiming that you didn't

24 see anybody from Portadown that night?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. You don't know? You got cocky in the interview, isn't

2 that right?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Saying things like:

5 "I fucking know where I live."

6 How was that assisting the police to use language

7 like that during an interview into the death of a man?

8 A. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Well, looking back on this, why do you think you were

10 being sarcastic, cheeky, evasive, cocky? Looking back

11 at it, why do you think you would have been like this

12 during the interview into the death of a man,

13 Mr Robinson?

14 A. I can't remember that far back.

15 Q. Can you think today of any reason why you would have

16 behaved like that during that interview?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You didn't give a damn, sure you didn't, Mr Robinson.

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Just another dead Fenian, isn't that right?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. You don't remember. Why wouldn't you give the

23 Inquiry -- Miss Kemish, when she was interviewing you in

24 2006, why would you not give her a full account of your

25 movements that night?

1 A. I done my best to help her.

2 Q. You were asked will you give a full account of your

3 movements and you said no?

4 A. I have done my best to help the Inquiry so far and

5 answered any questions given to me.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: You are not considering counsel's question,

7 are you? You are just evading it.

8 A. That's not true.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Why, if you want to help, did you refuse to

10 say what your movements were?

11 A. I said what my movements were.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: You said what they were?

13 MR McCOMB: Perhaps just in relation to the interview with

14 Miss Kemish, perhaps that could be put up on the screen

15 just so that the witness can see it.

16 MR O'HARE: It cannot be put up on the screen.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this the transcript?

18 MR O'HARE: It is the transcript.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: We don't have the transcript.

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps the best way of doing it is to look

21 at page [81142] at paragraph 32 and the statement which

22 Mr Robinson said is true.

23 MR O'HARE: Indeed, this paragraph 32, I'm reminded. Do you

24 see paragraph 32?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. "I do not wish to give a full account to the Inquiry

2 1997 of my movements on the night of 26/27 April 1997

3 and I have nothing else to clarify or add to this

4 statement."

5 Why did you not wish to give a full account to the

6 Inquiry?

7 A. I have already said I have answered any questions put

8 forward to me.

9 Q. The question actually was:

10 "Do you wish to give a full account of your

11 involvement to the Inquiry?"

12 You said no. (Pause)

13 Yes, thank you very much, for your assistance,

14 Mr Robinson.

15 A. Thank you.

16 MR McGRORY: Sir, I have an application to make certainly in

17 the absence of the witness, and I am afraid it may need

18 to be in camera.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I follow.

20 MR McGRORY: Can I discuss that with Inquiry counsel?

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

22 (11.35 am)

23 (Short adjournment)

24 (11.45 am)

25 (In camera)

1 (12.38 pm)

2 (The short adjournment)

3 (2.00 pm)

4 (In camera)

5 (2.20 pm)

6 Questions by MR McGRORY

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?

8 MR McGRORY: I am obliged, Mr Chairman. Now, Mr Robinson, I

9 want to ask you some questions on behalf of the family

10 of Robert Hamill. Mr Underwood has already spoken to

11 you about the statement made by a witness called

12 Tracey Clarke. You remember that this morning? What

13 Tracey Clarke says she saw happen to Robert Hamill was

14 as follows:

15 "These persons were kicking the person on the ground

16 around the head and the body. I saw them jump on the

17 person on the ground. They jumped all over him and

18 kicked him."

19 Do you remember that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you remember Mr Underwood raising this with you this

22 morning?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "I saw the persons who were doing this and I can

25 identify them as Dean Forbes, Allister Hanvey,

1 Stacey Bridgett, Muck and Rory Robinson."

2 You remember that being put to you this morning?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, I will put my cards to the table with you,

5 Mr Robinson, any question I ask you will be based on the

6 premise that what this witness has said is in fact what

7 happened and that you were involved in the murder of

8 Robert Hamill as one of those people who kicked him on

9 the ground and jumped on him. Do you understand what

10 I'm saying to you?

11 A. That is not true, I wasn't there.

12 Q. Well, you were there on the night, weren't you? You

13 were nearby, weren't you?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's be clear about this. Were you in

16 Portadown town centre on the night on which

17 Robert Hamill was attacked?

18 A. From my statement it seems so, yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. You don't remember that you were there

20 that night?

21 A. No.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

23 MR McGRORY: That is a lie, Mr Robinson, isn't it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Well, have you been made aware by anybody up to the

1 commencement of this inquiry that anything you say in

2 this room while giving evidence cannot be used against

3 you in respect of the murder of Robert Hamill? Are you

4 aware of that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But that the one offence with which you can be charged

7 as a consequence of anything you might say in giving

8 evidence on oath today is the offence of perjury. You

9 have been made aware of that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that the only danger of you

12 facing a charge of perjury is in the context of you

13 telling us what happened and being found to have told

14 a lie about what happened. Do you understand that?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you understand that?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR McGRORY: Has anyone advised you that one good way of

19 making sure that doesn't happen is to say you remember

20 nothing?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, have you considered that that is a pretty good way

23 of avoiding a perjury charge?

24 A. No.

25 Q. It never occurred to you?

1 A. I'm telling the truth, what I remember.

2 Q. You see, because I'm suggesting to you that your

3 complete and utter memory lapse in respect of even your

4 presence in Portadown on the night of 26/27 April is

5 fabricated?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And it is fabricated for the calculated reason,

8 Mr Robinson, that that is the safest and surest way of

9 avoiding any consequences to you in terms of any future

10 criminal action as to what you might say?

11 A. No.

12 Q. It never occurred to you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You see, you are not the only one to have come to this

15 inquiry to give evidence and to have said that you

16 remember absolutely nothing about what happened on the

17 night. Are you aware of that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. We had a chap only yesterday afternoon, called

20 Andrew Allen. Do you know him?

21 A. Not that I can think of, no.

22 Q. He took a pretty similar approach. The only thing he

23 could say was that whatever I said to the police is what

24 happened, but I can't help you, I can't remember

25 anything. You don't know that chap? Have you been

1 following the proceedings?

2 A. Not really, no.

3 Q. Are you saying that you haven't discussed with anyone

4 else who might be involved in these proceedings how best

5 to frustrate this inquiry?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Let's get back to what happened to Robert Hamill. Are

8 you the sort of person who would wish ill on a Catholic

9 because he is a Catholic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No. You have no problem with Catholics, nothing against

12 Catholics?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you support or agree with people who do?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You wouldn't? You wouldn't have any sympathies or

17 support for any group or organisation that does wish ill

18 on Catholics?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or, indeed, in fact engages in a campaign of murder

21 against Catholics?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No? You are not a person of that kind at all? Can

24 I have page [09221] on the screen, please. You may have

25 already seen this document this morning. It is

1 a statement from a policeman who we are now calling

2 [Reserve Constable Silcock]. It is dated 27 April 1997. This is a full-time

3 reservist who was called to the scene of the incident in

4 the early hours of the morning and he makes some

5 observations. And in the final lines of this statement,

6 he says:

7 "Another youth was wearing a bright yellow/orange

8 shirt with a black check. This youth had dark-ish hair.

9 I now know this person to be Rory Robinson."

10 Now, were you that person?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So he is wrong when he says that it was you?

13 A. He must be.

14 Q. What he says the people he was observing were doing is

15 as follows:

16 "Robinson was verbally abusive to myself and members

17 of the public. Verbal abuse was shouted with, 'I hope

18 they die' from the crowd in which Stacey and Robinson

19 belonged."

20 I hope they die, Mr Robinson. Is that how you would

21 have felt about a Catholic who was lying on the ground

22 gasping for breath?

23 A. No, because I wasn't there.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Suppose you had been there --

25 A. No.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

2 MR McGRORY: Now, the political climate around Portadown at

3 this time was fairly tense in 1997, was it not?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Have you any memory of the political climate even if you

6 have no memory of the events of the night of 26 and

7 27 April?

8 A. Not really, no.

9 Q. What age were you then?

10 A. How many years is it?

11 Q. This is now 2007 [sic]. Can I suggest to you you were around

12 about 22, 23?

13 A. 25.

14 Q. You see, you are a little bit older than most of the

15 people we have been talking to about this incident.

16 Some of them are merely teenagers. You accept that you

17 were a bit older than that, you were in your mid 20s?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, a man in his mid 20s in 1997 surely would have had

20 some political awareness, would you not?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't you remember if you were interested in

23 the Troubles that sadly beset Northern Ireland?

24 A. No.

25 MR McGRORY: Are you saying you weren't interested in the

1 Troubles?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. You can't remember or you weren't?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. You said no there for a second, and then you quickly

6 switched to the stock answer which I'm suggesting you

7 have carefully prepared, which is "I can't remember"?

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean by that you can't remember

9 whether there were troubles or you can't remember

10 whether you had any interest in them?

11 A. I can't remember whether I had any interest in them.

12 MR McGRORY: You have a tattoo?

13 A. Is it relevant to this inquiry?

14 Q. Yes. You have two tattoos. Is that a nod in agreement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And one of them bears your name; is that correct?

17 A. That is correct, yes.

18 Q. Rory. And the other one says "Remember 1690". Isn't

19 that correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. It is not correct? Could I have document 71026 on the

22 screen, please?

23 Do you remember being arrested and charged with this

24 offence, while the technical people are trying to find

25 this document?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You don't even remember being arrested? You remember

3 you spent some considerable time in prison over this?

4 A. Bits and pieces.

5 Q. Bits and pieces? You spent some months in prison, did

6 you not?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. You don't remember? Well, when you were arrested, you

9 were examined by police, police doctor, by a custody

10 officer when you were brought into custody to be

11 questioned. Do you remember that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You remember that? One of the observations made at the

14 time of your arrest is that you had two tattoos. I have

15 the benefit of seeing a document about this describing

16 the tattoos. Now, you have accepted that you have one

17 tattoo. What does the second tattoo say?

18 A. Nothing.

19 Q. Well, is it just a picture?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is there no writing on it?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I'm going to suggest to you --

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you found that document yet?

25 MR UNDERWOOD: It is 61026. Because it was thought for

1 a time not to be relevant, it is not currently in the

2 electronic trial bundle. It is being put in as we

3 speak. It won't be a moment.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

5 MR McGRORY: I'm going to move on from this particular

6 point, but what I'm going to ask the Inquiry to do is

7 look at your tattoo and what I'm suggesting to you is

8 that your tattoo says "Remember 1690"?

9 A. I don't think it is relevant to the Inquiry.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is.

11 A. Why is that?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I decide, and I'm not about to explain myself

13 to you. It is relevant.

14 MR McGRORY: What you just said, Mr Robinson, is that it

15 says nothing. I'm putting to you that it says "Remember

16 1690."

17 Bearing in mind that the only offence with which you

18 can be charged out of your evidence today is that of

19 perjury and that I have asked the Inquiry to have a look

20 at your tattoos when you complete your evidence, are you

21 now going to tell us still that it says nothing?

22 A. (Witness nods)

23 Q. Very well. You are nodding your head?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: I have written the tattoo says nothing about

1 it. Says nothing on it.

2 A. Yes.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: What is it a tattoo of, then?

4 A. The Union Jack.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: The Union Jack?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR McGRORY: Why do you have a picture of a Union Jack on

8 your arm?

9 A. No reason.

10 Q. Well, why do you have the name "Rory" on your name?

11 A. Same reason, no reason. Same answer.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: So you have two tattoos, have you: one of the

13 Union Jack and the other which says "Rory"?

14 A. Yes.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Just those two?

16 A. Yes.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any writing or date with the tattoo

18 of the Union Jack?

19 A. No.

20 MR McGRORY: There is no reason why you have a tattoo of the

21 Union Jack?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Does that suggest a strong belief in the link between

24 Northern Ireland and Britain?

25 A. Not really, no.

1 Q. You just have what you perceive to be a national flag

2 for no reason. Is that not an expression of a political

3 belief?

4 A. Many young fellows had football teams or union jacks in

5 them days.

6 Q. Why would you have a picture of a football team?

7 A. People support football teams, don't they?

8 Q. To show your support for the football team. Is that

9 correct? Do you agree with me that anyone who goes to

10 the trouble of having a tattoo imprinted on their skin

11 showing a national flag, that that is an indication of

12 strong allegiance to that flag?

13 A. Not really, no.

14 Q. In fact, it's an expression of a political belief?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You don't accept that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What I'm suggesting to you, Mr Robinson, is that you

19 have strong Loyalist views. Do you understand me? Now,

20 I'm not --

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have strong Loyalist beliefs?

22 A. No.

23 MR McGRORY: You don't?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I'm not suggesting to you that there is anything wrong

1 in having a view, a Unionist view or a Loyalist view.

2 Do you understand me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But I'm saying it is a start when it comes to deciding

5 whether or not you are the sort of person who might get

6 involved in an attack against a Catholic. It doesn't

7 mean any more or less than that. You are nodding. You

8 accept that?

