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Hearing: 17th February 2009, day 17
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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF
ROBERT HAMILL
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Held at:
Interpoint
20-24 York Street
Belfast
on Tuesday, 17th February 2009
commencing at 10.30 am
Day 17
1 Tuesday, 17th February 2009
2 (10.30 am)
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. I will call
4 Pauline Newell, please.
5 MRS PAULINE ROGERS (sworn)
6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. My name is Underwood. I am
8 Counsel to the Inquiry. I will be asking questions in
9 the first place.
10 Can I ask you your full name, first of all?
11 A. Mrs Pauline Rogers, formerly Newell.
12 Q. We know you as Pauline Newell. Forgive me if I call you
13 that from time to time.
14 A. It is fine.
15 Q. Can we have a look, please, on screen at page [81043]?
16 I am going to get this just scrolled through fairly
17 quickly and get you to have a look at the pages as they
18 come up.
19 Is this a witness statement you signed for us on
20 28th November last year?
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it this morning?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it true?
25 A. Yes, it is true.
1
1 Q. Thank you. Before we get into any detail at all about
2 what happened on the night of 27th April, can I just
3 tell you what we are interested in?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That is that principally the question you are concerned
6 with in this Inquiry is whether police got out of the
7 Land Rover in time to stop an attack or to help
8 Mr Hamill as quickly as they might have done or whether
9 they did it at all.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. What we are attempting to do is trying to get, all this
12 time, people to tell us what they might have seen at the
13 time that will help the Panel understand how the
14 fighting broke out, what the police did, if anything,
15 and what the police might have seen if they got out.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So we are trying to reconstruct as best we can from the
18 memories.
19 The first thing I need to ask you is: what sort of
20 memory do you have of the night of 27th April?
21 A. Very, very little now. I have been very ill for a long
22 time now and memories going back that far are very --
23 only from reading through the statement, some of it
24 sounds familiar, but not very much.
25 Q. All right. What I am going to do is get you to look at
2
1 a map and a model --
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. -- and get you to look back at a statement you made and
4 a couple of other documents and to try to jog your
5 memory as best I can.
6 If you can't remember something or you think you
7 might be trying to make it up to help us, do let us
8 know. Okay?
9 A. All right.
10 Q. Can we have a look, first of all, at the standard map?
11 What we have here is a map you may never have seen
12 before that you can see has West Street, Market Street,
13 High Street on it. If you look at that collection of
14 streets that ends up in the High Street, going up
15 towards the right-hand corner you will see a group of
16 letters in circles A, B, C. A is Herron's. C is
17 Boss Hogg's.
18 Now, can you tell us, having looked at that, what
19 your route would have been on the night?
20 A. The bus from the Coach nightclub would have stopped just
21 literally outside A where the barriers would have been
22 closed. I personally walked on to C, where I acquired
23 some food for the trip home.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I then crossed the road on to -- if you are looking up
3
1 that street from A, it would be on the right-hand side
2 and I slowly walked up towards West Street towards my
3 sister's house, passing St Mark's Church.
4 Q. Can you help us? Obviously you crossed over from C to
5 the other side of the street.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember whether you crossed straight across or
8 whether you would have wandered further up the
9 High Street before you would have crossed?
10 A. I am not 100% sure, but I may have walked straight past
11 or stayed on the same road for a little bit and crossed
12 over, because I do recall walking past Woodhouse Street.
13 Q. If we now have a look at a model, which is a standard
14 night model we have, what has happened is we have
15 constructed a 3D model from a number of photographs. If
16 we pan right round 360 degrees, you can see how this
17 takes us. This is the top of Thomas Street and we are
18 now beginning to swivel round to look down
19 Thomas Street. As we keep going past Eastwoods, you
20 begin to see down towards the church there and
21 West Street on the right, and then continuing round
22 opposite, if we stop there, we see a Land Rover parked
23 more or less in the mouth of Woodhouse Street.
24 The first thing on this I would like to ask is
25 whether you have any recollection of the Land Rover
4
1 being anywhere round there.
2 A. I do remember seeing the Land Rover, yes.
3 Q. Can you help us with how accurate that positioning is?
4 A. I do believe, looking at it, the Land Rover should be
5 actually not at the side. It should be sort of -- the
6 back end of it should be down Woodhouse Street a little
7 bit, as if it was ready to drive out.
8 Q. I see. So more backed in than fronted in?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, if we can have a look at page [09128], this is
11 a statement which you made on 20th May 1997. Do you
12 recall making it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did the process go by which this statement was taken
15 from you?
16 A. Could you explain a little bit more what you want?
17 Sorry.
18 Q. Did you go to the police station or did the police come
19 to you?
20 A. No, the police came to my mother's house, I think.
21 Q. We see it was taken by a Mr Eric Williamson. Was it
22 just one police officer who came to your house?
23 A. I can't honestly say, but there may have been two.
24 Q. Okay. Did they interview you and write down what you
25 were saying, or did they interview you first and then
5
1 write a statement, or what, if you can remember?
2 A. I can't really remember. I am sorry.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether it was a short meeting or
4 whether it dragged on?
5 A. I think it was quite short. It wasn't a long period of
6 time.
7 Q. How vivid was your recollection at that point?
8 A. Obviously, with drinking a lot that night I remembered
9 little bits and pieces, but not every detail of the
10 night in question.
11 Q. Okay. Right. If we can just have a run through it and
12 see the degree to which you can remember parts of it --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- and to see whether we can, with luck, expand any
15 parts of it.
16 You tell us in the first couple of lines that you
17 had gone to the Coach disco in Banbridge with
18 Tracy McAlpine and Kelly Lavery. Do you recall that
19 grouping?
20 A. Yes. That's my sister and that would have been my best
21 friend at the time.
22 Q. If we jump down about half a dozen lines, there is
23 a paragraph that starts:
24 "Tracy, Kelly and I walked up the town ..."
25 If we can highlight from there.
6
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. As you have already told us, you stopped at Boss Hogg's,
3 because you wanted to get some food. Then you say:
4 "While Tracy and Kelly walked on, I was going in
5 through the door of Boss Hogg's. I looked up the street
6 towards the church and saw Rory Robinson, Davy Woods and
7 a fellow I know as Fonzy walking up the street towards
8 Thomas Street."
9 Can you recall that now?
10 A. Now, I can vaguely remember seeing a couple of people,
11 but, honestly, right at this moment in time I couldn't
12 put my hand on heart and say that I remember definitely
13 those three people.
14 Q. Perhaps you could help us with the general impression
15 here. Obviously there was a busload of people that had
16 come up. Some were stopping for food. No doubt some
17 were stopping to chat. It looks like those three stood
18 out in your mind at the time.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that because they were the only group going up ahead
21 of you, do you think?
22 A. It probably was, yes, for me to name them, they were
23 probably the only three people I seen walking up.
24 Q. I know you have been asked in interview by the Inquiry
25 whether "Fonzy" was Andrew Allen, and I think you said
7
1 you can't recall. Is that fair?
2 A. No. In those days -- I am sure you understand -- lots
3 of people have nicknames and you will know them by
4 nickname only. You don't know the ins and outs.
5 Q. Right. You go on: you got your food, you came out
6 intending to catch Tracy and Kelly up. You say there
7 were quite a few standing around in the general area of
8 Boss Hogg's and Wellworths.
9 Can you give us any sort of impression of numbers
10 when you say "quite a few" there, what you might have
11 meant by that?
12 A. I couldn't honestly say. Probably just a group of
13 people.
14 Q. Okay. Then you tell us that you crossed over the street
15 and walked up towards the church and you saw the
16 Land Rover.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you say:
19 "As I crossed the Woodhouse Street junction, I glanced
20 down it and saw an elderly man on his own walking in the
21 direction of the Tunnel."
22 12 years on, your idea of an elderly man may have
23 changed. Can you give us any sort of idea what, back
24 then, might have commended itself as an elderly man?
25 A. As far as I can remember, he was very hunched over and
8
1 I recall him having a walking stick. So that would have
2 made me think, "Oh, he is an elderly man".
3 Q. He was definitely walking away, was he, from the
4 junction?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it going to help if I ask you whether you can
7 remember what he was wearing?
8 A. I have no idea. Sorry.
9 Q. All right. Then, going over the page, [09129]:
10 "I also saw Dean Forbes and Stacey [Bridgett] at the
11 police Land Rover."
12 If we highlight all of that page:
13 "They were standing at the front passenger door of
14 the Land Rover, which was open, apparently talking to
15 the police inside it."
16 You have told us in your recollection that the
17 Land Rover was more backed in than front in. Which side
18 of it did you pass? Did you pass on the street side or
19 the Woodhouse Street side?
20 A. I was on the Woodhouse Street side walking up so --
21 Q. So -- I am so sorry.
22 Did you pass on the passenger door side of it?
23 A. I would have been more passing in front of the ...
24 Q. Right. You go on to say that, as you passed it, you
25 heard bickering from the other side of the street, like
9
1 talking but louder.
2 If I just show you a document that came about a bit
3 later at [70986(A)] this is something called a QPG. You
4 will not have seen it in this form when it was done.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Some time around 2000 -- we are not quite sure when --
7 police interviewed a number of people whom they thought
8 might have been at Tracy McAlpine's house after this.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. They called the questionnaires they completed QPGs.
11 They had standard form questions here. They then wrote
12 the answers in when they interviewed people. They were
13 then typed up. This is your version typed up.
14 What it has you saying in the text there, if you
15 look about halfway down:
16 "Q2A). Were you in the vicinity of the scene of the
17 incident?"
18 The answer attributed to you is:
19 "In town I heard shouting, but didn't see any
20 fight."
21 Taking those two documents together where you said
22 in the statement bickering, like talking but louder, and
23 you have said a couple of years or so later it was
24 shouting, can you recall now what sort of volume it was
25 and what sort of atmosphere there was?
10
1 A. I can't really recall, but shouting, bickering to me is
2 sort of the same thing, but now I couldn't possibly sit
3 here and, you know, tell you which one it was from my
4 recollection.
5 Q. I am sorry. I didn't mean to talk over you.
6 A. It is all right.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember whether this sounded
8 cheerful like, for example, a football club or
9 disagreeable.
10 A. Probably disagreeable.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Worrying?
12 A. Not so much worrying, I don't think, because obviously
13 if it would have been worrying, I probably would have
14 said in my statement that it worried me, but for me not
15 to mention that at all, I was probably quite happy just
16 to hear it and walk on.
17 Q. Okay. But it caught your attention?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If we go back to [09129], you tell us about five or six
20 lines down after the "talking but louder", you say:
21 "As I passed the hoarding where they're renovating
22 an old restaurant (the Manella) [you] met P51", it says
23 there. It is Andrew Hill, there's no secret about that,
24 "and Lisa Hobson."
25 Can you help us with where the Manella was? If you
11
1 can't, fair enough.
2 A. Not now. I have been away from Portadown for nearly
3 eight years now. I couldn't possibly.
4 Q. You then tell us they were stopped in the middle of the
5 road. You said, "Hello", and walked on. You saw others
6 standing in front of the church. You waved over at
7 them:
8 "Around the McGowan Buildings in West Street I met
9 up with Tracy and Kelly again. We walked on home ...
10 together. There were both people in front and behind
11 us ..."
12 Now, it is entirely possible that you were there
13 right as the fight was just about to start.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. We don't yet have all the evidence in, so we don't know
16 how this violence broke out, but if the bickering was
17 what led to the fight, then what you saw is naturally
18 very important.
19 Can I take you to what Tracey Clarke said about
20 this? We have her statement in a number of forms. If
21 we look at page [00262] to start with, and take the
22 second half of the page, halfway down that on the
23 right-hand side there is a passage which starts:
24 "Pauline Newell went into Boss Hogg's and got chips
25 and we waited for her. We walked up as far as the
12
1 Mandarin House in West Street. I think at that stage
2 the other persons with me were Pauline Newell,
3 Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery, Shelley Liggett and
4 a fellow called Jason."
5 That will be Jason McClure -- sorry -- Jason Woods:
6 "I would say that it was about 1.45 am approx when
7 we were in West Street, as the bus got in at about
8 1.30 am. Around this time, we heard shouting coming
9 from the Main Street. I can't remember what was said
10 but it was something like 'Fight, fight'. We all ran
11 down to see what was happening. When we got as far as
12 the church, I could see a crowd at the junction of
13 Thomas Street/Market Street."
14 I will not take you through it, but she goes on to
15 describe in great detail in that statement the fight and
16 who was involved.
17 What she says can be broken into two blocks, if you
18 like. The first is that she is up there by the church,
19 or by the Mandarin, with you and the other people that
20 you have described being with, that shouting is heard
21 together with perhaps, "Fight, fight", and she says that
22 all of you then run back to watch the fight.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Can I take the first block of that to start with? Do
25 you recall being with her?
13
1 A. No, because me and Tracy had a falling out at one stage,
2 petty girl stuff. I am not totally aware now over what
3 it was. So I can't recall seeing Tracy up that far with
4 us.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say you had a falling out, was this
6 before this day or after?
7 A. This was before this day.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Is it possible that she was around where you
9 were?
10 A. As I say, it could be possible, but I don't recall
11 seeing her with us in our company at that point.
12 Q. Let's test another part of that first block, where she
13 says that while she and the group you were in were up by
14 the church, shouting could be heard and perhaps with the
15 words "Fight, fight".
16 Can you tell us whether you have any recollection of
17 whether you continued to hear bickering or whether it
18 stopped and started or whether you forgot all about it
19 once you walked past the Land Rover?
20 A. As far as I am aware, after hearing it the first time,
21 that was it. I don't recall, as far as I am aware now,
22 hearing anything more on the way home.
23 Q. I want to ask you about the sequence of events.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Can I just jump ahead for a bit?
14
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I think what you have told us in interview is that you
3 didn't learn anything about the fact there had been
4 a fight until some time afterwards?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So it came as a surprise, did it, to learn there had
7 been an outbreak of violence?
8 A. Yes and no, because Portadown Street, especially
9 Woodhouse Street, is known as a flash point. So it was
10 a surprise that I could have been in the middle of it,
11 but at the same time that it happened, because it seemed
12 very subdued really. Maybe that was the alcohol back
13 then, but it didn't seem very -- I don't know -- like
14 the mood for a fight or anything. I didn't get those
15 vibes that there was something going on.
16 Q. Right. Then to go back to the sequence then, you went
17 back to your sister's house, I think?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. If we go back to page [09129], we see in the last third
20 of it that you slept and woke up some time around
21 5.00 am. You got up to get a drink and came downstairs
22 to get one. You saw a number of people in the living
23 room, including Allister Hanvey.
24 Do you recollect that now?
25 A. I can possibly remember -- vividly remember seeing
15
1 Allister Hanvey, but the rest of them, at the minute
2 I can't say that I remember it now.
3 Q. The Inquiry has a particular interest in what jacket he
4 was wearing on the evening.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Do you have any recollection of what he was wearing when
7 you saw him?
8 A. Sorry. I don't have any recollection of what anyone was
9 really wearing that evening.
10 Q. All right. Then over at page [09130] you tell us that
11 you learned from the news about the fight the next day:
12 "I have since heard in general rumour around the
13 town that the fight was started by the ones coming down
14 Thomas Street. They hit wee Davy Woods and then others
15 joined in to come to his rescue."
16 On that topic, can I get you to look at [50182]?
17 Perhaps we can highlight the text. Sorry. It is not
18 a very good copy. It is some information that came into
19 the hands of the police. I know it has been put to you
20 in general terms, but let's just go through it:
21 "Information reference murder of Hamill at
22 Portadown:- source obtained information from a female
23 who was present during the fight She is called
24 [Pauline] and lives at Brownstown and is currently
25 wanted for questioning by Portadown CID."
