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Hearing: 10th March 2009, day 25

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Tuesday, 10 March 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 25

1 Tuesday, 10 March 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 (Proceedings delayed)

4 (11.30 am)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I should like to begin the day's proceedings

6 by expressing on behalf of all the panel our great

7 distress and sorrow at the murder yesterday of a police

8 officer in Craigavon. We offer to his family our

9 condolences and our prayers.

10 Mr Adair, you have an application to make.

11 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir, I have an application --

12 THE CHAIRMAN: But just before you begin, everyone, I think,

13 knows the nature of your application.

14 MR ADAIR: I think so, sir.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: We usually hear these applications in closed

16 session, but unless anyone persuades me to the contrary,

17 we shall hear this application, so far as we can take it

18 today, in open session but reserve for a later decision

19 whether any further consideration will be in closed or

20 open session.

21 I see no one seeks to protest. Now, the next thing

22 is this: ordinarily these applications are heard and

23 dealt with in the first instance by me. And then,

24 whoever makes the application, if dissatisfied by the

25 result, is entitled either to make further

1 submission to me or to ask for a hearing by the full

2 panel, which will be an open hearing. If you wish, I am

3 prepared to omit the first stage so that you can make

4 your application to the full panel.

5 Would you like to tell me which you prefer of

6 those two?

7 MR ADAIR: Sir, whichever you think is appropriate. I have

8 no view one way or the other.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think in those circumstances we shall hear

10 it as a full panel. Very well then.

11 Application by MR ADAIR

12 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir, I think the Panel will obviously have

13 heard the news from, first of all, last week and the

14 events over the weekend and the Panel will be aware that

15 the Chief Constable for the PSNI has publicly stated

16 that the risk level is severe, and regrettably his words

17 have been borne out by the events of the weekend, when,

18 as you know, two soldiers were killed in Antrim and then

19 last night a policeman was murdered in Craigavon.

20 Now, the Panel will also be aware that, of course,

21 there were applications made on behalf of the officers

22 whom I represent in the past -- although I wasn't

23 directly involved, sir, in those applications, my

24 learned junior was involved in those. Apart from

25 essentially medical grounds, the applications were

1 refused because PSNI individual risk assessment threats

2 were carried out. And on the basis of those, together

3 with other evidence, it was not regarded as appropriate

4 that those witnesses should be granted anonymity or

5 screening.

6 The situation, sir, has now changed, in that we know

7 from the Chief Constable that in general the risk

8 assessment level is severe and, of course, in particular

9 we know that a police officer has now been murdered last

10 night. Now, objectively that means that I cannot say at

11 this point in time whether the risk assessment,

12 individual risk assessment level is the same now as of

13 today as it was at the time you made your decision, sir.

14 And neither, if I might say so with respect, can either

15 the Panel or anybody else until we receive those risk

16 assessment reports.

17 So, my application, sir, is that -- well, it seems

18 to me that there are potentially two ways of moving

19 forward. Can I say this first of all, having spoken to

20 Mr Underwood and others: all of us are anxious, of

21 course, that the Inquiry, if possible, proceeds and

22 that, I take it, sir, will go as said. And I think we

23 are all of the same mind. Nevertheless, I have on

24 behalf of the officers for whom I appear,

25 a responsibility on their behalf to ensure that their

1 safety is preserved and if there is a risk to their

2 lives, that all steps are taken to ensure that that risk

3 is minimised or neutralised entirely.

4 Consequently, my application is that all police

5 officers for whom I appear certainly, should be ciphered

6 and granted screening.

7 Now, if I might pause there and tangentially go on

8 to the screening, it may be that we will have to discuss

9 that at a later stage in relation to the screening, but

10 for the moment I want to make it clear that is my

11 application.

12 If I may just go back to what I was saying are the

13 two possible courses of action. The first course of

14 action would be to adjourn and order individual threat

15 assessment reports by the PSNI. I understand that that

16 takes potentially six to eight weeks. You, sir, might

17 know from previous experience --

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I think maybe more if there are --

19 MR ADAIR: So many, yes. So one is talking about a long

20 time, which obviously one has got to balance in the

21 picture.

22 Having talked to Mr Underwood, the possible

23 alternative would be, because none of us can say with

24 any certainty at all whether there is an individual risk

25 to any particular officer, the possibility might be,

1 sir, that pro tem all officers for whom I appear are

2 ciphered and that they should not be referred to by

3 name, by any witness who gives evidence in the meantime

4 and, therefore, the Inquiry can proceed on that basis.

5 If it transpires then, obviously, that ultimately

6 when the applications are individually heard, that it

7 would not be appropriate to grant them anonymity, the

8 record can be amended and their names reinserted. If,

9 on the other hand, it transpires that there is a real

10 risk to their lives, then they should remain ciphered.

11 So that is a second possible course of action which

12 we have talked about, sir, in the hour we have had since

13 being here today. That seems reasonable to me, if

14 I might say, in the circumstances because it permits of

15 the assessments being carried out and it also permits of

16 the Inquiry continuing. So that seems to me to be

17 a possible forward way ahead.

18 There is one other matter I want to mention and that

19 is: none of us can undo whatever press coverage or

20 Internet coverage that there has already been which has

21 already disclosed the names of a number of police

22 officers. But my second application would be that the

23 Internet transcripts, once the ciphers have been decided

24 for each individual officers, should be amended and

25 those names ciphered on the Internet transcripts. I

1 understand it is possible, having talked to some of the

2 Inquiry team, that that can be done.

3 Now, I am the first to say, sir, that obviously that

4 will have been read by a number of people, but it will

5 at least minimise any future publication of their names

6 if it turns out that there is a real risk to their

7 lives. So I am applying that that should be done

8 immediately or as soon as physically and technically

9 possible on the part of the Inquiry.

10 So, as I say, sir, if it might come back then to the

11 issue of screening because, as I indicated, my

12 application was twofold, both anonymity and screening.

13 The reason that we are asking you not to make any

14 decision at the moment on screening is because there are

15 a number of officers listed to come, I think, next

16 week -- I can't remember the precise days, but some day

17 next week. So that issue may well have to be discussed

18 between Mr Underwood, in the first instance, and myself

19 and then with you, sir, as to what steps we take,

20 because once that is done, it is done, in the sense --

21 unlike the transcript, where the names can be inserted

22 or remain ciphered.

23 So we may have to have further discussions about

24 that. Maybe they can be put off for some time and we

25 can deal with other witnesses, but I think, hopefully,

1 we will be able to come to some resolution of that in

2 due course and offer some suggestions to the Panel about

3 that, sir.

4 So in essence, I'll not prolong the application

5 because I think you have the core of it.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Now, the application is of

7 a temporary nature and Mr Adair makes suggestions for

8 how we can continue taking measures on a temporary basis

9 which may or may not become a permanent basis. Having

10 said that and shown what is the scope of the

11 consideration today, I invite anyone who wishes to say

12 something to say it now.

13 MR FERGUSON: Mr Chairman, obviously, like Mr Adair, we

14 share a responsibility so far as a tranche of the

15 witnesses are concerned, and I have listened carefully

16 to his suggestions. I have listened to the various

17 theories which have been mooted on behalf of those

18 conducting the Inquiry. It seems to me that in the

19 absence of any further, more definitive knowledge, this

20 is really the only way forward at present for us and,

21 therefore, I would support the application.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

23 MR MCGRORY: If it is of assistance, perhaps, I should

24 contribute on behalf of the family.

25 Sir, and members of the panel, this has come

1 obviously as a bolt out of the blue to the family and

2 a little time would be required for the family to take

3 a considered view. But if it is of assistance, what I

4 can say is that the family is prepared to accept

5 a temporary anonymity situation for the remainder --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That is all that is being sought at this

7 stage.

8 MR McGRORY: Indeed, and I would like to say at this stage

9 in order to perhaps assist, then of course it would be

10 entirely without prejudice to any position the family

11 might take at a later stage.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much.

13 Yes, Ms Dinsmore?

14 MS DINSMORE: Mr Chairman, not only do I endorse much of

15 what my friend Mr Adair has said, I would have to

16 suggest, respectfully, sir, however, that I would

17 have -- first of all, I need to take instructions on

18 this point, particularly from my client. I haven't had

19 an opportunity to do that.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Is he here today?

21 MS DINSMORE: No, he has very serious health problems of

22 which the Panel is aware and the Inquiry have been

23 appraised with regular medical evidence to that effect.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Dinsmore, can I just stress this: today is

25 not an occasion for making a final ruling.

1 MS DINSMORE: I appreciate that.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: It is suggested by Mr Adair -- and he has

3 some support from others about this -- that there should

4 be a temporary measure. Whether it becomes a permanent

5 measure will depend upon what more is learned in the

6 future. Do you oppose that suggestion?

7 MS DINSMORE: Not insofar as it goes, but I would seek an

8 add-on for my particular client, who is in quite

9 idiosyncratic circumstances by way of the service in the

10 Royal Ulster Constabulary.

11 The thing about it is that evidence is going to be

12 given this week which, even if a witness was screened

13 and even if a witness name was ciphered, the

14 circumstances that are going to be brought out and are

15 apparent, I would respectfully suggest serious

16 consideration would have to be given that my client

17 would be readily identifiable from that.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: What are you suggesting is the way of dealing

19 with that?

20 MS DINSMORE: Well, I too am most anxious that the Inquiry

21 continues to proceed. What I would say: (a) we need

22 a little time -- but I think we are all ad idem about

23 what we mean by a little time -- to have a clearer view

24 about what exactly is the best way forward. But in

25 addition to the measures suggested, as an add-on, I

1 would respectfully suggest that witnesses who impinge

2 upon the circumstances that are peculiar to my client,

3 for example, Mr Hanvey, who is listed for later this

4 week, that it is not appropriate that his evidence is

5 given until we are in a position of a risk assessment in

6 relation to my client. Because in Northern Ireland, in

7 a community as small as Portadown is, it is quite clear

8 that no matter how much it is ciphered or redacted, when

9 Mr Hanvey's evidence is explored, it is going to be

10 readily identifiable within Portadown who the

11 individual -- namely, my client -- is involved.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let us assume that is so for the purpose of

13 argument. What is the course then you would ask the

14 Inquiry to take in relation to Mr Hanvey?

15 MS DINSMORE: Until we have the risk assessment, I would

16 respectfully suggest those aspects of the Inquiry

17 evidence that would give rise to circumstances of the

18 potential for my client to be recognised from the tenor

19 of the evidence, that those witnesses do not give

20 evidence until a later stage.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but I think, forgive me, you are not

22 really grasping or grappling with my question. Suppose

23 the conclusion is that your client will be readily

24 identified by details which Mr Hanvey gives.

25 MS DINSMORE: Yes.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the course you are suggesting that

2 then should be taken, because it is one thing to say

3 that for the moment Mr Hanvey shouldn't be called, but

4 that doesn't deal with this problem when the time does

5 come. What are you suggesting?

6 MS DINSMORE: I'm suggesting that no decision be made on

7 that until we know what the position is in relation to

8 a risk assessment. If one is balancing the very

9 proper and right in the public interest of exploring all

10 issues at this inquiry, but one has to also balance it

11 in relation to the context of the right to life.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, Ms Dinsmore, I'm asking you to

13 assume that there will be identification of your client

14 by virtue of what Hanvey is saying. Assume that, will

15 you?

16 MS DINSMORE: Yes.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: And assume that that would be a matter of

18 risk to him. What then are you saying the Inquiry

19 should do about Mr Hanvey's evidence?

20 MS DINSMORE: I respectfully suggest to you, Mr Chairman,

21 that you reserve your thinking on that until we all

22 understand what we are balancing in this exercise, what

23 is the extent of the risk that we are talking about.

24 I mean, if we are --

25 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the range of matters we should be

1 considering in relation to Mr Hanvey?

2 MS DINSMORE: Well, I am loath on the public record because

3 it defeats the purpose if I start to outline to the

4 Inquiry those matters which would render --

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not asking for that. I hope I have made

6 it clear. On the assumption that he would be identified

7 and on the assumption that that would put him at risk,

8 how then do you say, if that were to be the case, we

9 should approach the evidence of Mr Hanvey?

10 MS DINSMORE: That will be a matter for your good selves,

11 once you are aware of the relevant matters to take into

12 account, which will include a full knowledge in relation

13 to what the level of risk to Mr C is.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well, thank you.

15 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Does anyone else wish to say something?

17 MR O'CONNOR: Mr Chairman, sir, I appear for another officer

18 whose name you will know and I adopt the submissions and

19 application of Mr Adair on his behalf.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mr McComb?

21 MR McCOMB: Again, I would adopt the submissions made by

22 Mr Adair in relation to a number of my clients, but I

23 haven't taken formal instructions on the matter. I have

24 some concerns about a number of them. I wish to take

25 formal instructions about that, sir, and perhaps just at

1 this stage I wish to, perhaps, reserve our position.

2 I have really nothing further to add to the second route

3 which I think Mr Adair was suggesting, should it commend

4 itself to the Panel.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: The temporary, which may or may not in the

6 end be temporary, redactions?

7 MR McCOMB: I would have thought so, sir.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: You are content with that, are you, at this

9 stage?

10 MR McCOMB: Subject perhaps to any further matter which

11 might arise.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course. Mr Underwood?

13 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I just deal with the practical

14 consequences for a moment so I can be clear about what

15 is being proposed here? If what seems to be the

16 unanimity surrounding Mr Adair's proposal meets with

17 approval and there is ciphering at this stage and there

18 is a putting off for at least a few days of the question

19 of whether there is screening of police officers, the

20 practical consequence of the ciphering, as I understand

21 it, will be that it would take us perhaps an hour or so

22 to come up with a list of ciphers for officers. We

23 would not be able to redact the documents which are

24 electronically available to us all so as to take account

25 of those ciphers. The only mechanism by which those

1 could be, as it were, kept to the lawyers and to the

2 witnesses, is to close off the public screens when any

3 text is shown.

4 There is the separate matter of whether you would

5 order the redaction, as it were, retrospectively of the

6 website. As Mr Adair fairly pointed out, of course,

7 what's out is out, but what's on the website should

8 consistently with the ciphering perhaps be revised as

9 well. And that would require an order, as it seems to

10 me, under section 19(1)(b) of the Inquiries Act.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I'm wondering about that because

12 section 19 allows an order to be made prohibiting

13 disclosure or publication. That doesn't seem to cover

14 the situation where there has already been disclosure or

15 publication.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: No, it could no doubt cover further

17 publication.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, that I entirely agree with, but one

19 can't say that because the website is in effect like

20 a book, and it can be read by anyone who chooses at any

21 time. The fact that someone today could read names

22 amounts to some further publication.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: No, all I'm proposing --

24 THE CHAIRMAN: I just wonder whether there is any power to

25 make an order in relation to the website.

1 MR UNDERWOOD: All I would apprehend that may be possible there

2 is that an order under this subsection would mean that

3 there would be no further publication, for example, by

4 the press of what is currently on the website. So if

5 I call officer Z next week and there is a reference on

6 the website that makes it clear who officer Z is and

7 that is now taken off but the press have a print of the

8 website as of last week, they could put two and two

9 together from the website.

10 Nothing, it seems to me, that you could do under

11 this section could stop the press putting two and two

12 together from materials available to them otherwise, but

13 in respect of materials available to them as a result of

14 what we have published, as it seems to me,

15 section 19(1)(b) could buy it.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that there is a certain

17 affinity with defamation proceedings. You can have

18 a publication and then you can have a further

19 publication.

20 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: And you are saying that although one can't

22 now redact the present state of the website, that

23 wouldn't prohibit any redaction of future additions to

24 the website, nor would it prevent the section being

25 invoked to prevent further repetition on what would be a

1 new publication of information which is already on the

2 website?

3 MR UNDERWOOD: That is correct, although it may well be, of

4 course, that the press might want to be heard on that

5 point, and I'm not suggesting that it is a course one

6 should simply plunge into regardless.

7 It may well be that you wish to make that order, if

8 you wish to make it at all, provisionally subject to

9 anything the press might want to raise.

10 The third consequence perhaps is that there will

11 undoubtedly be inadvertent use of people's names if we

12 give ciphers, and it may well be that -- if you would

13 like to consider making another order in respect of that

14 under section 19(1)(b) so as to prohibit the press from

15 publishing names given inadvertently. I should say

16 immediately that the press have been meticulous about

17 this. There has been inadvertent use of names already.

18 The press have been as helpful as it is possible to be

19 about not reporting that, and it may well be that it is

20 entirely unnecessary to make such an order. I simply

21 raise the point.

22 The next point I would like to make, if I may, on

23 Mr Adair's point is to express the gratitude of the

24 Inquiry to the family who have been considerate and

25 civilised in a very immediate response to what, as

1 Mr McGrory says, is a bolt out of the blue to them.

2 They didn't have to consent to this.

3 Finally, on Ms Dinsmore's application, that, as it

4 seems to me, is potentially an application that we hear

5 no more evidence, at least hear no more evidence of

6 a sort that may implicate her client.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: But she steadfastly refuses to be drawn on

8 what we should take, even making all the assumptions

9 that in effect she asks us to make.

10 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes. If one assumes that further evidence

11 will name her client and permit his identification

12 whatever the Inquiry does by way of screening and

13 anonymity, and assumes that a threat assessment that's

14 available in some weeks or months time shows that that

15 puts him at unacceptable risk, then that would stop the

16 Inquiry in its tracks.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Unless we were to say we would hear

18 Mr Hanvey's evidence in camera, which would be a grave

19 step to take.

20 MR UNDERWOOD: It would certainly stop it in its tracks as

21 a public inquiry, and I echo what you say, sir, with

22 respect, that she refused to be drawn that far and it

23 seems to me with respect that either one has to be

24 dealing with an application to that extent, that it is

25 an application to prevent evidence in public which deals

1 with her client until we have got the threat assessment,

2 or it has to be no more than that marker laid down.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I find some difficulty in saying we will let

4 the question of Mr Hanvey just hang in the air for some

5 indefinite period of time. But if we are pressed on

6 that or if we are pressed to say that his evidence

7 should be given in camera, at that stage it seems to me

8 we would have to look to see to what extent her client's

9 name is in the public domain already and what evidence

10 we have heard about that, and how any further evidence

11 from Mr Hanvey, for example, which I think we can

12 anticipate would not be condemnatory of her client,

13 would affect adversely his position beyond what his

14 position may be at this stage.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: Quite. If I may say so, I sympathise with

16 her position because of course the tragic events over

17 the last few days have made everybody consider what's

18 safe or isn't safe for those involved in the Inquiry.