9 A. What's the question again?

10 Q. I'm just sort of saying to you that these questions are

11 not based on the fact that because you have a tattoo of

12 the Union Jack on your arm that that means you kicked

13 Robert Hamill. Do you understand that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But what I'm starting with is whether or not you are

16 a person who holds strong Loyalist views?

17 A. No, definitely not.

18 Q. Not at all?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, I'm suggesting to you the very fact you have

21 a tattoo of the Union Jack would suggest otherwise?

22 A. No.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us why you had it tattooed?

24 A. No reason, just as any young fellow would have it on, in

25 their younger days, football, anything at all.

1 MR McGRORY: I believe it is on the system, just before we

2 leave this point now, if it could be brought up. The

3 bottom half from "offences charged" at paragraph 18, if

4 that could be highlighted it would help, from the word

5 "murder" down. Can you see the document, Mr Robinson?

6 Is it on your screen now?

7 A. RUC one?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The bottom half of it at point 18 "offences charged", do

11 you see that? We don't need it highlighted, we can do

12 without that. Do you see the word "murder"? Do you see

13 the word "murder" about halfway down?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, this is a police document which come into existence

16 when you were charged. Do you accept that that is what

17 it is?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Well --

20 A. It could be anything in a way.

21 Q. It says you were charged with the offence of murder.

22 You were charged with the offence of murder, were you

23 not?

24 A. I must have been, yes.

25 Q. You know you were charged with murder, Mr Robinson.

1 Will you say yes to that. It is a simple question.

2 A. I must have been, it says here.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no, no. Do you remember yourself being

4 charged with murder?

5 A. No.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: You have no recollection of that at all?

7 A. No.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

9 MR McGRORY: Mr Robinson, it is inconceivable, I'm

10 suggesting to you, that you do not remember that you

11 were charged with murder.

12 A. Well ...

13 Q. And that for you to come to this tribunal and say that

14 you have no memory of being charged with murder gives

15 the lie, Mr Robinson, to your evidence that you don't

16 remember even being there on the night. Do you

17 understand that question?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it is an affront to this tribunal. Now, in the

20 right-hand column of the lower part, it says:

21 "Abnormal features, scars, tattoos, et cetera."

22 Do you see that box?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it says:

25 "Right upper arm tattooed a picture of a parrot and

1 'Rory'."

2 Do you see that:

3 "Left upper arm Ulster flag ..."

4 It says:

5 "... with two union flags and 'REM 1690'."

6 Do you see those words?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, some policeman has made those observations. Are

9 you saying he is mistaken?

10 A. He must be.

11 Q. Well, as well as the Union Jack is there an Ulster flag?

12 A. Like the Union Jack shield sort of thing.

13 Q. A Union Jack shield?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But is there an Ulster flag?

16 A. No, there is not an Ulster flag, no.

17 Q. Now, are you still maintaining that whatever it is you

18 have tattooed on your arm doesn't demonstrate some

19 strong political belief?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You are still maintaining that?

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you prepared to show us the tattoo?

23 A. No.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

25 MR McGRORY: Not even in private, Mr Robinson?

1 A. No.

2 MR McCOMB: Perhaps we might be given the opportunity to

3 consult with our client in relation to his response, at

4 the end of his evidence obviously, in relation to his

5 response to your questions, sir --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well --

7 MR McCOMB: -- and give him whatever advice we can.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Once he has finished his evidence you are

9 entitled to have any kind of conference with him you

10 like.

11 MR McCOMB: I mean perhaps before he leaves here.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I see, very well.

13 MR McCOMB: In relation to dealing with your question, sir.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

15 MR McGRORY: Mr Robinson, can you remember going to prison?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You do not even remember? You spent quite a few months

18 in prison?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. On the evidence of the lady whose statement was shown to

21 you earlier, that you were involved in jumping on and

22 kicking Robert Hamill?

23 A. That is not true.

24 Q. For the offence of murder?

25 A. That is not true.

1 Q. You don't remember. The question I'm asking you is do

2 you remember going to prison?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You don't even remember?

5 A. I have a bad memory.

6 Q. You see, Mr O'Hare, my learned friend beside me here,

7 asked you some questions earlier today about your

8 attitude to the police during interview. You are

9 looking at the clock. Are you in a hurry somewhere?

10 A. I've a child to collect.

11 Q. So Mr O'Hare asked you some questions about your

12 attitude towards the police, about you putting your foot

13 on the table. Do you remember that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you remember being asked about it this morning?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Putting your hands behind your back, the police had to

18 ask you at one point was there something funny about

19 what you were being asked about because you were

20 laughing. Do you remember that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You see, I'm suggesting to you that when you were

23 interviewed by the police about this murder, just before

24 you were committed to prison, you had a cocky attitude

25 towards it and an arrogant attitude towards it. What do

1 you say about that?

2 A. No, I can't remember.

3 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the reason why you were so

4 cocky is that you knew nothing was going to come of

5 this, didn't you?

6 A. Well ...

7 Q. You didn't really care when you were being questioned?

8 A. I'm sure I did at the time, if I could remember it.

9 Q. In fact, you had a confidence about you that day which

10 few people would have having just been arrested and

11 being questioned about a murder. Can you say anything

12 about that?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. You just don't remember? Well, where were you in

15 prison? Which prison?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. You see, you were asked about this by Judi Kemish on

18 behalf of the Inquiry, page 54 of your witness

19 statement, a number of years ago. Do you remember the

20 interview that you had with this inquiry?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No memory of it? You see, it is only maybe three years

23 ago, 2006?

24 A. Hm-mm.

25 Q. It is not 13 years ago. So are you saying your memory

1 lapse even applies to what happened three years ago?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You have no memory of Miss Kemish talking to you. Can

4 you remember where you were working three years ago?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You don't remember that either? Well, what Miss Kemish

7 asked you -- it is page 54 of that particular

8 transcript -- you were remanded in custody on the charge

9 of murder and you were asked where you went on remand.

10 Can you remember that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, you gave an answer as to which prison.

13 Unfortunately, the transcriber didn't pick up it, but

14 you said "the something", but you were fit to give an

15 answer then as to what prison you were in. So can you

16 now tell us whether or not you remember which prison you

17 were in?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What prisons are there in Northern Ireland?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. You don't know?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Do you know there is one in Maghaberry?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. You are not sure. Did you know there was one in 1997 in

1 the Maze outside Lisburn?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You are not aware of that?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: You say you never heard of the Maze Prison?

5 MR McGRORY: You are nodding your head, Mr Robinson. You

6 are shaking your head as if that is a negative answer.

7 A. Yes.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Or the dirty protest or whatever it was

9 called, does that not ring a bell with you?

10 A. No.

11 MR McGRORY: Are you saying you have no knowledge or memory

12 of the existence of a prison called the Maze, one of the

13 most famous prisons in the world, I would hazard to say

14 to you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No memory of it. You were asked by her what wing you

17 were on and at that point you said you weren't sure but

18 you accepted you were in prison. You are not prepared

19 to accept that now. You are nodding. Would you please

20 answer?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you prepared to accept that you were in prison?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You are prepared to accept that you were in prison? Do

25 you now have a memory of the fact that you were in

1 prison?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No memory?

4 A. (Witness shakes head)

5 Q. Then if you have no memory, of course you are not going

6 to be able to assist us as to just precisely where

7 within the prison you were housed, are you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No. Not at all. So I'm going to suggest to you that

10 the Maze Prison at the time was split into wings. Are

11 you aware of that?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And that when people were committed to the Maze Prison,

14 which at that time housed only prisoners charged with

15 paramilitary offences, they were asked where they wanted

16 to go. Do you have any knowledge of that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In fact, they actually had to establish a political

19 affiliation. Are you aware of that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That is how the prison system worked in 1997. You have

22 no knowledge of that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And that you were asked what your political affiliation

25 was in terms of paramilitary groups at the time. You

1 have any memory of that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You chose to go on a wing housing prisoners associated

4 with a certain organisation. Do you remember that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you aware of the existence of the UVF in 1997?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Not even aware of its existence? You lived in

9 Portadown. You didn't know there was a paramilitary

10 group called the UVF?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You didn't even know about it?

13 A. Not that I remember, no.

14 Q. Were you aware that there was a violent situation in

15 Northern Ireland throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. That certain paramilitary groups specialised in certain

18 things, Mr Robinson?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No? And that the UVF specialised in the murder of

21 Catholics?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You are not aware of that and that it split in 1997.

24 Are you aware of that?

25 A. No.

1 Q. It split into two groups, another called the LVF. No

2 knowledge of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Also sometimes styled themselves as the Red Hand

5 Commandos. No knowledge of that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You see, when you went to prison, Mr Robinson, you asked

8 to be associated with the LVF prisoners?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You asked to be part that of group?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. You are saying, "No", or, "I don't know"?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You are saying no, you didn't?

15 A. I said I don't know.

16 Q. You are saying, "I don't know"?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You said first no.

18 A. I don't know.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no. You said first no, you didn't ask to

20 be associated with the LVF. Do you want me to read the

21 transcript to you?

22 A. I don't know.

23 MR McGRORY: Would you take it from the Chairman,

24 Mr Robinson, that your initial reaction was no? Because

25 I'm suggesting to you it displays the fact that this is

1 not a matter of memory lapse. You denied it. It

2 slipped out, you see. The answer "no" slipped out;

3 isn't that right?

4 A. (Witness shakes head)

5 Q. You are shaking your head again. Is that, "No", or, "I

6 don't know"? Did you not just tell the Chairman that it

7 slipped out, the answer no?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. I'm suggesting to you had the Chairman suggested to you

10 that you actually said no, your response to that was it

11 slipped out? Do you agree that was your response? You

12 are shrugging your shoulders. What does that mean?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Don't know. You see, the other people charged with this

15 murder -- there were a number of others charged. Were

16 you aware of that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Dean Forbes. Do you know Dean Forbes; no?

19 A. Not that I remember, no.

20 Q. Marc Hobson? Stacey Bridgett?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know him?

23 A. Not that I remember, no.

24 Q. Allister Hanvey. You see, they went to the UVF wing, I

25 would suggest to you. Any knowledge of that?

1 A. No.

2 Q. For some reason or other you chose to go to the LVF

3 wing. Do you remember that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can I have document 41445, please? While that is

6 coming up, Mr Robinson, I suggest to you that you know

7 very well that the LVF was an organisation dedicated to

8 the murder of Catholics. Are you prepared to accept

9 that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. But you were a supporter of that organisation. Do you

12 accept that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And that you were anxious to be affiliated with that

15 organisation when in prison; do you accept that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, while you were in prison, do you recall that in

18 certain sections of the community there was support for

19 you?

20 A. Pardon?

21 Q. There was support for the people in prison?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. In terms of any campaign to get their release or

24 anything like that, have you any memory of that?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You see, because if you are telling us the truth about

2 not being involved in the murder of Robert Hamill, you

3 were an absolutely innocent person wrongly imprisoned.

4 Do you accept that?

5 A. (Witness nods)

6 Q. You are nodding your head. Please answer.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That you were wrongly arrested?

9 A. I can't remember being arrested.

10 Q. Do you accept the proposition, Mr Robinson, that if you

11 were totally innocent of the murder of Robert Hamill and

12 were arrested and detained in prison for a number of

13 months, that you were the innocent victim of false

14 evidence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, are you suggesting you have no memory of being

17 falsely imprisoned for four months?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You do? You have no memory of it? Well, this

20 document -- if we could highlight paragraph 6.3,

21 please -- this is part of a submission to this inquiry,

22 Mr Robinson, by a human rights group called British

23 Irish Rights Watch about certain lines of enquiry that

24 it sought the Inquiry to make. I'll just give you the

25 chance to digest it. It says:

1 "We have been shown a photocopy of an LVF leaflet

2 which was sold on the streets of Portadown by LVF

3 supporters in October 1997. Half a page in this leaflet

4 reads as follows:

5 "The Portadown six.

6 "We would like to take this opportunity to wish you

7 all success in your trial.

8 "Every one of us know that the charges against you

9 are outrageous, and any one of us could be sitting in

10 your place.

11 "You have been criminalised for defending yourselves

12 against an unprovoked attack.

13 "There have been many Nationalist attacks upon the

14 ordinary Protestant people of Portadown at that same

15 flashpoint where taigs [Catholics] wear a different face

16 at night.

17 "You have our full support and best wishes and we

18 hope to see you home soon."

19 You were the innocent victim of an outrageous false

20 accusation, were you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your view. Now, are you remembering that you felt

23 that way about it?

24 A. Just after you said there, I was agreeing with you.

25 Q. That wasn't an actual memory of that is how you felt?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you remember that there was support in the community

3 encouraged by the LVF?

4 A. No.

5 Q. For you and the others?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. No memory of that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You didn't encourage that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Your organisation, the LVF, didn't encourage that, did

12 it?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You don't know. Do you accept, Mr Robinson, the LVF and

15 the UVF were highly dangerous terrorist organisations?

16 A. I couldn't tell you.

17 Q. Well, will you accept that if the Inquiry is prepared to

18 take judicial notice, as we call it, of the fact that

19 these organisation engaged in campaigns of murder, that

20 that is what they were?

