- - - - - - - - - - PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF ROBERT HAMILL - - - - - - - - - - Held at: Interpoint 20-24 York Street Belfast on Friday, 30th January 2009 commencing at 10.00 am Day 12 1 Friday, 30th January 2009 2 (10.00 am) 3 (Proceedings delayed) 4 (10.30 am) 5 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning, sir. Could Mr Honeyford be 6 recalled, please? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Before Mr Underwood cross-examines 8 Mr Honeyford -- I think it is your turn now, isn't it? 9 MR ADAIR: Yes, sir. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to say something about some of 11 the cross-examination or some of the questioning we saw 12 yesterday afternoon. 13 Do sit down, Mr Honeyford. 14 MR EDWARD HONEYFORD (continued) 15 THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to have been forgotten that 16 questioning is not intended to be a repetition of what 17 has gone before. It is not intended to be a vehicle for 18 comment or for making a speech under the guise of 19 questions. I don't want to see any more of that. 20 If that should happen, then I am afraid I shall have 21 to be more rigorous in what I allow. I have been giving 22 liberty to ask questions without requiring that full 23 notice is given to Mr Underwood. That may have to 24 change, but I hope it won't, because I hope what I have 25 said will be taken note of by those who have been at 1 1 fault. 2 Yes, Mr Adair? 3 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR 4 MR ADAIR: With that ringing in my ears, sir, I will -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: It wasn't directed against you, Mr Adair. 6 MR ADAIR: Now, Mr Honeyford, we know that you were, in 7 various roles, a detective and a police officer for 8 something like 30 years over the period of the troubles 9 and so on in this jurisdiction. 10 A. That is correct, Mr Chairman, yes. 11 Q. Would I be right in saying just -- again, this is just 12 a snapshot rather than looking at it in detail -- would 13 there have been any surprise to you to turn up in court 14 on any particular day and to find, for example, that one 15 day a solicitor and barrister were representing an IRA 16 man, the next day they were representing a UVF man and 17 so on? 18 A. Yes, that would have been the case, Mr Chairman, yes. 19 Q. So while the community undoubtedly was polarised in 20 terms of their feelings about each other to a large 21 extent, when they came down to the courts, the legal 22 representation was in terms of legal representatives 23 representing whoever the people were to the best of 24 their ability robustly? 25 A. Yes, very much so. 2 1 Q. Now, equating that then and by analogy going to your 2 role as a police officer, did you, in your role as 3 a police officer, draw any distinction between how 4 robustly you would investigate a crime where a Catholic 5 had been injured or a Protestant had been injured? 6 A. Certainly not, Mr Chairman, no. 7 Q. We know in this case that there have been allegations 8 made -- and I will come to this in a moment -- by 9 a number of people concerning you and what you did. 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. Am I right in saying -- and again, this is very much in 12 general terms -- over the years of your experience and 13 going to court, and I think, Mr Honeyford, while we may 14 all be aware of this, were you in court on a very, very, 15 very regular occurrence giving evidence? 16 A. Yes. I would have been there at the Crown Court level 17 on a monthly basis throughout the whole time of the 18 troubles. 19 Q. You have been cross-examined, indeed, by myself 1, 2, 50 20 or 100 times and by numerous other counsel and 21 solicitors over the years? 22 A. Yes, I do. I recognise quite a few of the faces here. 23 Q. The allegations that have been made -- and I am not 24 going to go through them in any detail -- essentially 25 where the allegation is that you have either 3 1 intimidated, duressed or put words into the mouths of 2 people, were they regular allegations or is this 3 something unique to this case? 4 A. No, they would be regular allegations, yes. 5 Q. Was there any hierarchy of where the allegations came 6 from, for example, the Protestants and Catholics? Were 7 the allegations made by one side or by both sides? 8 A. I would say both sides, Mr Chairman. 9 Q. Now, we know that in this case, for example, if we go to 10 the specifics of this case, and I want to ask you what 11 your comment is, what your view is about this. 12 We know in this case, for example -- and this is in 13 general terms -- that the Catholics were alleging the 14 police were inactive and essentially did not pursue the 15 investigation as robustly as they should have. 16 Do you know that's in general terms the allegation? 17 A. I do, Mr Chairman, yes. 18 Q. We know, for example, the Protestants say -- for 19 example, the Protestant witnesses say that, contrary to 20 what the Catholics say, that the police, in fact, put 21 words in their mouth to try to convict the Protestants 22 of assaulting the Catholics? 23 A. That is so, Mr Chairman, yes. 24 Q. We know also that the Protestant suspects, as we heard 25 yesterday, relating to Mr Hobson, allege that the 4 1 police, far from being inactive and pursuing robustly 2 the investigation, were harassing the suspects to get 3 them to make admissions about injuring the Catholics. 4 A. That would appear to be the case indeed. 5 Q. Now, that might seem strange to people outside this 6 jurisdiction. Do you find anything strange about that? 7 A. No, that would be typical of what would have happened in 8 this jurisdiction. 9 Q. Now, I want to take you -- and I am going to just deal 10 with it very briefly -- to your role in the 11 investigation of the murder of Robert Hamill. 12 At that time, you were stationed in -- were you 13 stationed in J Division? 14 A. I was stationed in J Division, Portadown. 15 Q. We have heard that covers Banbridge, Lurgan and 16 Portadown? 17 A. And Craigavon. 18 Q. And Craigavon. As far as your role in this 19 investigation is concerned, were you hands-on, if you 20 know what I mean by that expression, or were you brought 21 in to carry out certain tasks? 22 A. I would have been hands-on, I believe. I did different 23 roles. I did searches. I did witness interviews. 24 I did suspect interviews. I did searches. So I suppose 25 that would have to be hands-on. I hope I am not 5 1 misleading anybody by saying that. 2 Q. You were designated then tasks to do by presumably, 3 amongst others, Detective Inspector Irwin? 4 A. That would be so, yes. 5 Q. Now, if we deal then with your contact with 6 Mr Jameson -- and again, I am not -- you have heard the 7 allegations that are made against you in respect of the 8 statement -- 9 A. I have, yes. 10 Q. -- that you took from him, the second statement? 11 Without going through the details of it, did you 12 have that information within your possession at the time 13 that statement was made? 14 A. Certainly not, Mr Chairman. 15 Q. From any source? 16 A. From any source whatsoever. 17 Q. We know that you then went to the consultation with the 18 PPS in Belfast. 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 Q. The DPP as it was then. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Amongst those present were Mr Kerr and Mr Davison. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It may seem a small point in itself, but can you 25 remember, after Mr Jameson said what he did say about 6 1 the contents of the statement, the reaction in physical 2 terms of Mr Davison from the DPP? 3 A. I remember Mr Davison looked over at me. As I said 4 earlier in evidence, I was just on the sidelines. 5 He just basically rolled the eyes like that, you know. 6 There was no verbal comment from him. It was just 7 a roll of the eyes. 8 Q. The impression I get from that is, "Here we go again". 9 A. Yes. "Another load of nonsense." 10 Q. Finally in relation to Mr Jameson, if you had believed 11 that he was involved or suspected he was involved in the 12 assault or murder of Mr Hamill or anybody else, would 13 you have arrested him and interviewed him under caution? 14 A. That would have been the case. I certainly wouldn't 15 have dealt with it any other way. 16 Q. I want to ask you briefly about Mr Wright. 17 You have heard the allegations that Mr Wright has 18 made, essentially, that the words were put into his 19 mouth? 20 A. Yes, I am aware of those allegations. 21 Q. Is there any truth in that, first of all? 22 A. There is no truth in it whatsoever. 23 Q. When was the -- I don't think you attended the 24 consultation that Mr Kerr and others had with Mr Wright 25 in -- I think it was October of 1997. 7 1 A. That is correct. I wasn't at that. 2 Q. You are aware that it was put to you yesterday, you 3 know, that, for example, a word was pointed out to you 4 at the end of the statement concerning "conscience". 5 Do you remember being asked about that? 6 A. I do, yes. 7 Q. Do you remember it was said to you that it was something 8 of a coincidence that Wright had said at the end of his 9 statement that he is making it because of his conscience 10 bothering him and the fact that during the course of 11 your interview with the Ombudsperson the word 12 "conscience" had again arisen? 13 Do you remember that? 14 A. I remember that. 15 Q. It was suggested in terms that really that was you 16 making this up on the part of Mr Wright. 17 Do you remember that? 18 A. I remember that. 19 Q. Could we turn up page [17633], please? The reference 20 I have is just [17633]. It is an opinion from Mr Kerr 21 consequent to his consultation with Mr Wright. 22 Now, I want to ask you whether you are aware, first 23 of all, of the contents of this? 24 A. No, I haven't seen this before. 25 Q. Yes. It arises really out of what occurred yesterday 8 1 and the suggestion that was made. I want to ask your 2 comment. Perhaps stating the obvious, but I want to ask 3 your comment about this. You will see where Mr Kerr 4 says: 5 "Jonathan Wright. 6 "I saw Mr Wright with Mr Davison in attendance. 7 Mr Wright made two statements to the police. The first, 8 dated 11 May 1997, was a general statement of his 9 movements and his companions on the evening in 10 question. In it he denies all knowledge of any 11 information in relation to the incident. He made 12 his second statement on 15 May 1997. I specifically 13 asked him why he had decided to make a second statement. 14 He stated that he was distressed by the death and he 15 decided it was important to tell the truth." 16 Now, were you there prompting those words into his 17 mouth? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Or had you told him at any stage to repeat this business 20 about, in effect, his conscience? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you aware, as the allegation has been made against 23 you yesterday in this Tribunal about what you did with 24 Mr Wright, that he made a statement of withdrawal on 25 13th March 1998? 9 1 A. I became aware of that, but I can't remember when. 2 Q. Well, in fairness to you, are you aware of the contents 3 of it? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Could we put up [17295], please? Now, you know that 6 yesterday it was suggested to you in terms that it was 7 you who had put words into his mouth and intimidated or 8 duressed him to make the statement. 9 A. Uh-huh. That's -- 10 Q. I am not stating it -- I am stating it in general terms. 11 This is the statement he made, Mr Honeyford, on 12 13th March 1998. It says: 13 "I have made two statements to Detective Honeyford 14 in relation to a beating which happened in Portadown 15 town centre in the early hours of the 27th April 1997. The 16 first statement, dated the 11th May 1997 is the correct 17 statement, the second statement that I gave is not 18 correct. At the time, I made it up as I was afraid and 19 I now know that it is known by others in Portadown what 20 I said in the second statement and because of that 21 fact, I am not prepared to give evidence in court, 22 regarding the second statement." 23 You haven't seen that before, have you? 24 A. I might have seen it, but if I did, I don't recall it, 25 so I can't ... I have read it there now on the screen, 10 1 so I accept it has been made. 2 Q. We can see what he was saying as to why he was changing 3 his view. You can see that now? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When did you first become aware that Mr Wright was 6 making any allegation against you? 7 A. Probably after he was with the DPP. Somebody might have 8 informed me or brought it to my attention, but there was 9 certainly never, from what I recall, any official 10 complaint made against the police and it certainly 11 wasn't investigated by any authorities in respect of 12 that. 13 Q. Well, Mr Honeyford, we know from reading what we have 14 seen from both Mr Davison's consultation notes and 15 Mr Kerr's opinion -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- that no allegation was made against you by Wright. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So can you say when it was, in terms of what year it 20 was, that you first became aware that it was now being 21 suggested that you had something to do with the making 22 of the statement? 23 A. I would say it was years later probably, maybe some time 24 almost when I was nearly retired and being asked to 25 attend for interviews by the different ones that adopted 11 1 this. 2 Q. Now, the final thing I want to ask you about, 3 Mr Honeyford, is in relation to your knowledge of how 4 Detective Chief Superintendent McBurney operated as 5 a policeman? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You have already told us that -- I think you have 8 described him as being -- it was "hands-on"? 9 A. That would be the words I would use, yes. 10 Q. I am not being at all flippant when I say this, but, as 11 a member of the public, for example, one has ideas in 12 one's mind about the Inspector Morse-type policeman who 13 wants to get the bad guys but perhaps does not fill his 14 notebook in. Do you know that general conception? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. We have the other policeman who is more concerned or 17 equally concerned about filling in his notebook, what 18 time he arrives, what time he leaves and what he does 19 and recording everything? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, in the scale of that sort of contrast, where do you 22 put Detective Chief Superintendent McBurney? 23 A. McBurney would be very much, Mr Chairman, hands-on. 24 It is very hard for me to put into the context how 25 much writing a man of that calibre would be expected to 12 1 put in a notebook in a day, and I suppose there is times 2 he does not have things covered that he should have, but 3 I don't believe he would be one for excess writing. 4 He would be more for getting the job done and 5 following enquiries. Certainly a man who I honestly 6 believed, and have always believed, feels for each and 7 every injured party, and he really does put his heart 8 and soul into investigations, long, long hours and, like 9 a lot of us, had very little home time as a result of 10 it. He always dedicated his life to the investigating 11 of serious crime. 12 Q. Did he make any distinction between whether the victim 13 was a Catholic or Protestant? 14 A. Absolutely not, Mr Chairman. 15 MR ADAIR: Thank you. 16 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD 17 MR UNDERWOOD: Just one matter arising out of questions 18 yesterday, Mr Honeyford. 19 You told me yesterday that at the point when you 20 were interviewing Mr Jameson you went to see the senior 21 detectives to ask about anonymity. He had, by that 22 stage, told you names of people he said had done the 23 kicking. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you recall, did you tell the senior detectives what 13 1 those names were when you went to see them at that 2 point? 3 A. I don't know. I can't remember whether I did or not. 4 I would have certainly said, "Look, he has named 5 different ones that were involved at various stages of 6 this assault". 7 I remember saying to him, "Look, the problem this 8 witness has is his identity. I don't see him making 9 a statement until that's sorted out. I can't give him 10 that guarantee", and I asked for guidance and I got 11 guidance. I was given a direction to take a certain 12 course of action, which I did. 13 Q. Let me see how far I can push your memory on this. 14 You also told me yesterday that this was the first 15 occasion on which those names had come to, at least, 16 your attention. 17 A. I believe so, yes. 18 Q. Doing the best you can, thinking yourself back into that 19 position, here it is. A serious assault has become 20 a murder. You had got no names until then. You have 21 a witness who is suddenly giving you names. You have 22 the senior detectives, quite late at night, hanging on 23 in the police station. Are you likely to have gone and 24 said to them, "Right. I will get the statement off 25 them. We need to worry about anonymity, but here are 14 1 some names to play with"? 2 A. I don't know. I am sure I would have mentioned the 3 names. If Mr McBurney said, "How have you got on? 4 What's come out of it?" I would be briefing him. If he 5 wants to know what type of statement he is going to 6 make, what has he to say, I would have to say to him, 7 "He has named several". I do not think I would have 8 gone into each individual, but, certainly, as much as 9 I've been a detective -- and really my whole career from 10 1977 to 2002 was based in Portadown -- there's a few of 11 those names in that statement would be surprise names to 12 me. I wouldn't have known them as players. It is not 13 somebody I could have commented on. That would have had 14 to be researched. 15 I probably did say to him, "Look, he has named this 16 person or that person, and he will make a statement but 17 we have a problem with the identity". The whole thing 18 for me going up was to say, "Yes, he has not admitted 19 anything, that he has done anything wrong. He seemed to 20 be a good witness. He seemed to be really honest. He 21 was relaxed. I was confident with him. But we have 22 a problem." 23 The problem was his identity and that was what we 24 had to get over. That was Mr McBurney's level to make 25 the decision and it was made. 15 1 Q. Again, you were asked whether you were conscious of 2 anybody else being interviewed in the police station at 3 about the same time. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You said no. Did you know that anybody else was coming 6 in to be interviewed about this? 7 A. No. It was later that I found out that there was 8 another witness, who was to be an important witness, but 9 I can honestly say -- use the words "never crossed 10 swords". One didn't see the other, and I certainly 11 didn't see them. 12 Q. What were Detective Inspector Irwin and 13 Detective Chief Superintendent McBurney doing in the 14 station that late at night? 15 A. They were probably working on action sheets and whatever 16 else was coming in on the Inquiry. I am sure Mr Irwin 17 in particular would have had more than his fair share of 18 work to do. Mr McBurney would have relied on him to be 19 doing that. 20 Q. I should have been more specific. Do you think they 21 were working on that murder case or doing all sorts of 22 other things? 23 A. No, I would say they would be working on the murder 24 case, but you have to take into consideration I can't 25 answer an awful lot of this. 16 1 Mr McBurney -- I can recall in the bad old days, as 2 Mr xxxxxxxxxx said, you had Mr McBurney leaving 3 Gough Barracks, coming to Portadown, taking a murder 4 inquiry meeting in the morning, getting in his car, then 5 going to Newry for someone who had been killed in 6 South Armagh and that evening could be as far away as 7 Cookstown dealing with another one. 8 Q. The reason I am getting to this is this: I think it is 9 going to be suggested that Tracey Clarke put those 10 names, the same names except for one -- that is she 11 didn't mention "Fonzy" -- in her statement made on 12 9th and 10th May because those names were put to her 13 either by her aunt or by the police. 14 What I am trying to get your help on is whether the 15 police who were interviewing her starting at about 10.30 16 on 9th May knew those names before you had signed off 17 the statement from Mr Jameson. Do you get me? 18 A. I doubt if that would have happened. Certainly, when 19 I came up, it was late, and I went in. I had to go in 20 and give the statement to Mr McBurney. It wasn't just 21 a matter of walking in and saying, "There is the 22 statement. Good night". You had to stay. 23 He read it over, looked at the names. It was 24 probably discussed at that stage, but I never spoke to 25 any of the detectives that were interviewing this girl 17 1 Tracey Bridgetts (sic). I doubt that. 2 Q. It was John McAteer. Do you know John McAteer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you remember seeing him that night? 5 A. No, I don't, actually, no. 6 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much. 7 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Just two matters. The first is really to 9 help non-lawyers understand. There really are, are 10 there not, three stages in the approach to whether a 11 person is a suspect? 12 You can begin by having confidence in his innocence. 13 There can be a stage when you say, "I wonder", but that 14 kind of suspicion is not enough, is it? You have to 15 have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed 16 a crime before you treat him as a suspect and are 17 required to caution him before you interview him. 18 A. That is very much the case, Mr Chairman. 19 Q. Thank you. The other thing is we have heard there was 20 a complaint against you to the Ombudsman, the Police 21 Ombudsman, and we have seen passages. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was the result of the complaint made against you on 24 that? 25 A. I have recently read the papers in respect of that and 18 1 I have read to the effect I was totally and utterly 2 cleared of any misconduct, that my handling of all the 3 witnesses in this case was in accordance with police 4 procedure. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 6 A. Thank you. 7 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you very much, Mr Honeyford. That 8 concludes your evidence. Thank you very much for coming 9 and I am sorry you were delayed yesterday. 10 A. That's okay. 11 (The witness withdrew) 12 MR UNDERWOOD: I think the position is -- though I will 13 check -- that there are no other witnesses until 11.30. 14 May I just check? That is the case. So perhaps I can 15 ask you to rise until 11.30? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly. Or until there is anything 17 else we can do. 18 (10.55 am) 19 (A short break) 20 (11.30 am) 21 MR UNDERWOOD: With your leave, I will call Mr Leatham. 22 MR WILLIAM TREVOR LEATHAM (called) 23 A. Do you mind if I go and get my glasses so I can read the 24 screen? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 1 MR WILLIAM TREVOR LEATHAM (sworn) 2 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Leatham. 4 A. Good morning, sir. 5 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood and I will be asking the 6 questions from this side, just to confuse. When you 7 least expect it, somebody else will do it. 8 Can I ask you your full names, please? 9 A. William Trevor Leatham. 10 Q. You will see on the screen in a moment page [80643]. We 11 will just scroll through the three pages of this. 12 Is that a statement you have made to the Inquiry? 13 A. It went a wee bit quick there, but, yes. 14 Q. If you want to go through it more slowly, by all means 15 do. If we start from the first page again and go 16 through it. 17 A. Yes. I read through this last night myself and it is my 18 statement, yes, sir. 19 Q. Thank you very much. Is it true? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. There are two matters I want to ask you about in it. 22 Firstly, if we can look at the second page, [80644], the 23 first is in paragraph 7. You say: 24 "When Mr Hanvey was in prison on remand, I was 25 working on his wing one night." 20 1 You bumped into him and asked him about the incident 2 on 27th April 1997. 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. You asked him if he had done what was alleged and he 5 told you he did not know because he couldn't remember 6 what he did that night? 7 A. That is correct, sir. 8 Q. Can you tell us a little more about that conversation? 9 Was it a short one, or what? 10 A. Oh, very brief. It was just, quite literally -- just -- 11 them words, when I knew he was there, I knew the fella, 12 I wanted out, because I was being compromised, so 13 I wanted off the wing. 14 Q. Why were you being compromised? 15 A. Because it was a friend I knew from outside. I was 16 a prison officer and did not want to be involved that 17 way at all, sir. 18 Q. How long had you known him? 19 A. Oh, since my son joined the Tae Kwon Do club. It was 20 probably about three years. I didn't meet him that 21 often. He didn't come to training. He had dropped out 22 of training in the Tae Kwon Do club. So I knew Allister 23 just occasionally met him when he did attend training. 