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Hearing: 27th February 2009, day 24
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Friday, 27th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 24
1 Friday, 27th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. I call Mr Woods, please.
4 MR WILLIAM THOMAS DAVID WOODS (sworn)
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Woods. It is coming from
7 over here. My name is Underwood and I am counsel to the
8 Inquiry. I have some questions for you to start with,
9 and then, when I have finished, other people may have
10 some as well.
11 Can I start by asking you your full names?
12 A. William Thomas David Woods.
13 Q. We are interested, as I think you know, about the events
14 of 27th April 1997 and in particular how fighting broke
15 out then. I want to ask you to do the best you can to
16 recall what you saw and what happened with you.
17 Can I start by showing you a model of the scene? If
18 we might see that up on the screen. Right. This is
19 a model put together from a collection of photographs of
20 the way in which Portadown town centre looked on
21 27th April.
22 What we will do is pan this round 360 degrees. You
23 can see Number 7 Bakery there, Jamesons, looking down
24 Thomas Street to the British Legion end. This is
25 Eastwoods Clothing. If we just pause it there, looking
1
1 up towards the church and West Street and then carrying
2 on round. Looking over just there, we are looking into
3 Woodhouse Street with the Land Rover parked at the top
4 of it.
5 Now, I think on the night, or, rather, the early
6 morning of 27th April, you were coming up the town from
7 the Boss Hogg's end. Is that right?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 Q. Where were you going to?
10 A. I was going home.
11 Q. Where was that?
12 A. Up Thomas Street.
13 Q. Right. So if we pan this round a bit to the right,
14 let's stop it there, shall we? Can you recall, were you
15 walking up on the pavement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I am sorry. I talked over you. Would you mind
18 repeating that?
19 A. On the right-hand side of the town, I was walking on the
20 pavement.
21 Q. On the right-hand side as we are looking at it?
22 A. As we are looking at it, yes.
23 Q. So that would be on the side --
24 A. That would be the left then.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The same side as the bakery?
2
1 A. Yes.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: We have heard evidence and we have seen
3 statements which deal with a number of people and it is
4 obvious that some people got off the bus and stopped for
5 food. Some stopped and had a chat. Some walked
6 straight up the town. Some people came in groups. Some
7 people came up on their own.
8 Can you tell us, what was your position? Were you
9 walking up on your own or with other people?
10 A. I was walking home on my own.
11 Q. Did you stop for food or to talk to anybody on the way?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you see anybody walking in front of you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you see the Land Rover?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You see that we have put a Land Rover there. Sorry.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you aware of people behind you?
20 A. Yes. There should have been people behind me, yes.
21 We'd just got off a bus.
22 Q. You are assuming that rather than remembering that?
23 A. I am assuming that, yes. I didn't see anybody.
24 Q. Have you got any recollection of how close people were
25 behind you?
3
1 A. No.
2 Q. Tell us, would you, please, what happened to you when
3 you got to this area we are seeing here at the junction?
4 A. When I got to the junction, I went to walk up
5 Thomas Street home and there was a crowd of people
6 coming down the street and --
7 Q. Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you.
8 A. Coming down Thomas Street, which is my path home. They
9 were making a bit of a racket. So I just thought
10 I would walk on. Then I stopped because they started
11 getting a wee bit rowdy or what have you, hoping they
12 would go past.
13 Q. Can I just stop you there and just ask to get a little
14 more detail about that?
15 When you say there was a crowd of people coming up,
16 can you give us an idea of how many were in the crowd?
17 A. Five maybe. I can't really remember.
18 Q. Was it men or women or all women or all men?
19 A. Men and women.
20 Q. How far away were they from you when you first saw them?
21 A. I can't remember. I don't know.
22 Q. You know where the British Legion is?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were they up by there?
25 A. I can't remember. I was very drunk.
4
1 Q. Uh-huh. So where were you when you first saw them?
2 A. Just up Thomas Street. I can't remember exactly where.
3 Q. Would you have got past Jamesons?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Right. So either outside Jamesons or outside
6 Number 7 Bakery then. Would that be right?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Just try to give us an impression of how far these
9 people were away from you?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. But you could hear the racket?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What sort of racket was it? Were they shouting,
16 singing, laughing or what?
17 A. Just shouting and kicking at a door, which was pretty --
18 was in front of me.
19 Q. Can you tell us which door they were kicking? Was it
20 Jamesons?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know.
22 Q. All right. You told us you saw them. They were making
23 this racket. Carry on, please, telling us what happened
24 after that?
25 A. I stopped, hoping they would go on past, and some fella
5
1 run down and punched me.
2 Q. Was this fella one of the crowd?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: One of the group of five is that?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you tell us, did he break away from the
7 group to do that or --
8 A. I didn't see the rest of the group. I didn't pay
9 attention. I didn't even see him coming. I just
10 remember getting a smack in the mouth.
11 Q. But you had stopped there to let them go by, had you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So were you watching them?
14 A. I can't remember. I just stopped.
15 Q. What happened after that?
16 A. I moved back in case I was going to be attacked or what
17 have you, but nothing else happened.
18 Q. Do you mean back up towards the main street, or do you
19 mean into a doorway, or what?
20 A. Yes. Just back maybe a step or two.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. It was only one punch and he went past. I can't really
23 remember much. Then my sister, she lives in the flat
24 above Jamesons Bar, she came out, or someone came out,
25 I can't even remember who it was, and brought me in and
6
1 that was the night over.
2 Q. You saw no more of anything that went on?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Right. Can you give us any help about what the person
5 looked like who hit you?
6 A. No. I haven't a clue.
7 Q. What he was wearing?
8 A. No. I don't remember.
9 Q. Any impression of size? Bigger than you, smaller than
10 you?
11 A. I don't remember, no. It could have been anybody.
12 Q. If we pan this round to the right a bit more to look at
13 Jamesons, and stop it there, please, your sister lived
14 in one of the flats above there, did she?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you help us which of the doorways it was?
17 A. The first doorway you see on the left, she lived above
18 it, where the first Jamesons sign is there. That's her
19 windows there.
20 Q. The one nearest to Number 7 Bakery?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to show you some documents now. The first one
23 I want to look at is at page [01038]. This is a letter.
24 Perhaps we can amplify. That's fine. It is a letter
25 written by a man called P42. He lived in a flat around
7
1 the British Legion area what he says here is:
2 "On the date of the fight I observed two men and two
3 ladies walking in the direction of the town centre from
4 the fire station. One lady said not to walk any further
5 as a crowd of lads were standing at the corner bakery,
6 to which the man replied, 'This is a free country and
7 I will walk where the f*** I like'.
8 "At this, he shouted to the fellas, 'Do you want
9 a fight?" This was shouted about two, maybe three,
10 times before the crowd at the bakery responded.
11 Then, from this, both sides started provoking each
12 other. The man that had been doing most of the talking
13 then walked out to the middle of the road, placed his
14 bottle to the ground, he raised his hands into the air
15 and waved as he repeatedly said, 'Come on then'.
16 "Eventually, one man stepped out from the crowd at
17 the bakery and shouted, 'I'll take you then'. At this
18 point, the ladies that were with the two men shouted for
19 them to stop and walk home. But the provoking became
20 worse until both men were about a foot away and sizing
21 each other up, with not one ready to throw a punch until
22 another man broke from the crowd at the bakery, ran
23 between them both and punched the one facing the town,
24 ran off in the direction of St Mark's Church.
25 "The one who had received the blow to his face then
8
1 punched the one who was sizing up to him and ran after
2 the man who had thrown the first punch.
3 "Then, one by one, the crowd started to run in the
4 direction of the fight, being followed by the man and
5 both ladies who had been with the person who had started
6 the provocation."
7 So there is this man looking out of his window
8 roughly in the area of the British Legion, looking down
9 the street. What he says is he saw a group, he thinks
10 two men and two women, walking up the road. What he
11 told us, when he came to give evidence, is they stopped
12 around the area of his flat, so around the
13 British Legion area there was a crowd of lads standing
14 up by Number 7 Bakery.
15 What happens, according to him, is that the crowd by
16 Number 7 Bakery and these people who were up by the
17 British Legion are shouting at each other down that
18 distance. Then they get together. They are provoking
19 each other.
20 Then what he says is one man is facing up to -- one
21 man, who turns out to be a Protestant, is facing up to
22 one man who turns out to be a Catholic. As they are
23 doing that, one of the Protestants then breaks out of
24 the crowd by the bakery and punches the Catholic. The
25 Catholic then punches the man whom he is squaring up to,
9
1 then the Catholics run off in the direction of the town.
2 Let me put some questions to you about that. What
3 do you say about the proposition that there was
4 a number of people standing by Number 7 Bakery?
5 A. I seen none of that.
6 Q. Did you see any other fight start in any other way?
7 A. No. I just heard a racket and I got punched. I seen no
8 more of it.
9 Q. You see, what he is saying is this is the start of the
10 fight and you are telling us the town was quiet, there
11 was nobody in front of you and there was no other fight.
12 A. I said I heard a racket.
13 Q. That's right. You said you heard no other fight,
14 though, didn't you? You didn't see any other fight?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Right. So if there was no fight going on when you
17 turned up and what he is describing here is the fight
18 that starts at the top of Thomas Street and then
19 continues on, can you suggest how he could have got this
20 wrong?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What do you say to the idea that you were squaring up to
23 somebody?
24 A. I wasn't, no.
25 Q. What do you say to the idea that somebody else who was
10
1 near you then hit the person you were squaring up to?
2 A. No. If there is anyone behind me, I didn't see.
3 Q. But you have told us that you didn't see where the man
4 who punched you came from. You say he was part of the
5 crowd, but you didn't see him break from the crowd. You
6 didn't see him walk past. Is that right?
7 A. Yes. It could have been anybody.
8 Q. So it could have been that the person behind you hit him
9 first. Is that right?
10 A. Could have been.
11 Q. Well, how likely is that?
12 A. I don't know. I didn't see it. I didn't see anybody
13 getting hit. I just felt being hit.
14 Q. Okay.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you told us a few minutes ago that
16 the man who hit you had been one of the group of five.
17 A. Yes, that's right, yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that right?
19 A. I think so, yes.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: You can't tell us whether somebody hit him
21 first?
22 A. No. No. He hit me. I didn't see anybody hit anybody,
23 only him hit me.
24 Q. You see, this witness, P42, he is not suggesting you hit
25 anybody. What he is suggesting is you were squaring up
11
1 to somebody and the person you were squaring up to got
2 hit by somebody who came from behind you?
3 A. I wasn't squaring up to anyone.
4 Q. If we look at page [09101], this is a statement of
5 a gentleman called Mr Prunty. If we take this from just
6 over halfway down on the right-hand side, there is
7 a sentence which starts:
8 "We were walking down Thomas Street on the footpath
9 on the right-hand side of the road. We were walking
10 along towards the main street to cross over into
11 Woodhouse Street. Ahead of us was a fella called D. He
12 was with his wife E and another girl called F. I'm not
13 sure of her second name but I think she's E's sister."
14 So here is a group, of which he is part, walking up
15 Thomas Street:
16 "Ahead of them was Robert Hamill. He was on his own
17 and about roughly 30 to 40 yards ahead of me. I know
18 both D and Robert Hamill very well."
19 If we go over the page [09102], three lines down:
20 "We were just walking along and thought everything
21 was safe enough because we could see the back end of
22 a police Land Rover sitting in the middle of the main
23 street. It was like diagonally parked facing towards
24 where the Halifax Building Society would be. The next
25 thing, I heard a lot of people shouting, 'Get the Fenian
12
1 bastards'. I looked up and saw a crowd of about 30-odd
2 people, mostly fellas, coming from the left of the main
3 street. They were running and the front ones of the
4 group had caught Robert Hamill and were dragging him to
5 the ground."
6 So his version of events of how this fight started
7 is that there is this group of Catholics walking up the
8 street minding their own business. They get to the end
9 of Thomas Street and a group of about 30 people set on
10 Mr Hamill. Did you see any of that?
11 A. No. I was indoors.
12 Q. Were you part of any of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Then if we look at page [09098], this is the statement
15 of this person called F. If we just pick up the middle
16 third of the text, four lines down this:
17 "When we reached the bottom of the street where it
18 joins High Street, I noticed two people standing at the
19 corner. As we started to cross the road to get to
20 Woodhouse Street, a crowd of about 30 people, the vast
21 majority of them males, jumped on us as if out of
22 nowhere. The next thing I saw was a lot of fellows
23 kicking and punching Robert. He fell to the ground.
