Transcript of proceedings

1 24th May 2005





6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: This is a public inquiry established by the

7 then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Right

8 Honourable Paul Murphy, Member of Parliament, under Section

9 44 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998, to implement

10 the recommendations of the retired Canadian Supreme Court

11 Judge Peter Cory, following an investigation by him into a

12 number of deaths which have occurred in Northern Ireland,

13 among them the death of Robert Hamill.

14 This was an investigation which was made in consequence

15 of an agreement between the British and Irish Governments

16 that his death, among others, should be looked at anew.

17 In setting up this Inquiry the Secretary of State said

18 in explaining his purpose:

19 "It is essential that all people in Northern

20 Ireland can have confidence in the integrity

21 of the State and its institutions. Where

22 there are serious allegations of wrong doing

23 it is important that the facts are properly

24 established. It is important that we find a

25 way in Northern Ireland of dealing with the

26 past in the way that recognises the pain

27 associated with it and without allowing it to

28 destroy all hope of a better future".

29 Perhaps we maybe permitted to add a few words of our own

30 about the hope of a better future: Looking back at the past

1 and particularly seeking to appreciate its impact on present

2 experience can help us to a better understanding of the

3 present and of the future. But if all we do is look at the

4 past we are ignoring the present and the future. A society

5 which is so busy remembering only past conflicts that it

6 ignores the present and doesn't anticipate its future, live

7 in a society without hope, because the very essence of hope

8 lies in having a positive attitude to the future.

9 It is our hope that our work in this inquiry may do a

10 little to help people to look forward with hope. If mutual

11 trust and respect can be built among the people of Northern

12 Ireland, hope is likely to be based on a surer foundation.

13 My colleagues with whom I am conducting this inquiry

14 are the Reverend Baroness Richardson, a former Moderator of

15 the Free Churches Council of England and Wales, and Sir John

16 Evans, formally Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall.

17 After practising at the Bar of England and Wales I became

18 first a Circuit Judge and then a High Court Judge. I'm now

19 retired. None of us had ever met or held any communication

20 with one another before our appointment to this Inquiry.

21 More detail about us is available on the Inquiry's website.

22 The Acting Secretary to the Inquiry is Mr Brendan

23 Walsh. The Solicitor to the Inquiry is Miss Zaqia Rashid.

24 They are both civil servants. Prior to their appointments

25 to this Inquiry neither of them had been involved in the

26 course of their work in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

27 The address of the Inquiry is PO Box 51056, London, SW1E

28 6WX. The Inquiry's phone number is 020 7976 0473. Its fax

29 number is 020 7200 9297. Its E-Mail address is

30 Its website address is


2 Our Terms of Reference are as follows:

3 "To inquire into the death of Robert Hamill

4 with a view to determining whether any

5 wrongful act or omission by or within the

6 Royal Ulster Constabulary facilitated his

7 death or obstructed the investigation of it,

8 or whether attempts were made to do so;

9 whether any such act or omission was

10 intentional or negligent; whether the

11 investigation of his death was carried out

12 with due diligence; and to make

13 recommendations".

14 The need for this Inquiry to be set up by Government arises

15 from three facts. Firstly, the agreement between the

16 British and Irish Governments and the recommendations by

17 Justice Cory. Secondly, only an Inquiry set up by

18 Government under an Act of Parliament would have power to

19 pursue the appropriate investigations in relation to Robert

20 Hamill's death. Thirdly, it was necessary that the work of

21 the Inquiry should be facilitated by proper funding.

22 Having said this, it is important to point out that we

23 are independent of Government or any other body or person.

24 We control the conduct of this Inquiry and we decide what

25 evidence we shall receive. The decisions and

26 recommendations which we make following the conclusion of

27 the Inquiry and which will be set out in our report to the

28 Secretary of State, will be ours and ours alone.

29 We are quite independent in all these matters of the

30 Northern Ireland Office. A fact which the officials of the

1 Northern Ireland Office have been at pains to make clear in

2 our dealings with them. Nor shall we allow ourselves to be

3 led or improperly influenced by others, whoever they maybe.