19 But the difficulty is that we are about to call a number

20 of witnesses who explicitly or implicitly deal with her

21 client this week. And as of next week, when we start

22 calling the police officers, we will be dealing with

23 a very large number of people who give evidence in

24 relation to her client. It is not just Mr Hanvey.

25 And it is the course of the Inquiry from hereon in

1 to a very large degree that will concern her client and

2 I urge her to consider whether she needs to make an

3 application, perhaps in private rather than in the

4 public glare, which deals with the circumstances of her

5 client and whether or not this is to be advanced as an

6 application to stop the Inquiry hearing that evidence in

7 public. Because unless it is, then there is nothing in

8 it; if it is, then, with respect, it has to be dealt

9 with soon.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

11 MR UNDERWOOD: Those are my observations insofar as they are

12 helpful.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

14 Ms Dinsmore, do you wish to say anything more? You

15 see the predicament we face?

16 MS DINSMORE: Certainly, and we are as anxious as anyone

17 that everything proceeds. There are matters which are

18 probably best not heard in public.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I shall allow to you pursue your application

20 in that event in the closed session.

21 MS DINSMORE: But I would appreciate, however, that

22 I reserve doing that until I have final instructions.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: How long will it take you to get

24 instructions?

25 MS DINSMORE: I understand that there is a view taken that

1 you may not be sitting the rest of today, and if that

2 is --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not the view I have taken.

4 MS DINSMORE: Sorry, that is the view you have taken?

5 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that is not the view --

6 MS DINSMORE: Not the view. Then I drove to Portadown last

7 night and I will drive again tonight. I have no

8 difficulty in turning round my instructions for

9 tomorrow, unless my client is too ill to consult.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it seems to me whatever fears you

11 express, Hanvey must give evidence and he either gives

12 evidence in public or in camera.

13 MS DINSMORE: Yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: The latter is a drastic step.

15 MS DINSMORE: I appreciate that.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: And if we are to consider whether he gives

17 evidence in camera, we shall have to consider what he

18 may say in the witness box. And I don't think it would

19 take you by surprise if I suggested it is unlikely that

20 he will say anything to condemn your client.

21 MS DINSMORE: It is not so much what he would say, but what

22 would be put to him that may be more of an unknown

23 quantity.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, in that event we shall have to do

25 a form of balancing exercise. That will be a balancing

1 exercise between what is known already, what evidence we

2 have had already and the matters which might be put to

3 Mr Hanvey have already been pretty well canvassed, have

4 they not?

5 MS DINSMORE: I'm reserving my position on all of this --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I want your help, you know, please.

7 MS DINSMORE: I am endeavouring to give my help on it. My

8 huge dilemma is there is a vast unknown factor and that

9 is what is the level of risk to my particular client.

10 And until we know the extent of that, that is put in the

11 balance, when one is doing the balancing exercise,

12 I respectfully suggest I feel somewhat handicapped by

13 that.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We have to consider, do we not, whether

15 Hanvey giving evidence in public and matters being put

16 to him in public will add to any risk.

17 MS DINSMORE: Certainly, certainly, that is a relevant

18 factor.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Are we not in a position on the material we

20 have at present to ask whether his position would be

21 made worse?

22 MS DINSMORE: Certainly an audit can be done in relation to

23 the press, going right back to the time when there were

24 the criminal proceedings, when the Marc Hobson

25 Inquiry -- trial proceeded.

1 Going right back an audit can be done and no doubt

2 would be done, and I fully accept that that is a factor

3 which is in the balance. But I hate to repeat myself,

4 but I also see that it is a factor, it is not the

5 determining factor, I respectfully suggest, and it is

6 a matter for your good selves, the weight which you are

7 going to give to a particular factor, but a material

8 consideration has got to be the (a) risk and (b) health

9 and the context of the risk in the context of my

10 client's health, and those are also relevant factors, I

11 would respectfully suggest to you, that no doubt,

12 Mr Chairman, you will be putting in the balance.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Surely your client's health is a matter to

14 which consideration will have been given already.

15 MS DINSMORE: Certainly.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Because it is known what sort of challenges

17 he will face.

18 MS DINSMORE: Absolutely, but the position is at the

19 moment -- unfortunately, my instructing solicitor has

20 just briefly left, but my instructions at the moment

21 that the surgeon in Leicester who carried out a novel

22 and innovative serious heart procedure in relation to my

23 client, his position is at the moment, I understand from

24 my instructing solicitor, there is no question at the

25 moment that my client is fit. And Ms Kemish has been

1 fully appraised all along, as has Mr Underwood, in

2 relation to the enormous dilemma which we face apropos

3 that. And it is a dilemma which means that even

4 consultations are difficult because sometimes his health

5 is just not good enough to even consult, and that is

6 a dilemma that we face and it is not an irrelevant

7 factor when one is considering we do not know what the

8 risk towards this man is. Sorry, Mr Underwood.

9 MR UNDERWOOD: May I just suggest a practical solution to

10 this. My friend has very kindly said that she will make

11 efforts to get instructions for tomorrow, and perhaps I

12 can suggest that, because the witnesses slated for today

13 don't, as far as I know, mention her client, that we

14 deal with those witnesses, although I will recheck

15 before I call any of them and postpone the further

16 consideration of this perhaps in chambers until tomorrow

17 morning.

18 MS DINSMORE: I have no difficulty and am obliged to my

19 friend.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Then we will adopt that course,

21 and you would prefer any hearing tomorrow to be in

22 camera?

23 MS DINSMORE: Yes, if it pleases you, Mr Chairman,

24 certainly. I'm entirely in your hands.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: That will mean the public is excluded, but

1 that does not mean that other interested parties will

2 not be present. They are entitled to.

3 MS DINSMORE: I am very much obliged.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: As Mr Adair has made clear already, we are

5 not able to make a decision, a final decision on his

6 application and we have only today to consider what

7 temporary measures could be taken. A final decision

8 would require risk assessments but also require an

9 examination or re-examination of the security of the

10 building and a consideration of what steps can be taken

11 to remove or to reduce the risk to police officers

12 giving evidence.

13 As a temporary measure, so that we can continue, we

14 shall hear witnesses but any references to police

15 officers will be redacted and obviously it will be

16 necessary to give time for this to be done. Witnesses

17 who are likely to speak of this or that or the other

18 officer will be given, but not allowed to keep, a list

19 of the name with the cipher against it so that he is

20 able to look at that and, one hopes, use the cipher.

21 Where there is a statement on screen with a name in

22 that statement, whether in the paragraph shown or in

23 other paragraphs, the public and press monitors will be

24 switched off, and I say whether it is on the page shown

25 or not because, of course, there is always the danger

1 that we are asked to move on to another paragraph or

2 paragraphs where an offending name may appear.

3 Now, whether what is today a temporary measure

4 remains the final position will depend on the outcome of

5 today's application when it is possible for us to make

6 a final decision.

7 Applications for anonymity of course will not all

8 stand or fall together. Each application, whether for

9 anonymity or screening, will have to be considered on

10 its own merits both under Article 2 and at common law.

11 And at this stage, I think it right to make it clear

12 there are two issues for consideration: anonymity and

13 screening. A decision on one will not automatically

14 affect the decision to be made on the other.

15 In a minute or two, I shall rise so that the

16 practical measures following from my decision about

17 redaction can be implemented. But I make at this stage

18 a restriction order under section 19(1)(b) in relation

19 to redactions made as a result of today's hearing so

20 long as these redactions are still in force. And I also

21 make a similar order to prevent the disclosure of names

22 and identities in the press or other aspects of the

23 media, taken from the website entry of the evidence --

24 that is the website for the Robert Hamill Inquiry -- or

25 obtained from any other source. That order is made

1 conditional upon the media being able to apply and argue

2 against the making of such an order. I think they will

3 understand if I say the matter is one of some urgency

4 and I will hear any applications they may wish to make

5 tomorrow morning. I think that, though not a long time,

6 gives them adequate time in a matter of this nature.

7 And I should explain and make quite clear that the

8 restriction order I make applies not only, of course, to

9 the media but to all, and it applies to any inadvertent

10 disclosure. And if someone lets a name slip here, that

11 doesn't mean that, because it has been allowed to slip

12 out, it escapes the bite of the restriction order I make

13 today under section 19. So --

14 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm so sorry, sir, I didn't mean to

15 interrupt.

16 Can I just point out the basis upon which I observed

17 that the restriction orders that you've just made might

18 be of value under section 19(3)(b) of the 2005 Act,

19 namely:

20 "As the Chairman considers to be conducive to the

21 inquiry fulfilling its terms of reference, or to be

22 necessary in the public interest having regard in

23 particular to the matters mentioned in subsection (4)."

24 And in subsection (4), (b) is:

25 "Any risk of harm or damage that could be avoided or

1 reduced by any such restriction."

2 That in itself -- I'm so sorry -- derives force from

3 subsection (5), which defines harm or damage as

4 including in particular "death or injury", and certainly

5 what I had in mind in proposing this was that it may be,

6 for the purpose of avoiding that risk, that you would

7 make this order.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Certainly. If I don't make the order,

9 then the potential harm which Mr Adair seeks to avoid

10 would simply not be avoided or might not be avoided, it

11 depends on the approach of the media. Very well, thank

12 you. Then we shall rise until we are ready to continue.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: I'm told 20 minutes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 minutes.

15 (12.15 pm)

16 (Short adjournment)

17 (12.42 pm)

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

19 MR McCOMB: I have had some further discussions with

20 Mr Underwood and I have taken some limited instructions

21 as well in relation to some of my clients, sir. I would

22 perhaps respectfully request that I might make an

23 application perhaps in camera. There are some matters

24 which I would not wish to air in public.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Is that an application you would like

1 to make before we begin to hear any evidence?

2 MR McCOMB: I would be grateful, sir, yes.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. It takes about ten minutes,

4 doesn't it, to re-arrange the information technology?

5 How long do you think your application will take?

6 MR McCOMB: Subject to other people's objections, I would

7 think it shouldn't be terribly long, sir. It is hard to

8 gauge, perhaps 15/20 minutes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. Well, I think we will hear it at five

10 to two.

11 MR McCOMB: I'm very much obliged, sir.

12 (12.44 pm)

13 (The short adjournment)

14 (1.55 pm)

15 (In camera)

16 (2.55 pm)

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood, we propose to sit and complete

18 the two witnesses whom we have today.

19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Rather than that a witness be sent away only

21 to come back tomorrow.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. I will call the first of those, who is

23 Dean Forbes.

24 MR DEAN FORBES (sworn)

25 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I ask your full name, please?

2 A. It is Dean Forbes.

3 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about events of the night

4 of the 27th, or rather the morning of 27 April 1997. I

5 think you understand that. And I want to start by

6 asking you briefly where you started from, where you

7 ended up in the town that night.

8 We have got a map on the screen in front of us. If

9 you can orientate yourself on that?

10 A. I probably got off the bus at A, which is Herron's and

11 walked up to Boss Hogg's, which is C, and continued my

12 way up towards the town until I got to the Halifax where

13 I crossed the road.

14 Q. Hm-mm. So you crossed at about the junction?

15 A. I crossed probably halfway between Edward Street and

16 Thomas Street.

17 Q. Right. Can we have the model up on the screen, please?

18 You are about to see a model which we constructed from

19 photographs and we put a Land Rover there. Is that

20 where it was, in fact?

21 A. It is, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, can I ask you then to roll back the

23 cameras a bit and talk about the time at the Coach Inn.

24 I take it you were at the Coach Inn --

25 A. I was.

1 Q. -- and that is the bus you caught back?

2 A. It is, yes.

3 Q. A lot of the witnesses we've had tell us, naturally

4 enough, that about that time in the morning they had had

5 a lot to drink. Was that true of you?

6 A. I had had a bit, but towards the evening I wasn't too

7 well. So I had actually stopped drinking.

8 Q. Okay. But if we look at page [06935], please, we see an

9 interview of you here. I just want to ask you about

10 some parts of this and see if we can jog your memory of

11 the way things went. Against the word "Forbes" towards

12 the top there, there you say:

13 "Got as far, walked up Edward, just... walking past

14 Edward Street, and then we got so far up and we heard the

15 shouting, so we crossed the road... just walked straight

16 across to the Northern Bank. Then we decided -- we

17 walked up another bit and then the police Land Rover was

18 sitting."

19 And you were asked who was with you, and you say:

20 "At the corner?

21 Question: "At that stage, when you cross over the

22 road towards Northern Bank."

23 Answer: "Just me and Stacey."

24 If we can leap on to [06939], you were asked at the

25 top:

1 "Right, you cross over the road. As you're

2 crossing over the road, did you see anything?

3 Answer: "There was, just at Eastwoods there was

4 a row going on between --"

5 Question: "What do you mean 'a row'?"

6 Answer: "Just people shouting at each other. You

7 know, I didn't know if it was people coming out of

8 Jameson's, you know."

9 With the aid of that, can you help us with what was

10 going on as you crossed the road?

11 A. It is hard to describe. The reason we were crossed over

12 is because we didn't want to get involved in what was

13 going on, and with the Land Rover being on the other

14 side of the road, it was probably the best place to be

15 crossing. So it just seemed that people were shouting

16 at each other and arguing with each other, so that's why

17 we crossed over.

18 Q. Can you give us ideas of numbers?

19 A. Probably five or six people.

20 Q. Just five or six people altogether arguing amongst

21 themselves?

22 A. Yes, probably about five or six.

23 Q. Sectarian shouting?

24 A. A bit of bigotry being shouted.

25 Q. "Orange bastards", that sort of thing?

1 A. Yes, from both.

2 Q. And, again, you were asked here -- it just goes on:

3 "Was there any fisticuffs?"

4 It goes on:

5 "Physical fighting going on at that stage?"

6 You say:

7 "Not at that time, no... Just rowing like mad."

8 So we have got the Land Rover sitting there. We

9 have got this five or six people rowing like mad at the

10 corner. Were they actually in the main street or were

11 they in Thomas Street?

12 A. It was probably more into the mouth of it, just in the

13 middle of road, so it was.

14 Q. And you walked across the road to get away from it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Towards the Land Rover. Anything else going on in the

17 street? Did you see other groups of people walking up?

18 A. I could see a group on the same side of the road,

19 probably about another 15/20 yards ahead of us.

20 Q. Do you mean on the same side of the road after you'd

21 crossed, or before?

22 A. Yes, on the same side of the road that we'd crossed

23 over to.

24 Q. As it were, the Woodhouse Street?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then there is -- you understand, of course, that

2 we've had Mr Bridgett giving evidence. There is

3 a question whether you were called over to the

4 Land Rover or whether you went directly to it

5 voluntarily. Did anything happen between you wanting to

6 go across to it and you actually arriving?

7 A. I think we were just for walking past it until we heard

8 a call from the Land Rover.

9 Q. If we look at page [06969], again, it is part of the

10 interview, just to refresh your memory of what is said

11 against you on this. Let's take the word "Forbes" at

12 the top there, against that you say:

13 "Aye, they might know us, but definitely we didn't

14 approach anybody at the top of Woodhouse Street. There

15 was nobody to be seen apart from the Land Rovers."

16 Question: "Did yous come up to anyone and say,

17 'Here, what are you doing?' Or did they say to you,

18 'What are you doing?'"

19 Answer: "Nothing, there was nobody, there was --

20 there wasn't a sinner."

21 Question: "Was there not a man said --"

22 Answer: "On that side of the road?"

23 Question: "Was there not a man said to youse, 'Look,

24 I don't want any bother, I want no hassle'?"

25 What that is about is there is a man called

1 Mr Mallon who said that he went to warn the police in

2 the Land Rover that people were coming up Thomas Street,

3 and as he was wanting to go back up Woodhouse Street

4 that Mr Bridgett, at least, went up to him and spoke to

5 him. You say you have got no recollection of that?

6 A. I don't know, I don't recall any.

7 Q. As part of the evidence surrounding that, there is also

8 a suggestion that by that stage there were about four of

9 you?

10 A. No, it was just me and Stacey on our own.

11 Q. Okay. There is also evidence that Mr Bridgett was

12 holding a bottle of cider at that stage. Do you recall

13 that?

14 A. Well, when I got questioned a few years back, I couldn't

15 really remember back then, as far back. So I couldn't

16 recall whenever you mentioned again about the bottle.

17 Q. Okay. Then can you tell us as best you can recall it

18 how things developed from there. Did you stand talking

19 to the police in the Land Rover?

20 A. Yes, we were standing at the passenger side door on the

21 inner part of door, just talking away to the two police

22 officers in the front.

23 Q. We know there was a woman police officer in the

24 passenger seat?

25 A. That is right.

1 Q. Another police officer driver and there were two police

2 in the back?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you talking to just two of them or was it a general

5 conversation?

6 A. It was more just the two in the front that we were

7 talking about it.

8 Q. Did you know either of them?

9 A. No, not by name or anything.

10 Q. Did you get the impression that Mr Bridgett knew them?

11 A. They had called out to Stacey so I automatically thought

12 they knew him, so that's why we went over.

13 Q. Is that your evidence then: that the reason they called

14 you over was they knew him?

15 A. We had heard them calling out saying Stacey's name, so

16 we stopped and went back over to the Land Rover.

17 Q. And at this stage, then, you are conscious that there

18 was a row going on, as it were, the other side of the

19 Land Rover?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Again, were you aware of anything else going on around

22 you, any other activity?

23 A. I couldn't see anything from where I was standing.

24 Q. Okay. What happened then?

25 A. We had stood maybe for about five minutes and the next

1 minute the driver side door swung open and a man

2 shouted, "Are you going to let these 'uns get away with

3 this?"

4 Q. This was out of the blue, was it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you at the time connect that with the rowing that

7 you had seen going on earlier?