24 I saw one or two of them jumping on his head, but
25 I couldn't say how many times."
13
1 Again, there is one of the Catholics walking up as
2 part of that group who say they are minding their own
3 business. They see a couple of people standing at the
4 corner. As they start to cross the road, the crowd sets
5 on them. Again, any comment about that?
6 A. I seen none of that.
7 Q. Then if we look at another one of these, page [00506],
8 second half of the page -- that's all we need -- about
9 five lines up from the bottom of this towards the
10 right-hand side of a line:
11 "As I walked into the main street, I was suddenly
12 attacked."
13 Again, this is one of that Catholic group saying
14 they were minding their own business, walking down doing
15 nothing wrong and a group that's coming up the town sets
16 on them. Any more comment?
17 A. I wasn't part of no group. I was on my own trying to
18 get home.
19 Q. Let me just show you page [07302]. This is part of
20 an interview with Andrew Allen. Did you know
21 Andrew Allen at the time?
22 A. I knew him to see.
23 Q. His nickname is "Fonzy", I think. Did you know that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you see him that night?
14
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. You see, I only want to take you to this page of this.
3 At the top against the word "Allen" he is answering
4 a question. He said:
5 "I went to the Coach and got the bus home. I was
6 going up the town. I was going up. There was me and
7 two other boys and we stopped just at the wee bakery at
8 the corner of Thomas Street there waiting on the other
9 crowd to catch up.
10 "Question: Who were the two boys with you?
11 "Answer: Rory Robinson was there and David Woods.
12 I heard shouting coming down Thomas Street but I just
13 thought it was somebody from the Legion or Jamesons.
14 Then there was a crowd of boys and girls coming down.
15 I thought they were going to walk on past. I paid no
16 attention. One of the boys hit David Woods on the face
17 and then another boy started fighting with
18 Rory Robinson. Another boy came at me and I backed off
19 into the middle of the road. He kept on coming at me
20 trying to -- swinging punches trying to hit me. So
21 I turned and ran up Thomas Street ..."
22 Now, where did Andrew Allen live? Did he live up
23 Thomas Street as well?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. What about Rory Robinson? Did you see him that night?
15
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. What do you mean you don't know?
3 A. Did I see Rory Robinson?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I can't remember whether I seen him or not.
6 Q. Can you give us any reason why Mr Allen would have said
7 he was there with you and Rory Robinson?
8 A. I was on my own.
9 Q. Did you speak to Andrew Allen in the days --
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. You see, he gave in interview about 10th May. So he
12 felt able to tell the police, on 10th May 1997, that, at
13 the start of this when you were hit, he and
14 Rory Robinson were with you.
15 Can you give any explanation about how he could have
16 said that? Had he discussed it with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Would you like to comment on the fact that that has some
19 similarities with what this witness at the
20 British Legion end of the town said: namely, that there
21 was a crowd at the top of Thomas Street?
22 A. If there was a group behind me, there was a group behind
23 me. I was on my own, trying to get home.
24 Q. Then let's look at some questions and answers in your
25 interviews with the police. If we look at page [07495],
16
1 you were asked about whether anybody joined your company
2 and went up the town with you, halfway down the page.
3 You say:
4 "Answer: No.
5 "Question: Nobody at all?
6 "Answer: Nobody at all."
7 You are asked:
8 "Question: Right. Did you stop anywhere, say for a
9 meal or a carry-out or whatever?
10 Overleaf, [07496]:
11 "Answer: No."
12 Then if we go to page [07497], at the top you say:
13 "Answer: And I heard people shouting, 'You Orange
14 bastard'. That was the sound as I came up from the
15 town."
16 Do you remember that now?
17 A. I can't remember, no.
18 Q. Can you give us any reason why, on your account that
19 there was nobody else there apart from these Catholics,
20 anybody would shout that?
21 A. I can't remember anyone shouting. I just remember
22 a racket.
23 Q. The question goes on:
24 "Question: Did this come from behind you or in front
25 of you?
17
1 "Answer: This was coming from in front of me.
2 "Question: So these people were actually coming
3 down Thomas Street to meet you?
4 "Answer: They were at -- outside the Legion bar.
5 I was outside Jamesons Bar."
6 So there you are. There are you accepting to the
7 police very much what that man P42 said, that these
8 Catholics were outside the British Legion. So that's
9 what you told the police. Was that right?
10 A. I just remember they were in front of me. I don't know
11 where.
12 Q. So is this it? You have a crowd of about five Catholics
13 shouting, "Orange bastard" and the only person they
14 could possibly have been shouting it at is you. Is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They are as far away from you as the British Legion
18 while you are in the Number 7 Bakery and you just stand
19 there waiting for them, do you, on your own?
20 A. Just somewhere in the street.
21 Q. What did you think they were going to do to you? Walk
22 on by? If they are shouting, "Orange bastard", from
23 that distance, didn't you expect some trouble when they
24 caught up with you?
25 A. No, not necessarily. I hoped they would go on by. As
18
1 I say, I was a young fella.
2 Q. It could only have got worse, couldn't it?
3 A. Not necessarily.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say you were hoping they would pass
5 by, that sounds as if you thought there was a risk they
6 wouldn't, doesn't it?
7 A. Sorry. Say that again.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. You say you were hoping they would pass
9 by. That sounds as though you thought there was a risk
10 that they wouldn't pass by, doesn't it?
11 A. Yes. I just stopped in the street.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: What did you think would happen if they did
13 stop?
14 A. I don't know what was going to happen. I don't know.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Can I suggest this? You thought what would
16 happen would be there would be a good scrap because you
17 were with two mates and you could take them on?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why else would you have stood there?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Why didn't you back off?
22 A. I didn't square up to anyone.
23 Q. When you saw a crowd of people coming down the street
24 from 100 yards or so away shouting, "Orange bastard", at
25 you coming in your direction, why did you just stand
19
1 there? Why didn't you back off?
2 A. I didn't do anything.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Why not turn round and go back into the
4 High Street?
5 A. I don't know why. I just stopped.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: You see, if we go on, you have said in answer
7 to the question we just looked at:
8 "Answer: They were at -- outside the Legion bar.
9 I was outside Jamesons Bar.
10 "Question: Right, and what did you hear them
11 saying?
12 "Answer: 'Orange bastards. Up the IRA'."
13 "Question: Right. Who was saying this and how
14 many people were in this group?
15 "Answer: There was about three fellas and two
16 girls."
17 So there are three fellas coming towards you
18 shouting, "Orange bastards. Up the IRA", and you are on
19 your own. Is that it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you sure about that?
22 A. I'm sure.
23 Q. You can't think of any reason why Andrew Allen would say
24 to the police that he and Rory Robinson were with you?
25 A. I don't know.
20
1 Q. If we go to page [07499], at the top there is
2 a question:
3 "Question: Did they know you?
4 "Answer: No.
5 "Question: It is just I am wondering how they knew
6 what religion you were."
7 Because, of course, he has picked up on the fact
8 that, "Orange bastard", must have been directed at you.
9 You say to that:
10 "Answer: They must have assumed I was from the
11 town.
12 "Question: They assumed. Right. Okay. So there
13 is two women and three men?"
14 Can you improve on that? Can you tell us why it is
15 they would have shouted "Orange bastard" at you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Because there they are, coming up Thomas Street,
18 Catholics. There is no reason for them to suspect you
19 are a Protestant, is there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Unless you are shouting something at them.
22 A. I wasn't shouting anything. I was just trying to go
23 home.
24 Q. Was that the only way home?
25 A. It was my quickest way home.
21
1 Q. You could have gone round another road.
2 A. Possible, yes.
3 Q. Then if we go further down the page, there is a question
4 just over halfway down:
5 "Question: Was it men or boys?
6 "Answer: Fully grown men.
7 "Question: Fully grown men. Big lumps of fellows?
8 "Answer: Yes.
9 "Question: Were they bigger than you?"
10 Going over the page, [07500]:
11 "Answer: yes."
12 Here you are able to describe them, because you go
13 on to a question:
14 "Question: They were. Do you remember which one of
15 the men said this or what he looked like, David?
16 "Answer: Yes. He had a blue shirt on and a tie.
17 "Question: A blue shirt and a tie on?
18 "Answer: Yes.
19 "Question: You remember that quite well?
20 "Answer: Yes."
21 So you were not so drunk that you couldn't remember
22 that description when you were interviewed in May about
23 this. Is that right?
24 A. I don't remember what they were wearing or what they
25 looked like.
22
1 Q. But do you accept that this would have been an accurate
2 take on your recollection at the time?
3 A. Well, if I said it at the time, yes, yes.
4 Q. It goes on, and halfway down the officer says:
5 "Question: Right, and what age would that fellow
6 have been?
7 "Answer: Late 20s.
8 "Question: Late 20s. Was he smaller than you or
9 taller than you, or what?
10 "Answer: He was taller and bigger build.
11 "Question: Well, how tall would he have been,
12 David?"
13 Overleaf [07501]:
14 "Answer: Nearly 6 foot, no 5' 10", 5' 11".
15 "Question: And when you say -- was he big build?
16 "Answer: He was a big build, yes.
17 "Question: Was he fat or was he muscular? Do you
18 know what I mean by that? Was he physically -- you
19 know, was he an Arnold Schwarzenegger or was he just
20 a slob?
21 "Answer: Fat."
22 Would that have been your recollection at the time
23 when you said this to the officer or were you making it
24 up?
25 A. I don't know.
23
1 Q. Were you telling the police the truth when they
2 interviewed you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then:
5 "Question: Right. Okay. Tell me what happened?
6 "Answer: The other man with him came running at
7 me.
8 "Question: What was he dressed in?
9 "Answer: He had a black coat on.
10 "Question: Do you know what type of coat it was?
11 "Answer: A leather coat."
12 Overleaf, [07502], the second "Woods" down there:
13 "Answer: A straight leather jacket.
14 "Question: Right. Would it have went to just his
15 waist or below?
16 "Answer: A box jacket."
17 So you were able to describe what two of the men
18 were wearing in that sort of detail. Do you accept
19 that's what you said to the police?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You stand by the answer you gave me a moment ago, do
22 you, that you were telling the truth?
23 A. I was telling the truth, yes. I haven't a clue what
24 they were wearing --
25 Q. Okay.
24
1 A. -- or what they looked like or what size they were.
2 Q. If you look at page [07505], you were asked more about
3 this. On the second mention of the word "Woods" there,
4 you say:
5 "Answer: He came running and hit me on the face and
6 run out into the middle of the town.
7 "Question: He hit you on the face?
8 "Answer: He hit me on the face and run past me
9 into the middle of the town.
10 "Question: Did he use his fist?
11 "Answer: Yes."
12 Again, that would have been your recollection at the
13 time, would it?
14 A. He hit me, yes, and just run somewhere, yes.
15 Q. If we look at page [07506] now, please, just the last
16 couple of lines:
17 "Question: What did you do?
18 "Answer: I just froze and stood against the
19 wall..."
20 Over the page, [07507]:
21 "... and the rest run past me.
22 "Question: And the rest of them run past you?
23 "Answer: Into the town."
24 Again, that's similar to what the man P42 said, that
25 after the first blows were struck, this group of
25
1 Catholics coming up the road ran into the town.
2 Again, can you recall that now?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Again, it stands, does it, that you would have recalled
5 it at the time and you were telling the truth to the
6 police in that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr Woods, the importance of this, let me just explain to
9 you, is that there are four police officers who were
10 accused of not getting out of their Land Rover quickly
11 enough.
12 In order for the Panel to determine whether that's
13 right or not, the Panel has to decide whether what
14 happened to Mr Hamill happened in a flash or whether
15 there was a slow build-up to it, if you see what I mean.
16 It would help them very much in their understanding of
17 that to know just how quickly the fighting started.
18 Your evidence then, is it, is that there was
19 shouting to start with, "Orange bastards", that sort of
20 thing?
21 A. I don't know what they were shouting. All I can
22 remember is a racket, trying to get home, punch in the
23 face, maybe stumbled about, whatever. I don't know who
24 was in front, who was behind. I just was drunk and went
25 home -- or to my sister's. Sorry.