24 Q. This may be a very silly question, but why did you ask 25 him whether he had done it? 21 1 A. Because I did know the fella. I did know him and -- it 2 was a wee bit more flowery, the words I used. 3 Q. Well, tell us. 4 A. "Why did you do it, you fucking idiot?" or something 5 like that there I said, sir. He said, "I don't know. 6 I can't remember", and he asked for a cigarette. I gave 7 him a cigarette and I walked out of the wing and told 8 the officers in charge of that H block that I was not 9 happy going down there again, because this was somebody 10 I knew from outside and I didn't want involved. 11 Q. Did he say any more about why he couldn't remember? 12 A. No. That's the last time I spoke to him, sir. 13 Q. Did he explain when he said he couldn't remember? Did 14 he say, "I couldn't remember because I was drunk, on 15 drugs, or I have had amnesia since", or what? 16 A. He never mentioned anything about amnesia. He just said 17 "I don't know. I can't remember". It was a very short 18 conversation that took place. It was 15 seconds, at the 19 most, 15 seconds. 20 Q. It is my job to squeeze as much evidence out of people 21 I can get. 22 A. I understand that, sir. I understand that. 23 Q. You tell me if I am asking you things you simply can't 24 help on. 25 How did that answer strike you? Did he seem 22 1 evasive? Did you think that was the truth? 2 A. Sir, all I can say is that I had heard rumours and this 3 was possibly to do with the rumours of -- I don't know 4 I should say it -- I had heard rumours that there was Es 5 involved, drug taking involved, and maybe he might have 6 been high on the night this happened and he couldn't 7 remember. That's what came into my head. That's why 8 I walked away. 9 Q. Right. We will move on then to paragraph 8. 10 Here you talk about a discussion with Mr Atkinson 11 within about one week of the incident happening. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. You go on to say there was an allegation that the police 14 sat there, and he said that was rubbish. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He went on to say the four of them were in the 17 Land Rover when they saw a fight break out. He told you 18 they went on up the town and came back down to where it 19 was taking place. 20 Going over the page, [80645], he told you, so you 21 say here, that when they got to the scene of the 22 fighting, he saw Allister Hanvey standing back and 23 watching it and that Allister Hanvey was either drunk or 24 high on drugs. He told him to fuck off home out of the 25 road and Allister apparently stood and argued with him 23 1 for a while. 2 I want to ask you about that conversation. Can you 3 remember where this took place, this conversation? 4 A. It is so long ago. I think it was in the Tae Kwon Do 5 club in Brownstown in Portadown. 6 Q. Can you remember the circumstances? Were you having 7 a drink? 8 A. No, no, no. There was no alcohol in the Tae Kwon Do 9 club, no. Oh, no, no. We might have been having 10 a coffee or something, but there was no alcohol in the 11 club. 12 Q. How well did you know Mr Atkinson? 13 A. Atkinson? Well, I am into my 26th year in the prison 14 service but I was on the police before that. I got to 15 know Robert when he was on the police and I was on the 16 police. I was stationed in Craigavon and him in 17 Portadown. So it was -- I just got to know each 18 station, got to know the boys in each station. Then 19 I left the prison service. 20 Then, after all them years, my youngest son wanted 21 to join the Tae Kwon Do club and his daughter was 22 a member of the club he joined. So we were familiar 23 with each other, but not what you would call really 24 close mates or anything like that. We were familiar 25 with each other. 24 1 Q. Was this the only conversation you had with him about 2 the incident, can you recall? 3 A. I left the club very, very shortly and probably -- it 4 might have been. To be perfectly honest with you, if 5 there was any more conversations, I can't remember them. 6 Q. Okay. Let's take the components of it. He said it was 7 rubbish that they didn't get out. Sorry, we are going 8 back to page 2, [80644], paragraph 8. The second 9 sentence: 10 "I mentioned to him the allegation that the police 11 had sat in the Land Rover and watched the assault. He 12 said that that was rubbish." 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. They certainly did get out, that was his position? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He then goes on to say: 17 "... the four of them were in the Land Rover going 18 up the other side of the street when they had seen 19 a fight break out at the corner of Woodhouse Street ... 20 they went on up the town and came back down to where the 21 fight was taking place." 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. How clear are you that he said that? 24 A. 100% clear. 25 Q. Then going back over the page again [80645] -- sorry to 25 1 move about: 2 "When they got to the scene of the fighting, he saw 3 Allister Hanvey standing back watching the fight." 4 Again, are you clear he told you about that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. He told you that: 7 "Allister was either drunk or high on drugs ..." 8 Again, how clear are you that he said that? 9 A. 100% clear. 10 Q. He told him to fuck off home out of the road, but he 11 didn't. He stood there. 12 A. He stood there and eventually left. 13 Q. Can you recall any other detail of that conversation? 14 A. No, sir. I am sorry. I can't. I really didn't want to 15 know anything about it. I honestly cannot recall 16 anything else from that particular conversation. 17 Q. I understand that Mr Atkinson's version of events is 18 that this conversation simply never took place. What 19 would you say about that? 20 A. Sir, I am here to tell the truth. I have no reason to 21 sit here and make anything up or do anything like that 22 there. Mr Atkinson can turn round and say what he wants 23 to say. I know what I was told, sir. 24 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much. Those are 25 the questions I have for you, Mr Leatham. Other people 26 1 may have some more. 2 A. Thank you. 3 MR ADAIR: No questions. 4 Cross-examination by MR MCKENNA 5 McKENNA: With your leave, sir, I have one or two matters. 6 I want to ask you one or two questions on behalf of 7 the Hamill family. 8 Earlier in your evidence to Mr Underwood, you 9 mentioned some concern, rumours about the use of I think 10 Es, you said, ecstasy. 11 A. Yes, I did say that, yes. 12 Q. Now, if I can take you to your statement, Mr Leatham, 13 and that is at [80644] -- 14 A. Sorry. I haven't got this on the screen. 15 Q. If that can be brought up for the witness, please. 16 A. What part are you talking about, sir? 17 Q. Paragraph 6. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You mention there: 20 "In 1997, I left the Tae Kwon Do club. There were 21 a number of reasons for leaving." 22 One of them, you say, was that you heard a rumour 23 that members of the club were taking ecstasy. 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. That rumour presumably was strong enough to be a factor 27 1 in your leaving the club. Is that right? 2 A. That's 100%. 3 Q. If I could take you then to paragraph 8 of your 4 statement where you have had the conversation with 5 Mr Atkinson and he had said on the night -- do you see 6 that? We are at page [80645], please. It is the second 7 part of paragraph 8. It is the last sentence: 8 "Robert told me that Allister was either drunk or 9 high on drugs ..." 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were you surprised by that assertion by Mr Atkinson? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Just one other matter, Mr Leatham. If I could take you 14 back to paragraph 6. Again, we are on [80644]. 15 Again, in relation to the reasons for your leaving 16 the club -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- you mention that you heard that Allister Hanvey 19 presumably and some other members of the club had been 20 involved in the Robert Hamill incident. Is that right? 21 A. Yes, yes. 22 Q. What other members of the club are you referring to? 23 A. Well, I can't even remember saying "other members of the 24 club". I can't remember saying that. I was told 25 Allister was at the scene. Another member of the club 28 1 would have been Robbie Atkinson. That's what I'm 2 talking about. As far as I am concerned, there was no 3 other fighters from the club involved in it at that 4 time. 5 Q. So when you say "members of the club", you are referring 6 to Hanvey and Atkinson? 7 A. Well, Robbie -- we were all members of the club. That's 8 all I am saying. I am not talking about any other 9 fighters being involved. I couldn't tell you, because 10 I never found out about this until a long time later. 11 Q. Can you remember who you heard that from? 12 A. Who I heard that ...? It was just knowledge throughout 13 the club. Everybody was talking about it in the 14 Tae Kwon Do club. 15 Q. I see. 16 A. You know, Allister had been arrested, that Robbie had 17 been there at the scene of that unfortunate incident, 18 but everybody in the club knew about it. 19 Q. But you can't remember who specifically told you about 20 it? 21 A. Not exactly, sir, no. 22 McKENNA: Thank you, Mr Leatham. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Ms Dinsmore? 24 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE 25 MS DINSMORE: Mr Leatham -- 29 1 A. Yes, ma'am. 2 Q. -- I appear on behalf of Mr Atkinson. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Counsel for the Inquiry has very frankly indicated to 5 you my client's position, in that he does not accept 6 that a conversation took place as outlined by yourself, 7 and I propose, with the Chairman's indulgence, to 8 explore a little that with you, and that's the context 9 in which I am doing that. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, your first statement was made on 9th November 2000. 12 A. Well, if that's the date it says, that's the date it 13 says. 14 Q. There are a lot of things that you have recalled with 15 certainty and you read through your statements last 16 night. 17 Are you telling me now that you have any ambiguity 18 that your statement was made on 9th November of 1990? 19 A. Ma'am, you are hitting me with a date here. 20 Q. 9th November 2000. Well, you can take it that it was? 21 A. Ma'am, I have been 100% honest with anything I have been 22 asked. 23 Q. Right. Well, you can continue to be honest, then, if 24 you accept the -- you make a statement on 25 9th November 2000. 30 1 A. If that's the date you say, ma'am. 2 Q. Now that is some very considerable time after this 3 tragic night, isn't that right? 4 A. Well, the first time I was interviewed by the police was 5 in my own property, my own house, and I was as honest as 6 I could be with them from what I recall. 7 If that's the date that them officers have on their 8 statements, that's the date of my first. 9 Q. The short form version is it is in excess of three years 10 after the incident? 11 A. If that's the time that the police interviewed me at 12 first, ma'am, yes. 13 Q. Perhaps in ease of my learned friends' mental security 14 you we could call up [17392] and you could be shown the 15 date of this statement. 16 A. I am not arguing. I am not sitting here arguing about 17 dates. I have no problem with them. 18 Q. You can see now that is your statement and it is made on 19 9th November 2000. 20 A. Right. Yes. 21 Q. What we know about that is that that is made in excess 22 of three years after this very tragic night? 23 A. Yes, ma'am. I can't argue with that. 24 Q. Right. In excess of three years later, you have 25 prepared this detailed statement which includes this 31 1 alleged conversation. Isn't that correct? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. Can you recall exactly when this conversation took 4 place? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You have no recall at all? 7 A. The date, the time, no. 8 Q. Can you do it within weeks, months, years between 1987 9 and November of 1990 -- 1997 and November -- 10 A. I left the club shortly after that. I don't know. 11 I cannot give you a date on that. I'm sorry. 12 Q. So what we do know is that you do not know when this 13 conversation that you have such a very vivid recall of 14 took place. 15 A. No. I don't know the exact date. 16 Q. Right. Do you know the date that you made your 17 statement to the Inquiry? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Well, if we could call up [80645], because a direct 20 sighting of that might ease you in relation to that. 21 Can we have page [80645] on the screen, please. 