4 I have said this is a public inquiry, this means that

5 our hearings will be conducted in public. There may,

6 exceptionally and only for good reason, be occasions when

7 some particular piece of evidence cannot be heard in public

8 or has to be given in a manner which will preserve the

9 anonymity of the witness. The same considerations may arise

10 in relation to written evidence. Whether any of this will

11 arise once we begin our public hearings I do not yet know.

12 If it is argued in relation to any evidence or witness that

13 they do, the argument will have to be considered and ruled

14 upon as and when it arises.

15 At the outset of work in public we would like to

16 express our sincere condolences to Caroline Maguire, the

17 children of the late Robert Hamill and to his family for his

18 untimely death. As well as being a matter which has given

19 rise to considerable public interest and concern, none of us

20 should lose sight of the fact that Robert Hamill's death was

21 and is a matter of sadness and grief to those who mourn him.

22 We express the confident hope that no one having business

23 before this Inquiry will forget this and that we shall all

24 remember that whether or not Robert Hamill was of one faith

25 or another, he was a fellow human being.

26 We ask that anyone who has any relevant information to

27 contribute should provide it as soon as possible to the

28 Inquiry solicitor. Anyone who has any suggestions to make

29 about a possible line of inquiry is also asked to do the

30 same as soon as possible.

1 These are two important requests because the evidence

2 and the issues to be considered will be prepared and

3 presented by Counsel to the Inquiry. Theirs is a neutral

4 role, as is appropriate for lawyers whose task is not to

5 argue a case but firstly to place before us, all the

6 evidence and considerations which have any relevance to the

7 issues of fact which we shall have to decide, and secondly,

8 to assist us also to decide what recommendations it is

9 appropriate for us to make to the Secretary of State.

10 We should like to stress that we embark upon our task

11 without any preconception as to where the truth lies. We

12 are anxious to do all we reasonably can to discover that.

13 The evidence placed before us may vary in its quality,

14 but we are sure that it is only by considering and weighing

15 all the evidence which has relevance to our Terms of

16 Reference, that we can properly perform our task of seeking

17 after the truth.

18 These proceedings are unlike a civil or criminal trial

19 in which there are two sides with each side calling its own

20 witnesses and advancing its own case. It seems certain that

21 we shall have conflicting evidence upon various issues.

22 Counsel to the Inquiry will present all the evidence and

23 test it so as to assist us to reach our conclusions. From

24 time to time we may ourselves ask questions.

25 Interested parties though will not be permitted, as a

26 matter of course, to question witnesses, still less to call

27 their own witnesses. However, if we are persuaded there is

28 good reason to do so in the case of any particular witness,

29 persons who have been given the right to be heard or their

30 advocates will be allowed in addition to Counsel to the

1 Inquiry, to put questions. Depending on the submissions

2 made to us that permission may or may not relate to all

3 aspects of the witness's evidence. I shall be vigilant to

4 restrict questions to those which are relevant to our Terms

5 of Reference and to prevent repetition and long windedness.

6 Such questions will follow questions by Counsel to the

7 Inquiry who, at their conclusion, will be permitted to ask

8 further questions.

9 If anyone should seek himself to call a witness rather

10 than that he or she should be called by Counsel to the

11 Inquiry, there will need to be very good justification for

12 this. Save for the material protected by public immunity,

13 the statements of the witnesses to be called by Counsel to

14 the Inquiry will be provided to the interested parties or

15 their legal advisers before we begin hearing evidence, to

16 assist them in their preparation.

17 It is obviously important in the interest of fairness

18 to all of them that they shall know, so far as possible,

19 what is the general tenor of the evidence to be adduced. To

20 allow interested parties to call their own witnesses in the

21 absence of a very strong reason would militate against this

22 and might delay proceedings if new matter were to be

23 introduced in this way and it became apparent, as a

24 consequence, that a witness already called might have had

25 something to say on the point and so had to be recalled.

