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Hearing: 12th February 2009, day 15

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PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF

ROBERT HAMILL

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Held at:

Interpoint

20-24 York Street

Belfast

on Thursday, 12th February 2009

commencing at 10.30 am

Day 15

1 Thursday, 12 February 2009

2 (10.30 am)

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood.

4 MR UNDERWOOD: Kenneth Hanvey, please.

5 MR KENNETH HANVEY (sworn)

6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Hanvey.

8 A. Morning.

9 Q. My name is Underwood. I am counsel for the Inquiry.

10 I will be asking you some questions. It may be some

11 other people will ask you questions after that. May

12 I ask you your full name?

13 A. Kenneth George Hanvey.

14 Q. Are you the father of Allister Hanvey?

15 A. I am.

16 Q. In April 1997 was he living at home with you?

17 A. He was.

18 Q. Who else was living at home with you at that stage?

19 A. Elizabeth, my wife, and three other sons.

20 Q. Can I ask you to look, please, on the screen at page

21 [22104]. You may not have seen this before. It is not

22 your document. It is a document made by

23 Detective Inspector Irwin. What he is saying in here is

24 what he recounts of a conversation between you and him

25 on 25 November 1997. If I could read to you the top

1 half.

2 He says he called with both, that is you and your

3 wife, at an address on 25 November between 7.25 pm and

4 7.35 pm. Confirmed your telephone number, but it had

5 been changed due to threatening phone calls following

6 charging of your son Allister. And he goes on:

7 "Asked Kenneth Hanvey about receiving phone call on

8 27th April 1997 in morning time. He related he recalled

9 receiving phone call from a Michael McKee. It was

10 a Sunday morning and he got out of bed. Michael asked

11 if Tracey Clarke was with Allister. As a result he

12 went and checked bedroom but Allister wasn't home and

13 assumed staying in his brother's house. He returned and

14 told Michael Tracey wasn't there. That's all that was

15 said."

16 Now, do you recall that conversation?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you recall being asked at all about a telephone call

19 on the early morning of 27 April?

20 A. From Detective Irwin?

21 Q. By anybody? Has any police officer asked you about that

22 telephone call?

23 A. I am not sure, but I don't recall.

24 Q. What I want to ask you about is whether you recall such

25 a telephone call?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you know Michael McKee at the time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you know Robbie Atkinson at the time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Eleanor Atkinson?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you accept the possibility then that any one of

9 those could have phoned you on the morning of

10 27 April 1997?

11 A. If they did, I did not recall it.

12 Q. Do you know that Michael and Andrea McKee have received

13 prison sentences for admitting a conspiracy to cover up

14 a phone call that was made on your home on

15 27 April 1997?

16 A. I had heard somewhere that Michael McKee had received

17 a prison sentence. I didn't know anything about

18 Andrea McKee.

19 Q. Hers was a suspended sentence, to be fair. Have you

20 inquired into that? Have you talked to either of them

21 about it?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Have you talked to Robbie Atkinson about it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can I ask you then to look, please, at page [09193] on

1 the screen? If we can highlight all of that page. This

2 is a witness statement made by Thomas Hanvey. Is that

3 your brother?

4 A. That is my brother, yes.

5 Q. Can I just show it to you and get your comment on it, if

6 I may? This is dated 11 May 1997. What he says in it

7 is:

8 "I live at an address known to the police. I am the

9 uncle of Allister Hanvey... My brother Kenneth Hanvey is

10 Allister's father. I can remember Sunday morning

11 27 April 1997. I was at home I was lying on the sofa

12 in the living room watching a late film. Sometime at about

13 half three or four that morning, Allister arrived at my

14 home. He would often come to my house if he had

15 drink taken as his family aren't in favour of him taking

16 drink. He wouldn't come to my home on a regular basis

17 but usually about twice a month. He had a brave few in

18 him but wasn't drunk. He wasn't falling about the

19 place. I was cross with him because he had come to the

20 house so late. I went to bed but before I went to bed

21 he told me that there had been a fight up the town.

22 I asked him if he had been involved in the fight and

23 he said that he hadn't. I then went on to bed. That

24 night Allister was wearing a navy or black jacket, blue

25 jeans and a T-shirt. I'm not sure about the colour of

1 the T-shirt and I think he was wearing a pair of

2 trainers on his feet. The jacket was quilted like a

3 bomber jacket. The next morning Kenneth his father came

4 to my house at about half nine or a quarter to ten. He

5 does that every Sunday morning unless he's working ..."

6 If we go over the page:

7 "... and he took Allister home with him."

8 Now, with the aid of that, which was made a couple

9 of weeks after the events of 27 April, can you recall

10 what happened on the morning of 27 April 1997?

11 A. No, I can't. No.

12 Q. Is it true that you generally picked up Allister Hanvey

13 from Thomas Hanvey's home on a Sunday morning?

14 A. Not generally, but if he had been there I would have

15 picked him up.

16 Q. The witness statement here contains details of what

17 Allister was wearing. Can you recall what he was

18 wearing?

19 A. Not at all.

20 Q. Did you have any discussions with Thomas in late April

21 or early May 1997 about covering up for Allister?

22 A. Not at all.

23 Q. Can we look at page [14916], please? In fact let's not

24 do that. Let's look at [17361]. This is a statement of

25 a detective constable, Mr McCrumlish, and 10

1 November 2000, and if we highlight the text, we can see

2 in the second sentence:

3 "On Sunday 11/5/97, accompanied by

4 a D/C McIntosh, I called at the home of Mr

5 Kenneth George Hanvey. There we spoke to Mr Kenneth and

6 Mrs Elizabeth Hanvey. We questioned them as to the

7 involvement of their son Allister on 26/4/97.

8 They related how Allister left home after tea and went

9 into town. He was wearing blue jeans, trainers and

10 T-shirt (no colour available) black coloured padded

11 jacket all the one colour, CAT type. Asked when they

12 had first heard of the fight, they stated Kenneth and

13 wife had got out of bed around 9am on 27/4/97. He

14 (Kenneth) went and fed cattle and wife made breakfast.

15 Kenneth then went to his brother Thomas's house and

16 spoke to Allister who informed him of the fight. Mr

17 Hanvey further related how Allister had told him that he

18 had helped police to keep the crowd back and Mr Kenneth

19 Hanvey suggested that this policeman would be giving

20 evidence on behalf of Allister Hanvey. Mr Hanvey

21 refused to identify this policeman. Mr Hanvey stated

22 that the story in the town was that the police were not

23 being truthful and had in fact initiated the sequence of

24 events. Both Mr and Mrs Hanvey declined to make

25 a written statement."

1 Do you recall this conversation?

2 A. No, not at all.

3 Q. If we just concentrate on the last ten lines or so,

4 where it says:

5 "Mr Hanvey further related how Allister had told him

6 that he had helped police to keep the crowd back and

7 Mr Kenneth Hanvey suggested that this policeman would be

8 giving evidence on behalf of Allister Hanvey."

9 Had you spoken to Allister about a policeman who

10 might give evidence for him?

11 A. No, not at all.

12 Q. Why would this be in this statement, do you think?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. Why did you decline to make a statement?

15 A. Because it was my legal right not to make a statement.

16 Q. Your son was in custody for murder, wasn't he?

17 A. At that particular time?

18 Q. Yes. He had been arrested the day before?

19 A. Right. Right.

20 Q. Were you concerned when he was arrested for murder?

21 A. Of course. Devastated.

22 Q. Were you concerned to help him out?

23 A. You will do your best to help your children. I am sure

24 you will.

25 Q. So why will you stand on your legal right not to make

1 a statement if you can help him out?

2 A. Because I didn't think I was involved in any way.

3 I didn't think I had to make a statement.

4 Q. Let me suggest this to you, that on the morning of

5 27 April you received a telephone call from Mr Atkinson

6 that warned you that your son had been in trouble and

7 that he needed to get rid of his clothes. What do you

8 say to that?

9 A. Totally untrue.

10 Q. You recall that, do you? You recall it not happening?

11 A. I don't ever remember any phone call coming to my house.

12 Q. How can you say it is totally untrue?

13 A. Because you said it happened and I am telling you it

14 didn't happen, in my recollection.

15 Q. Then I suggest what happened is that you and your

16 brother Thomas decided to come up with a story about

17 what you remembered Allister wearing on the night. What

18 do you say about that?

19 A. That's totally untrue.

20 Q. So you now don't remember what he was wearing, you tell

21 us?

22 A. That's exactly right.

23 Q. And you don't remember these conversations with the

24 police?

25 A. I don't remember the conversation. You have to remember

1 this was 12 years ago and there was a lot of police in

2 and out of our house on the different times.

3 Q. Wasn't this a hugely significant matter for the

4 household?

5 A. A hugely significant matter for the household, yes.

6 Q. Wouldn't you have taken great care to understand what

7 was going on and what you might be able to do to help?

8 A. Not so sure what I could do to help.

9 Q. I suggest what you did try to do to help, and see what

10 you say to this, is to act on the telephone call you

11 received from Mr Atkinson and make sure the clothing was

12 destroyed. What do you say to that?

13 A. That's absolute nonsense.

14 Q. And then tell the police about the wrong clothing,

15 namely a black jacket.

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. Do you recall what jackets Allister owned?

18 A. I wouldn't have known what jackets he owned.

19 Q. So if you wouldn't have known, how could you have

20 recalled that he was wearing a black CAT jacket?

21 A. I don't recall it.

22 Q. How could you have told the police?

23 A. I don't recall telling the police that either.

24 Q. Have you come here today just to say you don't recall

25 anything in order to get out of telling the truth?

1 A. Could you say that again, please?

2 Q. Yes. Have you come here today to say that you don't

3 remember anything to get out of the telling the truth?

4 A. No, I did not, or have not.

5 MR UNDERWOOD: That is all the questions I ask, thank you.

6 Examination by MR FERGUSON

7 MR FERGUSON: Mr Hanvey, when the police came to see you,

8 you have told the Tribunal that it was your legal right

9 not to make a statement. Do you remember telling us

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Had you taken legal advice before anybody came to speak

13 to you about these matters?

14 A. Well, I would have known it was my legal right not to

15 make a statement anyway.

16 Q. You would have known that, in any event?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Without asking anyone?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you regard yourself as a law abiding citizen at this

21 time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And someone who would be anxious if they could to help

24 the police in their inquiries?

25 A. Yes, of course.

1 Q. Why then wouldn't you make a statement?

2 A. I didn't see the need to make a statement.

3 Q. You didn't see any need to help the police in the

4 questions, which they were asking you?

5 A. I didn't see any need to make a statement.

6 MR FERGUSON: I see. Not a question of trying to cover up

7 anything?

8 A. Certainly not.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Did it occur to you that perhaps the police

10 might be the better judges of whether there's something

11 you could say which might help them, which you didn't

12 understand?

13 A. Sorry?

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you think the police might know something

15 about what they wanted to know from you, even if you

16 didn't realise it might help?

17 A. I am not sure. I don't really understand your question.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, someone may ask me a question and I may

19 not understand why he is asking it.

20 A. Yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: But he may know something I don't and have

22 a reason for asking that question. Do you follow?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you wonder whether there was something

25 the police knew that you didn't that might be -- so that

1 it might help if you said what you could say.

2 A. I don't know if it even crossed my mind.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

4 Examination by MR McGRORY

5 MR McGRORY: Mr Hanvey, do you still work in Northern

6 Ireland Electricity?

7 A. No.

8 Q. But at the time of these events in the late 1990s, you

9 do. Isn't that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And you were a supervisor. Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Could you tell us what your working environment was

14 like? How many people worked with you and --

15 A. Our particular office, there would probably have been

16 a dozen people in it.

17 Q. A dozen people?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And were you the supervisor of the dozen people?

20 A. No. I was a supervisor of men who did the work on the

21 ground.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Putting up poles and putting electric into people's

24 houses. That sort of thing.

25 Q. And of those dozen people you worked with them on

1 a daily basis, you worked together in the one building?

2 A. Yes. Not all doing the same job, of course.

3 Q. Of course. Eleanor Atkinson was one of those people who

4 worked with you. Isn't that correct?

5 A. No. She worked in a different office.

6 Q. In a different building?

7 A. No, in a different office. Ours was a small office.

8 She worked in a larger office.

9 Q. But she worked in the same building?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And she also worked obviously for Northern Ireland

12 Electricity?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that you would have come

15 across her quite regularly in work?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And indeed she has told the Inquiry that she would have

18 daily contact with you in work?

19 A. Well, I wouldn't say it maybe was daily contact. Maybe

20 twice, three times a week, but not possibly daily

21 contact.

22 Q. But you would have regarded her as a colleague?

23 A. She is a work colleague, yes.

24 Q. And of course you are aware that she also knew your

25 wife. She was at school with your wife. Isn't that

1 correct?

2 A. I wouldn't be sure about that now. If she knew my wife,

3 but I wouldn't be sure she was at school with her. I

4 think my wife would be older than her.

5 Q. She has told the Inquiry that she knew your wife from

6 school.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. You wouldn't be in a position to contradict, obviously?

9 A. Certainly not, no.

10 Q. And of course your son was also very closely involved in

11 the Tae Kwon Do club?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. And as indeed was Robert Atkinson. Isn't that correct?

14 A. I wouldn't be sure what involvement he had in it.

15 I wouldn't know that.

16 Q. You see, Eleanor Atkinson has told the Inquiry that she

17 also knew your wife through the Tae Kwon Do club.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You wouldn't contradict that?

20 A. No, I can't contradict that because Elizabeth would have

21 been the one who brought Allister to Tae Kwon Do.

22 Q. And Eleanor Atkinson's daughter was also involved in the

23 Tae Kwon Do club. Were you aware of that?

24 A. Not so sure about that, no.

25 Q. Now, you knew Robbie Atkinson as well, did you not?

1 A. I knew Robert Atkinson because we played football

2 together at under 18 level.

3 Q. But you also knew he was a full-time Police Reservist?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And wouldn't it be fair to say though that your

6 relations with Robbie Atkinson wouldn't have been

7 100 per cent?

8 A. I wouldn't have spoken to Robert Atkinson maybe half

9 a dozen times from we played football together.

10 Q. But you were aware that Robert Atkinson in the course of

11 his duties as a Police Reservist would have been

12 involved in a number of incidents concerning the

13 policing of marches at the tunnel, isn't that correct?

14 A. That was the talk at the time, yes. I remember that

15 talk, yes.

16 Q. Well, I suggest to you it was more than talk, that you

17 knew that Robert Atkinson was involved in policing the

18 tunnel.

19 A. No, I heard it at the time that Robert Atkinson was

20 involved in policing at the tunnel.

21 Q. Let me put this in context, Mr Hanvey. Around about the

22 1990s, the mid-1990s, there was some controversy about

23 Orange marches through the tunnel; isn't that correct?

24 A. No, I think it was a lot earlier than that.

25 Q. Do you recall the time when there was controversy about

1 Orange marches through the tunnel?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And the nature of that controversy was that the Orange

4 had marched through the tunnel, but at a certain time

5 they had been stopped from marching through the tunnel?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that in Protestant and Unionist circles, that was

8 not a welcome development?

9 A. Yes, I would say that, yes.

10 Q. Would you have been one of those people who was critical

11 of the decision to stop the marches through the tunnel?

12 A. I wouldn't have been happy about it, no.

13 Q. And would it be fair to say that there were quite

14 a number of policemen from the Protestant community who

15 found themselves in the awkward position of having to

16 stop the marches going through the tunnel?

17 A. I wouldn't know that.

18 Q. You wouldn't know that?

19 A. I wouldn't know how many police from the Protestant

20 community would have been involved in that, no.

21 Q. You are a resident of the Portadown area; isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You would have been someone who would have supported the

25 view that the Orange should be allowed to march through

1 the tunnel?

2 A. That is correct, yes.

3 Q. And you would have been somebody who was unhappy that

4 the Orange had been stopped from marching through the

5 tunnel?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And you are saying that you are not somebody who would

8 have been critical of a Protestant policeman being one

9 of those who was stopping the marches going through the

10 tunnel?

11 A. No, I didn't say that.

12 Q. Okay. So are you one of those people who would have

13 been unhappy about a Protestant policeman stopping

14 marches going through the tunnel?

15 A. I wouldn't have been happy with any policeman stopping

16 the marches going through the tunnel.