21 A. You know ...

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you ever heard of them, those

23 organisations?

24 A. I haven't.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Had you heard of the IRA?

1 A. No.

2 MR McGRORY: You see, there is certain people have come to

3 give evidence to the Inquiry have said that they were

4 inhibited in what they would say to the Inquiry or the

5 police because of the involvement of paramilitaries.

6 Are you aware that that has been said to this inquiry in

7 recent days?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And I'm suggesting to you that if a paramilitary

10 organisation took umbrage at somebody for assisting the

11 police in imprisoning someone who was a supporter of

12 theirs, at the very least then that could be very

13 dangerous for somebody to raise their heads?

14 A. I wouldn't know.

15 Q. Do you accept that that was the case in Northern Ireland

16 in 1997?

17 A. I wouldn't know.

18 Q. And that any of those who were affiliated with or

19 associated with an organisation like this had the

20 protection and goodwill of that organisation?

21 A. I couldn't tell you.

22 Q. No. Mr Robinson, I don't think I'm going to take the

23 matter any further with you. Thank you very much.

24 Questions by MS DINSMORE

25 MS DINSMORE: With your indulgence, Mr Chairman, I propose

1 to spend a few minutes just exploring the issue of the

2 memory with Mr Robinson.

3 Good afternoon, Mr Robinson.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I act on behalf of Reserve Constable Atkinson. Everyone

6 in this room fully appreciates that it is a very, very

7 stressful scenario, for a grand word for it, for someone

8 to be placed in. So let's just leave all the dreadful stuff

9 that has been explored with you for a minute or two, just

10 to allow you a moment to feel a little more comfortable.

11 Now, you are 37 now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I don't mean to be personal, but are you married or have

14 a partner?

15 A. Married and a child.

16 Q. What age is your child?

17 A. Two weeks.

18 Q. Congratulations. How long have you and your wife been

19 together?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Oh, really, you can't? Do you remember getting married?

22 A. Sort of.

23 Q. You sort of remember getting married?

24 A. She still gives off of me for forgetting it.

25 Q. Would you have a bit of a problem with the memory at

1 home too then? Were you married a good while, as we

2 would say in Northern Ireland?

3 A. Aye.

4 Q. And this is your first wife, yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And have you ever worked since you left school?

7 A. I'm working at the moment, yes.

8 Q. Where are you working at the moment?

9 A. I would rather not say.

10 Q. That is okay, that is fair enough. But you know where

11 it is, okay?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long would you have been working there?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. You are not sure. Well, would it be, like, years and

16 years? Would you have 20 years' service?

17 A. No, I don't think so.

18 Q. Would you have five years' service done?

19 A. I couldn't tell you.

20 Q. Well, have you ever changed jobs in your whole time?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Have you a trade -- I don't want you to tell me anything

23 too personal, but have you a trade that you trained for

24 or anything like that?

25 A. I didn't train for it, no.

1 Q. If you don't want to tell us, like, what your expertise

2 is, like, feel free, but can you tell me?

3 A. I would rather not say.

4 Q. Well, now, we know you are working and would you be the

5 sort of person that has a good working history now?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Now, let's just be a wee bit -- none of this is very

8 emotive in this very tense situation. We are just

9 talking -- it is not a criticism -- many a person --

10 and, indeed, in these times have a lot of trouble with

11 their jobs, but most people can remember if they

12 generally have had like a consistent good working record

13 or not?

14 A. I can't, no.

15 Q. Let's look at it like this. Say you were laid off

16 tonight and you go home to your wife and your lovely new

17 baby and the last thing you want to do is not be

18 a provider for them. I would think that is right.

19 Isn't that right? Like, you would say, "Look, love, I'm

20 going to do all I can to get a job". Right? And sure,

21 there is a job and down you go for the interview and

22 they say to you, "Well, now, Mr Robinson, you are here

23 looking for this job". Can tell me anything, anything

24 at all -- did you leave school about 16?

25 A. I'm not sure. I'm sure I did.

1 Q. You didn't stay on for A levels or go to university?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. If you went to university you can't remember it?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Right. Well, if you were doing an application form

6 today for a job would you put a university qualification

7 on it?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. If you are applying for a job now in relation to your

10 working history, no matter what they ask you, you would

11 just say, "I can't remember"? You are lucky to have

12 this job that you have at the moment. Did you have an

13 interview for it?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. You can't remember? Tell me, is it a short-term memory

16 problem you have or a long-term memory problem?

17 A. It is both.

18 Q. Tell me, what is the last thing you remember?

19 A. Looking at a glass of water.

20 Q. Right. Well, that is very witty. And we do know that

21 you remember reading your statements?

22 A. Hm-mm.

23 Q. And it was last week, I think you told us, you read your

24 statements. I suppose you can't remember where you read

25 them? Right.

1 You will remember, I think you have told the

2 Inquiry, you got them from your solicitor?

3 A. I think so, yes.

4 Q. You say you think so. Are you going to say you can't

5 remember?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You can't remember that either. Have you any interests

8 at all in life outside work and your wife and your new

9 baby?

10 A. Not really, no.

11 Q. You do not follow football or -- what do you do with

12 your time?

13 A. Stay about the house.

14 Q. Are you into cooking or anything? Like, you are

15 a fantastic fit young man, aren't you? You see, I have

16 to suggest to you the same as everyone else that this

17 "can't remember" is a concerted decision on your part

18 that no matter what you are asked at this tribunal, you

19 have an attitude that you will say:

20 "I can't remember."

21 You can't remember whether you have a consistent

22 working history over the last 20 years, you can't

23 remember if you were applying for a job today whether

24 you have been to university or not. The only thing I

25 can see that you can remember is seeing your statements

1 a week ago and also that you have the pleasure of a new

2 baby.

3 Now, are those the only two things that you can

4 remember? And that you have no interests in life, no

5 interest in the political situation. I take it you

6 don't watch the telly at all when you are sitting round

7 the house. Do you have a telly in your house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it ever on?

10 A. Sometimes.

11 Q. Would it have been on in the last 20 years?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. You don't know if your TV has been on in the last

14 20 years? Right. If it had been on, you never heard

15 the word IRA or LVF or UDR? You were completely unaware

16 of the horrendous troubles that Northern Ireland has

17 been through in the last 20 years?

18 A. You know, sure, but I can't remember.

19 Q. When you say I was sure I did, tell me what that means?

20 What does that mean?

21 A. I guess I can remember this now and maybe tomorrow I

22 would forget all about it.

23 Q. Tell us what you remember now. Just tell us what you

24 remember now?

25 A. Taking a sip of water.

1 Q. Tell me what do you remember about before lunch? Where

2 were you before lunch?

3 A. Before lunch?

4 Q. Yes, where were you?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. You don't know. Have you any idea how you got here

7 today?

8 A. Hm-mm.

9 Q. Is that hm-mm, yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you drive?

12 A. Pardon?

13 Q. Do you drive?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How do you remember the highway code?

16 MR McCOMB: I think the point has surely been made.

17 MS DINSMORE: I accept that. I fully accept that.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: We will move on then, shall we.

19 MS DINSMORE: There is only one other aspect I want to put

20 to you and that is that Reserve Constable Atkinson has a clear memory that is

21 in the Inquiry statements of you being struck by his

22 baton on the night in question. Now, what is your

23 answer to that?

24 A. It is not true.

25 Q. You are lying. You were in that crowd, weren't you?

1 A. Not from my statement, no.

2 Q. You were in Portadown all right?

3 A. From my statement, yes.

4 Q. You were in Portadown from the statement and the

5 statement wasn't made up. It was in that statement, you

6 are accepting, those are the bits that you are prepared

7 to give evidence about: yes, I was in Portadown but I

8 was an innocent bystander at the church just watching

9 the action until two gentleman police officers escorted

10 me down the street. Is that what the summing up of your

11 memory at the time that you made your statement, your

12 interview, was?

13 A. That is what I say in my statement, yes.

14 Q. Yes, and since then you have had further complete and

15 utter lack of all recall?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You are telling lies?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You were there, you were in that crowd, you were trying

20 to push through the front that of crowd to the extent

21 that Reserve Constable Atkinson had to strike you with a baton on your stomach,

22 and that is what happened?

23 A. No.

24 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

1 MR UNDERWOOD: I would like to touch again on the question

2 of tattoos, but this would be with a view to the

3 reference to the PSNI for a prosecution for perjury. It

4 may well be that the cautious view that Mr McComb takes

5 ought to be put into effect now and that he be given

6 a chance to talk to the witness even though he is still

7 on oath.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well, we will rise for a few minutes.

9 (3.05 pm)

10 (Short adjournment)

11 (3.25 pm)

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

13 MR McCOMB: Sir, we are grateful for the opportunity that

14 you have given us, sir.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: We don't have a witness, that is all.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

17 MR McCOMB: Sir, we have taken the opportunity to consult

18 with our client and, indeed, ourselves to view the

19 tattoo on his left forearm or left upper arm, and we can

20 acknowledge that there is written on that the word "REM

21 1690."

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: That being so, I have no further questions.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go then.

25 A. Thank you.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Jonathan Wright, please. We're suffering

2 from the fact that one of the witness rooms is rather

3 further away than the other one, I am afraid, it will

4 only take a moment. (Pause)

5 There is some technical hitch. I wonder if it might

6 be better to rise.

7 (3.28 pm)

8 (Short adjournment)

9 (3.39 pm)

10 MR UNDERWOOD: I hope we can now have Mr Wright.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Before you call this witness, I should make

12 it clear that a report will be made to the

13 Director of Public Prosecutions as a result of perjury

14 committed by the last witness.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: I see, thank you.

16 MR JONATHAN WRIGHT (affirmed)

17 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

18 MR UNDERWOOD: Mr Wright. I'm really sorry you have been

19 kept waiting all the time. Can you tell us your full

20 names, please?

21 A. Jonathan Samuel James Wright.

22 Q. Thank you. I think you have signed a witness statement,

23 page [81307]. Can we just flick through the several

24 pages of that to make sure you can identify it as your

25 statement?

1 A. Yes, it is, yes.

2 Q. Just run through the nine pages of it quite quickly

3 then. Subject to one matter, which is at page [81309],

4 at paragraph 10 you say there, you have:

5 "... marked on the map at page 72903 where the bus

6 would stop with a 'B'."

7 Take it from me that is page 73903.

8 Subject to that, is there anything you would want to

9 alter or revise in that, or add to, rather?

10 A. Not -- as far as I can remember, the Coach bus will have

11 stopped within our vicinity.

12 Q. Sorry, that was a bad question. Apart from me putting

13 that number right, is that statement accurate?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I just want to ask you a few

16 additional questions, if I may. It may well be that

17 when I finish that other people may have a few questions

18 for you as well.

19 What I want to ask you about is, for a start,

20 identifying some of the documents that you refer to in

21 there. Can we have a look first at page [08147]. This

22 is what we call a QPF, a questionnaire that was

23 administered to you on 11 May 1997. Is that the one you

24 are referring to in your statement?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you. Then I want to show you the first witness

2 statement you made at page [09137] and this is taken

3 from you the same day, 11 May 1997. And I want to take

4 you to page [09139]. If we highlight all of this, you

5 start by explaining there that you were up by the church

6 where the Christmas tree used to be. Marc Hobson was

7 beside you, you said there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then you go on:

10 "I could see a lot of people being pushed towards us

11 by the police, there would have been about 20 in the

12 crowd. They were shouting at the police and pointing

13 their fingers at them. I seen police but I couldn't say

14 how many police there were. I couldn't hear what the

15 crowd were shouting. I stood looking round for Allister

16 ..."

17 That is Hanvey, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "... but couldn't see him. I didn't see anybody

20 fighting. I saw two ambulances and they were carrying

21 somebody on a stretcher into the ambulance. The police

22 were in row pushing the crowd up the street towards us.

23 I saw Stacey Bridgett walk up the left-hand side of the

24 street. He was about the First Trust Bank. Stacey was

25 walking with somebody, but I do not know who it was.

1 Marc and I decided to go home. This would be about five

2 past two. The police had the crowd under control then.

3 "I walked up the left-hand side of the church and

4 the Marc walked up the right-hand side of the church. I

5 didn't get involved in any fighting and I did not see

6 anybody fighting, only the crowd being pushed up the

7 street. I was wearing light blue jeans, brown walking

8 boots, green bomber jacket and light blue teeshirt,

9 round-necked type, the word 'Kangol' is printed on the

10 front of the teeshirt. Marc was wearing blue jeans,

11 white trainers, blue sweater. I can't remember if he

12 was wearing a jacket. Allister was wearing light blue

13 jeans, tracksuit top, grey colour with the zip up the

14 front of it. The top had orange stripes on both arms

15 which went down to the elbows.

16 "On the Saturday night in question, I would have

17 drunk a bottle of Olde Englishe cider and a few tins of

18 beer."

19 If I understand it right, your evidence now is that

20 that was the true account; is that right?