16
1 "Wanted for questioning" sounds very sinister, but
2 it doesn't mean you were in trouble:
3 "She says Hamill and 1 male and 2 female friends
4 were walking from Thomas Street to Woodhouse Street. As
5 they crossed Main Street, Hamill went over to
6 a Protestant crowd of approximately 30 and called one
7 a 'black bastard'. Then he hit this person ..."
8 There is an asterisk there. If we trace it further
9 down the page, it says:
10 "... named as Rory Robinson, 23-24 years, dark brown
11 hair in curtain style ..."
12 Then go back up to where the asterisk is:
13 "... who retaliated. The others joined in and
14 Hamill and his male friend were both beaten."
15 Then if we jump down over that asterisk part again:
16 "Many of the Protestant crowd were in Boss Hogg's
17 just prior to the incident. They should be on video
18 according to source. Pauline works in fruit shop in
19 McGowan Buildings."
20 Now, you did work in a fruit shop in
21 McGowan Buildings?
22 A. I did, yes.
23 Q. Did you live in Brownstown?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We know you had seen the group of three people,
17
1 according to your statement, walking up the street
2 earlier on. What I want to know is: is this a recital
3 of what you told somebody?
4 A. Not that I am aware of, no. I can't remember telling
5 anyone this.
6 Q. Is this the sort of thing that was passing round as
7 rumour?
8 A. Quite honestly, now I couldn't relate back to it and
9 tell you this was a rumour going round, because I can't
10 recall.
11 Q. Okay. This report is dated 10th May. The significance
12 of this is on 8th May Robert Hamill died.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. On 10th May there were a number of arrests. Also, by
15 10th May, police had witness statements from
16 Tracey Clarke and from Timothy Jameson.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Both of whose statements had named a number of people
19 and given a version of events. Davy Woods had also been
20 arrested. He had, as you have said in your police
21 statement, been involved in violence at the top end of
22 Thomas Street.
23 Now, was there talk around that time in Portadown
24 amongst your group of friends about all of that?
25 A. Not that I am aware of. I can't honestly recall it.
18
1 I would only be telling you, "Yes, I can recall that",
2 just because I am sitting here, but, if I am honest,
3 I can't.
4 Q. Okay. Obviously we don't know who the informant we are
5 dealing with in this report is, so we can't test any of
6 this.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. It may have been made up. We just don't know. But you
9 are clear, are you, that you simply can't recall saying
10 anything like this to anyone?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If you had done, would it have been through rumour or
13 would it have been through somebody telling you directly
14 that they admitted something or what?
15 A. No. It probably would have been through rumour,
16 because, in honesty, I don't think I was -- I didn't
17 think I could be friends with anyone that would have
18 been there involved in anything like this.
19 Q. All right. Those are the only matters I want to ask you
20 about --
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. -- unless there is anything you can think of that you
23 think might be able to help us.
24 A. Maybe if this was at the time back then, no, but at
25 the minute, as I say, my recollection of the whole
19
1 incident is very, very slight, if any at all.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much for that. Other people
3 may have some more questions for you.
4 A. That's fine.
5 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
6 MR ADAIR: No questions.
7 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
8 MR McGRORY: One minor matter, sir, if you don't mind.
9 Mrs Rogers, I am going to ask you a couple of
10 questions on behalf of the Hamill family.
11 A. That's fine.
12 Q. Only one matter really arising from your statement of
13 20th May 1997 which you have not touched upon, and
14 that's in terms of events back at the house later on.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. You said you were very friendly with Kelly Lavery at the
17 time.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you still friendly with her?
20 A. Well, I live in England now. When I come home, we say
21 "Hello", and, "How are you", but not as friendly as we
22 were back then.
23 Q. It is just you recount in the statement -- it is at
24 page [09129] in case you need to refresh your memory --
25 at the very bottom of the page, the last four or five
20
1 lines, just after you say -- after Allister Hanvey
2 perhaps, the last four or five lines, after you say who
3 else was in the house at 5.00 am when you got up to get
4 a drink of water, do you vaguely remember getting up for
5 a drink of water? Is that what you are saying?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say you don't know what time everybody else left,
8 but Kelly said in the morning that she had thrown them
9 out for painting her face with make-up.
10 Do you remember her saying that now?
11 A. Not now, no.
12 Q. But obviously it was something that she told you at the
13 time, otherwise you would not have volunteered that to
14 the police.
15 A. No. Obviously she had spoken to me about it, that she
16 had had her face painted.
17 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.
18 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?
20 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
21 MR McCOMB: Just one matter.
22 May we have Mrs Rogers' statement to the Inquiry
23 scrolled up, please? If we go to [81049], please, it is
24 paragraph 29 of a statement which -- do you remember
25 making a statement to the Inquiry in relation to this?
21
1 A. I do vaguely, yes.
2 Q. That's a statement which you looked at a little bit
3 earlier and confirmed was yours?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There is just one small matter at the bottom of
6 paragraph 29. If you look there, you say:
7 "On the second occasion I told the police that I had
8 made my statement and everything I knew was in my
9 statement. I thought that they wanted me to remember
10 things that I had not seen; I could not tell them
11 anything else."
12 Can you amplify on that? Why did you say that?
13 A. I can't be 100% sure now, but I think I recall them
14 just -- they just kept wanting me to say something that
15 I didn't, kept pushing me to remember things that
16 I hadn't seen or heard.
17 Q. Indeed. If you can't remember now, please just say so.
18 A. Yes. It is very hard now, so ...
19 Q. Was it events, or people or a mixture of both that you
20 think ...
21 A. I can't be 100% sure, but I would probably think it
22 would have been both events and people.
23 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
24 MR ADAIR: Sir, there is one matter just arising out of that
25 last, if I may.
22
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
2 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
3 MR ADAIR: Do I understand from what you are saying,
4 Mrs Rogers, that the police were trying to get as much
5 information from you as they could about what you had
6 seen or what people you had seen?
7 A. Yes. I believe that they were -- I had told them
8 everything that I had seen or the people I had seen, but
9 I just -- if I can recall a little bit, I think they
10 just wanted me to say things that I hadn't. They just
11 kept pushing for more information that I didn't have.
12 Q. Kept pushing you to see if you had any more information
13 in your mind that could help with the inquiry?
14 A. Yes, maybe, but I just felt a bit that they wanted me to
15 say things that I hadn't seen.
16 MR ADAIR: Okay. Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help me about the nature of that
18 pushing? Were they suggesting things to you that you
19 had seen or simply trying, "Can you remember a bit
20 more?" and so on?
21 A. I wish I could remember more at the moment, but I can't
22 possibly tell you what exactly they were -- I just
23 remember feeling they wanted me to say things I had not
24 seen, but now I can't honestly say to you, "Yes, they
25 were pushing me and putting words in my mouth", because
23
1 I can't recall in specific.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much.
3 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter out of that. We know, of
5 course, that you were seen by the police on
6 20th May 1997, when you gave that statement. We also
7 know that you were seen again, whenever it was, around
8 2000, when this QPG that we have looked at was
9 administered to you.
10 Were those the only two occasions you were seen by
11 police or are you talking about another occasion there
12 in your statement?
13 A. As I believe, I think they were the only two times.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much for coming, Mrs Rogers.
17 A. Thank you.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Tracy McAlpine, please.
20 MS TRACY McALPINE (affirmed)
21 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry and
25 I will be asking some questions.
24
1 Can you tell us your full names, please?
2 A. Tracy McAlpine.
3 Q. Is that Mrs McAlpine or Miss or Ms?
4 A. Ms, divorced.
5 Q. Ms it is.
6 Can we have a look, please, at page [80771] on the
7 screen? I want you to just have a look at these pages
8 as we scroll through them, if you would, briefly.
9 Is this a witness statement that you have signed for
10 the Inquiry?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you had a chance to look over it recently?
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. Was it true, to your recollection, when you signed it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you want to have a chance to look at it
17 again now? You are very welcome to, if you like.
18 A. Yes, please.
19 Q. Let's go back to the first page.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: How would you like to do this? Do you want
21 it to be done here, or do you want to go out for
22 a few minutes and read it to yourself?
23 A. No, it is okay. Thank you.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Just shout out when you want to turn the
25 page over.
25
1 A. That's okay. You can turn the page, please. That's
2 okay. Yes, that's all right. Yes, that's okay. Yes,
3 that's okay.
4 Q. Can you help us with how good your memory is about the
5 events of 27th April 1997?
6 A. I can hardly remember what I done last week, never mind
7 10 years ago or 11 or whatever.
8 Q. Let's just see what we can do with the aid of some maps
9 and things. Can we just, first of all, go back to
10 page [80771]?
11 If we just look at paragraph 3, you say there:
12 "In April 1997 I was good friends with
13 Tracey Clarke, although I would say she was more my
14 sister's friend than mine."
15 Can you help us with whether, on the night of
16 27th April, you were with her or either of you were with
17 her?
18 A. I might have been at the Coach, but I can't recall
19 whether I walked up the town with her or not. I am not
20 100% sure, because I was that drunk, you see.
21 Q. All right. Were you all friends at that time?
22 A. Well, she was more my sister's friend than mine, but
23 I would have passed myself with her.
24 Q. Can you remember whether they had a falling out about
25 this time?
26
1 A. I am not sure.
2 Q. Okay. Let me show you a map, first, to help jog your
3 memory, if I can. If you have a look at this, you can
4 see that the main road that runs more or less from the
5 bottom left up to the top right --
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. -- is the High Street/Market Street. There is
8 a cluster -- if we look at the top right -- of circles
9 with letters in, A, B, C. 'A' is Herron's Country Fried
10 Chicken. 'C' is Boss Hogg's.
11 A. I can't really see it very well. My eyesight is not
12 great.
13 Q. I think we can probably zoom in on it. How is that?
14 A. I can see it better now. Thank you.
15 Q. Do you see that where B is there are some barriers?
16 Then you can see, still on this, there is a sort of
17 square marked up in the middle of the town where the
18 junction is where Market Street, High Street,
19 Woodhouse Street and Thomas Street all join up.
20 Does this make sense to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, you got off the bus from the Coach Inn, as we
23 understand it around A, around where the barriers were.
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
27
1 Q. We know that your sister dropped off for some food at
2 Boss Hogg's --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- but you and Kelly Lavery walked on, I think. Is that
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Which side of the street were you on?
8 A. On the same side as where the barrier is walking down.
9 Q. So you would have passed Woodhouse Street?
10 A. No, I wasn't over on that side. I was the same side as
11 Boss Hogg's.
12 Q. Do you remember how far you had got before Pauline
13 joined up with you again?
14 A. It would have been near to the church.
15 Q. Now, if we have a look at what we have as a model,
16 a night-time model, let me just explain what's going on
17 here.
18 We have got together some photographs taken at the
19 time --
20 A. Right.
21 Q. -- and constructed this. You will see in a moment we
22 can actually swing round through 360 degrees. This is
23 taken from outside Eastwoods. So if we swing round to
24 the right, you will see this shows down the town towards
25 where you came from. There is Number 7 Bakery. This is
28
1 looking down Thomas Street. You see Jamesons there.
2 You can see we are outside Eastwoods. Then you will see
3 we are looking up towards West Street and the church.
4 Then, swinging up past Instep, there is the junction of
5 Woodhouse Street.
6 If we just pause it around there, you will see we
7 have put a Land Rover there.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What we are doing is asking witnesses whether they can
10 recall whether there was a Land Rover, for a start, and,
11 if so, is that an accurate position to put it in?
12 A. I don't recall seeing the Land Rover.
13 Q. When you passed this area, would you have been over the
14 Woodhouse Street side of the road?
15 A. No, I was on the other side.
16 Q. Even though you were going to go down West Street?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. You would have to cross over at some point?
19 A. I would have had to cross over at the traffic lights,
20 over that wee bit.
21 Q. Up by the church?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Okay. We have heard that this is a flash point,
24 a trouble area for fights, perhaps sectarian fights, at
25 that time in 1997. Did you know about that?
29
1 A. I know it could be, yes, at weekends.
2 Q. Did you have any worries about walking up there?
3 A. Well, I had company with me, so I wasn't as bad.
4 Q. Do you remember how many other people were around the
5 place? Was it busy?
6 A. It was just the normal crowds that you see going up the
7 town, you know, on a Saturday night.
8 Q. If there had been any hostility, any shouting, any
9 violence, do you think you would have noticed it?
10 A. I wouldn't have stayed round to see what was going on.
11 Q. Let's imagine, if you were walking up there and you were
12 passing the top of Thomas Street, if there had been
13 shouting going on, people swearing at each other, would
14 that have drawn your attention do you think?
15 A. I would have walked on and minded my own business,
16 because I wouldn't have wanted to get involved in
17 anything.
18 Q. If we can look at page [09616], this is a witness
19 statement which you made on 14th May 1997. You made it
20 to a Mr Williamson, who took a statement about six days
21 later from your sister.
22 Now, can you remember how it came about that you
23 made this statement?
24 A. What do you mean?
25 Q. Did the police come to you or did you go to the police
30
1 station?
2 A. Yes, they came to me.
3 Q. Was this a surprise?
4 A. Yes, it was a surprise.
5 Q. What did they want to know?
6 A. They just wanted to know what I was doing, what did I do
7 getting off the bus from the Coach and who was with me.
8 Q. Uh-huh. What was your reaction to that?
9 A. I didn't really think a lot about it really.
10 Q. Were you happy to talk to them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. If we look a bit over halfway down here --
13 halfway down you say:
14 "I saw Tracey Clarke, [Steven Sinnamon] ..."
15 There is no secret about that. That is Andrew Hill [sic]:
16 "... Andrew Osborne and his girlfriend
17 Judith Holland, Vicky and her friend Jennifer too.
18 I had to waken Kelly up to get her off the bus ...
19 Pauline, Kelly and I walked up the town and Pauline
20 wanted to go into Boss Hogg's to get something to eat.
21 So she went in and me and Kelly walked slowly on.
22 I never took any notice of what was in the town.
23 I don't remember seeing any police."
24 That was the position, was it, even on 14th May,
25 that you --
31
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- were telling the police the truth about what you
3 could remember?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then you said:
6 "Somewhere before the church, Pauline caught up with
7 us. I do remember seeing Vicky Clayton standing near
8 the church."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember that now, seeing Vicky Clayton?
11 A. I briefly remember.
12 Q. Where was she?
13 A. She was somewhere up near the church. I don't remember
14 exactly where about.
15 Q. I am so sorry. I don't mean to talk over you.
16 You don't remember exactly where?
17 A. I don't know. I remember recalling seeing her face,
18 like, but I couldn't tell you exactly how far up towards
19 the church.
20 Q. Then if we go over the page [09617] from about five
21 lines down:
22 "I saw [Steven Sinnamon], Chris Henderson,
23 Iain Carville, Stephen Bloomer, 'Fonzy'."
24 Who is "Fonzy"? Do you know?
25 A. I don't recall. I only knew him by that nickname.
32
1 I don't recall what his proper name is. Sorry.
2 Q. "I think Dean Forbes came later on."
3 This is a gathering at your house, some friends
4 sitting round talking?
5 A. As far as I know, yes.
6 Q. I want to ask you here about Allister Hanvey. Did you
7 know him?
8 A. I briefly know Allister Hanvey from being with Tracey,
9 you know, with being my sister's friend.
10 Q. Pauline recalls him being there. Do you have any
11 recollection of that?
12 A. I can't remember. Sorry.
13 Q. All right.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say you briefly knew him, do you
15 mean you --
16 A. I didn't personally know him, you know. I just knew him
17 to see, not really to talk to.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: You know that the Inquiry are trying to find
20 out --
21 A. I know.
22 Q. -- what happened on the night, because its interest is
23 in learning whether the police got out of the
24 Land Rover, and, if they did, whether they got out
25 quickly enough to help Mr Hamill, who may have been
33
1 attacked by others, including Mr Hanvey. So any
2 evidence that the Inquiry can find of people who were
3 passing is important for them to pin down what happened
4 when.