22 Can you confirm that that is your signature at the 23 bottom of that page and can you confirm that the date is 24 25th August of 2008? 25 A. Yes, I can, yes. 32 1 Q. Can I then ask that [80644] be called up on the screen? 2 Now, when you gave that statement last August, were 3 you telling the truth? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you have this 100% clear recall in relation to this 6 conversation on that date? 7 A. May I take a bit of time to read through my statement, 8 please? 9 Q. Perhaps you could answer the question, and then no doubt 10 the Chairman will allow you to read your statement in 11 its entirety. I am in the Chairman's hands. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I think if he wants to read his statement, it 13 may help him. 14 MS DINSMORE: Certainly. Feel free. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: It may be quicker if you direct him to the 16 particular paragraphs you have in mind, do you think? 17 MS DINSMORE: What I am going to take you to is the 18 paragraph 8, which is the last paragraph on [80644]. 19 Now, if we look at the first sentence of that, 20 Mr Leatham, what does that tell you about your recall in 21 relation to the timing of this alleged conversation? 22 A. I beg your pardon. What is that supposed to mean, 23 ma'am? Robbie Atkinson told me that when the incident 24 started, they started up the Land Rover, drove up round 25 the back of the church and down to the incident. 33 1 I think that's quite plain. 2 Q. Can I take you to another few words I am going to 3 suggest to you are also quite plain? This is 4 paragraph 8. Can you locate it on the screen? 5 A. Yes. I have it in front of me. 6 Q. Do you see "I"? "I" relates to you. That is your -- 7 A. I discussed the incident with Robert, yes. 8 Q. You discussed the incident itself with Robert Atkinson? 9 A. I did, yes. 10 Q. Then what you have helpfully said here is in August of 11 2008 you are able to tell when you did that and you did 12 it within one week of it happening. 13 A. Yes, but I cannot give you a specific date, ma'am. 14 Q. I asked you weeks, months, years and you couldn't answer 15 that. 16 A. No, not a specific date. I cannot. 17 Q. No doubt Mr Chairman and the Panel have got the point, 18 but what is clear is that in August of last year you 19 seem to be able to put it down to within one week of the 20 incident? 21 A. But not a specific date, ma'am. 22 Q. Not a specific date? 23 A. I never said a specific date. Honestly, I cannot give 24 you a specific time. 25 Q. I apologise. I am obliged to Mr Underwood. My usual 34 1 fault; talking too much and too fast. 2 Well, what is clear, whether it be the Monday, the 3 Tuesday, the Wednesday, the Thursday, the Friday, the 4 Saturday or the Sunday, is that in August of 2008, 5 within one week of this tragic incident, you say this 6 conversation happened. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. This is the same conversation that you had no idea as to 9 when it happened earlier on this morning? 10 A. Specific dates and times, no. 11 Q. Okay. Then let's look at what you thought about the 12 timing in relation to this conversation when you made 13 your statement in November of 2000. Right? 14 A. Yes, ma'am. 15 Q. If we could call up page [17393], there you have made 16 reference to it was either a Monday, Wednesday or Friday 17 night, but you give no ambit whatsoever as to when the 18 conversation occurred. Isn't that right? 19 A. I am still reading, ma'am. 20 What was the question you were giving me, please? 21 Q. Now, you had been a serving policeman in your time? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You were a prison officer? 24 A. At the time, yes. 25 Q. One of the attributes and disciplines of a policeman is 35 1 the importance of contemporaneous recall? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. That the closer to something one is, the more likely 4 one's recall is to be accurate? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 Q. Now, if this alleged conversation, which is denied, took 7 place, if it took place within one week, albeit we don't 8 know what day in the week, surely, as a serving 9 policeman, it would have occurred to you -- 10 A. A prison officer today, ma'am. 11 Q. But with the history of the discipline and learning and 12 training and experience that one gets as a policeman, 13 with that up your sleeve, it didn't occur to you to say, 14 "Well, actually, you know, I had this conversation 15 within a very short space of time -- 16 A. Ma'am -- 17 Q. -- when you made that statement. Isn't that right? 18 A. When I made that statement, Allister Hanvey had already 19 been arrested. I had already -- and was in custody. 20 I had already informed my own authorities, my own bosses 21 that I knew this particular man. 22 Q. What has that to do with whether or not you thought it 23 was relevant to say when the conversation took place? 24 I mean, how is that an answer to that question? 25 A. You just asked me why did I not say anything. I did. 36 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just say to us why you didn't say in 2 the statement you met him and had this conversation 3 about a week after the incident? 4 A. Sir, does it not say there? 5 THE CHAIRMAN: No. You say: 6 "A normal club training night, Monday, Wednesday or 7 Friday". 8 A. Yes, during the week. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: What counsel wants to know is why you didn't 10 say it was a week after, or tie it down a little more to 11 the time of the incident. 12 A. Sir, I will be perfectly honest with you. I cannot tie 13 it down to a specific date, but it was shortly after the 14 incident, maybe a week or two weeks after the incident. 15 I cannot, with hand on heart, give you a specific 16 date or time, but it was within a week or two weeks of 17 the incident taking place. I cannot give you that. 18 MS DINSMORE: Until I brought it to your attention that you 19 had stated at one stage you used the term "week", when 20 did it occur to you this morning that that was the time 21 limit? Because I am subject to the LiveNote and subject 22 to the Chairman's note, but my understanding is, when 23 I actually put it to you about weeks or months or years, 24 you couldn't answer it. 25 Are you now telling us on oath that you have a clear 37 1 recall it is within a week or two weeks? 2 A. Ma'am, I have no intention of breaking my oath. All 3 I am telling you is, at the specific time this 4 conversation took place, I cannot give you a date or 5 time, but it was very closely after the incident, a week 6 or a fortnight. 7 Ma'am, I am not trying to break an oath. I am not 8 trying to say anything different from what my statement 9 says. I just cannot give you a specific time. I'm 10 sorry about that. 11 Q. Well, what we do know is that the sojourn with myself in 12 the last ten minutes means you have now moved from 13 a position of not knowing to a position of it being one 14 or two weeks. 15 Is that right? Is that what you are saying? 16 A. One or two weeks is a period of time, ma'am. One or two 17 weeks is a period of time. I am not going against my 18 oath or anything like that here. I am here to tell the 19 truth. I am sorry, ma'am, but I cannot give you 20 a specific moment in time. 21 Q. Well, Mr Mallon has helpfully called the LiveNote up for 22 me. I had said: 23 "Can you do it within weeks, months, years between 24 1987 and November of 1990?" 25 Your only answer is: 38 1 "I left the club shortly after that. I don't know. 2 I'm sorry. We don't know when this conversation ..." 3 So that's what you said earlier when I asked you 4 earlier about weeks, months and years, but what the 5 Panel now know is that things have crystallised for you 6 during this 7 A. No, ma'am, they have not crystallised for me, because 8 I cannot give you a specific date or time. Crystallised 9 for you, maybe, ma'am, but not for me. 10 Q. No, but what they have maybe perhaps focused a little is 11 that your focus is now not being able to deal with 12 weeks, months and years, but they have focused to the 13 extent that you are telling the Inquiry one or two 14 weeks. Okay? 15 If we just move on -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is fair to say, Ms Dinsmore, every 17 time he was pressed about when, he always said, "I can't 18 give a specific date". 19 MS DINSMORE: Mr Chairman, I have no doubt you have got the 20 point, if there is a point to get. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have the point. 22 MS DINSMORE: So I am happy to move on. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 24 MS DINSMORE: Now, the next thing is the venue. Again, we 25 have two statements from you. One is the Inquiry one 39 1 and the other is your statement of November 1990. 2 Tell me, how did that statement come about, that 3 November 1990 one? 4 A. Is this the police interview or the Inquiry interview? 5 Q. The November 1990 one is the police interview. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The Inquiry one, just so that you are clear, to keep 8 things moving -- 9 A. Yes, I am clear. 10 Q. -- is August of 2008 -- 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. -- which is a very long time after. Right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, what I am asking you is: how did the police 15 statement come about? 16 A. Two policemen arrived at my house. 17 Q. Did you think that you had material that was relevant to 18 the whole question of an investigation? 19 A. No, no. 20 Q. So this material in your statement, you didn't think 21 that was something that was of any interest or should be 22 of any interest to any murder investigation? 23 A. At the time I answered the questions, every question 24 that the police officer -- the two police officers asked 25 me. I answered everything honestly. 40 1 Q. Well, with respect, that's not the question I'm asking 2 you. The question I am now asking you is this: you had 3 been a policeman? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. There has been a murder? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There has been a tragic murder? 8 A. Horrible murder, yes. 9 Q. There is enormous interest in it. You, as an 10 ex-policeman and a serving member of the criminal 11 justice system as a police officer, did it not occur to 12 you to go and say to the police, "Well, look, I wasn't 13 there. I know it is only hearsay, but even by way of 14 a backdrop, here is what I know about things"? 15 A. People had already been arrested at that time. I was 16 quite willing to offer anything I knew, but I was not 17 there at the incident. I wasn't in that place at the 18 time that it took place. 19 As soon as the police came, I told them what they 20 wanted to know, everything that I could do to help them. 21 Every question they asked, I answered honestly. 22 Q. You told them what you thought they wanted to -- 23 A. I told them not what I thought they wanted to know, 24 ma'am; what they asked me. 25 Q. It never occurred to you in the interim years to go down 41 1 and offer like your tuppence worth? 2 A. Ma'am, the process was already on going. I was there 3 from the start, asked would I give evidence on behalf of 4 the police. Yes, I will give evidence and I will do 5 whatever you require me to do. 6 I have been waiting all this time for to be asked to 7 come. I have no problems with giving evidence over this 8 incident. I wasn't involved in it. I am apparently 9 here as a character witness. You can ask me what you 10 want, but I will be 100% honest with you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: You may like to put to him what there is in 12 this statement made to the police which should have told 13 him that he might have some useful information about the 14 murder. 15 MS DINSMORE: Certainly, Mr Chair. If I could take you to 16 [17393], isn't it fair to say that in that statement you 17 deal with what you thought was knowledge you had 18 regarding Allister Hanvey and his state on that 19 occasion? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: You may like to suggest to him why he should 21 have realised that that might assist the police in their 22 investigation of the death of Robert Hamill. 23 MS DINSMORE: I am obliged to you, Mr Chairman. 24 You have told us that Allister Hanvey had been 25 arrested. 42 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You believed you had knowledge which was relevant to 3 Allister Hanvey. 4 A. Not at the time he was arrested, ma'am, no. 5 Q. Well, subsequent to his arrest, you had -- 6 A. Yes, I heard rumours, yes. 7 Q. We know you knew he was arrested. 