26 Although I have said copies of witness statements will

27 be provided to interested parties, it must be understood

28 that some of them may have to be redacted by omitting

29 identifying details and, in any event, statements will only

30 be provided on the basis that their contents are not to be

1 divulged, save for the purpose of taking instructions in the

2 period running up to the hearing of oral evidence and it

3 becomes clear at the hearing that the statement will be part

4 of the evidence presented to the Inquiry.

5 An undertaking to this effect will be required from

6 interested parties and their legal advisers as a

7 pre-condition to the provision of statements. The form of

8 undertaking which will have to be signed, is available from

9 the Secretary to the Inquiry. In general, witnesses'

10 addresses will not be included in their statements. If the

11 address of any witness is sought, application should be made

12 to the Solicitor to the Inquiry with an explanation of why

13 it is required. The application will be considered and a

14 decision made upon it.

15 Witnesses who give evidence to this Inquiry will not be

16 obliged, if they chose not to, and though they may receive

17 advice about it, the decision is theirs, to answer any

18 question, the answer to which might incriminate them in

19 respect of any criminal or police disciplinary offence of

20 which they had not been convicted.

21 Once the hearing of evidence is concluded, or as its

22 conclusion draws close, we shall consider whether to proceed

23 straight away after its conclusion to submissions or whether

24 to allow a few days interval to enable those who will be

25 making them to complete their preparation. Counsel to the

26 Inquiry will address us first, that will be followed by any

27 submissions made by or on behalf of interested parties.

28 When the submissions are concluded, Counsel to the Inquiry

29 will be permitted to make such further submissions as arise

30 out of them.

1 We are very conscious of the many emotions to which the

2 death of Robert Hamill has given rise, and we repeat that

3 our overriding concern in this Inquiry will be to do the

4 best with all we can to ascertain where the truth lies to

5 consider the issues raised by our Terms of Reference.

6 We set out the principal issues to which evidence will

7 be addressed and which we shall have to consider:

8 (i) Could and should the RUC have done more

9 to avert Robert Hamill's death by way of

10 better policing provisions on the night of

11 26th, 27th April 1997?

12 (ii) If so, was the failure to make that

13 provision negligent or deliberate?

14 (iii) Could and should the RUC officers at

15 the scene of the attack on Robert Hamill have

16 done anything or refrained from doing

17 something, so as to prevent his death?

18 (iv) If so, was the act or omission negligent

19 or deliberate?

20 (v) Could and should RUC officers present at

21 the scene have done more to identify and

22 facilitate the prosecution of the

23 perpetrators?

24 (vi) If so, was the omission negligent or

25 deliberate?

26 (vii) Did any RUC officer attempt to obstruct

27 the investigation of the death of Robert

28 Hamill?

29 (vii) If so, was any such attempt successful?

30 (ix) Could and should the RUC have done more

1 to investigate firstly Robert Hamill's death

2 and secondly any attempted obstruction into

3 the investigation itself?

4 (x) If so, was the omission negligent or

5 deliberate?

6 (xi) What recommendations should be made?

7 There will no doubt be other issues.


9 I come next to the proceedings: Subject to the need to

10 retain some flexibility to the circumstances which may

11 arise, our aim is to sit on Tuesdays to Fridays, generally

12 from 10.30 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon, breaking

13 off for lunch from 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock. On Fridays we may

14 sit earlier so as to rise earlier. We propose to sit for

15 four weeks at a time with a one week break between each four

16 week stint. As we come up to Christmas we may go over or

17 under a four week stint. We shall not resume after

18 Christmas until Tuesday, 24th January.

19 The hearings are expected to take place in Belfast. At

20 this stage it is difficult to say precisely when the hearing

21 of evidence will begin but it will not be before Tuesday,

22 15th November, bearing in mind the time needed to enable

23 Solicitor and Counsel to the Inquiry to gather and prepare

24 the evidence and for interested parties to consider it. We

25 shall consider whether, in order to assist interested

26 parties, the witness statements can be provided in tranches.

27 Next I come to our own preparations: To prepare

28 ourselves for the Inquiry we visited Portadown on 26th

29 January this year, when we walked round the streets forming

30 the crossroads where or near to which Robert Hamill received

1 his injuries. We looked particularly at sight lines from

2 various points. We also drove up to the grounds of the

3 Rugby Football Club to see where they lie in relation to the

4 town centre.