5 A. I know.
6 Q. Doing the best you can, tell us how likely you think it
7 was that there was any trouble there while you were
8 walking through the town.
9 A. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I was that
10 drunk that night, and all -- I just minded my own
11 business and walked on.
12 Q. If you were walking up the road across the mouth of
13 Thomas Street, would you have seen if there was any
14 trouble at that stage? If there had been any fighting,
15 would you have seen it?
16 A. I don't know. I can't say.
17 Q. All right. Can I just ask you, finally, to look at
18 page [70984]. This is a document called a QPG. It is
19 a questionnaire that police were going around with in
20 around 2000, perhaps 2001. They were asking people who
21 were at your house whether they saw Mr Hanvey there and,
22 if they did, what they saw him wearing. It was
23 a standard form questionnaire. It had blanks for the
24 answers and the police filled those blanks in when they
25 interviewed people and they typed it up. This is your
34
1 version typed up. It has a lot of questions, which go
2 over three pages. Against each question it has the word
3 "refused" in, which I take to mean refused to answer.
4 Now, do you remember this?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you refuse to answer any questions?
7 A. Yes. I wasn't going to say something if I didn't know
8 whether it happened or not. You know, they were trying
9 to put the words in my mouth.
10 Q. Let's just have a look at some of these questions so you
11 can explain that to us a little more. If we look at the
12 first one:
13 "Can you outline your movements for the evening of
14 Saturday 26th, early hours of Sunday, 27th April 1997?
15 Who was in your company?"
16 That's a matter which you dealt with in your
17 statement of 14th May, because you very kindly set out
18 there where you had gone from and where you had gone to,
19 which you have just told us, and who you had seen and
20 who you were with.
21 Why did you refuse to answer that?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Tell us what you mean when you said earlier on that you
24 didn't want to put in things there that you thought they
25 were trying to make you say that you didn't remember.
35
1 A. What did I mean by that?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Well, they were trying to say I seen things when
4 I didn't see things.
5 Q. What kind of things were they trying to make you say?
6 A. They were trying to say, did I see the Land Rover, and
7 did I see what was going on, and I swore on my child's
8 life I didn't see what went on.
9 Q. But I just want to be clear about what you are telling
10 us, you see. Are you telling us that they were asking
11 you whether you saw things --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- or whether they were suggesting to you that you saw
14 things?
15 A. Well, they were suggesting that I saw things.
16 Q. The example you have just given us was seeing the
17 Land Rover.
18 A. Uh-huh, but if I don't recall seeing it, I can't say
19 I did see it, you know.
20 Q. I don't want to suggest things to you. If you didn't
21 see them, you didn't see them. What I am interested in
22 is what sort of things the police were suggesting to you
23 here.
24 Apart from suggesting to you that you have would
25 have seen the Land Rover, what sort of other things were
36
1 they suggesting?
2 A. Did I see the fight and stuff.
3 Q. Were they putting to you, were they suggesting to you
4 that you did see the fight?
5 A. They were asking me did I see the fight.
6 Q. Were they suggesting to you you saw individuals
7 involved?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we be clear about the difference between
10 saying, "You saw so and so, didn't you?" and, "Did you
11 see so and so?"
12 Do you see the difference between those two?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember which it was they were
15 saying to you?
16 A. They were asking me was I -- did I see them.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you.
19 Other people may have some more.
20 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON
21 MR FERGUSON: Just one matter.
22 In your statement to the Inquiry -- it is the last
23 page -- you refer to being present at the scene of
24 a fight that took place some time in the 1980s, [80775].
25 Can you remember being present at the scene of a fight
37
1 in the 1980s?
2 A. I don't even remember seeing that at the bottom.
3 Q. Yes, but --
4 A. I mustn't have half read it properly, to be honest.
5 Q. Yes. Why do you say that? Might you not have been
6 present at the scene of a fight in the 1980s?
7 A. Well, if I walked on up the town, I wasn't -- I went on
8 ahead home.
9 Q. But this is a different incident I am talking to you
10 about. 1980s, you say you were present there and you
11 say:
12 "On that occasion the police intervened to break up
13 the fight."
14 A. Are you talking about years ago?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Oh, yes. I have seen people fighting before, but not
17 with this.
18 Q. Leave that to one side for the moment. I am just asking
19 you about other incidents. You have seen other
20 incidents of fights in this area, have you?
21 A. In Portadown before?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Briefly, yes.
24 Q. Was it your experience, from what you saw of those
25 instances, that the police would step in to break up
38
1 a fight like that?
2 A. Sometimes the police, I don't think they were very good
3 at stepping in. They sort of let things get out of
4 control.
5 Q. But on this occasion, you refer to the fight in 1980s
6 and you say:
7 "I have never heard of police not stepping in to
8 break up a fight."
9 Is that right or wrong or is that something that has
10 been mistakenly put in your statement?
11 A. Mistakenly put in my statement.
12 Q. I see. You mean somebody put those words in your mouth?
13 Is that what you say? Might that be the truth?
14 A. It might be the truth.
15 MR FERGUSON: Thank you.
16 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
17 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir. A couple of matters I want to
18 ask you about.
19 Did you see a fight on this night in Portadown?
20 A. No, no, no.
21 Q. Did you hear anything being shouted by anybody on this
22 night in Portadown around
23 Thomas Street/Woodhouse Street?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When you say that things were suggested to you by the
39
1 police, and you were asked a number of times about this,
2 and the word "suggested", in fact, was said to you
3 a number of times about this, do I understand what the
4 police were doing was asking you a question, "Did you
5 see a Land Rover?", for example?
6 A. Yes, they did ask that.
7 Q. They would then ask you, "Did you see a fight?"
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. They would then ask you, "Did you see X, Y or Z?", just
10 various questions?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But these were in the form of, "Did you see"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's what you have told us on a number of occasions.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That's what you mean when you say the word "suggested".
17 Isn't that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
20 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
21 MR McGRORY: There is just one matter I wanted to raise with
22 this witness.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
24 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
25 MR McGRORY: I want to ask you a couple of questions on
40
1 behalf of the Hamill family.
2 You made your first statement on 14th May 1997. If
3 we could have up, please, [09617] on the screen and the
4 bottom half of that page from:
5 "Kelly later told me ..."
6 Thank you. Do you remember Kelly Lavery?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. She was a friend of Pauline Newell's. Isn't that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You would have known her as well?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know her now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You recounted to the police -- you will see just to
16 remind you:
17 "Kelly later told me she'd fallen asleep in the
18 living room and someone had painted her face with
19 make-up. She'd wakened and was angry about it and threw
20 whoever was left in the house out."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember her telling you that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember her being angry?
25 A. Yes.
41
1 MR McGRORY: That's all. Thank you.
2 MR McCOMB: No questions.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: There is nothing arising out of those
4 questions. Thank you.
5 Questions from THE CHAIRMAN
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you remember how old you were at this
7 time in April 1997?
8 A. I think I would have been about 23 maybe.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: 23. Thank you very much. Thank you. You
10 are free now to go.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 MR UNDERWOOD: We have one more witness this morning.
14 I have a feeling I am going to be asked for a comfort
15 break if I launch into this witness. Perhaps I can
16 suggest the break now?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Fine. A quarter of an hour.
18 (11.25 am)
19 (A short break)
20 (11.40 am)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Paul Currie, please.
22 MR PAUL CURRIE (affirmed)
23 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Sorry about the false start. Good morning.
25 My name is Underwood. I will be asking questions on
42
1 behalf of the Inquiry. Other people may ask some
2 questions after that.
3 Can I ask you your full names, please?
4 A. Paul Currie.
5 Q. We are trying to recall the events, as best we can, of
6 27th April 1997. What I want to do, if I can, is to get
7 you to look at a map and then a model we have put
8 together to see if I can get the best memory out of you
9 that I possibly can.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Look at this map on the screen. I don't know whether
12 you are familiar with this layout. We have here
13 West Street and Market Street joining up, forming
14 High Street --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- going up, and then towards the top right there are
17 some circles with A, B and C in?
18 A. Yes, I see them, yes.
19 Q. A is Herron's Country Fried Chicken, or at least it was.
20 C is Boss Hogg's, or at least it was. It is a sandwich
21 shop now, I think.
22 Can you help us with where you were on the night and
23 what route you would have taken along here?
24 A. Well, when I got off the bus round about, you know,
25 where A is, and then just straight up the town on the
43
1 West Street and up home into Brownstown where I live.
2 Q. Would you have been on the right-hand side of the road
3 as you walked up?
4 A. I would have been on the left-hand side, up past
5 Boss Hogg's, that way.
6 Q. And crossed over where?
7 A. I would usually have crossed over between Thomas Street
8 and Edward Street. I would have crossed there and then
9 up the other side of the street, up West Street and then
10 home.
11 Q. If we can look at the night-time model now, this is
12 something we have constructed from photographs taken at
13 the time --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- and the shop signs are as they were back then.
16 If we swivel this around and go round to the right,
17 you can see this does 360 degrees. There is
18 Number 7 Bakery. We are now looking down Thomas Street.
19 There is Jamesons, of course. This is Eastwoods. There
20 is the church. If we just stop it there for a minute,
21 you would have crossed round here somewhere, would you?
22 A. No, probably just before that there. I would have kind
23 of cut across between Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street
24 in a diagonal direction.
25 Q. Okay. If we keep going round then, if we stop it round
44
1 there, you would have crossed somewhere round there?
2 A. Yes, somewhere round there, yes.
3 Q. We have put a Land Rover there.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That's not to say it necessarily was there. Can you
6 help us with whether there was one, and, if there was,
7 was it there?
8 A. It would have been in -- Instep, the shoe place, there
9 is a wee lay-by there. It would have been sitting in
10 there.
11 Q. Can you remember that?
12 A. I think it usually sits round there. Any other night
13 you are coming back, it is usually sitting there.
14 Q. The trouble everybody is going to have, 12 years on --
15 A. Yes, if they were there, yes.
16 Q. -- is whether they were there or not.
17 We do know that at some point in the night there was
18 a Land Rover parked or sitting around Instep.
19 A. Yes, round about that direction, yes.
20 Q. One of the things the Inquiry is going to be very
21 interested in is exactly what stage things were going on
22 when witnesses walked up the town --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- because obviously some people walked up quite
25 quickly, others dawdled, came up later, and the
45
1 situation may have changed by the time they came up.
2 What would be very interesting for the Inquiry is
3 whether you can actually remember that night seeing the
4 Land Rover at Instep or whether you are just now
5 assuming you would have seen it there.
6 A. It was a long time ago, like, but I think it was in or
7 around that direction. It wasn't the top of
8 Woodhouse Street anyway, so it wasn't.
9 Q. You walked up with Shelley Liggett, I think. Is that
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell us what happened when you walked up. Can you
13 remember what you could see in terms of other people?
14 A. No. We got out of the bus. There was usually a crowd
15 of us, you know. We would just usually walk up
16 together, you know, just straight up through the town,
17 straight home, you know. There was nothing going on,
18 anything else about the town, like.
19 Q. Let's get into some detail on that. You had had a fair
20 amount to drink. Would that be fair?
21 A. Yes, right, but usually I can handle my drink.
22 I wouldn't say I was totally out of it, you know.
23 Q. Does anything stand out about this night?
24 A. No, not really, no. Just a normal Saturday night as far
25 as I was concerned, you know.
46
1 Q. Normally, as I say, groups of people would be coming up
2 at different speeds?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember, this night, apart from Shelley Liggett,
5 anybody else that you were with?
6 A. Well, there was a couple of the other young girls.
7 Pauline was there.
8 Q. Pauline Newell?
9 A. Pauline Newell at the time. Jason Woods was with me and
10 there was a couple of other, you know, hangers-on, but
11 I can't remember exactly who they were, you know.
12 Q. Were you aware it was an area where trouble broke out
13 from time to time?
14 A. It was like a flash point, yes.
15 Q. If there had been trouble that night, what would have
16 been your reaction to it? Would it have been something
17 you'd have wanted to look at or join in or get away
18 from, or what?
19 A. I would have tried to split it up the best that I could,
20 like, because, you know, usually that's what I'd do
21 I would usually hang about just to make sure, but I just
22 walked on this night, you know.
23 Q. You have no recollection of any trouble at all on the
24 actual night?
25 A. No, no.
47
1 Q. I want to show you a couple of statements that have been
2 made by other people. If we look at [09630], this is
3 a statement taken from Philip Curran on 1st June 1997.
4 Did you know him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He says, if we look at the text of this -- he said he
7 was at Buffs. Then he goes to West Street. So if we
8 get it about four lines down:
9 "We", that's him and David Gray, "decided to go to
10 West Street for a Chinese and, when we arrived there,
11 a young fellow called Paul Currie said there was a lot
12 of trouble down the town."
13 Then he describes what he did after that. They go
14 down the town and there is somebody lying on the ground.
15 Do you remember saying that to him?
16 A. Not really. I remember talking to him, but I don't know
17 the exact words that were said. I maybe said there was
18 trouble because, when we got up, you could hear the
19 sirens going. So I took it there was trouble. Usually
20 there is something knocking about with sirens going,
21 there's something happening, you know.
22 Q. Doing the best you can now, sirens, blue flashing
23 lights?
24 A. Some of the flashing lights, because, you know, I had my
25 back to them. You could hear the sirens, and then when
48
1 you looked back, you know.
2 Q. Help us as best you can where you were when you heard
3 these.
4 A. I would have been about Mandeville Street, just there at
5 the top of the town up through McGowan Buildings, round
6 about there.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give us the name of the street again?
8 A. Mandeville Street.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: We can go back and look at the map. Just
10 show us where that is. If we zoom in up on the
11 left-hand side and go left, Mandeville Street, we see,
12 runs between West Street and High Street.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where we see West Street and Mandeville Street joining
15 up just at the top of that there is McGowan House. Is
16 that where the McGowan Buildings were?
17 A. That's McGowan Buildings, yes, what we call
18 McGowan Buildings, yes.
19 Q. Right. So you were up that end somewhere, you hear the
20 sirens and bump into Mr Curran?
21 A. It was probably on up the street I would have bumped
22 into him.
23 Q. On?
24 A. On up the street, near the Chinese, you know.
25 Q. Okay. Did you hear anything else, shouting or ...?
49
1 A. No. As you see, I was a brave distance away. I was
2 looking to get home to my bed, you know.
3 Q. If we look at [09135], this is David Gray's statement --
4 "Rat" Gray, he called himself -- 30th May 1997.
5 Did you know him?
6 A. I know him to see, yes.
7 Q. He says he was with Mr Curran. If we pick it up four
8 lines down:
9 "Philip and I then went to the Buffs Club until about
10 1.00 am... We got a taxi from the football club to the
11 Buffs. When we left the Buffs, we went to get a Chinese
12 carry-out at West Street. We walked to the Chinese and,
13 on the way in, a young fella going past said they were
14 killing [each] other down the town. I don't know who this
15 young fellow was."
16 By the look of it that could well have been you, if
17 you see what I mean, from the conversation
18 Mr Curran had?
19 A. It could have been, yes.
20 Q. "Killing each other down the town", is that the sort of
21 phrase you would have used, do you think?
22 A. No. I would have said they were fighting down the
23 street. I can't say what happened, because I wasn't
24 there, you know.
25 Q. He says they went down the town after they got
50
1 a carry-out. You split up with them, I take it. You
2 didn't stay with them?
3 A. No, I went on home.
4 Q. We know that the police tried to get names of anybody
5 who was in the area, and across April and May 1997 they
6 interviewed quite a few people. When they interviewed
7 them, they asked them for names of other people they
8 were with and so forth. One of the people they saw was
9 Shelley Liggett.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It doesn't look as if the police got hold of you at that
12 time in the middle of 1997.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did they approach you at all?
15 A. They approached me once when I was at the house. They
16 were interviewing another fella and he said he was with
17 me. Because I lived round the corner, they called at
18 the door and asked was I with him, and I just told them
19 yes, I was, yes, but, after that there, there was
20 nothing more.