8 A. No, because we couldn't see what was going on.

9 Q. Do you recall whether you could still hear the rowing

10 while you were standing talking to the police?

11 A. You could hear a bit of shouting, but just probably

12 normal in the town. If there was a crowd about, you

13 would hear shouting coming from any direction.

14 Q. To go back a bit, when you say one of the officers

15 called Stacey's name out, that is what got you over?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was that the lady police officer or one of the others?

18 A. No, it was a male voice, so it was.

19 Q. And in your first interview with the police you

20 described the man who opened the policeman's door as

21 wearing a blue shirt and a tie?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Do you have a recollection of that now?

24 A. Not a description of his face or anything, just more of

25 what he was wearing.

1 Q. Can you give us any more help: height, size, weight,

2 colour of hair?

3 A. Probably five ten.

4 Q. And how did he appear? Was he very agitated, shouting?

5 A. He seemed to be angry, so he did.

6 Q. And what could you see after the doors opened?

7 A. Then, that is when you could see people actually fighting

8 in the middle of the street.

9 Q. And, again, help us on that: You are looking through

10 the Land Rover?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You have still got the woman police constable in --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the driver, was he actually pulled out or did he

15 get out?

16 A. He seemed to be gripped by his shirt.

17 Q. And there is a sufficient view then for you to see

18 people fighting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you only see it, as it were, through the Land

21 Rover --

22 A. The door was only slightly open, but you could see, you

23 know, a fight going on, so you could.

24 Q. But that is through the doors rather than around it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Again, could you give us help with numbers at that

2 stage?

3 A. No, not at that stage.

4 Q. What did the police do?

5 A. The policewoman got out of the Land Rover and told me

6 and Stacey to get on up the town. So that is when we

7 backed off from the Land Rover.

8 Q. Did you get any impression of what the police in the

9 back of Land Rover did?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Just if I could take you to page [06941], again, it is

12 one of your police interviews, and the version you

13 give -- the large part of the page here. You say:

14 "Just whenever we were talking to the police

15 officers in the Land Rover and the driver had his door

16 open and they were all facing us, you know, talking away.

17 And then, I don't know, I think there was a boy wearing

18 a blue shirt and tie or something, and he went like

19 that. He just grabbed a police officer and he just

20 says, 'Are youse going to let them Orange bastards get

21 away with that there?'"

22 Can I just stop you on that? You say there the

23 driver had his door open. Obviously you are at the

24 passenger side, and we know that door's open and you're

25 inside it. Is that right, that the driver had his door

1 open as well?

2 A. I think -- usually they sit with the doors slightly open

3 or with their foot against it. Then it was swung

4 completely open, so it was.

5 Q. Are you doing this from your general understanding --

6 A. Just from where I was standing. If you are walking up

7 the town any day of the week or any time you would see a

8 Land Rover sitting and they usually had their foot

9 against the door and you would see it was open a bit.

10 Q. Are you relying on your general recollection for this

11 or, when you were interviewed about this, were you

12 recalling what you saw on the night? Do you remember?

13 A. I think it is just where your man swung the door open

14 from because he didn't grab it by the handle.

15 Q. Right. It goes on:

16 "So, and then the woman police officer in the

17 passenger seat looked at us and she just says -- she

18 says, you know, 'Get down the town' and we says, 'No, we

19 live up there' and then the police officer in the back

20 says, 'But no, go on' and they all got out at that

21 stage. And by that time, when we went round the back of

22 the Land Rover, they were already, you know, chucking

23 bottles and everything at each other."

24 With the aid of that, can you scour your memory and,

25 doing the best you can, tell us whether the police did

1 get out at that stage?

2 A. Just the policewoman, so it was.

3 Q. Okay. Pick up what happened at the back there. You say

4 by the time you got round to the back of the Land Rover,

5 there is bottles being chucked?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Again, can you give us the picture of what you saw when

8 you got round the back?

9 A. It was just more or less people fighting and more or

10 less getting tore into each other, as I would say it.

11 Q. Have the numbers changed?

12 A. You are probably talking 20 or more.

13 Q. Had the position changed? Are we still talking about

14 the mouth of Thomas Street?

15 A. Still in the mouth of Thomas Street.

16 Q. We know Mr Bridgett got a bloody nose and he says that

17 that happened around the back of Land Rover. Did you

18 see that happen?

19 A. I didn't, no.

20 Q. And can I ask you -- I'll ask you in more detail about

21 how things developed, but taking an overview of the

22 police activity, did you see any other police activity

23 that night?

24 A. Not until I backed off, up until about halfway up the

25 town.

1 Q. Did that involve the officers who were in the Land Rover

2 or was it reinforcements?

3 A. No, I think it was reinforcements.

4 Q. From the five minutes that you say you were at the

5 Land Rover, were you able to see enough of the officers

6 who were in the back to be able to say whether they were

7 actually on the street later?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So the ones you thought were reinforcements could have

10 been the ones in the back of the Land Rover?

11 A. Probably. I can't say honestly say.

12 Q. Okay. And if we look at page [06954], again, it is one

13 of your interviews. If we take the bottom paragraph

14 there:

15 "When I came back round the back of the Land Rover,

16 that is whenever the bottles, they started. And people

17 were just starting to get tore into each other, and the

18 police -- they just ran straight in and tried to break

19 it up. But -- well, there was too many of them. There

20 was only four police officers at that stage or even

21 three, because the other one stayed in the Land Rover,

22 you know, to radio for help or whatever. And then they

23 tried to run in, but the crowd just -- they just came in

24 like that from both sides, you know, and the police were

25 getting hit as well with bottles and everything, and

1 then all of a sudden boys were just hitting the ground."

2 So what you are describing there in that interview

3 was the four in the Land Rover doing the best. That is

4 not your recollection now; is that right?

5 A. I think there had been a police car had come on to the

6 scene in maybe five or ten minutes, so I don't know

7 whether it was the police in the Land Rover or the

8 police in the car that actually had been trying -- came

9 down.

10 Q. It is long time ago and memories change, and what the

11 Panel has got to try to understand is what the police

12 did. Principally, at the moment, we are concerned with

13 whether the police got out off the Land Rover quickly

14 enough. And there you are interviewed in May 1997

15 saying by the time you got round the back of Land Rover,

16 the crew of the Land Rover had got out and just tore in.

17 Can you help on whether you would have had a good

18 recollection in May when you were interviewed and you

19 would have been calm and telling the truth to the best

20 of your recollection then and, therefore, that your

21 recollection has gone wrong now, or whether there is

22 some reason why you weren't giving an accurate

23 recollection then?

24 A. I think it was probably more where I had backed off to

25 the Abbey National that I had seen the police being

1 involved.

2 Q. Is the scene you are describing there still your

3 recollection, that police are trying to help but they

4 are overwhelmed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sorry, I promised I would go back to a sequence of

7 events.

8 You are at the back of the Land Rover, there is

9 fighting going on, people getting tore into each other,

10 bottles are flying, what did you do?

11 A. The policewoman had said to back off, to head on up the

12 town and I started to walk back towards the

13 Abbey National.

14 Q. What happened to Mr Bridgett?

15 A. I can't honestly say what happened to him.

16 Q. Okay, were you under any threat?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you help us with why you can't recall what happened

19 to Stacey Bridgett?

20 A. Because I think just once the policewoman said to get

21 offside, more or less, I just headed on.

22 Q. No backward looks?

23 A. No, I just walked on.

24 Q. And where did you end up?

25 A. Probably in the middle of the road level with the

1 Abbey National, Dorothy Perkins.

2 Q. If we go back to the model, if we go round to the left,

3 is enough on this part of the scene --

4 A. Probably where the tree is in the middle of the road.

5 Q. I see. So very close to the church?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Right. And can I take you to page [07064]? Taking it

8 from the top of this page, top line:

9 "We backed off from the Land Rover and that is

10 whenever two or three men came round the corner and

11 said, you know, like, 'Come on' our something. But we

12 didn't know -- we didn't know what was going on at that

13 stage. And then when we got to the back of the Land

14 Rover, we noticed that there was a big row going on and

15 there was already two fellows lying on the ground.

16 Question: "And what did you do?"

17 Answer: "Well, I did what the policewoman had told

18 me to do, backed off.

19 Question: "There was two fellows lying on the ground -

20 could you describe the position of those

21 in relation to the junction and any of the shops that

22 are there?"

23 And you said:

24 "Where Eastwoods shutter was, just sort of

25 level with that in the middle of the road."

1 Now, is that your recollection now?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Perhaps we could go back to the model. Sorry to go

4 backwards and forwards. If we look back down to the

5 right and stop it there, is this the area where the

6 people were on the ground?

7 A. Urm ...

8 Q. Or do we need to go to the right or the left?

9 A. It probably would be more into the middle of road, so it

10 was.

11 Q. This was taken from just outside Eastwoods, if that is

12 any help to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. We have got the facility -- I don't know whether you

15 know -- to be able to mark on the screen. It will take

16 a moment. Can we have a screen shot of this? Okay,

17 that is all yours now. I think there were two people on

18 the ground. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you do two marks for us -- we will number them --

21 as best you can? If we call the one closest to us

22 number 1 and the other number 2, can we leave that on

23 the screen while I just read to you a little more of the

24 interview. You were asked about the position of these

25 two and you say of one of them:

1 "Where Eastwoods shutter was."

2 Is that now number 1?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "[It was] just sort of level with that in the middle of

5 road."

6 You are asked what he was wearing, and you say [07065]:

7 "I couldn't tell you if it was a shirt... it was a

8 dark top, I think.

9 Question: "At that stage, was that the first time

10 you had seen him lying on the road? What was happening

11 at that stage, then, whenever you first seen that?"

12 Answer: "Well, people were just, you know, getting

13 tore into each other and then the police."

14 Question: "What do you mean getting tore into each

15 other?"

16 Answer: "Hitting each other with the fists and what

17 have you, and while that fellow was lying on the ground and then."

18 Question: "Did you see him being struck?"

19 Answer: "Shortly after, when I moved further back,

20 I could see him getting hit. He was getting kicked

21 even."

22 Question: "Where did you see those kicks going to?

23 And you say, "the ribs." [07066]

24 Question: "And he was kicked about the head, isn't

25 that right?"

1 Answer: "Well I saw another fellow running in and

2 kicking him from the crowd, but I couldn't see where he

3 was getting kicked."

4 You are asked about the other one and you say you

5 couldn't remember what he was wearing.

6 Question [07067]: "What did you see happening to him?"

7 Answer: "Nothing. He was just lying there and

8 a girl was holding him. She had lifted him up and was

9 cuddling him."

10 Is that a fair assessment of what you saw, that

11 the number 1 person was getting kicked while the

12 fighting was going on?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the number 2 person had a girl with him, looking

15 after him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just help me with your recollection of the police at

18 this stage. We know that your recollection now is that

19 the policewoman got out?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see any police activity around these two men

22 while they were on the ground?

23 A. Probably within about five or ten minutes.

24 Q. And is this the activity you were talking about earlier,

25 that you can't pin down --

1 A. I can't pin down if it was the police in the Land Rover

2 or if it was the first car that came on to the scene.

3 Q. What were they doing when you saw them around these

4 people?

5 A. The police were just trying to break up the fights that

6 were going on.

7 Q. Again, were they overwhelmed on this or were they able

8 to have some effect?

9 A. I would say there was probably only about four police

10 officers on to the scene. I can't say how many more

11 came on, but the crowd was over about 20 strong,

12 probably.

13 Q. Obviously outnumbered, but were they having an effect?

14 A. They were trying to get people off each other, so I

15 think that was helping, but I don't know.

16 Q. Were they directly having anything to do with the people

17 who were kicking, or kicking out, the number 1 person?

18 A. I couldn't see.

19 Q. Okay. And if we look at page [06974], the final question

20 at the bottom.

21 Question: "You see the guy lying on the ground.

22 What did you see happening to him?"

23 Answer: "Well when he was lying on the ground, there was

24 a boy with black hair, real dark hair, with a black

25 bomber jacket on and he just ran in with the boot and

1 wallop right into the back of him."

2 Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was this somebody you had ever seen before?

5 A. No.

6 Q. If we look at page [06982], you were asked about whether

7 you had any idea who put the boot into him, and you say

8 at the top:

9 "That is what I mean, I saw a couple of boys. There

10 was a boy in green, green top, he ran in. He had short

11 hair. And then the guy in the black jacket run in with

12 the long black hair, and that's all I could see from the

13 back."

14 So two people then, one with a green top and one

15 with a black jacket?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Again, had you seen the one with the green top before?

18 A. No, because all I could see was the back of him.

19 Q. Was everyone running in from your direction then so that

20 you could only see the back?

21 A. Well, you could see people from both sides, but from

22 where I was standing the fight was more down into the

23 town.

24 Q. And if we look at page [06979], halfway down the page,

25 there is a question:

1 "And you see round the back -- sorry, in the back,

2 you see a few others going down and putting the boot in

3 as well. Isn't that right?

4 Answer: "Well, I saw there was people just running

5 in and just booting him, coming back out and then just

6 the woman ran over and she held him, you know, in tight,

7 in to her so that they couldn't run back in and hit him

8 or hit him again."

9 So we are still dealing with number 1, the person

10 you put number 1 against the cross here, are we?

11 A. I think it was number 2 --

12 Q. Right.

13 A. -- that was being held.

14 Q. So is it only one of them that you ever saw with a

15 woman?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Right. And if we look at [06963], I think, you were

18 asked about whether some people know you halfway down

19 the page, and then you say:

20 "Yeah, because they came over to me and they says,

21 you know, 'Were you in the middle of that' and I goes,

22 'No, I was over there' and they pulled me back another

23 bit and then this woman was standing pointing and

24 shouting."

25 "Question: Why, why not? Yes

2 What does she look like?

3 Answer: "The woman who was shouting? ... She was

4 wearing a white t-shirt or a jumper or something."

5 Asked to describe her hairstyle, you say:

6 "Short streaky, probably. I don't know.

7 Question: "What was she shouting?"

8 Answer: "... I don't know if she was just shouting, you

9 know, 'Get you away from here' and all this here or --"

10 Was she shouting this at you?

11 A. No, I think she is just shouting to the general crowd.

12 Q. That's what you say there. What's going on here is you

13 describing that there were some girls who were asking

14 you whether you were involved and pulling you back a

15 bit, and there is this other girl in a white top and the

16 short streaky hair who is shouting either get away or

17 something or accusing. Where was this? Where were you?

18 A. Still where I was standing.

19 Q. So this is right up by the church?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That a person in a white top has come up to make these

22 accusations or whatever they are, all the way up from

23 the junction. Is that right?

24 A. No, I could see her from where I was standing, that she

25 was in the middle of the crowd.

1 Q. So this is a long distance shout?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were pulled further back by these girls?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. To where? Up to the church?

6 A. It was probably just a few steps back, so it was.

7 Q. Can you say why they did that?

8 A. No, they were just talking, so they were.

9 Q. Then, if we look at page [17328], please, this is the

10 second page of a statement of Tracey Clarke. I know you

11 have seen this before?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you just tell us whether you knew Tracey Clarke at

14 the time?

15 A. Just to see.

16 Q. Okay. If we pick this up from the second line, she is

17 describing -- to the right-hand side on the second line:

18 "I saw two people lying on the street. One was near

19 the centre of the road and the other was near the

20 footpath close to Eastwoods. The person I saw in the

21 middle of the road I thought was dead as he was not

22 moving. It was at this time that I saw a number of

23 persons gathered round the person lying in the centre of

24 the road. These persons were kicking the person on the

25 ground around the head and the body."

1 Just stopping there, you put number 1 near Eastwoods

2 and number 2 in the centre of the road?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the person being kicked was number 1. Is that

5 right?

6 A. Number 2.

7 Q. Number 2, right:

8 "These persons were kicking the person on the ground

9 around the head and body. I saw them jump on the person

10 on the ground. They jumped all over him and kicked him.

11 I saw the persons who were doing this and I can identify

12 them as, (1) Dean Forbes, (2) Allister Hanvey, (3)

13 Stacey Bridgett, (4) 'Muck', (5) Rory Robinson. The

14 other person lying near Eastwoods was being helped by

15 Michelle Jamieson, but I saw persons run up and kick him

16 around the head and body and Michelle was telling them

17 to stop. At that time, I saw a number of police behind

18 the crowd who were attacking the two persons lying on

19 the ground."

20 So she is describing there very much the positions

21 of the men that you spoke of. She is describing the

22 activity towards the number 2 person and, indeed, the

23 activity round the number 1 person of the girl with him.

24 Can you tell us why she would name you?

25 A. I can't say honestly say.

1 Q. We know she had an on/off relationship with

2 Allister Hanvey and that there is some suggestion that

3 she made this statement to spite him. Do you know

4 Allister Hanvey?

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. Was there any reason to your knowledge that if she was

7 making this statement to spite him, she might have

8 wrapped you up in it?

9 A. I could not.

10 Q. Obviously she also names Stacey Bridgett there and we

11 know that you were with him to start with. Did you see

12 him in the body of people who were kicking?

13 A. I didn't, no.

14 Q. What about 'Muck', who we take to be Marc Hobson. Did you

15 know him?

16 A. Just to see.

17 Q. And Rory Robinson?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Again, can you offer any explanation why you would be

20 grouped together with these people in an accusation that

21 you were doing this kicking?

22 A. I don't honestly know because I wasn't even out with them

23 that night.

24 Q. Then if we look at page [00268], this is the third page

25 of a statement made by Timothy Jameson. Again, did you

1 know him?

2 A. I did, yes.

3 Q. And he describes the scene as well. He describes people

4 kicking, and if we look to the bottom of page [00268],

5 the final three lines:

6 "I was about Pound Stretcher and I saw Dean Forbes

7 punch a fellow on the face and run off towards me. The

8 fellow Dean Forbes punched was the fellow wearing the

9 grey Umbro sweater."

10 Is that true?

11 A. It is not.

12 Q. Again, can you help us with why he would have made

13 a statement which alleges --

14 A. Personally, I don't know why he would make something up

15 like that.

16 Q. Have you spoken to him about it since?

17 A. I have never seen him.

18 Q. Have you spoken to Tracey Clarke?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When did you first become aware that these allegations

21 were being made against you? Was it before you were

22 arrested?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So after you were arrested you learned that these had

25 been made, I take it because they were put to you, I

1 think?