5 We did not announce our visit because we wished to see

6 the site without attracting attention and without

7 distraction. However, if we are asked to do so, we shall

8 make a further visit to Portadown in the presence of the

9 interested parties and their legal advisers to see whatever

10 they wish to draw to our attention.

11 We shall also wish to see the Land Rover which was used

12 on the night in question or one similar, to see what would

13 be seen from it in different locations and what could be

14 heard inside it of what was going on outside.

15 We have read or will soon have completed reading the

16 following books and articles:

17 Making sense of the troubles by David McKittrick.

18 A history of Northern Ireland 1920 to 1996, by Thomas

19 Hennessey.

20 Arming the Protestants: Formation of the Ulster Special

21 Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary, 1920 to

22 1927, by Michael Farrell.

23 Drumcree: The Orange Order's Last Stand, by Chris Ryder.

24 Standoff, by Gordon Lucy.

25 Orange Citadel: The History of Orangeism in Portadown, by

26 David Jones.

27 From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the

28 Irish Troubles, by Niall O'Dochartaigh.

29 Northern Protestants: An Unsettled People, by Susan McKay.

30 Political Rituals: Loyalist Parades in Portadown, by

1 Dominic Bryans, TG Frazer and Seamus Dunn.

2 And those parts of Cameron and Scarman reports which deal

3 with the general background in Northern Ireland against

4 which the incidents being investigated in their inquiries

5 occurred.

6 We are all comparative strangers to Northern Ireland

7 and in particular to Portadown and its ethos. I had never

8 visited Northern Ireland until after my appointment to this

9 Inquiry. Bearing this in mind, we have sought to learn

10 something of the troubled background against which the

11 events of the 27th April 1997 and subsequent investigations

12 were played out and the continuing turmoil after that, in

13 order, as we hope, the better to understand the evidence

14 placed before us. Anyone who is familiar with the material

15 we have read or wishes to read it, will see that the

16 publications were not all written from the same standpoint.

17 We shall also read the witness statements before the

18 hearing of evidence begins. When we come to the fact

19 finding evidence we shall take account both of what we hear

20 from witnesses and what they say in their statements.

21 Whether in the case of any witness we gain more assistance

22 from his or her oral evidence or written statement about a

23 particular matter, is something we shall not decide upon

24 until we begin to consider our findings. In an Inquiry such

25 as this, there are no formal rules of evidence and we shall

26 also take under consideration hearsay evidence, though we

27 shall of course remind ourselves of the limited value which

28 hearsay may often, but not necessarily, have.

29 This concludes my remarks at this morning's session.

30 If there are any submissions or applications to be made at

1 this stage we shall hear them at 2 o'clock. If there are, it

2 would be helpful if those who wish to make them would inform

3 briefly either the Solicitor or Counsel to the Inquiry of

4 their substance. I stress submissions or applications will

5 have to be relevant to the work of this Inquiry.

6 If there is an afternoon session it cannot be filmed or

7 photographed.




11 On resuming 2.00:

12 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. There have been a number of

13 expressions of interests since your opening remarks, may I

14 attempt to marshall them.

15 Mr McGrory is here on behalf of the family and has no

16 submissions to make and has stayed out of courtesy to the

17 panel for this afternoon.

18 Mr Magill is here for Mr X, as I shall call that

19 witness for the moment, and Mr Daly is for Mrs X, as I shall

20 call her for the moment. For the avoidance of doubt I have

21 asked to be handed up on pieces of paper the names of those

22 witnesses for the panel's sake, they do have submissions to

23 make.

24 The next in the running order is Maggie O'Connor who is

25 here on behalf of the Committee for the Administration of

26 Justice, she again wishes to makes submissions. To her

27 right Miss Jane Winter on behalf of the British and Irish

28 Rights Watch.

29 The only other expression of interest for this

30 afternoon as I understand it, is on behalf of the Northern

1 Ireland Human Rights Commission and I have been asked to say

2 on their behalf, they have indicated as a consequence of its

3 continuing interest in the case and related matters that

4 they will be making submissions to the Inquiry in due

5 course.