8 A. Yes, I knew he was arrested, but I wasn't expecting him 9 to be in the H Blocks, no. 10 Q. You knew he was arrested, and you knew, if what you say 11 is correct, you considered yourself to be privy to 12 knowledge in relation to the state of Allister Hanvey 13 and his conduct on the night in question. 14 Isn't that right? Isn't that what your statement 15 alludes to? 16 A. Well, what I have been told about that night was from 17 Robbie, that he just told him to fuck off out of the 18 road at that particular time. 19 Q. Now, what you have alleged -- which my client denies. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. My client is adamant that this is not correct. This 22 conversation is not correct, as you say? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Just put your challenge, Ms Dinsmore. Don't 24 introduce it by a speech. 25 MS DINSMORE: I am obliged to you. 43 1 You had, you believe, knowledge that Allister was 2 either drunk or high on drugs. 3 A. Yes, I was told that, ma'am, yes. 4 Q. You knew he had been arrested? 5 A. No. After the incident, yes. 6 Q. It did not occur to you, as an ex-policeman, that that 7 is information that you should have perhaps brought to 8 the attention of the murder investigation? 9 A. Ma'am, at the time, as far as I was aware, the police 10 investigation was ongoing. The first time I was asked 11 to give evidence, I gave my evidence that I could. 12 I was not at the scene. I was not there. Yes, I know 13 names of people that were involved. I have grown up in 14 a community where I have known many names -- 15 Q. But -- 16 A. -- but at the same time, in the job I'm in, I do not 17 wish to be associated with anything like that there. 18 I try to keep myself clean, as people would like to 19 say. I didn't want anything to do with the thing, 20 ma'am. 21 Q. Let us just move away from my client for a moment. What 22 we do know is that you had a conversation, you say, with 23 Allister Hanvey himself. 24 A. Yes, I did, yes. 25 Q. You said to him, "Why did you do it?", and he says -- 44 1 A. "I don't know. I can't remember." 2 Q. Now, as a serving police officer working on a wing -- 3 prison officer working on a wing, how does that square 4 with keeping yourself clean, coming up to -- 5 A. If you are going to carry on on that, it squares that 6 I walked out of the wing, not knowing that 7 Allister Hanvey was on the wing. I reported it to the 8 senior officer in the block and told him I was not happy 9 with working down there. It is a thing that most prison 10 officers do all the time. You try not to compromise 11 yourself and get yourself put into compromising 12 positions, which is exactly what I did that day, ma'am. 13 Q. Well, when -- you had a conversation with 14 Allister Hanvey? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When he was -- 17 A. One sentence. One sentence. 18 Q. Whether it be one sentence or one word -- 19 A. Yes, ma'am. 20 Q. -- your statement makes it clear it did a number of 21 things. One, it asked him about the incident. Isn't 22 that correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. It asked him about the alleged murder of Robert Hamill. 25 A. I didn't use the word "murder", ma'am. "Did you do it? 45 1 You are a fucking idiot". 2 Q. In your statement to the Inquiry it says: 3 "I asked him about the incident and the alleged 4 murder of Robert Hamill." 5 The next thing we know that the police might have 6 been interested is you asked him why did he do it. 7 A. Yes. That was all in the one sentence, ma'am. He said 8 "I don't know. I can't remember". 9 Q. So we know: (a) you spoke to him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. (b) you spoke to him about the relevant issue? 12 A. All in one sentence, ma'am. 13 Q. (c) you challenged him? 14 A. All in one sentence, ma'am. 15 Q. (d) -- it was some sentence -- (d) you said why did he 16 do it? 17 A. "Why did you do it?" 18 Q. (e) you got an answer from him? 19 A. I did, yes, ma'am. 20 Q. The answer was, "I didn't do it. What are you on 21 about?" 22 A. No, he did not say that, ma'am. He said, "I don't know. 23 I can't remember." He didn't say, "I didn't do it". He 24 said, "I don't know. I can't remember", ma'am. 25 Q. Right. So you get an answer, "I don't know. I can't 46 1 remember"? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Did it not occur to you that that would be something 4 that would be very relevant to an investigation, or were 5 you concerned about rules of evidence and entrapment or 6 some such niceties? 7 A. No, I wouldn't be worried about entrapment or anything 8 like that at all, ma'am. 26 years in the prison service 9 and a bit of time on the police as well, you get used to 10 hearing words like that. It is nothing unusual. 11 Immediately after that, I have always kept my 12 security department in my prison informed about what has 13 been happening. I immediately left and reported to 14 senior officers that I knew that man, and I have even 15 went as far as the Prison Officers' Association. I have 16 been informed that I am involved in this. I have been 17 straightforward the whole way. I have no intentions of 18 hiding anything here, ma'am. 19 Q. Well, this man said he couldn't remember anything about 20 what he did that night. 21 A. Well -- 22 Q. And you did not see fit to report that to the police who 23 were carrying out the investigation of the murder? 24 A. In my initial statement I think I did tell the police 25 that when the police came to interview me, ma'am. 47 1 Q. Three years later, in excess of three years later? 2 A. Well, I can remember stories and conversations I had 3 when I was young. 4 Q. If I just move on then, in relation to the conversation, 5 which is denied, with Mr Atkinson, are you satisfied 6 this took place in the Tae Kwon Do club? 7 A. Yes, in the Tae Kwon Do club, ma'am. 8 Q. Where was it in the club, do you remember? 9 A. In the coffee room. 10 Q. Who all was there? 11 A. Ma'am, I can't remember. 12 Q. Wait a minute. You remember every word Robbie Atkinson 13 says? 14 A. Yes, I remember that. 15 Q. You remember that? 16 A. Ma'am, please. Who all was there? People came and 17 people went. We had an early session for young kids. 18 Some mothers stayed on after to have coffees. We had 19 a later session for the more senior members. You were 20 being mixed. People were coming and going all the time. 21 To say who I can remember being there would be 22 making things up. I honestly can't remember. 23 I remember having the conversation with Robbie, but who 24 was there in the room at the time I cannot, hand on 25 heart, tell you. 48 1 Q. Can you remember what time it was? 2 A. It would have been around about 7 o'clock in the 3 evening. 4 Q. How do you know that now? 5 A. The training session started about 6.30 pm, 7.00 pm. 6 We'd a 7.00 pm session. Some people came down early to 7 train in the gym. Some people came down for the sauna 8 or some people came down for the sunbed. So it was 9 usually from 6 o'clock on in the evening, 6, 7 o'clock, 10 8 o'clock at night. 11 Q. Do you remember how the conversation started? 12 A. Yes, because we all knew Allister. 13 Q. Who started the conversation? 14 A. It could have been me, it could have been Robbie. It 15 could have been one of the other members at the club 16 because we knew Allister had been lifted. We knew he 17 had been arrested and the conversation started. 18 Q. It could have been one of the other members in the club? 19 A. Yes, it could have been me, ma'am. It could -- I don't 20 know. 21 Q. You said it could have been you, you said it could have 22 been Robbie, and I am going to press you a little 23 because you said it could have been one of the other 24 members in the club, because the Inquiry need to know 25 the context of this conversation and the possible 49 1 participants and the possible potential witnesses to 2 this conversation that may not even have emerged, if you 3 are right. 4 A. The conversation did take place, ma'am. Don't get me 5 wrong. I am 100% behind this. This conversation took 6 place. Whoever else was in the room at the time, 7 I cannot honestly remember. 8 Q. Can I take it from that that you accept there were other 9 persons within the room? 10 A. Probably. 11 Q. Now probably -- 12 A. That's what I say, ma'am. I am trying to explain to 13 you. This is in between training sessions. You have 14 parents bringing young kids down. You have parents 15 coming to pick people up, in between training sessions, 16 people sit and have conversations in the coffee room and 17 places like that or outside, outside having a cigarette 18 or something like that there. There was always people 19 there. I cannot specifically say who was there when 20 I had this conversation with Robbie. I am sorry, ma'am. 21 Q. Well, can you recall if anybody else participated in 22 this conversation? 23 A. It was spoken about -- the particular incident was 24 spoken about over a period of a week or so. 25 Q. But this is a conversation that you have alluded to in 50 1 both statements. 2 A. Yes, yes. 3 Q. That's a self-contained conversation? 4 A. Yes, but -- 5 Q. That's not like a series. I want to know about this 6 self-contained conversation. Were there other persons 7 in the room, albeit maybe coming and going? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you have answered the question already 9 more than once. 10 A. Probably. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get on. 12 MS DINSMORE: If I then move on in relation to the fact that 13 you are -- you were involved in the recreation club. 14 A. No, the Tae Kwon Do club. 15 Q. But they had a wee sort of sub-club? 16 A. It never went anywhere. It never got anywhere. 17 Q. It sort of organised wee outings, wee trips? 18 A. We never even actually got one of them. It just failed. 19 Q. Did the Lanzarote one not happen? 20 A. Lanzarote? If they did, it was unbeknownst to me. 21 Q. Oh, well, you didn't get on that trip? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You were Secretary or Treasurer. Treasurer? 24 A. I think it was Treasurer. For one month, I signed one 25 cheque, ma'am, and that was the end of it. 51 1 Q. But you were -- really, I am just leading to the point. 2 You were pretty familiar with the workings of the club 3 is what I am saying to you. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Well, you were going to the club quite a bit? 6 A. I could have been there three nights a week, yes. Three 7 or four nights a week. 8 Q. Your child was a participant? 9 A. Yes, my son was a very good participant too. 10 Q. You held this office, albeit it held out to be a bit of 11 a damp squib? 12 A. In name only. Yes, it was, ma'am. 13 Q. Now, could I just ask you: are you aware of the opening 14 hours obviously of the club? 15 A. That's what I said. It was 6 o'clock. At weekends and 16 maybe dinnertimes and stuff like that there. 17 Q. Isn't it right to say it was a club that opened a lot of 18 the time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Like, it wasn't a club where you closed the doors up and 21 that was it? It was quite flexible? 22 A. Oh, it was if you wanted to train because we did have 23 the sauna, the sunbeds, the gymnasium, where people 24 could come who didn't want to take part in Tae Kwon Do. 25 We had a boxing club. 52 1 Q. Lots of facilities? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. They were happily availed of on a very flexible basis? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, would that include Sundays? 6 A. Yes. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: How long do you think you will be, 8 Ms Dinsmore? 9 MS DINSMORE: I am finishing now. 10 That would include Sundays? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Just for completeness of the record, could page numbers 13 [24834] and [24835] be called up? 14 I am simply putting that you are quite right when 15 you say the club opened on Sundays, because there is 16 an indication of telephone records in relation to 17 Sundays. 18 A. Yes. 19 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. Thank you for your 20 indulgence, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Atchison? 22 Cross-examination by MR ATCHISON 23 MR ATCHISON: Subject to yourself, Mr Chairman, whether you 24 would like me to deal with these matters now or whether 25 you are inclined to rise briefly. I will only propose 53 1 to keep the witness five minutes. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: You take your five minutes. 3 MR ATCHISON: I should say I appear for Allister Hanvey 4 amongst others. 