2 A. They were put through as witnesses that had seen what

3 had went on in town that night.

4 Q. Were they not named at that stage?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you learn who A and B were?

7 A. About two weeks ago.

8 Q. Did it surprise you?

9 A. Honestly? No.

10 Q. Were you expecting then that Tracey Clarke was somebody

11 who might have made a statement of that sort?

12 A. I don't know what type of girl she would be.

13 Q. I'm asking because the Panel would like to know why it

14 was that you weren't surprised?

15 A. No, not that I wasn't surprised that the statements were

16 made, just -- I wasn't shocked, you know, at seeing

17 names on it or anything, so I wasn't.

18 Q. Okay. And if I could take you to page [06949], you have

19 just described in interview a person wearing a Rangers

20 scarf and a white baseball cap being put in a Land Rover

21 and coming out again, and in the middle of [06949], you

22 are asked:

23 "At that stage, when you see this guy getting out of

24 the Land Rover and being rearrested and all the rest,

25 were you just standing [or] were you being held back by

1 police at that stage?

2 Answer: "No, I was just up at that, you know, that

3 new bit in front of the War Memorial. I was just -- we

4 were standing up there, and then when the rest of the

5 crowd was getting pushed back A ..."

6 (the lady constable we know)

7 "... just comes over to me and she says, 'Come on,

8 out of the town... just disappear' as if to say -- then

9 she just said that everybody -- it was just anybody that

10 was even sitting on the Summer Seats in the town that

11 night, they just turned round and said, 'Come on, out of

12 the town, you shouldn't be hanging about'."

13 Can you help us with that? What did you see this

14 person with the Rangers scarf doing? What did you see

15 happening to him?

16 A. He was standing facing the policewoman and I had seen

17 somebody run from behind in the direction of the crowd

18 and that is when the policewoman made a go for him.

19 Q. Did she catch him?

20 A. She did, yes.

21 Q. And get him in the Land Rover?

22 A. She did.

23 Q. With help?

24 A. With -- from about probably two or three officers.

25 Q. And she put him in the back, I think?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how long was he in there?

3 A. A couple of minutes.

4 Q. Could you help us with what else was going on at that

5 stage, in particular in terms of what other police

6 officers were doing?

7 A. They were more or less trying to push everybody back up

8 the town at this stage.

9 Q. So it follows, does it, that from a stage where there

10 are only a few officers who were outnumbered who were

11 trying to stop people fighting, there came a point where

12 there was sufficient police officers to be able to push

13 people up?

14 A. That is correct, yes.

15 Q. And you told us earlier on there were reinforcements.

16 Can you tell us how that developed in terms of the

17 police presence and what the police did?

18 A. You could see the cars and Land Rovers coming out of

19 Edward Street, so they were just getting out and more or

20 less just trying to push everybody back. And then that

21 is -- from where I was standing that I was getting

22 pushed back about halfway up the town by this stage.

23 Q. Was that the first contact you had with that lady we are

24 calling A?

25 A. That is correct, yes.

1 Q. And if we look at page [09236], this is the second page

2 of that lady's statement that she made on 27 April 1997.

3 If I pick up from about five lines down, she said:

4 "At 0157, I placed Lunt in the rear of a police

5 Land Rover to ascertain his name and address."

6 We know that she is referring there to the man in

7 the white with the Rangers scarf at the top, the cap,

8 rather. Did you know his name?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Had you seen him before?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And she goes on:

13 "This was done as Lunt was continually trying to

14 pull away from me and some members of the crowd were

15 also trying to pull him back into the crowd. Lunt left

16 the Land Rover at approximately 0205 hours to be spoken

17 to at a later date. At this time, I returned to other

18 police members who were trying to clear the road.

19 I observed persons whom I know to be Stacey Bridgett

20 ..."

21 It gives the address:

22 "... Bridgett was wearing a cream shirt with a fine

23 brown stripe over white jeans. He had blood coming from

24 his nose. I also observed someone else. He was wearing

25 a multicoloured check shirt tucked into blue denim jeans

1 and a black jacket with black shoes. Dean Forbes... was

2 also in the crowd. He was wearing a light coloured

3 check shirt over cream coloured trousers. The crowd was

4 pushed back behind the West Street barrier, where they

5 remained for a length of time."

6 So is that right, that you were part of the crowd

7 being pushed back by the time she was involved?

8 A. I had been standing talking to her probably for three or

9 four minutes and the officers were still trying to force

10 people back.

11 Q. This is your evidence, is it: that where you were

12 standing was overtaken by the crowd being pushed back?

13 A. Yes.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: And then you were pushed back with them, is

15 that it?

16 A. From where I was standing, the police were pushing

17 everybody back and they were ushering everybody up the

18 town.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Including you?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: If we look at page [07084], yet more of your

22 interview, halfway down there is a question:

23 "But wasn't there people fighting and running about

24 and shouting all over the place? I mean, you can't say

25 to me that at all times people had their back to you.

1 Answer: "They had, because there from there on in,

2 I, whenever A, the police officer, came up to me and she

3 says -- she turned round and she said to me, 'Oh wouldn't

4 you know, you would be involved in this', she says.

5 Here's me -- 'involved in what?' And I just says, 'I am

6 not that bloody stupid to get involved in things like

7 this here whenever yous all know me'."

8 Can you help us with why she would accuse you of

9 being involved at the time?

10 A. I don't know why she thinks I would be involved, but

11 I always got on well with her any time I bumped into

12 her. So I don't know why she would say ...

13 Q. Can you recall what state she was in when she said that

14 to you? Was she angry or was it bantering or what?

15 A. She just seemed to be smiling.

16 Q. Okay. And if I take you to page [07004], please, yet

17 more of your interview, and it starts, the first mention

18 of your name there is the word "Ducko":

19 "He was with Ducko."

20 Answer: "No, Ducko was standing about whenever, you

21 know, the fight was going on. He was standing back from

22 it at Dorothy Perkins, so he was.

23 Question: "Who's Ducko? That name is

24 familiar."

25 Answer: "Donald or something -- you call him or

1 something. I think that's who it is."

2 You are asked more about him. Can you help us with

3 who that was?

4 A. It is a person called Donald Blevins.

5 Q. Thank you. And if we move on from what happens then,

6 did you go back home?

7 A. Well, when we were -- when the police were pushing

8 everybody back to Mandeville Street, we stayed around

9 there for a few minutes and then started to walk on --

10 Q. Where did you rejoin Mr Bridgett?

11 A. At the corner of Mandeville Street.

12 Q. And his nose was bleeding at that time?

13 A. I think it was cleared up by then.

14 Q. Was there any discussion between you about that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And if we look at page [07006], you were asked about

17 this, and the bottom line:

18 "The only time I saw him was way later on that

19 night."

20 Question [07007]: "What time would that have been at?"

21 Answer: "Whenever I was heading home."

22 Question: "What time was it?"

23 Answer: "Say, you know, by the time the police

24 pushed everybody right up to, you know,

25 Mandeville Street, it would have been, just shortly

1 after that at the bridge, about 15 minutes after that,

2 whatever time that was, because I had no watch on, so I

3 don't actually know what time it was."

4 Question: "And did you notice anything wrong with him

5 at that stage? Was anything discussed?"

6 Answer: "Aye, his nose just. But there was no --

7 he, he was just standing -- just by himself standing."

8 Question: "Did he mention the nose to you?"

9 Answer: "Aye, he just says -- he says, 'Did you see

10 me getting hit?' I goes, 'No' and then some young girl,

11 you know, said he got hit but then she didn't say

12 nothing more about it."

13 Do you recall that now?

14 A. I do, yes.

15 Q. Was that it, there was no discussion about how he might

16 have got hit?

17 A. Well, Stacey, he got a bloody nose very easily so it was

18 just another day to me seeing him.

19 Q. But he must have been much nearer the action than you.

20 That's the point, isn't it?

21 A. I can't honestly say.

22 Q. Then, do you know Victoria Clayton?

23 A. I know her to see.

24 Q. Was that the young girl that you are talking about

25 there?

1 A. I can't remember, to be honest.

2 Q. And I think then you went to Tracey McAlpine's house.

3 Is that right?

4 A. I went in the direction, yes.

5 Q. Did you go in and spend any time there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You know there are a number of people who say you were

8 there?

9 A. I do, yes.

10 Q. And they are all just wrong, are they?

11 A. I was there every other Saturday other night, so unless

12 they got their Saturday nights mixed up or something.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: I see. Very well. I have no more questions

14 for you, thank you. Other people may do.

15 Questions by MR ADAIR

16 MR ADAIR: Mr Forbes, I just want to go back briefly to your

17 journey up towards Market Street, Woodhouse Street.

18 Now, as I understand it, you heard some shouting which

19 you think you said sounded like sectarian shouting,

20 "Orange bastards"?

21 A. I did, yes.

22 Q. Were there "Fenian bastards" shouted as well?

23 A. There was, yes.

24 Q. Something like that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And also at the time you were at the Land Rover, were

2 you aware of some noise which you have described again

3 as just the normal noise in Portadown, the centre, at

4 that time of night?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. So am I right then in saying that when you arrive at the

7 Land Rover, it is the usual Saturday night Portadown

8 after the pubs end, as far as the noise is concerned and

9 whatever is going on?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. There is certainly no fighting in the street, either

12 Thomas Street, Woodhouse Street, Market Street, High

13 Street, that you see at that stage?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Or nothing that you can see to indicate that anybody is

16 about to fight, nobody squaring up to each or anything?

17 A. Not at that time.

18 Q. No. And you have told us that your estimation is that

19 you stood at the Land Rover for about five minutes?

20 A. Probably, yes.

21 Q. Talking essentially, as I understand it, to the two

22 police officers in the front?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Am I right in saying that during that time, whether it

25 was as much as five minutes or whether it was less,

1 there was nothing to indicate anything out of the

2 normal?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Until the door opened?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Either in terms of noise or in terms of people fighting?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. And the first indicator of anything untoward is when the

9 driver's door is opened?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I think there is some query in your mind as to

12 whether it was opened in the sense of the handle being

13 put down and the door pulled open, or whether the door

14 was slightly open and just pulled open?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Do you understand the distinction?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I get the impression you are not quite sure which of

19 those it is, but the door in any event -- am I right in

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In any event, the driver's door is then pulled open by

23 this angry man?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Up until that point, you were actually looking into the

1 Land Rover, talking to the policeman?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And you weren't able to see anything going on?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And it is only when the driver's door opens that you are

6 able to see through the gap that is produced what you

7 say is fighting at that stage?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And was the driver actually pulled out of the

10 Land Rover?

11 A. I think he was just more or less swung round.

12 Q. In the seat?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But we do know that at that stage certainly the lady

15 police officer, who is in the passenger seat, she got

16 out?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you have told this inquiry today, Mr Forbes, that

19 you did not see any of the other police officers get out

20 of the Land Rover and in fact didn't see any police

21 really intervene until reinforcements arrived; isn't

22 that right?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Is that just a lie?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Have you something against the police now as a result of

2 being arrested and charged with murder?

3 A. I don't, no.

4 Q. You don't?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why are you saying that today when you said the precise

7 opposite when you were interviewed in May 1997?

8 A. I'm just saying what I can remember.

9 Q. Pardon?

10 A. I'm just saying what I can remember.

11 Q. Then were you lying when you talked to the police

12 in May 1997?

13 A. I can't recall.

14 Q. Well, try and recall. Were you lying when you were

15 interviewed by the police in May 1997 about what the

16 police did from the Land Rover?

17 A. Well, I can't recall. I can't recall if it was the

18 police in the Land Rover that got involved or if it was

19 the reinforcements that got involved.

20 Q. Well, you made it absolutely clear, I suggest, in your

21 interviews that it was the police in the Land Rover who

22 were involved in breaking up this crowd. I will come to

23 it in a moment.

24 Were you lying when you talked to the police

25 in May 1997 in your interview about what the police in

1 the Land Rover did?

2 A. Not lying, no.

3 Q. If we look briefly, Mr Forbes, at what you told the

4 police -- I'm not going to go through this in any great

5 detail with you -- if we first of all could have

6 page [07063], you see about halfway -- is that up on your

7 screen okay?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You see about halfway down -- this is you talking to the

10 police:

11 "... That lady police officer in fact told yous to move

12 on, she did have a conversation with you, but told yous

13 to move on?"

14 Sorry, that is a question from the police

15 man obviously. Your reply is:

16 "Yes, that was whenever the police officer that was

17 driving the Land Rover was either struck or pushed.

18 Question: "Yes."

19 Answer: "And then that was whenever she said, 'Get

20 below town', you know, 'Get out of here' or 'Get away' and

21 then -- so we backed off from the Land Rover and that is

22 whenever two or three men came round the corner and

23 said, you know, like, 'Come on' or something."

24 Now, just stopping there, which corner did these two

25 or three men come round?

1 A. I can't remember that happening.

2 Q. Well, try and remember. You have remembered quite a lot

3 today, Mr Forbes, so please try and remember what corner

4 these men came round.

5 A. I honestly can't remember.

6 Q. Are you talking about the corner from Thomas Street?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Well, what other corner?

9 A. I was only standing at Woodhouse Street.

10 Q. So it is either Woodhouse Street or Thomas Street

11 presumably?

12 A. I just can't remember seeing people come round the

13 Land Rover.

14 Q. "But we didn't know" -- this is when you have reached the

15 back of the Land Rover, two or three paces:

16 "We didn't know -- we didn't know what was going on

17 at that stage and then when we got to the back of

18 Land Rover, we noticed that there was a big row going on and

19 there was already two fellows were lying on the ground."

20 A. That is correct, yes.

21 Q. Are those the two you have indicated on the plan today?

22 A. It is, yes.

23 Q. So by the time you get to the back of the Land Rover, if

24 you are right, the two persons that we know about,

25 Mr Hamill and D, they are already lying on the ground?

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. And you are asked:

3 "And what did you do?"

4 Answer: "Well, I did what the policewoman had told me to

5 do, backed off."

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. So to summarise at this stage, the doors opened, the

9 driver is pulled, the policewoman gets out telling you

10 to get offside, you go to the back of the Land Rover and

11 the two men are lying on the ground?

12 A. That is correct, yes.

13 Q. Now, if you could turn up, please, page [06941] -- you

14 have already been asked about this, but I just want to

15 go through it with you in a little more detail, if

16 I might, Mr Forbes, because it is important in relation

17 to the police officers. Do you see where you say:

18 "Just whenever we were talking to the police

19 officers in the Land Rover and the driver had his door

20 open and they were all facing us, you know, talking away

21 and then, I don't know, I think there was a boy wearing a blue

22 shirt and tie or something and he went like that. He

23 just grabbed police officer and he just says, 'Are yous

24 going to let them Orange bastards get away with that

25 there?' ... Then the woman police officer in the passenger

1 seat looked at us and she just says, you know, 'Get down

2 the town' and we says, 'No, like, we live up there' and

3 then the police officer in the back says, 'But no, go

4 on'."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you reading it?

8 A. I am, yes.

9 Q. Look at the next bit:

10 "And they all got out at that stage, and by the

11 time -- by that time when we -- we went round the back

12 of the Land Rover, they were already, you know, chucking

13 bottles and everything at each other. They all got out

14 at that stage."

15 Now, it is simple English, Mr Forbes, that the

16 police in the Land Rover all got out at that stage,

17 doesn't it?

18 A. All I can say is I must have just worded it wrong at

19 that stage.

20 Q. Well, what way did you mean to word "and they all got

21 out"? What did you mean to say: "and they didn't all get

22 out?"

23 A. I meant to say that the policewoman had got out by that

24 stage.

25 Q. But you have already told us in this interview about the

1 policewoman got out. Why are you now telling us? So

2 instead of saying "and the policewoman got out", you've

3 put "they all got out". Well, it is not nonsense?

4 A. I can't say.

5 Q. If you turn up page [06954], please, you see the last

6 paragraph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "There was, when I came back round the back of the

9 Land Rover, that is whenever the bottles, they

10 started. And people were just starting to get tore into

11 each other and then the police, you know, they just ran

12 straight in and tried to break it up. But, well, there

13 was too many of them. There was only four police

14 officers at that stage, or even three because the other

15 one ..."

16 If we go over the page and highlight that paragraph:

17 "... because the other one stay in the Land Rover,

18 you know, to radio for help or whatever. And then they

19 tried to run in, but the crowd just -- they just came in

20 like that from both sides, you know, and the police are

21 getting hit as well with bottles and everything, and

22 then all of a sudden boys were just hitting the ground."

23 What did you mean to say when you said that?

24 A. I think it was whenever the first police car had come on

25 the scene that that is when they got out.

1 Q. I'm not going to read it again to you, Mr Forbes. You

2 are at the back of the Land Rover and you have told the

3 police in the interview, the police, they know, just ran

4 straight in and tried to break it up. There was only

5 four of them there at that stage. Are you talking about

6 the police in the Land Rover?

7 A. I can't honestly say if it was the reinforcements or if

8 it was the police in the Land Rover.

9 Q. Why did you use the word "Land Rover", if you turn over

10 to go to the next page, [06955]?

11 A. Because there had been another Land Rover come on the

12 scene.

13 Q. Why are you trying to down these officers, Mr Forbes?

14 Is it because one or other of them identified you at the

15 scene and were part and parcel of the reason you were

16 charged with this murder?

17 A. That's not correct, no.

18 Q. Well, I'll ask you -- and I'm going to leave it at this,

19 just leaving it -- can you explain why you said what you

20 did in May 1997 as opposed to what you are now saying

21 today?

22 A. I think it is just from being questioned for about

23 a week of a crime that I didn't do. That is all I can

24 say.

25 Q. Now, Mr Forbes, I know you deny this happened, but there

1 will be evidence before this Tribunal that you and

2 Stacey Bridgett were involved in some kind of face-off

3 or confrontation with a Mr Mallon, a gentleman on the

4 street. Do you remember that happening at all?

5 A. I remember seeing somebody walk down the high street,

6 yes.

7 Q. Do you remember any conversation with that person or any

8 discussion or any type of interaction?