21 Q. Did anybody ask you to make a statement?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If we look at page [80234], this is the first page of
24 a two-page draft. Perhaps we could have both pages up
25 on the screen, [80234] and [80235]. It is a statement
51
1 that is drafted for you --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- by the Inquiry. This was sent to you with a letter.
4 Because the Inquiry doesn't have your address, it was
5 sent to your solicitors. I will just show you a copy of
6 the letter.
7 A. Thanks.
8 Q. It is dated 26th February 2008. It is care of your
9 solicitors. It says:
10 "I am enclosing two copies of the witness statement
11 that has been drafted to reflect the information you
12 have given to the Inquiry, together with a copy of any
13 materials which have come into the possession of the
14 Inquiry and which appear to bear on your statement.
15 I would be grateful if you would sign, date and return
16 one of the copies of the statement to me as soon as
17 possible and in any event within 21 days."
18 Did you get that letter?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Before today, have you seen a copy of this draft witness
21 statement?
22 A. This one here?
23 Q. The one on the screen.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you remember when you first saw it?
52
1 A. I can't remember when it was. It was a while ago.
2 Q. A while ago, you say?
3 A. It was a while ago, yes.
4 Q. Have you had a chance to look through it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it accurate?
7 A. Well, apart from my age, like, but everything else seems
8 to be. You know, I feel younger than I am. No, but
9 everything else seems to be. I have read it. It seems
10 to be ...
11 Q. Have you been asked to sign it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is that why you haven't?
14 A. No, because I don't want to sign it.
15 Q. You don't want to sign it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Why don't you want to sign it?
18 A. To tell you the truth, I don't want anything to do with
19 it, you know. It was none of my business. I walked
20 home. Other people had brought me into it. I didn't
21 want anything to do with it, you know.
22 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Currie. Other people
23 may have some questions for you.
24 MR ADAIR: No questions.
25
53
1 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
2 MR McGRORY: I have some questions.
3 I want to ask you some questions on behalf of the
4 Hamill family.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we could have perhaps page [03675] on the screen,
7 please, the very first paragraph, the top third of the
8 sheet, if that could be highlighted, please, one of the
9 issues in this Inquiry, Mr Currie, is whether or not
10 Allister Hanvey was involved in the attack on
11 Robert Hamill.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I think you are aware of that.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were a friend of Allister Hanvey's at the time, were
16 you not?
17 A. I would say there was a load of us all ran about
18 together, yes.
19 Q. You would have regarded him as a friend?
20 A. Not compared to some of the others, but I would call him
21 a friend, yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: One of the group of people you used to knock
23 about with, was he?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR McGRORY: What this document is is a record of the very
54
1 first contact between you and police, I would believe.
2 It is a document which is later dated 21st May 1997.
3 Do you remember talking to the police on that date?
4 A. No. Like I said, they called at my door. I was at the
5 house.
6 Q. You remember that occasion?
7 A. Yes, I remember them calling at the door, yes.
8 Q. What is recorded there is that you were with:
9 "... Newell, Tracy McAlpine and Kelly Lavery. They
10 were somewhat strung out but generally in the same area.
11 States he saw nor heard nothing in the town centre."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That accords with what you are now saying. Isn't that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. "Declined to make a statement. Nothing of an evidential
17 nature gleamed."
18 I presume that should have been "gleaned".
19 Was there any reason you would not make a statement
20 that you had seen or heard nothing at that time?
21 A. Because it was nothing to do with me at the time. It
22 was nothing to do with me. I just never made
23 a statement.
24 Q. What would have been the problem making a statement to
25 that effect at that time?
55
1 A. Nothing to do with me. Something happened that I wasn't
2 involved with, so I wasn't getting involved with it.
3 Q. But we can presume that if the policeman here has
4 recorded that you declined to make a statement, that you
5 were asked to make one. Do you accept that?
6 A. I can't remember, to tell you the truth, if he did ask
7 me to make a statement or not.
8 Q. You are saying to us now that even if he had have done,
9 you wouldn't have?
10 A. No, I wouldn't have, no.
11 Q. Would you not have regarded it as being helpful at all
12 to the police or have wanted to help the police to try
13 to find out who had killed Mr Hamill?
14 A. At the end of the day, I wasn't there. It had nothing
15 to do with me and I didn't want to get involved with it.
16 Q. But obviously you might have been able to help them, of
17 course, might you not?
18 A. Well, if I wasn't there and didn't see anything,
19 I couldn't help.
20 Q. On this occasion you don't appear to have been asked
21 about what the people you were with and people you would
22 have associated with, what they were wearing. Is that
23 your recollection that you weren't asked those
24 questions?
25 A. No.
56
1 Q. Had you been asked then what people were wearing, would
2 you have been able to remember?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Well, it was only a couple of weeks after the incident.
5 Would you not have remembered?
6 A. No, I wouldn't, no.
7 Q. Okay. May I please have up document [57019], please?
8 Question number 16.
9 Now, this is a document recording some questions you
10 were asked by the police several years later on
11 7th November 2001. Do you remember being interviewed in
12 2001?
13 A. It was in Lisburn I think it was, yes.
14 Q. "16). Can you recall what Allister Hanvey was wearing?"
15 Do you see that? You said:
16 "I was probably with him most of the night, but due
17 to the passing of time, I can't remember what he was
18 wearing."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Will you accept that, had you been asked that question
21 back in May 1997, four years earlier, you might have
22 remembered what he was wearing?
23 A. No, because, at the end of the day, people -- a whole
24 lot of people was there, you see, you know, so I wasn't
25 going to sit and look at what people was wearing.
57
1 I couldn't honestly tell the truth of what he was
2 wearing.
3 Q. Is it the case, Mr Currie, that you are not going to say
4 anything about Mr Hanvey?
5 A. No, because whatever I say, I could be telling lies. It
6 mightn't be the truth, so there is no sense saying
7 anything, you know.
8 Q. Now, you have already been shown the statements from
9 Mr Gray and Mr Curran, which would suggest that you had
10 warned them about trouble in the town.
11 A. Yes, it's taken for granted -- when you hear the sirens,
12 I took it there was trouble down the street.
13 Q. I am sure over the years, Mr Currie, you have heard many
14 sirens. Isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have heard ambulance sirens?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have heard Fire Brigade sirens?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. And you have heard police sirens?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Every time you hear a siren, no matter where you are or
23 what time of day it is, do you make an assumption there
24 is trouble down the street?
25 A. No, but this being a Saturday night, there probably
58
1 would be trouble, you know.
2 Q. Do you accept, Mr Currie, that by the time you run into
3 Mr Gray and Mr Curran, the trouble has already begun?
4 A. I couldn't honestly tell you that, to tell you the
5 truth, because when I heard the sirens, I was at
6 Mandeville Street. I don't think I bumped into them
7 ones until the Chinese.
8 Q. But you are telling us that the moment you hear the
9 sirens, you make an assumption that there is trouble.
10 A. Yes, there could have been, yes.
11 Q. That's how you are telling us that you knew there was
12 trouble.
13 A. Yes, when I heard the sirens, yes.
14 Q. Only on the strength of the sirens?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So by the time you meet Mr Gray and Mr Curran, do you
17 accept, if you are correct in your assumption that the
18 trouble has begun and the sirens have started, that the
19 trouble was well underway at that point?
20 A. Yes, could have been, yes.
21 Q. Now, you have said in your 2001 questionnaire to the
22 police when you were interviewed by them -- that's again
23 at page [57019] -- that you were with Mr Hanvey. You
24 said earlier also you were with him most of the night.
25 Isn't that correct?
59
1 A. Yes, there were a load of us, yes. We were all sat in
2 the same place.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Which question is this?
4 MR McGRORY: Sorry, sir. Certainly on this document you
5 say --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The previous page, is it?
7 MR McGRORY: Yes, I think so, sir, 57018. Page [57019],
8 question 16:
9 "I was probably with him most of the night ..."
10 Do you see where you told the police that in 2001,
11 Mr Currie?
12 A. Yes, I said that, yes.
13 Q. Now, I am going to suggest to you that you were in
14 Mr Hanvey's company throughout the evening. Isn't that
15 right?
16 A. Yes, at the Coach nightclub.
17 Q. You were in his company after the nightclub when you got
18 back into town. Isn't that correct?
19 A. No. That there means I was in the Coach nightclub with
20 him most of the night.
21 Q. I am going to suggest to you, Mr Currie, that you are
22 a friend of Mr Hanvey's.
23 A. No, not really.
24 Q. You certainly were a friend of his then.
25 A. I was then, yes.
60
1 Q. In common with most of those charged with the murder of
2 Robert Hamill, you visited them in prison. Isn't that
3 correct?
4 A. I did, yes.
5 Q. I am going to suggest to you that you were in a position
6 to see exactly what happened on that evening.
7 A. No, I was at home that night. I walked up the street.
8 Q. We know you weren't at home when you heard the sirens.
9 Isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You weren't at home when you told Mr Gray and Mr Curran
12 there was trouble down the town. Isn't that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Do you accept now you were in the centre of Portadown
15 whenever the trouble was going on?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I suggest to you that you were.
18 A. No. I was at Mandeville Street when the fighting
19 started.
20 Q. You are covering up for Mr Hanvey, that you, in fact,
21 know exactly what Mr Hanvey did.
22 A. No, I don't know what Mr Hanvey did. I wasn't with him.
23 Q. You are not telling this Inquiry the truth, Mr Currie.
24 A. I am.
25 Q. And you didn't tell the Inquiry the truth when you
61
1 refused to accept that you had personal and direct
2 knowledge of the trouble that was going on.
3 A. No. I was nowhere near the trouble.
4 Q. The only possible basis upon which you would have
5 volunteered that to Mr Currie and Mr Gray was through
6 your own personal knowledge of the trouble?
7 A. No, I was nowhere near the trouble that night.
8 Q. You simply cannot accept that you witnessed the trouble,
9 sure you can't?
10 A. I never seen it, so -- that's your words, not mine.
11 Q. If you witnessed the trouble, I am going to suggest to
12 you you would have witnessed Mr Hanvey --
13 A. I didn't see the trouble, so I didn't.
14 Q. -- kicking Mr Hamill?
15 A. No, I was nowhere near it.
16 Q. And, indeed, some of the others you visited in prison.
17 A. I didn't visit Mr Hanvey in prison.
18 Q. I didn't say you did. I said some of the others that
19 you did visit in prison.
20 A. Yes, some of the others, I did, yes.
21 Q. You witnessed them involved in the trouble as well.
22 A. No, because I was nowhere near the town centre that
23 night.
24 Q. But you stayed out of it.
25 A. No, I was nowhere near it.
62
1 Q. That's why you warned Mr Gray and Mr Curran not to go
2 down there.
3 A. No. It was when I heard the sirens, I said, "There is
4 probably trouble down the street".
5 Q. I suggest to you that that's nonsense, Mr Currie.
6 A. Well, it's up to yourself. That's their statements, not
7 mine.
8 MR McGRORY: No further questions.
9 MR McCOMB: No questions.
10 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
11 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
12 MR UNDERWOOD: One matter arising out of that.
13 Can we look back at [57019]? That question 16, you
14 were asked about in -- I think as late as November 2001,
15 7th November 2001, you were asked:
16 "Can you recall what Allister Hanvey was wearing?"
17 You say:
18 "I was probably with him most of the night, but due
19 to the passing of time I can't remember what he was
20 wearing."
21 Doing the best you can now, when you were asked this
22 in July 2001, could you actually remember seeing him on
23 the night?
24 A. Yes, because we were all out together, you know. There
25 was a load of us usually went to the Coach every
63
1 Saturday night.
2 Q. You say "usually". He was not at the Coach that
3 Saturday night. He was somewhere else.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. What I am asking you about is whether you were
6 misremembering?
7 A. Yes. As I say, I seen Hanvey that night, but I didn't
8 say, you know, I was with him all the time. You know,
9 you see people and drift off and stuff.
10 Q. The point is he was coming from West Street, not from
11 the bus stop.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If you were remembering then actually seeing him, as
14 opposed to remembering some different night --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- then you must have seen him in the town and not at
17 the Coach. Do you follow?
18 A. Yes, I follow what you say, yes.
19 Q. Or you must have seen him afterwards at Tracy McAlpine's
20 house. Doing the best you can now, can you tell us
21 where it was you saw him?
22 A. No. To tell you the honest truth, I can't remember. It
23 was that long ago, you know.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thanks very much, Mr Currie.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
64
1 MR UNDERWOOD: Thanks. That's your evidence.
2 A. Thanks.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 MR UNDERWOOD: We have six witnesses lined up for today. We
5 have obviously done three so far. The next one I am
6 told is due to arrive about 1.15. May I suggest we
7 break until 1.30?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well then, yes.
9 (12.15 pm)
10 (The luncheon adjournment)
11 (1.15 pm)
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Kelly Lavery, please.
13 MS KELLY ANN LAVERY (sworn)
14 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Please don't disturb yourself.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Miss Lavery, we are nothing like as bad as
17 you think -- well, most of us.
18 My name is Ashley Underwood. I am Counsel for the
19 Inquiry. I will be asking you some questions to start
20 with and I will be getting to you look at some things on
21 screen.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Can you tell us what your names are?
24 A. Kelly Ann Lavery.
25 Q. Now, you know what we are interested in is the night of
65
1 27th April 1997?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Particularly what we are interested in is what happened
4 about the fighting and how it broke out, what the police
5 saw or might have seen and what the police did. That's
6 principally what the Inquiry is interested in as far as
7 your evidence is concerned.
8 What I want to try to do is get the best out of your
9 memory as I can. I know how long ago it was and how
10 late at night, and all the rest of it, it was when you
11 saw this.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What we are going to look at first is a map, and then we
14 are going to look at a model on here and see what
15 jogging I can do of memories to see what we can get.
16 If we look at the map, first of all, we can see --
17 I don't know how familiar you are with the map of the
18 town, but you can see roughly from the bottom left going
19 up towards the top right we see Church Street going into
20 Market Street going into High Street. Towards the top
21 right-hand corner there you have a cluster of circles
22 with letters in, A, B and C. A is Herron's Country
23 Fried Chicken, or at least it was, and C was Boss Hogg's.
24 Do you follow me?
25 A. Yes, yes.
66
1 Q. We know that you were on the bus from the Coach Inn --
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. -- with some friends. We think the bus dropped you and
4 your friends off towards the top there where A is
5 marked. Is that right?
6 A. That's right, yes.
7 Q. You, I think, made your way up the High Street with
8 Tracy McAlpine. Is that correct?
9 A. Tracy, yes.
10 Q. Just help us. We can zoom in on this if you want to get
11 a closer view of it.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Let's do that, and then, if we go up towards the top
14 there. That's fine.
15 Can you help us with which side of the street you
16 would have been on? Would you have been on the
17 Boss Hogg's side or the opposite side to start with?
18 A. I think it would have been the Boss Hogg's side.
19 Q. I think you were planning to go up Market Street, were
20 you not, in the end, or West Street rather? I am so
21 sorry.
22 A. Where is that now?
23 Q. That's off the map. Do you see where the church is
24 towards the left?
25 A. Oh, yes.
67
1 Q. What a number of people have told us is they would have
2 been on the Boss Hogg's side to start with and they
3 would have crossed over at some point to get up on
4 towards West Street.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you help us about whether your memory is good enough
7 for this, whether you remember where you would have, if
8 you did, crossed the road?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Now, if we can have a look at the night-time model, what
11 we have here is something we have constructed from
12 photographs taken at the time. This can swing round.
13 We will turn it round to the right so we can see what we
14 are looking at here.