26
1 Q. You describe them as coming up the street towards you.
2 You can't recall whether they were running, I take it.
3 A. No.
4 Q. So this racket would have continued for a while, is that
5 fair, for as long as it took them to walk up from the
6 Legion?
7 A. I don't know. I can't remember. How am I supposed to
8 know that? It's just a racket. That's it.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. I have no further questions. Thank
10 you.
11 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
12 MR FERGUSON: Just one matter, Mr Woods, which is probably
13 not at the forefront of the case, but you told us at the
14 beginning of your evidence that you didn't see
15 a Land Rover.
16 Do you remember being asked that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that right? Did you not see a Land Rover?
19 A. I can't remember seeing any Land Rover, no.
20 Q. You were interviewed by the police on 15th May of 1997.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The reference is at page [07529]. During the course of
23 that interview, you were asked about a Land Rover and
24 the police asked you:
25 "Question: Did you see a police Land Rover on your
27
1 travels when you were walking home?
2 "Answer: I can't remember.
3 "Question: Well, they are big and grey. You know,
4 it is just, if you notice one, sometimes they stick in
5 your mind
6 "Answer: Yes. There was one at the top of
7 Woodhouse Street."
8 Now, that was what you told the police, as I say, in
9 May of 1997. Was that accurate or not?
10 A. I can't remember what I seen in 1997.
11 Q. Can you remember, did you see a Land Rover?
12 A. No, I don't think so. Well, if I said, "Yes", I must
13 have, but I can't remember seeing a Land Rover.
14 Q. But you wouldn't have told the police you did see one if
15 there wasn't one there, would you?
16 A. I can't remember if I seen a Land Rover or not.
17 Q. You just can't remember?
18 A. I just can't remember.
19 Q. No recollection?
20 A. No recollection.
21 Q. Would your memory have been clearer in May 1997 than it
22 is now?
23 A. I would think so, yes.
24 Q. May we take it there was a Land Rover there?
25 A. There must have been.
28
1 MR FERGUSON: Very well.
2 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
3 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir.
4 I wonder could I have page [81287], please?
5 Now, Mr Woods, this is a document, a statement,
6 a draft statement, which has been prepared by the
7 Inquiry as a result of interviewing you.
8 Do you remember being interviewed by the Inquiry in
9 2008, last year?
10 A. Vaguely, yes.
11 Q. Have you seen this? Just have a quick look at it and
12 just ...
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you seen that before?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want to take you through some of the matters that are
17 in that document, as I don't think you have been taken
18 through it.
19 Now, you will see in paragraph 2 you say:
20 "At the time of the incident I was 17 years old ..."
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you still at school at the time or had you left
24 school or were you working? Can you remember?
25 A. An apprentice mechanic.
29
1 Q. You were an apprentice mechanic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you were in employment?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Had you been in that since you left school?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You lived, you tell us in this document, in Portadown
8 with your parents. You describe having a sister, Carol,
9 who was married to William Jones. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then you go on in that paragraph to describe that:
12 "I cannot remember who I socialised with at that
13 time but I did know Andrew Allen, Marc Hobson,
14 Rory Robinson, Allister Hanvey and Dean Forbes from the
15 Ulster bus."
16 Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you say:
19 "I never went out with them, as I was only 17 years
20 old in 1997, but I just recognised their faces."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you friendly with any of these people such as
25 Allen, Hobson, Robinson and Forbes, or did you just know
30
1 them to see?
2 A. I just knew them to see.
3 Q. Did you ever socialise with any of them, apart from
4 seeing them on the bus?
5 A. I can't remember what I was doing when I was 17. I kept
6 myself to myself really. I was out looking for a girl.
7 Q. You mention that later on in your statement and mention
8 that during the course of your interviews with the
9 police. When you were at the Coach that night, were you
10 dancing the whole night rather than socialising and
11 drinking with a crowd of boys?
12 A. Yes, chasing women, drinking, yes.
13 Q. Were you socialising or mixing that night with any of
14 these people that you mention in this paragraph?
15 A. No. I can't remember really. I don't think so.
16 Q. You then say that you don't know Wayne Lunt,
17 Gregory Blevins, Donald Blevins, Andrew Osborne or
18 Timothy Jameson. Is that right? Was that true?
19 A. At the time. I can't remember. At the time.
20 I probably don't --
21 Q. In paragraph 3, if you just highlight paragraph 3, you
22 say:
23 "On the evening of 26th April I left my home at 1800
24 or 1900 hours and went down to the river where there was
25 a snooker club. I was by myself and sitting outside the
31
1 club having a drink, probably cider. I think that
2 I drank a 3-litre bottle of cider."
3 Were you something of a loner in those days?
4 A. Yes, sort of, yes.
5 Q. Would it be fair to say you were the sort of person who
6 kept yourself to yourself?
7 A. Yes. I was a bit younger really then. I didn't really
8 come out of myself until I was a bit older, like.
9 Q. Now, if we go then to paragraph 7 on the following page,
10 please, [81288], I just want to ask you about what you
11 told the Inquiry in paragraph 7. You see it says:
12 "I began to walk up Thomas Street and I could hear
13 people shouting, 'Orange bastards', and, 'Up the RA',
14 and doors being kicked."
15 Is that true?
16 A. I cannot remember what they were shouting. I just
17 remember a racket.
18 Q. Well, you were able to remember back in 2008 what they
19 were shouting. So --
20 A. If that's what I have said there, then they must have.
21 I can't -- my mind is blank to it.
22 Q. I understand that minds can go blank, but if you do your
23 best today, Mr Woods, to help us with what you can
24 remember. It's very, very important. Do you understand
25 me?
32
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Now, you say then in paragraph 7:
3 "I could see two women and three boys walking down
4 Thomas Street."
5 Is that true? If you told the Inquiry that, is that
6 true?
7 A. I can't remember how many people was coming down the
8 street.
9 Q. Well, you have told us already there were five.
10 A. If I said it in the statement, then I told the truth in
11 the statement.
12 Q. When you say "the statement" you are talking about this
13 statement?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Is that the same as you told police back in 1997 when
16 you were interviewed?
17 A. I don't know what I told the police in 1997. I can't
18 remember.
19 Q. Now, you say in this statement:
20 "The men were bigger than me and one of them was,
21 'A big fat fellow, 5' 8", big shoulders, a big lump of
22 a fellow'. He was the one shouting, 'Orange bastards.
23 Up the RA'."
24 Is that true? If it is in this document, as you
25 told the Inquiry, is it true?
33
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. The Panel can look at this in due course, if needs be.
3 I am not going to go through your interviews.
4 Is that, again, what you told the police in terms
5 back in 1997?
6 A. I haven't a clue what happened in 1997.
7 Q. Now, in this document you say:
8 "I cannot remember anything else about this man or
9 what he was wearing."
10 But do you agree -- and you have been referred to
11 this already -- that this man is the man you described
12 back in 1997 as wearing the blue shirt?
13 A. Who?
14 Q. The man who is doing the shouting is the man you
15 initially described back in 1997 as --
16 A. I can't remember what anybody was wearing.
17 Q. I will just leave it at this. Is what you told the
18 police back in 1997 during the course of your interviews
19 true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. A line down:
22 "The other two men were not as big as the first man
23 but still a bit bigger than me and of average build.
24 I cannot remember anything else about these men and they
25 too were shouting, 'Orange bastards'."
34
1 Is that right? Is that true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. "I cannot recall what the women looked like, but they
4 were drunk too, although not as aggressive as the men."
5 Is that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we go over the page, [81289] to paragraph 8, please,
8 and if we highlight paragraph 8, you say in this
9 paragraph:
10 "I stopped to see if they were going to walk past me
11 and I saw one of the men kick the door of Jamesons pub."
12 Is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you remember at that stage how far up, if at all,
15 Thomas Street you were when you saw this man kicking the
16 door of Jamesons pub?
17 A. No. Just somewhere on the street, on the footpath.
18 Q. We know it is not very far up from the corner up to the
19 first doorway of Jamesons pub. Can you help us as all?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Were you a few steps up Thomas Street?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you actually in Thomas Street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you say you saw one of the men kick the door of
35
1 Jamesons pub, which was halfway down Thomas Street and
2 between the British Legion and the junction with
3 Market Street, and you were about 15 to 20 feet away
4 from them. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it right then, that at the time you first became
7 aware of these people shouting, "Orange bastards", and,
8 "Up the IRA", that they were only 15 to 20 feet away
9 from you?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Is what is in here true?
12 A. What is in the statement is true.
13 Q. If that's right, it was only a matter of a few steps
14 before they were actually up level with you. If you
15 first became aware of them shouting, "Orange bastards",
16 and, "Up the IRA" 15 to 20 feet away, four or five steps
17 has them right up at you. Isn't that right? That's
18 logical.
19 A. That is possible, yes.
20 Q. Now, about halfway down this paragraph you say:
21 "I thought that they would not pick on me as I am
22 a wee fella."
23 Were you a wee fella in those days?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I mean, I am not --
36
1 A. Small, thin, 17, yes.
2 Q. You were a small, thin 17-year-old?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you the same height then as you are now? What
5 height are you?
6 A. 5' 8".
7 Q. You are 5' 8" now?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you the same height then? Most people are about
10 the same height when they are 17.
11 A. I don't know. I don't know.
12 Q. Then you say:
13 "As I was watching the big fella", and that's the
14 fella with the blue shirt, "another one of them came
15 running down the street and smacked me in the eye and
16 ran off towards the town centre."
17 In the last sentence of that, you say:
18 "My attacker had short dark hair and was wearing
19 a black leather jacket, but I cannot remember anything
20 else about him."
21 Is that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Just again in relation to the sort of person you were in
24 1997, you have told us you were a loner, a wee, small,
25 skinny fellow.
37
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were working as an apprentice mechanic.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You didn't socialise with any of these people you have
5 mentioned in your statement. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we look at page [09642], this is the statement from
8 your -- is your mother called Shirley?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I just want to ask you something about this and what she
11 says in this statement to see whether it accords with
12 your recollection. She says:
13 "I am the above named and my address is known to
14 police. On Saturday 26th April 1997, my son David left
15 at approximately 7.30 pm to go to the Coach discotheque,
16 Banbridge."
17 Does that accord with your recollection?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "On Sunday", that's the next day, "27th April 1997, at
20 approximately 5.30 am, I was in the living room when
21 David returned home. I never sleep until he comes home.
22 I spoke to David in the living room and noticed one of
23 his eyes was puffed up."
24 Was one of your eyes puffed up as a result of the
25 blow you got?
38
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "I asked David if someone had hit him, but he didn't
3 answer me. I could smell drink off David but he wasn't
4 drunk. At approximately 1.30 am, my daughter Carol Ann
5 called and told me David, my son, had been hit by
6 someone and that there had been a terrible row in the
7 town. I probed David, who is a quiet lad by nature,
8 about what had happened on the night in question ..."
9 Were you a quiet lad by nature back in those days?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "... on the night in question and by Wednesday,
12 30th April 1997, David had told me that he had been hit
13 by someone he didn't know in Thomas Street, Portadown
14 and that a row had started and that Carol Ann had taken
15 him into her flat."
16 Is that what you told your mother?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you is just -- again
19 it has been put to you that, during the course of
20 an interview, Andrew Allen, who was ultimately charged
21 in relation to this matter, had suggested that you were
22 one of a group of people -- I am putting it in a very
23 general way.
24 I want you to be absolutely clear about this. Were
25 you walking home that night from the bus by yourself or
39
1 with anybody else?
2 A. I was on my own.
3 Q. Had you been essentially on your own throughout the
4 whole night?
5 A. I'm sure I spoke to people. Who knows when, what. Yes.
6 I wasn't -- I wasn't mute, like. I talk to people,
7 like, and just get on with things.
8 MR ADAIR: Thanks very much, Mr Woods.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we have the date of the statement of the
10 mother? The enlarged part came on very quickly.
11 I didn't see the date.
12 MR ADAIR: Oh, the date. 10th June 1997, sir.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
15 MR McGRORY: Mr Woods, I have some questions to ask you on
16 behalf of the Hamill family. You told Mr Underwood for
17 the Inquiry earlier that you have no recollection today
18 of precisely what happened. You couldn't give him any
19 description of who hit you or when it had happened.