9 A. No, I do not.

10 Q. So if we hear about that that is just made up too,

11 is it?

12 A. I'm not saying it is made up, but I just don't

13 recall it.

14 Q. Could it have happened, then?

15 A. It probably could, yes.

16 Q. I just want to make it clear to you, Mr Forbes, that I'm

17 suggesting that you are lying about what the police

18 officers did at the scene. Do you understand me?

19 A. I do, yes.

20 Q. Now, no doubt Mr McGrory will deal with you in relation

21 to other matters, but I want to also say to you that

22 there are at least two witnesses who put you as directly

23 involved in this fracas which resulted in the death of

24 Mr Hamill. You know that?

25 A. I do, yes.

1 Q. Have you any explanation to offer this Inquiry as to why

2 on earth they would have named you as one of those

3 people if it is not true?

4 A. I don't know why they would make something up like that.

5 Q. It is just about the most serious thing you can make up

6 about somebody, isn't it?

7 A. It is, yes.

8 Q. It is outrageous?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Since you found out the name of the person which, as I

11 understand it now is only two weeks ago. Is that right?

12 A. It is, yes.

13 Q. Have you thought about the identity of that person now

14 that you have realised who it was had you in prison for

15 a number of months?

16 A. I haven't, no.

17 Q. You haven't thought about it at all?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why on earth did that person name me? In the last two

20 weeks have you thought about it?

21 A. No.

22 MR ADAIR: Thank you.

23 Questions by MR McGRORY

24 MR McGRORY: Now, Mr Forbes, I want to ask you some

25 questions on behalf of the Hamill family and I make it

1 clear from the outset that any questions that I ask will

2 be from the point of view that those who said you were

3 involved in the murder of Robert Hamill were telling the

4 truth.

5 A. That is lies.

6 Q. I'm just letting you know that that is where I'm coming

7 from in respect of any questions I ask now. You spent

8 some time in prison as a consequence of those

9 allegations, did you not?

10 A. I did, yes.

11 Q. You were very young at the time?

12 A. I was 18, yes.

13 Q. 18. Were you first of all sent to the young offenders

14 centre?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. But you asked to leave the young offenders centre, did

17 you not?

18 A. I did, yes.

19 Q. You made an application to be transferred to the Maze

20 Prison?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Not just anywhere in the Maze Prison. You made an

23 application to be transferred to the UVF wing of the

24 Maze Prison?

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. Why did you do that?

2 A. For my own safety.

3 Q. Did anything occur to you in the young offenders centre

4 that would have threatened your safety?

5 A. It did, yes.

6 Q. What was that?

7 A. Death threats.

8 Q. Death threats?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you report those death threats?

11 A. I did, yes.

12 Q. And in order to avoid any further risk to your safety,

13 the only way out that you could think of was to apply to

14 the Maze Prison?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And in particular the UVF wing?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Why, in particular, the UVF wing?

19 A. I was just -- I was told to do it through a family

20 friend for my own safety.

21 Q. Was there something particular about the UVF wing that

22 would have guaranteed your safety?

23 A. Knowing that I would be safe on their wing.

24 Q. Why would you be safer on the UVF wing as opposed to

25 some other wing within the Maze Prison?

1 A. Because I didn't write down any other wing.

2 Q. Is it because there were people in the UVF wing that you

3 would have felt more comfortable with?

4 A. I can't say honestly say.

5 Q. Well, were the others who were charged alongside you

6 with this offence also in the UVF wing?

7 A. They were, yes.

8 Q. Was Stacey Bridgett in the UVF wing?

9 A. He was, yes.

10 Q. Was Allister Hanvey in the UVF wing?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Was Rory Robinson on the UVF wing?

13 A. No.

14 Q. He wasn't?

15 A. No.

16 Q. But we do know that Stacey Bridgett was there and he was

17 the fellow you were out with that night; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. And we know that Allister Hanvey was there?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Can we take it that during the course of your months in

23 the Maze Prison, you must have discussed this incident?

24 A. That is incorrect.

25 Q. That is incorrect?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So are you suggesting to this Inquiry that over

3 the period of a month you were imprisoned alongside your

4 co-accused in the UVF wing of the Maze Prison and that

5 at no time did you discuss the incident?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. I suggest to you that is simply not true?

8 A. If you want to put that across, you can put it across.

9 Q. Did you not talk to each other about anything at all?

10 A. Just general chats and our visits and stuff like that.

11 Q. So you had opportunity to talk to each other?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And there you are, all innocent people, wrongly accused

14 of a murder that you didn't commit?

15 A. I can just speak for myself.

16 Q. And you don't discuss with each other how you possibly

17 could have ended up there?

18 A. That is correct.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you know they were there arising out of

20 the same matter?

21 A. Yes, we had all got charged together, so we had.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think now, "Ought I to talk to them

23 about it, see what they can tell me?"

24 A. I didn't, no.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Never thought about that?

1 A. I just asked them how they were and stuff because we

2 hadn't seen each other.

3 MR McGRORY: I'm going to suggest to you, Mr Forbes, that it

4 is inconceivable that a number of young people arrested

5 in respect of the same incident, charged with the same

6 murder in the same wing of a prison who converse with

7 each other about this, that and the other don't mention

8 what they were in prison for.

9 A. We didn't mention it.

10 Q. That is a lie, isn't it?

11 A. It is not.

12 Q. We will move on.

13 Now, just in respect of Stacey Bridgett that night,

14 after you left the Land Rover, at the point that you

15 lost track of Stacey Bridgett, he hadn't a bleeding nose

16 at that stage; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. But at some point later, after you have witnessed all

19 these events, you describe witnessing to Mr Underwood

20 earlier, you did meet up with him?

21 A. I did, yes.

22 Q. And Mr Underwood asked you a little while ago if you

23 noticed his bleeding nose. Do you remember him asking

24 you that?

25 A. I do, yes.

1 Q. And you said it had cleared up?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he asked you had there been any discussion about his

4 bleeding nose and you said no?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And a little while later it was pointed out to you that

7 in your interview with the police you did notice his

8 bleeding nose?

9 A. I noticed that he had had a bloody nose.

10 Q. And you said that he had nose bleeds fairly regularly?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Were you not trying to disguise that fact when you spoke

13 to Mr Underwood and said the nose had cleared up and,

14 therefore, there was no discussion?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You did not tell Mr Underwood a lie about that?

17 A. I didn't, no.

18 Q. Because you've accepted now that you did have discussion

19 about his bleeding nose; isn't that correct?

20 A. I did not have a discussion with him, no.

21 Q. When you spoke to Mr Pinfield a number of years ago for

22 this Inquiry, do you remember discussing

23 Stacey Bridgett's bleeding nose?

24 A. I didn't, no.

25 Q. I will tell you what you said to Mr Pinfield about that.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Page number?

2 MR McGRORY: It is page number 34 of his interview with

3 Barnaby Pinfield who interviewed you in 2006 for the

4 purposes of this Inquiry. And he asked you,

5 had you met up with Stacey Bridgett again?

6 Question: "You next encounter Stacey Bridgett further on

7 down the road with a nosebleed. I'm presuming you

8 asked him how he got a nosebleed." And you told him he

9 didn't ask him. You were asked why you didn't ask him

10 and you said it was none of your business. It was put

11 to you that you must have wanted to know whether or not

12 he was involved in the fight and you said you didn't ask

13 him.

14 It was then put to you:

15 "Did you ask if he was all right?"

16 And you said yes, you did ask was he all

17 right.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It was then put to you:

20 "Were you not concerned about his health or his well

21 being?"

22 Answer: "He gets nose bleeds very easily ..."

23 And that as far as you were concerned, you

24 considered that he had just had a nose bleed?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Is that not quite different to what you told

2 Mr Underwood?

3 A. I don't think so, no.

4 Q. You told Mr Underwood there was no discussion about the

5 nosebleed.

6 A. I didn't really have a discussion about his nosebleed,

7 I just asked in general.

8 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you gave one answer to

9 Mr Underwood, and when it was put to you later on that

10 there was previous evidence of a discussion with

11 Mr Bridgett about his nose bleed, you give a different

12 answer?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. Of course we have a slight problem with this

15 conversation because Mr Bridgett said it didn't take

16 place. Are you aware of that?

17 A. I'm not, no.

18 Q. Mr Bridgett told the Inquiry over a week ago that he

19 didn't see you again that night after he left the

20 Land Rover.

21 A. I don't know why he would say that.

22 Q. No.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr McGrory, I may have missed it, but I don't

24 see where he was saying in this interview there was

25 actually a discussion about the nosebleed. He offers

1 an explanation about the nosebleed, but that is the

2 witness himself offering the interviewer his

3 explanation.

4 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir, I'm just revisiting that. May have

5 I have misinterpreted ... Well, what Mr Pinfield did

6 ask you, just in case there is any misunderstanding

7 about this, is if you asked him was he all right, and he

8 said yes.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. I'm suggesting that the reason why you asked him if he

11 was all right is because you had noticed that his nose

12 had been bleeding?

13 A. That is correct, yes.

14 Q. So I'm suggesting to you that that is a suggestion,

15 albeit brief, about the fact that he had had a

16 nosebleed?

17 A. I just asked him was he all right and that was it.

18 Q. Whereas what in fact you told Mr Underwood was that

19 there was no discussion?

20 A. Well, as the Chairman has just said, there wasn't

21 a discussion.

22 Q. I'm suggesting to you that that brief exchange that you

23 accepted occurred was indeed a discussion, albeit in

24 that it was limited --

25 THE CHAIRMAN: We are getting into semantics now.

1 MR McGRORY: Yes. Now, you have also been shown this

2 afternoon a passage from Constable A's statement to the

3 Inquiry, which is at page [11041], about what you were

4 wearing that night.

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Now, it is about in the middle:

7 "I also observed ... he was wearing a multicoloured

8 check shirt tucked into blue jeans and a black jacket.

9 Dean Forbes ... was also in the crowd."

10 Right in the middle that of page.

11 A. I see.

12 Q. You said you had been talking to her for about five

13 minutes?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. But "he was wearing a light coloured check shirt over

16 cream coloured trousers."

17 Do you see that:

18 "He was wearing a light coloured check shirt over

19 cream trousers"?

20 A. I see that.

21 Q. Is that indeed what were wearing?

22 A. It is not, no.

23 Q. Are you saying she is mistaken about that?

24 A. I am, yes. She is right about the top but not the

25 trousers.

1 Q. She was talking to you for about five minutes. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. That is correct, yes.

4 Q. She has also noted that in her notebook, which is at

5 page [09983], that you were wearing a light coloured

6 check shirt over light jeans. That is what she has

7 written in her notebook, Mr Forbes, about what you were

8 wearing that night?

9 A. I was wearing a beige top with black cords.

10 Q. Are you telling us the truth about that?

11 A. I am, yes.

12 Q. Were you concerned about the clothes you were wearing

13 that night?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And whether or not you could be identified by the

16 clothes?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Or whether or not there might have been any forensic

19 traces of your contact with the deceased on those

20 clothes?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you sure about that?

23 A. I am, yes.

24 Q. Did you make any efforts to arrange the evidence in

25 respect of what you were wearing that night?

1 A. I did not, no.

2 Q. When the police called to your house to arrest you, you

3 gave them the black Sonetti trousers. Is that not

4 correct?

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. Did you deliberately give them different trousers to the

7 ones that you were wearing?

8 A. No, they took what they want to take.

9 Q. But you identified them, did you not?

10 A. No, the police identified to me and I handed them

11 clothes out of my wardrobe.

12 Q. You see, if the police were directed by Constable A's

13 note they would be looking for light coloured trousers,

14 would they not?

15 A. I can't know.

16 Q. Did they take any other trousers?

17 A. I can't remember what all they took. They took

18 a bagload of stuff.

19 Q. They don't appear to have taken any other trousers, and

20 certainly when you were interviewed by the police

21 immediately after your arrest, at page [06936], you refer

22 to your clothing and you say:

23 "What I gave yous at my house, a beige colour

24 Ralph Lauren shirt and the dark Sonetti trousers."

25 So you directed the police to those trousers, did

1 you not?

2 A. I didn't, no.

3 Q. Can you explain why they only took one pair of dark

4 trousers?

5 A. I can't say.

6 Q. Can you explain why you referred in your interview that

7 you had given them the trousers?

8 A. They asked what clothes I was wearing that night and

9 I told them.

10 Q. Exactly. So they only took the black Sonetti trousers

11 because you identified them as the trousers you were

12 wearing that night?

13 A. No, that is incorrect.

14 Q. If they asked you what clothes --

15 A. It was in the interview when I was being questioned they

16 asked me what I was wearing that night.

17 Q. And you said:

18 "The trousers I gave yous"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So I'm suggesting you directed them to the trousers?

21 A. No, they opened my wardrobe and asked me to take out my

22 clothes of what I was wearing that night. So I handed

23 them to them.

24 Q. Is that not in fact what I'm suggesting to you: that you

25 directed them to the pair of trousers that were taken?

1 A. They were going to take everything out of the wardrobe

2 anyway.

3 Q. They didn't take any other trousers, did they?

4 A. That's for the police to answer.

5 Q. Are you now refusing to accept that you directed them to

6 the black trousers?

7 A. I'm not saying I didn't direct them to them. I'm just

8 saying what was in my wardrobe I gave them.

9 Q. Had you not other pairs of trousers in the wardrobe?

10 A. I had, yes.

11 Q. Why did you give them those?

12 A. Ask the police why they didn't take any other stuff.

13 Q. I'm suggesting, Mr Forbes, that you directed them to

14 a particular pair of dark trousers?

15 A. That's incorrect.

16 Q. And I'm also suggesting to you that they were not the

17 trousers that you were wearing that night?

18 A. That's incorrect.

19 Q. You were going out with Linda Jane Boyle at the time; is

20 that correct?

21 A. I was, yes.

22 Q. Are you still in a relationship with Linda Boyle?

23 A. I am not, no.

24 Q. Do you remember suggesting to Linda Boyle that she speak

25 to somebody else about what you were wearing?

1 A. I don't, no.

2 Q. Sorry, I'm asking you do you remember a conversation you

3 had with Linda Boyle when she visited you in prison

4 about your clothing that night?

5 A. She didn't visit me in prison.

6 Q. Can I have page [59234] on the screen, please? Now,

7 I want to re-ask you the question. It wasn't a visit in

8 prison but it was a conversation you had with

9 Linda Boyle in your house before you were arrested?

10 A. That's incorrect.

11 Q. She says:

12 "I went to Dean's house and he told me he had been

13 arrested for being involved in the disturbance on

14 27/28 April..."

15 A. It was a phone call.

16 Q. She says she went to your house. Do you see that?

17 A. Well, it must have been on a different occasion.

18 Q. "I cannot remember exactly what he said, but what I do

19 recall is that he said he'd still been in bed when the police

20 came to arrest him. The police had taken his clothes

21 and that he and Stacey Bridgett had whistled to each other

22 whilst in the cells."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. I do, yes.

25 Q. "Dean asked me if I would go into school and speak to

1 Jill Ritchie."

2 Did you do that?

3 A. I did not, no.

4 Q. "I was to ask Jill is she'd seen Dean. I was told to

5 tell Jill what clothing Dean had been wearing on the

6 night of the incident..."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. I do, yes.

9 Q. "... but I cannot recall the particular item of clothing he

10 mentioned now. He didn't ask me to say anything else."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. So Linda Boyle told the police on 10 September 1997 that

14 you had asked her to speak to Jill Ritchie about what

15 you were wearing that night?

16 A. That is incorrect.

17 Q. In fact what she says is you asked her to ask

18 Jill Ritchie to give a false alibi for you.

19 A. That's incorrect.

20 Q. Why would Linda Boyle make that up?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. No reason?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. So a young woman has told the police in September 1997

25 that you asked her to help her with a false alibi about

1 clothing, if that is a correct term, and you cannot

2 think of any reason why she would do that?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You don't know?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Can we have page [09615] on the screen, please? This is

7 a statement Jill Ritchie made to the police. Now, do

8 you know Jill Ritchie?

9 A. I don't, no.

10 Q. Well, in this statement Jill Ritchie recounts how

11 Linda Boyle did approach her. On the bottom of the

12 page:

13 "She was alone when she approached me and she appeared

14 visibly upset."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. I do, yes.

17 Q. "I knew Linda Boyle was the girlfriend of Dean Forbes."

18 That much was correct; is that right?

19 A. It is, yes.

20 Q. "She asked me if she could have a word with me and I

21 said yes. Both of us moved away to the side of the

22 corridor and she said, 'Dean is in a lot of trouble with

23 this thing that has happened'."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. I do, yes.

1 Q. "She then said, 'Did you see him that night because he

2 seen you?'"

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "I then said, 'Where?' She said, 'Apparently up the

6 town'. I replied [Jill Ritchie], 'No, I didn't see

7 him'. She then said, 'Do you know what he was

8 wearing?'"

9 Do you see all of that?

10 A. I do, yes.

11 Q. So this is Jill Ritchie recounting how Linda Boyle did

12 approach her?

13 A. I don't know of anything of this happened, so I don't

14 know.

15 Q. And then Jill Ritchie said:

16 "She went on to say that he was wearing a cream

17 Ralph Lauren shirt with black jeans."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. I do, yes.

20 Q. So are you suggesting that both of these girls are

21 lying?

22 A. Who is suggesting that I'm wearing --

23 Q. Let's get this clear. What this scenario is is that

24 Linda Boyle told the police that you asked her to speak

25 to Jill Ritchie to give a description of your clothing?

1 A. That's incorrect.

2 Q. Yes, you have denied that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As it happens, Jill Ritchie also independently says that

5 Linda Boyle did approach her?

6 A. I'm not saying she didn't approach her. I just don't

7 know where this has come from.

8 Q. I'm suggesting that Linda Boyle approached her because

9 you asked her to?

10 A. That's incorrect.

11 Q. And that you were concerned about your clothing?

12 A. That is incorrect.

13 Q. Because lo and behold, what Linda Boyle told

14 Jill Ritchie to say is that you were wearing a Ralph

15 Lauren shirt with black jeans?

16 A. I can see that yes.

17 Q. Yes, and the implication being that it was black jeans

18 that you identified to the police as the jeans you were

19 wearing that night?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And I'm suggesting to you in fact you were wearing

22 a different pair of jeans?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And that you went to quite extreme lengths to hide that

25 fact. Is that not what happened, Mr Forbes?