6 So perhaps I can invite those who have applications to

7 make to do that.

8 MR MCGRORY: If it please Sir, members of the panel, Mr Chairman,

9 my name is McGrory, I am the solicitor on record for the

10 Hamill family and I seek really to give my appearance today.

11 We had a useful administration meeting with Counsel to the

12 Inquiry and Solicitor to the Inquiry already, and we will

13 just take it from there. I would like to put that on the

14 record.

15 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Thank you. Mr Magill?

16 MR MAGILL: I would like to introduce myself, I am a barrister

17 instructed by Ciaran Rafferty solicitors and we act on

18 behalf of Mr X at this stage and we have no submissions at

19 this point.

20 MR DALY: I appear Sir in relation to Mrs X, who appears in the

21 Cory Report. I am led by Mr Tracey QC and we are instructed

22 by Arthur J Downey and Company, Solicitors.

23 Again we would like to put on record our appearance

24 today. An application has been submitted to the Inquiry in

25 relation to representation on behalf of our client and also

26 in relation to funding which are interlinked aspects. There

27 has been no response as yet in relation to that application

28 and much...

29 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There will be a response in due course.

30 MR DALY: In due course, well then perhaps at this stage it is

1 not appropriate to comment further other than to have the

2 appearance on record and to have the Tribunal note the

3 application.

4 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Miss O'Connor.

5 MISS O'CONNOR: Thank you very much for hearing us. My name is

6 Maggie O'Connor for the Committee of Administration of

7 Justice. There are a number of issues we would like to put

8 on record. The Committee on the Administration of Justice

9 have been active for quite a while in seeking an independent

10 judicial public inquiry into the killing of Robert Hamill.

11 We are an independent cross-community human rights

12 group and we have been working on the broad human rights

13 platform from 1981 to give you some idea of the background.

14 We warmly welcome the establishment of this Inquiry and its

15 commitment to finding the truth about all the circumstances

16 surrounding the murder of Robert Hamill, and the

17 investigations that followed his death.

18 CAJ wants to co-operate as fully as possible with every

19 stage of the Inquiry and we will, along with many others

20 here in Northern Ireland and further afield, obviously be

21 monitoring developments quite closely.

22 We intend to respond in writing to the statement issued

23 today by the Inquiry, but by way of preliminary remarks we

24 would just like to draw the following issues to the

25 attention of yourselves: We believe that the list of core

26 issues developed by the Inquiry seems very appropriate but

27 doesn't perhaps go far enough.

28 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: May I just say this about that, I did say

29 there would be more issues. The list of issues was not

30 intended to be exhausted. If you say there are other issues

1 which ought to be considered then the best course will be to

2 put them into writing and give them to Mr Underwood so that

3 he can consider them.

4 MISS O'CONNOR: We would wish to do that. I think if we just

5 wish to submit to you today that again just very briefly...

6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Forgive me, I think now is not the time and

7 the way it is best done is to assist Counsel to the Inquiry.

8 If at the hearing the Committee for the Administration of

9 Justice wishes to make representations, then it should apply

10 in the usual way for the right to be heard and it will be

11 helpful if it makes that application to say what it is that

12 your body thinks it will be able to contribute to the

13 deliberations of the Inquiry, because it should not be

14 assumed that anyone, even though he maybe representative of

15 bodies such as yours, can simply come along and say well I

16 want to make representations.

17 So if you wish to make representations and not simply

18 make suggestions to Counsel to the Inquiry, it will be much

19 better and helpful if you set out on paper why it is that

20 you wish to make representations, in other words what

21 contribution you wish to make and say you can make.

22 MISS O'CONNOR: Certainly you would wish to receive written

23 submissions from us on any of the other points in relation

24 to the issues...

25 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: I think before you make submissions, I would

26 like to know first what it is you wish to contribute. It

27 maybe, I do understand, difficult to say what it is that you

28 wish to contribute without saying something about your

29 submissions, but they are two separate stages.

