- - - - - - - - - - PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF ROBERT HAMILL - - - - - - - - - - Held at: Interpoint 20-24 York Street Belfast on Tuesday, 1st September 2009 commencing at 10.30 am Day 54 1 Tuesday, 1st September 2009 2 (10.30 am) 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Adair, we have all learned with deep 4 regret of the death of Richard Ferguson, Queen's 5 Counsel. He established himself here in 6 Northern Ireland as a leading advocate. He played 7 a part in politics where his was the voice of moderation 8 amid too many voices of stridency. He came to England, 9 where quickly he established himself, and he took Silk 10 in England a second time and was an outstanding 11 advocate, respected by all. He was a forceful advocate, 12 an advocate of integrity and, if I may say, what I think 13 we would all regard as an advocate's advocate. He is 14 greatly mourned and we express our condolences for his 15 family and his friends. May he rest in peace. 16 MR ADAIR: Thank you, sir. May I just add, sir, on behalf 17 of the Bar of Northern Ireland, our condolences to the 18 family and close friends of Richard Ferguson. Of those 19 of us who are old enough and privileged enough to have 20 worked with him over a number of years in what was the 21 Crumlin Road Court House, which was where all the major 22 trials took place in those days, our memories, sir, are 23 of a man who was respected by all his colleagues without 24 exception, a man who was regarded as a person of the 25 highest integrity, an advocate of the greatest skill, 1 1 but can I just say this, sir? What I will remember him 2 as, even more importantly than his skill as an advocate 3 and even more important than his integrity as 4 an advocate, and I think for all those of the Bar who 5 worked with him: we will remember him most importantly 6 as a gentleman. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Now I gather we have to rise for 8 a few minutes while the technology is changed round. 9 May I say that Baroness Richardson unfortunately broke 10 a hip and she may, from time to time, have to stand up 11 and walk around, but there is no need to -- 12 MR ADAIR: Panic. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: -- hold up the proceedings. She will be 14 listening, even though not sitting. 15 (Short break) 16 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, the first witness we have is 17 Tracey Clarke, who I am going to call by video link. 18 MRS TRACEY HANVEY [nee CLARKE] (called) 19 Questions from MR UNDERWOOD 20 A. Hello. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. Can you hear us? 22 A. Good morning. Yes. 23 Q. Is it Miss Clarke or Mrs Hanvey? 24 A. Mrs Hanvey. 25 Q. Mrs Hanvey, will you care to take the oath, please? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 MRS TRACEY HANVEY [nee CLARKE] (sworn) 3 MR UNDERWOOD: Thank you. Now, it is odd giving evidence by 4 video link, because you may find also a time lag and you 5 may find questions come from people you can't see. 6 I understand you have a medical condition which 7 might call for some breaks from time to time. Is that 8 right? 9 A. That's right, yes. 10 Q. I want to ask you, first of all, whether you signed 11 a document, and I want you to look at the document. It 12 is at our page [17327]. 13 A. Okay. Go ahead. 14 Q. Is that a witness statement that you signed? 15 A. That is a witness statement, yes. 16 Q. We know you signed that on 10th May, as long ago as 17 1997. Can you tell us, did you realise shortly after 18 that that other people became aware that you had signed 19 it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you any idea how they became aware of that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What was their reaction? 24 A. Other people were annoyed -- 25 Q. But -- 3 1 A. -- that I had made the statement. 2 Q. I am so sorry. I interrupted you. Other people were 3 annoyed, did you say? 4 A. People were annoyed, yes. 5 Q. Can I try to break these down into groups? Your family 6 knew about this, because you had told them, I think. Is 7 that right? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. So who were the sort of people who were annoyed? Were 10 they friends of yours? 11 A. People around town. People around town, yes. Some 12 friends, some not friends. 13 Q. Okay. What did they say or do about that? 14 A. They made me feel, you know, obviously, that I did the 15 wrong thing. 16 Q. How did they say that? I mean, were they angry with you 17 or what? 18 A. It would be more annoyed. 19 Q. What effect did that have on you? 20 A. Well, I hated myself for it. 21 Q. Did you have to move? 22 A. I didn't have to move. I chose to move to Belfast. 23 Q. Did you change jobs? 24 A. Yes, I changed jobs, yes. 25 Q. Were you aware, once you had made this witness 4 1 statement, that the people you named in it were arrested 2 and kept in custody -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- and charged with murder? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. How did you feel about the effects of the witness 7 statement? You told us you hated yourself for making 8 the statement. How specifically did you feel about 9 having been part of a system that ended up with people 10 you knew being arrested and kept in custody? 11 A. What you are asking me is how did I feel? 12 Q. Uh-huh? 13 A. I felt terrible, because I knew I had lied. I felt -- 14 no words can describe it. 15 Q. You were hating yourself because you had lied in the 16 statement. Is that it? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. At that stage, Allister Hanvey was a boyfriend of yours, 19 I think. Is that right? 20 A. An ex-boyfriend. 21 Q. Obviously from your name you are now married to him. Is 22 that right? 23 A. I was married. I am now separated. 24 Q. Did you two have children together? 25 A. Yes. Uh-huh. Two girls. 5 1 Q. You were due to give evidence to this Inquiry in January 2 this year, were you not? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did that put stress on you? 5 A. Of course. Yes. 6 Q. Why? 7 A. Because it's just hard to deal with. It's hard to deal 8 with that I told lies. People from everywhere think 9 that I did see it, and I never seen it, and it's hard, 10 because nobody will believe me, but I know I never seen 11 anything, and it's hard that I put those people in jail. 12 Q. Were you so stressed by that that you went to see 13 a psychiatrist? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can we have a look at page [75323], please? This is 16 an extract from a report written by a psychiatrist -- 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. -- as a result of that visit. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I just want to read it to you, if I may. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. "As you may be aware, she is involved in a Public 23 Inquiry with respect to the alleged murder of 24 Robert Hamill. Her estranged husband is alleged to be 25 one of the participants in the latter and also has to 6 1 attend the Inquiry. When she was admitted, she admitted 2 to the admitting SHO that she saw her boyfriend kicking 3 Robert Hamill. Her mood had been intermittently poor 4 since this event. She admitted that after the initial 5 police statement, she alleged that the police asked her 6 aunt to bring her to the police station where names were 7 suggested to her with respect to the assailants that 8 accosted Mr Hamill and she simply went along with 9 these." 10 I want to ask you: did you say to the doctor you saw 11 when you went to the hospital that you saw your 12 boyfriend kicking Robert Hamill? 13 A. No. This is inaccurate. No. 14 Q. I am sorry. No, this is what? 15 A. Inaccurate. It is not true. 16 Q. Okay. Would you mind if we saw his notes? 17 A. Who? The doctor's notes? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Is this not them here? 20 Q. This is a record written a couple of months later of 21 what those notes said. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. So is there any difficulty? 24 A. That's fine. 25 Q. Thank you. You go on in this after it says that you 7 1 admitted that you saw your boyfriend kicking 2 Robert Hamill: 3 "Her mood had been intermittently poor since this 4 event." 5 Then it goes on: 6 "She admitted that, after the initial police 7 statement, she alleged that the police asked her aunt to 8 bring her to the police station where names were 9 suggested to her", etc. 10 That's right, isn't it, because you have alleged 11 that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Because you told the Inquiry that, didn't you, when they 14 interviewed you? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Now, when you saw the doctor in February this year, you 17 were wanting his help, were you not? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So were you completely open with him? 20 A. To the best -- at the time, I was very, very ill and 21 very acutely sick, so I would have wanted his help, yes. 22 Q. Now, if we go back then to your statement that you say 23 is untrue, which is at page [17327], I want to ask you 24 about parts of it, if I may. 25 A. Okay. 8 1 Q. All right? Now, if you look at the first page of it, it 2 talks about meeting up with some friends of yours, 3 getting off the bus, etc. 4 If you go down to the last four lines -- 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. -- on the fourth line from the bottom: 7 "Around this time we heard shouting coming from the 8 main street. I can't remember what was said, but it was 9 something like 'Fight, fight'." 10 Now, do you recall that? 11 A. I recall -- I recall hearing stuff -- hearing 12 a commotion downtown, yes. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Then it goes on: 14 "We all ran down to see what was happening. When we 15 got as far as the church, I could see a crowd at the 16 junction of Thomas Street, Market Street." 17 [17328]. 18 Was that true? 19 A. Well, I can say that I ran down the town. I can't 20 really -- yes, it was me. It was me ran down the town 21 to see what was going on, yes. 22 Q. All right. Then it goes on: 23 "I met up with Stephen Bloomer at Poundstretcher and 24 I just sat down beside him." 25 Was that right? 9 1 A. I can't remember. 2 Q. Okay. No reason to have made it up presumably? 3 A. No. 4 Q. "I saw two people lying on the street. One was near the 5 centre of the road and the other was near the footpath 6 close to Eastwoods. The person I saw in the middle of 7 the road I thought was dead, as he was not moving." 8 Was that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. "It was at this time I saw a number of persons gathered 11 around the person lying in the centre of the road." 12 Did you see a number of persons gathered around the 13 person in the road? 14 A. I don't recall that, no, I can just vaguely -- I just 15 remember seeing the person on the road not moving. 16 There was people around. I can't say where they were. 17 There was lots of people around. 18 Q. You may not remember it 12 years on. Is there any 19 reason to believe that, when you said it in this 20 statement, it was false? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. You go on: 23 "These persons were kicking the person on the ground 24 around the head and body." 25 Now, again, is that true? 10 1 A. No. 2 Q. That's definitely false, is it? 3 A. That's definitely false. 4 Q. You can remember that; you did not see that? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Can you remember somebody writing that into the 7 statement, even though it was false? 8 A. Can I remember saying that in the statement? No, 9 I can't remember saying it. Obviously, if you can 10 imagine, I was in a room with police officers, my auntie 11 and people suggesting things to me, and this has 12 obviously been in the statement. I didn't write the 13 statement. Somebody else wrote it. 14 Q. Did you read it before you signed it? 15 A. No. I'm sure I didn't. I was in a state. 16 Q. Okay. So is this your evidence to the Inquiry then: 17 people were suggesting things to you. Somebody wrote 18 them into a statement and you signed it without reading 19 it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So you had no idea what was in the statement when you 22 signed it? 23 A. I knew it was -- well, it was obvious it was to do with 24 the Hamill Inquiry, you know, the Hamill -- the death of 25 Mr Hamill. 11 1 Q. But a lot of what we have just been through is true, 2 isn't it? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Because you have told us that that was what you saw. 5 How did that get into the statement? 6 A. It was suggested. 7 Q. It was suggested and it was true. Is that right? 8 A. No, that wasn't true. No, it wasn't true. I never seen 9 anybody kick or hit anybody. 10 Q. No. I am dealing with the material we went through 11 a few moments ago, which you accept is true. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. How did that get into the statement? 14 A. Obviously I said it. 15 Q. Let's go on in here. I have already read to you the 16 part you say is not true: 17 "I saw them jump on the person on the ground." 18 It goes on: 19 "They jumped all over him and kicked him. I saw the 20 persons who were doing this and I can identify them as 21 (1 ) Dean Forbes (2) Allister Hanvey (3) Stacey Bridgett 22 (4) 'Muck', (5) Rory Robinson." 23 Is that true? Did you see those persons? 24 A. No, no. 25 Q. How did those names get in the statement? 12 1 A. Well, at the stage of this statement, it was two weeks 2 after the incident happened and everybody was talking 3 about it in town. It was all about the place and the 4 police suggested names to me. Also, there was hearsay 5 as well. 6 Q. Let's unpick that a bit. Are you telling us that you 7 knew about those names from talk on the street? 8 A. They were talked about, yes. 9 Q. And, in addition to that, the police suggested them to 10 you. Is that what you are saying? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What was your response when those suggestions were made? 13 A. Well, I didn't see anything. I didn't see the fight, 14 but, you know, my auntie -- I had been discussing it 15 with her over the past from when the incident happened. 16 We discussed it, talked about it. If I heard anything, 17 I would tell her. If she heard anything, she would talk 18 to me, and the police then suggested names and it was 19 just sort of like a snowball of names and I just agreed. 20 Q. So you did agree? That's how it got into the statement, 21 is it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When the police suggested those names to you, you said, 24 "Yes, I saw it"? 25 A. Yes. 13 1 Q. Right. Then reading back into the statement, after the 2 name Rory Robinson it goes on: 3 "The other person lying near Eastwoods was being 4 helped by Michelle Jamieson, but I saw persons run up 5 and kick him around the head and body and Michelle was 6 telling them to stop." 7 Again, did you see that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. How did that get in there? Was that a suggestion you 10 agreed to or was that just written in? 11 A. I have absolutely no idea. I don't even know 12 Michelle Jamieson. 13 Q. Then it goes on: 14 "At that time, I saw a number of police behind the 15 crowd who were attacking the two persons lying on the 16 ground. As far as I could see, the police were not 17 doing much to stop what was happening." 18 Now, how did that get in? 19 A. I don't know. I have no idea. 20 Q. Is it your suggestion, perhaps, that the police wanted 21 you to say in a statement that they were not doing much? 22 A. No. I don't know. I can remember seeing a Land Rover, 23 and that's about it. 24 Q. So your memory is you can remember seeing a Land Rover 25 but not seeing policemen who were not doing much. Is 14 1 that right? 2 A. I don't -- it's very vague. It's really hard to 3 remember. 4 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the circumstances of the 5 statement then. On the face of it, it seems unlikely, 6 doesn't it, that anybody would have been suggesting this 7 to you. Do you accept that? 8 A. I understand where you're coming from, of course, 9 uh-huh. 10 Q. Can you help us at all about whether there was 11 a suggestion that you agreed to or whether this did come 12 from you? 13 A. I really don't know. I can't help. In that 14 circumstance, I can't help. I don't know. 15 Q. All right. It goes on: 16 "The next thing I remember was more police arrived 17 and pushed the crowd back. The ambulance arrived and 18 took the two persons who had been attacked by the crowd 19 away. The police then made us move up the street to the 20 church. They later moved us up to West Street." 21 Is all of that right or not? 22 A. That would be right. 23 Q. Again, just help us with the mechanics of how that got 24 into a statement. Was that you telling the police what 25 you saw and then writing it down into the statement? 15 1 A. I would have said that to the police, yes. 2 Q. Is this fair: on the first page of what we looked at 3 here, a lot of it was true and would have come from you. 4 We are getting into a part here that was true and came 5 from you, but when it says you saw these named persons, 6 including your boyfriend, kick Robert Hamill, that came 7 from suggestions by the police and word on the street 8 and you just accepted it. Is that it? 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. Then, if we go on, you say: 11 "It was at this time I spoke to one of the police 12 whom I know to be Robbie Atkinson. I asked him if the 13 two men who had been kicked were they okay and he shook 14 his head." 15 Did you talk to Robbie Atkinson? 16 A. It could have happened, yes. 17 Q. Then: 18 "We then went on to the party at Tracy McAlpine's 19 house ..." 20 The address is blanked out there: 21 "I'm not sure of the name of the new estate. There 22 was a good crowd at the party and everyone was 23 discussing what had happened in the town centre, and 24 some of the people who had been involved appeared to be 25 happy about what they had done. I remember they 16 1 mentioned the name of one of them as Hamill, but I can't 2 remember what exactly was said." 3 [17329]. 4 Did you go to a gathering at Tracy McAlpine's place? 5 A. I can't remember going to the party, but that would have 6 been the done thing in those days. 7 Q. Again, it looks unlikely that would have been 8 a suggestion from the police and it seems more likely it 9 would have come from you. Would you agree with that? 10 A. Yes. That's right. 11 Q. Equally, where it says there that there had been 12 a discussion about it, again, did that come from you? 13 A. I can't remember any discussions, but it probably would 14 have been talked about. 15 Q. Uh-huh. 16 A. That's probably true. 17 Q. Okay. Was Allister Hanvey at that party? 18 A. I can't remember. 19 Q. Then the statement goes on: 20 "I went home the next day and told my parents what 21 had happened and about the two men being attacked in the 22 town centre and that my ex-boyfriend, Allister Hanvey, 23 was involved in it." 24 So there is an assertion in your statement that you 25 went home the next day and told your parents that you 17 1 had seen it and that Allister had been involved in it. 2 Now, how did that get in the statement? 3 A. Because whenever I did go home, I had a discussion with 4 my mum, not then that I had seen it, but I spoke about 5 the incident in the town and said that Allister was 6 involved. 7 Q. So you did tell your mum that Allister had been 8 involved? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Why did you do that? 11 A. Because I didn't like him at the time and I just put his 12 name in it. 13 Q. To your mum? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How would that hurt him? 16 A. Don't know. Can't say. I was only 17. I don't know 17 why I did it. 18 Q. So this passage is actually true then, isn't it: 19 "I went home the next day and told my parents what 20 had happened and about the two men being attacked in the 21 town centre and that my ex-boyfriend, Allister Hanvey, 22 was involved in it." 23 You did tell your parents that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Then you go on: 18 1 "I spoke to Allister Hanvey on the Tuesday and 2 I told him about what I had seen and that I had told the 3 police about everything and that he was in deep trouble. 4 He said he would meet me after work and I met him 5 outside my house at about 11.05 pm. He wanted to know 6 what I had told the police, and, as I had not been seen 7 by the police, I made up a few things to annoy him." 8 Now, is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So you actually had a meeting with him. You rattled him 11 by telling him, falsely, that you had ratted him out to 12 the police. Yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Again, this was true and this was something you 15 volunteered to the police to go into the statement. Is 16 that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You go on in the statement: 19 "I remember Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and 20 Allister said that Robbie Atkinson had been very good to 21 him, because on the Sunday morning after the incident in 22 the town centre, he rang him at about 8.00 am and told 23 him to get rid of the clothes he was wearing the 24 previous night." 25 Now, did that get in the statement? 19 1 A. Well, my aunt had told me that information. 2 Q. How did she get it? 3 A. She is friendly with Robert Atkinson and stuff. 4 Q. Did you believe it? 5 A. I was quite gullible when I was 17. I'd believe 6 anything. 7 Q. So you believed it to be true and you told the police? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Are you sure you didn't get it from Allister? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It goes on: 12 "Since then, Allister has contacted me on numerous 13 occasions and he keeps asking me what I have said to the 14 police. He also told me that Robbie Atkinson was 15 ringing him every day to keep him up-to-date with the 16 police investigation." 17 Again, where did that come from? 18 A. My auntie. 19 Q. What, your auntie told you that he was getting in touch 20 with you every day -- getting in touch with Hanvey every 21 day? 22 A. It was discussed. 