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Hearing: 26th February 2009, day 23
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Thursday, 26th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 23
1 Thursday, 26th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 (In Camera Hearing)
4 (10.45 am)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Judith Holland, please.
6 Sir, can I mention that the camera is not working
7 which feeds into the press room and the family room.
8 The family is in here, at any rate for the moment. We
9 will fix the camera. If it discomposes anybody, then,
10 of course, they will unhappily have to come in rather
11 than be in the press room.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Very well.
13 MS JUDITH MARGARET HOLLAND (sworn)
14 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Ms Holland.
16 A. Hello.
17 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
18 I have some questions for you. When I have finished, it
19 may be that some other people may have one or two
20 questions as well.
21 Can I ask you your full names, please?
22 A. Judith Margaret Holland.
23 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about events of the early
24 morning on 27th April 1997. I think you understand that
25 already.
1
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I appreciate that you may think you don't have very much
3 to say about it, but what we are doing is getting
4 everybody who was in the centre of Portadown before,
5 during and after what went on there --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- to try to get, if nothing else, timings --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and to tell the Panel what it was like before
10 fighting broke out, what it was like after fighting
11 broke out, what people said about it before and after
12 the time. So every piece of evidence, no matter how
13 irrelevant it may seem to you, may help us.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With that in mind, can I ask you to have a look at
16 a witness statement you made to the police that we find
17 at page [06295]? Let's just identify this, first of
18 all. Is this the statement you made on 19th May 1997?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You can look at the second page, if you need it. You
21 are happy with what you see there, are you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If we look at the first page to start with, you say in
24 the second line:
25 "On the night of Saturday 27th April, my boyfriend
2
1 Andrew Osborne and I went to the Coach Inn."
2 About four lines down you say you returned home on
3 the bus leaving Banbridge at about 1.15 am the following
4 morning:
5 "This would have got us back into Portadown at about
6 1.40 am."
7 I know it is 12 years ago and I don't suppose you
8 were looking at your watch. Can you help us with the
9 timing? Were you just assuming it would have been about
10 1.40 because of previous experience or do you remember
11 that you looked at a clock, or what?
12 A. No, previous experience, because I knew that the bus
13 always left at 1.15 on the dot.
14 Q. Right. Again, that's important to us, because there is
15 some reason to believe that perhaps it just left when it
16 filled up. It always left precisely, did it?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. At that time of the morning, would it be fair to say
19 there wouldn't be much traffic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So it was fairly regular, was it, in its arrival time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You say that:
24 "The bus dropped us off at Z Cabs and Andrew and
25 I walked from there to the Chinese at West Street."
3
1 We know, of course, that the bus was pretty full.
2 We know, because we have heard a lot of other evidence
3 about this, that people came up in dribs and drabs.
4 Some people stopped at Boss Hoggs. Some people stopped
5 and chatted to others all over the place in town.
6 Can you tell us your impression of whether you and
7 your boyfriend were the first off the bus or at the end
8 of the people getting off the bus or what?
9 A. I would -- I can't remember, but I would dare say
10 I would have been off the bus near the start.
11 Q. Uh-huh. From the passage we have just looked at, you
12 walked up to the Chinese at West Street. It makes it
13 look as if you went directly. Did you go directly or
14 did you stop and talk to anybody or look in windows or
15 anything?
16 A. No, straight up to the Chinese.
17 Q. You told the police in the statement:
18 "We walked up the Thomas Street side of the main
19 street. I recall seeing a police Land Rover parked
20 close to Woodhouse Street. I also recall looking up
21 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street but did not see
22 anyone in either street."
23 Can you recall where the Land Rover was? Was it
24 marked in a road or was it across the mouth of
25 a junction or what?
4
1 A. Like, at the side of the road there would have been
2 a wee car park.
3 Q. We can look at a map. If we look at the standard map we
4 use here, we can enlarge the middle of this. Can you
5 just get your bearings here? Towards the top right-hand
6 corner there is a B and C in circles. That's where the
7 barriers are. C is where Boss Hoggs was. So you would
8 have been dropped off around B?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. You say you walked up the Thomas Street side of the
11 street. That's, as it were, the lower side of the
12 street as we are looking at it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then you can see Thomas Street is at a junction in the
15 middle there and Woodhouse Street is the one going up.
16 We know that the Land Rover was in at least two
17 positions. One of the positions was parked on
18 Market Street as you go up towards Woodhouse Street and
19 then it ended up somewhere around the mouth of
20 Woodhouse Street.
21 Again, what I am interested in is you helping us
22 with which of those positions, if either, it was in when
23 you came up.
24 Does it help you looking at this map? Again, we can
25 show you a model with positions on or we can look at
5
1 other photographs.
2 A. No, I am happy enough.
3 Q. Okay. We have the ability to mark on this map, if you
4 wouldn't mind. We will do a screen shot of it. There
5 should be a pen attached to a piece of string now,
6 I think.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you do, you said it was in a wee
8 car park?
9 A. No. You know just along beside the footpath?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry?
11 A. You know at the side of the footpath, between the
12 footpath and the road there would be places for cars to
13 park.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: A lay-by?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: I think you now have the ability to mark on
18 it.
19 A. Oh, right. Just along at the corner there.
20 Q. That's where you think the lay-by was?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That's very helpful. Thank you very much. Can you
23 describe what was going on, if anything, in the centre
24 of town as you were walking up?
25 A. I am nearly positive it was just empty that night,
6
1 nothing.
2 Q. We can go back to your statement at page [06295]. Let
3 me repeat the part I just read to you:
4 "I also recall looking up Thomas Street and
5 Woodhouse Street, but did not see anyone in either
6 street."
7 Why were you doing that?
8 A. Way back then there would have been -- Portadown centre
9 would have been a flash point for violence all the time
10 and I would have always just been cautious of looking up
11 and down if there would have been groups hanging about,
12 because I knew there was, you know, pubs either end.
13 Q. If there had been any sort of trouble on the street that
14 night and rowdiness, would that have been something you
15 would have noticed?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. You go on in this statement to say:
18 "I also recall seeing a fella just outside
19 Dorothy Perkins. He was going in the opposite direction
20 to us, but do I not know who he is."
21 Was there anything about him that drew your
22 attention?
23 A. I think the only reason I remember him was he was drunk,
24 just staggering. That's the only thing I remember.
25 Q. Do you remember if he was wearing white?
7
1 A. I honestly couldn't say.
2 Q. You say:
3 "I did not see any police on the street and assumed
4 they were in the Land Rover. The reason I looked up
5 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street is that I always do
6 because I would worry if there was anyone about. This
7 is because there quite often is trouble in the area of
8 this junction. After we got our Chinese, we went to
9 Tracy McAlpine's house. That is Andrew and I. When we
10 got there, Pauline Newell and Shelley Liggett were
11 there."
12 Again, I know it is 12 years ago and I don't suppose
13 you were looking at your watch. Can you give us any
14 sort of idea about how long it would have taken you to
15 get the Chinese?
16 A. I would say I would have had the Chinese and out of the
17 Chinese for about 2 o'clock.
18 Q. While you were in there, did you notice any activity
19 around the area?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. Again on timing, can you help us with how long it would
22 have taken to get to Tracy McAlpine's house from the
23 Chinese?
24 A. Five or ten minutes.
25 Q. So you think you were there about 2.05 or 2.10,
8
1 something like that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You tell us at the bottom of that page:
4 "Pauline let us in."
5 There is a line that's broken for the page break:
6 "Tracy was upstairs."
7 If we go on to the next page, [06296]. You say:
8 "When we got to Tracy's house, Andrew fell asleep.
9 We only stayed there for half an hour or so before going
10 to Andrew's house. There was no-one else came into
11 Tracy's house before we left."
12 Is that right, that you had it to yourself --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- you and the three girls who were already there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was there any discussion between you and the girls who
17 were already there about anything that had happened in
18 town that night?
19 A. No, because we hadn't seen anything.
20 Q. No, but one of the questions for the Panel is whether
21 the others did, whether Tracy McAlpine had seen anything
22 or Shelley Liggett or Pauline Newell?
23 A. No, I didn't speak to Tracy in the house, because she
24 was upstairs. It was just Pauline and Shelley.
25 Q. Did Pauline and Shelley have anything to say about the
9
1 events of the evening?
2 A. I don't think so, no.
3 Q. Again, let me just go back on timing. Assuming the bus
4 got you in at 1.40 and, doing the best you can, you were
5 out of the Chinese by 2 o'clock, how long do you think
6 it would have taken you to get from the bottom of the
7 town where the bus dropped you to the junction with
8 Woodhouse Street and Thomas Street?
9 A. Probably less than five minutes.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much for that.
11 A. Thank you.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: As I say, some other people may have some
13 questions for you.
14 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
15 MR ADAIR: No questions.
16 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA
17 MR McKENNA: I have a number of questions.
18 Ms Holland, I am going to ask you some questions on
19 behalf of the Hamill family. Can you hear me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I could just ask you about your friends at that time
22 back in 1997. I think in your Inquiry statement you
23 were asked -- it is paragraph 5 of your Inquiry
24 statement. You speak about some people you know and
25 some people you don't know.
10
1 Now, it appears that your boyfriend Andrew Osborne
2 was friendly with Gregory Blevins?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that "Grogs"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He was the boyfriend of Pauline Newell. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tracy McAlpine is her sister?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you know these two girls through a friend of your
11 boyfriend's --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- who was going out with one of them. Would that be
14 fair?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also knew Stacey Bridgett and a Marc Hobson. They
17 were friends of your boyfriend's. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You knew of a Dean Forbes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I think you said you knew Timothy Jameson from school.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you knew Kelly Lavery, but not very well. She was
24 a friend of Pauline's. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
11
1 Q. Now, would they all have been regulars at the Coach?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sorry. Just before I go on, can I ask you: were you
4 working at the time? What age were you?
5 A. I think I was 18 and -- yes, I would have been working
6 I think.
7 Q. What were you working at, at that time? Can you
8 remember?
9 A. I think at that stage I had just started working in
10 a carpet factory, yes.
11 Q. Would that involve shift work or would it have been
12 working during the day?
13 A. Yes, shift work.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Now, there is one aspect of your evidence, given
16 that all these people are regulars at the Coach, and
17 they would have gone every week and you would have been
18 there with your boyfriend -- is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think if I turn to your Inquiry statement,
21 paragraph 7 -- I am sorry, I don't have a page reference
22 on my copy, Mr Chairman.
23 MR UNDERWOOD: It is entirely my fault. There is a draft
24 statement from Ms Holland. I didn't take her to it. It
25 starts at page [80468].
12
1 MR McKENNA: Thank you. I am obliged to Mr Underwood.
2 I think it is paragraph 7 of that. That would be over
3 the page [80469]. You say there:
4 "I would only have socialised with Andrew at the
5 Coach."
6 Now, can we take that to mean that you would have
7 only have socialised with him when you were both at the
8 Coach rather than you didn't socialise with him unless
9 you were at the Coach?
10 Do you appreciate the distinction I am making
11 A. Oh, yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It is lost on me at the moment.
13 MR McKENNA: Well, it is possible of two connotations,
14 Mr Chairman. She said:
15 "I would only have socialised with Andrew at the
16 Coach."
17 That may mean she only saw her boyfriend when she
18 was at the Coach. I don't think you are saying that.
19 A. No, maybe one other night during the week and a Saturday
20 night.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: When you went out together, so to speak, to
22 a do of some kind, that would be the Coach?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR McKENNA: Are you saying in that that you only socialised
25 with Andrew when the two of you were there? You didn't
13
1 socialise with anybody else at the Coach. Is that what
2 you are saying?
3 A. Well, I would have always stood with him, type of thing,
4 and danced with him and possibly Pauline.
5 Q. But that would have been it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You wouldn't really have mixed with any other people?
8 A. At that time, I didn't know too many people, to be
9 honest.
10 Q. But you have told us that your boyfriend knew, for
11 instance, Stacey Bridgett, Marc Hobson, "Grogs". You
12 knew of Dean Forbes. They were all regulars at the
13 Coach. You wouldn't have socialised with them? No?
14 A. Me? No.
15 Q. Okay. If we could turn to the statement of
16 Tracy McAlpine, which I think is at page 00053, this
17 was a statement she made to police on 14th May 1997.
18 Can we have that on the screen? Sorry. Page [00553].
19 My apologies.
20 You see at the start of her statement:
21 "On Saturday, 26th April 1997, my sister,
22 Pauline Newell, and her friend Kelly Lavery and I got
23 the bus over to the Coach disco in Banbridge at about
24 9.00 pm."
25 Do you see that at the top of the statement?
14
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. She says:
3 "I'd quite a bit to drink ..."
4 Then she goes on to say about six lines down:
5 "We got the bus back to Portadown then from
6 Banbridge at about 1.15 am on Sunday morning. The bus
7 got us into Portadown some time around 1.40 or 1.35."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. She goes to say:
11 "I saw Tracey Clarke, Steve Sinnamon ..."
12 Do you know him?
13 A. No.
14 Q. "... Andrew Osborne and his girlfriend Judith Holland."
15 She says she saw you on that bus returning from
16 Banbridge. Would you accept that, that you were on the
17 bus with them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If we go to the statement of Kelly Lavery, which was at
20 page [00551], about seven lines down in her statement
21 she says:
22 "I remember seeing Vicky Clayton ..."