17 Q. Yes. Were you aware that Robert Atkinson was one of

18 those policemen?

19 A. That was the talk at the time, yes.

20 Q. Well, were you --

21 A. Personally, I wasn't aware of it, but that was the talk

22 on the street.

23 Q. Are you sure you weren't aware of it?

24 A. I am positive, sure, I wouldn't be aware of it.

25 Q. Can I have page [58900] on the screen, please? Thank

1 you. About four lines down, Mr Hanvey, it says --

2 I will tell you what this document is. This is

3 a statement of a police inspector called Michael Irwin

4 recounting his conversation with you on 25

5 November 1997. Okay?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you understand that?

8 A. Yes, I understand that.

9 Q. In this statement he says there, in the fourth line:

10 "Kenneth Hanvey related that he had very little

11 dealings with Robert Atkinson following the blocking of

12 the 'Tunnel' by police."

13 Now, do you accept that you told Inspector Irwin

14 that?

15 A. I do not recall that statement. I don't even recall

16 Inspector Irwin being in my home.

17 Q. Well, do you accept that if Inspector Irwin says you

18 told him this, you told it to him?

19 A. You see, I can't remember telling him.

20 Q. That Inspector Irwin would have no reason, I am

21 suggesting to you, to invent you saying that you had

22 a problem with Atkinson because he policed the tunnel.

23 Can you think of any reason why Inspector Irwin would

24 make that up?

25 A. I don't even know who Inspector Irwin is.

1 Q. Doesn't it follow from that there would be no real

2 reason Inspector Irwin would put that in his statement

3 if you didn't tell him?

4 A. I can't answer that.

5 Q. Very well. Is it the fact that you had very little

6 dealings with Robert Atkinson because of his involvement

7 in blocking the tunnel?

8 A. Can you repeat that?

9 Q. Is it the case that you had little to do with

10 Robert Atkinson because he was involved in blocking the

11 tunnel?

12 A. I had virtually no dealings with Robert Atkinson because

13 I had hardly ever seen the fella, but the talk on the

14 street is Robert Atkinson was involved with the police

15 in blocking the tunnel, yes.

16 Q. Was it also the talk on the street that Robert Atkinson

17 had in fact identified people who were trying to march

18 through the tunnel?

19 A. I am not sure about that.

20 Q. That had resulted in those people going to court?

21 A. I have no idea.

22 Q. Well, do you see there, where Inspector Irwin says

23 that's what you said to him?

24 A. I see it there, but I don't recall that at all.

25 Q. Well, would a policeman who had identified people trying

1 to march -- trying to conduct an illegal march through

2 the tunnel be unpopular?

3 A. I would imagine so, yes.

4 Q. And he would be even more unpopular if he had identified

5 people and they were brought to court?

6 A. Yes, I could imagine that, yes.

7 Q. Would your concern about Robert Atkinson's conduct as

8 a policeman at the tunnel have strained relations

9 between you and Eleanor Atkinson by any chance?

10 A. Not at all. Not at all.

11 Q. She wouldn't have been aware that you weren't happy with

12 your husband?

13 A. Not at all. I wouldn't have been in the office at that

14 time anyway, so I had no contact with Eleanor.

15 Q. She said she had daily contact with you?

16 A. Yes, I said there now that I wasn't in the office at

17 that time, I would've been out working in the field.

18 I was in the office for the last ten years only of my

19 career at the Electric Board.

20 Q. But you accepted a little while ago to me that you had

21 regular contact with Eleanor Atkinson and you regarded

22 her as a colleague?

23 A. Yes, while I was in the office, but when I was out of

24 the office I never would have seen the girl, the last

25 ten years of my employment, and then I would have

1 regular contact with her.

2 Q. But do you accept from me, Mr Hanvey, that many, many

3 policemen and women came from within the Protestant

4 community in Portadown?

5 A. I wouldn't have known.

6 Q. Are you telling me that you are not aware that there

7 were many local people from within the Protestant

8 community who were in the police?

9 A. That is what I am telling you, yes. I wouldn't have

10 known who was in the police.

11 Q. Well, you have already accepted, have you not,

12 Mr Hanvey, that it would have been -- made a policeman

13 unpopular to have been involved in policing the tunnel?

14 A. I have accepted that, yes.

15 Q. It would follow from that that he is unpopular -- that

16 that would mean that he was unwelcome within the

17 community?

18 A. I wouldn't know about that now, whether he is unwelcome

19 or not.

20 Q. What I'm going to suggest to you, Mr Hanvey, is that

21 Robert Atkinson would have been very well aware of your

22 view of him as someone who did something against the

23 Protestant community.

24 A. I wouldn't know. I don't understand why he would be

25 aware of it.

1 Q. Well, because what you have told Inspector Irwin, I am

2 suggesting to you, is that you wouldn't really speak to

3 Robert Atkinson because of his conduct at the tunnel.

4 A. But I never would have seen Robert Atkinson to speak to

5 him anyway.

6 Q. Well, for some reason or other, I am suggesting to you,

7 you volunteered to Inspector Irwin that you had

8 a problem with Robert Atkinson?

9 A. I do not recall making that -- saying that.

10 Q. What I'm going to suggest to you, Mr Hanvey, is that one

11 way of getting back into your good books and improving

12 his name within the community would have been to help

13 out in respect of your son's difficulties?

14 A. I don't see how. I don't understand that at all.

15 I don't understand why you would think that. Why would

16 he have to get back into my good books?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is really a matter of comment,

18 isn't it?

19 MR McGRORY: Yes, sir. I take the matter no further.

20 I will take it up with Mr Atkinson. Thank you.

21 MS DINSMORE: No questions.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood then.

23 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go,

25 Mr Hanvey.

1 A. Thank you.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Elizabeth Hanvey now, please.

4 MRS ELIZABETH HANVEY (sworn)

5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mrs Hanvey.

7 A. Hello.

8 Q. My name is Underwood. I am counsel to the Inquiry.

9 I will ask questions to start with. Other people may

10 ask some others. May I ask you your full name, please?

11 A. Elizabeth Hanvey.

12 Q. Can I ask you, first of all, are you Allister's mother?

13 A. I am.

14 Q. And in April 1997 was Allister living at home with you

15 and your other boys?

16 A. He was, yes.

17 Q. You know that this Inquiry concerns events which

18 happened on the night of 27 April 1997 --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- amongst other things, and I imagine you are aware by

21 now at least that on that occasion Robert Hamill was

22 beaten, as a result of which he died on 8 May 1997?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can I ask you when you were first aware that there had

25 been any such event on 27 April?

1 A. I can't remember that there.

2 Q. We know that on the night of 26/27 April, Allister

3 Hanvey was away from home. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes, he was out.

5 Q. And do you recall him coming home on the 27th?

6 A. When was the 27th?

7 Q. That was a Sunday?

8 A. It was on a Sunday? His father picked him up.

9 Q. You remember that, do you?

10 A. His father picked him up.

11 Q. How do you know that?

12 A. Because he picked him up at his Uncle Tom's house every

13 Sunday.

14 Q. He just told us the opposite. He just told us that he

15 would only pick him up from there if he was there, not

16 every Sunday. What do you say to that?

17 A. Well, my husband would have picked him up most Sundays

18 at it, so he would, because Allister would have stayed

19 there because he knew that I didn't really like him

20 drinking or his dad didn't really like him drinking, and

21 he wouldn't have come home, he would've stopped over

22 there.

23 Q. Do you remember what Allister was wearing when he came

24 home?

25 A. I haven't got a clue.

1 Q. We know that a telephone call was made on your house at

2 8.37 or so on the morning of 27 April from Mr Atkinson's

3 home. What do you know about that?

4 A. I don't remember any telephone calls.

5 Q. And there's reason to believe that what that telephone

6 call was about was a warning, telling somebody in your

7 household, probably your husband, that Allister had been

8 involved in the fight the night before and that he

9 needed to get rid of his clothing. What do you say

10 about that?

11 A. I don't remember any of that. This was a long time ago.

12 Q. Were you in the habit of receiving phone calls warning

13 you that your son had been in a fight and needed to get

14 rid of his clothing?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So if that had happened, you would remember it?

17 A. I never remember any phone calls.

18 Q. Why are you telling us you don't remember it when

19 a phone call like that would have been so hugely

20 significant that you are bound to remember it if it

21 happened?

22 A. I don't remember any phone calls. This is going back

23 over 12 years ago.

24 Q. Have you decided to answer questions you think are

25 dangerous by telling us you don't remember?

1 A. No, I am not. I am telling you the truth. I don't

2 remember any of those things.

3 Q. And do you remember burning any of his clothes?

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 Q. Do you remember what jackets he owned in early 1997?

6 A. I can't remember that now.

7 Q. Do you remember him being arrested for murder?

8 A. I remember them coming and lifting him at the house.

9 Q. Did you know what that was about?

10 A. I didn't really know at the time, so I didn't.

11 Q. When did you find out that he had been arrested for

12 murder, in relation to him being lifted?

13 A. They come to the house and they lifted him out of the

14 house, so they did, and after they took him out of the

15 house, I just went to pieces, and I can't remember when

16 I realised what it was all about.

17 Q. How did you find out what it was all about? Who told

18 you?

19 A. I can't even remember that, and that is the honest to

20 goodness truth because I didn't want to talk about it.

21 I didn't want anybody to talk about it in the house

22 because it really, really annoyed me. I went to pieces,

23 so I did, and I forbid any of it to be spoke about in

24 the house, and my husband, he dealt with everything for

25 me because I was in pieces.

1 Q. Did you visit Allister while he was in prison?

2 A. I did, yes.

3 Q. Did you talk about why he was there?

4 A. Absolutely not. I was just so glad to see my son, to

5 give him a kiss, to hug him, and just talked about

6 family things and didn't want to discuss anything.

7 Q. If we look at page [17361], please, if we highlight the

8 text, this is a witness statement of somebody called

9 Paul McCrumlish, who is a police constable who made this

10 statement much later in 2000. What he says is:

11 "I am a Detective Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary

12 presently attached to CID South Region. On Sunday 11/5/97 ..."

13 That is the day after your son was arrested:

14 "... accompanied by DC McIntosh I called at the home

15 of Mr Kenneth George Hanvey. There we spoke to

16 Mr Kenneth and Mrs Elizabeth Hanvey. We questioned them

17 as to the involvement of their son Allister on 26/4/97.

18 They related how Allister left home after

19 tea and went into town. He was wearing blue jeans,

20 trainers and T-shirt (no colour available), black

21 coloured padded jacket, all the one colour, CAT type.

22 Asked when they had first heard of the fight, they stated

23 Kenneth and wife had got out of bed around 9 am on

24 27/4/97. He (Kenneth) went and fed cattle and wife

25 made breakfast. Kenneth then went to his brother

1 Thomas's house and spoke to Allister who informed him of

2 the fight."

3 Stopping there, were you in a sufficiently robust

4 state to be having that conversation then on the 11th?

5 A. I really, really don't know because I can't remember.

6 I can't even remember this statement here, so I can't.

7 I know my husband went to Thomas's house.

8 Q. And according to this, you were able to tell the police,

9 the day after your son had been arrested, what he had

10 been wearing three weeks before?

11 A. To tell the truth, I can't even remember the police

12 coming to the house because there was that many about at

13 the time, you know, coming to the house, to and fro-ing,

14 and I can't remember, you know, that particular incident

15 there.

16 Q. Now, this event, the day after your son was arrested --

17 MR McCOMB: I am sorry. One matter arising out of that.

18 I understand what my friend is asking. When one looks

19 at the statement, it says "they related". So it was the

20 officer speaking to Mr and Mrs Hanvey. He doesn't

21 distinguish which one it was. It may be that Mr Hanvey

22 was doing all the relation and that Mrs Hanvey was not

23 saying anything. It is not clear from that that it

24 necessarily follows that Mrs Hanvey said anything which

25 is reported here.

1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Underwood will be able to ask the witness

2 if she remembers who said what.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Absolutely. Mrs Hanvey has already told us

4 she can't remember the officers coming, so we will have

5 to ask the officers about this when we get to them.

6 So this is the day after your son is arrested. You

7 say you were very upset by his arrest. Two police

8 officers come to the home and start asking you and your

9 husband questions about it. Was there no conversation

10 about why he had been taken away?

11 A. No, not that I can think of.

12 Q. You didn't ask them what on earth they were doing,

13 arresting your son?

14 A. As I tell you, I can't remember these police officers

15 coming to my house and having this conversation. There

16 was loads of police officers came to my house at this

17 time. They were to-ing and fro-ing all the time.

18 Q. Wouldn't you have been very concerned to find out what

19 was going on with your son?

20 A. I was in the position that my mind was just everywhere.

21 I was sick. I -- it actually put me that my nerves went

22 over the head of it, and was attending my doctor, and

23 I just didn't want anything to do or hear about it.

24 I refused to talk about it in the house and I left it

25 with my husband to deal with it all because I just

1 couldn't cope with any of it, so I couldn't.

2 Q. Did he cope with it?

3 A. Sorry?

4 Q. Did your husband take on the burden?

5 A. He took on the burden and he carried it through.

6 Q. So he didn't have just to look after your son; he had to

7 look after you and make this all right?

8 A. He looked after me and he said he would deal with it,

9 and I just didn't know how to handle it or what to do.

10 Q. Is your husband a coping sort of man?

11 A. Well, he would cope a bit better than me, you know.

12 I'm -- I wouldn't be a coper.

13 Q. Is he a man who would do whatever it takes to look after

14 you and his son?

15 A. Well, he would look after us, yes.

16 Q. Including lying to the police?

17 A. No, he would never lie. He would never lie to the

18 police, never.

19 Q. Would he refuse to help the police?

20 A. Well, he would help them to a certain extent. If he had

21 to help them, you know, he would help.

22 Q. If he is forced to help them, he would help them, but

23 nothing short of that?

24 A. He would help the police if he needed to help them.

25 Q. He refused to make a statement. Do you know why?

1 A. He didn't make any statements or sign any statements

2 because it was on the advice of our solicitor.

3 Q. He's just told us the opposite. You remember that, do

4 you?

5 A. Sorry, what?

6 Q. He just told us the opposite. He told us he did not

7 have the advice of a solicitor when he refused to make

8 a statement. He was specifically asked that and he

9 specifically denied it. But you remember it, did you?

10 A. Well, I would say that on the advice of solicitors we

11 didn't make any statements. I don't know. I can't

12 remember.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McComb?

14 MR McCOMB: I think the question may be framed in such a way

15 that the context of time isn't correct. Mr Hanvey said

16 that he didn't sign his statement or didn't make

17 a statement, rather, to the police. Other statements --

18 and this may be confusing this witness -- may or may not

19 have been signed, and that is a separate matter,

20 a discrete matter altogether.

21 MR UNDERWOOD: No doubt you will recall the

22 cross-examination by my friend Mr Ferguson.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

24 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's look further down this document,

25 please, Mrs Hanvey. I have already read to you the part

1 down to Kenneth going to Thomas's house and speaking to

2 Allister. It goes on:

3 "Mr Hanvey further related how Allister had told him

4 that he had helped police to keep the crowd back and

5 Mr Kenneth Hanvey suggested that this policeman would be

6 giving evidence on behalf of Allister Hanvey."

7 Why on earth would you not be helping the police to

8 clear your son by giving them details of that?

9 A. I didn't know -- I don't know anything about this here.

10 I never heard of this here.

11 Q. Well, they are saying that you were present during this

12 conversation?

13 A. But I don't remember these policemen coming to my house

14 or remember this here.

15 Q. If you or your son or your husband had information which

16 would help clear him because in fact he was helping the

17 police, not murdering somebody, would you have told the

18 police that?

19 A. As I'm telling you here, I don't even remember these

20 policemen coming to my house and having this

21 conversation here, so I don't.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much.

23 Examination by MR O'HARE

24 MR O'HARE: Just one matter. In 1997 did you know either

25 Detective Constables McCrumlish or McIntosh?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Who was your husband's solicitor?

3 A. Mr Richard Monteith.

4 MR O'HARE: Thank you.

5 Examination by MR MCGRORY

6 MR McGRORY: I would ask some questions on behalf of the

7 Hamill family.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Did you know Eleanor Atkinson?

10 A. I knew of her. I didn't know her really. I mean, we

11 grew up as children, you know, in the area, you know.