23 Q. Again, did you believe it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you told the police that? 20 1 A. Yes, but, remember, Andrea McKee was with me at the time 2 I gave my statement to the police. She was with me. 3 Q. Uh-huh. Then -- 4 A. Sorry. Sorry. It was just talked about. It was talked 5 about in the room. She was talking as well, you know. 6 She was telling the police things as well. 7 Q. Right. The two police officers who were there have 8 given evidence to us and they say that your aunt kept 9 quiet through all this. You are disagreeing with that, 10 are you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let's go on in the statement: 13 "On Thursday of last week Allister's mother rang my 14 work to speak to me, but I was off that day and I didn't 15 speak to her. I spoke to Allister Hanvey yesterday and 16 I asked him what he did to the persons that they 17 attacked in the centre of Portadown who is now dead. 18 Allister said he jumped on his head and kicked his head. 19 I told him that is how he got the fractured skull, and 20 he said he doesn't have a fractured skull anymore." 21 How did that get into the statement? 22 A. I made it up. 23 Q. So you were there. You were gullible. People were 24 suggesting things to you. Nonetheless, you went out of 25 your way to make that up. Is that what you are telling 21 1 us? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that right? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Why did you do that? 6 A. I was just being a little rat, a bitch, wanting to get 7 him in trouble. 8 Q. So this is nothing to do with the police being bullies 9 or your aunt putting words into your mouth, is it? This 10 is you volunteering that your boyfriend murdered 11 Robert Hamill. Is that it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And all because you were a bitch, you say? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Let's look at what other people say about what you were 16 saying at the time, shall we? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. We have a statement from your mother. Can we have 19 a look at page [14896], please? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. You will have to take it from me, I am afraid, that this 22 is your mother's statement, because we have taken her 23 name out of it. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. If we look about halfway down the first page you see in 22 1 the middle of a line: 2 "It was around 12 midday when the news was on ..." 3 Are you with me? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "... and I remember Tracey turning the radio up at the 6 news. She told me that she had seen an awful fight in 7 the town last night." 8 Did you tell her you had seen an awful fight in the 9 town? 10 A. See, it is hard. I would have implicated that I was on 11 the town that night and I had probably said that 12 I'd seen it, but hadn't, just wanted to, you know, bump 13 myself up. I don't know why. I just did. I just don't 14 know why. 15 Q. Okay. If we go to the bottom of the page, there is 16 a sentence which starts: 17 "Allister Hanvey ..." 18 Do you see that? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. "... a boy from [blank] had been going out with Tracey. 21 However, I know on that Saturday night Tracey didn't go 22 to the Coach with him, but I think they both met up at 23 a party some time later on the Saturday night after this 24 fight in Portadown." 25 Again, does that help you now remember whether you 23 1 did see him at the party? 2 A. No. I can't remember the party. 3 Q. All right. Then if we go halfway down that second page, 4 [14897] -- 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. -- there is a sentence which starts on the left-hand 7 side: 8 "After the first few days ..." 9 Do you have it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. "After the first few days, Tracey started to talk to us, 12 that's me and her stepdad, Jim Murray, about the fight 13 in Portadown and what went on. She told us that 14 Robbie Atkinson, who I know was a policeman in 15 Portadown, had told Allister to burn his coat." 16 So according to your mother you were telling her 17 about the conversation between Robbie Atkinson and 18 Allister Hanvey. Did you? 19 A. That information would have been talked about freely 20 between Andrea McKee, my mum, myself. We would have 21 talked about those things. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. It was gossip. 24 Q. You then go on: 25 "Tracey was saying, 'Imagine telling him to burn 24 1 that good silver coat'. It cost Tracey £175 out of 2 Paranoid in High Street mall." 3 She goes on, missing out a bit: 4 "Tracey knew a girl who worked in Paranoid and she 5 had left the jacket over and Tracey was paying weekly 6 out of her pay so that Allister could have it by 7 Christmas 1996." 8 She goes on to describe the coat. Did you buy 9 Allister Hanvey a coat then? 10 A. I bought Allister lots of clothes, jackets, zip-ups, 11 jeans, coats, yes. 12 Q. Do you remember buying one on the lay-away system for 13 Christmas from Paranoid in 1996? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you accept this is what you said at the time, though? 16 A. Yes, but, if you understand, if Andrea had said to me 17 about the burning of the coat, that would have annoyed 18 me, because she had told me that. 19 Q. If we go -- the final two lines of that page. It says: 20 "She also said that Robbie had told him, that's 21 Allister, to burn everything; trousers, shirts, the lot. 22 Tracey said that Allister had burned the clothes and 23 that his mother helped him to do this." 24 Where did that information come from? 25 A. Again, Andrea McKee. 25 1 Q. Did -- I am sorry. Go on. 2 A. I am sure yous know this, but this statement was given 3 three years after the incident. 4 Q. Why are you saying that? 5 A. What I am saying is Andrea, my mum, you know, it was all 6 talked about, you know. It was -- nothing was hidden. 7 You know what I mean? Andrea talked to her all the time 8 about it. Gossip. That's all they had to talk about. 9 Q. Go on. 10 A. I am just saying the information, you know, was all 11 hearsay. 12 Q. What she is saying here is you told her that Robbie had 13 told Allister to burn the clothes. Now, did you tell 14 her that Robbie had told Allister to burn the clothes? 15 A. That information come from Andrea. 16 Q. Directly from Andrea to your mother, or directly to you 17 and then to your mother? 18 A. Possibly from Andrea to me to my mum. 19 Q. But, did you believe it? 20 A. As I said before, I was very gullible. Whatever she 21 said I believed. 22 Q. Did you talk to Allister Hanvey at all about this? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you ever spoken to him about your witness 25 statement? 26 1 A. It was never really discussed. 2 Q. So you went on to marry him after he had been in prison 3 for six months after you gave a statement against him 4 and you never really discussed it. Is that it? 5 A. He knew that -- he knew that -- I had told him about the 6 whole -- what it was like at the police station and the 7 talk of Andrea and things. He knows that. 8 Q. Right. So you told him that the police made suggestions 9 to you and you made a false statement against him. Is 10 that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You told him that a lot of this information came from 13 Andrea. Is that right? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. That has become the story, hasn't it? 16 A. It is not a story, it's the truth. 17 Q. Okay. If we go halfway down this third page, [14898], 18 towards the right there is a sentence which starts: 19 "She later told me that she phoned 20 Elizabeth Hanvey ..." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. "... and told her that Hamill was dead. She said 24 Elizabeth told her, 'That throws a different light on 25 things'." 27 1 Did you say that to your mum? 2 A. I can't remember. 3 Q. Have you any other explanation for how your mother could 4 have got that information? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you talk to Elizabeth Hanvey at about this time? 7 A. I have no idea, no idea. 8 Q. Because that would fit, wouldn't it, with you having 9 conversations after the murder with Allister Hanvey 10 about his part in it and about a cover-up? Do you 11 agree? 12 A. A cover-up for who? 13 Q. By Robbie Atkinson telling him to burn his clothes. 14 A. Allister didn't tell me that. That information come 15 from Andrea. 16 Q. But this couldn't have come from Andrea, could it, that 17 you phoned Elizabeth Hanvey, and Elizabeth saying, "That 18 throws a different light on things". 19 Can you give us any explanation for that other than 20 that being true? 21 A. No. 22 Q. OK. "Some time around this time a detective called 23 John McAteer called. I can't remember exactly when this 24 was. He talked to Tracey, although I don't think he got 25 much sense out of her. Although I can't be sure of when 28 1 McAteer called, I know that Allister Hanvey called with 2 Tracey on a Friday and took her out for lunch. Tracey 3 said that she asked Allister what exactly happened that 4 night and Allister told her everything." 5 So your mother is there saying the police first came 6 to see you. You didn't make much sense to them. You 7 then had lunch with Allister Hanvey and he told you 8 everything. Is that right? 9 A. I don't remember going out for lunch with Allister. 10 Q. Again, that's not something that could have come from 11 Andrea McKee, could it? That must be from you? 12 A. That's true. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Then: 14 "It was that same night that Andrea McKee, 15 Michael McKee and Tracey went to Portadown Police 16 Station. They went to make a statement that night and 17 I remember John McAteer phoning that day to ask me to 18 get Tracey up to make a statement, and, as she was 19 working in the Chinese restaurant at, I think, 20 West Street, I phoned the Tae Kwon Do club to get 21 Michael and Andrea to collect her after work, as she 22 finished at 10.30, and take her to the police station." 23 [14899]. 24 Is that what happened? Is that the sequence of 25 events? The police came to see you -- John McAteer that 29 1 is. You didn't tell him anything. You then had 2 a conversation with Allister Hanvey in which he told you 3 everything, and you then went to the police station and 4 gave the statement? 5 A. No. The police came out to the house, you know, to 6 chat. Then I had to go into the police station and 7 filled in a questionnaire, which yous would have 8 a report of that. Then two days later, if I am right, 9 10th May, my auntie picked me up from work and brought 10 me to the police station. 11 Q. Can you explain how that came about, that you were 12 brought back in? 13 A. I know now. 14 Q. Did you not know at the time? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You see, what Andrea McKee has said is that you were 17 telling anybody who cared to listen at the Tae Kwon Do 18 club what you knew about the murder and you were 19 overheard by an off-duty policeman who asked her who you 20 were, and, as a result of that, she took you to the 21 police. What do you say about that? 22 A. I say that Andrea was -- what can I say -- she was the 23 chatterbox at the Tae Kwon Do gym. It was talked about 24 freely at the gym, where she spoke about it as well. 25 Information, she had known Robbie Atkinson, 30 1 Eleanor Atkinson, the Hanveys, everybody. It was all 2 discussed -- just not me, it was discussed by everybody 3 and it was the talk of the town really and the police -- 4 I think a police officer had said to Andrea, asked 5 Andrea questions and Andrea told him about 6 Robbie Atkinson phoning the Hanvey house. 7 That's what I know of it now, and, also, Andrea met 8 police officers in the dark at a cemetery, I think, to 9 discuss it as well. 10 Q. Can you tell us why your aunt would make you the subject 11 of all this? If this is talk all round the town and 12 everybody is talking about it and she is the chatterbox, 13 why she would take you to the police? 14 A. Because I was a chatterbox as well. 15 Q. Wasn't it that you knew what was going on? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So she just thought she would take you to a police 18 station at 10.30 one night after you finished work to 19 make you make a statement because you were a chatterbox. 20 Is that it? 21 A. Well, it was -- any information -- if I can say any 22 information that I had heard I talked to Andrea about 23 and it just went from there. I was brought to the 24 police station. They said, "You seen it". I said 25 "I didn't see it", which is true, and, you know, I can't 31 1 describe what the police station was like, because it 2 was horrific. 3 Q. You are telling us, are you, that you plainly told the 4 police that you did not see the fight and did not see 5 who kicked Robert Hamill? 6 A. That's what I said in the questionnaire. 7 Q. I know that's what you said in the questionnaire. Did 8 you say that when the statement was taken from you, 9 though? 10 A. I just went along with it. They suggested names, and 11 obviously hearsay as well. 12 Q. It was Mr McAteer, wasn't it, who was involved 13 throughout? 14 A. No idea. 15 Q. Well, John McAteer is the person who took the 16 questionnaire from you, isn't he? 17 A. Well, that's who it says. I don't recall him. I don't 18 know what he looks like. 19 Q. And it was Mr McAteer who took the statement from you, 20 wasn't it? 21 A. The same man, yes. 22 Q. So was there no conversation about this, about how it 23 was suddenly you were telling different things? 24 A. Say that again. 25 Q. Did you not have a conversation with him about why it 32 1 was you were saying on 8th May you had seen nothing, but 2 on 9th May that you had seen all this? 3 A. There was a lot of pressure in the police room. 4 Q. Tell us about the pressure. 5 A. I now know the police -- I was in a room and it was 6 light and dark. They said, "We can prove you seen it". 7 I say, "I didn't see it". They said, "We can prove it". 8 They banged the table. They said they would put me in 9 jail. They were also -- sorry. They also said that 10 they would break down my mum's door, and I now know that 11 they were in another room questioning someone else and 12 just gathering loads of information, because they wanted 13 to get people for this murder, because it had changed 14 from a beating up to a murder, and I just went along 15 with it. 16 Q. Who was banging on the table? 17 A. The police. 18 Q. Which police? 19 A. The police that was in front of me. 20 Q. There were two police involved, as far as we know. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. One is John McAteer, who is the man who took the 23 questionnaire from you in the first place. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. The other was a policewoman. Which one of them was 33 1 banging the table? 2 A. I don't know. I just remember the banging on the table. 3 Q. Were they standing up and banging the table or sitting 4 down and doing it? 5 A. I think they were standing up. 6 Q. Were you sitting down? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So they were standing over you, were they, banging the 9 table? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What was Andrea doing? 12 A. She was just sitting beside me. 13 Q. And you say they were threatening to beat your mother's 14 door down? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which of them made that threat? 17 A. I'm not too sure. 18 Q. Did they say why they would bash your mother's door 19 down? 20 A. They said they could prove that I seen it, and I didn't. 21 Q. What would banging your mother's door down have to do 22 about that? 23 A. They said they would bang down the door to arrest me and 24 put me in jail. 25 Q. Uh-huh. Did they tell you what they would put you in 34 1 jail for? 2 A. They did. I can't remember. 3 Q. But despite that, you gave them a statement, a lot of 4 which was true, didn't you? 5 A. A lot of which was true, yes. 6 Q. So you were able to be composed enough at the age of -- 7 what were you -- 17? 8 A. Not composed in any way, no. 9 Q. But you were able to tell them enough truth to make 10 perhaps two, two and a half pages of true statement? 11 A. It is not all -- the statement is not all true. 12 Q. If we go back to your mother's statement, please, on 13 page [14899], page 4 of the statement. 14 A. I don't know where it is. 15 Q. Have you got page 4 there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is the part of your mother's statement where she is 18 talking about you going to the police station to give 19 the statement. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It starts off: 22 "That night Michael", that's your stepfather -- 23 sorry, it is Michael McKee, "came down and sat with me 24 after he had dropped them off at the police station. 25 I think he went to his house first before he came down 35 1 because they were a long time. I phoned up a couple of 2 times to see how she was doing and I spoke to 3 John McAteer who told me she was doing all right and her 4 aunt Andrea was with her. They were dropped out later, 5 but I don't know who left them home. Tracey was saying 6 she told the truth. She was agitated." 7 Can you explain how your mother came to say that, 8 when you came back, you told her you had told the truth? 9 A. No. I told the police what they wanted. 10 Q. What did you tell your mother about it? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. Did you not go back and say, "I want to make a complaint 13 against the police. They stood over me. They bashed 14 the table. They threatened to send me to prison and 15 they threatened to beat your door down"? 16 A. This is the police we are talking about? 17 Q. Why didn't you tell your mother all that? 18 A. I didn't. 19 Q. Why not? 20 A. Because that's the police. The police think they rule 21 and, you know, they pressurised me into doing that and 22 I just wanted to try to forget about it, because it was 23 horrendous. 24 Q. Did the police have anything further to do with you 25 after this in the following weeks? 36 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Did the policewoman who took the statement come to visit 3 you? 4 A. I don't recall it. 5 Q. Did John McAteer come to visit you? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Did they try to get you another job? 8 A. Did the police try to get me another job? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No, I don't think so. 11 Q. Did they try to help you get into the navy? 12 A. I don't know. No. I don't think so. 13 Q. Did they help you move house? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You see, because they have told us, and we have 16 statements to this effect, that the police officers came 17 and did home visits afterwards and that they tried to 18 help you move jobs, including getting into the navy, and 19 you don't -- 20 A. Sure, I could never get into the navy with asthma. So 21 I don't think that's -- that's not true. 22 Q. I am not suggesting you got into the navy. I am 23 suggesting they helped you try. Do you remember that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So this was it then, was it? This was brutal, bullying 37 1 police who forced a statement out of you and then left 2 you alone afterwards? Is that fair? 3 A. I can't remember them coming to see me. No, I can't 4 remember. 5 Q. Then after this she goes on, your mother: 6 "I think the following morning", so this will be the 7 10th or so of May, "the Hanveys rang my home telephone 8 number and Tracey spoke to them. I think Tracey said it 9 was Elizabeth. She told Tracey that Allister was 10 arrested this morning. Tracey started crying and I told 11 her to go to work to keep herself occupied." 12 Is that the way it happened; that the morning you 13 gave your statement the Hanveys rang up to say that 14 Allister had been arrested as a result? 15 A. They would have phoned and told me. 16 Q. Blaming you? 17 A. I don't know if they knew I had made a statement then. 18 Q. When you left the police station, what did you expect to 19 happen about the people you named? Had you any idea? 20 A. I thought they would be lifted. 21 Q. Then it goes on: 22 "I'm not aware of anyone putting pressure on Tracey, 23 but her friends stopped talking to her and I think she 24 thought we might have to move out of [the area] and she 25 wouldn't want this to happen." 38 1 That's right, isn't it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. If we look then to see what your -- sorry, I also need, 4 if I may, to show you something that happened later, 5 that your mother was shown a diagram of the jacket that 6 she recognised as being similar to one you had bought. 7 Let's see if that helps you. It is at page [05119]. 8 A. Thank you. 9 Q. I am not suggesting you have seen this document. If you 10 look at the last four lines of this page: 11 "Showed AM5 and AM6 to", and you will have to take 12 my word for it that it is your mother's name that has 13 been blanked out there. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. "... on 5.3.01. She stated that the jacket looked 16 similar to the one Allister Hanvey had. However, she 17 thought the one Allister had was slightly shorter and 18 had black cuffs and a black waistband. She can't recall 19 orange stripes on the sleeves." 20 Now, if we look at page [70098], this is AM5. If we 21 go over the page, [70099], we see a catalogue, 22 autumn/winter 1996. At the top right-hand corner, there 23 is a silver sports jacket. 24 If we go over the page again to [70100], that's it 25 blown up. What the police were showing your mother, and 39 1 we will see they showed your stepfather as well, was 2 this catalogue of a wholesalers. They were suggesting 3 that might be the jacket which you had bought from 4 Paranoid and which might have got destroyed. 5 Does that help you recollect what you might have 6 bought him? 7 A. No. 8 Q. All right. Now, if we can have a look at your 9 stepfather's statement, please -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we leave that diagram, there is 11 a price there. Is that the wholesaler's price? 12 MR UNDERWOOD: That's the wholesaler's price, yes. 13 If we go to page [17338], please -- 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. -- this is your stepfather's statement. As you know, 16 this was made to the police in 2000. If we go halfway 17 down the first page, he is talking about 27th April. 