23 Sorry. This statement is dated 14th May 1997,
24 Mr Chairman. Again, it is to police. She says:
25 "I remember seeing Vicky Clayton, Shelley Liggett,
15
1 Jennifer and Tracey Clarke on the bus coming back ..."
2 Just pausing there, do you know Tracey Clarke?
3 A. No.
4 Q. "... and two fellows I know, Dean Forbes and another boy
5 I know as Stacey."
6 That would be Stacey Bridgett?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A friend of Gregory's. Do you recall them on the bus?
9 A. Personally, no.
10 Q. In any event, you accept you were on that bus with
11 Kelly Lavery and Tracy McAlpine?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You do?
14 A. Yes. I know definitely Tracy was there.
15 Q. Yes, well, Tracy says that Kelly was on the bus with
16 her -- so you accept that -- and Pauline. The three of
17 them travelled back together and you were on that bus?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That bus dropped you off at the bottom of the town.
20 I think it is outside a taxi rank. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we could turn to your police statement, please, which
23 is at [06295].
24 You say you got off the bus at 1.40 am. That's
25 normally the time the bus drops you off. I think we
16
1 have heard a number of people say that that was in or
2 around the time that the bus got back that night to
3 Portadown.
4 In your Inquiry statement you have said that you and
5 your boyfriend walked up to the Chinese in West Street.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we could have the map of Portadown that was referred
8 to earlier on the screen, and if we expand the area,
9 where exactly was the Chinese on West Street? Perhaps
10 we could pan slightly left, please. Yes.
11 A. It is actually on up more to the left.
12 Q. More to the left?
13 A. Yes. Off the map then.
14 Q. It is off the map?
15 A. Yes. It is not just too far on up there.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: I think map 3 goes to the left.
17 MR McKENNA: You walked up to the Chinese with your --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want map 3?
19 MR McKENNA: Sorry. If we have map 3. My apologies. Thank
20 you, Mr Underwood.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We may need to enlarge this.
22 MR McKENNA: Yes. We see West Street. Do you have any idea
23 from that map whereabouts the Chinese restaurant was?
24 A. Yes. It is just -- can you see the railway line?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
17
1 A. It is just slightly to the left of it. It would just be
2 over the bridge.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just the other side of the bridge?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR McKENNA: In your statement to the Inquiry you said that
6 you had walked then from -- I think it is Bridge Street
7 really, is it, at the end of High Street where the
8 barriers are? That's where the bus would have dropped
9 you off?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You got from there to West Street in, you say,
12 five minutes?
13 A. No.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I think she said to the junction in about
15 five minutes.
16 A. It was to Thomas Street was in about five minutes.
17 MR McKENNA: So you were in Thomas Street in five minutes.
18 You see -- you say at that stage you heard nothing
19 and saw nothing. Is that right?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. The town was empty you say?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were in Thomas Street in about five minutes. So
24 that puts you around Thomas Street at 1.45?
25 A. Yes.
18
1 Q. Would that be right?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. I wonder could we turn to the statement of Mr Godly? It
4 is Inquiry statement [80320]. He was the RUC
5 communications officer on the right, Mr Chairman.
6 I think if we could turn to paragraph 10 of his
7 evidence.
8 We see there he first became aware of a fight
9 happening in Portadown town centre when he heard
10 screaming coming over the radio at about 1.45.
11 Now, we know this incident was at Thomas Street.
12 You have just told us that you were there at about 1.45,
13 but yet you heard nothing.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If we go on to paragraph 11 and highlight it, please:
16 "My recollection of the message was hearing Reserve
17 Constable [Cornett] literally screaming over the network.
18 I knew it was Reserve Constable [Cornett] because
19 I recognised her voice. She was screaming something
20 like, 'They're killing one another'."
21 Now, she saw this at 1.45. She happens to be one of
22 the police officers in the Land Rover, but you saw
23 nothing?
24 A. Obviously I must be a few minutes out somewhere, because
25 I definitely didn't see anything.
19
1 Q. And you heard nothing?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If we turn to the evidence of Constable Orr and his
4 police statement, which is at [00714]. He arrives on
5 the scene. He is not one of the constables in
6 a Land Rover. He is in a car on patrol.
7 If we just look about six lines up from the
8 bottom -- slightly further -- he says when he arrived he
9 noticed two persons lying in the main road close to
10 Thomas Street at the junction, with females assisting
11 them:
12 "The crowd at this time was made up mostly of young
13 men and a few women. It numbered about 50 strong. This
14 crowd kept shouting at the opposing faction which was to
15 my rear and rushed police lines towards them.
16 I instructed Reserve Constable Warnock to return to
17 Portadown RUC station", in Edward Street not far away,
18 "and get a riot gun."
19 So he was sufficiently concerned to ask another
20 police officer to go back to the police station and get
21 a riot gun. Do you know what a riot gun is?
22 A. Is it a rubber bullet one?
23 Q. A plastic bullet gun it would have been in those days,
24 yes.
25 So as far as he was concerned, this was not your
20
1 average Saturday night bust-up. It was pretty serious,
2 serious enough to ask another officer to go and get
3 a riot gun. But you saw nothing and heard nothing?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If we could turn then to the statement of Ms Leonard,
6 which is at [80666], the Inquiry statement of
7 Ruth Leonard. She was the ambulance operator.
8 In paragraph 9 she tells us:
9 "... the ambulance arrived at the scene at 01.58 and
10 left again at 02.02."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. So it was there for approximately four minutes in and
14 around the time you are in the area of Portadown town
15 centre. Do you see what I am saying?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This was an emergency ambulance and other witnesses have
18 described hearing sirens and seeing flashing lights.
19 Again, you heard nothing?
20 A. I don't remember hearing anything, no.
21 Q. You don't remember. In any event, you make your way up
22 through the town and you go to the party which is at
23 Tracy McAlpine's. Is that right?
24 A. (Witness nods).
25 Q. So if we turn to the statement of Tracy McAlpine, which
21
1 I think is at [00553], she describes going up the town
2 with Pauline, her sister, and Kelly Lavery. I think if
3 you look at the bottom two lines:
4 "We got to my house. I'm not sure what time. It
5 must have been after 2.00. There was only the three of
6 us", over the page, please, [00554]. "I went up to bed
7 and Kelly did too."
8 So she is saying, when she arrived at her house,
9 there was nobody else there.
10 If we go to the statement of Kelly Lavery, which is
11 at page [00551], at the bottom she says:
12 "When we arrived there", and over the page [00552],
13 "I went upstairs to bed and fell asleep. There were
14 only the three of us in the house when I went upstairs."
15 So again, she is effectively backing up what Tracy
16 is saying about there being nobody else in the house.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Finally in respect of this, if we turn to your evidence
19 to the police at this time at [06295], which is
20 a statement you gave, the bottom three lines:
21 "After we got our Chinese, we went to
22 Tracy McAlpine's house, that is Andrew and I. When we
23 got there, Pauline Newell and Shelley Liggett were
24 there. Pauline let us in."
25 Is that your recollection?
22
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So Pauline Newell, Tracy McAlpine and Kelly Lavery were
3 all in their house before you arrived?
4 A. Well, I didn't know that Kelly Lavery was there. I knew
5 that Tracy was upstairs.
6 Q. Well, if we turn to Pauline Newell's statement -- and
7 Pauline after all let you in -- that is at page [09129].
8 If we just highlight the bottom half or bottom
9 three-quarters of that -- sorry. If we could go further
10 up.
11 You see there:
12 "When we got to Tracey's", six lines down, "there
13 was just the three of us."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. This is Pauline Newell. She is the person who let you
17 in.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. What Pauline is saying is that she, Tracy McAlpine, her
20 sister, and Kelly Lavery are all in the house --
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. -- and you arrive some time after they arrive.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Now, you told us earlier that you don't know
25 Tracey Clarke. Is that right?
23
1 A. No.
2 Q. If we could have Tracey Clarke's statement on the screen
3 at page [00262]. She was described at this stage as
4 Witness A and she made her statement on 10th May 1997.
5 If we could highlight just the top third or so, she says
6 she got a taxi to Banbridge with her work partner,
7 Shelley Liggett:
8 "I met up with my friends Pauline Newell,
9 Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery", and two others.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She goes on to say:
13 "Along with my friends I travelled back to Portadown
14 on the bus that leaves at 1.15 am."
15 Now, this is the same bus that you are on. Is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "We got off the bus at the Classic bar in Bridge Street.
19 We got together and walked up High Street towards the
20 town centre."
21 At that stage, Pauline Newell goes into Boss Hoggs,
22 which you have already identified for us on the map.
23 I think it was B on the map of Portadown.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. If we go on down and highlight the bottom half of that
24
1 page, she says in the bottom half of that highlighted
2 portion:
3 "I would say that it was about 1.45 am approx when
4 we were in West Street as the bus got in at about
5 1.30 am."
6 You say it is 1.40 am.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. "Around this time we heard shouting coming from main
9 street. I can't remember what was said but it was
10 something like, 'Fight, fight'. We all ran down to see
11 what was happening."
12 Now, that includes Tracy McAlpine, Pauline Newell
13 and Kelly Lavery. Do you see what I am suggesting to
14 you there?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Now Tracey Clarke goes on to describe an assault on
17 Robert Hamill. So over the page at [00263], and if you
18 could highlight the top half or so. She saw somebody
19 lying in the middle of the road. She saw people jumping
20 on the person on the ground. About halfway down she
21 identifies -- she says:
22 "I saw the persons who were doing this and I can
23 identify them as: (1) Dean Forbes, (2)
24 Allister Hanvey..."
25 Do you know him?
25
1 A. No.
2 Q. "... (3) Stacey Bridgett, (4) 'Muck'", whom we believe
3 to be Marc Hobson. Would that be right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "(5) Rory Robinson."
6 These people were all identified by Tracey Clarke.
7 She is watching it along with Tracy McAlpine,
8 Pauline Newell and Kelly Lavery?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Do you see that? Of course, you know Dean Forbes and
11 your boyfriend was friendly with Stacey Bridgett and
12 Mr Hobson. Is that right?
13 A. (Witness nods).
14 Q. You see, the difficulty is, Ms Holland, that these three
15 people who are with Tracey Clarke and watch this fight
16 according to her, this assault, according to her, are
17 already in their house when you arrive. So you must
18 have arrived behind them. Do you understand that?
19 A. Behind?
20 Q. The three girls?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: After them.
22 A. Yes. Right. Okay.
23 MR McKENNA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
24 Yet, they were present in the town centre and,
25 according to Tracey Clarke, witnessed the assault on
26
1 Robert Hamill.
2 A. According to Tracey Clarke, but ...
3 Q. You are still sticking to your version of events that
4 you saw nothing and heard nothing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Absolutely nothing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, I want to deal now, Ms Holland, with the issue of
9 the party itself back in Tracy McAlpine's house.
10 Now, we have heard already that there was only the
11 three of them there. If we could go back to
12 Pauline Newell's -- when you arrived, sorry. If we go
13 back to Pauline Newell's statement at [09129]. I'm
14 sorry. If we could have page [09128] up of that
15 momentarily please.
16 Pauline Newell describes -- if we highlight the
17 text, please -- walking up through the town. Of course,
18 she doesn't hear or see very much either, even though
19 Tracey Clarke puts her there.
20 She says, as she was walking up High Street, she saw
21 a police Land Rover -- the bottom four lines -- at the
22 top of Woodhouse Street:
23 "... and as I crossed over Woodhouse Street junction
24 I glanced down it and saw an elderly man on his own ...
25 I also saw Dean Forbes and Stacey Bridgett at the police
27
1 Land Rover."
2 Overleaf, [09129]. These are Andrew's mates. Do
3 you see that? Did you see them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you speak to them?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did Andrew speak to them?
8 A. No.
9 Q. After all, I think Tracey Clarke puts them on the bus
10 along with you and Andrew?
11 A. Possibly.
12 Q. But you didn't see them or speak to them?
13 A. I don't remember who all was on the bus.
14 Q. Well, if we go back to the issue of the party, you have
15 said you arrived and I think Pauline Newell and
16 Shelley Liggett were there. Is that right?
17 If we could turn to Shelley Liggett's statement,
18 which is at [00556], please, and if we could highlight
19 the bottom third, please. Shelley Liggett is saying she
20 is with Paul Currie. Do you know him?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. She walked up to Tracy Newell's house in Brownstown.
23 I believe that's Tracy McAlpine. The surname was
24 perhaps interchangeable.
25 A. Uh-huh.
28
1 Q. "I arrived there about 2.10 am. Tracy and
2 Pauline Newell and Kelly Lavery were already there.
3 Kelly shouted down that her and Pauline were in bed.
4 A few minutes later, xxxxxxxxxxxxxx arrived and took me
5 home."
6 This is a taxi driver. She makes no mention of you
7 or your boyfriend arriving. Do you see that?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. But yet, you say you saw her there. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, if we go to Pauline Newell's statement again,
12 please, which is at [09129], and have that on the
13 screen, and about halfway down, if we identify the lower
14 portion, you will see just the second line from the top
15 there:
16 "When we got to Tracy's, there was just the three of
17 us. Tracy and Kelly went up to bed. Tracy got sick in
18 the bathroom. We'd been in the house a short time when
19 I answered a knock at the door. It was Andrew Osborne
20 and Judith Holland. I let them in. I talked to Judith
21 and Andrew fell asleep."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I think you said that in your statement. Then she says:
24 "I left them downstairs and went up to bed."