20 A. No, I don't know who.
21 Q. So when Mr Adair asked you a few moments ago if it was
22 correct when you told the police that the fellow who had
23 struck you was wearing a leather jacket and so forth,
24 and you said, "That's right", that's not your memory
25 today, sure it's not?
40
1 A. I don't know who hit me.
2 Q. So you are only saying to Mr Adair beside me here that
3 that's correct, because you wouldn't have told the
4 police a lie. Isn't that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, let me just recap a little bit,
7 Mr Woods, on what you did all night.
8 You started off about 8 o'clock and you went down
9 and you had some cider. Isn't that right? A bottle of
10 cider?
11 A. That's that what my statement said.
12 Q. You weren't in the snooker club. You were outside the
13 snooker club?
14 A. Outside the snooker club.
15 Q. You were on your own, are you saying?
16 A. Yes, I was on my own. There would have been a crowd of
17 young ones would have hung about and drunk there at the
18 time.
19 Q. So you weren't on your own as such as a solitary
20 individual standing outside the snooker club drinking
21 cider?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. Well, you just said that there was a crowd of young
24 ones.
25 A. Yes, it would have been a drinking den, a drinking spot
41
1 for young people.
2 Q. A drinking den, did you say?
3 A. Well, a spot. Just whatever you want.
4 Q. You see, the impression that's given in your interview
5 with the police in 1997 is that you were entirely alone
6 all night from beginning to end and that you were at the
7 snooker club drinking cider on your own.
8 A. Yes, I was on my own, yes.
9 Q. You weren't on your own in the sense there were others
10 there. It is a drinking spot.
11 A. It would have been a drinking spot, yes. I can't
12 remember if there was people there or not, but it would
13 have been a drinking spot, yes.
14 Q. I mean, it would have been a lonely enough thing to be
15 just standing on your own drinking cider, wouldn't it?
16 A. Well, that's the way I was.
17 Q. But there were others there to keep you company nearby?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. No. Then you got the bus about an hour later, around
20 9 o'clock, to take to you the Coach Inn. Isn't that
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You have already said that there were people on the bus
24 that you recognised?
25 A. Yes.
42
1 Q. As a 17 year old, it would have been a comfortable
2 situation to be getting on a bus with people that you
3 knew who were all going to the Coach. At least you
4 weren't going entirely on your own, sure you weren't?
5 A. It was a bus full of people, yes.
6 Q. It would be a solitary enough thing just to be going as
7 a complete lone individual, wouldn't it?
8 A. Well, I was on my own, yes.
9 Q. Except there were maybe 40 to 50 other people on the
10 bus.
11 A. I don't know how many people was on the bus.
12 Q. Can you remember, was it fairly full?
13 A. I can't remember if it was full or half full or
14 whatever.
15 Q. There was a number of people. Isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then you go to the Coach Inn and you are there for maybe
18 a good four hours. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You are there from 9 o'clock until some time after
21 1 o'clock?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. You have said that the purpose of your sort of mission
24 for the night was to find a woman. Isn't that right?
25 A. That's right, yes.
43
1 Q. If you want to find a woman, you need to talk to
2 a woman, don't you?
3 A. Of course, yes.
4 Q. So that would have involved some social interaction, if
5 you understand me. You must have been talking to
6 people?
7 A. Oh, certainly, yes.
8 Q. So you weren't on your own all night there, sure you
9 weren't?
10 A. I was in a nightclub full of people.
11 Q. Of course. You were talking to people.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were in company.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you had a fair amount to drink there, did you not?
16 You mentioned to the police you had a couple of bottles
17 of Hooch?
18 A. I had a right drink in me.
19 Q. What's Hooch?
20 A. Hooch?
21 Q. You mentioned that to the police in 1997, a couple of
22 bottles of Hooch?
23 A. That's that alcopop, I think. I think it had just come
24 out then in 1997.
25 Q. You had a right few pints after that?
44
1 A. I can't remember what I drunk. I just know I got
2 pissed.
3 Q. You told the police you had a right load of pints in
4 you?
5 A. If I told the police that, yes.
6 Q. Did you get a woman?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you come back on the bus and you said you were on
9 your own in the bus?
10 A. I think I fell asleep on the bus. I can't remember what
11 happened.
12 Q. At least on the bus you are in company. There are
13 plenty of people on the bus?
14 A. There probably was, yes.
15 Q. Now, if you are asleep on the bus, did you wake up when
16 the bus stopped, can you remember, or did somebody give
17 you a shake?
18 A. I can't remember that, no.
19 Q. I take it you must have woken up to get off the bus?
20 A. I did. I obviously woke up.
21 Q. You head down home. So you are heading down High Street
22 and your intention is to turn up at the junction of
23 Thomas Street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you have maintained right from the very beginning
45
1 since 1997, since you first spoke about this -- I am
2 coming to that in a moment -- 16th May 1997, that you
3 were entirely alone. You walked down the road alone.
4 You weren't with anybody.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You didn't see or notice Andrew Allen or Rory Robinson
7 at all?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, are you telling us the truth about that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You are absolutely sure Andrew Allen and Rory Robinson
12 and you weren't walking down the road more or less?
13 A. There could have been a number of people behind me.
14 I can't remember. I was on my own heading up the road
15 to go home.
16 Q. Could they have been a few feet from you?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You see, Andrew Allen had the impression you were
19 together?
20 A. I wasn't with anyone. I was on my own. I had to be
21 home.
22 Q. Just have a look at page [07302]. You have seen this
23 page already.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this adding to what we have got or simply
25 repeating? If it is the latter, we don't need
46
1 a repetition.
2 MR McGRORY: I am conscious of that, sir. You have already
3 seen this. Andrew Allen told the police, and the
4 Inquiry has already put this to you:
5 "I went to the Coach ... I was going up the town.
6 I was going up. There was with me two other boys."
7 I am going to suggest you were one of those boys,
8 and this is an important point that I want to talk about
9 a little bit, what comes next at the -- forgive me,
10 Mr Chairman. Mr Underwood did not dwell on it at any
11 great length.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
13 MR McGRORY: That is what Andrew Allen's impression was of
14 what you, the three boys, the two boys he was with, were
15 doing at the corner. If we look at the top paragraph:
16 "... we stopped just at the wee bakery at the corner
17 of Thomas Street waiting for the other crowd to catch
18 up."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see that.
21 Q. Andrew Allen thought he was with you and Rory Robinson.
22 A. I was alone.
23 Q. You keep saying that. You were waiting for the other
24 crowd to catch up. Are you absolutely certain the three
25 of you didn't stop to wait for the other crowd to catch
47
1 up?
2 A. If anyone was behind me, they were behind me. I was on
3 my own going up Thomas Street to go home alone.
4 Q. Could I have page [09128], please?
5 This is the statement of Pauline Newell. Do you
6 know Pauline Newell?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. She made a statement on 20th May to the police. If the
9 text could be highlighted, please. About the middle of
10 the page there:
11 "I was going in through the door of Boss Hoggs.
12 I looked up the street towards the church ..."
13 Do you see that? It is about seven or eight
14 lines down:
15 "I looked up the street towards the church ..."
16 Do you see that? Do you see that, Mr Woods
17 A. No, I can't find it. Yes, I have got it.
18 Q. Your hand is at it there:
19 "... and saw Rory Robinson, Davy Woods and a fellow
20 I know as 'Fonzy' walking up the street towards
21 Thomas Street."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. I see that, yes.
24 Q. She got the impression you were together?
25 A. Well, I was on my own.
48
1 Q. We are not just talking about Andrew Allen. We are
2 talking about Pauline Newell's impression.
3 A. That's their impressions.
4 Q. You see, I want to put this to you, Mr Woods. Let's
5 make this clear. I am not suggesting to you that you
6 were involved in the vicious attack on Robert Hamill
7 when he was on the ground that led to his death.
8 Do you understand that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let's just make that clear. But there is a body of
11 evidence which would suggest that Rory Robinson and
12 Andrew Allen were involved in that attack.
13 Now, are you aware of that?
14 A. Yes. I know they were in prison, yes.
15 Q. That evidence comes principally from two individuals,
16 one called Timothy Jameson and another called
17 Tracey Clarke. Do you know of those two individuals?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know them at the time?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you sure about that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now Timothy Jameson gave a statement to the police in
24 the days after this incident in which he suggested that
25 he saw Andrew Allen very much involved in the attack on
49
1 Robert Hamill when he was on the ground.
2 Did you become aware of that?
3 A. I didn't know. Whenever this attack was happening,
4 I seen none of it. I was indoors.
5 Q. But did you become aware of it in the days after the
6 incident?
7 A. I become aware of it -- yes.
8 Q. Because Andrew Allen, in fact, was arrested for this
9 murder on 10th May. Isn't that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Weren't you aware of that?
12 A. I was aware of that.
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I'm sure I was, yes.
15 Q. I'm sure you were. I am sure word would have spread
16 around Portadown --
17 A. After that happened, yes.
18 Q. -- that that happened and a man had been killed and
19 a number of people who got off the bus were suspected of
20 doing it.
21 Now, Rory Robinson was also charged with this
22 murder. Isn't that right?
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. You were aware of that?
25 A. Yes.
50
1 Q. The evidence that put Rory Robinson in the frame for
2 this murder came from a lady called Tracey Clarke. Were
3 you aware of that at the time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. But you certainly were aware that Rory Robinson was
6 suspected of being involved in the murder?
7 A. Yes. I heard that.
8 Q. Is it the case, Mr Woods, that you are putting as much
9 distance between yourself and these two individuals as
10 possible?
11 A. If they were involved in an attack, it has nothing to do
12 with me.
13 Q. No, but what I am suggesting to you is --
14 A. What I am saying is, I was alone. If they were behind
15 me and think they were with me, they weren't.
16 Q. What I am suggesting to you is you were not telling us
17 the truth by saying you were alone, that you were, in
18 fact, with these two individuals.
19 A. No, I wasn't. I was on my own.
20 Q. I am going to suggest to you that, in fact, the three of
21 you did wait at the corner. You did stop at the corner,
22 as Andrew Allen told the police?
23 A. I was up Thomas Street trying to get home when
24 I stopped.
25 Q. Well, tell me this. If your version of events is
51
1 accurate, you were on your own minding your own
2 business, turning the corner and heading up
3 Thomas Street when you were confronted by a crowd of
4 people shouting coming down. Isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You say banging the door of Jamesons. That is what say
7 now?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You were assaulted?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Just out of the blue?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why didn't you go to the police?
14 A. Because I was took into my sister's house.
15 Q. Yes, you may have been, but why didn't you go to the
16 police about the assault?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: When are you suggesting he should have done
18 that?
19 MR McGRORY: The following day.
20 A. I just don't bother with that.
21 Q. Sorry?
22 A. Because I just didn't.
23 Q. You just didn't.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Might it have been because you were afraid to go to the
52
1 police?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Because, in fact, you were with Rory Robinson and
4 Andrew Allen when this all started, were you not?
5 A. No. I was on my own trying to go home.
6 Q. You see, one of the other difficulties we have about
7 your version of events is that according to
8 Andrew Allen's version --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you have made this point, you know.
10 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir. I am going to make a different
11 point about Andrew Allen's version, with respect.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I shall listen for a minute or two to the
13 questions to see if they are really adding.
14 MR McGRORY: You see, according to Andrew Allen, all three
15 were attacked: Andrew Allen, Rory Robinson and you,
16 virtually simultaneously at the same time, all three of
17 you. That's what he said.
18 A. That's what he said. If they were behind me, they were
19 behind me. I was on my own and I was attacked.
20 Q. Well, is it the case, Mr Woods, that all three of you,
21 in fact, were involved in an incident with a number of
22 Catholics coming down the street?
23 A. Whoever was behind me was behind me. I was on my own.
24 MR McGRORY: Okay. Thank you.
25 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
53
1 MR McCOMB: No questions.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising out of that, sir.
4 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me with one thing? Unless
6 it is in what you said to the police but hasn't been
7 referred to, I don't think you told the police that you
8 were taken into your sister's flat. Am I wrong about
9 that, Mr Underwood?
10 MR UNDERWOOD: I am so sorry, sir. I was talking about
11 another point. I didn't hear.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you told the police you were
13 taken into your sister's flat?