12 Q. She has told the Inquiry she knew you through school.

13 A. Yes. We would have grew up through school and, you

14 know, just that there, you know. School friends sort of

15 thing, you know, but never come to anything.

16 Q. Of course you were mothers together as well in the

17 connection with the Tae Kwon Do club. Isn't that

18 correct?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. And your son Allister, we have heard already, was a very

21 enthusiastic participant in Tae Kwon Do?

22 A. Yes, he enjoyed his Tae Kwon Do, yes.

23 Q. And Eleanor Atkinson had a daughter, I believe, involved

24 in the Tae Kwon Do club as well?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you were aware too, of course, that your husband

2 worked with Eleanor Atkinson. Isn't that correct?

3 A. I didn't really know that Kenny worked with Eleanor

4 until one time he said that she worked in the same

5 office. You know, I can't even remember when that was.

6 I really didn't know. He never talked about his work or

7 who worked with him, you know.

8 Q. Now, can I just ask you about your son's childhood?

9 Obviously, as a mother, you would have taken a great

10 interest in his friends and his schooling and his

11 activities like Tae Kwon Do and so forth?

12 A. Well, I would have brought him into the Tae Kwon Do and

13 dropped him off and then picked him up again.

14 Q. And you would remember, of course, who his friends were?

15 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't know who all

16 Allister's friends were because there was many and they

17 come and went. But they didn't frequent my house. Only

18 of an odd time it would have been a couple come in. He

19 only ever had one friend that I could say was a really

20 true friend to him, and that lad died, you know, and

21 that was his only true friend. There were friends, but

22 I never knew who they were, you know.

23 Q. So are you saying that you cannot recall the name of

24 a single friend, other than this one who died, of your

25 son's?

1 A. Because I tell you why I couldn't recall it. They call

2 all these people by different names and I don't know who

3 they were.

4 Q. Can you recall their nicknames?

5 A. They give them nicknames and I don't know who they are,

6 and I couldn't even tell you what they looked like, so

7 I couldn't.

8 Q. You see, you were asked by the Inquiry if certain people

9 were friends of Allister's.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember that?

12 A. I remember that there, them asking me had he certain

13 friends, and I told them that I couldn't even remember

14 or tell you who Allister's friends were, only this one

15 lad that he was friendly with through school and he died

16 when he was 12 or 13, you know, and he was a true

17 friend. Allister and him were true friends.

18 Q. I have to suggest to you, Mrs Hanvey, that it is

19 inconceivable that a mother cannot remember the names of

20 her child's friends.

21 A. Well, I honestly could tell you here and now that

22 I couldn't tell you the name of Allister's friends.

23 Q. Have you been advised, Mrs -- let's put it this way.

24 Have you come here today deliberately, Mrs Hanvey, to

25 say you can remember nothing?

1 A. Absolutely not. I didn't come here to say that I knew

2 nothing.

3 MR McGRORY: Thank you very much.

4 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chair.

5 MR McCOMB: No questions.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood?

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs Hanvey. You are free now to

9 go.

10 A. Thank you.

11 (The witness withdrew)

12 MR UNDERWOOD: I understand there will be about a 15-minute

13 gap before the next witness is available. May I ask for

14 a break then?

15 THE CHAIRMAN: We will rise.

16 (11.17 am)

17 (A short break)

18 (11.43 am)

19 MR UNDERWOOD: May I call Glynnis Finnegan?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course.

21 MS GLYNNIS FINNEGAN (sworn)

22 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

23 MR UNDERWOOD: Can you tell us your full names, please?

24 A. Glynnis Violet Finnegan.

25 Q. Is it Miss or Mrs Finnegan?

1 A. Miss.

2 Q. My name is Underwood, I will be asking questions on

3 behalf of the Inquiry. Some other people may ask

4 questions afterwards. I only want to ask you about one

5 matter, and quite briefly.

6 Before I do, can we go to page [81600]? If we

7 scroll through this, perhaps you can have a look at the

8 pages as they come up, briefly. Is this a witness

9 statement that you made for the Inquiry?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you signed it, in fact?

12 A. I did, yes.

13 Q. Is it true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. As I say, the one matter I want to ask you

16 about is some telephone calls, and can we have a look at

17 page [01533]? If we could highlight the text that's

18 numbered. Thank you.

19 Now, we know, because we have heard evidence about

20 it, that on 10 April 2001 Andrea McKee was interviewed

21 under caution for the first time about an account she

22 had given in October 1997, in relation to a phone call

23 made from a home belonging to Mr and Mrs Atkinson to

24 a home belonging to a Mr and Mrs Hanvey.

25 Although she had been interviewed about it before

1 April 2001, 10 April 2001 was the first occasion when

2 she was treated as a suspect in relation to a crime

3 about that. Do you follow me?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what we know from this is that on that day she made

6 phone calls, or you and she had telephone conversations,

7 and I want to take you through them for a moment, and

8 what I am going to ask you about in the end is whether

9 she said anything to you, which led you to believe she

10 was lying to the police on 10 April 2001. That's all

11 I am concerned about.

12 Let's have a look at these calls for the moment.

13 What we get at number 4 there is Andrea McKee's mobile

14 phone rings your home number at 3.29 pm, an hour and

15 a minute later, Andrea McKee attends

16 Wrexham Police Station at 4.30, and then if we go to 7:

17 "Andrea McKee left Wrexham Police Station with her

18 solicitor at approximately 8 pm."

19 And then if we look at number 9:

20 "Andrea McKee home phone contacts the Finnegan home

21 phone 9.04 pm, duration of call 39 minutes 51 seconds."

22 What we see there then is she goes to the police

23 station at 4.30, she comes out at 8 o'clock. At 9.04

24 she then has a phone call, almost 40 minutes long with

25 you.

1 Can I ask you, first of all, did that phone

2 conversation involve what she had just been doing?

3 A. Possibly, briefly.

4 Q. Did she give you any reason to believe that when she had

5 been interviewed by the police on that day she had lied

6 about the telephone call?

7 A. No, she didn't lie the second time. She realised,

8 I think, that she had been wrong.

9 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask you about. It

10 may well be other people have some questions for you.

11 Examination by MR McGRORY

12 MR McGRORY: Just one matter.

13 Miss Finnegan, you mentioned to the Inquiry in your

14 statement about the relationship between the Atkinsons

15 and Michael McKee, and in particular that there was

16 a sort of an overpowering relationship between

17 Robert Atkinson and Michael McKee. Could you tell us

18 a little bit about that, please? Do you remember saying

19 that?

20 A. I can't really recall offhand, I'm sorry, but it was

21 just in my opinion that maybe that was the case. He did

22 always -- well, in my judgment of characters, he did

23 seem to be a little more overpowering.

24 MR McGRORY: Yes, thank you very much.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Mallon.

1 Examined by MR MALLON

2 MR MALLON: Did she discuss with you whether she was going

3 to plead not guilty or guilty to the charge when she was

4 arraigned on the perjury charge -- sorry, the perversion

5 of the course of justice?

6 A. Could you just ask me that again, please?

7 Q. Certainly. When she was back for trial in Northern

8 Ireland, were you in contact with her?

9 A. I can't really remember. But, you know, the contact --

10 I do remember her being regretful over what happened.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. And she knew that she was wrong and she knew that she

13 was going to be punished.

14 Q. Then do you know whether she pleaded guilty or not

15 guilty to that offence on arraignment?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's language the witness may not

17 understand. Can I see if I can help?

18 Did Andrea McKee talk to you about the fact that she

19 was facing a prosecution?

20 A. Yes, she did make me aware that she was in trouble.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Did she tell you whether she was going to

22 plead guilty or fight the case?

23 A. No, she wasn't going to fight it because she was in the

24 wrong.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's what you were asking, isn't

1 it, Mr Mallon?

2 MR MALLON: Yes, indeed, thank you.

3 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you.

4 Miss Finnegan, thank you very much.

5 A. Thank you.

6 (The witness withdrew)

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Would you forgive me a moment?

8 Sir, the next group of witnesses I'm going to call

9 are in a different section, and so it falls to me to

10 explain what's going on with those. I regret that

11 I haven't given people advance copies of what I'm about

12 to say, but to be frank, what I'm about to say has been

13 somewhat bowdlerised by the fact that Detective

14 Constable Honeyford has already given evidence, so much

15 of what I needed to explain has leaked out in the course

16 of evidence anyway.

17 This next group of witnesses is quite a large one,

18 and what they have in common is that they were in the

19 town centre during the violence and they are not police

20 officers.

21 Understandably, they give a very large variety of

22 accounts of what happened and what they saw, and that

23 makes it rather difficult to divide them into

24 sub-groups, not least because person A may have been

25 with person B at 1.30 and then with person C at 1.35,

1 et cetera. So there's a moving coalition of witnesses,

2 as it were.

3 What I will endeavour to do is call them in an order

4 to enable you to see, as it were, the sub-groups as

5 close together as possible, so you can cross-refer

6 witnesses as they come up. I hope that these witnesses

7 will assist you in relation to a number of issues.

8 Firstly, they may shed light on the sequence of

9 events concerning the outbreak of the violence, which is

10 obviously relevant to the question: could the Land Rover

11 crew have prevented it taking place?

12 Secondly, they may help you determine when the

13 police officers actually got out of the Land Rover and

14 what they did when they did.

15 Thirdly, this group may enable you to know what, if

16 anything, Mr Atkinson saw Allister Hanvey do, and of

17 course that may assist in the question whether

18 Mr Atkinson did then go on to obstruct the

19 investigation.

20 Finally then, what this group of witnesses may

21 assist you to do is to understand what the murder

22 investigation was capable of uncovering, had it got to

23 the right witnesses and had the witnesses co-operated.

24 The group includes people such as Timothy Jameson,

25 of whom you have heard in the course of Mr Honeyford's

1 evidence, and indeed it includes Jonathan Wright, again

2 of whom you have heard in the course of Mr Honeyford's

3 evidence. So the evidence which the group may be able

4 to assist you on may well include what it was

5 Allister Hanvey was wearing on the night.

6 The group will also include the ambulance crew, who

7 of course attended in the middle of the events, as it

8 were, and their evidence in its context, as you also

9 know, helps somewhat in setting the timing because we

10 have the automatic timing devices triggered by them

11 which form the records of the ambulance service.

12 Having said that there is a great variety of

13 accounts in this, it wouldn't help if I gave any detail

14 at all, I think, at this stage. But extremely broadly,

15 what I think you will hear is that the groups of

16 Protestant witnesses came from different directions.

17 One group came from the area marked A on the map we have

18 got on the screen, or the area A, B, C we have on the

19 screen, where they were dropped by the bus from the

20 Coach Inn, and another group came down from the opposite

21 direction, from West Street.

22 The ones who came on the bus appear to have come up

23 the road in dribs and drabs, and some stopped for food,

24 some seem to have walked straight home, or towards home,

25 without stopping for food. And it follows from that

1 that their arrival at the scene covers quite

2 a timescale. And it may well be that some of those that

3 we call, as it were, got through the town entirely

4 before anything happened, but may be able to assist you

5 with the placing of the Land Rover. Others may have

6 arrived after the critical events. Others are likely to

7 have been there during it.

8 In this group, we will be calling David Woods,

9 Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes, Andrew Allen,

10 Rory Robinson, Jonathan Wright, and Allister Hanvey.

11 Having said that, I am going to attempt to call them

12 in as much as I can do the groups that they actually

13 were in. I'm going to leave until last those witnesses

14 against whom allegations have been made, so they can

15 have the best possible opportunity through their legal

16 teams of assessing what it is that's said against them,

17 before they have to give their evidence.

18 There's one other matter before I get to calling any

19 of them, which is that after the violence on the night,

20 a number of people grouped at a house belonging to

21 Tracy McAlpine, and there is some reason to believe that

22 Allister Hanvey was amongst those. It's also right that

23 violence appears to have been a topic of the

24 conversations there. The significance of that gathering

25 is perhaps twofold.

1 The first thing is that if he was there and remained

2 there for any significant length of time, then the alibi

3 which was given to the police that he was at Thomas

4 Hanvey's house by 3 o'clock, or 3.30 or so is likely to

5 have been false, which in turn is likely to shed some

6 light on the question whether there was obstruction.

7 The second significance of the presence at that

8 gathering of Mr Hanvey is that a number of people are

9 likely to have seen what he was wearing. We will come,

10 when we see the investigative stages of this, to the

11 question what the police did to try to break the alibi

12 and to discern what it was might have happened to his

13 clothes.

14 And we have already seen that no steps were taken in

15 1997 to interview those partygoers, with a view to

16 seeing what they had to say about what Allister Hanvey

17 was wearing on the night.

18 I anticipate this group of witnesses will be called

19 over the course of the next three or four working weeks.

20 The first of them is going to be Timothy Jameson. We

21 have him set to come at 2 o'clock. We have, as always,

22 got through witnesses more efficiently, than

23 I anticipated, at least. So on that, perhaps I can ask

24 for a break now until 2 o'clock.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

1 (12.01 pm)

2 (The short adjournment)

3 (1.55 pm)

4 MR UNDERWOOD: I call Timothy Jameson, please.

5 MR TIMOTHY JAMESON (sworn)

6 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon, Mr Jameson. Can I ask you

8 your full names, please?

9 A. Yes, it's Robert Timothy Jameson.

10 Q. I think you might need to either move closer to the microphone

11 or move the microphone closer to you.

12 I know you have been interviewed by the Inquiry.

13 Can I just tell you what the Inquiry is about before

14 I ask you any questions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It has a set terms of reference, which primarily concern

17 the RUC. They also include some other bodies, but we

18 are not troubled about that for the moment. There are,

19 essentially, two issues in those terms of reference.

20 The first is whether four police officers in the

21 Land Rover could and should have done anything to

22 protect Robert Hamill from being killed, and the second

23 is whether anybody within the RUC, or the RUC itself,

24 did anything wrong in the investigation of the murder.

25 So do you understand then that what we are doing is

1 not concerned with trying to find out who did it. We

2 are concerned about how the RUC responded to the

3 situation and to the investigation afterwards. That's

4 the principal set of objectives for the Inquiry. I want

5 you to appreciate that evidence you give here is to be

6 directed to those issues, not to whether anybody that

7 you saw commited a murder.

8 A. I understand.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, I ask you to look, first of all, at

10 page [70865], which will come up on the screen. This is

11 a questionnaire. It is a standard form, and you

12 certainly wouldn't have seen it in this form because

13 this has been typed up.

14 What happened was that after Robert Hamill died, in

15 fact after the assault, police officers were given

16 a standard form which had questions printed on and gaps

17 left for answers, and the police officers went round and

18 interviewed anybody whose name cropped up to see whether

19 they could ask them these questions to see whether they

20 could get information from them, which would lead to

21 further lines of enquiry.

22 They filled them in when they interviewed people,

23 and they were then typed up. What we see here is the

24 typed-up version of the one that was administered to

25 you, which we see was done on 29 April 1997 at 9 o'clock

1 in the evening.

2 And you can see, if you read the questions there,

3 you have been identified as being present at

4 Market Street Portadown on 27 April 1997 at around the

5 time of a serious assault:

6 "Where were you coming from? (Details)."

7 What is next is the answer they have given for you:

8 "Got off bus about 1.40 am, went up the street to

9 Boss Hoggs. Came out of Boss Hoggs, stood at

10 Wellworths, looked up street, saw police Land Rover

11 beside Halifax Building Society, observed large crowd."

12 Now, with the aid of that, for the moment, can I ask

13 you what your recollection is of the time that you were

14 walking up the street, who you were with, and what you

15 saw. Taking it from the start, can you help us with the

16 time?

17 A. I can't really remember the time, but the bus generally

18 got in at that time, 1.40 am.

19 Q. Can you remember, was it a set time it left the

20 Coach Inn every Saturday, or was it just leaving when it

21 filled up?

22 A. Usually about 1.15.

23 Q. So there's about 20-odd minutes' journey, is there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you got off the coach, were you, as it were, the

1 first out of the traps or in the middle of a group of

2 people walking up? Can you remember?

3 A. No, I can't remember.

4 Q. We've obviously, as you know, taken statements and

5 interviewed other people, and what the Inquiry's

6 understanding is is that Kyle Magee, Stephen Bloomer and

7 Jennifer O'Neill all walked up at about the same time as

8 you, more or less with you. Do you accept that? Do you

9 recall it?