25 Do you see that?
29
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. So what she seems to be saying is that she left you and
3 Andrew downstairs on your own. Would that be right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember that?
6 A. I don't, no. I remember Pauline and Shelley being
7 there.
8 Q. She goes on to say:
9 "This must have been about 2.15 or so. I slept and
10 woke some time around 5.00 am."
11 So she is saying she slept until 5 o'clock in the
12 morning:
13 "I got up to get a drink of water and came
14 downstairs to get one. In the living room, I saw
15 a number of people. I don't know who'd let them in, but
16 I remember seeing", amongst others, "Dean Forbes",
17 a friend of your boyfriend's. Sorry, he was known to
18 you. He is not a friend of your boyfriend's. He is
19 there:
20 "Allister Hanvey, Stephen Sinnamon, 'Fonzy',
21 Chris Henderson."
22 Did you let them in?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If we turn to the statement now of Kelly Lavery, please,
25 back to it, at page [00552], and go to the top portion
30
1 of it, please, she says she went upstairs to bed and
2 fell asleep:
3 "There were only the three of us in the house when
4 I went upstairs. Pauline went up to bed as well.
5 Before I went to sleep, I heard voices but don't know
6 who was downstairs at all. Early in the morning, I woke
7 up and spoke to Tracy."
8 She recounts going out to the petrol station with
9 Tracy and buying an ice lolly and packet of crisps. She
10 goes on to say that, when she wakens up, goes out and
11 comes back into the house, Dean Forbes is there and
12 Allister Hanvey, and somebody paints her face. What she
13 is saying is she is asleep when these people arrive.
14 She didn't let them in.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Do you understand that?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Now, if you turn to Tracy McAlpine's statement then at
19 page [00554], the top portion, if we could highlight
20 that, please, again she said she went up to bed and
21 Kelly did too:
22 "I wasn't feeling very well."
23 After that, she got up and was sick in the bathroom.
24 Excuse me:
25 "After this, I came downstairs and found a number of
31
1 people in my house. I don't know who'd let them in,
2 possibly my sister."
3 The situation we have here is that the three girls,
4 if I can call them that, who went back to
5 Tracy McAlpine's house initially, all of them say they
6 let none of the people at the party into the house.
7 Shelley Liggett, whom you say was there, in her
8 statement describes herself being picked up after
9 a few minutes by a taxi, which I think she said earlier
10 in her statement she had organised to pick her up there.
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Pauline Newell is saying she was speaking to you.
13 Andrew fell asleep and she went upstairs to bed. Now,
14 that only leaves you and Andrew in the house. Do you
15 follow that?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: This is if this is correct.
17 MR McKENNA: If their evidence is correct.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The witness has said she stayed at
19 Tracy McAlpine's house for about half an hour and then
20 she and Andrew left. This really, you know, is a long
21 series of questions which are really in the nature of
22 a submission and this can be dealt with quite shortly,
23 can it not?
24 Did you let anyone into the house? If they were
25 there, do you know how they got there?
32
1 MR McKENNA: Well, what I will be suggesting to this witness
2 is, Mr Chairman, what she has done is put distance
3 between herself and those people present at the party.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I follow that, but the matter can be dealt
5 with, you know, Mr McKenna, much more shortly than
6 rehearsing what a lot of statements say. That really is
7 in the nature of a submission. Two or three questions
8 could cover this:
9 A, B, C and D were there and if the other girls were
10 in bed, do you know how they got in?
11 MR McKENNA: What I am suggesting to you, Ms Holland, is you
12 want to put as much distance between you and other
13 individuals at the party, which include Dean Forbes and
14 Stacey Bridgett, because at this stage, when this
15 statement was taken, this was a murder inquiry and you
16 knew that they were in trouble --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- because the fight was discussed at that party that
19 night?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You did not want to tell the police about that. Is that
22 right?
23 A. No. I never spoke to any of them.
24 Q. You told police everything that you knew about what went
25 on on that night, didn't you?
33
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Even though you walked up through what was a virtual
3 riot and saw nothing and heard nothing?
4 A. No, but I didn't.
5 Q. I mean, can I suggest to you, Ms Holland, you are not
6 being forthcoming with this Inquiry?
7 A. No way.
8 Q. There seems to have been a number of people, quite
9 a number of people, many of whom have given evidence in
10 the last week or so, who seem to recall absolutely
11 nothing about what went on in Portadown that night, and
12 you are one of them.
13 A. No. I remember what I remember in the statement.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment. This is not the right way to
15 ask the question. If the point is, "Are you part of
16 a conspiracy to have remembered nothing?", you can put
17 that quite simply, not by way of the comment you have
18 just made.
19 MR McKENNA: Well, I have nothing further for you,
20 Ms Holland.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. You don't want to ask that
22 question?
23 MR McKENNA: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
25 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
34
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?
2 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
3 MR McCOMB: May I, just for clarification, ask you a couple
4 of questions, Ms Holland?
5 You got off the bus with Andrew, as you have said.
6 A. (Witness nods).
7 Q. You walked up, and it would be about a five-minute
8 stroll up to the junction of Thomas Street and
9 Woodhouse -- and Market Street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you then walk on to near where the railway line is
12 on West Street, the two of you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you go to the Chinese restaurant there?
15 A. Yes, a take-away Chinese.
16 Q. Did you order a take-away?
17 A. We would have got something.
18 Q. How long would it take you to walk from the junction of
19 Thomas Street to the Chinese?
20 A. Five minutes.
21 Q. If that. Would that be right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you any idea of perhaps how long you stayed waiting
24 for -- were there other people waiting for an order in
25 the Chinese?
35
1 A. I am not sure, but that Chinese is always really quick
2 anyway.
3 Q. Really quick, but it would be some minutes, I suppose,
4 before you got your order?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Did you eat the Chinese on the way over then, or where
7 did you eat it?
8 A. Yes, just walking down the road.
9 Q. On the way to Tracy McAlpine's?
10 A. Tracy's.
11 Q. How long a walk would it be from the Chinese then to
12 Tracy McAlpine's house?
13 A. That would roughly be a wee bit more than five minutes
14 as well, about that long.
15 Q. A fairly short walk?
16 A. Five to ten minutes.
17 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
18 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: May I remedy my default from earlier and just
20 ask you about the draft statement?
21 At page [80468], if we could have it up, please,
22 Ms Holland, I know that the Inquiry staff interviewed
23 you a while ago and a transcript of that was, I think,
24 shown to you later on. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
36
1 Q. Then this draft was made up from the notes of that.
2 Can I ask whether you ever received a copy of this
3 draft?
4 A. I did there last week.
5 Q. I am sorry, I couldn't hear.
6 A. Just last week.
7 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it?
8 A. Briefly.
9 Q. Is it accurate, as far as you can see?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you been asked to sign it?
12 A. No. I haven't been asked.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. I have no further questions.
14 Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free to go.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Andrew Osborne next, please.
18 MR ANDREW PETER OSBORNE (sworn)
19 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
20 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, Mr Osborne. My name is
21 Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry. I have some
22 questions for you, and, at the end of that, some other
23 people may have a few more.
24 Can I ask you your full names, first of all?
25 A. It is Andrew Peter Osborne.
37
1 Q. We know, because we have just heard Ms Holland's
2 evidence, that you were with her on the night of
3 27th April, or rather the morning of 27th April --
4 A. Yes, uh-huh.
5 Q. -- and got in by bus from the Coach Inn.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What we are interested in principally is timings and
8 what you saw when you were going through the town.
9 What Ms Holland told us was that the bus left at
10 1.15. Can you help on that?
11 A. Well -- it left at 1.15? Arriving -- it would have left
12 Banbridge at 1.15?
13 Q. Correct.
14 A. It would have been around that time, yes, probably.
15 Q. Can you help us with what time it got into Portadown?
16 A. It may be a 20-minute drive, half an hour's drive maybe.
17 Q. Okay. You have no particular recollection of looking at
18 a watch or clock that night, I take it?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. We know you walked up the High Street. We gather that
21 you walked up on the Thomas Street side, if you
22 understand me.
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. You confirm that?
25 A. Yes.
38
1 Q. Can I show you -- there is a plan we have which is
2 police vehicle positions.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It will come up on the screen in a moment. If you can
5 work out where you are with this map, this is the
6 junction. The road going off down the bottom end is
7 Thomas Street and the one going up is Woodhouse Street.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Marked on here are three positions of a Land Rover, if
10 you can see them, one outside Clarke's shoe shop in
11 a lay-by, which is LR1, one pretty much on the corner,
12 which is LR2, and one going into the mouth of
13 Woodhouse Street, LR3.
14 Can you help us about which, if any, of those
15 positions you saw a Land Rover in that night?
16 A. I don't think -- from what I remember, I don't think it
17 was in that position -- any of them positions.
18 Q. Can you help us about where you thought it was?
19 A. Just mark with a pen.
20 Q. You will see have to wait a second if you want to mark
21 on it. We have to do something we call a screen shot.
22 Right. Please. You can mark now, if you like.
23 A. I think it was round there.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. That's the footpath, isn't it?
39
1 Q. That's the footpath.
2 A. There.
3 Q. You think in the road on, as it were, the far side of
4 Woodhouse Street?
5 A. I think. I think.
6 Q. Can you tell us what was going on in the town? How did
7 it feel? Was it noisy? Were there other people?
8 A. I really don't know.
9 Q. All right. Can we have a look at a witness statement
10 you made at the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's at page [09171]. This is a statement you made on
13 12th May 1997.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You tell us -- told the police, rather, in the third
16 line:
17 "We got the bus back to Portadown from Banbridge
18 leaving there at around 1.15 am ... getting into
19 Portadown between 1.30 and 1.45. I don't remember
20 anyone else on the bus. I was quite drunk. Judith and
21 I got off the bus at Z Cabs and walked straight up the
22 town to the Chinese in West Street. I remember seeing
23 a police Land Rover at the Alliance & Leicester Building
24 Society but the town itself was very quiet."
25 A. Yes.
40
1 Q. "At the Chinese, Judith said about going up round to
2 a friend of hers in [Brownstown]. I think this girl's
3 called Tracy Newell", or Tracy McAlpine as we call her.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "When we got there, there wasn't many there, just a few
6 wee girls. We stayed about half an hour before leaving.
7 I slept there for a time. Then we left. I can't say
8 who was there at all. I didn't hear any talk about
9 a fight in the town."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, when you made this statement on 12th May, did you
12 have a reasonable recall of what had happened or were
13 you so out of it with alcohol that it was a bit of
14 a blur?
15 A. I don't really know. I'm not too sure. I can't recall.
16 All I know, we walked on up the town, got a bite to eat
17 and went on round to that house.
18 Q. If there had been anything hostile going on in the
19 town --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- would you have noticed it?
22 A. Yes, yes, probably.
23 Q. Do we take it from this that you went straight up to the
24 Chinese without stopping to talk to anybody or have you
25 no recollection about that?
41
1 A. I have no recollection whether we stopped or not.
2 I think we just went straight on up the road, as far as
3 I can recall.
4 Q. Again, we are interested in timing as best we can get
5 it.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you help us about what happened at the Chinese? Do
8 you recall whether you had to wait there for a long time
9 to get food or whether you were straight in and out?
10 A. I wouldn't have a clue.
11 Q. You say there were a few girls at Tracy Newell's house
12 when you got there.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were they all downstairs or did you get the impression
15 some were upstairs, some were down?
16 A. I couldn't recall. I'm sorry.
17 Q. Excuse me. Can I just ask you if you would look at
18 page [81073]? This is a statement that was drafted for
19 you by the Inquiry team.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you ever got this?
22 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
23 Q. How long ago did you get it? Can you help us with that?
24 A. I'm not too sure. I got that last week, I think.
25 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to look through it and see
42
1 whether it's accurate?
2 A. I took a look through it, yes.
3 Q. Is it accurate?
4 A. As far as I know, yes.
5 Q. Is there any reason why you haven't signed it?
6 A. Well, I'm not obliged to sign it. It is not legally
7 binding, is it?
8 Q. Do you want to help the Inquiry?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why not sign it?
11 A. Well, if it is not legally binding, why should I? Would
12 you sign anything if you didn't want to put your name,
13 if you didn't have to?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Counsel, unfortunately, can't answer
15 questions.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Can we look at the second page of it, please,
17 [81074]? You say there in paragraph 6:
18 "I have been asked about various people who are
19 connected with this and I can say that at the time
20 I knew Stacey Bridgett. I would usually see him around
21 the estate and if we were out at night, for example, if
22 we went drinking at one of the pubs down the town.
23 Similarly, I was friends with Marc Hobson and also
24 Andrew ('Fonzy') Allen, who lived in the same area as
25 I did. I would meet up with them socially then."
43
1 We know that all three of those were arrested for
2 murder arising out of events which happened probably
3 about 5 or 10 minutes after you had walked through the
4 town on your evidence.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Presumably you discussed those events with them, did
7 you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Not at all?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did they never mention that they had been in prison?
12 Andrew Allen I think was just detained for a day or two.
13 A. Well, I knew they had been in prison, yes.
14 Q. Marc Hobson went to prison for four years, didn't he?
15 A. I don't know how long it was.
16 Q. No discussion about this at all?
17 A. No. No, not that I can recall, no.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much. As I say,
19 other people may have some questions.