21 A. Yes, most definitely, yes.

22 Q. Have you recollection of all of that now or do you just

23 recall it being true when you made it?

24 A. True when I made it. Thinking back now I remember very,

25 very little.

1 Q. Can you help us with the police? One of the matters

2 that the Inquiry is most interested in is whether the

3 police reacted quickly enough, whether they acted well

4 once they did. Did you see any trouble start?

5 A. No, nothing, no.

6 Q. I know you say there you didn't see fighting, but I

7 think you did see some fuss. Is that fair?

8 A. There was just a bit of shouting going on and things

9 like that.

10 Q. You obviously saw police -- you say there in a row

11 pushing the crowd up towards where you were?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Apart from police pushing the crowd up the street, did

14 you get the chance to see the police doing anything

15 else?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. And you are quite clear about all of this,

18 are you?

19 A. Yes, I have read through the statement given, yes.

20 Q. And then if we go to page [09141], this is the statement

21 which was then obtained from you on 15 May 1997. And we

22 have enlarged it here.

23 Your position about this, as I understand this

24 right, is that the officer who took the first statement

25 took this statement?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And, would this be too brutal a way of putting it,

3 bullied you --

4 A. I was put under pressure, yes.

5 Q. Can you explain the circumstances in which you came to

6 give this second statement?

7 A. What happened was my father told me I had a telephone

8 call from the police when I was at home. I was at work

9 that day and then they were looking to me to go back

10 down to the station again. I think they actually called

11 at my house as well that same day and I thought, fine, I

12 will go back down again then, yes.

13 Q. So they contacted you?

14 A. Definitely, yes.

15 Q. And as a result you went to the police station?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And if I could just pick up part of this, what I want

18 you to do is, if you could help us, tell us which parts

19 of this were, as it were, put in your mouth, if that is

20 what you are saying happened. If we pick this up from

21 about three lines down, you say:

22 "The content of my first statement is correct up to

23 where we got to the church in the centre of the town.

24 When Marc Hobson and I walked down the town and got to

25 the front of the church where the Christmas tree was, we

1 walked a few yards further down the street. We walked

2 down the centre of the street. I could see a fight

3 further down the town in the middle of the street

4 between Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street."

5 Was that true?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How did that get put in your statement?

8 A. Basically, whenever I went down to the police station --

10 Q. Just call him the police officer?

11 A. Yes, the police officer basically -- he had told me that

12 I wasn't telling the truth, that I had withheld

13 information and that he thought I knew more than what I

14 was telling.

15 Q. Hm-mm. How did it go from there to him writing

16 a statement for you which had things in it which weren't

17 true?

18 A. Basically what happened was he was making suggestions to

19 me about events that had happened that he knew that had

20 happened that night. He basically said that he knew

21 that Allister and Marc was at the scene and, basically,

22 I hadn't told him the whole truth in my first statement.

23 Q. I see. How did it go? Was he writing down things as

24 the interview was going on or did you have the interview

25 and then he write it down?

1 A. No, we were just talking with each other first of all

2 and he was accusing me of those things. This was before

3 the statement was --

4 Q. Did you actually accept any of these before he wrote it

5 in the statement?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So is this fair: he was saying, we know X, Y and Z, you

8 are not telling the truth?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you didn't accept X, Y and Z; is that right? You

11 didn't say, "Yes, you are right, officer --

12 A. No, I was very adamant that I had told him everything

13 that I knew in the first statement, but he just didn't

14 accept that. He just wouldn't accept that, that I told

15 him everything that I knew in the first statement, that

16 I did not have anything else to tell him. You know, I

17 had told him the truth.

18 Q. He ended up writing this statement then and, I presume,

19 in long hand?

20 A. Oh, yes, yes.

21 Q. Why did you sign it?

22 A. Basically I just wanted to get out of there. I just

23 felt as though I had to tell him something just to get

24 out of here. He just wouldn't accept what I was telling

25 him.

1 Q. When you said you felt you had to tell him something, do

2 you mean you did actually tell him things that are in

3 here or are you just saying that you signed it?

4 A. No. Well, I made things up. I just -- I just had to

5 tell him something that would get me out of there, you

6 know.

7 Q. Right. So you accept, then, if I get this right -- and

8 tell me if I have got this wrong -- that some of the

9 things that were put into this statement you did say,

10 but you said them under pressure to get out. Is that

11 what you're saying?

12 A. Most definitely, yes.

13 Q. So let's go through this. You said here:

14 "I could see a fight further down the town in the

15 middle of the street."

16 Now, are you telling the Inquiry that you said that,

17 even though it wasn't true? Is that one of the things

18 you said to get out, or can you remember what you said

19 now?

20 A. I don't actually remember word for word what I had said.

21 Q. Then it goes on:

22 "I was about 30 yards from the fight. There were

23 about 20 to 30 people in the middle of street."

24 All that of was outside your knowledge, was it, in

25 fact?

1 A. I think that is something that I had probably said just

2 to get out of there.

3 Q. Okay, what you are telling us now is that you didn't

4 know that. You hadn't seen it. Is that right?

5 A. No, I didn't see it, no.

6 Q. Then it goes on:

7 "I saw a person standing behind the crowd in the

8 middle of street. This man was wearing a blue shirt and

9 striped tie. He was wearing dark trousers which

10 appeared smart. This man was shouting towards the crowd

11 of Protestants to come on."

12 Now, how did that sort of detail get in there? Was

13 this suggested to you or is this something you did in

14 fact see?

15 A. It was something that the police officer had asked me

16 had I seen this person.

17 Q. Okay. There was fighting going on in the crowd he was

18 shouting at. It goes on:

19 "I would say he was approximately 25 years old, had

20 very short hair, about number 2 cut. Marc then left me

21 and ran down into the crowd fighting in the middle of

22 the road."

23 How did that get in there?

24 A. Well, basically the police detective had said that he

25 knew that Marc was there, was present and that he wasn't

1 with me.

2 Q. And then:

3 "I stood there. I would have been standing at the

4 edge of the flower beds, facing the Abbey National. I

5 could see Marc being pushed about by the crowd. I saw

6 him lift his hand and reach out for somebody. I didn't

7 see him hit anybody."

8 So what you have signed up to is Marc Hobson

9 running, getting in there, but not fighting with

10 anybody. Why did you, if I can use this phrase, pull

11 your punches there? Why didn't --

12 A. Well, I didn't see him punch anybody. That was just

13 something that I made up just to give the detective so

14 that I maybe would get out of there. I felt I had to

15 give him something because he just wasn't accepting what

16 I was saying, you know, that I had told him everything

17 that I had known in my first statement.

18 Q. "Then there was a lot of shouting, people shouting

19 Fenian bastards, et cetera. There was two or three from

20 the Catholic crowd shouting too. They were trading

21 insults, calling the Protestants Orange bastards. The

22 fight lasted about five to ten minutes. I saw

23 Rory Robinson in the middle of the crowd. He was

24 running around like a headless chicken. I saw Stacey

25 Bridgett trading punches with one person."

1 Now, those naming of names there -- Rory Robinson

2 running round like a headless chicken, Stacey Bridgett

3 trading punches with a person -- how did they get in

4 there?

5 A. Before the statement was taken down, written down, the

6 detective had asked me -- well, what he was saying was

7 that he knew that I wasn't telling the truth. He seemed

8 convinced that I was closer to what had happened than

9 what I said I had. He said I know you were closer

10 there. You must have seen Stacey Bridgett. You must

11 have seen Rory Robinson there as well. I know you were

12 there.

13 Q. Did he suggest the words:

14 "... running round like a headless chicken"?

15 A. No, that was my words.

16 Q. So you made it up?

17 A. Of course, yes.

18 Q. So had you actually heard anything on the street, as it

19 were, between the events of 27 April and the date you

20 made this statement, anything about what had happened?

21 A. I don't understand you.

22 Q. On 27 April, you didn't see the fight, you saw the fuss

23 and you went off home?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. By the time you came to make this statement, what I'm

1 asking is had you heard any more about what had happened

2 on the night? Had people spoken to you?

3 A. No, nothing.

4 Q. Right. Then if we go on to page 16591, this is a note

5 of a consultation with you. It is most of a note of

6 a consultation with you -- we are missing some of the

7 words on the right -- on 17 October 1997 where you went

8 to the Director of Public Prosecutions' office and there

9 was a QC, a detective superintendent and a detective

10 sergeant -- not the policeman who had taken either of

11 the statements from you. Do you recall that?

12 A. I remember very little about actually being down at this

13 meeting, to be honest, you know.

14 Q. Let me just read to you the second paragraph of this:

15 "Jonathan Wright presents as a reasonably well

16 dressed, working class young man. He is not very

17 articulate and tends to mumble and speak quietly. He's

18 not a very impressive witness but will be probably be

19 adequate. He had a good memory of the events and was

20 able to relate the incidents more or less in accordance

21 with his statement. However, while in his statement he

22 refers to his friend Marc as being involved in fighting,

23 during consultation he describes him as pulling people

24 out of the fight. Jonathan Wright didn't indicate any

25 unwillingness to give evidence."

1 What the Inquiry needs to understand -- because it

2 needs to weigh up, for example, what Rory Robinson was

3 doing, what Stacey Bridgett was doing, it needs to

4 understand as clear as it can whether your first

5 statement is right or your second statement is right and

6 whether you are now, as it were, rowing back from the

7 second statement in order to protect someone. Do you

8 follow me?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What you are doing here in this consultation, according

11 to this note, is that you are making it better for

12 Marc Hobson -- Marc was your friend, wasn't he?

13 A. Oh, yes.

14 Q. And so from the second statement, where you have him

15 going into the fighting but not punching anybody, here

16 he is the good Samaritan and he is pulling people out of

17 the fight.

18 Now, if you didn't see a fight, why didn't you just

19 say when you went to this consultation, "Look, sorry, I

20 was under such pressure on the second statement,

21 I really can't rely on that"?

22 A. Because I was afraid that if I had told him that, that I

23 had lied to the police, I would get into, you know,

24 trouble. It was an offence to lie to the police, you

25 know. So I basically felt that I would get into more

1 trouble if I had told them that.

2 Q. So you were in a difficult position where you didn't

3 want to put yourself in trouble, but you wanted to get

4 Marc out of trouble. Is that fair? You want to do the

5 right thing by Marc?

6 A. I didn't see Marc down at the fight, you know, that was

7 something that I made up just to get out of that

8 interview at the police station.

9 Q. But what I'm suggesting to you is that you were taking

10 care here to do your best to make sure that there wasn't

11 a false allegation made against Marc. Is that right?

12 A. I don't really understand what you mean.

13 Q. What you didn't say here is, "My statement is false" and

14 the reason you didn't do that was because, you just told

15 us, you will be in trouble?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But you did make efforts to make sure that no false

18 allegation was continued against your friend Marc

19 because what you told people at this meeting was Marc

20 was the good guy. Do you understand me?

21 A. Not really.

22 Q. All right, don't worry.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: You were trying to put Marc Hobson in the

24 clear?

25 A. Well, Marc wasn't there.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: I know. Having said in an earlier statement

2 that he was there, rather than open yourself up to

3 trouble by saying that was not true, you were not saying

4 that, but instead putting Marc Hobson in the clear by

5 what you did say at this consultation?

6 A. As I said earlier, this is something that I have very,

7 very little memory of, being actually down here speaking

8 to these people.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: What did you think was going to happen at

10 about this time? This is October 1997. Did you think

11 there would be a trial at which you gave evidence?

12 A. I had no idea.

13 Q. Was there any discussion, can you recall, about whether

14 you would end up giving evidence?

15 A. Not that I can recall, sorry.

16 Q. All right. There is some suggestion that some witnesses

17 from the Portadown area who were in town on the night of

18 26 and 27 April 1997 have been afraid, either to talk to

19 the police or to talk to the Inquiry, because they fear

20 reprisals from paramilitary or whoever, and some

21 witnesses who have given very clear evidence or clear

22 witness statements which they have now retracted, and

23 you gave, of course, the first witness statement and

24 then a second witness statement and then you retracted

25 the second witness statement?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what I want to ask you is was there any element of

3 fear which caused you to take your second statement

4 back?

5 A. From members of the community or anything like that?

6 Q. Yes, anybody?

7 A. No, none whatsoever.

8 Q. It took time, didn't it, for you to take that second

9 statement back?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How come?

12 A. Well, as I said earlier, I knew that I had lied to the

13 police, I had made a false statement up. I didn't want

14 to get into more trouble than what I thought I could be

15 in. Well, I had called the police station as well and I

16 had asked to speak to --

17 Q. A policeman, the one who took the statement?

18 A. That policeman, yes.

19 Q. You wanted to get in touch with the one who bullied you?

20 A. I left a few messages and had asked could he get back to

21 me, that I needed to speak to him again, and that I

22 wanted to retract this second statement.

23 Q. Just one other matter at the end of this, is this the

24 position with that police officer that he came down very

25 heavily on you on the basis that he was telling you he

1 thought you were more involved than you were admitting?