1 A. That's incorrect.

2 Q. Now, you have also been asked by Mr Underwood about your

3 attendance at the gathering in Tracy McAlpine's house?

4 A. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. And you said you didn't go in?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. But you lived near it, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, not too far away.

9 Q. And I think you told the police that you had -- I think

10 you had gone home. You had called at the house, there

11 was nobody there?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You had gone home -- this is about half two in the

14 morning, mind?

15 A. I can't say what time it was, but ...

16 Q. You waited around, you took a notion to go back again?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you went to the door and this is around about five

19 o'clock?

20 A. Probably, yes.

21 Q. But you didn't go in?

22 A. That is incorrect, yes -- sorry, I thought you had said

23 did they go in.

24 Q. You see there are a number of people who put you in that

25 house, Mr Forbes?

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. Quite a number of people. I'm just going to list them

3 for you. There is Pauline Newell, who puts you there at

4 5 am, there's Kelly Lavery. Do you know her?

5 A. I know her to see, yes.

6 Q. She puts you there as well. Tracey Clarke. You knew

7 Tracey Clarke?

8 A. Yes, to see.

9 Q. She puts you there. Jason McClure, he also puts you

10 there. Do you know Jason McClure?

11 A. I don't, no.

12 Q. And he puts you there along with Allister Hanvey?

13 A. That is incorrect.

14 Q. Tracy McAlpine, she remembers you there?

15 A. That's because I spoke to her at the front door.

16 Q. Stephen Sinnamon. He put you there. Do you remember

17 Stephen Sinnamon?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why would all of those people put you in the party if

20 you weren't there inside the house?

21 A. Because I'm usually there on a Saturday night.

22 Q. You think they have all just got mixed up?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On this particular Saturday night?

25 A. I do, yes.

1 Q. They are all interviewed in the immediate aftermath of

2 this remarkable event. You agree it was a remarkable

3 event?

4 A. I'm not going to answer something like that.

5 Q. Why wouldn't you agree with that simple proposition,

6 Mr Forbes?

7 A. I don't think it's something you can say was remarkable.

8 What are you saying about remarkable?

9 Q. This wasn't an ordinary Saturday night in Portadown,

10 was it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. A man was murdered that night?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. And you were accused of his murder?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And you spent some time in prison?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. That is a Saturday night that you would rather remember?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That's all I meant by remarkable. Now, you would accept

21 that it was an unusual Saturday?

22 A. It was, yes. Thank you.

23 Q. So all of these people put you inside the house?

24 A. But that is what they say, yes.

25 Q. Is it the case, Mr Forbes, that you were outside the

1 house and that you were talking to the others with whom

2 you subsequently applied to share a prison wing with,

3 that you were talking in the party about the events that

4 had just happened?

5 A. Incorrect.

6 Q. Do you know Andrew Allen?

7 A. I know of him.

8 Q. You know of him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Page [07353], please. This is his interview with the

11 police at the time of his arrest a few weeks after these

12 events, and he has been asked, Mr Forbes, about the

13 gathering in Tracy McAlpine's house. He is asked who

14 was there:

15 "There was myself there obviously, the girl that owned the

16 house, I believe Stephen Sinnamon was there. Tracey Clarke was there."

17 Question: "Hanvey?"

18 Answer: "Allister Hanvey, yes."

19 Question: "Dean Forbes?"

20 Answer: "Yes."

21 He puts you there?

22 A. He would have been there every other Saturday evening.

23 Q. How do you know that?

24 A. Because if I'd been in the house on a Saturday night I

25 would have seen people that had been there.

1 Q. Didn't you just tell us a moment ago that you barely

2 knew him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you saying you and he would have been frequently in

5 that house on Saturday nights?

6 A. I would have seen him on a random Saturday night, yes,

7 sir.

8 Q. Well, it's hardly a big house, is it?

9 A. It is not, no.

10 Q. Do you not agree that those young people who gathered in

11 Tracy's house on Saturday night would at least have

12 known each other reasonably well?

13 A. Not all of us, no.

14 Q. But you are fit to say that Mr Allen would have been

15 regularly there?

16 A. Not regularly, but a random Saturday night, yes, sir.

17 He would have been there.

18 Q. And you would have been there on other Saturday nights?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it not the case that you knew Andrew Allen reasonably

21 well?

22 A. No, I just knew of him.

23 Q. At least from your not infrequent gatherings in

24 Tracy McAlpine's house on Saturday night?

25 A. He knew a few people who were there, but there would

100

1 have been people there that you wouldn't have knew.

2 Q. If you go over the page, [07354], Mr Allen was asked:

3 "Was this fight discussed in the house?

4 Answer: "I heard, yes."

5 Question: "What did you hear?"

6 Answer: "I heard that somebody hit somebody with

7 a bottle."

8 Question: "Who was saying this now?"

9 Answer: "I just -- I didn't want anything

10 to do with it."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. So Mr Allen told the police that he was in the house and

14 you were in the house and that the fight was being

15 discussed?

16 A. That is incorrect.

17 Q. Mr Allen has told a lie about that; is that right?

18 A. I wasn't in the house. He was in the house, but I don't

19 know.

20 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr Forbes, that this is a load of

21 nonsense you are telling us?

22 A. That is incorrect.

23 Q. Too many people put you in this house on that particular

24 night for it to be a coincidence. Is that not correct?

25 A. It is untrue.

101

1 Q. And your entire evidence to this Inquiry this afternoon

2 has been a fabrication?

3 A. Untrue.

4 Q. What Tracey Clarke said about you was correct?

5 A. It's incorrect.

6 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions.

7 MS DINSMORE: I have just one question.

8 Questions by MS DINSMORE

9 MS DINSMORE: You are at the back of the Land Rover?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And my friend Mr Adair has already explored with you the

12 police personnel present. Now, was Stacey Bridgett with

13 you at that stage?

14 A. When I backed off to the Land Rover?

15 Q. No, you are at the door of the Land Rover and you move

16 round to the back of the Land Rover?

17 A. When I was at the door, yes, he was at the door.

18 Q. And could you just explain your movements from the door

19 of the Land Rover? Tell me about the next six steps you

20 took?

21 A. I backed out -- I backed off on to the

22 Alliance & Leicester where the --

23 Q. So are you telling me that you just moved towards

24 a building, away from the Land Rover and you were not

25 moving upwards?

102

1 A. I was moving in the direction of the

2 Alliance & Leicester, which is up towards the

3 Abbey National.

4 Q. Did you make it to the back of the Land Rover then?

5 A. That would be where the back of the Land Rover would be.

6 Q. Yes, and can you tell us exactly what you say you

7 observed when you got to the back of the Land Rover?

8 A. I could see a fight going on.

9 Q. But that was the first time you were aware of a fight?

10 A. No, I could see a row going on between the doors --

11 Q. So the answer to that is yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, can you tell me, did your friend Stacey Bridgett

14 accompany you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Oh, so does he just stay standing at the passenger door

17 the Land Rover?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You don't know?

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. After you were told to back off, can you remember what

22 Stacey Bridgett did at all?

23 A. I don't know where he went after that.

24 Q. So even though you had spent the sojourn up the town

25 with him and such like, you didn't even say, "Look, I'm

103

1 getting offside here, Stacey, I'm away, are you coming?"

2 Did you not speak to him at all?

3 A. I looked for him, but I couldn't see where he had gone.

4 Q. You are standing with him at the back of the Land Rover.

5 I'm not asking you about when you get to the --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Forgive me, that is a premise he doesn't

7 accept: that they were together at the back of

8 Land Rover.

9 MS DINSMORE: I apologise. You walked up the town with

10 Stacey Bridgett?

11 A. That is incorrect. Are you saying I walked up the town?

12 I walked up the town on my own. You mean from the

13 bottom of the town?

14 Q. Yes, from the bottom of the town. This is pre-the

15 Land Rover. So you had a companion and the companion

16 was Stacey Bridgett?

17 A. That is true, yes.

18 Q. And then for whatever reason you and Stacey Bridgett

19 cross over to the Land Rover?

20 A. That's true.

21 Q. Did you go together to the Land Rover?

22 A. We did, yes.

23 Q. And where did you go when you got to the Land Rover?

24 A. To the passenger side door.

25 Q. Was Stacey Bridgett still with you?

104

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there was a discussion with the two police officers

3 in the front of the vehicle?

4 A. That is true.

5 Q. But you don't recall any conversation with four police

6 officers?

7 A. No.

8 Q. But you have a clear recall of conversation with two

9 police officers at the front of the vehicle?

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. Now, was Stacey Bridgett with you?

12 A. He was, yes.

13 Q. Was he with you all of that time?

14 A. He was for a while, yes.

15 Q. Now, for a while, are you telling us now --

16 A. For the five minutes that we were at the door, yes, he

17 was with me.

18 Q. So at no time were you at the door of this Land Rover

19 without your friend Stacey Bridgett with you?

20 A. That is true.

21 Q. Yes, and then the next thing that happens is that you

22 and Stacey Bridgett are told to back off and get on?

23 A. That is true, yes.

24 Q. Yes. Now, you can remember clearly those words that

25 were spoken and it appears that certainly when you gave

105

1 your interviews you had a recall about the nature of the

2 conversations that were going on between yourselves and

3 the police officers. I now want you to tell me what you

4 remember about the words spoken between you and

5 Stacey Bridgett subsequent or immediately after the

6 policewoman telling you and Stacey Bridgett to go on

7 home?

8 A. I don't recall having a conversation with him.

9 Q. You don't recall?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you don't say good bye?

12 A. No, just when the police officer said to back off up the

13 town, I just backed off.

14 Q. On your own?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know if he stood on?

17 A. I don't know, no.

18 Q. Did you just, like, hotfoot it away from him in fear?

19 A. No, I just walked off.

20 Q. You I did say, "See you, mate, are you coming?"

21 A. I thought he was with me. I just walked off.

22 Q. You thought he was with you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So on thinking that your friend who you'd been with was

25 with you, then when did you discover he wasn't with you?

106

1 A. When I got to the Abbey National.

2 Q. That is not terribly far away. When you got to the

3 Abbey National did you look round and say, "Where is our

4 Stacey?"

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. And he had just disappeared?

7 A. I couldn't see him, no.

8 Q. Are you saying he just simply disappeared?

9 A. I just couldn't see --

10 Q. Are you say saying then that you and Stacey Bridgett

11 were never together at the back of the Land Rover?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Never?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Tell us what you can remember about the back of the Land

16 Rover?

17 A. I can't really remember anything from the back of the

18 Land Rover.

19 Q. Except you seem to remember?

20 A. You mean there was a fight going on across the street?

21 Q. No, I'm asking about the specific back of the

22 Land Rover, what you remember. Is the only thing that

23 you remember, "I remember two policemen, but not four,

24 not the four that I referred to in the early days"?

25 A. I don't recall the back of Land Rover.

107

1 Q. So you lose Stacey Bridgett. You do would it be fair to

2 say a cursory look for him or did you think you were

3 making a detailed look for him?

4 A. I looked round to see if he was behind me and I couldn't

5 see him.

6 Q. When you got to the Alliance & Leicester, what did

7 you do?

8 A. I just walked on up the street.

9 Q. Did you stop at the Alliance & Leicester?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So basically all you are doing in relation to the

12 Alliance & Leicester is saying it is a point upon your

13 journey?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. A journey without Stacey Bridgett and without knowledge

16 of what happened to him?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. Then you get to at number of flower beds?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. At the flower beds, what did you do?

21 A. I was standing at the flower beds for about five or ten

22 minutes.

23 Q. Tell us why you stood at the flower beds?

24 A. It is just where I had stopped to turn round.

25 Q. Why did you stop when you were told to go home and that

108

1 you immediately took the bidding and you abandoned, or

2 at least left, your friend to do it? Why did you stop

3 and stand? Five minutes is a long time in a fight,

4 isn't it?

5 A. I stopped and turned round to see if I could see Stacey,

6 and I couldn't see him.

7 Q. Right. Was that the first time you started to look for

8 him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you walked past the Alliance & Leicester, so it

11 doesn't occur to you to glance behind to see if my

12 Stacey's with me until you get to the flower beds?

13 A. That's true, yes.

14 Q. So at the flower beds you stand for five minutes?

15 A. That's true.

16 Q. And there's not a sight or sound of him?

17 A. I couldn't see him, no.

18 Q. Tell us who you did see?

19 A. The two Bowles sisters.

20 Q. Did you see anybody else?

21 A. No.

22 Q. My friend Mr Underwood raised with you: did not see this

23 Ducko?

24 A. This wasn't at the flower beds.

25 Q. No, I'm not asking about who else was at the flower

109

1 beds, whatever -- the rendezvous at the flower beds is

2 one thing. What I'm interested in is what you could

3 observe from your station at the flower beds. Now,

4 could you tell me what you could observe, namely who

5 could you observe?

6 A. The only two people I could see at the flower beds were

7 the two Bowles sisters.

8 Q. I'm sorry if I'm making myself unclear, I'm asking you

9 when you're standing at the flower beds, who did you see

10 when you looked down the street?

11 A. I could see a fight going on.

12 Q. I'm asking to you identify persons that you observed

13 down the street.

14 A. I can see two people lying on the road.

15 Q. See two people lying -- is that the first time you saw

16 them?

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. So there was no question of you noticing them before you

19 stood for five minutes at the flower beds?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Right. Did you see any other, particular individuals?

22 A. Well, as you put across to Mr Underwood there that

23 I seen Ducko Blevins.

24 Q. Yes. Did you see him?

25 A. When I was further back from the flower beds.

110

1 Q. So you have a second view?

2 A. Yes, because I said that I stopped off at the Summer

3 Seats.

4 Q. So you go from the flower beds and then up further

5 towards the church?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. And is that the first time that you observed

8 identifiable persons?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Right. So further back, however, you are able to

11 identify persons. Now, tell us who you identified?

12 A. I could identify Ducko Blevins because I could see his

13 face.

14 Q. Was there any other individual that you could identify?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Could you tell us where Donald Blevins was?

17 A. I think it was Dorothy Perkins.

18 Q. Right. Back away from it and in fact what you have said

19 is:

20 "No, Ducko was standing about wherever, you know,

21 the fight was going on. He was standing back from it at

22 Dorothy Perkins, so he was."

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. Did you in seeing that identify then that if you were

25 placed at Dorothy Perkins you were placed in proximity

111

1 to the fight?

2 A. That's incorrect.

3 Q. Well, tell me the correct --

4 A. From where I was standing at the summer seats I could

5 see Ducko Blevins.

6 Q. Yes, are you saying he wasn't there?

7 A. No, he wasn't involved in the fighting, no.

8 Q. He was standing back from it at Dorothy Perkins?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you still had no idea where Stacey Bridgett had

11 gone?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. When did you cease looking for him? Was it when he

14 turned up with the bloody nose?

15 A. When the police started to force everybody up the town,

16 you were just more or less getting pushed up in the

17 direction of the top of the town. So I was just for

18 heading on home.

19 Q. I thought you were heading on home as soon as the

20 policewoman told you to go on, back off, head on home?

21 A. I was heading in that direction. I live up that

22 direction.

23 Q. But you weren't leaving it with a sense of purpose of

24 getting straight towards home when you stopped by the

25 flower beds for five minutes, and then you stop on up

112

1 a bit and look round and observe Ducko at Dorothy

2 Perkins and then you're caught up in the crowd being

3 pushed forward; isn't that right?

4 A. That is correct, yes.

5 Q. So I too have to suggest to you that much of your

6 evidence here today is complete fabrication.

7 A. That's untrue.

8 MS DINSMORE: Thank you.

9 Questions by MR O'CONNOR

10 MR O'CONNOR: Just one point, Mr Chairman. Mr Forbes, do

11 you remember if you were asked if you would go on an

12 identification parade?

13 A. I do, yes.

14 Q. What was your answer to that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why did you say no to it?

17 A. Well, I didn't know who it was going to be. If it was

18 the policewoman, she knew me anyway. So she was hardly

19 going to pick out somebody else.

20 Q. Could we have [07118]. The last two paragraphs:

21 "Have you any objection to going on an

22 identification parade?"

23 Then the next words are:

24 "Now he is looking at me."

25 That's from your solicitor. Is that right?

113

1 A. That is right.

2 Q. Who was your solicitor?

3 A. Richard Montieth.

4 Q. That was the interview on 10 May 1997 with officers DC Keys

5 and P37. By the end of that interview there was some

6 discussion about an identification parade between the

7 officers and your solicitor. Is that right?

8 A. I think so, yes.

9 Q. And that he advised you in relation to what you could or

10 couldn't do that in relation to --

11 A. He asked him for his advice.

12 Q. Did he give you advice?

13 A. He answered the question.

14 MR O'CONNOR: Thank you.

15 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, sir.

16 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this. During the

18 few minutes when you were standing at the Land Rover

19 chatting with two people in front of it, did either of

20 them say, "Look, sorry, we can't talk now we are on

21 duty"?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Or anything like that?

24 A. No.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

114

1 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Forbes.

2 A. Thank you very much.

3 (4.40 pm)

4 (Short break)

5 (5.05 pm)

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Andrew Allen, please.

7 MR ANDREW ALLEN (affirmed)

8 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good evening, Mr Allen. Sorry to have kept

10 you so long.

11 A. That is all right.

12 Q. My name is Underwood and I'm Counsel to the Inquiry.

13 I've got questions for you to start with. Can I ask you

14 your full names, please?

15 A. Andrew Allen.

16 Q. On the night of 26 April going into the morning of

17 27 April 1997, I know you were in the centre of

18 Portadown. Were you coming from where the Coach bus

19 dropped you off?

20 A. I would have been coming from the coach that night, yes.

21 Q. If we look at the map that is in front of us, other

22 witnesses have told us that the bus from the Coach Inn

23 dropped people off at around where that cluster of

24 letters is, A,B and C, towards the top right-hand

25 corner. Is that your recollection?