20 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
21 MR ADAIR: No questions.
22 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA
23 MR McKENNA: Just two brief matters, Mr Osborne?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see, it has been put to Ms Holland in some detail by
44
1 myself the timings of various things that happened on
2 this night which can be objectively established; for
3 instance, the time the ambulance arrived, when police
4 made calls for assistance, etc?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. The picture painted is of quite a scene of disorder,
7 close to a riot situation perhaps.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. That seems to be the tenor of the evidence.
10 Now, all this would appear to have occurred some
11 time between 1.40 and 2 o'clock. Certainly the
12 ambulance was leaving at 2.02.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. You got off the bus at around 1.40, 1.45 --
15 A. Right.
16 Q. -- and had to walk up High Street into West Street.
17 I think you had said you were going to the Chinese in
18 West Street.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Had you to walk through all this?
21 A. At the time probably, aye, but it is away up -- we were
22 well up the road before -- obviously before anything
23 happened, because it was all quiet when we were there.
24 Q. You didn't hear any sirens?
25 A. No.
45
1 Q. Nothing like that, shouting, screaming, coming from
2 behind you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You aren't going to assist the Inquiry today with any
5 recollection that you might have, are you?
6 A. I have no recollection at all.
7 Q. Now, if I could deal with another matter, in your
8 statement, Mr Osborne -- I know you haven't signed this,
9 but you accept the contents of it, I believe. Is that
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say, and I think it is -- you are asked about your
13 knowledge of various people --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- who are the subject of interest in this Inquiry, if
16 I can put it like that. That's at paragraph 6.
17 This statement is based on the interview you had
18 with the Inquiry. Do you remember that interview?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It is the 8th March 2006, I think.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Your girlfriend, Judith, was interviewed on the same
23 date, according to the transcript of her interview.
24 At that stage, you are saying you were friends with
25 Marc Hobson and Andrew Allen and you knew
46
1 Stacey Bridgett:
2 "I would meet up with them socially then",
3 presumably referring to 1997. Right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "I still pass them and speak to them, but I do not
6 bother to socialise with them anymore."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if we could turn to the Inquiry statement of
9 Judith Holland -- I am sorry. I don't have
10 a page reference on my copy, Mr Chairman. If the
11 Inquiry could assist?
12 MS SHORT: [80468].
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
14 MR McKENNA: Thank you. Now, if we could go to the last
15 paragraph of her statement, which is page 4 of the
16 statement, [80471], she says -- this is on
17 8th March 2006:
18 "I am still in a relationship with Andrew. I know
19 he has remained friends with Stacey Bridgett and
20 Marc Hobson since 1997. He remained friends with them
21 during 1997 and probably had contact with them then.
22 I would meet up with them on rare occasions if I was
23 around. Andrew continues to speak to them now and
24 sometimes sees them in the pub."
25 Is she wrong about that?
47
1 A. Well, that's from three years ago.
2 Q. Well, it is on the same date you were interviewed.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You say, you know, you had nothing to do with them
5 really. You would say, "Hello" to them. She says you
6 are still socialising with them?
7 A. Not then. I would have known them, still spoke to them.
8 If I was in a pub with them, I would have spoke to them,
9 but not best of friends now.
10 Q. Are you telling the Inquiry today that at no stage you
11 discussed what happened on that night in 1997 with any
12 of these individuals?
13 A. No, not that I can recall, no.
14 MR McKENNA: Thank you, Mr Osborne.
15 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
16 MR McCOMB: No questions.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: There is nothing arising. Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Osborne.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, the next witness is Iain Carville.
22 Unfortunately, his car has broken down. We have sent
23 a taxi for him. He is due here now at 12.30 by taxi.
24 I wonder if, in those circumstances, you would rise
25 until then?
48
1 THE CHAIRMAN: We do not have much choice.
2 (12.00 noon)
3 (Short break)
4 (12.30 pm)
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I gather Mr Carville is here and I call him,
6 please.
7 MR IAIN CARVILLE (sworn)
8 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Hello, Mr Carville.
10 A. Hiya.
11 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
12 I have some questions for you, then other people may ask
13 one or two after that.
14 Can I ask you, first of all, to look at page [80175]
15 on the screen? This is a statement that runs to six
16 pages. Perhaps we can just scroll through the
17 pages fairly quickly.
18 Is that your statement signed on 15th May last year?
19 If you want more time to look at it, please do.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is it true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you to look, please, at
24 page [09184] now. Is this a statement you made to the
25 police on 19th May 1997?
49
1 A. Uh-huh, yes.
2 Q. If I can just run you through a few passages in it,
3 about ten lines into this you say about the middle of
4 a line:
5 "Christine dropped Chris and I off at Herron's at
6 the bottom of the town."
7 That's Chris Henderson?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. "This must have been around 2.00 am. The second bus had
10 came into Portadown, dropped people off and left again
11 and we were still talking. It must have then been well
12 after 2.30. We started walking up the town and saw
13 an ambulance pulling away from the end of
14 Thomas Street."
15 We only know about one ambulance pulling away from
16 the end of Thomas Street that night and it did that at
17 2.02. What makes you think the second bus had come into
18 Portadown that night?
19 A. It must have just coordinated with the time I was in
20 town. I would have had a rough idea what time the
21 second bus normally dropped people off.
22 Q. What makes you think you were there well after 2.30?
23 A. Because of all the time it would have took for me to
24 walk from Killycomain to get into town, it would have
25 been towards 2.30.
50
1 Q. You are clear, are you, you saw an ambulance pulling
2 away?
3 A. I couldn't honestly say now.
4 Q. Let's move on:
5 "I recall seeing a few police Land Rovers in the
6 town and a crowd heading out of the towns towards
7 Brownstown."
8 Where were you when you saw the police Land Rovers?
9 A. I must have been in the town centre.
10 Q. By the junction with Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street?
11 A. Maybe not even as far as that. You can sort of see
12 police Land Rovers anywhere on the main street. It is
13 not that big.
14 Q. Can you help us with where they were?
15 A. I couldn't remember.
16 Q. You say you saw a crowd heading out of the town towards
17 Brownstown.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Were they heading out on their own or were police
20 pushing them?
21 A. I couldn't honestly remember now. I think they were
22 heading out on their own.
23 Q. Did you see any police officers at all?
24 A. Just the Land Rovers. It is a long time now.
25 Q. All right. You say:
51
1 "Chris and I walked on up to the Cam Hing Chinese in
2 West Street and met a few more friends. We walked over
3 to the footbridge in Edgarstown and Stephen Bloomer,
4 Marc Hobson and I think Allister Hanvey went to
5 Tracy McAlpine's house. I don't know where Chris went."
6 I know you have been asked about this and you say in
7 your statement you derive from that now that Marc Hobson
8 and Allister Hanvey must have been among the friends you
9 bumped into. Is that your recollection?
10 A. It must have been, according to this statement here.
11 Q. Were they close friends?
12 A. Not really, no, not that I knew of.
13 Q. So the position is you get into town, you see
14 an ambulance go, you see police Land Rovers. You see
15 a crowd going up the street and you bump into, amongst
16 other people, Allister Hanvey and Marc Hobson. That's
17 the position, is it?
18 A. Uh-huh, must have been, yes.
19 Q. People have given statements to the effect that
20 Marc Hobson and Allister Hanvey had just committed
21 an assault on Robert Hamill, as a result of which he
22 died, and that the atmosphere in the town was hostile,
23 aggressive, that police had had to get riot guns, had
24 had to baton-charge people, had had back-up teams in
25 operation.
52
1 Now, the Panel may take the view that anybody
2 walking into town, as you did, seeing the ambulance when
3 you did and then meeting Allister Hanvey and
4 Marc Hobson, would have realised an atmosphere and there
5 would have been discussions between Mr Hobson, Mr Hanvey
6 and others about what had just happened.
7 What can you tell us about that?
8 A. I can't remember any discussions that they had. I don't
9 honestly think I was that close to them to overhear any
10 conversations they may have been having.
11 Q. Have you got any other experience of walking through the
12 centre of Portadown and there being an ambulance, lots
13 of police cars, crowds?
14 A. Crowd and police cars, but not with ambulances.
15 Q. Have you been through there on any other occasion when
16 there has been a murder?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Why is it you are unable to remember any discussion or
19 any atmosphere?
20 A. Possibly because it was a long time ago.
21 Q. Well, you were asked about this on 19th May 1997, which
22 would have brought it to mind, wouldn't it? Do you
23 accept that?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. When you were asked about it, what were your
53
1 recollections then?
2 A. I can't remember.
3 Q. If we go to page [09185], you talk about
4 Tracy McAlpine's house, and you say in the first
5 line when you got there:
6 "This must have been after 3.00 am. At the house
7 I recall seeing Pauline, Tracy's sister,
8 Shelley Liggett, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey,
9 Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, Marc Hobson, Stephen Bloomer,
10 P46", that is Stephen Sinnamon, "Chris Henderson and
11 Andrew Allen. Most were sleeping. I didn't hear any
12 talk about a row in the centre of the town. It was just
13 general chat. I left about 5.30, 5.45. Stephen Bloomer
14 and I got a taxi home from Call-a-Cab."
15 Now Andrew Allen, Allister Hanvey, Dean Forbes and
16 Marc Hobson are all named, by people who describe the
17 attack, as attackers of Mr Hamill. We have heard
18 from -- we have seen other statements to the effect
19 there was some talk about the fight in Tracy McAlpine's
20 house.
21 Now again, how is it that you didn't hear about any?
22 A. It says I arrived after 3 o'clock. Maybe the subjects
23 had changed. It was quite late when I arrived. The
24 party was already ...
25 Q. Tell us about the atmosphere at the party?
54
1 A. It was just the usual party, drink, obviously messing
2 about. There wasn't -- just there wasn't anything stuck
3 in my mind.
4 Q. You see, if you had seen the ambulance leave, which we
5 know was 2.02, what were you doing until after
6 3 o'clock?
7 A. Who knows?
8 Q. Well, the Panel would like to. Perhaps you would like
9 to tell them.
10 A. What was I doing in town from after 2.00?
11 Q. Uh-huh?
12 A. I've no idea. Probably normal, talking to people, food
13 possibly, walking.
14 Q. Talking to people about the good kicking they had just
15 given someone?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see what Allister Hanvey was wearing at the
18 party?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You are content, are you, with your evidence being that
21 you left about 5.30, 5.45?
22 A. It must have been, yes.
23 Q. Did there come a point where you needed to lie about any
24 part of what went on at that party --
25 A. No.
55
1 Q. -- to cover anybody's back?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have a look, would you, at page [70949]? This was
4 a questionnaire that you were asked to complete, we
5 think probably in early 2001. It was asking you and
6 asking a large number of people about what happened at
7 Tracy McAlpine's place and what Allister Hanvey was
8 wearing there.
9 Can I take you through to page [70951]? Halfway
10 down the page, do you see Q21 there:
11 "Question: What time did you leave the party?
12 "Answer: Only remained about half an hour."
13 Why did you say that?
14 A. I've no idea why I said that.
15 Q. You see, in May 1997 you were content to tell the police
16 that you were there several hours. You have just told
17 me that you were content with that evidence.
18 Yet, when you were asked specifically that question
19 directed to the issue, "Could you have seen what
20 Allister Hanvey was wearing and could you help the
21 police pin him down as a murderer?", there you are
22 saying you only remained there half an hour.
23 Now, would you like to explain yourself?
24 A. How long was this from the first statement.
25 Q. As I said, early 2001.
56
1 A. It is a long time.
2 Q. That's your answer, is it?
3 A. Four years had elapsed.
4 Q. Despite the fact that three minutes ago you told me you
5 were content with your evidence being you left there
6 about 5.30, 5.45?
7 A. That's what was written in front of me at that stage,
8 wasn't it?
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. As I say, other people may have
10 some questions for you.
11 MR O'HARE: No questions, sir.
12 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
13 MR FERGUSON: On 19th May 1997, the police actually called
14 up to your house. Isn't that correct?
15 A. They did, yes.
16 Q. Were you a bit surprised when the police called up to
17 your house to speak to you about this incident?
18 A. No, not really, I suppose.
19 Q. You weren't surprised?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Why was that?
22 A. Because there were rumours other people had visits from
23 the police that I was in company with.
24 Q. Rumours were going round that other people had been
25 spoken to by the police in whose company you were in,
57
1 and prior to the police calling up to speak to you on
2 19th May, had you been discussing the events of this
3 evening with those other people?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On 19th May, you were aware that Robert Hamill had died.
6 Isn't that correct?
7 A. Uh-huh, yes.
8 Q. When the police called up to your house, were you
9 anxious to help them?
10 A. Well, I answered the questions and what have you, so
11 I must have been, yes.
12 Q. Did you answer their questions truthfully in 1997?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Yes. Did you see what happened that night, Mr Carville,
15 the fight?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't hear anything?
18 A. I was the other side of town.
19 Q. But you saw the ambulance leave?
20 A. Apparently so.
21 Q. Why do you say, "Apparently so"?
22 A. That's what it says in the statement.
23 Q. You have already told Mr Underwood that you had seen
24 altercations before, but never seen an ambulance. Isn't
25 that correct?