15 We are looking down the High Street there to where
16 you came from. Here is Number 7 Bakery at the top of
17 Thomas Street and Jamesons, looking down Thomas Street
18 now. Here is Eastwoods. Now, you are just about to
19 look up to the church and then to West Street. Stopping
20 here, we can see we have put a Land Rover there at the
21 top of Woodhouse Street. I think you saw a Land Rover,
22 didn't you?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether that's where it was or roughly
25 where it was?
68
1 A. I think it was sitting faced -- I'm not sure.
2 Q. Tell us what you think.
3 A. Well, I know I seen a Land Rover there, but I am not
4 sure what way it was faced. It might have been like
5 that, but I am not sure.
6 Q. You started to tell us you think it was facing out. Is
7 that your best recollection?
8 A. I think it was, yes. Yes.
9 Q. Could you have seen it somewhere different to that, do
10 you think, or is that where it was parked?
11 A. No, it was round there. It was round that area
12 somewhere, yes.
13 Q. Okay. By the time you got up to this sort of area, can
14 you tell us whether you think you were on the Land Rover
15 side of the road by then or whether you were over on
16 this side of the road still?
17 A. I don't honestly know.
18 Q. All right. Can you help us with what was going on?
19 Were there other people walking up the street from the
20 bus at the same time.
21 A. There was ones behind us, but, as far as I knew, we were
22 the first ones heading up the town.
23 Q. Right. We know Pauline --
24 A. Tracy and me.
25 Q. Pauline stopped off for chips at Boss Hogg's?
69
1 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
2 Q. You think you were the first up the town, do you, you
3 and Tracy?
4 A. Well, out of the bus. I don't know if there were other
5 people round this part of the town, but the ones off the
6 bus we -- normally they went for something to eat. We
7 just walked on up the town.
8 Q. Right. I know how difficult it is when if you have done
9 something a number of times and somebody asks you about
10 one of the occasions 12 years later.
11 Is what you are saying that you were normally the
12 first out of the bus and up the town, or you remember,
13 this night, being the first out and up the town?
14 A. Oh, I don't know.
15 Q. All right. Okay. Do you remember seeing any police
16 officers around and about?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you hear anything? Can you remember whether there
19 was any noise going on while you were walking up the ...
20 A. Just people talking and whatever behind us, you know.
21 Q. Uh-huh. Any shouting, swearing?
22 A. No. Well, no, I don't know what they were saying, but
23 I could hear talking -- you know, I couldn't hear people
24 talking. You could hear noise.
25 Q. Any worrying noise or just ordinary --
70
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- conversational ...
3 A. (Witness nods).
4 Q. Can we have a look at a statement you made? It is at
5 [09178]. This is made on 14th May, so two and a half or
6 three weeks after the events we are talking about here.
7 If we pick it up halfway down and if we magnify it from
8 about there downwards -- that's fine -- you say you fell
9 asleep on the bus. It goes on to say:
10 "Pauline went into Boss Hogg's ... we crossed over
11 the street and I do recall seeing a police
12 Land Rover ..."
13 Towards the bottom, about four lines from the bottom
14 you say:
15 "Somewhere just past the church Pauline caught up
16 with us."
17 Is that your recollection now, or do you have
18 a recollection of that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Then if we go --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you saying you don't remember her
22 catching up with you or you don't remember where you
23 were when she caught up? Do you see the difference?
24 A. No. I remember her catching up. I just can't remember
25 whereabouts.
71
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: We don't need to look at the detail, but in
3 the rest of that you describe going back to Tracy's
4 place --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- and what happened there.
7 If we go over the page at [09179], in the middle
8 third of the page really, about half a dozen lines down,
9 in that you say:
10 "When we got back, I went into the living room and
11 sat down where I fell asleep. During the time I was
12 asleep someone painted my face with make-up. When
13 I woke up and saw what they'd done I threw anybody who
14 didn't belong there out. I don't know who all was in
15 the house, but I did see Dean Forbes there and another
16 fellow who I know only to see through Tracey. He's
17 called Allister Hanvey."
18 Then you say you went home.
19 If we jump down to the final couple of lines on the
20 page, you say two lines from the bottom:
21 "Tracey Clarke and I walked down to Eden Cabs and
22 got a taxi home. I got in about 9 am on Sunday
23 morning."
24 Where is Eden Cabs, roughly?
25 A. It was where the stairs is, where Kutz hairdressers was.
72
1 Q. I think we are going to have to go back to the map and
2 see if you can help us with it on there.
3 A. Oh, right.
4 Q. Which end of the town is it? Is it up the
5 Woodhouse Street end?
6 A. It is down where A is.
7 Q. So you would have had to pass back across the
8 crossroads?
9 A. Yes, we had to go right the way down, yes.
10 Q. Can I now then get you to look at [70969]? This is
11 a typed-up version of a questionnaire which you were
12 asked questions about and they were then filled on to
13 this and then typed up, we think some time in 2000.
14 If we look at the last ten lines or so of that, you
15 were asked about five lines into this bit:
16 "Were you in the vicinity of the scene of the
17 incident?
18 Answer: "No. Only on the home the next morning.
19 "Q2B). Do you know Reserve Constable Atkinson?
20 Answer: "No.
21 "Q2C). Did you speak to him at the scene?
22 Answer: "With Tracey Clarke. Spoke to a policeman
23 who was at the scene which was cordoned off with tape."
24 Are you describing there what you saw on the way
25 back in the morning?
73
1 A. That was the next morning on the way back down to the
2 taxi.
3 Q. This might help us with timing, you see, about when you
4 kicked everybody out of your house, or the house.
5 We know from the statement you made that you woke up
6 and somebody had been playing with your make-up -- and
7 your face. You got upset and threw them out.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then you left.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Can you tell us whether you left shortly after that or
12 did you hang around for an hour or two?
13 A. When I woke up and put everybody out, I got my stuff
14 gathered up and then left --
15 Q. So --
16 A. -- but I don't know how long I was sleeping.
17 Q. All I am interested in is how long it took you, after
18 you kicked everybody out, before you left the house?
19 A. Oh, not very long.
20 Q. 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes?
21 A. I would say half an hour. It mightn't even have been
22 that, like.
23 Q. Right. You walked down through the town with Tracey --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- Tracey Clarke, and you spoke to a policeman at the
74
1 scene, you say, there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It was cordoned off?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We know it was cordoned off at 7.27. That gives us
6 a time, you see, for when you not only got there
7 yourself, but when you might have kicked people out of
8 the house.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Can you recollect what the discussion was about when you
11 saw a policeman at the scene?
12 A. I just asked the policeman what happened and he said
13 there was boys rowing in the town. That was it.
14 Q. Okay. Did you talk to Tracey about it at all?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Over the page on this, [70970], halfway down the
17 page there is a question:
18 Question: "Do you recall Allister Hanvey at the
19 party?"
20 Answer: "Yes."
21 Question: "Did you speak to him at the party and
22 what was discussed?"
23 Answer: "Only to put him out."
24 Then -- take my word for it -- over the page, you
25 were asked did you remember what he was wearing and you
75
1 said no.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you telling the truth there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So the position is, although you saw him at the party to
6 put him out, you had no recollection, when you were
7 asked about this, of what he was wearing?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How well did you know Tracey?
10 A. Clarke?
11 Q. Yes. Sorry. I should have made clear which Tracey I am
12 talking about.
13 A. Not really. It was me and Pauline that was friends, and
14 then Tracey and Pauline would have been friends. So
15 I wasn't friendly with Tracey Clarke really at all.
16 Q. I see. What about with Allister Hanvey? Did you know
17 him?
18 A. No, I didn't know him.
19 Q. When you walked up the town with her, did you understand
20 that she had been there all night?
21 A. Tracy McAlpine?
22 Q. Sorry. When you walked up the town with Tracey Clarke,
23 did you understand that she had been --
24 A. Oh, I didn't walk up the town with Tracey Clarke.
25 Q. I am so sorry. It was Tracy McAlpine you walked up
76
1 with?
2 A. Yes, it was Tracy's house, that owned the house, yes.
3 Q. I follow. It is entirely my fault.
4 A. You are all right.
5 Q. All right. I want you to now look, if you would, at
6 page [80630]. We can look at this and the next page on
7 a split screen, I think, [80631].
8 This was a statement which was drafted for you by
9 the Inquiry. I think you have had a chance to look at
10 this and you have a comment about paragraph 7, have you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the first line, is it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What's that, please?
15 A. It said I went straight to bed and Tracy did too. It
16 was me and Pauline that had went to bed.
17 Q. Okay. Apart from that, is this accurate?
18 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
19 Q. We know that this draft was sent to your solicitors on
20 26th February 2008 for them to pass on to you to sign.
21 Did you see it then?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you ever been asked to sign this?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you seen it before today?
77
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did you see it first?
3 A. Yesterday.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Miss Lavery. Those are the only
5 questions I have for you. Other people may have some
6 more.
7 MR FERGUSON: I have no questions.
8 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
9 MR McGRORY: I want to ask you some questions on behalf of
10 the Hamill family.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. If we can just go back to the second page of your
13 statement at [09179], which is the statement you made in
14 May 1997, the last few lines that Mr Underwood was just
15 speaking to you about in terms of whether it was
16 Tracy McAlpine or Tracey Clarke you walked down the
17 street with.
18 This is at the end of your statement of
19 14th May 1997. This is what happened after the incident
20 when you threw the boys out for drawing on your face
21 with the make-up?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, I understand that you woke up some time around
24 5.00 am?
25 A. Right.
78
1 Q. Do you remember that?
2 A. I don't know the time. Yes.
3 Q. Tracy McAlpine said in her statement in 1997 that you
4 woke up about 5.00 am and the pair of you went up to the
5 Esso garage?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That would be about right, would it?
8 A. Yes, we went to the Esso garage, yes.
9 Q. You went together?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You got crisps and an ice lolly. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You came back and then she went back up to the bedroom.
14 She said the three of you were in the bed together
15 because it was cold. Do you remember that?
16 A. After we come back from the garage?
17 Q. No, before you got up to go to the garage. You were all
18 sleeping -- there is nothing. I am just trying to get
19 the sequence of events here.
20 So yourself and Tracy McAlpine come back from the
21 garage. You have your ice lolly and your crisps. She
22 said she went back up to bed but you stayed downstairs.
23 Is that your recollection?
24 A. I went into the living room and fell asleep.
25 Q. Then you fall asleep.
79
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then there is a period of time during which these
3 fellas -- or maybe there were other girls there too --
4 mess about with the make-up and you wake up and discover
5 this?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Can you help us at all as to how long you had been
8 asleep for?
9 A. I've no idea.
10 Q. However, some time elapses. You wake up. You have the
11 make-up on your face and you get annoyed about this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I think the previous witness, Tracy McAlpine, said you
14 were angry.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. There are a number of boys there. Do you remember that
17 one of them was Allister Hanvey?
18 A. I remember telling him to get out.
19 Q. Yes, because indeed you say that to the police in 1997
20 and again in 2000 in the second questionnaire in 2000,
21 the year 2000?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Then it is after you put the boys out --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- that yourself and a Tracey go for a walk up the
80
1 street or to get a taxi?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, Tracy McAlpine --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we see which Tracy she is speaking of?
5 MR McGRORY: This is what I am getting to.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: We have two.
7 MR McGRORY: This page [09179] that's on the screen, you
8 say:
9 "Tracey Clarke and I walked down to Eden Cabs."
10 You just said to Mr Underwood you thought that might
11 have been Tracy McAlpine?
12 A. No. Sorry. That was -- when we got off the Coach bus
13 me and Tracy McAlpine walked up the town to her house,
14 but the next morning me and Tracey Clarke walked down to
15 the taxi.
16 Q. I think that's what Mr Underwood was trying to say to
17 you.
18 A. Right. Sorry. Yes.
19 Q. Can you remember anything about that occasion when you
20 and Tracey Clarke were together? It is the next morning
21 and you go and get a taxi home together. Isn't that
22 right?
23 A. Uh-huh, yes.
24 Q. Was there any conversation at that time about what had
25 happened the night before?
81
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. But that was Tracey Clarke all right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you help us at all with just what time this was?
5 Was it daylight?
6 A. In the morning?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you and Tracey Clarke leave to walk down the
10 street, you obviously encounter some policemen at the
11 scene of the incident?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Would this have been long after you had thrown the boys
14 out?
15 A. No, it wasn't that long. Once I got my stuff, we headed
16 down the town then. So it wasn't very long at all.
17 Q. So those boys that you threw out would have been there
18 pretty much most of the night?
19 A. Well, I don't know. I was in bed. They were there when
20 I woke up.
21 Q. You didn't throw them up until basically morning time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Just one other thing for you, Miss Lavery.
24 You were interviewed in March 2006 by the Inquiry. Do
25 you remember that interview?
82
1 A. Was that in Lurgan?
2 Q. I am not sure where it was. It was an interview with
3 somebody to do with the Inquiry. It was about all of
4 this, about three years ago.
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. During the course of that interview, you were asked what
7 had happened at the house and who was there and
8 everything. You said you couldn't remember. Do you
9 remember saying that to them? We don't have it that
10 I can show it to you, I am afraid, but I just ask you --
11 I will just tell you what you said on that occasion. It
12 was to Mr Pinfield. It was 26th March 2006. He said
13 you -- it is page 17 of your interview for those who
14 have the --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the transcript?
16 MR McGRORY: The transcript, yes, of the interview:
17 "I came back into the house and fell asleep on the
18 chair in the living room."
19 This would be after you had been up to the garage
20 presumably?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr Pinfield asked you:
23 Question: "Now, who did you notice in the living
24 room?"
25 Answer: "I couldn't have told you who was there."
83
1 Question: "Were there people in -- were there
2 people there?"
3 Answer: "Yes, but I don't know who. I don't even
4 think I spoke to any of them."
5 Question: "Did [Tracy] go into the living room with
6 you?"
7 Answer: "I don't know."
8 Question: What happened?
9 You said you fell asleep and you had no conversation
10 with anybody, and that you slept.
11 At no point in that interview did you volunteer at
12 all that you, in fact, saw Allister Hanvey there with
13 others and that you put them out and that people had
14 drawn on your face.
15 Can you tell us why you didn't give that information
16 back in 2006?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know Allister Hanvey now?
19 A. No. Now?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did anybody at any time say to you, Miss Lavery, that
23 you shouldn't tell anybody that Allister Hanvey was at
24 the party at that hour of the morning?
25 A. No.
84
1 MR McGRORY: Okay. Thank you very much then.
2 MS DINSMORE: No questions.
3 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB
4 MR McCOMB: Do you still have page [09179] in front of you
5 there? Perhaps the witness could be shown [09179]
6 again, please. If we could highlight the bottom
7 quarter, may I just -- if you look about three
8 lines down, do you see the words:
9 "After I'd thrown them all out, I got my stuff
10 together and went home."
11 Can you follow me there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thanks very much, Miss Lavery:
14 "I walked up through the town with Tracey Clarke and
15 saw that it was blocked off by police. We asked what
16 had happened and were told that there'd been a few boys
17 rowing in the town."
18 Just pausing there, would those have been police
19 officers you had asked and that was what you were told?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You go on to say in this statement of yours of 14th May:
22 "This was the first I'd heard about anything in the
23 town."
24 By that, did you mean you hadn't heard the night
25 before or earlier on that morning that anything had
85
1 happened involving anybody being injured?
2 A. No, I had been sleeping the whole time.
3 Q. Or, indeed, anybody being involved in any fighting
4 whatsoever?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. "I didn't hear any talk of it at Tracy McAlpine's", as
7 you have just said. "Tracey Clarke and I walked down to
8 Eden Cabs and got a taxi home. I got in about 9.00 am
9 on Sunday morning."
10 Now, is it fair to say that that evening, the
11 Saturday evening -- what had you been doing that
12 evening? Had you been to the Coach Inn?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Is it right to say that, along with many of your
15 friends, you had had quite an amount to drink?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is your recollection or was your recollection then, if
18 you can say, somewhat hazy?