2 A. Yes, definitely, yes.

3 Q. What's more, he was putting suggestions, or rather

4 putting to you what happened and was suggesting to you

5 that you must have known about that; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that is right, yes.

7 Q. And as a result of the pressure he put on you, you told

8 him things --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- which weren't true?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. As I say, other people

13 may ask you some questions.

14 Questions by MR FERGUSON

15 MR FERGUSON: Mr Wright, I don't quite follow, I am afraid.

16 The meeting you had in October in the DPP's office, do

17 you remember that meeting?

18 A. Very, very little, sorry.

19 Q. But what had happened to you, according to your

20 evidence, was that a police officer had forced you into

21 saying things or agreeing to things which weren't true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Right? And here you are then in October of 1997, some

24 five months later, and were you told who was at that

25 meeting at the DPP's office, whether there was a QC

100

1 there, for instance?

2 A. I don't remember if I was told who was going to be

3 there. I don't recall, sorry.

4 Q. It was certainly an opportunity if you had wished to

5 avail yourself to say to somebody who was not a member

6 of the police force, "Look, I was forced into making

7 that statement"?

8 A. Well, looking back now, I understand that clearly, yes.

9 Q. Why didn't you do that?

10 A. Because I had lied to the police. I had told them

11 something that wasn't true in my second statement and I

12 was afraid of getting into more trouble, making a false

13 statement which I knew was an offence.

14 Q. But you had already told the lies, according to your

15 evidence, in your second statement; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So that was over with?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And your evidence is that you made that second statement

20 under pressure from a police officer?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yes. And this was your golden opportunity, surely, in

23 the DPP's office to say, "Look, I want to get the record

24 straight here. That second statement is not true, I did

25 not make it voluntarily"?

101

1 A. I understand that, yes.

2 Q. But you didn't do that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And just tell me again why you didn't do that?

5 A. Because I didn't, because I had told lies in my second

6 statement and I had felt that I would be in a lot of

7 trouble because I had given a false statement.

8 Q. Have you sought to take advice from anyone, from your

9 father, for instance?

10 A. No, no one. I just bottled everything up and kept it to

11 myself.

12 Q. Yes. I mean, on the first occasion this police officer

13 behaved perfectly properly to you, didn't he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And on the second occasion, he was a different animal

16 altogether?

17 A. Totally, yes.

18 Q. Well, when you were being asked to make the second

19 statement and when you were making this lying second

20 statement, before doing that, did you say to the

21 Officer, "Look, I'm not happy with this. I would like

22 to see some more senior person"?

23 A. Well, when he was accusing me of telling lies and that I

24 had told him all that I had known, I asked to speak

25 to -- could I speak to a legal representative.

102

1 Q. And what was the reply?

2 A. Well, the reply was that there was no one available at

3 the station and that the solicitor that could have came

4 was in Lurgan police station.

5 Q. Did you say, "Well, I would rather wait and speak to him

6 before continuing with this interview"?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. I suggest to you that in fact what you told the police

9 in that second statement was the truth?

10 A. No, it is not the truth. It is wrong.

11 Q. And that you are frightened now to own up to that?

12 A. No, definitely no.

13 Q. And particularly that you are frightened to get any of

14 your friends into trouble?

15 A. No, it is not true.

16 Questions by MR O'HARE

17 MR O'HARE: If I may, sir, now, Mr Wright, so that I just

18 get this correct in my own mind, when you were making

19 that second statement, this officer was putting to you

20 what had happened?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He was telling you what had happened?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were agreeing with him?

25 A. While the statement was being written, or ...?

103

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Well, I was adding words to it as well, yes.

3 Q. You were adding words to it as well. So it was

4 a combination then of things that he was saying that he

5 wanted you to say and then you would add your lie as

6 well, as it were?

7 A. That is what it felt like, yes.

8 Q. Well, was that what happened?

9 A. Pretty much, yes.

10 Q. Pretty much. Can I just bring you back there? How did

11 you feel when you heard the news that Robert Hamill had

12 died?

13 A. Shocked, I guess, because it had happened in Portadown

14 and I lived there. I was pretty stunned, shocked.

15 Q. But you were closer to it than that, isn't that correct,

16 Mr Wright, the events of this evening?

17 A. I don't understand --

18 Q. In your first statement to the police, which is

19 page [09137] -- perhaps that could be brought up. It is

20 [09138] at the bottom. It is the last two lines. Yes,

21 that's grand. The last two lines:

22 "I didn't meet anybody I knew. We got to the big

23 church in the centre of town. I stood on a round wall

24 in front of the church where the Christmas tree used to

25 be. Marc was beside me."

104

1 Then you go on to describe how you saw two

2 ambulances and they were carrying someone on to

3 a stretcher into the ambulance. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in the days afterwards, you realised that was

6 Robert Hamill?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you were shocked when you heard he died?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you distressed by the news of his death?

11 A. Well, I didn't know him personally so I was still

12 stunned that something had happened so close to my house

13 and in town.

14 Q. Would you ever have told anybody that you were

15 distressed?

16 A. Who do you mean?

17 Q. Would you have ever told anybody that you were

18 distressed when you heard he had died?

19 A. Probably not, no.

20 Q. Probably not. Now, in 1997 you were 18 at the time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were working?

23 A. Yes, I was working, yes.

24 Q. And you lived with your father?

25 A. Yes, with my dad.

105

1 Q. And he worked for the Church of Ireland?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that in a church itself?

4 A. Yes, he worked inside a church, yes.

5 Q. He worked inside a church. I don't intend to ask you

6 where now, Mr Wright. How long, roughly, had he worked

7 in that job, in 1997?

8 A. If I can recall, five or six years.

9 Q. Five/six years. Was he working for a minister in that

10 church?

11 A. He would have been, yes.

12 Q. Do you recall who that minister was?

13 A. Mr [name redacted], I think his name was.

14 Q. Did you know him?

15 A. I had met him a few times.

16 Q. Had he been in your house?

17 A. I think so, yes, a few times. I couldn't honestly say

18 how many times but he had been in.

19 Q. I appreciate it is a while back in 1997, but certainly

20 he had been in your house and you had met him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you mind me asking, did you attend church on

23 a regular basis?

24 A. I wasn't a churchgoer, no.

25 Q. You weren't a churchgoer. Now, you knew Dean Forbes;

106

1 isn't that correct?

2 A. I know Dean from primary school, yes.

3 Q. You knew Fonzy Allen; isn't that correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't know him? Did you know Rory Robinson?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know Victoria Clayton?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You didn't. Now, in 1997 did Marc Hobson have a goatee

10 beard?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He had a goatee beard on the night the two of you were

13 in front of the church; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, in your first statement of 11 May that is on the

16 screen, by this stage Robert Hamill had died; isn't that

17 correct? This is 11 May. Perhaps you don't recall --

18 A. I'm sorry, I don't know.

19 Q. (Overtalking) he was at that stage. And Hobson, Hanvey,

20 Robinson and Bridgett, they'd been arrested for his

21 murder by 11 May?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And on 11 May, you were aware that those individuals had

24 been arrested for his murder; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes.

107

1 Q. You knew this when you went down to the police station

2 or wherever it was you made that first statement on

3 11 May?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. And you would have been aware from the talk around

6 the town, can we take it, that there was an allegation

7 that people who were getting off the bus coming from the

8 Coach Inn in Banbridge had been involved in this

9 fighting with Catholics and the police and the riot

10 situation, as it were, that had occurred this night at

11 the junction of Thomas Street and Market Street?

12 A. That people from the Coach bus was ...

13 Q. Yes, had been involved in the fracas at the junction of

14 Market Street and Thomas Street.

15 A. I wasn't aware of that.

16 Q. You weren't aware of that come 11 May when you made the

17 statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Stacey Bridgett, he had been arrested by 11 May. Isn't

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you knew that he was on the bus coming from the

23 Coach Inn from Banbridge that night; isn't that correct?

24 The night of the 27th, in the early hours of the

25 morning; isn't that correct?

108

1 A. I was pretty sure that he was going to the Coach that

2 night.

3 Q. You were pretty sure?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You did say in your first statement that you saw him

6 walking up the street; isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were there others that you recognised who would have

9 been at the Coach in Banbridge?

10 A. Who do you mean?

11 Q. For example, you are sitting there at the church,

12 looking down and you can see a fracas coming on. Isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you recognise anybody in the middle that of

16 crowd who you knew?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Nobody?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And is it your evidence that in the days subsequent to

21 the events of this evening, the early morning, that you

22 weren't that there was an allegation that people who had

23 been coming back on the bus from the Coach Inn in

24 Banbridge -- you weren't aware that there was an

25 allegation or talk that they were supposed to be some of

109

1 the people involved in this fracas?

2 A. On, I hadn't spoken to anybody about it.

3 Q. Not even by 11 May?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Two weeks after the events of this night?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Well, when you went to make this statement on 11 May,

8 you were aware that the reason that the police wanted to

9 take that statement of you was because they were

10 investigating the death of Robert Hamill?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you gave that account in that statement of the

13 11 May to the police. Perhaps page [81307] could be put

14 up on the screen, please. And at paragraph 9, please,

15 perhaps that could be highlighted. Sorry, perhaps we

16 could go back to paragraph 8 -- my apologies -- and then

17 paragraph 9. Paragraph 8:

18 "By the time we left Dean's flat, I was a happy

19 medium level of drunk, neither sober nor legless. I

20 don't believe that Marc and Allister were drunk either.

21 As I was hungry, we headed down to the Chinese takeaway

22 at the top of Jervis Street and West Street in

23 Portadown."

24 Then you proceed to mark the location of the

25 premises on a map, and then perhaps paragraph 9, please:

110

1 "We intended to meet people coming off the bus from

2 the Coach Inn."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "There are some people on that bus we would have known

6 because they were our friends. For example, I believe

7 that Stacey Bridgett would have been at the Coach Inn

8 that night. Nothing was planned, we were just going to

9 meet people off the bus and then, if there was a party

10 or gathering later that evening, then we would take it

11 from there. The people coming off the bus wouldn't have

12 been expecting us."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that is accurate?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this statement is based on an interview that took

17 place on 9 May 2006?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So the reason why you went on down was to meet these

20 people coming off the Coach?

21 A. I knew that the bus would be arriving into town and we

22 thought there might have been a party later on that

23 night somewhere.

24 Q. And the reason why there would have been friends on the

25 bus?

111

1 A. I knew Stacey was going to the Coach that night.

2 Q. You knew Stacey was going or you believed Stacey was

3 going?

4 A. Earlier on that day, he said he was going to go.

5 I believed he was going to go.

6 Q. Did he say who was going with?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You proceeded at paragraph 10 -- perhaps that could be

9 highlighted -- and then you said:

10 "I had marked on the map at page 73903 where the

11 bus would stop."

12 And you marked it on the map with a letter B. Do

13 you recall doing that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, this statement of 11 May 1997, the first statement

16 that you made to the police officer, that is what you

17 recall, if I might use the phrase, the truthful

18 statement?

19 A. Most definitely, yes.

20 Q. Could I ask you this, Mr Wright: why did you not tell

21 the police that that statement, when you made it, this

22 statement on 11 May, you were going on down to meet

23 people off the bus that was coming from the Coach in

24 Banbridge?

25 A. I mustn't have been asked that question on that evening.

112

1 Q. You weren't? Well, the statement that you gave -- and

2 perhaps page [09138] could be put back again, please.

3 And at the top half -- could it be highlighted,

4 please -- you see this statement:

5 "I know Dean Johnson. I got to know him through

6 Marc. Dean was there [this is Dean Johnson's flat] with

7 his girlfriend Leanne. We sat drinking and watched TV."

8 This is an account of what you were doing on the

9 night; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is right.

11 Q. "I had been to Dean's flat before, three to four times,

12 at weekends. We stayed there to approximately 1.30 am

13 and then Allister, Marc and I left and started walking

14 towards the town. We wanted to get something to eat.

15 We walked to the Chinese in West Street. We all went

16 down and got something to eat."

17 You then go on to describe when you got to eat:

18 "I can't remember what Allister got. We left the

19 Chinese about 1.40, continued to walk towards the town

20 centre. We just wanted to eat our meal at the summer

21 seats in front of the big church in the centre of the

22 town."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you understand that?

25 A. Yes.

113

1 Q. Isn't the impression that you were giving the police

2 there that that is how you came to be on the summer

3 seats outside the church when these events were

4 unfolding further on down the street?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You didn't mention to the police that you were going to

7 go on down and meet those coming off the bus, coming

8 from the Coach Inn in Banbridge?

9 A. But there was nothing definite planned to meet them.

10 Q. Why then did you tell the Inquiry at paragraph 9 of your

11 Inquiry statement:

12 "We intended to meet people coming off the bus from

13 the Coach Inn"?

14 A. Well, we were looking for a party. So we would have met

15 people coming from the Coach bus. But there was nothing

16 arranged to meet people from the Coach bus. We knew

17 when the Coach bus would be arriving in town.