58
1 A. Sorry. Repeat it again.
2 Q. You had already seen trouble in the town before. Isn't
3 that correct?
4 A. Prior to this incident?
5 Q. Yes, prior to this incident.
6 A. Bit and pieces, yes, just the normal Saturday nights.
7 Q. The normal Saturday night, but on those normal Saturday
8 nights you hadn't seen an ambulance?
9 A. No.
10 Q. No. The ambulance stuck out in your mind when you spoke
11 to the police on 19th May 1997, didn't it?
12 A. It must have, yes.
13 Q. Did you realise, Mr Carville, that the police were doing
14 their best to try to catch the people who were involved
15 in the assault on Robert Hamill that led to his death?
16 Did you realise that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But you weren't going to help them, sure you weren't?
19 A. If I wasn't going to help them, I wouldn't have let them
20 into my house.
21 Q. You wouldn't have let them into your house. Why did you
22 then tell the lie in 1991 (sic) when you were being
23 asked how long you remained at the party?
24 A. 2001?
25 Q. 2001, sorry.
59
1 A. It was a lie then? You are telling me I was lying about
2 how long I had been in the house and it was four years
3 before?
4 Q. Would you agree with me you were quite specific in 2001
5 when you told the police about half an hour?
6 A. That's what it said on the questionnaire.
7 Q. Would you agree with me that that's a world apart from
8 being there from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock or thereafter?
9 A. An hour's difference.
10 Q. An hour's difference. That's what you are putting it
11 down to?
12 A. There was a lot of drink taken and things. I wasn't
13 checking my watch every half an hour.
14 Q. So it was drink then?
15 A. It added to it, I suppose.
16 Q. Yes, but the drink didn't prevent your recollection in
17 relation to the ambulance, did it? Why won't you tell
18 us what you saw, Mr Carville?
19 A. In the town centre?
20 Q. Yes, that night.
21 A. I already have. I walked up into the town afterwards
22 and there was police, apparently an ambulance, according
23 to my statement, in the town and I walked through it to
24 the other side of it.
25 Q. You heard no chat about this fight after?
60
1 A. No.
2 Q. Either on the way to the house or in the house?
3 A. No, I mustn't have. It doesn't say it in my statement,
4 so ...
5 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.
6 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA
7 MR McKENNA: Just two brief matters, Mr Carville. You have
8 the map of Portadown there in front of you. Perhaps if
9 we could zoom into it a little. Thank you.
10 Now, you say that when you were coming up
11 High Street from the top right-hand corner of the
12 picture -- would that be right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you are coming along High Street and you pass
15 Edward Street and we know you go on up along
16 Market Street. That's right, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Towards the church. When you arrive, you saw the
19 ambulance pulling away?
20 A. It says in the statement, yes. I can't remember from
21 now.
22 Q. Was that your recollection at the time?
23 A. It must have been, yes, if it was in that statement.
24 Q. Did you see the ambulance arriving?
25 A. No, not that I can remember.
61
1 Q. Because we know that the ambulance left at 2.02, which
2 puts your timing out in terms of its departure. I think
3 you say it must have been 2.30, something like that, in
4 your statement at the time, but we know that it arrived
5 only four minutes earlier.
6 To get to the bottom of Thomas Street or approaching
7 the bottom of Thomas Street, it had to come down
8 Edward Street -- do you see Edward Street there on the
9 map --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- and turn left into High Street and drive up. That
12 was just a couple of minutes earlier. But you didn't
13 see that?
14 A. No, I didn't see it.
15 Q. No flashing lights, sirens, anything like that?
16 A. No, not from an ambulance.
17 Q. Then you say you go on up the town. Really, what you
18 see you say in your statement in 1997 was there was
19 a crowd heading out of the town towards Brownstown.
20 This was around the stage when the ambulance had just
21 left.
22 A. Right it must have been.
23 Q. Well, there is other evidence, Mr Carville, which would
24 suggest that at that stage police were dealing with that
25 crowd. They were actively pushing that crowd up
62
1 High Street. Did you see that?
2 A. No, I can't -- no recollection of that at all.
3 Q. In any event, you walked on up West Street and you met
4 a few more friends, according to your statement to
5 police, one of whom was a Stephen Bloomer.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. In fact, I think you say you went to the party with him?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. You arrived there at 3 o'clock, so can we take it that
10 you were in his company for an hour before you arrived
11 at the party?
12 A. Not necessarily. Possibly.
13 Q. Well, you appear to have arrived or gone to the party
14 together and you met him in West Street.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Do you accept that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You see, Mr Bloomer also gave a statement to police,
19 and, if he is correct, he describes an altercation --
20 a fight in town. He describes it as a fight. He heard
21 sirens, both police and ambulance.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. I know you have told us you did not hear them, but in
24 that hour that you were with him or certainly when you
25 met him initially, did he not tell you about this?
63
1 A. I can't even remember seeing him, to tell you the truth,
2 so I don't know what he would have discussed with me at
3 that stage.
4 Q. So you are not going to assist the Inquiry with what
5 even Mr Bloomer may have had to say about what went on
6 in town, what he told you?
7 A. I couldn't remember what he said to me at this stage.
8 MR McKENNA: Thank you, Mr Carville.
9 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
10 Cross-examination by MR GREEN
11 MR GREEN: Sir, just one question.
12 Mr Carville, you, after walking through the town,
13 ended up at a party you have told us about. Isn't that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If we could have page [9184] and split the screen,
17 please, with [09185]. It is the bottom part of the
18 first page, [09184], the bottom five or six lines:
19 "Chris and I walked up to the Cam Hing Chinese in
20 West Street and met a few more friends. We walked over
21 the footbridge into Edgarstown and Stephen Bloomer,
22 Marc Hobson and I think Allister Hanvey went to
23 Tracy McAlpine's house. I don't know where Chris went.
24 I eventually walked down to [blank] to Tracy's house and
25 joined the others there."
64
1 Does that mean that you walked to Tracy McAlpine's
2 house alone or did you walk there with Stephen Bloomer,
3 Marc Hobson and possibly Allister Hanvey? Can you
4 remember that?
5 A. No, I can't remember who I walked with.
6 Q. It suggests, if that statement is right, that you, in
7 fact, walked to the house and certainly the last part of
8 your walk was alone. Would I be right in that or can
9 you simply not remember?
10 A. I can't honestly remember.
11 Q. Because you seem to be saying:
12 "I eventually walked down ... and joined the others
13 there."
14 Who do you think you were referring to when you said
15 "the others"? Stephen Bloomer, Marc Hobson and
16 Allister Hanvey, or other people?
17 A. It must have been Stephen Bloomer, Allister Hanvey,
18 whoever was -- Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, that list sort
19 of there.
20 Q. Then you go on to say in that statement:
21 "This must have been after 3.00 am. At the house
22 I recall seeing Pauline, Tracy's sister,
23 Shelley Liggett, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey,
24 Dean Forbes, Jason Woods, Marc Hobson, Stephen Bloomer,
25 Stephen Sinnamon, Chris Henderson and Andrew Allen."
65
1 Are you sure that Marc Hobson was at that party
2 A. No, I'm not 100% sure now at all.
3 Q. Because you are the first person we have heard from who
4 was at that party who has, in fact, said that
5 Marc Hobson was at that party.
6 A. Then he may not have been.
7 Q. Can you just cast your mind back and, doing the best you
8 can -- it is probably not a very controversial thing,
9 but it is important for Mr Hobson that you get it right.
10 Can you remember seeing him there?
11 A. No, I can't remember at this stage, no.
12 Q. Do you think he might not have been there?
13 A. Possibly he could not have been there then, if I was the
14 only one who thought he was.
15 Q. You made that statement on 19th May 1997. How much had
16 you had to drink that night on 27th April?
17 A. Probably nothing.
18 Q. You were sober, were you?
19 A. When I made this?
20 Q. No, no. On 27th April, on the night in question, the
21 events you are dealing with, had you alcohol consumed?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. How much had you drunk?
24 A. Too much probably, the usual for a night out at
25 3 o'clock in the morning.
66
1 Q. Would you consider your condition at that time in the
2 morning to have been drunk?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR GREEN: Thank you.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: No further questions. Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: 2.05 pm.
10 (1.05 pm)
11 (The luncheon adjournment)
12 (2.05 pm)
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Noelle Moore, please.
14 MS NOELLE MOORE (sworn)
15 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Ms Moore.
17 A. Hello.
18 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
19 I will ask some questions initially. It may be, after
20 that, a few other people will have some questions for
21 you as well.
22 A. That's okay.
23 Q. Can I ask you your full names?
24 A. Noelle Moore.
25 Q. I want to ask about events of the early morning of
67
1 27th April 1997.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We all understand how long ago that was. So I am going
4 to attempt to help jog your memory by showing you some
5 documents, if that's all right.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. They will come up on the screen as we do. Can we look,
8 first of all, at page [08105]?
9 This is a document that is typed up from a form
10 quite different to what you would have seen. What was
11 happening some days after the matters we are talking
12 about is the police were going round asking people
13 questions if they thought those people might be able to
14 help them identify anybody who was present. They had
15 a typed form with blanks in it for people's answers to
16 be written in and then they typed this up entirely.
17 This is the one that is said to have been resulting from
18 your answers.
19 We see about a quarter of the way down that it is
20 dated 29th April 1997 at 6.50 in the evening. It starts
21 off after that with:
22 "Question: You have been identified as being present
23 at Market Street, Portadown on 27th April 1997 at or
24 around the time of a serious assault.
25 "Where were you coming from?
68
1 "Answer: Was in Edenderry from 7.30/8.00 pm with
2 Matthew Bloomer [blank] and [blank], [blank]. Walked up
3 the town at 1.45 am with the boys. Stopped at
4 Wellworths. Saw police at end of Thomas Street-town
5 centre."
6 One of the names blanked out there is [name redacted].
7 Does that ring any bells with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us where this was? We can look at a map or
10 a model if you want to, but can you remember very
11 roughly where it was?
12 A. Where I was?
13 Q. Where Wellworths was?
14 A. In about -- down towards the bottom of the town.
15 Q. Around Boss Hoggs?
16 A. Just up from Boss Hoggs on the same side.
17 Q. On the same side as Boss Hoggs but closer up towards
18 Thomas Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Going back to [08105], we have you then being asked:
21 "Question: Who was with you?"
22 You say -- in fact, that's Matthew Bloomer and
23 xxxxxxxxxxxx who have been blanked out there.
24 Then 4 is:
25 "Question: Who else was in the vicinity? (describe
69
1 location in relation to themselves and their accounts of
2 movement through town centre).
3 The answer that is given for you is:
4 "Answer: Both Bloomer and [name redacted] walked back
5 towards the bottom of the town from Wellworths.
6 Noelle Moore walked up to the church, met Lisa Hobson.
7 Stayed with her for the rest of the night. Later met
8 Kenneth Milligan", and some others, "in Jervis Street."
9 Then if we go over the page, [08106]:
10 "Q5. Did you see an assault in Market Street? If
11 so, give details.
12 "Answer: Assault had taken place."
13 If we jump a question and go down to question 7:
14 "Q7. What were you wearing on the night in
15 question?
16 "Answer: Brown jeans, blue Umbro sweatshirt with
17 silver/grey Umbro logo on the front. Black bomber
18 jacket (plain) and black CAT boots.
19 "Q8. Is there anything else you would like to add?
20 "Answer: Heard that the assault was carried out by
21 ones who had got off the Coach bus."
22 Now, having seen that, doing the best you can with
23 your memory after 12 years, can you describe the events,
24 please, when you walked up and you were at Wellworths
25 and so on and things happened? Was there a Land Rover?
70
1 A. As I was coming up the town, the police were pushing
2 people up towards the church.
3 Q. Did you see a police Land Rover or any other police
4 vehicles?
5 A. I can't remember.
6 Q. All right. In relation to the junction, the
7 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street junction, were they
8 further away from you than the junction or were they
9 between you and the junction when they were doing this?
10 A. The police were on up the town at the church.
11 Q. Right. How many people do you think they were pushing
12 up? Was it a classroom full of 40 or so or what?
13 A. About 20 or 30.
14 Q. Okay. What was the atmosphere? Was this a jolly
15 experience or was it violent and aggressive or what?
16 A. I was just walking up home just. I wasn't ... and then
17 just walked up past the police and on up towards home.
18 Q. But what was the relationship like between the police
19 and the people they were pushing up? Was this jolly
20 bantering or was it violent or what?
21 A. People were shouting at the police.
22 Q. Swearing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were they trying to get past them?
25 A. I don't know. No.
71
1 Q. Was it a line of police right the way across the road
2 with people coming round -- with people unable to come
3 round the edges, or was it a group of police with people
4 trying to come round the edges of them or what?
5 A. I can't remember.
6 Q. Okay. You say you got past this?
7 A. Yes. I walked on up then past the church.
8 Q. How did you get past this group? Did you have to force
9 your way through the police or did they let you through?
10 A. No, no. Just like walked past.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it, so to speak, one way? You could go
12 up, but you weren't supposed to come down. Is that it?
13 A. Yes, you just walked straight up the town.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Did you walk around the side of all this or
15 did you walk through it?
16 A. It was probably through it.
17 Q. When you told the police in this answer to question 8
18 that you heard that the assault was carried out by ones
19 who had got off the Coach bus, you were able to say that
20 on this 29th April 1997 occasion. So in the period
21 between the morning of the 27th and the evening of
22 the 29th somebody told you that the assault was carried
23 out by ones who had got off the bus.