18 Halfway down, towards the right-hand side: 19 "She said they all came back from the Coach and 20 there was a fight." 21 Do you see? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. "She said a lot ran up to the fight and Allister Hanvey 24 was there." 25 Do you remember telling him that? 40 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. If we go over the page to [17339], talking about 3 soon afterwards, three lines down: 4 "She said that Allister wanted to take her out for 5 lunch. She said Allister wanted to meet her and he had 6 given her dog's abuse on the phone and pestered her 7 until she gave in and he wanted to talk to her to get it 8 sorted out." 9 Again, did you tell him, or would he have reason to 10 believe, that Allister and you were talking to each 11 other shortly afterwards? 12 A. Is that not something similar to what my mum said? 13 Q. It is, and I am asking you whether it is true. 14 A. I am not too sure. I wasn't going out with Allister at 15 the time. I can't remember it. 16 Q. All right. If we go halfway down this page, on the 17 right-hand side there is a sentence that starts: 18 "I remember after Tracey met Allister ..." 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. "... for lunch, Tracey said that Allister felt quite 21 proud of what he'd done. This was after", that's your 22 mother, "had asked her how she got on with Allister. 23 Tracey also said that Allister said, 'Sure, he was only 24 a Fenian bastard', and that was the type of attitude he 25 had." 41 1 How did that happen? How did your stepfather get 2 that information? 3 A. I'm not too sure. I can't remember having the 4 conversation with him. 5 Q. Can you give us any explanation other than this: that 6 you did, in fact, meet Allister Hanvey somewhere between 7 27th April and 9th May and he told you what had happened 8 and that he was proud of it? 9 A. It could have been maybe I met him and I made it up, 10 just like I made it up to him whenever I said about 11 going to the police whenever I didn't. 12 Q. Uh-huh. Going further on: 13 "Again, sometime when I was sitting at the kitchen 14 table with Tracey, Tracey said she had went over to the 15 back of the Land Rover to talk to Robert Atkinson. She 16 said she told him, 'That's the ones on the street', and 17 Allister to go on, and he told Allister to, 'Get them 18 clothes burnt'." 19 So there is your stepfather saying that you told him 20 that Robbie Atkinson had advised Allister to burn his 21 clothes on the night. 22 Can you help us with that, comment on it? 23 A. No, I can't comment. 24 Q. Then it goes on: 25 "Tracey said she had been sitting on the kerb and 42 1 Atkinson was by himself at the back of the Land Rover, 2 so she went over to him and that's when she heard him 3 telling them to go and telling Allister to burn his 4 clothes." 5 A. Again, if I can just say that this statement was written 6 three years after, you know. You know, it's all similar 7 to my mum's. It is all just all talk. 8 Q. Why do you tell us to note that these statements were 9 made three years later? What's your point? 10 A. My point is that my mum, Jim, and Andrea McKee would 11 have -- they would sit and talk about it all the time. 12 Q. Are you suggesting -- 13 A. The information is all very, very similar I just find. 14 It's, you know, as if -- I don't know. I don't know. 15 Q. All right. Then if we go to the next page [17340], 16 page 3 of the statement, halfway down on the right-hand 17 side there is a sentence that starts: 18 "I remember on the night Tracey went to the police 19 station ..." 20 Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 22 Q. "I remember on the night Tracey went to the police 23 station to make her statement, I was in bed. We got 24 a phone call to our house. I think [your mother], told 25 me that Andrea called to say she was with Tracey and 43 1 would look after her. I think John McAteer took this 2 statement. I remember Andrea later saying that she came 3 from the gym to the Chinese and took Tracey to the 4 station. I remember I got up that night and, when 5 Tracey came home, she was crying and [your mother] was 6 comforting her. I also remember, although I don't know 7 exactly when, Tracey said Allister had got rid of the 8 clothes and burnt them." 9 Now, again, when you got back from the police 10 station and you were upset, surely, if you were upset 11 because you had been bullied and threatened with the 12 door being knocked down and threatened with being 13 arrested, you would have told your mother and your 14 stepfather? 15 A. I was afraid. 16 Q. What were you afraid of? 17 A. The police. 18 Q. But a 17-year-old girl is going to say that sort of 19 thing to her mother, isn't she, if she is threatened by 20 the police? 21 A. Not really, because my mum, Andrea and Jim were all 22 talking about this. It was easier for me to go along 23 with what everybody was saying. 24 Q. I am not getting to that point. The point I am getting 25 at is that you had just gone through a very horrible 44 1 experience where everybody was talking about it, but you 2 are the one suffering, because you are the one who was 3 going to get your boyfriend lifted, and you are the one 4 who has had one or two people perhaps leaning over 5 a table, banging it and threatening to beat your mum's 6 door down. 7 Surely, if you were upset and crying to your mum, 8 you are going to tell her some of that? 9 A. I never told anybody. 10 Q. In this statement he goes on about the jacket: 11 "Tracey had bought him a silver jacket from Paranoid 12 for that Christmas, that's 1996 ..." 13 And he goes on talking about it there. 14 Again, do you accept that's probably true, that you 15 had probably did buy a silver jacket and people had seen 16 it? 17 A. It could have been a silver jacket. I don't know. 18 I think there was an Adidas jacket with an orange 19 stripe. I am not too sure. 20 Q. Right. Now, if we go to -- I don't have much more for 21 you. Another ten minutes or so and we will be through 22 this. All right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I want to ask you to look at page [17591], please: 25 I want to pick up the middle three paragraphs of this. 45 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. This is a note made by Mr Davison of the Director of 3 Public Prosecutions Office of a meeting you had on 4 17th October 1997. I will just read it to you, if I 5 may: 6 "On 17th October 1997, at 3.30 pm, I attended 7 a consultation between Gordon Kerr, QC, and Witness A." 8 That's what you were being called then, wasn't it: 9 "Detective Superintendent Cooke, Detective Sergeant 10 Bradley and Detective Constable McAteer were also 11 present. Witness A was accompanied by her parents. 12 "Witness A is a pleasant-looking, reasonably 13 well-dressed young woman. As she walked into the room, 14 she looked worried, and as soon as Gordon Kerr started 15 to talk to her, she started to cry. She cried quite 16 frequently during the consultation, but was able to 17 relate the events of the night more or less in 18 accordance with her statement. She had not had 19 an opportunity to refresh her memory. She is reasonably 20 articulate and seemed to be telling the truth. If she 21 were to give evidence, I consider that she would come 22 across as very truthful. 23 "At the end of the consultation, she was asked about 24 the possibility of giving evidence. She stated that she 25 would rather die than give evidence. She said that she 46 1 wouldn't give evidence because she loves 2 Allister Hanvey, to whom she was formerly engaged. She 3 stated that it was hard to give evidence against the 4 others because she knows them all. She and her family 5 are all very worried about the possibility of attack by 6 Loyalist paramilitaries. Her father stated that he 7 would like to see the accused going to court, but he 8 stated that going to court will destroy Tracey." 9 Now, first of all, given that you were there with 10 your mum and your stepdad, did you have any conversation 11 with them before you got there about what you were going 12 to say and how this was going to go? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you know why you were being interviewed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What did you think? 17 A. It was to do with the Inquiry, the DPP or something. 18 I'm not too sure. 19 Q. What we have been told by them is that this was to do 20 with testing your evidence to see whether they could 21 prosecute the people you named in your witness 22 statement. Did you understand that? 23 A. Yes. I can understand it, yes. 24 Q. Did you understand it at the time, I mean? 25 A. I'm not too sure. I'm not too sure. 47 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I just know that these people wanted to question me. 3 Q. Yes. What we are also told is that you were asked about 4 matters that were in your police statement, the one we 5 looked at earlier, but they didn't show you that 6 statement again. Is that right? 7 A. If it says -- if they say that, that's true then. 8 I can't remember. 9 Q. What they say was important from your point of view was, 10 although you had not seen your statement again, they 11 asked you questions and the answers you gave them were 12 the same as in your police statement. 13 What do you say about that? 14 A. I am not going to -- you know, what I said in my 15 statement I am never going to forget, you know, because 16 I implicated people in the murder of Robert Hamill and 17 I didn't see it. So I am never going to forget that to 18 the day I die. 19 Q. When they asked you, "What did you see on the night?" 20 and you told them you saw the five people you named in 21 your statement -- 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. -- why did you do that? 24 A. I didn't know -- I just did. I didn't know I could tell 25 them the truth. I didn't tell anybody the truth. 48 1 I didn't know I could tell anybody the truth. I just 2 said what I had said previously. 3 Q. But they were not asking you whether the statement was 4 true, were they? 5 A. What do you mean? 6 Q. I mean, they were asking you what you saw, weren't they? 7 A. Yes, but I had said in my statement that I saw these 8 people, yes. 9 Q. But they were not asking to you say the statement was 10 untrue. They were simply asking you "What did you see, 11 Tracey?" 12 A. So I told them what I said in the first statement. 13 Q. That's the position, isn't it? That's what happened? 14 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 15 Q. The reason you did that, so you now say, is that you 16 didn't realise you could tell them the truth. Is that 17 it? 18 A. I just kept to my same story. I just kept to the same 19 story and I wanted to get out of there as quickly as 20 possible. 21 Q. Nobody was banging the table, were they? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Or threatening you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So why didn't you just tell them the truth? 49 1 A. I have no answer for that. I just went along with what 2 I had said before. 3 Q. Did you, in fact, love Allister? 4 A. Did I love him? Yes. 5 Q. Were you engaged at that stage? 6 A. No. 7 Q. These others, did you actually know them, the ones you 8 named in your statement? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you -- 11 A. Well, not all of them. Sorry. I didn't know "Muck". 12 I never ... 13 Q. Is that why you had to call him "Muck" and not 14 Marc Hobson? 15 A. No. I don't know -- I know him now, but I didn't then. 16 Q. Did you know, on 17th October when you had this meeting, 17 that these people were all in prison? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So by telling Mr Davison and Mr Kerr what you told them, 20 you were sustaining the case against them that kept them 21 in prison. Did you know that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did it cross your mind to say to these gentlemen, "Look, 24 what I said in my police statement was untrue. I was 25 young. I was gullible. I was vindictive. I was being 50 1 bullied. Now let them go"? 2 A. I didn't say anything. I just went along with my first 3 statement. 4 Q. You see, it is not just a case of going along with your 5 first statement, is it? It is you passing up the 6 opportunity to have a number of innocent people released 7 from prison, on your case. 8 A. I never had any -- I can understand what you are saying. 9 I have never had any legal advice. I never knew I could 10 do that. As far as I was concerned, I had some 11 people -- told lies and there is nothing I could do 12 about it. 13 Q. But you are obviously telling us you know the difference 14 between truth and lies. That's fair, isn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You know right from wrong, you are telling us? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So you knew it was wrong to maintain a lie that kept 19 people in prison? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you give us any help at all, if your statement was 22 full of lies, why you didn't tell the truth in October? 23 A. I ask myself that question all the time. I have to live 24 with that. I have no answer for that. 25 Q. But you did make a decision, didn't you, that you 51 1 weren't going to give evidence? 2 A. Yes, because it would be all lies. 3 Q. Well, if that's so, if you made a decision not to give 4 evidence because it was all lies, why did you tell the 5 Director of Public Prosecutions and prosecuting counsel 6 that you weren't going to give evidence because you 7 loved Allister? 8 A. Because I did love Allister as well. 9 Q. But what was the harm at that stage in saying, "I am not 10 going to give evidence. That statement is untrue. Let 11 them go"? 12 A. I didn't know I could do that. 13 Q. But you did know you could refuse to give evidence. Is 14 that right? 15 A. They could force me to give evidence. 16 Q. You say you hadn't had legal advice. How about advice 17 from paramilitaries? 18 A. I didn't have any advice from paramilitaries. 19 Q. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx? You had a chat with him, didn't you? 20 A. I don't recall it. 21 Q. Really? You know who xxxxxxxxxxx was, don't you? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. You know you talked to him, didn't you? 24 A. No, I don't remember talking to him. 25 Q. No? No advice from anybody about what you were going to 52 1 say to the DPP or the police. Is that right? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is that what you are telling us? 4 A. That's what I am telling you, yes. 5 Q. What did you expect to happen at the end of this 6 meeting? 7 A. That it would all go away. 8 Q. So why not tell the truth then? 9 A. Again, I just didn't. 10 Q. Both these gentlemen, Mr Davison and Mr Kerr, who is the 11 chief prosecutor, have said they took the view, when you 12 were telling them what you had seen, you were being 13 truthful. They both have that completely wrong, have 14 they? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So, you, a gullible young girl who had been bullied into 17 making a false statements, were able to persuade these 18 two seasoned prosecutors and get it wrong. Is that 19 right? 20 A. I just went -- I acted and said the things that 21 corresponded with my last statement. 22 Q. Finally, can we have a look at page [00270]? I think 23 you have seen this recently, haven't you? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. It's an attendance note, written by the coroner, of 53 1 a conversation you had with him in November 1999? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. If we just pick up the second line on the right-hand 4 side: 5 "She said that she knew I was planning to hold 6 an inquest and was very concerned about either giving 7 evidence in person or the contents of her statement 8 being read out in court. When she spoke to me, she was 9 very tearful and I was completely satisfied that she was 10 genuine. She said that she had been threatened on 11 a number of occasions by Loyalists and, as a result, she 12 had to leave Portadown. She now has a house in Belfast 13 and a new career in the Civil Service. She rarely 14 returns to Portadown, although her mother still lives 15 there. She told me that even reading out her statement 16 in court with her being referred to by a code letter 17 would identify her. If that happened, she would have to 18 leave her present address and possibly her present 19 employment. Those who threatened her were known to her. 20 She has no doubts at all that if she were involved in 21 the inquest in any way she would be in real danger from 22 Loyalist paramilitaries." 23 Now why didn't you just say, "My statement was 24 false"? 25 A. I didn't know I could. 54 1 Q. The prosecution had gone away, hadn't it? That had been 2 dropped as a result of you refusing to give evidence. 3 You knew that? 4 A. I couldn't give evidence and I couldn't have my 5 statement read out, because it was lies, and I knew what 6 I had said was wrong. 7 Q. Was it true when you told the coroner that you thought 8 you would be in real danger from Loyalist 9 paramilitaries? 10 A. Yes, because it was a false statement. 11 Q. So surely the way out of that is to tell the coroner it 12 was a false statement? 13 A. I didn't know I could do that. 14 Q. Did you tell the Loyalist paramilitaries it was a false 15 statement? 16 A. I had no contact with them. 17 Q. Did you tell anybody it was a false statement? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So all these people who were threatening you, abusing 20 you, did you tell any of them that it was a false 21 statement? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So is the first time you told anybody it was a false 24 statement when you told Allister about it then? 25 A. I think I went to the solicitors and told the solicitor 55 1 that it was false. 2 Q. It didn't occur to you, when people were threatening you 3 and abusing you, that actually that police statement was 4 bullied out of you and it wasn't true? 5 A. No, I never said anything. 6 Q. That's the sort of thing that would have got you a lot 7 of sympathy in the community, wouldn't it? 8 A. It really wasn't a community because I had did wrong and 9 told lies. So nobody wanted to know me. I didn't know 10 what to do. 11 MR UNDERWOOD: I have no further questions. Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about two things, 13 please? How did you get on with your mother? 14 A. Not very well. My mum was abusive to me. She was 15 vindictive. She was nasty, although there is times that 16 I got on well with her, but it's not a good 17 relationship. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: So why did you tell her all the things that 19 you did tell her? 20 A. I don't know. It was just talk. At that stage, we 21 probably got on better whenever, you know, I was talking 22 to her. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: At the interview when you say you made this 24 false statement, how did the policewoman behave towards 25 you? 56 1 A. When was this? Sorry. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: When you made the statement that you say 3 contained lies. 4 A. Yes, yes. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: You know the occasion? 6 A. Yes. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: How did the policewoman behave towards you? 8 A. To be very honest with you, I -- you say that there is 9 a policewoman and a man. I just thought they were men. 10 I don't recall a woman. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Perhaps it is time for our break 12 now. 13 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps we could use that time for a little 14 purpose, which is that I wonder if you could be kind 15 enough to sign an authority for us to get your medical 16 records relating to that conversation that you say was 17 inaccurately recorded from the psychiatrist. Would you 18 do that while we have a break? 19 A. I will consult with my counsel. 20 Q. Is there any reason why you wouldn't do it? 21 A. I'd just like to be clear what I'm doing. 22 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ten minutes. 24 (11.55 am) 25 (A short break) 57 1 (12.05 pm) 2 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Hanvey, I know you have had a discussion 3 with your counsel about the document. Thank you for 4 that. I now wonder whether other people may have some 5 questions for you. 6 MR WOLFE: No questions, sir. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Adair? 8 Questions from MR ADAIR 9 MR ADAIR: Can you see me, Mrs Hanvey, now? 10 A. I can, yes. 11 Q. My name is Adair. I appear, so you understand this -- 12 because for reasons I have been told I should state this 13 for the record -- for, amongst others, two police 14 officers who took the statement from you. Do you 15 understand? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I am not going to be very long with you, Mrs Hanvey. 18 There are just a few things I want to ask you about and 19 suggest to you. 20 Now, at the start of your evidence you told us that, 21 before you made the witness statement to the police, 22 there had been talk in the town about the incident. Is 23 that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. As I understand it -- and correct me if I am wrong -- 58 1 part of the reason that you agreed with the suggestion 2 of those that were involved in the murder was because of 3 what you had heard in the town. Am I right on that? 4 A. The suggestion from the police and what I had heard in 5 the town, yes. 6 Q. Now, had you heard in the town -- and we will come to 7 who it was you heard that from -- the names of those 8 involved in the murder of Robert Hamill? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did those names include the names that you mentioned in 11 your statement? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who told you that Dean Forbes was involved in the 14 murder? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 Q. Well, think back. Somebody told you who was involved in 17 a murder, Mrs Hanvey. It is not something you hear 18 every day, is it? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Who told you that Dean Forbes was involved in this 21 murder? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 Q. Why have you no idea? 24 A. Because I can't remember. 