14 A. I said that the first time round.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You told the police that?
16 A. Yes, when I was told to describe the night.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes your evidence.
18 A. Is that everything?
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 MR UNDERWOOD: We are going to Stacey Bridgett. I know he
21 will take a little while. I know I will be asked for
22 a comfort break.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: It is better to have it now than to interrupt
24 the evidence.
25 (11.35 am)
54
1 (Short break)
2 (11.50 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Stacey Bridgett, please.
4 MR STACEY BRIDGETT (affirmed)
5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
7 I will be asking you questions to start with and, when
8 I am finished, some other people may ask some too.
9 Can I ask your full names, please?
10 A. Stacey Bridgett.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 We are interested in events of 27th April 1997 and
13 in particular about what happened in the junction in
14 Portadown where Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street meet
15 the main street, in particular, what it is that police
16 officers could have seen and what they might have done
17 to prevent Mr Hamill getting killed.
18 Now, can I ask you, first of all, whether you were
19 passing through town that night on your way back from
20 the Coach Inn?
21 A. I was, yes.
22 Q. You have been interviewed about this a lot, I know.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. One of the things you said in interview is that you were
25 "happy drunk"?
55
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Is that a fair description?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can I ask you to look at a model that will come up on
5 the screen?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. This is taken from a series of photographs and it sets
8 out the buildings and shopfronts as they were back then
9 in April 1997. If we can just do a circuit,
10 360 degrees, you can get a view. This is
11 Number 7 Bakery at the top of Thomas Street, Jamesons,
12 looking down Thomas Street, Eastwoods Clothing. You can
13 look up to the church, West Street, Clarks, Instep.
14 That's the junction and there is Woodhouse Street going
15 up.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The Alliance & Leicester on the one side and Halifax on
18 the other. We have put a Land Rover there.
19 Now, I want to take this in stages and ask you,
20 first of all, about your way up the street.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Again, because you have been interviewed so many times,
23 I will cut through it. You were with Dean Forbes
24 I think?
25 A. That's correct, yes.
56
1 Q. One of the things the Panel has to try to understand is
2 the timing of everybody coming up the street --
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. -- and how many people had managed to get by this
5 junction by the time the fighting started, how many
6 people might have been left down the Boss Hogg's end
7 before it started.
8 Can you help us with what was happening as you were
9 walking up? Were there other people ahead you?
10 A. Not that I can remember, no.
11 Q. Again, I can take it shortly, because you have done this
12 in interviews. I think you stopped at a couple of
13 fast-food places but without actually getting any food.
14 Is that right?
15 A. Uh-huh. I think I stopped at Boss Hoggs maybe.
16 Q. If I can just remind you, if we look at page [07151],
17 you are right to say that you have certainly said in
18 interview that you stopped at Boss Hoggs. I just want
19 to remind you of this question and answer in
20 an interview.
21 The second use of the word ,"Bridgett", there you
22 say:
23 "It was the Woodhouse Street side because I went to
24 Herron's. I was going to get something to eat, but
25 I didn't bother, I just came up the town."
57
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So can you recall now then that there were two that you
3 stopped at, but you didn't get anything?
4 A. Yes, yes. Probably, yes.
5 Q. Can you help us with a recollection about this? Were
6 those places busy? Were there people off the bus that
7 were lining up in them?
8 A. I don't honestly know. Whenever people did get off the
9 bus, a lot of them went to Herron's and a lot did go to
10 Boss Hoggs. Maybe I did go to Herron's at the time.
11 I am not sure, but I do remember going to Boss Hoggs.
12 Q. Again, I am asking you this so we can get some sort of
13 idea how quickly you might have been up the town
14 compared with people who didn't stop?
15 A. No problem.
16 Q. Then if we look at page [07155], again, it is part of
17 a police interview. Three lines down there is your name
18 and then you are answering a question:
19 "Question: How you did you know about Protestants
20 and Catholics?"
21 "Answer: Because -- well, I seen like there were
22 boys walking up to Mark's church. They must have been
23 walking home too. I don't know where they live.
24 Whenever I was getting offside, they were coming down
25 and I seen a couple of boys coming down from St --
58
1 I think it must have been St Paddy's Hall. You know,
2 they were just coming down the Thomas Street area.
3 "Question: You seen them coming down the street?
4 "Answer: Well, I just, you know, glanced and they
5 were just coming down from it. I didn't have time to
6 really look."
7 As I say, I'm trying to take this in stages. We
8 will come on to the incident where you talked to people
9 in the Land Rover and then the fighting --
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. -- but can you just help us, in relation to all the
12 events of the night, when it was you saw people coming
13 up from what you took to be St Patrick's Hall?
14 A. I can't remember at this stage.
15 Q. Can you remember seeing people coming up from
16 St Patrick's Hall at all?
17 A. Not at this -- not at this time, no, I can't remember.
18 Q. Then there comes a point, I think, where, if we go back
19 to the model, you come up to a Land Rover.
20 Now, we have put the Land Rover there. One of the
21 reasons we have put it in the model is to get people to
22 say whether that's an accurate position for it.
23 Can you help us on that?
24 A. Yes, that would be an accurate position, yes.
25 Q. You were on the Woodhouse Street side of the road,
59
1 I think, as you came up to it.
2 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Can you tell us what happened then, please, as you
4 approached it?
5 A. Well, whenever we approached there, we came across a guy
6 who was going from Thomas Street to Woodhouse Street.
7 We sort of bumped into that guy and that guy had said
8 that he didn't want any trouble, and I basically said
9 I didn't want any trouble either and the man proceeded
10 to walk on up Woodhouse Street on up home. It was then
11 that I started to chat with the police in the
12 Land Rover.
13 Q. Okay. I just want to let you have the chance of dealing
14 with what he says about that and what the police say
15 about it?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. If we look at page [09091], you will see this is the
18 first page of a statement made by that man. It is
19 Mr Mallon --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- on 12th May 1997. If we go over the page [09092],
22 what he says is that he basically stopped the Land Rover
23 to alert the people in it to the possibility of trouble.
24 Then, if we take the first half, in the first line he
25 says:
60
1 "I crossed to them. I don't know whether I went in
2 front of the Land Rover or not, but the police knew that
3 I had waved at them. A policewoman opened the front
4 passenger's door and I told her that there was likely
5 people to be coming from St Patrick's Hall. As I turned
6 to walk away, I was approached by a youth. There was
7 a group of maybe four or five with him. They all looked
8 to be about 18 or 19 years of age. The youth that
9 approached me asked me where I was going. I felt
10 threatened by the whole situation. I was apprehensive.
11 I saw that he was carrying a glass bottle of Buckfast in
12 his right hand. I was concerned that I might be hit
13 with the bottle, although this youth didn't make any
14 attempt to hit me. Because I was concerned about the
15 bottle, I held my hands out in front of me. I told the
16 youth I was going home and that I didn't want any
17 hassle. I just wanted to get away from them. He said
18 to me, "Stand here a while". I immediately went at that
19 stage. As I was walking away, I was aware that
20 a policeman had got out of the Land Rover."
21 Now, let's take this in parts. This looks like the
22 meeting you had with him.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you help us with whether there were four or five
25 people with you?
61
1 A. There was only two. There was me and Dean Forbes.
2 Q. Did you have a bottle?
3 A. I cannot remember. I have always said that I didn't
4 have, but, I mean, there is a slight possibility that
5 I did, but I would say no, that I didn't. I can't
6 remember having a bottle.
7 Q. In those days, did you drink Buckfast?
8 A. Not really, no.
9 Q. Or cider?
10 A. I would have drunk cider sometimes. I wasn't a Buckfast
11 drinker.
12 Q. Can you help us about why that man would have taken you
13 to be a potential threat to him?
14 A. I don't honestly know why. Just maybe because that area
15 was known to be a flash point area. I don't know.
16 I mean, whenever I take it he thought I was a threat,
17 I was just assuring him that I was no threat to him,
18 which I wasn't. It just happened that we met together.
19 Q. That part I just read to you concludes with him saying,
20 as he was walking away, he was aware a policeman had got
21 out of the Land Rover.
22 Again, I will come to the discussion you had with
23 the policeman in the Land Rover, but was he right about
24 that? Was a police officer getting out at that stage?
25 A. There was no policeman got out of the Land Rover.
62
1 Q. Okay. Then if we look at page [06332], this is one of
2 the policemen in the Land Rover. You can see halfway
3 down there:
4 "As I moved from Market Street into High Street,
5 a male, approximately mid-30s, crossed the road in front
6 of us mouthing something. Reserve Constable Cornett
7 opened her door and the male said, 'There's a crowd
8 coming down Thomas Street from St Pat's'.
9 "At this time I was aware of two youths coming from
10 the Halifax. They approached the male who had spoken to
11 us in the mouth of Woodhouse Street. One I know as
12 Stacey Bridgett was face-to-face with the male. This
13 had been unprovoked. Reserve Constable Cornett shouted
14 out to Stacey and the other youth, who then walked off.
15 The male then proceeded down Woodhouse Street and the
16 youths came over and spoke to Reserve Constable Cornett.
17 I noted that Stacey had a bottle of cider in his
18 hand ..."
19 So he, of course, just says there is two of you, not
20 five or six.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. He says you are face-to-face with the male and this was
23 unprovoked. Now, we have not heard from him yet to see
24 what he means by "unprovoked" --
25 A. Uh-huh.
63
1 Q. -- but you can see the sense of that, that he thought at
2 the time you were threatening him. You are quite clear
3 you weren't?
4 A. I was not threatening him. I was face-to-face because
5 we had a conversation and we were looking at each other.
6 We were not face-to-face because I was provoking him or
7 anything like that.
8 Q. He goes on to say the woman police officer who is there
9 shouted out at you and the other youth -- that's
10 Dean Forbes presumably -- and you then walked off, but
11 then came back.
12 A. That's not true. Denise Cornett did not shout at me.
13 We voluntarily approached the Land Rover to speak to the
14 police.
15 Q. Did you know her?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I think you knew one of the officers. There is
18 an officer who was in the back of it. We are calling
19 him P40. Do you know who I mean by that?
20 A. [P40].
21 Q. We are calling him P40. All right?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Did you know him?
24 A. I knew him from about the town, yes.
25 Q. What happened then? You just turned, did you,
64
1 immediately from the man you had been talking to and
2 went to the Land Rover?
3 A. Yes, I voluntarily went over and talked to the
4 Land Rover. We had talked to the police on different
5 occasions around the town. I knew [Cornett] and
6 [Cornett] knew me. It was an amicable
7 conversation.
8 Q. Can you recall what you were chatting about?
9 A. Yes. We were chatting about -- I think I was standing
10 at the passenger door and she began to remark on my
11 clothes. Because I was wearing a Ralph Lauren shirt and
12 Replay jeans, and she began to say things about my
13 clothes, things being stylish, and things like that.
14 She was just making comments, it was all general
15 chit-chat. I am not too sure what other sorts of things
16 we were talking about, but it was all an amicable
17 conversation.
18 Q. She was in the passenger side we know.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was her door or window open?
21 A. Her door was open.
22 Q. Do you know what was going on with the rest of the
23 Land Rover? Were the doors shut otherwise?
24 A. I can't remember. I know the driver's door was shut.
25 I am not too sure about the back door. They could have
65
1 been shut or open. I am not positive.
2 Q. Were you conscious of anything else going on at the
3 time? Any people walking by or noise or anything.
4 A. No, we were just looking into the Land Rover and we
5 didn't see anything.
6 Q. Something then happened, I understand. What can you
7 tell us happened?
8 A. Whenever we were talking to the Land Rover, a guy came
9 over and either opened the Land Rover door or else it
10 was slightly ajar and he pulled it open and he grabbed
11 the policeman and said something about, "Yous sat and
12 watched. Yous didn't do nothing", or something like
13 that. He was throwing a wobbler, basically.
14 Q. Did you see where he came from?
15 A. He had obviously came from the other side, the
16 Thomas Street side, because, if it had been any other
17 side, we probably would have seen him. It was my blind
18 side. I couldn't see the other side of the Land Rover,
19 so he must have came from there.