5 You have been clear that within one week of the 6 incident Reserve Constable Atkinson informed you that 7 Mr Hanvey was not engaged in the assault. 8 A. Yes, he did. 9 Q. Yet, you said you then felt inclined to ask Mr Hanvey, 10 "Did you do this offence?" 11 A. Uh-huh, I did. 12 Q. Why did you do that? 13 A. Because he was locked inside. The police would not have 14 put him into the prison unless they had evidence. So 15 I asked Allister -- I didn't even ask him -- did I ask 16 him, "What did you do it for, you idiot?" or something 17 like that there. I just confronted Allister when he 18 walked out. I didn't even know he was in the place. 19 I asked Allister; Allister's reply was, "I don't know. 20 I can't remember". 21 Q. I don't want to -- 22 A. I felt, as somebody who knew him, I had to ask him that. 23 Q. I don't wish to duplicate the questions put by 24 Ms Dinsmore, but would you commonly ask prisoners 25 whether they have committed an offence? 54 1 A. Yes, I have asked them in the past, yes. 2 Q. But you say you were adamant, you told your superiors 3 you knew Mr Hanvey. You didn't want to -- 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Hold on. You didn't want to compromise yourself. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Why, then, ask him this question? Why didn't you 8 avoid -- 9 A. This is before I went to my superiors. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: The question is: as you didn't want to 11 compromise yourself, why did you ask him the question in 12 the first place? 13 A. Because I was astonished he was in, sir. Anybody would 14 have asked the same, as far as I am concerned. As soon 15 as I got the answer to the question, there had been 16 rumours he had been taking drugs. I just wanted to know 17 for myself, and then reported to my senior officers that 18 I was not comfortable being down there and did not want 19 to go back down again. 20 MR ATCHISON: Did you report the conversation with 21 Mr Hanvey? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you report what he told you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You are certain of that? 55 1 A. 100% certain, sir. 2 Q. Whom did you report that to? 3 A. It was the Senior Officer and Principal Officer in 4 charge of H1 on that particular day that I bumped into 5 Allister. 6 Q. Now, am I right that whenever the police spoke with you 7 in November 2000, they approached you? 8 A. They came to my house, sir. 9 Q. You never contacted the police and said "I have 10 information"? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Am I right that when the police contacted you they were 13 conducting enquiries in relation to yourself, Mr McKee 14 and Reserve Constable Atkinson? 15 A. That's right, yes. 16 Q. Was it ever suggested to you that you were involved in 17 some conspiracy or relaying some messages between 18 Reserve Constable Atkinson and Mr McKee? 19 A. Never, sir. 20 Q. I am sure you were concerned when you were questioned by 21 the police. 22 A. Very annoyed, sir, yes. 23 Q. Certainly I am sure you at least perceived that such 24 an inference might have been drawn. 25 A. I have never had it drawn on my character in the past, 56 1 sir. I hope it is not being drawn on now. No. 2 Q. Again, not to duplicate anything -- I am conscious of 3 the time -- would it be fair to say you agree that 4 Mr Hanvey was in custody between May and, I believe, 5 October 1997? 6 A. Dates, sir, I cannot be sure of. 7 Q. I will tell you, subject to correction by Mr Underwood, 8 I believe Mr Hanvey was in custody from May to roughly 9 October 1997. 10 So to take a point identified by my friend, it is 11 fair to say that your statement by the police was 12 furnished at least three years after that? 13 A. Sir, I haven't got the dates in front of me. 14 Q. Well, I am telling you those dates. 15 A. That's okay, sir. 16 Q. I will be corrected. Would you agree you have 17 documented or furnished a statement in relation to 18 a conversation which occurred three years earlier? 19 A. With Allister down the wing, yes. 20 Q. In that regard, would you agree with me it is possible 21 your memory was not accurate? 22 A. I don't see why, sir. 23 Q. Did you make a note at the time? 24 A. No. Why? 25 Q. Three years had elapsed. 57 1 A. Yes, but I can remember that conversation. I can 2 remember speaking to the fella. I can remember coming 3 out of his cell, me being shocked seeing him there. 4 I was down to fix a light in another cell. 5 Q. When did you leave the Tae Kwon Do club? 6 A. Shortly after that. 7 Q. Now, when you made your statement in November 2000, you 8 did not mention to the police that you had left the 9 club? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. You certainly didn't identify to them that it was 12 because of any allegation of drug-taking or because any 13 members of the club had been involved in the 14 Robert Hamill assault? 15 A. Yes, I did, sir. 16 Q. That's not in your statement. 17 A. Well, that's what the officers took down, sir. 18 Q. The first time you mentioned -- 19 A. I heard rumours, sir. I am not making anything up. 20 I heard rumours and I do not want anything to do with 21 that with my family or my job. I left the club. Once 22 them rumours start, I am out of there. 23 Q. Did you not think it important to bring that to the 24 attention of the police in November 2000? 25 A. Sir, I answered all questions that I was asked, all 58 1 questions to me. I wasn't going to start trying to 2 dream up questions of my own. Enough questions were 3 being asked of me. I answered everything as honestly as 4 I could. 5 Q. Because it wasn't until you made your statement to the 6 Inquiry that you mentioned the alleged participation by 7 members of the club in the assault or the drugs, and 8 that was, of course, in August 2008? 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Atchison, he said he told this to the 10 police. What the police put in his statement -- in 11 other words, what topics they deal with -- is a matter 12 for them, but don't put the question on the basis that 13 he accepted he never told them. He said he did. 14 MR ATCHISON: Very well. 15 Today you have said, Mr Leatham, that Mr Hanvey had 16 taken drugs, ecstasy. 17 A. Sir, I could never confirm whether he took drugs or not. 18 It was allegations. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait for the question. 20 MR ATCHISON: Please bear with me. The point I was putting 21 to you is that today, for the first time, you have 22 specifically volunteered that you understood or you were 23 led to believe that Mr Hanvey had taken drugs. It isn't 24 in any of your earlier statements. 25 A. It is actually, sir. 59 1 Q. It is not. 2 A. It is. It actually says -- well, from Mr Atkinson, and 3 it says he is either drunk or high on Es. That's there 4 in my statement. That's actually mentioned before, sir. 5 There were rumours that Allister Hanvey had been taking 6 E tablets. That's actually in black and white on one of 7 them pages. I cannot confirm whether he did or didn't. 8 Q. Are you still in the prison service? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. At the time, whenever the police contacted you to 11 enquire in relation to your relationship with Mr McKee 12 and Reserve Constable Atkinson -- 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. -- no doubt you were anxious to preserve your position. 15 Is it possible you distanced yourself from these men? 16 A. I distanced myself as far as possible away from them, 17 sir. 18 Q. Similarly so, given that Mr Hanvey was a member of the 19 club in which you were a member, is it possible you were 20 trying to distance yourself from him as well? 21 A. Of course. 22 Q. Is that why you have attributed this statement to him? 23 A. What are you trying to say, sir? 24 Q. That you asked him whether he had done the offence and 25 he said he couldn't remember. 60 1 A. No, that took place. That actually took place, sir. 2 I am not attributing it to him or anything. That took 3 place. 4 MR ATCHISON: Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Berry? 6 Cross-examination by MR BERRY 7 MR BERRY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 8 Just when you thought you were going to get away, 9 Mr Leatham. Can you hear me all right? 10 A. Yes, I can hear you fine, sir. 11 Q. Just a couple of things I want to ask you about, 12 hopefully discrete issues. 13 You mentioned the conversation with Mr Hanvey, which 14 you have been questioned about at some length. 15 A. Yes, yes. 16 Q. You mentioned it took place at H1. 17 A. It did, yes. 18 Q. That was in the Maze? 19 A. It was, yes. 20 Q. There were a system of H Blocks in 1997. Isn't that 21 right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was there any significance in terms of their numbers? 24 You have described H1. What was H1? 25 A. H1 at the time was used for remand prisoners. Certain 61 1 other blocks were used for the paramilitaries and, you 2 know, different -- just different types of prisoners, 3 but H1, at the time, was being used for remands, remand 4 prisoners. 5 Q. Yes. Was that just if there was an overflow from 6 Maghaberry or anything of that nature, or why, in 7 particular, were remand prisoners kept at the Maze? 8 A. The same as remand prisoners are kept anywhere. There 9 are certain things -- at Maghaberry now we have 10 Lagan House with remand prisoners in it. It just 11 happened to be a leg of a house that was being used. 12 Q. I understand that, but presumably, if you were a remand 13 prisoner in 1997, you could be remanded, for example, to 14 Maghaberry. Is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Or you could be remanded to the Maze? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In terms of being remanded to the Maze, why were you 19 remanded there as opposed to being remanded to 20 Maghaberry? 21 A. Sir, that's not within my remit. 22 Q. In terms of H1 you have described various wings. Is 23 that right? 24 A. Yes. There are four legs to an H block, a wing. 25 Q. I think you said that Mr Hanvey was either on A wing or 62 1 C wing? 2 A. It was A or C wing, sir. 3 Q. Is there any particular reason you remember that? 4 A. Because -- the only reason I can remember it was because 5 of the direction I turned whenever I went into the 6 block. I was down the left-hand side, so it had to be C 7 or it had to be A. 8 Q. Insofar as those wings were concerned, A and C wing -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- were those particular wings given over to particular 11 types of prisoner other than -- 12 A. No, that was a mixture. That was remand. Where 13 Allister was, that was not one side or the other side or 14 anything particular. It was just remand prisoners were 15 put in there. 16 MR BERRY: Thank you, Mr Leatham. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood? There seem to be no more 18 takers. 19 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you. Thank you very 20 much. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You are free now to go. 22 A. Thank you very much. 23 (The witness withdrew) 24 MR UNDERWOOD: I will call Mr Lyons now. To avoid any 25 confusion Mr Lyons has sometimes been referred to as 63 1 P50, but that was out of an abundance of caution. 2 MR JULIAN MICHAEL LYONS (sworn) 3 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD 4 MR UNDERWOOD: Morning, Mr Lyons. 5 A. Morning. 6 Q. My name is Underwood and I will be asking questions on 7 behalf of the enquiry. 8 Can I ask you your full names, first of all? 9 A. Julian Michael Lyons. 10 Q. Can you look on the screen? We will see page [80728] 11 come up. It is the first page of a statement. Can 12 I just ask for it to be scrolled through fairly quickly? 13 Is this a statement you have signed for the Inquiry? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is it true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I want to ask you about some documents that you may or 18 may not have seen before, which come to us from the 19 police. 20 If we start with page [01941], if we can amplify the 21 text of that, this is a note of a conversation between 22 you and a detective. Unhelpfully, that detective has 23 a codename, so I can't tell you who he was at the moment. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It is discussing a conversation which took place on 64 1 18th December 2000. Do you recall that at all? 2 A. I recall talking to P50, yes. 3 Q. In fact, you were P50. 4 A. Oh, sorry. 5 Q. I thought it might lead to confusion. You recall 6 talking to an officer? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Right. Thanks. Can I just take you through this and 9 see what you say about it: 10 "Spoke to P50, proprietor of Paranoid at Portadown 11 at Belfast on 18.12.00. I have had ongoing 12 contact with Mr Lyons over a period of weeks regarding 13 the coat purchased by Tracey Clarke." 14 You had checked your records, it says, old records: 15 "... but cannot locate anything for 1996 Christmas 16 period. He states he probably threw them out. He can 17 recall a girl called Tracey who worked in Going Places 18 buying a coat for her boyfriend who was called Allister. 19 He does recall that shortly after they got the coat it 20 was damaged and they called back at the shop and had it 21 repaired by covering it over with perhaps patches. 22 However, he cannot be sure. When asked about a coat 23 costing £175.00 he cannot definitely say that they got 24 a coat at that price but believes the only one they sold 25 at that time was a Danielle Poole coat at that amount of 65 1 money." 2 Was that accurate? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was put to you was then the concept of a coat that 5 cost £175, and you said, as a result of that price, it 6 was likely to be Danielle Poole. 7 A. It was more than a result of that price. I do remember 8 Tracey Clarke laying away a coat for the boyfriend at 9 that time, and it would have been £150 plus. It was the 10 most expensive coat we had. There were two coats that 11 fell into that category. One was a Danielle Poole Puffa 12 coat and the other was a Ministry of Sound long coat, 13 not quite a Puffa, but in the same style. 14 Q. So it couldn't have been a black CAT jacket? 15 A. Not at £175. 16 Q. How clear were you then that it subsequently got 17 repaired. 18 A. I remember -- I can't remember whether it was either the 19 Allister or the Tracey person came in, and not long 20 after the coat was bought there was something on the 21 sleeve. I think it was a burn mark or a small tear, and 22 they asked could we get it repaired, and we got a small 23 patch sewn on to it. 24 Q. Right. Going over the page [01942]: 25 "This was a Puffa coat and he doesn't believe it was 66 1 in silver. However, he cannot be sure." 2 Was that right: as of December 2000, you couldn't be 3 sure whether it was silver or not? 4 A. Absolutely. I was almost certain it was blue with 5 perhaps a silver cross. The Danielle Poole coat was 6 a long Puffa coat which was blue with quilting on it to 7 make the Puffa effect. It had a big cross on the back 8 of it. I think the cross may have been silver, but it 9 may have been red, but it was a blue coat. 10 Q. Okay. Then it goes on: 11 "He believes the company went out of business but he 12 is endeavouring to locate a brochure with pictures on it. 13 Regarding a silver coat with orange stripes on the 14 sleeves, he believes that the only one similar to that 15 was called a Skanx valued at £80.00 to £90.00, which was 16 similar to a tracksuit top. He is endeavouring to 17 locate a brochure, catalogue with these details." 18 Was that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then if we can look at page [05124], please, and again 21 highlight that text. Again, it is not your document? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I want to get your comments on it, if I may. It is the 24 same detective whose record we have just seen. He says: 25 "P50", that's you, "interviewed on 13th February 67 1 2001 by H", the detective. "He states he has no records 2 left regarding his dealings with Skanx. He states he 3 believes that he sold Allister Hanvey's girlfriend 4 a Danielle Poole coat, but not Skanx..." 5 Was that true? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "He would not allow me to record in his statement the 8 fact that there was a possibility that his shop sold any 9 silver jackets with orange stripes down the sleeves." 10 Is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why? 13 A. Because a statement is what I remember, not what he 14 wants me to remember, and that is the way I was looking 15 at it at the time. On the very front, the top of the 16 statement, it says you are not to say anything that you 17 believe to be true or you do not expect to be -- you 18 know, I can't remember the wording of it, but it was 19 going totally contrary to what I believed a statement 20 should be. 21 Q. It was right, was it, you had no records? 22 A. To my knowledge, I had no records. The record he was 23 looking was not the invoices at that time from 24 I remember it. Whenever someone laid away a coat -- in 25 other words, as happened with the Danielle Poole Puffa 68 1 coat -- their name was put at the top of the page. It 2 was a handwritten, small informal document; the coat at 3 £150, deposit £30, and then further payments of £30, or 4 whatever it would be until it was paid off. 5 It was not a document we would have seen of primary 6 interest. Whenever it was done, it was done. 7 Q. That record had gone by the time of this interview? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You go on: 10 "He would only say he has no recollection of selling 11 such jackets from his shop. He stated if he was asked 12 in 10 courts, he would say that it is possible but was 13 adamant that this would not be included in his 14 statement." 15 Was that for the reason you just told us? 16 A. Yes, absolutely. 17 Q. "On seeing the exhibits AM5 and AM6", and we can look at 18 those if we need to, it is a Skanx catalogue,"he stated 19 that he may have bought similar clothing from Skanx but 20 did not recall buying these articles as displayed on AM5 21 and AM6. I found him dogmatic when I was recording this 22 statement and as can be seen from the statement 23 content he wanted his statement to reflect negatively 24 as opposed to positively the possibility of him selling 25 the silver jackets from his shop with an orange stripe 69 1 down the sleeve, particularly when he stated he would 2 stand up in 10 courts and say it is possible but would 3 not record that in his statement." 4 Is that a fair description of your approach to the 5 statement? 6 A. My approach to the statement was I wanted to say what 7 I knew, not what he wanted me to say was possible. Like 8 it was possible Prince Charles came in and bought a pair 9 of pink lycra tights, but I wasn't going to put that in 10 my statement, because I didn't know that to be true. 11 Q. Just for the sake of the record can you look at 12 page [23437]? Is that the first page of the statement 13 that you, in fact, gave? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Then if we go back to page [80729], this is the 16 statement you gave to the Inquiry. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If I can pick up paragraphs 6 and 7, please, you tell us 19 in paragraph 6: 20 "I kept accounts showing the types of jackets 21 I bought from 'Skanx' in 1996. The documentation that 22 would be produced would include an order form, 23 a delivery form and an invoice. These records were only 24 retained for seven years for tax purposes and so were 25 disposed of in 2003/2004. They were available in 2001 70 1 when the police were making their enquiries. I remember 2 the police making enquiries where Skanx was bought from 3 and at that stage I probably would have known. I did 4 not hold back any information from the police." 5 You didn't give this to the police, did you? 6 A. I would have given absolutely anything I was asked for. 7 The thing I was asked for at the time was the primary 8 document. That was the laid away docket system, the 9 little book where we would have written down 10 Tracey Clarke's name or Allister Hanvey's name and that 11 jacket. 12 Q. But did you appreciate the police were after information 13 about whether it could have been a silver Skanx jacket 14 that you sold? 15 A. They asked me about a silver Skanx jacket. I had no 16 recollection of a silver Skanx jacket. 17 Q. Yes. They obviously pressed you to put in your 18 statement the possibility that you had sold one. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But why didn't you say, "Look, I have the records 21 whether I ever bought one"? 22 A. Because I didn't see it as an issue. To my knowledge 23 I hadn't bought one. I can't categorically -- you know, 24 we are talking about 1996 -- say I didn't buy a silver 25 Skanx jacket. I just had no recollection of buying 71 1 a silver Skanx jacket. 2 I remember Skanx was a very small part of my 3 business, and the main item sold belonging to Skanx was 4 known as an MA2 jacket, which was a black bomber jacket 5 with a circle on the back of it which was reflective. 6 We would have bought that and a few other pieces, but it 7 wasn't the likes of -- Daniel Poole at the time would 8 have been more popular. Nasa would have been more 9 popular. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: You say there is no Skanx jacket which cost 11 as much as £175? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. Skanx was a cheaper label. The 13 normal MA2 jacket, the likes of Nasa, Ministry of Sound 14 and Psycho sold at £80 to £90. The Skanx jacket was 15 a cheaper version, which would have sold for £65, £70. 16 Q. Is it possible that Tracey Clarke bought a silver jacket 17 as well as the Daniel Poole jacket? 18 A. I don't -- I have no recollection of it. 19 Q. We see from your paragraph 7 that you distinctly 20 remember the jacket you sold to Tracey Clarke was 21 a Daniel Poole, not a Skanx jacket. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You confirmed this with your brother. 24 A. Brother-in-law. 25 Q. Could your brother have sold another jacket as well 72 1 without you knowing? 2 A. It is possible, yes, but I don't remember stocking them. 3 Q. If you sold the jacket to Tracey Clarke, how is it that 4 your brother-in-law could assist with this? 5 A. My brother-in-law worked in the shop at the time as 6 well, and I wouldn't have been there 24 hours, you know, 7 every day. So the little book where someone bought 8 this, if she would have come in and paid off £30, he 9 would have been able to lift the book and mark £30 off 10 it. I have asked him and he remembers to the best of 11 his knowledge as well it was a Daniel Poole jacket. 12 Q. Did you sell CAT clothes? 13 A. CAT? 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. What is CAT? 16 Q. C-A-T. 17 A. No. 18 Q. It may be slang for Caterpillar. 19 A. Yes. It is yellow writing on a black thing. I know 20 whenever you say that, but we did not sell CAT to my 21 knowledge. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. There were three other shops in Northern Ireland that 24 I know of sold Skanx at the same time as me. 25 MR UNDERWOOD: All right. Thank you very much, Mr Lyons. 73 1 Those are the questions I have. It's possible others 2 may have some more. 3 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY 4 MR McGRORY: If we could have back up on the screen, please, 5 page [05124]. This is a record of the conversation 6 policeman H had with you. 7 Sorry. I am asking you questions on behalf of the 8 Hamill family. 9 If we can have that lower paragraph highlighted 10 again. 11 What this policeman has recorded in this document is 12 that you stated that you had no records left regarding 13 your dealing with Skanx. 14 Now before you say anything, I am suggesting to you 15 that you were directly asked by H for records of any 16 dealings you had with Skanx, not dealings you had with 17 Tracey Clarke or anybody else about holding clothing 18 over. Do you understand? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that you said then that you had no records left. 21 Now you have told the Inquiry, have you not, that you 22 did actually have those records? 23 A. Well, to the best of my knowledge I keep my records 24 seven years, which we are supposed to do, but it is the 25 primary records, and if I would have been -- I mightn't 74 1 have had them at home, but if I hadn't got them back 2 seven years, the accountant should have had them, and if 3 I had been asked for them, I would have supplied them 4 without an issue. 5 Q. So are you suggesting then that H did not actually ask 6 you for them? 7 A. I remember H asking about the little blue book where 8 I did the primary -- the lay away system, which would 9 have identified the jacket. 10 Q. Do you not agree that the original purchasing 11 documentation from Skanx would have identified the 12 jacket? 13 A. Probably not. What we get down is 24 jackets at £8 -- 14 or £20, 15 jackets at such and such a pound, which -- 15 you know, it may or may not. I don't know. I didn't 16 remember -- Skanx was the label and not the company 17 that sold them to us. He told me they had found the 18 company. So they would have had a record equally so. 19 Q. Well, I think there is -- well, there is -- sir, this is 20 a document which we have been served today, a statement 21 from a Steven Hughes. I think perhaps this witness 22 needs to read that document. Mr Hughes is the -- 23 appears to be the owner of Skanx. 