30 MISS O'CONNOR: I think we would wish to address the Inquiry on

1 this, it is twofold, one to perhaps that it might be helpful

2 to the Inquiry that there are certain lines of inquiry that

3 obviously having been so closely involved in the case over

4 the years that...

5 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Those in the first place will be better

6 addressed to Mr Underwood, and he will tell you whether or

7 not they are lines of Inquiry he intends to pursue. If

8 there is more you can contribute than simply saying you

9 ought to look at so and so. If you have information or

10 evidence which shows why he should look at so and so and

11 what might be the result, again that will be very welcome.

12 MISS O'CONNOR: Thank you very much.


14 MISS WINTER: I am Jane Winter, I am the Director of the British

15 Irish Rights Watch and we are an independent

16 non-governmental organisation that monitor the human rights

17 dimension of the conflict and peace process in Northern

18 Ireland. We take no position on the outcome of that peace

19 process and our services are available regardless of

20 religious political or community affiliations.

21 Bearing in mind the remarks that you have just made

22 Sir, I intend to make written submissions to Mr Underwood

23 about the list of issues, where we also have concerns from

24 what you have said today, on issues that we believe are

25 germane and not yet on that list, but I am hopeful that once

26 we have made representations they will be.

27 I don't anticipate we will be asking for rights of

28 representation before the Tribunal but we are obviously here

29 to help in any way we can, having already made the very

30 detailed submission to yourselves.

1 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: As I have said, if you make them, your

2 suggestions in the first place to Mr Underwood and then if

3 his answer satisfies you, so be it, if it doesn't, then you

4 will be able to, if you wish, apply for leave to make

5 representations to us.

6 MISS WINTER: Thank you very much. There are two other issues we

7 would also like to make submissions about, immunity from

8 prosecution, in particular in relation to holders of high

9 public office which we believe maybe at issue in this

10 particular investigation.

11 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I help you on that, we have not received

12 any applications for immunity. If and when we do, they will

13 have to be considered. It is not within our province to say

14 there should or should not be immunity. We can, if we think

15 it appropriate, make recommendations either that they are or

16 they are not granted, but we have to wait until someone does

17 apply for immunity otherwise we are simply dealing with what

18 is merely hypothetical.

19 MISS WINTER: I understand that Sir, but I think there are some

20 principals that this case raises which you might wish to

21 consider. You may of course reject our submissions, we

22 would like to make them in any case.

23 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: If there are applications for immunity from

24 any people, I shall have to consider them and it maybe that

25 I shall have a hearing in London to deal with them or it may

26 come to that if my decision is not to the applicant's

27 liking. At one stage or another I should be seeking

28 assistance from Mr Underwood, and so that in the first

29 place, why not put your principals to him to see whether he

30 agrees with them and is prepared, if the matter does arise,

1 to put them before us.

2 MISS WINTER: Thank you I will certainly do that.

3 There are two other small matters; one is that I

4 understand that it is hoped that the process will be largely

5 paperless and I am concerned both in relation to the Hamill

6 family with whom we have worked ever since the time of

7 Robert's death, but also in relation to other members of the

8 public, that that may make these proceedings somewhat less

9 accessible than otherwise. I hope that some provision will

10 be made.

11 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: May I just deal firstly with the Hamill

12 family, have you spoken to Mr McGrory about this and asked

13 whether he thinks his clients will be at a disadvantage?

14 MISS WINTER: I have had a brief conversation with him but...

15 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Because he has not so far said that he doesn't

16 want it to be paperless and he might be in the best position

17 to know.

18 MR MCGRORY: In ease of Miss Winter, this issue was discussed at

19 the administrative meeting to which I referred earlier and I

20 have not spoken to her since then. In her ease I might just

21 say that to the panel and I will discuss it with her later.

22 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I just say this, I hope you won't think I

23 am being harsh, best to leave the Hamill family in the

24 capable care of Mr McGrory as far as papers or no papers.