20 Q. You have previously described him as being 30 to 40 in
21 a blue suit and a shirt and tie, and you thought he was
22 Catholic.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us why you thought he was Catholic?
25 A. I don't know. I would assume that it was something that
66
1 he maybe said, or -- I can't remember now, but, you
2 know, I assumed he was a Catholic at that time.
3 Q. We can look at the witness statement the Inquiry has
4 drafted for you. It is page [80116]. What you told us
5 in there is:
6 "When I was standing at the passenger's door of the
7 police vehicle, another man came and pulled open the
8 driver's door and he was shouting at the driver,
9 Constable Neill. The man was saying, 'Are you going to
10 be sitting around?' He was giving them a real bad time,
11 but I didn't know what he was talking about because
12 I couldn't see anything from my side of the Land Rover."
13 It is obviously very important from the police point
14 of view to be able to have the Panel understand what
15 they might have missed.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Because obviously this man is asserting that they have
18 done something wrong.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Can you please help us in any way about this, whether
21 there was any noise at that stage, anything going on?
22 A. We didn't hear anything that was going on. I didn't
23 hear it and the police definitely didn't hear it,
24 because they were talking to me. We were having
25 an amicable conversation. We did not know anything that
67
1 was going on, if anything. I don't know.
2 Q. Can you give us any idea of time about the period in
3 which -- starting with which you went over to the
4 Land Rover and ending at the point where this man pulled
5 the door open?
6 A. It could have been anything from 30 seconds to
7 five minutes. I just can't be clear about it at this
8 time. I know it was just maybe a couple of minutes,
9 just brief.
10 Q. Okay. Then if we look at page [07180], and again it is
11 one of your interviews.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. If we pick it up from halfway down. The word "Bridgett"
14 is there and you are answering a question and you say:
15 "He", that's the man we were just talking about,
16 "just came down. He either opened it or it was already
17 opened.
18 "Question: What did you think? Did you think the
19 policeman had been assaulted by this man, did you?
20 "Answer: I don't know. That's what I said to my
21 ma. I thought that maybe he had been smacked or
22 something because, when I seen him, he was pointing in
23 and I heard, like, this thumping. I just went away from
24 it because I seen that he had done something. I know he
25 had done something at the Land Rover."
68
1 Going over the page [07181]:
2 "Maybe he gripped them or smacked them or something,
3 but when he done it, he came round the front of the
4 Land Rover towards me.
5 "Question: What did you do then?
6 "Answer: I says, 'Right. Get into them'. I let
7 on that I was a Catholic because I thought he was going
8 to hit me, and he went on round past me. He was
9 actually, you know, like, High Street was there. He was
10 on this side of the Land Rover, Woodhouse Street. Maybe
11 he thought I was a Catholic because I thought I was
12 going to get smacked. He went on round past me."
13 Picking it up at the bottom of the page, you say:
14 "He just went round the back of the Land Rover and
15 away and then I just went round the back of the
16 Land Rover, you know, to go up the street and I couldn't
17 see him."
18 So is that what happened?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So he came round the front of the Land Rover after this?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were worried he might have a go at you?
23 A. Yes, I thought I was going to get it.
24 Q. But he didn't?
25 A. No, he didn't.
69
1 Q. Did you see where he went?
2 A. I think he just continued on round the back of the
3 Land Rover and back towards the Thomas Street area.
4 Q. Back where you assume he came from?
5 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
6 Q. Give us an impression of what else was going on at that
7 stage? By this point, was there any noise?
8 A. At that point, I sort of proceeded to the back of
9 Land Rover and then I could see just the whole scuffle
10 sort of going on.
11 Q. Let's go back to the model, can we? Can you help us --
12 if we do a screen shot of this, it will give you the
13 ability to write on the screen, if you want to.
14 While that's being done, you went to the back of the
15 Land Rover then, did you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What could you see?
18 A. Just there was a whole crowd -- can I circle it there?
19 Q. Please do.
20 A. Just in the whole -- you would have had it all in around
21 this area and the side of -- a wee bit on this side of
22 the street, but more over here. There were several
23 fights that just broke out.
24 Q. Can I have marked out where you say "more over here",
25 number 1?
70
1 A. Here?
2 Q. It will be done for you. Don't worry.
3 What did you think was happening?
4 A. Just it was a killing match. People just punching and
5 kicking each other, and it was just a free-for-all.
6 Q. Give us an idea of how many people you thought were
7 involved?
8 A. It could have been anything from 10 to 30 people. It
9 was just, you know -- I can only estimate it at that.
10 I can't be 100%.
11 Q. Did you have the impression this was an equal fight or
12 that this was 20 or 30 people on to one or what?
13 A. I can't recollect at the time. It just seemed to be --
14 I wouldn't -- I am not sure. It just seemed to be
15 a free-for-all. That's all I can describe it as, you
16 know?
17 Q. How noisy was it?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. If that had been going on while you had been standing on
20 the other side of the Land Rover, would you have been
21 able to hear it?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know, but all I can tell you is
23 that, when I was at the Land Rover, we didn't hear
24 anything.
25 Q. Can you give us any more help about the man who pulled
71
1 the door open? Because he is a man we can't find or at
2 least he is a man we can't identify.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Can you help us with his height compared with yours?
5 A. From what I can remember, he might have been slightly
6 taller than me, just a stocky guy. I just know he was
7 wearing -- I think it was like a suit and a tie.
8 Q. How tall are you? How tall were you then?
9 A. Probably the same height, maybe 5' 9". Maybe a bit
10 taller. I could be wrong. I am only estimating.
11 Q. Okay, but he was stocky and wearing a suit and shirt and
12 tie?
13 A. And tie, yes.
14 Q. Hair colour? Any help on that?
15 A. I haven't a clue.
16 Q. Or hairstyle?
17 A. I haven't a clue.
18 Q. Then something happened to you, I think, after that.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was that?
21 A. I got punched at the back of the Land Rover.
22 Q. How did that happen?
23 A. Some guy came over, some small guy, some stocky guy and
24 just punched me on the nose, punched me on the bridge of
25 the nose.
72
1 Q. So where was he coming from, do you think?
2 A. From the -- whenever I got to the back of the
3 Land Rover, there just seemed to be people everywhere.
4 I am not too sure where he came from. I assume it was
5 from the Thomas Street side. I can't be sure. I just
6 got a drive in the nose basically.
7 Q. Where did he go to?
8 A. I don't know after that, because I run.
9 Q. Okay. Tell me what you did then.
10 A. I run up the street.
11 Q. To where?
12 A. I think it was over -- can I mark it?
13 Q. Yes. If it is on this photograph, yes. Otherwise, we
14 will have to change it. Let's go back to the model
15 again. If we pan round to the left, tell us where to
16 stop.
17 A. Yes. Sort of --
18 Q. Again, we will need to do a screen shot before you can
19 mark on it, if you don't mind waiting a moment. Right.
20 You have control of it now.
21 A. All I know, it was further up on this side of the
22 street. I am not too sure. I think I said in my
23 statement it was Dorothy Perkins or somewhere.
24 I am not too sure what route I took to get up there.
25 All I know is I went over the central reservation.
73
1 I don't know if I went that way or this way. I was just
2 running for ...
3 Q. Can you help us with what the police did?
4 A. At that point in time?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I can't remember really.
7 Q. If we look at page [07240], again, it is one of your
8 interviews, and taking it halfway down the page, you
9 say:
10 "Answer: Yes. Well, when I got struck, I run up to
11 sort of look around. There was people. Just
12 a free-for-all.
13 "Question: A free-for-all, you would describe it
14 as?
15 "Answer: Yes.
16 "Question: And you stood and calmed yourself, and
17 did you return back again?
18 "Answer: I did to try and talk to P40.
19 "Question: At what place? Where was P40 at the
20 time you went to speak to him?"
21 Overleaf [07241]:
22 "Answer: In the middle of the road.
23 "Question: He was in the middle of the road. So
24 you made your way from Dorothy Perkins?
25 "Answer: It was just down a bit.
74
1 "Question: Out into the middle of Market Street?
2 "Answer: Yes.
3 "Question: Now, the road is divided. There is even
4 a traffic island there now.
5 "Answer: Yes, at the division. He was round about
6 where the division is, but I was in the middle of the
7 road, you know, where Dorothy Perkins is, letting my
8 nose bleed.
9 "Question: Right.
10 "Answer: And I went round and I seen P40 and
11 I says, 'P40, look at my nose'. I tried to come up
12 behind him but he says, 'Get offside'."
13 Can you recall that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So he was out of the Land Rover by that point, after you
16 had gone up the road a bit, calmed down a bit --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- and walked back towards the Land Rover a little?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What else was going on at that stage? Can you help us?
21 A. I can't really remember. I can't remember if the fight
22 was still going on or if it had stopped or ...
23 Q. Again, it is very important for the police that the
24 Panel understand what evidence there may be about what
25 help they gave.
75
1 A. Yes, I understand that.
2 Q. You have got P40 out. Do you recall any of the other
3 officers being out of the Land Rover?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recall any other police doing anything?
6 A. Whenever I was letting my nose bleed, I sort of looked
7 up when I seen the fight was sort of going on. What I
8 can sort of look back on now, I think the police were
9 out of the Land Rover, but I don't know what they were
10 doing or -- because I was sort of -- you know, sort of
11 looking up, because I was letting my nose bleed. The
12 blood was teeming out of me.
13 From what I could see -- from what I can recollect
14 now, there was people and there seemed to be police
15 there, in fact.
16 Q. What happened with the fighting? Did it continue as you
17 saw it or was there some sort of development?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. If we look at page [80117], it is the statement drafted
20 for you by the Inquiry. In paragraph 20 you say:
21 "I do not remember seeing anyone lying on the ground
22 when I saw the fighting. I did not get involved in the
23 fighting, neither did I kick or punch anyone on the
24 ground."
25 Now, is that right?
76
1 A. Yes. I can't remember seeing anybody on the ground.
2 Q. Did you get involved in any fighting?
3 A. I didn't, no.
4 Q. Apart from going -- you say you went to Dorothy Perkins.
5 You went back a little to talk to P40. He told you to
6 get offside. What did you do then?
7 A. I came back up the street again.
8 Q. Do you mean up towards the church?
9 A. Up towards St Mark's Church, yes.
10 Q. At any point, did you get outside Eastwoods?
11 A. I don't think so. I can't fully remember. I know
12 I walked towards the Eastwoods direction because I seen
13 P40, you know, to talk to him. Then, whenever he told
14 me to get offside, I went to complain about how I got my
15 nose busted. He told me to get offside so I proceeded
16 to come up the street.
17 Q. At page [07194], back in one of your police interviews,
18 just over halfway down, you say:
19 "Answer: Sure, the fighting was at Eastwoods.
20 I was away up at Dorothy Perkins there. There was
21 nobody there.
22 "Question: But you had to cross. You crossed over
23 towards the whole fracas?
24 "Answer: I wasn't worried where I was running to
25 as long as I got away from the man that punched me on
77
1 the nose. I was worried as long as I was up, a clear
2 distance away from him."
3 So you are clear, are you, that you kept away from
4 the fighting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. There is no possibility you were involved in it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You didn't see anyone on the ground?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can I show you a statement that was made by
11 Jonathan Wright. It is at page [09141]. Did you know
12 him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If we take the bottom half -- just a couple of lines up
15 from there -- he said:
16 "I could see a fight -- this is a statement of
17 15th May 1997, I should say:
18 "I could see a fight further down the town in the
19 middle of the street between Thomas Street and
20 Woodhouse Street. I was about 30 yards from the fight.
21 There were about 20 to 30 people in the middle of the
22 street. I saw a person standing behind the crowd in the
23 middle of the street. This man was wearing a blue shirt
24 and a striped tie. He was wearing dark trousers which
25 appeared smart. This man was shouting towards the crowd
78
1 of Protestants to come on. There was fighting going on
2 in the crowd he was shouting at. I would say he was
3 approximately 25 years old and had very short hair,
4 about number 2 cut. Marc", that is Marc Hobson, "then
5 left me and ran down into the crowd fighting in the
6 middle of the road."
7 Did you know Marc Hobson?
8 A. I do know him, yes.
9 Q. "I stood there. I would have been standing at the edge
10 of the flowerbeds facing the Abbey National. I could
11 see Marc being pushed about by the crowd."
12 Overleaf [09142]:
13 "I saw him lift his hand and reach out for somebody.