18 Q. Why did you not tell the police in that statement of

19 11 May 1997, Mr Wright, that you intended to meet people

20 off this bus?

21 A. We didn't intend to meet people from the bus. There was

22 nothing planned.

23 Q. Can we take it that at paragraph 9 of your Inquiry

24 statement -- I'm not going to go on about this,

25 Mr Wright -- whether you say in that statement:

114

1 "We intended to meet people coming off the bus from

2 the Coach Inn. That wasn't correct"?

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is on a false premise, isn't it?

4 I can intend to do something albeit I haven't made an

5 arrangement with them.

6 A. No, there was nothing arranged --

7 MR O'HARE: Yes, well, I'll leave it at that. Well, in any

8 event there was no mention about the bus coming from the

9 Coach Inn in that first statement to the police, sure

10 there wasn't?

11 A. No.

12 Q. No. Do you recall why you started to talk to the

13 Inquiry about intending to meet people from the bus

14 coming from the Coach Inn?

15 A. Maybe I would have been asked that question had

16 I intended -- was there intentions for me to meet people

17 from the Coach bus.

18 Q. Do you recall being shown or being told that is what

19 Marc Hobson had told the police?

20 A. No, I don't recall that.

21 Q. You don't recall that. In that first statement that is

22 on the screen, it is at page [09139] -- perhaps the top

23 half could be highlighted. Do you see the sentence:

24 "I saw Stacey Bridgett walk up the left-hand side of

25 the street. He was about the First Trust Bank. Stacey

115

1 was walking with someone, but I didn't know who it was."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you notice anything about Stacey when he was walking

4 up the left-hand side of the street?

5 A. No, nothing unusual, no.

6 Q. Well, did you go over to talk to Stacey?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why not?

9 A. Well, he didn't see us.

10 Q. He was a friend of yours, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes, he was. I knew Stacey from school, yes.

12 Q. You believe he may have been at the Coach Inn that

13 night?

14 A. Yes, I do believe, yes.

15 Q. Why didn't you go over and shout, "How are you, Stacey"?

16 A. He was walking home. I was with other people.

17 Q. No, you were with Marc Hobson, weren't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just the two of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And Marc Hobson knew Stacey Bridgett?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why did you not shout over to Stacey, "How are you,

24 Stacey"? Or why did you not go over to him?

25 A. I can't answer that.

116

1 Q. Was his nose bleeding?

2 A. I didn't see his nose bleeding.

3 Q. Did he come over to the church or the area that you were

4 in front of the church?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You didn't see anybody wipe his nose, wipe the blood off

7 his nose?

8 A. No.

9 Q. If you had have seen Stacey Bridgett with a bloody nose

10 would you have told the police that in your statement of

11 11 May 1997?

12 A. Yes, I would.

13 Q. You would have?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There was a fight or fracas going on down the street;

16 isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Stacey walked past this. Is that your evidence?

19 A. I didn't see Stacey in the crowd.

20 Q. He walked past it, he wasn't in the crowd?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 Q. That is your recollection today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This fracas is going on and Stacey is walking past it,

25 not getting involved in it?

117

1 A. Stacey wasn't anywhere near what was happening.

2 Q. And you didn't notice that he had a bloody nose?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If you had have noticed that he had a bloody nose coming

5 up from that direction, would you have told the police

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Even though, with a fracas going on and somebody with

9 a bloody nose, it might give the indication to the

10 police that he was involved in this fracas?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You see, I suggest to you that the evidence has been so

13 far -- by this stage, Stacey Bridgett had a bloody nose

14 and that is something that you couldn't have failed to

15 see?

16 A. Well, I didn't see it.

17 Q. And you didn't put it in your statement for a reason?

18 A. Well, I didn't see it. That's why I didn't put it in my

19 statement.

20 Q. When Allister Hanvey left you prior to you arriving at

21 the church, you didn't see him again that night; is that

22 correct?

23 A. That is correct, yes.

24 Q. And yourself and Marc Hobson sat on the summer seats?

25 A. In front of the church.

118

1 Q. You didn't stand on the round wall or anything?

2 A. I don't recall, no.

3 Q. No, you don't recall. Well, certainly you told the

4 police in your statement of 11 May that you stood on

5 a round wall. Do you recall that?

6 A. If it says -- if that is what it says in my statement,

7 then, yes, I'm sure it did. I just don't recall that

8 night.

9 Q. So you don't recall whether you stood on a round wall or

10 whether you actually sat on the seats, the summer seats?

11 A. I'm pretty sure we sat in front of the church, yes.

12 Q. But in any event, your evidence is that nobody joined

13 you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Sorry, nobody did join you?

16 A. Nobody joined me, no.

17 Q. And that Marc Hobson arrived at the front of the church

18 in these summer seats at the same time as you did?

19 A. Yes, Marc was with me.

20 Q. And he remained with you at all times?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that he never went down or near this crowd, this man

23 with the goatee beard?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And you are sure about that?

119

1 A. Positive.

2 Q. And then the two of you left at the same time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And by this stage -- of course you didn't see any

5 fighting; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Because at this stage, the police had got the situation

8 under control?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in fact had pushed this crowd back up the street

11 towards the church?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How far away from you would this crowd have been when

14 you decided to go home?

15 A. I couldn't give you an exact distance.

16 Q. Well, this room, for example: twice the length of this

17 room or the width of this room?

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you will find that trying to

19 associate a distance indoors with a distance outdoors is

20 very difficult. You can look at the footings of a new

21 building and you wonder how people live in such a pokey

22 place.

23 MR O'HARE: In any event, Mr Wright, you didn't see any

24 fighting?

25 A. No.

120

1 Q. If we come to the second statement that was taken by the

2 same police officer, that is the untruthful statement as

3 you have told us?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also told us that it was your father alerted you to

6 the fact that the police wanted to speak to you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You are not sure if they had phoned or whether they had

9 called up to the house?

10 A. I think they telephoned and they called at the house

11 that day.

12 Q. And it was your father alerted you to that?

13 A. Yes, my father told me.

14 Q. How long were you in the police station on this second

15 occasion, roughly?

16 A. A lot longer than the first one, I know that for sure

17 but I couldn't give you an exact timescale.

18 Q. Was it in the morning, afternoon or evening?

19 A. It was in the evening.

20 Q. Do you recall roughly what time you got home at?

21 A. I'm sorry, I can't.

22 Q. No idea?

23 A. I couldn't say for sure, sorry.

24 Q. Well, was it nine o'clock or midnight?

25 A. Well, it wasn't midnight.

121

1 Q. And you have no idea how long you were in the police

2 station?

3 A. I don't remember what time I went down at. I know it

4 was the evening because I would have been working that

5 day, so it was possibly seven, 7 pm possibly.

6 Q. Am I correct in saying that not only did this policeman

7 bully or intimidate you or put words into your mouth,

8 but he also threatened you in effect, didn't he?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. He threatened that you were due to go away on holiday

11 that weekend; isn't that correct?

12 A. That Saturday morning.

13 Q. You must have told him that?

14 A. Yes, my father could have told him as well.

15 Q. But he threatened that you wouldn't be going away on any

16 holiday with your girlfriend. Is that what you say?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that she would have been humiliated?

19 A. Yes, she had have been.

20 Q. That is what he told you. He told you that she would be

21 humiliated?

22 A. Yes, he was saying imagine how she would feel if she

23 went into work on Monday morning. We were actually

24 working together at the same time in the same company.

25 Q. And he insinuated in so many words that you would be

122

1 charged like Hobson and Hanvey?

2 A. Well, I was with those two that evening, so yes.

3 Q. Insinuated that to you, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He was threatening to charge you with the same offence

6 that two people that you knew had already been charged

7 with?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And also that when your father got to hear of this, that

10 he would be humiliated in his workplace, in the church?

11 A. Because my father was well-known inside the church. He

12 knew lots of people and would be humiliated and it would

13 be very embarrassing for him.

14 Q. This is if you were charged?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that, can we take it, is the reason why you signed

17 this statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yes. You signed the certificate at the top of the

20 statement, the declaration that it was a true statement?

21 A. Sorry, I don't see that.

22 Q. Perhaps page [09137]. You see where it says:

23 "The statement of Jonathan Samuel James Wright."

24 Then there's a declaration:

25 "I declare that this statement consisting of five

123

1 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my

2 knowledge"?

3 A. Yes, I see that.

4 Q. And your signature would have appeared on the words

5 shown on the screen there, on the bottom right of that

6 excerpt there? Your signature would appear there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you would have read over this declaration?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That is the first statement, but in this second

13 statement that you made, the untruthful statement, you

14 signed the same declaration; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you then signed the end of the statement; isn't that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, when you were being asked about the second

20 statement by the Inquiry -- sorry, you have already told

21 us that you said that you wanted a solicitor?

22 A. During the second statement?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That was at the start when you felt that this police

124

1 officer was getting heavy with you?

2 A. When I felt that the questioning was becoming

3 threatening and very intimidating, and whenever I had

4 told him that I knew that I had told him all that I had

5 known, that was when I asked for a legal representative,

6 yes.

7 Q. And did you ask for a solicitor by name?

8 A. Well, I didn't know any. I just wanted to speak to

9 someone.

10 Q. You didn't know any solicitors?

11 A. Yes. I wouldn't have known their telephone numbers to

12 get in touch with these.

13 Q. Did you have a family solicitor at the time?

14 A. No, not that I recall, no.

15 Q. Well, what I suggest to you -- and I'm going to read

16 this passage out to you, Mr Wright -- that when you were

17 interviewed by the Inquiry, what you said:

18 "I had -- when I felt the questioning was getting

19 out of hand, I said, 'Look, I have told you all that

20 I know' and then, 'I would like to speak to our

21 solicitor'."

22 And you continued down:

23 "I want to speak to my own solicitor."

24 Who did you mean by "our solicitor"?

25 A. I don't remember saying that.

125

1 Q. You don't, but this was a recorded interview that you

2 had with the Inquiry in which you made reference to "our

3 solicitor". I'm asking who "our solicitor" was?

4 A. I guess I just meant a solicitor.

5 Q. Yes. And the next question was:

6 "So the information in this second statement, you

7 are saying does not come from you?"

8 And you said no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Perhaps the second statement, please, at page [09141],

11 please. Just highlight the top half first. The line:

12 "When Marc Hobson and I walked down the town and got

13 to the front of the church where the Christmas tree was,

14 we walked a few yards further down the street."

15 Were those your words to the police officer?

16 A. I can't recall, sorry.

17 Q. You can't recall?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you recall if he told you this is what you are going

20 to say this time?

21 A. I don't think he said that, no.

22 Q. No. So you can't recall whether they are his words or

23 your words?

24 A. No.

25 Q. But certainly you didn't say that in your first

126

1 statement of 11 May. Those words didn't appear in your

2 first statement of 11 May. Isn't that correct?

3 A. Which section do you mean, sorry?

4 Q. "When Marc Hobson and I walked down the town and got to

5 the front of the church where the Christmas tree was, we

6 walked a few yards further on down the street. We

7 walked down the centre of the street."

8 The walking the few yards further down the street,

9 walked down the centre of the street, that actually has

10 you now walking down the centre of the street; isn't

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, that is what I says, yes.

13 Q. Those words didn't appear in your first statement?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Well, did those words in your second statement come from

16 you or did they come from the police officer?

17 A. Again, I can't say for certain.

18 Q. Would you agree with me that if they came from you, it

19 would mean that you hadn't given the police that

20 information in your first statement?

21 A. That wasn't what had actually happened. Me and Marc, we

22 didn't walk further on down the town.

23 Q. Yes, but the question I'm asking you, with respect,

24 Mr Wright, those words:

25 "We walked a few further yards down the street. We

127

1 walked down the centre of the street."

2 You don't know whether those words came from you or

3 whether they came from the police officer?

4 A. No, I can't say for certain.

5 Q. Those words did not appear in the first statement?

6 A. No, they didn't, no.

7 Q. If those words came from you in this second statement,

8 you had not told the police those words in your first

9 statement. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes. If the words came from the police officer, he was

12 telling you, you say, that you went a few yards further

13 down the street and that you walked down the middle of

14 the street. Isn't that correct?

15 A. Again, I don't remember if he had said that.

16 Q. The man with the blue shirt and the striped tie --

17 perhaps if we go further on down that page -- you see:

18 "I saw a person standing behind the crowd in the

19 middle of the street. This man was wearing a blue shirt

20 and a striped tie. He was wearing dark trousers which

21 appeared smart."

22 Did you say those words or did the police officer

23 say those?

24 A. I think he -- whenever there was pressure being put on

25 me before the statement was actually being taken, he was

128

1 suggesting did I see this, did I see that, who did

2 I see.

3 Q. Did he say to you or words to the effect:

4 "We will put in this statement or you will put in

5 this statement about this man with the blue shirt and

6 the striped tie"?

7 A. He would have asked me that: did I see this person.

8 Q. Yes. And what was your answer to that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You just said you did see him?