24 Can you tell us about that?
25 A. I can't remember.
72
1 Q. As far as you were concerned, when you were walking up
2 the town, there was swearing at the police who were
3 pushing people up. You walked past it, through it,
4 didn't see any violence. Is that right?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. When was the first you knew that something serious had
7 happened?
8 A. When I seen it on the news the next morning.
9 Q. Was that the next morning then?
10 A. The next morning, yes.
11 Q. Then you get yourself in a position where you are able
12 to tell the police that you had heard that was carried
13 out by ones who had got off the Coach bus.
14 How many people did you come into contact with who
15 might have known about that in the couple of days
16 afterwards?
17 A. It was just being out and about and heard stuff.
18 Q. I think you were at school at the time. Was that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you have heard at school?
21 A. No. I think I was at Lurgan Tech, I think.
22 Q. So could you have heard it there?
23 A. I don't think so.
24 Q. All right.
25 Then if we look at page [09156], this is a statement
73
1 you made on 1st May, so about three weeks later. You
2 spend the first three lines saying who you were with.
3 On the third line on the right-hand side you say:
4 "It was about 1.45 am when we got up the town. The
5 police had a crowd of people held back up towards the
6 church. At that stage, there was nothing about the town
7 except the police. While we were walking from
8 Edenderry, someone told us that there had been a fight
9 up the town but we didn't see it."
10 Is that right?
11 A. Well, if I said it in my statement, it must have been.
12 Q. So you didn't hear about it the next morning?
13 A. I heard just it was a fight. I didn't realise it was
14 serious, just a simple fight.
15 Q. All right:
16 "I walked on up then towards the church, St Mark's.
17 I walked up towards West Street, and Lisa Hobson, she
18 came over to me and asked me where I was going. I told
19 her I was going home. Lisa joined me and we walked
20 towards Jervis Street and met xxxxxxxxxxx and
21 Kenny Milligan and Lee Stockdale. We stood talking for
22 a while and then all went home."
23 Was that true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So, having got past the police and the crowd then, you
74
1 meet Lisa Hobson. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you spend any time there once you had met her or did
4 you go straight on?
5 A. Just straight on up.
6 Q. Okay.
7 If we then look at page [08151], we see another one
8 of these questionnaires. This one is not yours. This
9 is Jennifer O'Neill's. Did you know her?
10 A. Just to see.
11 Q. Okay. This was completed on 13th May. If we take the
12 second half of it, she is asked:
13 "Question: Where were you coming from?
14 "Answer: Coach Inn.
15 "Question: Who was with you?
16 "Answer: Victoria Clayton. Kyle Magee.
17 "Question: Who else was in the vicinity?
18 "Answer: Noelle Moore at St Mark's Church.
19 "Question: Did you see an assault in Market Street?
20 If so, give details.
21 "Answer: Stood at church. Observed approx
22 20 persons in centre of town. Approx 10 of those were
23 fighting."
24 So now, there is a girl you knew who says that you
25 were at St Mark's Church at the same time as her and she
75
1 sees 20 people in the centre of town, 10 of them
2 fighting.
3 Now, would you like to tell us how she could have
4 said that?
5 A. She didn't see me.
6 Q. How could you be sure of that?
7 A. Well, I didn't see her.
8 Q. Was that because you were so busy looking at the
9 fighting?
10 A. I didn't see no fighting.
11 Q. Were you in a crowd that was being pushed back by the
12 police?
13 A. I walked up through them, yes.
14 Q. As part of a crowd?
15 A. No, not as part of the crowd.
16 Q. If we look at page [09153], this is the first page of
17 Jennifer O'Neill's statement to the police,
18 13th May 1997. Actually, I want to go over the
19 page, [09154], to show you the first half of it. She is
20 describing she heard shouting coming from the direction
21 of the town centre:
22 "The three of us", and I am not suggesting you were
23 one of the three; it is her and two other people, "stood
24 at the green gate at the side of St Mark's Church and
25 looked down the street. I could see approximately
76
1 20 people in the middle of the street about the middle
2 of the town. About 10 of these people were fighting
3 with each other. I observed people throwing punches at
4 each other and others running about. I heard people
5 shouting, 'Fenian bastards', and there was one fellow
6 shouting, 'Orange bastards'.
7 "I could see a police car parked outside Wellworths.
8 I observed it drive up the street with two-tone horns
9 on. It was one of them police cars with the stripes.
10 It parked about Wellworths. I didn't see anybody lying
11 on the street. The crowd that was fighting was a good
12 distance down the street from me. There was a fair
13 crowd standing around us beside us and I spoke to
14 Noelle Moore. I just met her as I started to walk off.
15 Noelle lives in Portadown, I think", and gives the
16 address. "I think she was with other girls, about
17 three."
18 She has gone on, by this stage 13th May, in her
19 statement to say that she spoke to you.
20 Now, do you deny that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You have to deny it, don't you, because if she is
23 telling the truth about that, then you would have been
24 able to see fighting, people shouting, "Fenian
25 bastards", and, "Orange bastards", the police car coming
77
1 up the street with its two-tone horns on and you have
2 consistently told the police you were nowhere near this.
3 Is that why you are denying it?
4 A. No, I wasn't nowhere near it.
5 Q. Can you offer any explanation why this lady should put
6 you there?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did she hate you for some reason?
9 A. Could have done.
10 Q. Then let's look, shall we, at page [09225]? About
11 two-thirds of the way down. This is a statement of
12 27th April 1997. He is one of the policeman who was
13 called there to deal with what he regarded as a riot.
14 What he says, four lines down from this, is:
15 "In Market Street I saw two persons lying on the
16 left-hand carriageway near the junction with
17 Thomas Street and a crowd of approximately 30 to 40
18 people about 10 feet in front of them with several
19 police officers in between them trying to hold the crowd
20 back. A police Land Rover was parked across the road at
21 the entrance to Woodhouse Street.
22 "Two females and a male were close to the injured
23 persons. They were quite hysterical and were shouting
24 and screaming towards the crowd and were shouting for
25 an ambulance to be called. There was broken glass lying
78
1 around where the injured persons were lying and around
2 the police Land Rover. Persons in the crowd were
3 shouting and jeering towards the police and the injured
4 persons and members of the crowd were constantly trying
5 to push past police to try and get towards the injured
6 persons. The two males lying on the road seemed to be",
7 overleaf, [09226], "unconscious and both had blood
8 around their faces.
9 "Other police also arrived at the scene around this
10 time. I approached the crowd along with other police
11 and started to move them back towards West Street. I
12 recognised the following persons at the front of the
13 crowd. Stacey Bridgett from [address]. His nose was
14 bleeding. P53 from [blank]. He was wearing
15 a multi-coloured checked shirt. Rory Robinson of
16 [blank] was wearing a yellow-coloured shirt with a fine
17 check through it and beige-coloured trousers. [blank]
18 of [blank] was wearing a black leather jacket and blue
19 denim trousers.
20 "On several occasions, while we were holding this
21 crowd back and trying to move them towards West Street,
22 I spoke to Robinson and [blank] and asked them to move
23 up the street. Both refused to move and each of them
24 tried to push past myself and other police on several
25 occasions. I also recognised the following persons
79
1 among the crowd. Timothy Jameson and Andrew Hill who
2 was wearing a navy jacket and blue denims. I also saw
3 a male person in the crowd wearing a grey Umbro
4 sweatshirt, fawn trousers and black and white trainers,
5 a female with long, dark, curly hair, wearing a black
6 jacket and black trousers and a girl wearing a grey
7 Adidas top and purple denims.
8 "I later spoke to these persons in Jervis Street
9 Portadown at 5.50 am and identified them as
10 Kenneth Milligan, Lisa Hobson and Noelle Moore
11 respectively."
12 How been earth can you come here and tell us you did
13 not see any of this?
14 A. I didn't.
15 Q. They are all lying, are they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. A man was murdered. Are you interested in that?
18 A. Sorry?
19 Q. A man was murdered. Are you interested in that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How could you have walked up this street with this going
22 on and tell us you didn't see it?
23 A. I didn't see it.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: No further questions.
25
80
1 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
2 MR FERGUSON: Have you any recollection of a policeman
3 speaking to you some time in around 5.50 or so in the
4 morning?
5 A. I vaguely remember it, yes.
6 Q. In Jervis Street?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What were you doing in Jervis Street at that time?
9 A. We had just been sitting talking.
10 Q. Right. Had you seen that policeman before that night?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You hadn't seen him at the scene?
13 A. No.
14 Q. He says he saw you at the scene. Are you saying he is
15 telling lies about that?
16 A. No. It wasn't me.
17 Q. It wasn't you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The policeman whom you saw, Constable Cooke, did you
20 give him your name, date of birth? Do you remember
21 that?
22 A. I must have.
23 Q. You must have. You are denying your presence at the
24 time of this incident. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
81
1 Q. So either you are mistaken, to put it at its lowest, or
2 this police constable is mistaken. Can you help us?
3 A. The clothes that I was wearing doesn't even match what
4 the police constable said I was wearing in his witness
5 statement.
6 Q. The police constable took your name and your date of
7 birth?
8 A. Yes, that was in Jervis Street.
9 Q. You accept that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You accept he spoke to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But you don't accept he is right when he says that he
14 saw you at the scene?
15 A. No.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Ferguson asked you what you were doing in
17 Jervis Street at 5.50 am and you told us you were
18 talking, but why were you there at that time of the
19 morning?
20 A. It is just something you done when you were young.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Had you been home in the night?
22 A. Had I been home that night?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You hadn't?
24 A. No, not until after that.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So had you been out of doors all the night?
82
1 A. Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: In this sort of area?
3 A. Round Brownstown, yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: But you had heard nothing about there having
5 been trouble?
6 A. No.
7 MR EMMERSON: Thank you.
8 MR ADAIR: No questions.
9 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
10 MR McGRORY: I have some questions, sir.
11 I would like to ask you some questions, Ms Moore, on
12 behalf of the Hamill family.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, do you understand the importance of your evidence
15 today? Mr Underwood for the Inquiry has already asked
16 you this.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We are talking about an event in the centre of Portadown
19 on 27th April 1997 which resulted in the death of a man.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. An incident during which it is alleged he was punched
22 and kicked while on the ground, causing such injuries as
23 a result of which he died some ten days later. Do you
24 understand that?
25 A. Yes.
83
1 Q. That when the police set out to interview people many,
2 many people from the Portadown area who were identified
3 as being in the centre of town that night, they did so
4 in an effort to try to find out who might have committed
5 this murder?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you somebody who would withhold information about
10 a murder if you had it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you sure about that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If we could just have your statement up, please, it is
15 page [09156]. Now, your direct evidence to the Inquiry
16 this afternoon as to what happened -- as to what you did
17 on that night is pretty much in line with this
18 statement, is it not, that you were in the company of
19 [name redacted] and Matthew Bloomer in Edenderry earlier
20 in the evening. Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That you came up towards the town around 1.45 am.
23 That's your recollection?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That you met somebody who told you there had been
84
1 a fight in the town?
2 A. That's what it says, yes.
3 Q. That's as if the fight was over really, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that you went on up into the town and all you saw
6 was a crowd of people. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You saw nobody kicking anybody?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Nobody fighting with anybody?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You didn't see an ambulance?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You didn't see police running around trying to catch
15 people?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't see any of that?
18 A. They were just pushing people up the town.
19 Q. You told them you had met Lisa Hobson. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Then you told them Lisa joined up. You walked towards
22 Jervis Street and met xxxxxxxxxx, Kenny Milligan and
23 Lee Stockdale:
24 "We stood talking for a while and then all went
25 home."
85
1 Now, we know the "all went home" bit is not true,
2 don't we?
3 A. I said we stood talking.
4 Q. If you stood talking until 5.50 in the morning that was
5 for five hours.
6 A. Then we sat about talking.
7 Q. For five hours, and then you all went home?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You didn't see fit to tell the police that in 1997?
10 A. Whenever they took my name at that time, then they knew
11 I was out until that time.
12 Q. Maybe the police officer who took this statement from
13 you on 18th May hadn't that information in front of him.
14 I am suggesting to you what you were doing on
15 18th May is you were trying to suggest that you went
16 home fairly quickly after all of this. You weren't
17 letting on you were around until 5.50 in the morning?
18 A. It doesn't say I went home quickly.
19 Q. I know it doesn't. I am suggesting to you that you have
20 left out a bit of information.
21 A. Just that I sat about talking.
22 Q. Well, if somebody sat about talking, they might have
23 seen what had happened right through. They might have
24 picked up some information.
25 A. No.
86
1 Q. Are you sure that's the truth?
2 Now, let's just talk about [name redacted] and
3 Matthew Bloomer. When did you part company with them?
4 A. At Wellworths.
5 Q. At Wellworths?
6 A. (Witness nods).
7 Q. In what direction did they go?
8 A. Back towards Killycomain.
9 Q. That's away from the town. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Perhaps I could have page [08139] on the screen, please.
12 This is a questionnaire of answers given by
13 [name redacted] to the police in or about the time of the
14 incident.