14 I didn't see him hit anybody. There was a lot of
15 shouting, people shouting, 'Fenian bastards', and,
16 'Fenian cunts'. There was two or three from the
17 Catholic crowd shouting too. They were trading insults,
18 calling the Protestants 'Orange bastards'. The fighting
19 lasted about five to ten minutes."
20 Stopping there, is that a description you recognise
21 of what was going on?
22 A. Sort of, yes. I can just sort of remember, you know,
23 insults being traded "Fenian this", "Orange that". It
24 was just a bit of a free-for-all.
25 Q. Moving on:
79
1 "I saw Rory Robinson in the middle of the crowd. He
2 was running round like a headless chicken."
3 Did you know him?
4 A. I knew Rory, but I didn't see him.
5 Q. Then it goes on:
6 "I saw Stacey Bridgett trading punches with one
7 person. They were fighting a wee bit to the left of the
8 main fight, more towards the Alliance & Leicester
9 Building Society."
10 What do you say about that?
11 A. No, I wasn't trading punches, no. He has maybe seen me
12 getting a dig in the nose, but I wasn't trading punches,
13 unless I put my hands like this to stop getting hit.
14 But I wasn't trading punches. That's not true.
15 Q. Then it goes on:
16 "I saw a boy lying on the street at the mouth of
17 Thomas Street. He was lying on his chest and wasn't
18 moving. This fellow was wearing dark clothes. I saw
19 a police Land Rover parked on the main street at the
20 Halifax. There were about 5 to 6 policemen trying to
21 break the fight up. I saw people trying to push police
22 away from the main fracas. The mood of the crowd was
23 violent towards the police. I heard bottles being
24 smashed. The police got the crowd under control and the
25 crowd started leaving."
80
1 Now, does that help you about any police activity?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you -- do you have a recollection about bottles
4 smashing?
5 A. No. There may have been, but not that I heard. I can't
6 really remember, but there may have been.
7 Q. Did you recognise anybody that was involved in the
8 fighting?
9 A. No.
10 Q. If we look at page [17327], this is a statement made by
11 Tracey Clarke on 10th May 1997. If we can just take the
12 bottom quarter of this one. Did you know her?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know Allister Hanvey, her boyfriend?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Picking it up from the bottom there, three lines down,
17 she says:
18 "I would say that it was about 1.45 approx when we
19 were in West Street as the bus got in at about 1.30 am.
20 Around this time we heard shouting coming from the main
21 street. I can't remember what was said, but it was
22 something like, 'Fight, fight'. We all ran down to see
23 what was happening. When we got as far as the church
24 I could see a crowd", overleaf, [17328], just taking the
25 top half, "at the junction of Thomas Street/Market
81
1 Street. I met up with Stephen Bloomer at Poundstretcher
2 and I just sat down beside him. I saw two people lying
3 on the street. One was near the centre of the road and
4 the other was near the footpath close to Eastwoods. The
5 person I saw in the middle of the road I thought was
6 dead. He wasn't moving. It was at this time I saw a
7 number of persons gathered around the person lying in
8 the centre of the road. These persons were kicking the
9 person on the ground around the head and body. I saw
10 them jump on the person on the ground. They jumped all
11 over him and kicked him. I saw the persons who were
12 doing this and I can identify them as: (1) Dean Forbes,
13 (2) Allister Hanvey, (3) Stacey Bridgett, (4) 'Muck'",
14 that's Marc Hobson, "(5) Rory Robinson."
15 I take it you deny you were doing that and could
16 have been seen doing that by Tracey Clarke?
17 A. That statement is untrue.
18 Q. What about Dean Forbes, what happened to him?
19 A. I don't know. I sort of lost track of Dean after we had
20 been talking to the police. I don't know where he went.
21 Q. So that part of it could be true?
22 A. What part?
23 Q. That Dean Forbes was seen doing this?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Can you say that Allister Hanvey definitely wasn't doing
82
1 it?
2 A. I never seen Allister Hanvey.
3 Q. Or Marc Hobson?
4 A. I never seen any of that.
5 Q. Did you know Rory Robinson?
6 A. I knew him, yes.
7 Q. Did you see him there?
8 A. No. Not that I can -- not that I can remember. I may
9 have. I don't know. I can't remember.
10 Q. How is it you didn't recognise anybody in the crowd?
11 A. I don't know. It is just because whenever I got my nose
12 busted, I went up. My head was basically down letting
13 my nose bleed. I didn't recognise anybody.
14 Q. If we look at page is [07167], again it is part of your
15 police interviews. Picking it up from halfway down
16 there is a question:
17 "Question: The street lighting is quite good there.
18 you could identify people. I mean, even at a glance, if
19 you look over and see a scuffle, the first thing that
20 would come into your head is, 'There's whoever and
21 there's whoever in the middle of that'.
22 "Answer: I don't know the boys by name, a few boys
23 to see, like.
24 "Question: You know them to see?
25 "Answer: Yes.
83
1 "Question: Who's that? The boys that were
2 fighting?
3 "Answer: Aye."
4 Is that right, that you did recognise people to see,
5 but not by name?
6 A. I can't actually remember, but if I would have knew them
7 to see, I probably would have seen their faces about or
8 something. Probably people I didn't know personally.
9 I maybe would have recognised that face or something,
10 but I can't really remember.
11 Q. I want you now to look, please, at page [18040]. If we
12 can highlight all of it, it is not a document that you
13 created. It is a document that comes from a member of
14 the Director of Public Prosecutions staff. If we take
15 it from the top:
16 "I spoke by phone with Lawrence Marshall", who was
17 the forensic scientist, "this morning at around
18 11.30 am. He informed me as follows:
19 "A small spot of blood (identified as Bridgett's
20 blood) was found on Hamill's trouser leg one or two
21 inches above the bottom of the hem. It was a round spot
22 no bigger than a one pence coin. There was one other
23 spot of blood near to this spot, but it was not tested.
24 "The blood on the left trouser leg did not come from
25 Bridgett and was smeared and thus different from
84
1 Bridgett's spot.
2 "The fact that the blood was not in an elongated
3 shape means that there was nothing to indicate what
4 direction the blood came from.
5 "Mr Marshall was reluctant to offer any
6 interpretation as to how the blood got there, but said
7 it was consistent with Hamill lying on the ground and
8 a drop of Bridgett's blood falling as he stood over
9 Hamill."
10 Now, can you explain that for us?
11 A. I can't, no.
12 Q. You had a nosebleed, you accept?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. The best that the scientist could do was that it was
15 consistent, this drop of blood, with Mr Hamill lying on
16 the ground and a drop of your blood falling as you stood
17 over him.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. You tell us you didn't see anybody on the ground.
20 A. No. I accept that there was people on the ground, but
21 I didn't see anyone on the ground at that time.
22 Q. What do you say to this: that Tracey Clarke and
23 Timothy Jameson were telling the truth when they told
24 the police that you were involved in the fighting?
25 A. Timothy Jameson never said that. It was
85
1 Jonathan Wright.
2 Q. I am sorry. Jonathan Wright.
3 And that, involved in the fighting, you either were
4 standing over and kicking Mr Hamill while he was on the
5 ground or you were so close to him during the fighting
6 that your blood dripped on him?
7 A. Their statements are untrue.
8 Q. You have no explanation to offer about how your blood
9 could otherwise have got there?
10 A. No. It's really -- it is a question for a forensic
11 scientist. I can't explain it.
12 Q. Then I think somebody helped wipe your blood. Is that
13 right? A girl?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us where that was?
16 A. It was up at the Mandeville Street area.
17 Q. So there came a point where you left this scene --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- and got up to the Mandeville Street area.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Were you on your own as you walked up or did you go up
22 with people who had been pushed back or what?
23 A. I can't really remember. I think there was a crowd
24 there, but I sort of just dandered up on my own and the
25 police were sort of behind us.
86
1 Q. So there was police activity at that point, was there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they driving people up?
4 A. They weren't driving people up. They were just walking
5 and there was people were just walking in front of the
6 police.
7 Q. What was the atmosphere like during that?
8 A. It was calm, seemed to be calm, from what I can
9 remember.
10 Q. If we look at page [09225], please, this is a statement
11 made by one of the constables involved in that,
12 Mr Cooke. He made it on the morning of 27th April. If
13 we pick this up four lines down, he said:
14 "At 1.47 am on this date, I heard police", and he
15 gives the call sign, "call for urgent assistance at
16 Portadown town centre. I made my way to the scene,
17 arriving about three to four minutes later. In
18 Market Street, I saw two persons lying in the left-hand
19 carriageway near the junction with Thomas Street and
20 a crowd of approximately 30 to 40 people about ten feet
21 in front of them with several police officers in between
22 them trying to hold the crowd back. A police Land Rover
23 was parked across the road at the entrance to
24 Woodhouse Street. Two females and a male were close to
25 the injured persons. They were quite hysterical and
87
1 were shouting and screaming towards the crowd and were
2 shouting for an ambulance to be called. There was
3 broken glass lying around where the injured persons were
4 lying and around the police Land Rover. Persons in the
5 crowd were shouting and jeering toward the police and
6 the injured persons and the members of the crowd were
7 constantly trying to push past police to try and get
8 towards the injured persons."
9 Now, do you recollect any of that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. "The two males lying on the road seemed to be",
12 overleaf, [9226], "unconscious and both had blood around
13 their faces. Other police also arrived at the scene
14 around this time. I approached the crowd along with
15 other police and started to move them back towards
16 West Street. I recognised the following persons at the
17 front of the crowd: Stacey Bridgett. His nose was
18 bleeding."
19 What do you say about that?
20 A. I wasn't at the front of the crowd. I was there and my
21 nose was bleeding, but I wasn't at the front of the
22 crowd.
23 Q. He goes on to say there were some other people he
24 recognised, including Rory Robinson. Then he goes on
25 just under where the blacking out is:
88
1 "On several occasions while we were holding this
2 crowd back and trying to move them towards West Street,
3 I spoke to Robinson and [blank] and asked them to move
4 up the street. Both refused to move and each of them
5 tried to push past myself and other police on several
6 occasions."
7 If we go down to the final two lines:
8 "An ambulance subsequently arrived and attended to
9 the injured persons while we continued to hold and push
10 the crowd back."
11 Do you recall the ambulance?
12 A. Not at this stage. I know there was an ambulance there.
13 I vaguely remember it.
14 Q. You see, he has a very violent crowd there and you are
15 at the front of it, recognised with your nose bleeding,
16 people trying to push past the police, their being
17 pushed back. Is that not a situation you recognise?
18 A. No, I wasn't at the front of the crowd.
19 Q. Do you remember anybody shouting at you, any women
20 shouting at you, to the effect that you had jumped on
21 the head of one of the people on the ground?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you remember anybody shouting your name out,
24 "Stacey"?
25 A. No.
89
1 Q. Did you go to Tracy McAlpine's house afterwards?
2 A. I didn't party there, no.
3 Q. I think you know that one person suggests you were
4 there. That's Stephen Bloomer?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. You have had the opportunity, I think, to see the
7 statement in which he puts that. To be fair, he is the
8 only person who says that.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Your evidence is you weren't there. Is that it?
11 A. Stephen is just mistaken. He has probably seen me there
12 before.
13 Q. I want to ask you to look at page [07260], please. This
14 is an interview of 10th May of 1997. There is
15 a question at the top:
16 "Question: I understand that you have a sore foot.
17 Would that be right?
18 "Answer: Yes.
19 "Question: How did you receive the injury to your
20 foot?
21 "Answer: When I was in work.
22 "Question: When did you receive your injury to
23 your foot at work?
24 "Answer: A couple of weeks ago.
25 "Question: A couple of weeks ago would have
90
1 been -- a couple of weeks ago today would have been the
2 night of this event, it would have been.
3 "Answer: No, it would have been --
4 "Question: Would it have been before it or after it?
5 "Answer: It would have been after it probably.
6 I don't know."
7 Was that right? Did you hurt your foot on the
8 night?