11 A. Why.

12 Q. So you were just agreeing with that piece of information

13 then and that is the reason why it went into your

14 statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then if we continue further on down:

17 "Marc then left me and ran into the crowd fighting

18 in the middle of the crowd."

19 Did he say that or did he say, "We will put that in

20 the statement"?

21 A. I'm pretty certain I would have said that.

22 Q. You are pretty certain you would have said that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes. Well, why do you think the police officer was

25 getting you to do this or say these things?

129

1 A. I don't know. It just felt totally different than the

2 first time I went down to give my first statement, the

3 whole mood had changed. It just felt totally, totally

4 different.

5 Q. He totally didn't believe your first account; isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you feel that he was trying to stitch Marc up?

9 A. It felt as though he wanted these people, he wanted me

10 to say something that would implicate these people.

11 Q. Say something that would implicate these people?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In effect, stitch them up. You have heard the

14 expression?

15 A. Aye, I know what it means, yes.

16 Q. Do you agree in effect that is what he was trying to do?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then the words:

19 "I didn't see -- well, Marc Hobson as he know had

20 been arrested by this stage for the murder. Isn't that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then your statement:

24 "I didn't see him hit anybody."

25 Were those your words or the police officer's words:

130

1 "I didn't see him hit anybody"?

2 A. They would have been my words.

3 Q. And he was happy enough that those words went in the

4 statement there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes. But it wasn't a question of this police officer

7 intimidating you into saying that you didn't see Marc

8 hit anybody?

9 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question, sorry.

10 Q. Well, can we take it then that those were your words?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And he didn't say anything along the lines of no, we are

13 not having that, we will put in, "I saw Marc Hobson

14 punch someone"?

15 A. No, that didn't happen. He seemed happy with that.

16 Q. He seemed happy with that. And he didn't try and get

17 you, for example, to say that this person, Marc Hobson,

18 had done anything else?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In respect of Rory Robinson, the headless chicken bit,

21 those were your words?

22 A. Yes, they were, yes.

23 Q. And what did he say when you said, "Oh, well,

24 Rory Robinson was running around like a headless

25 chicken', was he happy enough with that?

131

1 A. I don't recall. He didn't seem to go on any more about

2 it.

3 Q. No, because you don't say in that statement that he was

4 hitting anybody with his fists or anything of that

5 nature?

6 A. No, it doesn't say that, no.

7 Q. Or that he was hitting a body on the ground?

8 A. No, it doesn't say that.

9 Q. Or that he was fighting. He was certainly running round

10 like a headless chicken?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Stacey Bridgett, perhaps if we continue on down -- it is

13 over the page, the top half again, please, you see about

14 eight lines down:

15 "I saw Stacey Bridgett trading punches with one

16 person."

17 Whose words were they?

18 A. Those were my words.

19 Q. And the police officer, he was happy that that is how it

20 would be left with Stacey Bridgett?

21 A. He seemed happy with that, yes.

22 Q. Yes. He didn't try and get you to say that Bridgett,

23 for example, was attacking somebody or kicking a body on

24 the ground?

25 A. No, not that I can remember, no.

132

1 Q. And further on down that:

2 "I saw a boy lying on the street at the mouth of

3 Thomas Street. He was lying on his chest and he wasn't

4 moving."

5 Were those your words or were they the police

6 officer's words?

7 A. Those were my words.

8 Q. Those were your words. Your words were:

9 "I saw a boy lying on the street at the mouth of

10 Thomas Street."

11 Yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why did you say that the boy was lying on the street at

14 the mouth of Thomas Street?

15 A. Because when I first went into the interview room for

16 the second time that I went down, when the pressure was

17 being put on me, this was something that he asked

18 because he felt that I was further down towards what had

19 actually happened and --

20 Q. He felt that you were further down towards what you told

21 him on 11 May?

22 A. Yes, he virtually said that he knew that I wasn't

23 telling the truth and that I was much closer than what

24 I actually was, and that I was with holding information.

25 Q. You were with holding information. Why did you say the

133

1 body -- sorry, you saw the boy lying on the street at

2 the mouth of Thomas Street? Why did you say at the

3 mouth of Thomas Street?

4 A. Again, that was something that he would have brought up

5 to me when he was putting pressure on me.

6 Q. So he told you that the body was lying at the mouth of

7 Thomas Street?

8 A. Well, what he had said was I believe that you were

9 closer to this and I think you seen more than what you

10 are letting on. I think you had seen Stacey Bridgett

11 fighting and I think you had seen someone lying on the

12 ground.

13 Q. And he actually said to you, "I think you saw somebody

14 lying on the ground at the mouth of Thomas Street"?

15 A. He said you must have seen something because I believe

16 that you were further closer to the fracas.

17 Q. Did he use the words "at the mouth of Thomas Street"?

18 A. I don't recall.

19 Q. You have just told us those were your words. Isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Isn't the reason why those words are in the second

23 statement, Mr Wright, because you saw the boy lying on

24 the ground at the mouth of Thomas Street?

25 A. No, that is not true.

134

1 Q. But in any event, he didn't threaten you or intimidate

2 you or get you to say that any of these people kicked,

3 or kicked at, this body at the mouth of Thomas Street?

4 A. No.

5 Q. "Marc came back out of the crowd again."

6 Were those your words or his?

7 A. My words.

8 Q. Why did you say that?

9 A. It is just something that I had made up.

10 Q. Just something that you had made up. Well, could you

11 not have said, "I didn't see Marc again"?

12 A. Possibly.

13 Q. Well, you told him that you hadn't seen Allister again;

14 isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. Of course Allister's name doesn't even feature in

17 this second statement, does it?

18 A. I don't think so, no.

19 Q. No. Is there any particular reason why Allister's name

20 doesn't feature in this second statement?

21 A. I didn't see Allister.

22 Q. No, you didn't see Allister again?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Of course, what the other explanation is that you did

25 see Rory Robinson running round like a headless chicken,

135

1 you did see Stacey Bridgett trading punches with another

2 person?

3 A. No, that is not true.

4 Q. And you did see Marc Hobson going into the crowd?

5 A. No, it is not true.

6 Q. And the reason why there is no reference to

7 Allister Hanvey in this second statement is because you

8 didn't see him again?

9 A. I didn't see him again, and I had told the police that

10 in my first statement.

11 Q. Now, when you were being asked by Mr Underwood at the

12 start of your evidence, this police officer told you

13 that you were not telling the truth and you withheld

14 information and had more information; yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was making the suggestion that he knew what had

17 happened and that Allister and Marc were at the scene.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But Allister's name doesn't feature in that?

20 A. Well, he had said that to me.

21 Q. Yes. Did he also then say Fonzy, "You better put

22 something in about Fonzy"?

23 A. No, I don't know anybody called Fonzy.

24 Q. Did he ask you to put anything in the statement about

25 Dean Forbes?

136

1 A. No, his name wasn't mentioned.

2 Q. No, his name wasn't mentioned. He didn't ask you to put

3 in your statement that you knew Stacey Bridgett had

4 a bust nose?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The last couple of lines of that second statement

7 perhaps -- this is page [09142] -- the bottom portion,

8 please:

9 "I made this statement because not telling the full

10 facts the first time had been praying on my conscience."

11 A. Yes, I can see that, yes.

12 Q. Were those your words or his words?

13 A. They were DC Honeyford's words.

14 Q. DC Honeyford's words. So he said you are going to put these

15 words in your statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Isn't the truth of the matter, Mr Wright, that those

18 were your words, that this had been praying on your

19 conscience, the kicking to death of a Catholic, and your

20 mate Marc Hobson was involved in it?

21 A. That is not true. If it had been praying on my

22 conscience, I would have went down the police station

23 voluntarily, but they came to see me.

24 Q. Can we take it that you were absolutely appalled by the

25 conduct of this police officer on the night of this

137

1 second statement?

2 A. I was shocked, yes.

3 Q. You were appalled?

4 A. Angry.

5 Q. Angry, yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Angry that you had just signed a witness statement

8 implicating a friend of yours, Marc Hobson, another

9 friend of yours, Stacey Bridgett, and Rory Robinson as

10 being in the crowd and involved in the fracas in some

11 shape or form?

12 A. Yes, I was upset, yes.

13 Q. And that statement wasn't true, according to you?

14 A. No, it's not true.

15 Q. And you've been threatened and intimidated and words put

16 into your mouth by this police officer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your father knew you had gone to the police station;

19 isn't that correct?

20 A. No, my father didn't go with me.

21 Q. Did you tell him you had been to the place for this

22 second statement?

23 A. He knew I was going down.

24 Q. Did you speak to him when you got home? Did you see him

25 when you got home?

138

1 A. He would have been at home.

2 Q. Did you tell him what had happened down in the police

3 station?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why not?

6 A. I was ashamed of what I had done, I was embarrassed. I

7 didn't want him to know what I had done.

8 Q. You were ashamed and embarrassed by what you had done?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that because you had squealed on your friends?

11 A. I failed my friends, yes.

12 Q. Were you having second thoughts already about what you

13 had told the police in your second statement?

14 A. I don't understand what you mean.

15 Q. You were ashamed and embarrassed by what you said in

16 your second statement; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that because you had implicated your friends in the

19 fracas?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It was nothing to do with the police intimidating or

22 bullying you?

23 A. It all happened, you know.

24 Q. Why did you not tell your father, you are never going to

25 believe what just happened to me down at the police

139

1 station. This policeman came in and threatened to

2 humiliate me, my girlfriend, charge me with murder and I

3 wouldn't be able to go on holiday on Saturday. Why did

4 you not tell your father that when you got home?

5 A. I just bottled it up. I just kept my head in the sand

6 and I just didn't want anybody to know about it.

7 Q. Isn't that just nonsense, Mr Wright?

8 A. That is the truth.

9 Q. Why did you not go and speak to your minister, the

10 gentleman your father worked for?

11 A. And tell him what?

12 Q. And tell him what the police officer had done to you and

13 this terrible statement that you had just signed

14 implicating friends of yours?

15 A. I didn't know him that well to invite him round to my

16 house to tell him something like this.

17 Q. You knew where he worked, didn't you, Mr Wright?

18 A. I knew that my father worked for him, yes.

19 Q. Why didn't you go round and see him and tell him?

20 A. It wasn't something that came into my mind.

21 Q. Why did you not go and see a solicitor, tell him?

22 A. Again, I just put my head in the sand and -- just hoping

23 that everything would blow over. I didn't want any more

24 involvement in the case, in the matter.

25 Q. No, isn't the truth of the matter, Mr Wright, that you

140

1 didn't want it to get out, the word to get out on the

2 street, that you had made a statement implicating

3 Hobson, Bridgett and Robinson?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Because you knew that if word did get out about that, it

6 could cause you difficulties; isn't that right?

7 A. Why?

8 Q. Would that cause you fear?

9 A. Of?

10 Q. Retaliation?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Intimidation. In any event you didn't go to see

13 a solicitor?

14 A. If I was afraid, why did I name them in the first place?

15 Q. Conscience, Mr Wright, over the death of Robert Hamill

16 that your friends were involved in?

17 A. It is not true.

18 Q. Did you go and tell Bridgett, Hobson or any of that

19 crowd what you had done?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you not go and say, listen, something is terrible

22 here, I have made a false statement implicating you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you go and tell the solicitor?

25 A. I told no one.

141

1 Q. You told no one. But yet, according to you, Hobson, who

2 was in custody at this stage, he had arrived at the

3 scene with you, remained at the scene with you, left the

4 scene with you and was not involved in any fighting; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were a vital witness for Mr Hobson at his trial,

8 weren't you?

9 A. I don't know anything about that.

10 Q. Did you ever request go to Mr Hobson's solicitor and

11 say, listen, there is an awful travesty going on here, I

12 was with Mr Hobson, we arrived at the church together,

13 we were in each other's company together and we left at

14 the same time and he was not involved in the murder of

15 Robert Hamill or any fighting? Did you ever go and see

16 his solicitor or have that information conveyed to his

17 solicitor?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. Again, I didn't want anyone else to know about

21 anything -- about --

22 Q. If your evidence is correct, Mr Wright, Mr Hobson could

23 definitely not under any circumstances have been

24 involved in either the death of Mr Hamill or this

25 fighting that was going on down the street.

142

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he was a friend of yours?

3 A. Marc was, yes.

4 Q. But you weren't going to go and help him in any shape or

5 form?

6 A. Again, I was totally embarrassed with what I had done.

7 Q. Totally embarrassed with what you had done.

8 A. Yes, that I had lied to the police.

9 Q. That you had lied to the police or that you had further

10 put him in it, to use that expression?

11 A. No, I wasn't.

12 Q. You did speak to your brother; isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you give evidence at the trial of Marc Hobson for

15 murder?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You never contacted his solicitor?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Right. You told your brother about this police officer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did he tell you to do?

22 A. I think I had already withdrawn my statement at this

23 point.