115

1 A. Truthfully I'm not sure where we were dropped off that night,

2 now. I just honestly don't know.

3 Q. All right. Did you walk from there onwards?

4 A. I have obviously come up the town. It is, like,

5 12 years ago. I'm trying to remember all that is

6 just -- it is impossible. No, obviously I have come

7 from the Coach and I have obviously come up through the

8 town then, yes.

9 Q. Let me put some documents to you just to see if we can

10 help your memory.

11 A. Sure, yes.

12 Q. There came a point where there was a fight or an attack

13 that took place around the area of the crossroads where

14 Woodhouse Street and Thomas Street meet the main roads

15 there.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. And we know that there were police involved at some

18 point in that and that there was eventually a pushing

19 back of a number of Protestants by the police up towards

20 West Street. Now, does any of that --

21 A. No, I can't remember any of that, you now, no.

22 Q. Right. Let me put to you page [01038] and see if we can

23 help with that. Can we have that up on the screen?

24 This is a letter written by a man who lived down in

25 Thomas Street by the British Legion and what he says

116

1 here is:

2 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two

3 ladies walking in the direction the town centre from the

4 fire station. One lady said not to walk any further as

5 a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery, to

6 which the man replied, 'This is a free country and I'll

7 walk where the f*** I like'. At this he shouted to the fellas,

8 'Do you want a fight?' This was shouted about two,

9 maybe three, times before the crowd at the bakery

10 responded. Then from this, both sides started provoking

11 each other. The man that had been doing most of the

12 talking then walked out to the middle of road, placing

13 his bottle on the ground. He raised his hands into the

14 air, he waved as he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'.

15 Eventually, one man stepped out from the crowd at the

16 bakery and shouted, 'I'll take you then'. At this

17 point, the ladies that were with the two men shouted for

18 them to stop and walk home, but the provoking became

19 worse until both men were about a foot away and sizing

20 each other up with not one ready to throw a punch until

21 another man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran

22 between them both and punched the one facing the town,

23 ran off in the direction of the

24 St Mark's church. The one who received the blow to his

25 face then punched the one who was sizing up to him and

117

1 ran after the man who had thrown the first punch. Then

2 one by one, the crowd started to run in the direction of

3 the fight being followed by the man and both ladies

4 who'd been with the person who started the provocation.

5 "The police tried to break up the small crowd

6 without siding with either side, trying to calm the

7 situation. But having no success, they had to call for

8 more police to control the crowd. Two cars pulled into

9 the middle of town, one marked car and an unmarked

10 Sierra. The police then ran in the direction of

11 St Mark's church. One man was then brought to the

12 Land Rover and placed inside until the fight died down.

13 The ambulance arrived and stretchered one man away."

14 So what he is describing -- this is a gentleman who

15 came to give evidence here -- is that there were a group

16 of people who were Catholics walking down Thomas Street

17 and at around the British Legion area, they start

18 concerning themselves with a group that are standing up

19 by Number 7 bakery at the end of the Thomas Street.

20 There is provocation at distance between the two groups.

21 The Catholics move up towards the bakery where there is

22 squaring up. One of the Protestants who is at the

23 bakery punches one of the Catholics. That Catholic then

24 punches one of the Protestants and off it goes.

25 Now, do you recall any of that?

118

1 A. No.

2 Q. If we look then at what David Woods says about that, we

3 see it at page [07495]. Sorry, go over to page [07496] in

4 fact. This is an interview he had with the police, and

5 he says in the middle of it:

6 "I was walking up the town, I turned up ..."

7 That is Thomas Street blanked out:

8 "... to go home and on into it because I live

9 down --" and asked "Yes? that's where Jameson's Bar is?"

10 He said, "Yes, I was walking up past Jameson's bar."

11 Question: "On the same side of the street as

12 Jameson's bar?"

13 Answer: "Yes."

14 Question: [07497] "Okay."

15 Answer: "And I heard people shouting, 'You Orange

16 bastard'. That was the sound as I came up from the

17 town."

18 Question: "Did this come from behind you or in

19 front of you?"

20 Answer: "This was coming from in front of me."

21 Question: "So these people were actually coming

22 down Thomas Street to meet you?"

23 Answer: "They were at, outside the Legion bar. I was

24 outside Jameson's bar."

25 Question: "Right and what did you hear them saying?"

119

1 Answer: "'Orange bastards. Up the IRA.'"

2 Question: "Right. Who was saying this or how many

3 people were in this group?"

4 Answer: "There was about three fellows and two

5 girls."

6 Question: "... Did you know any of [them] ... ?"

7 Answer: [07498] "No."

8 Question: "You didn't. Right. Were they directing

9 that comment at you?"

10 Answer: "Yes."

11 Question: "And what happened?"

12 Answer: "I stood there."

13 Question: "You stopped?"

14 Answer: "I stopped. I was afraid."

15 Question: "You were afraid. Were you going to have

16 to pass them?"

17 Answer: "Yes."

18 So the position is that he is giving a version which

19 is somewhat consistent with that letter I showed you,

20 where he is, in this case on his own, waiting for these

21 Catholics to come up. They are shouting sectarian

22 things at him and they assault him. Now, does that ring

23 any bells with you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. If we have a look at page [07305], this is an interview

120

1 you had with the police and bottom quarter of it:

2 Question: "So you got off the bus?"

3 Answer: "Yes."

4 Question: "And you were with Rory ..."

5 That's Rory Robinson:

6 "... and David?"

7 That is David Woods:

8 "... They were in your company as such, that is

9 you who were with that night?

10 Answer: "Yes."

11 Question: "Now just go through it slowly. You got off

12 the bus?"

13 Answer: "I got off the bus. There was a big crowd.

14 I don't know, they must have went to Boss Hogg's to get

15 something to eat. All I wanted to do was go home and

16 that was the truth. I just walked on up the town."

17 Question: "You walked up the town?"

18 Answer: "Yes, then I got caught up in the fight."

19 Question: "Now, which end of the street did you go

20 up? You get out of the bus at which side of the car

21 park?"

22 Answer: "The left-hand side."

23 Question: "You walked up the left-hand side?"

24 Answer: "Yes, up the left-hand side."

25 Question: "Now, just go through it as best you can,

121

1 the exact sequence of events as far as you can remember

2 them now. Where did you meet Rory and David there? Did

3 you walk up the street on your own?"

4 Answer: "... I was behind them."

5 Question: "You were behind them?"

6 Answer: "They had stopped just at the corner of

7 Thomas Street, as I have said."

8 Question: "Yes."

9 Answer: "And I stopped there with them waiting on

10 the crowd to catch up, you know, behind and then --"

11 Question: "Were you actually waiting on to catch up

12 anybody in particular?"

13 Answer: "No... just to see if there was anything

14 happening, you know, a party or anything."

15 Question: [07308] "So you were still at Thomas Street

16 there, the junction of Thomas Street waiting for them?"

17 Answer: "That's right, yes."

18 Question: "Did you see the police Land Rover?"

19 Answer: "No."

20 Question: "Across the street at any stage?"

21 Answer: "No."

22 Question: "Then what happened?"

23 Answer: "As I said, I heard people shouting up

24 Thomas Street but I paid no attention to it because I

25 just caught it was someone coming out of Jameson's or

122

1 the legion or something."

2 Question: "Yes."

3 Answer: "As I thought they were walking on past,

4 but then ..."

5 Question: [07309] "How many people did you see then,

6 whenever you eventually see people walking down

7 Thomas Street? What did you actually see?"

8 Answer: "I seen a few girls."

9 Question: "How many is a few?"

10 Answer: "I would say there was three or four, and there

11 was three or four fellows too."

12 Question: "Walking down Thomas Street?"

13 Answer: "Yes."

14 Question: "In a group or split up, or what way?"

15 Answer: "No, they were all in a group."

16 Question: "All together?"

17 Answer: "Yes."

18 Question: "So they came down Thomas Street past

19 where you were standing?"

20 Answer: [07310] "Yes."

21 Question: "You were standing at the top of

22 Thomas Street?"

23 Answer: "Yes. The girls were in front now. They walked on past."

24 Question: "They walked on past?"

25 Answer: "Yes, that's right."

123

1 Question: "And where did they walk to?"

2 Answer: "I don't know. I was just standing."

3 Question: "Did they walk down the main street?"

4 Answer: "No, they walked past me. They just walked

5 on past."

6 Question: "On to the main street?"

7 Answer: "On to the, yes on to the road, across the street."

8 Going over the page [07311], second line:

9 Question: "Where were they heading then, in the

10 direction of Woodhouse Street?"

11 Answer: "They were heading across that way."

12 Question: "And then what happened then? The boys appeared,

13 then what happened?"

14 Answer: "Well the boys, they just pulled up about

15 level with us. I thought they were walking on past and

16 they turned round and they hit David Woods who was just

17 standing in front of me."

18 Question: "Was there anything said?"

19 Answer: "No."

20 Question: "And how many people hit David Woods?"

21 Answer: "It was just the one."

22 Question: "One fellow?"

23 Answer: [07312] "Yes."

24 Question: "What did he look like? Can you

25 remember."

124

1 And you go through that. Halfway down the page.

2 Question: "He punched David Woods. That's what happened?"

4 Answer: "Yes, that's right."

5 Question: "Then what happened?"

6 Answer: "There was another boy who went across the

7 road and Rory Robinson just -- he was standing just at

8 the edge of Eastwoods there... And the two, he started

9 throwing punches at him and them two started fighting and

10 somebody came at me."

11 Question: "I will just stall you there. Where was

12 David Woods whenever he was?"

13 Answer: "He was just standing at the corner there."

14 Then going down three paragraphs from the bottom:

15 Question: "And then what happened?

16 The other boy was hit, then what happened?"

18 Answer: "There was a boy who came with me and

19 I backed off into the middle of road."

20 Question: "So you have three fellows?"

21 Answer: [07314] "That's right, yes."

22 Question: "Who individually, one hit David Woods,

23 one hit the other fellow and one hit you?" And that is

24 basically what you accept.

25 So in that interview then, what the police are

125

1 putting to you is that you were standing at the top and

2 they were asking you what happened. Your version was

3 there you are with David Woods and with Rory Robinson,

4 you are all standing there waiting for people to catch

5 you up and Catholics walk up, the girls go past, the men

6 stop and all three of you are attacked by individual

7 Catholics. Now, does that ring any bells?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How is it that doesn't ring any bells?

10 A. As I says, my memory of that whole night -- sorry,

11 I have nothing really that I can remember about that

12 night. I know what I said back then and that is

13 obviously what I'm going by.

14 Q. Did you tell the truth to the police when they

15 interviewed you?

16 A. I'm sure I would have, yes.

17 Q. And was your memory of it all right when they

18 interviewed you?

19 A. It would have been a short time after that, so, yes.

20 Q. And if we look at page [07617], this is an interview with

21 Rory Robinson about the same time as your interview in

22 May 1997, after the second "Robinson" on the passage,

23 there is a question:

24 Question: "You hadn't stopped after getting off the

25 bus?"

126

1 Answer: "No."

2 Question: "How long did it take you, five/ten

3 minutes walking up that length, would it?"

4 Answer: "Up and down?"

5 Question: "Yes."

6 Answer: "Yes, I suppose so."

7 Question: "Whenever you were passing the end of

8 Thomas Street, what did you see?"

9 Answer: "Not a thing."

10 Question: "Not a thing? Was there many about?"

11 Answer: "Not that I seen."

12 Question: "Are you saying that you were the only

13 one on the street then at that time walking past the end

14 of Thomas Street?"

15 Answer: "It is just -- because I never seen anybody

16 else, like."

17 So he is denying, in a police interview in May 1997,

18 any involvement at all in any scrap at the top of

19 Thomas Street despite the fact that you were telling the

20 police, as you say, truly that he and Mr Woods and you

21 were all attacked by these Catholics.

22 Now, the Panel may well think that Mr woods was

23 denying being with the three of you because he doesn't

24 want to be thought to have been in a gang trying to beat

25 up the Catholics, and Mr Robinson is denying involvement

127

1 at all for the same reason. Now, what would you say to

2 that?

3 A. I truthfully cannot answer for them. I don't know what

4 their thinking is behind it or what their story is.

5 I just couldn't answer for them.

6 Q. Is the real truth here that the three of you walked up

7 the street, you saw Catholics coming up Thomas Street,

8 you knew very well there was a large body of Protestants

9 coming up behind you from the likes of Boss Hoggs and

10 you thought you would have a crack at these Catholics

11 knowing full well there were reinforcements just behind

12 you?

13 A. No, I would not have thought that.

14 Q. Is the truth as set out in that letter, that there was

15 provocation, that in fact it is one of the Protestants

16 that struck the first blow and that it all caught on

17 from there?

18 A. As I say, I can't remember back to then. I can only

19 look at what I said back in 1997.

20 Q. And we know you were arrested for murder?

21 A. I was questioned, yes.

22 Q. Arrested?

23 A. Arrested, yes.

24 Q. Did that stick in the mind?

25 A. It would have, yes.

128

1 Q. How was it you have forgotten all this?

2 A. It is the events that night. As I say, it is 12 years

3 ago. The only thing that I can say about the whole

4 being arrested thing, I know that it happened and it is

5 a feeling that sticks with you.

6 Q. You were known as Fonzy, weren't you?

7 A. At the time, yes.

8 Q. Can we look at page [00268]? This is a statement of

9 somebody called Timothy Jameson. Did you know him?

10 A. I would have, yes.

11 Q. If we pick this up on the second line:

12 "I couldn't see who he ..."

13 That is Rory Robinson:

14 "... was fighting with. Rory was wearing cream

15 coloured jeans. I then heard a bottle smashing. I was

16 standing in the middle of the fight. I looked around

17 and I saw Allister Hanvey kick and punch this fellow who

18 was lying on the ground. This fellow was lying in the

19 middle of the street about opposite Eastwoods clothing.

20 I was about nine feet from him. The fellow was just

21 lying there with his hands at his side. He didn't move.

22 This fellow was wearing a black coloured jacket. I

23 think he had black hair. I saw Allister Hanvey kick

24 this fellow three to four time while he was on the

25 ground. The kicks were to the fellow's chest area.

129

1 I know Hanvey to see for about three years. I can't

2 remember what Hanvey was wearing. I then saw another

3 fellow kick the boy lying on the ground. This fellow

4 has black hair and I know him to see about Portadown.

5 He is called Fonzy. He would be in his early 20s.

6 I saw Fonzy kick the fellow lying on the ground with the

7 black jacket in the face a couple of times. The fellow

8 lying on the ground still didn't move. I didn't see any

9 blood about him."

10 Was that you?

11 A. He is saying that it is me but I definitely know I

12 wasn't involved in anything like that.

13 Q. But what we have, you see, is a witness, who appears to

14 be independent, who describes the start of this, which

15 has you, Mr Woods and Mr Robinson, as it would appear,

16 at the end of Thomas Street just waiting for the

17 Catholics. But one of you starts the fight. Two of

18 you, we know, deny all of this. One of them -- that is

19 Mr Woods -- denies he is with anybody else, Mr Robinson

20 denies flat out that he was involved in any activity at

21 all, and the Panel has got to know why these people are

22 denying this.

23 Now, you are telling us you don't remember anything,

24 and here we have a witness who says you are kicking to

25 death Mr Hamill. What do you say about that?

130

1 A. Well, I am afraid he has made a mistake but that is all

2 I can say about it. There has definitely been

3 a mistake.

4 Q. Were you at Tracy McAlpine's house later in the day?

5 A. Reading my statement, that is where I was, yes.

6 Q. Looking at page [07355], if we may, you are asked about

7 that by the police, and about three quarters of the way

8 down you are asked about the conversations going on

9 there and you said:

10 "I heard that Hanvey had hit somebody with a bottle."

11 Question: "When you heard that, what was the

12 discussion or what was the talk about it?"

13 Answer: "Myself I didn't -- I just thought it was

14 a stupid thing to do and I said that at the time. [07356] They

15 were just talking about what happened, the usual old

16 craic, and I just went on home shortly after."

17 We know about a number of the people who were

18 present there, including Mr Hanvey and Tracey Clarke and

19 a number of others who are said to have been involved in

20 this murder. Now, can you remember who was in the room

21 when that discussion was going on?

22 A. I can't, I truthfully can't.

23 Q. Is there some reason why you are anxious to avoid

24 remembering any of this?

25 A. No. Well, as I say, it is a long time ago. It is one

131

1 of those things in life that unfortunately had happened,

2 I can see I was there, and it is like anything, you

3 know, in life.

4 Q. Not for Mr Hamill. So what would you like to say about

5 your memory loss?

6 A. I say it is just the time and, as I say, I just can't

7 remember. All I can refer back to is what I have said

8 back then.

9 Q. No further questions.

10 Questions by MR FERGUSON

11 MR FERGUSON: Mr Allen, you were giving a statement which

12 was meant for the assistance of the Inquiry.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever sign that statement?

15 A. The statement, no.

16 Q. You didn't? Did you read it?

17 A. Is this the statement back in --

18 Q. No, no, no, a much more recent document.

19 A. There was one given to me recently. Is that --

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes, I have read through it, yes.

22 Q. Yes. And did you sign it?

23 A. No, not that I know of, no.

24 Q. Any reason why you wouldn't sign it?

25 A. If it is the statement that you are speaking about, my

132

1 solicitor has asked me not to sign it.

2 Q. And who is your solicitor?

3 A. It is Mr Montieth.

4 Q. Mr Monteith. You took the statement to Mr Monteith, did

5 you, to ask his advice?

6 A. I spoke with the solicitor about it, yes.

7 Q. And he advised you, "Don't sign that"?

8 A. That is -- that is what I have been told, yes.

9 Q. Did you ask him why not?

10 A. No, I was just advised not to.

11 Q. It doesn't strike you as somewhat strange to be told not

12 to sign the statement?

13 A. I don't know. That is just what I was asked not to do.

14 I'm just going on advice here.

15 Q. Part of the problem I have with your evidence is that

16 I don't really understand it because in that statement

17 in paragraph 5 --

18 MR UNDERWOOD: [80009].

19 MR FERGUSON: Thank you very much indeed. In paragraph 5

20 you refer to being shown a copy of the transcript.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Just wait one moment, Mr Ferguson, while it

22 is put up on the screen.