25 But what about other people?

26 MISS WINTER: I am concerned that not everybody has the

27 technology or the resources, financial resources to access

28 information on a purely paperless basis. I hope you will

29 give some consideration. I am not suggesting that it should

30 not be generally speaking a paperless process, I am all in

1 favour of that, but I hope that there will be some way of

2 making sure that other people who cannot interact with the

3 paperless process will nonetheless be able to get

4 information should they need it, should they want a copy of

5 the transcript of the hearing.

6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Well now, how do you envisage this working?

7 You see there maybe hundreds, it maybe thousands of pages of

8 paper, one couldn't say to everyone who said well I'm quite

9 interested in what the Inquiry is doing, it couldn't be

10 really expected to provide all that number of pages to that

11 person.

12 MISS WINTER: It maybe possible to make a copy available in a

13 public place if people could consult if they would like to.

14 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There is that difficulty about that. Until it

15 is clear that the evidence will be before the Inquiry, those

16 documents must remain confidential in the hands of those who

17 legitimately receive them so that there will be no question

18 in those circumstances of making them public knowledge.

19 MISS WINTER: But the transcript of the proceedings presumably

20 will be on the internet?

21 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: The transcript of the proceeding will be.

22 MISS WINTER: All I am suggesting is that not everybody has

23 access to the internet and it will be, I am simply asking

24 that you give consideration to making it available in some

25 other way, if there is a demand for it. I maybe wrong in

26 thinking there is.

27 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: It is come the hearing that you are hoping? I

28 will see what Mr Underwood can say about that to help us.

29 MISS WINTER: Lastly I wanted to say that, I should have said

30 that at the outset, how much we welcome this Inquiry as well

1 and we welcome your assurances concerning the independence

2 of the Inquiry. But in light of the process of redaction

3 which was carried out to Judge Cory's report by the

4 Secretary of State, we would ask you to resist any attempt

5 at over-zealous or inappropriate redaction of your own final

6 report which is what we think happened in Judge Cory's case.

7 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I again help you. Our report, because

8 this is the provision of the statute, goes to the Secretary

9 of State. It goes to the Secretary of State in an

10 unredacted form. After that it is a matter for the

11 Secretary of State whether he publishes it, how much he

12 publishes, whether there are any redactions. Common sense

13 suggests that he could not simply not publish the report in

14 view of the reasons which have led to the setting up of this

15 Inquiry. But if you are anxious about redactions then I

16 think your appropriate or the appropriate recipient of your

17 representations is the Secretary of State himself.

18 MISS WINTER: I will.

19 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: We have no control over that.

20 MISS WINTER: I am sure you have influence Sir?

21 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: I very much doubt whether it really is

22 appropriate or helpful to us to say we think there should

23 not be any redactions.

24 MISS WINTER: I can see that you may wish to make redactions

25 yourselves for perfectly good reason, what I am concerned

26 about is many many redactions made to the point which means

27 it will be unable to understand the report which is what

28 happened to Judge Cory's report.

29 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There will not be any redactions by us, it

30 maybe that we shall have to conclude that certain

1 information should not be made public. There maybe

2 information which is covered by public interest immunity if

3 we so rule. Nonetheless that will be part of the material

4 which we are entitled to consider in making our report and

5 there will, I assure you, be no redactions to our report.

6 If there are redactions in anything that the Secretary of

7 State publishes that must be for him, that is why I say if

8 you are anxious about redactions, your appropriate course is

9 to make your representations to the Secretary of State

10 because he will receive from us an unredacted report. Does

11 that assist you?

12 MISS WINTER: It has, thank you very much.

13 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes. I am very grateful if I may say

14 so, to everyone for their courteous and civilised response

15 to the opening remarks. I sincerely hope that is a

16 pre-cursor of the way in which the entire Inquiry will now

17 run. Can I also say that Miss Anderson and I very warmly

18 welcome any submissions and any lines of Inquiry that

19 anybody wishes to feed into our process. Can I say finally

20 that we will of course consider everything that has been

21 said today and in particular we will consider what

22 Miss Winter says about the possibility of placing in the

23 public library the transcript as it comes out.

24 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Does that satisfy your anxieties?

25 MISS WINTER: It would, certainly.

26 MR UNDERWOOD: Unless there is anything else I can add, thank you

27 very much.