25 Q. Why is it you can't remember? 59 1 A. Because it's nearly 12 years ago. 2 Q. So you can't remember who told you that Dean Forbes was 3 one of the murderers? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Was it a member of your family? 6 A. A member of my family? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Was it a friend? 10 A. I have no idea who it was. 11 Q. Well, can you remember where you were told that 12 Dean Forbes was involved in this murder? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who told you that Allister Hanvey was involved in the 15 murder? 16 A. I made that up. 17 Q. So when you put in Hanvey's name amongst those involved 18 in the kicking, is that something then that wasn't 19 suggested to you, it is something you made up? Is that 20 what you are saying? 21 A. Yes. It would be -- it was about town too, but I -- 22 I didn't see him -- I didn't see anybody kick or punch 23 anybody. 24 Q. When you say "it was about town", what you are saying to 25 us, I assume, is that somebody told you that 60 1 Allister Hanvey was involved in the murder. 2 Who was that? 3 A. It was me. 4 Q. So were you putting it about the town that 5 Allister Hanvey was involved in the murder? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Before you made your police statement? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Well, you have just told us that is what you were doing. 10 Let me ask the question again: were you putting it 11 about Portadown that Allister Hanvey was involved in 12 this murder before you made your police statement? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who did you tell? 15 A. My mum, my auntie. 16 Q. Anybody else? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Why were you doing that? 19 A. Because I was very vindictive and a bitch. 20 Q. So because you are vindictive and a bitch, you were 21 putting it about Portadown that Allister Hanvey was 22 involved in a murder. Is that right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. So when it appears in your police statement that he was 25 one of the persons involved in the kicking of these 61 1 gentlemen on the road, that comes from you, does it, 2 because you are vindictive and a bitch? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Who told you that Stacey Bridgett was involved in this 5 murder? 6 A. It was just hearsay. 7 Q. Who told you? 8 A. I don't -- can't remember. 9 Q. What did they say he did, for example? 10 A. I can't remember. That he was involved in the fight. 11 Q. Who told you that "Muck" was involved in the murder? 12 A. Again, it was hearsay, and the police suggested those 13 names as well. 14 Q. Who told you that Rory Robinson was involved in the 15 murder? 16 A. Again, the same. 17 Q. Who? 18 A. Hearsay and the police. 19 Q. I take it by "hearsay" you mean that somebody told you. 20 Is that what you mean by "hearsay", or what exactly do 21 you mean by "hearsay"? That somebody told you that 22 somebody else had told them? What exactly do you mean 23 when you say "hearsay"? 24 A. Hearsay is like Chinese whispers. Somebody told 25 somebody, somebody told somebody else, and the story 62 1 goes on. 2 Q. Can you remember who told you the Chinese whispers -- 3 A. No. 4 Q. -- in relation to any of these men? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do we take it then that as far as Forbes, Bridgett, 7 "Muck" and Robinson are concerned, the Chinese whispers 8 in the town were that they were involved in the murder. 9 Is that right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. But it was you that was spreading the Chinese whispers 12 in relation to Hanvey? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were there any other Chinese whispers about Hanvey apart 15 from you? 16 A. I was the one that told my mum and told my auntie. 17 Q. Well, apart from that, did you hear from anybody else 18 that Hanvey was involved in the murder? 19 A. I'm not too sure. I can't remember. 20 Q. You can't remember whether you heard that your on/off 21 boyfriend had been involved in a murder? 22 A. That's right. I can't remember. 23 Q. Is that the truth? 24 A. It's the truth. 25 Q. You can't remember whether you heard round Portadown 63 1 before you made this statement that Hanvey was involved 2 in this murder? Is that what you are telling us? 3 A. I told my mum and I told my auntie that he was involved, 4 being vindictive. 5 Q. What made you so vindictive and such a bitch that you 6 decided to spread a rumour that your on/off boyfriend 7 was involved in a murder? What was it that made you 8 that decision? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. I mean, are you saying that that's the way you were, 11 vindictive and so on, at this point in your life? You 12 were a vindictive sort of person? 13 A. At that time of my life, I was under a lot of stress 14 with my mum taking ill. I used drugs as well, which is 15 never -- I have never told anybody. I was in a bad 16 stage in my life and I just did it. I have no reason 17 for it. I have to live with that every day, what I have 18 said. 19 Q. So although nothing had happened between you that night, 20 the night that you saw this incident, nothing to spark 21 any rage against Hanvey, you decided just out of 22 vindictiveness to name him as one of the murderers. Is 23 that what you are saying? 24 A. Allister and I had a very stormy relationship. I have 25 no other reason. I just did it. I was wrong. 64 1 Q. Okay. I want to just take you briefly, Mrs Hanvey, to 2 the making of the witness statement. Do you have the 3 witness statement in front of you? 4 A. Yes. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Does it need to be called up on the screen? 6 A. Do you have a number? 7 MR ADAIR: [17327]. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, before we -- and Mr Underwood has dealt with this 10 in some detail with you, so I am not going to repeat, 11 I hope, what he said. Just so the Panel can get 12 a picture in their mind of the room in which you made 13 this statement, do you not, in fact, when you look back, 14 now recollect that there was a woman police officer and 15 a male police officer and your auntie present in this 16 room when you made this statement? 17 A. I remember there was police. There was police persons. 18 I can't say that there was only two. I can remember the 19 room being dark, a very, very large table. I was 20 sitting on one side. The police were at the other. 21 A lot of people walked in and out. It was very hostile. 22 I was very upset. Yes, they banged the table at me and 23 they said they would put me in jail. 24 Q. Okay. Now, can you remember the woman police officer 25 being there or not? 65 1 A. No. 2 Q. Would you accept -- we have heard she was there. 3 A. Yes, that's okay. 4 Q. I don't think anybody is disputing that. 5 A. That's fine. 6 Q. Do you accept there was a woman police officer there? 7 A. Yes, yes. 8 Q. Your auntie was there throughout the thing. Is that 9 right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Now, when you went in, obviously you had some discussion 12 before this written statement started to be taken down. 13 Isn't that right? 14 A. Pardon? 15 Q. Did you have some discussion with the police before they 16 started to write down in written form this statement? 17 A. I can't remember. 18 Q. Were they banging the table from the start? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did the woman police officer bang the table? 21 A. It was a guy. 22 Q. It was the guy? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. The policeman? 25 A. Yes. 66 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Was it one or more than one person banging 2 the table? 3 A. I -- there was one, one person, a man. 4 MR ADAIR: Banging the table? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. The other police officer was there at this time. Is 7 that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And your auntie was there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, in relation to the words that were used about 12 breaking down your mother's door -- 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. -- putting you in jail and so on -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- was that the woman police officer or the man police 17 officer? 18 A. It was a man. 19 Q. So the man did all the verbal threats, if we call them 20 that way, and the banging of the table? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And meanwhile, the lady police officer and your auntie 23 stood and watched it or sat and watched it -- is that 24 right -- 25 A. My auntie was sitting -- 67 1 Q. -- without saying a word? Sorry. I interrupted you. 2 Go on. 3 A. I was just saying my auntie was beside me. There was 4 police officers in front of me. Okay? One was a girl. 5 Yes, they sat. They did nothing. 6 Q. So in the midst of this banging and threats, your 7 auntie, I take it, doesn't raise the slightest objection 8 to what's happening. Is that right? 9 A. That's right. 10 Q. Neither does the lady police officer raise the slightest 11 objection to what's happening? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. Isn't this just absolute nonsense, Mrs Hanvey? 14 A. No. You are wrong. You are wrong. 15 Q. Were you in tears? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Were you crying? 18 A. That's in tears, yes. 19 Q. Were the tears flowing down your cheeks? Yes or no? 20 A. Tears normally do. 21 Q. Were you shaking? 22 A. Possibly. 23 Q. Were you terrified? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And your auntie and this lady police officer sat and 68 1 watched this, a 17-year-old girl in tears, shaking, 2 terrified, and they sat and watched it and didn't say 3 a word? 4 A. If I could just say there that the police -- it had 5 turned from a sectarian attack to a sectarian murder, 6 and the police wanted to get people in jail for this, 7 and I was the victim -- I was the one who -- I took 8 it -- I was the gullible one. I was the one who agreed 9 to the suggested names. 10 So you have no idea how it felt in that police 11 station in that room. You have no idea. It was awful, 12 horrendous. 13 Q. Yes. So when you went home, were you still a mess, if 14 I can describe it that way? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you tell your mum, "Look at me. Look at the state 17 of me. I'm a mess"? 18 A. She would have seen that. 19 Q. She would have seen it? 20 A. And I have been a mess from then, from then. 21 Q. So here you are, and I take it the banging on the 22 table and the threats came before you agreed to the 23 names? 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 Q. So the banging and the threats are made to you. You 69 1 then agree with these four names. You put Hanvey in 2 yourself just because of your vindictiveness. Is that 3 right? 4 A. I agree -- what it is, I agreed to the statement saying 5 I saw these people do it. 6 Q. Presumably, throughout the rest of the interview you are 7 still a terrified, shaking, tearful girl. Is that the 8 picture you want us to imagine? 9 A. That's the right information, yes. 10 Q. But still, at the end of the statement you go on to make 11 up stuff yourself about Allister Hanvey. Go to 12 page [17329]. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. This is you sitting, terrified, crying, shaking, but you 15 still have the vindictiveness to make up that Allister 16 said he jumped on his head and kicked his head and that 17 he didn't have a fractured skull anymore. 18 So you, in this crumbling position, have still 19 enough wit about you that you put in this further lie 20 about Allister. Is that right? Is that right? 21 A. What I remember is -- yes, yes, I was. 22 Q. So even though the police have reduced you to the state 23 you tell us you were in -- 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. -- your mind is still sharp enough that you want to put 70 1 in at the end of this statement some further information 2 to further nail down Allister Hanvey? 3 Tell us about that thought process. 4 A. I was being vindictive. 5 Q. But at this stage, you are a tearful, shaking, crying, 6 17-year-old girl, who had just agreed to things the 7 police had put to you because they are banging the 8 table and threatening you? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Now, where did you get the strength to then go on and 11 make up what you say are further lies about Hanvey? You 12 told us you made it up. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So you were able to do that, even though you are in this 15 state? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. Do even you, Mrs Hanvey, not see the nonsense in this? 18 Sitting there, just sitting there, do you not even see 19 the nonsense you are talking? 20 A. No. It's not nonsense. 21 Q. How many names did the police put to you as to who were 22 involved in the killing, the murder, of Robert Hamill? 23 A. The names that's in the -- in this -- in the statement. 24 Q. So they didn't suggest any other names that you 25 disagreed with? 71 1 A. I'm not too sure. 2 Q. So they gave you all those names and you simply agreed 3 that that's what they had done. Is that right? 4 A. They suggested names. Also, my auntie discussed things 5 that went on from what she had heard and that's the way 6 it is. That's it. 7 Q. Okay. If you go to page -- again, I will not be long 8 with this, Mrs Hanvey -- [17328] in your statement. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. You have told us that essentially the first page in this 11 statement is true. Is that right? 12 A. The first statement -- the first page? 13 Q. The first page about your movements that night and so 14 on. 15 A. Yes, yes. 16 Q. I take it then the police didn't suggest that to you? 17 That's something you volunteered? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Then if you go up to the top of the second page, 20 [17383], you met up with Stephen Bloomer at 21 Poundstretcher and just sat down beside him. 22 Now, did you tell the police that or did the police 23 suggest that? 24 A. That's what Stephen Bloomer had in his statement. 25 Q. Did you tell the police that? 72 1 A. They told me that. 2 Q. Did you disagree with them? 3 A. I says, "Well, I must have been". 4 Q. So you were saying, "Yes, that's right. It must be"? 5 A. "It must be". The police said I did see it. I said 6 "I didn't". They said, "We have witnesses to say you 7 seen it". 8 Q. Okay: 9 "I saw two people lying on the street." 10 Now, is that true? Leaving aside the statement, did 11 you see two people lying in the street? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you tell the police that? 14 A. That I saw two people lying on the ground? Yes. 15 Q. "One was near the centre of the road and the other was 16 near the footpath close to Eastwoods." 17 Now, is that true? Did you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you tell the police that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. "The person I saw in the middle of the road I thought 22 was dead, as he was not moving." 23 Now, is that true? Did you see that? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. Did you tell the police that? 73 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. They were writing it down as you told them? 3 A. I am not too sure. 4 Q. Right: 5 "It was at this time I saw a number of persons 6 gathered around the person lying in the centre of the 7 road." 8 Now, is that true? Did you see that? 9 A. I seen -- what I did see, which I could still recollect, 10 is two bodies on the ground motionless, a crowd of 11 people about, but there was nobody kicking or punching 12 them at this stage. 13 Q. These words appear in your statement, Mrs Hanvey. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. "It was at this time I saw a number of persons gathered 16 around the person lying in the centre of the road." 17 Does that describe in one way or the other, in fact, 18 what you saw? 19 A. What I saw -- no, that's wrong. What I saw was two 20 bodies on the ground, not moving, and a crowd of people 21 around, just around. 22 Q. Well, if we leave out the word "gathered" then, 23 a number of persons around the person lying in the 24 centre of the road, it is pretty accurate to what you 25 saw? 74 1 A. Around the area. 2 Q. Right. So that's true. Is that something you would 3 have told the police? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Right: 6 "These persons were kicking the person on the ground 7 around the head and body." 8 Now, is that true? Did you see that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Just tell us how that came then to physically be written 11 down. Did the police say to you, "Well, did you see 12 people kicking him on the ground?" and did you say, 13 "No", and did they say, "We will beat in your mother's 14 door. You did", and then did you eventually agree? 15 How did those words get to be there? 16 A. The police said that they knew I was there and that 17 I seen it and they had a witness to say I had seen it. 18 Q. Did you tell you the name of the witness? 19 A. I'm not -- no. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. No. They said -- I says, "I didn't see it". It was 22 just -- it went on from there. It doesn't make sense. 23 You see, whenever I say, which is the truth, that the 24 two bodies was on the ground and lying motionless, 25 obviously the fight had happened previous to that, you 75 1 know. People were -- there was nobody kicking and 2 punching them. They were just lying on the ground. 3 Q. Did you make it clear in the presence of your auntie and 4 the woman police officer that you had seen nothing? 5 A. I tried. 6 Q. But I take it that what you say is, at this stage, the 7 banging and the threats came around. Is that what you 8 are saying? 9 A. It came around that they says, "You did see it. We know 10 you seen it", that type of thing. 11 Q. Did they say to you, "Well, did you see these people 12 kicking the person on the ground?" and did you just say, 13 "Yes", or did they just make this up and put it in? 14 I am trying to figure out -- 15 A. Pretty much. No, no, pretty much that's what happened. 16 Q. What? 17 A. They suggested to me, "You seen these people, A, B, C, 18 D, and E kicking this person on the ground". 19 Q. And you said, "Yes"? 20 A. I says "No", and they goes, "We know you did. We know 21 you did". I said, "No, I didn't". They said, "You know 22 you did", and then that's when the banging of the 23 tables -- you know, "If you don't say -- you know, if 24 you don't do this, we will put you in jail. We will put 25 you in jail for this". 76 1 Q. So you agreed just because of the banging and the 2 threats? 3 A. The pressure, yes. 4 Q. Did you know Dean Forbes? 5 A. From about town. 6 Q. What was he doing that night, incidentally? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. Did you not see him at the scene? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 Q. Did you not see Dean Forbes amongst the crowd that were 11 milling around in Portadown the night that Robert Hamill 12 was murdered? Did you see him or not? 13 A. I can't remember. 14 Q. Yes, you can, Mrs Hanvey. 15 A. No, I can't. 16 Q. So you say then, if that's right, you were prepared to 17 agree that Dean Forbes was involved in kicking somebody 18 on the ground, even though you had not even seen him 19 there? Is that what you are saying? 20 A. What I am saying is, two weeks after the incident 21 happened, there was talk. People suggested -- people 22 said things about who was involved that was about the 23 town and the names were suggested. I don't know. 24 I didn't see Dean Forbes. 25 Q. Allister Hanvey, did you see Allister Hanvey in the 77 1 crowd milling around the middle of Thomas Street on the 2 night that Robert Hamill was murdered? 3 A. Allister, he wasn't with me that night. 4 Q. It is a simple question, Mrs Hanvey. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you see Allister Hanvey -- 7 A. No. 8 Q. -- in the crowd in Portadown, Thomas Street, the night 9 that Robert Hamill was murdered? Yes or no? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Is that the truth? 12 A. That's the truth. 13 Q. Stacey Bridgett, did you see Stacey Bridgett in the 14 crowd in Thomas Street the night Mr Hamill was murdered? 15 A. I can't remember. 16 Q. Think back. 17 A. Think back. I can't remember. This is like -- sorry, 18 this is 11, 12 years ago. I cannot remember who I seen. 19 There was a lot of people there. I know who I was with. 20 Q. Rory Robinson, did you see Rory Robinson in the crowd in 21 Thomas Street on the night that Robert Hamill was 22 murdered? 23 A. No, I can't remember. 24 Q. So you saw -- you know all these people? 25 A. Yes. 78 1 Q. But -- and we know they were there. Do you understand 2 me? 3 A. Yes, fully. 4 Q. But you don't see any of them? 5 A. I can't remember seeing them. 6 Q. No, it is not a matter of "can't remember", Mrs Hanvey. 7 If you saw any of those people there, you would 8 remember. 9 Now, are you telling this Inquiry that you cannot 10 remember whether any of the people that you named in 11 your statement as being the murderers were, in fact, 12 there at all? Is that what you are saying is the truth? 13 A. What I am saying is the truth is that I cannot remember 14 now, thinking back, of who I seen that night. I know 15 who I was with. These people weren't with me. 16 Q. Well, let's just deal with one then, Allister Hanvey. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. In no circumstances would you forget whether you had 19 seen Mr Hanvey there that night. 20 Did you see Mr Hanvey there that night? 21 A. No. 22 Q. How did you miss him, do you think? 23 A. How did I miss him? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I don't know what you are saying. I don't understand. 79 1 Q. Well, we know he was right in the middle of the crowd. 2 He was a prominent figure in the crowd. We have heard 3 evidence about him being there and about people seeing 4 him and so on. You are his on/off girlfriend. How did 5 you miss seeing him? 6 A. Allister wasn't with me that night. 7 Q. Did you ever ask him was he there? A simple question -- 8 A. We never discussed it. 9 Q. A simple question: did you ever ask him was he there, 10 was he involved? Simple question, Mrs Hanvey. Why 11 won't you answer it? 12 A. I did ask him. 13 Q. What did he say? 14 A. He said that he wasn't involved in the fight. 