9 A. On the night of?
10 Q. On the night of the kicking.
11 A. No, no. I hurt my foot in work.
12 Q. You are sure you didn't hurt it by kicking someone?
13 A. I am 100% positive.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
15 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
16 Questions by MR O'HARE
17 MR O'HARE: If I may just briefly.
18 Mr Bridgett, as I understand your evidence, when you
19 are having the conversation with the occupants of the
20 Land Rover, you are suddenly aware of this other man
21 pulling the door open on the driver's side of the
22 Land Rover. Isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In fact, you didn't know what he was on about, if I may
25 use that expression, because, when you were having this
91
1 conversation with Denise Cornett -- sorry -- P40 (sic), you
2 didn't hear anything untoward. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Nor did you see anything untoward?
5 A. No.
6 Q. In fact, I believe in response to Mr Underwood earlier
7 you said, "And the police definitely didn't hear
8 anything"?
9 A. No. If the police would have heard something, it would
10 have drew it to their attention and to my attention. We
11 didn't know that anything had happened.
12 Q. I take it then you decided to get offside, as it were,
13 and you went round the back of the Land Rover?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's when you saw this fighting starting?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So can we take it from that, then, that this fighting
18 really started in a flash, as it were?
19 A. I assume so, yes.
20 Q. Because there was nothing to indicate this prior to
21 going round the back of the Land Rover?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, as I understand your evidence also, the police then
24 were out of the Land Rover very quickly?
25 A. Can I ask, who do you represent? Sorry.
92
1 Q. Yes. I represent the individual police officers.
2 A. Okay. I just wasn't too sure.
3 Q. Am I right in suggesting to you that the police were out
4 of the Land Rover very quickly?
5 A. Whenever the guy pulled the policeman at the driver's
6 side, I think, from what I can remember, that the guy on
7 the driver's side got out, and I think the lady, the
8 policewoman got out.
9 I heard the back doors opening. You can -- if
10 anybody has ever heard a Land Rover opening, it is
11 a clunk that you'll not forget. I didn't actually see
12 them getting out, from what I can remember, but
13 I assumed they did.
14 Q. This conversation that you claim you had with
15 P40 further on up the street afterward, are you definite
16 about that?
17 A. 100%.
18 Q. I have to suggest you are mistaken about that.
19 A. No. It is true.
20 MR O'HARE: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Bridgett, why did you want to know for
22 whom Mr O'Hare was acting?
23 A. I just didn't know. I have sort of been reading
24 transcripts. You know, whenever people have been
25 getting up, they would say, "I represent such and such".
93
1 I just wasn't too sure.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Why did you want to know?
3 A. I was just unsure who he was.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Did it matter?
5 A. No. It was just a curious question. That's all. It
6 was nothing.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
8 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
9 MR McGRORY: Mr Bridgett, I am going to tell you whom
10 I represent and that's the Hamill family?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now, you have been following these proceedings very
13 closely obviously.
14 A. Just bits and pieces.
15 Q. You have been reading transcripts?
16 A. A couple of times.
17 Q. Taking an interest in what has been said obviously?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. You have read the papers that you have been served with
20 in advance of giving evidence. Isn't that right?
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. You were able to very quickly tell Mr Underwood that
23 Timothy Jameson did not say a particular thing. Isn't
24 that right?
25 A. Yes.
94
1 Q. So you have familiarised yourself with who said what?
2 A. I have Timothy Jameson's statements.
3 Q. Of course. And Tracey Clarke's?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You are very well aware of what Tracey Clarke has said
6 about you, aren't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now if a man is lying on the ground and has given the
9 appearance that he is already dead, might already be
10 dead, he is very still, and there are people kicking at
11 him and jumping on his head, would you describe that as
12 a serious assault?
13 A. It would be, yes.
14 Q. If someone was to jump on someone, in particular jump on
15 their head, they were intending to do him some harm.
16 Isn't that right?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. I am not going to beat about the bush. I suggest to you
19 you were one of those people who were engaged in that
20 activity with Robert Hamill?
21 A. I was not, no.
22 Q. You were jumping on his head and you were intending to
23 do him serious harm?
24 A. That's not right.
25 Q. The only reason you were really jumping on his head was
95
1 because he was a Catholic?
2 A. That's wrong. No.
3 Q. You have a view about Catholics. Isn't that right?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I am also going to suggest to you that you were crazed
6 with drink that night.
7 A. No, that's wrong.
8 Q. Is that wrong?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You see, a policeman called Dean Silcock -- in your
11 researches in coming up to giving evidence at these
12 proceedings, have you come across what Dean Silcock has
13 said about you?
14 A. I can't really remember.
15 Q. Page [00700], please. Dean Silcock, in the bottom third
16 of the page, says:
17 "A large crowd of youths were in the vicinity of
18 these men. They were aggressive both verbally and
19 physically."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. "On several occasions, I pushed youths away from the
23 injured men as they appeared to try and kick the men."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
96
1 Q. "One of the rowdy youths was pointed out to me by
2 a woman wearing a white top, who alleged that this
3 youth", over the page, please, [00701], "had jumped on
4 the head of one of the injured men. This youth was
5 wearing a grey charcoal top. He also had blood coming
6 from his nose. A member of this crowd called to this
7 person calling him Stacey. He responded to this name."
8 That was you, wasn't it, Mr Bridgett?
9 A. No.
10 Q. An observation that Mr Silcock made of you subsequently
11 was this -- I don't have it to put it on the screen but
12 I am going to read it out to you:
13 "He was just part of that crowd that were pretty
14 aggressive. I remember him looking at him and seeing
15 blood coming from his nose."
16 This is him recounting what he had seen you do
17 earlier, many years previously. Do you understand?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This is an interview he had with the Inquiry. It is on
20 page 30 of his transcript. It is in January 2006. He
21 says:
22 "His eyes were -- I have never seen (inaudible) such
23 a look of excitement in his face."
24 Now, that's what Dean Silcock said about -- I am
25 saying that's what he said about you
97
1 A. Well, Dean Silcock also said that I was wearing a grey
2 charcoal top and the police know that's not what I was
3 wearing.
4 Q. He said the man he saw doing these things had blood
5 coming from his nose?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We know of nobody else who had blood coming from their
8 nose, Mr Bridgett.
9 A. It wasn't me.
10 Q. The man he observed also answered to the name of Stacey.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. These two are tied together by Mr Silcock.
13 A. Mr Silcock is mistaken.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did anyone address you as Stacey?
15 A. No. I actually have a nickname. The only people that
16 would call me by my first name would be my family maybe.
17 Maybe one of the policemen had said it. I don't know.
18 I can't remember.
19 MR McGRORY: What was the nickname again?
20 A. My nickname is Bridgey. That's what everybody calls me.
21 Q. It is funny. Of all the people who have referred to you
22 throughout the documentation that we have, nobody seems
23 to have used that.
24 A. I can't explain that.
25 Q. No.
98
1 THE CHAIRMAN: That may, of course, have been for the
2 clarity of the statement.
3 MR McGRORY: Yes, of course.
4 Now, do you remember when you were interviewed by
5 the Inquiry in 2006?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were interviewed by a man called Barnaby Pinfield.
8 You were asked a series of questions. At one point
9 during the course of the interview, they focused on the
10 man who came up to the Land Rover --
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. -- to remonstrate with the police for not having done
13 anything.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember talking about that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, we don't have this to put up on the screen, but you
18 said you thought the man was a Catholic and you have
19 repeated that today.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. You were asked:
22 "How did you know that?"
23 Do you remember the answer you gave?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The answer you gave was:
99
1 "I just thought he was. I imagined he looked like
2 one at the time."
3 Do you remember saying that?
4 A. Vaguely, yes.
5 Q. Do you know what Catholics look like, as opposed to
6 Protestants?
7 A. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can sort of tell one
8 by looking at one. I actually said, after that, that it
9 may have been something that he said at that time.
10 I can't really remember why I assumed he was a Catholic.
11 I just thought that he was.
12 Q. The exchange went on:
13 "Question: Sorry?
14 "Answer: He looked like one.
15 "Question: What did he look like?"
16 You said -- do you remember what you said?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You said:
19 "Answer: I can sort of tell what they look like."
20 That's what you said.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. "That's what they look like". What do Catholics look
23 like as opposed to Protestants?
24 A. I don't know. It is just sometimes you can sort of --
25 you can tell the difference. I don't know. It is maybe
100
1 just an assumption that I had. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, do you regard Catholics as a sort of different
3 class of a person?
4 A. I do not, no. They are as equal as everybody else.
5 Q. Yes, but you have a view of what they look like. So you
6 have a basis for thinking people are Catholics and
7 people are Protestants on what they look like?
8 A. No. I just assumed it at the time. I am not too sure
9 why I thought it.
10 Q. I will suggest to you why you thought it, Mr Bridgett:
11 because you are a sectarian bigot. Isn't that right?
12 A. That's not true.
13 Q. You were motivated by sheer hatred of Catholics when you
14 attacked Robert Hamill, when you jumped on him and
15 jumped on his head.
16 A. That's not true either.
17 Q. I didn't think you would say it was, Mr Bridgett.
18 A. That's because it is not, Mr McGrory.
19 MR McGRORY: Thank you.
20 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
21 MS DINSMORE: Just one matter.
22 I appear for Mr Robert Atkinson, one of the police
23 officers. You have given in your evidence this morning
24 that you were speaking to two police officers. One was
25 a policewoman, Reserve Constable Cornett --
101
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. -- and the other was the gentleman, P40, and you now
3 know what P40 stands for.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you confirm to me that when you were at the
6 Land Rover, those were the only police officers you were
7 talking to?
8 A. I think so, yes.
9 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much.
10 MR McCOMB: Might I just have a very short word with my
11 friend Mr Underwood?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, yes.
13 MR McCOMB: Sir, I think it is really more a matter for
14 a later stage, but I have discussed this with my learned
15 friend. Perhaps just for completeness, in fairness to
16 this witness, although I am not going to ask him
17 a question, I think Mr Underwood does agree that when
18 Mr Mallon gave his evidence before this Inquiry, in
19 fact, the impression which he gave was considerably
20 different from that one distilled from the woman police
21 officer, and indeed his own statement, that, indeed,
22 neither this witness nor his friend Mr Forbes was in any
23 way threatening. It is a matter of recollection, sir.
24 It is on the record anyway.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Perhaps at some stage when it is
102
1 convenient, you can give us the transcript reference?
2 MR McCOMB: We will certainly, sir.
3 MR EMMERSON: May I just mention one matter? During the
4 course of Mr Underwood's questioning of this witness he
5 referred to a passage on a document [18040] of a note
6 between Mr Davison and Mr Marshall regarding
7 Mr Marshall's conclusions as to the relative
8 probabilities of means of transfer of blood.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR EMMERSON: I don't think it is appropriate as a question
11 for this witness, but it is right to record that the
12 statement of Mr Marshall before this Tribunal uses the
13 language of possibility rather than consistency.
14 I simply raise that at this stage.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We shall have to wait and see whether
16 we hear more evidence on that point.
17 You told us, Mr Bridgett, it was a matter for
18 a forensic scientist to explain. That may not
19 necessarily be correct. A forensic scientist may be
20 able to have some contribution, but are you able to,
21 yourself, offer any explanation?
22 A. All I could say was, you know, I was at the scene. My
23 nose was pouring with blood. That's all I can say.
24 I can't say how it got on to Robert. I honestly can't.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: No questions arising out of that. Thank you,
103
1 sir.
2 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned hurting your foot at work?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long before the 27th was that?
6 A. I don't even know if it was before or after it. I can't
7 remember.
8 Q. What actually happened to you?
9 A. We were knocking a wall down with sledgehammers in
10 Carleton Street, Portadown. Whenever we were knocking
11 down the wall, the bricks fell and fell onto my foot.
12 It was nothing even major. All I did was take a couple
13 of Anadin Extra tablets. That's all it was.
14 Q. There was no record made of it?
15 A. No, it was a very minor thing.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Bridgett. That
18 concludes your evidence.
19 A. Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes the evidence for today, sir.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Tuesday week, 10.30.
23 (12.55 pm)
24 (The hearing adjourned until Tuesday, 10th March 2009)
25 --ooOoo--
104
1 I N D E X
2
3
MR WILLIAM THOMAS DAVID WOODS .................... 1
4 (sworn)
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
5 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 27
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 29
6 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 40
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 54
7
MR STACEY BRIDGETT (affirmed) .................... 55
8 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 55
Questions by MR O'HARE .................... 91
9 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 94
Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 101
10 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 104
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
105