24 Q. Oh, you had already withdrawn it at this point?

25 A. Yes.

143

1 Q. Right. So until you withdrew your statement

2 in March 1998, you hadn't told anybody?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't make any complaint to the police about the

5 conduct of this police officer?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You had attempted to contact one person. Isn't that

8 correct? About your statement?

9 A. Who do you mean?

10 Q. The very policeman who took the second statement --

11 A. Yes, I had phoned the police station, yes.

12 Q. This man who had threatened you about your girlfriend,

13 your father, charging you with murder, you tried to

14 contact him, according to you, on numerous occasions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you serious about that?

17 A. Yes, I know it is the truth, yes.

18 Q. The one person who bullied you and intimidated you into

19 making this statement, you were making numerous calls to

20 try and contact him to retract this statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You didn't go near any other policemen?

23 A. There was no one else that I knew. He was the one that

24 had took my statement.

25 Q. You never discussed this with Marc Hobson either; isn't

144

1 that correct?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Did you have any contact with Marc Hobson whilst he was

4 on remand?

5 A. Yes, I went down to the prison to visit Marc, yes.

6 Q. How often would you have gone down to see Marc?

7 A. I was down a few times. I couldn't tell you exactly how

8 many times.

9 Q. Try your best, Mr Wright. Mr Hobson was in custody

10 approximately six or seven months. Doing your best, can

11 you give us a rough indication of how many times you

12 went down to see him in prison?

13 A. Seven, eight, nine, I don't know.

14 Q. On quite a regular basis?

15 A. Regular enough, yes.

16 Q. Did you ever discuss the events of the night with him

17 whilst you were down on these visits?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Never. Did you visit Stacey Bridgett?

20 A. Stacey would have been there, but I can't remember if

21 I went specifically to see Stacey.

22 Q. Well, would you have spoken to Stacey there, if I might

23 put it that way, on a visit?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you have spoken to any of the other six who were

145

1 on remand for this murder?

2 A. Allister I think I spoke to.

3 Q. Allister you spoke to?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Rory Robinson?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But in any event, neither Hobson nor Bridgett you

8 discussed with them the events of this night?

9 A. Never, never.

10 Q. Did you not even say to Hobson when you were on these

11 visits, "This is terrible, sure. You were with me all

12 that relevant time and you can't possibly be guilty of

13 this offence." Did you not even say something like

14 that?

15 A. No.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Did he ever say to you, "Well, you know, I

17 didn't do it because you were with me all the time"?

18 A. No.

19 MR O'HARE: This has already been touched on, but on

20 16 October 1997 you went to see Mr Gordon Kerr, the

21 representative of the then Director of Public

22 Prosecutions, Mr Davidson, and two other police

23 officers; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How did you get down to this consultation?

146

1 A. I was brought down by the police officers.

2 Q. Which police officers?

3 A. DS Bradley, I believe was there.

4 Q. DS Bradley. Did you ever at any stage try to suggest that the

5 police officer who took this second statement drove you

6 to this consultation?

7 A. DC Honeyford, do you mean?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Again, I can't remember if he was there or not, but it

10 is possible he could have been.

11 Q. Well, Mr Wright, we are talking about a policeman who

12 was threatening you and humiliating your girlfriend,

13 your father and you not getting away on your holiday.

14 Was he in the car that brought you to this consultation?

15 A. I know there was two people in the car and I know DS Bradley

16 was there and I'm almost certain DC Honeyford was there.

17 Q. You are almost certain.

18 A. Again, like I said earlier, this is something that

19 I have very little recollection about, this meeting with

20 the DPP.

21 Q. How many times had you been to meetings with the DPP

22 prior to this occasion?

23 A. None.

24 Q. How many times have you been to meetings with the DPP

25 after this occasion?

147

1 A. Once.

2 Q. Once. And when was that?

3 A. If I could see my statement, it says -- I can't remember

4 off --

5 Q. Which statement is it you would like to see?

6 A. The third statement.

7 Q. The third statement. That was the statement that you

8 retracted?

9 A. Yes, that was the only time after that I ever spoke to

10 the DPP.

11 Q. Where did you make that retraction statement?

12 A. In Craigavon courthouse.

13 Q. Where did you meet Mr Kerr and Mr Davidson and the other

14 two senior police officers?

15 A. It was -- I was told to come to Craigavon courthouse

16 where there would be a meeting in the courthouse

17 somewhere. All I remember is it was upstairs. I had to

18 travel upstairs to a meeting room.

19 Q. It was in Craigavon that you consulted with Mr Kerr and

20 Mr Davidson?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You didn't make any mention to Mr Kerr and Mr Davidson

23 about the behaviour, if I can use that, of the detective

24 constable when he was taking that second statement?

25 A. I told him that I made the statement under duress and

148

1 that it wasn't the true full facts of what had happened.

2 Q. Yes. This is Mr Kerr and Mr Davidson from the DPP.

3 Now, this first meeting that you think the detective who

4 took your second statement -- this is the meeting that

5 the detective who took your second statement you think

6 drove to this meeting -- this is the meeting I'm asking

7 you about.

8 A. At the first meeting?

9 Q. The first meeting of October 1997?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So that I get this clear in my own mind, you told Mr A,

12 the representative of the then DPP, about this policeman

13 intimidating you and effectively bullying you to into

14 making this statement, and it isn't true?

15 A. I didn't say anything to him at the second statement.

16 I only told him when I retracted my statement.

17 Q. Perhaps we are at cross purposes in fairness to you,

18 Mr Wright. The first time you met Mr Kerr and

19 Mr Davidson in October 1997 -- not March 1998 when you

20 retracted your statement, but October 1997?

21 A. The first time, yes.

22 Q. Did you tell Mr Kerr, Mr Davidson and these other two

23 police officers about the conduct effectively of this

24 police officer who took your second lying statement, if

25 I may use that expression -- did you tell them how it

149

1 came about that you made this statement?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why not?

4 A. Because I lied to the police and I knew it was wrong and

5 I was very, very ashamed. And I knew it was -- it was

6 an offence to lie to the police.

7 Q. It was an offence to lie to the police. Do you remember

8 Mr Kerr? He was the QC that you were talking to. Do

9 you remember him?

10 A. As I said earlier, I have very, very little recollection

11 of actually being down there.

12 Q. Did you understand why you were going to this meeting?

13 A. Not really, no.

14 Q. Yes. Well, do you remember Mr Kerr asking you about the

15 events of the night, of the early hours of the morning

16 of the 27th?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember him asking you specifically why you had

19 decided to make a second statement?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Perhaps page [17633] could be put up, and the

22 paragraph A at the bottom, if it could be highlighted,

23 please. This is part of an opinion that Mr Kerr QC, one

24 of the senior counsel for the prosecution of the then

25 DPP. He consulted with you and this is the note of his

150

1 consultation. Do you see where it starts (a)

2 Jonathan Wright?

3 A. Yes, I see that, yes.

4 Q. "I saw Mr Wright with Mr Davidson in attendance.

5 Mr Wright made two statements to the police. The first

6 dated 11 May 1997 ..."

7 That's correct, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. "... was a general statement of his movements and his

10 companions on the evening in question."

11 That is correct, as well: it was a general statement

12 about your movements?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "In it, he denies all knowledge of any information in

15 relation to the incident."

16 Isn't that correct, that you denied any knowledge of

17 the incident or any information? Sorry, do you see

18 that?

19 A. Yes, I do. I just don't understand what it says.

20 Q. What he is saying in that first statement, ie the

21 statement of 11 May:

22 "He denies any knowledge of any information in

23 relation to the incident."

24 In fact what he effectively said in there is that

25 you didn't see who was involved or what caused it or who

151

1 the participants were, matters that of nature?

2 A. Well, that is the truth, yes.

3 Q. "He then made a second statement on 15 May 1997."

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "I specifically asked him why he had decided to make

7 a second statement."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This is you now:

11 "He stated that he was distressed by the death and

12 that he decided it was important to tell the truth."

13 A. I don't remember saying that.

14 Q. Well, you don't remember saying that. Can you give us

15 any explanation as to why Mr Kerr would have recorded

16 that if you hadn't have said that to him?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. Isn't the reason why he recorded it because those were

19 your words?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And you had been trying subsequent to this to get out of

22 that second statement which you know is true?

23 A. The second statement is false, I told you that.

24 Q. Why did you tell Mr Kerr that, that you were distressed

25 by the death and decided it was important to tell the

152

1 truth?

2 A. I don't remember saying that.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you expect to be asked at this meeting

4 why you had made the second statement?

5 A. Yes, I was expecting to be asked, yes.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: What made you think you would be asked why

7 you made the second statement?

8 A. I can't honestly say. I just felt it would have been

9 something -- it would be talked about.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Not simply asked about the statement, but why

11 you made it. Do you follow the difference?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: And you thought you would be asked why you

14 made it, did you?

15 A. Yes, because of what had happened in Portadown police

16 station at the second interview.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

18 MR O'HARE: How long after you made the second statement was

19 it that you first contacted the officer who took it to

20 try and get this statement retracted?

21 A. I went on holiday on Saturday morning so it was probably

22 within a few weeks after that.

23 Q. So that, roughly, would have been some time at the end

24 of May, beginning of June 1997?

25 A. June, yes, roughly, yes.

153

1 Q. Do you remember when Marc Hobson's committal hearing

2 was?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know a committal hearing is when he is being sent

5 for trial in the Crown Court?

6 A. I have no idea.

7 Q. Apparently, it was some time around April 1998. Does

8 that ring a bell with you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. That he was up in court and he was sent to the Crown

11 Court?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is it any coincidence that your retraction statement was

14 the month before in March 1998?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Mr Underwood has already read out Mr Davidson's note of

17 that consultation. I don't propose to. Can I ask you:

18 as well as visiting Mr Hobson in prison, did you get

19 phone calls from him?

20 A. Yes, I think Marc would have called looking to know if I

21 could go down to see him that week.

22 Q. Would this have been on a regular basis?

23 A. I couldn't say for sure. He would have telephoned, yes.

24 Q. But I mean, during those telephone conversations, I take

25 it he said, "Are you going to come down next Saturday?"

154

1 Or something like that?

2 A. Marc would have needed to know how many people were

3 coming down.

4 Q. Precisely to book them in?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He would just say are you coming down next Saturday

7 because so and so wants to come, and to organise it for

8 that if you were?

9 A. Yes, exactly, yes.

10 Q. I have to say to you, Mr Wright, the content of that

11 second statement came about because it was on your

12 conscience?

13 A. That is wrong.

14 Q. And you were stressed, as Mr Kerr has noted, by the

15 death of Hamill?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And you wanted to tell the truth?

18 A. It is not true.

19 Q. And this is just now pure nonsense about this detective

20 effectively bullying you?

21 A. That is not true.

22 Q. It took you until March 1998 to have this statement

23 retracted?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You are 18 years old at the time?

155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were working?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Living with your father?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the only person that you approached prior to this

7 statement being retracted was this big bad policeman who

8 had effectively intimidated you into making that

9 statement?

10 A. I wanted to speak to him so I could get the statement

11 retracted.

12 Q. Did it ever occur to you that if you went back to him he

13 would bully you into making a third statement?

14 A. I don't think it crossed my mind at that point.

15 Q. He had already done it once, according to you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It didn't cross your mind?

18 A. Not that I can remember.

19 Q. You would have been quite happy to enter the police

20 station and see him again?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Who else lived at home?

23 A. Just me and my father.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: If you were in a jam and you felt guilty, who

25 is the person closest to you to whom you might speak?

156

1 A. I wasn't in this position before, but if I wanted to

2 speak to someone, it would maybe have been my brother or

3 my sister.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: But you didn't?

5 A. No.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

7 MR McGRORY: I'm in your hands, sir, it is five past five.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: How long will you be?

9 MR McGRORY: It is hard to say, but not too long. I have

10 a few points.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: There is another matter we have to deal with

12 and it is better that we deal with that today, so we

13 will postpone your questioning until tomorrow. We will

14 adjourn briefly so that the IT can be realigned.

15 Will you be back tomorrow at half past 10?

16 A. I do not have tomorrow off work. I thought I would be

17 finished today.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sure somebody from the Inquiry will speak

19 to those at work to try to make arrangements for you.

20 But you have to be here tomorrow and you and they will

21 have to realise that we have first call on my time.

22 A. I can call the supervisor tomorrow and say that I need

23 the morning off.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Just the morning, but if you would like

25 someone from the Inquiry to ring as well that will be

157

1 done.

2 A. I'm sure I can do it myself.

3 (5.05 pm)

4 (Short adjournment)

5 (5.15 pm)

6 (In camera)

7 (6.18 pm)

8 (The Inquiry adjourned until the following day at 10.30 am)

158

1 I N D E X

2
MR RORY ROBINSON (sworn) ......................... 2
3
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 2
4
Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 31
5
Questions by MR O'HARE ....................... 37
6
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 44
7
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 73
8
MR JONATHAN WRIGHT (affirmed) .................... 83
9
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 83
10
Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 100
11
Questions by MR O'HARE ....................... 103
12

159

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 11th March 2009, day 26