15 Q. When did you ask him? 16 A. I can't remember. 17 Q. What was the problem answering the question straightaway 18 if you asked him? 19 A. Because this is hard. I implicated Allister in this. 20 It's very hard to deal with. 21 Q. Mrs Hanvey, you have also been taken through by 22 Mr Underwood what you did after you made the witness 23 statement in terms of telling people. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. We now know from your evidence today that you were 80 1 a mess, crying, shaking and so on? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. We know you didn't tell your mother, your stepfather, 4 anybody else. Isn't that right? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. We know that Andrea must be keeping this from us, hiding 7 it from us for some reason. Isn't that right? She says 8 that didn't happen. Are you aware of that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you tell any friend what had happened to you either 11 when you went back to work or went to school or whatever 12 you were at? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you tell a minister? 15 A. No. 16 Q. We know when you went up to see Mr Kerr, QC, and 17 Mr Davison you didn't tell them. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Even after the charges were dropped against Hanvey and 20 others, did you tell anybody? 21 A. After the charges were dropped? 22 Q. Yes. After you -- 23 A. After I retracted my statement? 24 Q. After the charges were dropped against Hanvey and the 25 others, who did you first tell about the police 81 1 treatment? 2 A. My solicitor. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. Possibly -- I am not too sure -- 2000. 5 Q. So you told nobody -- 6 A. I am not too sure. 7 Q. -- from 1997 up until 2000? 8 A. Yes. I lived with that for those amount of years. 9 That's why I have bad mental health. 10 Q. I take it you had no vindictiveness against 11 Rory Robinson, Stacey Bridgett, Dean Forbes, "Muck"? 12 You had nothing against them. Is that right? 13 A. That's right. I didn't even know "Muck". 14 Q. Are you saying that, even as a 17-year-old -- you 15 weren't a child; you were 17 years of age -- are you 16 saying that you were content in letting them stay in 17 prison on remand knowing that you had made this false 18 statement about people that you had no vindictiveness 19 against? 20 A. In no way was I content. I did not know what to do. 21 I didn't know I could retract it. I didn't know I could 22 tell the truth. I -- because I just didn't. I didn't. 23 Q. Well, that's just absolute nonsense, Mrs Hanvey. Even 24 a 17-year-old realises they can say to anybody, "Look, 25 that statement I made is totally untrue. It is 82 1 nonsense. I was forced into making it". You know that, 2 don't you? 3 A. But I never did. 4 Q. No. 5 A. Never did. 6 Q. I just formally suggest to you -- well, I will just say 7 to you, Mrs Hanvey, that the evidence we have heard from 8 the two police officers, whom the Panel have seen and 9 heard, was that you were treated as a vulnerable young 10 girl. There was no banging of the table. There were no 11 threats being issued against you. Do you understand? 12 That's the evidence we have heard. 13 A. Uh-huh. I can understand, but they are not going to 14 turn round and tell you what happened in that room, tell 15 the truth. 16 Q. Do you not accept that thereafter the lady police 17 officer and the man police officer were out at your 18 house -- 19 A. I can't remember. 20 Q. -- finding out about your welfare, trying to get you 21 a job and so on? 22 A. No, I can't remember. 23 Q. Are you saying you don't even remember that? 24 A. No. 25 MR ADAIR: Okay. 83 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just help us about this, please, 2 Mrs Hanvey? If a man is browbeaten into making 3 a confession of a crime he has not committed, and he 4 signs it, do you see the position then is that he has to 5 explain that away? Do you follow that? He wants to 6 avoid being convicted. Do you follow? 7 A. No. Say it again, please. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Suppose a man is browbeaten into making 9 a confession -- 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: -- that he has committed a crime that he has 12 not committed and he signs it. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you follow that, once he has signed it, he 15 really has to explain it away, has he not, if he wants 16 to avoid being convicted? 17 A. Yes. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, if a witness is browbeaten into making 19 a false statement, you understand that the witness has 20 then got to give evidence? 21 A. Yes. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: And be cross-examined? 23 A. Yes. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you thought about this: how does it help 25 the police to browbeat a witness into making a false 84 1 statement that they know to be false? 2 A. How does it help the police? 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Pardon? 4 A. It helps -- oh ... 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, how does it help the police? 6 A. Because they have somebody convicted for the murder. 7 They are seen to be doing their job. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: That depends, does it not, on whether the 9 witness they have browbeaten tells the story in the 10 witness box and is believed. Do you follow? 11 A. Yes. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Doesn't it strike you as being rather 13 difficult to use a witness like that? 14 A. A witness who won't testify? 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, a witness who has simply been 16 browbeaten into giving a lying story. 17 A. Yes. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: How good a witness is he going to be? 19 A. Not good. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Thank you. 21 A. That's why -- yes. That's why I'm here. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr McKenna? 23 MR McGRORY: I am in your hands because of the time, sir. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: We will go on until 1.15 because of the 25 couple of breaks we have had this morning. 85 1 Questions from MR McGRORY 2 MR McGRORY: My name is McGrory. Can you see me? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I represent the family of the young man who was beaten 5 to death on the night of 27th April 1997. 6 Do you remember the night? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. His mother is here in this room, as are a number of 9 other members of his family, Mrs Hanvey. 10 A. I'm sure. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Unfortunately, you are not in the room. You are giving 12 evidence in a different room, so you can't see them, 13 sure you can't? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You can't look them in the eye and say what you are 16 saying right now. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Is that why you wanted a video link? 19 A. No. I wanted a video link because one of the sisters of 20 the Hamills attacked me outside the Golden Bridge 21 restaurant and I didn't want to have to come to see her 22 or any of the family. 23 Q. If that is true -- and I don't think we want to get into 24 that -- 25 A. Uh-huh. 86 1 Q. -- you know what they look like and they know what you 2 look like? 3 A. Of course. 4 Q. So it doesn't make any difference whether you are in the 5 room or not really, sure it doesn't, in terms of that 6 matter? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You see, you are telling a huge big lie right now, I am 9 suggesting to you, Mrs Hanvey. 10 A. I am not telling lies. 11 Q. Do you find it difficult telling lies? 12 A. I have lied in the past. 13 Q. Oh, yes, but do you find it difficult? 14 A. It depends. 15 Q. Do you find it difficult looking someone in the eye and 16 telling them a lie? 17 A. I find it more difficult. 18 Q. And, of course, the bigger the lie, the more difficult 19 it is. Isn't that right? 20 A. That would be right. 21 Q. When you sat across the table from Constable McAteer and 22 a certain very senior policewoman, you looked them in 23 the eye when you spoke to them, did you not? 24 A. No. 25 Q. What you told them, I am suggesting to you, was the 87 1 truth -- 2 A. It wasn't the truth. 3 Q. -- back on 10th May 1997, because if we accept what you 4 tell us today, Mrs Hanvey, then, when you told the 5 police that Allister Hanvey, amongst others, jumped all 6 over Robert Hamill and kicked him, that was a lie you 7 told the police. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were telling them a lie then about someone close to 10 you, whom you knew. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Not a stranger. He wasn't a stranger, sure he wasn't? 13 A. Allister? No. 14 Q. But if that was a lie, that lie had consequences, very 15 serious consequences. Do you understand that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Those consequences were that he would be arrested for 18 murder? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. The consequences for someone arrested and convicted of 21 murder are life imprisonment. You were aware of that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now you come here today and you tell us you were 24 vindictive and you were a bitch and that's why you did 25 that. 88 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. Are you seriously saying you were so vindictive, so 3 vindictive towards this boy, who was your boyfriend only 4 a short time beforehand, that you would put him away to 5 jail for life if that wasn't true? 6 A. I knew -- I knew that would happen. 7 Q. So you are such a bad person that you would do that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You see, I don't accept that, Mrs Hanvey. I don't think 10 you are such a bad person that you went to the police on 11 10th May 1997 and told that lie. You told the truth 12 then, didn't you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You are not the sort of a person who just could go to 15 the police and tell them somebody was a murderer when 16 they weren't? 17 A. That's what I told the police. I told the police that 18 I seen people kicking and punching Mr Hamill, and 19 I didn't. 20 Q. So are you telling us that you are such an evil person 21 that you went to the police on 10th May and you gave 22 a detailed account of Allister Hanvey murdering someone 23 when that wasn't true? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You see -- why did you do that to Allister? 89 1 A. I was being vindictive. 2 Q. What did he do to you that would cause you to go to the 3 police and tell them he was a murderer? 4 A. I have no explanation for it. 5 Q. What sort of a fall-out had you, or what sort of a row 6 had you, that influenced you to make up such a story? 7 A. It just came out. I just said it. I never thought of 8 the implications at the time. I just said it. 9 Q. You see, that would make him a very, very unlucky young 10 man, wouldn't it, Mrs Hanvey -- 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. -- that he got himself tied up with a young woman who 13 would do such a thing to him? 14 A. Of course. 15 Q. You see, you weren't the only one who mentioned him, of 16 course. Do you know Timothy Jameson? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You see, Timothy Jameson also described Allister 19 behaving in a similar way that night. You are aware of 20 that, aren't you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What Timothy said was: 23 "I looked around and I saw Allister Hanvey kick and 24 punch this fellow who was lying on the ground." 25 That's what Timothy Jameson said Allister did. Do 90 1 you know that? 2 A. Yes, I do know that. I also know that Timothy was in 3 another room beside me in the police station on 4 10th May. He was in one room and I was in the other 5 room and the police were going back and forth into each 6 room. 7 Q. So he was really doubly unlucky, Allister, wasn't he, 8 then, that not only did he get himself tied up with you, 9 who would tell such a vindictive lie about him, but that 10 Timothy Jameson did the same? That was very unlucky, 11 wasn't it? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Why would Timothy do it? 14 A. Again, the police? 15 Q. Why would Timothy lie about Allister? 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. No. 18 Tell me this: did you ever want to join the navy? 19 A. My brother is in the navy. I can remember applying for 20 the army, but not the navy. 21 Q. Well, how did you know him -- is that how you know that 22 to have the condition of asthma would mean it would be 23 difficult to get into the navy. 24 A. I know that it is difficult to get into the army, 25 because I have applied. I had applied when I was 91 1 younger. 2 Q. Well, when Mr Underwood mentioned to you earlier that 3 the police had told the Inquiry that they tried to get 4 you into the navy, you denied that? 5 A. I can't remember that. 6 Q. No memory of it whatsoever? 7 A. No memory of it whatsoever. 8 Q. No memory of sitting an exam to get into the navy? 9 A. That was for the army. 10 Q. Are you sure it wasn't the navy? 11 A. It was for the army. It was in Portadown. 12 Q. Well, when was that? 13 A. A long, long time ago. I don't know. 14 Q. Was it after this incident? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Well, try and help us. 17 A. I know. I'm trying -- 18 Q. This incident clearly is something which stands out in 19 your mind and a turning point in your life. Isn't that 20 right? 21 A. It could have been after that, after the incident. 22 Q. How long after? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Was it not with the help of the police that you made 25 an application? 92 1 A. For the army? 2 Q. According to them, the navy, but maybe it was the army? 3 A. I am unsure. I don't know. I don't recall the police 4 helping me get a new job or the police helping me to do 5 that navy thing. No, I don't remember that at all. 6 Q. But you remember sitting the exam for the army? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. But you didn't get it, did you? 9 A. I did. I passed the exam. 10 Q. Why didn't you join the army then? 11 A. Because I have asthma and my fitness levels weren't 12 good, if I can remember right. 13 Q. So you were refused entry to the army because of your 14 asthma? 15 A. I'm not too sure. I can't really -- it's a long time 16 ago. 17 Q. Is it not the truth that senior police helped you in 18 your application for the armed forces, arranged for you 19 to sit the exam? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Because at that time -- 22 A. I don't really -- 23 Q. -- you were still telling them you were going to give 24 evidence. Isn't that right? 25 A. I made the statement, but I could never go through with 93 1 giving evidence, because it was false. 2 Q. When, Mrs Hanvey, exactly did you seek legal advice 3 about how to deal with your situation? 4 A. I think it was 2000. 5 Q. Yes. Wasn't that in the context of your belief that you 6 might be called to give evidence at the inquest into 7 Robert Hamill? 8 A. I think whenever I moved back up to Portadown, I seek -- 9 I seeked advice from a solicitor, which is in 2000, 10 I think. 11 Q. Who was that? 12 A. Who was my solicitor? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Richard Monteith. 15 Q. Were you going out with Allister Hanvey at that time? 16 A. I think I was going back out with Allister then, yes. 17 Q. Now, when you saw the DPP in October 1997, at no time 18 during that conversation, as you have been already told, 19 did you tell them that what you had said to the police 20 was untrue. 21 A. That's true. 22 Q. We have various accounts of that meeting from senior DPP 23 officials, seasoned senior counsel and policemen, all 24 who were at that meeting. At no time did you say or 25 give any hint that what you said was untrue. 94 1 A. That's true. I never. 2 Q. Then two years later, in December 1999 or November 1999, 3 you spoke to the coroner who was getting ready to have 4 an inquest then. You remember that? 5 A. What -- yes, I think so, yes. 6 Q. You told him that you were afraid to give evidence. 7 A. Yes, because it was a lie. 8 Q. No, no. No, no. They are two quite separate things, 9 Mrs Hanvey. You told the coroner, did you not, that you 10 were terrified of giving evidence? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. But at no time, I am going to suggest to you, did you 13 tell the coroner in 1999 that what you had said was 14 a lie? 15 A. That's true. I never told anybody. 16 Q. No. So it is only after you get legal advice then from 17 Mr Monteith in 2000 that you start telling people it was 18 a lie? 19 A. But it was a lie. 20 Q. But that's a separate matter again. 21 In terms of the timing of your declaration to 22 anybody that it was a lie, it was after you got legal 23 advice? 24 A. I got legal advice, yes. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Please answer the question. Was the first 95 1 time you told anyone your statement was a lie after you 2 had seen a solicitor? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 5 MR McGRORY: Were you worried about the consequences of then 6 saying that what you had said originally was a lie? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What did you think those consequences would be? 9 A. To be known as a liar and a vindictive bitch. 10 Q. Of course, you had already told a lie. Isn't that 11 right? You would already have been known as a liar and 12 a vindictive bitch if what you had said on 10th May was 13 untrue. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So what changed between then and 2000? 16 A. Admitting to myself, admitting to myself of what and who 17 I really was. 18 Q. Is it not the reality, Mrs Hanvey, that the inquest was 19 looming, as far as you knew, and you were going to have 20 to face a witness box for the first time? 21 A. I could not have faced the witness box. 22 Q. But to go through with what you said on 10th May 1997 23 had serious consequences for Mr Hanvey, had it not? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. He is the father of your children. Isn't that right? 96 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. You are separated? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Does he have the kids? 5 A. We share, share the kids, yes. 6 Q. He is a pretty important element in their lives. Isn't 7 that right? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. He's a good father, isn't he? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did he leave the kids into school today? 12 A. No. 13 Q. If you were to tell, which I say is the truth, what you 14 said on 10th May 1997, do you understand the 15 consequences for him? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. What are they? 18 A. Well, if I was to -- he would be imprisoned along with 19 other people. 20 Q. That would have a pretty devastating effect on your 21 children, wouldn't it, Mrs Hanvey? 22 A. It would, but whenever I retracted my statement, I had 23 no children. I had no children. 24 Q. But you do now? 25 A. I do now, yes. 97 1 Q. You see, when you retracted your statement, Mrs Hanvey, 2 you weren't really pinned to the colours, sure you 3 weren't? 4 A. What do you mean "pinned to the colours"? 5 Q. Nobody made you get into a witness box and speak about 6 this on oath? 7 A. But it would have. It would have happened. 8 Q. But they didn't, Mrs Hanvey. Isn't that right? 9 A. I didn't face the witness box, no. 10 Q. You have never had to say what you have said today on 11 oath before, have you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. This is the first time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If you said it today what you said on 10th May 1997, you 16 would be really stuck with it, wouldn't you? 17 A. I would be lying. 18 Q. But if you said it in a court of law, which this is not, 19 but if you said it in a court of law, which I suggest 20 you might be forced to do, if you said it today, 21 Mr Hanvey would go to prison? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Isn't telling lies today the lesser of two evils? 24 A. No. Telling lies today is the truth. Today is the 25 truth -- 98 1 Q. Is that right? 2 A. -- come out. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: 2.15 pm. 4 (1.17 pm) 5 (The luncheon adjournment) 6 (2.15 pm) 7 MR McGRORY: I have no further questions, sir. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Ms Dinsmore? 9 Questions from MS DINSMORE 10 MS DINSMORE: Good afternoon, Mrs Hanvey. My name is 11 Margaret Anne Dinsmore. I appear on behalf of both 12 Eleanor Atkinson and Robbie Atkinson. I just have a few 13 things to ask you arising out of what you have said this 14 morning. 15 Firstly, Mr -- 16 A. I can't hear you. Sorry. You are only coming now. 17 Q. Can you hear me now? Will I start all over again? 18 A. Sorry. Yes. 19 Q. Not at all. My name is Margaret Anne Dinsmore. I am 20 representing both Eleanor and Robbie Atkinson. 21 In relation to some matters that were put to you 22 this morning, I just want to clarify a couple of things 23 with you, the first being Mr Underwood referred to the 24 potential that you had purchased a silver jacket with 25 orange stripes and I understand your answer was, "Look, 99 1 I purchased a whole lot of clothes for Mr Hanvey". 2 Am I right in thinking that your evidence was that 3 you didn't recall purchasing a silver jacket? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Now, it wasn't suggested to you, but I wonder, could 6 I jolt your memory? Is there any question that you 7 might well have purchased a blue Daniel Poole jacket, 8 a Puffa? 9 A. A Puffa jacket? 10 Q. Do you think you might well have purchased that? 11 A. I had, like, a big Puffa jacket. 12 Q. Because -- 13 A. Sorry. 14 Q. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Because the 15 Inquiry have heard -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: It is not clear whether she is saying she 17 bought one or had one herself. 