10 A. I know Kyle and Stephen, but I don't know who

11 Jennifer O'Neill is.

12 Q. You mention Kyle Magee at the bottom of this. Do you

13 remember Stephen Bloomer being with you at the time?

14 A. He usually was. I can't remember exactly.

15 Q. Okay. Can you recall the atmosphere as you were walking

16 up from when you were dropped?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember, were you chatting away or were you

19 looking around you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Any such recall?

22 A. No, sorry.

23 Q. You tell us you saw the police Land Rover. Do you

24 remember where it was?

25 A. I don't remember the police Land Rover, no.

1 Q. If I show you pictures or scenes of it, would that help

2 you recall, do you think?

3 A. I could try. I don't think so.

4 Q. If we have a look at the standard model. We've got very

5 impressive technology, Mr Jameson. It doesn't

6 necessarily represent what was there on the evening, and

7 this is what we want to put to witnesses to get their

8 impression of it.

9 What we are looking at here is -- if we pan this

10 round to the right, stop it there for a minute, you can

11 see looking along the High Street there, from the

12 junction of Thomas Street and the main street, and you

13 would have been coming up from the end of the main

14 High Street there, as we see it. We have put a model of

15 a Land Rover there at the entrance to Woodhouse Street.

16 Does that help you with your recollection?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Then as you came up, going back to page [70865], if we

19 can, you say that you saw the police Land Rover beside

20 the Halifax Building Society, observed large crowd. Can

21 you tell us about the crowd, where it was; how large is

22 a large crowd, in your view?

23 A. I don't know. I can't remember exactly.

24 Q. Do you remember this interview?

25 A. Not really, no, to be honest.

1 Q. Can you help us with what your idea of a large crowd

2 would have been in 1997? A dozen people, 50?

3 A. Probably everyone who got off the bus, 50, 60 people.

4 Q. If we go over the page, [70866], the next question is:

5 "Who else was in the vicinity?"

6 And then there is a direction to the officer taking

7 it, described the location in relation to themselves and

8 their account of movement through town centre.

9 Then we get your answer:

10 "Walked up middle of town, stood at church, observed

11 people moving around after each other down the town

12 centre."

13 We know that the church is -- thinking back to that

14 model we have just looked at -- round to the left?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what this has you doing is seeing a crowd, walking up

17 to the church area, and standing at the church area,

18 observing people moving around after each other in the

19 centre.

20 With the aid of that, doing the best you can at

21 recalling, can you tell us what the crowd were doing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you see -- hear anything, do you recall?

24 A. I can't remember, no.

25 Q. Did you see any fighting?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you sure about that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you see any police officers?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You see, we know there was a fight, or at least an

7 attack. We know that at some point police officers got

8 out of the Land Rover, and we know other police cars

9 turned up and we know an ambulance turned up. Are you

10 saying that none of that happened while you were there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you clear about that?

13 A. I never seen it.

14 Q. Kyle Magee and Stephen Bloomer do tell us that they saw

15 at least some of that, and is it possible then that you

16 did see this and you now don't want to recall it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can we have a look at the witness statement that you

19 gave to the police then? It's at page [00266]. I want

20 to ask you about this in parts. Firstly, what I want to

21 do is ask you about parts of it that contain some detail

22 that don't involve the fight, and I want to ask you

23 about the correctness of that detail.

24 It says that on Saturday night 26 April 1997 you

25 went to the disco at the Coach Inn, Banbridge. You went

1 in the bus from Portadown and got the bus home again.

2 All of that is true, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The bus left the Coach about 1.15 and got into Portadown

5 about 1.40; again, that is true, isn't it?

6 A. Sounds right.

7 Q. You came home on the bus with two mates, Stephen Bloomer

8 and Kyle Magee, and from what you have kindly just told

9 us, that sounds accurate; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. When you got off the bus in Portadown, at Herrons

12 Country Fried Chicken, you stood about at the bottom of

13 town for about five minutes to see if there were any

14 parties on anywhere. Obviously, you haven't told us

15 about that before. Is that right?

16 A. I can't remember now, but it was normal to hang about to

17 see if there was anywhere to go.

18 Q. Then the three of us walked up the street to Boss Hoggs.

19 Again, that is what you had already put in your

20 questionnaire. So that's right, is it?

21 A. I don't actually remember going into Boss Hoggs.

22 Q. You say in the statement there you went in on your own

23 to get a chip and a tin of coke, got that, and went to

24 Wellworths and stood there with Stephen Bloomer and

25 Kyle Magee. Again, is that the thing you are likely to

1 have done?

2 A. Could have been, yes.

3 Q. And then you give detail about a fellow called McClure

4 standing there with his girlfriend. You don't know his

5 first name, but he played football for Hanover and you

6 said "hello" to him. Did that happen?

7 A. I can't think now of anyone called McClure that I know.

8 I don't remember that.

9 Q. All right. You say you stood there with two mates for

10 the bus. This is the second bus coming from Banbridge,

11 waiting to meet Tom Quinn. Was there a second bus in

12 fact? Is that what happened?

13 A. I am not too sure if there was a second bus or not.

14 Q. Did you have a mate called Tom Quinn?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you recall now whether he was likely to have turned

17 up on the second bus?

18 A. No, I don't know if Tom got the bus or not.

19 Q. Okay. You say there that you were talking to him on the

20 bus going over. Are you now telling us you can't

21 remember that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Then the final couple of lines, you say you

24 decided not to wait for that bus, to walk up the town,

25 and all started to walk up. If we go over the page,

1 Stephen Bloomer is in front and Kyle followed behind.

2 Now, just think about that for the minute. Have you

3 any reason to think that was inaccurate or untrue?

4 A. Well, all that I can't actually remember it happened or

5 who walked up with, but if Kyle and Steven are saying

6 it, then...

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you trying to tell the police what you

8 knew when you made this statement?

9 A. Excuse me?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you trying when you made this statement

11 to tell the police what you knew and had seen?

12 A. When I made the statement?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

14 A. This is the statement that I don't agree with. This is

15 the statement that --

16 THE CHAIRMAN: It's the statement you are being asked about

17 now.

18 A. Yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you trying to tell the police what you

20 knew and had seen?

21 A. No.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's carry on looking at it, to see which

23 parts of it are true and that you accept. If we look at

24 page [00268], the last third of it. This is after

25 a passage in here that I'm going to take you back to,

1 which talks about a fight. Four lines down, starting on

2 the right-hand side:

3 "I got up the street a few yards and I dropped my

4 chips. I bent over to pick them up and I saw a dark

5 coloured police car coming up the street. It was going

6 fast and stopped opposite Thomas Street."

7 Now, the Panel may be wondering if this statement

8 wasn't you trying to tell the truth to the police, why

9 it would include detail like you dropping a bag of

10 chips. Can you help us with that?

11 A. Well, I don't remember dropping my chips. I don't

12 remember having chips.

13 Q. Okay. But you had already said in your questionnaire

14 that you had been to Boss Hoggs, so the likelihood is

15 you would have had some chips, wouldn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So I'm interested here in this dark coloured police car

18 coming up the street, going fast and stopped opposite

19 Thomas Street, and you saw about three police get out

20 there.

21 Again, can you help us about how that detail would

22 have got in there? Was that right? Did you, at the

23 time, remember a dark coloured police car coming up?

24 A. I don't remember seeing any police at all on the night.

25 Q. Then if we go over the page, you say at the start there:

1 "I turned around and started to walk towards the

2 church. The police started moving the crowd up the

3 street and a second police car arrived and parked behind

4 the first one. Police got out of the car and I noticed

5 R/Constable Atkinson, one of the policemen, was

6 carrying a rubber bullet gun."

7 Did you know Reserve Constable Atkinson?

8 A. Yes, he used to be an escort for my father.

9 Q. Did you tell the officer who was taking this statement

10 that you saw Reserve Constable Atkinson?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you explain why the police officer who took this

13 statement would have put Atkinson's name in there unless

14 he knew that you knew Mr Atkinson?

15 A. Well, we had -- unless he knew that Atkinson had been

16 an escort for my father, I don't know.

17 Q. You see, if I understand you, when you answered the

18 chairman, you weren't trying to tell the police what you

19 saw here, but the officer who is taking this statement

20 has put in the name of a police officer you happened to

21 know. Now, how did he know that you knew that officer?

22 Do you know that?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. Let's go back then to page [00267]. If we highlight all

25 of this.

1 You describe here at length, and in detail the

2 fighting and you name names. So picking it up from

3 about six lines down, there's somebody called Marc, he

4 is also called Muck. Did you know somebody called Marc,

5 who was also known as Muck?

6 A. I knew someone called Muck. I didn't know his name was

7 Marc.

8 Q. Going over the page, and again let's highlight all of

9 it, you say at the end of the first line, Rory, that's

10 Rory Robinson, is described in here, "was hitting

11 somebody with his fists. I couldn't see who he was

12 fighting with." And you describe what Rory was wearing.

13 Did you know Rory Robinson?

14 A. I knew him to see. I wasn't a friend of his.

15 Q. Okay. Then about four or five lines down, you say you

16 saw Allister Hanvey. Again, is that a name you knew?

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. And then if we go down more or less in the middle, this

19 line which starts "Portadown", and you say of somebody,

20 "He is called 'Fonzy'". Again, did you know of somebody

21 called Fonzy?

22 A. I knew of a Fonzy, but he had blond hair, the Fonzy that

23 I know.

24 Q. Okay. Then about three lines from the bottom, you talk

25 about Dean Forbes. Again, did you know a Dean Forbes?

1 A. I would have knew Dean, yes. I wouldn't have been

2 friends with him. I just knew them.

3 Q. I'm just asking whether you knew the names. Then if we

4 go to page [00269], again, if we can highlight all of

5 it, pretty much in the middle of that, you say:

6 "I saw Stacey Bridgett."

7 Again, is that a name you knew?

8 A. It is, yes.

9 Q. About four lines from the bottom, you say:

10 "I also observed Vicky Clayton in the crowd."

11 Again, is that a name you knew?

12 A. I don't know if I knew her at the time, but I certainly

13 knew her since.

14 Q. So all of the people named in your statement were people

15 whose names were not new to you. Is that fair?

16 A. That's fair.

17 Q. Again, Mr Jameson, let me emphasise. What I'm not

18 trying to do in this Inquiry is to get evidence to

19 convict anybody of murder. What I'm trying to do is

20 find out what the police could have seen, and what they

21 could have done and what they should have done right

22 afterwards.

23 A. I appreciate that, yes.

24 Q. All I want to know from you now, please, is if you saw

25 any of these people involved in fighting?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why does this statement of yours contain this

3 information then?

4 A. Well, this is a statement that was wrote by

5 Mr Honeyford, when I was brought down to the police

6 station that night. It is not my recollection of

7 events. I believe it's his sequence of events, not

8 mine.

9 Q. You've previously said that this statement came about

10 because Mr Honeyford forced you to make a statement, and

11 that the information you gave was information you had

12 heard around the town. Is that right?

13 A. Well, there was obviously a lot of talk about the

14 incident that had happened, and people were talking

15 about it, and Mr Honeyford was -- had also heard the

16 same stories, obviously, for he was able to tell me the

17 stories as well.

18 Q. So you both knew all this information, but you hadn't

19 seen it first hand; is that what you are saying?

20 A. I hadn't -- some of it, from what people had heard, was

21 similar. But no, I hadn't seen it first hand, no.

22 Q. Can we look at the bottom of page [00267]? In the last

23 three lines there you say in this statement:

24 "The Land Rover was parked at the side of the

25 street. I didn't see any police get out of it."

1 Now, what this says in this placement in the

2 statement is that you saw fighting, you saw a police

3 Land Rover, you didn't see any police get out of it, and

4 you didn't see any police helping anybody.

5 Now, we know that the police version of events is

6 that they were out of the Land Rover as quickly as they

7 could and were out there helping people, and what I just

8 want to let you know is that the Panel is going to have

9 to decide whether the police got out of the Land Rover

10 quickly enough, what they did when they got out, and so

11 on.

12 And one of the things that they are going to be

13 interested in considering is what the detectives who

14 were taking statements were doing about this, and here

15 one of the detectives taking a statement from you, which

16 you say is a false statement which he required you to

17 make, is criticise the police for not getting out of the

18 Land Rover.

19 Now, can you help the Panel with why a detective

20 would have put that in your statement if it is a false

21 statement?

22 A. I can't, no.

23 Q. You were seen by a number of people that are meeting

24 with a barrister for the prosecution, and some people

25 from the DPP's office and your father some time after

1 this, I think, in October 1997 and that is when you told

2 them that this was a false statement; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct, yes.

4 Q. Did you get the impression that anybody took seriously

5 what you said at that point about it being a false

6 statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Because we have been hearing that the Director of Public

9 Prosecutions representative rolled his eyes when you

10 said that. Did you see that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you consider making a complaint against

13 Mr Honeyford?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Why not?

16 A. I don't know. It just never entered my head.

17 Q. How did you feel after the interview that resulted in

18 this statement being taken?

19 A. On the night it happened?

20 Q. This statement was taken from you in May 1997 and you

21 are telling us it was a false statement that

22 Mr Honeyford required you to make. How did you feel

23 after you had signed it?

24 A. Stupid. I remember that whenever I told my dad about

25 it, he would ask me to write down what the statement

1 said. I wasn't able to do that because I could have

2 told him most of the names that were on it, but

3 I couldn't have put it into the -- into the wording or

4 the sequence of events that Mr Honeyford did.

5 Q. How soon after making this statement did you tell your

6 father that you had done it?

7 A. A couple of weeks, I think.

8 Q. What was his reaction?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. Did you talk about going back to the police to try to

11 retract it?

12 A. I think we got in touch with -- we got in touch with

13 a solicitor and told him about it.

14 Q. Why a solicitor? Why did you think you needed legal

15 help?

16 A. Just thought that's who it was best to go and see about

17 it.

18 Q. Your father, for various reasons, knew a number of

19 police officers, didn't he?

20 A. He did, yes.

21 Q. So would it have been difficult to make some contact

22 with the police, to make the position clear?

23 A. I don't know if he would have ...

24 Q. You see, Mr Honeyford has already given evidence, and he

25 has told us that the interview he had with you was

1 a civilised one in which you were pleasant, polite,

2 straightforward and appeared to him to be telling the

3 truth. Would you like to comment on that?

4 A. Well, the interview itself took four or five hours. So

5 you know, it wasn't just as straightforward as maybe he

6 is making out.

7 Q. But tell us how it came about that you ended up making

8 a statement which you felt stupid about afterwards.

9 A. I didn't feel stupid in making -- I felt stupid that

10 I had signed a statement that wasn't mine.

11 Q. Tell us how it came about that you had signed it then.

12 A. I didn't know I couldn't not sign it. I was told to

13 sign it. I was looking out of the police station, to be

14 honest. I just wanted to go.

15 Q. You see, the picture you are painting so far is that

16 these are all names you had heard, or were familiar

17 with, that you had heard around town the talk of what

18 had happened to the night?

19 A. Rumours, yes.

20 Q. That you had heard -- that Mr Honeyford had also heard,

21 essentially, the same things, and that you spent four or

22 five hours discussing those things between you. He

23 wrote a statement and you signed it. Is that a fair

24 assessment of the process in your evidence?

25 A. Not really, no.

1 Q. Tell us in your own words how the interview went then.

2 A. Well, I was telling what I'm telling you. I can't

3 remember what happened on the night, and he was telling

4 me that I had been placed at the scene and if I couldn't

5 remember what was happening, that there is a good chance

6 I was involved in it and I could be treated as

7 a suspect. It just went on for ages.

8 Q. How did you feel?

9 A. I didn't feel very, very good. I was just frightened.

10 I was on my own. My dad wasn't there. There was no --

11 I didn't think I needed any legal representation or...

12 Just -- it didn't feel like I was a witness. The way he

13 was talking it was more like I was a suspect.

14 Q. Right. The -- I want to ask you about the man you knew

15 as Fonzy. That nickname was a bit later attached by the

16 police to somebody called Andrew Allen. Do you know

17 whether the Fonzy you knew was Andrew Allen?

18 A. No, it was P55

19 Q. If the police had asked you about the Fonzy you were

20 talking about, or the Fonzy you believed this statement

21 to be about, would you have told them the name?