23 MR FERGUSON: Sorry.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: [80009].

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is up now.

133

1 MR FERGUSON: You see that document on the screen in front

2 of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in paragraph 5 of the document you say:

5 "There is produced and shown to me a copy of the

6 transcript of interview."

7 And there are references to various pages, and then

8 you say:

9 "It is a true transcript of the interview to the

10 best of my knowledge and belief, although it does not

11 refresh my memory at all in relation to the incident."

12 How do you know it is a true copy or account?

13 A. Well, that obviously -- that interview back in 1997 was

14 what I had said then but it says, like, it is 12 years

15 ago and as I say, I have just got on with things and

16 just forgot about it.

17 Q. Never mind getting on with things 12 years, what I want

18 to know is this: if you can't remember the events, how

19 were you in a position to say one way or the other if

20 this transcript of this interview was true to the best

21 of your knowledge and belief?

22 A. Because back -- this is what we are talking about here,

23 1997 -- this is what, obviously, I have said.

24 Q. Yes, but by the time you came to put in this most recent

25 statement, that it was true, a true account, how did you

134

1 know if it was a true account or an untrue account or

2 something that has been made up by the police or what?

3 A. Well, I take that the police wouldn't be making things

4 up. If they had -- if that is what they have stated,

5 then I go by that.

6 Q. You go by that?

7 A. Hm-mm.

8 Q. Even though you have no independent memory of the events

9 described. Is that right?

10 A. That is right.

11 Q. Have you any memory of the circumstances in which you

12 had your interview? Do you remember the interview

13 itself in May 1997?

14 A. I can't recall all what went on but I know it was just

15 quite a shocking time then, yes.

16 Q. I bet it was. At that time, of course, you were being

17 advised by a different solicitor.

18 A. That is right, yes.

19 Q. A Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes. Why didn't you go to Mr xxxxxxxxxx with the document

22 which was produced to you by the Inquiry?

23 A. Because I did approach Mr xxxxxxxxxx but he no longer does

24 this and he then advised me to give Mr Monteith a shout.

25 Q. I see.

135

1 A. And that is where that came across.

2 Q. I'm not being facetious but you didn't have any sort of

3 brain trauma or difficulty or accident or anything which

4 would account for your loss of memory?

5 A. No.

6 Q. No. It wasn't drink?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No. I mean, this must have made a great impact upon

9 you, being questioned by the police about a murder?

10 A. Well, as I say, it was a shocking time, yes.

11 Q. Not only a shocking time but a shocking time for you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. When did you lose your memory of what had taken

14 place that night?

15 A. Well, it is just -- as I say, it has been a long time

16 ago and I have got on with my life and just put all that

17 stuff behind me. It has been a number of years from

18 when I even thought about it.

19 Q. Well, did you discuss it down the years at any time with

20 some of your friends or who were with you that night?

21 A. I would have said no.

22 Q. You didn't?

23 A. No.

24 Q. To nobody?

25 A. No.

136

1 Q. Are you telling the truth?

2 A. Yes.

3 Questions by MR O'HARE

4 MR O'HARE: Could [07324] be put up on the screen and the top

5 paragraph highlighted? This again is an excerpt from

6 your interview with police officers on 15 May 1997. You

7 will see there it starts off:

8 "The police arrived in a purple Sierra, as I've

9 said, and I walked on across the road. Do you know

10 where the island is in the middle of the street? And

11 either the police got out of the car there or they drove

12 the car round and got out there, and then I stopped

13 there and I seen the police get out and I seen one of

14 the policemen down on his knees..."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. I see it, yes.

17 Q. Yes. Well, is that the sort of thing you would have made

18 up when you were being interviewed by the police on

19 15 May 1997 about seeing a policeman down on his knees?

20 A. Doubtful, no.

21 Q. Yes. Or you weren't sure whether they got out of the

22 car there or they drove the car around and got out there

23 and then?

24 A. I can't remember back to that but that is what I have

25 said at the time.

137

1 Q. Yes. Have you any reason to doubt that that was not

2 true, what you were telling the police at the time in

3 respect of that policemen, the movements of the car and

4 the police officer getting down to his knees?

5 A. Probably not, no.

6 MR O'HARE: Thank you.

7 Questions by MR McGRORY

8 MR McGRORY: I have some questions to ask on behalf of the

9 Hamill family.

10 Can we take it, Mr Allen, that the record of the

11 interview you had with the police when you were arrested

12 for this murder is not in dispute in terms of its

13 accuracy?

14 A. Well, it was closer to the time and --

15 Q. And of course you have no memory of anything now, so you

16 are relying on this record of what you told the police

17 happened as much as any of the rest of us are?

18 A. That would be right, yes.

19 Q. You were asked about a party in Tracy McAlpine's house.

20 You have no memory of that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No. But you will accept that what you said about it and

23 who else was there at the time would have been an

24 accurate account?

25 A. It would have been.

138

1 Q. I don't think it is necessary to bring it up, but at

2 page [07353] you were asked if a number of personalities

3 were there, including Allister Hanvey. If you told the

4 police then that Allister Hanvey was there, then he was

5 there. Is that correct?

6 A. Well, my memory would have been definitely closer to the

7 time then and all I can say is what I was saying then,

8 I have to go by.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you trying to tell the truth?

10 A. Sorry?

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you trying to tell the truth?

12 A. Well, I would have been.

13 MR McGRORY: You had no reason to make up Allister Hanvey's

14 presence at the party?

15 A. Not that I know of.

16 Q. You had nothing against Allister Hanvey?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Dean Forbes, you said he was there too. Can you

19 remember him being there?

20 A. No. As I say, I can't remember the party at all. I'm

21 just going by what I have said back then.

22 Q. You had no reason to make up that he was there?

23 A. Not that I know of.

24 Q. No. Okay. In terms of what happened to you that night,

25 let's be clear about this: there is a dispute as to how

139

1 the events that led to Robert Hamill's death started.

2 Are you aware that that is in dispute?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No. Well, there are a number of versions of events as

5 to how it all began. Let's just recap on your version.

6 Your version is that you get off the bus -- sorry, do

7 you go into Boss Hogg's or not? I can't remember.

8 A. Reading this I didn't, no.

9 Q. No. Reading that you didn't, okay.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. So you go on down the road, you are pretty much

12 in a group with Rory Robinson and Davey Woods. We know

13 you don't remember, but that is what you told the police

14 the case was?

15 A. That is what I have said.

16 Q. Yes. Indeed, there is a lady called Tracy Newell who

17 has given evidence to the Inquiry. She said she

18 observed the three of you close to each other on the way

19 down the street. Would you accept that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes. You get to the corner. Now, according to your

22 version of events, you stop for a while to wait for the

23 others to catch up. Do you remember reading that?

24 A. That's what I said, yes, indeed, yes.

25 Q. And you said at some point in your interview to the

140

1 police that, well, you want to see what the craic was,

2 whether there was a party happening or something?

3 A. Right, okay.

4 Q. And indeed you end up at a party later on, even though

5 you don't remember. Do you accept that you told the

6 police that?

7 A. Hm-mm.

8 Q. So is it reasonable for us to assume that when you were

9 telling the police that you stopped at the corner with

10 Davey Woods and Rory Robinson, there is no reason that

11 you would make that up?

12 A. No, not that I'm aware of.

13 Q. You see, it is at this point then that the different

14 versions of how this all began start to emerge, the

15 different accounts. Let's look at the difference in the

16 accounts between the three of you: Davey Woods, Rory

17 Robinson and yourself.

18 Now, you said to the police that all of a sudden

19 each of the three of you is attacked by three

20 individuals for no reason?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Davey Woods is struck and he is fairly close to you at

23 the corner. That is what you told the police.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There is another man approaches you. Do you remember

141

1 telling the police that? And he starts throwing punches

2 at you?

3 A. I have read this, yes.

4 Q. You have read that, yes. And then Rory Robinson, you

5 observe by this point he has moved over towards

6 Eastwoods and somebody attacks him?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. That's what you told the police?

9 A. That's what I have said at the time, yes.

10 Q. Yes. Well, I want to suggest to you that one of the

11 unusual features of your account to the police as to how

12 all this began is that according to you nobody said

13 a thing. Do you remember telling the police that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No. That, according to your account, a man starts

16 throwing punches at you, another man runs over and hits

17 Davey Woods and another man starts attacking Rory

18 Robinson all completely out of the blue. Nobody says

19 a thing. They don't even say why they are doing this.

20 They don't call you anything. They say nothing.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Quite a feature of the interview that you had with the

23 police is that they seem quite amazed by this, that not

24 a word was said. Have you anything to say about that?

25 A. No.

142

1 Q. Could it be that in fact that account that you gave the

2 police as to how each of the three of you was attacked

3 was a load of nonsense?

4 A. No. Well, as I say, that is what I said back at the

5 time and I will stand by that, yes.

6 Q. You see, I'm suggesting to you you are making that up?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. You see, Davey Woods gives a slightly different account.

9 You have heard it suggested to you that he says he is

10 not with you two; he is completely on his own. We have

11 heard from him. And he says he makes his way up

12 Thomas Street until he gets about level with Jameson's

13 bar and then out of the blue he is struck by somebody,

14 but he puts himself some little distance further away

15 than where you put him. But you can't explain that?

16 A. No, I can't speak for him, no.

17 Q. He says he is not even aware of you being present?

18 A. Right, okay.

19 Q. Or Rory Robinson. And he says his sister came down from

20 the flat above Jameson's where she lived and she rescued

21 him, took him in, but that you weren't lucky enough.

22 That didn't happen to you?

23 A. No, I wasn't pulled in anywhere, no.

24 Q. You see, because what you told the police is that you

25 ran up Thomas Street, do you see?

143

1 A. I read that.

2 Q. You read that. To get away from this chap?

3 A. Hm-mm.

4 Q. So that means you ran up where Davey Woods was rescued

5 by his sister and brother-in-law?

6 A. Right, okay.

7 Q. You didn't observe that?

8 A. Whatever I have said back then, that's what I'm going

9 by, yes.

10 Q. And the other problem with your account is, of course,

11 that Rory Robinson gives a different version of events?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a comment. Just put the question,

13 please. It is very important to avoid these comments,

14 especially when evidence already given upon which you

15 are basing your comment may be very much in dispute and

16 may have been contradicted by what that person has said

17 on another occasion.

18 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir.

19 Now, Mr Underwood had put to you at some length Rory

20 Robinson's account of his experience that night. Do you

21 remember him doing that a little while ago?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you accept from me that the account that Rory

24 Robinson gave to the police, which was read out to you

25 earlier, doesn't make any mention of the fact he was

144

1 struck by somebody, as you have described to the police?

2 A. It doesn't say that.

3 Q. No, it doesn't, no. So what I'm suggesting to you,

4 Mr Allen, is that each of the three of you has given

5 a completely different account of how these events

6 started to the police?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a comment. What's the question?

8 MR McGRORY: You can't all be telling the truth, can you?

9 A. Well, it has been mixed up somewhere, yes.

10 Q. Yes. Now, were you afraid to speak about these events

11 in any detail?

12 A. Afraid?

13 Q. Yes, were you afraid to tell the truth about these

14 events?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: At what stage, Mr McGrory?

16 MR McGRORY: When you were speaking to the police.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

18 A. Not that I know of.

19 MR McGRORY: Not that you know of.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can I get page [07331], please, perhaps [07330] at the

22 bottom of the page. Now, the police are asking you here

23 about events -- this is your interview with them at the

24 bottom of the page. Did you not feel it appropriate

25 that you should have come in and talked to the police

145

1 now.

2 What the police are asking you at this point is if

3 you were assaulted as you said you were, and as you said

4 Rory Robinson and David Woods was, they are asking you

5 why you didn't report it to the police?

6 A. Okay, yes.

7 Q. Well, why didn't you?

8 A. No -- well. Well, I don't know. Truth -- I don't know

9 what was going on at the time, what I was thinking back

10 then. I just don't know.

11 Q. You see, Mr Allen, if the events started as you describe

12 them, as you describe them, then three people --

13 yourself, David Woods and Rory Robinson -- were the

14 innocent victims of an unprovoked assault. Do you

15 understand that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And absolutely no attempt by any of three of you to go

18 and report it to the police. Can you explain why?

19 A. No, I don't know. I don't know what was going on then,

20 what I was thinking about then, I just don't.

21 Q. You see, particularly in the events that followed, and

22 what is indisputable is that Robert Hamill was knocked

23 to the ground at some point during these events and was

24 brutally kicked lying on the ground and he died as

25 a result of his injuries. Are you aware of that?

146

1 A. Hm-mm.

2 Q. And you were aware of it at the time?

3 A. Hm-mm.

4 Q. Would that not have prompted you to say to Rory Robinson

5 and David Woods, or to say to yourself even --

6 MR McCOMB: I'm very, very sorry to interject. When my

7 friend asks "at the time", I wonder could he be more

8 specific and say whether this was before or after the

9 date that Robert Hamill died?

10 MR McGRORY: Certainly. Certainly in the days after

11 Robert Hamill was assaulted, it would have been known in

12 Portadown and certainly amongst your group of people

13 that you were friends with, that there was a serious

14 assault and that someone had been badly injured.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that right?

16 A. Yes, I'm sure it was, yes.

17 MR McGRORY: Right. At that stage, did it occur to you to

18 maybe go to the police and say, well, you know, I was

19 there that night and that all this started because three

20 guys came and attacked three of us?

21 A. I obviously haven't.

22 Q. In fact, four guys, because in your version of events

23 you were attacked by a second chap within minutes of

24 being attacked by the first one. So it didn't occur to

25 you to go to the police at any time?

147

1 A. It mustn't have back then.

2 Q. Well, at the bottom of that page that is on the screen,

3 [07330], you say:

4 "Yes, it's like this. I came in, I talked to you.

5 If somebody finds out, I am going to end up in a lot of

6 trouble from paramilitaries and things like that, you

7 know."

8 So that is what you told the police when you were

9 eventually asked about this.

10 A. Yes, that is what I said at the time, yes.

11 Q. Well, who were you afraid of? What paramilitaries?

12 A. I don't know. It must have been just in general.

13 Q. Why would the paramilitaries have a problem with you

14 telling the police that you and Rory Robinson and

15 Davey Woods were the innocent victims of an attack by

16 four men at the bottom of Thomas Street?

17 A. They wouldn't. I don't know.

18 Q. Well, is it the case, Mr Allen, that some of those

19 involved in the attack on Robert Hamill, were they

20 associated with paramilitaries?

21 A. Not that I know of.

22 Q. Or who were alleged to be involved in it?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Just one moment. This seems to me to be

24 fishing. It is a well established common law rule that

25 you can't fish. There has to be a proper basis upon

148

1 which you ask this kind of question.

2 MR McGRORY: Sir, the question was asked for --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: At the moment I don't see it. If you wish to

4 make clear to me the basis for asking the questions, I'm

5 listening and then I will rule on it.

6 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: But if you do not do that, you must move on.

8 MR McGRORY: As you please, sir.

9 Well, is it the case, Mr Allen, that everything you

10 have told the police and everything you have told this

11 inquiry is a cock and bull story?

12 A. No.

13 MR McGRORY: No further questions.

14 Questions by MS DINSMORE

15 MS DINSMORE: With your leave, Chairman, just two very brief

16 points. My friend Mr Ferguson has already dealt in part

17 with this with you, but in paragraph 8 of your Inquiry

18 statement you said you had had a few drinks. Now,

19 I take it you can't remember how much alcohol you would

20 have consumed?

21 A. No, I am afraid not.

22 Q. Can you help the Inquiry perhaps by if you were out for

23 a night out like this at the Coach, that would have been

24 a fairly regular thing for you?

25 A. Well, I would have been there a few times.

149

1 Q. Could you perhaps indicate whether or not -- this is not

2 meant to be a criticism or derogatory in any way --

3 would you have, in all probability, had substantial

4 drink taken on a night out like that?

5 A. Well, I would have went out and had a few drinks, okay,

6 yes.

7 Q. I don't want to labour it, but is a few drinks leading

8 to a state of drunk-ish or drunkenness or legless or

9 stocious, I believe is a term we are all familiar with?

10 A. I suppose if I go out for a night out, I would have been

11 out to feel the effects of the drink, I'm sure, yes.

12 Q. So that is really as much assistance as you can give us

13 on that?

14 A. Yes. Well, I had --

15 Q. Thank you. Could we just call up lastly [07408], please.

16 Now, if I just put this in context for you,

17 Mr Allen, this part of your interview of 15 May is

18 referring to the walk up from the Coach and that there

19 was a crowd behind you that you were in front of, and if

20 I could just take you to the last six lines on that when

21 you are being asked about the demeanour of this crowd,

22 it was put to you:

23 "Volume of noise that is aggressive, or is it

24 a volume of noise attributable to people that have a bit

25 much to drink?"

150

1 Answer: "The usual, just talking, you know, and

2 carrying on. Nothing overexcited or going wild."

3 Now, insofar as what you told the police represents

4 the truth as you understood it at the time, is the

5 Inquiry correct in understanding that there was nothing

6 prior to this altercation, alleged altercation at the

7 bottom or in the mouth of Thomas Street that would have

8 alerted anyone that there was anything unusual or

9 anything one should be particularly cautious or alerted

10 to? Am I right in that?

11 A. Going by that, yes.

12 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

14 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

16 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today, sir.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Half past ten tomorrow morning and we shall

18 be beginning in a private session.

19 (5.53 pm)

20 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)

151

1 I N D E X

2
Application by MR ADAIR .......................... 2
3
MR DEAN FORBES (sworn) .......................... 28
4
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 28
5
Questions by MR ADAIR ........................ 64
6
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 76
7
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 102
8
Questions by MR O'CONNOR ..................... 113
9
Questions by THE CHAIRMAN .................... 114
10
MR ANDREW ALLEN (affirmed) ....................... 115
11
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD .................... 115
12
Questions by MR FERGUSON ..................... 132
13
Questions by MR O'HARE ....................... 137
14
Questions by MR McGRORY ...................... 138
15
Questions by MS DINSMORE ..................... 149
16

152

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 10th March 2009, day 25