18 MR DINSMORE: One, we know you have a Puffa jacket. I am 19 asking you, do you think you could have bought Allister 20 a Puffa jacket? 21 A. Could have. 22 Q. You could have? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Because, you see -- if you are familiar with the shop 25 Paranoid -- 100 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- did you know a girl, Linda Wilson, who worked in it? 3 A. What was her name? 4 Q. Linda Wilson. 5 A. Yes, yes. 6 Q. You do know her? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You maybe don't know who the owner of it was, but if 9 I suggested to you it was a Julian Lyons, would that 10 ring any bells with you? 11 A. That's right, yes. 12 Q. That is right. You see, the Inquiry have evidence 13 before them from both Mr Lyons and Miss Wilson that, in 14 fact, on the Christmas of 1996, you did indeed buy the 15 Puffa jacket, the blue Daniel Poole jacket. 16 Now, does that bring back the jacket any clearer to 17 you. 18 A. It -- it was a Christmas present for Allister. He would 19 have picked it out and I would have paid it off for him. 20 Q. When you say "paid it off for him", I think they call 21 that a lay-by system, that you went in each week with 22 a sum of money. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would it have been an expensive Christmas present? It 25 has been suggested it was in the region of £150-£175. 101 1 Would that seem right to you? 2 A. Would be the price of those things, yes. 3 Q. That would have been the Christmas of 1996, the 4 Christmas before all this happened? 5 A. It's hard to remember, you know, when I bought clothes 6 for him, but that could be, yes. 7 Q. That could be the case? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then, as I said to you, I act on behalf of the 10 Atkinsons. In your statement of 10th May you outlined 11 a lot of circumstances which you have now told us today 12 that those things were lies, and that they were not 13 true. 14 Can you just confirm to me, is it true or not that 15 what you said that Allister said, that Mr Atkinson had 16 been very good to him because, on the Sunday morning 17 after the incident in the town centre, he rang him about 18 8.00 am and told him to get rid of the clothes he was 19 wearing the previous night. 20 Now, did Allister tell you that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you sure about that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where do you think that came from, that it ended up in 25 your statement? 102 1 A. Andrea McKee. 2 Q. Why do you say that? 3 A. Because she -- she was -- she was friendly with the 4 Atkinsons and as well as that she liked to put her oar 5 in and talk about everything and, you know, she was 6 a chatterbox, you know, and she was in with me whenever 7 I made my statement. 8 Q. When you say she liked to put her oar in on everything 9 and she was a chatterbox, would she have been that at 10 the gym as well? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. Do you ever recall saying the things that were in your 13 statement at the gym, or did those come from other 14 people talking at the gym? 15 A. Other people talking. 16 Q. Was there much talk? 17 A. There was a lot of talk. 18 Q. Was Andrea McKee core to that talk? 19 A. She liked to know what was going on and she was like the 20 centre, but she got information from lots of different 21 people so that she was in the middle of it as well. 22 Q. Now, in that regard -- and I don't propose to go into 23 this in any great detail -- at that time, you were only 24 17 years of age? 25 A. Yes. 103 1 Q. Is it correct to say that you really had quite unhappy 2 home circumstances between your mother and your 3 stepfather? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Isn't it correct that the McKees lived just opposite 6 you, or nearby -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- and that you did, in fact, spend a lot of time with 9 them? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In fact, you had use of a room in their house? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And they allowed you and Allister to stay over in that 14 house? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were you sort of a mixed up wee girl in some ways? 17 A. Very mixed up. 18 Q. Would you have been under the influence of Ms McKee? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you want to take a moment? Do you want to have 21 a drink of water or anything? 22 A. Sorry. 23 Q. No, I really do not want to make things difficult for 24 you, because I know I am touching on very personal 25 matters that go very deep, but was your level of 104 1 vulnerability to Andrea McKee such that you would have 2 found it very hard not to go along with her suggestions and 3 her bidding? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Could you just answer, because I am afraid the tape 6 can't see a nod? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In relation to what you told the police and other people 9 initially, when the police first came to your home with 10 your parents there on the night of the 8th -- and that's 11 what we will refer to as the questionnaire -- isn't it 12 correct to say you made no mention of Allister Hanvey or 13 anything of the things that are in your statement then? 14 A. Never mentioned them, no. 15 Q. Haven't you got another aunt by marriage called 16 xxxxxx? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You would have talked to her? 19 A. Not a whole pile, but I would have looked. 20 Q. You didn't talk a lot to her, because, in fact -- and 21 Mr Chairman, you will find it at page [14902] -- what 22 she says is you didn't tell her anything about all of 23 these things that are in your statement except there was 24 a skirmish. Would that seem right? 25 A. Yes. 105 1 Q. So is it correct to say then that all the details in 2 this statement then emerged subsequent to the talking 3 and subsequent to Andrea McKee picking you up at 4 11 o'clock at night at the Chinese and taking you to the 5 police station? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, in relation to Mr Atkinson in your statement -- are 8 you okay now? Do you want to compose yourself for 9 a minute? Are you okay? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. 12 Now, in relation to Mr Atkinson in your statement of 13 10th May, you said that Allister had said to you that 14 Mr Atkinson was ringing him every day. Was that true? 15 Did Allister say that to you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know where that maybe came from? 18 A. Andrea. Andrea. 19 Q. Then there is the question about you, yourself, that 20 night in question. I think you have admitted very 21 openly in your interview you were very drunk, were you 22 not? 23 A. And I had drugs as well. 24 Q. So you were under the influence of both drink and drugs 25 that evening? 106 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, in relation to you speaking to Mr Atkinson that 3 evening, can you just tell us what you remember about 4 that? 5 A. I can't remember speaking to or seeing Robert Atkinson. 6 Q. I think your evidence this morning was it could have 7 happened? 8 A. Yes, but I can't remember it. 9 Q. You certainly don't remember the conversation which has 10 been suggested to you, that he had a whole exchange with 11 you in relation to nodding your head and suchlike? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You have no recall of that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You have no recall of speaking to a Mr Atkinson at the 16 back of the Land Rover? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No. I have to suggest to you that you are quite correct 19 in that. You see, your stepfather, Mr Jim Murray, he 20 suggested in his statement you told him that 21 Robert Atkinson spoke to you at the back -- or you spoke 22 to Robert Atkinson at the back of the Land Rover. Is 23 that correct or incorrect? 24 A. That's incorrect. I can't remember. 25 Q. That's incorrect. In relation to -- why have you 107 1 carried -- the question has been asked obliquely to you 2 today: why have you carried the burden of having told 3 these lies for so long? What do you say to that? 4 A. I don't know why I carried it. I don't know. It's been 5 awful. I didn't know what to do. 6 Q. Did a bit of you try to get on with your life and bury 7 your wrongdoing about making up this statement? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS DINSMORE: Thank you very much. 10 Questions from MR DALY 11 MR DALY: Mrs Hanvey, my name is Daly and I represent your 12 auntie, Andrea McKee. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Are you okay to continue? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, is it fair to say that the relationship with your 17 aunt and uncle, Michael and Andrea McKee, had been good 18 prior to this? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You had been on good terms with them? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You were a member of the club? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You socialised with them? 25 A. Uh-huh. 108 1 Q. You stayed over at their home? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You travelled to Lanzarote with them? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you had many conversations with your aunt? She was 6 chatty? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would it be fair to say that you in some ways regarded 9 her as an older sister? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Could I suggest to you that it was in this role, as 12 an older sister to provide you with some comfort, that 13 she arranged to go to the police station with you when 14 you made your statement in 1997? 15 A. She brought me to the police station, because she -- 16 sorry. She was like a Miss Know-it-all. She liked to 17 be in the middle of the conversations and she liked to 18 be in the middle of what I was saying to her, what I had 19 heard and what she heard at the gym. So she brought me 20 because she had a story to tell as well. 21 Q. But it was your interview. Isn't that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You were the one making the statement. It was your 24 statement? 25 A. Yes. 109 1 Q. And this was the person who had previously been kind to 2 you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Had been loving to you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Had been like an older sister to you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Her attendance at the station with you was with the 9 blessing of your parents. Isn't that right? 10 A. They had already arranged that her and Michael would 11 pick me up from work. I didn't have any consultation of 12 it until they picked me up. 13 Q. But as far as you are aware, were your parents content 14 with this arrangement? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Yet, Mrs Hanvey, during the course of this interview and 17 this statement you are saying now that your auntie 18 forced your hand and forced you to say certain things? 19 A. Whenever I spoke to my auntie about things that I had 20 heard on the town, just what I had heard, she brought 21 them up in the police station and said, you know, "Tell 22 them this. Tell them that. Tell them what you told me 23 earlier". 24 Q. You see, you are the only one that says that, 25 Mrs Hanvey. You are the only one that says that your 110 1 auntie suggested these things to you during the course 2 of your interview. 3 Is there a conspiracy against you, Mrs Hanvey? 4 A. What does that mean? 5 Q. Are your uncle and auntie, your parents and the 6 police -- were they in a conspiracy of poison against 7 you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Trying to stitch you up in some way? 10 A. No. They all -- they all talked about it and because 11 I had heard things that went on that night, they all 12 just talked about it and talked about it freely -- 13 Q. But -- 14 A. -- and heard other -- it is all hearsay. All they 15 talked about was hearsay. I never seen anything happen. 16 I never seen no fighting. 17 Q. But it was your statement. You were saying in your 18 statement what you had seen. 19 A. I -- yes, I signed this. I said I seen it. 20 Q. In your more recent statement you say that Mrs McKee put 21 certain things into your original statement. Why would 22 she have done that? 23 A. Because she didn't like Allister and she is vindictive 24 as well. 25 Q. Well, if we can just look at page [80187], please, and 111 1 just highlight paragraph 21 at the bottom, this is your 2 recent statement, Mrs Hanvey -- 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- where you say: 5 "In my statement I said, 'I remember 6 Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and Allister said that 7 Robbie Atkinson had been very good to him because on the 8 Sunday morning after the incident in the town centre he 9 rang him about 8.00 am and told him to get rid of the 10 clothes he was wearing the previous night'. I do not 11 know where this came from. I think that has come from 12 my auntie, Andrea McKee." 13 Why would Andrea McKee have said this? 14 A. I have no idea why she said it. 15 Q. No idea at all? 16 A. She -- I don't know why she said it. 17 Q. Was it possible that she didn't say it? 18 A. No. She did say it. 19 Q. Is it at all possible that it was the truth? 20 A. That Andrea said it? Andrea had said it. 21 Q. Is it at all possible that: 22 "I remember Robbie Atkinson's name coming up and 23 Allister said that Robbie Atkinson had been very good to 24 him because on the Sunday morning after the incident in 25 the town centre he rang him about 8.00 am and told him 112 1 to get rid of the clothes he was wearing the previous 2 night." 3 That was in your original statement. Is it possible 4 that that was the truth? 5 A. I don't know, because I didn't say it. It was Andrea 6 who told me to say -- who told me it. 7 Q. And yet, you have absolutely no reason as to why she 8 would have told you to say that? 9 A. She was in the room at interview with me when it was 10 said. 11 Q. Are you aware that your auntie was subsequently 12 prosecuted in court and pleaded guilty to perverting the 13 course of justice in relation to this matter? 14 A. I heard something about it, but I don't know a lot about 15 it. 16 Q. There could not possibly have been anything in it for 17 your auntie to put these words into your mouth or into 18 your statement. There couldn't possibly have been 19 anything in it for your auntie. Isn't that right? 20 A. I don't know where she got the information. I don't 21 know. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not quite the question. Can 23 I rephrase it? 24 Can you see what Andrea had to gain by putting these 25 words into your mouth and getting them in your 113 1 statement? 2 A. No. She had nothing to gain. 3 MR DALY: The person spreading poison, Mrs Hanvey, is you. 4 You are spreading poison about other people and about 5 people that have shown you nothing but love and 6 affection. 7 A. That's not true. 8 Q. You are spreading poison about police. You are 9 spreading poison about your parents, and you are 10 spreading poison about your uncle and aunt. 11 A. I know what happened that night and I know what Andrea 12 was like. She was the gossip. She was excited about 13 information. She was the one who brought me to the 14 police station. She was the one who met police in 15 a cemetery at dark time. It's -- I was just -- I just 16 was there and went along with things. 17 Q. And she was one of two people in this entire matter 18 convicted in court in relation to this? 19 A. I don't know. I don't really know anything about what 20 she was convicted of or what was said. I don't know. 21 Q. You said that you did know what happened and I suggest 22 to you, Mrs Hanvey, you did know and you did see what 23 happened on this fateful night and an accurate account 24 of that is the account you gave in your original 25 statement and to the DPP in 1997. 114 1 A. No. 2 Q. That was what actually happened. 3 A. No. That's untrue. 4 Q. Since that time, since you gave that honest and accurate 5 account on those two occasions, in the last 12 years, 6 you have been backtracking, you have been lying, and you 7 have been deceitful to try to back away at every turn 8 from your honesty in 1997. 9 A. I never seen nobody hit or kick or fight on the night in 10 question. 11 Q. Why don't you just tell the truth about this? 12 A. That is the truth. 13 Q. Think about it again. Why don't you tell the truth 14 today about it? 15 A. I didn't see anybody kick, punch or anything. I have 16 had to live with my lies until the day I die. 17 Q. You, in 1997, had two jobs. Isn't that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were working. You were working in a travel agency 20 and you were working in a restaurant. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. You knew how to deal with the public. You knew how to 23 deal with customers. Isn't that right? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Were you a sales agent in the travel agency? 115 1 A. No. 2 Q. What did you do? 3 A. I was a trainee, a trainee. 4 Q. A trainee sales agent. Is that right? 5 A. Trainee, yes, yes. 6 Q. Were you at a desk? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Dealing with the public? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In the restaurant, were you a waitress? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You knew, therefore, how to deal with situations, how to 13 deal with people, how to handle yourself in public? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Had you wanted to, you could have gone back to speak to 16 the police. You could have spoken to the coroner when 17 he spoke to you on the telephone, or you could have 18 spoken to other representatives to tell them that you 19 had lied in 1997. Couldn't you have done that? 20 A. I could have did that, but I never did. 21 Q. On numerous occasions you had the opportunity to do 22 that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Why not do it? 25 A. As I said, I don't know why I never told the truth. 116 1 MR DALY: Thank you. 2 Questions from DR McGLEENAN 3 DR McGLEENAN: Mr Chairman, my name is McGleenan and 4 I appear for Mrs Hanvey today. 5 Mrs Hanvey, can you see me? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You gave two accounts to police about the events on the 8 night in question. You have been shown today 9 a statement which you made on 10th May 1997 -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- but you mentioned another account, which was on 12 8th May -- 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. -- when you also met with Constable McAteer. Do you 15 recall that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Perhaps we could look at the document. It is at 18 [70900]. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. It is a document headed "Questionnaire". Perhaps we 21 could highlight the bottom half of it, please. This 22 document records you telling Mr McAteer your name, your 23 job as a trainee travel agent. The questionnaire is 24 completed at 8 o'clock on 8th May. It states: 25 "You have been identified as being present at 117 1 Market Street." 2 You are asked where you were coming from, "At or 3 around the time of a serious assault." 4 You say: 5 "Coming from the Coach in Banbridge," and you 6 identify a number of people who were with you. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you tell the Inquiry today that all of that is 9 accurate and truthful? 10 A. Yes, yes. 11 Q. If we can go over the page [70901] and highlight the top 12 half of that page, please, again there is a series of 13 what appear to be questions and answers. You say, 14 I believe, if I read this right: 15 "Got off Coach bus and walked up town. Saw police 16 Land Rover at the Halifax. Walked up to the 17 Mandarin House. Heard shouting coming from town centre 18 and saw two persons lying in the road at junction of 19 Thomas Street/Market Street." 20 Is that accurate? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Then on 8th May you were asked: 23 "Did you see an assault in Market Street? If so, 24 give details." 25 Your answer was, "No". Is that accurate? 118 1 A. "No", yes. 2 Q. Do you say that's a true account today? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, 48 hours later, you gave another statement, as you 5 know, to police on 10th May? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I want to ask you about the circumstances between that 8 account and the later account? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Now, on 8th May when you gave this account to 11 Constable McAteer, were you under any pressure at the 12 time from him? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Was there anyone else with you at the time? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was anything being suggested to you in terms of names? 17 A. No. I don't think so, no. 18 Q. Would you say to the Inquiry this was a voluntary 19 account on your part? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On the following day, on the day which would be 9th May, 22 you were at work. Is that right? 23 A. That's right, I think from this, yes. 24 Q. Do you recall? It appears from other documents we have 25 seen, and it has been suggested to the Inquiry, that at 119 1 some point between the 8th and the 10th you were 2 overheard saying other things in the Tae Kwon Do club. 3 Have you heard that before? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It has been said you were overheard by a policeman who 6 was a member of the club. Do you recall that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. It is suggested that the police officer's name was 9 David McCaw. Do you know that man? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you ever recall speaking openly and audibly about the 12 events on the night of 26th and 27th April? Do you 13 recall speaking openly about that in front of someone 14 who may have been a police officer in the Tae Kwon Do 15 club? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Can I ask for another document, please, at [22670]? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. That's a handwritten document. Can you see it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you seen that before? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you been able to read it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Again, it is indicated on the face of the document -- 120 1 perhaps we can just highlight the top of the front 2 page of it [22670]. It is a journal entry dated 3 27th November 2000 regarding interview with David McCaw, 4 ex-RUC Reserve. This appears to be a note of interview 5 with that police officer. 6 Now, you have been asked by Mr Daly about 7 information that might have been given by Andrea McKee 8 in relation to Robbie Atkinson making a phone call. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If we can go to [22672] -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- and if we can -- it is difficult to navigate this. 13 About halfway down the page, if we can highlight the 14 centre section, you will see the record of this 15 interview of Mr McCaw, and I am going to draw your 16 attention to five lines down there is a sentence 17 beginning: 18 "I asked him ..." 19 Do you see that if you look at the document? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. If you read down through that: 22 "I asked him to think again about what initiated the 23 conversation between Andrea and himself. Mr McCaw said 24 he couldn't remember. I asked him to think about his 25 conversation with Andrea McKee and to recollect what she 121 1 told him at that time. Mr McCaw said he remembered 2 Andrea McKee talking to him in the office and he 3 remembers being told about Robert Atkinson ringing 4 Allister Hanvey telling him to burn his clothes, but he 5 cannot remember what else was said. He said that 6 Andrea McKee may have told him something else, but he 7 couldn't remember. He does recall going to Portadown 8 station after it to speak to the D Inspector." 9 It is difficult to be sure, but this appears to have 10 happened before you were taken by Andrea McKee for the 11 second interview? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were you aware that Andrea McKee had engaged with this 14 police officer and told him these things? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did she tell you that on the way to the police station 17 whenever you were going to give your statement? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Over the page at [22672], if we could have that, you 20 will see that there is a reference -- again, if we can 21 highlight the centre section -- if you can see this, 22 I am going to try to read this to you. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. "Mr McCaw remembered going with Andrea McKee to see the 25 D Inspector and, he thinks, Johnny McAteer later that 122 1 night. He states that it was late at night but cannot 2 recall how this was arranged. He states that he doesn't 3 remember where he picked up Andrea McKee to go to the 4 meeting which he said was up at [blank] near the 5 graveyard." 6 Did Andrea McKee tell you before she took you to the 7 police interview that she had met with Johnny McAteer 8 and Mr McCaw and somebody else at a graveyard? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Now, Mrs Hanvey, one of the lines of questioning and 11 argument that has been put is that your statement on 12 10th May came about because Mr McCaw overheard you 13 talking in the gym. Are you aware of that? 14 A. Yes, yes. 15 Q. Did Ms McKee ever make it clear she had been talking to 16 Mr McCaw and had arranged a late-night meeting in 17 a graveyard the day before your police statement? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Near a graveyard. There seems to be some 19 sinister connotation which is built into meeting at 20 a graveyard, but it is quite irrelevant. But it was 21 near the graveyard. 22 DR McGLEENAN: Thank you, Chairman. 23 Turning to the day of the 10th, which may have been 24 the day after this meeting near the graveyard, is it the 25 case you were at your day job during the day, at Going 123 1 Places? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you work a full shift at Going Places that day? 4 A. It would be 9.00 to 5.00. 5 Q. Did you then go on to work in the Chinese restaurant? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What hours did you work there? 8 A. Probably from 5.00 until 11.00. It was a weekday. 9 Q. During the course of that day, were you made aware that 10 arrangements were being made to take you to the police 11 station? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Is it right that you first knew about it whenever 14 Andrea McKee arrived to take you there at 11.00 pm that 15 night? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you have any opportunity to go home, speak to your 18 mother, change your clothes? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to rest before the 21 interview? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Have a meal? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you believe that you were going there because you 124 1 had to go there or were you volunteering to go to that 2 police interview? 3 A. I had to go. 4 Q. What gave you that impression? 5 A. Because Andrea had said to me that I have to go to the 6 police, that the police wanted to speak to me. 7 Q. On the way there, is it your evidence to the Inquiry 8 that nothing was revealed about these earlier 9 discussions with Mr McCaw or the meeting? 10 A. No. 11 Q. It would appear you arrived at the police station some 12 time after 11.00 pm that night. Is that right? 11.30 13 or so? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How long do you think, if you can recall, you spent 16 being interviewed that night? 17 A. I don't know how long it was. I have no idea. 18 Q. Was it daylight when you left the following morning? 19 A. It was dark. 20 Q. Were you interviewed constantly during your time in the 21 police station or did you have any breaks or rest 22 periods? 23 A. I was just in the room all the time. 24 Q. Yes. Was Andrea McKee with you all the time? 25 A. Yes. 125 1 Q. Now, in relation to the contents of the statement which 2 you made and signed on 10th May, from your evidence to 3 the Inquiry today it would seem that you accept there is 4 a core of truth in that statement. Is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would that core of truth be the content of your 8th May 7 questionnaire response? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You still accept that to this day. Is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In addition to that, you have told the Inquiry that the 12 other material came either from police suggestions -- is 13 that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that refers to the names that were put to you. Is 16 that correct? 17 A. Uh-huh, yes. 18 Q. It came from you repeating gossip that you had heard in 19 the town. Is that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The fourth component, if I understand your evidence, is 22 information from Andrea McKee. Is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are you telling the Inquiry that she made positive 25 contributions in the course of that interview? 126 1 A. Uh-huh, yes. 2 Q. She gave information additional to what you were giving 3 to the police officers? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, as well as that, I just want you to reflect on the 6 atmosphere and the relationship between you and 7 Andrea McKee at the time. 8 Is it the case that you had repeated information to 9 her in the Tae Kwon Do club which was gossip and things 10 that you had heard in the town and you had repeated it 11 to her as if it was fact that you knew? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When you got to the police interview, is it the case 14 that she was raising some of those things which you had 15 repeated to her and that all you could do was confirm 16 what she was saying. Is that the case? 17 A. Yes. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Daly (sic), she is really, you know, your 19 witness. It is perhaps better to avoid leading her. 20 All the last half a dozen or so questions have been just 21 that. 22 DR McGLEENAN: I apologise, Chairman. It is just that the 23 witness is upset. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: It affects the value of her answers, you see. 25 DR McGLEENAN: If you can compose yourself for a moment, 127 1 Mrs Hanvey. I want you to describe, if you can, the 2 component of information -- how the information came 3 from Andrea McKee to the police in the course of that 4 interview. Describe what was happening. 5 A. When the police was saying that I had seen it and I was 6 saying that I hadn't seen it, then she was maybe saying, 7 "You told me this and that", and she was putting her oar 8 in and it was easier for me just to say, "Yes, it all 9 happened", than to say -- to contradict her or say to 10 her "No. It was just, you know, all hearsay". 11 DR McGLEENAN: Thank you. I have nothing further. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Underwood. 13 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD 14 MR UNDERWOOD: Mrs Hanvey, there are just a couple of things 15 I would like to ask you about that I hope will not be 16 too stressful. The first is the document we have looked 17 at a moment ago. It is at page [70901]. You were asked 18 about the first half of this. This is the 19 questionnaire, if you remember, that was taken on 20 8th May. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can we look at the bottom half of it and let's highlight 23 that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. At the top of it, it has a description about what you 128 1 were wearing and then a visible description of you. 2 Then it deals with the completing officer's details. It 3 sets out that that's John McAteer, Detective Constable. 4 It says there is no statement recorded. Then it goes on 5 about the party at the house. 6 What it seems to have there is people who were 7 present according to you: 8 "Tracy McAlpine ..." 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. "... Pauline Newell, Kelly Lavery, Allister Hanvey." 11 Then somebody we are calling P46: 12 "'Fonzy', Dennis [somebody] and Ian Carville." 13 Did you tell Mr McAteer those things? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you told him on 8th May, then, that Allister Hanvey 16 was at the party in the house? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know he has lied about that since? 19 A. Who? 20 Q. Allister. 21 A. Allister? 22 Q. Do you know he told us on oath he wasn't there? 23 A. No. I didn't know that. 24 Q. Right. Thank you. 25 The other matter I want to ask you about is the 129 1 McKees. You were close to Andrea you told us. Is that 2 right? Is this right, too, that, again, as you were 3 asked it, you had a room that you were able to use at 4 the McKees and you and Allister used to stay there from 5 time to time? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were you able to stay from time to time with Allister at 8 his parents' house? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did the McKees know that? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR UNDERWOOD: Okay. Thank you very much. Those are the 13 only questions I have. Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. You are free now to go. 15 A. Thank you. 16 (The witness withdrew) 17 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I dare say we need to reconfigure the 18 technology for ten minutes. 19 (3.10 pm) 20 (A short break) 21 (3.20 pm) 22 MR UNDERWOOD: Sir, I am proposing to take the remainder of 23 the day introducing some of the next session of 24 witnesses. They really break into two components: those 25 dealing with the murder investigation; and DPP's 130 1 witnesses. What I am going to do for the next half 2 an hour or so, if I may, is to deal with the murder 3 investigation side of it. 4 Before I do that, may I point out that I am now ably 5 assisted by Ms Yates instead of Miss Anderson, who, as 6 I hope everybody now knows, has had a baby. Ms Yates 7 will be with us for the remainder of the evidence at 8 least. 9 The obvious difficulty that the Panel faces in 10 dealing with the murder investigation is the very 11 regrettable death of Mr McBurney, who, as a result, 12 obviously is going to be unable to explain the basis 13 upon which a number of his decisions were taken. 14 What I am going to do as a very poor second best is 15 to play the transcript of the interview that the Inquiry 16 held with him. That's a tape that runs to six and 17 a half hours or so elapsed time, but what it does do is 18 enable you to hear him in his own voice deal with very 19 many of the issues that were very perceptively put to 20 him by the interviewing team as part of the 21 consideration for putting together a witness statement 22 for him. I hope that's going to be rather a lot better 23 than merely looking at a transcript of it, or, indeed, 24 just looking at his witness statement. 25 I am hoping we are going to be able to get that 131 1 played in the bulk tomorrow, and then, unhappily, there 2 will have to be a break while we interpose some 3 witnesses, but certainly that it is all played over the 4 course of this week. 5 What we will do while that's being played is have on 6 the screen simultaneously the transcript of it, because, 7 of course, it was not particularly sophisticated 8 recording equipment and it is not an entirely perfect 9 recording, but the transcription is reliable, so I hope, 10 with the aid of the transcription, it will be possible 11 to follow the whole thing. 12 There is clearly an issue about Mr McBurney. Now 13 that his investigative decisions can be viewed in the 14 round and viewed with the aid of hindsight that we have, 15 it could be argued, and I am not suggesting for the 16 moment that I am arguing it, that they were designed to 17 protect Robert Atkinson. It is right to be fair and 18 say, on the other hand, that there is quite a lot to be 19 said for Mr McBurney not doing that. 20 Firstly, he made absolutely no secret of the 21 allegation that Mr Atkinson had tipped off 22 Allister Hanvey. He told the ICPC. He told the DPP and 23 he told the chief constable, as it now transpires, 24 within days of Tracey Clarke making that allegation. 25 Complaints and Discipline officers, who, of course, 132 1 would eventually be seized of that matter, were part of 2 the murder investigation team, or, rather, part of the 3 investigation team of the neglect complaint. Of course, 4 they knew of the allegation themselves. 5 It is also fair to say that insofar as the ICPC, 6 Complaints and Discipline or even the DPP office fell 7 down at any point in relation to the investigation, 8 that, of course, you might reasonably say was their 9 responsibility and not his. We are unable to unpick, 10 I suspect, what intimate dealings there may have been 11 between, for example, Mr Murnaghan and Mr McBurney which 12 might have led to the ICPC keeping out of this. 13 It is also fair to say, contrary perhaps to what 14 Miss Clarke told you today, that Mr McBurney plainly 15 took steps to reassure her as a witness and to keep her 16 onside by, as we will see, attempting to assist her get 17 jobs out of the area and so forth 18 THE CHAIRMAN: That's spoken to as well by P69, isn't it? 19 MR UNDERWOOD: It is certainly spoken to by P39. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: P39. 21 MR UNDERWOOD: It is only fair to say that all the 22 advantages that hindsight can give us, which may tend to 23 suggest that Mr McBurney was up to something, could just 24 be a false, sinister gloss and a false, sinister gloss 25 on what was, in fact, a string of unremarkable decisions 133 1 when looked at one by one. There is a stark issue about 2 it, and it is only right I point out at this stage where 3 that issue might take you. 4 With that cautionary note, what I want to do is turn 5 to what could be said against Mr McBurney, so that, when 6 you hear his transcript, you can consider in the light 7 of it what his answers are. 8 The starting point is, as we now know, the 9 allegation of the tip-off was treated as part of the 10 neglect investigation. That was by no means inevitable. 11 We are beginning to hear evidence from senior police 12 officers that they would have expected that the 13 allegation of the tip-off was in essence an allegation 14 that Mr Atkinson was an accessory to the murder, and 15 that, therefore, it ought to have been dealt with as 16 a component of the murder investigation whether or not 17 it was sent up to the DPP in the same file. But it may 18 appear odd that it was dealt with as part of the 19 neglect. All the more so, it may be said, because the 20 author of the neglect complaint, which is, of course, 21 Rosemary Nelson on behalf of the Hamill family, was 22 never told that neglect complaint was enlarged to cover 23 this tip-off and, indeed, was never told there was such 24 a tip-off. 25 It may be thought that by separating the tip-off 134 1 allegation from the murder investigation, it became 2 possible for the tip-off allegation to be downplayed, 3 when, in fact, the murder investigation was a matter of 4 quite high profile, and that, therefore, the degree of 5 supervision that that high profile investigation might 6 receive was then shifted off the tip-off. 7 The next stage in what could be a criticism of 8 Mr McBurney then turns to the quality of the search of 9 Allister Hanvey's home on 10th May. Clearly, the reason 10 why that search was conducted and Mr Hanvey was arrested 11 was the witness statement made by Tracey Clarke, albeit 12 there was a similar statement from Timothy Jameson at 13 the same time. Of course, Tracey Clarke's statement in 14 respect of Allister Hanvey contained the two discrete 15 allegations: firstly, that he was party to the kicking; 16 and, secondly, that he was party to the tip-off to 17 destroy his clothes. 18 Now we know, because it makes sense, and also 19 because we have seen the records of the other searches, 20 that naturally enough, if you are searching somebody's 21 home for clothing, let alone if you were searching 22 somebody's home for clothing when there is an allegation 23 that they might have destroyed it, you would be on the 24 look-out for all sorts of things. You might be on the 25 look-out for more than one set of clothes for a start. 135 1 You might be on the look-out for burnt clothes and the 2 like. 3 Remarkably, we know this search, and only this 4 search, was truncated, one set of clothes being found. 5 You have already heard from the searchers and from the 6 Detective Constable, DC McAteer, who was with them. 7 DC McAteer says he was there to effect the arrest. The 8 searchers say he was there to tell them what to take or 9 what not to take. There is no credible explanation, 10 I would respectfully suggest, yet before you about why 11 it is they stopped short. 12 Again, this is one of those things that it may well 13 be that Mr McBurney could properly say about, "Not me. 14 I didn't conduct the search. I didn't direct the 15 search". Mr Irwin directed the search. Of course, we 16 will hear from Mr Irwin and that's one of the matters we 17 will hear about. 18 Then we come to the ICPC. It is not yet clear how 19 it was the ICPC became involved at all. Again, we will 20 hear some more evidence about that in this session. 21 There are two contenders for this: the first is that the 22 Chief Constable alerted by the importance of this murder 23 investigation self-referred the neglect complaint to the 24 ICPC; the second is, of course, the Rosemary Nelson 25 complaint. 136 1 Is looks so far as if both of those things, in fact, 2 obtained, but the self-referral came up first. It was 3 simply overtaken by the complaint. 4 It seems from the evidence we have heard so far that 5 the ICPC, although it did not have power to self-refer, 6 could have raised the tip-off allegation to the chief 7 constable or one of his officers and that the chief 8 constable or a senior officer would then have referred 9 it under the order, and, had they done so, that the ICPC 10 would then have supervised. 11 You are going to hear from ACC Hall to the effect 12 that he very firmly brought the matter to the attention 13 of Mr Murnaghan of the ICPC and was completely satisfied 14 that Mr Murnaghan would, in fact, have supervised. We 15 know it didn't happen. We don't know why. We don't 16 have Mr Murnaghan because he, too, sadly, has died. 17 It is possible, and I can put it no more than that, 18 that he raised the matter with Mr McBurney, and between 19 the two of them there was an agreement it would not be 20 supervised. How this comes out of the evidence we have 21 yet to see, because we will press ACC Hall and others 22 about it as much as possible, but at this stage it is 23 an open question. 24 Then one comes to the Complaints and Discipline 25 officers. Again, you have heard one of those already. 137 1 Their sole purpose, so far as one can tell, in being 2 involved in the neglect complaint was to ensure that, 3 once the pure criminal side of it had been dealt with 4 and it became a pure disciplinary matter, that nothing 5 that could have happened in the criminal side could 6 prejudice the use of evidence, or indeed prejudice 7 anyone, in the pure disciplinary side of it. 8 At the absolute least, that would have entailed the 9 service of the Form 17(3) caution prior to Mr Atkinson 10 being interviewed about the tip-off allegation. 11 Complaints and Discipline did not even manage that. In 12 fact, presently on the evidence it is difficult to see 13 what on earth was the purpose of the Complaints and 14 Discipline involvement in this. They kept so much of 15 a back seat that they were not even in view of the 16 wind-screen. 17 Again, the question must arise: why is that? Were 18 they just incompetent? Was there some direction -- was 19 there an agreement they were going to keep back? 20 What is clear is, once Mr Atkinson was eventually 21 taxed with the tip-off allegation in September 1997, 22 without the benefit of a Form 17(3) being served on him 23 for this, that presumably would have made inadmissible 24 anything he said under that interview in any subsequent 25 disciplinary proceedings. It is difficult to imagine 138 1 how that position could have come about. 