19 A. Well, I can remember.
20 Q. Bits and pieces you can remember?
21 A. What happened, yes.
22 Q. But you couldn't remember everything, no doubt. You say
23 you saw nothing untoward happening on your way back
24 home?
25 A. No.
86
1 Q. Do you remember being at a party at Tracy McAlpine's?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Do you have an image of that in your head at the moment
4 or is it really that it is something which has come back
5 to you because you have re-read statements which you
6 have made? I mean, can you now picture in your mind
7 actually being at a party, albeit you weren't there or
8 weren't awake for very long?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Do you remember actually being there?
11 A. In the house?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Well, I was sleeping.
14 Q. I know that. Do you remember going there --
15 A. Oh, yes, yes.
16 Q. -- and being there the next morning --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- and something about paint being put on a face? Those
19 things come back to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I think you have told us already you didn't know
22 Allister Hanvey?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you know him to see or by name?
25 A. I just knew him to see by Tracey's boyfriend.
87
1 Q. Yes, yes. Can you be totally sure now that Allister was
2 there at Miss McAlpine's house from your recollection
3 now?
4 A. As far as I remember, I threw him out the next morning.
5 Q. There was no discussion that you ever heard about
6 anything had ever been done by him?
7 A. No.
8 MR McCOMB: Thank you very much.
9 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter. Now we know which Tracey it
11 was that you walked back up the town with.
12 A. Sorry.
13 Q. Can I just ask you this: we assume she was staying
14 overnight at Tracy McAlpine's house --
15 A. Right.
16 Q. -- because obviously you walked up the town with her the
17 next morning.
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. So you both left the same house at the same time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But you have told us that you threw out people who
22 weren't supposed to be there when you woke up and people
23 had been mucking around with your make-up?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. How is it she didn't get thrown out at that stage? Can
88
1 you help us with that? Was it just the boys you threw
2 out?
3 A. Yes. She was Tracy's friend.
4 Q. So she was supposed to be there. Is that what you are
5 saying? She was entitled to be there, because she was
6 Tracy McAlpine's friend?
7 A. Well ...
8 Q. Can you help us with whether she was downstairs, as far
9 as you were aware, during the night, or whether she was
10 upstairs?
11 A. I don't know. She wasn't in the room where I was.
12 Q. She wasn't in the room where you were?
13 A. No. I never seen her in the house.
14 Q. How did you come to walk down town with her? Can you
15 help us with that?
16 A. Well, she must have been there the next morning and she
17 lived in Parkmore as well. So we said we would get
18 a taxi down the town then.
19 Q. Do you see what I am getting at, though? What we are
20 trying to do is pin down where everybody was.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you left Tracy McAlpine's house with her, I think we
23 are all guessing she was there overnight. The reason
24 perhaps we are guessing that is, in her statement she
25 gave to the police, she said she was at Tracy McAlpine's
89
1 in the night.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. What I am asking you to help me with, if you can, is
4 whether you did see her at the house.
5 A. Only when we were going the next morning. I don't know
6 if she was there all night or ...
7 Q. You were asleep most it, of course.
8 A. I only know we walked down the town the next morning.
9 Q. So she could have been downstairs or she could have been
10 upstairs, as far as you were concerned, during the
11 night?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: I see. Thank you very much.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. It wasn't as bad as all that,
15 I hope.
16 A. Thank you.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Shelley Liggett next, please. I wonder if
19 now would be a good time for a coffee break?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Very well.
21 (2.05 pm)
22 (A short break)
23 (2.25 pm)
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps we could see Miss Liggett again.
25
90
1 MISS SHELLEY ELIZABETH LIGGETT (affirmed)
2 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
3 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Miss Liggett. My name is
4 Ashley Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry. I will
5 be asking some questions. It may be that other people
6 will ask a few at the end of it.
7 Can I your full names to start with?
8 A. Shelley Elizabeth Liggett.
9 Q. Can I ask you to have a look at the map on the screen?
10 I don't know how familiar you are with the map of
11 Portadown. What we have here -- if we look towards the
12 top right-hand corner, there is an area where there are
13 some little arrows and circles with letters in -- do you
14 see -- A, B, C?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. A is, or was, Herron's Country Fried Chicken. C was
17 Boss Hogg's. There are some barriers there. We think
18 that's where the bus from the Coach Inn would drop
19 people off by the barriers. Then, if you go along, you
20 can see High Street. Then it forks, West Street on one
21 side and it goes down Church Street on the other.
22 I want you to help us, if you would, about
23 27th April 1997. You appreciate what we are interested
24 in are events that happened at around the crossroads on
25 27th April in the early hours, because the Inquiry has
91
1 to try to find out whether the police got out of the
2 Land Rover at all or quickly enough to help Mr Hamill,
3 who was kicked or at least injured in such a way that he
4 died on that night.
5 Now, can you tell us, were you in the area at all
6 that night, for a start?
7 A. You see, I didn't see any fight. I don't know if the
8 police got out of the Land Rover or not.
9 Q. Don't worry. Let's take it stage by stage. Can we?
10 Were you in the area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How good is your memory about what was going on that
13 night?
14 A. It's vague. You know, reading back on the statement,
15 I can't remember half the people that was even -- who
16 was even there that night.
17 Q. All right. Were you on the bus coming back from the
18 Coach?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So you would have been dropped off with everybody else
21 up by the barrier, would you, where we see marked A
22 there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where would you have been going to after that?
25 A. We were heading on up the town. I had phoned a taxi and
92
1 it was collecting me at Tracy McAlpine's house.
2 Q. Does that mean you would have had to walk up
3 West Street? Looking at the map, can you see if you
4 walked along High Street, would you have walked along
5 West Street to get to her place?
6 A. Yes, I would.
7 Q. How old were you at the time?
8 A. 18.
9 Q. Okay. If we have a look at a night model, we have
10 constructed this from photographs at the time. We can
11 turn this quite quickly through 360 degrees just so you
12 can see where we are here.
13 This is looking down Thomas Street. This looks up
14 to the church and West Street on the right. You can see
15 there there is a junction, Woodhouse Street. We have
16 put a Land Rover in there. Now, if we look at that
17 Land Rover, have you got any recollection now of seeing
18 a Land Rover at all that night?
19 A. Yes, in around the same spot.
20 Q. Okay. When you saw that, would you have been on the
21 same side of the street as the Land Rover or would you
22 have been over where this photograph was taken from, or
23 in the middle or what?
24 A. I would have been crossing the road. I would have been
25 at the other side of the street.
93
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean on the other side of the street
2 as we look at the photograph?
3 A. I would have been on the side of the street where
4 Boss Hogg's would have been.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. That's the Thomas Street side.
6 A. Then I cut over.
7 MR UNDERWOOD: I think I might have misunderstood you. You
8 would have crossed around here, would you, crossed over
9 the road about this point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Right. What we are interested in is the speed at which
12 people got up the street, whether they all came up in
13 one group, whether they came up in dribs and drabs, what
14 was going on, all that sort of thing. So I want to take
15 you through that, if I can.
16 Who were you walking up with? Do you remember?
17 I think I was walking up with Paul Currie after
18 Boss Hogg's.
19 Q. Uh-huh?
20 A. He was in my statement. I made the statement whenever
21 it was fresh in my mind. We would have headed on up the
22 town. So the fight wasn't going on at that stage.
23 Q. Can you recall whether any other people were walking up
24 at the same time? Were there people ahead of you,
25 beside you, behind you? If you can't remember, tell us.
94
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Okay. Does anything stand out in your mind about the
3 atmosphere, whether it was frightening, hostile, whether
4 people were swearing at each other, whether there was
5 any violence, anything of that sort? Did you know this
6 area was a flash point for trouble?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If you had been walking up here and there had been
9 fighting going on, would you have noticed it? Is that
10 the sort of thing you would just walk past?
11 A. I didn't see any fights really in the town before that,
12 but I suppose Portadown is a flash point area.
13 Q. Uh-huh. What I am trying to get really is I think your
14 evidence is, isn't it, that you saw no fighting?
15 A. (Witness nods).
16 Q. What I am really trying to get at is whether, if there
17 had been any, you were the sort of 18-year-old who would
18 have shut your eyes to it and walked straight past or
19 whether you would have stood and watched?
20 A. I walked on by.
21 Q. You would have walked on by.
22 A. I did walk on by that night.
23 Q. What did you walk on by? That's the --
24 A. I didn't -- there wasn't -- me and Paul were just
25 walking on up the street and then, later, once we got to
95
1 round the church, we heard that there was commotion
2 going on behind.
3 I didn't think anything would have happened because
4 the police Land Rover was there. So ...
5 Q. Let's take that apart a bit. If we swing this shot
6 round to the left and we stop there, you say you had got
7 up to about the church. Were you still, as it were, in
8 this picture when you heard the commotion?
9 A. Probably on past the church.
10 Q. Okay. Tell us what you saw or heard. I know it is
11 12 years ago. Was it noise or was it flashing lights,
12 sirens, shouting?
13 A. I think I heard -- well, in my statement, as I said,
14 I heard a siren and commotion. I wouldn't have been too
15 close to it to hear what anybody was saying. So it was
16 just a commotion really.
17 Q. Was anybody coming down West Street towards it, do you
18 recall?
19 A. I remember passing a fellow that was drunk at around --
20 on up West Street, but I don't know who he was.
21 Q. But you didn't have crowds of people running down
22 West Street, for example, to join the fight --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- or anything of that nature? Did you hear any sirens?
25 A. I think I did. That's what I said in my statement.
96
1 I said in my statement at the time I heard a siren. As
2 you say, it is 12 years ago. I can't remember.
3 Q. We know from two people, a Philip Curran and David Gray,
4 that Paul Currie bumped into them on the way up. We
5 think you were probably with Paul Currie when that
6 happened.
7 Do you know Philip Curran or David Gray?
8 A. I don't recall those names.
9 Q. David Gray called himself "Rat" Gray. Does that help
10 you?
11 A. That's not familiar to me, no.
12 Q. What they tell us in their statements is that
13 Paul Currie bumped into them on his way up, their way
14 down West Street. He said something like, "They are
15 killing each other down the town". He has told us he
16 did, in fact, probably say that. If he was with you and
17 he was able to say that people were killing themselves
18 down the town, I wonder whether you might at the time
19 have seen something more or heard something more than
20 a commotion. Can you help us with that?
21 A. I can't remember even bumping into those two fellows.
22 Obviously, I had been working all day and I went
23 straight out from work. I had drink. It is like any
24 night. You don't go out and take notice of the ...
25 Q. All right. Then if we look at page [00262], this is
97
1 a statement of Tracey Clarke. It says Witness A at the
2 top, but it is her. If we look at the last third of it,
3 she says she walked as far as the Mandarin House in
4 West Street. She says:
5 "I think at that stage the other persons with me
6 were Pauline Newell, Tracy McAlpine, Kelly Lavery,
7 Shelley Liggett and a fellow called Jason", who we think
8 is Jason Woods:
9 "I would say that it was about 1.45 am approx when
10 we were in West Street, as the bus got in about 1.30 am.
11 Around this time, we heard shouting coming from the
12 Main Street. I can't remember what was said, but it was
13 something like, 'Fight, fight'. We all ran down to see
14 what was happening."
15 Now, did you know these other girls?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you see them around there, as she says?
18 A. You see, I can't remember that. I can't recall running
19 down the street or anybody shouting "Fight, fight", only
20 for reading that in the statement.
21 Q. Tell us about the sort of girl you were then. If you
22 had been out after a drink with girls that you knew and
23 there had been a fight, is it the sort of thing that
24 would have attracted your attention? Would you have
25 gone to look at it?
98
1 A. No, I wouldn't have.
2 Q. If we can go back now to page [09181], this is the
3 second page of the statement. You told us that you made
4 a statement to the police. If you want to see all of
5 it, of course you can. This is 26th May 1997. You say
6 in it, on that second page, much of what you have told
7 us. If we take the second half of it about six
8 lines down:
9 "When Paul", that's Paul Currie, "and me got past
10 Bennetts and into West Street I heard shouting and
11 a siren. I looked back down the street towards the
12 centre of the town and saw a crowd, maybe ten people.
13 I didn't recognise anybody in the crowd as I was too far
14 away."
15 Can you help us at all as to what the crowd was up
16 to?
17 A. I was too far away. If I had seen anything at the time,
18 I would have said it in that statement.
19 Q. What about the police? You say in your statement you
20 heard sirens. Did you see any police activity at all,
21 police cars moving, anybody getting out of a Land Rover,
22 anything of that nature?
23 A. I don't recall seeing any of it. If four policemen were
24 standing in front of me now, I wouldn't be able to say
25 which one was there.
99
1 Q. As I told you, one of the things we are interested in is
2 the question of when the police got out of the
3 Land Rover.
4 Can you help us about whether you saw any police get
5 out of the Land Rover at all?
6 A. No, I don't recall.
7 Q. You go on in there to say:
8 "Paul [Currie] and me just walked on up to
9 Tracey Newell's house in ..."
10 You give the address:
11 "I arrived there about 2.10 am. Tracey and
12 Pauline Newell and Kelly Lavery were already there.
13 Kelly shouted down that her and Pauline were in bed."
14 A few minutes later, I think your taxi driver
15 arrived to take you home. That is what you say there.
16 I just want to ask you how accurate that would have
17 been. You see, Iain Carville, who is another witness,
18 has given a number of statements about this. What we
19 get from that is the possibility that you stayed in the
20 house quite a long time. Can you comment on that.
21 A. I can't comment on Ian's times, but obviously at the
22 time I wasn't sitting going I needed to take a note of
23 the time. I ordered a taxi. He told me he was picking
24 me up at a time. He could have been late.
25 Q. Did you see Allister Hanvey at the party?
100
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Did you know him well?
3 A. I knew him. Everybody -- I knew him to see, yes.
4 Q. Okay. Excuse me a minute. You were talking about
5 a drunk person up in West Street. Was that somebody
6 young, old?
7 A. Probably around the same age as me at the time or ...
8 Q. Can you recall whether that was somebody wearing white?
9 A. I don't recall what they were wearing.
10 Q. Okay. Can you recall anything about him?
11 A. That he was quite drunk and unsteady on his feet.
12 Q. Finally, can I just get you to look at page [80679]?
13 This is a -- if we just flick through the seven pages of
14 this, can I get you to identify whether that's the
15 witness statement which you kindly signed for us?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Obviously I have asked you about a number of matters
18 that are contained in there anyway, but is that
19 statement true?
20 A. My statement that I made at the time was fresh in my
21 head. That statement made three years ago, when I was
22 reading it, I didn't remember half the people. So it
23 was only the best of my knowledge at the time.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: That's fine. Those are the questions I have
25 for you. As I said, maybe some other people have some
101
1 more.
2 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
3 MR ADAIR: If I might ask a few?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
6 MR ADAIR: Just to clarify a few matters with you about your
7 movements that night in the area of the junction.
8 Now, is my understanding right that, as you made
9 your way down from the area Boss Hogg's towards the
10 junction -- you know the junction of Thomas Street and
11 Woodhouse Street?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were on the Boss Hogg's side of the road?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was anything happening at that time that was out of the
16 ordinary or was it just like any other Saturday night?
17 A. It was just like people getting off the bus and moving
18 on up the street, nothing out of the ordinary.
19 Q. There was no aggression, no fighting, no shouting, no
20 scuffling?
21 A. Not that I seen, no.
22 Q. Now, you cross over somewhere around the junction of
23 Thomas Street and Woodhouse Street. I presume you can't
24 remember exactly where, but somewhere about there.
25 Can you remember did you cross over before the
102
1 Land Rover or after the Land Rover, if you know what
2 I mean?
3 A. It would have been after the Land Rover and after the
4 traffic lights, because I think I remember the
5 Land Rover sitting on the right-hand side.
6 Q. Do you remember seeing police in the Land Rover?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. Right. At that junction, at the time you passed the
9 junction, was there anything untoward happening or was
10 it, again, like any other Saturday night?