24 MR UNDERWOOD: It is at [81408]. 25 MR McGRORY: The document I have been handed doesn't have 75 1 that reference, sir. 2 MR UNDERWOOD: To be fair, the version at [81408] is 3 precisely the same but not signed. 4 MR McGRORY: Thank you. I'm going to read it to you. This 5 is the statement from a Steven Hughes. He says: 6 "The Inquiry has disclosed a number of documents to 7 me. Where I make specific reference to a document in my 8 statement, I have given the number of the relevant page. 9 In 1997, I was a clothing wholesaler based in London. 10 I designed and sold my own clothing brand under the name 11 Skanks." 12 Okay? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So my point to you is that any clothing you bought from 15 Skanx were bought from Mr Hughes, because he was 16 Skanx? 17 A. Absolutely, but he also owned a clothing label called 18 Hussy, H-U-S-S-Y, which is a female range, which we 19 bought a lot more than we would have bought the Skanx 20 label, but it was the same -- it was bought out of the 21 same warehouse. 22 Q. Okay. 23 "Beyond selling stock to the shop Paranoid in 24 Portadown, I had no other involvement with the town. 25 In my statement of January 24th, 2001 ... I refer to 76 1 a particular jacket which I described as a matt silver 2 jacket with a zipped front. It had orange two-inch 3 braiding down the full length of each sleeve. It also 4 had a woven badge on the right sleeve and a similar 5 badge on the left breast of the jacket. It is possible 6 it had 'Skanks' written in large orange and black 7 lettering on the back. The lettering was luminous. It 8 was a bomber jacket so it would have been waist length 9 although I cannot be certain of that. I do not have 10 a picture of this item." 11 Okay? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. "I have been told other witnesses have described 14 a jacket someone was wearing on the night Robert Hamill 15 was attacked as a bright silver waist-length anorak 16 style jacket with silver sleeves and orange stripes down 17 the sleeves and a black waistband. That does sound 18 similar to the one that I designed and sold to Paranoid 19 in Portadown." 20 [81409]. 21 "The jacket was part of the Autumn/Winter 1996 22 collection. I do not recall if there were any jackets 23 of a similar design in the collection. 24 I recall making 100 of these jackets. Paranoid in 25 Portadown was not one of the main stockists. They were 77 1 a very small company with a small marketing business. 2 I cannot remember how big now, but they have not stuck 3 in my mind as a major stockist. I cannot recall how 4 many of these silver jackets were ordered by Paranoid in 5 Portadown. 6 I do not remember having any further dealings with 7 the police in respect of the Robert Hamill inquiry after 8 24th January 2001. There has been the odd phone call 9 and the odd letter, but do I not know whether these are 10 from the Inquiry or from the police." 11 Now this is the owner of Skanx. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You say he had other labels. He recalls he only made 14 100 of these. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He recalls sending a jacket of this description -- 17 selling one to Paranoid in Portadown. 18 A. Well, if he recalls it, that's fair enough, but 19 I certainly don't recall ever buying it. Skanx was 20 a cheaper jacket and would never have been at the value 21 of £150. 22 Q. With the greatest of respect to you, Mr Lyons, we are 23 not talking about Prince Charles here buying underwear. 24 We are talking about a man who was murdered in the 25 street. 78 1 A. Yes, absolutely. 2 Q. We are talking about whether or not he can be identified 3 as possibly wearing one of these jackets. 4 Now will you accept from me that if this man says 5 that he sold a jacket of that description to you, that 6 is perfectly possible? 7 A. If he is saying he sold me that jacket, I agree that it 8 is possible, but I have no recollection of either buying 9 or selling that jacket. 10 Q. Now I have only one more issue of concern and that is 11 whether or not the documentation that would have 12 accompanied that jacket could have identified it. 13 A. I don't know. I honestly don't know. 14 Q. But had that documentation been made available to the 15 policeman called H when he asked for documentation, it 16 might have done? 17 A. That's possible, yes. 18 MR McGRORY: Thank you. 19 Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB 20 MR McCOMB: Just one very quick question, sir. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 22 MR McCOMB: May the witness be shown [70098]? May that be 23 brought up on the screen and the following 24 page afterwards, [70099]? Do you have those in front of 25 you? I am sorry. Yes. There we go. Are those Skanx 79 1 jackets? 2 A. I am only seeing ... 3 Q. If the witness can be shown all the items. Yes, there 4 they are. 5 A. Yes, those would be Skanx jackets. 6 Q. Are there prices there which are marked? Are there some 7 prices of Skanx jackets? 8 A. There are, yes. 9 Q. I need not take you through each of those in detail. 10 They are in evidence. Does that confirm what you say, 11 that it was very much a cheaper type of jacket? 12 A. Absolutely. The main one we would have bought would be 13 the MA2 there, which is £28, which means it would have 14 retailed at 65. 15 MR McCOMB: Yes. Thank you very much. 16 Cross-examination by MR MALLON 17 MR MALLON: Just one small matter. You ran and you 18 organised a lay-by system? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Tracey Clarke came in and she laid by a jacket with you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You knew her face? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You knew she was working? 25 A. In Going Places, yes. 80 1 Q. So it was someone whom you knew? 2 A. She would have come in and out of the shop. 3 Q. There would have been an element of trust in that, 4 wouldn't there? 5 A. Absolutely, yes. 6 Q. That when she gave you the money, you recorded it in the 7 book, and you knew her when she came in, and it was 8 a frequent and ongoing contact? 9 A. If it was a lay-away system, she would have done it 10 maybe over four or five weeks. Her and the boyfriend 11 did come into the shop on occasions. 12 Q. You remember repairing this jacket? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now you weren't repairing a silver jacket, were you? 15 A. No, it was to my knowledge the blue Puffa jacket, which 16 had been either burnt or a small tear put on it. 17 Q. You remember that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You never saw a Skanx jacket either handed to her or 20 given to Allister? 21 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. And you knew them both as Tracey and Allister? You knew 23 their names? 24 A. Yes. I didn't know their second names, but I knew their 25 first names. 81 1 Q. You knew them from coming into the shop? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So you have a vivid memory of this. Is that right? 4 A. I would remember Allister and Tracey. 5 Q. And you remember also repairing the same jacket, a blue 6 jacket? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: You have said that three times. 8 MR MALLON: Yes. Now in relation to that memory, you say it 9 is a blue jacket, basically blue, with a cross of either 10 silver or red on it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now that cross, do you remember whether it came down the 13 arms or was it on the back, just the best you can 14 remember? 15 A. The best I can remember, it was a big cross about that 16 size on the back of the jacket. 17 Q. On the back of the jacket? 18 A. Either in silver or red. 19 Q. In silver or red. You are quite sure about that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now you come across as a strong-minded man? 22 A. Possibly. 23 Q. When the police tried to suggest to you -- right -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- that there was a silver jacket -- 82 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- can you explain why you were so adamant that that 3 should not go into your statement? 4 A. Because it was a suggestion of what I might -- what they 5 seemed to make me want to think. I didn't know whether 6 that reflected negatively or positively. I was only 7 prepared to say what I thought had happened. 8 Q. Did you feel you were being pressurised by the police -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- to add that into a statement? 11 A. Absolutely. That's why he is saying I am coming through 12 as dogmatic. 13 Q. He expected you to include that into a statement and you 14 went against him by saying, "No, that's not correct"? 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. The only jacket that you sold was the Poole, the blue 17 jacket? 18 A. No, I am not saying the only jacket. I am saying the 19 only one I have a recollection of selling was the 20 Daniel Poole blue jacket. 21 Q. Do you think Tracey Clarke coming up to Christmas when 22 she was laying money over would have had the money to 23 buy a second jacket? 24 A. I don't know. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: How can he say that? 83 1 MR MALLON: Did she make any arrangements for credit for 2 a second jacket? 3 A. I have no recollection. What I have a recollection was 4 buying this expensive Daniel Poole jacket, in around 5 £150, which at that stage was a lot of money for 6 a jacket. It was one of our top price garments and 7 that's why it sticks in my head. We were very happy -- 8 there were a lot of people at that stage wanted the 9 articles. They were not premium priced, and we accept 10 that. They would have come in and put down £20 or £50 11 and came in weekly or every couple of days, thrown 12 another £20 off. As soon as it was paid they were 13 handed the jacket and that was it. 14 Q. Did you get the impression that this was a girl who had 15 a lot of money? 16 A. No. 17 MR MALLON: Thank you. 18 MR McGRORY: I am sorry. There is one issue arising from 19 the questions asked subsequent to those I did ask. So 20 one matter. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 22 Further Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY 23 MR McGRORY: The £25 price that was mentioned to you in 24 respect of that jacket was the wholesale price. Is that 25 correct? 84 1 A. That's the wholesale, yes. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: He tells us I think it sells at £64, £65. 3 A. There is 26 -- we worked on a 2.5. It costs 26 plus 4 VAT. We would have took the 26, multiplied it by 2.5, 5 which comes to 65, and that 65 obviously includes the 6 VAT, which leaves us a margin of about 42% at the time. 7 MR McGRORY: Thank you. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising. Thank you very much. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. You are free now to go. 10 A. Thank you. 11 (The witness withdrew) 12 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, there is a matter arising out of 13 a notice that you ordered yesterday, which I would ask 14 to be dealt with in chambers. I know it will take ten 15 minutes to rearrange that. It should not take us very 16 long to clarify once that happens. Can I suggest that 17 you rise for ten minutes? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you. 19 (12.55 pm) 20 (In camera session) 21 (1.20 pm) 22 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 23 on Tuesday, 10th February 2009) 24 --ooOo-- 25 85 1 I N D E X 2 3 MR EDWARD HONEYFORD (continued) .................. 1 4 Cross-examination by MR ADAIR ............. 2 Re-examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............ 13 5 Questions by THE CHAIRMAN ................. 18 6 MR WILLIAM TREVOR LEATHAM (sworn) ................ 20 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 20 7 Cross-examination by MR MCKENNA ........... 27 Cross-examination by MS DINSMORE .......... 29 8 Cross-examination by MR ATCHISON .......... 53 Cross-examination by MR BERRY ............. 61 9 MR JULIAN MICHAEL LYONS (sworn) .................. 64 10 Examination by MR UNDERWOOD ............... 64 Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ........... 74 11 Cross-examination by MR MCCOMB ............ 79 Cross-examination by MR MALLON ............ 80 12 Further Cross-examination by MR MCGRORY ... 84 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86