22 A. I don't think then I would have knew his name. I would

23 have knew him as Fonzy.

24 Q. Were you asked to attend an identity parade for any of

25 these people?

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. Or to have any further dealings with the police after

3 you gave this statement? Let me make this clear. We

4 know, as I said, that in October or so you ended up at

5 a meeting with the barrister, et cetera. But between

6 making this statement and then, were there other

7 requests from the police like to have a look at mug

8 shots or anything like that?

9 A. Not that I can recall, no.

10 Q. When you tell us that you heard the talk around the town

11 about what had happened, tell us what the talk around

12 the town was.

13 A. I can't really remember exactly now, to be honest. Just

14 that there -- there was obviously the fight and there

15 was just a lot of names being bounced about, who was

16 involved in it.

17 Q. You have obviously had a chance -- more than one

18 chance -- to look at this statement that you signed. Is

19 there anything in it that's inconsistent with the talk

20 around the time that you had heard?

21 A. There was certainly nothing to that sort of detail. You

22 know, or about who was actually punching or who was

23 actually kicking anyone. There was never any detail

24 like that.

25 Q. Was there detail about dark police cars, one parked

1 behind the other?

2 A. No.

3 Q. One other matter I want to ask you about, and that's at

4 page [19483]. This is a statement of the police officer

5 we are calling G, and this deals with an event which is

6 what led you to being interviewed by Mr Honeyford in

7 May.

8 You remember, there were two close protection

9 officers that your father had at the time -- if you want

10 to see his name, we will give it to you on a piece of

11 paper -- but this is one of the officers. What he says

12 in a statement here, if we pick it up about halfway down

13 this part:

14 "Timothy Jameson, who is Bobby Jameson's son, was

15 talking to us about the incident. I remember he said he

16 was in town that night. He said he was with others, but

17 he didn't say who they were. I don't remember him

18 saying where he had been coming from or where he

19 intended going to. I don't know how this conversation

20 started but [the officer] and I normally went out to this

21 utility room to have a smoke, there is also

22 a toilet there. Timothy must have come out to us. He

23 said he saw a crowd at the end of Thomas Street and he

24 heard someone say the word 'fenian'. He said he ran up

25 the town and from this I took it that he was down at the

1 bottom end of the town, the Country Fried Chicken end.

2 He then said [top third] as he ran past he put the boot

3 in. He didn't say who he put the boot into or how he

4 put the boot into them. He didn't say if he connected

5 with anyone. The way he said it I took it to mean that

6 he did it as he was running past and he wasn't part of

7 it, it was like an opportunist thing on the way past.

8 He was telling us it like as if he had a swipe on the way

9 past the crowd." He says that's why they reported you to

10 the police and that's why Detective Constable Honeyford

11 called you in for questioning.

12 What do you say about this conversation?

13 A. It never happened. It never happened.

14 Q. And yet you say that Mr Honeyford was treating you as if

15 you were a suspect?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you help us with why he would have done that?

18 A. Well, I don't know -- he was being very intimidating,

19 very forceful.

20 Q. Can we be clear about this conversation, which this

21 officer says that you had. Do you recall a conversation

22 at all with these officers?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So when you were asked to go to the police station, as

25 it turned out to give the statement you gave, was that

1 completely out of the blue?

2 A. The police had called up to my mum's that afternoon, and

3 when I got home from school they called back up again

4 and brought me down. As far as I was aware, it was just

5 because of what had happened, because he had

6 subsequently died. They were taking a statement.

7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Jameson.

8 Examination by MR O'HARE

9 MR O'HARE: You were at college the day the police called up

10 to your house, isn't that correct, to speak to you, the

11 day that this statement was taken that you were just

12 shown?

13 A. Pardon?

14 Q. Were you at college the day when you arrived home and

15 found that the police had been looking for you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were you studying at the time?

18 A. GNVQ in the built environment.

19 Q. Did you subsequently go to university?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You knew at this stage that you had already filled in

22 this questionnaire that has been shown to you; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And when you had been asked to fill in that

1 questionnaire you had been told that you had been

2 identified at the scene of an assault; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Yes. And the evening that you went down to the police

5 station, you are aware that Robert Hamill had died?

6 A. I think so, yes.

7 Q. You are not sure about that?

8 A. I probably was, yes.

9 Q. You probably were?

10 A. Mm-hm.

11 Q. Did you wonder, having told the police that you didn't

12 -- in the questionnaire, that you didn't see any

13 fighting or anything of that nature, did you wonder to

14 yourself: what do the police want to talk to me about?

15 A. I thought they were just going to be doing everybody

16 again.

17 Q. Doing everybody again?

18 A. Requestioning everyone.

19 Q. Requestioning everyone?

20 A. Yes. That was the impression I got.

21 Q. Now, Mr Underwood asked you about the talk around the

22 town that evening. You said that the detail in that

23 statement of the talk around the town wasn't as detailed

24 as the detail contained in that statement; is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where did the detail in that statement come from,

3 Mr Jameson?

4 A. From Mr Honeyford.

5 Q. From Mr Honeyford?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Perhaps the statement could be put up from page 1 again,

8 please. My page number is [17653].

9 Perhaps if the top half of that could be

10 highlighted. Going three lines down:

11 "The bus left the Coach at 1.15 am and got into the

12 Portadown at about 1.40 am."

13 You said that would be the normal time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you tell Mr Honeyford that, this night?

16 A. It was in my first statement.

17 Q. Yes. But did you say that to Mr Honeyford on the

18 evening of 9 May when you were in Portadown Police

19 Station?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Moving on from that:

22 "I came home on the bus with two mates,

23 Stephen Bloomer and Kyle Magee."

24 Did you tell Mr Honeyford that on the evening of

25 9 May?

1 A. Yeah, probably.

2 Q. You hadn't mentioned Stephen Bloomer in your

3 questionnaire. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Possibly, yes.

5 Q. Well, perhaps page [70865] could be shown. If you look

6 at the bottom two lines there:

7 "Who was with you?"

8 This is at a stage where, perhaps if you go a couple

9 of lines up: you stood at Wellworths, looked up the

10 street, saw the police Land Rover, beside the Halifax;

11 "Who was with you? Kyle Magee."

12 Perhaps turn over the page, please. About ten lines

13 down:

14 "If travelled from Banbridge, who else travelled to

15 Portadown with you? Kyle Magee."

16 Is that correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. There's no mention of Stephen Bloomer in

19 a questionnaire, is there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was there any particular reason why you didn't tell

22 Detective Constable Honeyford when he was asking you

23 those questions about Stephen Bloomer?

24 A. I maybe just couldn't remember whether Stephen was there

25 or not?

1 Q. You couldn't remember?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. This questionnaire was filled in on 29 April, is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Two days after you arriving home from the Coach -- from

7 the Coach in Banbridge?

8 A. Mm-hm.

9 Q. And you say on 29 April you couldn't remember whether

10 Stephen Bloomer had been with you at that stage in

11 High Street?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You couldn't. So did Detective Constable Honeyford tell

14 you that Stephen Bloomer was with you?

15 A. I think we may have been talking since this statement,

16 or the first statement was taken, and maybe I had known

17 Stephen was with me.

18 Q. So you think you may have forgotten about Stephen

19 Bloomer on the evening you gave the answers to the

20 questionnaire, but by the time you made this statement

21 you had remembered that Stephen Bloomer was with you?

22 A. Or I had been told.

23 Q. Or you had been told. Is that why you mention in this

24 statement Stephen Bloomer?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So it was you give the name Stephen Bloomer then to

2 Detective Constable Honeyford?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He certainly didn't suggest the name Stephen Bloomer to

5 you?

6 A. I don't think so.

7 Q. You don't think so. Perhaps we could go back to page

8 [17653], and again just highlight the top portion.

9 About five lines down:

10 "When we got off the bus in Portadown at 'Herron's

11 Country Fried Chicken' we stood about at the bottom of

12 the town for about five minutes to see if there were any

13 parties on anywhere."

14 Did you say that to Detective Constable Honeyford?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Would Detective Constable Honeyford have known that you

17 stood around for five minutes looking to see if there

18 was a party on?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So then would you accept from me that that information

21 had to come from you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Continuing on:

24 "The three of us walked up the street to

25 'Boss Hoggs'."

1 Did you say that to Detective Constable Honeyford?

2 A. I would say I did, yes.

3 Q. You would say you did:

4 "I went in on my own to get a chip and a tin of

5 Coke."

6 Do you see where it says that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It doesn't say, "The three of us went into Boss Hoggs"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you say that to Detective Constable Honeyford?

11 A. I have been told since my questionnaire that I went into

12 Boss Hoggs and got a chip.

13 Q. On your own?

14 A. I assume on my own, yes.

15 Q. You assumed on your own or you had been told that you

16 went in on your own?

17 A. I can't remember exactly now.

18 Q. Who told you?

19 A. Probably Kyle or Stephen.

20 Q. Probably Kyle or Stephen. Had you been discussing

21 before you made this statement the events with Kyle and

22 Stephen, the events of this night?

23 A. Quite possibly.

24 Q. Quite possibly. Do you recall where?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Going down to the last line there, and perhaps highlight

2 further on down the page:

3 "There was a fellow called McClure ..."?

4 A. Mm-hm.

5 Q. Do you see that:

6 "... standing beside us at Wellworths with his

7 girlfriend."

8 Did Detective Constable Honeyford tell you that?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. Well, how could Detective Constable Honeyford know that

11 a fellow called McClure was standing with his girlfriend

12 beside you at Wellworths?

13 A. I don't even know McClure at all.

14 Q. But how could Detective Constable Honeyford know that

15 you were standing at Wellworths with a fellow called

16 McClure and his girlfriend?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Didn't that come from you, Mr Jameson?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. And the fact that he played football for Hanover, didn't

21 that come from you?

22 A. I can't remember it at all.

23 Q. You can't remember it at all.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you with a fellow called McClure, and

25 standing beside him at Wellworths and was he with his

1 girlfriend?

2 A. I don't remember seeing him. I don't remember ...

3 MR O'HARE: Did you then tell Detective Constable Honeyford

4 that you were waiting to meet Tom Quinn?

5 A. Yes, I probably did.

6 Q. You did tell him that? Turning over the next page, did

7 you tell Detective Constable Honeyford -- the top half

8 of the page could be highlighted -- there were 15 to 20

9 persons fighting in the middle of the town?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You didn't tell him that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Those were his words?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can I ask you then, the rest of the details about Marc,

16 about Forbes, Hanvey, Bridgett, those names -- you never

17 mentioned any of those names to him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. That's your evidence?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And those are his words?

22 A. Those are his words, yes.

23 Q. When you left the station, Mr Jameson, you said that you

24 felt stupid having made this statement. Is that

25 correct?

1 A. Stupid that I had signed a statement that wasn't mine,

2 yes.

3 Q. Worse than that, Mr Jameson. It was a statement that

4 you knew was false; isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it was a statement implicating five people in a

7 fight that was going on; isn't that correct?

8 A. Mm-hm.

9 Q. And a fight in which Robert Hamill died; isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. I take it then Detective Constable Honeyford, he was

13 mentioning these names to you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Say, we'll put down here that Hanvey did this; isn't

16 that correct? That's what Detective Constable Honeyford

17 was doing to you, "We will say Hanvey did this", for

18 example?

19 A. He was suggesting it.

20 Q. He was suggesting it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what did you say to that?

23 A. I can't -- I never seen it.

24 Q. When he said, what way did he suggest it to you?

25 A. I can't remember exactly now.

1 Q. Well, did he, for example, suggest -- say, "We will put

2 down in this statement, 'I looked around and saw

3 Allister Hanvey kick and punch this fellow who was lying

4 on the ground'"; did he say, "That is what we will put

5 in the statement"?

6 A. Maybe not just as blunt as what you are putting it.

7 Q. How long had you known Allister Hanvey at this stage?

8 A. Maybe a couple of years.

9 Q. Three years?

10 A. Possibly, yes.

11 Q. Did you tell Detective Constable Honeyford that, "I know

12 Allister Hanvey to see for three years"?

13 A. I can't remember if he asked me how long.

14 Q. After you left the station, Mr Robinson [sic], you were living

15 with your mother at the time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you tell your mother when you went home that

18 evening?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You had been in the police station according to you for

21 approximately five hours?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why didn't you tell your mother what had happened in the

24 police station?

25 A. Just didn't really talk to my mum about anything like

1 that.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: That doesn't really answer counsel's

3 question. Think about it. Why didn't you tell your

4 mother what had happened?

5 A. I don't know why I didn't -- I don't --

6 MR O'HARE: You were 18 years of age at the time,

7 Mr Jameson.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were living with your mother; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. According to you, you had just signed a statement that

12 you knew was false?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Implicating five people in an incident that resulted in

15 the death of Robert Hamill; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you knew you had gone to the police station to be

18 asked about what information you had, isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Why did you not say to your mother, "Listen, you will

22 never guess what they made me do down there, I have just

23 signed a statement that was false and I have told

24 falsehoods or lies about people or signed a statement to

25 that effect"; why did you not tell your mother?

1 A. Because that is not the sort of -- I never talked to my

2 mum about anything like that.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: But you say Honeyford had intimidated you?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you not tell your mother you had been

6 intimidated by this police officer?

7 A. I told my dad.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you tell your mother?

9 A. No.

10 MR O'HARE: I believe you said you didn't tell your father

11 for a couple of weeks?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Did you get in touch with Allister Hanvey or his family?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Why not?

16 A. I didn't -- I didn't know Allister.

17 Q. You had known him for three years?

18 A. I had known him to see. I wouldn't know his phone

19 number to ring him up or where he lived to go and lift

20 him.

21 Q. He wouldn't have been too hard to find, isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. If you don't where he lives, you don't know where he

24 lives.

25 Q. Then Forbes?

1 A. I don't know where Dean Forbes lives either.

2 Q. Did you make any attempt to get in touch with any of

3 those people that you named in that statement to say,

4 "Listen here, I was made to sign a false statement

5 implicating you"?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why did you wait a couple of weeks then to tell your

8 father about this?

9 A. I can't remember why.

10 Q. Well, Mr Jameson, your father, at that time, received

11 police protection; isn't that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. He was doing important contract work for the police;

14 isn't that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. You were used to seeing him in the presence of police

17 officers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you don't know why you didn't tell him for a couple

20 of weeks, "Listen, I was made by a police officer in

21 Portadown Police Station to sign a statement that was

22 false"?

23 A. He may have been away. I don't know why I didn't tell

24 him for two weeks.

25 Q. Did you not tell anybody then?

1 A. No.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Who would have told your father that you had

3 been bullied by a police officer and a false statement

4 had been written? Who would have told him?

5 A. I told him.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but you said he might have been told by

7 someone else?

8 A. No.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Who else might have told him? I hope

10 I haven't misheard him.

11 MR O'HARE: Do you remember why it was a couple of weeks

12 before you told your father?

13 A. No, I don't remember why it was so long.

14 Q. Were you not worried about the fact you had signed this

15 false statement to the police?

16 A. I was, yes.

17 Q. And you did nothing about it then for a couple of weeks?

18 A. That is the kind of person I am. I just tried to forget

19 about it.

20 Q. When you signed that statement, did you realise that it

21 was going to be used as evidence against the people

22 named in that statement?

23 A. I can't remember, but I would assume it now.

24 Q. You would assume it now. What did you think at the time

25 was the purpose in you signing that statement?

1 A. I had to get out of the police station at the time.

2 I just wanted out.

3 Q. Why do you think the police wanted you to put your name

4 to that statement, naming those people?

5 A. Because they had got what they wanted out of me. They

6 got me to sign this statement of Honeyford's.

7 Q. What did you think the police were going to do with that

8 statement?

9 A. Probably start building a case.

10 Q. Start building a case? When you say "start building a

11 case", arresting people?

12 A. I don't know. Got more evidence or whatever they do.

13 Q. We know that Hanvey and others were arrested the

14 following day. Did you hear about them being arrested?

15 A. I can't remember if I heard or not.

16 Q. You can't remember. Did you at any stage hear about

17 them being arrested and remanded in custody?

18 A. Yes, I am sure I did at some stage.

19 Q. Did you wonder to yourself, "I wonder if that has

20 anything to do with the false statement I signed"?