15 Do you understand that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He was told he had been identified as being present at
18 Market Street in Portadown on 27th April.
19 Do you see that at the very top, the very top of the
20 page on the screen now?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you see that question:
23 "You have been identified as being present at
24 Market Street, Portadown on 27th April ..."
25 Do you see that?
87
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then:
3 "Question: Where were you coming from?
4 "Answer: Was at Regal snooker club and in vicinity
5 around 1.00 am and seen one ambulance heading into town.
6 Went to see what was going on.
7 "Question: Who was with you?
8 "Answer: Matthew Bloomer.
9 "Question: Who else was in the vicinity? Did you
10 see an assault?"
11 If we can go over the page to [08140], he was asked:
12 "Question: Is there anything else you would like to
13 add?
14 "Answer: Police caught fellow running from
15 Woodhouse Street towards church. Scarf up over face.
16 Didn't see what police did because he left at that
17 stage. Wearing Rangers scarf."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, this is [name redacted] telling the police that he
21 witnessed something about which this Inquiry has already
22 heard some evidence. I am suggesting to you that there
23 was indeed a chap apprehended by police wearing
24 a Rangers scarf, and that that was right smack bang in
25 the middle of the whole incident. In fact, he was
88
1 arrested by a Constable A or apprehended at around
2 1.55 am, which is a few minutes before the ambulance
3 arrived.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. And during -- at a time when this trouble was at its
6 peak. Mr [name redacted] witnessed that.
7 Now, you have just told us that Mr [name redacted] left
8 your company and walked back outwards from the town. So
9 he mustn't have done that. Do you accept that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, are you lying about this?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Because Mr [name redacted] saw this. We are about to hear some
14 evidence from Matthew Bloomer, who was in your company.
15 Now, could I have [08124] on the screen, please?
16 This is another questionnaire. This time it is
17 Matthew Bloomer's when he was asked shortly after the
18 incident what he had seen.
19 He says earlier in the questionnaire he was in your
20 company. You don't deny that. Is that right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. He says:
23 "Seen ambulance and person being put into it. No
24 fighting or nothing."
25 So if he left with [name redacted], he couldn't have
89
1 seen the ambulance. Do you accept that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you still say you are telling us the truth?
4 A. I am telling you the truth.
5 Q. That Matthew Bloomer and [name redacted] left you before
6 you got to the crossroads and headed in the other
7 direction?
8 A. I thought they went back home.
9 Q. You see, I am suggesting to you that you all saw
10 an awful lot more than you are letting on you saw, you
11 in particular.
12 A. Why me?
13 Q. Because we have evidence that we are putting to you,
14 Ms Moore, that you were present throughout this
15 incident?
16 A. No, I wasn't.
17 Q. And that you have withheld important information.
18 A. No, I'm not.
19 Q. Now, would you have known any of the following
20 personalities: Allister Hanvey?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Dean Forbes?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Stacey Bridgett?
25 A. No.
90
1 Q. Marc Hobson?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Andrew Allen?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn't know any of them?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But if you had been in close proximity to a fight and
8 had been able to describe whether you recognised them or
9 not, what the people involved in the fight looked like,
10 would you have told the police?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But you didn't give them any information about this
13 incident, sure you didn't?
14 A. Because I wasn't there.
15 Q. Well, I am suggesting to you that you were there?
16 A. Well, I wasn't.
17 Q. Well, the Inquiry will take a decision on that at some
18 future stage, Ms Moore.
19 Now, I just want to ask you about events between
20 then and now.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Certainly there was a considerable amount of police
23 activity immediately after this incident in terms of
24 identifying people who were present in the centre of
25 Portadown that night.
91
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the region of over 50 people, I am suggesting to you,
3 were identified.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Of whom you were one. They went round their houses and
6 they identified -- and they located them and they spoke
7 to them and asked them questions.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you accept that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, do you agree that this would have been a notable
12 event in Portadown at the time amongst your generation?
13 A. What do you mean?
14 Q. Well, amongst people who were between the ages of 16
15 and, say, 20, 21 and who were all in or about the centre
16 of Portadown on 27th April, that it would have been
17 known that the police wanted to know what happened?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You, yourself, were spoken to?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I suggest you lied to them, of course.
22 A. I didn't lie.
23 Q. You were spoken to. Did you ask Matthew Bloomer or
24 [name redacted] had they been spoken to?
25 A. No.
92
1 Q. Well, they had been friends of yours for some six months
2 you said. Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You knew Lisa Hobson. Isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You knew her a bit better. Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Well, did you ask her did anybody speak to her?
9 A. Not that I can remember.
10 Q. Nobody said to you, "My goodness! The police are on to
11 me about this incident"? Nobody said a thing?
12 A. Not that I can remember, no.
13 Q. Well, of course, a man has died by this stage, after
14 10th May. Isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were aware of that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did nobody say, "You know that fellow who was beaten up
19 in the centre of town? He died"? Nobody said that?
20 A. I seen it on the news.
21 Q. Yes, but did nobody talk about it?
22 A. Not that I can remember, no.
23 Q. Not at all? Then quite some years later this Inquiry is
24 established and in or about the spring of 2006 the
25 Inquiry embarks on the exercise of interviewing people
93
1 who were in the centre of town that night.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, the Inquiry interviewed all of those people who had
4 been identified by the police and maybe some.
5 During the months of February, March, April and
6 May 2006, all of those people, including you, were
7 interviewed.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In order for those interviews to be arranged, they all
10 had to be contacted by phone or by letter. Do you
11 accept that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember how you were contacted?
14 A. By letter.
15 Q. By letter. Were you aware at the time that a number of
16 other people were being contacted?
17 A. Well, I knew I wasn't the only one that had been
18 contacted.
19 Q. Well, in order to know you weren't the only one, you
20 must have heard of others. Isn't that right?
21 A. Well, I knew I wasn't the only one that got a letter.
22 Q. In order to know you weren't the only one, you must have
23 heard on the grapevine that others were being contacted?
24 A. No. I just knew by getting a letter that I'm not the
25 only one that's going to get a letter from an Inquiry.
94
1 Q. Let's just take it from there.
2 Having received the letter and had the thought, as
3 you have disclosed to us, "I mustn't be the only one",
4 did you at that point ask anybody else who you knew was
5 there?
6 A. I don't think so, no.
7 Q. Did anybody ever say to you?
8 A. No, I don't think so.
9 Q. Did you ever run into Matthew Bloomer or [name redacted]
10 or Lisa Hobson?
11 A. I haven't seen them in years. Well, I seen Lisa, but
12 I haven't seen Matthew or [name redacted] in years.
13 Q. How did you then go about arranging your Inquiry
14 interview after you got the letter? What did you do
15 then?
16 A. I went to my solicitor, I think.
17 Q. Yes. Who is your solicitor?
18 A. Mr Monteith.
19 Q. He was just a solicitor you knew or you had used before
20 or something. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You just thought, "I'll take this to Mr Monteith"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Why did you think you needed to take it to Mr Monteith?
25 A. My dad could have told me to. I don't know. I just
95
1 took it to a solicitor.
2 Q. Sorry. Did you say your dad?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did he get Mr Monteith for you?
5 A. He told me to go to a solicitor and I went to
6 Mr Monteith.
7 Q. There would be no chance, would there be, Ms Moore, that
8 you might have asked around what any others who got the
9 letters were doing and whom they were going to?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. No? You see, what I am suggesting to you is that the
12 people of Portadown who were connected with this
13 incident, certainly the young people who came off the
14 bus and other young people like you who were in town,
15 who hadn't got off the bus, all resolved to a man and
16 woman to tell this Inquiry absolutely nothing. That's
17 what I am suggesting to you.
18 You see, there were some 29 people interviewed by
19 this Inquiry who came off the bus. Quite a number of
20 them have given evidence in the last couple of weeks,
21 and not one of them has told the Inquiry anything more
22 than they had ever previously said.
23 I am also going to suggest to you that of a possible
24 further 20 people who weren't on the bus, and I include
25 you in that group, still everybody is coming and saying,
96
1 "I saw nothing".
2 You can't comment on that?
3 I am suggesting that you have all spoken to one
4 another or some of you have spoken to some others. The
5 bizarre thing is, you see, that Mr Monteith represents
6 of that 50, 40. You all found your way to him by
7 accident?
8 A. Mr Monteith had done -- been in court with my boyfriend,
9 so just ...
10 Q. Yes. Well, your Inquiry statement was sent out to you,
11 was it not? A statement was formed out of your
12 interview and was sent out to you. Do you remember
13 that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you sign the statement?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No. That's another thing you have in common apart from
18 your lapse of memory or your inability to see anything
19 with all of these people who went to Mr Monteith, that
20 none of them have signed their Inquiry statements.
21 Now, why did you not sign the Inquiry statement?
22 A. Because I am under no obligation to sign it.
23 Q. Yes. You see, that's another thing in common with all
24 of you people who either saw nothing or might have seen
25 something but have now forgotten what you had seen and
97
1 who went to Mr Monteith. None of you have signed your
2 Inquiry statement and you all trot out the same line,
3 "We are under no obligation to".
4 Now, are you still saying that of the group of young
5 people in Portadown centre that day, you haven't all at
6 some point, or some of you, discussed with some others
7 that the last thing you are going to do is give this
8 Inquiry any help?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I am suggesting to you that you are one of the last of
11 a line of witnesses we have been listening to now for
12 the best part of two weeks, Ms Moore --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- and that the only conclusion this Inquiry can come to
15 is that there has been an orchestrated and deliberate
16 attempt to frustrate this Inquiry among those of you who
17 were present on the night of 27th April.
18 Can you comment on that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In fact, there is a wall of silence, and that some quite
21 long number of years now since Robert Hamill was
22 murdered, that perhaps the least that anybody might do
23 is assist his family in finding out just exactly what
24 happened to him.
25 A. I wasn't there, so I can't tell you.
98
1 MR McGRORY: No. I have no further questions.
2 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE
3 MS DINSMORE: Just two brief matters. Can we have your date
4 of birth, please?
5 A. XXXXXXXXXX
6 Q. So that would have left you 17?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Had you been drinking that evening?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you remember what you were drinking or how much you
11 had drunk?
12 A. It was probably Buckfast.
13 Q. Can you remember how much Buckfast?
14 A. I was drunk.
15 MS DINSMORE: You were drunk. Thank you.
16 MR McCOMB: No questions.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free to go.
19 A. Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Matthew Bloomer, please.
22 MR MATTHEW JOHN BLOOMER (sworn)
23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Bloomer.
25 A. Afternoon.
99
1 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
2 I have got some questions for you. At the end of that,
3 some other people may have a few more.
4 Can I ask you your full names, please?
5 A. It is Matthew John Bloomer.
6 Q. I want to ask you about events of 27th April 1997. To
7 jog your memory, can I show you a document at
8 page [08123]?
9 This document is the result of a questionnaire that
10 the police were going round asking people and one of the
11 people they asked was you. This was completed and typed
12 up. We see it is dated 2nd May 1997.
13 If we pick it up just there, it starts with saying:
14 "Question: You have been identified as being present
15 at Market Street, Portadown, on 27th April 1997 at or
16 around the time of a serious assault.
17 "Where were you coming from?
18 "Answer: Around Regal snooker club until 1.30 am to
19 1.45 am. Heading home at this stage.
20 "Question: Who was with you?"
21 It has been blanked out in our version, but
22 "[name redacted]", is the answer you gave there. Is that
23 right? Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then going on:
100
1 "Question: Who else was in the vicinity?
2 "Answer: Noelle Moore.
3 "Question: Did you see an assault in Market Street?
4 If so, give details.
5 "Answer: No."
6 Over the page, [08124]:
7 "Question: Is there anything else you would like to
8 add?"
9 There was something else you wanted to add:
10 "Answer: Seen ambulance and person being put into
11 it. No fighting or nothing."
12 Now, can you help us with your progress up the road?
13 You started at the bottom of the town, did you, down by
14 Boss Hoggs, that sort of area?
15 A. No. I was up toward the River Bann.
16 Q. You are going to have to help me with this, if you
17 would?
18 A. Right. Okay.
19 Q. If we look at a map, does this map cover the area or
20 not?
21 A. Could you just identify Herron's to me, so I know where
22 I am?
23 Q. If we open it up again.
24 A. Right. I would have been down this direction here.
25 Q. If we do a screen shot of this, then you will be able to
101
1 mark on it, I hope.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. I think it is ready to go now, if you want.
4 A. Right. It is just slightly off the map, but it is
5 down...
6 Q. Up that area?
7 A. Yes, further on.
8 Q. Where were you making your way towards?
9 A. We were going home at this stage. I think I can
10 remember seeing -- we had been down there drinking. We
11 seen an ambulance going up the road so we just went up
12 to have a look.
13 Q. Were you aiming towards West Street at that point or
14 where?
15 A. No. I live in the opposite direction.
16 Q. Right. Okay. So you weren't intending to go through
17 the town?
18 A. No.
19 Q. But something drew your attention to it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That something was the ambulance. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I can also recall seeing a police car of some sort.
25 Q. Let's see if I can help you here. We know there was
102
1 a police Land Rover marked in the middle and at least
2 two police cars turned up, probably with blue flashing
3 lights on.
4 Can you tell us if it was a police car with flashing
5 lights?
6 A. I think it was an unmarked police car. I can't remember
7 whether it was before or after the ambulance drove up.
8 Q. How far up the town did you get to see this?
9 A. I only went to Herron's. Do you want me to mark it on
10 the map again?