11 A. Just any other Saturday night.
12 Q. Was there anything that alarmed you or caused -- I think
13 the expression that has been used is, were there any bad
14 vibes about at that time?
15 A. I don't recall. I thought, you know, there is a police
16 Land Rover sitting there. I didn't think anything would
17 have happened.
18 Q. I know you say that. That's why I am asking you was
19 there actually anything happening that caused you any
20 concern?
21 A. No, I didn't see anything. No, there wasn't.
22 Q. Leaving aside the Land Rover?
23 A. No, there was nothing to cause me concern.
24 Q. You still have the map in front of you on the screen.
25 You then make your way, as I understand it, up
103
1 Market Street in the direction of -- is it West Street
2 you go into, or where do you go?
3 A. Yes, I think it would be West Street, yes.
4 Q. Were you walking at a normal pace?
5 A. I think so, yes.
6 Q. Did you hear anything, up to the time you have told us
7 about turning round, occurring behind you? Did you hear
8 any shouting?
9 A. There was a bit of a commotion going on, but I couldn't
10 hear exactly what was being said.
11 Q. Well, at the time the commotion was going on, did you
12 look round to look at the commotion?
13 A. I think me and Paul maybe stopped in West Street. If
14 two guys were supposed to have stopped us, we obviously
15 did stop. I don't remember two guys stopping.
16 Q. I am not talking about those two guys, Mr Gray and the
17 other gentleman.
18 Just to put it in simple terms, as you made your way
19 up West Street or up in the direction of West Street,
20 did you hear any aggressive shouting?
21 A. It would have been too far away. It was a good couple
22 of hundred metres, maybe 100 or 200 metres away.
23 Q. When you eventually did turn round -- you must have
24 turned round to see. You described this group of ten
25 people.
104
1 When you eventually did turn round and saw this
2 group of ten people, at that stage were they engaged in
3 fighting or could you say?
4 A. I couldn't tell you.
5 Q. Apart from that group of ten, there obviously would have
6 been other people in the general area?
7 A. Probably, yes.
8 Q. So is it fair to say that you can't say whether or not,
9 at that stage, police were actually out amongst the
10 crowd?
11 A. I couldn't say, no.
12 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
15 MR McGRORY: Sir, I might have some questions.
16 Miss Liggett, I will ask a few brief questions on
17 behalf of the Hamill family.
18 Now, you left the Coach in a bus. Isn't that
19 correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. There were a number of buses. Do you remember there
22 being a number of buses or was there just one bus?
23 A. I think two buses. It ran at different times.
24 I wouldn't be completely sure now.
25 Q. I think there is evidence there was an earlier bus and
105
1 a later bus. Would it be the case that a bus would have
2 come in, dropped some people and gone back?
3 A. I think it was the same bus driver, yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us whether you were on the second bus or
5 the first bus?
6 A. I think I was on the first bus.
7 Q. So you get off the bus and you walk down High Street.
8 Now, you have said that you went into Boss Hogg's and
9 that there was a queue. Can you remember how long you
10 were waiting there for? Was it a while?
11 A. I think Pauline ended up getting whatever food I was
12 looking, so I could have been in maybe ten minutes or
13 so. I don't recall.
14 Q. Then you went back to get a napkin or something because
15 your chip was hurting your hand it was so hot.
16 Then you walked down towards the junction of
17 Market Street and High Street and you observed the
18 Land Rover, of course --
19 A. (Witness nods).
20 Q. -- but there is nothing untoward at this stage?
21 A. Nothing untoward.
22 Q. How far would you say it is between the Land Rover at
23 the junction of Woodhouse Street and Market Street and
24 the beginning of West Street?
25 A. A couple of hundred metres.
106
1 Q. Yes. It wouldn't have taken you any more than, what,
2 say a minute or two to walk that, sure it wouldn't?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You have said in your original May 1997 statement that,
5 when you got past Bennetts and into West Street, you
6 heard a siren.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. We haven't had any evidence yet about the timing of the
9 sirens, but can I just ask you this: are you absolutely
10 certain that, as you entered West Street, having just
11 walked past the junction, you observed no fighting, no
12 trouble?
13 A. I observed no fighting, or I would have said in the
14 statement at the time.
15 Q. Yet you heard a siren just a minute or two after you
16 passed that junction. That's your evidence?
17 A. It could have been a siren from the Land Rover. I don't
18 know. Obviously it was fresh in my head at the time.
19 Q. Now you made your statement to the Inquiry some time
20 ago. The statement actually is signed in November of
21 last year. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Obviously you wouldn't have signed that statement had
24 you not been satisfied with the contents of it?
25 A. (Witness nods).
107
1 Q. Could I have page [80683] on the screen, please? The
2 top paragraph, which is the end of paragraph 13 from the
3 previous page, if that could be highlighted, please.
4 Now, Mr Underwood has already put to you this
5 section of Tracey Clarke's statement, that people all
6 heard, "Fight, fight", and ran down to see what was
7 happening. You deny that you were part of that group.
8 Isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes, I do. I don't remember anybody running past me.
10 Q. You say in your statement after that:
11 "I would say Tracey is a liar."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. It was a strong word to use, but I didn't recall it.
14 Q. Do you regard Tracey as a liar?
15 A. I don't really know her that well.
16 Q. Well, she made a very significant statement in 1997.
17 You are aware of that, are you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. She made a statement which implicated a number of people
20 in the murder of Robert Hamill, and in the very same
21 statement she would be suggesting that she was certainly
22 present in your company and that she was able to go down
23 and watch the fighting.
24 A. I didn't go and watch any fighting. She is saying,
25 "I think those people were with me".
108
1 Q. Is it the case, Miss Liggett, that you have a view about
2 Tracey Clarke, that she was telling lies in that whole
3 statement?
4 A. That statement was put to me and I didn't remember --
5 I didn't certainly run down the street and shout,
6 "Fight, fight". Therefore, I didn't agree with that as
7 being true.
8 Q. But you would agree with me there are ways of
9 disagreeing with someone. You could have suggested she
10 might be mistaken about that, couldn't you?
11 A. Yes, I think she was mistaken.
12 Q. But you said she was a liar?
13 A. Again, I said it was a strong word to use.
14 Q. I am just going to suggest to you, Miss Liggett, that
15 yourself and Mr Currie were together on this occasion
16 walking up West Street. Isn't that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That you, in fact, observed the fighting and you were
19 getting yourselves offside?
20 A. I didn't see anybody in particular hit anybody.
21 Q. Whether or not you saw anybody actually hit anybody else
22 is another matter altogether, of course, but does that
23 answer suggest that you actually saw some fighting?
24 A. No, it doesn't suggest. I didn't see any fighting.
25 Q. Why did you say, "I didn't see anybody hit anybody"?
109
1 A. Because I didn't. I don't understand all this.
2 Q. You said you didn't actually see anybody hitting
3 anybody?
4 A. I just walked on up the street and there was
5 a commotion. I didn't see anything.
6 Q. So there was a commotion.
7 A. You could hear shouting and all, but you couldn't hear
8 what was being said.
9 Q. Did this shouting give the appearance of being
10 aggressive shouting?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Well, are you sure about that? Is it not the case that
13 this was aggressive shouting and you were getting
14 yourself offside? The fighting was starting. Isn't
15 that right?
16 A. I was just wanting to get away from it all. I had
17 a taxi booked. I needed to go home.
18 Q. Well, with respect, Miss Liggett, if there was nothing
19 going on in the first place, you wouldn't have needed to
20 get away from it all. Sure you wouldn't?
21 A. As I said, I had a taxi booked, so I was making my way
22 on up the town to get it.
23 Q. Your answer was not that you were in a hurry to get your
24 taxi; your answer was that you wanted to get away from
25 it all, which suggests that there was something
110
1 happening.
2 Do you understand the question?
3 A. Yes, I think so.
4 Q. I am suggesting to you that that answer revealed that
5 there was something going on that you wanted to get away
6 from.
7 A. I suppose so, yes.
8 Q. So why are you suggesting earlier in your evidence that
9 there was nothing going on, that there was no -- there
10 was nothing really going on other than a mild commotion?
11 A. By the time I got up to West Street, there was a bit of
12 commotion going on, but I didn't turn round to go and
13 see what it was.
14 Q. Well, did the others go down and see what it was?
15 A. I don't recall. It is too long ago. The statement that
16 I made in 1997 was what I remembered.
17 Q. Well, are you sure your statement that was made in 1997
18 wasn't made to make sure that nobody felt that you had
19 anything else to offer in terms of what you had
20 witnessed?
21 A. I don't understand the question.
22 Q. When you made the statement in 1997, were you distancing
23 yourself from the events that night?
24 A. I wasn't withholding anything. I was just saying what
25 I remembered.
111
1 Q. I am going to have to suggest to you, Miss Liggett, that
2 you are not being entirely frank with us this afternoon,
3 that you were well aware that some degree of aggressive
4 behaviour had already started by the time you made your
5 way up West Street.
6 A. I don't recall. Like I said, the police was there, so
7 I didn't think anything major would happen anyway.
8 Q. That's another matter altogether. Let me make this
9 clear, Miss Liggett. There is nobody suggesting --
10 nobody -- that you did anything wrong that night. Do
11 you understand me?
12 What we are concerned about here is what others
13 might have done and what others might have seen. So
14 nobody is suggesting that you saw something that you
15 should have told people about at the time, but that
16 others you were with did, including Tracey Clarke.
17 Now, will you accept that the fighting had already
18 started before you left and headed up West Street?
19 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
20 MR McGRORY: Very well.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this: when you
22 heard the commotion, did you turn round just to see what
23 it was all about?
24 A. I think we did stop, but it would have been too far away
25 to see anything.
112
1 THE CHAIRMAN: You have told us what you didn't see. Tell
2 us what you can remember you did see. There was
3 a commotion coming apparently from this group of people,
4 was there?
5 A. It was a couple of hundred metres away.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I follow that. Could you see if they
7 were just standing still, moving about? Can you
8 describe to us what you saw?
9 A. I can't sit here and describe what I saw, because
10 I can't remember.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you.
12 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
13 MR McCOMB: No questions.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: There is nothing arising. Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Mark Black, please.
19 MR MARK KELVIN BLACK (sworn)
20 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD
21 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Black.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. My name is Underwood. I am Counsel to the Inquiry.
24 I will ask questions to start with.
25 Can I ask you your full names, please?
113
1 A. It is Mark Kelvin Black.
2 Q. How old would you have been in April 1997? A memory
3 test.
4 A. I am trying to count. About -- about 27.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, we are interested in the recollections
6 of anybody who was in the centre of Portadown in the
7 early hours of 27th April in order to try to determine
8 what the police would have seen from the Land Rover,
9 when they got out, whether they got out in time to help
10 Mr Hamill and what they might have seen once they got
11 out.
12 So what I want to ask you, first of all, is: can you
13 tell us what sort of recollection you have of the events
14 of 27th April?
15 A. As was writ down, it is very little.
16 Q. Doing the best we can with the materials we can, I am
17 going to try to jog your memory as far as I can get away
18 with. Let me know if you can't remember something or
19 I am pushing you too far. Okay?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. First of all, look at a map here, if you would. We have
22 a map of the centre of Portadown. If you look towards
23 the top right-hand corner there is a sort of Y junction
24 with arrows and circles with letters in, A, B, C. There
25 are barriers there. 'A' was Herron's Country Fried
114
1 Chicken at the time. 'C' was Boss Hogg's. We gather that
2 the bus from the Coach Inn dropped people off by this
3 area, by the barriers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what your movements were on that night?
6 A. Well, there were two buses went to the Coach usually on
7 a Saturday night and I got the first bus home, got
8 dropped off round between B and C and got off the bus to
9 make my way to the opposite end at the top of the town
10 where I was living at xxxxxxxxxx at that time.
11 Q. Would that have involved you going up West Street to get
12 to xxxxxxxxxx?
13 A. Just up High Street, then across the road up -- yes,
14 I would have eventually went up this street.
15 Q. So if you were dropped off on the left-hand side of the
16 road, the Boss Hogg's side, you would have eventually
17 had to cross the road at some point. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you dropped off on the Boss Hogg's side?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you help us with where you would have crossed the
22 road?
23 A. I suppose it would have been only a little bit, up,
24 towards -- as far as I can remember, it would have been
25 between Woodhouse Street and Woolworths at the time
115
1 round about there, as I can remember, I think.
2 Q. We can have a look at a model which we have put together
3 from photographs taken at the time. We can just do
4 a quick 360 degrees here. You can see this allows us to
5 look down Thomas Street, which we are just doing, where
6 Jamesons is. This is Eastwoods. Then you will see
7 emerging here the church, West Street and then going
8 over Clarks, Instep, the Alliance & Leicester. We have
9 put a Land Rover there.
10 Can you help us, in relation to this, where you were
11 likely to have crossed the road?
12 A. It might have been a bit further down or further up.
13 I honestly can't remember.
14 Q. As I say, we have put a Land Rover there. One of the
15 reasons for that is to see whether witnesses can help us
16 about whether they saw a Land Rover at all and, if so,
17 whether it was there or somewhere else.
18 Did you see a Land Rover?
19 A. No, I can't remember seeing one.
20 Q. All right. Can I take you to page [02387]? Here we
21 have a police document. I am not suggesting you were
22 shown this at the time, but it is something which
23 records a conversation with you, or appears to, in June
24 of 2000.
25 If we just look at the bottom part of the text,
116
1 I think this is probably the first occasion on which you
2 were asked by the police to say anything. It says where
3 you lived. Then it says:
4 "On the morning of the 27th April 1997, he came back on
5 the first bus from the Coach, in Banbridge, to Portadown.
6 He was dropped off at the bottom of the town and walked
7 up to the big church at the top of the town. He sat
8 there for about five minutes and then he walked to his
9 flat. Mark Black was very drunk. He did not see any
10 trouble in the town centre. He was unaware of any
11 incident in the town centre until lunchtime on Sunday
12 when he heard it on the TV. Mark Black was accompanied
13 by his brother Joe and, he thinks, Shelley Liggett when
14 he walked up the town and when he was at the big church.
15 Denied any involvement in any assaults in Portadown that
16 morning. Declined to make a statement."
17 Now, do you remember being interviewed for the
18 purposes of this note?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How good was your memory then of the events?
21 A. It is just basically what is recorded here.
22 Q. Is it right, then, that you sat down for about
23 five minutes by the church?
24 A. Yes. Well, it seemed that length of time to me at the
25 time.
117
1 Q. Okay. Then if we can go back, please, to [80062] --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you do, can you give us the date
3 of this interview?
4 MR UNDERWOOD: It looks like 13th June, sir. We see just at
5 the top of this text. It is not altogether easy from
6 these HOLMES action record prints to identify the right
7 date, but that seems to be the accurate one here.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps we could split the screen with
10 [80063] as well. This is a statement that was drafted
11 for you by the Inquiry. The way in which this came
12 about was that they interviewed you, I think, and
13 a transcript was made of that interview. Then this was
14 drawn up as a summary of that.
15 Now, I don't know whether you have had a chance to
16 look at this draft. Have you?
17 A. No, not ...
18 Q. Can I just take you through paragraphs 2, 3 and 4? In
19 paragraph 2 you say:
20 "On the night of 26th April 1997, I went by bus to
21 the Coach ... with Joe... and Shelley Liggett. I did not
22 notice any trouble at the Coach ..."
23 You got off the bus near the top of Thomas Street.
24 We know that is not quite accurate. Then you proceeded
25 to walk up West Street to St Mark's Church where you sat
118
1 on seats nearby. Again, that's what you told us
2 already. Then you say:
3 "From that location, I noticed a bit of a ruckus or
4 fight. I was not sure if it was Catholics or
5 Protestants or people who were on the bus together who
6 had had a falling out, as this was not uncommon when
7 people had been drinking. I could not tell if the
8 fighting was sectarian but I think there were over 20
9 people involved.