21 A. That's probably when I went to my dad.

22 Q. That's probably when you went to your dad?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Which you have told us was approximately two weeks after

25 you made the statement?

1 A. A week or two weeks, yes.

2 Q. A week or two weeks. And you said your father got you

3 to write down the names of the people?

4 A. No. He asked me to write down what my statement said.

5 Q. I apologise, yes?

6 A. I said that I could probably imagine most of the names

7 on it, but I couldn't physically write down the sequence

8 of events as it was in my statement. I had only ever

9 seen it once in the police station.

10 Q. Did you tell your father that you had been intimidated

11 by this policeman in Portadown Station into making that

12 statement?

13 A. I told him that it wasn't my words, it was Honeyford's

14 words.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Please answer the question.

16 A. I can't remember exactly what I told him, whether I used

17 the words "I was intimidated" or not.

18 MR O'HARE: Look, Mr Jameson, according to you you were

19 intimidated by a policeman in Portadown Police Station

20 into making that statement that is on the screen?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. You wait two weeks before you tell your father?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you do not recall whether you said, "Look, there is

25 a policeman down there by the name of Honeyford, he gave

1 me a hard time, he intimidated me"; do you not recall

2 telling your father something like that?

3 A. I wouldn't have been just as bold as you are being, but

4 I would have told him that -- what had happened.

5 Q. What did you tell him?

6 A. That Honeyford came up and got me from mum's house, took

7 me down the station. He was suggesting that I could be

8 a suspect in this, and was putting all these suggestions

9 to me and putting them down in a statement that I ended

10 up signing.

11 Q. He intimidated you into making that statement?

12 A. I wouldn't have said "intimidated", but I was made to

13 make it, yes.

14 Q. Would you have used the word "duress"?

15 A. No, maybe not at that time.

16 Q. Not at that time?

17 A. Mm-hm.

18 Q. Did you ever use the word "duress"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did you use the word "duress"?

21 A. Some time later.

22 Q. When later?

23 A. I can't remember exactly.

24 Q. You can't remember exactly. Did you tell someone at

25 a later stage that you made this statement to Honeyford

1 under duress; is that what you are trying to tell us?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you say that to?

4 A. I can't remember who it was.

5 Q. Did your father have a solicitor at the time?

6 A. Sure he did.

7 Q. Do you know who that solicitor was?

8 A. I don't know who he was using at that time, no.

9 Q. You don't know who he was using at that time. Did your

10 father bring you to a solicitor?

11 A. Yes, we went over to a guy in Banbridge.

12 Q. That was on 21 May 1997.

13 A. It was when, sorry?

14 Q. 21 May 1997.

15 A. I can't remember what date it was.

16 Q. I will just to go back, if I may. When you told your

17 father about making that false statement, did he not

18 suggest to you, "I will bring you down to the station

19 now and we will get this sorted out"?

20 A. I can't remember what exactly happened.

21 Q. How did your father feel when you told him you had

22 signed this false statement?

23 A. You need to ask him how he felt.

24 Q. What did he say to you, Mr Jameson, when you told him?

25 A. I can't remember.

1 Q. You can't remember. Did he bring you down to the police

2 station prior to going to see a solicitor on

3 21 May 1997?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. Well, Mr Jameson, the night you made the statement to

6 the police, was that the first time you had been in

7 Portadown Police Station?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you been back to Portadown Police Station since

10 then?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can we take it that your father didn't bring you down to

13 Portadown Police Station when you told him about making

14 that false statement?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why did you tell us you can't remember?

17 A. I can't remember if he did or not.

18 Q. You can't remember if your father brought you down to

19 Portadown Police Station to say to someone, "Listen to

20 what happened to my son"; you wouldn't remember that?

21 A. I suppose I would, yes.

22 Q. Of course you would, Mr Jameson. Isn't this all a lie,

23 that you are saying about Detective Constable Honeyford?

24 A. No.

25 Q. That you made that statement knowing fine well that you

1 were making a witness statement at the time?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You knew before you left the station that your identity

4 as the maker of this statement was going to be

5 protected; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how did you know your identity was going to be

8 protected?

9 A. I was told by Honeyford.

10 Q. You were told by Honeyford. In fact Honeyford left the

11 room at one stage; isn't that correct?

12 A. A few times.

13 Q. And he came back and said words to the effect of, "It's

14 okay, your identity will be protected"?

15 A. I can't remember what exactly he said now.

16 Q. But you were given the clear impression by Honeyford

17 that no one would know that you had made this statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you feel relieved at that?

20 A. I can't remember how I felt, to tell you the truth.

21 Q. Were you aware that Honeyford went, or did he tell you,

22 "I've got to go and speak to a senior officer about

23 this, keeping your identity a secret"?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. You can't remember whether you were relieved that your

1 identity was going to be kept a secret?

2 A. I can't remember, no.

3 Q. But you certainly kept the fact of you having made this

4 statement quiet for about two weeks?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You didn't tell anybody?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I have to suggest to you, Mr Jameson, that that is the

9 reason why you made this statement. It was on the basis

10 that Honeyford told you that your identity would be kept

11 secret, as it were?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, your father subsequently brought you to the

14 solicitor on 21 May 1997; isn't that right? That was

15 a Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

16 A. Mr xxxxxxxxxx, yes.

17 Q. And you can't remember whether Mr xxxxxxxxxx was your

18 father's solicitor at the time or not?

19 A. No, I can't remember. He uses different solicitors.

20 Q. Can you recall who he was using around that time?

21 A. I wasn't involved in his personal affairs and business

22 affairs.

23 Q. Had you ever heard him refer to Mr xxxxxxxxxx, solicitor?

24 A. No, I wouldn't -- I would never have asked him who he

25 was using as a solicitor at any time.

1 Q. When you went to see Mr xxxxxxxxxx, did your father go

2 with you?

3 A. I would assume so, yes.

4 Q. Had you ever gone to see a solicitor before this,

5 Mr Jameson?

6 A. I don't think so.

7 Q. You don't think so. So this would have been your first

8 time that you had gone to see a solicitor?

9 A. Quite possibly.

10 Q. And it wasn't in Portadown?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did your father go with you or didn't he?

13 A. I would say he did.

14 Q. Did you go into the same room with your father --

15 A. I can't remember the meeting itself, no.

16 Q. You can't remember the meeting itself?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What did you think was the purpose of this meeting?

19 A. To go about getting my statement retracted.

20 Q. To go about getting your statement retracted?

21 A. Yes. As it wasn't the truth.

22 Q. What do you mean by getting your statement retracted?

23 What do you understand by that, getting your statement

24 retracted?

25 A. Well, to go about telling the truth, that it wasn't my

1 statement, it was Honeyford.

2 Q. Why were you telling the solicitor this?

3 A. Why was I telling him?

4 Q. Yes, did you tell him what Honeyford told you to?

5 A. I assume so, I think so. I can't really remember.

6 Q. You assume so?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you say to the solicitor, "This man put me under

9 pressure, duress, whatever, intimidated me, to make this

10 statement"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You did? And did you tell this solicitor that he put

13 words into your mouth?

14 A. I can't remember. I can't really remember much of the

15 actual meeting.

16 Q. Perhaps we could have page 47439 up, please.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us which document this is,

18 Mr O'Hare, please?

19 MR O'HARE: It is a fax from xxxxxxxxxx Solicitors

20 to the Robert Hamill Inquiry, dated 20 December 2006.

21 72988, my apologies.

22 MR UNDERWOOD: In case anybody is concerned about this,

23 Mr Jameson was kind enough to waive privilege about

24 these.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

1 MR O'HARE: This is a fax from xxxxxxxxxx

2 Solicitors, the solicitors that you went to see on

3 21 May 1997. Do you understand that, Mr Jameson?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It is to the Robert Hamill Inquiry, this Inquiry?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "It is my recollection that Mr Jameson indicated on

8 21st May 1997 that substantive averments made to RUC

9 officers were based on rumour and supposition as opposed

10 to personal knowledge. He stated that on the night in

11 question he was inebriated and could not actually recall

12 details of the incident. I advised him to fully explain

13 and clarify the position to the prosecuting authorities

14 as soon as possible."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. I see it, yes.

17 Q. Now, first of all, there's no mention there of duress,

18 or intimidation or pressure by a police officer, is

19 there?

20 A. No. Like I said, I can't remember meeting xxxxxxxxxx.

21 Q. No. But you agree with me that there's no mention in

22 that document, which is the recollection of Mr xxxxxxxxxx,

23 of any mention of duress, pressure or intimidation by

24 a police officer in you signing the statement?

25 A. Not in that fax, no.

1 Q. Or words being put into your mouth that weren't yours?

2 A. Not in that fax, no.

3 Q. And this is the solicitor that you and your father, you

4 think, went to consult about this false statement you

5 had made?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Moving on to the next line:

8 "I advised him to fully explain and clarify the

9 position to the prosecuting authorities as soon as

10 possible."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Well, after 21 May then, did you go to the prosecuting

14 authorities, and when I say "prosecuting authorities",

15 either the police or the then Director of Public

16 Prosecutions office, to clarify the position?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Did you ever make the statement of retraction that you

19 mention to us a while ago?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You never made a complaint to the police about the

22 conduct of Detective Constable Honeyford; isn't that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Nor did your father or anybody on your behalf, or

1 Mr xxxxxxxxxx for that matter, make a complaint about the

2 conduct of Detective Constable xxxxxxxxxx?

3 A. You mean Honeyford?

4 Q. Honeyford, sorry?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Why was that?

7 A. I'm not into stirring up trouble and trying to -- you

8 know, I don't know.

9 Q. What were you going to do about the retraction then of

10 this statement?

11 A. Explain, I don't understand.

12 Q. You said that the reason you went to the solicitor was

13 to have the statement retracted. What did you do about

14 having this statement retracted, Mr Jameson?

15 A. Obviously not very much.

16 Q. Obviously nothing, I suggest to you, Mr Jameson, until

17 17 October 1997, when you walked into the consultation

18 with Mr Kerr and the representative of the Director of

19 Public Prosecutions office. Isn't that correct?

20 A. It appears so.

21 Q. You did nothing for five and a half months, Mr Jameson.

22 Isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Meanwhile, people that you had named in this statement

25 had been remanded and were still in custody?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you can't give us any explanation why no contact was

3 made by either you, your father or your solicitor to the

4 department -- the Director of Public Prosecutions or

5 indeed the Police Ombudsman's office?

6 A. No, I can't give you an explanation for that.

7 Q. One explanation for it is, because this is all a cock

8 and bull story that you have invented about Detective

9 Constable Honeyford. That would be an explanation,

10 wouldn't it?

11 A. No.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we just see what that fax from your

13 father's solicitor doesn't say? It didn't say you were

14 intimidated or bullied, does it?

15 A. No.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: It says, in effect, that it was your

17 statement, made by you, but made by you based on rumour

18 rather than what you had seen for yourself. That's the

19 effect of it, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that surprise you?

22 A. A little, yes.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: A little bit.

24 MR O'HARE: In fact the meeting with Mr Gordon Kerr QC and

25 the Director of Public Prosecutions office in

1 November 1997, this was the first time it was ever

2 raised by you about something was wrong with your

3 statement, if I can put it like that. Isn't that

4 correct?

5 A. To the prosecuting authorities, yes.

6 Q. To the prosecuting authorities. Going back, you knew

7 who Witness A was. Isn't that correct, Mr Jameson?

8 A. At some point.

9 Q. You knew Tracey Clarke in 1997?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Didn't you? And you knew her still in 2006, when you

12 were interviewed by the Inquiry; isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware on 21 May 1997 that Tracey Clarke had

15 been up to see the Director of Public Prosecutions, or

16 a representative, and Mr Kerr some four days earlier?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You didn't know that she went on 17 October?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You hadn't been speaking to her?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You were interviewed by the Inquiry investigators around

23 April 2006; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by Mr Stephens and

1 Mr Pinfield?

2 A. Yes, a wee bit, yes.

3 Q. A wee bit?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who all was present with you in that interview?

6 A. I think just Mr Monteith.

7 Q. And do you remember was Tracey Clarke interviewed around

8 that time as well?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You don't know. Have you spoken to Tracey Clarke about

11 her attitude towards these proceedings?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You haven't?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I am going to suggest to you, Mr Jameson, that the

16 reason why you retracted or you told the DPP in October

17 1997 all of this, that you couldn't remember being

18 drunk, Honeyford put the words into your mouth; you had

19 changed your mind, isn't that correct?

20 A. No, that is not correct.

21 Q. Why did you tell them that in October 1997 then?

22 A. Because it was the truth.

23 Q. It was the truth? You were careful not to tell them

24 that you weren't afraid to give evidence; isn't that

25 right?

1 A. I was what, sorry?

2 Q. You were not afraid to give evidence?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Why did you tell them that?

5 A. I can't remember. I wouldn't be afraid to give evidence

6 on something if it was true in what I'm saying.

7 Q. But nothing to do with the events of this night?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Because if you had seen people fighting, you wouldn't be

10 afraid to give that evidence?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did anybody tell you to say that you weren't afraid?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And that the easiest way out was to say: This is all

15 Honeyford's words, I was drunk and have no recollection?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You are sure about that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You see, I have to suggest to you that the contents of

20 that statement are what you saw and heard on the night

21 in question, Mr Jameson, and, for whatever reason, you

22 have decided that the only way of getting out of the

23 contents of that statement was to make up these

24 allegations against Honeyford?

25 A. That is not true.

1 MR O'HARE: Thank you.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I see the time. We will have a break until

3 half past 3.

4 (3.15 pm)

5 (A short break)

7 (3.32 pm)

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory.

9 Examination by MR McGRORY

10 MR McGRORY: Mr Jameson, I am going to ask you some

11 questions on behalf of the Hamill family.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. We have heard that you were 18 at the time of this

14 terrible incident; isn't that correct?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. You have also referred in your evidence so far to the

17 fact that your father had police escorts?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he was somebody who was afforded a considerable

20 amount of police protection; isn't that right?

21 A. That's right, yes.

22 Q. Now, I am not interested in the private details of your

23 family situation, but I simply want to put this in

24 context. Had this police protection been in existence

25 since before your parents had started living apart?

100

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So would it be fair to say that you had grown up with

3 a certain amount of police protection about the house?

4 A. Yes. As long as I can remember, yes.

5 Q. Of course the reason for that was that your father was

6 someone who conducted a lot of building work for the

7 Police Service?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as such, he was regarded as someone who was at risk?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, that police protection, it took the form of people

12 driving him; isn't that correct?

13 A. That's right, yes.

14 Q. And there would have been policemen stationed around the

15 house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that of course continued once your father began to

18 live in a separate house from you and your mother?

19 A. That is right, yes.

20 Q. Would you have had a fairly comfortable relationship

21 with those policemen?

22 A. We didn't really get to -- they weren't about all that

23 often. They were never really in the house or talking

24 to us. They were just in the car or in the laneway of

25 the house. We were never in really direct conversations

101

1 with them.

2 Q. Well, they would always have been driving your father

3 whenever he went?

4 A. Or been behind in the car, yes.

5 Q. And they would have been around the house, outside the

6 house or parked outside the house at all times?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And there would have been occasions when you would be

9 chatting to them from time to time?

10 A. Very -- yes, occasionally, yes.

11 Q. And you know it has been suggested to you that on one

12 particular occasion, just after the Hamill incident,

13 beating of Robert Hamill, that you were in such a casual

14 conversation with the two policemen. That has been put

15 to you, is that right?

16 A. That has, yes.

17 Q. So do you accept that such a casual conversation,

18 leaving aside what you might have said to them on this

19 occasion, wouldn't have been unheard of?

20 A. Not at my dad's house. I would never have -- I was

21 never very, very rarely in his house at that time. It

22 wasn't --

23 Q. That wasn't quite my question. Wherever it was,

24 whenever they were in your -- when your father was

25 living with you and was under police protection or after

102

1 he moved?

2 A. It was different whenever he was living with us, because

3 you would have seen them more and you would have -- you

4 know, you would maybe have known a wee bit more. But

5 whenever he didn't live with us, you didn't know the

6 policemen.

7 Q. No.

8 A. You wouldn't have seen them often enough to have any

9 sort of relationship with them.

10 Q. But if you were in conversation, whether it was at

11 a time prior to your father living separately or

12 whenever with these policemen who were guarding your

13 father, would it be fair to say you wouldn't have

14 regarded it as a situation where those policemen were

15 questioning you about anything, or that you were at any

16 risk or anything like that?