2 You will also see that the chief constable appears 3 to have had a fairly robust approach to what he regarded 4 as errant officers. You will see a document that deals 5 with a conversation between him and the 6 Permanent Secretary of the relevant department in which 7 they discussed the tip-off against Mr Atkinson and 8 discussed in particular the want of admissible evidence 9 against Mr Atkinson of any wrongdoing, in which the 10 chief constable made it plain that he had sacked 11 officers for less and simply taken the financial 12 consequences, because he would rather have to pay 13 compensation than have a bent officer on his force. 14 Yet it appears that, on 12th May 1997, he was told 15 of the allegation. We get that from ACC Hall, who has 16 managed to retrieve a journal entry showing the 17 conversation specifically about this between him and the 18 chief constable, and another point on that: the question 19 of suspension obviously would have struck people's minds 20 in May 1997, when this tip-off allegation was made. 21 Naturally, service of the Form 17(3) and suspension 22 are matters which could easily have prejudiced 23 an investigation. One can easily have imagine why, if 24 you are looking at an officer, you might not want to tip 25 him off about matters until you have something of a case 139 1 about him. It is entirely credible that some senior 2 officers would not have suspended and would not have 3 served a Form 17(3) until they had collected evidence 4 about Mr Atkinson. 5 As far as one can tell, there was not even 6 consideration of suspending Mr Atkinson, certainly down 7 to the point when he was interviewed in September and 8 October 1997. Again, that's something that Mr McBurney 9 could usefully have been asked about. 10 Coming back then to the way in which the allegation 11 was treated as a matter of record, I said that, on the 12 evidence, senior officers would have expected the 13 tip-off allegation to form part of the murder rather 14 than the neglect, irrespective of how many files went up 15 to the DPP. 16 Again, one needs to consider this: that, when the 17 DPP did eventually get a murder file, it made it clear 18 that there would be a further file dealing with the 19 Atkinson allegation, and yet the DPP was asked to get on 20 and consider the murder, absent that. Indeed, they did. 21 That's precisely what happened. By the time the crime 22 file -- the murder crime file had been given to the DPP, 23 Mr Atkinson had not even been interviewed about the 24 tip-off allegation. 25 You may wonder whether the failure to interview him 140 1 by then was a deliberate decision made so as to put the 2 DPP in the difficult position of having to make a murder 3 or set a murder prosecutorial decision in the absence of 4 knowing about what was going on with Mr Atkinson. 5 Again, in relation to the formulation of a case 6 against Mr Atkinson, there was a remarkable change of 7 gear about obtaining the telephone records. It was 8 regarded as a matter of the greatest urgency to get the 9 records to see whether he had, in fact, made a telephone 10 call on 27th April to the Hanvey household, and as soon 11 as the tip-off allegation was even known about, on 12 9th May, before Tracey Clarke even signed off her 13 statement, the request went out for the telephone calls' 14 records. The best we can do is identify a date of 15 16th May, by which time they came in. 16 It was done with such urgency as to be done in 17 manuscript before the witness statement was taken and 18 was responded to very quickly, 16th May. Nothing, 19 absolutely nothing, was then done until 9th September, 20 when Mr Atkinson was rather laconically interviewed 21 about it, and that despite the fact, of course, that 22 those records did, to this extent, corroborate the 23 allegation, in that they showed there was a telephone 24 call at 8.37 or so from the Atkinson household to the 25 Hanvey household. 141 1 Then you have DI Irwin taking what I continually 2 refer to as a "false alibi statement" -- that's not 3 strictly the proper use of the word "alibi", 4 I suspect -- from Andrea McKee. It is very difficult to 5 know whether, in October 1997, Andrea McKee might have 6 broken down, had Michael Irwin said to her, "Look, you 7 are telling me a pack of lies, because when you brought 8 your niece in and you sat there in the interview, you 9 didn't lift a finger when she said, 'That phone call was 10 made by Robbie Atkinson to Hanvey, not by you or your 11 husband'." 12 It is one of those inextricable links in this 13 Inquiry that is very difficult to disentangle. 14 Presumably at some point you are going to have to make 15 decisions about whether Tracey Clarke is or was telling 16 the truth in her witness statement in the first place or 17 whether Andrea McKee was the author of all that, but 18 even taking what Mrs Hanvey, as she now is, says at face 19 value, that it was Andrea McKee who made the tip-off 20 allegation to the police in May 1997, then it is even 21 more extraordinary that DI Irwin, who had received that 22 tip-off allegation from her at the infamous near 23 graveyard meeting, should then have taken what, in 24 effect, was the opposite statement from her in 25 October 1997. 142 1 Again, that's a matter that Mr Irwin is going to 2 have to deal with. As I understand it, he is 3 essentially going to be saying, "I was only following 4 orders from Mr McBurney". Whether or not that's 5 a sufficient answer is one question, but if it is 6 an answer which you believe, then, of course, it raises 7 the question: what was Mr McBurney doing? 8 There is then the neglect file that does eventually 9 get to the DPP about the tip-off. May I take you to 10 that? It is at page [09079] in its relevant part. 11 If we pick it up at the bottom, paragraph 124: 12 "In addition to the Hamill complaint of inactivity 13 is an allegation based on hearsay and contained in the 14 statement of Witness A." 15 He then sets out the passage in the statement. If 16 we go over the page to [09080], he perfectly fairly sets 17 it out. If we then look at paragraph 125, what 18 Mr McBurney said is: 19 "This aspect of Witness A's statement cannot be 20 taken lightly and in many respects has a ring of truth 21 to it. Consequently, this complaint in its entirety was 22 taken seriously and every effort was made to prove or 23 disprove its authenticity." 24 This is not holy writ, and I don't propose to invite 25 to you construe it as if every word was, as it were, in 143 1 stone, but the impression being given there, that, "this 2 complaint in its entirety was taken seriously and every 3 effort was made to prove or disprove its authenticity", 4 is woefully misleading. No effort whatever was taken to 5 prove or disprove its authenticity so far as one can 6 tell. 7 As I say, apart from the telephone records being 8 sought, and they were sought before that witness 9 statement was made, nothing was done by way of 10 interviewing Atkinson for four months. Tracey Clarke 11 was never re-interviewed about the clothing, etc. All 12 manner of steps that we now know were capable of being 13 taken and were, in fact, taken by DCI K and his team in 14 2001 were manifestly available in 1997, but were not 15 taken. This, as I understand it, was drafted by 16 DI Irwin, I should say, so, again, that's something he 17 might be usefully asked about. 18 If we then go to paragraph 126: 19 "It was established at an early stage of the 20 investigation that Allister Hanvey was in the vicinity 21 of Market Street during the confrontation in question, 22 although he was not recorded as a suspect. He was 23 interviewed by police on 7 May 1997 in which a witness 24 statement was recorded. Nothing of an evidential nature 25 was gleaned, but he did outline what he was wearing on 144 1 the date in question." 2 Now, I don't want to make a great point of this, but 3 the impression that gives is he told the truth in his 4 statement of 7th May about what he was wearing on the 5 night in question. That then leads neatly into the way 6 this unravels. If we go to paragraph 127 and 128: 7 "127. On 10th May 1997, Allister Hanvey was 8 arrested and conveyed to Lurgan Station. During 9 interview he denied involvement in the incident and also 10 denied wearing clothes as alleged by Jonathan Wright." 11 There is a reference: 12 "A search of his house on this date recovered 13 clothing as previously outlined in his witness 14 statement." 15 Well, absolutely accurate, but, of course, 16 self-fulfilling. What it doesn't say is, "All we 17 bothered searching for was what he told us he was 18 wearing on the night and we didn't bother searching for 19 anything else." 20 Then: 21 "On 11th May 1997, Thomas Mervyn Hanvey, an uncle of 22 Allister Hanvey, was interviewed by police." 23 It gives the reference: 24 "His statement incorporates the fact that 25 Allister Hanvey had arrived in the early hours of the 145 1 morning of 10th May and stayed the remainder of the 2 night." 3 Now, what that doesn't say is what we have just 4 heard from Mrs Hanvey; that on the contrary she had told 5 police on 8th May that Hanvey was at the party. The 6 police were always in possession of the information, but 7 that was a false alibi. This doesn't mention that. 8 There was no step taken to chase up the false alibi. We 9 also now know, because of the efforts by DCI K in 2000 10 and 2001, that Hanvey was at that party until 5 o'clock 11 or 6 o'clock in the morning, because when DCI K 12 administered a further set of questionnaires to 13 party-goers, that revealed two or three people who said 14 they were with him and left with him at 5 o'clock or 15 6 o'clock in the morning and went to a cash point. 16 Then what DCI K did was go and check the cash point 17 records and find out that Hanvey had taken -- I can't 18 remember what it was; £10 or so -- out of a cash point 19 in the middle of town at 6 o'clock or so that morning. 20 So a false alibi, or at least the information before 21 you, is unequivocally to the effect that was a false 22 alibi, and the police either had that information in the 23 shape of Tracey Clarke's QPF of 8th May or could and 24 should have had that information in the shape of what 25 DCI K uncovered in 2000 or 2001. To say that every 146 1 effort had been taken to prove or disprove what 2 Tracey Clarke had said is, you may think, very 3 misleading. 4 If we go over the page, [09081], paragraph 131: 5 "However, Jonathan Wright's description of clothing 6 was an aspect that caused serious concern. It was 7 essential to eliminate or prove to the best of our 8 ability that the clothing either did or did not exist in 9 order to either corroborate Jonathan Wright's and 10 possibly Witness A's allegation. Although a crucial 11 issue and imperative from the point of view of the 12 overall allegation, the truth could not be established." 13 Well, it didn't take DCI K very long to discover, in 14 fact, it was Tracey Clarke who bought the jacket, or so 15 he was told. The materials we have seen today include 16 the statement from Tracey Clarke's mother and stepfather 17 to the effect that there was a silver jacket, that she 18 was upset about the silver jacket being destroyed, and 19 that DCI K's team managed to find that wholesale 20 document which illustrated a silver jacket, which he was 21 able to show to the Tracey Clarke parents. 22 Again, if it was essential to eliminate or prove to 23 the best of their ability the clothing either did or did 24 not exist and imperative to establish it, one might have 25 thought that those further steps could have been taken 147 1 in 1997 rather than in 2000 and 2001. 2 If we go over the page to [09082], at paragraph 133: 3 "When interviewed about this particular aspect, 4 Robert Atkinson emphatically denied the allegation and 5 in consequence was asked to produce his telephone 6 account for that particular period. The subsequent 7 interview revealed contact on two occasions, namely 8 27th April and 2nd May 1997 between the Atkinson and 9 Hanvey homes. Again, Robert Atkinson denied knowledge 10 of the phone calls and suggested that his wife was in 11 a position to answer the queries." 12 Query the word "revealed" there. The use of the 13 word "revealed" there makes it look as if, until that 14 interview in September 1997, the police had no idea 15 whether the telephone records did say that. What that 16 interview actually did by way of provision of the 17 telephone accounts was confirm what they had already 18 known on 16th May. 19 If we go then down to paragraph 135: 20 "Immediately after this interview, Michael McKee was 21 interviewed and a witness statement recorded in which he 22 accepts having made the phone call on 27th April 1997 23 and gives his reasons for doing so. At a later stage, 24 a witness statement was recorded from Michael McKee's 25 wife, Andrea, which also supported his version of 148 1 events. The parents of Allister Hanvey, [blank], and 2 Elizabeth were interviewed and although they declined to 3 make written statements, confirmed having received for 4 the reasons stated the two telephone calls in question. 5 The interview also revealed considerable animosity 6 towards Robert Atkinson by Trevor Hanvey to his duties 7 as a police officer. Having found no evidence other 8 than the telephone billing to substantiate the 9 allegation of Witness A, one can remain sceptical, but 10 there is absolutely no other evidence to substantiate 11 the allegation by Witness A. I therefore recommend 'no 12 prosecution'." 13 Well, it is true to say, as that final sentence or 14 so does say, that no other evidence was found to 15 substantiate the allegation of Tracey Clarke. That 16 rather begs the question: were they looking? The 17 elephant in the room, so far as this paragraph is 18 concerned, is that earlier sentence: 19 "At a later stage a witness statement was recorded 20 from Michael McKee's wife, Andrea, which also supported 21 his version of events." 22 One might have thought it might be prudent to put in 23 there "and she was lying, as we knew when we took it", 24 because the drift, as it were, of this paragraph is, 25 "Well, we did everything we could. All you have is 149 1 Tracey Clarke. Yes, we would like to believe her, but 2 there is nothing we can do about it". To hide the fact 3 that a statement was taken which was believed to be 4 false as part of this alibi, if I can keep using that 5 word, is unfortunate to say the least. 6 So that's that crime file. What then happened, as 7 we now know, from ACC White, was the crime files were 8 checked, but that, not unnaturally, the limitation on 9 the checking process was contained in the crime files 10 themselves. All you could do was have trust in the 11 person compiling them and cross-check between, as it 12 were, the contents of the statements in the files and 13 the summary of those statements in the files. 14 So, for example, where this file says that the 15 telephone records revealed in September 1997 that there 16 was contact, it wasn't possible to check that against 17 the revelation contained in 16th May to the same effect, 18 because the 16th May information wasn't contained in the 19 file. So the selectivity of what goes into a crime file 20 there makes it impossible to check on it. 21 As I say, it is entirely possible to build a case in 22 hindsight based on what we now know and to inject quite 23 a lot of criticism into any analysis of this crime file, 24 and whether or not at the end it is right to do so is 25 obviously, of course, an important matter for you. 150 1 The one other thing I would say about this at this 2 stage is, if Mr McBurney wished to protect Mr Atkinson 3 for whatever reason, he was in a cleft stick, because, 4 on the one hand, he had Tracey Clarke's witness 5 statement, which named, apparently, murderers, and this 6 was a high profile, a very important case, and obviously 7 he had to be seen to be doing something, and that, of 8 course, involved arresting and detaining those she made 9 allegations against, but if he was then to pursue the 10 case against them with great vigour, then 11 notwithstanding that he separated the allegation of the 12 tip-off from the murder allegation, he still has one 13 witness who deals with both, and if he is vigorously 14 prosecuting the alleged murderers, he at some point has 15 to face the fact that his prime witness is also making 16 a serious allegation against one of his police officers. 17 It is a point we will come back to, because it caused 18 grave difficulties for the DPP when they prosecuted 19 Hobson and put Mr Atkinson forward as a witness of 20 truth, despite all this going on at the same time, but 21 I will come back to that in due course. 22 The difficulty for Mr McBurney is clear there, and 23 a dilemma of that sort may go some way to explaining 24 some otherwise inexplicable decisions. 25 The first is, having got Tracey Clarke and 151 1 Timothy Jameson to name names, it was obvious, I would 2 respectfully suggest, in Portadown, 1997, that any 3 police officer was going to realise he may face 4 difficulties getting those witnesses to court. You may 5 have thought that any respectable policeman in charge of 6 a murder like this in those days would therefore have 7 made efforts to bolster the case. 8 One of the things they could have done was to get 9 identity parades going or confrontations. 10 A confrontation was, in fact, held, as we know, between 11 one of the police officers, PC Neill, and Hobson. No 12 other witness seems to have been asked, as far as we can 13 tell, to attend identity or confrontation exercises. 14 Secondly, as I have said, although Miss Clarke is 15 the author of the tip-off allegation, nothing further 16 was done with her about that. She was not even asked 17 when she was in consultation with the DPP. Everybody 18 believed her. They believed her to the extent they were 19 content to keep people in custody principally on her 20 say-so, and yet one might have thought that the first 21 thing to do would be to go back and say, "Tell us more 22 about this tip-off". 23 Then there is the very curious business of the way 24 in which Marc Hobson was prosecuted, because, as I say, 25 there is the difficulty that, when Hobson was 152 1 prosecuted, it was done on police evidence. PC Neill 2 was the principal witness against him, but it was known 3 that there was an issue about whether, in fact, PC Neill 4 could have seen what he said he saw, because there was 5 an argument that the police had not got out of the 6 Land Rover in time and his evidence was unreliable. 7 So there was a trawl for other police evidence. 8 There, of course, were four officers in the Land Rover. 9 The only other one who was called against Hobson was 10 Atkinson. He was obviously advanced as a witness of 11 truth at a stage when this tip-off allegation had still 12 not been resolved. There was a crime file in relation 13 to it, which we have just looked at, that had not yet 14 been determined. There was an application for 15 disclosure of materials by the defence team, which 16 resulted in the version of Tracey Clarke's statement 17 that we have already seen being served on the defence 18 team, but with the allegation that it was Atkinson that 19 had tipped off Hanvey taken out of it. 20 So the curious position was advanced to the judge 21 that Atkinson was advanced as a witness of truth when 22 there was an outstanding crime file about a tip-off 23 about what he saw on the night, and that the witness 24 statement which was disclosed had that removed. You 25 might have thought some cross-examination might have 153 1 been directed to him on that point if the full statement 2 had been made available to the defence team. To be 3 fair -- 4 THE CHAIRMAN: The issue of disclosure is not restricted to 5 admissible evidence. It can include evidence which, 6 though not admissible, may put someone on the right 7 line in a cross-examination. 8 MR UNDERWOOD: The key test. To be fair to the DPP, the 9 interview in which the tip-off allegation was very 10 loosely put to Atkinson was disclosed, but Tracey Clarke 11 was not disclosed in it as the source and neither was 12 any particular given in it. So the thrust of it was, as 13 it were, made the subject of an alert, but you didn't 14 have the fact that it was Tracey Clarke, as I say, upon 15 whose word those five people had been detained for six 16 months or so that had made the allegation. 17 So again, we have to try to get to the bottom of 18 that, and we will call the officer responsible for the 19 redaction policy at the DPP to discuss that, but, again, 20 it is difficult at this remove to know whether the 21 police had anything to do with it. It may have been 22 a DPP decision. There may have been a good reason for 23 it, but on the face of it, it is something which shows 24 an overlap between what might have been -- and I put it 25 at its highest -- a desire to protect Atkinson for some 154 1 reason, and, as a consequence, an unwillingness to wound 2 in relation to the murder charges. 3 There is also -- I will leave it at that. As I say, 4 it is only fair that Mr McBurney, as best he can in his 5 own words, have his account given to you. As I say, it 6 is very easy to use hindsight to put together elements 7 of what could be a case, and, as I say, it may be 8 entirely fortuitous that these things happened and can 9 be strung together. 10 With that, what I am going to invite you to do is 11 break. We do have two witnesses that need to be fitted 12 in tomorrow, but, otherwise, I hope we can listen to the 13 majority of the tape 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 15 MR UNDERWOOD: May I invite you to sit at 10 o'clock? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: So be it. Which witnesses are these? 17 MR UNDERWOOD: We are going to hear William McCreesh and 18 ACC Hall. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 20 (4.12 pm) 21 (The hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning) 22 23 --ooOoo-- 24 25 155 1 I N D E X 2 3 MRS TRACEY HANVEY [nee CLARKE] ................... 2 4 (called) Questions from MR UNDERWOOD ............... 2 5 Questions from MR ADAIR ................... 58 Questions from MR McGRORY ................ 86 6 Questions from MS DINSMORE ................ 99 Questions from MR DALY .................... 108 7 Questions from DR McGLEENAN ............... 117 Further questions from MR UNDERWOOD ....... 128 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156