11 Q. Would you please?
12 A. Here, Herron's. I stood there.
13 Q. Right. We will give numbers to this just for the sake
14 of good order. The first marking will be number 1 and
15 the marking you just made number 2, please.
16 Doing the best we can, we think the ambulance was
17 probably parked on the High Street just before it got to
18 Thomas Street.
19 Does that help you with your memory of where it
20 would have been?
21 Zoom in on this. Perhaps we can't. Let me go back
22 to the standard map and zoom in so I can show you. You
23 see, in the centre of town here we have Woodhouse Street
24 going up and Thomas Street going down, only you can't
25 see the words "Thomas Street" on here.
103
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. The best we can do is that the ambulance was on the
3 High Street a bit to the right of the top of
4 Thomas Street. What's your recollection of that?
5 A. Yes. That would have been about the right direction
6 from Herron's.
7 Q. Can you help us with anything else you saw going on
8 there? Were there police out on the street, did you
9 see?
10 A. Not that I can recall. The only flashback I have of
11 that incident is, first of all, an ambulance and
12 a police car going past, which drew us up there. We
13 milled about there for ten minutes and seen somebody
14 getting stretchered into an ambulance and that was it
15 really.
16 Q. Was there anybody else around where you were?
17 A. I am sure there was people around, but I can't recall
18 anybody specifically.
19 Q. Do you know Boss Hoggs? It is on this map. It is
20 marked at C.
21 A. C, yes.
22 Q. It is the Subway now, if that's any help.
23 A. Right. Okay.
24 Q. Do you recall anybody around there?
25 A. No, I can't recall anybody.
104
1 Q. Do you recall any other activity? Was anybody going
2 towards the area where the ambulance was?
3 A. I'm sure there was people about, but I can't recall
4 anything specific, anybody going anywhere or anything,
5 you know.
6 Q. It is perfectly understandable why the sight of a police
7 car and perhaps an ambulance would draw your attention.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Can you help us with why you looked at it from
10 a distance, why you didn't go closer?
11 A. I just didn't want to get involved really. You know, if
12 you see somebody getting stretchered into an ambulance,
13 you don't want to go up and start getting involved.
14 I am not that type of person.
15 Q. Okay. We know that the ambulance was there between 1.58
16 and 2.02. Can you help us with timing? Have you got
17 any recollection of time?
18 A. It would have been around that time. You know, I have
19 no idea.
20 Q. You explained in that questionnaire that you gave to the
21 police that Noelle Moore was in the vicinity.
22 Can you help us with where she was compared with
23 you? Had you been walking with her or what?
24 A. At this minute in time, I can't really remember, but
25 from my statement it says she was there, so I presume
105
1 I walked up with her or she was in the vicinity.
2 I don't know.
3 Q. Have you any recollection of where you and she parted
4 company?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did she walk up through the town, can you remember, or
7 stay with you?
8 A. She didn't stay with me. I don't know where she went,
9 to be honest.
10 Q. Okay. Could she have -- when you said in this
11 questionnaire that she was in the vicinity, did you mean
12 by that that she was in the vicinity of Edenderry with
13 you, the Regal snooker club that is, or she was in this
14 end of Portadown with you or what?
15 A. I would have meant Edenderry.
16 Q. Right.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Was she in your company at all that evening?
18 A. Yes, she would have been.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: But that's the last you can recall of seeing
20 her, at Edenderry?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you been told that the purpose of this Inquiry is
23 to investigate the police and their actions on the
24 night?
25 A. Yes, I have.
106
1 Q. You understand, of course, that somebody died. The
2 person you saw going into the stretcher was dead within
3 ten days -- into the ambulance rather.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Is there anything else you can help us with that might
6 have a bearing on who else was about, what they might
7 have been doing, what the police were doing?
8 A. No, I can't recall it.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. As I say, some other
10 people might have some questions.
11 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
12 MR ADAIR: No questions.
13 MR McGRORY: I have some few questions.
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
15 MR McGRORY: I would like to ask you some questions, please,
16 on behalf of the Hamill family.
17 Do you remember [name redacted] being in your company
18 that night as well?
19 A. At the minute, I can't, but I am sure he was with me
20 that night. I would have knocked about with him.
21 Q. Yes. You aren't still pally with him by any chance?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You see, Noelle Moore has just given evidence and she
24 has told us that the three of you were in company
25 together. You said earlier you did remember
107
1 Noelle Moore.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Now, she says that you came up Bridge Street into
4 High Street, but at some point perhaps just before
5 getting into High Street she told us that yourself and
6 [name redacted] left and went back the other direction.
7 A. Uh-huh. I didn't go up the High Street. I didn't go
8 past Country Fried Chicken.
9 Q. You see, you have told us that you heard an ambulance.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Then that you were -- you thought you were about for
12 ten minutes and saw the ambulance leave.
13 Isn't that what you just told us a few minutes ago?
14 A. No, that can't -- I have no memory of the ambulance
15 leaving.
16 Q. You have no memory of the ambulance leaving. Maybe
17 I have got that wrong. Do you remember the ambulance
18 arriving?
19 A. I remember seeing it going past, which is what drew me
20 to the town centre, but, you know, at this time I can't
21 remember it leaving. I can just remember that
22 flashback.
23 Q. If I could have [08124] on the screen, please, this is
24 a questionnaire that you answered on 2nd May 1997, not
25 long after the incident.
108
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mind if I just ask one question so
2 that I understand what you have said to us?
3 You say you remember the ambulance going past. Do
4 you remember it going past you? Is that what you mean?
5 A. Seeing it going past, yes. I was at Edenderry and seen
6 the ambulance driving past.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Past you?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
10 MR McGRORY: The questionnaire there suggests you saw
11 an ambulance and a person being put into it. There was
12 no fighting or nothing. So that would suggest you told
13 the police back in 1997 that you did see the ambulance
14 leaving. You saw a person being put into it, rather, at
15 least.
16 A. Yes, I seen somebody being put into it.
17 Q. That's my fault. Maybe you didn't say at any time you
18 had seen it leaving, but you certainly saw somebody
19 being put into it?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. You see, there will be other evidence that the ambulance
22 was there for all of about four minutes.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. One of the difficulties we have, not necessarily with
25 your evidence, but with other evidence, is that
109
1 certainly Noelle Moore, it has been suggested by
2 Constable Cooke, was seen in the sort of thick of the
3 crowd --
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. -- that was being pushed back up the street. Can you
6 help us with that at all?
7 A. That's for her to answer. I didn't go up the town with
8 her. She would have been an acquaintance, so, you
9 know ...
10 Q. Yes. Certainly [name redacted], he -- tell us again just
11 what your memory of [name redacted] is, when he left and
12 how long he was there for?
13 A. At this minute, I can't remember.
14 Q. You can't remember?
15 A. No.
16 Q. But he was a big mate of yours at the time.
17 A. Yes, he would have been back then.
18 Q. Did he remain a mate of yours for a while afterwards?
19 A. I'm not sure. Maybe a year or two.
20 Q. Can you remember at all how long he was with you that
21 night? Was he with you at all times?
22 A. He was certainly there at the start of the night, but
23 when we got up to Herron's, I'm not sure what
24 happened -- what he done.
25 Q. You see, you and he both lived back the other direction.
110
1 Isn't that correct?
2 A. Yes. I may have walked home with him. I am not sure.
3 Q. He told the police at the time when he answered his
4 questionnaire that he had seen a fellow being chased by
5 the police wearing a Rangers scarf and being caught by
6 the police. He saw that. You didn't -- can you help
7 us? Were you with him at that time?
8 A. I'm not sure if he seen that -- well, he must have seen
9 it if he said it, but I didn't certainly see it.
10 Whether if he went on up the town or not, I don't
11 know, but I certainly didn't see anything like that.
12 Q. Are you sure about that? Because this was -- the
13 incident with the fellow with the Rangers scarf is right
14 at the height of this trouble, right in the middle of
15 it --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- so there was a lot of fighting going on. There was
18 a man lying on the ground possibly still at this stage
19 being kicked, police running about. There was quite
20 a scene of mayhem.
21 You didn't observe any of this?
22 A. No, not from where I was at Herron's, or Country Fried
23 Chicken. [name redacted] may have went up the town, but
24 I didn't.
25 Q. You can't remember?
111
1 A. No.
2 Q. Is it the case that you are just not telling us?
3 A. No, not at all. I can't tell you something that
4 I didn't see.
5 Q. Well, you were interviewed by this Inquiry around about
6 April of 2006. Isn't that correct?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. When you were contacted by the Inquiry, was it by letter
9 or by telephone?
10 A. Letter it would have been.
11 Q. What did you do when you got the letter?
12 A. I don't follow. What do you mean?
13 Q. Did you just ring up the Inquiry and make
14 an appointment?
15 A. I'm not sure, to be honest.
16 Q. Did you seek legal representation?
17 A. Yes, I did, yes.
18 Q. You did. You have just remembered that, have you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why did you think you needed legal representation?
21 A. Just because I was there and it's for free.
22 Q. But if you were there and you really saw nothing, which
23 is what you are telling us, why do you need legal
24 representation?
25 A. Why not? Because it is there and it is for free.
112
1 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the legal representation going to
2 achieve for you?
3 A. Nothing really. I was just making sure that I get my
4 letters and stuff like that.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I ought to say for the sake of
6 fairness that when witnesses were contacted the letter
7 contained in it an undertaking given by the Minister
8 when he set the Inquiry up to the effect that all
9 witnesses would be provided with public funding for
10 legal advice for the purposes of giving their statement,
11 whatever the wisdom of that might have been. Because
12 that was reflected in the letters, it perhaps ought not
13 to be held against witnesses that they took up the
14 offer.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.
16 MR McGRORY: I suppose in the best traditions of the
17 citizens of this part of the island of Ireland, if in
18 doubt, consult a solicitor. Was that your view at the
19 time?
20 A. I am not sure.
21 Q. It wouldn't be that --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You are not complaining about that,
23 Mr McGrory?
24 MR McGRORY: Or in Portadown, if in doubt, consult
25 Richard Monteith.
113
1 It wouldn't be at all that there was a lot of
2 discussion going on at the time in Portadown,
3 particularly amongst people of your generation, that
4 this Inquiry was now in town, so to speak?
5 A. Not really, no. I have lived in England for a lot of
6 the time and I haven't been living back here.
7 Q. Well, in 2006, were you in Portadown?
8 A. No, I lived in England.
9 Q. Oh, you were in England?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Right. So did the Inquiry find you in England?
12 MR UNDERWOOD: This is a matter which it is agreed will not
13 be gone into publicly. There is no sinister answer to
14 it. It is just a matter best not dealt with.
15 MR McGRORY: Perhaps I will take the matter no further.
16 One final thing. Did you sign your statement?
17 A. No, I haven't signed it.
18 Q. Did anybody ask you to sign it?
19 A. No, nobody has asked me.
20 Q. Have you seen it?
21 A. The statement I gave to the Inquiry last year?
22 Q. Yes. Well, a statement was formed out of the interview
23 you gave to the Inquiry back in 2006.
24 A. Right. Okay.
25 Q. At some point, it was sent out to you.
114
1 A. Right. Okay.
2 Q. That may have been via Mr Monteith?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. But was it ever sent to you?
5 A. I got it -- got my first look at it at the start of the
6 week.
7 Q. At the start of the week. Were you asked to sign it?
8 A. No, I have never been asked to sign it, no.
9 Q. Nobody suggested this was something the Inquiry might
10 have wanted you to sign?
11 A. Well, the advice of the solicitor said not to sign it,
12 but I have no issue with signing it. It doesn't bother
13 me.
14 MR McGRORY: Right. Okay. Thank you.
15 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
16 MR McCOMB: No questions.
17 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing from me. Thank you.
18 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me one moment. Just have a look, will
20 you, please, at the map of Portadown there?
21 You were going to come down the street we see on the
22 left and then round past Herron's Country Fried Chicken
23 and then off home. Is that it?
24 A. No. Originally I was -- I would have headed off in
25 another direction. Because of the ambulance, etc,
115
1 I went off for a look, and that was it, and then headed
2 home.
3 Q. You went for a look?
4 A. Yes, just out of curiosity, being young.
5 Q. How far did you go to have a look?
6 A. I didn't go past point A, Herron's or Country Fried
7 Chicken.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing else arising. Thank you.
10 Thank you, Mr Bloomer.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, those are the witnesses we have for
14 today. We have Mr Woods and Mr Bridgett tomorrow.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30 am then tomorrow.
16 (3.07 pm)
17 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)
18
19 --ooOoo--
20
21
22
23
24
25
116
1 I N D E X
2
3
MS JUDITH MARGARET HOLLAND (sworn) ............... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR McKENNA ........... 10
5 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 35
Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD. ........... 36
6
MR ANDREW PETER OSBORNE (sworn) .................. 37
7 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 37
Cross-examination by MR McKENNA ........... 44
8
MR IAIN CARVILLE (sworn) ......................... 49
9 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 49
Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 57
10 Cross-examination by MR McKENNA ........... 61
11 MS NOELLE MOORE (sworn) .......................... 67
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 67
12 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 81
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 83
13 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 99
14 MR MATTHEW JOHN BLOOMER (sworn) .................. 99
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 99
15 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 107
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 115
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19
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21
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23
24
25
117