17 A. No, but I was aware they were police officers.

18 Q. I am suggesting to you that you would have built up some

19 sort of relationship with the policemen who guarded your

20 father over the years?

21 A. In the earlier years, but not as time went on. Not when

22 he didn't live with us, I wouldn't have known the police

23 officers. There was different police officers over

24 a period of years.

25 Q. You certainly knew Robbie Atkinson when he was your

103

1 father's driver; isn't that correct?

2 A. I did, yes.

3 Q. You would have known him to talk to?

4 A. Yes, to see and to talk to, yes.

5 Q. But would you agree that the circumstances in which you

6 would be talking to police guards of your father would

7 be quite different to speaking to police in a police

8 station?

9 A. Oh yes, definitely, yes.

10 Q. Now, I am going to suggest to you that it is very

11 possible that you would have been less guarded with

12 those police officers than you would be in a police

13 station about what you would say. Do you understand the

14 question?

15 A. I understand the question, yes. Regardless of who

16 I would be talking to, it's just -- there is no way

17 I would have said what the two officers are saying. Not

18 to them, not to anyone, because it is just not true.

19 Q. But certainly by the time you were brought in by

20 Mr Honeyford, you would have been aware at that point

21 that if you said anything that incriminated yourself --

22 do you understand that phrase?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That you would be at risk of prosecution?

25 A. Yes.

104

1 Q. I'm suggesting to you that by the time you were brought

2 in by Mr Honeyford, you would have been very much on

3 your guard about what you would say to him in terms of

4 your own conduct that night?

5 A. Yes, I know what you mean.

6 Q. Do you have anything to say about that?

7 A. No, no, I wasn't ...

8 Q. Now, I want to take you to that night in the police

9 station once again. You have already dealt with it at

10 some length and I don't want to dwell on this for too

11 long, but I think I need to revisit it with you. This

12 is the night of 9 May.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. You said you spent between four and five hours with

15 Mr Honeyford?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you remember what time you left?

18 A. It was almost midnight.

19 Q. And you were there from about 7; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, the outcome of that four to five-hour session with

22 Constable Honeyford was your statement of 9 May?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, in that statement you mention the names of upwards

25 of ten different people thereabouts, isn't that correct?

105

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. You say that you were with Stephen Bloomer and

3 Kyle Magee. Now, perhaps I could have the document

4 [09151] on the screen, please. If the page could be

5 highlighted from "On Saturday 26th". Thank you.

6 Now, this is the statement that Kyle Magee made to

7 the police on 29 May subsequently to your interview on

8 9 May; do you understand?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you are saying to us now that you don't really

11 remember much about who you were with and what you saw?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And you say you saw no fighting?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, Kyle Magee told the police on that occasion that he

16 was with you. Do you see that? It's about five lines

17 down.

18 A. Yes, I see it.

19 Q. "I'd have been with Timothy Jameson and Kyle Magee."

20 So you got that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He agrees with you -- sorry, my apologies. I have

23 misled you. This is the statement of Stephen Bloomer.

24 It's the same. Mr Bloomer says he was with you and

25 Mr Magee.

106

1 Now, a little bit further down the bottom half of

2 the page, there seem to be about four or five people

3 involved in the fight. So he saw that fight.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you accept that you were with him and in his company?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you don't recall seeing any fight?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But he saw it?

10 A. So he says.

11 Q. Now, you also mentioned in your statement that there was

12 a Mr McClure standing beside you at Wellworths with his

13 girlfriend. Do you remember that reference in the

14 statement of 9 May?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Perhaps I could have page [09165], please?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Whose statement is this?

18 MR McGRORY: This is a statement dated 26 June 1997 by

19 Mr McClure.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

21 MR McGRORY: This statement isn't made until June 1997,

22 Mr Jameson.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. Several weeks after you made your statement to

25 Mr Honeyford. You see that Mr McClure says that on the

107

1 evening of Saturday, 26 April, he was on the bus from

2 the Coach in Banbridge, and he got out of outside the

3 Country Fried Chicken and he got the bus back at 1.15.

4 And he got off and he was at Herron's Country Fried

5 Chicken at the bottom of the town at about 1.45 am and

6 he went to Boss Hoggs. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So there's another name that you mentioned, Mr Jameson,

9 that on investigation turned out that you were right,

10 that he was there too. Do you notice that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, are you suggesting that Mr Honeyford made the name

13 McClure up, or are you suggesting that that was one of

14 those instances where you were telling the truth?

15 A. I just can't think of anyone McClure at that moment at

16 all. I don't know -- I don't know him.

17 Q. You can't explain how Mr Honeyford, if he invented that,

18 could come up with somebody who existed and was there?

19 A. Yes. No, I can't, no.

20 Q. You mentioned quite a few other people. You mention

21 somebody called Muck as punching somebody -- perhaps if

22 I could go back to Mr Jameson's statement, [17653],

23 please.

24 Now, in this statement you mentioned somebody called

25 Muck. I think you have accepted that already. You said

108

1 that he was punching a fellow in the face with his fist

2 and he was wearing a sweater and blue jeans.

3 Now, others have identified a fellow called Muck as

4 being present. Are you aware of that at this point?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. A fellow called Marc Hobson, who was interviewed by the

7 police, and who accepted that his nickname was Muck and

8 he was present. Do you accept that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You mention a chap -- you describe a man wearing a tie

11 and a blue shirt in the course of this statement and

12 describe him as being in his mid 30s with short ginger

13 hair. Do you accept that that's in this statement of

14 9 May?

15 A. I accept that that is in there, yes.

16 Q. Now, was this something that Constable Honeyford put in

17 your head or put in the statement, or is this one of

18 those instances where you recounted something that you

19 had heard somebody else say?

20 A. I can't remember if it was one or the other.

21 Q. You see, funnily enough, there is evidence from a man

22 called Colin Prunty, who was present who fits that

23 description?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. He has given evidence to the Inquiry already, and he was

109

1 there. You mention Rory Robinson as someone who was

2 fighting. You call him "Rory". Do you remember

3 Rory Robinson?

4 A. I know Rory to see. I don't know him to talk to.

5 Q. You mention that he was wearing cream coloured jeans, so

6 the statement would say.

7 A. So the statement would say, yeah.

8 Q. Yes. Is that one of those things that

9 Constable Honeyford put in your mouth, or in the

10 statement or is that one of those things that you heard

11 from somebody else?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. You see, Rory Robinson was interviewed. He answered

14 a questionnaire and he said he was wearing pinstripe

15 jeans of a white background, which I suggest could be

16 mistaken for cream coloured jeans. So there's another

17 coincidence, isn't it, then, Mr Jameson? Rory Robinson

18 happened to be there.

19 A. If that's what you want to call it, yeah.

20 Q. Yes. Then of course you mention Allister Hanvey in this

21 statement. In fact, you don't just mention him in the

22 body of this statement -- I don't think we need to go to

23 it precisely -- you actually say that Allister Hanvey

24 was kicking the man on the ground and punching him in

25 the statement.

110

1 A. That is not what I said, but...

2 Q. Yes. Well, I'm going to tell you that a few hours later

3 Tracey Clarke arrived at the police station and she

4 didn't arrive until maybe you were finishing up, round

5 about 11 o'clock or so, and she was there at until

6 2 o'clock the next morning. Are you aware of that?

7 A. I was aware she was in the station at the same time.

8 Q. Do you know Tracey Clarke?

9 A. I do a wee bit, yes.

10 Q. Do you have a Bebo site?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is Tracey Clarke one of your friends on the Bebo site?

13 A. I don't know. I don't use it that often. She could be.

14 Q. Well, would you allow the Inquiry access to your Bebo

15 site?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'm sure when we are finished you can give the details

18 to Inquiry counsel and that can be examined.

19 Is she still a friend of yours?

20 A. No, I wouldn't have seen Tracey in a while now.

21 Q. Well, you see, Tracey Clarke came into the police

22 station quite late on, either you were just finished or

23 were finishing off, and she was there for quite a few

24 hours as well and she gave a detailed statement that

25 night.

111

1 And in her statement she gives a similar description

2 of what Allister Hanvey was doing to the description you

3 gave. Do you accept that?

4 A. I haven't seen her statement.

5 Q. No, but you are well aware of that, now, Mr Jameson,

6 that Tracey Clarke was also a potential witness in this

7 case?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And you are aware that she was also a potential witness

10 in this case, because she also implicated

11 Allister Hanvey in the attack on Robert Hamill?

12 A. Mm-hm.

13 Q. Now, are you suggesting that Constable Honeyford, when

14 he wrote down what you are said to have said about

15 Allister Hanvey, that he was making that up or that you

16 had heard it from somebody else?

17 A. He was -- he was leading me, he was suggesting it.

18 Q. So he suggested it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I have to suggest to you that Constable Honeyford

21 couldn't have known that at the time he was speaking to

22 you. But you can't comment on that, can you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, you also remembered -- well, either -- we don't

25 know whether you remember or not, but Fonzy was

112

1 mentioned in your statement; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said in the statement -- it says you saw Fonzy kick

4 a fellow with a black jacket who was lying on the

5 ground, in this statement of 9 May?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You see, there was a chap known as Fonzy, but his name

8 was Andrew Allen. You are aware of that now?

9 A. I am now, yes.

10 Q. And when he was subsequently interviewed, he accepted

11 that he was there.

12 But that wasn't until some time later, some days

13 later, after you gave your statement. But are you

14 suggesting that your reference to a Fonzy was one of

15 those that Constable Honeyford invented and put in there

16 or that you had heard from somebody else?

17 A. I can't remember, probably Honeyford.

18 Q. That was Honeyford this time?

19 A. Probably, yeah.

20 Q. And Dean Forbes as well. In your statement it says he

21 was about Poundstretcher and that you observed him punch

22 a fellow wearing a grey Umbro sweater and run off in

23 your direction.

24 You see, there is a considerable amount of evidence

25 that Dean Forbes happened to be there too. He accepts

113

1 he was around and he was interviewed.

2 A. I am sure that was known by Mr Honeyford.

3 Q. Yes, I am coming to that. But in respect of that one,

4 is that one of those that Mr Honeyford put in that you

5 are suggesting, or something that you had heard from

6 somebody else?

7 A. He had suggested it. He had suggested all of it.

8 Q. Okay. And of course Robbie Atkinson you knew as one of

9 your father's drivers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you mention him being there. In the statement it

12 says you saw him there, and of course we all know he was

13 there. It's well accepted.

14 Now, did Constable Honeyford suggest that

15 Robbie Atkinson was there, or did you put that in,

16 having heard it from somebody else?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. And of course Stacey Bridgett -- in the statement you

19 name Stacey Bridgett, and you also name him as somebody

20 who had a bloody nose. Do you remember that being in

21 the statement of 9 May?

22 A. That was in the statement.

23 Q. Lo and behold, Mr Jameson, Stacey Bridgett was there and

24 he had a bloody nose. So that was accurate. Was that

25 one of those names that you say Constable Honeyford put

114

1 there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you never mentioned it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So he added the detail about the bloody nose as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Obviously?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Since you didn't know that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then of course Victoria Clayton, you observe her in

12 the crowd, so the statement says of 9 May, being pushed

13 up the street by the police. Now, is that something

14 that you picked up from somebody else or that

15 Constable Honeyford put in the statement?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. You can't remember. You see, Victoria Clayton was

18 there. She's confirmed that she was there. Does that

19 surprise you?

20 A. No. Not now, no.

21 Q. So what you are really telling this Inquiry is that

22 Constable Honeyford very carefully constructed

23 a statement in respect of which every single person that

24 is named, that he could back it up from some other

25 evidence? Is that what you are suggesting he spent

115

1 those four to five hours doing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did he have any documents with him, can you remember?

4 A. I think he had bits of paper.

5 Q. And did he write this statement in your presence?

6 A. At the end, yeah, I think he did, yeah.

7 Q. Well, did he write it with a pen?

8 A. I am sure he did, yeah.

9 Q. And as he entered each one of these names and suggested

10 what it is you saw them doing, and how you described

11 them, did he say to you, "I'm going to put a name here,

12 Stacey Bridgett, and I am going to say he's got a bloody

13 nose", or did you sit there in silence and did he make

14 it up in front of you?

15 A. No, it's hard to remember. He was just saying that he

16 knew that this is what happened, and things like that.

17 Q. And you sat there for four hours while a police officer

18 constructed a detailed lying statement about all of

19 these people and did nothing?

20 A. Stupidly, yeah.

21 Q. Stupidly. I have to suggest to you, Mr Jameson, that is

22 a preposterous allegation to make about this police

23 officer. That even if he tried to do it, he couldn't

24 have got all those things right.

25 Now, I just want to talk to you about another

116

1 subject for a moment, you will be glad to hear, and that

2 is the route that you took to Mr xxxxxxxxxx, the

3 solicitor.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. You wouldn't have known Mr xxxxxxxxxx, sure you wouldn't?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No. This was a subject on which you sought guidance and

8 help from your father, isn't that correct?

9 A. That's right, yes.

10 Q. In fact you really, personally, had no -- you weren't

11 wanting to see a solicitor at this time?

12 A. I wanted to get the situation sorted out. But...

13 Q. But you have already told us you didn't go home to your

14 mother and said, "I have had a terrible experience,

15 I have spent four hours in a police station and this

16 police officer has made up this statement about all

17 these people"; you didn't do that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But word of this got to your father?

20 A. No, I told my dad.

21 Q. You told him?

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. What did he say?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. He didn't say, "You did what?" No?

117

1 A. He may have said something. I can't remember what he

2 said.

3 Q. Well, so he said, "We had better go and see

4 a solicitor", obviously.

5 A. Yes, I think it would have been him, yes.

6 Q. Yes, because an appointment was made for you to see

7 Mr xxxxxxxxxx on 21 May 1997 with your father. In fact --

8 well, it's [72848], the diary entry. While it's coming

9 up, it's the very last entry, Wednesday, 21 May. Thank

10 you.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Whose diary is this?

12 MR McGRORY: This is a diary that Mr xxxxxxxxxx has provided

13 the Inquiry, his office diary.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

15 MR McGRORY: His personal diary from his work. There is an

16 entry, "10.30 on Wednesday, 21st Bobby Jameson and son".

17 That would suggest it's your father's appointment and he

18 brought you along, obviously?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You accept you didn't ring up Mr xxxxxxxxxx and make the

21 appointment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, the next record in Mr xxxxxxxxxx's office of anything

24 to do with this is on page [72850]. It's on Monday,

25 20 October 1997, or quite some months later. It's

118

1 a note, I suggest, "Bobby Jameson re his son", he was in

2 with you two on to three months ago. That is a record

3 of a telephone call your father made to Mr xxxxxxxxxx's

4 office?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Do you accept that?

7 A. If that is what it is, yes.

8 Q. Do you know why your father was ringing Mr xxxxxxxxxx

9 about you on 20 October 1997?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You don't?

12 A. I can't remember. I assume it was about this inquiry,

13 but I can't remember why exactly.

14 Q. You see, the next day, 21 October, you had the meeting

15 with the DPP. Do you accept that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then the next entry in Mr xxxxxxxxxx's records is on page

18 [72851]. It's a handwritten entry. Now, this is

19 difficult to read, sir, members of the Panel, but I'm

20 interested in lines 6, 7 and 8, beginning:

21 "Was talk about it ..."

22 Yes. Fourth line down. Before I just talk about

23 the contents of this with you, your father obviously had

24 a very keen interest in what was happening about this,

25 obviously. He arranged the solicitor's appointment and

119

1 he phoned the solicitor the day before you were going

2 down to the DPP. You accept those?

3 A. Mm-hm.

4 Q. And he went with you to the DPP?

5 A. He is my dad, yes.

6 Q. And you are only 18, of course?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you had told your father shortly after the

9 experience with Constable Honeyford?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That he had put words in your mouth?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As you have told this Inquiry today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, the fourth line down there, this is a record, by

16 the way, that Mr xxxxxxxxxx took of what your father told

17 him on 22 October, which is the day after the

18 consultation:

19 "Was talk about it, he heard comments of others and

20 reported it in his statement but could not actually

21 remember details of the incident. They were not pleased

22 but feels we must now wait to see what happens."