10 It looked like a free-for-all with people also
11 gathering around to watch the fight. My main concern
12 was that my brother, Joe, was not involved and, apart from
13 that, I was not all that interested. We headed home not
14 long after it started. I did not notice any police
15 presence in town that night or see the police break up
16 the fight."
17 As I say, what I am trying to do is get the best
18 memory out of you that I can. I don't want to put words
19 in your mouth that are not accurate. Let us take this
20 through in stages. Can we?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We have you sitting down in the area of the church after
23 you had walked up towards West Street. Is it right that
24 you saw a bit of a ruckus or fight?
25 A. I seen, like, people gathering round. I didn't know
119
1 what it was. Obviously I thought it was a fight.
2 I didn't care. It was nothing to do with me and my
3 brother was with me because he was under-age drinking at
4 the time. So I just wanted him to be home safe. We
5 headed off just after that.
6 Q. You say there in paragraph 3 you think there were over
7 20 people involved. Again, how accurate do you think
8 that is?
9 A. As I say, I was pretty drunk, but there was, like,
10 a crowd of people from what I could see. I don't know
11 the exact number. I just guessed when I said that.
12 Q. Then in paragraph 4 you say there:
13 "It looked like a free-for-all with people also
14 gathering around to watch the fight."
15 Can you give us some impression of whether people
16 were flocking towards it from all directions or whether
17 people were just simply stopping on their way past to
18 watch it?
19 A. More like people stopping on their way past.
20 Q. One of the things the Panel is going to be interested in
21 knowing is whether people rejoined it who had gone past
22 the junction, were going up West Street, heard there was
23 something going on and went back down either to watch or
24 take part. Can you help with that?
25 A. I can't help with that.
120
1 Q. You have said in that note the police have recorded that
2 you were there about five minutes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you help us with whether that's accurate?
5 A. It would have been pretty accurate, because I had the
6 leftovers of a bottle of beer. By the time I finished
7 that, it was time to head on.
8 Q. You say there you didn't see any police presence in the
9 town or see police break up the fight. We know there
10 was the police Land Rover there. Can you help us at all
11 about hearing sirens, seeing blue flashing lights?
12 A. As -- I was away before that. I only lived
13 five minutes' walk past that, up towards xxxxxxxxxx.
14 The only time I heard about it, as I said, was on the
15 news the next day.
16 Q. How old was Joe? You say he was under-age drinking.
17 A. I can't do the maths, but I know he was under-age at the
18 time. I think he was anyway.
19 Q. He will tell us.
20 Is there anything else you can think of that you saw
21 or heard that night that would help the Inquiry about
22 how quickly this all developed and about whether the
23 police did anything in time?
24 A. I never seen any police about the town. I wasn't
25 looking for them, to start off with. We just got off
121
1 the bus. We were minding our own business, walking up
2 the road towards my flat I had at the time. The last
3 thing I was looking for was a police presence, to tell
4 you the truth.
5 Q. Would it be reasonable to infer from your recollections
6 that there was nothing going on when you walked past the
7 Thomas Street/Woodhouse Street junction, but, by the
8 time you got to the church, there was a ruckus?
9 A. I can remember sitting there about five minutes
10 finishing that bottle of beer I had and basically took
11 a look -- when I got up to walk off home, looked round
12 and seen a couple of people or like a crowd gathering
13 and I just thought, "Well, it's nothing to do with me",
14 and just wanted to go home.
15 Q. So you think it was at the back end of your five minutes
16 at the church that this started?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you help us with one other thing, and that's whether
19 there were other people around where you were while you
20 were sitting drinking your beer.
21 A. The only people I can remember is Shelley and Joseph
22 with me.
23 Q. What about Paul Currie? Did you know him?
24 A. I do know him, yes.
25 Q. Can you recall whether he was around at that stage?
122
1 A. I can't remember.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Those are the questions I have. Other people
3 may have some more for you.
4 MR FERGUSON: No questions.
5 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR
6 MR ADAIR: Just a few matters, sir, if I may, please.
7 I wonder if you could bring up again -- I think it
8 was page [02387]. Is that up in front of you, Mr Black?
9 A. It is, yes.
10 Q. Now, we are not absolutely sure of the date of this
11 document, but do you remember being spoken to by the
12 police some short time after the incident?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that in your own house or at the police station or
15 can you remember where it was?
16 A. The police station.
17 Q. At the police station. Had they called you to come
18 down?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If could you highlight the bottom portion, please, is
21 what you told the police on that occasion true? If you
22 read it first.
23 Now, before you answer me, I think in fairness to
24 you I should preface that with: do you accept that's
25 what you told the police?
123
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it true? It is a fairly simple question. Is it
3 true? What is the problem with the question, Mr Black?
4 A. There is no problem with the question.
5 Q. Is it true or is it not true?
6 A. From it and the next statement there is a few words
7 different, but pretty much the same and, yes, it's true.
8 Q. This is true?
9 A. Well, between the two statements there is a few words
10 what's different, but between both of them, yes, I think
11 they're the truth. I know they are the truth.
12 Q. Which words are different?
13 A. Just where I was dropped off basically.
14 Q. Do you see about halfway down this account that you gave
15 to the police --
16 A. Yes --
17 Q. "Mark Black was very drunk."
18 First, were you very drunk?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "He did not see any trouble in the town centre."
21 Is that true?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Well, why did you tell the police that you did not see
24 any trouble in the town centre?
25 A. Well, at the time when I gave that statement remembering
124
1 back the night, I didn't. All I seen was a crowd of
2 people. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't care
3 what was going on. It was nothing to do with me and
4 I just wanted to go home.
5 Q. Why did you tell the police that you did not see any
6 trouble in the town centre when you told us today that
7 you did?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. "He was unaware of any incident in the town centre."
10 Was that true?
11 A. Well, I didn't really know there was an incident in the
12 town centre until after it.
13 Q. You now tell us today -- sorry. Just to complete this
14 particular document, the police obviously then asked you
15 to make a written statement -- is that right --
16 a statement setting out what you had told them?
17 A. I can't remember doing that.
18 Q. Do you see the words at the bottom of the page,
19 "declined to make a statement"? Do you not remember
20 that the police asked you to make a statement to help
21 them with their enquiries into what had happened on the
22 night Mr Hamill was killed, and did you decline to?
23 A. Well, I thought my statement was good enough, because
24 I don't know anything.
25 Q. Is that the only reason you declined to make
125
1 a statement?
2 A. Pretty much. If I knew something, I would have, but
3 I don't.
4 Q. Now, I just want to ask you very briefly, Mr Black,
5 about what exactly you now say you did see on that night
6 in question. Okay?
7 As you made your way down from the Boss Hogg's
8 direction towards West Street going home, have you no
9 recollection of seeing a police Land Rover parked at the
10 junction?
11 A. No.
12 Q. People have different notions of what very drunk is. Is
13 your notion of very drunk that you were stocious? Do
14 you understand the word "stocious"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that what you were that night?
17 A. No, I could walk.
18 Q. You could walk?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: You had better translate stocious for me.
20 MR ADAIR: I think in Irish parlance it is exceptionally
21 drunk.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You were stocious, were you?
23 A. No, I could still walk.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR ADAIR: Was there anything untoward either being said or
126
1 happening at the junction of Thomas Street and
2 Woodhouse Street as you passed it?
3 A. I never seen anything, never heard anything.
4 Q. You have told us that you then -- and again, I am
5 summarising to an extent -- make your way up to the
6 direction of St Mark's Church and sit to finish your
7 beer.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Coming to the end of the time you are there, the
10 impression I got -- correct me if I am wrong -- is that
11 as you are making your way off, you hear a commotion.
12 Is that right?
13 A. I don't know if I heard or seen --
14 Q. Right. So --
15 A. Out of the corner of my eye, I think I just basically
16 seen people gathering. I just looked for my brother who
17 was with me, because he was sitting beside me the whole
18 time, and we just decided -- I seen it and I said,
19 "Let's go".
20 Q. Get him home. So the Panel understand what you are
21 saying and so I understand, too, what you are saying,
22 you are not actually saying you are sure you saw
23 anything, but you heard something. At least you are
24 sure of that?
25 A. No, I seen people gathering.
127
1 Q. You saw people gathering?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see them do anything?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Once you saw the people gathering, was it then you
6 decided to get away and take your brother home?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR ADAIR: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory?
10 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY
11 MR McGRORY: Mr Black, I have some questions to ask you on
12 behalf of the Hamill family.
13 I want to make it clear to you that I am not
14 suggesting you did anything wrong this night, that you
15 were involved in any fight. I am really trying to get
16 to the bottom of what you might have seen and what
17 others might have seen. Do you understand that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us how far up West Street you had got by
20 the time you heard that there was a commotion?
21 A. I didn't hear anything.
22 Q. Are you sure --
23 A. Not that I can recall.
24 Q. Okay. Could I have document [15544] on the screen,
25 please? While that's coming up, did you lose track of
128
1 your brother at any point?
2 A. No.
3 Q. He was with you at all times?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But you had said in your statement that you were
6 concerned about him?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you concerned that he might have got himself
9 involved in anything?
10 A. No. When I said I was concerned for my brother, it is
11 your brother. He might have been under-age drinking at
12 the time, and who doesn't care about their brother just
13 to get them home?
14 Q. No, but if he is with you at all times, then you know he
15 is not in trouble, because he is with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So was he with you?
18 A. He was, yes.
19 Q. So when you say you were concerned about him, you were
20 just concerned to get him home?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now this document, if you could please just highlight
23 the bottom third from that number. That's perfect.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have an approximate date for this
129
1 document?
2 MR McGRORY: I might need some help from Inquiry Counsel on
3 that, sir. This appears to be a record of
4 a conversation a policeman had with your brother
5 Joe Black. I am afraid -- it might be June.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: We think it is 19th June 2000.
7 MR McGRORY: Thank you for that. I had difficulty trying to
8 work out the date. Do you see that now? I will just
9 let you read this or maybe I will read it out to you.
10 This is your brother talking to the police now:
11 "On the 26th April 1997, he went to the Coach in
12 Banbridge. He travelled back from the Coach by bus
13 arriving in Portadown about 1.30 am. He was accompanied
14 by his brother Mark and Jason Woods. As far as he can
15 recall, he went to Herron's Country Fried Chicken and
16 got something to eat. (Black stated that he had taken
17 a few drinks in Banbridge, but that he was not drunk).
18 He then walked up the Main Street in Portadown with his
19 brother."
20 So far, so good. That doesn't disagree with what
21 you said. Sure it doesn't?
22 A. No.
23 Q. "He was going to stay the night in his brother's flat in
24 xxxxxxxxxx, so they walked up West Street."
25 Is that correct?
130
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "When at the Job Centre in West Street, he heard
3 a commotion ..."
4 How far up West Street is the Job Centre?
5 A. It has been moved now, but it wouldn't have been that
6 far from the church at the time.
7 Q. So certainly if there was a commotion going on down at
8 the junction of Woodhouse Street, Thomas Street and
9 Market Street, it would have been audible from the
10 Job Centre?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, your brother has said here to the police that he
13 heard a commotion and you were with him. So would you
14 not have heard the commotion?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn't hear it. Okay:
17 "... he heard a commotion/shouting down in the centre of
18 town. He walked back down to the big church and he was
19 told by others that there was fighting going on down the
20 town."
21 Now, do we take it that you walked back with him?
22 A. As far as I can remember, I can't remember that part.
23 I can remember sitting at the church and seeing a crowd
24 and walking on home and going back to my flat I had in
25 xxxxxxxxxx at the time.
131
1 Q. We will go on:
2 "He did not go any further than the church. He did
3 not see or recognise anyone fighting that night in the
4 town centre. He could not recall seeing any police or
5 police vehicles in the town centre that night, but
6 stated that normally there is a police Land Rover in the
7 town centre. Joseph Black denied being involved in any
8 trouble in Portadown town centre that night or being
9 involved in any attack on Robert Hamill. He walked to
10 Mark's flat with approximately six people."
11 Now, you have said you watched the fighting for some
12 time.
13 A. For a split second. I seen people. I didn't know if it
14 was an actual fight, but I just guessed, with it being
15 Portadown, it probably was.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean a gathering at that time of night
17 there portends trouble? There is trouble brewing?
18 A. It has been known for it in the past.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
20 MR McGRORY: Your brother has told the police there were
21 approximately six people.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you help us as to who those others might have been?
24 A. I know Jason Woods. I think he was back in my flat that
25 night or that house I had.
132
1 Q. We are really talking about who you were with in
2 West Street and walking back up West Street after you --
3 A. When we got back to West Street, down to the entrance of
4 Jervis Street and into the entrance to go into
5 Brownstown, there was ones split up. There was ones
6 headed home to their home in Brownstown. There were
7 a few people headed into my house for that night.
8 Q. You will agree with your brother's account that there
9 was a company of about six?
10 A. Round about that. I can't remember.
11 Q. Now you have already said you were with Shelley Liggett.
12 Could she have been one of the company?
13 A. Yes, she was.
14 Q. Would she have stopped with you to observe the
15 commotion?
16 A. I don't know what she seen. I can't answer for Shelley.
17 Q. No, no. I am not asking you what she saw. I am asking
18 you whether or not she was with you when you were
19 standing with your brother and the other company
20 watching the commotion?
21 A. I don't know who else seen it, but when I seen a crowd
22 of people, I just wanted to get out of town.
23 Q. I will ask the question again. Will you listen very
24 carefully? I am not asking you what anybody else saw.
25 A. Yes.
133
1 Q. I am asking you who was with you at the time that you
2 made your observations.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Okay? Never mind what anybody else saw, but was
5 Shelley Liggett with you at the time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 You have been asked about a fellow called
9 Paul Currie. Did you know a Paul Currie?
10 A. I know of him, yes. I know him now.
11 Q. You know him now. Has this just come to you?
12 A. Well, I didn't know him by that name at that time.
13 I knew his nickname and that was it at the time.
14 Q. You see, others have said that Paul Currie was in
15 West Street around about this time.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could he have been in your company?
18 A. I don't know. I can't answer that.
19 Q. You are not saying he wasn't?
20 A. I am not saying he wasn't, no.
21 Q. But Shelley Liggett certainly was?
22 A. The only two I can remember is Shelley and Joseph.
23 MR McGRORY: Okay. Thank you very much.
24 A. Okay. Thank you.
25 MS DINSMORE: I have no questions.
134
1 MR McCOMB: No questions.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr Black.
5 A. Thank you.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 MR UNDERWOOD: I think it is with regret that we have
8 finished the six witnesses slated for today. I am
9 obviously capable of going faster than the record pace
10 of six witnesses. I think we have five for tomorrow.
11 All I can do is offer apologies for an early rise.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. 10.30 then tomorrow morning.
13 (3.25 pm)
14 (The hearing adjourned until 10.30 am tomorrow morning)
15
16 --ooOoo--
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18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
135
1 I N D E X
2
3
MRS PAULINE ROGERS (sworn) ....................... 1
4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 20
5 Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 21
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 23
6 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 24
7 MS TRACY McALPINE (affirmed) ..................... 24
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 24
8 Cross-examination by MR FERGUSON .......... 37
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 39
9 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 40
Questions from THE CHAIRMAN ............... 42
10
MR PAUL CURRIE (affirmed) ........................ 42
11 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 42
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 54
12 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 63
13 MS KELLY ANN LAVERY (sworn) ...................... 65
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 65
14 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 78
Cross-examination by MR McCOMB ............ 85
15 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD .......... 88
16 MISS SHELLEY ELIZABETH LIGGETT ................... 91
(affirmed)
17 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD .............. 91
Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 102
18 Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 105
19 MR MARK KELVIN BLACK (sworn) ..................... 113
Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 113
20 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 123
Cross-examination by MR McGRORY ........... 128
21
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23
24
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136