23 Now, do you accept that that is what your father

24 appears to have told Mr xxxxxxxxxx the day after your

25 consultation with the DPP?

120

1 A. Yes, if that's what's noted, yeah.

2 Q. Yes. Could I have page [17591] on the screen, please?

3 This is a record -- the bottom, on 21 October, if you

4 could begin there. This is a record that you have

5 already seen, I think, of the meeting you had with the

6 DPP, at which your father was present.

7 Now, what it is said you told the DPP is

8 "Timothy Jameson presented as an average 18 year-old

9 youth who was casually dressed. He was reasonably

10 articulate but from the outset of the consultation said

11 that he could not remember what he saw. In particular,

12 he could not distinguish in his mind between what he saw

13 and what people had said to him had happened. After

14 recalling a couple of introductory details, he then

15 stated that he could not remember anything about the

16 fight. He stated, 'I don't know if I saw anything

17 happening, I was drunk, and I had been drunk all that

18 night.' He stated that when he made his statement he was

19 simply agreeing with what he the police said to him, and

20 he put in his statement what they told him."

21 Do you see those words?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's what you told senior Crown Counsel and the DPP on

24 the day of the meeting, the day before you father phoned

25 Mr xxxxxxxxxx. You accused the policeman of putting

121

1 things in the statement that -- things were put in the

2 statement what they said, not what you said?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Can you explain why none of that appears to have been

5 said to Mr xxxxxxxxxx? Mr xxxxxxxxxx was never told by your

6 father on 22 October, the very next day, that the

7 policeman had put words in your mouth?

8 A. Mm-hm.

9 Q. You can't explain that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you not think that if that is in fact what had

12 happened, that that's what your father would have been

13 wanting to tell Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

14 MR McCOMB: I hate to interject, but it really is rather

15 speculative. There's no memo of anything this witness

16 said, what his father may have said or did say.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: He knows his father; that's the point.

18 Otherwise it would be a question one couldn't expect the

19 witness so answer. But he knows his father.

20 MR McCOMB: It is unfortunate that there is no attendance

21 note or memo of the first interview, the interview with

22 Mr Jameson, this Mr Jameson, and Mr xxxxxxxxxx.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we do have, do we not, the fax from the

24 solicitor to the Inquiry of 20 December 2006.

25 MR McCOMB: Indeed. But he's talking from recollection,

122

1 some years after that, and the only other material from

2 which he could deduce or derive any factual assistance

3 for the Inquiry is from this note taken from what

4 Mr Jameson's father said, and I think perhaps, in

5 fairness to this witness --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we are entitled to regard the note of

7 Mr xxxxxxxxxx's file as having evidential value. The

8 weight is a different matter.

9 MR McCOMB: Certainly, yes.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: But Mr McGrory is entitled to ask, since he

11 knows his father, if he had given his account to the

12 father that he has given to us, what he would have

13 expected his father to say. It's, I think, a legitimate

14 question.

15 MR McCOMB: Certainly, but I will stress, the weight of

16 which the --

17 THE CHAIRMAN: We know that.

18 MR McCOMB: It is a matter for the Inquiry.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McGrory.

20 MR McGRORY: You see, the problem, Mr Jameson is, there

21 appears to be no record from Mr xxxxxxxxxx what you told

22 him, only what your father thinks is the situation; do

23 you understand that difficulty?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And your father was present with you in the meeting with

123

1 the DPP the previous day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So he would have been aware of what you were saying

4 about how this fabricated statement came into existence?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, was Mr xxxxxxxxxx the only solicitor you spoke to?

7 A. At the beginning, yes.

8 Q. Did you speak to another solicitor before you saw

9 Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

10 A. No, I don't think so.

11 Q. Are you absolutely sure about that?

12 A. I can't recall. I don't think so.

13 Q. Did you go with your father to see Richard Monteith at

14 all?

15 A. I don't think so.

16 Q. I am going to suggest to you now, Mr Jameson, that you

17 in fact told the Inquiry that you had gone to see

18 Richard Monteith?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. In the immediate aftermath of making this statement?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. At page 48 of your interview with the Inquiry in 2006,

23 on 28 April 2006, and I'm going to be fair to you and

24 read out the whole exchange because I don't want to

25 mislead anybody about what this exchange might mean,

124

1 but, unfortunately, these haven't been scanned on.

2 You were asked by Michael Stephens in that

3 interview --

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Have we got this to put on the --

5 MR McGRORY: If it can be, I would be very grateful. It's

6 page 48 of the Inquiry interview. I don't think this

7 can be done.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the transcript which isn't on the

9 system. I see.

10 MR McGRORY: This is an interview which you had with

11 Michael Stephens of the Inquiry on 28 April 2006. Do

12 you remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were asked at page 48:

15 "Did you go and see a solicitor yourself?"

16 You said:

17 "With my dad, yeah.

18 "And when was that?"

19 You answered:

20 "Probably in the weeks after -- the -- the following week --

21 "So who did you go to see?"

22 And you said "Richard". Okay?

23 You were then asked:

24 "You went to see Mr Monteith?"

25 The answer was:

125

1 "I think so."

2 You were then asked:

3 "Well, you either did or you didn't."

4 And then Mr Monteith interjected and said:

5 "Well, he may have seen another solicitor."

6 A. Mm-hm.

7 Q. Okay? Then Mr Stephens said:

8 "Mr Monteith is indicating that you didn't come to

9 see him, by the sounds of it."

10 Now, is it the truth, Mr Jameson, that you in fact

11 saw Mr Monteith first with your father? Before you saw

12 Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

13 A. I don't think so. I can't remember.

14 Q. Now, at no time have you ever said that you were afraid

15 to give evidence.

16 A. At no time have I...

17 Q. You agree that at no time have you ever said that you

18 were afraid to give evidence?

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 Q. Has anyone ever said to you never to say that, that you

21 were afraid to give evidence?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Has your father said to you, "Never say that you are

24 afraid to give evidence"?

25 A. No.

126

1 Q. Do you know how your father found his way to

2 Mr xxxxxxxxxx?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You are aware, of course, that Mr Monteith is

5 a solicitor instructed by your father on a regular

6 enough basis?

7 A. He may be. I am not too sure who he uses all the time.

8 Q. But, you see, you are not represented by Mr xxxxxxxxxx

9 today, are you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You are represented by Mr Monteith?

12 A. Mr Monteith, yes.

13 Q. And when you were interviewed by the police as a suspect

14 about the remark you're alleged to have made to your

15 father's police guards, do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr Monteith was present?

18 A. He was, yes.

19 Q. Did your father arrange Mr Monteith for you?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Well, he arranged Mr xxxxxxxxxx; is it likely that he

22 arranged Mr Monteith?

23 A. I am not sure. It was a few years after that. I may

24 have done it myself.

25 Q. Was your father very concerned about you giving

127

1 evidence?

2 A. He never mentioned it.

3 Q. Do you accept that had you given evidence at the trial

4 of the murder of Robert Hamill, about what you had

5 allegedly seen in this statement, quite a number of

6 people could have gone to jail for a very long time,

7 some of them for murder?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would it have caused you any concern about how you might

10 be viewed in Portadown as someone who had sent people to

11 jail?

12 A. No. Not particularly, no.

13 Q. Has that got anything to do with the reason you have

14 withdrawn from this statement of 9 May?

15 A. No, absolutely not.

16 Q. Your father is a prominent businessman in Portadown;

17 isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he, at any time, express any concern that it might

20 not be good news for him for you to be a witness in this

21 case?

22 A. Absolutely not, no. No.

23 Q. But you accept that he was involved with you at all

24 times in these subsequent events after the statement was

25 made, in terms of the contact with Mr xxxxxxxxxx and going

128

1 to the DPP?

2 A. He was my dad. He was the only one that I had told

3 about it. So I expected him to be with me, yeah.

4 Q. You would have relied heavily on his advice, would you

5 not?

6 A. On occasions, yeah.

7 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

9 MS DINSMORE: No questions, Mr Chairman.

10 Examination by MR DALY

11 MR DALY: A couple of questions on behalf of the senior

12 coroner, Mr Leckey.

13 Do you recall making a telephone call to Mr Leckey

14 on 6 January 2000?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You don't recall any dealings with him?

17 A. The name is familiar more recently, but I can't

18 remember, no.

19 Q. He is the senior coroner who was trying to arrange an

20 inquest in 2000 into the death of Robert Hamill, and an

21 arrangement was made for you to telephone him by

22 Detective Inspector Irwin. Does that jog your memory?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You were in Scotland at the time?

25 A. Right.

129

1 Q. Do you remember being in Scotland around the year 2000?

2 A. I was away at university, in Edinburgh.

3 Q. Does that help jog your memory in relation to speaking

4 with Mr Leckey?

5 A. It doesn't, no.

6 Q. And if Mr Leckey himself had offered personally to take

7 a statement from you, is that something you would have

8 remembered?

9 A. I can't remember him at all. A telephone conversation

10 or...

11 Q. You can remember nothing about it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I take it then you can't recall telling him that any new

14 statement that he would take from you, that you would

15 simply say that you were unable to remember anything?

16 A. I can't remember saying that to him, no.

17 Q. Or that you expressed fears for your safety to him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You never recall that happening?

20 A. No, I don't remember that, no.

21 Q. Well, can you assist the Inquiry as to why you may have

22 had fears for your safety, if you couldn't remember

23 anything?

24 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's a question asked on the

25 assumption that he did have fears and you haven't

130

1 established from him whether he agrees he had.

2 MR DALY: He is not providing any assistance in relation to

3 that.

4 Effectively, you have no recall in relation to your

5 dealings from Scotland with Mr Leckey?

6 A. No.

7 MR DALY: Thank you.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr --

10 MR McCOMB: Just a couple of questions, sir.

11 Examination by MR McCOMB

12 MR McCOMB: Had you been to the Coach Inn from time to time

13 before this event?

14 A. Yes, on a regular basis.

15 Q. And when you went there, can you say, did you take

16 alcohol?

17 A. Oh yeah.

18 Q. And on the night of 26 or the evening of the 26th, can

19 you give the Inquiry any indication of whether you had

20 alcohol taken that night and how much?

21 A. Yeah, we -- it was just a normal weekend Saturday night.

22 We went out to get drunk and have good craic, that's

23 what we done every weekend.

24 Q. Do you recall what sort of drink you would have taken or

25 did take on this occasion?

131

1 A. Usually beers and then a few cocktails in the cocktail

2 bar in the Coach.

3 Q. Would you be able to say how much you had had or would

4 that be a difficult question to answer?

5 A. Generally to get drunk, seven or eight pints and

6 whatever cocktails I had left with my money. I would

7 have spent it on cocktails, four or five. Probably

8 about four or five cocktails.

9 Q. And by cocktails, what would be the ingredients of those

10 cocktails?

11 A. They were just made up by the Coach, different spirits

12 and stuff.

13 Q. And there was dancing at the Coach, I understand; did

14 you take part in the dancing?

15 A. No, I didn't take any part in dancing.

16 Q. Did you stay with your friends, or friend, whatever it

17 was?

18 A. We stayed by the bar, the cocktail bar. There was no

19 dancing in there.

20 Q. Roughly, for how many hours would you have been in

21 there?

22 A. Probably from half nine until about 1 o'clock.

23 Q. Now, may I just take you to the day that the police came

24 to your house, and wished you to come in to assist them

25 and to make a statement. Do you recall that happening,

132

1 to your mother's house?

2 A. I do, yes. I remember I come home from school and my

3 sister had told me that the police had come up, and they

4 were calling back up, and they happened to come about

5 15/20 minutes after I had come home.

6 Q. Did they give you any indication of how long they might

7 be wishing to discuss matters with you when you got to

8 the station?

9 A. He said just a quick statement, half an hour at the

10 most.

11 Q. You say "he" said that; who said that, Mr Jameson?

12 A. Mr Honeyford.

13 Q. Is that a clear recollection you have?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Mr McGrory asked you whether you would be willing

16 to share your Bebo site. Would you wish to have perhaps

17 the benefit of some advice about that, subject to any

18 directions from the Chair?

19 A. Yes, please.

20 MR McGRORY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

21 MR O'HARE: I wonder, Mr Chairman, there's one question

22 I forgot to ask.

23 Why haven't you signed your Inquiry statement?

24 A. On the advice of my solicitor.

25 MR O'HARE: Mr Monteith.

133

1 Thank you, Mr Chairman.

2 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing else to ask, thank you.

3 Actually there is one other, one I forgot to ask.

4 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD

5 MR UNDERWOOD: Have you read through your statement that was

6 drafted for you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it accurate?

9 A. It's fairly accurate, yes.

10 Q. So but for the advice, you would have signed it, would

11 you?

12 A. Well, after what happened when I signed my last

13 statement in 1997, I am not too keen to sign anything,

14 to be honest.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this, because you

16 were there and we weren't. Just tell us what happened

17 when you got into the room with Mr Honeyford.

18 A. What happened?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Presumably you both sat down, did you?

20 A. Yeah. Just --

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Had he got a pen and papers to write on?

22 A. I don't think he had at the start.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: No? What happened?

24 A. He -- it was -- just started off just normal talk.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Pardon?

134

1 A. It started off just normal talk.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but what about?

3 A. He was just asking what I had seen. I said I hadn't

4 seen anything, and as per my questionnaire, he was in --

5 THE CHAIRMAN: And did you answer his questions?

6 A. Did I answer his questions?

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

8 A. To the best of my ability, yes.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, and then?

10 A. Then he said that he knew that I had more information on

11 the night. I was telling him that I didn't have any

12 extra information to give him, and this is when he was

13 then suggesting what had happened.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

15 A. And this just went on and on, and basically what he was

16 saying was if I couldn't remember what happened, there

17 was a good chance that I was a suspect in the whole

18 Inquiry.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

20 A. It was just -- the whole -- after the whole thing is

21 like a blur.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but tell us about how the document came

23 to be written out. What was happening then?

24 A. Well, he had been in and out of the interview all night.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

135

1 A. He had been suggesting things for hours and hours, and

2 then he just decided it was time to put everything that

3 he had been saying down on to paper.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: And what did he do then?

5 A. He wrote the statement out.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did he tell you what he was writing?

7 A. I think after he had wrote it, he would have -- I can't

8 remember exactly, but...

9 THE CHAIRMAN: You think after he had written it down, he

10 did what?

11 A. Read the statement to me.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. Can you remember what you said to

13 him?

14 A. No.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Not the exact words, but the substance of it?

16 A. No.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: And you must have got home -- well, you tell

18 us, it was getting on for midnight. Had your mother

19 heard him say he would not keep you for half an hour at

20 the most?

21 A. My mum wasn't there when he came back to get me the

22 second time.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: On the night you made the statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Was your mother there when you got back?

136

1 A. I can't remember.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Just think to see if you can remember.

3 A. If she was, she would have been in bed, I am sure.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Very well. Thank you. You are free now to

5 go.

6 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Jameson.

7 (The witness withdrew)

8 MR UNDERWOOD: I think that concludes the evidence for

9 today. We have only two witnesses tomorrow,

10 Stephen Bloomer of whom you have heard, and

11 Mr Iain Carville.

12 I take it we are starting at 10.30 on that basis?

13 THE CHAIRMAN: 10.30, yes.

14 (4.24 pm)

15 (The hearing adjourned until Friday, 13 February 2009 at

16 10.30 am)

137

1 INDEX

2 PAGE

3 MR KENNETH HANVEY (sworn) ........................ 1

5 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 1

7 Examination by MR FERGUSON ................ 10

9 Examination by MR McGRORY ................. 12

11 MRS ELIZABETH HANVEY (sworn) ..................... 23

13 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 23

15 Examination by MR O'HARE .................. 32

17 Examination by MR MCGRORY ................. 33

19 MS GLYNNIS FINNEGAN (sworn) ....................... 36

21 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 36

23 Examination by MR McGRORY ................. 39

25 Examined by MR MALLON ..................... 40

138

2 MR TIMOTHY JAMESON (sworn) ....................... 46

4 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 46

6 Examination by MR O'HARE .................. 69

8 Examination by MR McGRORY ................. 100

10 Examination by MR DALY .................... 129

12 Examination by MR McCOMB .................. 131

14 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 134

139

Robert Hamill Inquiry

Witness Timetable

Transcripts

Transcript

Hearing: 12th February 2009, day 15